Moscow refused An-70

Ukraine, refusing to join the Customs Union, has no right to complain to Russia about the curtailing of bilateral cooperation. This was stated by the Russian ambassador to Ukraine, Mikhail Zurabov, speaking at Rossotrudnichestvo.

“We perfectly understand that if a war in the modern world is not being waged by military means, then this does not mean that it is not being waged. It just turned into an economic form. Wars can become currency, customs, resource. The competitive environment in which we live forces states to use them. The call that Russia addresses to the country, as we assume, in which we have no problem of civilizational dialogue ... It seems to us that together we can bargain for better conditions. But what we hear in response: "You know, we will try, perhaps, ourselves." The leadership of the Russian Federation in such cases says: “Colleagues, we want only one thing from you - clarity. Yourself? So, yourself. Only then no offense, “- said the diplomat.

“I am crammed with concrete examples. Here, there are a number of results that the Russian leadership and the Ukrainian leadership were inclined to interpret as joint success. Well, for example, in the production of aircraft AN-70. Now I will reveal the dynamics to you: at first, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation proposed to purchase 70 units, then 60, and the penultimate time - 16. Now - zero. Because Russia began to produce military transport aircraft Il-476, since any proposal retains the relevance of a certain period. Well, this is how the world works, and this is how my leadership works, ”the ambassador added.

“If within a certain period the answer is not received, Russia is forced to look for an alternative. Today we live with a limited time limit, and this feature in the country I represent in Ukraine is very well understood. But it is not always understood by those partners with whom we interact here, ”Zurabov concluded.

Comments

[domokl]

The second news in two days, when Ukraine was made clear that if you are not a friend, it’s just a neighbor ... What I spoke about yesterday was really voiced today .. And this is not the penny we talked about yesterday .. These are millions of American rubles ...

[Dinver]

The Ukrainian government, and some of the people (as well as a number of countries of the former USSR), for some reason, demand from Russia a political and economic "conversation on equal terms", although it is not difficult to understand that states are in different weight categories and this cannot be, this is like Colombia and USA.

[morpex]

Quote: Dinver

although it is not difficult to understand that states are in different weight categories and this cannot be, it is like Colombia and the USA.

Respected! You are not right. Answer me, siroma, why does Comrade Putin kiss the gums with Merkel, Berlusconi and other Geyropov leaders? One weight category? Or has the geyrope already entered the vehicle? Why such preferences to them? Have you ever thought about this? Take off the blinkers. Do not listen to anyone, try to think logically and you will come to very interesting conclusions ....

[Dinver]

Quote: morpex

Respected! You are not right. Answer me, siroma, why does Comrade Putin kiss the gums with Merkel, Berlusconi and other Geyropov leaders? One weight category? Or has the geyrope already entered the vehicle? Why such preferences to them? Have you ever thought about this? Take off the blinkers. Do not listen to anyone, try to think logically and you will come to very interesting conclusions ....

Look at the account of the Euro leaders: to warm up, the last press conference with Hollande, the Munich speech of the 2007 of the year, the press conference of the last Russia-EU summit, remember the meetings between Putin and Obama. You will see how they are talking with Putin and who worships and fawns before whom, and many of them show that they are frankly afraid of him and behave like schoolchildren. As for your surnames, he apparently has good friendly relations with them.

PS In the world, a dozen leaders who can speak on equal terms with Putin will be typed.

[domokl]

[quote = morpex] why comrade Putin gum kisses Merkel, Berlusconi and other gayrope leaders? [/ quoteYour information is at least incorrect ... Putin is a rather tough politician and doesn’t bother with the others ... However, unlike Ukraine, the West has long understood this and is playing the game according to the rules ... That’s why they have more faith. ..
We have a lot of controversial issues, but we play by the same rules ... They can be changed, but only when a new game begins ... Yanukovych is simply unpredictable ... Which means there are much more risks in Ukraine and there isn’t much faith there not the Russian government, not the Russian people ...

[ultra]

Quote: morpex

Why such preferences to them

Everything is very simple, Europe is the largest trading partner of Russia and the largest investor in the Russian economy! Nothing personal only business!

[morpex]

Quote: Dinver

PS In the world, a dozen leaders who can speak on equal terms with Putin will be typed.

I agree. So it is.

Quote: domokl

Putin is a rather tough politician and doesn’t bother with the rest.

I won’t argue here either. Sometimes I even go too far in relation to Ukraine - for sure .... And from the point of view of a simple Russian, this is good, but for me, a simple Ukrainian, such a policy will come out sideways. Either trade wars, or gas wars .... I understand it intellectually, but in my soul because of such a policy of Putin there is a growing negative amount .... after all, the link in this chain, whatever one may say, is me, a simple Ukrainian ....

Quote: domokl

and there wasn’t much faith left, not among the Russian government, not among the Russian people ...

Faith to whom? If I agree to Yanukovych. I have never had faith in himFor him, his own people are suckers who need to be "bred".

Quote: ultra

Everything is very simple, Europe is the largest trading partner of Russia and the largest investor in the Russian economy! Nothing personal only business!

No comment. This is true ....

[Civil]

yes, but 45 million of the population of Ukraine still proceeds from the fact that they live in a great and powerful country ... and Russia is considered obliged to something ...

[Gluxar_]

Quote: Civil

yes, but 45 million of the population of Ukraine still proceeds from the fact that they live in a great and powerful country ... and Russia is considered obliged to something ...

And another 143 million Russians believe that for the unity of the people, unification with 45 million breakaways is needed, but these 45 believe that someone owes them something for no reason. And what this 45 will do next will not be clear to anyone, including 45 themselves. To get a freebie to eat it and another year to stretch to beg for another freebie?
143 are ready to trade in fairness and give their resources at domestic prices, but for this you need to be inside. It sounds reasonable. Or do you want a little child to run in the yard while the mother makes dumplings and cooks, and then run to grab on the fly, swallow and continue to play with the guys from the neighboring yard. But to go to the store for bread or to wash the dishes is not for him, he is special and everyone should. known position, passed. In the evening, dad comes and removes the belt.

[anton107798]

You don’t understand these Russians ... either they start the plant globally under ANs, now they don’t want to cooperate.
Here is a striking example of how RUSSIA fulfills its terms of the contract, for some reason I did not see where it was written AIRPLANES - FOR A HARDWARE ... and now they are turning back. Yes, and God is with you! You need it, not for us, but no, we will sell it to Asians! the good is to whom.
But Ukraine has done everything, but the Empire is twirling its nose, now there is reason to poke your finger in the direction of Moscow and say that this is an unreliable partner who cannot understand what he needs

[Gluxar_]

Have you seen a firm contract or contract somewhere? There was an intention, that is, goodwill. Today, circumstances have changed. Why feed the traitors? No reason. We have our own transporter and not one. Having the financial opportunity, they wanted to support the neighbors in order to show the right path. They didn’t see the path, they looked in the wrong direction. Now let Airbas sponsor you.

[SCS]

it's time to decide the leadership of Ukraine, with whom it is on the way ....! like women in the leadership is no longer left that would wrinkle so !? or I'm wrong?)

[Sinbad]

Women did not remain, of course, and the peasants (real) did not seem to be visible.

[Vladimirets]

“We are well aware that if a war in the modern world is not waged by military means, this does not mean that it is not waged. It just turned into an economic form. Wars can currency, customs, resource. The competitive environment in which we live forces states to use them. The appeal that Russia is addressing the country, as we assume, in which we have no problem of civilizational dialogue ... It seems to us that together we can negotiate better conditions. But what we hear in response: "You know, we will try, perhaps, ourselves." The leadership of the Russian Federation in such cases says: “Colleagues, we only want one thing from you - clarity. Yourself? So yourself. Only then no offense, ”the diplomat said.

Clearly and without traditional diplomatic equivocations.

[Fortnite]

Quote: Vladimirets

Yourself? So yourself. Only then no offense, ”the diplomat said.
Clearly and without traditional diplomatic equivocations.

Duck and he said about our pensions ... He is how to spit ...

[Gluxar_]

Quote: Vladimirets

Clearly and without traditional diplomatic equivocations.

The watch has already struck midnight. It is no longer possible to pull, especially in the field of military construction. The Ukrainian authorities made their choice, let the people prepare to relax the buns ...

[PROXOR]

Woooot !!! Let the citizens of Ukraine speak here now. Who fought for Soesd and not communal life. When will it reach the Ukrainians? That they do not need anybody in Europe or in the Strip with all their "wealth" !!!!!
One thing is clear, sooner or later, already Russia will have to solve the issue of Ukraine. I don’t remember something about the 7 billion dollars that Ukraine owes to Russia.

[anton107798]

should? for what? if they should, then I don’t see the claim in the arbitration court! what does your boasted government not sue? After all, they said twice already, we do not intend to pay. Not a sucker which you can breed! Bred Belarus, dad!
But they don’t file a lawsuit because a counterclaim is ready, where it is said that Russia bankrupts the treasury with its lawsuits, and arbitration, as you know, takes the side of the one who loses the most. But yours understand this and sit quietly, throw evil gossip into the press, but they don’t bring the matter to court.

[Gluxar_]

NJSC Naftogaz of Ukraine received a $ 7 billion bill from Gazprom, as it bought less gas last year than provided for by the current contract.
http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2013/01/26/6982289/

The shortfall is calculated based on the results of the year. At the end of January, pritenias were exhibited under the current contract. The Ukrainian side has been given time to make a decision, since litigation costs money and this will only increase the amount of compensation. However, the Ukrainians, as always, begin to roar and no longer want a "free market", that is, under a completely European contract. So they begin to cry again and make a fuss. In business, this is not accepted, only they compromise themselves.
There is no longer any lever for the transit state. The Europeans will not intercede. So Russia is the clear winner here. The only question is that "according to the court" 7 billion can turn into a much larger amount. Is there that kind of money in the budget? Russia by pressing this button will send Ukraine to the bottom. When Yanukovych is in power today it is not very beneficial for Russia, hence the lag in the time of making a decision. What's coming in Ukraine in the near future?

[Atlon]

Ukraine, as a capricious bride, chooses a groom for too long ... So you can stay in girls. With a cat in old age.

[VadimSt]

In style - the answer to Chamberlain.
The Ukrainian politico-state elite apparently lost its sense of reality. Assuming that it is better to die standing in front of Russia, they forget that they will not have to stand, but die on their knees - but in front of Europe. However, it is precisely the beau monde who doesn’t have to die or die - the rest of the citizens can shout Ukrainian Banzai (Glory to Ukraine) and survive independently! And this is only the beginning of the consequences, focusing exclusively on the EU.
EU US POMOSHOWS!

[slvevg]

For a long time, everything is clear, the West promised Yanukovych and his family more and, most importantly, non-interference in internal showdowns. Russia offers to cooperate at the state level, you feel the difference: YANUKOVICH and the State !! As we see the concepts are antagonistic, when pronouncing the low word Yanukovych, I have a rage with profuse salivation, now the monitor is now wiped, ugh

[Gluxar_]

Quote: slvevg

For a long time, everything is clear, the West promised Yanukovych and his family more and, most importantly, non-interference in internal showdowns. Russia offers to cooperate at the state level, you feel the difference: YANUKOVICH and the State !! As we see the concepts are antagonistic, when pronouncing the low word Yanukovych, I have a rage with profuse salivation, now the monitor is now wiped, ugh

Well, do not be so dramatic. Nothing serious happened, that’s the problem. Specifically, this example simply shows an audit of military reform in recent years. Why buy co-production aircraft if you can buy your own?

As for cooperation between Russia and Ukraine, it is inevitable. Today, the news about the GTS has passed, there are shifts. At least in rhetoric.

The extreme question is what does Russia really need from Ukraine? First of all, these are of course Russian people. Aircraft, shipyards and pipelines are the twentieth. Moreover, Russian capital already begins to dominate completely by market conditions, and not by political agreements.
It would be nice if the integration went on at an accelerated pace, but you need to pay tribute to reality. Ukraine has its own oligarchs and all their strength is that they are "oligarchs". That is, they have no internal competition. The entry into the CU and the Eurasian integration will simply sweep them away from their homes. Therefore, they will oppose this until the last moment. Even in the conditions of a complete collapse of production and the social sphere, they will pull the last juices, hang up loans for their enterprises, take out everything they can. After all, the walls cannot be taken with you, and in the West life and safety are expensive.

[Larus]

Dovydendrivalis, again showed their "significance", get it and sign. And people will not pay salary from what.

[askort154]

22 years old, Ukraine itself dangles, like ... in an ice hole, and even tries to "lead by the nose" Russia. Enough for us to trample and watch them at this hole. It's time to say - "take your overcoat, let's go home"!

[Aleks28]

Yes, these ukroamerikans already are embarrassed, in general cooperation to turn to a single hair dryer, let the Euro-American banana chew.

[FID]

And I feel sorry ... Sorry for the Slav brothers. If zapadentsev send begging to Europe (only who needs the Nazis there), then there remain sane people. They are not to blame for anything ... And the plane is good. He would do well his niche, work from the ground. Although, I would not pay attention to Zurabov’s words ... They are all Starbolders.

[leon-iv]

I also like the board, but this is politics. We need Ukraine without zapadentsev and their government. For such people just never say that. diplomats are not Rogozin.

FID
But can we produce them by purchasing only engines?

[White]

I read the comments and was very upset. The news seems to be about an airplane, but it turns out to be about politics. And all the comments boil down to the fact that the bad y should creep in and ask for forgiveness to Russia. It's a shame that in most cases Russia is excellently cooperating with the whole world, but in matters with Ukraine it stays in a pose and acts exclusively from a position of strength. Here I immediately remember the Russian proverb "You can't wake up by force." Here, as for me, the danger lies elsewhere, but if all such joint projects are closed, will the last ties of Ukraine and Russia be lost, and what then ..... There are very few real fascists among them that there are very few real fascists that there are no less skinheads in Russia. And I personally understand their desire to go to Europe, they have a border nearby, they see what the standard of living is there and dream of the same for themselves, while in Russia the prospect is more likely to be seen in the distant future.


Especially for leon-iv

You see, you don’t know the geography and don’t know which republics Russia is composed of and what kind of governments there are ...

[leon-iv]

And I personally understand their desire for Europe; they have a border nearby; they see what the standard of living is there and dream of the same for themselves
It's like the Poles of the Bulgarians and Romanians))) lol laughed at.
could the last ties of Ukraine and Russia be lost, and then what .....
then the Ukrainian industry will finally bend and our businessmen will buy leftovers at bargain prices.

[White]

then the Ukrainian industry will finally bend and our businessmen will buy leftovers at bargain prices.
The fact that it is bent, I perfectly understand that our industry is already actively bending. As for buying up, I'm not sure most likely there will be nothing to buy up.

I had in mind a different relationship between states and especially people. If now everything is so tense and bad, then after losing the last binders, everything can become even worse.

[leon-iv]

I had in mind a different relationship between states and especially people.
um, how would you tell, I am married to a. there is no problem. People all beautifully understand that Ukraine is not long left.
Yes, and there were no problems in Ukraine

[Gluxar_]

Quote: leon-iv

um, how would you tell, I am married to a. there is no problem. People all beautifully understand that Ukraine is not long left. Yes, and there were no problems in Ukraine

But this is the main trouble. If they understand and still stand for slaughter, then this is a herd and not a society of sane people.

[domokl]

Quote: Gluxar_

If they understand and still stand for slaughter, then this is a herd and not a society of sane people.

Alas, the last parliamentary elections showed exactly this trend ...

[Gluxar_]

Quote: domokl

Alas, the last parliamentary elections showed exactly this trend ...

This is a tragedy. And most importantly, it’s not clear what to do, or rather it’s clear, but I really don’t want to. The situation is largely deadlock and there is only one real solution - this is social rebellion.
If the people still find the courage and courage to realize that for their owners they are just "cattle" and stand out in the open, they will just come out to the main square of each city and demand ... the only question is what will the people demand?
I see only two requirements.
Pragmatically revolutionary. Sevastopol or the whole Crimea, Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk, Dnepropetrovsk and others will come out. And they will come out en masse so that the question of a possible referendum disappears by itself and will demand autonomy and joining Russia. and they will stand not one day, but as much as needed. That will be the result. However, what is the likelihood of such unity? Moreover, such a decision can only be made by a sane person with an unwashed brain. But the same person understands perfectly well that he personally will not fall manna from heaven from such an act. with such a development of events, he will have to work hard for a long time to "create himself" in Russian realities. However, his children will have a future.

The second option is utopian. In the same way, take to the streets of your cities and demand new power or action from the current one. But this is ephemeral ...
What to demand? from whom ? What is the alternative to orange traitors and blue grabbers? All one porridge. There are no alternatives and no choice, but there is none anywhere else. Though in the USA with their elephants and donkeys, even in Europe. In Russia, no better.
But what can "independent Ukraine" do, even in the most optimistic scenarios? what did she live on and what did she exploit?
Its geostrategic position and Soviet heritage. This is the whole of Ukraine. Yes, it has always been so. There would be no Russia, and instead of it a number of small principalities, then the need for Ukraine would have disappeared by itself. Only a transit position between two civilizations gives weight to Ukraine. But this cannot be infinite. Russia's sphere of influence exceeded the border buffer. Russia directly interacts already with a number of European states, has independent transport corridors, and has internal strength so as not to depend on compromises and the support of its neighbors.
There was no Soviet heritage either, at least it was no longer competitive. So there is no reason for the existence of an independent Ukraine.

Hence the question of bidding and selling Ukraine. Of course, people and land will be sold. And here the question is, who needs it for what?
Russia needs the Slavic people themselves, given the demography they really need, moreover, alive. land is also needed because what has been formed over the centuries is relevant today from an economic point of view.

The West, however, first of all needs Russia not to become stronger. Swallowing 45 million Slavs will not work, capitalists will not develop the economy surrounded by "evil Slavs". They benefit from the extinction of Ukraine, since it is indirectly a part of Russia. And also the collapse of the economy and social explosions, which will damage cooperation with neighbors. Are there many joint ventures between Ukraine and Europe?

[Aleks28]

Quote: White

I had in mind a different relationship between states and especially people. If now everything is so tense and bad, then after losing the last binders, everything can become even worse.

And between people, everything is just fine, only on a trap problems, but they were always there and always will be.

[White]

Well, what kind of nonsense about Westerners Lviv and Ivano-Frankivsk, for example, nowadays popular tourist cities. For starters, you would go there and see everything with your own eyes, have a good rest, and after talking with people your opinion most likely has changed dramatically. Although to some extent there is used such a reputation - for example, in restaurants, etc.
I can also describe the terrible Caucasians in Russia ...

[Aleks28]

Quote: White

Well, what kind of nonsense about Westerners Lviv and Ivano-Frankivsk, for example, nowadays popular tourist cities. For starters, you would go there and see everything with your own eyes, have a good rest, and after talking with people your opinion most likely has changed dramatically.

I served there for 2 years, in Soviet times, and then I visited. So, as I say from my own experience. I won’t say anything for Lviv, but Ternopil Thai Ivano-Frankivsk is real wooey.

[knn54]

Alexander. By and large, these regions were (more than 700 years) under the yoke of Austria-Hungary and Poland, there were no Ukrainians left there either.
In addition, you and we have enough rats among those in power.

[Aleks28]

Quote: knn54

In addition, you and we have enough rats among those in power.

Then someone would argue.

Quote: knn54

By and large, these regions were (more than 700 years) under the yoke of Austria-Hungary and Poland, there were no Ukrainians left there either.

Well, you’ve had 700 years, the Poles themselves recently got out of Russian rule. And as for the people, it’s like someone. There is such a small nation of the Subcarpathian Rusyns (they are from the Old Believers), so they kept their faith and language.

[Gluxar_]

Quote: White

Well, what kind of nonsense about Westerners Lviv and Ivano-Frankivsk, for example, nowadays popular tourist cities. For starters, you would go there and see everything with your own eyes, have a good rest, and after talking with people your opinion most likely has changed dramatically. Although to some extent there is used such a reputation - for example, in restaurants, etc. I just as well can describe the terrible Caucasians in Russia ...

To radicalize the whole society by the examples of individual social groups is a thankless task, but the question is different. What is the alliance with the West, if it can be called so, promises Ukraine both the state and the economy? Ukraine produces some goods that are in demand in Europe? Are barriers and duties hindering its export? or do you hope that you will receive subsidies just like that? Nothing promises, except for the free movement of capital and their legitimization, which is now very difficult to do.
In turn, an alliance with Russia gives not just preferences, but a civilizational choice. The choice is not a lump, but an equal partner. And to all this, there are colossal economic benefits. Boeing and airbuses will never cooperate with Ukraine for the benefit of its aviation industry; on the contrary, they will make every effort to destroy it. Simply because in the European civilization its heroes and "Antonov" are not listed there.

[cherkas.oe]

Quote: White

I had in mind a different relationship between states and especially people.

Andrey, I have in Ukraine 6-cousins ​​and their parents, children, etc. and what do you want to say that my relationship with them will change because of your or our oligarchs? Pipes.

[White]

Pfu-fu, I probably have a poor talent for expressing thoughts, or they simply don’t understand or do not want to understand me.
You gave an example of family ties, it’s a bit wrong. And we and you have already grown up a generation that did not live in the USSR and they do not have reverence for the unity of peoples. And at some point we can go so far as to make no sense returning.
And once again my opinion is equally to blame for this on both sides.

[Aleks28]

Quote: White

And once again my opinion is equally to blame for this on both sides.

I don’t need either side. For Yusha, I am silent at all, and Yane’s puppet at Renat’s what he says, that’s what he does. And notice a single concrete solution, only lengthy promises.

[domokl]

Quote: White

And at some point we can go so far as to make no sense returning.

The fact of the matter is that the constant intra-Ukrainian squabbles are understood by the older generation ... They themselves went through this .. But the young people of the 20-30 summer do not understand what we all the time ... Why we all owe, for which we all owe .. And when we give, they also spit in our faces ...

[domokl]

Quote: White

I had in mind a different relationship between states and especially people. If now everything is so tense and bad, then after losing the last binders, everything can become even worse.

Relations between states have long been spoiled ... even from the gas scandal ... Business? So Russian businessmen in Ukraine, and Ukrainian in Russia have been feeling great for a long time ... They have huge investments and buy anything ... Business, unlike from politicians, knows how to negotiate and tack with interests, if it is good for business ...
And relations between nations? And who in Russia or in Ukraine equalizes relations between governments and people? An absolutely scanty part of the Nazis in the Russian Federation and a slightly larger part (in percentage terms) in Ukraine ...

[Drappier]

One should not dream of a standard of living ..... And work.

[Aleks28]

Quote: White

And I personally understand their desire for Europe, they have a border close by, they see what the standard of living is there and dream of the same for themselves, while in Russia the prospect in the distant future is more likely to be seen.

Well, let’s say you’ll be taken to Europe. What’s next? You’ll become rich right away? Look at the neighbors of your Poles, you’ll eat the last one ... they’ll eat up salt without salt.

[White]

Where did I write that we will become rich? I rather stand on the positions of Russia. But at the same time, I perfectly understand the motives of those people. And personally, it seems to me that Russia (like our government) does not act correctly only exacerbating the situation.

[leon-iv]

And personally, it seems to me that Russia (like our government) does not act correctly only exacerbating the situation.
this is called psychological loosening. And it acts the same for one and for groups of people.

[PROXOR]

Quote: White

Where did I write that we will become rich? I rather stand on the positions of Russia. But at the same time, I perfectly understand the motives of those people. And personally, it seems to me that Russia (like our government) does not act correctly only exacerbating the situation.

Excuse me where the Russian government did not act correctly !!! You already and anyway. And you are all building a virgin of yourself !!!! The customs union was offered to you !!!!! They refused. Excuse me. The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation by a new decree of the Minister of Defense buys equipment produced in the territory of the Russian Federation and the customs union.

[Aleks28]

Quote: White

I personally think that Russia (like our government) is acting incorrectly only exacerbating the situation.

But how much can you make concessions? Give at least something in return!

[FID]

Quote: White

There are very few real fascists among them about "zapadentsy"; it may well be that there are no fewer skinheads in Russia.

It may very well be, but screams of damned thoughts, most often from there.

[cherkas.oe]

Quote: White

. And I personally understand their desire for Europe, they have a border close by, they see what the standard of living is there and dream of the same for themselves, while in Russia the prospect in the distant future is more likely to be seen.

Andrey, why is such an abnormal position we look either west or east and we are waiting for it to be more profitable to go with giblets, well, you created a plane and sell it if you can west.

[White]

But didn’t you see the A-400M?
Actually, I was talking about ordinary people, and everybody puts Ukraine in cancer - Europe, America, Russia, well, China has not yet reached.

[cherkas.oe]

Quote: White

Actually, I talked about ordinary people, and everyone puts Ukraine in cancer

And we all here on the forum of ordinary people and sorry. And Ukraine, no one with cancer, does not put it your "elite" is trying "to substitute for someone else, so that it would be guarded and their loot would not be touched, but this does not happen.

[domokl]

Quote: cherkas.oe

And we all here on the forum of ordinary people and sorry.

It was always a pity ... And now, for some reason, it’s already familiar as it is ... The algorithm of actions of Ukrainians is so known that it’s not even interesting ... Now it’s going to become warm, you can buy less energy, and turn off production a little .. And until the fall .. .August we begin to talk vigorously about the brotherhood of nations and economic difficulties ... We conclude contracts, something that we allow Russian business ... We enter the autumn-winter ...
In December, we begin to revive nationally .. we take some sort of regular delusional laws ... February and March we get a nose offense ... and then it gets warm again ...
And most importantly, in the next election, deeply desired Ukrainians again choose the anti-Russian Rada and again it all starts again ... And so for more than 20 years ...

[Tersky]

Quote: White

There are very few real fascists among them about "zapadentsy"; it may well be that there are no fewer skinheads in Russia.

Andrew, ! I agree with your argument, BUT in Russia skinheads are not allowed to power, and Russia does not elevate them to a political Olympus like in Ukraine. As for the situation of ordinary citizens of Ukraine, there is no second opinion here, I completely agree with you.

[MLUI]

right of the Russian Federation and did. They themselves are to blame. In fact, it’s quite clear that such things are done with ALLIES or with money bags, and

[askort154]

Quote .. White .... Here I immediately remember the Russian proverb "You can't wake up by force."

After many years of observing mutual relations, another saying comes to mind - "for a cunning one ..., there is a threaded bolt"
Sorry, by the way, "Russian" is written with two "s", or "In" Ukraine is
forgot ?

[Gluxar_]

Quote: White

And all the comments boil down to the fact that the bad should crawl and ask for forgiveness to Russia.

What kind of Russophobia? What kind of knees? You yourself are leading to this. You are offered equal and beneficial partnerships. Fraternal partnership. You are like a capricious bride. "First, give me gifts, kiss me, rebuild my house, and I'll think about which of you to choose." This is only true in fairy tales. There is a proposal to jointly build their own civilization - Slavic and Orthodox. This is where the value of Ukraine for Russia lies. Without Uraina, the Russian Federation is a great civilization of hundreds of peoples who have learned to live together strengthening each other. But only with Ukraine and Belarusians can Russia again become an ideological and civilizational project of the Slavs.

This is understood by all opponents of Great Russia and is doing everything to prevent this.

As a result, a clear disposition emerges of what the Russians and their opponents want, but what Ukraine wants is actually not clear. Ukraine is too small and weak to be the Middle Empire between the West and the "North". Historically and mentally, this is a part of Russia, but media-declared it seeks to become a part of the "prosperous West".
At the same time, Ukraine wants to receive preferences from external counterparties for the "old Russian fraternal pull", but wear the tuxedo of gentlemen from London. These are incompatible, moreover, antagonistic concepts. If you are the West, then live according to market calculations, if you are a brotherly people, then do not betray your brother's interests and act according to your conscience.
Based on this alone, we can say that Ukraine and its society are still in some kind of delusional hallucination of the early 90s with advertisements for "pizza hut" and "American battle", as if they still believe that they will have a little patience and they will have everything. No, it will not. Moreover, if something flares up, it will flare up across Ukraine, and not across Poland or Romania, which is actually more historically justified within the framework of civilizational confrontation.

[domokl]

Quote: White

but in matters with Ukraine it becomes a pose and acts exclusively from a position of strength

Andrei, have you read the article carefully? Please re-read ... Russia has repeatedly held negotiations on this project .. And the answer was from Ukraine, we will do it ourselves ... What are the claims against Russia?
Ukraine is so used to not fulfilling obligations, changing the terms of already concluded contracts, etc., that we are simply forced to switch to regular commercial relations in relations ... We will buy what we need at WORLD prices, but we will SELL also what YOU need at WORLD prices ... Oh, for the failure of contracts, we will fine, like all other countries ...

[FID]

Quote: leon-iv

But can we produce them by purchasing only engines?

No. There is such a thing - intellectual property. One must buy documentation and the right to build a license.

[White]

SSI you kind of cook in this environment, but what about An-140 somewhere I read that Antonov is ready to transfer rights?

[FID]

Yes, we are ready to give the right to produce An-140 to the Samara Aviakor plant.

[domokl]

Quote: leon-iv

but this is politics. We need Ukraine without zapadentsev and their government.

What is the policy? This is a matter of Russia's defense capability ...
And on the issue of producing, yes with a half kick ... Even under the USSR, the ANs gathered at several factories in Russia .. Just why? ILs are now the main aircraft, which means there will be much less maintenance problems

[askort154]

Quote SSI ... But I feel sorry ... Sorry for the Slav brothers.

Good afternoon, Sergei! I agree, it's a pity, but there is no bread and bacon on the Cana, and even, like a good An-70, or Zenit, strategic trust between states is at stake, which has clearly not been there for over 20 years. How can one enter into great economic ties with an inadequate state. Yushchenko's rule has borne fruit. The youth (even the eastern ones) no longer have a "brotherly" feeling for Russia. Brains washed out by Western ideology, the further, the more Ukraine will be irrevocable. In the future, either separation or movement to nowhere.
the ties with India are more reliable than with the "brotherly" Ukraine.

[FID]

Hello, Sasha! Perhaps you are right, and this is even more dreary, I love Ukraine ....

[cherkas.oe]

Quote: SSI

Although, I would not pay attention to Zurabov’s words ... They are all Starbolders.

Your thoughts Sergey and God in the ears.

[FID]

Quote: cherkas.oe

Your thoughts Sergey and God in the ears.

I think time will judge. Ukrainian glider, our avionics - a good plane ...

[baskoy]

Accidentally "minus", but I wanted to put a bunch of pluses!

[domokl]

Quote: SSI

And I feel sorry ... Sorry for the Slav brothers.

Do you feel sorry for the Slavic-Russian brothers? Talk about brotherhood is good at a rally or for a bottle of vodka with lard ... But transport aviation is one of the conditions for the country's defense .. Especially with our scale ... Sorry, but the life of a Russian citizen is dearer to me all fraternal feelings for other countries ...

[FID]

And what about transport aviation? 20 years did not build anything, who is to blame? It becomes ridiculous - then gas is an occasion for pressure, then airplanes ....

[Gagarin]

Great plane, but good news! Only mine!

[cherkas.oe]

What good is not here for us to have an aircraft of this class even in development, and the An-12, as long as you don’t repair it, is still obsolete

[Renat]

Well, really, why 2 similar aircraft? Denbgi is just not affordable, but to Ulyanovsk. And there will be a result.

[leon-iv]

No, these are planes of different niches.
Relatively speaking, the An-70 transport along the front line.
And IL-476 from the depths of the country.

[queen]

"INVESTED" money, but now it is not necessary. Everything is not clean there.

[White]

That's what is interesting when they say about the An-70, for some reason no one remembers that it was thanks to this aircraft that the D-27 engine with a screw-revolver developed. Why did I remember this, but because the same power plant was on the Yak-44E, which should have provided it take-off from an aircraft carrier without a catapult, in the light of constant talk about the establishment of aircraft carriers in Russia, this is very important.

[Geisenberg]

The elderberry garden, and the uncle in Kiev. Where is the connection? Someone has developed an engine. Someone has blunted a contract for the supply of aircraft - to each his own.

[Nobody except us]

I sympathize with the Ukrainians, but also understand Russia: we do not need a pro-Western, country-oriented country near the border.

[Rus2012]

Quote: SCS

like women in the leadership is no longer left that would wrinkle so !? or I'm wrong?)

... here is Julia, rather ours

Quote: White

in the light of constant talk about the establishment of aircraft carriers in Russia, this is very important.

... alas, colleague, the times of the VTOL aircraft are long gone and did not promise to return

[Kars]

The result was predictable from the very beginning. The whole problem for Ukrainian day workers is that less can be stolen from aircraft manufacturing than from road repair.
We wouldn’t be fooled with the joint production, we would have gone to the expenses — we would have sold it all over the world. Vryatli Indians would have resisted the purchase if the AN-70 were next to the AN-32 which the Indians would fly to repair.

[Chicot 1]

The new version of the Il-76 is certainly good, but the replacement is also necessary for the veteran An-12. And it is necessary in the very near future, because the fleet of "twelfth" machines has been operated for a long time and quite intensively ... Sooner or later, even the most reliable equipment gets old and becomes unusable ...
So I don’t quite understand the throwings of the RF Ministry of Defense in this matter. We take it, then we don’t take it, then we wait, it’s right here and now ... Most likely, all these talk are the result of political disagreements, and not a balanced and reasonable position ...
But while the Russian side is rushing from one extreme to another, the An-12 is irretrievably aging, and there is no domestic analogue of it. If he appears, then not immediately and not suddenly. Yes, and its appearance will cost far not cheap in monetary terms ... Yes, and time will be lost ...
So is all the fuss described in the material worth it? ..

[PROXOR]

Quote: Chicot 1

The new version of the Il-76 is certainly good, but the replacement is also necessary for the veteran An-12. And it is necessary in the very near future, because the fleet of "twelfth" machines has been operated for a long time and quite intensively ... Sooner or later, even the most reliable equipment grows old and becomes unusable ... So I do not quite understand the throwing of the RF Ministry of Defense in this matter ... Now we take, then we do not take, then we will wait, then right here and now ... Most likely all this chatter is the result of political differences, and not a balanced and reasonable position ... But while the Russian side rushes from one extreme to another, An- 12 is irrevocably aging, and there is no domestic analogue of it. If he does appear, it will not immediately and not suddenly. Yes, and its appearance will not be cheap in monetary terms ... And time will be lost ... So is the fuss described in the material worth all this? ..

Worth !!!!! In which case. Our smaller brothers will merge NATO all the Old information about us and our frequencies - a stranger !!!! And everything else too. WELL, I DO NOT!!!!!!! And there is someone to develop a new machine. In Russia, there are plenty of design bureaus that could do this. At least the same Ilyushintsy.

[Chicot 1]

Eka you just do it, dear PROXOR!!! But to develop an airplane and put it into series is not a plastic model to assemble (although it should be worked on, even to bring it to mind!) ...
I want to remind you the story of two Ilyushin transporters - Il-112 and Il-106. The first is in limbo, and it is not known at all whether it will ever go into series ... And the second, for example, has not gone further than the drawing board, although a car of this class is urgently needed by our BTA. Maybe even more so than IL-76 ...
And will it not turn out that when their last An-12s fly off (and there is not too long to wait!) In our VTA the fleet of cars of this class will be lost? .. And then what? .. Buy used Transals and A400 , as well as in civil aviation they buy second-hand from Boeing and Airbus? ..
And if you are very embarrassed by the fact that the An-70 is a Ukrainian brainchild, then this right-word is empty, since the Ukrainian An-140s received a little earlier to supply our BTA. As you see, the end of the world did not happen from this ...

[evil hamster]

There is such a program MTS aka Il 214 together with the Indians, pedals this subject UAC and it seems like there is some movement. This will be a replacement for the An-12, if it grows together. From the ground, then of course it probably will not work much, but at least the dimension is similar.

[Nevsky]

evil hamster

Keyword - If

[evil hamster]

Well, we'll see, guessing does not make sense. The fact is that there is a program and there are also stakeholders. However, whatever is needed with the MTS / Il214 program, a car in the An12 niche is needed, and this is definitely NOT An-70

[Chicot 1]

Until the first flight (at least a test one!) Of the very IL-214 (at least an experimental one!), It is still necessary to survive (even with the same An-12 remaining in service !!!) ... And about the difficult fate of its brothers - IL-112 (replacement of the An-24/26 line) and IL-106 (an analogue of the American S-17A) I wrote in this thread a little higher and earlier ...
Yes, and the Indians as partners in the aircraft industry I do not cause wild and puppy delight. For in this area they do not fall into the dust even by the Chinese who have become parables in the Gentiles ...

Of course, immense optimism is a very good and positive thing, but by my nature I am realist and pragmatic. And therefore, I don’t wear pink glasses. So something like that, dear Dmitry ...

[evil hamster]

Quote: Chicot 1

Until the first flight (at least a test!) Of the very IL-214 (at least experimental !!), it is still necessary to survive (at least the same An-12 remaining in service !!!) ...

I agree wait and see. However, the first An 70 of the Russian assembly would still survive (I do not mean the political moment to build / not build an airplane, I’m talking about the fact that deploying production at KAPO is also a task to spit more than once and it costs hundreds of oil )

Quote: Chicot 1

And about the difficult fate of his brothers - Il-112 (replacement of the An-24/26 line)

- And what does it have to do with it? The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation stopped financing and began to take AN 140, and in the variant of a passenger aircraft. As a result of many movements, there is still no transporter in this class.

Quote: Chicot 1

Yes, and the Indians as partners in the aircraft industry I do not cause wild and puppy delight. For in this area they do not fall into the dust even by the Chinese who have become parables in the Gentiles ...

It is not the task of the Indians to cause delight and get anywhere; their task is to pay money to get an airplane and swell with pride (well, and gain experience if they can)

Quote: Chicot 1

Of course, immense optimism is a very good and positive thing.

The issue is not optimism or pessimism, but the real prerequisites for creating a transport vehicle under the MTS program.
1. The need and demand for a car of this class is available.
2. Organizations interested in the program and having financial and technological capabilities - UAC, UEC, HAL are available.
3. Technological and production capabilities for the implementation of this project are available (we don’t do UFO tea)
4. potential market - there are air forces of Russia and India
This is all strictly my IMHO but I do not see objective reasons why this project could not be implemented. How it will actually be there, as they say, an autopsy will show ...

[Chicot 1]

The fact of the matter is that the need to re-equip the BTA fleet is not ripe yesterday or today, but a very long time ago. For TTZ for the development of the An-70 was given back in Soviet (!!!) times ...
With regards to the fate of the IL-112 and IL-106, this is due to the fact that recently high-tech projects in the field of aircraft construction in our country have a bad feature of freezing and freezing. Yes, the reason for this is usually one - the lack of funding. But this is not easier ...
And as for the passenger version of the An-140 ... There is nothing to blame for the manufacturer. What was asked, then received. It was a Russian Customer who was dumb, and not a Ukrainian Manufacturer ...
The difficulties associated with mastering the production of a new machine (An-70) cannot be compared with the development, testing, fine-tuning and mastering the production of another new machine (Il-214). Since the second will take "tons of oil" much more than the first ... And time is running out. And this is not a year or two ...
And finally, gentlemen, Indians ... You should not rely especially on them. Including their "sponsorship" ...

And so of course, wait and see. But the fact that officials from the RF Ministry of Defense in this case acted rashly is a fact. The car is good and necessary. It is foolish to lose her because of petty political squabbles ...

[evil hamster]

Quote: Chicot 1

The difficulties associated with the development of the production of a new machine (An-70) can not be compared with the development, testing, bringing to mind and the development of the production of another new machine (Il-214).

Yes it is. But I want to note a couple of points.
1. What would there be. Kiva did not promise how much the An - 70 was ready for the series and brought up could be judged after the Air Force Chief of the Air Force, this should not be forgotten.
2. The customer does not oppose these programs, MTS separately, An-70 separately, which is logical given the size.

And finally, gentlemen, Indians ... You should not rely especially on them. Including their "sponsorship" ...

Why not? Yes, they are complex and demanding customers, but a long and fruitful cooperation suggests that you can work with them.

Quote: Chicot 1

And so of course, wait and see. But the fact that officials from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in this case acted rashly

I’ll wait with conclusions for now, Zurabov, of course, is an official person, but in my opinion it’s impossible to make such a hat, I’ll wait for confirmation from representatives of the Ministry of Defense or industry.

[Chicot 1]

Bringing the series to the process is technological, and it to a large extent also depends on the staff of the enterprise where the aircraft is planned to be produced. And it also depends on those enterprises that will produce component parts of the machine ... In a word, there are many points, but one I still want to note is that the An-70 already has a place in metal, but IL-214 is only a project. And time (I repeat) is running ...
And the Indians ... The Indians are not just complex. They are peculiar (to put it mildly). Collaboration with them was long, it’s true. But I can’t call it fruitful. Especially recently ...
Zurabov is an official person, which means that all statements made by him a priori are official. And by and large it doesn’t matter which of the officials made the statement on the An-70, it is important that such a decision is made, and it (in my humble opinion) is thoughtless ...
And you can always wait with conclusions or just wait. Only the situation itself will not change one iota ...

[evil hamster]

The only problem is that the An-70 Nirazu is not a replacement for the AN-12. It is more than 2 times. A kind of reAn12 undershot76. Therefore, frankly, its niche is not entirely clear, good business is necessary, but frankly for the role of An-12 it is too big and expensive. How it was going to be used is this great mystery is.

[Chicot 1]

At one time, the An-12 itself was something like PereAn-8 (if you follow your logic, dear evil hamster) - more and more expensive. But then it didn’t bother anyone. Even the opposite ...
So the question of the An-70 niche in the transport system is unlikely to become a phenomenon called the "great secret" ...

[evil hamster]

It would be more clear to express my doubts, in my opinion, to openly carry 20 tons, it’s frankly too big, and for 40 tons it doesn’t have enough fuel, as it doesn’t turn out right there.

[Chicot 1]

For him (An-70) as a representative of this class and to fulfill the tasks assigned to him, this is quite enough. Moreover, it was created precisely for this ...

[cherkas.oe]

All Mlyn with these mine ....... and tribesmen do not boil porridge, but sorry to hysteria. There is only one way out; let them bump into it and offer it to the west, and then buy a license for both the engine and the glider. Toko ear must be held in the wind, and then as if the Chinese or Indians would not intercept.

[avt]

Well, as expected after Shoigu’s trip to Kazan and the joyful message of the airline’s leadership that there was no place for the manufacture of the aircraft. You can certainly gloat, but there is no plane in the dry residue and wait for a return from Yanukovych. You do not have to be a super analyst to guess - he will nip the Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol. At least to update the ship's staff to the delight of the Turks.

[cherkas.oe]

Quote: avt

t and wait for the return from Yanukovych. You do not have to be a super analyst to guess - he will nip the Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol. At least to update the ship's staff to the delight of the Turks.

Then it will be necessary to initiate the removal of the Crimea and to hell with him and Yanukovych.

[Nevsky]

Small you, and the remaining 10 million Russian? Southeast of Ukraine! I am ready to highlight the laser pointer targets near Berdyansk!

But alas, there are no troops here, we will meet Russians with flowers Of course, previously 50 Bandera per 100 thousand will need to be calculated ...

[cherkas.oe]

Quote: Nevsky

Small you, and the remaining 10 million Russian?

And only in Crimea we crow, and the remaining 10000000 will arouse

[gladiatorakz]

Quote: Nevsky

you are small, and the remaining 10 million Russians? Southeast of Ukraine! I am ready to highlight the laser pointer targets near Berdyansk!

But alas, there are no troops here, we will meet Russians with flowers, of course, first 50 Bandera per 100 thousand will need to be calculated ..

Ooooh and disgrace! I am ashamed of you, dear. On your land, goals to highlight? Yes, do not need any Bandera with such imperfections and traitors to their homeland.

[Nevsky]

Everyone remained in their own opinion, one thing is clear, the Ukrainian government uses this in the form of firewood for Russophobia. Again, the industrial Southeast of Ukraine, Russian-speaking Ukrainians and Russians will suffer. Again I have to write articles, as yesterday’s Ivanov calls Petrova Mos .... I’m in the Russian city of Zaporozhye (Yekaterinoslav), Kharkov, Dnieper, Donetsk, Odessa, etc. Unfortunately, the authorities are not punished for the political course, but the people.

Also put a minus, justify. Is it really the Russians of the South-East of Ukraine to blame that they were "thrown" by the Party of Regions, which promised a rapprochement with the Russian Federation?

I put the news, not "-" and not "+". If this is a method to put the Ukrainian leadership in place, then it is clumsy.

[FID]

I removed the minus for you. Politicians both at you and at us have one price - thirty. But ordinary people feel bad about it.

[avt]

Quote: SSI

I removed the minus for you. Politicians both at you and at us have one price - thirty. But ordinary people feel bad about it.

It seems to me not only ordinary people, but also the BTA of Russia. Of course, it is tempting to have a line of ILs, from the heavy to the 112th, but for some reason I have big doubts that effective managers and together with the Indians will quickly make the middle peasant instead of the AN-70 and IL-112 will quickly put in a series.

[FID]

IL-112 is not for Indians, but it will not be, unfortunately ...

[Executer]

That’s just as soon as conversations about the relationship between U and P come in - so immediately for some reason it all comes down to one topic - the unity of the Ukrainian and Russian peoples. But if this is so (and here we are not rulers, but ordinary people), since this topic worries us, then this is how it should be: we cannot escape from unity! I don’t want to raise the topic of borders ... But in essence - one people ... But I will turn to people in Ukraine who do not take this spirit in mind: How do we still get along with Buryats, Yakuts (with their diamond heritage !) etc.? Yes, there are graters, or rather sensitive ones, especially in Buryatia in the 90s ... Not to mention modernity. One caliphate is worth it! (he, by the way, did not pass Ukraine). Here is the problem that we will have to together fight. It is a pity that trouble unites us again !!! In the meantime, we obediently carry out the will of the stripes ... And the Ukrainian authorities are especially tense in this matter, unfortunately ...
If you really want European well-being, you also need to introduce European taxation. And Ukraine in this matter for some reason takes a bad example from Russia.

[Byordovvv1]

Yanukovych decided to sit simultaneously on two chairs at once, and the EU and the United States to appease and a little friends with Russia. Well then! Word for the people of Ukraine. It's time to choose which shore to moor. No time to scratch forelock!

[gladiatorakz]

Zurabov drives. Russia will buy the AN-70. Both countries will benefit from this. IL-476 does not solve the need for the AN-70.
Another question, why does Zurabov say this? Who benefits from this wave? Russia or Ukraine? Horseradish. Does it bring countries closer or move it away? It moves away. Get into the history of at least this site - there are hundreds of such statements for several years. What for? Are we so trying to be friends? Difficult method.

[Pelican]

The epic from the An-70 in Russia has nothing to do with its performance characteristics. For domestic competitors do not yet shine. The whole question is the painful choice in which project to invest in Russian or Ukrainian. What is more rational for our air force?

[fenix57]

Quote: Pelican

What is more rational for our air force?

Amid fluctuations in the leadership of Ukraine (where to go, where to go), the choice is obvious.

[Vital 33]

Is there a choice?

[Vital 33]

It is a pity that the news about the plane, but in the end everything is about politics. The car is good, and this is pure revenge for the "stubbornness" of Ukrainian. government. Refusing an airplane, Russia is refusing not from a foreign airplane, but essentially from its own. After all, it was supposed to be assembled in Russia, and it is more than half Russian ... But there is also an ethical question. How can we demand from someone- then doing something, if we just take and "throw" others? And "insolently" ... And how many complaints were against Ukraine, and why are we better? And in the end we will buy some kind of "Spartans" or "Embraers", but just to spite the neighbors ...
It is a pity that there is big politics here, if normal, then two commercial enterprises would have to work quietly (Antonov and UAC) and stamp planes, without impurities of politics.

[gladiatorakz]

Quote: Vital 33

It is a pity that the news about the plane, but in the end everything is about politics. The car is good, and this is pure revenge for the "stubbornness" of Ukrainian. government. Refusing an airplane, Russia is refusing not from a foreign airplane, but essentially from its own. After all, it was supposed to be assembled in Russia, and it is more than half Russian ... But there is also an ethical question. How can we demand from someone- then doing something, if we just take and "throw" others? And "insolently" ... And how many complaints were against Ukraine, and why are we better? And in the end we will buy some kind of "Spartans" or "Embraers", but just to spite the neighbors ...
It is a pity that there is big politics here, if normal, then two commercial enterprises would have to work quietly (Antonov and UAC) and stamp planes, without impurities of politics.

A very sensible comment.

[ultra]

Quote: Vital 33

Refusing a plane, Russia refuses not from a foreign plane, but essentially from its own.

IMHO the epic with the AN-70 resembles a Latin American series, it's time to end even on such a minor note!

[vladsolo56]

why comment, we don’t even know the real situation with this aircraft, who and what they wanted in this project, judging by the article: Ukraine wanted to build a plane together, but sell it only by itself, and not so much Russia as abroad. As it was, in fact, no one knows, and no one will tell us about this.

[krot]

some think right! unity is our strength! the West only needs to quarrel Slavic peoples!

[lilit.193]

In my opinion, we abandoned this plane.