The Navy's Last Hope: New Corvette Will Save Surface Forces and the Country

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The Navy's Last Hope: New Corvette Will Save Surface Forces and the Country
A multi-purpose (with anti-submarine capabilities) small corvette based on the Karakurt missile ship could prove to be a lifesaver for fleet, but the project needs to get going.


On "Army-2024" showed a ship that could become the salvation of the Navy's surface forces. We are talking about the ship of Project 22800E "Karakurt-E". The ship is a highly specialized strike ship with a missile weapons became multi-purpose, capable of fighting submarines, while maintaining all the combat capabilities of the Karakurt missile ship.



Of course, this is just a project.

But it could become a salvation for the surface forces of our fleet. Especially considering the blow that domestic shipbuilding has received from sanctions, and the fact that the protracted war in Ukraine demands an increase in spending on the Ground Forces and Aviation, which means a reduction in fleet costs.

But this ship needs to be built for the Russian Navy as well. With a number of changes.
And preferably faster, so that it doesn’t turn out to be too late.

Anti-submarine warfare and nuclear deterrence, a refresher


The theoretical basis for how the ability of surface forces to fight submarines affects a country's ability to ensure nuclear deterrence was revealed by the author in a theoretical article Anti-submarine ships and nuclear deterrence.
At that time, it was still possible to build ships of Project 20380 and its modifications, and today the recommendations from the article are no longer relevant, but what is relevant is why there is no and cannot be effective nuclear deterrence without surface anti-submarine forces.

Everything is explained in the link, here is a quote:

…Russia has a fully-fledged nuclear triad of land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), both mobile and silo-based, strategic bombers carrying nuclear weapons, and strategic missile submarines armed with ballistic missiles. At the same time, each branch of the triad has its own, not entirely identical, strengths.

Thus, aviation has the advantage over all other forces that are part of the strategic nuclear forces (SNF) that, firstly, it can be retargeted in flight (when working with nuclear bombs), and secondly, its low speed gives politicians time to stop nuclear escalation...

Aviation, when at the proper level of combat readiness, makes retaliation flexible and manageable. The aircraft, however, are very vulnerable, and the slightest delay or error in their emergency dispersal will result in their loss...

ICBMs are the basis for both preemptive and retaliatory strikes.

ICBMs make it possible to destroy part of the enemy's nuclear forces that were not used in the first attack, and to inflict great damage on the enemy due to the large number of warheads being thrown.

ICBMs make retaliation devastating in force and swift.

However, contrary to popular belief, ICBMs are not invulnerable and have a certain vulnerability to a sudden disarming nuclear strike.

And here the third component of the triad appears on the scene – the RPLSN…

The submarine is mobile and even at its slowest speed – 6–7 knots – it can travel 260–310 kilometers in any direction in a day…

The enemy, before preparing to launch a nuclear strike, will in any case have to deploy large groups of heterogeneous anti-submarine forces to neutralize the SSBN, and this is an intelligence sign of preparation for aggression, which deprives the enemy of surprise.

If the enemy succeeds in everything except destroying all SSBNs before they launch missiles, but at least one boat manages to complete its combat mission, then this will negate all other successes of the enemy - he may have time to deliver an unpunished disarming strike, neutralize almost all of our strategic nuclear forces, achieve any success on the ground and in the air, but that very last surviving boat will still cause him unacceptable damage.

RPLSNs make retaliation inevitable.

But, as the link rightly points out, in order for submarines to leave their bases and safely move to designated areas, their deployment must be supported by anti-submarine forces, whose tasks include detecting foreign submarines and either destroying them with their own weapons or directing other forces (for example, anti-submarine aircraft) to them.

And here the inevitability of our retaliatory strike gets knocked out - we have nothing to provide for the combat services of submarines.

To understand the depth of the bottom where the Russian Navy currently finds itself, a few words about anti-submarine warfare.

Much has been written about how submarine searches are currently conducted, in particular in the articles of M. Klimov Anti-submarine defense: ships against submarines. Hydroacoustics" и "Find the submarine!", A. Timokhina and M. Klimova "There is no more secrecy: submarines of the usual kind are doomed".

What all these materials have in common is the statement that our submarines are doomed because the enemy has powerful anti-submarine defense, built, among other things, on the broadest use of surface ships. Ours, not Western ones, because we simply do not have any organized anti-submarine defense (ASD).

It is the enemy who can reveal the underwater situation over many thousands of square kilometers, not us.

Here is a brief description of the anti-submarine search methods of modern Western fleets, a quote from one of the mentioned articles:

"A single surface ship with a GPBA and a low-frequency emitter (lower power), as well as a pair of anti-submarine helicopters, is capable of completely "illuminating" a strip many tens of kilometers wide. And if a submarine is in it, it will be immediately detected at any noise level...

But this is its own GPBA. "Illuminated boat" gives a secondary wave in all sides - and if on the opposite side from the hunter ship there is some tactical unit capable of detecting the reflected wave (a submarine or a helicopter), then the width of the strip in which any underwater target is detected turns from tens of kilometers into hundreds."

If non-acoustic search methods (radar detection of a submarine's surface trace) have found wide application in aviation, along with acoustic ones, then for surface ships the main thing is to work with a towed sonar, with or without a gas-propelled aerial vehicle.

Now let's move on to what Russia has. The answer is very simple - nothing.

We have nuclear submarines in the Northern Fleet and Kamchatka, new corvettes of Projects 20380 and 20385 – in the Baltic and Vladivostok. Small anti-submarine ships of Project 1124M have not only lost their combat value at the moment – ​​it is simply dangerous to go to sea on them. However, most of them do not go to sea.

The remaining frigates are Project 22350 and BPK Project 1155 (including modifications 1155.1 and "Shaposhnikov"). These ships are simply few in number, in the north we can theoretically concentrate 2 frigates and 3 BPK, and it is not known how they will cooperate.

The problem is that we still need at least some kind of force in the distant sea zone, and large ships are needed there.

The same picture is in the Pacific Ocean: a missile cruiser, 3 large anti-submarine ships and 4 corvettes – that’s all we have for the DMZ; these forces are not enough for Kamchatka and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk.

And even when another large anti-submarine ship, the Admiral Vinogradov, comes out of repairs and modernization as a frigate, there will still not be enough ships.

Now everything is complicated by the fact that the ships are on long voyages, and our small forces are scattered across the entire planet.

As a result, the Russian Navy does not control the underwater situation off its shores at all. And does not provide for the deployment of strategic submarines. In wartime or immediately before it, they will be easily destroyed. A retaliatory nuclear strike will be impossible.

And the possibility of receiving a massive nuclear strike without response is real.

And this is not a figure of speech, this is what is said deployment of US SSBNs for a strike in May-June 2023.

Water area protection and ships of the near sea zone


Water area protection (WARP) is an organization within a naval base designed to provide the main forces of the fleet in its base areas with protection from enemy actions from the sea.

The Soviet Navy had more than enough naval bases, and these bases had security.

What was the main striking means of the probable enemy – the USA – in the naval war? Deck aviation and submarines.

But to oversleep an aircraft carrier group, you have to try really hard; during the entire Cold War, this only happened once, but American submarines were always nearby.

Nuclear submarines were considered the main striking force of the USSR Navy. The main threat to them near our shores were NATO submarines, which could lay mines on the routes of our submarines or secretly reach the range of a torpedo attack.

It was the OVR forces, brought together into brigades, that, among other things, were charged with preventing such actions on the part of the enemy.

The OVR brigades usually included a division (4–8 units) of small anti-submarine ships (SAS) and a division of minesweepers.

Based on the experience of the Cold War, one or two MPCs were always ready to immediately go to sea to search for a foreign submarine. Anti-submarine search operations were systematically carried out to prevent the enemy from tracking our submarines.

The OVR brigades, operating in full force, could ensure that nuclear submarines could safely leave their bases and escape potential enemy surveillance.
As stated above, nothing remained of these forces.


MPK "Koreets" of the Pacific Fleet. A symbolic photo can be a symbol of the state of the OVR. And if rust can be painted over, then non-working and unrepairable ship systems, turbines that cannot start, muffled shaft lines and leaking hulls cannot be fixed so easily. As well as the general obsolescence of the ship. Photo: Japan Self-Defense Forces, from forums.airbase.ru, apple 17

At the same time, the fleet had more than one chance to renew its anti-submarine forces.

The first was Project 20380, in the form in which it was originally conceived - all systems are strictly serial, there is only one experimental design development - the Main Power Plant (the same units with Kolomna 16D49 diesel engines).

However, the project was overcomplicated with a mass of new weapons systems, it became very expensive and difficult to build, and did not become widespread, and now the construction of these ships will apparently be impossible due to sanctions (and this will be another incredible surprise for our so-called “decision makers”, which everyone except them knew about for many years in advance).

The second program, which could have updated the anti-submarine forces and restored a full-fledged OVR, was the program to create an OVR corvette. Unfortunately, it died almost before it began.

The OVR corvette project was at one time sacrificed for the Project 22160 patrol ships – the most useless ships in the stories fleet. The war in Ukraine showed their worth, when in order to simply go out to sea, an army Tor air defense missile system had to be rolled onto the deck of a patrol ship.

There is no point in asking why it was impossible to build something useful with the same money; everything turned out the way it did.

But the navy has built quite a few low-seaworthiness small missile ships (MRK) of Project 21631 Buyan-M. It would seem that units are being built that can only operate near the coast anyway, why not make them multi-purpose?

But this idea simply did not occur to anyone - the doctrine of the Navy and at the same time the idee fixe of the General Staff were strikes on the coast with "Kalibrs", in the 2000s it seemed that they could bring entire countries to their knees. Ukraine showed that it is impossible, and this, by the way, was predicted by the author.

After the Buyan-Ms encountered sanctions on the supply of imported components, which led to the need to revise the project, the most technically successful post-Soviet ship appeared – the Project 22800 Karakurt missile ship.

The ship had the same number of cruise missiles as the Buyan-M, but was much faster, more seaworthy, and, unlike the Buyan-M, could independently attack surface targets with anti-ship cruise missiles.


MRK pr. 22800 "Odintsovo". Photo: Russian Ministry of Defense

At the same time, the ship did not have any irreplaceable or unique foreign components, had domestic engines and was cheaper than the Buyan-M, and in the version with the Pantsir-M anti-aircraft missile and artillery system, it could also shoot down even low-visibility Western cruise missiles or "harpoon-shaped" anti-ship missiles. In the Navy, this is the only type of ship guaranteed to be capable of intercepting such targets with a trained crew; for all the others, either the luck factor is too important, or they are technically incapable of it at all, or their capabilities have not been tested in exercises.

Alas, the Karakurt was ordered by the fleet as a purely strike missile ship, in accordance with the views of the General Staff and some naval theorists of the recent past, although technically the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau could have made the ship multi-purpose right away – if the customer had so desired. This ship cannot fight underwater targets or even detect them.

However, the mass construction of two small missile ships and a series of patrol ships created the illusion among a number of leaders that the naval composition of the forces operating in the near sea zone (NSZ) had been updated.

These people do not understand what these BMZ ships should be like, what they should do and where, and what the main threat to BMZ is (hint: foreign submarines), their worldview is very simple. There are small ships, they operate "offshore", we have built them, we need to think about large ships. It's funny - but the intellectual level of some people responsible for the development of the fleet today is exactly like that.

The final touches to the drama of the surface forces must be recognized as sanctions and reduction of funding for the fleet. Even components for the supposedly Russian Kolomna diesel engines fell under sanctions, not to mention electronics. The construction of all ship projects, except for the small missile ships and minesweepers of the 12700 project, is now in question.

Add to this the reduction in funding in favor of funding the SVO, plus the problems with the development of radar and anti-aircraft missile systems that existed before the SVO, and we get a situation that the Americans call a “perfect storm” – all the factors that exist have converged against the Navy, and it is impossible to eliminate the failures in shipbuilding policy without new ideas.

However, as it turns out, these ideas exist in the country.

Rescue Corvette


The main contradiction of the current moment is that it is necessary to quickly set up many ships capable of performing, among other things, the tasks of the OVR (including at the cost of economically justified costs) in the conditions of chronically ill shipbuilding, while they must also perform other tasks of surface ships, but they must be cheap, and at the same time they must be independent of sanctions and so that they can be built even at those factories that are located on inland waterways, for example in Zelendolsk, that is, they must be small ships, but powerful.

A complex task, but it received a simple and cost-effective solution.

At Army-2024, the United Shipbuilding Corporation exhibited a model of a ship with the code 22800E "Karakurt-E".


The similarities with the Karakurt are obvious, the differences are also visible

It is immediately obvious that the ship is a relative of the Karakurt, it has a similar superstructure and the same electronic weapons as the small missile ship. The same 76-mm gun. But the differences are immediately visible. On the sides, closer to the stern, the ship has launchers for the Paket-NK complex.

This means that the ship is capable of fending off a torpedo attack by intercepting the torpedo heading towards the ship with the M15 anti-torpedo.

Under the keel, you can see the fairing of a small hydroacoustic station (GAS), this is the GAS of the Paket-NK complex. Now our ship is invulnerable to a sudden attack from under the water. Of course, we would like to see regular reloadable torpedo tubes, but there are none in the series, how long to wait if R&D is ordered is unclear, so the serial products are standing.


Launchers of "Paketa-NK" on the sides

Can such a ship not only repel a torpedo attack, but also hit a submarine?

Yes, the universal vertical launchers 3S14, which are part of the universal ship firing complex (USFC), can also be used to launch anti-submarine missiles (ASM) "Otvet" 91RT. These missiles are guaranteed to hit a submarine at a long range, many tens of kilometers.

This is a fundamental difference between the new ship and the old small anti-submarine ships - the MPC had to approach the boat at torpedo range. The proposed corvette will hit the boat without getting close to it.

But how to detect it at a great distance?

We look at the aft hatch.


Stern port for the sonar. Also noteworthy are the water jets instead of propellers.

This lap port can definitely be intended only for a sonar system - either a lowered or towed one. In the latter case, with the group use of such ships, the fleet will have the opportunity to fight in the same way as NATO - due to the large number of units with towed sonar systems, capable of operating in active mode, creating acoustic illumination zones tens or hundreds of kilometers in diameter, inside which even the quietest submarine will have no chance of evading detection. And any target that ends up in such a zone can immediately be hit by an anti-submarine missile from the ship.

With such a tactical model of application, the requirements for the ship's speed are reduced; the main thing for it is to tow the sonar, and the missile will catch up with the fastest submarine.

The general composition of weapons and equipment shown on the model, according to independent experts, looks like this:

– radar complex (radio-technical reconnaissance and detection of surface targets) KRS-27M "Mineral-M";
– radar complex (air target detection station) RLK-S-1RS1-2F of the Pantsir-M anti-aircraft missile and artillery complex;
– radar fire control system MR-123-02/3 "Bagheera";
– 2× unified observation and target designation sights UV-450-01;
– radio reconnaissance and suppression complex MP-405-1 (four antennas);
– PK-10 passive jamming system with 4× KT-216 launchers (40 jamming shells in total);
– navigation radar station MP-231-3 "Pal-N-4";
– satellite communications station "Centaur-NM";
– combat module 3M87-1F with a below-deck storage and delivery system for transport and launch containers with anti-aircraft guided missiles of the Pantsir-M anti-aircraft missile and artillery system (a total of 32 TPKs with 57E6 SAMs and 2 x 000-mm rounds for two AO-30KD anti-aircraft guns);
– universal shipborne firing system 3S-14 (one module, 8 cells for medium-range cruise missiles 3M-14T and anti-ship missiles 3M-54T, and when additional shipborne automated control systems are installed – supersonic and hypersonic anti-ship missiles 3M-55 and 3M-22 and anti-submarine guided missiles 91RT);
– AK-176MA-01 naval artillery mount (total of 152 x 76 mm rounds in the automatic loader, ready to fire, plus additional stored ammunition);
– 2× SM-588 launchers of the Paket-NK anti-torpedo defense system (a total of 8× 324-mm M-15 Lasta anti-torpedoes or 324-mm MTT torpedoes or their combinations)
– 2× pedestal mounts with a 12,7-mm 6P59 Kord heavy machine gun (a total of 100 × 12,7-mm rounds in boxes plus stored ammunition);
– Palfinger PK 15500 Performance crane-manipulator with a lifting capacity of 6 kg or equivalent;
- outboard motor boat;
– hydroacoustic target designation station "Paket-A" of the anti-torpedo defense system "Paket-NK".

Presumably, there is: anti-sabotage hydroacoustic station MG-757.1 "Anapa-M". The rest of the hydroacoustic means are still in question, their composition is not obvious and may change as the project develops.

The deck container can accommodate any replaceable load, such as mine-resistant unmanned underwater vehicles, and the rails on the deck can not only facilitate the movement of the container, but also be used as mine gangways.

The important thing is that all of the above are serial systems that do not need to be developed. The ship can thus easily repeat the success of the Karakurt, which turned out to be possible to build at a rate that was ahead of the Soviets on the first hull.

As you can see, the exhaust is directed outboard, not into the water, so as not to interfere with the operation of the hydroacoustic stations.


The exhaust is visible on the side

If we assume that the ship has not only a towed but also a lowered sonar, then it can search for submarines while at rest, without moving. This is important, since the ship does not have an under-keel sonar capable of detecting submarines in motion. But work from rest and competent tactics within a detachment of ships easily reduce the significance of this drawback to zero.

The most interesting thing is the engine.

Unlike the Karakurt, which had a three-shaft propulsion plant with propellers, water jets were used here – four in a row, one diesel for each.

Why is this scheme made?

It is worth citing the author's article, dedicated to such a power plant scheme and its application on a multi-purpose corvette, written back in 2022, "Near Sea Zone and Nuclear Deterrence":

“First of all, it is necessary to find an import-substituting power plant that is inexpensive and mass-produced.

At present, the only manufacturer of diesel engines, on the one hand, independent of sanctions, and on the other, capable of producing a diesel suitable specifically for a combat ship, is PAO Zvezda from St. Petersburg. Small missile ships (MRK) of Project 22800 Karakurt are designed for engines of this plant.

Unfortunately, the production rate of M507D diesel engines for Karakurts at Zvezda is very low. The enterprise has not overcome the crisis, in which it is still. Today Zvezda is capable of producing a maximum of two Karakurts per year.

However, experts know that the 112-cylinder M507D is a "pair" of two 56-cylinder M504s working on a common gearbox. Thus, 5-6 M507s (there are three of them on the Karakurt) turn into 10-12 M504s. Moreover, the capabilities of the Zvezda, in principle, allow for the production of a certain number of precisely these "halves" of M504s.

Their production is possible and must be accelerated...

At the same time, however, “half” of the engine is also half of its power, which is critically important for the ship’s performance.

The solution is suggested by foreign experience. For many years now, multi-shaft water jet installations have been used on foreign high-speed vessels, sometimes quite large ones. This is a "battery" of water jets from side to side, for which "their" engine works. And here lies the solution: a "battery" of affordable and completely domestic M504, working for water jets, is capable of providing a ship with approximately the same weight and size characteristics as the "Karakurt", but with a smaller number of diesel engines."

The solution was obvious, they worked on it, and here is the result - the "diesel issue" is losing its urgency, now, if we start working on these ships now, then by 2032 we can get at least 12 such corvettes, and for very reasonable money. And this is the solution to the BMZ problem: 12 ships - this is two brigades of surface ships capable of fighting against submarines, one per fleet.

The competent use of the Project 20380 corvettes (in the European part of Russia, it is urgently necessary to transfer these ships from the Baltic Fleet to the Northern Fleet) will allow the Northern and Pacific Fleets to have the necessary minimum of multi-purpose ships just in time for the next world war, if it cannot be avoided.

This is the salvation of both the fleet and the country, and the design of this ship, judging by the number, is for export and needs to be urgently adapted to the needs of the Russian fleet.

We wasted the time that history gave us to prepare for the next global slaughter. We admired nuclear torpedoes and the release of the "Strike Force". But time is up, and now we must do something for our survival. And, as shown above, ships capable of fighting submarines are critically important for this survival.

But the fleet does not live only on anti-submarine defense.

If we assume that 12 such ships will be built in this decade, this means, for example, a total missile salvo of 96 cruise missiles of all types, including hypersonic ones.

And, for example, in the current war in the Black Sea, these ships would be the most useful - having the same air defense as the Karakurt (and this is a proven interception of two Storm Shadow cruise missiles at low altitude - an unprecedented result for our Navy), these ships would be able to operate even near the Ukrainian coast, and attempts by the Ukrainian Armed Forces to attack them with Harpoons or Neptunes would end the same way as the firing from the Karakurts at the RM-24 during tests, or the cruise missiles of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

And if the Ukrainians tried to use underwater weapons against these ships, the Paket-NK complex would come into play.

To combat unmanned boats, there are serial machine gun modules and FPV UAVs.

True, these corvettes won't make it to Ukraine in time. But they will make it in time for the next war if we start building them now.

I would like to hope that the Navy command will not miss this chance. Because this is the last chance of the fleet. As well as the country as a whole.
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  1. +7
    30 August 2024 05: 23
    Aren't there not enough Utesov? Why don't they install the Serval MSOU? It's just right for fighting backs and drones
    1. +25
      30 August 2024 14: 02
      Thanks to the author for the article and to the editors of the Ministry of Defense for the courage to publish this article!
      In general, it has long been useless to appeal to the leadership of the fleet and army, they live in another world and even if they wanted to, they would not change anything. The situation now is like in 1916 and can only be resolved with a change of power, if of course healthy patriotic forces come to power and not Chubais's followers. In any case, I do not see any other way to change the situation.
      1. +8
        30 August 2024 16: 40
        I agree, the titans have left the army and the military-industrial complex, their place has been taken by small fry, and under no circumstances will they leave their well-established feeding troughs.

        A great country sets great goals. But if the head of the country says that we are satisfied with the fact of the collapse of the Union - then what can we expect?
        We have what we have.
        And the point of the moment is to not let the country completely screw up.
        This "elite" is no longer capable of anything, the concert is over. We need to find and help a new elite to grow, with high and proud goals. And the small fry have already played.
        1. 0
          30 August 2024 19: 34
          And the point of the moment is to not let the country completely screw up.
          - Yes, a large-scale goal! And you still say:
          And if the head of the country says that we are satisfied with the fact of the collapse of the Union, then what can we expect?
          - Well, that's what we expected from you.
          1. +1
            30 August 2024 19: 52
            I understand your sarcasm, but my two theses are not contradictory.
            The meaning of the moment is literally about today's affairs, because it is impossible to deny that the chain of mistakes made by the leadership created a non-zero possibility of defeat, or - failure to achieve victory, if that is easier...

            And the remark about the leadership's attitude to the "most important geopolitical catastrophe", the results of which the leadership calmly accepted and does not intend to change - this remark is about complex historical events that have already taken place and have a constant negative impact on current processes.

            And what's wrong with the idea of ​​letting the country get screwed? If society doesn't influence its elite, then not only the country will get screwed...
            Somehow
            1. +1
              30 August 2024 20: 00
              And what's wrong with the idea of ​​letting the country go to waste?
              - that this has not been enough for a long time...
              1. -1
                30 August 2024 20: 10
                Your discontent is understandable, but you must agree - first you need to stand firm, then strain yourself, and only then move forward and win.
                Winning requires no less effort than defending, that's obvious.
                That is why there are goals - today's, tomorrow's, long-term, and so on.

                Before you win, you need to understand who, with what and when, right? And what the enemy is.
                Otherwise, all this is just idealistic talk about nothing...
                1. +6
                  30 August 2024 20: 17
                  Your discontent is understandable, but you must agree - first you need to stand firm, then strain yourself, and only then move forward and win.
                  - I would have agreed with you 10-15 years ago. But not now, not now. This "getting off our knees", this "no time to waste", this "the time for simple solutions has passed" - has long been a bummer and smells of mothballs. This was very, very yesterday. Today it is irrelevant. It was necessary to "stand firm" too long ago.
                  1. -3
                    30 August 2024 20: 25
                    Oh, have mercy, where did I say “getting off our knees” and other scary words?

                    On the contrary, on the contrary...
                    But I don't agree with the thesis that "to stand firm" is a thing of the past. There are not enough real (not newspaper) forces yet. It will take some time to accumulate them and set many things up for work.
                    A false start here is mortally dangerous, remember the unsuccessful attempts to attack in the Kharkov region not so long ago...

                    True, it’s not entirely clear to me yet:
                    And what DECISIVE goals does the leadership set for the military?

                    If it's not time to announce - it can be accepted. But if we're talking about impotence in making such decisions - it's a lousy business...
                    But in general, you and I are talking about the same thing, only we are gnawing at it from different sides... drinks
                    1. +2
                      30 August 2024 20: 31
                      And if we are talking about impotence in making such decisions, it’s a lousy business...
                      - I think that's exactly the point.
                    2. +4
                      31 August 2024 12: 06
                      A false start here is mortally dangerous, remember the unsuccessful attempts to attack in the Kharkov region not so long ago...

                      What the hell is a false start? Why haven't you and your we started waiting yet?
                      Haven't you realized yet that we haven't started yet, coward and traitor, Shoigu works for the enemy and Mumu is just Mumu?
                      You might as well tell me that horses are not changed midstream. What if the horse dies and is lying in the water? What will you wait for? When will it come back to life and pull the cart or will you change the horse?
                      1. -1
                        31 August 2024 12: 34
                        Dear ramzay21,
                        Why are you blaming me for something I never said or even hinted at?
                        Your indignation at the government's policies is understandable, but what does this have to do with me?
                        Maybe in that case you will announce what you are doing to ensure that your indignation reaches the authorities? And how am I personally interfering with you?
                        If the morning is not going well, then what do others have to do with it?
      2. 0
        30 August 2024 22: 38
        The same thoughts come to mind.
      3. +1
        31 August 2024 13: 05
        The situation now is like in 1916 and can only be resolved with a change of power.

        Exactly. And no models from a ship modeling club can save the situation.
      4. +1
        3 September 2024 08: 53
        Healthy patriots are either in prison or under investigation, unfortunately.
      5. 0
        3 September 2024 14: 22
        Chubais is also preparing in full swing
    2. 0
      31 August 2024 16: 59
      Apparently the example of the Black Sea Fleet has not yet been comprehended. I look at the book and see a fig, as they say. And I wonder, can Paket-NK work on BEK?
  2. +8
    30 August 2024 05: 25
    No, the ship may be good, but... it certainly won't bring stars to the shoulder straps of the admirals sitting on Admiralsky Po, D.1. That's why we need the "Leader", we need a new aircraft carrier, we need to finally finish the development of funds under the most promising Po.20386. The President needs the "Poseidon". Of course, with the money already spent and planned to be spent, it will be possible to make maybe a hundred "Karakurt-e", but that won't bring stars. That's why the admirals need the "Leader" so that in a few years the Navy parade will be in the Estonian version (those ships, by the way, are much cheaper than the "Karakurt"
    1. +14
      30 August 2024 06: 34
      Bravo, Alexander !!!
      Excellent article. And very timely.
      Karakurt is truly the most successful series of ships in the modern history of Russia. 12 ships by 2032 will not be enough. Yes It is necessary to increase production for the OVR.
      1. +5
        30 August 2024 10: 01
        But time is up, and now we need to do at least something for our survival.

        This phrase seemed key to me from the author. All our past confrontation with the West was determined by the principle - The whole world to dust! No one was going to survive in a future world nuclear war, and for this purpose they were churning out thousands of missiles with nuclear warheads on various carriers, where the main goal was to manage to deliver a retaliatory strike of such force that the enemy would not risk starting...
        The "nuclear winter" theory also dominated this strategy, saying that no one would survive, even in those countries where nuclear warheads would not be dropped. However, now ideas are increasingly popping up that in the southern hemisphere of the Earth, everything will be quite tolerable and life will survive. This means that we can already think about survival, especially if we manage to neutralize some of the enemy's submarines and intercept some of the enemy's ICBMs. And as we can see, the West has never rejected this scenario and has developed its own means of detection and interception. Will we be able to handle such costs or will we stick to the principle of "They will all go to hell, and we will go to heaven!"?
      2. +11
        30 August 2024 10: 18
        Machito
        12 ships by 2032 will not be enough.

        It's still not much, but it's much better than nothing at all...
        6 pennants are at least somehow capable of ensuring the safe exit of the SSBN from the base into the ocean.
        Great article. And very timely.

        But Timokhin doesn't have any others.
      3. +10
        30 August 2024 11: 52
        The author is certainly a very competent and authoritative specialist, it is difficult to disagree with him. Sadly, he is struggling like a fish on ice.
        1. +11
          30 August 2024 12: 08
          Alexander Timokhin constantly raises the issue of the combat readiness of our fleet in his articles.
          And Maxim Klimov beats like a fish on ice: he even wrote to the president. Yes
          1. +1
            3 September 2024 14: 28
            I even wrote to the president.

            and even put a dummy bottom mine on the seabed before the naval parade, if I'm not mistaken. to draw attention to the problems. Such an attitude to the matter would be for those who make key decisions...
      4. +3
        30 August 2024 13: 15
        Sorry, I have nothing to do with the navy. So, the understanding that the navy has not completely recovered from Tsushima is definitely there. I apologize in advance, but do we have a naval doctrine? Do we have a clear idea of ​​who, where and for how long our potential adversary is? Do we have an understanding of WHAT kind of fleet we need? I'm not talking about what kind of ships to churn out and how many, but about what, where and against whom the fleet (and there is none yet, there are ships, but not a fleet) will operate? Well, and remembering how, for example, fleets operated in wars, I understand that there is no sense in ships (except for admirals). The fleet does not recoup the money spent on it... at all. Well, and remembering how the Pacific fleet entered the war in 1945, well, don't even remember it. The Americans were finishing off the last barges of the Japanese, and our admirals were the first to lay mines. In short, we need more battleships and urgently, otherwise things will be like this.
        1. +11
          30 August 2024 15: 33
          Apparently, our dying self-proclaimed soldiers have absolutely no idea what kind of fleet we need. fool
          A Russian admiral is first and foremost a "manager", a "businessman" who strives to line his pockets, retire, and get a job at USC in order to receive kickbacks and continue to use budget funds for his own benefit. Yes
          1. +4
            30 August 2024 17: 42
            Oh, oh, our sailors, forgive me, like madmen, are pulling the budget blanket over themselves. They don't care that they need drones, armored vehicles, night vision devices. They don't care that every ruble given to them is something that didn't go to the fighters, including the glorious marines. We need armored barges, with bulldozers, with anti-aircraft systems to launch missiles from them. No, give them this and that and the third and the ocean zone.
            1. +1
              30 August 2024 18: 15
              Of course, first of all, what you write about is needed. But defense as such, and war are not limited to the land battlefield, you must agree.
              And the navy is indeed a very inertial thing - it takes years and decades to work here, it is impossible to build a ship in a month or a year...
              And it is precisely for determining the balance that the MO exists...
              1. +1
                30 August 2024 19: 52
                Yes, the matter is inert, of course. But not a single naval commander has clearly, distinctly and distinctly voiced the doctrine of creation, construction and, most importantly, use of the fleet, anywhere and in no way. And excuse me, talking about ships without a naval doctrine is already strange. And so I remembered that a mass of ships is not a fleet, it is a mass of ships. This is from the British during WWI about the Americans. Fisher had an idea - a fleet is not bases and ships, a fleet is people and traditions. In a word, there is no understanding for WHAT and against WHOM the fleet is needed.
                1. +2
                  30 August 2024 19: 57
                  I agree, although not in everything feel
                  The naval doctrine exists, and there was a shipbuilding program based on it.
                  The trouble is that both were built on erroneous assessments and forecasts, and the conclusions drawn from these assessments were incorrect.
                  Much has been written and said about this, but the authorities usually don’t give a damn about the opinions of everyone else outside their personal offices.
                  And if in other types it is possible to fix it in operational mode, then the fleet is such a colossus that once launched, it continues to move until it runs out of fuel or falls off a cliff... recourse
                  1. +1
                    30 August 2024 20: 00
                    The saddest thing is that our admirals do not understand or do not want to understand one thing. The last successes of the fleet were Admiral Kolchak and the Black Sea in WWI. There is nothing else to write down as an asset.
          2. +4
            30 August 2024 18: 08
            You are surprised in vain... look at the contents of the "Educational standards" of higher medical universities - you will lose your power of speech for a long time... There are 23 pages on Radioelectronic systems and complexes...
            The word "officer" is not used there at all....

            People!!!! OW!!! Where did you come to???

            These "dying ones" themselves are the product of the grave idiocy of the education they themselves established.
  3. +4
    30 August 2024 05: 37
    MRK-PLO can be built at 3-4 shipyards at once.
    frigate/large anti-submarine ship 22350M at 2-3 shipyards.
    In addition, project 677 submarines and corvettes 20385, and that's all that's needed
    1. +7
      30 August 2024 10: 21
      ..you can build at 3-4 shipyards at once...

      And engines/gearboxes at 3-4 factories at the same time, would...
  4. +12
    30 August 2024 06: 07
    True, these corvettes won’t make it to Ukraine in time. But they will be ready in time for the next war if we start building them now.

    When there is no fish, even crayfish???
    And who said that the war with Ukraine at this rate will not last until the very end???
    If Russia fights the same way in the next war, it may not have time...
  5. +6
    30 August 2024 06: 26
    Will anyone at the top read this? I don't think so. And even if they do, what's the point? As was written above, positions are needed and mega projects where you can make money. The article is a plus, as is the caring author. More articles like this.
    1. +5
      30 August 2024 08: 03
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      Will anyone at the top read this?

      A naive Chukchi youth, who reads at the top? They report to the top sad
      1. -2
        30 August 2024 08: 04
        No need to be rude, this is not the right site
        1. +8
          30 August 2024 08: 06
          I didn't think that you would take it literally in relation to yourself. I apologize.
          1. +3
            30 August 2024 08: 07
            hi Good afternoon. It happens to everyone.
  6. +2
    30 August 2024 06: 27
    The letter "E" traditionally meant that the product was for export
    1. +16
      30 August 2024 06: 58
      The corvette platform is not very weather-resistant and does not carry weapons, and it also leads to significant crew fatigue. The small displacement does not allow for a sufficient number of different weapons, detection equipment, ammunition, fuel, and other supplies for significant autonomy. The small volumes of the premises do not allow for a more or less comfortable crew accommodation, and also increase their fatigue. The small size leads to difficulties in servicing the mechanisms, equipment, and weapons, and also complicates repairs and upgrades. A warship in the hull of a modern large destroyer is preferable in this regard. A frigate is somewhere in the middle. Personally, I do not understand the passion in the domestic fleet for small-sized vessels with insignificant combat and operational qualities. Just to build more? Or are these the real capabilities of modern shipbuilding in the Russian Federation - only a mosquito fleet and submarines?
      1. +10
        30 August 2024 08: 30
        You write everything correctly, but this project relates to the ships of the OVR, and they ensure the safety of the naval base and the PB, as well as the exit and entry of ships and boats.
      2. +4
        30 August 2024 08: 34
        The most important thing is not to squeeze a helicopter into the proposed project. Which is almost a basic requirement for anti-submarine warfare missions.
        1. +4
          30 August 2024 10: 57
          Its autonomy and seaworthiness imply the use of land-based aviation....
          1. +5
            30 August 2024 11: 30
            Yeah... By the time you call a helicopter from the shore, by the time it flies there... And how much time will it have left to search if it wastes fuel on flights back and forth?
            1. +5
              30 August 2024 11: 37
              Well, now add the landing pad, add the increase in displacement and taking into account the speed already reduced by the project, you will get an even lower speed, at which even North Korean poachers will laugh, not to mention NATO submariners
        2. +5
          30 August 2024 11: 38
          Quote: paul3390
          The most important thing is not to squeeze a helicopter into the proposed project. Which is almost a basic requirement for anti-submarine warfare missions.

          This issue was covered by K and T. Apparently they are right in pointing out that for an OVR corvette operating at a distance of 200-300 miles from the base, the presence of its OWN helicopter (as well as the conditions for its basing) is more of a luxury than a necessity. It is more important and simpler to have the means of refueling the base anti-submarine helicopter in the "hovering" mode.
          1. +1
            30 August 2024 22: 03
            How do you imagine refueling a helicopter in hovering mode over water, rough water plus gusty wind = refueling is impossible, the refueling hoses will break, I'm not even talking about the difference in fuel types: aviation kerosene for a helicopter and diesel fuel for its own engines.
            1. +1
              30 August 2024 22: 16
              Quote: Ivan 1980
              How do you imagine refueling a helicopter while hovering over water?

              No need to imagine anything. Look for videos on YouTube. Unfortunately, not ours, but NATO's.
        3. +6
          30 August 2024 13: 19
          What is the general situation with our anti-submarine helicopters? Are they being produced, have they been modernized, do they meet modern criteria?
        4. 0
          3 September 2024 16: 55
          In my opinion, trying to squeeze in a platform for a helicopter is pointless because: 1. Who said that a helicopter is a panacea for searching for submarines? Even in Soviet times, contacts, real contacts and not training ones, can be counted on the fingers. 2. What are we going to put on these platforms? Ka-27? It's almost fifty and production has long since ceased, and there is no new one in sight. The remaining ones are successfully reaching the end of their service life. 3. What equipment are we going to put on it? Novella from Il-38? And will it lift? We haven't heard anything new. 4. Preparing the flight crew for the search is long, expensive, I think the skills have been lost. 5. The weather, with such a wave/look for statistics higher/and such a displacement, can you imagine takeoff and landing, not to mention other things? With difficulty. So it turns out that they will use it, this site, to deliver another star-crossed self-propelled aircraft, well, in extreme cases, to evacuate the sick.
      3. +6
        30 August 2024 10: 28
        Monster_Fat
        A warship in the hull of a modern large destroyer is preferable in this regard. A frigate is somewhere in the middle. Personally, I do not understand the passion in the domestic fleet for small ships with insignificant combat and operational qualities.

        You can dream for a long time about a huge mansion, but having the opportunity to build an ordinary house, it is strange to continue to dream about the impossible, remaining without a roof over your head...
      4. +3
        30 August 2024 11: 35
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        The platform is a corvette and is not very resistant to weather conditions and the use of weapons, and also leads to significant fatigue of the crew. The small displacement does not allow for the placement of a sufficient number of various weapons, or detection equipment, as well as ammunition, fuel and other supplies for significant autonomy. Small volumes of premises do not allow for the crew to be accommodated more or less comfortably and also increase their fatigue.

        This is a corvette of the OVR, operating in the near zone of the base and being part of the defense system. In essence, it is a component of the OVR, designed to confirm contact and destroy the target. Primary long-range detection in the system should be carried out by coastal stations, to which it would be good to also have GAD ships (mini-stalwarts based on trawlers).
        Small BC? Well, it has a base with a division of the same KORs nearby - at any moment a ship that has used up its BC can be sent to reload, replacing it with another KOR.
        Low autonomy? See the paragraph above. It's enough for patrolling in the near zone, and for a one-time exit to provide entry and exit of large pots it's more than enough.

        The only thing that KOR lacks is RBU. In the coastal zone at shallow depths, RSB is sometimes preferable to torpedoes.
        And yes... three diesel engines with 112 cranks each and the operation of hydroacoustics on the move somehow do not go well together.
        1. +5
          30 August 2024 22: 46
          Quote: Alexey RA
          This is an OVR corvette, operating in the near zone of the base and is part of the defense system.

          Still, this passion for "Mini..." is not clear, the hull itself is inexpensive, but increasing the size dramatically increases the performance of systems in rough weather. For the Black Sea or the Caspian Sea, the size of a mini-corvette may be fine, but submarines are not often encountered there. Larger ships are clearly needed for the Northern and Pacific Fleets.
          1. +2
            31 August 2024 09: 30
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Still, this passion for "Mini..." is not clear, the case itself is inexpensive, but increasing the size dramatically increases the performance of the systems in bad weather.

            And increases the cost. Remember - OVR needs at least 50 cases.
            Quote: Saxahorse
            The Northern and Pacific Fleets clearly need larger ships.

            The Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet in the OVR had Albatrosses of Project 1124. And they were replaced by the Gepard.
            1. +2
              31 August 2024 20: 01
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Albatrosses of Project 1124 were used in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet in the OVR.

              Of course they tried to run, but in the USSR ships of Project 1124 were classified as 3rd rank for a reason.

              ..Calculations showed that in the Barents Sea area in 2015, waves with a height of 2 to 4 m (56% of cases) prevailed. The frequency of cases when the wave height exceeded 5 m was 2015% in 15.

              So what will ships with a displacement of only 800 tons do in such rough seas?

              By the way, the highest wave height in the Barents Sea, which occurs several times a year, is up to 14 meters... belay
      5. +1
        31 August 2024 23: 50
        Large corvettes and frigates require multi-shaft propulsion systems, such as codlag, which requires powerful diesel engines and generators. And our shipyards are not able to produce large hulls at a low price, like the Koreans and Chinese.
  7. +8
    30 August 2024 06: 31
    I agree with the author. There is no point in having a SSBN if it can't even leave the base safely. This topic has been chewed over for years in the VO...
    1. -8
      30 August 2024 09: 48
      I agree, interesting developments of diving ships
      A modern example of a diving ship is the 25st century SMX-2010 warship project, presented by the French shipbuilding concern DCNS at the Euronaval 25 naval exhibition. The length of the SMX-110 is about 3000 meters, the underwater displacement of 25 tons. The semi-submerged body has an elongated shape, optimized for high speed in the surface position. As conceived by the creators, the submarine frigate SMX-38 should quickly, at a speed of XNUMX knots, arrive in the combat area, and then go under water and covertly attack the enemy.

      From the article "On the border of two environments. Diving ships: history and prospects"
      https://topwar.ru/171111-na-granice-dvuh-sred-nyrjajuschie-korabli-istorija-i-perspektivy.html
  8. +8
    30 August 2024 06: 43
    While reading the article, I caught myself thinking that the comments would again say: "Well, Timokhin has a lot of letters again, pessimism again." This is a whole cohort of "analysts" for whom any article needs two paragraphs: We're about to bang and the second: Kyiv in three days... An alarming article. And even a small lieutenant colonel who has holed up... doesn't like uncomfortable questions. You know where. And yes, I agree with the previous comments: the topic is too small for the country's leaders. We need to write about multi-billion dollar projects like Kuzkina Mat and there are no analogues... And also, for tanks to jump over hills and shoot in flight during exercises.
  9. +12
    30 August 2024 07: 04
    How shameful of the author! Doesn't he know that the Ministry of Defense audit revealed the "missing" of 11 trillion rubles? And even earlier, 1,5 million sets of uniforms disappeared from warehouses. Just now, the investigative bodies detained General Pavel Popov, who may shed light on these mysterious disappearances of money. But it won't get better as long as the "boss" of these Popovs, Ivanovs, Shevtsovs, etc., all these thieves, is at the head of the country. So there is nothing to build these ships with.
  10. +8
    30 August 2024 07: 17
    In this war, the fleet has shown itself to be the most useless and expensive toy. The fleet failed to blockade Ukraine, and the only thing it is doing now is hiding so that it will not be sent to the bottom. The main priority is the ground forces.
    1. +8
      30 August 2024 10: 27
      Quote: Ludoman
      The fleet failed to cope with the blockade of Ukraine, and the only thing it is doing now is hiding so that it will not be sent to the bottom.
      Was the fleet given the task of blockading Ukraine? Who was puzzled by the grain deal, why did they surrender Zmeiny in a gesture of goodwill, set up the cruiser Moskva...
      Even the events of the "Five-Day War" (or "War of 08.08.08") to force Georgia to peace, more significantly determined the tasks of the fleet than what happened with the SVO. The third year of the "blitzkrieg", where we "haven't even started yet", here it is not the fleet and the army that are to blame, but those who are running the process.
    2. +2
      30 August 2024 11: 36
      Pardon me, but the task was carried out as the fleet was given.
      Illiterate command and planning could not have produced any other result. This is a problem of the upper management level, it was formed at the level of an erroneous concept of the role of the fleet for Russia in a modern war.

      But there is one more sad thing:
      The state of combat training and naval proficiency of the crews. A significant part of the responsibility for the loss of ships lies with their commanders, perhaps even the main...

      If this "conservatory" is corrected - there will be some sense. But if they don't want to - then as usual, war and shame... and the Russo-Japanese War will rise again like a Phoenix...
      By the way, the RYaV needs to be taught and taught, taken apart piece by piece everywhere and anywhere.

      The fleet ensures our safety for now. Locking ourselves in a land circle is hopeless.
      Yeah, it's expensive. Very expensive. But there is no other way and there won't be.
      1. +1
        31 August 2024 23: 55
        Come on, read about Operation Verp and October 6, 1943. Headquarters had nothing to do with it, the navy brought about the defeat on its own. Why are you so sure that Headquarters is to blame now?
  11. -8
    30 August 2024 07: 27
    I read this work and in my opinion, the author is a good journalist, but far from the Navy.
    The well-known saying runs through the entire article: “Boss, all is lost, client…”.
    "Albatrosses" are aging small antisubmarine ships, with an average age of 25-26 years. But they are running and not "welded" to the wall. They undergo repairs and are running, 23 ships in all fleets. The oldest are in the Black Sea Fleet, the newest are in the Pacific Fleet, and a photo with "peeling" sides does not indicate their combat capability. Together with minesweepers, they are the OVR. Which is engaged in the safe withdrawal of submarines and SSBNs from bases.
    Everything is mixed up, both the OVR and the Far Zone.
    Corvettes 22380 and 22385 in service - 10 hulls and under construction, in various stages of readiness - 8 hulls. With our well-known "sores", they are being built. The corvettes were conceived for the near zone, but given our disastrous situation with long-range ships, they show themselves well in long voyages. Westerners classify them as small frigates.
    For the long-range search and destruction of submarines and nuclear submarines in patrol areas, the Northern Fleet has: 3 frigates, 1 destroyer, 3 large anti-submarine ships (plus 1 undergoing modernization into a frigate), 1 cruiser, 1 nuclear-powered cruiser (Nakhimov will be released, Pyotr will be modernized). Baltic Fleet - 2 cruisers. Black Sea Fleet - 3 frigates (for the Mediterranean squadron). Pacific Fleet - 1 cruiser, 2 large anti-submarine ships, 1 frigate (1 large anti-submarine ship undergoing modernization into a frigate). The Pacific Fleet is the most disadvantaged.
    The idea of ​​using the 22800 Karakurt project for the MPC is not bad. While criticizing the Buyans for their 26 knot speed, we forget that the same water jets are proposed to be installed on the new ship. It should be noted that the Paket-NK is not only anti-torpedoes, but also torpedoes with a firing range of 20 km.
    A, the "Otvet" anti-submarine missile with a firing range of 40 km, which are loaded into the existing firing complex. Two sonars (bow and lowered) will provide submarine search. A quick and cheap answer to the problem of replacing the MPC. I assume that this project will be given to Zelenodolsk. They have freed up capacity and they have the competence to build such ships. Over time, the Komsomolsk shipyard will be able to take on the job. They are busy and, taking into account the modernization, they lack specialists, as they recently stated. And it was not for nothing that the issue of building new shipyards was raised. Shipbuilding is an expensive and time-consuming undertaking.
    1. +4
      30 August 2024 11: 47
      And where, in your opinion, is the author wrong?
      He expressed everything much more optimistically than it actually was.
      There is also such an indicator as the coefficient of intensity of use of the ship composition, the state of readiness of forces and means, the percentage of being in the first and second line, and much more, I don’t even want to get into it.

      But the picture seems cheerful - so many ships-missiles-torpedoes-shells.

      Try to combine this to perform at least one complex task, for example, the OVR of the SSBN base in Primorye or Kamchatka. But not according to the plan of a street kid's training, but taking into account the enemy's forces and means in the theater during the threatening period.

      I think many will feel bad, and some of the turbopartiots will simply drown.
      So simply listing the design data for a narrow class of naval forces does not provide much at all.

      Thanks to the author for his ongoing efforts to bring attention to these issues... drinks
    2. 0
      31 August 2024 23: 57
      "Chassis", do these chassis have working afterburning turbines?
  12. +14
    30 August 2024 07: 57
    I am not a sailor at all, but if you compare what you get in the US, the president is a feeble-minded old man, but behind him are 11 strike aircraft carrier groups, and we have a president who is a "young" old man, but behind him, and only after 10 years, are 12 "terrible" "karakurts".
    1. +6
      30 August 2024 11: 51
      About "grandfather" - very well, lately it hits you right in the eye when grandfather talks to little children on TV...

      But in essence, that’s exactly how it is: 11 AUGs and 12 scary Karakuts.
      We have no other fleet for you...
      1. -7
        30 August 2024 17: 07
        We have no other fleet for you...

        Your brother, the relocate, never even had a country, let alone a navy.
        laughing
        1. +4
          30 August 2024 17: 21
          Funny ...
          I don’t know about your brother, I haven’t held a candle to him.
          I work in Russia and for Russia. I can’t answer for others.
          And when you don’t see the log in your own eye, but you see a speck in someone else’s eye - well, that’s called a lack of critical thinking... bully
          1. -6
            30 August 2024 17: 33
            Your "work for Russia" is imprinted right on your forehead. Yes, yes, for the wonderful Russia of the future, as you say
            1. +4
              30 August 2024 17: 36
              Don't be offended by this naive rhetoric, don't waste your energy and power wassat
              Is there anything to say about the article or comments? If so, let's discuss it. laughing
              If not, then what is all this fuss for? wassat
              1. -8
                30 August 2024 18: 14
                Come on, can you really add anything to this?
                But in essence, that’s exactly how it is: 11 AUGs and 12 scary Karakuts.

                The creature as it is, in its purest form, I would say)
                It's hard, and in some places even overpowering laughing
                1. +3
                  30 August 2024 18: 17
                  Clearly, autumn is approaching... wassat
    2. -2
      30 August 2024 16: 57
      11 carrier strike groups

      ! !

      I have always suspected that the views of those who are not sailors and some who are many times professionals are somewhat similar.
  13. +7
    30 August 2024 07: 57
    Chubais needs to be brought back and he needs to be entrusted with this matter, then everything will work out. Everything has always worked out, and now it will work out, besides, he is "our own", and even "effective". The main thing is that there is no time to waste.
    1. +7
      30 August 2024 08: 20
      Chubais needs to be brought back

      If he needs to be returned, it will only be to prison and for life...
      1. +4
        30 August 2024 08: 57
        Well, it finally dawned on me that a battery of diesel engines with water jets at the stern is better than any other option; four is not enough, you can expand it and install six, and there is no need to double the already multi-cylinder engines.
        1. +1
          31 August 2024 14: 24
          There is no limit to perfection! This project simply requires a pair of turbines with electric generators, and the drive for the water jets from electric motors. Well, until we change the "karma" on the Paket-NK (I mean the NATO caliber 324 mm), the fleet will remain a loser...
    2. +7
      30 August 2024 08: 43
      The main thing is that there is no time to get going
      They swung and swung, the rats threw up, and they didn’t sway, and time was running out.
  14. -1
    30 August 2024 08: 34
    Or did I misunderstand something or are there only 8 universal cells?
    Isn't it a little? You need to have 4 PLURs. If PL capabilities are a priority, then you need to consider the possibility of failure or miss.
    So 4 pieces are highly desirable.
    There are 4 cells left. Isn't that enough?
    1. +2
      30 August 2024 10: 39
      So 4 pieces are highly desirable.
      There are 4 cells left. Isn't that enough?

      Of course not enough.
      It would be better to have 96 like on Berke, or 122 like on Tika fellow , but it's just a BMZ corvette recourse ... It is much more useful to have many of them, not 1 constantly at sea, but 2-3, which means having 9-12 pennants for each fleet...
      1. -2
        30 August 2024 12: 51
        96 would be quite tempting.
        But for a small frigate, 8 or 16 is more logical.
      2. +1
        31 August 2024 14: 38
        not 1 constantly at sea, but 2-3,
        It is logical to keep one destroyer like the Japanese "Shirane" at sea - it has an autonomy of more than 10 days, and three full-fledged anti-submarine helicopters, and modern air defense. But when leaving or entering, the SSBN should be called in for escort by Karakurt.
        1. 0
          31 August 2024 15: 55
          It makes more sense to keep one destroyer like the Japanese "Shirane" at sea - it has an endurance of more than 10 days

          More logical, more reliable and more serious, but where are they... domestic destroyers...
    2. +1
      31 August 2024 20: 04
      There are 4 cells left. Isn't that enough?

      Yes, that's enough. For such a small ship there are 8 cells and that's fine. If necessary, for different tasks, you can also re-equip it in the base, from which it will not go far often anyway.
      1. 0
        1 September 2024 08: 08
        It is clear that it can be reloaded. But you need to go to the base. You need to stand. You need to wait. What the author described already pulls on a light frigate and the module with cells is not such a big thing. I think it is more logical to have more weapons with you and not for 1 shot.
        Without thinking, 8+8 cells will make the ship much heavier.
        1. +1
          2 September 2024 10: 21
          Quote: garri-lin
          Without thinking, 8+8 cells will make the ship much heavier.

          You are embarking on the dangerous path of "small improvements", which is well described by Kuzin. wink
          Thus, the dimensions of the missiles again directly "crawled out" through the ship. “Armed men” did not understand this at all: “Just think, they added“ just something ”(!) Less than a meter of length and less than a ton (!) Of weight” (meaning a new rocket). Looking ahead, we note that these “only something” cost the ship an extra 13 m of length, 2,3 m of width and 2700 of displacement.
          © V.P.Kuzin. RKA project 1164.
          1. 0
            2 September 2024 10: 54
            I cannot judge whether the improvement you refer to was justified.
            But underarmament with a small number of pennants is also not good. If you look at it for ASW purposes, then I repeat, 4 ASW missiles at least.
            What about the other 4? Is that enough? It's for wartime.
          2. +1
            2 September 2024 13: 06
            Let me rephrase it a little.
            If we make a small ASW frigate based on the Karakurut, the main problem is seaworthiness.
            The boats can go out in any weather. And they will be expected in any weather. And they will be expected quite close. So whoever will provide the exit must be able to work in adverse conditions.
            So it will have to be redone. And the displacement will have to be increased.
            Here you can also equip yourself.
            Here we are discussing a specific ship project, which is slightly inappropriate for what they want to adapt it for.
  15. +5
    30 August 2024 08: 40
    Project 22800E is not viable. The original project 22800 is already loaded to capacity for its displacement. Another issue is the lack of a takeoff and landing deck, at least for UAVs. This is a very important imperative of the times.
    It is possible to increase the length of the hull by ten meters, which does not require recalculating the hull for strength. If more, then it will be a new ship with all the engineering recalculations and calculations.
    To build this minimum of ships (12 pieces) of the 22800E project (actually a corvette or frigate), cooperation between several factories is needed, which, in principle, exist.
    But the main thing is financing, as they say, there is no money but you stay afloat. Where to get it? This is the confiscation of funds obtained illegally from all the top military billionaires, millionaires and their family members. Then direct financing of shipbuilding plants without the participation of commercial banks and various shell companies. soldier
    1. +6
      30 August 2024 11: 43
      Quote: V.
      It is possible to increase the length of the hull by ten meters, which does not require recalculating the hull for strength. If more, then it will be a new ship with all the engineering recalculations and calculations.

      Or you can not pervert with "Karakurts" and look in the direction of Zelenodolsk. Which has a specially designed corvette, which was originally made to replace those same "Albatrosses". Which was built for our Navy and Vietnam. And the project of which, according to rumors, they have already reworked for normal Kolomna diesels - and not "Zvezdovsky" multi-pot "death to hydroacoustics".
    2. -2
      30 August 2024 11: 59
      It will not be possible to adapt to all the dictates of the times, no matter how hard you try. Here you need a person of no less caliber than Gorshkov to develop a strategy for the role of the fleet in world politics and shipbuilding, but where can you find one?

      It is not a fact that it will be possible to extend the hull by 10 meters without serious developments... We should not forget about the ratio of length x width in hydrodynamics, otherwise our "Atmirals" will build "popovoks"...

      And money, you are right. A lot of money.

      But... shipyards, dry and floating docks are large and varied... let me remind you - the Kyiv/Minsk heavy aircraft carrier was built in Nikolaev not out of love for the Black Sea beaches wassat
      And the working class, shipbuilders - everything was needed yesterday and in large quantities...
      1. +2
        31 August 2024 09: 36
        Quote: Vasily_Ostrovsky
        But... shipyards, dry and floating docks are large and varied... let me remind you - the Kyiv/Minsk heavy aircraft carrier was built in Nikolaev not out of love for the Black Sea beaches wassat

        Mwa-ha-ha... one of the issues of "Gangut" described the history of the construction of 1143 at the ChSZ. The main role in choosing the southern option was played by a competently drawn up estimate for the reconstruction of the plant, in which they forgot to include underwater work - including the widening and deepening of the channel from the plant to the sea.
        Otherwise, the Baltic Shipyard could well have become the builder.
        1. +1
          31 August 2024 09: 49
          Was it ever possible for the Baltic Shipyard to build ships of this class?
          The depths of the Gulf of Finland do not allow such a colossus with such a draft. And the Baltic straits have small depths - for example, the depth of the Sound Strait on the main fairway is from 7 to 30 m, others are 3-5 meters deeper.
          The draft of the pr 1143 ship with standard displacement is 8 m...
          In any case, when this project was being built, it never even occurred to specialists to discuss the Leningrad shipyards. There was talk about the North and the Far East, but logistics were very difficult for such colossi, it was not like building a small missile ship...
          At that time, a meeting on this topic was held at the Dzerzhinsky VMIOLU, and as far as I remember, it was not the only one. Baltika as a potential shipyard for Project 1143 did not come up in any of the reports...

          I think you went too far with the Baltic Plant.
          1. +1
            31 August 2024 12: 09
            Quote: Vasily_Ostrovsky
            The depths of the Gulf of Finland do not allow such a colossus with such a draft
            I went on a cruise from St. Petersburg to the Baltic on a vessel with a displacement of 140 thousand tons. More than an aircraft carrier. As for the draft - I don't know, but the displacement of the Baltic is not particularly limited.
            1. 0
              31 August 2024 12: 29
              Are you sure you're not mistaken about the displacement? After all, it's 140 thousand tons...
              and also in the Baltic...
              Tell me if possible good
              1. +1
                31 August 2024 12: 41
                The ship is Regal Princess (https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/en-ru.ru.cac78333-66d2e491-86a59541-74722d776562/https/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regal_Princess_(2013)). Cruise to the capitals of the Baltic states, from Leningrad, in 2018.
                1. +1
                  31 August 2024 12: 55
                  Yes, a huge ship.
                  True, 140 thousand tons is the gross tonnage (GT) and does not reflect displacement.
                  However, the draft of this ship is actually about 8 m.
                  However, commerce and a military ship are two different things. When passing through the straits, a cruise ship is "just a basin", while a heavy aircraft carrier is the face of the state.

                  And the events regarding the heavy aircraft carrier describe the 1960s and 1970s, while the cruise ship takes place 40-50 years later, which of course is also important.

                  "Gross tonnage (GT), also known as BRT, gross tonnage is the volume of all enclosed spaces on a vessel. Measured in register tons, which are units of volume, not weight. 1 register ton = 2,83 cubic meters, or 100 cubic feet. Only double bottoms, ballast and fuel tanks are not measured; these spaces are not included in GT."
          2. +2
            31 August 2024 13: 17
            At the Baltic and Admiralty Shipyards it is possible to build ships up to 260 m long with a draft of up to 9,5 m. By the way, the organs were built at the Baltic Shipyard.
          3. 0
            2 September 2024 10: 31
            Quote: Vasily_Ostrovsky
            The depths of the Gulf of Finland do not allow such a colossus with such a draft.

            The TARKR Project 1144 looks at this statement with bewilderment. ALED "Arktika" supports them.
            I'll tell you more - in 2012, the ALED "50 Years of Victory" was working freely in the Gulf of Finland, if my memory serves me right, the largest LED at that time. And it was replaced by the ALED "Russia".
            1. 0
              2 September 2024 11: 05
              These arguments certainly have a place to be, but we are talking about the construction of huge objects not today, but in the late 60s - early 70s of the last century.
              I personally was on the Kiev in Severomorsk in 1976 (I hope I'm not mistaken)... I saw big steamships, but such a huge thing amazed the imagination back then...
              We inspected, among other things, the engine room and steam boilers. The feeling was that this was some kind of factory, and not even the smallest one...
              The navigator spent a long time explaining what the problems of the Baltic were, and when they told him who we were and where we were from, he spat and said - you still won't understand, you poor engineers... we were offended and laughed...
              And I remember very well the heated discussions of that time, not today, about the problems with its draft, inertia and maneuverability. The issues of its use in the Baltic were discussed then and were rejected...
              Today you can say whatever you want and post any pictures, but the conversation about these largest Soviet ships is about the period of the 1970-80s.

              Agree, it is not enough to build a ship. It needs to be equipped with all the weapons and technical means, undergo factory tests, then sea and state tests, and test the weapon use issues and the main elements of tactical use within the factory's reach.

              For this type and size of ship, the Baltic is not the most suitable space due to the significant number of restrictions, small depths and spaces.
              I think it's obvious.

              And we shouldn't forget about the logistics issues during construction. Leningrad would need to have a huge amount of metal, components, and other things delivered from different parts of the country. This makes construction more expensive and should correlate with the existing capabilities of the railroad and warehouses. The city has always lacked all of this, and the possibilities for expansion are historically and geographically limited.

              By the way, the Soviet leaders of not only the country, but also the industry and factories, unlike today, understood very well what was being discussed and were the highest professionals, not chatterboxes. That is why everything we are discussing here, and not only in this article, was built and is still used in many ways.

              And what have today's chatterboxes created of their own?

              Once again, to discuss this we need to go back 60-50 years, and not look back at the present day.
              1. -1
                2 September 2024 15: 45
                Quote: Vasily_Ostrovsky
                These arguments certainly have a place to be, but we are talking about the construction of huge objects not today, but in the late 60s - early 70s of the last century.

                ALED "Arktika" was laid down on July 3, 1971 at the Baltic Shipyard in Leningrad.
                The lead TARKR, Project 1144, was laid down on March 26, 1974 at the Baltic Shipyard in Leningrad.
                Quote: Vasily_Ostrovsky
                And we shouldn't forget about logistics during construction. A huge amount of metal, components, etc. would have to be delivered to Leningrad from different parts of the country.

                You might think that before this there was no shipbuilding industry in Leningrad - and ships were not built there. smile
                Logistics issues during the construction of other ships with KTU did not interfere - although the boilers were the same there. And there is no need to transport them - the same LMZ and LKZ will only say thank you for the order for turbines and boilers. For LMZ, the finished products will only need to be floated down the Neva.
                There is no need to transport ship aviation equipment anywhere either - this is the Proletarsky Plant.
                Quote: Vasily_Ostrovsky
                By the way, the Soviet leaders not only of the country, but also of the industry and factories, unlike today, understood very well what was being discussed and were the highest professionals, not chatterboxes.

                Soviet leaders of not only the country, but also the industry and factories suffered from parochialism - both departmental and factory - and were always ready to help their native factory. Plus interdepartmental intrigues, for the sake of which they once almost ruined the heavy aircraft carrier pr. 11435.
                1. -1
                  2 September 2024 16: 27
                  Good arguments, not a discovery and of course known, so I accept them completely.
                  My picture of the situation is still broader.
                  Agree, the Baltic Shipyard would have overextended itself to build both a nuclear icebreaker and an aircraft carrier at the same time. The construction of other vessels and ships had already been agreed upon, so the workload was already too high for Leningrad.
                  Well, as for questions regarding the military component, I have already written about them above.

                  In Nikolaev, logistics had already been established for the very large combat ships of Project 1123, which the shipyard began building in 1962, and therefore Nikolaev was technologically better prepared for Project 1143.

                  In general, the decision about Nikolaev as the builder of project 1143 was quite well-considered. And of course, there was lobbying, but this story did not become decisive.

                  I admit that witnesses of those events at the professional level (management of shipbuilding and the Navy) are laughing at this dispute, knowing it from the inside, so it would be interesting and informative to hear their assessment, instead of our nonsense. lol

                  And our pushing on the pages - well, in general, a view from the outside... I did not build this ship and did not take part in the decision on it, so, as a professional acquaintance with the latest in shipbuilding bully
                  1. 0
                    3 September 2024 10: 48
                    I watched an interview with the chief builder of military ships of the ChSZ in "Gangut"... with the construction of 1143 at the ChSZ everything was very interesting.
                    At first, GSVK stated that Slipway A at BSZ could not support 1143, and that the Leningrad plant was inferior to ChSZ in terms of crane equipment. And literally a page later, he stated that for the construction of 1143, Slipway 0, which was created for the construction of the LK "Soviet Ukraine", had to be reconstructed. That is, there was no ready-made slipway at ChSZ, and for the construction of 1143, the "battleship" slipway after reconstruction was quite sufficient.
                    Now let's remember at which plant the lead aircraft carrier of the project 23 was built. wink
                    And yes, regarding the crane equipment, it's generally funny. Because the crane equipment available at Stapel 0 still turned out to be insufficient - and they had to buy cranes in a northern country, literally next door to Leningrad, and then drag them on four pontoons to the south.
                    1. 0
                      3 September 2024 12: 32
                      I read these memoirs, of course. They really lack the same details from other shipyards, and of course, from the top leaders of the Navy.
                      In memoirs there is always an author’s desire to elevate his role and justify his mistakes, which is why it is better to read from different sides. wink

                      In one of the archives on the Soviet period there were such cool cases on "traitors to the motherland", I have only seen such a design in my dreams, super!!!

                      And after about 15 years - the case is crushed, although it is presented in a less impressive manner, but the point is that the initial case is a direct falsification for shoulder straps and orders. And where is the truth?

                      If you read only one case (it doesn't matter - the first or the second) then it seems to be true. And you can't doubt it, because it is the original documents, interrogations, etc...

                      That's why - you always need to look at your opponent's opinion, even if you don't like it. And you never like it! wassat
                      Best regards, interesting discussion good
                2. -1
                  2 September 2024 16: 43
                  I wrote a detailed answer and accidentally deleted it... what tundra, however...
                  Short:
                  The Baltzavod was already busy at that time, the reconstruction of Nikolaevskoe seemed more profitable, considering the series and plans. Lobbyists were in all directions, the story is well known.

                  Our pushing on the pages is sheer nonsense, I wish I could hear the recollections of the actors (shipbuilding and naval leaders), but that's unlikely... and it's a pity. hi
                  I'm taking my leave for sim drinks
  16. +3
    30 August 2024 08: 41
    Of course, this is just a project.
    Of course, and most importantly, there are many such projects, as well as programs, but for some reason many have not been implemented.
  17. 0
    30 August 2024 08: 56
    The author has interesting reasoning, it seems to be generally competent and correct, but is it really not clear that today any surface ship without strong air defense is simply a disposable target. If we talk about covering the deployment zones of strike nuclear submarines, then in both the near and far zones they can be fully covered by specialized nuclear submarines - fighters. By the way, in the USSR there was such a class of ships - nuclear submarines of the "Lira" project.
    1. +1
      30 August 2024 10: 48
      In the USSR there was such a class of ships - the Lira class submarines.

      It existed, but somehow the big series didn’t work out, maybe there were a lot of problems there, maybe its cost was indigestible...?
      If we talk about covering the deployment zones of strike submarines, then in both the near and far zones they can be fully covered by specialized submarines.

      Do they exist? Are there any projects for them? How many years will it take for them to appear in working quantities in the Fleets??? In addition, the SSBNs' cover must be comprehensive: corvettes, submarines, naval aviation...
    2. +1
      30 August 2024 11: 43
      Not a single submarine, nuclear submarine, SSBN, or SSBN is capable of defending itself against a single Boeing 737 in the R-8A version.
      Only a surface ship can ensure (and protect) the exit of an SSBN from the air within a couple of days.
      1. 0
        30 August 2024 13: 28
        Not a single submarine, nuclear submarine, SSBN, or SSBN is capable of defending itself against a single Boeing 737 in the R-8A version.

        Well, you are not quite right, back in the 80s, floating air defense modules with radar, OELS for target detection and a block with 2-4 homing SAMs for the destruction of anti-submarine aircraft and helicopters were developed for submarines...

        There can be quite a lot of such air defense modules on a submarine, and with their help the boat can avoid pursuit by anti-submarine aircraft.

        In Russia, the patrol zone of strategic nuclear submarines in the Barents and Okhotsk Seas can be provided by long-range S-400 and S-500 air defense systems together with medium- and short-range air defense systems located on the islands along the perimeter of the protected zone.
        1. +5
          30 August 2024 13: 54
          There are no SAM modules.
          They are all in projects.
          And even if they do, they will be inferior and lag 2-3 steps behind the actions of the anti-submarine aircraft.
          There will be no such modules on SSBNs. Especially with radar and 4 SAMs.
          Where are you going to put them on the SSBNs?
          Instead of SLBMs?
          Moreover, there are many...
          This is an alternate universe.

          The air defense systems cannot provide air defense for Crimea.
          And their own, including how many of them were destroyed by the very missiles that they were supposed to destroy.
          And as it turns out, they are not super long-range.
          In reality, there is not a single target shot down at a range of even 150 km.
          And you are going to cover the Okhotsk and Barents Seas with them.
          This is also alternative fiction.
          1. -4
            30 August 2024 14: 04
            The pop-up air defense modules are launched through torpedo tubes and controlled via wire/optical communication lines.
            4 VERBA MANPADS will clear the skies of anti-submarine aircraft and helicopters dropping anti-submarine buoys within a radius of 6 km.
            This system does not work when submarines patrol under the ice.
            1. +7
              30 August 2024 19: 04
              Again.
              The task of the boat is not to shoot down planes, not to be a bogeyman for air defense, but to quietly and unnoticedly go in the depths, without giving anyone a hint of its presence.
              You are trying to convince the people that the submarine should control the airspace and shoot down all threats.
              So.
              To control space, you need a working radar.
              How do you imagine her?
              Well, just like that?
              A radar the size of a washing machine, with reserve buoyancy, dangling from a rope to the waves?
              Accordingly, for this to happen, the boat needs to be raised to a depth of 20-50 meters.
              The radar itself will be a huge giveaway.
              Even if it doesn't work... And if it does work, RTR will detect it 1000 miles away.
              And why do you need such a revealing sign?

              Go ahead.
              For example, an anti-submarine aircraft from Olga's altitude dropped buoys.
              From a height of 8 km and a distance of 10 km, he can see the boat perfectly.
              And throws a couple of torpedoes.

              It won't lower its sonar and hover like a helicopter. It doesn't need that in principle.
              You, with your Willows, won’t do anything at all in this situation.
              The idea of ​​using MANPADS against anti-submarine aircraft was based solely on the tactics of using our anti-submarine helicopters.
              And only helicopters and nothing more.

              Tactics that are 50 years out of date.
              Because ours can’t do it any other way.
              Technology does not allow it.

              Just realize that a modern anti-submarine aircraft, like the Poseidon, is 2-3 orders of magnitude more advanced than our Il-Novellas...
              1. -1
                1 September 2024 08: 47
                The task of the boat is not to shoot down planes, not to be a bogeyman for air defense, but to move quietly and unnoticed in the depths,

                Nobody writes that a submarine should hunt for enemy anti-submarine aircraft, but a submarine should have a chance of survival when it is detected and they are trying to capture or destroy it.
          2. +1
            30 August 2024 19: 09
            You are, of course, right, but having said A, let's say B: how, in that case, will the discussed corvettes help our submarines? If, as you rightly write, our air defense cannot cover strategic air bases and key crossings, then how will these ships be able to fight enemy submarines if they are quickly sunk by enemy aviation, for which a surface ship is a much easier target than a hidden submarine missile carrier?
          3. 0
            31 August 2024 10: 32
            The reason for the low range is not that the designers lied, but simply that these calculations were made for a promotional brochure under the absolute best conditions (a slow, large transport flying at high altitude directly toward the air defenses). To a fighter that can simply dive to the ground or turn away very quickly, you can only be a nuisance, not a danger, unless it gets much, much closer.
            And in my opinion, it is better to adopt the American method of lying about the maximum range, but in a different way. Of course, the A-50 crews had a false sense of security, given the declared maximum range of the Patriot SAM system of 150 km, they had to see for themselves that the Americans were lying...
      2. +1
        31 August 2024 17: 35
        You do not quite understand the problem correctly. The departure of submarines from bases as a problem did not exist before, and does not exist now. And there is absolutely no point in making NATO anti-submarine aviation some kind of miracle weapon. The problem is different, namely, in covering the zones of deployment of attack nuclear submarines. Today, we are forced to bring the borders of these zones (except for the Arctic) closer to our shores, where it is possible to cover the submarines with coastal aviation and light surface forces. The range of missiles is enough to reach everywhere where it is necessary, but this increases their flight time, and accordingly, the chances of interception increase.
        1. 0
          2 September 2024 10: 52
          Quote: bug120560
          You don't quite understand the problem correctly. The departure of boats from bases as a problem did not exist before, and does not exist now.

          Correct. No OVR - no problem. No TSHCHIM - no reason to worry about mines in the fairway - since we don't see them. No MPK - nothing to worry about SSNs at the bases. Well, for the sake of form, we can let the Albatross run around, and then report that everything is clear, the equipment from the time of dear Leonid Ilyich doesn't hear anything.
          It's like pills for tanks. Take the pills and the tank is gone.
    3. -3
      30 August 2024 12: 12
      This is not serious... The Lyra supplemented, but did not replace or make things easier in PLO and OVRE, and in general was built for other purposes.

      Well, and the problems with her reactor are simply too much to bear...

      We absolutely need a full-fledged OVR and PLO brigade, in commercial quantities, and yesterday.
      And to them - the Navy's anti-submarine aviation, and naval aviation in general, and also a lot - several divisions, and in the Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet - two each.
      And to them - stationary systems of hydroacoustic monitoring of the underwater situation with complete coverage of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, rigid sealing of the Bering Sea and Avacha Bay with an extension of up to 200 miles from the coast.
      The same song on SF.
      And also - reconnaissance-reconnaissance-reconnaissance, and not as the current host of a well-known TV program...

      At one time, the Pacific Fleet RTR and special forces as part of the KGB "read" and listened to the entire Pacific Fleet up to Guam and New Zealand and deep into US territory. And even so, in 1982, the Pacific Fleet missed the deployment of the 2nd AUG at the SSBN base in Kamchatka...

      Today we know more or less precisely the location of some of the oligarchs' yachts.
      So - hooray, let's go... laughing
      1. -1
        31 August 2024 17: 58
        The nuclear submarine of the "Lira" project was initially created primarily as a small-sized fighter boat with unrivaled (even today) maneuverability. The speed characteristics of these boats were such that they easily broke away from all types of torpedoes that were in NATO service at that time. And the problem of the project was primarily its price and, as some experts write, the imperfection of the reactors. But much water has flowed under the bridge since then.
    4. 0
      1 September 2024 00: 03
      And what is "strong air defense"? Is the S-400, which was shot down in Crimea by cruise missiles, strong? And the "Pantsirs", which shot down the same Storm Shadow and Himars? As for me, a naval "Pantsir" with "Furke" will be able to fight off an attack. But "Poliment-Redut" will simply double the cost of this corvette, it makes sense to install it starting with a frigate.
  18. 0
    30 August 2024 09: 46
    Timokhin, in his usual style, promotes the star-shaped diesel engines of the Zvezda plant.
    Diesel engines are high-speed, with high specific power and relatively low service life - in general, they are for boats and are not intended for installation on patrol and anti-submarine ships.
    For the weapons system of these ships, the striped bastard should be shot:
    Zrpk shell
    1. Has large dead zones at the forward course angles.
    2. The complex is actually single-channel since the control unit is mounted on a rotary table, by the way, it is not clear whether it is stabilized or not.
    3. The large mass of the complex reduces the stability of the ship.
    4. Shooting accuracy depends on weather conditions.
    5. The launcher is extremely vulnerable if hit by a UAV.
    6. The installation itself is complex and requires a large amount of electricity for the drives.
    7. In case of low temperature and rough seas, the complex is not combat-ready.
    12,7 mm heavy machine gun 6P59 "Kord"
    8.Low rate of fire.
    9. Lack of infrared sight.
    10. Lack of drives and remote control.
    Why are they installing all this?
    What else should be done with the freaks in the navy? Shoot them all without exception. Where is the Russian leadership looking?
    What you need:
    11. TOR SAM system with 2 control posts + 1 detection radar, with the placement of ammunition in universal cells equipped with anti-fragmentation protection and an automatic fire extinguishing system - 1 cell, or 3X3UR TOR or one Kalibr cruise missile, or 1 Uran, or 1 torpedo missile or loitering munition.
    The ammunition supply is formed based on the combat mission and the situation.
    12. AU - 152 mm mortar with shots - controlled HE, shrapnel with remote detonation, diving - GB and UR for hitting surface targets launched through the barrel.
    13. Small-caliber AU two installations based on YaiB or GShG with water cooling and mechanical drives and control system.
    1. +5
      30 August 2024 11: 52
      Quote: Dozorny severa
      11. TOR SAM system with 2 control posts + 1 detection radar, with the placement of ammunition in universal cells equipped with anti-fragmentation protection and an automatic fire extinguishing system - 1 cell, or 3X3UR TOR or one Kalibr cruise missile, or 1 Uran, or 1 torpedo missile or loitering munition.

      And we get to the displacement of 20380. Because the "Tora" BC for the OVR is no less than 32 SAMs. And this is 8-10 universal PUs based on 3M14 that you propose. Plus we need PUs for anti-submarine missiles. And we get a 16-module UVP. Plus a radar.
      And we have a mass-produced corvette. Of which we need about 8 per base (taking into account some of the ships under repair - because they will have to work constantly).
      Will we be able to make at least fifty Project 20380 (4 GVMB fleets + 2 SSBN bases)? wink
      Quote: Dozorny severa
      12. AU - 152 mm mortar with shots - controlled HE, shrapnel with remote detonation, diving - GB and UR for hitting surface targets launched through the barrel.

      It's easier to install RBU. Especially since homing torpedoes don't always work well in shallow water.
      Quote: Dozorny severa
      13. Small-caliber AU two installations based on YaiB or GShG with water cooling and mechanical drives and control system.

      ZAK is needed. To pair with the MD SAM, in which role we can take the missile "Pantsir" (analogous to the Arctic land-based one).

      In general, we need to order Zelenodolsk residents their "Gepard" with a power plant from Kolomna.
      1. -4
        30 August 2024 12: 07
        I think the armor weighs as much as 100 Tora anti-aircraft missiles.
        The mortar is needed to combat UAVs and anti-ship missiles - a sheaf of ready-made tungsten balls will turn any flying object into a sieve.
        It is possible to refuse the PU PLUR.
        The displacement can be increased by 20% by cutting in an additional section - I think this will not pose any problems.
        Yes, it is possible that the "Gepard" with a power plant from Kolomna on diesel engines (2X6000) will give 20-22 knots and that will be enough.
        1. +3
          30 August 2024 15: 24
          Quote: Dozorny severa
          I think the armor weighs as much as 100 Tora anti-aircraft missiles.

          Why compare the assembled ZRPK with just the SAMs?
          You suggested:
          Quote: Dozorny severa
          TOR air defense missile system with 2 control posts + 1 detection radar, with the placement of BC in universal cells equipped with anti-fragmentation protection and an automatic fire extinguishing system -1 cell, or 3X3UR TOR or one CR Caliber, or 1 Uranus, or 1 missile-torpedo or loitering munition.

          That is, the Tora SAMs will be placed in the 3S14. This will require at least 8 cells (I'm afraid we won't be able to handle multi-storey loading and sequential launch of the SAMs). The mass of the 8-cell 3S-14 module is 17,5 tonsThis is without a firing radar, without a BC - bare metal for launching SAMs.
          Quote: Dozorny severa
          It is possible to refuse the PU PLUR.

          If so, then 3S14 is not needed - the standard short UVP "Tora-MF" is enough. In this version, the SAM system can fit.
          But then the Navy will require another "long arm" for the ship - a helicopter (at least a platform for it).
          In general, it turns out to be "Cheetah" again. smile
        2. +1
          30 August 2024 16: 18
          I think the armor weighs as much as 100 Tora anti-aircraft missiles.
          What do you mean "think"? The mass of the Pantsir-M is known, about 10 tons, most of this mass is the GSh-6-30 anti-aircraft guns. You even have the OLS from the Pantsir missing somewhere, as if you are making up your own minds what is there and how
          1. -2
            30 August 2024 18: 03
            Where is the droushka?
            SAM 9M331-168 kg.
            https://bigenc.ru/c/tor-m1-bfdd47
            1. +1
              30 August 2024 19: 12
              Well, for example, the data for the Pantsir-M can be viewed in the export version on the Rosoboronexport website.
              http://roe.ru/catalog/voenno-morskoy-flot/korabelnoe-vooruzhenie/pantsir-me/
              And not to come up with all sorts of nonsense.
              By the way, what kind of torus did you decide to install on the ships? The "dagger" that weighs 40 tons and requires a hundred square meters and which you can't fit into every frigate? Then it would be better to install a redoubt right away. Or are we talking about a torus without a chassis for protecting stationary targets? So how is it better than a panzer, similar limitations
              1. +4
                31 August 2024 09: 41
                Quote from alexoff
                By the way, what kind of torus did you decide to put on the ships? The "dagger" that weighs 40 tons and needs a hundred square meters and which you can't fit into every frigate?

                "Kinzhals" died long ago. They couldn't even be found for "Kulakov" - they had to install "Gibka".

                The ship-based "Tor" is the "Tor-MF", which "Kupol" has been making for ten years on its own initiative. Because the native Ministry of Defense, as it turned out, does not need a specialized ship-based MD SAM system. Judging by the plant's data, they made "Dagger" of a healthy person - with normal cellular UVP instead of a drum monster and light antenna posts. The complex is modular - that is, the number of UVP and radar units for each project can be different.
    2. 0
      1 September 2024 00: 06
      "Thor", as it turned out, is no better than "Shell".
      1. 0
        1 September 2024 00: 52
        Not better for whom or for what?
  19. +2
    30 August 2024 10: 12
    There are both + and -.
    + - can be done relatively quickly.
    - -due to its small size, it will be difficult to operate in rough seas in the northern and eastern seas.
    But the Black and Baltic seas are small, everything is under fire. The small missile ships will still fire from the bay, just bring in Kalibrs. But going out to sea during a mess... is already a risk. If there is more than one helicopter or missile...
  20. -1
    30 August 2024 10: 25
    An engineer's thought: Has anyone considered a non-standard option in the form of "underwater silos"? Extremely exaggerated: we take a submarine's missile weapons compartment + a habitable compartment + a power supply compartment (batteries) and install them at the required depth somewhere in the Pechora Sea. For camouflage, we place 5-10 dummies on each real "submarine". Well, we will also need a service ship(s) with an internal docking chamber, which will allow for movement, maintenance, crew changes and replenishment of supplies.
    Advantages:
    1. Much lower price compared to the APL
    2. Resistance to the use of nuclear weapons.
    3. The need to control and defend a very limited area of ​​deployment.
    4. The ability to lift and move both for the purpose of misleading the enemy and for repairs to the base.
    5. Possibility of use in unmanned (automatic) version.
    6. Difficulty of detection due to minimal thermal output and the presence of false targets.
    There are probably some shortcomings, but I suggest that opponents find them (but please write exclusively about organizational and technical aspects; we'll talk about corruption and other things in another place.)
    1. +1
      30 August 2024 11: 00
      2. Resistance to the use of nuclear weapons.
      No depth charge, even a non-nuclear one, will destroy such an installation. Underwater saboteurs will again work successfully. It will not be difficult to find them with the help of modern search means.
      1. 0
        30 August 2024 11: 37
        We install it at the required depth somewhere in the Pechersk Sea.

        Here you don’t know how to reliably protect mobile ones, and you suggest stationary ones... They will be destroyed first, in 100% of cases.
        Once I read an article where the author suggested to lay down a series of SSGNs based on the mastered Borei SSBN project a little later, only shorter, smaller ones. The cost of such a boat would be quite reasonable for the budget (considering the moderate cost of the Borei and the technological efficiency of the well-established production), which means it would be quite possible to build 10-12 SSGNs within 10-12 years (launching one per year, or even more, if desired), arming them with 1 ICBM launchers or 4/16 cruise missiles. Such an approach would almost double the number of targets that must be tracked by "potential partners", and externally the SSBNs and SSGNs would be difficult to distinguish (after all, the basic design is the same). Issuing more than a dozen Virginias to the US Navy would be a very difficult task, since the rapid obsolescence of the fleet is barely compensated for by the construction, and the "Chinese brother" is not standing still, an ever-increasing number of forces and means are required to contain it...
        1. 0
          2 September 2024 11: 08
          Quote: Doccor18
          I once read an article where the author proposed to build a series of SSGNs based on the developed Borei SSBN project, only shorter and smaller in size.

          This was also proposed here. At the same time, they proposed abandoning the "hybrid hedgehog with a snake "loaf with a pike" project 885 and build instead normal SSNs of smaller displacement and cost - at the expense of abandoning specialized SLCM launchers, which would only be installed on the Borey-KR.
          In general, they proposed returning to the classic Soviet submarine triad: SSBN-SSGN-SSGN.
      2. -3
        30 August 2024 12: 21
        What detection means? If you throw a bunch of false targets around and also sink ships to be scrapped? Also in a limited, tightly guarded area.. Sometimes playing tag and moving them from place to place..
    2. 0
      30 August 2024 11: 58
      Quote: Dmitriy22
      An engineer's thought: Has anyone considered a non-standard option in the form of "underwater silos"?
      If we were to make such an underwater arsenal, we could do it in the Caspian Sea, it is an inland sea, the central and southern part with sufficient depths. If we talk about the Arctic seas, the polar cap, we had an Arctic submarine, Project 941, with good autonomy and comfort for the crew. The submarine could simply be anchored under the ice, where the ice cap covered it from above, and the natural cracking of the ice masked the noise. If there was a desire, there would be opportunities, when there is no desire, they find reasons.
      1. +2
        30 August 2024 12: 11
        Quote: Per se.
        If there is a desire, there will be opportunities; when there is no desire, reasons are found.

        There was an agreement with the US that neither we nor they would do such a thing.
        1. +2
          30 August 2024 12: 16
          How many similar agreements has the US already put the screws on?
          1. +4
            30 August 2024 12: 35
            Quote: Dmitriy22
            How many similar agreements has the US already put the screws on?

            Yes, approximately equally, both we and the US. So what? In your opinion, following the suspension of our participation in the START-3 in February 2023, we will immediately have such underwater mines?
        2. +2
          30 August 2024 13: 33
          It seems that we have also put this agreement aside, having started developing the near-mythical "Skif" rocket, but there is a separate capsule with a rocket and an RTG for power. I don't know how much of it is produced, the Americans are not outraged for some reason
          1. +3
            30 August 2024 13: 49
            Quote from alexoff
            It seems that we also put this agreement to rest by starting the development of the near-mythical "Skif" missile.

            Who knows... The question here is that no one forbids developing it, but it shouldn't have been deployed. And having such a development on hand is very useful, just in case someone wants to break out of the agreement.
            To my shame, I note that I didn’t know about Skif.
        3. +2
          30 August 2024 13: 41
          In connection with the proposed deployment of medium-range missiles in Europe, there was a project to locate underwater platforms at a distance from the US coast.
          But, there was an agreement, there was. Let's put the question differently: can we have submarines in the Caspian flotilla? We don't need an analogue of Project 941, but boats with high autonomy and 2-3 ICBMs?
          Second, what if we don’t scrap the Dmitry Donskoy, but turn it into a polar arsenal boat, rearming it entirely with the same Bulava or containers-inserts with other missiles?
          As for agreements, the US doesn’t give a damn about them as soon as they stop being afraid, but the Anglo-Saxons should be afraid, so that’s why we need to find ways to inflict inevitable retribution on these vile “reptilians”.
          1. +3
            30 August 2024 13: 48
            Quote: Per se.
            Let's put the question differently: can we have submarines in the Caspian flotilla?

            It seems to me that this is how it should be done - since both the INF Treaty and the START3 are now... that, we need to decide through negotiations. Or we go back to how it was (which is quite acceptable for us), but if the enemy in one form or another preserves the INF Treaty - then the underwater mines in Bely and Baikal need to be implemented in reality. And in the Caspian... it's hard to say, maybe we can stick it somewhere there too
            1. 0
              30 August 2024 13: 54
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And in the Caspian... it's hard to say, maybe you can stick it somewhere there too
              There is no NATO in the Caspian, it would be a sin not to take advantage of it. Finally, what about this "Poseidon" and "Burevestnik", why aren't the Yankees outraged and afraid?
              1. +4
                30 August 2024 14: 07
                Quote: Per se.
                There is no NATO in the Caspian, it would be a sin not to take advantage of this

                The same is true for Baikal and Bely - here it is more of a hydrological question, where it is more convenient and where it is more secret.
                Quote: Per se.
                Finally, what's going on with this "Poseidon" and "Burevestnik"?

                Oh, just don't ask me:))))) "What won't people come up with, just to avoid going to the Eastern Front..." (c)
                1. 0
                  30 August 2024 19: 53
                  But the White Sea and Baikal are covered with meter-thick ice. Only the Caspian Sea does not freeze, and it is possible to make underwater silos there.
                  1. +3
                    30 August 2024 19: 59
                    Quote: Fan-Fan
                    But the White Sea and Lake Baikal are covered with a meter of ice.

                    Yes, but it's not that difficult to remove it. Up to the point of containers surfacing with a break in the ice, for example.
  21. +7
    30 August 2024 10: 28
    The author writes on the naval theme many times, and under each article he is tirelessly vilified for no good reason...

    Knowing and understanding the situation "from the inside" a little (probably much less than the author), I would never have taken on writing anything on this topic concerning the modern shipbuilding program. The reason is simple - no publication will pass an article with continuous "bleeping"...
    Of the censored expressions about the intellectual abilities of the high-ranking naval officials who determined the shipbuilding policy, I can only write the word "idiots and scoundrels"...
    I don’t understand how Alexander Timokhin finds so many words for them from the Dahl and Ozhegov dictionary.

    I understand that people don’t want bad news or assessments; that’s how humans are made.
    But there is no Fleet with a capital F in the country. There is an insignificant number of disparate forces and means, which are partially, 20-25 percent of the Soviet period, capable of performing tasks as part of only one fleet, and this is not the Pacific. If the entire ship composition of our Navy is collected in one theater and trained for about 5-7 years, then in terms of composition and capabilities we can say that one theater of military operations is covered from sea directions by about 40%.

    It was not out of stupidity that the Project 667BDR and BDRM SSBNs were modernized in the early 80s to fire from a pier and even from an open dock. The navy leadership understood, as did the entire top military-political leadership of the country, that SOSUS was not just sprats in the Atlantic and Pacific, and they adequately assessed the threat of the possibility of responding to the aggressor with completely unacceptable damage.

    Today, the underwater environment illumination system is one of the fastest growing scientific branches of military construction, perhaps only surpassed by hypersonic...

    For now, the saving grace is that water is not a homogeneous medium; sound does not travel in a straight line there, and research in this area is growing by leaps and bounds.

    We are lagging behind in this too, and in some areas by several decades, although during the Soviet era we were practically equal.

    I won’t even take it upon myself to evaluate specific projects for the PLO and OVR tasks; A. Timokhin does this at a high level, inaccessible to many, thanks to him.

    But his conclusions, which he somehow managed to present in a censored and even literary manner, are absolutely correct.

    PLO and OVR, both in fact and even on the theoretical basis of developing tactics for use - no. Studying open sources about the exercises conducted by the fleet only confirms this conclusion.

    And the fleet is not a smartphone, you can't hide it in your pocket. Therefore, all this dancing with tambourines by the hands of drivers who have completely lost their sense of reality is visible without additional optics and even without specialized education.
  22. +5
    30 August 2024 11: 11
    as for me it's a batva, Karakurt is in fact a bloated boat, no corvette will come out of it hi
  23. 0
    30 August 2024 12: 04
    MPCs are good, of course, but they are weak. This does not mean that they should not be built, but according to official sources, 6 frigates and corvettes have already been laid down on the slipways, and the Amur Shipyard is preparing to build destroyers of Project 22350M. The propulsion plants for them have already been tested, and now they are waiting for deliveries to the shipyards. I hope everything will work out and we will meet the enemy with a good fist.
  24. +2
    30 August 2024 12: 06
    The armor did not help Cyclone and Askold. The author overestimates the capabilities of this air defense
    1. 0
      1 September 2024 00: 35
      Fox, Askold was standing in the port without the armor turned on. Like the cyclone.

      Apparently everything is ok with the generals, our ports are under a magic dome.
  25. VlK
    +2
    30 August 2024 12: 41
    I wonder, what is the point of special hull and superstructure contours that reduce the ship's radar signature, or, for example, a special shape of the gun mount turret for the same purpose, if, in addition, the deck and superstructure are again full of equipment and weapons, starting with Pantsir, which, like Christmas tree decorations, obviously shine in all directions, thus increasing this radar signature?
  26. -4
    30 August 2024 12: 58
    Some news from a parallel universe.
    We need floating batteries to cover coastal infrastructure and suppress enemy coastal defenses in Odessa.
    And here are the ideas of moving submarines to Los Angeles.
    1. 0
      2 September 2024 11: 14
      Quote from Kuziming
      And here are the ideas of moving submarines to Los Angeles.

      Actually, here are ideas on "how to remove 40% of strategic SBCs from the base so that they don't run into the "virgin" on duty right at the exit."
      Because it is the SBC that is currently saving the SVO from developing into something like "Desert Storm" or "Allied Force".
  27. +2
    30 August 2024 13: 04
    2× SM-588 launchers of the Paket-NK anti-torpedo defense system (a total of 8× 324-mm M-15 Lasta anti-torpedoes or 324-mm MTT torpedoes or their combinations)


    On VO they have repeatedly written about the very bulky and difficult to maintain Paket-NK launchers; their reloading is only possible in naval base conditions with a crane.
    If we are going to install 324 mm torpedo launchers on the MRK 22800, then we need an analogue of the light NATO three-tube torpedo launcher, which can be reloaded by four sailors right on the deck using a trolley with a hydraulic
    lift.

    To protect the OVR corvette from sea and air drones, it is necessary to install 4 Narval 12,7mm remote machine gun modules along the perimeter.
    1. 0
      1 September 2024 00: 33
      Shturm, the author knows all this and talks about it constantly. He even mentioned it in this article.
  28. +2
    30 August 2024 13: 13
    The author is right, in the current situation, the surface fleet should be built on the basis of corvettes, frigates with enhanced air defense and anti-submarine warfare, as well as minesweepers. It is necessary to massively introduce drones for reconnaissance purposes in all environments and mine laying.
    The submarine fleet needs to modernize non-nuclear submarines in terms of increasing their underwater range.
  29. 0
    30 August 2024 13: 40
    As of August 2024, 14 Project 22800 Karakurt ships have been built (5 in the fleet), 2 are under construction, 2 have been cancelled.

    There is nothing to stop the 12-16 Karakurts built and those under construction from being converted into OVR corvettes with their basing in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet as part of two OVR brigades of 6-8 units each.
  30. -1
    30 August 2024 13: 56
    All Buyan-M missile ships and patrol ships of Project 22160 should be converted into OVR corvettes
    It doesn't take long, it's not expensive, and the benefits from it would be significant.
  31. 0
    30 August 2024 14: 30
    The article is correct, we need to develop submarine forces. But it is too small for the ocean, we also need to build 20380/385 in the submarine version, they are the ones who should track NATO mapples that are grazing our strategists. In addition, 20380 also has KA-27PL. And 22800 is good, no doubt.
  32. -4
    30 August 2024 15: 34
    There is no point in asking why it was impossible to build something useful with the same money; everything turned out the way it did.
    I didn't continue reading this large and in its own way interesting material. After this pearl, everything the author would write is empty chatter.
  33. -7
    30 August 2024 16: 38
    A defeatist, commissioned article, disguised as an ironic patriot... the narrative, as if sadly and sorrowfully conveyed, is quite understandable... there are problems, but not all is lost...
  34. 0
    30 August 2024 17: 06
    Admirals and shipbuilders understand that the Navy is objectively “running out” of small anti-submarine ships, and the OVR brigades will soon find themselves without an anti-submarine component, this is certainly a positive moment. Moreover, steps have been taken in an absolutely right direction. Based on the small missile ships, a multi-purpose coastal zone ship is essentially being created, which will be significantly cheaper than Project 20380/20385, its near-sea zone analogue. Another positive moment is that all the weapons systems that are supposed to be installed on the Long Karakurt are already “in hardware”. The Navy needed such a multi-purpose ship “yesterday”. The question is, why hasn’t the matter moved beyond models at public events in 5 years? Perhaps there is already technical documentation, but there is no talk of building the lead ship, let alone a series. We hope not to be late.
  35. +3
    30 August 2024 17: 10
    I read the article, the comments and was horrified. A country washed by 13 seas and 3 oceans is building a mosquito fleet. Hooray, comrades!!((
    1. +4
      30 August 2024 19: 01
      this is bullshit, we have the largest country in the world with 11 time zones and we can’t establish civil aircraft manufacturing, seminarian Stalin could, cunning-assed Khrushchev could, but now we just can’t...
  36. 0
    30 August 2024 17: 37
    The Navy's last hope...
    The Navy itself is not the country's last hope, just like the Air Force, for example. It is only a cover, an additional force to the ground forces, because only they are capable of holding the territory, well, or they are not capable, but then the Air Force and the Navy will not save. This is what we should proceed from when assessing priorities. The construction of strategic submarines is not about war, it is now, rather, about politics, i.e. PR, the construction of small missile ships is also PR for now, just mass PR. At least, we can clearly see that the fleet in the Black Sea and, in general, near the coast is critically vulnerable. And we can draw conclusions that it is more important to strengthen and develop for the country's defense now.
    1. DO
      0
      31 August 2024 19: 37
      These corvettes won't make it to Ukraine in time. But they will make it in time for the next war if we start building them now.

      "The next war" could be a hypothetical direct military conflict between Russia and NATO and the United States. Given the rapid military escalation we are seeing today, this conflict could happen within a year or less from now. That is, with such a development of events, no corvettes will be built in time.
      So what should you do first?
      1. Today the main threat to Russia is submarine missile carriers enemy. Therefore, the priority is the means of detecting enemy submarines, and the means of destroying them. Which ones exactly, of course, is up to the specialists to decide. However, given the current lack of a full-fledged surface navy in Russia, it is obvious that these tasks will have to be solved primarily by other means. For example,
      Intelligence service:
      - during a threat period, mass use of hydroacoustic sensors and emitter buoys; transmission of sensor signals can be carried out via a radio channel through UAV repeaters, as well as via a fiber-optic cable; in the case of using a cable, remote high-voltage power supply of the sensors can be carried out via the copper cores of the cable;
      - a network of patrolling optical reconnaissance UAVs (since in a global conflict, reconnaissance satellites will most likely be destroyed first), which will detect not only surface ships and unmanned aerial vehicles, but also the surface trace of submarines moving;
      - A-50 AWACS aircraft will be able to detect enemy surface ships, aircraft and missiles; if an enemy AUG is detected, this will mean that it will definitely be accompanied by a submarine.
      Destruction:
      - mining, including homing torpedoes attacking from ambush;
      - missile-torpedoes, conventional torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, tactical missiles with nuclear warheads, launched from coastal, air, surface and underwater carriers.
      2. For a symmetrical retaliatory/retaliatory-counter strike, it will obviously be necessary to primarily use aviation and land-based ICBMs. The existing sea carriers will have to fire their salvos mainly from under the cover of their own shores.
    2. 0
      2 September 2024 11: 18
      Quote: Conjurer
      The Navy itself is not the country's last hope, just like the air force, for example. It is only a cover, an additional force to the ground forces, because only they are capable of holding the territory, well, or they are not capable, but then the air force and the navy will not save it.

      The problem is that the Navy is now one of the main components of the political-nuclear triad. 40% of the country's nuclear warheads are the fleet's SLBMs. And in order for these nuclear warheads to be taken into account, we must have the technical capability to use them. Not even that - the enemy must be sure that in which case the SLBM will have enough time to launch.
      And for this, an OVR is needed - as a means of ensuring the withdrawal of SLBM carriers from the base and clearing the near approaches to the base.
      1. 0
        3 September 2024 10: 55
        Look at it from the other side. The Americans cannot intercept hypersonic glide vehicles, and will not be able to for a decent amount of time, at the same time, we will not be able to increase the protection of the waters of the Barents and Okhotsk Seas in the foreseeable future to guarantee the exit of our SSBNs. Therefore, it is now more profitable to invest money in the development of mobile ground complexes with these vehicles, and SSBNs are now posing as a threat so that the Americans do not relax. That is, their protection will be strengthened, but the priority now is different.
  37. 0
    30 August 2024 18: 00
    Quote: Monster_Fat
    Personally, I don't understand the passion in the domestic fleet for small-sized vessels with insignificant combat and operational qualities. Just to build more? Or are these the real capabilities of modern shipbuilding in the Russian Federation - only the mosquito fleet and submarines?

    There are no power plants, except for Kolomna diesel engines, so they don’t build anything larger than corvettes. All four 22350s have Nikolaev gas turbine engines.
  38. +1
    30 August 2024 18: 23
    Being a complete amateur in the field of PLO, I dare to ask:
    1) What is the value of the OVR ships in peacetime? Well, if we find enemy submarines, what, will we sink them, or will they also carry out their task, simply to the applause of our corvettes?
    2) How are the OVR ships supposed to be used in wartime under the influence of enemy strike weapons, especially in view of the enemy’s superiority in aviation, unmanned aerial vehicles and unmanned aerial vehicles?
    1. +2
      30 August 2024 19: 17
      Being a complete amateur in the field of PLO, I dare to ask:
      1) What is the value of the OVR ships in peacetime?
      These ships are constantly on combat duty, i.e. they are ready to perform a task at any time. And when any complex is constantly on combat duty, its professionalism is constantly growing
      How OVR ships are supposed to be used in wartime
      To sink already adult surface ships and submarines with all available means. For example, a small missile ship can solve a very big problem. I am also an amateur in naval affairs, but it seems to me that everything is exactly like that
      1. +2
        30 August 2024 19: 33
        Thank you, if the first task is more or less clear to me (I spent the eighties on missions to the Black Sea Fleet and the Pacific Fleet), then with the second one there is a small discrepancy.
        We see how Ukraine, using improvised means, and extremely meager ones at that, has driven the fleet out of its main base. Ships in the area of ​​their BEK, anti-ship missiles and UAVs are forced to simply fight for the right to stay afloat, rather than perform any combat missions.
        So, when confronted by opponents of our SSBNs, we should expect a much greater impact on our bases and ships of the OVR. They have the means. Not to mention that our coastal zone in the Arctic is subject to continuous mining, both with mines and anti-submarine sonars. It would be a shame if, by perceiving the OVR ships as a panacea, we simply multiply training units for peacetime.
        Let me repeat: in my amateur opinion.
    2. +3
      30 August 2024 19: 57
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Well, if we find enemy submarines, will we sink them, or will they also carry out their task, simply to the applause of our corvettes?

      Good evening!
      Their submarines will not fulfill their missions to the applause of the corvettes. Simply put, what is their mission? To attach themselves undetected to our SSBN, which is entering combat. And if the submarines of our sworn friends are detected and monitor its movements, then it will not be difficult to withdraw the SSBN so that it does not intersect with this submarine.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      How are the OVR ships supposed to be used in wartime under the influence of enemy strike weapons, especially in view of the enemy’s superiority in aviation, unmanned aerial vehicles and unmanned aerial vehicles?

      As disposable. Which, nevertheless, can provide the submarine with an exit, even if they die in the process, but without them...
  39. +1
    30 August 2024 19: 23
    Everything goes to nuclear weapons, the rest is a residual principle. Priorities need to be set! Have all the governors been replaced already? This is a priority, and the ships, well, the ships can wait.
    1. 0
      2 September 2024 11: 20
      Quote: Mister Who
      Everything goes to nuclear weapons, the rest follows the residual principle.

      OVR is precisely about nuclear weapons. Anti-submarine warfare corvettes are a means of ensuring the exit of 40% of the carriers of the nuclear warheads from their bases to the ocean.
      1. 0
        2 September 2024 14: 32
        What is the exit of the carriers from the bases to the ocean? )) The carriers, submarine missile carriers, should not be at the bases at all, they should be at sea most of the time, this is the only way they will be saved from rapid destruction, the fact that they (if) are constantly at the bases is already negligence. And I wrote about something else, it was not for nothing that the service life of the governors was extended, they did not have time to replace them in time, the governors are the main striking power of the Russian Federation, the rest is just an addition. Well, for example: missiles, even if Yao, with low power are flying at your base with carriers, what will you cover them with, corvettes? )))
        1. 0
          3 September 2024 11: 30
          Quote: Mister Who
          Missile-carrying submarines should not be at bases at all, they should be at sea most of the time, this is the only way they will be saved from rapid destruction, the fact that they (if) are constantly at bases is already negligence.

          The maximum KON for a SSBN/SBN of a "healthy person" is, if I remember correctly, 0,5-0,6. Short-term. Usually - about 0,3. That is, SLBM carriers spend 50-70% of their lifetime in bases.
          And so that this whole horde, putting itself in order after leaving or preparing to replace its colleagues in position, can be safely pushed out in which case at sea, and an OVR is needed.
          Also, the OVR is needed to make life as difficult as possible for enemy SSNs in the area of ​​bases in peacetime - so that the "virgins" do not take SSBNs for escort right at the exit from the base. How to do this? The tactics have been known since the Cuban Missile Crisis - active hydrolocation, imitation of attacks, dropping all sorts of exploding imitators, in especially difficult cases - RGB or GB.
          1. 0
            8 September 2024 20: 15
            This is depressing, 30% of the crew should be at the base, the rest are on duty (sailing), what it is not able to provide is another question, the boat is strong when sailing, in the port it is death. An attack in case of war will take 5-10 minutes with nuclear missiles, you will not have time to do anything. They will cover squares of km!
            1. 0
              9 September 2024 12: 01
              Quote: Mister Who
              This is depressing, 30% of the crew should be at the base, the rest are on duty (sailing), the fact that it is not able to provide this is another question, the boat is strong when sailing, in port it is death.

              Yes, that's understandable. The problem is that people and hardware won't stand it. CON 0,6 is the US Navy in its best years, the basing and repair of which was incomparable to our Navy. And even that didn't last long, usually it was 0,5.
  40. +2
    30 August 2024 19: 29
    New corvette will save surface forces and the country
    ...
    Because this is the fleet's last chance. And the country's as a whole.

    There's nothing left to say here.
    Autumn, ships are burning in the sky,
    Autumn, I would like to get away from the earth.
    Where sadness drowns in the sea,
    Autumn is a dark distance.
  41. +1
    30 August 2024 19: 33
    Quote: ramzay21
    healthy patriotic forces

    The responsible ministry...
  42. +1
    30 August 2024 19: 51
    Universal ship - there is a fear that the General Staff will always want a ship on hand loaded with cruise missiles, and not anti-submarine missiles.

    It's time to consider China's military-industrial complex as a reserve. Either for the supply of power plants, or even for ships for our equipment.
  43. +1
    30 August 2024 20: 07
    Even if everything is as the author described (number of sonars and so on), the ship is still not very suitable for chasing enemy submarines.
    1. It is necessary to increase the displacement to at least 2 thousand tons: now it will have to operate in the sea, and not in the river.
    2. Where is the helicopter? And it would be good to have a platform for a second helicopter (not for basing, but for arrival-unloading-loading-refueling-flying away). The excuse that the helicopter can also arrive from the shore does not work: then hydrophones can be placed near the shore.
    3. The air defense is not sea-based enough. Is the Pantsir really sea-worthy or will it go blind in the fog and rust all over in a block?
    4. The speed must be more than 30 knots: the enemy can move at up to 30.
    5. We need something against drones. Well, or at least just more machine guns, but not just attach them to the rails, but provide guidance from the sonar, a thermal imager and all that. And let them bring back the RBU.
  44. 0
    30 August 2024 20: 19
    Quote from alexoff
    Then it would be better to set up a redoubt right away. Or are we talking about a torus without a chassis to protect stationary targets? So how is it better than a panzer, similar limitations

    No, it would be better if I gave you a bottle of vodka so that you would leave me alone with the Kinzhal air defense missile system.
  45. +1
    30 August 2024 21: 03
    Thanks to Alexander Timokhin for a very competent, balanced and relevant article about our sad naval affairs... Unfortunately, the author is a hundred times right that we need to start working on the Navy, with the addition of the word "actually"... In the event of a conflict with NATO, submarine missile carriers will be massively "locked" in their bases or will be destroyed while moving to the patrol area, without appropriate support for their exit (transition) from the Navy's aviation and specialized surface forces - this is an axiom of modern warfare at sea... And in order to move all THIS OFF the "dead point" - it is necessary to turn to THIS problem and mobilize the economy, finances, design and engineering "brains" and the organizational talent of engineering and technical workers. But with all this, to put it mildly, very modestly and sluggishly, if we abstract from the cheerful interviews and statements in the media and at various forums and conferences... 30 years of "desperate" construction of capitalism in Russia have not passed without a trace for its naval thought... Smart, literate and devoted to the cause and the Flag naval commanders, officers were forced to either leave the service or were simply "squeezed out" of it under various pretexts, since they were "not in the court" at that moment... And with them, the mind, honor and conscience "left" the Navy, which were quickly replaced by "businessmen" with a capital residence permit, who knew how to "shuffle their feet and carefully "saw" the budget... The "businessmen" did not like to talk about the Navy's shipbuilding program, since there was practically no one left knowledgeable in promising military shipbuilding, "for work", as a rule, projects were approved that were "quick" to implement and with good "exhaust" or "kickback" or "long-term construction" with an annual increase in the cost of components and work, from which a certain contingent of military and civil officials "were on the bread"... So they came to the finish line with what they came with... Perhaps I am a hundred times wrong, but Russia is a maritime power, a power of aircraft carriers, frigates, long-range naval aviation and universal ships of the ocean zone... And a corvette is good for the Baltic, the Caspian or the Volga or Yenisei rivers...
  46. -3
    30 August 2024 21: 09
    Wow, what's going on? The article discussion includes insults to the president and calls for a change of power. During the svo. How is this even ok? What kind of gathering of revolutionaries is this? Maybe it's time to clean up the zip code???
    1. +3
      31 August 2024 12: 00
      Quote: MinskFox
      VO, what's going on? The article discussion includes insults to the president and calls for a change of power.
      Be patient with the truth! There is no cypsota here: try to refute what you don't like with facts. If you can, post it here. If you can't, shut up. Look, they've taken to the fashion of trying to involve the admin resource at the slightest thing you don't like.
      1. -3
        2 September 2024 09: 09
        Who are you to tell me what to do?? You're a boor. People like you were shot in WWII. What's there to refute that during a war the country's top leadership cannot be changed? Refute that? If a person doesn't understand this, he's either a traitor or a degenerate.
        1. -1
          2 September 2024 13: 29
          Dear Fox from Minsk! You probably consider yourself, my dear, very well-mannered, but you "stoop" to insulting.... You shouldn't touch the Great Patriotic War and it is advisable "not to be nervous" about the views of others, even if they are "not to your liking"... And use the advice of Professor Preobrazhensky, in an interpreted form: "..... Don't delve into the domestic media, especially TV, before dinner or before going to bed...." Try to "turn on" an analysis of what is happening based on personal experience or simply, everyday knowledge of the people around you... And you will be happy in Minsk....
          1. -2
            2 September 2024 23: 57
            Something offended you that I am from Minsk. Unlike you, I get my information not from TV or from the producers of Kizlyar Finnish NKVD. Take your advice and think about what criticism of the president and calls for a change of power lead to in wartime. Or do you have tender feelings about the holy 90s, so if you do not defeat 404, this time will seem like heaven to you.
            1. -1
              3 September 2024 19: 57
              MinskFox, Well, why so rude and straightforward... Probably, all your news comes from the Office of Alexander Grigorievich? I envy you... And about the change of power - not a single word in the comments. People "grouse" about the change of the socio-economic system, if you noticed. And these are two big differences, as they say in Odessa... And your last phrase raises doubts regarding Minsk... Smells more like Ukroreikh...
              1. 0
                3 September 2024 21: 41
                If you smell that, get tested for covid. Did you read the same comments as me? The second comment, Ramazai wrote. More to come.
        2. -1
          2 September 2024 19: 29
          Quote: MinskFox
          Who are you to tell me what to do? You're a boor.
          Well, someone has to put you on the right path!
          Quote: MinskFox
          People like you were shot during WWII.
          No, they were shooting at people like you, policemen. Those who are for the boss, not for the country.
          Quote: MinskFox
          What is there to refute that during war the country’s top leadership cannot be changed?
          Look - right now, this very top management is being actively imprisoned. So, it's possible?
          1. -1
            2 September 2024 23: 51
            What are you saying, reread the initial post, it's about the president of the country and the change of power, if you have corrupt generals in power, congratulations. I don't remember anything about the military separation of powers in the thread. How cleverly you speak and define what I'm for, but you didn't guess, moreover, I claim that you're a liar. People like you and those like you are always for everything good and against everything bad. Couch losers, wow, you would show everyone how it should be, but you don't have the strength or brains to achieve anything. And thank God!
            1. -1
              3 September 2024 21: 13
              Hmm... The patient is stoned... Arrives in a state of hallucinations, requires haloperidol in large doses.
              1. -1
                3 September 2024 21: 44
                Do you actually have anything to say? No, then follow your own advice and shut up.
  47. 0
    30 August 2024 22: 41
    There is very little hope for our generals and admirals. We need to change the entire general staff first and then think about development.
    1. +1
      30 August 2024 23: 13
      And who can do this? )))) recourse
      1. +1
        31 August 2024 13: 50
        And who can do this?

        Well, there is experience from 1937-1939.
        The question is how much it will help. Seven skinny cows ate seven fat cows, but they didn't like them...
        1. 0
          31 August 2024 19: 59
          what experience? Whose experience? And what were the results of that experience in '41?
          1. +1
            1 September 2024 06: 35
            [quote]what experience?[/quote]
            Experience of cleaning up the generals
            [quote]Whose experience?[quote]
            Domestic
            [quote]And what are the results of the experiment in 41[/quote]
            Contradictory. Actually, about seven cows - about this. On the one hand, it allowed to start forming a wartime army, on the other - it undermined the initiative of the command in making independent decisions.
            This disease is generally chronic in our country.
            1. 0
              2 September 2024 11: 32
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              On the one hand, it allowed the formation of a wartime army to begin, on the other hand, it undermined the initiative of the command in making independent decisions.

              If only. The first year of war is precisely about initiative in making independent decisions. It's just that if later these decisions were based on existing combat experience, then in the first year they were made in the style of "because I decided so."
              The "carousel in the rear" of the 8th Mechanized Corps was an initiative of the front command, which changed its mission three times in violation of the order of the Chief of General Staff. The absence of the full-fledged 4th Mechanized Corps in the border counterattack was the initiative of Muzychenko, who simply did not give up his corps. The introduction of the 1st Mechanized Corps into battle near Pskov in parts was the initiative of the 14th Army, whose command ignored the order of the Chief of General Staff for a month to send back to the corps the 1st Tank Division, which had been temporarily assigned to them, and when it carried out the order, it took away from the division tanks with a total number equal to a tank regiment.
              And such nonsense continued at all levels. An infantry general could stop a tank battalion from a brigade attached to a neighboring division from bypassing an enemy defense node and order it to attack the enemy head-on. The result was that the battalion was reduced to zero, the combat mission was not accomplished.
              1. 0
                2 September 2024 11: 40
                Things have been even worse there.
                But the main thing is that, unlike in the peacetime army, orders were CARRIED OUT, and for deliberate failure to comply - execution.
                And by the way - the execution of stupid orders from above despite the situation. Inaction in the absence of an order from above, with an obvious need for action.
                In fact, the army switched to real combat work in the summer of 1942, when instead of feats, the solution of the assigned task began to be valued, and no longer at any cost.
                1. 0
                  2 September 2024 15: 23
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  But the main thing is that, unlike in the peacetime army, orders were CARRIED OUT, and for deliberate failure to comply - execution.

                  Nope. Executions were carried out only in the most extreme cases. And usually it was limited to a verbal reprimand. The same Muzychenko continued to command the army.
                  Remember the Moscow offensive - the front command forbids frontal assaults on strong points and tank operations without infantry, but division and brigade commanders continue to act as they are accustomed to.
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  And by the way - the execution of stupid orders from above despite the situation. Inaction in the absence of an order from above, with an obvious need for action.

                  The misfortune of the Red Army in 1941 was not the lack of initiative. The misfortune was the lack of knowledge. For any initiative is only good when it is based on regulations and instructions.
                  The same general who sent a tank battalion head-on against the Germans did so only because it was the only tactical move he knew.
                  The improvisations of German commanders, so beloved by critics of the "lack of initiative of the Red Army", were based on the theoretical knowledge of military educational institutions, 10 years of Reichswehr exercises and two full-fledged military campaigns.
                  But we didn't have time to compensate for 10 years of Voroshilov's relaxation and explosive growth of the army with at least theoretical training. Well, we got what we got...
                  I would like to report that the Chief of the General Staff, when the People's Commissar of Defense was conducting exercises in the Western Military District, asked an operational worker of the 1st Rifle Corps headquarters: "Tell us about the composition of your corps and how many artillery regiments you have." This operational worker could not answer how many artillery regiments the corps had. But, excuse me, he is an operational department worker, he is obliged to know. Why doesn't he know? Who allows him to be an operational department worker and not know the composition of the corps?
                  © Materials of the meeting of the top leadership of the Red Army on December 23-31, 1940
    2. Bee
      0
      3 September 2024 21: 48
      Who should we replace him with? We need to change the personnel policy. And who is in charge of this policy?!
  48. 0
    30 August 2024 23: 11
    Blah-blah-blah... How many letters? Do they pay for the number of characters?
    Could the writer remind us how many Karakurts we have in service since 2015? That's one.
    Two: we'll get an anti-submarine aircraft, like patrol aircraft 22160 - no...
  49. 0
    31 August 2024 02: 07
    But this ship needs to be built for the Russian Navy as well. With a number of changes.
    And preferably faster, so that it doesn’t turn out to be too late.


    In this case we are talking about a project. Whenever they say: "We need it fast and cheap", in reality it turns out to be long, expensive and useless.
    Of course, the navy is needed and must develop in step with the times, but not at any cost, but with detailed development of projects.
    If we think logically, in order to get a quality military fleet, we must first learn to build and develop a merchant fleet. This is the only way to build modern military ships. Without this, it's just money down the drain, as sad as it sounds.
  50. 0
    31 August 2024 06: 27
    Isn't one shell not enough? Without good air defense the ship is just a good target
  51. ada
    +1
    31 August 2024 06: 28
    I would suggest, for the initial consideration of the issue, to determine the time indicator - to date our position relative to the estimated periods and understand how close we are to war. Then, first of all, to begin the selection of mobilization ships for additional equipment in the KOR or MPC, the creation of modular anti-submarine equipment for them and the development of production facilities for their manufacture. Secondly - yes, the adaptation of existing projects in the MPC and the manufacturer. And only thirdly - the selection of a design bureau and the development of a task for the design of a universal ship of a modular type. After all, we must work with an eye to the future and look for new approaches not only in the layout, materials and other elements, but mainly in the concept itself and its architecture, so that the resulting design surpasses the "Albatross" and becomes a multifunctional platform for many years.
    Comrade Bayard is probably right with his proposal to switch to electric propulsion for such ships, to diesel-electric ships, I believe, this of course complicates the design and makes it heavier, but there are also positive aspects, and the most important thing is that we produce them ourselves, which is what he emphasized.
  52. +1
    31 August 2024 10: 21
    "At Army-2024, they showed a ship that could become the salvation of the Navy's surface forces. We are talking about the ship of Project 22800E "Karakurt-E". The ship has changed from a highly specialized strike ship with missile weapons to a multi-purpose ship capable of fighting submarines, while maintaining all the combat capabilities of the Karakurt missile ship."

    To the author... Errors (grammatical) in the text do not affect the perception of information, but they are still distracting.

    How can one ship save the entire surface fleet?! My personal opinion is that it can't.
    You can publish laudatory odes to something every day. You can write every day that another general and businessman were caught for something they stole 5 years ago.
    No super-ship will save the fleet, and no general detained today will save the reputation. The reputation not of the Army, but of investigators, prosecutors, tax officials and politicians.
    Should Russian factories have been protected from imports? Should our compatriots have been helped to return? Should the income and expenses of all, well, all, citizens have been controlled?
    And now they've woken up. They're turning one project into another. They're combing through former military managers with a fine comb. They're closing down businessmen for raising prices without a conscience. And the white and fluffy ones, who were bosses 15 years ago, are still mostly at the helm.
    Emotionally, but when will "officials drive domestic cars"? And about "if you want money, go into commerce, not be a teacher"? Or "in the toilet"?
    We are defending ourselves with all our might, and we will definitely win the tank biathlon.
    Chubais is remembered for privatization and "we have a lot of money!"
    And who said "we don't plan, and we don't intend to", "there's no money, but you hang in there", "they deceived us again", "up to such-and-such a number of enemies, up to such-and-such a number of equipment", "reducing the length of the LBS for improvement", "voluntary assistance from employees of state enterprises"...
  53. -1
    31 August 2024 10: 41
    A bad start is a bad start. God willing, they will actually go into production, and then, maybe, the IL-114 and MS-21 in the anti-submarine version will catch up.
  54. 0
    31 August 2024 11: 11
    The topic is of the utmost importance. The author is competent. But in the end we have a cry of despair. It turns out that the army and navy have everything.
  55. +3
    31 August 2024 15: 51
    Well... A lot of praise has been said to the author, the article and the project. Someone has to ruin the party. :) Let it be me.

    Now I will ask a question that has been nagging at us all for the last two years, but which, it seems, did not bother the ship developers, and still does not bother them.

    What does a ship have against controlled fire ships, aka large anti-submarine ships or sea drones?

    The author is so happy about the ship's anti-submarine capabilities, but could he remind us how many ships Russia has lost recently to enemy submarines? And how many to fire ships? For at least a year, all the "marine" branches of the forum have been breaking spears and fighting chest-to-chest, proposing ways to protect ships from large anti-submarine ships, cursing admirals and developers, and lamenting the inaction of the naval command. But now a new project appears, and what?
    NOTHING.
    Still bare sides, from which brave sailors will, in the tradition of, s...a, the sailing fleet, look for high-speed small targets in the sea and try to hit them with a machine gun developed during the Great Patriotic War, a 100-year-old sight. Well, what can I say, WE DID A GOOD JOB, we took it into account! I hope they at least included a couple of binoculars in the machine gunners' equipment kit, maybe even night vision devices, so that at least something could be seen at night.
    But the 76-mm bow gun pleases the eye, great and mighty. Ceremonial and theoretical. Which in theory can either shoot down cruise missiles or support landing troops. But in practice, for some reason, it is not used in combat, and is only noted at parades. I don’t know, maybe this is such a glorious naval tradition - to carry a useless artillery thing on the bow to give a signal when entering a bay or for some other reason. Let it be so, who am I, a vulgar landlubber, putting the stress on the first syllable in the word “report”. But why not add to this ritual totemic device something truly capable of repelling an attack by a group of large anti-submarine ships? For example, a couple of Bakhcha missile-artillery modules on the sides? Maybe then the Black Sea Fleet ships will be able to go to sea?

    As for diesel engines. Does the author know what state the Zvezda plant is in now? I haven't counted, but I think there have already been about a dozen bankruptcy lawsuits. The plant not only can't produce more engines, it's insolvent in principle. If the developers have staked their bets on this plant's engines, then they are such idiots that there are no words...
    1. 0
      31 August 2024 22: 42
      Someone has to ruin the party.

      Everything is correct. And about the BPK, but there are also aerial drones. They need to be accelerated by something. And about diesels: there are also Kolomna diesels with different decent power.
  56. +1
    1 September 2024 00: 30
    Respect to Timokhin. Good topic. But it would be good to add a sea tor to duplicate the Pantsir. If it fits, of course.
  57. 0
    1 September 2024 06: 55
    The main caliber gun could be a 57mm Derivation SAU gun with gyrostabilization. The use of programmable and controlled 57mm projectiles would provide additional advantages for combating UAVs and unmanned boats.
  58. 0
    1 September 2024 08: 45
    It would also be more appropriate to deploy ZU-23s on board instead of KORDs for more effective combat against the main modern maritime threats - UAVs and unmanned aerial vehicles.
  59. +1
    1 September 2024 13: 53
    "....the new corvette will save the surface forces and the country...." I would like to point out to the respected Alexander Timokhin that powerful countries with access to the seas and oceans HAVE NEVER BEEN SAVED BY CORVETTES, EVEN NEW ONES... A corvette is good for trips "along the coast", to combat maritime smuggling and illegal fishing of seafood, or trips along the Caspian, Volga or Yenisei, even if "Tsirkons" are installed on board.... Oceanic powers need universal combat ships for the ocean zone: frigates, destroyers, guided missile cruisers, aircraft carriers, tank landing ships.... Then, the maritime power will find salvation and happiness....
    1. 0
      1 September 2024 14: 19
      A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step (Confucius)
      1. 0
        2 September 2024 13: 06
        Dear "Ivan Mak_2"! The main thing is that this "step" is not the only one and does not turn into "marking time"... Then "the road of a thousand li", together with Confucius, will turn into another unfulfilled dream and a quote from the works of Confucius...
        1. 0
          2 September 2024 18: 41
          I hope I managed to convey a bit of bitter irony in my comment: the first step should have been taken a long time ago. But here it really seems there is no choice. Even if this corvette is not built, then there is no point in talking about any development of the surface fleet, but as Confucius said: That which cannot change decays.
  60. +1
    3 September 2024 14: 21
    I would like to hope that the Navy command will not miss this chance. Because this is the last chance of the fleet. As well as the country as a whole.

    I wonder what the Navy command did with the chances they had before the small missile ships became their last chance? The question is rhetorical.
    1. +1
      4 September 2024 00: 11
      Dear "jdiver"! If briefly and to the point: "NO-THING..." 1. There were (are) no "skulls" from military shipbuilding. Reference: These "skulls", the level of Academician I.D. Spassky, who has now "passed away to another world" and who were trained by the Higher Naval Engineering School named after F.E. Dzerzhinsky, the shipbuilding faculty, with a competition of 20-30 people for one place - now, no longer exists, as an educational institution, as those academics and professors do not exist... And to make the Russian Fleet from the MRK - "persuaded" the Supreme Court parquet admirals and captain ranks of the "call" of the late 80s - 90s, with the main military-business "quality", in the form of Moscow registration and family ties... And the "skulls" - left themselves or they were carefully "squeezed out" by the "system" ... Remained, in the "clip" "convenient", "reliable", "what do you want", with whom it is convenient to "saw off" the budget, to improve personal life... And the MRK (corvette) is very good in parade formation, on the Neva... True, in the Barents Sea or in the Bay of Biscay, in a 7-8-point storm it is difficult to look at it without tears, and to evaluate the effectiveness its work, in such conditions, without obscene language - is quite difficult... What can a ship, with a "ridiculous" displacement, "hear" in the depths of the sea or see on the radar screen, with a wave of up to 7-8 meters... With such a rough sea, the crew of this "shuttle" in 24 - 72 hours will lose not only the ability to perform their duties, but also the ability to be in a vertical position... And here we are "banging on" about the fight against submarines, NK, aircraft and enemy drones, of various purposes...
  61. -1
    3 September 2024 15: 02
    wink I'll start with something funny wink The author of the article, Alexander Timokhin, has a literary gift: he scared me a few days ago with this article :) "Everything is lost: the plaster is removed, the client leaves ..." - no worse than the horror stories of Stephen King, which it is better not to read, you will be healthier. :) After thinking a little, I remembered my knowledge of our naval history. And even, in the end, I formulated my scientific and technical solution against the Horror of the Killed Nuclear Submarines. Which lies in a completely different plane, in a different dimension, from the construction of protective ships proposed by esteemed A. Timokhin. I found this other solution,
    because I see clearly that A. Timokhin's proposal is LATE and LATE FOR A WHOLE WAR! Most likely a global, missile-nuclear war. Well, really: what significance does the construction of some small 12 semi-destroyers by 2030 have IN THE CURRENT SITUATION!! - when today the enemy is SUCCESSFULLY BOMBING Moscow: half of the capacity of the Moscow Oil Refinery has been hit by a drone and stopped
    plant in Kapotnya, which produces (provided!) about 1/3 of the oil products consumed in Moscow and most of the jet fuel for airports! What do we care about what will supposedly be built for the fleet in 2030? What will we have left in place of the fleets by 2030 - with this method of waging war? In general, after thinking about it, I found another scientific and technical solution for protecting our missile submarines from defeat - before they launch nuclear missiles at the USA and NATO. This solution is quite simple, and insurmountable for Western technologies and gimmicks. At the same time, our industry does not need to do anything. Since it, the current Russian Industry under the current 25-year management - certainly nothing serious
    can't do it and won't do it. Examples: before Putin, we in Russia built and had our own airplanes of all classes, some of the best in the world! After 25 years of Putin, Russia can't make not only airplanes, but also cars: ask - where do "Moskvichs" come from and what cars does AvtoVAZ assemble?
    What can I say: now this sensitive Putin leadership, consisting entirely of associates and medal-bearers like Chubais, has already decided to deprive Russia of rail transport! It has firmly decided to do so - having already practically implemented the destruction of Russian Railways, in contrast to the loud and false propaganda. https://tsargrad.tv/articles/srochno-nuzhen-belousov-na-zheleznuju-dorogu-russkih-proizvoditelej-predajut-v-tylu-v-ugodu-kitaju_1047677
    As for machine tool manufacturing, it's better not to even think about it! In short, there's no need to start building new ships: it's ALREADY LATE. And "building new half-destroyers" by 2030 will just turn into another Theft of the Budget "for Navy ships" by 2030. Look: General Ivanov will soon be released - "it's not his fault", Putin's medal-bearer, "a participant in military operations". They will release him, and apologize to him, as to another Putin comrade-in-arms - MO Serdyukov, and return the money, bring him straight to the Palace of General of the Army Putinsky. And he, Putin's General of the Army Ivanov, together with Marshal Serdyukov, who is specifically at Oboronprom! - will perfectly master this money of yours "for corvettes" by 2030. Somewhere far from the borders of Russia they will build new estates for themselves, receiving new orders from Putin for this....
    So - there is no point in counting on the industrial protection of our nuclear submarines - it is ALREADY too late. But a solution to protect our nuclear submarines has been found. There is no need to build anything for it. I will not reveal further, so that our... um, "supreme fathers-commanders" and this, impenetrable for the USA, nuclear submarine protection, will be screwed up and destroyed. As it happened under Tsar Nicholas II, with a comparable level and quality of governance in Russia to the current government. We recall the court admiral Rozhdestvensky, a rude tyrant and foul-mouthed, who did everything to successfully destroy his entire main Russian fleet in the Tsushima Defeat. Ideally bringing the entire base Russian fleet across 2 oceans! right under the guns and torpedoes of the Japanese fleet. Instead of doing what Senator Dmitry Mendeleyev publicly and loudly called for in advance...
    So, in order not to provoke the current incompetent rulers of Russia, I did not publicly announce the technical solution I had found to protect our nuclear submarines, but wrote it directly, with a link to this article, to esteemed K.V. Sivkov. After all, he is a naval specialist and officer. The answer from esteemed K.V. was not long in coming. Smiling cheerfully, he replied that this solution had been found and implemented in the fleet of our missile nuclear submarines quite a long time ago. Of course, now some people will make frantic efforts to cancel this decision,
    disorganize, and imprison the naval officers involved in it like General Ivan Popov, exile them to an unknown place - like General Surovikin (or better yet, shoot them :)). But, let's still hope for our submarine officers, they, the elite of the navy and technical intelligentsia, are not fools, and not enemies of our Motherland and their families, finally. I think that they will hold out, will not allow themselves to be ruined along with all of Russia by all sorts of heirs of the admirals Rozhdestvenskys and their modern patrons - well, you understand - who we are talking about... lol
    And all we can do is pray to God. If God doesn't help, Russia will surely perish, with such a government.
  62. +1
    3 September 2024 16: 08
    Well, our fleet is in the pen, Putin and his oligarch friends apparently don't need this, it seems they are afraid of scaring their overseas "partners", for the current authorities the main thing is not the result and efficiency, but a beautiful picture and lies, they like to pull the wool over your eyes, defective managers can only ruin, saw up and steal, and as it turns out they don't know how to create, so in individual copies for show.
  63. +2
    4 September 2024 00: 48
    Honestly, the boat turned out good, especially against the background of the barge 22160 with a parade speed of 16 knots at best. Only I would throw out the container, this is some kind of madness with these containers and modularity, which has completely failed in the navy. It would be better to find a place to place 4 VPU for 8 cells for Thor missiles instead. All together they will take up less space, and will be much more useful, especially if you need to land a bunch of small UAVs.
  64. 0
    6 September 2024 08: 07
    Too small displacement. A 2200 ton ship with its own onboard helicopter is needed, i.e. like the Israeli corvette of the Saar 6 project.
  65. +1
    6 September 2024 08: 39
    Already from the first steps, looking at the verbosity and unsystematic nature of the narrative, the author is guessed. and exactly who else could it be - one and only - Timokhin. It's been a long time since there were any cries from the former aircraft carrier sect, which has now rejoined the ranks of general flotophiles.
    in essence - a gluttonous nonsense. again a distraction to a worthless object and an attempt to promote the dissipation of extremely meager resources on unnecessary toys. and this during your time!
    In fact, neither corvettes nor these "RPLS" are needed. The fleet in the war in Ukraine plays the role of a target, and the stability of submarines against NATO fleets cannot be ensured by any measures. Considering the qualitative and quantitative superiority, they will make satellite tracking systems, sow the bottom with passive hydroacoustic sensors, launch underwater drones at any time, etc., etc. No corvettes will help. We should not be clever, but simply stop aping the sea powers, while having the largest land territory. Instead of all these dubious, soda-fueled submarines, build more mobile and silo-based land-based mbrs. And give the money from the fleet to drones.
    It's good that they don't demand an aircraft carrier again. They cut down the sturgeon to corvettes. But the essence is the same.
  66. 0
    8 September 2024 08: 08
    The article says that the new corvette will be able to support the deployment of our SSBNs, protecting them from enemy submarines. The question then is: aren't our multipurpose Yasen-Ms designed for this? Their mission is to fight enemy submarines.
  67. 0
    10 September 2024 22: 29
    Quote: Alexey RA
    The maximum KON for a SSBN/SBN of a "healthy person" is, if I remember correctly, 0,5-0,6. Short-term. Usually - about 0,3. That is, SLBM carriers spend 50-70% of their lifetime in bases.

    Methods of placing missiles can be different, for example, if there is an agreement banning the placement of nuclear weapons on the ocean floor beyond 12 miles from the coast, then within 12 miles from the coast, it is possible to place missiles in launch containers with control by cable from the shore. The container with the missile will be in position all year round, the position can be changed periodically, it is impossible to detect from a satellite in principle. To launch a missile, the container must take a vertical position on the bottom and float, if there is ice on the surface of the sea, the container must break through it, and then the classic mortar launch
  68. 0
    12 September 2024 05: 06
    Flies separately, cutlets separately. It's high time to deprive the Pantsir of guns and double the missile ammo capacity; and leave two places for guns on the sides of the rostra for Swarms or at least AK-230 (at the same time it's much better to fire at the BEC).
    1. 0
      12 September 2024 05: 33
      In addition: if Royev doesn't have one, he'll go back to the AK-630 or at least the AK-230 (at the same time, it'll be much easier to fire at the BEK).
      Regarding the power plant and the movement in general... well, four pumpjets directly from high-speed diesel engines of the only post-Soviet production is, of course, fashionable and youthful, but:
      a) Why the hell is it written everywhere about the near-zero engine life of diesel engines?
      b) the efficiency of such pumps exceeds the efficiency of the propeller only at speeds well above 40 knots, as, may I remember, littoral trimarans made in Incat USA;
      c) the total power of four "halves" married to water jets, instead of three pairs with reduction screws, will reduce the full speed of the units to 25.
      Thus, it is necessary to increase the power output by a couple of hundred tons and try to mold one D49 with a complex gearbox into an extended MO and, most likely, in combination with an aviation-type gas turbine (forget about the originality (tm) with the D71 and M90FR, and remember Perm and convert the newly tested PD-35s after the end of these firing tests into naval ones, like the RR Trent, especially since their power seems to be approximately the same).