Military Review

Education Volga and Yaitsky Cossack Troops

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In the previous article "Old Cossack ancestors»On the basis of numerous chronicles, chronicles, legends, works of Cossack historians and writers, other sources, it was shown that in the observable retrospective the Cossacks are clearly Scythian-Sarmatian, then the Turkic factor was superimposed. In the Horde and postordynian periods, the Don, Volga and Yaik Cossacks became strongly Russified due to the massive influx of new fighters from Russia. For the same reason, the Dnieper Cossacks not only became Russified, but also greatly drenched due to the influx of new fighters from the lands of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. There was such a kind of ethnic inter-pollination. Cossacks of Priaralye and from the lower reaches of the Amu-Darya and Syr-Darya could not be Russified by definition, for religious and geographical reasons, therefore Kara-Kalpaki (translated from the Turkic Black Klobuki) remained. They had very little contact with Russia, but diligently served Khorezm, Central Asian Chingizids and Timurids, about which there is a lot of written evidence. The Cossacks of the Balkhash region, living along the shores of the lake and along the rivers flowing into Balkhash, are the same. They strongly bonded at the expense of the influx of new fighters from the Asian lands, increasing the military power of Mogulistan and creating the Kazak Khanate. So история de facto spread the Cossack ethnos in different ethnic and geopolitical apartments. In order to divide the de jure Cossack subethnos, only in 1925, by a Soviet decree, the non-Russian Central Asian Cossacks (called the Kyrgyz-Kaisaks in Tsarist time, ie the Kyrgyz Cossacks) were renamed the Kazakhs. Oddly enough, but the roots of the Cossacks and Kazakhs are the same, they are pronounced and written in Latin (until the recent past and Cyrillic) the names of these peoples are absolutely the same, but ethno-historical pollination is very different.


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In the 15th century, the role of the Cossacks in the areas bordering Russia was sharply increasing due to the incessant raids of nomadic tribes. In the 1482 year, after the final collapse of the Golden Horde, the Crimean, Nogai, Kazan, Kazakh, Astrakhan and Siberian Khanates emerged.

Fig. 1 Disintegration of the Golden Horde


These fragments of the Horde were in constant hostility among themselves, as well as with Lithuania and with Moscow State. Even before the final disintegration of the Horde, during the inter-war strife, the Muscovites and Litvins placed part of the Horde lands under their control. The beginninglessness and turmoil in the Horde was especially remarkable for the use of the Lithuanian prince Olgerd. Where by force, where by intelligence and cunning, where, among other things, he incorporated many Russian princedoms into his domain, including the territories of the Dnieper Cossacks (former black hoods) and set himself broad goals: do away with Moscow and the Golden Horde. The Dnieper Cossacks were armed forces to four topics or 40000 well-trained troops and proved to be a strong support for the policy of Prince Olgerd. And it is with 1482 that a new, three-century period of Eastern European history begins - the period of the struggle for the Horde inheritance. At that time, few could have imagined that the state-of-the-art, although dynamically developing, Moscow principality would ultimately prove to be the winner in this titanic struggle. But less than a century after the collapse of the Horde, with Tsar Ivan IV the Terrible, Moscow will unite all the Russian principalities around itself and conquer a significant part of the Horde. At the end of the XVIII century. under Catherine II, almost the entire territory of the Golden Horde would be under Moscow authority. Having defeated the Crimea and Lithuania, the victorious grandees of the Queen-German put a fat and final point in the centuries-old dispute over the Horde inheritance. Moreover, in the middle of the 20th century, under Joseph Stalin, for a short time the Muscovites would create a protectorate over the whole territory of the Great Mongol Empire, created in the 13th century. the work and genius of the Great Genghis Khan, including China. And in all this postordyn history the Cossacks took the most lively and active part. And the great Russian writer L. N. Tolstoy believed that "the whole history of Russia was made by the Cossacks." And although this statement is certainly an exaggeration, but, taking a close look at the history of the Russian state, it can be stated that all significant military and political events in Russia did not go without the active participation of the Cossacks. But all this will be later.

And in 1552, Tsar Ivan IV the Terrible undertook a campaign against the most powerful of these khanates, the heirs of the Horde, Kazan. Up to ten thousand Don and Volga Cossacks participated in that campaign as part of the Russian army. Reporting on this campaign, the chronicle notes that the Sovereign ordered Prince Peter Serebryany to go from Nizhny Novgorod to Kazan, “... and with it the children of boyars and archers and Cossacks ...”. Two and a half thousand Cossacks under the command of Sevriuga and Yolki were sent from Meshchera to the Volga to overlap the traffic. During the storming of Kazan, he distinguished himself with his Cossacks Don Ataman Misha Cherkashenin. A Cossack legend tells that during the siege of Kazan, a young Volga Cossack Yermak Timofeev, disguised as a Tatar, penetrated Kazan, examined the fortress, and, returning, indicated the places most beneficial for the explosion of the fortress walls.

After the fall of Kazan and the annexation of the Kazan Khanate to Russia, the military-political situation changed dramatically in favor of Muscovy. Already in 1553, the Kabardian princes arrived in Moscow to beat the king with his forehead, so that he would take them into subjection and defend them against the Crimean Khan and the Nogai hordes. With this embassy, ​​ambassadors from the Grebensky Cossacks, who lived along the Sunzha river and were neighbors with Kabardians, arrived in Moscow. In the same year, the Siberian Tsar Edigei sent two officials to Moscow with gifts and pledged to pay tribute to the Moscow Tsar. Then Ivan the Terrible set the task for the governors to take Astrakhan and conquer the Astrakhan Khanate. Muscovy was supposed to strengthen the entire length of the Volga. The next 1554 year for Moscow was eventful. With the help of the Cossacks and the Moscow troops, Dervish Ali was implanted to the throne of the Astrakhan Khanate with the obligation to pay tribute to the Moscow State. After Astrakhan, the hetman of Vishnevetsky went to the service of the Moscow Tsar with the Dnieper Cossacks. Prince Vishnevetsky was descended from the Gediminovich family and was a supporter of the Russian-Lithuanian rapprochement. For this, he was repressed by King Sigismund I and fled to Turkey. Returning from Turkey, with the permission of the king, he became the elder of the ancient Cossack cities of Kanev and Cherkasy. Then he sent ambassadors to Moscow and the tsar accepted him with "kazatstvo" to the service, issued a security certificate and sent a salary.

Despite the betrayal of the Russian protege of Dervish-Ali, Astrakhan was soon subdued, but shipping along the Volga turned out to be in full power of the Cossacks. The Volga Cossacks at that time were especially numerous and so firmly “sat” in the Zhiguli mountains that practically no caravan passed by without ransom or was plundered. Nature itself, having created the Zhiguli loop on the Volga, took care of the extraordinary convenience of this place for such fishing. It is precisely in this connection that the Russian chronicles first of all note the Volga Cossacks for the first time - in 1560 it was written: "... Cossacks thieves along the Volga ... The pious Sovereign sent their governor with many military people to them and led them to imatis and veshati .. . " 1560 year Volga Cossacks consider the year of seniority (education) of the Volga Cossack Army. Ivan IV the Terrible could not jeopardize the entire eastern trade and, taken out of patience by the attack of the Cossacks on his ambassador, October 1 1577 sends the stewardman Ivan Murashkin to the Volga with the order "to torture, hang and hang the Volga Cossacks." In many works on the history of the Cossacks, there is a mention that due to government repression, many Volga free Cossacks left - one to Terek and Don, others to Yaik (Ural), and others, led by ataman Ermak Timofeevich, to Chusovskie towns for service to the merchants Stroganov, and from there to Siberia. Thoroughly pogroming the largest Volga Cossack army, Ivan IV the Terrible conducted the first in Russian history (but not the last) large-scale rasskazachivanie.

VOLGA Ataman Ermak Timofeevich

The most legendary hero of the Cossack chieftains of the XVI century, undoubtedly, is Yermolai Timofeevich Tokmak (cossack nickname Ermak), who conquered the Siberian Khanate and initiated the Siberian Cossack Army. Even before making up for the Cossacks, in early youth, this Pomeranian resident Yermolai, the son of Timofeev, for his remarkable strength and fighting qualities received his first and not sickly nickname Tokmak (tokmak, tokmach - a massive wooden beater for tamping the land). Yes, and in the Cossacks Ermak, apparently, also from a young age. No one knew Yermak better than his comrades - veterans of the "Siberian capture." In their declining years, those who were spared by death lived in Siberia. According to the Esipovskaya chronicle, compiled according to the recollections of the still living associates and opponents of Yermak, before the Siberian campaign the Cossacks Ilyin and Ivanov already knew him and served with Yermak in the villages for at least twenty years. However, this period of life of the chieftain is not documented.

According to Polish sources, in June 1581, Ermak headed the Volga Cossack flotilla He fought in Lithuania against the Polish-Lithuanian troops of King Stephen Batory. At this time, his friend and associate, Ivan Ring, fought in the Trans-Volga steppes with the Nogai Horde. In January 1582, Russia concluded the Yam-Zapolsky peace with Poland, and Yermak was given the opportunity to return to his native land. Yermak’s detachment arrives on the Volga and in Zhiguli it connects with Ivan Koltso’s detachment and other “thieves Atamans”. To this day there is the village of Ermakovo. Here (according to other sources on Yaik) they are found by a messenger from the rich Perm salt industrialists Stroganovs with an offer to go to their service. To protect their possessions, the Stroganovs were allowed to build fortresses and contain armed detachments in them. In addition, within the Permian land there was constantly a detachment of Moscow troops in the Cherdyn fortress. The appeal of the Stroganovs led to a split among the Cossacks. Ataman Bogdan Barbosha, who until then was Ivan Ring's chief assistant, resolutely refused to go to Perm merchants. Barbosha took with him several Cossack hundreds to Yaik. After Barbosha and his supporters left the circle, the majority in the circle passed to Yermak and his villages. Knowing that Yermak has already been sentenced for quartering for defeating the tsar’s caravan, and the Ring has been hanged, the Cossacks accept the Stroganov’s invitation to go to their Chusovsky towns to protect them from raids by the Siberian Tatars. There was another reason. At that time, a grand rebellion of the Volga peoples was already blazing on the Volga for several years. After the end of the Livonian War, from April 1582, tsarist ship rati began to arrive on the Volga to suppress the uprising. Free Cossacks were as if between a rock and a hard place. They did not want to participate in actions against the rebels, but did not take their side. They decided to leave the Volga. In the summer of 1582, a detachment of Yermak and the chieftains of Ivan the Ring, Matvey Meshcheryak, Bogdan Bryazgi, Ivan Alexandrov, nicknamed Cherkas, Nikita Pan, Savva Boldyr, Gavrila Ilyin, in the amount of 540 people along the Volga and Kama, rises on plows to Chusovsky towns. The Stroganovs gave Ermak some weapons, but it was insignificant, since the whole Ermak squad had excellent weapons.

Taking advantage of a convenient moment, when the Siberian prince Alei with the best troops went into raid on the Perm fortress of Cherdyn, and the Siberian khan Kuchum was busy with the war with his feet, Ermak himself undertakes a bold invasion of his lands. It was an extremely audacious and courageous, but dangerous plan. Any miscalculation or accident deprived the Cossacks of any chance of return and salvation. Brought to them to suffer defeat contemporaries and descendants would easily have written it off on the madness of the brave. But the Germans won, but the winners are not judged, they are admired. We admire and we. The Stroganov merchant ships had long been plowing the Ural and Siberian rivers, and their people knew the regime of these waterways perfectly. In the days of the autumn flood, water in mountain rivers and streams rose after heavy rains and mountain passes became accessible for perevoloki. In September, Yermak could cross the Urals, but if he had lingered there before the end of the floods, his Cossacks would not be able to drag their ships back through the passes back. Yermak understood that only a swift and sudden attack could lead him to victory, and therefore he was in a hurry with all his might. The people of Yermak more than once overcame the multi-curving transfer between the Volga and the Don. But overcoming the Ural mountain passes was fraught with incomparably great difficulties. With an ax in their hands, the Cossacks themselves made their way, cleared debris, cut down trees, chopped a clearing. They did not have the time and strength to level the stony path, as a result of which they could not drag ships along the ground using rollers. According to the participants of the trip from the Esipovskiy chronicle, they dragged the ships uphill "on themselves", in other words, in their hands. According to Tagil passes, Yermak left Europe and descended from the “Stone” (Ural Mountains) to Asia. In 56 days, the Cossacks overcame more than 1500 km, including about 300 km against the current along the Chusovaya and Serebryanka and 1200 km along the Siberian rivers and reached the Irtysh. This was made possible thanks to iron discipline and solid military organization. Yermak categorically forbade any minor skirmishes with the natives on the way, only forward. According to the chieftains, the Cossacks were commanded by foremen, Pentecostals, centurions and captains. With the detachment there were three Orthodox priests and one pop strider. Yermak in the campaign strictly demanded the observance of all Orthodox fasting and holidays.

And now thirty Cossack planes are sailing along the Irtysh. In the wind at the front, the Cossack banner is rinsed: blue with a wide jacket edge. Kumach is embroidered with patterns, in the corners of the banner are fancy sockets. In the center on the blue field are two white figures facing each other on their hind legs, a lion and an ingor horse with a horn on his forehead, the personification of “prudence, purity and severity.” With this banner, Yermak fought against Stefan Batory in the West, and with him came to Siberia. At the same time, the best Siberian army led by Tsarevich Aleev unsuccessfully stormed the Russian fortress Cherdyn in the Perm region. The appearance on the Irtysh of the Cossack flotilla Ermak was for Kuchum a complete surprise. He hurried to gather in defense of his capital the Tatars from the neighboring uluses, as well as the Mansiysk and Khanty princes with troops. The Tatars quickly built up fortifications (a notch) on the Irtysh near Chuvashev Cape and set many foot and horse soldiers along the entire coast. October 26 on the Chuvashov Cape, on the banks of the Irtysh, a fierce battle broke out, which from the opposite side was led by Kuchum himself. In this battle, the Cossacks successfully used the old and favorite method of “rook rati”. Part of the Cossacks with scarecrows stuffed with twigs, dressed in a Cossack dress, floated on struga well visible from the shore and continuously fought with the shore, and the main detachment unnoticed landed on the shore and on foot rapidly attacked Kuchum from the rear and knocked him down and Kuchum overturned him . The Khanty princes, frightened by volleys, were the first to leave the battlefield. Their example was followed by the Mansiysk warriors who had taken refuge after retreating in the impassable Yaskalba marshes. In this battle, Kuchum's troops were utterly defeated, Mametkul was wounded and miraculously escaped captivity, Kuchum himself fled, and his capital Kashlyk occupied Ermak.

Fig. 2 Conquest of the Siberian Khanate


Soon the Cossacks occupied the towns of Yepanchin, Chingy-Tury and Isker, resulting in the submission of the local princes and kings. The local Khanty-Mansiysk tribes, who were under the power of Kuchum, showed peacefulness towards the Russians. Four days after the battle, the first prince Boyar with his compatriots came to Kashlyk and brought a lot of supplies with him. The Tatars, who fled from the Kashlyk area, began to return to their yurts with their families. A dashing foray was a success. In the hands of the Cossacks fell rich booty. However, the triumph of victory was premature. At the end of autumn, the Cossacks could not make the way back. The harsh Siberian winter began. Ice bound the rivers that served as the only means of communication. The Cossacks had to pull the planes ashore. Their first difficult wintering began.

Kuchum carefully prepared to deliver a fatal blow to the Cossacks and free his capital. However, he, willy-nilly, had to give the Cossacks more than a month's respite: he had to wait for the return of the Aley units from behind the Ural Mountains. The question was about the existence of the Siberian Khanate. Therefore, messengers galloped off to all ends of the vast "kingdom" with orders to gather military forces. Under the khan's banners were called to all who were able to wear weapon. Kuchum again ordered the command of his nephew Mametkulu, who had dealt with the Russians more than once. Mametkul went to free Kashlyk, having at his disposal more than 10 thousands of soldiers. Cossacks could defend themselves from the Tatars, sowing in Kashlyk. But they preferred the offensive defense. Yermak 5 December attacked the advancing Tatar army 15 versts south of Kashlyk near Lake Abalak. The battle was difficult and bloody. Many Tatars fell on the battlefield, but the Cossacks suffered heavy losses. With the onset of night darkness the battle stopped by itself. The innumerable Tatar army retreated. Unlike the first battle, the Chuvashev Cape this time did not have an enemy stampede at the height of the battle. There was no talk about the capture of their commander in chief. Nevertheless, Yermak won the most glorious of his victories over the combined forces of the whole Kuchum kingdom. The waters of the Siberian rivers were covered with ice and impassable snow. Cossack plots have long been pulled ashore. All retreat routes were cut off. Cossacks fiercely fought with the enemy, realizing that they are waiting for either victory or death. Each of the Cossacks accounted for more than twenty enemies. This battle showed the heroism and moral superiority of the Cossacks, it meant the complete and final conquest of the Siberian Khanate.

To notify the tsar about the conquest of the Siberian kingdom in spring 1583, Ermak sends to Ivan IV the Terrible a detachment of Cossacks in 25 a man led by Ivan Koltso. It was not a random choice. According to the Cossack historian A.A. Gordeeva, Ivan Koltso is the nephew of the disgraced Metropolitan Philip, who was fleeing to the Volga, and the former royal tsarist Okolnichy, Ivan Kolychev, the son of the numerous, but disgraced boyar family of the Kolychevs. With the embassy, ​​gifts, tribute, notable captives and a petition were sent, in which Yermak apologized for his previous guilt and asked to be sent to Siberia to help the governor with a detachment of troops. Moscow at that time was experiencing hard failures of the Livonian war. Military defeats followed one after another. The success of a handful of Cossacks who defeated the Siberian kingdom flashed like lightning in the darkness, striking the imagination of its contemporaries. The Ermak Embassy, ​​headed by Ivan Koltso, was taken in Moscow very solemnly. According to contemporaries, in Moscow there was no such joy since the conquest of Kazan. “Yermak, with his comrades and all the Cossacks, the king was forgiven for all their previous guilt, the king gave Ivan the Ring and the Cossacks who arrived with him. Yermak was granted a fur coat from the tsar's shoulder, combat armor and a letter in his name, in which the tsar commanded ataman Yermak to write to the Siberian prince ... ”. Ivan the Terrible ordered to send in the Cossacks a detachment of archers 300 people led by Prince Semyon Bolkhovsky. Simultaneously with the Kolts detachment, Yermak sent ataman Alexander Cherkas with the Cossacks to the Don and the Volga for recruiting volunteers. After visiting the stanitsas, Cherkas also ended up in Moscow, where he long and stubbornly bothered and sought to send help to Siberia. But Cherkas returned to Siberia with a new large detachment, when neither Yermak nor the Ring, who had returned to Siberia before, was already alive. The fact is that in the spring of 1584 in Moscow there were big changes - Ivan IV died in his Kremlin palace, in Moscow there were unrest. In the general confusion, the Siberian expedition was temporarily forgotten. Almost two years passed before the free Cossacks received help from Moscow. What allowed them to stay in Siberia with small forces and resources for such a long time?

Yermak survived because the Cossacks and Atamans had the experience of long wars both with the most advanced European army of that time, Stefan Batory, and with the nomads in the “wild field”. For many years their camps and winter huts from all sides were always surrounded by gentry or Horde. The Cossacks learned to overcome them, despite the numerical superiority of the enemy. An important reason for the success of the expedition Ermak was the internal fragility of the Siberian Khanate. Since Kuchum killed Khan Edigey and seized his throne, many years have passed, filled with uninterrupted bloody wars. Where by force, where by cunning and deceit, Kuchum humbled the recalcitrant Tatar murzas (princes) and laid tribute to the Khanty-Mansiysk tribes. Initially, Kuchum, like Edigey, paid tribute to Moscow, but after entering into force and receiving news of the failures of the Moscow troops on the western front, he took a hostile position and began to attack the Permian lands that belonged to the Stroganovs. Surrounding himself with a guard of the Nogai and Kirghiz, he strengthened his power. But the very first military setbacks immediately led to the resumption of internecine struggle among the Tatar nobility. The son of the murdered Edigey Seyid Khan, who was hiding in Bukhara, returned to Siberia and began to threaten Kuchum with revenge. With his help, Yermak restored the former trade communication of Siberia with Yurgent, the capital of the White Horde, located on the shores of the Aral Sea. Middle Murza Kuchum Seinbakht Tagin gave Yermak the seat of Mametkul, the most prominent of the Tatar military leaders. Mametkul's captivity deprived Kuchum of a reliable sword. Know, afraid Mametkula, began to leave the Khan's court. Karachi, Kuchum’s chief dignitary, who belonged to the powerful Tatar clan, ceased to obey the khan and migrated with his warriors to the headwaters of the Irtysh. The Siberian kingdom was falling apart. Many local Mansi and Hunt princes and elders ceased to recognize Kuchum’s authority. Some of them began to assist Yermak with food. Among the allies of the chieftain were Alaci, princes of the largest Khant princedom in Priobye, Khant prince Boyars, Mansi princes Ishberdey and Sukle from Yaskalbinsky places. Their help was invaluable for the Cossacks.

Education Volga and Yaitsky Cossack Troops

Fig. 3,4 Yermak T. and the oath of his Siberian kings


After long delays, voivode S. Bolkhovsky arrived in Siberia with a big delay with a detachment of archers in 300. Yermak, new notable captives led by Mametkul, hurried them immediately, despite the coming winter, to send to Moscow with the shooter's head Kireev. Replenish little pleased Cossacks. Sagittarius were poorly trained, in the way they squandered their supplies, and in front of them were grave trials. Winter 1584-1585 in Siberia it was very harsh and for the Russians it was especially hard, supplies ran out, famine began. By spring, all the archers together with Prince Bolkhovsky and much of the Cossacks died of hunger and cold. In the spring of 1585, Kuchum's dignitary Murza Karacha fraudulently lured a Cossack detachment headed by Ivan Koltso to a feast, and at night, after attacking them, he cut everyone to sleep. Numerous detachments of Karachi kept Kashlyk in the ring, hoping to starve the Cossacks. Ermak patiently waited a moment to strike. Under the cover of night, the Cossacks sent to them, led by Matthew Meshcheryak, secretly made their way to the Karachi headquarters and defeated it. In the battle, two sons of Karachi were killed, he himself barely escaped death, and his army fled from Kashlyk the same day. Ermak won another brilliant victory over numerous enemies. Soon messengers from Bukharan merchants arrived to Yermak with a request to protect them from Kuchum’s arbitrariness. Ermak with the rest of the troops - about a hundred people - marched. The end of the first Siberian expedition is shrouded in a dense veil of legends. On the banks of the Irtysh River near the mouth of the Vagai River, where a detachment of Ermak spent the night, Kuchum attacked them during a terrible storm and thunderstorm. Ermak appreciated the situation and ordered to sit in a plane. Meanwhile, the Tatars have already rushed into the camp. Ermak was the last to leave, covering the Cossacks. A cloud of arrows fired Tatar archers. Arrows pierced Ermak Timofeevich's broad chest. The fast icy waters of the Irtysh swallowed him forever ...

This Siberian expedition lasted for three years. Hunger and hardship, severe frosts, battles and losses - nothing could stop the free Cossacks, break their will to win. Three years the squad Ermak did not know defeat from numerous enemies. In the last night skirmish, the depleted squad retreated, sustaining small casualties. But he lost a proven leader. Without it, the expedition could not continue. Arriving at Kashlyk, Matvey Meshcheryak gathered a circle, on which the Cossacks decided to go to the Volga for help. Yermak brought 540 fighters to Siberia, and only 90 Cossacks survived. With ataman Matvey Meshcheryak they returned to Russia. Already in 1586, another Cossack detachment from the Volga came to Siberia and founded the first Russian city there, Tyumen, which served as the basis for the future Siberian Cossack Army and the beginning of the incredibly sacrificial and heroic Siberian Cossack epic. And thirteen years after the death of Yermak, the royal governors finally defeated Kuchum.

The history of the Siberian expedition was rich in many incredible events. The fates of people underwent instant and incredible changes, and the zigzags and frills of Moscow politicians do not get tired of surprising even today. The story of Prince Mametkul can serve as a vivid example. After the death of Grozny, the nobility ceased to reckon with the orders of the feeble-minded Tsar Feodor. Boyars and metropolitan nobles for any reason started localism disputes. Everyone demanded top positions for themselves, referring to the "breed" and the service of their ancestors. Boris Godunov and Andrei Schelkalov eventually found a means to reason with the nobility. By their order, the discharge order announced the appointment of service Tatars to the highest military posts. On the occasion of the expected war with the Swedes was painted regiments. According to this painting, Simeon Bekbulatovich took the post of the first governor of a large regiment - commander-in-chief of the field army. The commander of the regiment of the left hand was ... "Prince Mametkul Siberian." Twice beaten and defeated by Yermak, captured and planted by the Cossacks in a pit, Mametkul was treated at the royal court and appointed to one of the highest posts in the Russian army.

EGG TRAINING

One of the first mentions of the Cossacks on Yaik is associated with the name of the legendary Cossack chieftain Gugni. He was one of the glorious and bravest Cossack commanders in the horde of the Golden Horde Khan Tokhtamysh. After Tamerlan’s campaigns to the Golden Horde and the defeat of Tokhtamysh, Gugnya, along with his Cossacks, migrated to Yaik, taking these lands as his inheritance. But the legendary fame he received on another occasion. At that time, the Cossacks kept a vow of celibacy. Having brought a new wife from a campaign, they chased away (or sold, sometimes even killed) the old one. Gugnya did not want to change his Nogai beauty-wife, entered into legal marriage with her, and since then the former cruel custom has been abandoned by the Cossacks. The families of the enlightened Ural Cossacks still have a toast to Grandma Gugnikha, the patroness of the Ural Cossacks. But mass settlements of the Cossacks on the Yaik appeared later.

The years of 1570-1577 are noted in the Russian chronicles as the years of the struggle of the Volga Cossacks with the Great Nogai Horde, whose nomad camps began just beyond the Volga. From there, the legs constantly invaded the Russian lands. The ruler of the Great Nogai Horde, Khan Urus, has long broken off peaceful relations with Moscow. His ambassadors knocked the thresholds of the Khan's palace in Bakhchisarai. They sought to send new Turkish-Tatar troops to Astrakhan and promised that the Nogai horde would provide them with effective assistance this time. Crimeans conducted their game with Russia and did not trust the promises of the Nogai too much. The actions of the free Cossacks were tied by the forces of the Nogai Horde and generally met Moscow interests in the Trans-Volga region. Using an auspicious moment, the Volga Cossacks three times attacked the capital of the Nogai Horde, the city of Saraichik, and burned it three times, freeing Russian people who were hijacked there from Nogai captivity. Atamans Ivan Koltso, Savva Boldyr, Bogdan Barbosha, Ivan Yuriev, Nikita Pan led the hikes to the Shed. However, in 1578, atamans Ivan Yuryev and Mitya Britousov again defeated Saraichik ... but paid with their heads on the scaffold - at the time the Tsar of Moscow was at a disadvantage with the Nogai war. The royal ambassadors negotiated the participation of the Nogai forces in the Livonian war. The raid took place at the wrong time and the chieftains fell victim to “high politics”.

In the 1577 year, fearing reprisals by the government troops of the steward, Murashkina, part of the “thieves” Volga Cossacks under the command of atamans Koltso, Nechay and Barboshi goes to the mouth of the Yaik (Urals), on the northern shore of the Caspian Sea. Together with them, Yaik left the ranks of the Volga atamans Yakuni Pavlov, Yakbulat Chembulatov, Nikita Usa, Perushi Zeya, Ivan Dud. In 1582, after the Yermakivtsi left for Siberia, and Barboshi and other chieftains on Yaik, the war with the Nogai began to boil with a new force. The Barbashi detachments smashed once again the capital of the Nogai Horde Shed and, having built a fortified town upstream of the Yaik, founded the Yaitsky (Ural) Cossack Army. Khan Urus was beside himself with anger when he found out about it. Several times he tried to knock the Cossacks off the heel, but without success. In 1586, the new hordes of the Horde came to the town of Yaitsky - several thousand against four hundred Cossacks ... However, they could not take the legs, and the Cossacks did not sit long in it. In the equestrian order out over the walls, divided into six troops and defeated the enemy. The defeat of Urus on Yaik was of the same importance for the fate of the southern Urals, as was the defeat of Kuchum for the fate of Siberia. The tsarist government hastened to use the fruits of all the victories of the voluntary Volga Cossacks over the Nogai Horde. In the summer of 1586, the Moscow envoy notified Khan Urus that Tsar Fedor ordered to build fortresses in four places: “on Ufa, and on Uvek, and on Samara, and on White Volozhka”. So it was commanded to establish the current Russian million-plus cities of Ufa, Samara, Saratov and Tsaritsyn. Khan Urus vainly protested. He was busy with an unsuccessful war with Barbos and the royal governors could build fortifications without fear of attacks by nomads. The Nogais hoped in vain for the help of the Crimeans. In Crimea, bloody strife erupted. Saving a life, Prince Murat Giray fled from the Crimea to Russia and became a vassal of the king. Moscow began preparing a large offensive against the Crimean horde. The governors with regiments arrived in Astrakhan. The appearance of large forces sobered Khan Urus. Murat Giray, who went to Astrakhan after the governors, persuaded him to once again go under the auspices of Moscow. But the Cossacks were not aware of these zigzags of Moscow politics.

Fig. 5 Cossacks Ural


The discharge order ordered to attract Volga and Yaik free Cossacks to the march to the Crimea. The voivode of the newly built Samara fortress hastily sent a courier with a diploma to Yaik. Inviting the atamans to the sovereign's service, the voivode swore that the king “orders their guilt to separate them for their service”. A circle gathered in a Cossack town on Yaik. Well done again, the old chieftains were throwing their hats to the ground. Top took Bogdan Barbosh and other "thieves" atamans. They did not want to serve the king, as they did not want to go "hired" to the Stroganovs. But part of the Cossacks, led by ataman Matyusha Meshcheryak, went to Samara for royal service. In 1586, the voivode Prince Grigory Zasekin at the mouth of the Samara River in the place of its confluence with the Volga River founded the Samara fortress. The garrison of the fortress consisted of the city Cossacks, noblemen-foreigners and Smolensk gentry, who were appointed to Cossack service. The tasks of the garrison-fortress of Samara were: defense against the raids of nomads, control over the waterway and trade, as well as the Volga Cossack freemen, if possible attracting her to the sovereign's service or punishing disobedience. It should be noted that the city Cossacks “did not hesitate” to catch for reward “thieves” Cossacks, considering this to be quite normal and suitable service (from there the famous game “Cossacks-robbers” went). Thus, the hero of many Nogai campaigns, the ataman Matyusha Meshcheryak, on the way to the sovereign's service hijacked a horse-shoe of more than 500 heads in Nogai wanderings. Coming to the Volga, he camped near Samara. Nogai Khan appealed to the Cossacks voivode Zasekina. The Moscow state then did not need a conflict with the legs, and by order of Zasekin Matyusha Meshcheryak and his five comrades were captured and imprisoned in the Samara ostrog. While in prison, Matyusha Meshcheryak makes a desperate attempt at salvation. He manages to plot to seize the fortress. Sharpened Cossacks in prison were able to collude with a part of the Samara garrison, unhappy with Zasekin. The messengers were sent to the Zhiguli Mountains to the free Volga Cossacks asking for help. Accident failed plot. In the “questioning” of torture, the Cossacks admitted their “guilt”. The incident was reported to Moscow. The Tsar's letter, brought by Postnik Kosyagovsky, read: “Matusha Meshcheryak and their other comrades of the Pushcha (Sovereign) ordered the ambassadors to execute the death penalty ...”. In March, 1587 of the year in Samara, in the town square, in front of the Nogai ambassadors, the Moscow authorities were hanged by the dashing Yaitsky ataman Matyusha Meshcheryak and his comrades, who were sacrificed to “high” Moscow politics. Soon after the defeat of the Persian embassy caravan, the longtime rival of Yermak, ataman Bogdan Barbosh, was captured and executed. Other chieftains became more compliant.

The first mention of the “sovereign” service of the Yaik Cossacks dates back to 1591, when by decree of Tsar Fyodor Ioannovich, the governors — the boyar Pushkin and Prince Ivan Vasilievich Sitsky — were ordered: “... To send a non-observant Tatar prince Shevkalsky to send seven years from Terek Sovereign Yaitsky and Volga atamans and Cossacks went to Astrakhan for their service for their service, and to gather all Cossacks for the Shevkale service: Volga — 1000 man and Yaik — 500 man. ” 1591 is the year that is officially the year of the beginning of the service of the Yaik Cossacks. From him the seniority of the Ural Cossack Army is calculated. In 1591, the Volga Cossacks, along with Yaik, participated in the campaign of the Russian troops against Dagestan against Shamkhal Tarkovsky. Performing “the service of the sovereign”, they participated in the capture of the capital of Shamkhalism, the city of Tarki. In the 1594 year, they again, in the amount of thousands of people in the detachment of Prince Andrey Khvorostinin, fought against Shamkhal.

The departure of the Volga Cossacks (mainly “thieves”) to Yaik and Siberia did not greatly weaken the Volga Cossacks, assuming that only at the rate of ataman Yermak (the modern village of Yermakovo in the Zhiguli Mountains of the Samara Region) at that time were over 7 000 Cossacks. Moreover, despite the outcome and government repression, the Volga Army continued to remain quite strong and at a later time - in the XVII-XVIII centuries. The other part of the Volga Cossacks, who had gone to the Terek, on the “ridges” of the Caucasian mountains, served as the basis for the formation of the Terek and the replenishment of the Grebensky Cossack Troops. But that's another story.

http://topwar.ru/22250-davnie-kazachi-predki.html
http://topwar.ru/21371-sibirskaya-kazachya-epopeya.html
Gordeev A.A. History of the Cossacks
Shamba Balinov What was the Cossacks?
Skrynnikov R.G. 'Expedition to Siberia of the Ermak Detachment'
Author:
Articles from this series:
Siberian Cossack Epic
Old Cossack ancestors
Cossacks and the annexation of Turkestan
Education Volga and Yaitsky Cossack Troops
Cossacks in Time of Troubles
Seniority (education) and the formation of the Don Cossack troops in the Moscow service
Azov seat and the transition of the Don troops in the Moscow service
Formation of the Dnieper and Zaporizhia troops and their service to the Polish-Lithuanian state
The transfer of the Cossack army hetman to the Moscow service
Treason of Mazepa and the pogrom of Cossack liberties by Tsar Peter
The uprising of Pugachev and the elimination of the Dnieper Cossacks by Empress Catherine
Cossacks in World War 1812 of the year. Part I, pre-war
Cossacks in World War 1812 of the year. Part II, the invasion and expulsion of Napoleon
Cossacks in World War 1812 of the year. Part III, foreign campaign
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  1. biglow
    biglow 2 March 2013 11: 07 New
    +1
    The life of people in those days was incredibly eventful
  2. Klim
    Klim 2 March 2013 11: 21 New
    +2
    Somehow everything is blurry, of course, for a general idea, it will go but the title of the article would be changed.
  3. Galinanp
    Galinanp 2 March 2013 11: 29 New
    +1
    Cossacks) were renamed into Kazakhs. Oddly enough, but the roots of the Cossacks and Kazakhs are the same, pronounced and spelled in Latin (until the recent past and Cyrillic) the names of these peoples are exactly the same, but ethnohistorical pollination is very different
    Many inaccuracies about the origin of the Cossacks. Cossack-Turkic word meaning a free warrior. It was the guilt that achieved great military skill, but for various reasons forced to leave their clan, tribe, people. Gradually the formation of Cossack compounds proceeded, the territories of their influence were designated, as to the origin of all Cossacks from one of the same ancient people, it is rather doubtful. As for modern Kazakhs, their ancestors are Kipchaks, nomadic Kipchak tribes.
    1. Beck
      Beck 3 March 2013 17: 32 New
      +8
      I already wrote once, but I repeat, in the light of the fact that the author raises the word Cossack and the very concept of Cossacks to Scythian-Sarmatian times. Although historians and linguists have long established that the word Cossack is a Turkic word, and the Sarmatians and Scythians were Indo-European languages.

      The written word Cossack is mentioned in the Turkic-Arabic dictionary, compiled in 1245 in Egypt and published, for scientific research, in Leiden in 1894. The word ҚазаҚ, precisely with two ул uvular Қ at the ends, is typical precisely for Turkic languages, and not Indo-European. ҚазаҚ is translated as "homeless, homeless, exile, wanderer." Initially, it was a household name - a free wanderer.

      The Cossack Institute also originated in the Turkic environment. Cossacks - the custom contained a social meaning. This condition, the position of a certain person, collective at any given moment in relation to society, the ruler, the state. This consisted in the fact that young men and young men left their villages for free life. Settled along the borders of tribal territories and lived dashing raids on neighboring territories and hunting. At this time, they had no social obligations to their family, village, clan and did not recognize the power of the Sultan or Khan. Therefore, they called themselves ҚazaҚ - a free wanderer.

      Cossacks chose themselves, by voting, a leader. He spoke in Turkic Ataman. Ata is the father. Mans, men - me. That is, Father I. Your Old Man for the time of the Cossacks. At any time, a person could quit the Cossacks and return to their village, take on social obligations and again recognize the power of the khan. The Cossacks had two basic rules. The first Cossacks on Wednesday could be accepted by anyone, regardless of nationality, whether it was a Persian who arrived or a runaway Slav. The second rule - family jien was excluded, that is, there should not be women among the Cossacks.

      In the pre-Horde period, the Cossacks were in those territories where the Turkic tribes were settled. Mughal in Southeast Kazakhstan and Xinjiang. Chutur-Cossacks of the Northern foothills of the Caucasus. Desht Cossacks - from the Irtysh to the Dniester.

      In the Cossacks everyone was equal. It was commendable among the Turks to be a Cossack in their youth. The aristocrat, if not chosen, was cossacked by a simple Cossack and obeyed the chieftain. Cossacks at one time were the son of Khan Tokhtamysh Jamaladin around 1380, Khan Abu ed-Khair around 1430, Khan Mohamed-Sheybani around 1470, Sultan Khusian around 1450.

      Later, in the post-Horde period, following the first rule, the Turkic Cossacks began to replenish, fugitive Slavs, Litvinins, who fled from their landowners and found refuge with the Turkic Cossacks. But the Slavs could not like the Turks quit the Cossacks and would return home. Therefore, they became a permanent composition. The second rule was later violated. Cossacks Slavs began to acquire wives and initially they were Turkic women. So gradually Slavic blood began to prevail in the Cossacks. Even later, the Russian Cossacks forgot the roots of their origin. But such words as the chieftain, bunchuk, baz-cattle yard, esaul-isaul, the head of the detachment and many others remained in Cossack dialect.

      This ancient Turkic word ҚазаҚ, became not only the self-name of the Slavic Cossacks. But also the self-name of the Kazakh people. In 1468, the sultans Janibek and Giray, dissatisfied with the policies of Khan Abu al-Khair, get out of his power into free people in the Cossacks. But here, violating traditions, it was not alone that they left, but all Turkic tribes subject to them took with them. And they all took the name of Kazak. thus a nation was formed from the tribes.
      1. Jurkovs
        Jurkovs 4 March 2013 06: 21 New
        0
        But what about Russian fairy tales "and the free Cossack Ilya Muromets went not on a straight road", etc.
        1. Beck
          Beck 4 March 2013 12: 51 New
          +1
          Quote: Jurkovs
          But what about Russian fairy tales "and the free Cossack Ilya Muromets went not on a straight road", etc.


          Well, these are fairy tales, myths. The word Cossack in the meaning of free could be attributed to a fairy tale.
          1. Ingvald_Bueny
            Ingvald_Bueny 4 March 2013 18: 50 New
            0
            The quote about Ilya Murovlyanin is not a fairy tale, it is an epic, it is also not a myth, it is a historical reality, of course, mythologized in something, but it had a place to be.
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 4 March 2013 14: 14 New
      +1
      Quote: GalinaNP
      As for modern Kazakhs, their ancestors are Kipchaks, nomadic Kipchak tribes.

      1) Kipshak (Kipchak) is the self-name of only one Turkic clan, most of which are now Kazakhs of the Middle Zhuz. This is one of the largest genera among the Kazakhs, but far from the largest.
      2) Arabs, Persians, Sarts, Tajiks and Caucasians called all Turkic nomads Kipchaks in general. For them, it was a unifying ethnonym, so as not to bother with countless Turkic clans. It was with the Kipchaks that the peoples mentioned were in closest contact. In the same way, the Russians called many nomads "Polovtsy" (the Russian name for the Kipchaks), even if they were of a different clan.
      For example, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars in the Muslim East was called Kipchak, although he comes from the Bersh clan (they live in the territory of western Kazakhstan). Sarts and Tajiks in Turkestan, hiring Turkic clans for military service to protect their khanates, called them all "Kipchaks" also for simplicity.
      1. Ingvald_Bueny
        Ingvald_Bueny 4 March 2013 18: 57 New
        0
        So, where do the Cossacks and Kipchaks, these are different nations, especially since the last Polovtsy disappeared at the behest of the Mongol Khan Batu, he followed them to Hungary, and found them there who managed to take the citizenship of King Bella and become Hungarian subjects. Then the Kipchaks who did not leave with Kotyan fell under the power of the Mongols and quickly assimilated them under the rule of Genghisides.
        And yet, the Cossack is a Russian estate, a Kazakh ethnic group.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 12: 00 New
          +2
          1) "Cossack" until the 15th century was not an ethnonym, but a "lifestyle". In the 15th century, this word became the self-name of a group of Turkic tribes who sent their khan Abulkhair, separated from him and formed their own khanate (Kazak Khandygs / Kazakh Khanate).
          2) The Polovtsy have not disappeared. The bulk of the Polovtsy lived on the territory of present-day Kazakhstan and Central Asia, and in the first half of the 13th century after the fall of the state of Khorezmshah Muhammad, they obeyed Genghis Khan. In the territory of present-day Ukraine and Russia, a relatively small part of the Polovtsians lived. Kotyan Khan was not the most important Kipchak khan, he was a khan of only a small Kipchak kind. He did not want to obey Genghis Khan, and as a result, the Horde drove him to Hungary.
          3) Kipchaks have joined the composition of almost all Turkic peoples, however, most of them are part of the current Kazakhs (Middle Zhuz, Northern Kazakhstan).
          4) The Kipchaks did not assimilate with anyone, this clan lives and lives. Come to Kostanay region and ask a local Kazakh: "Ruyn kim?" ("Who are you by birth?"). And most often you will hear the answer: "Kypshak". Our unifying ethnonyms can change, but generic names have not changed for millennia.
  4. Black
    Black 2 March 2013 11: 29 New
    +3
    The article is a pleasure. I would like to note the following. A superficial look at the arrangement of the Cossack life paints a false picture of the idleness and looseness of the Cossack life, the absence of any kind of economic life. It's not like that at all. Cossacks are not runaway peasants, not bandits or coastal robbers; people cannot live as robbers. Militancy is due to the fact that the Cossacks lived on the rift of ethnic groups, on the border of civilizations.
    "Saryn to the kitschka" was an amusing, profitable and common military business. But the Cossacks are engaged in agriculture; fishing, cattle breeding are traditional occupations of the Don and Volga Cossacks. "Azov feats" of the Cossacks, oddly enough, is a confirmation of this.
    The reasons for the persistence of the Cossacks in capturing Azov were deeper than the desire to dominate the exit to the sea. Our ancestors realized that Azov is the key to the entire Old Field. Whoever wanted to be the master of the Don and the Lower Dnieper, who wanted an end to the constant attacks on the Cossack settlements, who wanted to engage in productive work with calm confidence in the future, he had to, by all means, own the lower reaches of the Don and prevent not only the presence of hostile forces there, but also the crossings of any Horde uluses across the river. In order to fulfill the age-old dreams of a calm working and independent life free from fear and combat anxiety in their own Prison, the Cossacks strove to establish themselves in Azov. The Turks, in turn, understood that, having lost Azov, they would have to leave the North. Caucasus. Therefore, in their plans was not only to keep in their hands the Don delta, but also all the Cossacks "to transfer from the Don and clear the Don River."
    The capture by the Cossacks of Azov is a blow to the magnificent Port! It is a pity that Moscow this time was not able to use the gifts and, in essence, betrayed the feat of the Cossacks.
    1. xan
      xan 2 March 2013 21: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: Chen
      It is a pity that Moscow this time was not able to use the gifts and, in essence, betrayed the feat of the Cossacks.


      Moscow politicians of that time could better see what to do with Azov. The capture of Azov, this is an unequivocal strengthening of Moscow's positions in the bidding with the Brilliant Porta, you only need to know where the Russians played this card. I can say one thing - at the interstate level, such events do not go without consequences, Moscow very rarely when it didn’t take its own, especially given away.
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 2 March 2013 21: 32 New
      0
      Black "This is not at all so. Cossacks are not fugitive peasants, not bandits and not coastal robbers, the people cannot live by robbery."
      However, to go to extremes and deny runaway peasants, robbers is also not worth it. It was both.
      1. Black
        Black 3 March 2013 00: 39 New
        0
        Quote: Nagaibak
        However, to go to extremes and deny runaway peasants, robbers is also not worth it. It was both.


        To trouble and pi .... fart! Sorry for the intemperance.
        It was. As it was not !!!!
        But. Let's separate one from the other. The Cossacks (ignoble, uncivilized, unwashed and uncatonic) it was !!!! from a long time before, a long time before the offended leg bastard ran to him. - and became attributed Cossacks.
        And the Cossacks are neither white nor fluffy! And who is without sin? call me a nation that has gone all its history not from God, but only to him !!! ???
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 3 March 2013 07: 46 New
          -1
          Black "It was. How it was not !!!!"
          Let's separate, I do not mind. Just once the Cossacks write a separate nation from the Russians. I look Vona-Yaitsky Cossacks-nationalists appeared. It surprises me and amuses - is it still some Aryans? And the attributed Cossacks, why aren’t they related to the natural?
    3. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 4 March 2013 14: 07 New
      +1
      Quote: Chen
      But the Cossacks are engaged in agriculture; fishing, cattle breeding - traditional occupations of the Don and Volga Cossacks.

      In principle, I agree with your post, but I would like to clarify regarding agriculture. Until recently, the Cossacks did not engage in agriculture. And for such an attempt, the Cossack-farmer killed his own. The main sphere of the non-military economy of the Cossacks is cattle breeding (horses, rams), less often - fishing (moreover, the most seedy Cossacks were usually engaged in this) and salt production.
      Agriculture began to develop among the Cossacks only in the 19th century. Especially when real Russian peasants joined the Cossacks (on the new Asian borders - in Siberia and Turkestan). But usually the Cossacks' agriculture was in the most primitive form, and on occasion the Cossacks abandoned the cultivation of the land and returned to the usual cattle breeding. Moreover, cattle breeding in the Steppe is much more efficient than agriculture. Until now, the steppe of Russia and Kazakhstan (virgin lands) is a "zone of risky farming". But with grazing of giant flocks and herds, on the contrary, there are no problems.
      1. Beck
        Beck 4 March 2013 14: 56 New
        0
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Until recently, the Cossacks did not engage in agriculture.


        Already the Slavic Cossacks (Don) for the protection of the south-eastern borders of Russia received annually from Moscow payment in bread (grain). And when, I do not remember at what time, Moscow raised the issue of tillage in the lands of the villages, the Cossacks muttered. - "The Tsar wants to make us a man, forcing the land to plow." Tillage among the Cossacks developed rather late.
        1. Ingvald_Bueny
          Ingvald_Bueny 4 March 2013 18: 42 New
          0
          In the Cossack milieu of pre-revolutionary Russia in the 18th century, simply the popular word "omuzhichit" meant "enslave". However, the Cossacks were engaged in farming and were good winegrowers. You can learn more from the memoirs of contemporaries of that time.
          1. Beck
            Beck 4 March 2013 19: 16 New
            +1
            Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
            In the Cossack milieu of pre-revolutionary Russia in the 18th century, simply the popular word "omuzhichit" meant "enslave"


            18th century is not 16.
      2. Ingvald_Bueny
        Ingvald_Bueny 4 March 2013 18: 47 New
        0
        Please provide a source of information about what kind of farming, the Cossacks dealt with the Cossacks. Or do you think that real Russian peasants did not join the ranks of the Cossacks until the 19th century? Surprise, but in the 19th century it was almost impossible to join the Cossacks, you are familiar with such a phenomenon as the "register", and thanks to it, Russian Cossacks began to transfer the status of a Cossack to their descendants.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 12: 15 New
          +1
          "The main grain growers of today's Russia - the Cossacks - began to plow the land relatively late. Back in the 18th century, the Cossacks themselves did not engage in agriculture, as there was a rule:" Whoever of the Cossacks plows the land and sows bread, beat and rob that Cossack. " leases were taken by nonresidents, or serfs worked for them. Only at the end of the 19th century, the Cossacks' farming became the leading industry, and bread was the basis of food ... "http://festival.1september.ru/articles/518235/

          In peacetime, the main occupation of the Cossacks was fishing and hunting; there was no tillage at first; when it began to develop mainly among the upper Cossacks, it was strictly prohibited. So, the letter of military circle sent to the hopers and Ust-Medveditsky towns forbade plowing the land and sowing bread, for which they "beat to death and rob."
          http://www.philol.msu.ru/~lex/td/?pid=0121843&oid=012184

          In 1690, the army circle, having learned that they had begun to sow bread on the Khopru and Medveditsa rivers, announced that no one would plow the land and sow no bread: "... and if they begin to plow, they should beat him to death and rob him."
          http://pandatours.ru:8180/ind/i/view?id=78

          And if you take the majority of pre-revolutionary books on Cossacks everywhere it is noted that until recently, Cossacks killed a Cossack who became a plowman. It is only about 200 years as the Cossacks began to plow the land. And before that, in peacetime, only cattle breeding, hunting, a bit of fishing and salt production.
  5. Metlik
    Metlik 2 March 2013 12: 54 New
    +3
    The Cossacks have a great history. You can make a beautiful legend out of it, or you can try to take from their experience something for modern life. For example, to use private initiative in military affairs more.
  6. воронов
    воронов 2 March 2013 19: 42 New
    +1
    Very interesting article, put +
  7. Setrac
    Setrac 2 March 2013 23: 30 New
    -2
    It turns out somehow strange. Yermak won, although Yermak was killed, somehow. Yermak annexed Siberia, but already under Catherine the second Russia is again fighting for Siberia, this war was modestly called "the Pugachev uprising". Thanks to such lies, all sorts of Fomenkovites find their supporters.
    1. Black
      Black 3 March 2013 00: 42 New
      +2
      Quote: Setrac
      Yermak won, although Yermak was killed, somehow. Yermak annexed Siberia, but already under Catherine II, Russia was again fighting for Siberia, this war was modestly called "the Pugachev uprising


      The namesake, it seems to me, you have a hash in your head.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 3 March 2013 12: 01 New
        0
        If there hadn’t been a mishmash in the history, maybe there would have been orderly rows in the head?
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 3 March 2013 07: 48 New
      0
      Setrac "the second Russia is fighting for Siberia again"
      Che why the dog died!
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 3 March 2013 12: 03 New
        -1
        What is the Jewish habit of pulling out a phrase from the text, quote at least the whole sentence. In addition, specify what is wrong. Maybe you are typing the number of messages?
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 3 March 2013 15: 19 New
          0
          Setrac "What a Jewish habit of pulling a phrase out of a text"
          This is my attitude to the "second conquest of Siberia." For some reason, some are trying to imagine anything from the Pugachev uprising. This is your "type added Ermak Siberia" and there is gonevo - and complete.
          And yet it is not worth the Jews ascribing obscure habits, hehe.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 3 March 2013 17: 36 New
            0
            Quote: Nagaibak
            For some reason, some are trying to imagine from the Pugachev uprising what horrible.

            This is because the official version is somehow muddy, they invent all kinds of absurdities, unfortunately history as a science suffers from a lack of evidence. We are offered how to believe in the church.
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 3 March 2013 20: 18 New
              0
              Setrac "This is because the official version is kind of muddy, they are inventing all sorts of absurdities, unfortunately history as a science suffers from a lack of evidence."
              Why did you get all this? Do you doubt the development of Siberia by the Russian people? Or how? The construction of existing cities is no longer an argument for you? Maybe the gap in basic knowledge of the school curriculum is to blame? Or do you think that the bloodthirsty Catherine 2 finished off Pugachev, the last Tartar? In Tobolsk there is an archive go there, swallow archival dust. I assure you, you will become a fan of traditional historical science. And even if there were any country in Siberia, it would have been known from other peoples and states. Therefore, I wrote about a suddenly dead dog.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 4 March 2013 16: 38 New
                -1
                I believe that Russians lived in Siberia before Ermak. Your "archive dust" refers to the 17-19th century, I can also suggest you fly to Mars and prove the absence or presence of Martians.
                I want to understand how historians get their results, and I don’t see anything scientific in the methods of historians.
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 4 March 2013 19: 14 New
                  +1
                  Setrac
                  "I believe that Russians lived in Siberia before Yermak."
                  Where is it?
                  Setrac "Your" archive dust "belongs to the 17-19th century"
                  Do you have any better sources? And what century? Russians were in Siberia before Ermak. But consolidation occurred after his campaign. And so the ear-makers went, the Novgorod princes sponsored campaigns and trips to Yugra and sent the rati for the Stone.
                  Setrac "I want to understand how historians get their results, and I don't see anything scientific in the methods of historians."
                  It’s not for you to judge; you have no idea about this.
                  1. Setrac
                    Setrac 4 March 2013 21: 13 New
                    0
                    Quote: Nagaibak
                    Do you have any better sources? And what century?

                    I’m talking about this - there are no sources, it is not clear from what the story was written.

                    Quote: Nagaibak
                    It’s not for you to judge; you have no idea about this.

                    It is for us to judge, our children are being embroiled in this propaganda. It is such a science - understandable, only it does not concern history - history is not science, history is religion, with its canons, with its adherents.
                    1. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 5 March 2013 07: 46 New
                      +1
                      Setrac "That's what I'm talking about - there are no sources, it is not clear what the story was written from."
                      Sources on the history of Siberia appeared with the advent of the Russians. A huge layer of them has not yet been studied. It is connected with the economic activity of Russians in the region, etc. Well, it's your little thing ... It's easier to declare Pugachev an alien ...
                      Since you don’t have any data at all, here you are walking around in history, declining it poor in every way. They hid everything from us, they didn’t tell us ... These are all the words ... Hehe ...
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 12: 23 New
                        +1
                        on Siberia there is still a lot of information in eastern languages. It is another matter that Russian historiography does not need it. Like, Siberia is Russian, period. And how the Siberian khans and local peoples lived there, the Russian majority does not need to know. Which of the ordinary Russians in Russia suspects the existence of the Turkic kaganates, the Jurchens, the Kyrgyz state on the territory of the Russian Federation? The Russians don't need this. The whole history of Siberia is presented in a primitive way: "Before the Russians, there was nothing and no one in Siberia, the brave Ermak annexed Siberia, Siberia gives a lot of goodies to Russia."
                      2. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 5 March 2013 14: 23 New
                        0
                        Marek Rozny "There is a lot of information on Siberia in eastern languages."
                        To read it is necessary to know the oriental languages. Marek, did you ever read Russian texts of, say, the 17th century? I tell you, the lesson is not for the faint of heart. Not a damn thing. Each clerk has his own style, and ugly like that of doctors hehe ...
                      3. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 16: 06 New
                        +1
                        Oriental materials, if desired, can be read in Russian.
                        As for me, I speak Turkic languages. I read and understand the transcribed ancient Turkic texts from the runic and medieval Latin scripts easily. The Türkic language is changing very slowly (unlike the inflected Germanic and Slavic languages).

                        I read Arabic, Persian and Chinese sources in Russian and Kazakh translations (we have a special state program, according to which the landing parties of our historians sit in the archives of neighboring countries and pull out everything related to our history, all that passed by Soviet researchers is a gigantic amount information).

                        Regarding Russian texts, I usually read in an adapted version, essno. From old texts "eyes break". Although, under the influence of Olzhas Suleimenov, I once eagerly read old Russian texts to find Türkisms) There was such a practice) This practice significantly strengthened my knowledge of linguistics.

                        Z.Y. Well, to brag, I am fluent in English and German, I speak poorly, but easily translate from Dutch, Norwegian. And now I'm studying a Persian group of languages. Then I want to take up the Mongolian. Painfully language seems interesting to me.
                      4. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 5 March 2013 17: 38 New
                        +1
                        Marek Rozny "ZY. Well, to brag - I speak English and German fluently, I speak badly, but I can easily translate from Dutch, Norwegian. And now I study the Persian group of languages. Then I want to take up Mongolian. Painfully the language seems interesting to me. "
                        Ah well done !!!
                      5. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 17: 58 New
                        0
                        hi Like a gritsa, rakhmet is very much))))
                      6. Beck
                        Beck 5 March 2013 18: 24 New
                        0
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        Ah well done !!!


                        And I think where Marek inserts such data into his comments. Well, nothing to say. Zhigit Boldyn - Batyr Bolasyn.
                    2. Beck
                      Beck 5 March 2013 18: 29 New
                      0
                      Quote: Nagaibak
                      Ah well done !!!


                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      Like a gritsa, rahmet is very much


                      And then I think where Marek is from is inserting such data into his comments. And it won that. What can I say. Zhigit Boldyn - Batyr Bolasyn.
      2. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 12: 18 New
        +1
        Quote: Setrac
        I believe that the Russians lived in Siberia before Yermak.

        In what Russian cities did the Slavs live before Ermak in Siberia?
        What Russian cemeteries are of the pre-Mermak period?
        And why didn’t the mythical Russian Siberians help Yermak during his invasion of the Siberian Khanate?
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 5 March 2013 13: 01 New
          0
          http://mdrussia.ru/index.php/topic/4184-древние-сибирские-города-призраки-–-до-п
          approach /
          There are cities, you are just too lazy to go into the search.
          Anticipating your objections, I’ll say this if the states of Siberia were non-Russian, Western propaganda would have shouted them, as long as England exists, it wants to tear Siberia away from Russia.
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 5 March 2013 14: 18 New
            -1
            [quote = Setrac]
            "http://mdrussia.ru/index.php/topic/4184-ancient-siberian-
            ghost towns
            –––––––
            rihoda / "
            He went in, looked not impressed. The bulk of these cities have non-Russian names. He laughed at the included Carocarum. But, for all of Siberia and these cities will not be enough.
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 15: 55 New
            +1
            gyyyy, the ancient Turkic and Scythian cities attributed to the Slavic?)))))))))))))))))))))))
  • RAMBO
    RAMBO 3 March 2013 10: 34 New
    -1
    I advise the author of the article to read the book of the hereditary Don Cossack Evgraf Savelyev entitled "The Ancient History of the Cossacks", written at the beginning of the last century.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 3 March 2013 12: 09 New
    0
    Dear Chёny, I’ll explain it in relation to the Volga region, the events described in the article are about the time of Ivan the Terrible, however, even under the Romanovs, Russia is again fighting in the middle and lower Volga region, we know this war as the uprising of Stepan Razin.
  • Simon
    Simon 3 March 2013 21: 48 New
    0
    Yes, the Cossacks lived in the Volga region during the time of Ivan the Terrible. recourse .
  • Bully
    Bully 3 March 2013 22: 22 New
    +1
    From the unfinished book of Bessonov Boris Ivanovich:
    "... In Russian chronicles, the Cossacks were first mentioned in the 11th century as a special military formation that lived on the border of the Ryazan principality and defended its borders. There is no doubt, however, that in reality the military doctrine of the Cossacks was formed much earlier. Already in the third century from R. Kh. There are successful sea expeditions of the Slavs on plows of one-tree trees from the mouth of the Don (Tanais) to the Mediterranean Sea, which ended in the liberation of tens of thousands of slaves (which Gibbon, describing these events, does not approve of). By the way, Gibbon "for some reason" called the participants of this expedition Goths and the Germans, despite the direct indications of contemporaries that it was a sea raid of the Scythians (Zosima, cit. 136 after Gibbon, vol. 1, p. 450), by whose name the Russians were called until the 17th century. There is an even more accurate indication of Scincellus ( P. 382, ​​cit. 129 on Gibbon, vol. 1, p. 450) that these campaigns, in which more than five hundred odnodrevok participated, were organized by one of the Slavic (Scythian) tribes - Heruli. From the standpoint of the "English historian, one can see the" social order "of the contemporary German society, which he, as a professional, followed.

    But for us, it is not Gibbon's "mistake" that is important, but the method of movement he indicated and the ways of attack "ready" on the possessions of the Empire: on the Black Sea coast of present-day Turkey (Trebizond, first expedition), Chalcedon and Nicomedia (Bosphorus, second expedition), and Athens ( coast of Greece, third expedition).
    If you even believe Gibbon (and Hitler who echoed him) that the campaigns were led by purebred Aryans, ethnic Germans, it would seem very strange that subsequently these Aryans never used such a brilliantly proven strategic weapon: the rooks are odnodrevki in their wars. And the Germans, with their cult of arms, would hardly refuse the opportunity to continue such successful raids.

    On the other hand, the Slavs (vandals, geruls, wounds, swears, russians, Russians, don, Volga, and Zaporozhye Cossacks) did not stop using this method of waging war for more than one and a half thousand years, starting with R.Kh. and ending in the 18th century: expeditions of Askold, Oleg, Igor and Svyatoslav to Byzantium (to the Bosphorus and to the Danube), Stenka Razin (to Persia), Ermak and Khabarov (to Siberia), Don and Zaporozhye Cossacks to Turkey (Azov, Trebizond, Constantinople , on the Danube). Note that the trajectories of some of their campaigns exactly coincide with those of the ancient Heruls in the 3rd century. One can say the Cossacks walked along the trodden path of their ancestors, about whose campaigns they undoubtedly heard in the oral legends of their grandfathers-great-grandfathers. And the purpose of the campaigns was exactly the same: firstly, the liberation of slaves, their fellow tribesmen from bondage, and secondly, the "sharing" of unjustly acquired wealth with the slave-owning countries.

    There is no doubt about the existence of such, now almost lost epics among the Cossacks in the 16th - 18th centuries, if even in the 20th century, the author's grandfather sang to him an epic about the campaign of the "Don Cossacks": "Oh, on resinous plows, but a small number, a small number - less than a thousand, straight from the Don River, into the Turkish Sea, and from Turkey and straight to Greece, to the kingdom of the Volokhs, the kingdom of Kashcheevo "to the" cunning city of Athens ". The Volokhs tried to destroy the "Cossacks": "The army flew in - a black cloud, but for each - a hundred volokhs", but the "Cossacks" rescued the "rolling pitch", "the warriors stood up from the very ground, no matter what you look at, without weapons. all rotten rags, instead of sabers they have scythes with pitchforks. And they went to mow the terrible volokhs and lay their bodies in rows. " Everything ended well, the Cossacks rescued one hundred thousand "Orthodox" from the cruel and cowardly volokhs, instead of water "drinking the blood of people." Before returning home, they buried the fallen in battles and "burned the letters of the Kashcheevs," so that the Lord would repose "Orthodox souls, ruined by the crafty Greeks ..."
    1. Jurkovs
      Jurkovs 4 March 2013 06: 25 New
      0
      I do not think that ancient Russian storytellers were inclined to use borrowed words: "and the free Cossack Ilya Muromets went not on a straight road" and so on.
  • rezident
    rezident 3 March 2013 22: 34 New
    -2
    You read about them, it seems like bandits and punishers.
  • Atash
    Atash 4 March 2013 07: 25 New
    0
    "When you read about them, you get the impression of bandits and punishers."

    It was so. Read what the Cossacks got up in the Time of Troubles. I have a friend from the Volga Germans. His grandmother had the most terrible memories in life of the Cossacks. It was not so long ago. And when Warsaw was captured by Suvorov, the Cossacks also made a sharp difference.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 4 March 2013 13: 58 New
      +1
      Wrangel about the Cossacks of Mamontov:
      "... The regiments of General Mamontov returned encumbered with huge booty in the form of herds of pedigree cattle, carts of manufactures and groceries, table and church silver. Coming to the front of our units, General Mamontov sent greetings to the" native Don "by radio and said that he was carrying" Quiet Don "and" family and friends ... rich gifts. "Then there was a list of" gifts ", including church utensils and vestments.
      And Vereshchagin, who was a member of the Russian invasion of Turkestan and Uyguristan (the current XUAR of the PRC), has descriptions of how the Cossacks never missed the opportunity to plunder the locals in a trite way.
      Of course, in war, everyone is trying to rob the enemy (even a consanguineous one), but the fact is the fact - the discipline of the Cossacks was significantly lower than that of the soldiers of the regular army. To keep the Cossacks in check, a cruel Yassa is needed. They are too free daredevils to blindly obey the "German" orders. This is their advantage, this is also their disadvantage.
      1. Ingvald_Bueny
        Ingvald_Bueny 4 March 2013 18: 36 New
        0
        Uv. marek you need to familiarize yourself with such a topic as "Russian and Ukrainian Cossacks", then you will not have such absurd statements as that the Cossacks' discipline was lower than in other military formations of the Empire.
        What you call "robbing" the enemy is called war trophies, and so these same trophies were taken by everyone from the Russians, Germans, and French to the Japanese and the tribes of Papua New Guinea. Discipline in the Cossack formations was at the level, for example, they were driven through whips for misconduct.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 12: 27 New
          +1
          I know the topic of the Cossacks better than you.
          Regarding discipline, read the sources on Russian wars. I do not belittle the Cossack courage, but that being the Türks, that being the Cossacks, that being the military of the Russian Empire, the Cossacks had an ugly discipline.
          Regarding military trophies. A military trophy is what you took in battle from the enemy. And here I am talking about the banal robbery of civilians.
  • Atash
    Atash 4 March 2013 08: 29 New
    -1
    Pugachev's "uprising" was suspiciously organized. Some Frenchmen were with him, he himself was of strange origin. Stepan Razin had a really big rabble of robbers, an unsystematic robbery, a classic spontaneous uprising. Most importantly, the consequence of the "uprising" of the EP was a hastily concluded peace with Turkey, the troops had to be withdrawn from the front to suppress some kind of peasant revolt.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 4 March 2013 12: 53 New
      0
      Atash "he himself is of strange origin."
      Actually, he is from the Don Cossacks.
      You guys in Kazakhstan on the history of Russia, the teachers are having fun as much as I can see. Hehe ...
      The uprising of Pugachev in Soviet textbooks was called the peasant war.
      There were 4 of them. The uprising of S. Razin is the same with them. Where did you see unsystematicity at Razin? Spontaneity? The authorities barely suppressed him.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 4 March 2013 13: 42 New
        +1
        In Kazakhstan, the uprisings of Russian peasants are not covered in textbooks. Only a little mention of the Pugachevsky revolt, since there were partly Kazakhs with Bashkirs, and because this action partially took place on the territory of the Kazakh steppe. At the same time, there are no special differences in the interpretation of those events compared with the Soviet version of the presentation of the Pugachev region.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 4 March 2013 14: 02 New
          0
          Marek Rozny "In Kazakhstan, the uprisings of Russian peasants are not covered in textbooks."
          -Tady Oh !!! I mean, then it’s understandable.
          Marek Rozny "At the same time, there are no special differences in the interpretation of those events in comparison with the Soviet version of the presentation of the Pugachevism."
          And thank God!!!
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 4 March 2013 14: 24 New
            +1
            And also about the interpretations in modern Kazakhstani textbooks. Very often there are articles in the Russian Federation, in which Kazakh textbooks are reproached for the fact that they negatively assessed the role of Russia in tsarist times, and that the actions of the Russian Empire there are called colonialist. But even here the Kazakhs did not invent anything new - this topic was assessed in the same way in the textbooks of SOVIET Kazakhstan. So the Kazakhs did not ascribe anything, but simply transferred this topic from the old Soviet textbooks on the history of the Kazakh SSR. They just stopped presenting the Kazakh khans in the guise of "exploiters of the working people".
            However, coupled with the reflection of the negative processes that took place in the 30s in Kazakhstan (mass famine, Stalinist repressions), to Russian "analysts" of CIS textbooks, all this seems to be an attempt to "rewrite history." They simply didn’t read the textbook of the Kazakh SSR, then “offended” feelings would not arise in vain.
            In general, the industrialization and urbanization of Kazakhstan is presented as a blessing for the republic. But the fact is noted that the Kazakhs of the Vollens-Nolens have undergone deep Russification, which essno is not gut. And so the current senior officials still go to concerts dedicated to Komsomol and praise their youth there))) I'm not sure that somewhere else in the CIS local officials openly publicize the Komsomol movement))))
  • faser
    faser 4 March 2013 08: 37 New
    0
    It is interesting how the author explains that the Kazakh Khanate has the right to head only the descendant of Genghis Khan. i.e. from the Torah clan.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 4 March 2013 13: 02 New
      +1
      Phaser
      after the Genghisides conquered the central part of Eurasia, they acted on the principle of the Turkic Khaganates that previously existed in the Steppe - namely, the Kagan (the most important khan) divided the state into uluses (allotments, autonomous republics, to use modern terms), headed by khans their eldest sons. All uluses ruled de jure exclusively by the Chingizids (although de facto sometimes the non-Chingizids had de facto power, for example, Tamerlan is a native of the Barlas family, and not a descendant of Red-bearded). Ivan the Terrible at some point, in order to comply with the ceremonial customs of that time, also put Genghiside at the head, while himself modestly putting himself on the sidelines. When the Muscovite state became stronger and there was no longer any need for mimicry to communicate with other fragments of the Horde, he pushed the Genghiside away and officially took power into his own hands. At the same time, the rulers of other uluses pretended to consider Ivan the Terrible a native of the Genghisid family, which was emphasized in all diplomatic documents during correspondence with Moscow.
      The Russian state (as before China) threw the Genghisides off the throne in their country. The Kazakh Khanate, right up to the 19th century, was ruled in the old fashioned manner by the Genghisides. We have not had other dynasties since the 13th century.
      Z.Y. Before the Genghisides, the Turks from the 5th century usually ruled by another dynasty - the Ashin clan, which was exterminated by the Genghisids.
      Z.Z.Y. Although Genghisides in the Kazakh steppe lost their right to the khan’s throne in the 19th century under the Russian Empire, until the revolution they played a very prominent role in the life of the Kazakhs. Sultans (exclusively Genghisides) were appointed by the Russian authorities to various government posts. Many Genghisides were officers and generals of the Russian army.
      In Soviet and modern times, the Chingizids in Kazakhstan are also noticeable - among them there are many very educated people who have contributed to the development of modern Kazakhstan in various fields of activity.
      1. Ingvald_Bueny
        Ingvald_Bueny 4 March 2013 18: 12 New
        0
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        When the Muscovite state became stronger and there was no longer any need for mimicry to communicate with other fragments of the Horde, he pushed the Genghiside away and officially took power into his own hands. At the same time, the rulers of other uluses pretended to consider Ivan the Terrible a native of the Genghisid family, which was emphasized in all diplomatic documents during correspondence with Moscow.

        Uv. Muscovite Rus was not a fragment of the Horde, for the reason that, despite some concessions to the Horde khans, Muscovy was always looking for ways to free itself from the yoke. Relations between Eastern Russia and the Horde were vassal, but if you understand what it is, you should know that, despite the dependence, the vassal is not part of the suzerain state.
        Moscow did not enter the Jochi ulus, but was occupied by the Horde and paid tribute to protect itself from raids and robberies by the invaders.
        Could you provide the texts of those documents where Ivan Vasilyevich the Terrible appears in "business correspondence" with the "rulers of other uluses" Chingizid?

        Quote: Marek Rozny
        The Russian state (as before China) threw the Genghisides off the throne in their country.

        There are no facts of the presence of Genghisids on the thrones of the Russian state in history, you need to familiarize yourself with such a term as vasity and study the question of the occupation of Russia by the Horde.

        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Before the Genghisides, the Turks from the 5th century usually ruled by another dynasty - the Ashin clan, which was exterminated by the Genghisids.

        The Türks as a union of tribes that arose from different nationalities as a result of the passionary movement of the Huns to the West of Eurasia, and then evicted by the Avars to Altai, appeared in the 5th century. The so-called "Turkic Khaganate" existed for only two hundred years, and fell as a result of the war with the Chinese Empire, although before that the northern kingdoms of China paid tribute to them.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 13: 33 New
          +2
          1) What do you represent as a "part of the Horde"? The Horde were supposed to cut out and populate the ruins of Muscovy with steppe inhabitants? You come up with a European pattern to the Horde. There is one vassal. And in Asia, this concept is completely different. In fact, a vassal state in Asia is part of a dominion state. With all that it implies. Dominion laws also apply in the territory of the vassals.
          2) Regarding the communication of Ivan the Terrible with other uluses of the disintegrated empire, it is better to read in Vadim Trepavlov in a number of books. Moreover, it is difficult to blame Eurasianism or Horde. Rather, the opposite))))
          3) In the 13-15th century, the Russian prince was an analogue of the governor of the region, or rather, even the president of the autonomous republic. Khan is an analogue of the president.
          4) Avars, Huns - these are all Turkic-speaking peoples. The Türkic Kaganate was divided into other Kaganates (West Türkic, East Türkic). In turn, the new khanates-fragments then crushed again (Turgesh khanate, Karluksky, Khazarsky, etc.). But all these khanates were controlled only by people from the Ashin clan.
          By the way, regarding "only 200 years". The USSR did not manage to exist that much. And the collapse of the Turkic kaganates is not associated with military operations with the Chinese. The Han people lost almost all the battles and wars. But on the other hand, internal contradictions, the struggle for supreme power and the skill of the Chinese in inciting and intriguing with their neighbors played their role.
          1. Beck
            Beck 5 March 2013 18: 47 New
            +1
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            And the collapse of the Turkic Khaganates is not associated with hostilities with the Chinese. Almost all the battles and wars of the Han people were purged. But then the internal contradictions, the struggle for supreme power and the skill of the Chinese in the incitement and intrigue of the neighbors - played a role


            I will add my own. The disintegration of the Turkic states also contributed to the disgusting succession system. This institute almost completely worked. While authoritative khans and khagans sat on the thrones everything was in openwork. As soon as he died, his successor could no longer count on the strength of power that his father had. Well, let it reach the grandson. Then the wayward leaders of the left and right wings, the Sultans, Beklarbeks felt equal to the khans and considered their power in the patrimony higher than the khan. Hence the Nogai, Mamai. Hence the fragmentation.

            And further. Which was noted even by Chinese diplomats at the Huns. They said that many things can be done through women. Through the hansh, sultana. I remember in Soviet times, not one secretary of the regional committee flew because of his wives.
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 6 March 2013 08: 14 New
              +1
              Beck "The disgusting succession system also contributed to the collapse of the Turkic states."
              Ladder right in Russia was the same among the Turks. Hence the mess. Here and there.
      2. Atash
        Atash 6 March 2013 09: 02 New
        0
        That Genghiside - Simeon Bekbolatovich?
  • Atash
    Atash 4 March 2013 17: 33 New
    0
    Quote: Nagaibak
    Do you guys in Kazakhstan on the history of Russia teachers have fun to the fullest

    He studied at the Soviet school. I do not advise anyone to study history using official textbooks. This is not physics. Official historical science is a phenomenon in itself.
    "The two lives of Pugachev - the Cossack and the leader - definitely do not fit together. Until a certain moment we have before us an ordinary person ... in the war he did not rise above the cornet, and then he broke into vagrancy, then he made stupid adventures. And suddenly everything changes - in In a matter of weeks, this vagabond managed to charm the not so gullible Cossack elders, it is suspiciously easy to break up rather large military units, to acquire prisoners with officers, exiled foreigners, German volunteers, to create effective governing bodies like the Military Collegium ... "http: //www.modernlib .ru / books / burovskiy_andrey_mihaylovich_bushkov_aleksandr_ale
    ksandrovich / rossiya_kotoroy_ne_bilo_zagadki_versii_gipotezi_2 / read_34 /

    Quote: Setrac
    I want to understand how historians get their results, and I don’t see anything scientific in the methods of historians.

    Historical essays A. Bushkova not read?

    Quote: Beck
    "The Tsar wants to make us a man, forcing the land to plow"

    I read almost the same thing about Kazakhs. There was a proverb like "whoever digs in the ground, he digs his own grave." It seems, indeed, that the Cossacks and Kazakhs were once the same thing.
    1. Ingvald_Bueny
      Ingvald_Bueny 4 March 2013 18: 27 New
      0
      I agree with you when Kazakhs and Cossacks were one and the same and together went from the Russian ghetto-Cossacks. Moreover, the Cossacks were originally ghetto-Russians who were part of the tribal union of the Aors or Urus. Then part of the ancient Uruses left the territory of Parthia and Sogdiana, to the West, while the other part was later mixed with young Turkic-speaking tribes. The word Cossack itself is the so-called Iranism in the Turkic language. Thus, the Kazakh ethnic group is the result of the interaction of Slavic and Turkic ethnic groups.
      On the other hand, Russians as a people and as Cossacks learned about the Kazakhs only at the beginning of the 20th century, before that, the Kazakhs were called Kyrgyz, and Strash, Middle and Younger Zhuzes were Kyrgyz under the rule of the Chingizid Mongols. The question is also what is the name Kazakh, some scientists believe the Kyrgyz were given the Dzungars, others believe that the Kyrgyz took the name of the Kazakhs on behalf of the Yaitsky Cossacks who saved the younger and middle zhuzes from the Manchus. So there are many opinions. In any case, if we compare the culture of Cossacks and Kazakhs, it is different, like different religion and different anthropology and genealogy. All the same, the Cossack is an estate of the Russian people, and Kazakh is an ethnic group.
      Sincerely.
      1. Ingvald_Bueny
        Ingvald_Bueny 4 March 2013 19: 13 New
        0
        I agree with you when Kazakhs and Cossacks were one and the same and together went from the Russian ghetto-Cossacks. Moreover, the Cossacks were originally ghetto-Russians who were part of the tribal union of the Aors or Urus. Then part of the ancient Uruses left the territory of Parthia and Sogdiana, to the West, while the other part was later mixed with young Turkic-speaking tribes. The word Cossack itself is the so-called Iranism in the Turkic language. Thus, the Kazakh ethnic group is the result of the interaction of Slavic and Turkic ethnic groups.
        On the other hand, Russians as a people and as Cossacks learned about the Kazakhs only at the beginning of the 20th century, before that, the Kazakhs were called Kyrgyz, and Strash, Middle and Younger Zhuzes were Kyrgyz under the rule of the Chingizid Mongols. The question is also that the name is Kazakh, some scientists believe the Kyrgyz were given the Dzungars, others believe that the Kyrgyz took the name of the Kazakhs on behalf of the Yaitsky Cossacks who saved the younger and middle zhuzes from the Dzhungars. So there are many opinions. In any case, if we compare the culture of Cossacks and Kazakhs, it is different, like different religion and different anthropology and genealogy. All the same, the Cossack is an estate of the Russian people, and Kazakh is an ethnic group.
        Sincerely.
        1. Beck
          Beck 4 March 2013 19: 35 New
          0
          Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
          Moreover, the Cossacks were originally ghetto-Russians who were part of the tribal union of the Aors or Urus. Then part of the ancient Uruses left the territory of Parthia and Sogdiana


          I am silent about Parthia and Sogdiana. as about the ghetto = Rus. I don’t know where you got all this from. From an alternative story, or what?

          Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
          Thus, the Kazakh ethnic group is the result of the interaction of Slavic and Turkic ethnic groups.


          The Kazakh ethnos was created on the basis of the Turkic tribes of the steppes of Kazakhstan. Which in turn were a cross between Turkic tribes and Indo-Europeans - Indo-Aryans of the Hadron culture of the Iranian-speaking group. The Slavs sat on the territory of modern Poland.

          Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
          On the other hand, Russians as a people and as Cossacks learned about Kazakhs only at the beginning of the 20th century, before that Kazakhs were called Kyrgyz


          I already wrote. The self-name of my people is ҚазаҚ. When in the middle of the 17th century the Kazakh steppes began to become the territory of the Russian Empire, the tsarist administration came to a standstill. There were Russian Cossacks, and then another Cossacks appeared. And how to separate them? Indeed, in the document circulation complete chaos will come. So, to prevent this from happening, they began to call us Kyrgyz, Kaisaks, and Kyrgyz Kaysaks. (At the very beginning, read my comment on the formation of the ethnonym KazaK).
          In 1924, another problem arose in the formation of autonomous republics. It was necessary to distinguish between the true Kirghiz of the Tien Shan mountains and the steppe population, which since tsarist times was called the Kirghiz. It was then, given that we had KazAK, the Soviet government, and the last letter K changed to X. Since then, Kazakh has gone. But the karahs even wrote in Kazakh about themselves in Kazakh, and Cossack. Sen kim bolasyn? “Who will you be?” Men ҚazaҚ - I am a Cossack. It is only in Russian that we continue to write Kazakh.

          Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
          In any case, if we compare the culture of Cossacks and Kazakhs, it is different,


          Laziness is repeated. If you want, read my first comment on the page.
      2. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 4 March 2013 19: 24 New
        0
        Ingvald_Bueny "All the same, the Cossack is an estate of the Russian people, and the Kazakh is an ethnos."
        I would say Russian Cossacks are a subethnos of the Russian people. Why Russian Cossacks, because there were also non-Russians by nationality Cossacks.
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 4 March 2013 19: 22 New
      +1
      Atash "it is suspiciously easy to crush fairly large military units"
      The successes of Pugachev at the initial stage are connected precisely with the fact that there were no large military formations in those places. Give an example, please, who did he break there? As far as I remember, he was constantly losing. I do not see any brilliant victories, except for taking small border fortresses protected by disabled teams.
    3. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 5 March 2013 08: 14 New
      +1
      Atash "The two lives of Pugachev - the Cossack and the leader - definitely do not coincide. Until a certain moment we face an ordinary person ... in the war he did not rise higher than a cornet, and after that he fell into vagrancy"
      1. At the tipping points of history, unexpected characters take the lead.
      It was in civilian fashion: V.I. Chapaev, S.M. Budenny, Azin is a simple one. The bulk of the promoted from ensigns and non-commissioners. During World War I, they also did not particularly show themselves, in the sense, from the commander’s side. But in the civil war ... in turmoil ... please. So, there is nothing surprising in Pugachev’s biography. The heroes of the civil war also did not know that they would command armies and divisions.
      "I read almost the same thing about the Kazakhs. There was a proverb like" whoever digs in the ground, he digs his own grave. "It seems, indeed, the Cossacks and Kazakhs once were one and the same."
      2. In a sense, an interesting conclusion, I can add that even earlier we all ran in loincloths and with spears. And the prey was one mammoth. So that we are all in one sense the same thing.
    4. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 5 March 2013 13: 46 New
      +1
      Quote: Atash
      There was a proverb like "whoever digs in the ground, he digs his own grave."

      Kazakhs and Mongols believed that arable devices inflict wounds on the ground)))
  • rezident
    rezident 4 March 2013 23: 49 New
    +2
    The Volga region did not shake weakly even before Pugachev. Pugachev got into Soviet textbooks because he rebelled on social grounds. He had victories and the truth is small. And where is he against the regular army. Buyan until the Suvorov army arrived.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 5 March 2013 07: 54 New
      +1
      rezident "Bujanil until the Suvorov army arrived."
      He was beaten before. Bibikov, Michelson. But Suvorov was late.
  • Atash
    Atash 5 March 2013 06: 41 New
    -2
    Quote: Nagaibak
    ngvald_Bueny "All the same, the Cossack is an estate of the Russian people, and the Kazakh is an ethnos."
    I would say Russian Cossacks are a subethnos of the Russian people. Why Russian Cossacks, because there were also non-Russians by nationality Cossacks.

    In vain you consider the Cossacks an estate, they are an ethnic group in any way. An extinct ethnos can be said to have dissolved remains. Today's descendants call themselves Russians, because such an ethnic group as "Cossack" is not officially registered as a modern nationality. Historically, they cannot be considered a subethnos of Russians, you will, they have an independent origin. The Russian people, excuse me, they have always considered "cattle". The Russian aristocracy, except for Ermak, of the influential atamans, no one wanted to obey, only after their executions the remaining atamans obeyed more simply.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 5 March 2013 08: 00 New
      0
      Atash "You shouldn't consider the Cossacks an estate, they are an ethnos in any way. An extinct ethnos can be said with dissolved remnants. The current descendants call themselves Russians, because such an ethnos as a" Cossack "is not officially registered as a modern nationality. yours cannot be considered, they have an independent origin. "
      An extinct ethnic group has no such concept at all. Maybe in your country there is, I do not argue. And they speak an extinct language ... You can’t call them the same subethnos. Hehe .. So they are Russian ... Hehe I don’t see another definition.
  • Atash
    Atash 5 March 2013 17: 21 New
    -1
    Quote: Nagaibak
    At tipping points in history, unexpected characters emerge as leaders.

    The Time of Troubles and the Civil War were turning points, and during the EP, besides Pugachev himself, there was nothing else. The fate of Russia was not decided. He crawled out of the blue, a dummy figure. And you won’t put Chapaev and Budyonny near, they commanded armies, and here a man called himself king.

    Quote: Nagaibak
    interesting conclusion

    If you find any other people with a contemptuous attitude towards the farmer in the same time period, and that they clearly had nothing to do with the Cossacks and Kazakhs, then my "conclusion" loses its logical basis. And so there are too many coincidences: they lived nearby, names are similar, way of life, clothes, mentality. The Russians, after all, also along the course of the Turks, migrated to the west. In the Russian language, thirty percent of the words of Turkism, and the everyday words that cannot be borrowed, should be of their own: "money", "boot", "fur coat", etc.

    Quote: Marek Rozny
    A military trophy is what you took in battle from the enemy.

    Well, in principle, the trophy was interpreted wider, perhaps. Robbery has always been, the soldiers lived gra... trophies, and directly from the enemy in battle you will not particularly profit. These noblemen in duels could acquire inlaid epheses, and our simple warriors, Cossacks, nomads lived what we call robbery, looting. It was just that the robbery also had a framework. Cossacks, in Warsaw, for example, were distinguished by numerous rapes, including nuns, it seems, and the fact that they rode along the streets with babies on spears. This is a bust according to estimates of any time.

    Quote: Nagaibak
    An extinct ethnic group has no such concept

    Well, maybe I clumsily put it ... Well, what shall we call the American Indians, Mayans, Aztecs, etc.?
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 5 March 2013 17: 54 New
      +1
      Atash "The Troubles and the Civil War were turning points, and during the EP, apart from Pugachev himself, there was nothing else."
      We have that for not a year or so, that neither h (m) was a messiah, and on the outskirts among the Yaitsky Cossacks the Old Believers ripened the conditions for an uprising. That's all. Or do you think that he was an agent of foreign intelligence or Siberian Tartaria sent to undermine our beloved Fatherland?
      Atash "Russians, after all, also along the way of the Turks, migrated to the west. In the Russian language, thirty percent of the words of Turkism, and everyday words that cannot be borrowed, should be of their own:" money "," boot "," fur coat ", etc. "
      It is not necessary to declare the Russians as Turks. Another thing in Russian blood is Turkic blood passed through intermarriage. Remember the "red Polovtsian girls" - in the word about Igor's regiment? And also "Tatars" over the centuries came and were hired to serve in the Moscow princes and assimilated in Russia. So they brought in the Turkisms, plus merchants who were running back and forth. I understand you are flattering and I am afraid to declare the Russians as Turks that this is not so. Although there is enough Turkic blood in the Russian people as well as the Finno-Ugric.
      1. Atash
        Atash 6 March 2013 06: 32 New
        -1
        In this way, Turkisms can be introduced. Then there would be clearly borrowed words, terms of some side of life or craft, for example, military, could be partially explained. But these words could not be borrowed, they can only be native. "Walking Beyond Three Seas" by Afanasy Nikitin was originally written halfway in Turkic, and the author switches to Turkic right in the middle of the phrase. It was customary at that time to often remember God, and the author often does this in the book, and does it in Turkic! "Ollo Akbar"! Can you imagine? Or piquant details that could be described in Russian at that time only in non-literary expressions are described in Turkic. That is, Nikitin speaks Turkic like his own, and writes in it, assuming that the reader will understand it, that's the main thing. And official historians are always silent about this, the publications of the book are fully translated. There is a conspiracy. smile
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 6 March 2013 07: 43 New
          +1
          Atash "and the author often does it in the book, and does it in Turkic!" Ollo akbar "!
          -I laughed, thanked me ... You want to say that this is a Turkic phrase hehe ... I certainly do not know the Kazakh language, but I have not completely survived from the mind. That is, when in Syria, militants knock out a tank and shout this exclamation, therefore, it’s not Arabs, it’s the Turks disguised. It’s interesting, what other Turkic phrases are there? In going over three seas ... hehe ..
          1. Atash
            Atash 6 March 2013 09: 19 New
            0
            For now, I'll post it to you
            "According to the XNUMXth century historian al-Masudi, the founder of Kiev Kiy was ... a native of Khorezm, and his real name was Kuya (that's why the Arabs called Kiev Kuyaba). To this we can add that according to the Russian chronicle the glorious princess Olga is the daughter of the Polovtsian ruler And in the Russian Chronicle of the Radziwill Chronicle Olga's father-in-law, the great Kiev prince Oleg, as clearly follows from the picture placed there, is fighting with his army in the Balkans under the banner on which the Arabic inscription "Din" is inscribed, that is, "faith."
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 6 March 2013 10: 44 New
              +1
              Atash "To this we can add that according to the Russian chronicle the glorious princess Olga is the daughter of the Polovtsian ruler"
              An interesting Scandinavian name for the Polovtsian daughter is Olga-Helga, Oleg-Helg, Igor-Ingvar. The Russians have these names from the Scandinavians. It would be more logical that the Polovtsian princess would be called, say, Bibigul ...
              1. Atash
                Atash 6 March 2013 17: 19 New
                0
                Here you stepped on a mine called "Names". The floor is given to Alexander Alexandrovich.

                "... it is impossible to determine with whom the researcher is dealing - with a Russian, a Polovtsian or a Tatar, - if only a name is given in the old documents. Among the Polovtsians there are khans named ... Gleb Tirievich, Yuri Konchakovich, Roman Kzich, Danilo Kobyakovich. They can only be Christians, and nothing else. ”Can you immediately understand who they are talking about if they are told about them without a middle name?
                Here are some Novgorodians: Gyurgi Eventshkinich, Ratmir Nematovich, Gnezdilo Savin, Yuryata Pineshchinich
                Baptismal and secular names are incredibly intertwined, besides, they are provided with nicknames: "Metropolitan Nikifor of Volyn, and nicknamed Stanilo". "Prince Michael, calling Svyatopolk, has reposed." "I am the Grand Duke Gabriel, named Vsevolod, autocrat Mstislavovich." "And they named the princess at holy baptism Pelagius, and her name is Sbyslav." "My son Ostafiy, who was nicknamed Michael." "Karpusha Larionov, and the nickname Ivashko." "Ivashko, nickname - Agafonko". "Cossack Bogdan, and his name is God knows." end quote

                In fact, she could easily have been Bibigul, and the Russians began to call her Olga, most likely it was about this. This is now, especially in Soviet times, it was very popular to call Russian Kazakhs with Russian names: Tursun will be Tatyana, my mother in Moscow the apartment owner called Shura, they tried to call my father Nikolai.
                She could receive the name Olga at baptism, and in history she could remain Olga. Heh heh
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 6 March 2013 20: 26 New
                  0
                  Atash "To this we can add that according to the Russian chronicle the glorious princess Olga is the daughter of the Polovtsian ruler."
                  1.Eh -Atash, Atash is that you strive for everything, out of the blue, somewhere to step on. When this glorious princess reigned, there was no mention of Polovtsy. They appeared under her grandson, Vladimir the Baptist or the Red Sun, it’s like someone .... Under her in the nearby steppes were some Pechenegs. You can check me out ..
                  2.Atash "Here are some people from Novgorod: Gyurgi Sobyshkinich, Ratmir Nematovich, Gnezdilo Savin, Yuryata Pineschinich"
                  Normal Novgorod names hehe ... You know there, there was a Prussian end in the city and Prussians and their descendants who came from the Baltic countries lived there. When the Germans knocked them out they settled in Nova Gorod. Here their names ended in nothing.
                  3. Regarding Slavic and baptismal names. You are aware that the Russian people are still doing this. For example, a woman comes to church, and her name is, for example, Inna. So here at baptism they will give her another Orthodox name. Or Marina-Latin will give Mary, or something like that. Hehe ... therefore, Russians with ease for convenience rename non-Russian names into spoken names. After all, they are often renamed themselves at baptism, so they do not consider this offensive.
                  4 Regarding Prince Oleg ... But you know that he was a Varangian. Though pretty Russified. He was definitely not a Muslim. And in the Radzivilov Chronicle, to see the Muslim sign ... hehe somehow you know how boldly ... Maybe the monk who wrote or rewrote the chronicle was in addition a Muslim who knows ... hehe ...
                  1. Atash
                    Atash 7 March 2013 08: 50 New
                    0
                    At first you don't like the name. Then you understand that they are wrong with the name, remember, the Polovtsi, it turns out, were not there. There were Russians, but there were no Polovtsians. This is dogma ist. sciences, "the Goths were replaced by the Scythians, Scythians, Sarmatians, those Pechenegs, Khazars, Polovtsians, etc." They came up with it, got confused themselves. Khazars, Polovtsy, Pechenegs - all of them are basically the same, or at the same time. You are right when you say "who knows." How everything really happened, we probably will not know. However, for sure, everything was not like the official. the story presents. They also need to justify their content (historians), their dissertations. They cannot say: "Until now, nothing is clear." It is necessary to give some result, otherwise they might say "what have you been doing all this time?" Or some doctor-professor-academician has been reaping the fruits of his theory all his life, and then try to tell someone, especially he himself, that "according to new intelligence data, we were at war with ourselves." History reveals the flaws of human nature.

                    Again, there were many "Polovtsian beauties" in the wives of the Russian princes, but do you remember any Bibigul or Aigul among them? Helena and Olga alone, go. smile
                    1. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 7 March 2013 09: 16 New
                      0
                      Atash] "This is the dogma of historical science," the Goths were replaced by the Scythians, Scythians, Sarmatians, those Pechenegs, Khazars, Cumans, etc. "They invented, got confused themselves. Khazars, Cumans, Pechenegs - all of this is by and large the same or at the same time. "
                      You wrote again, but you haven’t brought your arguments. So with all your alternative. In fact zilch ...
                      According to Olga, let in your understanding the Pechenegs and Polovets are one and the same. Together with the Khazars of the Jewish faith. For a complete senility, we also include Hungarians. What difference does it make ... You and Olga simply mixed up not only time, but also place. That's all. And the Polovtsy are mentioned later; it seems to me that I and Vladimir were mistaken. Probably under Yaroslav they appeared. In any case, much later than Olga was ... That is, if you transfer this to Kazakhstan, then Khan Ablai did not fight with the Dzungars. And he fought with the Kyrgyz. They soaked him, not Kenesary Kasymov. Ie something like this and your answer sounds. But what's the difference ...
                      1. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 7 March 2013 09: 33 New
                        -1
                        Nagaybak "Probably under Yaroslav they appeared."
                        Here, I was again mistaken. Yaroslav the Wise died in 1054, the first mention of Polovtsy dates back to 1055. Princess Olga died in 969. She could not be a Polovtsian princess ....
                      2. Atash
                        Atash 7 March 2013 09: 52 New
                        +1
                        If the first mention was in 1055, this probably does not mean that the first Polovets was born in 1055. She could easily exist even for 200-300 years before being in the annals. Yes, they could already be mentioned in 0055 in some annals that have not reached our days. All this was one cauldron - Russians, Pechenegs, Tatars, Bulgarians. All the ingredients of this hodgepodge appeared at about the same time. It is logical and simple.
                      3. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 7 March 2013 10: 19 New
                        0
                        Atash "If first mentioned in 1055"
                        Understand, for the Russians, the question of who shy away from their borders was a security issue. In the same way, they noted the appearance of the Mongols in 1223. For me this is understandable as well as the fact that the Polovtsy supplanted the Pechenegs. This does not mean that they killed them. But to inflict a military defeat and then incorporate it easily. So it turns out the boiler as you say. And at the same time before that there were differences between them, some times the Russians distinguish them. And so the same Pechenegs would write - just a bow on the side.
                      4. Atash
                        Atash 7 March 2013 11: 03 New
                        0
                        But could there have been earlier annals with the mention of Polovtsy and not reaching us?
                      5. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 7 March 2013 12: 54 New
                        0
                        Atash
                        "But could there have been earlier chronicles mentioning the Polovtsians and not extant?"
                        We have what we have as they say. This is from pure speculation. Although Polovtsy was noted by other peoples. And at the same time with the Russians.
                      6. Atash
                        Atash 8 March 2013 15: 09 New
                        0
                        So, as historians like to say, cannot be ruled outthat the Polovtsy were long before 1055, respectively, therefore, it is impossible to unequivocally state, Prince. Olga was not a Polovka.
            2. Atash
              Atash 7 March 2013 09: 59 New
              0
              As for the arguments, they are, sorry, at Bushkov. Yes, I am an amateur. Fight with the pros, look at Bushkov's arguments. Bushkov is trying to explain everything, officer. historians do not try, ignore the flagrant facts. In any case, thank you for the discussion, it was very nice. No, I do not say goodbye, we can continue. drinks
            3. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 7 March 2013 10: 11 New
              0
              Atash "Anyway, thank you for the discussion, it was very nice."
              And thank you. And continue, not a question ...
          2. Beck
            Beck 7 March 2013 12: 51 New
            +1
            Quote: Nagaibak
            Together with the Khazars of the Jewish faith.


            You can clarify. In 500 years, a civil war broke out in Iran. The losers side was the Jewish community of Iran. So she fled to the lower reaches of the Volga to Khazaria. The Khazar Turks accepted them. They began to live together. Life is life, mixed marriages have begun. Most Jews married Bekoa and Tarkhanov, but according to Jewish tradition, the son was considered a Jew. He was brought up by the Jewish community and a noble father helped in the promotion. The sons of the Jewish man and the Khazars were half-breeds. And they were not Jews, but they were not pure Khazars. And they could not advance because their fathers did not have titles.

            Gradually, the Jewish nobility with the Khazar titles made a quiet coup. The leaders of the Jews rose in power. They made a kagan a doll and showed it to the people only a few times a year. The most famous of the Jewish leaders of the Kaganate is a certain Jew Obadiah.

            When a joint blow, Prince Oleg from the north, and the Seljuk Turks from the southeast, crushed the kagant. Part of the Khazars of Jewish origin fled to Crimea, where they became Crimeans with the Jewish faith and Turkic language.

            At the end of the 1300s, Prince Vitovt, a strengthened Lithuania, resettled the Krymchaks to Lithuania to serve in the light cavalry. The resettled received the name Karaites, spoke the Turkic dialect, professed Judaism. The most prominent representatives of the Karaites are Caesar Kunikov, Hero of the Owls. Union, the commander of the airborne detachment that captured and held the bridgehead on the "Malaya Zemlya". The living Ralph Bakshi is an American director, screenwriter and cartoonist who is considered the founder of adult animation. Selvinsky, Soviet writer, poet, playwright. And also, I can't remember the last name, a Karaite KGB officer, for about 20 years he was in illegal work in Italy and France in the post-war years, then he taught at the KGB school .. And now a certain number of Karaites live in Lithuania.
          3. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 7 March 2013 17: 46 New
            0
            Beck "When a joint blow, Prince Oleg from the north"
            Dear Beck .... You probably meant Prince Svyatoslav, because it was he who defeated the Khazar Caliphate.
            Beck "Gradually, the Jewish nobility with Khazar titles made a quiet coup. The leaders of the Jews rose to power."
            And the Turks got from them ... hehe ... for kindness.
          4. Cossack Ermak
            Cossack Ermak 26 June 2014 14: 35 New
            0
            So now all power belongs to a handful of Jews in Ukraine and in Russia. Not to mention America and Europe.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 09: 47 New
    0
    Atash, I want to fix it.
    Nikitin has not "half" in Turkic, but a much smaller part. Although in some places he writes in Türkic, this is a fact. Well, "Allah Akbar" is not Turkism at all, although it is clear that Nikitin took over this phrase from the Turks.
    1. Atash
      Atash 6 March 2013 10: 57 New
      -1
      Certainly not Turkism, in the Turkic language there can be no Turkism smile
      Marek, please answer the question about Genghiside on the Russian throne: do you mean Simeon Bekbolatovich?
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 11: 07 New
        0
        Yes, of himself.
  • Atash
    Atash 5 March 2013 17: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Nagaibak
    It’s not for you to judge; you have no idea about this.

    Well, exactly according to Bushkov! This is exactly what historians say according to Bushkov when they begin to torture their scientific methods. Physicists can calmly tell how and what, although it can be difficult for a person to understand from the outside. And historians immediately in a pose, they have a sacrament there. I did not trust Bushkov about this, I thought maybe exaggerating on emotions. Now I’m convinced: one to one, without busting.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 5 March 2013 18: 45 New
      0
      Atash "Well, exactly according to Bushkov!"
      Do not believe it - I did not read !!!
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 5 March 2013 21: 34 New
        0
        Quote: Nagaibak
        Do not believe it - I did not read !!!

        Now we believe you are just uneducated
        1. Atash
          Atash 6 March 2013 06: 08 New
          0
          Comrade has a classical education.
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 6 March 2013 07: 37 New
            0
            Atash
            "Comrade has a classical education."
            Is that bad in your opinion? In your banter Bushkov is much better?
            1. Atash
              Atash 6 March 2013 09: 32 New
              0
              I didn’t want to talk about poor education, I don’t have a very high opinion of my own. Just classic.
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 6 March 2013 10: 49 New
                +1
                Atash "Just classic."
                My friend is nothing better than the classics. We were at least taught to think. I look at the younger generation. They have advanced education, using different methods. So they do not know elementary things. I don’t know how you were classically educated. I remember my teachers warmly. And about the university in general I am silent. Now this is education for money.
                1. Atash
                  Atash 6 March 2013 17: 29 New
                  -1
                  In general, I agree. The current "education" is nowhere, as a rule, with the exception of some expensive universities. probably. But apart from history. There is no need to talk about the history of the Soviet period at all. The rest ... There was a satirical rhyme, do not remember, about the vulgar teaching of literature at school: "Onegit this, that, that, that. Bazarov is a complex nature, Gerasim drowned Mu-Mu, Here is all the literature for you." The story was something like that, and, perhaps, more trenchant, because it is full of myths. Although now, I guess. even worse.
        2. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 6 March 2013 07: 33 New
          0
          Setrac "Now let's believe you are just uneducated"
          They survived ... Bushkova’s blizzard, the criterion for the formation of hehe .. then everything is clear with you ... It’s good that I’ve not been clogged with such an uneducated head by mura hehe ...
          1. Atash
            Atash 6 March 2013 09: 31 New
            0
            Bushkov has more than 200 books in bibliographies, he is a man of encyclopedic knowledge, who has swallowed "archival dust". Education at the level of Marek, by the way, no less. God grant everyone. The work is perfect, you can say titanic, the word "banter" somehow does not stick to it, in my opinion.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 09: 51 New
              +1
              Thank you, of course, but I'm far from thinking that I know a lot) And I have gaps above the roof in the subject. Every day brings some mini-discoveries) I changed my opinion on various historical processes several times laughing So remember me in vain in this vein) As soon as I consider myself smarter than everyone, I will die as a person.
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 6 March 2013 11: 00 New
                0
                Marek Rozny "Thank you, of course, but I am far from thinking that I know a lot)"
                Plus for modesty. In the right vein, think - this is me about self-esteem.
              2. Atash
                Atash 6 March 2013 11: 00 New
                0
                Himself to blame, no one pulled out to brag. Now we will flatter smile
                You're welcome, along the way.
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 11: 11 New
                  0
                  Gyyy, I repent, the Kazakh indestructible habit of boasting out of the blue)))
                  * sprinkled ashes on his head.

                  Z.Y. Kazakh ashes - the best ashes in the world !!! laughing
            2. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 6 March 2013 10: 52 New
              0
              Atash "Bushkov has more than 200 books in bibliographies"
              Maybe he shouldn't have written at all? To write that Batu and Alexander Nevsky are one and the same - this is the banter. His works are "scientific" - at the level of fiction.
              1. Atash
                Atash 6 March 2013 17: 35 New
                +1
                His method is to choose a version, even a wild one, and then either refute or prove. In the course, in any case, a lot of interesting things will be revealed. In "Genghis Khan. Unknown Asia" he already recognizes the existence of Batu and Genghis Khan, as Baty and Genghis Khan proper. The original, of course, but the official story is too dogmatic, if not simply untrue.
  • Alibekulu
    Alibekulu 5 March 2013 19: 29 New
    +3
    Hello everyone, here is an article quite famous about Ermak ... But maybe someone has not read

    Who are you, Ermak Alenin?
    Sofronov V.
    Scientists still have not come to a consensus on the issue of Yermak’s personality. Most often, he is called a native of the estates of the industrialists the Stroganovs, who then went "to field" on the Volga and Don and became a Cossack.
    Another opinion: Ermak - of noble origin, Turkic blood ...

    The word "Cossack" or, as they wrote in the old days, "Kozak" is of Turkic origin. It is based on the root "Kaza", which has a double meaning:
    1. misfortune, death, damage, loss, deprivation of something;
    2. misfortune, calamity, misfortune, misfortune, natural disaster.
    The Cossacks among the Turkic peoples called people who lagged behind the Horde, isolated, leading their own economy separately. But gradually, so began to call and dangerous people, hunted robbery, robbed fellow tribesmen. The fact that the concept of "Cossacks" originated from the Turkic peoples can be confirmed by the sources.
    In 1538, the Moscow authorities noted that "many Cossacks walk on the field: Kazan, Azov, Crimean and other Cossack bachelors, and the Ukrainian Cossacks walk with them, mixed with them." Notice, "mingled with them go." Consequently, the nationality for the Cossacks did not play a big role, the main thing is lifestyle.
    Ivan the Terrible decided to draw the steppe liberty to his side. In 1571, he sent messengers to the Don atamans, invited them to military service, and recognized the Cossacks as a military and political force.

    The word "Cossack" or, as they wrote in the old days, "Kozak" is of Turkic origin. It is based on the root "Kaza", which has a double meaning:
    1. misfortune, death, damage, loss, deprivation of something;
    2. misfortune, calamity, misfortune, misfortune, natural disaster.
    The Cossacks among the Turkic peoples called people who lagged behind the Horde, isolated, leading their own economy separately. But gradually, so began to call and dangerous people, hunted robbery, robbed fellow tribesmen. The fact that the concept of "Cossacks" originated from the Turkic peoples can be confirmed by the sources.
    In 1538, the Moscow authorities noted that "many Cossacks walk on the field: Kazan, Azov, Crimean and other Cossack bachelors, and the Ukrainian Cossacks walk with them, mixed with them." Notice, "mingled with them go." Consequently, the nationality for the Cossacks did not play a big role, the main thing is lifestyle.
    1. Alibekulu
      Alibekulu 5 March 2013 19: 30 New
      +5
      Cossacks among the Turkic peoples were called people who lagged behind the Horde, isolated, leading their economy separately. But gradually they began to call so dangerous people who hunted robbery, robbed fellow tribesmen. The fact that the concept of “Cossacks” originated among the Turkic peoples can be confirmed by sources.
    2. Atash
      Atash 6 March 2013 06: 53 New
      +2
      For example, there is such an assumption. Evolution of the word: Khazar - Kozar - Cossack, Cossack. It is also logical. "Kozar" is found in the annals. Where did the famous Khazars go? And here they are, the Cossacks! There is a general description of clothing, black klobuk hats.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 09: 54 New
        +3
        Atash, do you know that the Ural Cossacks call themselves "Kazara"? Considering that they live exactly on the territory of Khazaria, then you can think about it)))
        And if you still think about the origin of the Khazar people in Afghanistan, who consider themselves the descendants of the Genghis Khan wars (although rather they are the descendants of the Babur wars) ....
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 6 March 2013 11: 07 New
          +1
          Marek Rozny "Do the Ural Cossacks call themselves" Kazara "?
          In my homeland, the village of Yekaterininskaya is three kilometers away. So we called them "barracks". It seemed to me just like a teaser. I honestly still have not thought about Kazara-Khazar. Anything is possible, in any case, this may not apply to all Ural Cossacks. And to those who have, let's say, originally Turkic roots.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 11: 20 New
            +2
            How much I did not try to understand this question, until I found a clear answer where this word came from. The fact that the name is more ironic. Ethnographic materials show that the Urals were not at all offended by this nickname and themselves willingly used it. Neighbors (even Cossacks from other Cossack troops) also put a good-naturedly teasing meaning into this word, calling them the Urals.
            I cannot find a more or less suitable explanation of this "ethnonym" neither in Russian nor in Turkic. All the options that come to mind are clearly far-fetched. For example, "kosar" - "that which was added to something."
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 6 March 2013 15: 01 New
              +1
              Marek Rozny "Neighbors (even Cossacks from other Cossack troops) also put a good-naturedly teasing meaning into this word, calling the Urals people that way."
              We teased Orenburg. Although I know that they were relocated from the 1st OKV department in the development of the Novolinayny district. But in the first section, they probably came in contact with the Urals.
          2. Atash
            Atash 6 March 2013 17: 39 New
            0
            You probably guess where I got this assumption - the Khazar-Khazar?
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 7 March 2013 09: 42 New
              0
              Atash "You can probably guess where I got this assumption - the Khazara-Khazar?"
              I do not know. This is just an assumption. From the Khazars remained mountain Jews in Dagestan, and Karaites in the Crimea. I can assume that the Turkic component of the Khazar state could turn out to be the basis from which the Cossacks arose. Of course, these Turks were not of the Jewish faith. Most likely the Gentiles. Again, this is an assumption.
              1. Atash
                Atash 7 March 2013 10: 02 New
                +1
                The Türks professed Tengrianism before Christianity and Islam. Tengri is the religion of monotheism, with time it may have received pagan distortions.
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 7 March 2013 12: 57 New
                  0
                  Atash
                  "The Turks professed Tengrianism before Christianity and Islam. Tengri is a religion of monotheism, which in the course of time may have received pagan distortions."
                  I am in the know. And yet she is more inclined towards paganism. In the sense of the great religions in this regard can not be compared.
                  1. Atash
                    Atash 7 March 2013 16: 59 New
                    +2
                    "The symbol of Tengri on the banners of Attila was a cross (however, it is useful to recall that the word" gonfalon "itself comes from the Turkic" gonfal "-" banner "," banner "... Tengri is a heavenly spirit-master, god-father. In Tengrian canons included baptism with water (with a full three-fold immersion). The greatest holiday was considered the Epiphany ... By some strange coincidence, the holiday falls on December 25 - like Catholic Christmas ... the Tengrians were supposed to bring home a Christmas tree on this day. Tengrian holiday - the arrival of spring, March 25. On this day, cakes were baked, next to which they were supposed to lay painted eggs. The Yenisei rock paintings preserved the drawings of the altar with a bowl standing on it, very similar to the chalice used in Christianity. There are also images of priests in long robes with wands in their hands.
                    1. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 7 March 2013 17: 42 New
                      0
                      Atash "falls on December 25 - just like Catholic Christmas. ... the Tengrians were supposed to bring home a Christmas tree on this day. The second most important Tengrian holiday is the arrival of spring, March 25. On this day, Easter cakes were baked, next to which they were supposed to lay painted eggs The Yenisei rock carvings have preserved the drawings of the altar with a bowl standing on it, very similar to the chalice used in Christianity. There are also depictions of priests in long robes with rods in their hands. "
                      Hmm ... it was easier for the Türks to adopt Christianity. I would have to change a little. Joke. Although maybe it somehow resonates with Nestorianism?
                      1. Atash
                        Atash 8 March 2013 15: 43 New
                        0
                        I also think that since it was greatly distorted when importing Christianity into Europe, these distortions are most likely of Tengrian origin. In fact, in my opinion there is no reason to believe that Isa (Jesus) (peace be upon him) was born on December 25, it seems that they just took the usual date.
                    2. Beck
                      Beck 8 March 2013 16: 06 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Atash
                      "The symbol of Tengri on the banners of Attila was a cross


                      I’ll clarify a few. In the ancient religions of the Tibetan Plateau, Xinjiang, the steppes of Mongolia and Manchuria, the mountains of Altai, the main deity was the sun god. He was painted as a proper circle with diverging rays. Then they began to draw in a stylized way - a point and diverging rays, then a point and four rays - a cross. In this form, the image of the sun reached India, Persia and beyond. The Buddhists, and through them and the Lamaists, the image of the sun - the cross acquired a mystical and sacred character and the cross itself has changed. Its ends became bent - the result was a swastika. And its meaning did not imply viciousness. This uneducated Hitler made the swastika a symbol of evil.

                      So, the cross on the banners of Attila meant the Sun, and Tengri - Sky should have meant blue banners. Like your flag, the flag of pride. And on my flag, only administrators haven’t been returning it for a week now, but Amerovsky’s have been hung up.
    3. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 6 March 2013 08: 06 New
      +1
      Alibekulu "In 1538, the Moscow authorities noted that" many Cossacks walk on the field: Kazan, Azov, Crimean and other minions, Cossacks, and from our Ukrainians, the Cossacks, mingling with them, go. "Note," They mingle with them. " Consequently, nationality did not play a big role for the Cossacks, the main thing was the way of life. "
      I read it like "the Armenians from the Crimea went to the Cossacks" This, as I remember, referred to the 15-16 centuries.
      Alibekulu "Cossacks among the Turkic peoples were called people who lagged behind the Horde, isolated, leading their economy separately. But gradually they began to call dangerous people who hunted robbery and robbed their fellow tribesmen. The fact that the concept of" Cossacks "originated among the Turkic peoples may be confirmed by sources "
      I don’t think anyone is arguing with this.
      Another question is that over time, due to the fugitives, all sorts of adherents, released from Turkish captivity, the Slavs began to prevail in the Cossacks. That is, the Russian language probably supplanted the Turkic language at the end of the 16th century, and maybe even earlier. This is not the point. Those Cossacks who were descended from the Turks remember that and are called clan. And they include the phrase "The Cossack is led from the Cossack." If there was no influx of Slavs into the Cossacks, they would still speak Turkic. I think many Turks will agree with me. Since the Turks can switch to another language only if they are in the minority. And that will take a long time.
      In the 19th century, many were recorded from Russian peasants and retired soldiers and settled in the villages, so-called ascribed. It’s customary to hang all dogs with those who believe that Cossacks are a separate nationality.
  • Alibekulu
    Alibekulu 5 March 2013 19: 42 New
    +4
    The word "ermak" is undoubtedly of Turkic origin. We rummage in the Tatar-Russian dictionary: Erma - a breakthrough; ermak - ditch washed away by water; ermaklau - plow; ertu - tear, tear. It seems that the millstone for a manual mill got its name from the last word.

    In the language of the investigator, the surname of our hero, Alenin, also raises very big doubts. The fact that she is in no way connected with the "deer" is clear and without explanation. In the Russian language previously there were no words beginning with the letter "a". Watermelon, arba, cherry plum, lasso - all of them are of Turkic origin. So Alenin is a surname, clearly borrowed from the same neighbors and probably altered in the Russian manner for a more convenient pronunciation. Let's look again at the dictionary of the Tatar language: scarlet - scarlet, pink; ala - piebald; alakola - spotted; alama — a bad person; alapai - unkempt person; alga - forward. As you can see, there are many options. And finally, Allah or Allah is God, the Deity. The names are also similar: Ali, Alei, Alim. One of the chronicles describes the appearance of Ermak: "flat face" and "black hair", and, you see, a Russian person is characterized by an elongated face and light brown hair. A strange picture turns out - Ermak is of Turkic origin, and Alenin is an offshoot from the same root!

    Why did Ermak go to Siberia?
    And one more interesting point: the governor Prince Semyon Bolkhovsky was sent to Siberia to help the Cossacks, and two warlords, Khan Kireev and Ivan Glukhov, were sent along with the warriors. All three are no match for some rootless Cossack chieftain! But nowhere in the annals and there is no talk about how to manage a squad was one of them. And in Russia it has long been higher in military rank, whose origin is more noble. So would Prince Bolkhovsky become subject to the chieftain Yermak ?!

    Something is wrong here! The conclusion suggests itself: the origin of Yermak Alenin is quite high, and he could well have come from the princes of the Siberian land, who were then destroyed by the Khan Kuchum, who came from Bukhara. Then it becomes clear why Yermak on this earth behaved like a master, and not like an ordinary conqueror of that time. And he settled personal scores with Khan Kuchum, and not with someone else. Kuchum was his number one enemy. The campaign of Yermak was aimed at returning the Siberian throne to someone from the relatives of his dynasty and expelling the Bukhara conqueror from Siberia.

    Only this can explain the fact that the local population did not rise to fight against the Russian squads - they were led by one of the relatives of the Siberian princes, even if he accepted the Orthodox faith, but his own blood. And Kuchum was a stranger to them; as has been noted more than once, his name is translated from the Tatar means “newcomer”, “immigrant”, “steppe”.

    Whom God does not have mercy ... Probably, people who violated his commandments, shed the blood of their rightful rulers. This is what the deposed Siberian ruler admitted to this. Note that the chronicles never report on the open attack of Khan Kuchum on Yermak and his warriors in Isker. Of course, this can be explained by fear or small military forces. But if the former Siberian khan was afraid of the Cossacks, then he would have long left this land, and meanwhile, the army of Ermak was melting before our eyes. No, other laws acted here, and not animal fear, which is attributed to the elderly Khan by many researchers. And if he, Kuchum, felt fear, then it was fear of the legitimate ruler of the Siberian Khanate.

    It seems that Kuchum chose the night attack, if you accept the Russian version of the last battle, not only for surprise (the Cossacks could slip away unnoticed by the attackers under the cover of night), but rather so that the enemy could not know who attacked them. Kuchum was afraid to meet face to face with Yermak. And so only the guilty one does!

    The result is known: the Sheibanite dynasty is overthrown along with the ruler Kuchum and his children and reigns legal Siberian dynasty of taibugins.
    1. Alibekulu
      Alibekulu 5 March 2013 19: 49 New
      +3
      By the way, speaking of the grave of Yermak, it should be mentioned that, according to legend, they buried him in the Baishevsky cemetery "under curly pine" not far from the mausoleum of St. Khakim-Ata, a sheikh preacher who brought Islam to Siberian land. It is unlikely that Muslims - and Kuchum insistently introduced Islam in his khanate as the state religion - would allow the burial of a Gentile next to the glorified saint.
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 6 March 2013 08: 44 New
        -1
        [quote = Alibekulu]
        "By the way, speaking of Yermak's grave, it should be mentioned that, according to legend, he was buried at the Baishevsky cemetery" under a curly pine tree "not far from the mausoleum of the Monk Khakim-Ata, a sheikh-preacher who brought Islam to Siberia." I read that he was buried next to a Muslim cemetery. As for the mausoleums, he lived in Tobolsk, visited the villages - I did not see the mausoleums. But there are fences on the graves, like the Russians, in the north, in general, with benches and tables. And when parental day, Russians and Tatars go together to the cemeteries to commemorate the dead, so that the interpenetration of cultures takes place before our very eyes.
    2. Atash
      Atash 6 March 2013 07: 33 New
      +2
      Along the way, Ivan Ring was also not from simple, from disgraced boyars. It’s also logical, I wouldn’t go to a tramp to some henchmen.
    3. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 6 March 2013 08: 30 New
      0
      Alibekulu "In the language of the investigator, the surname of our hero, Alenin, raises very big doubts. The fact that she is in no way connected with the" deer "is clear and without explanation."
      Why not Olenin? Hehe ... I had a friend from Western Ukraine, so she insisted that her name was Alesya, not Olesya. Although her full name was Alexandra. That is, among the people that no one is steaming on "O" or "A". Nobody doubts the Turkic origin of the word Ermak.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 09: 59 New
        +3
        I have two friends in Astana, Alesi. One Belarusian, another Ukrainian. So I agree that Alenin could have come from Olenin. And we can and from any other Slavic name or word.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 6 March 2013 11: 10 New
          +1
          Marek Rozny "I have two acquaintances in Astana, Alesya. One is Belarusian, the other is Ukrainian. So I agree that Alenin could come from Olenin. And we can and from any other Slavic name or word."
          I agree that the Russian language is great and powerful ... you can only guess about the rest ...
  • Alibekulu
    Alibekulu 5 March 2013 19: 50 New
    +4
    As a result, Khan Kuchum turned out to be a Tatar (although he never was), and Yermak, with his Turkic, nickname, nicknamed, was credited to the epic heroes of the Russian land.
    1. Beck
      Beck 5 March 2013 20: 05 New
      +1
      Quote: Alibekulu
      Cossacks among the Turkic peoples were called people who lagged behind the Horde, isolated, leading their economy separately. But gradually they began to call so dangerous people who hunted robbery, robbed fellow tribesmen.


      I do not agree. If not laziness, read my disagreement in my highest comment.

      Quote: Alibekulu
      The word "ermak" is undoubtedly of Turkic origin. We rummage in the Tatar-Russian dictionary: Erma - a breakthrough; ermak - ditch washed away by water; ermaklau - plow; ertu - tear, tear. It seems that the millstone for a manual mill got its name from the last word.


      I agree that Ermak is of Turkic blood. The program was recently shown on the Russian historical TV channel "365". The presenters directly declare that Ermak is a Turk of noble bloods from a noble family. And he lived just in the khanate of Kuchum. There were some malfunctions, then revenge and a fatal outcome, By the way, coming from the khan's court, or something else, but the Turk Ermak fled and became a Cossack. Cossacked until fate brought Stroganov together. And with his money, he returned to Tyumen and took revenge.

      Ermek from Kazakh translates as fun. This name was given to the youngest son. Which was fun for older parents.
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 6 March 2013 09: 05 New
      0
      Alibekulu
      "As a result, Khan Kuchum turned out to be a Tatar (although he never was), and Ermak, with his Turkic, in fact, nickname-nickname, was enrolled in the epic heroes of the Russian land."
      Personally, I do not exclude the possibility that Turkic blood flowed in Yermak. By his name, his name was Yermak Timofeev or Yermolay Timofeevich Tokmok. In any case, the Turkic trace is traceable. What does Tokmok mean? It’s the same in any Turkic word. In appearance, you forgot to mention the beard. Tatars and Kazakhs have a poor beard. Say, not so much as to be noted in the description of a person. But Yermak’s beard is mentioned. It seems to me that his mother was possibly related to the Turks. Maybe Yermak’s father brought her from a campaign. The fact that he was baptized does not cause me as much doubt. I think hardly anyone will call me a Cossack chieftain Muslim by faith. Local Tatars did not show active resistance because he came as a liberator from Kuchum. And the enemy of my enemy ... Then many Cossacks spoke Turkic, at least they could communicate and this also did not repel the local Tatars.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 10: 09 New
        +3
        Tokmok - mallet, mallet, wooden hammer in Turkic. And also this is the self-name of one of the Naiman subgenus. Well, there are such settlements - in Kyrgyzstan, in the Tatar part of Crimea, and ... Zaporizhia laughing

        Regarding the beard - almost all Kazakhs have a beard. Only it is narrow, not wide like that of Tajiks or Russians. Some (for example) have a beard like that of English sailors or Chechens laughing For some, like Bondarchuk’s. Rarely, but there are wide beards.
        The beardless old man caused (hidden) ridicule among the Kazakhs. It was unusual and not "in terms of status."
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 6 March 2013 11: 17 New
          +1
          Marek Rozny "Tokmak - mallet, mallet, wooden hammer in Turkic"
          Hmm ... a mallet just like that a person will not be called ...
          Marek Rozny "As for the beard, almost all Kazakhs have a beard. Only it is narrow, not wide like that of Tajiks or Russians."
          I know this ... heh heh ... Despite the presence of Turkic blood, my beard is growing wide, ... heh hell is probably like Yermak. I struggle with it by regular shaving. Otherwise, the wife will drive out of the house.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 11: 41 New
            +3
            As a child, he was often in the Kyrgyz Tokmak, where relatives lived. And above my bed was a map of the USSR. And I remember my amazement when I found the city of Tokmak in Ukraine. True, then I, essno, did not even suspect that the Turks once lived in Ukraine) In the Soviet school, I did not associate any "Polovtsy" with the Turks at all. For me, they were fascists on horseback who attacked Russia, drove people into barns and burned them there. And then the heroes came and killed all the invaders))))
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 6 March 2013 12: 26 New
              +1
              Marek Rozny "True, then I, essno, did not even suspect that the Turks once lived in Ukraine) In the Soviet school, I did not associate any" Polovtsy "with the Turks at all. For me, they were fascists on horseback who attacked Russia , drove people into sheds and burned them there. And then the heroes came and killed all the invaders)))) "
              He laughed, thank you!
      2. Beck
        Beck 6 March 2013 10: 11 New
        +3
        Quote: Nagaibak
        "As a result, Khan Kuchum turned out to be a Tatar


        And such a delusion of many. Misconception and surprise. By Tatar they mean Kazan. And they don’t understand where the Tatars came from in other places in Siberia. The tsarist colonial administration recorded many slanting and cheeky tribes, in due time, in the Tatars.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 6 March 2013 11: 22 New
          +1
          Bek "And such a delusion of many. Delusion and surprise. Kazan is meant by Tatar. And they do not understand where Tatars and other places in Siberia come from. The Tsar's colonial administration recorded many slanting and high-cheeked tribes, at one time, in Tatars."
          I quoted the phrase about Kuchum Tatar.
          In the Middle Ages, who is from the east is Tatar. Who is from the West German. Hence the aglitsky, sveysky, cesar and other Germans. The Nogai Tatars, until the beginning of the 20th century, Azerbaijanis were called the Transcaucasian Tatars. In general, they did not bathe then.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 11: 30 New
            +1
            In addition to the fact that the Russian Kazakhs called "Kirghiz", "Kirghiz-Kaisak", "Cossack / Cossack Horde" and "Horde Cossacks", occasionally "Kyrgyz Tatars" were also used.
        2. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 6 March 2013 12: 38 New
          +1
          Bek "The Tsar's colonial administration recorded many slanting and high-cheeked tribes, in due time, in the Tatars."
          But basically they recorded in the Tatars Türkic speaking. After all, they did not enter the Mongols and Buryats, although they are slanting and cheekbones.
          1. Beck
            Beck 6 March 2013 13: 49 New
            +1
            Quote: Nagaibak
            But basically they recorded in the Tatars Türkic-speaking


            Well, probably not from the floundering bay. They were guided by the language, but not versed in dialects and dialects.
    3. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 10: 00 New
      +1
      Kuchum - from Kazakh Genghisides. He is not a Tatar. In addition, the so-called Siberian Tatars consist of exactly the same clans as the Kazakhs of the Middle Zhuz (Argyns, Naimans, Kereis, Kipshaks, Jalayirs).
  • Alibekulu
    Alibekulu 5 March 2013 20: 58 New
    +3
    Becku: read my topmost comment. Article by Sofronov V. "Who are you, Ermak Alenin?" Accordingly, all the questions are for him .. And about Ermek, so is my cousin's name ... stop
    1. Beck
      Beck 6 March 2013 09: 32 New
      +2
      Quote: Alibekulu
      Becku: read my topmost comment. Article by Sofronov V. "Who are you, Ermak Alenin?"


      Actually, I said to read about the formation of the Cossacks as such. And what does Safronov have to do with it.
  • Atash
    Atash 6 March 2013 06: 35 New
    +2
    Quote: Nagaibak
    You think he was an agent of foreign intelligence

    Perhaps this was an operation by the French, which did not suit the strengthening of Russia in the Crimea.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 6 March 2013 08: 32 New
      +1
      Atash "Perhaps it was an operation of the French, who were not satisfied with the strengthening of Russia in the Crimea."
      You can applaud the French intelligence, right CIA !!!
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 10: 11 New
      +1
      French intelligence did not go deep into Russia. But the British are another matter.
      but in general, the theory that peasant uprisings were inspired by foreign intelligence seems to me very tense and unproven.
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 6 March 2013 11: 35 New
        +1
        Marek Rozny "French intelligence did not penetrate deeply into Russia. But the British are another matter.
        but in general, the theory that the peasant uprisings were inspired by foreign intelligence seems to me to be very tense and unsubstantiated. "
        I agree, later penetrated of course. But then hardly.
  • Atash
    Atash 6 March 2013 09: 38 New
    +1
    Quote: Nagaibak
    Interestingly, what other Turkic phrases are there?

    Here you go

    "As in the time of Ivan the Terrible - but on one of the coins of that time, an Arabic inscription flaunts next to the Russian inscription, Ivan Vasilievich is again called" in Basurman ":" Iban "."

    Quote: Nagaibak
    Interestingly, what other Turkic phrases are there?

    Yet

    "What is really interesting, from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania there are a lot of documents written in the Old Belarusian (actually, Old Russian) language, but ... in Arabic letters. There are similar texts written by Russians in Russia ..."

    Quote: Nagaibak
    Interestingly, what other Turkic phrases are there?

    Found.

    "And again, when it comes to the divine, the Tver is quite at ease uses two languages:" Yes, you prayed to Christ the Almighty, who created heaven and earth, and you did not call anyone else by name, god ollo, god kerim, god ragim, god hodo, the God take it, god is the king of glory, ollo boiled, ollo ragimelno sensen ollo ty. "

    In Turkic, Arabic, Farsi there are many common or similar words.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 10: 16 New
      +4
      Quote: Atash
      In Turkic, Arabic, Farsi there are many common or similar words.

      we have no similar words. but there is a lot of borrowing. the Kazakhs inherited some of the Iranisms from the Sakas (aspan, kudai, nauryz), then a lot of words from Persian and Arabic appeared along with Islam in the 8-10th centuries (the so-called "Muslim Renaissance" era). The Persians have a lot of Turkisms after numerous invasions of Turkic armies and the dominance of Turkic states in the region. The Arabs have fewer Turkisms, but there are - somewhere from the 10-13th centuries, partly from trade relations, part from the Mamluks, partly because of the invasions of the "Mongolian" Horde.
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 6 March 2013 11: 33 New
        -2
        Marek Rozny "We have no similar words. But there are a lot of borrowings. From Kazakhs"
        And here is the Russian Iranianism: a dog-Slavic dog; ax-glory. ax; the glory horse seems. a horse or vice versa a horse-horse, I don’t remember exactly.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 11: 46 New
          +2
          the dog is Iranism (in my opinion, Ispak / Ishpak), an ax is an Indo-European word, common to both Slavs and Iranians.
          and the horse is Turkism (alasha-at), the horse is the Slavic word.

          by the way, about the ax. in the Türkic language the verb "chabu / shabu" - to chop, looks painfully related. The word "saber" is from this root. It is possible that there is an ancient connection between the Indo-European and Turkic roots. As well as the connection between the English top (meaning top, hill), Indian "topi" (hill) and Turkic "tyube" (hill).
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 6 March 2013 12: 36 New
            -1
            Marek Rozny "Turkism (alasha-at)"
            At - horse I knew that. But alasha-at - which is logical !!!
            And how is Alash’s family translated? I know the name of the legendary khan.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 6 March 2013 13: 51 New
              +1
              As for the Alash Khan (Alash Khan), there are several versions. The fact is that he lived at least in the 10th century (I say this because there is a mausoleum in the Karaganda region dating from the 10th century), and there are several legends about it.
              The general meaning is that he was of Khan's origin, on his face he was in bright spots, so he was given such a nickname (Ala - variegated, alacha / alasha - "the one who is colorful"). In childhood, for some reason, he was distant from his khan's family, somewhere he Cossacked in the steppe, but then the people called him and declared him their khan. In some versions it is mentioned that the name was given because they raised it on a special Kazakh carpet, which is also called "alasha" - a two-color rough carpet, although it is usually customary to raise the khans during the inauguration on a white carpet.
              In detail, his biography is different, but in general, all the legends about him clearly say that at the same time, the Kazakhs had an unprecedented abundance, and he justly rules. Very much he struck the memory of the Kazakhs, and they consider themselves his descendants.

              Kazakh families have their own battle cries, with which they go on the attack. For my clan this is the cry "Akzhol" (in honor of the founder of the clan). But there are also common Kazakh cries - this is "Aruakh!" (aruach is the spirit of an ancestor who helps a living descendant) and "Alash!" in honor of the legendary king.

              In the Kazakh language, the name "Alasha" gradually changed to "Alash". And the word "Alash" is our second ethnonym along with the word "Cossack". Kazakhs say: "We are the descendants of Alash, we are the people of" Alash ". The Kazakhs perceive the concept of" Alash-Orda "as the name of their own state, regardless of dynasties and political system. And the Kazakh Khanate of the times of Janibek and Kerey - Alash-Orda, and when we were part of the Russian Empire - it was Alash-Orda, and the Kazakh SSR is also Alash-Orda)

              At the beginning of the 20th century there was still such a party of Alash-Horde, in which the whole color of our intelligentsia at that time consisted. They stood for the joint coexistence of Kazakhstan and Russia, but were against both the white monarchists and the Bolsheviks. But in the end, as we know, the Communists won. By 1937, Alash-Ordinians were all shot as a bourgeois and anti-Soviet element.

              Alasha - variegated, piebald, spotted. So it can be said about the color of the horse. "Alasha at" is a piebald horse. Among some Volga Finno-Ugric peoples this word, taken from the Türks, began to mean simply "horse" or "gelding". Apparently as a result of the infusion of the Volga Ugric peoples into the Russian ethnos, this word got into the Russian language with this meaning.
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 6 March 2013 14: 55 New
                +2
                Marek rozny
                Thanks for the complete answer. I'll know.
          2. Alibekulu
            Alibekulu 7 March 2013 01: 50 New
            0
            Olzhas Suleimenov: Dog - from Turkic, ic-tank (is-tank) - “dog-tracker”, where ic-smell or iz-track, tank - from bahu
            bahu
            I.
            1. Ch.
            1) graze (cattle)
            жылқы бғғ → graze horses
            қой бғғ → graze the sheep
            mal bahu → graze cattle
            2) to educate (children); care; contain
            ата-анасын бғғ → contain parents
            aura baғu → take care of the sick
            bala bahu → raise children
            3) look after; watch
            endі бққсам → I'm watching
            бір нәрсенің ақырын бғғу → wait, what will end
            auzyn bahu → speak with caution
            4) (in the role of an auxiliary verb, reports tension to action)
            aytyp bahu → tell him everything
            shydap bahu → endure to the last opportunity
            2. etc.
            1) grazing (livestock)
            Mal Baumen Shyldanu → Livestock
            2) parenting rules
            3) eyeing; observation
            II. ch. rarely watch
            көзіңе бғғу → look with all eyes
            kөkke bahu → pray to heaven (lit. look into the sky)
            The dog has been given something that has not been given to man: she sees smells, follows invisible tracks and leads the man along. The qualities that nature endowed her made the dog a great creature. Hunters worshiped the nurse, like farmers, to the sun and its terrestrial representatives - baboons, dung beetle, and horned animals.
          3. Alibekulu
            Alibekulu 7 March 2013 02: 07 New
            +2
            O. Sulemenova ..ic-tank - “dog tracker”, where ic - smell (in Kazakh іс), or із - the trace ... the second syllable - tank - in kaz.yaz - analog bahu
            I.
            1. Ch.
            1) graze (cattle)
            жылқы бғғ → graze horses
            қой бғғ → graze the sheep
            mal bahu → graze cattle
            2) to educate (children); care; contain
            ата-анасын бғғ → contain parents
            aura baғu → take care of the sick
            bala bahu → raise children
            3) look after; watch
            аndі бққсам → look
            бір нәрсенің ақырын бғғу → wait, what will end
            auzyn bahu → speak with caution
            4) (in the role of an auxiliary verb, reports tension to action)
            aytyp bahu → tell him everything
            shydap bahu → endure to the last opportunity
            2. etc.
            1) grazing (livestock)
            Mal Baumen Shyldanu → Livestock
            2) parenting rules
            3) eyeing; observation
            II. ch. rarely watch
            көзіңе бғғу → look in all eyes
            kөkke bahu → pray to heaven (lit. look into the sky)
            To summarize, a dog seeing a smell / footprint
            Something like that, clumsy of course repeat

            The dog has been given something that has not been given to man: she sees smells, follows invisible tracks and leads the man along. The qualities that nature endowed her made the dog a great creature. Hunters worshiped the nurse, like farmers, to the sun and its terrestrial representatives - baboons, dung beetle, and horned animals.
          4. Atash
            Atash 7 March 2013 09: 38 New
            +1
            But the Turks cannot be Indo-Europeans? After all, they are Caucasians, not Mongoloids. The present Tatars are not bright because, mixed with the Russians, the Türks were originally bright. Genghis Khan red beard, green-eyed. The Kazakhs are dark because they are Türks mixed with the Mongoloids.
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 7 March 2013 10: 33 New
              0
              Atash "After all, they are Caucasians, not Mongoloids. Today's Tatars are bright not because, mixed with Russians, the Turks are originally bright"
              And so too ...
              Regarding the Türks, I read at Gumilyov, it seems that he gives an excerpt from the Arabic annals of the times of the Turkic Kaganate. The Arabs there were shorter than terribly suggestive; they describe the Türks as flat-faced and without ciliary comrades, who rolled on the Derbent wall almost like waves. Something like that. I think they probably brightened later. Kazan Tatars interfered not only with Russians, but also with Finno-Ugrians in the north of their possessions and in the Volga region. And how did the Türks who went west and settled in Turkey and the Caucasus? Also, take the Nogais. Those living in Karachay-Cherkessia are more similar to the highlanders of the Caucasians. And the Dagestanians retained Mongoloid features. Both of them work for us, I observe the processes of ethnogenesis with my own eyes.
              1. Atash
                Atash 7 March 2013 17: 43 New
                +1
                In "Peter the Great" by A. Tolstoy, the captured Swede also found the Russian soldiers who surrounded him flat-faced. Personally, I don't really understand this word, vision is not so stereoscopic or something.
            2. Beck
              Beck 7 March 2013 13: 18 New
              +2
              Quote: Atash
              But the Turks cannot be Indo-Europeans? After all, they are Caucasians, not Mongoloids.


              Prior to the beginning of our era, the steppes of Kazakhstan, the Volga region, Central Asia, and Xinjian were inhabited by Indo-European tribes of the Indo-Iranian language group, Andronovo culture.

              In the 1st century AD, part of the Turkic-speaking Huns, from their ancestral home, the present steppes of Mongolia and the Altai mountains, was resettled in Xinjian and in the territory of southeastern Kazakhstan where it assimilated the Indo-Europeans of the Andronovo culture living here. In the 2nd century, another part of the Khknns moved to the north of Kazakhstan and to the Volga region where they assimilated Andronovites and Ugro-Finns. (In the 4th century, a part of this cross under the Europeanized name of the Huns went derban Europe). In the 6th century, during the Tyur Kaganate, Central Asia and southwestern Kazakhstan were conquered and the last representatives of the Indo-Europeans of the Andronovo culture were assimilated. And since the Türks everywhere dominated politically, the language of the hybrids was Turkic, distinguished by adverbs and dialects.

              These Turkic tribes and Indo-Europeans of Andronovo culture later formed such Turkic peoples as Protobulgars, Bulgars of Khan Asparuh, Khazars, Volga Bulgars (Tatars), Bashkirs, Udmurts, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Uighurs and others.

              Assimilation was uneven everywhere, where more, where less. Therefore, the Turkic peoples have certain features. Tatars and Bashkirs have more European genes. Uzbeks and Uighurs can be said in half. Kazakhs have more Asian genes, as there was "cross-pollination" with the Dzungars during the hundred-year steppe war of the 17th - 18th centuries. And the Udmurts, in general, only adopted that the Turkic language.
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 7 March 2013 14: 53 New
                0
                Bek "And the Udmurts generally only adopted that the Turkic language."
                Actually, the Udmurts are not Turks. They are Finno-Ugric. And they have their own language. Those Udmurts who live in Tatarstan have Tatar words that they borrowed from their neighbors.
                1. Beck
                  Beck 7 March 2013 15: 24 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Nagaibak
                  Actually, the Udmurts are not Turks.


                  Sorry and sorry. Of course Chuvashs.
                  1. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 7 March 2013 15: 32 New
                    0
                    Beck "Sorry and apologies. Of course the Chuvash."
                    I understand that Aetius himself somehow beguiled Belisarius.
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 6 March 2013 11: 29 New
      0
      Atash "And again, when it comes to the divine, the Tver quite naturally uses two languages:" Yes, you prayed to Christ the Almighty, who created heaven and earth, and you did not call anyone else by name, god ollo, god kerim, god ragim, god hodo , god ak take it, god is the king of glory, ollo boiled, ollo ragimelno sensen ollo you. "
      Dear from this phrase, I realized that he prayed to Christ, but did not call others and lists whom he did not call. A poor devil has brought a lot of people, and you’ll begin to pray even to the Buddha.
      1. Atash
        Atash 7 March 2013 17: 00 New
        0
        he does not list whom he did not call, but praises the Almighty "god ak ber"
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 7 March 2013 17: 39 New
          0
          Atash: "Yes, you prayed to Christ the Almighty, who created heaven and earth, and you did not call anyone else by name"
          I meant this phrase.
  • Atash
    Atash 6 March 2013 09: 56 New
    0
    You're welcome, Marek. Your post suggested. As you say, I will not flatter any more. smile
  • Alibekulu
    Alibekulu 7 March 2013 01: 36 New
    +4
    In addition to the above that Kuchum was largely defeated due to the fact that his power was illegitimate and the majority of the population of the Siberian Khanate did not support him ...
    "In Vietnam it was called" fregging ": the deliberate murder of a commander by their own people. This happens in all wars, when experienced infantrymen lose respect for their leader and begin to live by their own rules" They did not kill Kuchum, but they did not support either ..
  • Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack April 16 2015 10: 23 New
    0
    bow to the Cossack brother - Sergey Volgin from Vladimir Volgin! Thanks for the article brother!
  • Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 25 October 2015 17: 33 New
    0
    bow to the author from Ataman Volsky with the surname Volgin! deed necessary Brother! thanks for the little thing!
  • Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 25 October 2015 17: 35 New
    0
    and Bargush we remember, the real Volga .......... we hell outside the army ....... officially we do not recognize the chieftain ....... idle for ......