Military Review

BMD-3 based combat vehicles (1 Part) BMD-4

136



Over the years, R & D was started to create a number of combat and special vehicles on the basis of the BMD-3, but for various reasons most of them stopped at the stages of preparing working design documentation and making prototypes for preliminary tests.

From the number of machines on the BMD-3 chassis, put on mass production, we can mention the BMD-4 airborne combat vehicle, 125-mm self-propelled antitank cannon Sprut-SD and the PXM-2 reconnaissance chemical machine. The development of the BTR-MD multi-purpose amphibious armored personnel carrier has also been completed.

Commander BMD-ZK

Preliminary tests commander modification "Bakhcha-K" passed in 1993, the state tests - in 1994, and in 1996, under the designation BMD-ZK, it was adopted for service. The combat crew of the BMD-3K is reduced to five people, radio stations and navigation equipment are additionally mounted on the machine. However, the BMD-ZK was not mass-produced.

BMD-4

Even at the stage of formation of the appearance of the family of combat and special vehicles for the Airborne Forces on the basis of the “90's airborne combat vehicle,” the designers proactively suggested including a “airborne combat vehicle with enhanced armament and defense characteristics”. Its main armament complex would be similar to the BMP-3 (100-mm cannon, 30-mm automatic cannon and 7,62-mm machine gun in a single unit in a double turret) being developed at the same time with the 14-15 t fighting mass. BMD on the six- or seven-chassis chassis - depending on the planned capacity. The project was never implemented, however, the issue of strengthening the BMD’s weapons and unifying it with the weapons of the serial BMP-3 was returned in the second half of the 1990s.

At BMD-4, a single BO “Bakhcha-U” manufactured by KBP is installed.


This time it was a question of a substantial modernization of the BMD-3 with the preservation of the five-rolled chassis and the installation of a double combat compartment with a weapon system similar to the BMP-3. A new combat compartment (combat module) was developed in the Tula Instrument Design Bureau (KBP) as part of the modernization program of the BMP-3. The OCD for the assault landing vehicle with the new unified fighting compartment received the cipher "Bakhcha-U" (which is often referred to as a fighting compartment). KBP turned out to be the leading enterprise in this OCD. Co-executive on the chassis was, of course, VgTZ, where the work went under the direction of the chief designer V.V. Hanakina. The joint work of KBP and VGTZ on this machine was developed from 1997. The experienced combat unit was manufactured by KBP and Tulamashzavod in 2001, and was tested on the BMD-3 chassis.

The 31 December 2004 was put into service with the airborne assault vehicle under the designation BMD-4. In May, 2005 in Tula on the territory of GUP “KBP”, its General Designer A.G. Shipunov solemnly handed over to the commander of the Airborne Forces, Colonel-General A.P. Kolmakov has four BMD-4, and in August of the same year, the 137 th separate parachute regiment (Ryazan) received new machines. The organization of serial production of BMD-4 with the manufacture of new chassis on VgTZ and the gradual modernization of the previously released BMD-3 to the level of BMD-4 during the overhaul was supposed.

One of the first airborne combat vehicles BMD-4 ("960 Object"). The embrasure of the automatic grenade launcher in the front hull sheet is not yet plugged


BMD-3 based combat vehicles (1 Part) BMD-4
BMD-4 afloat


Airborne combat vehicles BMD-4. The built-in armament and the combined sights of the gunner and the commander are clearly visible.


Of course, it was not without "friction". Against the background of the generally positive feedback from the Airborne Command, there were complaints about exceeding the BMD-4 mass limit of 13,2 t, which had previously been agreed with great difficulty for BMD-3 (although such a radical increase in weapons could give a much greater mass increase). Intensive operation of the first three BMD-4 in the 137 regiment revealed a number of problems. In particular, there were claims to the “docking of the tower and the chassis” - mainly to the compatibility of the electrical equipment of the vehicle and the fighting compartment, to the narrow temperature range of limit switches, etc. The quality of workmanship of some parts caused a complaint that required improvements. If the paratrooper officers who exploited the first BMD-4, even joked that in the car "you need to provide another place - for a representative of the plant" (and representatives of KBP and VgTZ were always in parts during trial operation), then to the machines of the next serial the parties were already treated much better. From Ryazan, the BMD-4 was transferred to the 76 10th Airborne Assault Division (Pskov).

BMD-4 retained the chassis and the overall layout of the base BMD-3. In the control compartment on the machine axis there is a driver, to the right and to the left of it are two paratroopers, as well as two universal seats, on which the commander and the gunner are placed during the landing. Behind the department of management there is a fighting department with the placement of the main armament and two crew members in a rotating turret. Behind the tower is the troop compartment with three places for paratroopers, landing and disembarking through the aft landing hatch. The engine compartment (MTO) occupies the back of the case.

The 100-mm 2А70 launcher was assembled in the turret in a single block, the 30-mm 2А72 automatic cannon to the right of it, the PKN or PKTM 7,62-mm machine gun to the left. Designers KBP managed to make the construction installation of various-sized weapons quite compact; block weapons has a length of 3943 mm, the width of the axles 655 mm, weight 583 kg. Vertical weapon pointing angles are from -6 to + 60 °.

2А70 is a 100-mm rifled low-ballistics gun with a vertical wedge gate, with the ability to launch an anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) through the barrel, equipped with a single automatic high-explosive fragmentation projectile and ATGM loader. The machine gun delivers shots from storage locations to the loading plane of the gun-launcher, discharging into the chamber and removing the spent cartridge case outside the fighting compartment. Accordingly, the automatic loader includes a conveyor, mechanisms for loading, loading and opening the ejection hatch. The frame of the conveyor, in which shots are placed in trays, is placed under the floor of the fighting compartment and can be rotated relative to the latter by means of an electromechanical or manual (emergency) drive. The automatic loader reduces gas pollution inside the car and ensures the loading of the gun during 4-6 c.

ATGM together with the gun and control equipment makes up a complex of guided weapons. In its composition can be used ZUBK23-3 rounds with ATGM 9M117M1 or ZUBK10-3 with ATGM 9M117. The control system of both ATGMs is semi-automatic by laser beam. ATGM 9M117M1 "Arkan" with an armor penetration of 750 mm with overcoming of dynamic protection allows to hit modern main combat ranges at ranges of up to 5500 m Tanksincluding M1A1 "Abrams", "Leopard-2" and others (armor penetration of the warhead of ATGM 9M117 - 550 mm without ensuring the overcoming of DZ, the maximum firing range - 4000 m). The ammunition of the gun includes 100-mm rounds with high-explosive shells: 3UOF19 with a shell 3OF70 and 3UOF17 with a shell 3OF32. The optimized shape of the projectile, some of its relief with an increase in the propellant charge in the ZUOF19 shot, made it possible to fire at a range of up to 7000 m versus 4000 m with the ZUOF17, while the power of the ZOF70 shell of the ZUOF19 shot was increased due to the higher filling ratio, and the accuracy of fire was improved.

The automatic gun 2А72 has two-sided tape feed with automated and manual feed switching. Ammunition includes ZUBR6 ammunition with an armor-piercing tracer, ZUBR8 with sub-caliber armor-piercing and ZUOF8 with high-explosive fragmentation projectiles. The firing range of the 30-mm cannon is up to 4000 m high-explosive and up to 2500 m armor-piercing sabot projectiles. The used links of the ribbons of the gun and the machine gun, the cartridge cases of the machine gun are retracted inside the fighting compartment. The armament complex is designed to defeat not only ground (main battle tanks, armored vehicles, manpower openly and in shelters, fire installations, ATGM launchers, etc.), but also low-flying enemy targets (possibility of hitting helicopters with 30-mm cannon or ATGM ).

The mechanized ammunition's ammunition pack consists of 34 unitary 100-mm shots (including four shots from an ATGM), 350 cartridges for 30-mm automatic cannon, and 2000 7,62-mm cartridges for a machine gun. In addition, there are six 81-mm smoke smoke grenades ZD6 (ЗД6М) for smoke grenade launchers. When air transporting and paratroop parachuting BMD-4 was established reduction of ammunition. This is one of the forced measures of "removing" excess mass, since for a landing it is required to reduce the mass of the vehicle from 13,6 to 13,2 t.

A significant innovation and advantage of the new combat unit was the automated all-daily fire control system (FCS), including:
- High-precision combined (day / night) gunner's sight with independent two-plane stabilization of the field of view, optical, thermal imaging and distance measuring channels, information channel for control of ATGM. The multiplicity of the daily channel is 12x, the range of the measured distance along the distance measuring channel is up to 10000 m;
- panoramic sight of the commander with day-night and distance measuring channels, allowing the commander to target the gunner, as well as to conduct aimed shooting with all types of weapons, except ATGM;
- automatic target tracking, combined with thermal imaging and television channels scopes;
- two-plane weapon stabilizer, which provides the minimum guidance speed 0,02 degrees / s and maximum transfer speed 60 degrees / s;
- digital ballistic computer;
- external information sensors;
- gunner and commander consoles, commander and gunner monitors, control panel.

The combined gunner’s sight and the commander’s panoramic sight were developed by the KBP in cooperation with the Temp-Avia Scientific and Production Enterprise (Arzamas), the Polyus Scientific Research Institute (Moscow), and the VOMZ (Vologda). The creation of an automatic target tracking machine was attracted by NKB VS OJSC (Taganrog), a ballistic calculator, control panels, navigation equipment — MIET (Zelenograd), a stabilizer — SKB PA (Kovrov). So, they did not exaggerate in the KBP, saying that the components for the assembly of BMD-4 “are brought from all over Russia”. The components of the JMA are connected by a single information management system. The MSA allows the commander and the gunner to conduct effective shooting from the spot and on the move (including afloat), day and night, significantly enhancing the reconnaissance capabilities of the BMD-4. The ability to conduct aimed fire on the move for lightly armored vehicles is probably even more important than for heavy vehicles, since it helps reduce vulnerability to enemy fire. On the other hand, an increase in the range of high-explosive fragmentation projectile enables the BMD-4 to support the actions of the paratroopers with fire from closed positions.






The tactical and technical characteristics of BMD-4

Gross weight, t .............................................. .13,6
Crew + landing party, people ......................................... 2 + 5

Air transportation ..................... by IL-76 type (M, MD), An-22

Height at working ground clearance, mm ................... 2227
Length with forward cannon, mm ............................ 6780
Housing length, mm ...................................... 6000
Width, mm ............................................... ..... 3256
Ground clearance mm .................... 100-500 (working - 420)

Armament:
launcher launcher:
- brand ................................................ ........ 2А70
- caliber (mm), type ......................... 100, threaded
- loading ........................... automatic loading
- rate of fire (OFS), rds / min .... 10 — 12 gun:
- brand ................................................ ........ 2А72
- caliber (mm), type ........................... 30, threaded

Automatic
- rate of fire, rds / min ............................. 200-300 or 550

machine gun:
- brand ................................................ ....... PKTM
- caliber, mm .............................................. ... 7,62

Weapon targeting angles:
- horizon ............................................... ..360 '
- vertically forward ...................... from -6 'to + 60'

Ammunition:
- 100-mm shots
launcher-launcher with ATGM .................. 4
- shots to 100-mm gun-launcher with OFS ...................................... ....... 34
- cartridges for 30-mm gun ............................... 464
- cartridges for 7,62-mm machine gun ...................... 2000

Armor protection .......................... lopopulnaya

Engine:
- type ............................................. four-stroke 6- cylinder diesel with gas-turbine turbocharger, direct fuel injection, liquid cooling
- brand ................................................ ..... 2B-06-2
- power, hp (kW) ............................. 450 (331) at 2000 rpm
Power density, hp / t ................................. 33

Transmission ........................... hydromechanical with differential pivot mechanism, with hydrostatic transmission
Suspension of road wheels ............ individual pneumatic
Caterpillar................................................. steel, two-ridge, bolt-on gearing, with successive rubber-metal hinges

Track width
main track, mm .................................... 380

Water propulsion,
type ............................................. hydrojet

Maximum speed km / h:
- on the highway ............................................... ...... 67,5
- afloat................................................ .......... 10

Average dry speed
dirt road, km / h ............................... 45 — 50

Power reserve:
- on the highway, km ............................................. .... 500
- by dirt road, km ............................... 350
- afloat, h ............................................. ............ 8

Ground pressure, kg / cm2 ......................................... ...... 0,51

In the fighting compartment, there is also a double-gunner sight PPB-2, hand-held doubles of the weapons. All-round visibility is provided by periscopic observation devices TNPT-2.

The unitized fighting compartment is not for nothing called a “module” - besides the BMP-3 and BMD-3, it was supposed to be installed on the BMP-2 chassis, SPTR Sprut-SD (this car will be discussed below) and the BTR-90.

In the front part of the BMD-4 case, the right-hand installation for the RPX74 light machine gun is retained, the left-hand installation for the AGS-17 grenade launcher has been removed. Airborne and fodder systems for individual assault weapons were preserved.

The hull and turret of BMD-4, welded from aluminum armor alloy, remained bulletproof and mine resistant at the level of BMD-3. The tower is made in the form of a ten-shaped truncated pyramid; its frontal projections are reinforced with steel armor plates mounted apart from the main armor. On either side of the weapon installation, 81-mm grenade launchers of the 902В “Tucha” system were mounted on the turret to launch smoke and lighting grenades. Specialists of the All-Union Scientific Research Institute of Steel, its mechanical part, Tulamashzavod, took an active part in the development of the armored cap of the combat unit.

The installation of a new combat compartment (module) required a number of improvements in the structural groups of the base machine hull. In particular, new pillers (racks) are welded in, and a new sub-bezel ring is installed in the roof of the hull. In addition, when upgrading, the driver's seat, fastening elements for paratroopers' seats, and universal seats for landing the commander and gunner were improved. Some changes have been made to the fastening elements of the personal kit, ventilation equipment, service equipment, communications equipment, spare parts, electrical heating of the seats.

BMD-4 is equipped with a collective system of protection against weapons of mass destruction with a filtering unit and high-speed fire-fighting equipment.

The power unit, transmission, chassis, hydraulic and pneumatic chassis systems are similar to the BMD-3.

The machine is equipped with VHF radio stations P-168-25U (Aqueduct-25U) and P-168-5UV (Aqueduct-5UV), providing radio communications in motion, respectively, up to 20 and up to 10 km, with internal communication equipment and communications P-168 AVSK-B, receiver of satellite navigation systems GLONASS / GPS with the display of data on the monitor of the commander. In the commander version of the BMD-4K machine, an additional radio station and specially equipped workplaces are provided.

Transportation and landing BMD-4 was supposed to be from the same aircraft military transport aviationthat BMD-3. Changes in weight and size characteristics and the general configuration of the BMD-4 compared to the BMD-3 required improvements to the landing facilities. On October 31, 2005, TTZ was issued for the development of landing equipment for BMD-4. This ROC was conducted as part of the creation of unified means of parachute landing of combat and special airborne vehicles with crew and combat crew inside the vehicle. The landing facilities, designated P325 (the main developer is MKPK Universal), are generally similar to PBS-950 for BMD-3 - the degree of unification exceeded 90%.

In 2007, the BMD-4 road tests with airborne assault and field tests were carried out afloat, without flight preliminary tests, in 2008 there were static, master technical tests and physiological tests with two testers inside the machine. The underfunding of works, the haste of carrying out state tests of the machine without landing facilities, the late issuance of the TTZ gave rise to a situation when the BMD-4 was put into service without actually having means of landing it and without carrying out an experimental load in the cargo cabin of the aircraft. The system of development and adoption of a single complex “object - landing craft - military transport aircraft”, which had developed in Soviet times and was justified, was destroyed. However, the production of BMD-4 was limited.

Polygon Dubrovichi, 26 July 2006 g














Author:
Articles from this series:
BMD-3 based combat vehicles (1 Part) BMD-4
BMD-3 based combat vehicles (Part of 2) Sprut
Fighting vehicles based on BDM-3 (part of 3) "Shell", etc.
136 comments
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  1. Reddragon
    Reddragon 1 March 2013 09: 32
    +1
    Many 100mm, few 30mm shells. The predecessors proved that a small-caliber gun is more necessary.
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 1 March 2013 20: 55
      0
      Quote: RedDragoN
      A lot of 100mm, not enough 30mm shells. The predecessors proved that a small-caliber gun is needed ......

      "The fighting compartment of the BMP-3 has become a hit on the international arms market" -
      http://warfiles.ru/show-24701-boevoe-otdelenie-bmp-3-stalo-hitom-na-mezhdunarodn
      om-rynke-oruzhiya.html
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 2 March 2013 00: 35
        +1
        According to the photo in the article.
        It is not BMD-4, but BMD-4m that overcomes the water barrier (it is 3% standardized with BMP-80 and has just been put into service) - the products are not of the Volgograd Plant, but of the Kurganmashzavod.
        1. bask
          bask 2 March 2013 09: 49
          +1
          An armored personnel carrier for the Airborne Forces could look like this.
          On a wheeled tracked track. Well forgotten ,, old ,,
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 2 March 2013 11: 43
            0
            Amusing car invented by the French
  2. avt
    avt 1 March 2013 09: 37
    +4
    Good + Informative, well-illustrated, well-readable. In general, Bahcha is a good idea, there is nothing to rush about with the Terminator, put Bahcha on the old chassis and not bother. Well, the granotometr should still be equipped with a tank launcher, it’s better not to overload the BMD.
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 1 March 2013 20: 58
      +2
      Quote: avt
      .... there’s nothing to rush about with the Terminator, put Bakhcha on the old chassis and not bother ..........

      Like this?
      (Experienced BMPT from Chelyabinsk)
      1. bask
        bask 1 March 2013 22: 10
        +1
        Quote: Bad_gr
        Poultry BMPT from Chelyabinsk

        BMP-T from Omsk .Vev 41 tons. Crew 3 + 7.
      2. avt
        avt 2 March 2013 10: 37
        0
        Bad_gr,
        Vovo, a normal support machine for the advanced.
        Quote: bask
        BMP-T from Omsk .Vev 41 tons. Crew 3 + 7.
        then you don’t need to cut old tanks, they still run normally.
  3. avt
    avt 1 March 2013 10: 58
    +2
    Quote: RedDragoN
    A lot of 100mm, not enough 30mm shells. Predecessors proved that a small-caliber gun is needed

    request Why, then, Shamanov did not stop on a three-ruble note? But he grabbed hold of four and sold it to Bahchi, didn’t know that 30 was better than 100? request Sorry, the problem goes out.
    1. bask
      bask 2 March 2013 09: 16
      0
      BMD-4 M will go into service. Ahead of delivery, Kurgan, On its base it is already possible to mount a whole range of weapons for BMD.
      The main thing is that security was an order of magnitude higher.
      1. Serg812
        Serg812 2 March 2013 22: 36
        0
        There is no air defense module-machine with missiles up to 10-15 km high.
  4. Pimply
    Pimply 1 March 2013 11: 32
    12 th
    Coffin. Coffin at the price of a tank
    1. bask
      bask 1 March 2013 12: 18
      +4
      Quote: Pimply
      at the price of a tank

      BMD-4. One of the best BMD in the world. And cheaper than MBT. T-90 SM twice.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 1 March 2013 14: 28
        -6
        And why is a good coffin better than a cheap one? The one that is threaded and more expensive? The function does not change from this.

        About the tank. They brought the price of an export tank to me, no?
        1. bask
          bask 1 March 2013 14: 51
          +4
          Quote: Pimply
          tank count. They brought the price of an export tank to me, no

          Highly specialized equipment does not happen cheap. But carrots are not ... a chariot. Today you have some kind of non-crafting mood.
          What do you want to say about all this.
          Refuse light armored vehicles. And Wed armored vehicles.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 1 March 2013 15: 26
            -1
            I do not argue that highly specialized equipment is not cheap.
            And I do not consider it necessary to abandon light armored vehicles. I just think that an obsolete car with poor mine protection, bad bulletproof protection, without a KAZ, and not sharpened by today's realities, is a coffin. Because paratroopers in combat conditions have not been thrown away since 1956, but paratroopers regularly howl on this technique.
            1. Hon
              Hon 1 March 2013 16: 00
              +3
              And what should the light infantry fight on? on tanks? The Airborne Forces must perform their tasks, for the other there are tank troops and motorized rifles. Unfortunately, situations often arise when the Airborne Forces have to perform unusual tasks, but this is a question for the command. KAZ creates a danger of destruction of its own infantry, therefore its use on vehicles of this type is unacceptable. The combat module "melon" has the ability to install KAZ.
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 1 March 2013 16: 17
                -2
                Yes, dear. On them. And if they are not there, have a weapon capable of compensating for their absence. But do not try to replace the tank with light armored vehicles - it is not intended for this. Those Germans understand this very well. Therefore, their BMD are small, modest, and are designed to hide behind corners and shelters.
                In the Airborne Forces, BMD vehicles are trying to replace tanks.
                1. Hon
                  Hon 1 March 2013 16: 29
                  +6
                  In the airborne vehicles, BMD machines are trying to replace tanks. [/ Quote]
                  Why did you decide this? If it is possible to install a 100 mm gun, why not do it? There is never much firepower. Just the Airborne should not have tanks by definition. In the IDF airborne brigades, the old M113 and Humvee are generally used, which machines are better suited to perform any tasks than BMD4? Maybe the M113 has better armor? Or is it a minus to have powerful weapons for BMD?
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 1 March 2013 16: 31
                    0
                    Think about why this 100mm is not installed by anyone who is not lazy, although there is such an opportunity.

                    Quote: Hon
                    In the IDF airborne brigades, the old M113 and Humvee are generally used, which machines are better suited to perform any tasks than BMD4? Maybe the M113 has better armor? Or is it a minus to have powerful weapons for BMD?

                    Nobody uses the M113 as a tank.
                    1. Hon
                      Hon 1 March 2013 17: 08
                      +4
                      Because combining such weapons and staying within acceptable weight limits is extremely difficult, in the end they prefer ATGMs.
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Nobody uses the M113 as a tank.

                      Do not believe it, but no one uses BMD 4 as a tank.
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 32
                        -2
                        Quote: Hon
                        Do not believe it, but no one uses BMD 4 as a tank.


                        Oh oh
                  2. TUMAN
                    TUMAN 1 March 2013 18: 10
                    +2
                    Quote: Hon
                    In the airborne vehicles, BMD vehicles are trying to replace tanks. [

                    Guys! You are trying to prove something to a fat, Jewish troll! You are wasting your time, watch how he praises the Germans with their clunkers. He came here for one purpose, to extinct everything Russian in the mud, and to sing Western equipment, especially Israeli! The guy not only stupidly fulfills money, but also enjoys the obsyra goyoy technique! Spit on him, let him go and compose his horror stories, for the same perverts as he is.
        2. Hon
          Hon 1 March 2013 14: 55
          +1
          Quote: Pimply
          They brought the price of an export tank to me, no?

          Have you quoted the price of BMD4? Coffin because armor is weak? These machines are designed for landing. Is there an amphibious armored vehicle in the IDF? Maybe the Israelis learned to lower tanks on a parachute system?
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 1 March 2013 15: 23
            -5
            Here I bring it. 10 BMD-4M units ordered in 2013. The amount of the contract is 608 million rubles.

            “Makarov confirmed that the Ministry of Defense refused to purchase the BMD-4 airborne assault vehicle precisely because of the soldier's low security.“ In fact, the BMD-4 is a version of the BMP-3, no protection - again everything is at the top, but it costs more than a tank. No matter how we looked at this car, we do not look at it, "said Makarov."

            And what, that these machines are designed for landing? When was the military landing? 70 years ago? But there are plenty of situations when the Airborne Forces are fighting on poorly protected vehicles.

            Quote: Hon
            Maybe the Israelis learned to lower tanks on a parachute system?


            BMD-4 - not so. Coffin
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 15: 29
              +4
              Quote: Pimply

              "Makarov confirmed that the Ministry of Defense refused to purchase the BMD-4 airborne combat vehicle

              Well, for you, Zhenya Makarov and Serdyukov are untouchable authorities, there’s even no comment laughing
              Quote: Pimply
              BMD-4 - not so. Coffin

              You know better, Sem Shamanov, you're from birth in the Airborne Forces wassat
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 1 March 2013 15: 43
                -3
                There are no untouchables, Sash. Life flows and changes.
                Under Makarov and Serdyukov, the first really serious reform was launched, many of which I consider correct. And I'm sorry BMD-4M, I think the coffin.
                Shamans are deeply not pleasant to me. And if you begin to remember him as a military general, I recall that Grachev was also a military general, and had a star of a hero, and also was a paratrooper.
                Shamans for the sake of their interests sent special forces of the Airborne Forces subordinate to him to fight for the factory. It's a shame.
                Shamans careerist and interest. He was the head of the administration when interesting career prospects appeared with options for the NHS and the Minister of Defense - he returned to the army.
                1. Alexander Romanov
                  Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 16: 00
                  +4
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Under Makarov and Serdyukov, the first really serious reform was launched, many of which I consider to be the right ones.

                  I have no doubt that you think so.
                  Quote: Pimply
                  And I'm sorry BMD-4M, I think the coffin.

                  And when in what comments did you consider the weapons produced in Russia to be good, here is a foreign yes -super wink
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Shamans are deeply not pleasant to me.

                  Makarov and Serdyukov also did not like him laughing
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Shamans for the sake of their interests sent special forces of the Airborne Forces subordinate to him to fight for the factory. It's a shame

                  You already said this, let's do something new. Your vis-a-vis Serdyukov was stealing billions, he's done wink
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Shamans careerist and interest.

                  Each of us has our own heroes! You have Makarov, and I have Shamans hi
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 1 March 2013 16: 24
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Romanov
                    And when in what comments did you consider the weapons produced in Russia to be good, here is a foreign yes -super

                    Orsis, I think at the moment is a good rifle worthy of modern standards. Because people are serious about business, collect complaints, they are quickly eliminated.
                    And the rest - you can’t live in the past, otherwise you will die.

                    Quote: Alexander Romanov
                    You already said this, let's do something new. Your vis-a-vis Serdyukov was stealing billions, he's done

                    Sasha, you will be surprised - but all the officials of the Russian Federation are stealing. That is absolutely. If you think that Shoigu who returned epaulettes and is engaged in populism does not steal, then you are deeply mistaken. Serdyukov there and did not stand on a scale. Sasha, I'm sorry, I know this kitchen too well.

                    Quote: Alexander Romanov
                    Each of us has our own heroes! You have Makarov, and I have Shamans

                    Shamanova for that factory needed a filthy broom, forgive me.
                    1. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 16: 33
                      +2
                      Quote: Pimply

                      Orsis I think is good at the moment

                      Well, at least something.
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Shamanova for that factory needed a filthy broom, forgive me.

                      your opinion, as regards the rest., that is, officials who have become very infected. If you provide information that Shamanov has a lot of houses in Europe and a bank account in foreign banks, come and discuss. For now, everything is on the level, as the professor of OBS says hi
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 1 March 2013 16: 40
                        0
                        Sasha. Serdyukov's mistake was that he simply removed almost everyone except a narrow circle of associates from the feeding trough. That's all. And all who were fed cried out. And there were so many people that could not be counted.

                        About Shamanov - Ulyanovsk region. Ask sometime. Highly recommend.
                      2. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 16: 49
                        +5
                        Quote: Pimply
                        About Shamanov - Ulyanovsk region. Ask sometime. Highly recommend.

                        Eugene, what to ask, you give me the facts, there are so many, there are so many. They stole it, framed it and threw it. Rumors are sometimes that Putin has billions in the USA and his daughter married Nigerian laughing
                    2. Apollo
                      Apollo 1 March 2013 16: 47
                      +4
                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      You will provide info that Shamanov has a lot of houses in Europe and a bank account in foreign banks, come and discuss it. In the meantime, everything is at the level, as the professor of OBS says.


                      I welcome you Alexander hi

                      I have another info about the general, he is busy with his direct duties and not with commercial affairs, as some have presented.

                      Airborne Forces can send to Abkhazia and South. Ossetia as a quick reaction force

                      If necessary, Russian Airborne Forces can be sent to carry out combat missions as quick reaction forces outside Russia, in particular to South Ossetia, Abkhazia and the Collective Security Treaty Organization, Colonel General Vladimir Shamanov, Commander of the Airborne Forces of Russia, said on Friday.

                      .

                      more details http://www.vz.ru/news/2013/3/1/622602.html
                    3. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 16: 52
                      +3
                      Quote: Apollon
                      I have another info about the general,

                      Hi Apollo! It’s just that Shamans are too independent and many don’t like it, hence watering with mud. Perhaps one of the few generals whom Serdyukov could not gobble up.
                    4. Apollo
                      Apollo 1 March 2013 16: 53
                      +2
                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      It’s just that Shamans are too independent and many don’t like it, hence watering with mud. Perhaps one of the few generals whom Serdyukov could not gobble up.


                      hi drinks
                      Shamans battle general, this alone makes me respect.
                    5. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 17: 06
                      +2
                      Quote: Apollon
                      Shamans battle general, this alone makes me respect

                      Yes, it is respected by many, but some do not like it at the top. There is also envy.
                    6. Apollo
                      Apollo 1 March 2013 17: 11
                      +1
                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      Yes, it is respected by many, but some do not like it at the top. There is also envy.


                      Do not like whom ?! Only those who have a soul, not everything is clean, I am here, as I think.
                    7. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 17: 16
                      +1
                      Quote: Apollon
                      Afraid who?

                      Apollo, I didn’t write. That they are afraid, I wrote envy, and what the stealing official can envy about which everyone is not lazy to write articles about his affairs. They envy respect that they don’t have hi
                    8. Apollo
                      Apollo 1 March 2013 17: 20
                      +2
                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      I wrote envy, and what a stealing official can envy about which everyone is interested in writing articles about his affairs. They envy respect that they don’t have


                      when they envy, at the same time, they are afraid, just imagine that they would hand over the stealing to Shamanov .................... he wouldn’t conduct intimate conversations with them, the conversation would be short.
                    9. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 17: 52
                      +1
                      Quote: Apollon

                      when they envy, at the same time, they are afraid, just imagine that they’re giving the stolen goods to Shamanov’s hands.

                      I agree, it’s a pity that they don’t give laughing
          2. Pimply
            Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 33
            -1
            So big, Sasha, but you all believe in fairy tales
          3. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 17: 50
            +2
            Quote: Pimply
            So big, Sasha, but you all believe in fairy tales

            I believe the facts !!! What you bring is rumors and no more. If you were developing BMD 4, like Mechanic Armata, then your opinion was significant enough for me, but you were not even close to BMD 4, which in turn casts doubt on yours findings hi
            With Shamanov, in addition to rumors on your part, it’s also zero, because alas, ah request
          4. Pimply
            Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 52
            -2
            I bring what I know, Sash.
  • bask
    bask 1 March 2013 16: 41
    +2
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    each of us has his own heroes! You have Makarov, and I have Shaman

    Shamans is a hero of 2 Chechen wars and events of the 99th year in Dagestan.
    Quote: Pimply
    Asha, you will be surprised - but all the officials of the Russian Federation are stealing. That is abs

    They steal on a large scale. Someone does not argue. But armored vehicles for the airborne forces should be.
    You can solve the problem of creating an armored personnel carrier specifically for the Airborne.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 16: 54
      +1
      Quote: bask
      Shamans is a hero of 2 Chechen wars and events of the 99th year in Dagestan.

      By the way, the Basque wrote correctly, even without knowing it.
      Zhenya, you recalled Grachev there, so Grachev is considered a traitor, and Shamanov is a hero !!! Moreover, the soldiers and officers themselves hi
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 35
        -3
        Grachev was also once considered a hero. AND?

        Shamanov sent for dismantling around the factory special forces airborne. Let's look here for heroism.
      2. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 17: 37
        +1
        Quote: Pimply
        Shamanov sent for dismantling around the factory special forces airborne.

        The link with evidence please !!!
      3. Pimply
        Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 49
        0
        And you google Sasha, google. You will find the conversation cited in the NG, and Shamanov’s acquittal in the Communist Party, and the order of the Minister of Defense to issue a warning about incomplete official compliance, and Shamanov’s confession of guilt, and an indication that the decision was fair. You will find a lot.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 34
    0
    Heroism is heroism, only Grachev was also a hero. Is there any respect for him? For me, all respect for Shamanov left after the story with the factory
  • Hon
    Hon 1 March 2013 16: 15
    +1
    Quote: Pimply
    Shamans for the sake of their interests sent special forces of the Airborne Forces subordinate to him to fight for the factory. It's a shame.

    This is a business!
    Quote: Pimply
    I recall that Grachev was also a military general, and had a hero star, and also was a paratrooper.

    By the way, during the Afghan war, Grachev established himself as an excellent military leader, and he received a star for completing combat missions with minimal human losses and for professional command of a controlled formation and successful actions of the 103rd Airborne Division, in particular in the occupation of the strategically important Satukandav pass - province Host during the military operation "Magistral". He was shell-shocked 8 times, received several wounds. It's just that, if we are absolutely clumsy, he surrendered our guys for the sake of loyalty to Yeltsin, realizing that the army at that time was simply not able to conduct major military operations, having very little time and information for planning, and realizing that many actions of the troops would be dictated people who are in "affiliated" relations with Dudaev. Knowing this, he still decided not to conduct an operation in Chechnya.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 1 March 2013 16: 27
      +2
      Quote: Hon
      This is a business!

      Business is done in civilian life. These people were under his command. The Airborne Forces are not his property, and especially not his property is the soldiers who serve there. Business is done in civilian life. What he did is a shame.

      I know how Grachev established himself in Afghanistan. Therefore, once again - think about the authorities. A combat general does not mean that he is holy and infallible. This is just a sign that he fought, no more.
      1. Hon
        Hon 1 March 2013 17: 14
        0
        But is it all that the entire senior leadership of the US Army is somehow and other tied to business, especially oil?
        Quote: Pimply
        A combat general does not mean that he is holy and infallible.

        Here the issue is not holiness but competence, the rather corrupt governor Gromov was a good military leader.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 37
          0
          They do not send their special forces to a showdown around the factory.

          Quote: Hon
          Here the issue is not holiness but competence, the rather corrupt governor Gromov was a good military leader.


          AND? From this shoved BMD-4 shamanov became a smaller coffin?
  • Hon
    Hon 1 March 2013 15: 48
    +2
    Quote: Pimply
    10 BMD-4M units ordered in 2013. The amount of the contract is 608 million rubles.

    That is, if roughly $ 2 million at a tank cost of about 6 million, the BMD is equipped with various expensive equipment.
    Quote: Pimply
    “Makarov confirmed that the Ministry of Defense refused to purchase the BMD-4 airborne assault vehicle precisely because of the soldier's low security.“ In fact, the BMD-4 is a version of the BMP-3, no protection - again everything is at the top, but it costs more than a tank. No matter how we looked at this car, we do not look, "said Makarov."

    Well, of course, again, parquet general Makarov, whose leopard is cheaper than the T90. For some reason, the commander of the Airborne Forces has a different opinion on this matter. By the way, Shamanov has combat experience, unlike Makarov, and he never gave reason to doubt his competence.

    Quote: Pimply
    And what, that these machines are designed for landing? When was the military landing? 70 years ago? But there are plenty of situations when the Airborne Forces are fighting on poorly protected vehicles.

    Nuclear weapons were also used 70 years ago, do you also propose abandoning them? In principle, full-scale landing operations are now rare, can we abandon the airborne forces as a kind of troops? The Russian army faces a wider range of tasks than the IDF, and to complete a number of these tasks, the Airborne Forces and the presence of amphibious equipment are needed.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 1 March 2013 16: 15
      0
      Quote: Hon
      That is, if roughly $ 2 million at a tank cost of about 6 million, the BMD is equipped with various expensive equipment.

      In recent purchases in 2010, the cost of the tank was 71 million 915 thousand for the Ministry of Defense. 6 million bucks can you tell me where they got it?


      Quote: Hon
      Well, of course, again, parquet general Makarov, whose leopard is cheaper than the T90. For some reason, the commander of the Airborne Forces has a different opinion on this matter. By the way, Shamanov has combat experience, unlike Makarov, and he never gave reason to doubt his competence.

      Yes? But Troshnev, for example, criticized Shamanov for impetuosity and excessive losses. And Shamanov himself, without any hesitation, was going to defend his factory to send soldiers of special forces of the Airborne Forces subordinate to him - miraculously remained in the army. Then we recall the military general of the airborne forces Grachev. Afghan, Golden Star of the Hero. Remember the result of his work?
      And you are also aware that one of the best American combat units of the Second World War - the 1st Special Forces Brigade - was created by a staffer who did not have combat experience, Colonel Robert Frederick.

      Quote: Hon
      Nuclear weapons were also used 70 years ago, do you also propose abandoning them? In principle, full-scale landing operations are now rare, can we abandon the airborne forces as a kind of troops? The Russian army faces a wider range of tasks than the IDF, and to complete a number of these tasks, the Airborne Forces and the presence of amphibious equipment are needed.


      Was there a more effective weapon than nuclear weapons. Effective countermeasures? Ways to slow down a nuclear reaction at a distance? No. And against the landing was found.
      1. Hon
        Hon 1 March 2013 17: 00
        0
        Quote: Pimply
        In recent purchases in 2010, the cost of the tank was 71 million 915 thousand for the Ministry of Defense. 6 million bucks can you tell me where they got it?

        And in 2004 T90 was purchased at a price of 36 million rubles, in 2011 the cost was already 118 million. The Ministry of Defense bought tanks to keep the plant afloat. Therefore, the price was extremely low, in addition, tanks of the minimum configuration were purchased, if the tank was equipped with everything necessary (thermal imagers, glonas, FCS, etc.), the price increases significantly.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 39
          0
          In 2011, purchases were stopped, so they did not enter the army for 118 lyam.
          So BMD-4 is not a tank, and also in the minimum configuration. But it costs like him.
          1. dmitreach
            dmitreach 1 March 2013 22: 11
            0
            Why such infa that BMD is like a tank?
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 1 March 2013 23: 31
              +1
              The cost for 10 pieces is 608 million, from 2013. At the last stage of procurement in 2010, the T-90A tank cost 71 million 915 thousand.
            2. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 2 March 2013 00: 58
              +2
              The cost of armored vehicles is highly dependent on the filling.
              If you take the T-90 in the cheapest configuration, and the BMD-4 with modern filling, then the BMD will probably be more expensive, but this is not a correct comparison and you should not constantly stick it out as a drawback.
              In addition, the price of an individual unit depends heavily on the number of cars ordered, and the number of T-90s produced is almost a hundred times different than the BMD-4.

              If you believe the Internet, then the American Excalibur Block Ia-1 shell at first cost $ 232, and Block 000a-1 - $ 2 (for one shell), but in the production of large quantities, a cost reduction of up to $ 160 is possible.
              I don’t think that it is different with us.
            3. Pimply
              Pimply 2 March 2013 03: 17
              0
              I do not argue. However, in any case, this is an outdated car, weak, with a rather interesting combat module - but no more. And unfortunately, dear coffin
            4. politruk419
              politruk419 2 March 2013 08: 19
              +2
              I read you men and quietly envy. good
              Here we, submariners, have nothing to go to "showdowns". request "Baton", don't wave your shields, it won't make it to land anyway. Unless to drive the fishermen in the area of ​​combat training, and even then they ... I'm not afraid. In the year before last, drunken donkeys on the MRS-ke rode around Avacha at night so that they took the BDR on board. And they didn't fucking get it. Well, or almost not (the emergency team, led by the deputy and the miner, wrote them Lyuli, of course!) fellow such!
              As for Shamanov, there are generals for parquet, but there are generals for war... In a "peaceful" life, they are voluntarists, dolbo..by and what assholes the light did not throw out. And the war has come, SO THERE IS NO PRICE. The enemy swears at one current mentioning them. L / s worships and is ready to follow them into fire and water.
              But in court politics and disputes between business entities, they are loshars, not like the Arbat "half-p..are in half-shoes."
              I think of the Shamans of these. Therefore, it is impossible to let him into a cannon shot at the farm. His place in the ranks of the fighting forces, on the CP of formations and armies. Only one assault on Bamut, this is a textbook on how to take fortresses in the mountains! IMHO.
            5. Pimply
              Pimply 2 March 2013 11: 46
              0
              In the court polises Shamanov ate a dog. Uncle was a governor and politician for many years, do not forget. He knows where and what to say, and when to bend, and when to show impregnable.
      2. dmitreach
        dmitreach 2 March 2013 18: 04
        0
        so everyone knows this figure because of purchases for the current year. only I still get it like this:
        Bmd4m costs like three Lynxes or, like half a t90 (the figure was also mentioned in 118 lemons per tank).
      3. Pimply
        Pimply 3 March 2013 00: 03
        -3
        They didn’t buy the tank at this price. Three and a half pieces - four. And it’s an order of magnitude better armored.
      4. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 3 March 2013 00: 14
        0
        Quote: Pimply
        Three and a half pieces - four. And it’s an order of magnitude better armored ....

        Where does the information come from about the superiority of the "Lynx" armor (weight-6.5 tons) over the armor of the BMD-4m (weight 13.5 tons)?
      5. Pimply
        Pimply 3 March 2013 17: 00
        0
        What WU can withstand BMD-4M? Name it. What exactly is the weight in TNT equivalent. Which bullet?
      6. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 4 March 2013 10: 33
        +1
        So after all it was you stated that "it (the Lynx) is an order of magnitude better armored (than the BMD-4m), So justify your words, where are these data from. Or so, from the bulldozer?"
      7. Pimply
        Pimply 4 March 2013 13: 04
        0
        In addition, on August 8, 2012, First Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Alexander Sukhorukov announced that the BMD-4M armored vehicle would not be purchased by the military department. The reason was, he said, the mismatch between the requirements for bulletproof and mine protection. There were no such claims to Lynx.

        Shamanov spoke of qualities sufficient for the airborne forces, but not armor
      8. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 4 March 2013 13: 51
        +1
        Quote: Pimply
        .... First Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Alexander Sukhorukov announced that the BMD-4M armored vehicle will not be purchased by the military department .....

        This is not an argument:
        Sukhorukov (like Makarov) is Serdyukov’s man, and his statement is purely unfounded (not confirmed by facts).
        BMD-4m was precisely developed according to their (MO) requirements and, in the final version, fully complied with them, which was repeatedly noted by representatives of the plant.
      9. Pimply
        Pimply 4 March 2013 19: 46
        0
        Prove the converse
      10. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 4 March 2013 21: 33
        +3
        Quote: Pimply
        Prove the converse

        Interesting thing
        unfounded statement about the superiority (by order) of the reservation Lynx - yours,
        But should I refute with evidence?

        About the link to Sukhorukov.
        Former bosses from the Moscow Region were famous for saying that for the price of one T-90 you can buy three Leopards, they also compared our rocket from the multiple launch rocket launcher with a NATO tactical missile and criticized our shell because it was inferior to the missile in range. In general, to the criticism of BMD from the same people, the attitude is the same as to their previous statements.
  • bask
    bask 1 March 2013 17: 01
    +2
    Quote: Hon
    a rarity, can we abandon the airborne forces as a kind of troops? The Russian army faces a wider range of tasks than the IDF, and to complete a number of these tasks, the Airborne Forces and the presence of airborne

    There is one task facing the tzahal. To crush the Arabs. Underneath, it is developed and all the equipment in Israel.
    Built ,, Chinese wall ,,
  • bask
    bask 1 March 2013 16: 08
    0
    Quote: Pimply
    protection of the soldier. "In fact, the BMD-4 is a version of the BMP-3, no protection - again everything is at the top, and with

    There is nothing to replace the BMD-4 for. For the Airborne Forces. While the parameters for airborne landing are laid down. The mass of the BMD will not exceed 15 tons.
    Now many countries are developing Airmobile armor ... on a general-purpose vehicle weighing up to 15 tons.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 1 March 2013 16: 29
      0
      Kurganets is being developed, right? The one with mounted modular armor will go into production by 2015. In addition, the BMD-2 went through massive modernization. The Airborne Forces are much more needed than normal equipment in the state, since they use these troops as elite infantry.
      1. Hon
        Hon 1 March 2013 17: 17
        +2
        Kurganets platform for infantry fighting vehicles, it is not known whether the possibility of landing it wakes.
        Quote: Pimply
        The Airborne Forces are much more needed than normal equipment in the state, since they use these troops as elite infantry.

        Or maybe it is just necessary to raise the level of training of motorized riflemen and not to pose unusual tasks for the airborne forces?
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 41
          +1
          Quote: Hon

          Or maybe it is just necessary to raise the level of training of motorized riflemen and not to pose unusual tasks for the airborne forces?

          One cancels the other, I don’t understand?

          And the task of the Airborne Forces is, first of all, to fight, and not to parachute. Be mobile responsive parts. The parachute is not a dogma here. He is just a beautiful symbol.
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 1 March 2013 16: 23
    +3
    Hon
    In Israel, since 2002, the army ruled out the possibility of large landings. Despite the fact that paratroopers continue to make 5 mandatory jumps for service, but they are practically reformed into airmobile units where they fly heavy helicopters. The parachute is practically now only a tool for special forces, and even then not all.
    1. Hon
      Hon 1 March 2013 17: 23
      +3
      The RF Ministry of Defense is not the IDF, it is necessary to defend a little more than 20 km. In addition, the possibility of a large-scale offensive operation is not ruled out.
      How do you think the IDF will last if the PLA is opposed to it?
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 45
        0
        Recall Vietnam, which the PLA opposed quite effectively. The question is not in size, the question is in equipment and training. The defense of a slightly larger number of kilometers, in addition to the shortcomings, has a number of undeniable advantages - there is where to regroup. And do you really think that during the war with China, airborne equipment will go somewhere?
        1. bask
          bask 1 March 2013 18: 40
          0
          Quote: Pimply
          advantages - there is where to regroup. And do you really think that during the war with China, airborne equipment will go somewhere?

          Airborne troops seize the bridgehead until the main forces approach. And our airborne troops always fought as an elite special forces infantry. Therefore, ronitekhnika was always attached to airborne infantry riflemen. In Afghanistan, BMP-2 D
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 1 March 2013 23: 42
            +1
            Yeah. Due to low efficiency and weak armor, BMD-1 was completely replaced by BMP-1984 by 2. However, for several years the Airborne Forces had to fight in vehicles that were not too suitable for long-term military operations, right?
            If in the airborne forces it was regular, then, and then - this is one thing. However, they regularly accept the machine of an outdated concept, on which it is supposed not to support the landing until the arrival of the main troops, poking from each serious enemy, but to go on the offensive.
      2. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 1 March 2013 18: 26
        +4
        Hon
        Well, let's say that the potential of the Egyptian army is very large. No kidding. Large, well-armed and very well trained. So the threat from the south of Israel is very great. But this is not the question. If the RA needs to transfer large trained units to the East, it is easier to create a BHTV and transfer only personnel. Even large airborne formations will not be able to stop tank units of China for a long time with their light equipment. (God forbid). All the same, the Airborne Forces is not a club, but a dagger.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 1 March 2013 18: 33
          +1
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          . Even large airborne formations will not be able to stop tank units of China for a long time with their light equipment (God forbid).

          To stop China, you have to use nuclear weapons! Even in Soviet times, there were about 45 divisions of the armed forces in the Far East that were well armed, but even with such force, nuclear charges were buried in areas of a possible breakthrough of the Chinese military.
        2. bask
          bask 2 March 2013 09: 27
          0
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          night parts of China. (God forbid). All the same, the Airborne Forces is not a club, but a dagger

          The Airborne Forces are not a dagger. And the ARROW tip. And the equipment corresponds to these tasks. But as much as possible is protected.
          BTR-T of various options
    2. ultra
      ultra 1 March 2013 17: 49
      +1
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      In Israel, since 2002, the army ruled out the possibility of large landings.

      Russia is not Israel, look at the map! We have a sparsely populated east, only aviation can provide mobility of the troops, and from this we dance! BMD-4 may not be a masterpiece, but there is nothing else!
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 1 March 2013 17: 51
        0
        And most of the troops are always throwing on railway. And a half dozen BMD-4s will not play a role against real tanks, but they will warm someone’s pocket
        1. ultra
          ultra 1 March 2013 18: 24
          0
          Quote: Pimply
          And a dozen BMD-4s will not play a role against real tanks

          And why did you get that the purpose of this type of equipment is the fight against tanks? Infantry and lightly armored vehicles are its purpose! And the pockets on this warm not only in Russia, do not entertain yourself with such a thought! hi
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 1 March 2013 23: 45
            +1


            At least from the fact that in Georgia paratroopers fought precisely on them.
            Be Georgians a little better trained and prepared - coffins.
            1. bask
              bask 2 March 2013 00: 35
              +3
              Quote: Pimply
              It would be because the paratroopers fought in Georgia specifically against them.
              Be Georgians a little better trained and prepared

              ,, RUNNING GEORGIAN GEORGIANS, Y. LERMONTOV.
              .BMD, 2,3, passed the 2nd Chechen war. They fought with a professional army of militants.
              .Gruziny. negative
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 2 March 2013 00: 40
                +2
                This indicates the courage of the Russian paratroopers and that I am right and in the event of a serious war they will again go into battle on equipment designed for short-term holding the bridgehead, and not that the BMD can save their lives more effectively.
              2. bask
                bask 2 March 2013 01: 52
                0
                Quote: Pimply
                darma, and not that BMD is able to more effectively save their lives.

                How. ,, save ,, And on what armored vehicles. What specifically do you suggest? BMD-4 M ,, ,, bad ,,,,, what is needed for the airborne forces ???
              3. Pimply
                Pimply 2 March 2013 03: 19
                0
                I believe that an airborne landing may well wait for Kurganets - since yes, it has been said many times that in the version without armor it will be airborne. And even better - give on a regular basis more serious machines, in addition to BMD, and, finally, think about the role of the landing in modern conditions.
              4. bask
                bask 2 March 2013 08: 29
                0
                Quote: Pimply
                BMD, and finally think about the role of the landing in modern conditions



                AS JORDANIAN BTR-T AB14-TENSAH
              5. Pimply
                Pimply 2 March 2013 11: 48
                0
                Considering what tasks the landing party is constantly performing - at least
    3. ultra
      ultra 2 March 2013 11: 12
      0
      Quote: Pimply
      Be Georgians a little better trained and prepared

      Your overseas friends taught them! If you poorly taught then all claims to the Pentagon! hi
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 2 March 2013 11: 47
        0
        Overseas friends haven’t taught so many people, if you look. Most of which were in Afghanistan and Iraq
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 1 March 2013 18: 32
    +2
    ultra
    Look, I don’t scold. I myself did not see it live. Yes, and the IDF also began with such a f *** but that it is simply not clear how one could fight this. Just (IMHO) the concept of large landings has become a thing of the past. Even a relatively primitive air defense will knock out a significant portion of the landing before being thrown. The landing party, while continuing to remain an attack unit, should be reformed into airmobile troops (IMHO).
    1. ultra
      ultra 1 March 2013 21: 14
      +3
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      Even a relatively primitive air defense will knock out a significant portion of the landing before being thrown.
      And no one is going to throw troops on the territory of the enemy, we are talking about the transfer of forces and means of the Airborne Forces within the country! In the war on 08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX, parts of the Airborne Forces were quickly deployed and strengthened the group in the Caucasus!
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 1 March 2013 22: 20
        +2
        Why then BMD?
        1. bask
          bask 2 March 2013 01: 14
          0
          Quote: Spade
          Why then BMD?

          Why, then, BMP and armored personnel carriers. They are as vulnerable as BMD.
          Then we will leave MBT and BTR-T, as the most protected armored vehicles. and self-propelled guns.
          Why \ then are BTR ,, Boomerang ,, and BMP ,, Kurganets ,, created?

          The modernized infantry fighting vehicle ,, Marder ,, duel 1500 l / c. Landing 10 people.
          You can also make such a highly secure option from BMD.
          .
      2. Pimply
        Pimply 1 March 2013 23: 46
        +1
        For this, airfields and railways are used. Why then BMD?
        1. bask
          bask 2 March 2013 01: 17
          0
          Quote: Pimply
          Why then BMD?

          Am why then BMP BTR.
          Promising ,, Boomerang, and ,, Kurganets,
          You can follow the path BMP Marder ,,
          But this option is suitable for the airborne
  • bask
    bask 1 March 2013 18: 47
    +1
    Quote: Aron Zaavi
    Israel in 2002, the army ruled out the possibility of large landings. Nes

    Armored vehicles flickered, imprisoned for operations in the city. In the field, in the mountains, it is not capable.

    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 1 March 2013 20: 22
      0
      This is off, but I do not agree with your promise.

      In the field they can. hi
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 1 March 2013 23: 50
      0
      She whetted under the mountains. Have you been to Israel? There every couple of km a change of climate and terrain.

      Upside down - BMP Puma, based on the Centurion.
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 1 March 2013 16: 16
    +1
    bask
    As an armored personnel carrier is weakly protected. But it is possible to make a light assault support tank on its basis. By eliminating the troop compartment, it is possible to strengthen the armor, at least from the front. And it is better to transfer the paratroopers to the "tigers" with the removed weapon modules.
    1. bask
      bask 1 March 2013 16: 50
      +1
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      l based on it light tank landing support is possible. By eliminating the airborne compartment

      Zachel to eliminate Already have ,, Octopus-SD, 120mm cannon. But the 4th-generation BMD is needed.
  • dmitreach
    dmitreach 1 March 2013 22: 27
    +1
    Bmd4m costs like three Lynxes or, like half a t90.
  • bask
    bask 1 March 2013 12: 47
    +3
    For each kind of troops. There should be specialized armored vehicles.
    BMO-T ,, Object 564,, Heavy combat vehicle of flamethrowers. 43,9 tons., Crew. 2 + 7 landing. She, what is suitable for the Airborne Forces?
  • PDM80
    PDM80 1 March 2013 14: 21
    0
    Good car for action in the city. And we must already stop combining the incompatible landing conveyor and light tank. what is this landing for 5 people ?! It’s better to strengthen the reservations due to the airborne landing squad, make the turret automatic so that no one is there, it may turn out to reduce the number of crew members, and create special vehicles with increased security and capacity for transportation on the battlefield.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 1 March 2013 14: 28
      -4
      Why is an expensive coffin good?
      1. PDM80
        PDM80 2 March 2013 06: 42
        0
        A combination of weapons, allowing its wide use in the city. As for the weak armor protection, I agree with you, but read in full what I wrote! It is necessary to stop combining incompatible. BMPs are machines that were built when they thought that the war would be nuclear, and in such cases it made sense to carry five paratroopers in relative safety, now the views on the war have changed. Therefore, it is necessary to modernize the machine in a different direction while maintaining its main qualities, buoyancy and the ability to disassemble
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 2 March 2013 11: 49
          0
          This is what I’m talking about. Landing - excellent troops. But you can’t stand still, you need to think about their place in modern reality
  • Rrrrr
    Rrrrr 1 March 2013 14: 39
    +2
    Israel doesn’t have a BMP at all and there are no means of landing it) cropped sun)))
    1. bask
      bask 1 March 2013 15: 07
      +2
      Quote: Rrrrr
      ralya no bmp at all

      German paratroopers, the tag also have a similar class of armored vehicles. Wisel-2? 4,5 tons. Crew 1 + 5
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 1 March 2013 15: 43
        0
        Do you see the difference in the concept of using these machines with airborne infantry fighting vehicles?
        1. bask
          bask 5 March 2013 22: 47
          +2
          Quote: Pimply
          see the concept in the application of these vehicles with airborne infantry fighting vehicles do you see?

          German BMD Wisel. In Afghanistan. Here you have the concept of application.
    2. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 1 March 2013 22: 09
      +2
      Rrrrr
      Quite right. Moreover, the command of the ground forces even objects to the idea put forward by part of the brigade commanders to equip the Namer with a module with a 30 mm cannon, since this will lead to the fact that some of the commanders will use the armored personnel carrier as an infantry fighting vehicle, and this does not fit into the tactics of the IDF.
  • pupkin70
    pupkin70 1 March 2013 15: 27
    +6
    Excellent equipment. I served 88-90 on BMD-2, and I want to say that in skillful hands this is a terrible (for the enemy) thing. Easy to operate and maintain. The training we had was at the highest level (we slept for 4 hours). The exercise "track" (shooting on the spot) performed perfectly well in manual mode (the "crystal" was broken laughing ), although I was a commander of a combat vehicle and not an op.navodchikom. I am proud of service in the Airborne Forces !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • CHIM SMOKE
    CHIM SMOKE 1 March 2013 15: 37
    0
    EFFICIENCY OF APPLICATION OF BMD - KBP created, albeit with a delay, a REAL AND DREAMful weapon for the enemies of the Fatherland. Now the paratroopers need to learn in the shortest time to use the "FOUR" and learn so that the glory of the RUSSIAN WEAPONS AND THE RUSSIAN SPIRIT would stop many enemies from unnecessary actions for a long time.
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 1 March 2013 20: 26
    +2
    bask

    Yes, and in the mountains they can, but I repeat this off.
    1. bask
      bask 1 March 2013 22: 37
      0
      Not in the mountains, but on rocky-seschany ground. But this is MBT. And where is the BMP in the IDF? Or the classic wheeled armored personnel carrier.-No. And they are not going to build.
      And in Russia there are 8 time zones. Accordingly, the equipment should be for various tasks.
      The most advanced SEP BMP concept on wheeled and. GSh With a single armored hull Mass of 18 tons. Ideal for our future BMD, the fourth generation.
      [/ Center]
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 1 March 2013 22: 44
        +2
        bask
        Taki on the Lebanese mountains ran in full swing. And the armored personnel carriers in our army are only tracked.
        For they have higher security. Only the police and the gendarmerie have wheel trifles.
        By the way, the models you mentioned are already a serious application for a breakthrough.
        1. bask
          bask 1 March 2013 23: 58
          +2
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          By the way, the models you mentioned are already a serious application for a breakthrough.

          Yes, each state should have armored vehicles for its geopolitical tasks. In your country, they only extend to Gaza. And there are only 2 options for the technology. Merkava, MBT assault gun and BTR-T. Russia has much more threats.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 2 March 2013 00: 44
            0
            I recommend that you take an excursion into the armored vehicles of Israel. You will discover a lot of new things.
        2. ultra
          ultra 2 March 2013 11: 21
          0
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          ... And it is better to transfer the paratroopers to the "tigers" with the removed weapon modules
          You offer us such an option! And you have this
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          And the armored personnel carriers in our army are only tracked.
          For they have higher security. Only the police and the gendarme have wheel trifles
          Where is the logic?
          1. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi 2 March 2013 11: 57
            +1
            ultra
            I'm talking about paratroopers. In Israel, after the 1956 war of the year, there was no combat landing of large units. The bet is on helicopter delivery.
      2. bask
        bask 2 March 2013 10: 02
        +1
        The concept of SEP is, first of all, the modularity of the BIS.
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 2 March 2013 00: 33
    +1
    bask
    Well this is an axiom.
    But the "carrot" is still a pure MBT. Unfortunately, our SPGs are American. Ie they are good in themselves, but there was no money for the "Sholef" self-propelled guns, and the idea of ​​a "single chassis" was mmm sweet. winked
    1. bask
      bask 2 March 2013 01: 25
      +1
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      But the "carrot" is still a clean MBT

      It is also used as an assault weapon. In urban areas .. Look at what ammunition is used. Clean MBT This is a T-90. There are 3 types of shells and an ATGM.
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 2 March 2013 11: 59
        0
        bask
        Tankers generally told me that two types of ammunition were left in carrots.
  • bask
    bask 2 March 2013 02: 48
    0
    BMP ,, Piranha -4 With a 105-mm cannon. It is planned to purchase for the Marines a source


    Another option for the prospective lineup of BMD.
    1. bask
      bask 2 March 2013 02: 49
      -1
      Another variant of the BMD lineup.
      1. ProkletyiPirat
        ProkletyiPirat 7 December 2017 22: 24
        0
        there is nothing promising here, even more than that there is a deterioration, for example, the landing squad is too wide
  • Alex
    Alex 2 March 2013 08: 47
    +4
    Somehow, everyone overlooked the fact that the same Shaman, being for the adoption of the BMD-4M, admitted that, despite all the shortcomings, there is simply no alternative to it today. BMD-1, 2 are operated for 30 years or more. There is still no new technology even in the prototypes, and when it starts to enter the troops it is not clear (plans are plans, but in reality terms tend to shift and much). Here are just new cars needed here and now.
    1. bask
      bask 2 March 2013 09: 57
      +1
      Online modernization projects BMD-4 BMP-3