About the armor-piercing effect of Russian 12-dm armor-piercing shells

147
About the armor-piercing effect of Russian 12-dm armor-piercing shells


Having expressed your opinion about high-explosive 12-dm shells of the Russian Imperial fleet, I turn to armor-piercing.

foreword


This cycle is intended to answer the question to what distance it was necessary for Russian squadron battleships to approach Japanese ships in order to effectively hit the latter with large-caliber armor-piercing shells. But before diving into the relevant calculations, it is necessary to understand what exactly, in fact, we are going to break through.

In some cases, it is obvious. For example, if we want to hit the main caliber of a Japanese armored ship, we need to penetrate the armor of the turret or turret-like superstructure, or the barbette. If it is the “brain center”, then the walls of the conning tower. If – artillery medium caliber, then the outer armor plates of the casemates. This is understandable, since the objects we are going to destroy are located directly behind the armor protection. But if we want to hit the enemy's machines and boilers, then everything becomes more complicated, because these sections are not located immediately behind the armor belt of the enemy ship, but are quite thoroughly "recessed" into the hull.

If we look at the sections of the battleship Asahi, we will see that in order to hit the engines and boilers of this ship, it is necessary to break through the main armor belt, then pass through the coal in the coal pit adjacent to it, then overcome the slope, but even after that The shell will be separated from the boilers by another coal pit.


Something similar is visible at the level of Asahi machines - there is a certain room between the bevel and the machines.


The Fuji did not have bevels, but there was additional protection in the form of coal pits.


In addition, Japanese armored cruisers also have coal pits behind the bevel.

Accordingly, in order to determine the distance at which our armor-piercing shells will threaten the power plant of Japanese ships, you need to understand exactly where it will be enough for the shell to explode in order to cause the desired damage. Will it be enough to ensure an explosion at the bevel, or does the projectile need to pass as a whole directly into the boiler/engine room?

The same question arises regarding the destruction of the ends of Japanese battleships and armored cruisers. Here I would like to note that the Russian 12-inch shells that hit the bow or stern of the Japanese battleship had practically no chance of reaching the armored deck, since it, at the ends, was significantly below the waterline.


This decision had its pros and cons. For example, the ends of the Asahi were protected by 140 mm armor, which thinned out to 102 mm closer to the stem/sternpost. It is unlikely that such protection could withstand the impact of a large-caliber high-explosive projectile of the “Russian model” at any reasonable combat distance. Even if the projectile did not have enough “manpower” to penetrate the armor, its explosion in the process of overcoming the armor would create a hole in the hull. Moreover, such protection did not protrude from the water very much, and there was no upper armor belt. Accordingly, even damage to the unarmored side over the armor plates at the ends could lead to intense flooding of the ends and Japanese battleships receiving a large volume of water spilling over the armored deck.

But, on the other hand, the Russian armor-piercing projectile had practically no chance of hitting the armored deck of the ends - after passing through the 102-140 mm plate, the explosion would have occurred above the armored deck or upon reaching the 102 mm belt of the other side - depending on the width armadillo at the point of impact. Could the high-explosive and fragmentation effects of a 12-inch armor-piercing projectile that exploded above the armored deck of the extremities damage it until it lost its waterproofness?

What did a Russian shell that landed in the area of ​​the main caliber towers have to penetrate in order to “reach” their cellars?

To answer these questions, we need to understand how Russian armor-piercing shells worked after breaking through armor. Unfortunately, I have little information about this, only three cases, two of which I have already described earlier. But, in order not to force the dear reader to delve into my previous articles, I will repeat.

Tests of the armored compartment of ships of the "Andrey Pervozvanny" type


Unfortunately, unlike later tests of the Chesma, only a separate compartment of the ship was simulated, so it is extremely difficult to assess the damage that the projectile caused outside its confines. The compartment itself had the following design. Behind the Krupp steel armor plate with a thickness of 203 mm (tests took place in 1904, the thickness of the armor belt had not yet been finally determined) there was a side corridor. It consisted of a vertical bulkhead and bevel made of 5/8 inch (15,88 mm) steel, with additional 11/16 inch (17,46 mm) thick steel sheets laid on the bevel, that is, the total thickness of the bevel was 33,34. XNUMX mm.

A 12-inch shell filled with pyroxylin, as expected, caused complete destruction in this corridor. Exploding approximately 2,5 m behind the armor plate, it completely disrupted the connection between the bulkhead and the slope "with bending and lifting them upward <...> tearing out two beams and bending the rest" At the same time, a hole approximately 254 by 508 mm was formed in the bulkhead.

Alas, the results described above can tell us practically nothing. Obviously, when a 12-inch projectile explodes, it is bound to destroy steel structures close to it; this is understandable even without testing. At the same time, there is no data to suggest what kind of damage the fragments and the energy of the shell explosion could have caused outside the bulkhead and bevel. Perhaps the only useful thing that can be taken out of this case is the distance that the projectile traveled behind the slab.

Hitting "Mikasa", Tsushima, Russian time - 15:57


Usually one can only speculate on what kind of shell hit the Japanese ship - armor-piercing or high-explosive. But, fortunately, not in this case. According to the respected A. Rytik, the Japanese, based on studying the fragments, determined that the 12-inch projectile that hit the Mikasa was armor-piercing.

The shell hit a 148-mm plate of Krupp armor at a distance of 22-27 artillery cables and pierced it. The rupture occurred approximately 3 m from the slab under the middle deck, which consisted of 25 mm shipbuilding steel sheets. The shell, apparently, exploded either at the moment of contact with the transverse bulkhead separating the 21st and 19th coal pits, or in the immediate vicinity of it. In any case, the explosion occurred not far from the place where the transverse bulkhead connected to the longitudinal one.


Scheme taken from naval-manual.livejournal.com

As a result of the rupture, both the longitudinal and transverse bulkheads were broken, and a hole of 7x2 meters was formed in the deck of casemate No. 1,7. No other damage is reported in Russian-language sources.

The damage looks noticeably more modest than in the case of shelling of a compartment of battleships of the Andrei Pervozvanny class, but the reason for this is unclear. On the one hand, according to the respected A. Tameev, our armor-piercing shells of the Russian-Japanese War were filled not with pyroxylin, but with smokeless gunpowder, which, of course, obviously weakened the energy of their explosion. But, on the other hand, without having familiarized myself with the documents on the basis of which the conclusion was made about the powder filling of our armor-piercing shells, I have no right to exclude the possibility of error in this matter. At the same time, the relatively weak destruction can be explained by the fact that the coal pit contained a significant amount of coal - the force of the explosion threw 5 tons of the latter into other compartments, including the casemate located above the coal pit. That is, if we assume that the projectile was still filled with pyroxylin, but went deep into the coal and exploded inside the coal mass, this may well explain the weakening effect of the explosion on the bulkheads.

And again, it is not surprising that the coal pit could be filled to capacity. H. Togo did not know until recently whether the Russian squadron would go through the Tsushima Strait or around Japan, and was ready for a quick dash to the Tsugaru Strait. Accordingly, the ships of the United Fleet kept a full supply of coal almost until the last, not only filling coal pits with it, but also not hesitating to lay it out on the decks. When it became clear that Z.P. Rozhestvensky was leading his squadrons through the Tsushima Strait, there was, in general, no time to unload coal from the pits. Although it was removed from the decks.

Again, if A. Tameev’s information is correct, then it is no longer possible to talk about Russian armor-piercing shells as armor-piercing, since the tube arr. 1894, with its standard operation, it should have led to the explosion of the projectile at the moment it passed the armor. But, on the other hand, in some cases, perhaps with a faulty tube, the shells could still pass behind the armor to a certain distance, as demonstrated by the shell that hit the Mikasa. At the same time, this distance turned out to be quite comparable with that given by tests of shells equipped with a Brink tube or its post-war analogue.

Shelling of the experimental vessel "Chesma", shot No. 46 on August 25, 1913.


It is known that during the famous tests of the newest 470,9 kg projectiles mod. 1911, older, 331,7 kg shells were also used in compartments simulating the protection of Sevastopol-class battleships. At the same time, according to Professor E.A. Berkalov, the Russian Imperial Navy used armor-piercing shells similar to those used during the Russo-Japanese War. The only difference was a slight change in the design to use an armor-piercing cap.

Shot No. 46 was fired by just such a projectile, and the explosive content was 4 kg. The latter is surprising - the fact is that the armor-piercing projectiles were reloaded with TNT, the content of which, depending on the design of the projectile, was 5,3-6 kg. It can be assumed that the number of explosives was reduced for some purpose, but why was this done? Perhaps it is worth talking about a typo in the report, or the projectile was not loaded with TNT, but with wet pyroxylin, which should be about 4,7 kg in the projectile. In any case, the difference in the force of the explosion with a shell filled with pyroxylin was not too great. The results turned out like this.

The projectile hit the 125-mm casemate plate without deviation from the normal at a speed of 525 m/s and pierced it. There is nothing surprising in the latter - in such conditions, even a shell without a cap should have confidently penetrated about 236 mm of Krupp armor. The explosion apparently occurred during contact with the 37,5-mm armored bulkhead, which formed the rear wall of the casemate, or in close proximity to it. This is evidenced by the nature of the damage. On the one hand, a torn hole of 820x600 mm formed in the bulkhead, which is somehow too much for a fragmentation injury if the explosion occurred a couple of meters from the bulkhead. Of course, if it exploded, the head of the projectile could survive and fly forward, but it could hardly break through such a hole. On the other hand, the rear bulkhead was severely cut by shrapnel, and the door to the casemate was knocked out - this indicates that the explosion occurred in the casemate, and not outside it.

In the casemate itself, many fragments of armor and shell fragments were found, including pieces of its bottom part. But where the head part itself ended up - nothing is said.

The design of the fuse is unknown to me, but it can be assumed that it was a modified Brink tube. In any case, the fuse ensured the detonation of the projectile approximately 3 m behind the armor plate, which is quite consistent with the action of the Brink tube.

Perhaps this shot is the most “talking” of all.

The casemate of the Sevastopol-class battleships was a box, the floor of which was formed by a 25-mm steel deck, the ceiling by a 37,5-mm armored deck, and the rear part by a 37,5-mm armored partition. Naturally, there was no coal in the casemate. As a result of the explosion, both decks were not damaged and did not have any noticeable damage - such damage was always described in reports of other shots fired at the Chesma, but no mention was made of them here. The rear 37,5 mm armor is penetrated, but again there is no description of the damage done to the ship's structures behind it. This suggests that there were either none at all, or they were completely insignificant: otherwise, test reports describe such damage.

Conclusions


Summarizing the above, I come to the following.

First. Our 12-inch armor-piercing shells obviously did not have the ability to penetrate deep into the ship’s hull - in all three cases described above, the explosion followed 2,5-3 m behind the armor plate. Accordingly, the explosion usually followed in the compartment located immediately behind the broken slab.

Second. In terms of horizontal protection, even 25 mm steel decks were, in general, good horizontal protection, ensuring localization of the rupture inside the affected compartment. On the Chesma such a deck was not breached at all. On the Mikasa, a hole appeared in it, but, apparently, only because the shell exploded in close proximity to it. At the same time, the casemate located above the broken deck was not significantly damaged: only due to the deformation of the deck, the vertical aiming angles of the 6-dm gun located in it were limited. In other words, having achieved a hit in a compartment of an enemy ship with an armor-piercing projectile whose trajectory runs approximately parallel to the decks, we cannot count on the fact that the compartments located under or above the damaged room will receive serious damage from fragments of such a projectile. Here there is a noticeable difference from the domestic 12-mm high-explosive projectile, which pierced 25-mm decks with fragments very well.

Accordingly, the chances of damage to the armored deck at the extremities, in my opinion, are negligible. High-explosive 10-inch shells, which apparently exploded in the stern of the Asama, putting it out of action for some time, did not cause damage to the armored deck, although they significantly shattered the remaining hull structures with fragments. And this despite the fact that the fragmentation and high-explosive effects of 10-dm high explosives are higher than that of 12-dm armor-piercing shells, which is fully confirmed by the above examples.

The third. Apparently, the real chances of causing damage to mechanisms located outside the compartment where the 12-inch armor-piercing projectile exploded existed only in one place: in the compartment following the one struck in the direction of the projectile’s trajectory. What’s interesting is that in this case, 12-inch high-explosive shells also, apparently, gave better damage to fragments - the latter could pierce right through several bulkheads and even the opposite side. This is probably due to the large explosive charge, which, when exploding, added greater acceleration to the head of the projectile and fragments in the direction in which the projectile was moving, but I won’t guess.



From the above it follows that in order to destroy the power plant of a Japanese squadron battleship, our 10-12-inch projectile had to penetrate the main armor belt and bevel - in this case, the projectile would explode in the room behind the bevel and would have a good chance of disabling the boilers and engines of the enemy ship.


The same is apparently true for armored cruisers.

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  1. +1
    15 August 2024 08: 54
    Interesting research.
    And what is the data on the damage to the Nuclear Forces Facility in the Yellow Sea on July 28.07.1904, XNUMX?
    The Japanese flagship Mikasa was hit by 22 large-caliber shells, both main-caliber turrets and half of the medium-caliber artillery were out of action, 32 people in the crew were killed (4 officers), 82 were wounded (10 officers).
    A large-caliber shell that hit the battleship Asahi pierced its side under the waterline near the stern and caused severe damage inside the ship; A senior artillery officer and several sailors were killed by shrapnel. The armored cruiser Kassuga was hit by three large shells, causing great destruction. The superstructure of the armored cruiser Nissin was badly damaged; there were 16 killed (six officers) and 31 wounded on the ship. The battleship Chin-yen was hit by two shells. The heavy cruiser Yakumo was hit by one large-caliber shell (from a distance of 80 cables; the Japanese ship had not even had time to declare a combat alert), 9 people were killed and 13 were wounded.
    1. +6
      15 August 2024 11: 01
      Quote: dragon772
      And what is the data on the damage to the Nuclear Forces Facility in the Yellow Sea on July 28.07.1904, XNUMX?

      You can find them in the naval_manual, for example, on the Mikasa - in the article “As long as it can be controlled at all. Damage to the battleship Mikasa in the battle near Cape Shantung.” If you are not satisfied with online publications, then watch Polomoshnov’s “Battle of July 28, 1904”
      Quote: dragon772
      The Japanese flagship Mikasa was hit by 22 large-caliber shells, both main-caliber turrets and half of the medium-caliber artillery were damaged.

      This is fiction from 100 years ago, when publications were based on the opinions of our officers and French newspapers describing the battle. Now there are Japanese documents. In reality, “Mikasa” was hit by 20-22 shells, while the main battery turret failed (however, it is far from certain that it was from a hit by a Russian shell and not from the explosion of its shell in the barrel) and one 152-mm gun received a limitation on the firing sector.
      Quote: dragon772
      32 people were killed (4 officers), 82 were wounded (10 officers).

      33 people were killed and died from their wounds, and of the 92 wounded, 12 were discharged.
      18 officers and warrant officers were injured
      Quote: dragon772
      The armored cruiser Kassuga was hit by three large shells, causing great destruction.

      Didn't cause it. Mechanisms, tools, etc. were not damaged
      Quote: dragon772
      To the heavy cruiser Yakumo

      Armored cruiser.
      Quote: dragon772
      one large-caliber shell hit (from a distance of 80 cables, the Japanese ship had not even had time to declare a combat alert)

      "Yakumo" received this hit in the period between two phases, when it was catching up with the main forces of H. Togo and approached the Russian ships. According to von Essen's report, the Poltava and Sevastopol trailers opened fire on him, while the distance between Poltava and Yakumo (again, according to von Essen) was no more than 40 cables.
      If we look at Japanese sources, then in the lecture given by K. Abo to British officers after the war, it was mentioned about the serious damage and losses caused by the Russian 152-mm Poltava shell, which hit the Yakumo from a distance of 13 yards, that is, about 000 cables. However, this distance is obviously false - Russian 65-dm cannons did not fire at such distances, the end battleships could fire at 6 cables.
      1. 0
        16 August 2024 17: 59
        Damage to the battleship "Mikasa" in the battle near Cape Shantung." There are a lot of inconsistencies and assumptions.
        But according to statistics, more hits fell on the stern of the Mikasa.
        1. +1
          16 August 2024 22: 24
          Quote: dragon772
          Damage to the battleship "Mikasa" in the battle near Cape Shantung." There are a lot of inconsistencies and assumptions.

          List it :))))
          Quote: dragon772
          But according to statistics, more hits fell on the stern of the Mikasa.

          Why was this even said?
  2. +2
    15 August 2024 09: 33
    Good morning Andrey!
    There is not a single mention of diving shells. Apparently the fuses went off when they hit the water?
    And also, how right the British were when they created before WWII a universal armor-piercing projectile with a “sensitive” fuse, but with a replacement. In the end, at long distances, damage to superstructures from rare hits does not outweigh damage to the hull and interior.
    1. +2
      15 August 2024 11: 12
      Hello, Victor!
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      There is not a single mention of diving shells. Apparently the fuses went off when they hit the water?

      Well why? Such hits occurred on Japanese armored cruisers. It’s just that within the framework of armor penetration, these hits are of little interest, since, after all, the armor of BRKR and EBR extends below the waterline, and the projectile will reach it slowed down by water. Obviously, in this case, the probability of penetrating the armor belt will be less than during “surface” firing.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      In the end, at long distances, damage to superstructures from rare hits does not outweigh damage to the hull and interior.

      Of course, an armor-piercing projectile must penetrate deep into the hull of an enemy ship, there is no doubt about that. It’s more difficult with a high-explosive one, but I still believe that a deceleration of 0,005 seconds, which allows such a projectile to overcome thin armor (or a light deck) and explode immediately behind it, would be more correct. And ideally, of course, we need BB, semi-BB and clean land mines with a head fuse
  3. +2
    15 August 2024 12: 35
    “An armor-piercing bomb and generally filled with gunpowder causes destruction on the opposite side, while a bomb filled with strong explosives (lyddite, melinite, pyroxylin, etc.) destroys the side it hits.”
    Rules of the tactical naval game Jena, Lieutenant Kerber, 1902, artillery training detachment of the Baltic Fleet.
    "....Effect of German grenades (in the war of 1871).... when firing at troops, grenades caused noticeable damage only at low angles of incidence; in these conditions, shell explosions due to slow action of the powder charge occurred on a ricochet, and the fragments were not lost in the ground. At a distance of over 1,5 km, grenade explosions occurred in the ground, and there were very few injuries from them.
    .....
    The maximum reach of grenades with tubes in 1875 did not exceed 4500 m for field artillery and 2500 m for mountain artillery. However, at extreme distances, the shells buried deep into the ground, left the bulk of the fragments in the craters and inflicted weak defeats on the enemy; Therefore, Russian field artillery avoided firing at extreme distances."
    V.I. Rdultovsky directly writes that the delayed action of gunpowder shells of the late 19th century. is explained not by the slowing down of the fuses (which they did not have), but precisely by the powder equipment (I will add - without a strong primer and detonator).

    All this was quite obvious to the artillerymen of the Russian fleet at the beginning of the 20th century, when “powder” bombs were still in use, both cast iron and steel. Therefore, in their opinion, a high-explosive steel bomb filled with smokeless powder should not have exploded immediately after breaking through the side, which is reflected in the rules of the Jena Game, which was then taken quite seriously.
    1. +2
      15 August 2024 12: 56
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      V.I. Rdultovsky directly writes that the delayed action of gunpowder shells of the late 19th century. is explained not by the slowing down of the fuses (which they did not have), but precisely by the powder equipment (I will add - without a strong primer and detonator).

      Bottom inertial fuses of naval artillery, designed for shells filled with powder, certainly gave a slight deceleration - this directly follows from their design.
      https://topwar.ru/239438-vzryvateli-russkoj-morskoj-artillerii-perioda-russko-japonskoj-vojny-trubka-obr-1894-g.html
      It was about 0,005 seconds. But, undoubtedly, the process of bursting a projectile filled with gunpowder takes a much longer time than a projectile filled with the same pyroxylin
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      Therefore, in their opinion, a high-explosive steel bomb, filled with smokeless powder, should not have exploded immediately after breaking through the side

      Quite possible. But not too far from the latter
      1. 0
        15 August 2024 13: 51
        This is “fortune-telling” now, alas. But indirect conclusions can be drawn if we remember that “firing on ricochets” is not excluded for much later guns.
        "Rdultovsky head membrane fuse of the second sample (RGM-2) safety type
        with three fuse action settings (Fig. 3.1.1):
        1) high-explosive (inertial) action - the tap is open, the cap is screwed on;
        2) fragmentation (instant) action - the tap is open, the cap is screwed on;
        3) slow (ricochet) action - the tap is closed, the cap is screwed on."

        In the modern understanding of domestic artillery, the “inertial” action is 0,005 seconds, the slow action is 0,01 seconds. or more.
        1. +2
          16 August 2024 13: 08
          Quote: Dimax-Nemo
          But indirect conclusions can be drawn if we remember that “firing on ricochets” is not excluded for much later guns.

          Apparently, when it hit the water and caused a ricochet, the shell was not cocked
          1. 0
            19 August 2024 12: 57

            Apparently, when it hit the water and caused a ricochet, the shell was not cocked

            I meant that to fire on ricochets in land artillery it is still necessary to slow down the response by more than 0,01 seconds; setting the “inertial action” to 0,005 seconds is not enough for this, judging by the training manual. If the cast iron bombs of the 1870s. allowed to shoot on ricochets, then the time it ultimately took them to detonate should also be at least 0,01 seconds.
            1. 0
              19 August 2024 19: 06
              Quote: Dimax-Nemo

              I meant that to fire on ricochets in land artillery it is still necessary to slow down the response by more than 0,01 seconds, setting the “inertial action” to 0,005 seconds is not enough for this,

              I'm sorry, but you are wrong. In the example you gave, we have not a bottom fuse, but a head fuse, which, naturally and invariantly, will go off when the projectile contacts the ground. And here, of course, you need 0,01 seconds of deceleration so that it has time to “ricochet” and fly away to its destination while the fuse goes off. And the sea bottom fuses, apparently, did not fire at all from the ricochet on the water. Thus, a large deceleration for a naval projectile for “ricochet” shooting is not necessary.
              1. 0
                20 August 2024 11: 22
                I'm not talking about whether the naval shell should have exploded when it hit the water or not. Ricochet from water doesn’t interest me at all now. I'm talking about the fact that shells filled with gunpowder and "primitive" tubes, in principle, had a delay of at least 0,01 when hitting anywhere (although, of course, on soft soils a bottom fuse is not the best idea). Incl. on board. Fundamentally, the design of the tubes of those times (before Brink and Heydrich) did not differ in the bottom version or in the head version. They did not have any special slowdown; the response time was approximately the same.
                1. 0
                  20 August 2024 12: 28
                  Fundamentally, the design of the tubes of those times (before Brink and Heydrich) did not differ in the bottom version or in the head version.

                  Look at the diagram of the same RGM-2 you are referring to. It is from the same tube arr. 1894 is as different as an ancient Greek goddess from an earthworm. There are several strikers and a special retarder.
                  1. 0
                    20 August 2024 16: 02
                    I refer to it for only one purpose - to find out the deceleration time required for shooting at ricochets ON LAND. Then it makes no difference whether the RGM-2 is in a projectile equipped with a modern explosive, or a cast iron powder grenade with a “Prussian-style impact device.” Still, the total response time is from 0,1 seconds. And the Russian Morved’s “powder bombs” will have about the same amount.
                    1. 0
                      20 August 2024 16: 10
                      Great, you found out. All that remains is to understand on what basis you draw your conclusion
                      that shells filled with gunpowder and “primitive” tubes, in principle, had a delay of at least 0,01 when hitting anywhere (although, of course, a bottom fuse on soft soils is not the best idea). Incl. on board. Fundamentally, the design of the tubes of those times (before Brink and Heydrich) did not differ in the bottom version or in the head version.
                      1. 0
                        21 August 2024 12: 57
                        Based on the similarity of the equipment of the shells. First of all, in terms of explosives, i.e. gunpowder, which provides the “delay” in this case. Not a fuse. You yourself wrote that the Baranovsky tube has no delay. You can be sure that there was no special slowdown either in the Russian pipes of the Russian-Turkish war, or in the Prussian ones, on the basis of which the Russians were made. And shooting on ricochets with such shells was possible only because the gunpowder “did not want” to explode immediately after the fuse was triggered.
  4. +4
    15 August 2024 17: 32
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    A new article is always a great reason to continue the discussion.
    This article especially created many such occasions. I will write as time permits.
    I'll start from the end.
    In the last diagram, the shell explodes in "amm pass". This is a special passage for supplying shells and charges of SK and secondary guns from the cellars located at the ends to the vertical supply shafts and further to the guns.
    And I think you understand what a break in such a place can lead to...

    There was no such passage on our ships. They tried to place the cellars under the guns. And if a horizontal pass was still required, then they tried to cover it. At least with coal, as on the Orel, they covered the supply of 75-mm shells to the stern guns.
    1. +1
      15 August 2024 21: 27
      Good evening, Alexey!
      Quote: rytik32
      And I think you understand what a break in such a place can lead to...

      It may or may not lead to something. Essentially, in order to detonate the ammunition that is transported along this corridor, you need to hit it. In this case, however, there is no chance of any extra-large damage - simply because the detonation of even several 6-dm shells will not do anything particularly extraordinary by itself.
      1. -1
        15 August 2024 22: 33
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        however, there is no chance of any extra-large damage - simply because the detonation of even several 6-dm shells will not do anything particularly extraordinary by itself

        Tell Iwata about this. Destroyed casemates, minus three 6" guns, huge losses in crews - those same few detonated 6-dm shells tongue
        1. +3
          15 August 2024 22: 44
          Quote: Saxahorse
          those same few detonated 6-dm shells

          Only in your erotic fantasies, Saxahorse. In reality, the shell hit a rack with 6-inch shells, stacked there to ensure a high rate of fire at the beginning of the battle. And, of course, there were much more shells in the rack than in the standard “basket” that transfers these shells to the guns. After the explosion, the Japanese were missing as many as 23 6-dm shells.
          But the most important thing, which you, as usual, failed to understand, is that the essence of my thesis is that in order to inflict serious damage on a Russian projectile, it is necessary to penetrate the bevel. Which, in fact, neither Alexey nor your cheerful fantasy refute.
          1. +1
            15 August 2024 23: 30
            In reality, the projectile hit a rack with 6-inch shells, stacked there to ensure a high rate of fire at the beginning of the battle

            The battle had already been going on for almost 2 hours.

            there were much more shells than in the standard “basket” that transfers these shells to the guns

            The gazebos were accepted into the RIF. I don’t know how the Japanese fired the shells, we have to look for it. The Asama, for example, had only manual feeding of 6-inch shells.
            After the explosion, the Japanese were missing as many as 23 shells of 6-dm caliber

            But it is not clear whether they all exploded, or whether the damaged ones were also counted.
            to inflict serious damage on a Russian projectile it is necessary to penetrate the bevel

            Or hit through a technological hole in the bevel...
            1. +1
              16 August 2024 13: 06
              Quote: rytik32
              The battle had already been going on for almost 2 hours.

              However, a significant number of the recommended 23 6-inch shells were located in the casemate in which the Russian shell exploded. Photos of the damage speak for themselves; there was almost nothing left of the casemate.
              Quote: rytik32
              The gazebos were accepted into the RIF. How the Japanese supplied shells - I don’t know

              I think there was some kind of analogue of a gazebo, but this is still the most convenient form of presentation. I strongly doubt that the feed could have been carried out in a line one at a time.
              Quote: rytik32
              Or hit through a technological hole in the bevel...

              The likelihood of which is extremely low
              1. 0
                17 August 2024 00: 08
                I think there was some kind of analogue of a gazebo, but this is still the most convenient form of presentation. I strongly doubt that the feed could have been carried out in a line one at a time.

                I looked at the diagrams. The passages for supplying shells were separated by watertight bulkheads and doors. Those. There could be no gazebos on the horizontal section.
                But there were electric motors for supply. At Sikisiema there are six 27A 80V. On Mikas there are four 20A 80V. This is nothing, they probably only raised shells from the passages into the casemates. Those. accumulation of shells in the passages could well have occurred.
                For comparison, the Oslyab had 16 45A 105V motors for feeding shells
                1. +1
                  17 August 2024 00: 17
                  The passages for supplying shells were separated by watertight bulkheads and doors. Those. There could be no gazebos on the horizontal section.

                  Alexey, please clarify. I don’t understand at all how one follows from the other.
                  Those. accumulation of shells in the passages could well have occurred.

                  How? In this case, judging by your description, we have simply a path for transferring ammunition from the cellars to the casemates. There was no possibility of overloading inside these passages, and there was no need either. A small number of motors may indicate a relatively slow feed, but not an accumulation of projectiles - otherwise the motors simply will not cope.
                  Perhaps I didn't understand you, of course.
                  1. 0
                    17 August 2024 00: 53
                    I don’t understand at all how one follows from the other.

                    There is no way to feed on rails through sealed doors. Those. the shells were carried by hand.
                    There was no way to overload inside these passages

                    Why? A man was standing right next to the vertical lift, loading shells. And next to him there was a “bunch” of shells.
                    A small number of motors may indicate a relatively slow feed

                    Then the rate of fire would be low, so it is unlikely.
                    Judging by the number and power of the engines, they lifted the shells one at a time and only from the passages to the “upper” casemates. And the shells were fed into the “lower” casemates by hand.
                    1. +1
                      17 August 2024 09: 03
                      There is no way to feed on rails through sealed doors. Those. the shells were carried by hand.

                      It is impossible to pass shells through hermetic doors either by rail or manually, otherwise it will no longer be a hermetically sealed door. That is, either the projectiles moved within the sealed compartment, or the compartments were not sealed, but in either case there is no reason to refuse mechanical feed.
                      Motors that could move carts/arbors with shells horizontally could have a different name, since they did not supply ammunition directly to the guns.
                      Why so?

                      The size of the corridor does not allow for a large number of people to be in it, and a lot of them would be required if they were carrying the shells by hand.
                      Then the rate of fire would be low, so it is unlikely.

                      It was meant that, regardless of the number and performance of the motors lifting shells to the guns, there was no point in storing shells in the corridors you indicated.
                      Judging by the number and power of the engines, they lifted the shells one at a time

                      Alexey, the difference in power with the electric motors of the same Oslyaby is by no means significant, it is absolutely not clear where such a conclusion comes from. Now I'll see what I have for submission
                      1. 0
                        17 August 2024 09: 35
                        otherwise it will no longer be a sealed door

                        You can do it manually. Open the door and walk. But if you put a rail through an open door, you won’t be able to close it.

                        Motors that could move carts/arbors with projectiles horizontally could have a different name

                        There is a complete list of electrical equipment.

                        power with electric motors of the same Oslyabi is by no means several times greater

                        "Oslyabya" 4725 W
                        Japanese 1600 or 2160 W
                        What did you think?

                        The size of the corridor does not allow for a large number of people to be in it

                        According to the diagram there is enough space there
                      2. +1
                        17 August 2024 10: 02
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You can do it manually. Open the door and walk.

                        It is forbidden. If the door is open in this way (and it must always be open when shells are supplied), then it is impossible to talk about any tightness.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There is a complete list of electrical equipment.

                        Accordingly, this is what we need to look for.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        "Oslyabya" 4725 W
                        Japanese 1600 or 2160 W
                        What did you think?

                        And I count them by feed elevators, Peresvet had 9 of them for 6-dm and 4 for 75-mm, and a total of 13, but some of them were “double-acting”. That is, in the usual case, one elevator was served by one electric motor. Thus, it turns out that our 45A 105V engine worked with the gazebos alone. At the same time, the productivity of our winch is indicated as 160 kg (10 pounds). I really don’t see why 20A 80V. carry gazebos that are slightly smaller in size.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        According to the diagram there is enough space there

                        I think we need to “dance” here from the ammunition magazines - after all, the corridors are the link between them and the guns
                      3. 0
                        17 August 2024 10: 23
                        then it is impossible to talk about any tightness

                        Absolutely right. Those. a hit by our shell and the influx of water would force us to close these doors and stop the supply of shells.

                        Accordingly, it is necessary to look for

                        I was looking. There is nothing else.

                        I think we need to “dance” here from the ammunition magazines

                        The diagram is a level below.
                        6" QF shell room - these are shells
                        6" QF magazine - charges
                        they are taken out to the handing room
                        then through the hatches they are lifted to the lower deck
                        then carried by hand through the ammun passage
                        and served in the casemates via amm hoist
                        4 motors for the Mikasa and 6 for the Shikishima for supplying shells to the casemates of the upper deck. The quantity coincides too clearly. And shells cannot be fed there manually.
                        76-mm shells were raised with pride
                      4. +1
                        17 August 2024 10: 51
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Those. a hit by our shell and the influx of water would force us to close these doors and stop the supply of shells.

                        Yes, such a result would be quite possible. Regardless of how the delivery was carried out
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The diagram is a level below.

                        It’s a bit difficult to figure out this diagram, I’ll look at Asahi
  5. +4
    15 August 2024 18: 00
    then - pass the coal in the adjacent coal pit

    There won't necessarily be coal in the pit. It may be used up or not loaded.
    overcome the slope

    The bevel is also not continuous. It has a lot of technological holes: for supplying shells, coal, ventilation, pipes with water for various purposes, speaking pipes...
    For example, a breakup could happen like this
    1. +2
      15 August 2024 21: 30
      Quote: rytik32
      There won't necessarily be coal in the pit. It may be used up or not loaded.

      In reality, it was almost always there - admirals preferred to go into battle with a full supply of coal
      Quote: rytik32
      For example, a breakup could happen like this

      Maybe, of course, who can argue, although it is strange that the Japanese did not provide any protection for such ventilation systems.
      Quote: rytik32
      It has a lot of technological holes: for supplying shells, coal

      Of course, but in cases known to us, this only led to the fact that a certain amount of coal spilled out of the pit, as happened when a 12-dm BB hit a 148 mm armored belt
      1. -4
        15 August 2024 22: 34
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In reality, it was almost always there - admirals preferred to go into battle with a full supply of coal

        Only Rozhdestvensky specifically moved his head during coal loading. fool
        1. +3
          15 August 2024 22: 45
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Only Rozhdestvensky

          Yes. And Vitgeft. And Togo. And Jellicoe. AND....
          1. 0
            15 August 2024 23: 51
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Yes. And Vitgeft. And Togo. And Jellicoe. AND....

            Yeah yeah. In your article, you mentioned bags of coal on the decks of Japanese battleships, prepared in case of an urgent push north to the Sangar Strait. But you were embarrassed to write where exactly Togo “removed” the coal while moving into the Tsushima Strait. Togo threw all the excess coal overboard. Rozhdestvensky would rather jump out himself than allow such sacrilege! wassat
            1. +1
              16 August 2024 02: 14
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Togo threw all the excess coal overboard.

              And how much is this in tons, may I ask?
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Rozhestvensky would rather jump out himself than allow such sacrilege!

              Do you want to say that on the upper deck of the Suvorov there were bags of coal, like on the Mikasa?
              1. -4
                16 August 2024 20: 47
                Quote: Comrade
                And how much is this in tons, may I ask?

                By the way, I need to ask you this. You were one of the first to publish this on topware at one time, citing documents you had or access to.
                1. +2
                  16 August 2024 22: 26
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  By the way, I need to ask you this.

                  As usual, it’s Saxahorse’s job to spoil the air... ehhhm, to interfere with his many-wise opinions, and let someone else prove them.
                  1. 0
                    18 August 2024 18: 35
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    let someone else prove them.

                    Since this "someone else" suddenly plunged into the abyss of sclerosis, unable to remember what he himself once published, it is not difficult for us to calculate. For a possible dash north from Sasebo, Togo, a reserve of 200-250 tons is enough. And of course, this is not such a load for the battleship that it would go into the water by a meter. wassat
                    1. 0
                      18 August 2024 19: 24
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      For a possible breakthrough to the north from Sasebo, Togo, a reserve of 200-250 tons is sufficient

                      Excellent Saxahorse, you just proved that the Mikasa needed coal on deck in order to arrive with a full combat reserve to the place of the expected battle.
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      And of course this is not such a load for an armadillo that it would go as much as a meter into the water

                      Certainly. And he was sitting right next to the anti-submarine nets, that is, his coal pits were full.
                      1. 0
                        19 August 2024 21: 35
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        to arrive with a full combat reserve to the place of the expected battle.

                        Great Andrey! You just invented a new naval term! All that remains is to add it to the directories under your name. laughing

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And he was sitting right next to the anti-submarine nets, that is, his coal pits were full.

                        But at the same time, the armor belt did not go into the water, as you repeated several times above. It's not contradictory. wassat
                      2. 0
                        19 August 2024 22: 01
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        But the armor belt did not go into the water

                        First, try to realize that the Mikasa had a full supply of coal and, in addition to this, a pile of coal on the deck, and after removing the coal from the deck, just a full supply of coal. I think two or three years will be enough for you, and then we will look together at where the upper edge of the armor was in relation to the water. There is already too much information for you right now :)
                      3. 0
                        19 August 2024 23: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        that the Mikasa had a full supply of coal and, in addition to this, a pile of coal on the deck, and after removing the coal from the deck - just a full supply of coal.

                        Perhaps you should gather your thoughts and at least try to explain to yourself - why did Togo throw out the coal? I won’t say for sure about Mikasa, but Nissin dropped 167 tons of coal. For what ?
                      4. 0
                        19 August 2024 23: 20
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Perhaps you should gather your thoughts and at least try to explain to yourself - why did Togo throw out the coal?

                        I told you
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I think two or three years will be enough for you,
            2. +4
              16 August 2024 12: 34
              Quote: Saxahorse
              But you were embarrassed to write where exactly Togo “removed” the coal while moving into the Tsushima Strait. Togo threw all the excess coal overboard.

              He threw the coal off the deck. And even you, Saxahorse, should have been clear that the full supply of coal is determined by fully loaded coal pits; coal on deck is an “over-full” supply :)))
              Well, Togo did not throw coal out of the coal pits, which is quite clear from the descriptions of hits on Japanese ships - there was coal in the pits.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Rozhestvensky would rather jump out himself than allow such sacrilege!

              Argue with Balakin about this. He claims that the Japanese considered the coal reserves on the Fuji (1163 tons) to be obviously insufficient, which is why, I quote
              “therefore, during the war, on this ship it was necessary to load additional boxes installed on the deck, the carpenter’s storeroom and even the ship’s commander’s camp cabin with coal”

              But you continue to fantasize about Japanese battleships going into battle with a normal supply of coal (about 700 tons), your bedtime stories are very entertaining laughing
              1. -3
                16 August 2024 20: 57
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                He threw the coal off the deck. And even you, Saxahorse, should have been clear that the full supply of coal is determined by fully loaded coal pits; coal on deck is an “over-full” supply :)))

                Even you, Andrey, should know that there is normal displacement and there is full displacement. All combat characteristics of the ship are calculated for normal displacement, including speed and protection. Full displacement is the limit after which the ship will sink. You also know this very well, but as Rozhdestvensky’s long-time guardian, you do not hesitate to lie and distort, as in this particular episode.

                There is not a single fact confirming that Japanese battleships were overloaded so much that the armor belt went into the water. Of course, there was also coal in the pits of Togo’s battleships. But there was a normal supply and not a full one. And that’s why the extra supply was left in bags on the decks so that they could quickly be thrown overboard before the battle. It's obviously Watson! tongue
                1. +3
                  16 August 2024 22: 22
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Full displacement is the limit after which the ship will sink.

                  An example of your... well, to put it mildly, your delusions, is the Seydlitz LCR, which took in 5300 tons of water, and had a displacement much higher than full, but returned to its native harbor.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Of course, there was also coal in the pits of Togo’s battleships. But there was a normal supply and not a full one.

                  Yes, yes, of course, and the pink ponies have just established an armed dictatorship in Antarctica.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  There is not a single fact confirming that Japanese battleships were overloaded so much that the armor belt went into the water.

                  And he didn’t leave at full displacement. In order for it to go under water (0,76 m), it was necessary to overload the battleship by 1900 tons. However, a day before Tsushima, it was overloaded much more, sinking more than a meter into the water. And there is confirmation of this - this was recorded by Captain T. Jackson in a report dated May 25, 1905 in the book “THE RUSSO-JAPANESE WAR. 1904-1905. Reports from naval attachés."
                  I understand that Jackson is difficult to refute, so start with Balakin laughing
                  1. 0
                    18 August 2024 18: 06
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    An example of your... well, to put it mildly, your delusions, is the Seydlitz LCR, which took in 5300 tons of water, and had a displacement much higher than full, but returned to its native harbor.

                    Yes, he left impressive photos. Almost a submarine. But you won’t claim that it was in this form that he went into battle? Unlike Rozhdestvensky's ships.
                    By the way, most of Seydlitz's troubles were caused by a torpedo from a British destroyer that hit below the armor belt. This is not the same as the holes from shells above the flooded armor belt from which Oslyabya sank.

                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And he didn’t leave at full displacement. In order for it to go under water (0,76 m), it was necessary to overload the battleship by 1900 tons. However, a day before Tsushima it was overloaded much more

                    Which confirms Togo’s concern for his ships, he did not send “submarines” into battle. If the armor belt is above the water, then the basic protection requirements have been met. What happened there a day before the battle doesn’t really matter. The main thing is how they went into battle.
                    For those "who are in the know", I'll repeat - that's why Togo kept coal in bags. That way you can throw it away faster.
                    1. 0
                      18 August 2024 19: 27
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      But you won’t claim that it was in this form that he went into battle?

                      I will assert that you, with my statement
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Full displacement is the limit after which the ship will sink.

                      Once again they made people laugh.
                2. +1
                  17 August 2024 01: 27
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  There is not a single fact confirming overload Japanese armadillos so much so that the armor belt goes into the water.

                  Similarly, “there is not a single fact confirming overload” Russian "armadillos so large that the armor belt goes into the water."
                  Or do you have photographs confirming this hypothesis?

                  You will put Kostenko’s words on the table, and I will respond with the official report of the English naval attache, Captain Jackson (it will be “Eagle” vs Mikasa).

                  However, we have photo fact, which in one fell swoop sweeps all the speculations of the sect of “Witnesses of the overload of Russian battleships” off the table.
                  Here is the bow end of the Eagle, photograph taken May 15, 1905.
                  Attention, the question.
                  How did the battleship lighten itself to such an extent? After all, according to Kostenko, on the morning of May 14, due to the alleged overload of the ship, the bow torpedo tube allegedly completely went under water.
                  There is one of two things here - either the photo is lying, or Kostenko is a failed regicide.
                  1. +2
                    17 August 2024 01: 48
                    Valentine, good afternoon!
                    there is not a single fact confirming the overload of "Russian" battleships so much that the armor belt went into the water

                    There is a report from Packinham, which indicates the Eagle's draft at the time of arrival in Maizuru. And he confirms Kostenko’s words.
                    when the ship entered Mysuru, her draft was 27 feet 6 inches at the stem, and 29 feet 4 inches at the stern. At this point the ship was fairly light, but the algae growing heavily at least 2 feet above her present waterline showed the depth to which the hull must have been submerged for many previous weeks. As could be seen, the stern torpedo tube was half under water, and the bow tube protruded only a few inches from the water. The lower armor belt was visible only in its bow; at the stern it was below the water level. With the "waterline" indicated by seaweed, the upper armor belt could not rise above the water more than 15 inches at the stern, although it rose somewhat more at the stem. When the Eagle went into action, it must have been sitting in the water somewhere between these last drafts and thus exposed to a wind strong enough to create high seas along its sides, a ship whose waist armor was sunk so deep , was deprived of many of the benefits of waterline protection


                    in response - the official report of the English naval attache Captain Jackson

                    Jackson's report on the Battle of Tsushima said nothing about the overload of Japanese battleships.

                    How did the armadillo lighten up to such an extent?

                    Firstly, in order to appeal to a photo, you need to know exactly when it was taken.
                    Secondly, in order to talk about the size of the overload, it is necessary to know the recess not only at the bow, but also at the stern.
                    1. +1
                      17 August 2024 01: 58
                      Hello, Alexey!

                      Quote: rytik32
                      There is a report from Packinham, which indicates the Eagle's draft at the time of arrival in Maizuru.

                      Great, but the Eagle was supposedly overloaded in the morning 14 May, and he arrived in Maizuru at noon 30 May.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Jackson's report on the Battle of Tsushima said nothing about the overload of Japanese battleships.

                      It's nothing. But he saw and reported to his superiors to what extent Mikasa was overloaded shortly before the Battle of Tsushima.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Firstly, in order to appeal to a photo, you need to know exactly when it was taken.

                      The date is indicated in my comment.
                      The photograph was taken from the bridge of the battleship Asahi by the British naval attache.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Secondly, in order to talk about the size of the overload, it is necessary to know the recess not only at the bow, but also at the stern.

                      It's close to an even keel.
                      1. +1
                        17 August 2024 09: 59
                        allegedly overloaded "Eagle" was on the morning of May 14, and it arrived in Maizuru at noon on May 30

                        Valentin, you are comparing dates according to the old and new styles.

                        to what extent was Mikasa overloaded shortly before the Battle of Tsushima

                        Let me remind you that in order to place an excess of 1000 tons of coal at Borodino, it was necessary to fill many rooms, including one boiler room and the entire 75-mm battery. At Mikas there was physically no place to store even an extra 1000 tons of coal.
                        Therefore, either the Mikasa had a list (in circulation or was deliberately banked) or it was just a figure of speech.
                        The photograph was taken from the bridge of the battleship Asahi by the British naval attaché

                        This photograph appears in a famous Japanese photo album, but without any indication of the author. It was unlikely that it was an Englishman.
                        let's believe our own eyes

                        There is a second, adjacent photograph from the same album, where the bow TA of the "Eagle" barely protrudes above the water.
                      2. +2
                        17 August 2024 10: 38
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There is a second, adjacent photograph from the same album, where the bow TA of the "Eagle" barely protrudes above the water.

                        Alexey, in this photo he is by no means barely protruding above the water
                      3. +1
                        18 August 2024 02: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        in this photo he is by no means barely protruding above the water

                        If the facts contradict the theory, so much the worse for the facts.
                        laughing
                      4. 0
                        18 August 2024 02: 19
                        Hello, Alexey!
                        Quote: rytik32
                        you are comparing dates according to the old and new styles.

                        This does not change the essence of the matter; the difference of three days remains.

                        Quote: rytik32
                        In order to place the excess 1000 tons of coal at Borodino, it was necessary to fill many rooms, including one boiler room and the entire 75-mm battery. At Mikas there was physically no place to store even an extra 1000 tons of coal

                        From your words it follows that at Mikasa, unlike the Borodino team, there were not many premises in which coal could be stored.
                        Doesn't this seem strange to you?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        or "Mikasa" had a roll (in circulation or specially tilted)

                        Let's go to the primary source, i.e. the report of Captain T. Jackson.
                        At 5 pm the Mikasa went up harbor. She had a large amount of coal on the upper deck, and was very deep in the water, the heels all her torpedo net booms being submerged.

                        Approximate translation.
                        At 17:00 "Mikasa" entered the harbor. It had a large amount of coal on the upper deck and sat very deep in the water, so that the heels of the poles of the mine nets were completely submerged in the water.

                        Thus, versions with circulation and inclination are eliminated.

                        Quote: rytik32
                        or this was just a figure of speech.

                        In what sense ?
                        The captain is a fabulist, and a naval attache.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        This photograph appears in a famous Japanese photo album, but without any indication of the author. It was unlikely that it was an Englishman.

                        About ten years ago, I first saw this photo on a Japanese blog. The blog author indicated that the photo was taken by Packingham, provided details, and also posted a photo of Packingham and the Asahi commander standing next to each other.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There is a second, adjacent photograph from the same album, where the bow TA of the "Eagle" barely protrudes above the water.

                        I'm afraid you got carried away. Take a look at the photo again.
                        Yes, I am tormented by vague doubts: is there any retouching there? It would be nice to analyze the source...
                        Quote: rytik32
                        the photo is dated May 28 (if there is no error in the dating)
                        .
                        Look at the photo carefully, dear colleague, and you will understand that the date indicated is correct.
                        By the way, when was the photo you posted taken?
                      5. 0
                        18 August 2024 10: 40
                        there were not many rooms in which coal could be stored

                        There were premises, but if coal was placed in them, the Mikasa turned from a warship into a transport. No one would place coal in the boiler room or battery.

                        Let's go to the source

                        You distorted it a little. Jackson did not write the word "net".

                        Thus, versions with circulation and inclination are eliminated

                        Why? Jackson saw the Mikasa from both sides?
                        Second point. Why didn't Jackson write the heels all her torpedo [net] booms was submerged?
                        being submerged carries a slightly different connotation of temporal duration

                        In what sense ?
                        The captain is a fabulist, and a naval attache


                        On May 26, Jackson wrote:
                        the glass was falling all day

                        This is not an official writing style at all.

                        It would be nice to analyze the source

                        https://disk.yandex.ru/d/Q0tVbAp0hcQdsg
                        The same photo was posted on Tsushima, but in better quality and, apparently, from another Japanese album.

                        By the way, when was the photo you posted taken?

                        The signature is present.
                        But in those days, many photographs had erroneous captions.
                      6. 0
                        18 August 2024 11: 52
                        the heels all her torpedo [net] booms was submerged ?

                        of course were submerged
                    2. +1
                      17 August 2024 02: 45
                      Quote: rytik32
                      There is a report from Packinham, which indicates the Eagle's draft at the time of arrival in Maizuru. And he confirms Kostenko’s words.
                      when the ship entered Mysuru, her draft was 27 feet 6 inches at the stem, and 29 feet 4 inches at the stern. As could be seen, the stern torpedo tube was half under water, and the bow tube protruded only a few inches from the water

                      Dear colleague, let us believe our own eyes, and not the words of Pakenham and Kostenko.
                      By the way, under the photo there is a shooting date:
                      明治38年 5月28日
                      According to the old style 15 May 1905 year.
                    3. +2
                      17 August 2024 09: 17
                      Good afternoon.
                      Firstly, in order to appeal to a photo, you need to know exactly when it was taken.
                      Secondly, in order to talk about the size of the overload, it is necessary to know the recess not only at the bow, but also at the stern.

                      Dear Alexey, sometimes photos can be deceiving and this can lead to erroneous conclusions. Therefore, as you correctly noted, it is better to look at the reports. On large military ships, especially those with an armor belt, "construction des water-ballasts" was used. In order to determine what the overload was, it is necessary to know how much water was in these tanks before the battle. The Japanese pumped out water from the ballast tanks after the battle in order to bring the battleship "Orel" to the port without problems. Water entered the hull of the "Orel" through the shell-damaged plating, there was nowhere to escape from the waves in the open sea. The scan shows the location of the "water-ballasts" on French battleships, the location on the "Orel" needs to be looked at. I think it was not much different from the location on other battleships.
                      1. +2
                        17 August 2024 10: 08
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Dear Alexey, sometimes a photo can be deceiving and this can lead to erroneous conclusions. Therefore, it is better, as you correctly noted, to consider the reports.

                        It is very difficult to understand where this conclusion comes from. Everything you say boils down to the fact that the Japanese could pump out water from the ballast tanks. They could. True, it’s somehow unclear why our sailors carried it if the ship was overloaded before the battle, but let’s say.
                        However, in this case, the photo should not diverge in any way from the report. It can diverge only in one case - if the Japanese filled the ballast tanks after the photo.
                      2. +2
                        17 August 2024 10: 31
                        it’s somehow unclear why our sailors carried it if the ship was overloaded before the battle

                        All this is in the literature.
                        First, the ZPR ordered at least 400 tons of fresh water.
                        Secondly, Rooms filled the compartments in a checkerboard pattern as an anti-roll system.
                        However, in this case, the photo should not diverge in any way from the report.

                        I posted the second photo above, in which the bow TA barely protrudes above the water.
                        And I remind you once again that you can judge the draft of a ship only if you know the recess both bow and stern.
                      3. +2
                        17 August 2024 10: 35
                        Alexey, all of the above does not refute my thesis
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        However, in this case, the photo should not diverge in any way from the report. It can diverge only in one case - if the Japanese filled the ballast tanks after the photo.
                      4. +1
                        17 August 2024 10: 47
                        Andrey, there are many options.
                        For example, they could specially create a trim to the stern to raise the bow holes as high as possible above the water.
                        Without knowledge of the stern draft, further reasoning is unproductive.
                      5. +2
                        17 August 2024 10: 49
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Andrey, there are many options.

                        Alexey, IMHO there are no options at all. Because Packingham has made it clear
                        Quote: Comrade
                        when the ship entered Mysuru her draft was 27 feet 6 inches at the stem

                        what we don’t see in the photo and what the stern draft cannot relate to
                      6. +1
                        17 August 2024 10: 51
                        what we don’t see in the photo

                        From the above photo it is impossible to determine the draft at all.

                        The draft is determined by the measurements of the depression, which we cannot see.
                        Next, the arithmetic mean between the bow and stern draft is taken and the depression is calculated.
                      7. +2
                        17 August 2024 12: 05
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The draft is determined by the measurements of the depression, which we cannot see.

                        Packingham gave a depression in the stem, which is not confirmed by the photo. Why look for the arithmetic mean here?
                      8. +1
                        17 August 2024 13: 01
                        Packingham gave the recess with the stem on May 30, but the photo is dated May 28 (if there is no error in the dating).
                        So it is not clear how one can refute the other.

                        The photo, by the way, fully confirms Kostenko’s words:

                        Thanks to the consumption of shells, coal, water, oil and objects thrown overboard during the battle, the battleship unloaded up to 800 tons, floated 16", the main armor belt appeared from the water. The mechanisms and steering wheel are in working order, 750 tons of fuel remained.
                      9. +2
                        17 August 2024 13: 12
                        Quote: rytik32
                        So it is not clear how one can refute the other.

                        (shrug) I think it's obvious. If it is reliably known that the bow draft was less than that indicated by Packinham, then there are only 2 options:
                        Or the draft was artificially increased, but in this case, Packinham’s data is not suitable for estimating the ship’s displacement after the battle
                        Or Packinham was mistaken, and then his data, again, are not suitable for estimating the ship’s displacement after the battle
                      10. +1
                        17 August 2024 13: 23
                        Dear Andrey, there is a 3rd option:
                        you are wrong,
                        the draft was not increased,
                        Packinham is not wrong,
                        and the Eagle's trim was slightly adjusted to the stern. And this version is confirmed in Polutov’s translations.
                      11. 0
                        17 August 2024 13: 57
                        I propose to have a further discussion in the thread where you quoted from the old forum :))))) I answered there
                      12. 0
                        17 August 2024 13: 14
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Packingham gave the recess with the stem on May 30, but the photo is dated May 28 (if there is no error in the dating).
                        So it is not clear how one can refute the other.

                        Posted below
                      13. +1
                        17 August 2024 12: 03
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It is very difficult to understand where this conclusion comes from. Everything you say boils down to the fact that the Japanese could pump out water from the ballast tanks. They could. True, it’s somehow unclear why our sailors carried it if the ship was overloaded before the battle, but let’s say.
                        However, in this case, the photo should not diverge in any way from the report. It can diverge only in one case - if the Japanese filled the ballast tanks after the photo.

                        "Water-ballasts" are intended primarily to increase or decrease the ship's draft. If you fill the side corridors (cofferdams) in a “chessboard” pattern, as Alexey wrote about, in any case it is necessary to fill the ballast compartments, since the stability of the ship is impaired and the time to recover from the list increases. It is quite possible that the Japanese pumped out water from the side corridors and partly from the ballast compartments to reduce the draft and trouble-free transportation of the Eagle to the port.
                      14. +2
                        17 August 2024 12: 11
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        It is quite possible that the Japanese pumped out water from the side corridors and partly from the ballast compartments to reduce the draft and trouble-free transportation of the Eagle to the port.

                        Igor, everything is possible. Only one thing is impossible - the Orel could not have different drafts at the same time. And according to your explanations, this is exactly what happens - during the transition, the torpedo tube is high above the water because (insert any reason here), but at the entrance to Maizuru it mysteriously goes under water. This is already some kind of Schrödinger torpedo tube, which is simultaneously above and under water:))))
                      15. +1
                        17 August 2024 12: 36
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Igor, anything is possible. Only one thing is impossible - the Eagle could not have different stem drafts at the same moment in time

                        Why? The ship is damaged after the battle, the sea is not calm. To prevent the ship from burying itself in the waves, it is enough to reduce the amount of water in the bow ballast compartments. I understand that this is just an assumption, in this matter we need documents about what the Japanese did on the Orel during transportation to the port.
                      16. +1
                        17 August 2024 12: 57
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Why? The ship is damaged after the battle, the sea is not calm. To prevent the ship from burying itself in the waves, it is enough to reduce the amount of water in the bow ballast compartments

                        Dear Igor, question No. 1 - why didn’t the Orel crew do this before being captured? Question No. 2 - why did the Japanese “turn everything back” on the approach to Maizuru? It’s not in vain that I write about the Schrödinger torpedo tube - you have it at the crossing over water, and at the entrance to Maizuru - under water, and you don’t see a contradiction here.
                      17. 0
                        17 August 2024 13: 22
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Dear Igor, question No. 1 - why didn’t the Eagle crew do this before being captured? Question No. 2 - why did the Japanese “turn everything back” on the approach to Maizuru? It’s not in vain that I write about the Schrödinger torpedo tube - you have it at the crossing over water, and at the entrance to Maizuru - under water, and you don’t see a contradiction here.

                        Alexey answered your question in the comment below.
                      18. +2
                        17 August 2024 13: 17
                        At the old Tsushima forum, the respected Andrei Polutov posted his translation of Japanese documents on the capture of the "Eagle"
                        https://tsushima.borda.ru/?1-3-0-00000302-000-10001-0

                        I read to another place. And again the situation was saved by Levonchuk, Leonchuk, Olenchuk, something like that, it’s written differently everywhere. The Japanese could not find where there were spare tanks with boiler water, since their water consumption was approximately 1 ton per hour and they decided not to move anywhere until the morning and, if necessary, take water from the escort ships. But Levonchuk and another sailor secured some kind of measuring device and, together with the Japanese, climbed into the spare tanks in the engine room and discovered that there was still a little less than 200 tons in total. Levonchuk explained and showed how to power boilers from them. They turned 5-6 valves and straightened the ship, including trim to the stern, equalized the water in the spare boiler water tanks on both sides (the list arose, among other things, due to the fact that they took coal only from the starboard side). And then Levonchuk showed how to finally straighten the list by taking sea water into the double-bottom space. But the Japanese did not take much, as they considered it dangerous

                        Here there is a direct mention of the presence of trim at the stern and the fact that the Japanese straightened it.
                      19. +2
                        17 August 2024 13: 56
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Here there is a direct mention of the presence of trim at the stern and the fact that the Japanese straightened it.

                        let's read the old forum
                        - Firstly, a captured engine crew was landed on the ship to ensure the transition. Her boss was accompanied from the very beginning and everywhere by the senior engineer, who also escorted her to his cabin and gave her “some notes from his workbook, but it was impossible to understand them.” They installed ship lighting later. In general, the gathering point for both engine teams was immediately determined, and the order for the participation of Russian crew members in the ferry was communicated. The officers did not immediately begin to provide assistance, but the sailors and non-commissioned officers kept watch. There was no resistance or intentional damage.
                        Kostenko: Waking up at dawn, I felt that the ship had received a significant list to starboard. The Japanese were apparently worried. They sounded an alarm, the whole crew ran out onto the poop deck and stood under arms. A destroyer approached, ready to take off its men. The roll reached eight degrees, but stopped there. When the Japanese saw that the ship was no longer falling, they returned to their posts and to the car. After a while they managed to straighten the ship.
                        - The roll began at approximately 3 am. The Japanese and Russians did not leave their posts in the engine room, since there was no reason for this. There is a long and tedious description by the head of the captured machine team, what they did and how they did it, how they set up the equipment, measured the boiler water level and dealt with all sorts of valves and so on.
                        Kostenko: It turned out that the Japanese for a long time could not find a valve from one of the engine kingstons and turned to our bilge. They showed the required seacock, but at the same time opened a valve on the flood pipe connected to the same kingston. When the Japanese opened the Kingston, water not only flowed to the auxiliary refrigerator, but also began to spread through the flood pipe under the decking of the engine room and soon appeared above the decking. The Japanese, not understanding what was happening, ran out of the car, but at the same time closed the Kingston and the flooding stopped by itself. Having calmed down, they started the bilge pump and soon drained the engine room.
                        The Japanese did not run away anywhere, and the main thing is that a certain 2nd class driver (literally) Levonchuk, Leonchuk or something like that - reonchyukokku - helped them in correcting the malfunctions. He and another (last name not specified) helped straighten the ship.

                        That is, we are talking not about May 15, but about May 16, and problems with the roll (and, most likely, trim) arose after the photograph.
                        Thus, we can say that both the roll and trim arose only due to inept control of the ship; the Japanese simply did not know what was there and how. From here follows a simple conclusion - this straightening has nothing to do with our subject of dispute
                      20. +1
                        17 August 2024 14: 20
                        most likely by trim) formed after the photograph

                        Andrey, can you confirm this with something?
                        Alas, I cannot accept that on May 15 there was no trim to the stern.

                        It all comes down to this again: the ship's displacement cannot be determined by the draft of the bow alone.

                        The Eagle's stern trim was present long before the Japanese: on April 15, 1905, it was 1 foot 1 inch.
                      21. +1
                        17 August 2024 17: 54
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Andrey, can you confirm this with something?

                        And what is it for?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Alas, I cannot accept that on May 15 there was no trim to the stern.

                        Maybe he was. Actually, the presence or absence of trim to the stern in this case does not solve or prove anything at all.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        It all again comes down to the fact that the ship’s displacement cannot be determined by the draft of the bow alone.

                        In our case this is not necessary. Preferred, but not necessary.
                        We have a photo from May 15 and it shows the bow torpedo tube much higher than indicated by Packinham. We have a photo after the transition, and there it is the same.
                        And we have a report from Packingham indicating that the bow TA is literally inches from the water. How can you tell him to believe?
                        You claim that the following happened - the trim on the ship was adjusted to the stern, causing the bow to go deep into the water. However, you can only confirm your assumption by providing a link to Polutov.
                        Such a link, according to my IMHO, is not evidence. Already because we were talking about a maximum of 200 tons of water, which were used to correct the list of the ship, and it is directly stated that it was significant. This is obviously not the volume that could straighten the roll and “drown” the nose to the values ​​​​announced by Packingham. It was noted that the trim was “corrected” along the way; this was not the purpose of working with water and redistributing water masses.
                        This picture is typical for the case in which water from the feed containers is poured into the central ones, where such an overflow will have a maximum effect on the roll and will slightly lighten the stern. This could not have had a significant effect on the draft at the bow; here it would be necessary to drive all these 200 tons into the bow tanks, and even that would hardly have helped.
                        To substantiate your version you need:
                        1) Prove that the trim was controlled by pumping water into the nose.
                        2) Prove that this water was taken from the existing cargo of the battleship, and not sea water.
                      22. 0
                        17 August 2024 21: 41
                        To substantiate your version you need:

                        Why do I need to justify a photo that came from nowhere?
                        Let it remain so, a photograph with an unconfirmed dating.

                        This is obviously not the volume that could straighten the roll and “drown” the nose to the values ​​​​announced by Packinham

                        I can calculate the change in trim due to the movement of cargo, but for this I need to know the Orel MCV. But I don't know her. Apparently you know if you make statements so boldly? Please share the source!
                      23. 0
                        18 August 2024 02: 40
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Why do I need to justify a photo that came from nowhere?
                        Let it remain so, a photograph with an unconfirmed dating.

                        Alexey, why get excited?
                        Since you do not trust the caption under the photograph, I suggest that you together analyze the events depicted on it. I assure you, if you put aside your emotions and approach the matter impartially, all your doubts will disappear. Unless, of course, they are fake.
                        There really is May 15, 1905.
                      24. 0
                        18 August 2024 04: 07
                        Why do I need to justify a photo that came from nowhere?

                        I didn't offer this to you.
                        I can calculate the change in trim due to the movement of cargo, but for this I need to know the Orel MCV. But I don't know her.

                        Alexey, before calculating anything, it is necessary to establish the very fact of the existence of the calculation object. You don't have it yet. And to roughly estimate where and from where 200 tons need to be dragged in order to sink the nose from the state in the photo to the “Packingham” level, I think, is quite realistic.
                      25. 0
                        18 August 2024 10: 51
                        And to roughly estimate where and from where 200 tons need to be dragged in order to sink the nose from the state in the photo to the “Packingham” level, I think, is quite realistic

                        Example.
                        Virenius wrote in his report that before passing the Suez Canal on the Oslyab, it was necessary to remove the 4-foot trim to the stern. To do this, they carried 75 10-inch shells into the bow, shoveled 2000 pounds of coal into the bow pits, and placed 4000 pounds of supplies received in Port Said in the bow.
                        I didn’t believe it, I did the calculations, and it turned out that Virenius was not deceiving.

                        With these weights it was quite possible to eliminate a trim of 4 feet.
                        4 feet, Carl!
                        Therefore, I dare to ask you for the source of your knowledge that proves the opposite.
                      26. +1
                        18 August 2024 13: 06
                        Thanks to the future academician Krylov for compiling the unsinkability tables for "Alexander III".
                        So, if you pump 200 tons of water from the aft double-bottom and side compartments (77-87 sp) to the bow (26-32 sp), but the bow trim will increase by approximately 2,35 feet.
                      27. 0
                        18 August 2024 14: 17
                        Quote: rytik32
                        So, if you pump 200 tons of water from the aft double-bottom and side compartments (77-87 sp) to the bow (26-32 sp),

                        What was not done - the roll was corrected, not the trim, the trim was just a consequence of correcting the roll
                        Quote: rytik32
                        but bow trim will increase approximately 2,35 feet.

                        I don't mind at all. But just what is trim? This is the difference between stem and stern draft. You have now moved 200 tons of water from the stern to the bow, which means that, roughly speaking, the stern will float 1,175 feet and the bow will sink the same amount - in which case the trim will change to the 2,35 feet you specified.
                        That is, even if all 200 tons of water (and this is not a fact that all of it was used) were aimed at correcting the trim, and not the roll (which was definitely not the case), then this would lead to the fact that the nose of the Eagle “would have plunged into the water by about 35-36 cm. Which is clearly not enough to consider that upon arrival in Maizuru, its bow TA was “a few inches” from the surface of the water - especially taking into account the fact that during this transition the ship’s displacement decreased more
                      28. 0
                        18 August 2024 16: 08
                        What was not done was the roll, not the trim

                        You're wrong
                        They turned 5-6 valves and straightened the ship, including trim to the stern
                        would be aimed at correcting trim, not roll

                        Roll and trim can be corrected simultaneously

                        Which is clearly not enough to consider that upon arrival in Maizuru his bow TA was “a few inches” from the surface of the water

                        Andrey, again everything is mixed up for you.

                        Let's read Packingham carefully:
                        the design draft bow and stern at full load was 27 feet, but when the ship entered Mysuru her draft was 27 feet 6 inches stem

                        Those. the nose was 6 inches below the design overhead line.
                        Now look where the nose was relative to the design overhead line on May 15th.
                        For clarity, I have highlighted the VL in blue. Well, not by 6, but by about 12 inches (by eye), the bow draft was deeper than the design one.
                      29. +1
                        18 August 2024 17: 00
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You're wrong

                        In this case, Alexey, you are mistaken. I'll try to explain why.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Roll and trim can be corrected simultaneously

                        It's possible, of course. Only the efficiency of straightening the same trim directly depends on the shoulder of the load movement. Simply put, the closer the cargo was to the sternpost, and the further to the stem we move it, the more we will reduce the bow trim. Leverage effect in its purest form.
                        But the same is true for roll. That is, to straighten the roll, it is necessary to pour water into tanks closer to the middle of the ship, where the lever arm will be maximum. It is there that such counter-flooding or transfusion will have the maximum effect. Of course, in this case it is possible to achieve trim leveling, but this effect will be minimal.
                        And vice versa, by leveling the trim, by transferring weight from the stern tanks to the bow tanks, you can also achieve some leveling of the roll, but it is not significant.
                        So, the Japanese eliminated the roll, not the trim.
                        Kostenko: Waking up at dawn, I felt that the ship had received a significant list to starboard. The Japanese were apparently worried. They sounded an alarm, the whole crew ran out onto the poop deck and stood under arms. A destroyer approached, ready to take off its men. The roll reached eight degrees, but stopped there. When the Japanese saw that the ship was no longer falling, they returned to their posts and to the car. After a while they managed to straighten the ship.

                        That's for sure. I don’t think you will argue that the “Eagle” was listing. And you are unlikely to find any mention of the fact that the Japanese were very worried about the trim (it was just within the acceptable range).
                        And then - I can assume that they poured water from the aft tanks into containers in the center of the ship, which maximized the effect of the mass of water on the roll, but at the same time the trim had some effect. However, such an influence, simply due to the principle of leverage, could not possibly correspond to your example of pouring water from the stern into the bow containers. That is, the effect of this overflow was obviously much less than the deepening of the nose by 35-36 cm from your example with Alexander.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Andrey, again everything is mixed up for you.

                        Hmmm... Let's see.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        the design draft bow and stern at full load was 27 feet, but when the ship entered Mysuru her draft was 27 feet 6 inches stem
                        Those. the nose was 6 inches below the design overhead line.

                        No. In the above figure, you take the design draft by the nose at normal loading, and not full. For battleships of the Borodino type, the recess on an even keel should have been not 27, but 26 feet. Accordingly, according to Packingham, it turns out that the ship sat with its nose approximately 46 cm deeper than the design overhead line
                      30. 0
                        18 August 2024 17: 28
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Simply put, the closer the cargo was to the sternpost, and the further to the stem we move it, the more we will reduce the bow trim.

                        There's a typo in the stern, of course. The stern will float up, the bow will go down
                      31. +1
                        18 August 2024 23: 06
                        And then - I can guess

                        Please. there is no need for assumptions when Polutov wrote everything out. At first there was a list due to flooding of the engine room, but all the incoming water was pumped out by turbines. And then the roll and trim were straightened.

                        That is, the effect of this overflow was obviously and much less than the deepening of the nose by 35-36 cm from your example with Alexander

                        In the photo, the level of GVL in the bow is approximately equal to the level of the lower deck. It is 27 feet from the keel. According to Packingham, the Eagle had a bow draft of 30 feet on May 27,5th. Are we arguing over a 0,5 foot draft change on the stem???
                      32. 0
                        19 August 2024 18: 20
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Please. there is no need for assumptions when Polutov wrote everything out.

                        Yes, no problem. My assumptions arose precisely because I do not see this data in Polutov: the fragment you quoted does not contain it. Please tell me exactly which tanks along Polutov the water was redirected to and in what quantities - and I won’t have to guess anything.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        then the roll and trim were straightened.

                        Alexey, have you noticed that we have a Schrodinger trim? According to Polutov, the trim was straightened on May 16, but Pakenham claims that on May 17, when the Orel arrived in Maizuru, it had a trim of 1 foot 10 inches by the stern. How is this possible, in your opinion?
                        My personal opinion is that the trim was not completely straightened, but only in some part. As a matter of fact, I assume that in the case of the example you gave of “Oslyabi” and Suez, “straightening of the trim” should be understood not as “the ship is on an even keel, deepening with the stem = deepening with the sternpost,” but as “the trim is reduced to some acceptable value” .
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Are we arguing over a 0,5 foot draft change on the stem???

                        According to the calculations of Mr. Valentin, on May 15 the bow draught was 8,18 m. According to Pakenham, in Maizuru it was 8,38 m. A difference of 20 cm is a difference in displacement of 420,5 tons, and taking into account that between the photo and Pakenham's observations, the Oryol used up some more coal and water - even more. In my opinion, this is quite an interesting reason for discussion.
                        Not that I really want to delve into the Eagle's overload right now. I just note that the well-known inconsistency of Packingham (the draft of 8,38 m and the TA a few inches above the water do not clash with each other, or the draft was greater, or the TA was higher) and the discrepancy between his data and the previously taken photo clearly indicate that the information of this venerable Englishman in this case are very, very controversial and cannot be considered the ultimate truth.
                      33. 0
                        19 August 2024 22: 00
                        Please tell me which tanks along Polutov the water was redirected to and in what quantities

                        This information is not available

                        According to Polutov, it turns out that on May 16 the trim was straightened

                        Not completely. It is directly written that the Japanese did not take in much sea water.

                        in the case of the example you gave of “Oslyabi” and Suez

                        "Oslyabya" was straightened to an even keel. Otherwise I wouldn't have passed.

                        According to calculations Valentina, it turns out that on May 15 the deepening of the stem was 8,18 m

                        I got 8,23. There is not much difference for fortune telling from a photo.

                        A difference of 20 cm is a difference in displacement of 420,5 tons

                        It is impossible to calculate the displacement just by looking at the recess at one end.

                        draft of 8,38 m and TA a few inches above the water do not clash with each other

                        So this is for different dates. Is it possible that by the time Packingham arrived, the ship had taken on water through cracks and cracks?

                        By the way, Kostenko in Maizuru also paid attention to the draft of the Eagle, and his data differed markedly from Packingham.

                        inconsistency of his data

                        During those two days difference, the Eagle received water through holes and seawalls, pumped it out with pumps, poured it from compartment to compartment, and consumed coal. The draft could change in any way! In any direction and this is understandable.

                        If you need to calculate the overload of the "Eagle", then there is data on the draft as of April 14. We calculate the displacement and determine the overload.
                        We further divide this overload into construction (the value is known), operational from coal (the amount of coal on April 14 is also known and even where it was located) and other operational. Voila!
                      34. 0
                        19 August 2024 22: 32
                        Quote: rytik32
                        This information is not available

                        Then why are you suggesting that I stop speculating?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Not completely. It is directly written that the Japanese did not take in much sea water.

                        Let's read Polutov again
                        And then Levonchuk showed how to finally straighten the list by taking sea water into the double-bottom space. But the Japanese did not take much, as they considered it dangerous

                        I don't see any mention of trim here
                        Quote: rytik32
                        "Oslyabya" was straightened to an even keel. Otherwise I wouldn't have passed.

                        I will not argue.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I got 8,23. There is not much difference for fortune telling from a photo.

                        Valentin used a specialized program to determine the freeboard height, it’s better to ask him
                        Quote: rytik32
                        It is impossible to calculate the displacement just by looking at the recess at one end.

                        Yes, you need to know the trim. However, provided that it remained at the same level - 420,5 t
                        Quote: rytik32
                        So this is for different dates. Is it possible that by the time Packingham arrived, the ship had taken on water through cracks and cracks?

                        Alexey, let's take another look at the report
                        when the ship entered Mysuru, her draft was 27 feet 6 inches at the stem, and 29 feet 4 inches at the stern. At this point the ship was fairly light, but the algae growing heavily at least 2 feet above her present waterline showed the depth to which the hull must have been submerged for many previous weeks. As could be seen, the stern torpedo tube was half under water, and the bow tube protruded only a few inches from the water. The lower armor belt was visible only in its bow; at the stern it was below the water level.

                        I don't understand why you think the dates are different. It seems that from the report it follows that both the precipitation and the comment about TA refer to the same point.
                        If the bow was sitting at 27,5 feet, then the TA couldn't be inches from the water. If the TA was sitting a few inches from the water, then the lower armor belt was under the water, not above it.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        During those two days difference, the Eagle received water through holes and seawalls, pumped it out with pumps, poured it from compartment to compartment, and consumed coal. The draft could change in any way! In any direction and this is understandable.

                        Alexey, I can debate this, but I don’t see the point, since the consequence of this statement is that the data from Packinham’s report are unsuitable for analyzing the overload of the Eagle in the Tsushima battle. Which, in fact, is what I postulated.
                        At the same time, I agree that the photo of the Eagle’s bow on May 15 does not give us comprehensive data about the ship’s overload, since we do not have information about the Eagle’s trim at the time of the photo.
                        I propose to stop here, since continuing the discussion will require us to dig through a lot of information, and as a result we will only be able to present hypotheses of one or another probability. hi
                      35. 0
                        20 August 2024 23: 22
                        Then why are you suggesting that I stop speculating?

                        Polutov clearly wrote that the list, which Kosenko estimated at 8 degrees, was formed due to flooding of the engine room. The issue was resolved by pumping out the water.
                        Another reason for heeling is uneven coal consumption. It was eliminated later by transfusion of water.
                        Valentin used a specialized program

                        I don't trust obscure programs. Photoshop and layering are much more reliable.

                        However, provided that it remained at the same level - 420,5 t

                        A clear example of how not to use such a condition.
                        Drill report of the commander of the 1st rank cruiser "Vladimir Monomakh" April 27, 1905
                        Deepening stern-stem 26 f 11 d ... stem 18 f 11 d
                        Trim 8 feet!!!

                        And ships became even on an even keel in only three cases:
                        Suez Passage,
                        entering the dock,
                        sea ​​trials (and not always)

                        It seems that from the report it follows that both the precipitation and the comment about TA refer to the same moment

                        No way. Position of TA, algae, etc. Packingham observed in person on June 1st.

                        that the data from Packingham’s report are unsuitable for analyzing the overload of the Eagle in the Battle of Tsushima

                        I already suggested that you take the data for April 14th. Before the battle, no one specially unloaded the Eagle.
                      36. 0
                        19 August 2024 22: 26
                        Andrey, a question on a different topic.
                        Which one did you use for the Harvey armor of the Japanese battleships?
                      37. +1
                        19 August 2024 22: 36
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Which one did you use for the Harvey armor of the Japanese battleships?

                        For “Fuji” and “Yashima” I plan to take K = 1825, for later ones - 2100
                      38. 0
                        20 August 2024 23: 06
                        Thank you!

                        Was the penetration of coal calculated using the Berezan formula? What K did you use for coal?
                      39. +1
                        18 August 2024 02: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        We have a photo from May 15 and it shows the bow torpedo tube much higher than indicated by Packinham. We have a photo after the transition, and there it is the same.

                        Here is another photo from the nose, dear Andrey.
                        It turns out that it was not for nothing that Kolya Passer-by scolded Packingham for inaccuracy :-)
                      40. +1
                        18 August 2024 10: 58
                        Here's another photo from the nose.

                        One might be curious, was this photo taken after coal, shells and other supplies were unloaded from the Eagle?
                      41. 0
                        19 August 2024 02: 11
                        Hello, Alexey!

                        Quote: rytik32
                        One might be curious, was this photo taken after coal, shells and other supplies were unloaded from the Eagle?

                        I only know the time when this small photo shoot was done on the Orel, who the photographer was, and for whom he took the photographs (on Tsushima these photographs are relatively recent; much earlier they appeared, along with an accompanying caption, on another site).
                        If you know when the Japanese
                        unloaded coal, shells and other supplies

                        write. Then we will get the answer to your question.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There were premises, but if coal was placed in them, the Mikasa turned from a warship into a transport. No one would place coal in the boiler room or battery.

                        You wrote above that the Orel was filled with coal
                        one boiler room and the entire 75 mm battery

                        What prevented the Japanese from doing the same, or the 75-mm guns on the "Eagle" did not fire, and the group of boilers was turned off because the coal was in the way?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You distorted it a little. Jackson did not write the word "net".

                        Since the original source is “distorted”, the cards are in your hands. Make and present your version of the translation.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Why so?

                        I will answer when you explain how the inclining of a ship heading into the harbor is done?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Why didn't Jackson write the heels all her torpedo [net] booms was submerged?

                        Dear colleague, I apologize if there is something wrong with the translation. I see that your English will be better than mine, so please make a normal translation. Then we will finally know what went underwater on Mikasa? [i] [/ i]?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        https://disk.yandex.ru/d/Q0tVbAp0hcQdsg
                        The same photo was posted on Tsushima, but in better quality and, apparently, from another Japanese album.

                        If you don’t mind, could you please direct me where on the website I can look for this photo? In the "Photos" section, if you open the photos of "Eagle", it is not there.
                        Thank you very much in advance!
                      42. 0
                        19 August 2024 07: 50
                        Good afternoon, Valentin.
                        If you know

                        Unfortunately, I don't know the dates.

                        What prevented the Japanese from doing the same, or the 75-mm guns on the "Eagle" did not fire, and the group of boilers was turned off because the coal was in the way?

                        The last time the Orel battery was filled was in March, in the Indian Ocean. Further, the battery was not filled with coal due to the need to have guns ready for battle.

                        what went underwater on Mikasa?


                        It had a large amount of coal on the upper deck and sat very deep in the water, so that all the heels of the mine net poles dived in water

                        I will answer when you explain how the inclining of a ship heading into the harbor is done?

                        Why does it have to be “going”? It is impossible to clearly understand from Jackson’s text whether the heels of the poles sank while walking or after he arrived.

                        Where can I find this photo on the website?

                        There is a very similar photo
                        https://tsushima.su/uploads/photoarhiv/ships/russia/epoch_bron/ebr/orel/photo/10.jpg
                        But now I looked carefully - it’s not the same thing.
                      43. 0
                        20 August 2024 01: 43
                        Hello, Alexey!
                        Quote: rytik32

                        Unfortunately, I don't know the dates.

                        The last and penultimate photographs in the folder “Squadron battleship “Eagle””, as well as two or three more, were taken by an American journalist who promptly arrived on the ship a couple of days after the “Eagle” arrived in Maizuru.
                        As you can see in the photo, two boats are moored to the left side of the battleship, and the ship itself looks deserted. Two lonely figures are visible near the bow tower and in the stern area. Perhaps sentries.
                        All this suggests that at the time of filming, work on unloading coal and ammunition had not yet begun.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There is a very similar photo

                        This is the one from which I took a fragment of the nasal tip to show you.
                      44. 0
                        20 August 2024 23: 05
                        were made by an American journalist who promptly arrived on the ship a couple of days after the Eagle arrived in Maizuru

                        Can you tell me where these photos were published? Perhaps there is a description of the damage nearby...

                        All this suggests

                        I see a large amount of work already done:
                        they removed a piece of the trunk, protection from the berths and cables, scaffolding is already on board
                      45. 0
                        20 August 2024 23: 44
                        Hello, Alexey!
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Can you tell me where these photos were published? Perhaps there is a description of the damage nearby...

                        It's been a long time and I don't remember the site, I came across it by accident. I saved the photos right away, and there is a link somewhere.
                        There was no description of the damage; this is not a technical site. It was only said that, supposedly, the photo archive of such and such a journalist, who visited the Eagle a couple of days after the latter’s arrival in Japan, was put on public display.
                        For what I bought, for what I sold.

                        Quote: rytik32
                        I see a large amount of work already done:
                        they removed a piece of the trunk, protection from the berths and cables, scaffolding is already on board

                        I don’t presume to judge the fragment of the barrel. The photographs were taken from a boat, so the place where he lay is not visible. By the way, the Japanese are concerned about eliminating the nose decoration.
                        We're talking about the last two photos.
                      46. 0
                        21 August 2024 01: 59
                        The bow end of the "Eagle" during the completion period, pay attention to the draft. Coal and ammunition have not yet been loaded, boiler water, etc., most likely, too. When the Japanese unloaded the Eagle, the draft should have been similar to this.
                      47. +2
                        21 August 2024 04: 48
                        Quote: Comrade
                        The bow end of the "Eagle" during the completion period, pay attention to the draft. Coal and ammunition have not yet been loaded, boiler water, etc., most likely, too. When the Japanese unloaded the Eagle, the draft should have been similar to this.

                        In the background is the boathouse in St. Petersburg, which means that part of the armored belt is not on the ship, because... The slabs were installed in Kronstadt due to the shallow depth of the canal. And during the completion of construction in Kronstadt, many metal structures were installed and many additional cargoes were loaded, not counting those you listed.
                      48. 0
                        22 August 2024 01: 26
                        Hello, Yura!
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        part of the armor belt is not on the ship

                        That's right, about half of the upper armor belt plates are not installed on the starboard side. The bottom one is completely standing.

                        If the picture is similar on the left side, then after installing the missing slabs of the upper belt of the Orel’s sediment, it will increase by a maximum of six inches.
                        Rationale:
                        The upper armor belt of the "Tsesarevich" weighed 663,40 tons; on the "Borodinets" it could weigh ten percent less.
                        If you have the exact number, write it down.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        during completion in Kronstadt, many metal structures were installed and a lot of additional cargo was loaded

                        Kostenko writes that at night after the battle a lot was thrown overboard. And the Japanese not only removed ammunition and coal.
                      49. 0
                        22 August 2024 15: 16
                        then after installing the missing upper chord slabs, the Eagle's settlement will increase by a maximum of six inches.

                        In Kronstadt, they loaded it so that water poured through the holes for the belt fastening bolts (and there were still no plates themselves.)
                      50. 0
                        23 August 2024 01: 19
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        In Kronstadt, they loaded it so that water poured through the holes for the belt fastening bolts (and there were still no plates themselves.)

                        It happens.
                        Look, here is the draft of the "Eagle" during the imperial review, September 26, 1904.
                        And here is the sediment of the "Eagle" after the Battle of Tsushima, at the place of capitulation.
                      51. 0
                        23 August 2024 15: 13
                        Quote: Comrade
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        In Kronstadt, they loaded it so that water poured through the holes for the belt fastening bolts (and there were still no plates themselves.)

                        It happens.
                        Look, here is the draft of the "Eagle" during the imperial review, September 26, 1904.
                        And here is the sediment of the "Eagle" after the Battle of Tsushima, at the place of capitulation.

                        I already wrote to you a long time ago that there is a wave bottom at the bow and a trim to the stern.
                      52. 0
                        23 August 2024 16: 38
                        I already wrote to you a long time ago that there is a wave bottom at the bow and a trim to the stern.

                        Is this a historical fact, or your guess?
                      53. 0
                        23 August 2024 16: 41
                        The fact that the bow tip is located at the bottom of the wave is a historical fact, clearly visible in the photo you posted, and the trim is an assumption based on the same photo, because he is not so clearly visible.
                      54. 0
                        24 August 2024 01: 59
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        the nasal tip is located at the base of the wave, a historical fact clearly visible in the photograph you posted,

                        Where do you think the crest of the wave is?
                      55. 0
                        24 August 2024 09: 14
                        In the photo, not a classic wave, but a swell. Therefore, the ridge is smeared along the side (like the sole), but it is to the right of the nasal tip and if you look closely, you can clearly see, along the body, the periodicity of the ridge/hollow (sole).
                      56. 0
                        17 August 2024 17: 06
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Here there is a direct mention of the presence of trim at the stern and the fact that the Japanese straightened it.

                        The design features of ships are an interesting topic and provide answers to many questions.
                      57. +1
                        18 August 2024 11: 01
                        Absolutely right, Igor.
                        The coal pits are located so that the consumption of coal automatically increases the trim aft.
                        And in the case of the "Eagle", they also used up all the fresh water from the bow compartments.
                      58. 0
                        18 August 2024 12: 54
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Exactly

                        Good afternoon.
                        When the article on bevels of armored decks comes out it will be even more interesting.
                      59. +1
                        17 August 2024 13: 21
                        but at the entrance to Maizuru it mysteriously goes under water

                        Where does the information come from?
                        Packingham writes that he protruded from the water by several inches (meaning the lower edge)

                        which is both above and under water

                        At the same time - on what date?
                      60. +1
                        17 August 2024 10: 33
                        Igor, good afternoon!
                        I think it was not much different from the arrangement on other battleships

                        On the "Eagle" the side corridors were filled with water in a checkerboard pattern: empty opposite full. And they laid large-diameter pipes between them so that the water could be bypassed in an emergency and thus level the tilt.
                  2. +2
                    18 August 2024 18: 20
                    Quote: Comrade
                    Similarly, “there is not a single fact confirming that Russian battleships were overloaded so much that the armor belt went into the water.”

                    You're lying again. In addition to Kostenko, whom you hate so fiercely, there is evidence of overloading of ships with coal and water in the testimony of Nebogaty, Shvede and other officers from different ships of the squadron. And these are not blurry photographs, but official documents filed with a criminal case.

                    The photo you pasted does not have a firmly confirmed date, it could have been taken on May 16-17, already in Japan. Upon arrival, where the Orel's draft was recorded - 28.5 feet of average draft means an overload of 1500 tons, and this is after the Japanese pumped out almost all the water from the double double bottom along the way. And there are photos from Japan too.. Do you see the light stripe at the bottom of the side in the photo below? These are dried seaweed and shells. This was the usual draft of the Orel. And there are also no facts confirming such a radical unloading of the battleship immediately before the battle.
                3. +1
                  17 August 2024 12: 23
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Full displacement is the limit after which the ship will sink.

                  And the Germans, for example, in addition to the full VI, also had “Full Combat”, which the Bismarck had almost 2000 tons of full... And guess what, the battleship didn’t sink.
      2. +2
        15 August 2024 23: 11
        admirals preferred to go into battle with a full supply of coal

        But coal tends to be consumed... And with full pits it will be possible to fight only near the base.
        It’s strange that the Japanese did not provide any protection for such ventilation systems

        This was the norm for world shipbuilding at that time.
        cases known to us

        Just lucky. But Pobeda was unlucky, and the head of the projectile flew through the open hatch for loading coal.

        Continue.

        Our 12-inch armor-piercing shells obviously did not have the ability to penetrate deep into the ship’s hull - in all three cases described above, the explosion followed 2,5-3 m behind the armor plate

        Andrey, the question here is one of distance. The smaller it is, the farther the projectile will explode.

        Here there is a noticeable difference from the domestic 12-mm high-explosive projectile, which pierced 25-mm decks with fragments very well

        Shells of a similar design, with the same explosive. The only difference is that in the case under consideration, the coal “caught” all the fragments.

        the chances of hitting the armored deck at the extremities, in my opinion, are negligible

        If the deck had the shape of a karpas (this is more about cruisers), then there were good chances.

        Andrey, please accept my request to make calculations in the next article. At what distance does a 12-inch projectile penetrate: belt + coal in the upper pit; belt + coal in the upper pit + bevel.
        1. +1
          16 August 2024 12: 29
          Quote: rytik32
          But coal tends to be consumed... And with full pits it will be possible to fight only near the base.

          Well why? If Balakin is right, then on Mikasa the total supply of coal was no less than 1722 tons, and in 1,5 days of the Tsushima battle he used up only 257-odd tons. In this case, obviously, coal was consumed first of all from the pits closest to the boilers, that is, located under the slopes.
          Quote: rytik32
          This was the norm for world shipbuilding at that time.

          Alexey, it seems to me that you are mistaken here. You provided a cross-section of an armored cruiser. I don’t have clear drawings of Japanese ships, but all the available diagrams indicate that the battleships and BRKR had ventilation holes near the chimneys, that is, next to the pipes - in this case, the holes in the armor deck were cut not in the bevels, but in its horizontal part . But I still consider DBKR and EDB
          Quote: rytik32
          Just lucky. But Pobeda was unlucky, and the head of the projectile flew through the open hatch for loading coal.

          Taking into account the ratio of the area of ​​the bevel and the hatches for loading coal, as well as the fact that they are not all and not always open in battle, I think we should say that the Japanese shell was lucky in this case.
          Quote: rytik32
          Andrey, the question here is one of distance. The smaller it is, the farther the projectile will explode.

          This is true, but what is confusing is the approximately equal distance from the place of the explosion from a distance of 35 kbt (firing at the First-Called compartment) to about 27 kbt (firing at Chesma), and Mikasa in Tsushima was hit, perhaps, from an even shorter distance. In addition, the projectile will, in any case, expend energy to overcome the bevel and therefore will not fly far.
          Quote: rytik32
          Shells of a similar design, with the same explosive. The only difference is that in the case under consideration, the coal “caught” all the fragments.

          Alexey, there was no coal on Chesma.
          Quote: rytik32
          If the deck had the shape of a karpas (this is more about cruisers), then there were good chances.

          This, again, applies to armored cruisers, which I do not undertake to consider
          Quote: rytik32
          Andrey, please accept my request to make calculations in the next article.

          It will be dedicated to them. I will present my method using Mikasa as an example, we will discuss all this, and then I will consider everything else.
          1. 0
            16 August 2024 23: 27
            In this case, obviously, coal was consumed first of all from the pits closest to the boilers, that is, located under the slopes

            Coal can be taken into the fireboxes only from the lower pits, and from the upper ones can be poured into the lower ones. There are no options here, but not in the first place.

            You provided a cross-section of an armored cruiser.

            This is Kasuga. 春日 - 3rd and 4th characters on the signature.
            in this case, the holes in the armored deck were not cut in the bevels
            There were also holes in the bevels. At "Mikasa" - for garbage ejectors.

            shootings in Chesma

            Judging by the “black haze”, the shell was filled with thick metal and an unknown type of fuse.

            and Mikasa in Tsushima was hit, perhaps from an even shorter distance

            The closest ship was 5200 or 28 cab.
            But in Tsushima the distances were two times closer.

            Alexey, there was no coal on Chesma

            On "Andrey" the head part weighing 13 kg with a knocked out plug flew 25 fathoms.
            Is this a weak fragmentation effect?

            again, refers to armored cruisers

            And to armored vehicles too.
            I've attached a couple of cuts below.

            It will be dedicated to them

            Keep it up!
            1. +1
              16 August 2024 23: 53
              Quote: rytik32
              There are no options here, but not in the first place.

              What's the difference? :)
              Quote: rytik32
              This is Kasuga. 春日 - 3rd and 4th characters on the signature.

              OK, I don't have his normal patterns. But the rest of the six BRKR and EDB do not see this.
              Quote: rytik32
              There were also holes in the bevels. At "Mikasa" - for garbage ejectors.

              Well, what is the area of ​​these garbage ejectors in relation to the area of ​​the bevels?
              Quote: rytik32
              Judging by the “black haze”, the shell was filled with thick metal and an unknown type of fuse.

              Most likely there was TNT. But the point is that there was 4 kg of it, and it was clearly no weaker than gunpowder or pyroxylin, which could be loaded into a 331,7 kg Dotsushima shell
              Quote: rytik32
              On "Andrey" the head part weighing 13 kg with a knocked out plug flew 25 fathoms.
              Is this a weak fragmentation effect?

              Consider this as nothing at all. Taking into account the fact that the shell only penetrated the armored belt and a light vertical bulkhead. But this fully fits into my thesis - if there is a rupture in a compartment, it is possible to hit the mechanisms in the next compartment along the trajectory of the projectile, if it is not protected by a bevel or armor.
              Quote: rytik32
              I've attached a couple of cuts below.

              Well, it’s there in the horizontal part
              Quote: rytik32

              Keep it up!

              Posted today, will be on the main page next week hi
              In general, everything is complicated with bevels, so I will be damn glad of your constructive criticism of my calculations
              1. 0
                17 August 2024 01: 24
                Well, what is the area of ​​these garbage ejectors in relation to the area of ​​the bevels?

                The area is such that you can’t cover it with a rag.
                The question is not whether a shell will fly there, but that it is enough to damage this or another pipe with shrapnel or a blast wave, and the water will flow down like a waterfall. Like "Oslyabi". And most likely this is at the ends, where the belt is thinner and there is no coal.
                Consider this as nothing at all.

                Did land mines produce larger fragments? Let me remind you, the question is about the fragmentation effect.
                But this fits perfectly into my thesis

                In general, yes. But if there were no serious obstacles, then such fragments flew out through the opposite side.
                Well, it’s there in the horizontal part

                What I mean is that the carapace deck was understood to be up to the overhead line or even higher.
                Posted today

                I look forward to it.
                1. 0
                  17 August 2024 10: 31
                  Quote: rytik32
                  The area is such that you can’t cover it with a rag.

                  Why use a rag? It is possible to “treat” such holes using conventional means. Also, where does the garbage ejector lead? Well, if water floods it, what’s the worst thing that will happen? It is essentially a pump that throws garbage overboard. That is, when it is filled with water, it may not even go into the compartment in which it is installed.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  The question is not whether a shell will fly there, but that it is enough to damage this or another pipe with shrapnel or a blast wave, and the water will flow down like a waterfall. Like "Oslyabi".

                  Oslyaby's problem was not that the water went down, but that its entry could not be localized in one compartment; it spread across the compartments in the bow.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  Did land mines produce larger fragments? Let me remind you, the question is about the fragmentation effect.

                  The question is not about size, but about flight speed. The fragment flew roughly 46 m, that is, its initial speed was no more than 100 m/s. According to de Marr, such a fragment (13 kg, size, say, 152 mm) will pierce a maximum 14,8 sheet of steel
                  Quote: rytik32
                  In general, yes. But if there were no serious obstacles, then such fragments flew out through the opposite side.

                  For high-explosive shells, which allows me to assume that as a result of the explosion of the shell they received greater speed
                  Quote: rytik32
                  What I mean is that the carapace deck was understood to be up to the overhead line or even higher.

                  where it rose high - yes, I agree.
                  1. 0
                    17 August 2024 10: 40
                    It is possible to “treat” such holes using conventional means

                    It won't work. The water pressure and fragments of those same pipes will interfere.

                    where does the garbage ejector lead?

                    The garbage ejector served to remove ash. Those. it went from the boiler rooms up and then overboard.

                    The fragment flew roughly 46 m

                    ... and stuck into the ground with an unknown speed, hardly zero as you assumed
                    1. +1
                      17 August 2024 10: 47
                      Quote: rytik32
                      ... and stuck into the ground with an unknown speed, hardly zero as you assumed

                      Alexey, the formula does not provide for zero speed at the point of impact. It shows when a body thrown horizontally with a certain speed will fall to a given height, I took only a meter. The formula is as follows - distance = initial speed * square root of 2 * height / acceleration of gravity
                      Quote: rytik32
                      It won't work. The water pressure and fragments of those same pipes will interfere.

                      This can be said about any hole. In general, a wooden or some other plug, if it does not completely block it, will reduce the flow of water.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      The garbage ejector served to remove ash. Those. it went from the boiler rooms up and then overboard.

                      And the ejector is a pressure difference pump, that is, as I understand it, it is sealed in the boiler room.
  6. +2
    16 August 2024 02: 07
    Excellent work, dear Andrey, thank you very much!
    Special thanks for the main photo, this is the first time I’ve seen it. Is this the maximum size, or is there more?
    1. +2
      16 August 2024 12: 37
      Thank you very much for your feedback, dear Valentin!
      Quote: Comrade
      Special thanks for the main photo, this is the first time I’ve seen it

      I sent you the one that I have at my disposal so as not to confuse anything
      1. +1
        17 August 2024 01: 34
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I sent you the one that I have at my disposal so as not to confuse anything

        Thank you very much, dear colleague!
  7. +3
    16 August 2024 03: 56
    From all this it is clear that the ship, as a rule, dies from the amount of damage. Each of which is not critical. It is possible to get a golden bullet, but it is very difficult.
    If ours had shot better, the result would have been different.
    1. +1
      16 August 2024 12: 49
      Quote: MCmaximus
      If ours had shot better, the result would have been different.

      As I wrote earlier
      https://topwar.ru/247527-jeffektivnost-otechestvennyh-12-dm-fugasnyh-snarjadov-v-russko-japonskoj-vojne-vyvody.html
      A large number of hits from high-explosive 12-inch shells could not crush the Japanese fleet, even if we take the statistics that are most loyal to us
      And in order to implement the BB, it was necessary to get closer to much smaller distances - we’ll talk about which distances in the next article
      1. 0
        16 August 2024 17: 12
        Then it would be impossible to sink the ship with shells. In WWII, the armor became thicker, the ships were larger, and all sorts of guns were used. And the damage was good.
        1. +1
          16 August 2024 19: 54
          Quote: MCmaximus
          Then it would be impossible to sink a ship with shells

          Of course there was no sinking, but without sinking the Japanese reduced the combat potential of our ships to almost zero. Our shells, alas, could not do this
          1. 0
            17 August 2024 03: 49
            Yes, in general, with equal opponents, if someone did not have problems with ammunition from hits, then no one was sunk. "Kirishima" doesn't count. She is not a rival to Washington. The rest were helped by torpedoes.
            1. +1
              17 August 2024 08: 22
              So how? Our "Oslyabya" and "Alexander" were killed by artillery fire without detonating the ammunition, and "Blücher" and "Lützow" were also killed in WWI.
              1. +1
                17 August 2024 14: 51
                The death of our battleships is a separate issue. We still haven’t figured out what’s in there. And there is a strong construction and operational overload. Let us remember that "Alexander" almost threw itself right during the tests. Some people also blame coal dust. Fires from it and volumetric explosions. In principle, why not. There may be mistakes in the fight for survivability. They are such Guards show-offs.
                "Oslyabya" is clearly poorly built. This was noted then too.
                But the Suvorov, having burned out completely, gave no hint of loss of stability.
                "Blücher" is no match for the British battlecruisers. Even 1 to 1. It’s like they beat Kirishima. "Luttsov" also caught a torpedo. There’s something in my head that I think I got. "Seydlitz" and "Lutzow". Well, it was unlucky that the Invincible, at the cost of itself, was hit in the bow several times with several salvos.
  8. +2
    16 August 2024 08: 30
    Good morning.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing.
    Our 12-inch armor-piercing shells obviously did not have the ability to penetrate deep into the ship’s hull - in all three cases described above, the explosion followed 2,5-3 m behind the armor plate. Accordingly, the explosion usually followed in the compartment located immediately behind the broken slab.

    To penetrate deep into a ship, it is necessary to reduce the combat distance. By 1900, most famous shipbuilders believed that an armor-piercing shell would not be able to reach the engines and boilers. Only large shell fragments would be able to reach. It all depends on what kind of ship is being considered, a battleship, an armored cruiser or an armored deck cruiser. In this case, it is worth considering the totality of hits from armor-piercing and high-explosive shells, and the overall impact on the ship.
    1. +2
      16 August 2024 12: 52
      Quote: 27091965i
      To go deep into the ship you need to reduce the combat distance

      Of course, dear Igor, but there are also nuances here.
      Quote: 27091965i
      By 1900, most renowned shipbuilders believed that an armor-piercing shell would not be able to reach engines and boilers. Only large fragments of shells will be able to fly.

      This is precisely the scenario I am proceeding from - presumably, if a shell explodes after passing a bevel, in a coal pit or in an ammunition transportation corridor, it will have a chance of hitting boilers and cars with fragments.
      1. +1
        16 August 2024 14: 47
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        This is precisely the scenario I am proceeding from - presumably, if a shell explodes after passing a bevel, in a coal pit or in an ammunition transportation corridor, it will have a chance of hitting boilers and cars with fragments.

        Here you need to understand that back in 1888, at the Council of the Admiralty in England, it was decided that the armor and design features of new ships should be such that the enemy could not disable the ship with one hit. RIF armor-piercing shells and fuses were designed for such a task, but everything happened differently.
  9. 0
    20 August 2024 09: 45
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    List it :)

    Read, everything is described, every hit.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Why was this even said?

    Hit statistics can also be interesting to look at.
  10. 0
    20 August 2024 21: 12
    The respected author in this part voiced disappointing conclusions about our Tsushima shells, both armor-piercing and so-called high-explosive. Due to the characteristics of the explosive and fuses, these shells had a clearly insufficient behind-the-armor destructive effect in comparison with the best foreign models of the early 20th century.

    More specifically, the explosive characteristics ensured that 12" Russian shells would rupture behind the plate only when penetrating an armor plate of "modern quality" with a thickness of no more than half a caliber. With a greater thickness of the plate, the projectile would rupture in the process of passing through the armor, and not behind the armor plate.

    Even in the case of a 12" shell exploding behind a thin plate it had pierced (the thickness of the plate was half the caliber of the shell or less), the fuses of the Russian shells of the Naval Department did NOT provide sufficient delay for the shell to explode further than 2,5-3 meters behind the plate. Simply put, the Russian shells exploded in the very first compartment behind the thin plate of the belt without ever penetrating the hull or armor fragments of the slope of the armored deck of the enemy ship behind this plate, therefore they could not hit the vital parts of the enemy armored ship (boilers, engines, ammunition magazines).

    This was also determined by the fact that there was little explosive in the shells, and although there was somewhat more of it in the so-called high-explosive 12" shells than in armor-piercing shells, it was definitely smokeless gunpowder, and not high-explosive explosive. The TNT equivalent of the explosive charge of smokeless gunpowder is estimated at approximately 0,3-0,4.

    According to the testimony of the artillery officer of the battleship Peresvet V.N. Cherkasov and archival research by the respected A.V. Tameev, smokeless gunpowder was also used as explosive in 12" Russian armor-piercing shells.

    In fact, the RIF did not have good 12" armor-piercing shells during the Russo-Japanese War. They had bad 12" armor-piercing shells with hardened warheads and an extremely weak explosive charge of smokeless gunpowder, and bad 12" armor-piercing shells with less hardened warheads (without hardening the warhead) and a slightly weaker explosive charge of smokeless gunpowder. The result was a small number of large but low-velocity fragments that were NOT capable of penetrating even thin deck armor.

    In both cases, the bottom fuse of the shells was not a delay fuse, typical of the fuse of an armor-piercing shell designed to destroy boilers, machines and magazines deep in the hull of a ship.

    The ammunition drama was aggravated by the lack of medium-caliber high-explosive shells (of those calibers, even armor-piercing shells within which could not penetrate even 3-4" of side armor at typical combat distances) comparable in their destructive effect to the enemy's high-explosive shells.

    With such a “cardboard sword,” even brilliant admirals could not have defeated the Japanese in artillery naval battles and battles of the Russo-Japanese War.

    The outcome of the artillery war at sea in 1904-1905 was military-technically predetermined even before it began "... because there was no nail in the forge!" - for the shells of the RIF naval artillery there was no normal phlegmatized high explosive and no delayed-action bottom fuses for armor-piercing shells, and there were no high-explosive shells with a sufficiently high coefficient of filling with high explosive.

    The enemy had exactly the same problem with armor-piercing shells, but he had high-explosive shells with a fairly high content of high-explosive explosives. The enemy relied on these shells in the Tsushima artillery battle. This bet paid off and allowed one of the most unconditional victories in a general battle of the fleets in the entire history of wars at sea.
  11. 0
    20 September 2024 10: 03
    There is one episode that researchers of the effectiveness of Russian "pre-Tsushima" shells for some reason ignore. Of course, it is very poorly described (I have not found anything except Melnikov), and even in the MTC documents of that time, the damage received was of interest almost exclusively from the point of view of the complexity of their repair, and not the effectiveness of the available ammunition. I mean the notorious shooting of the cruiser Ochakov. According to Rafail Mikhailovich, Rostislav fired at Ochakov from the left side from 5-6 cables. The classic of domestic naval philology counted two hits as serious enough to tell about them in a little more detail (in total, 64 holes were counted in Ochakov, mainly from the right side).
    Well, the fact that a 254 mm shell from about 1000 m penetrated the 70 mm slope of the armored deck (not counting everything else) and exploded in the boiler room is not particularly surprising. More "funny" is another hit, which damaged the machine. A 152 mm shell from the left side penetrated the 85 mm glacis of the engine hatch (Russian "Krup", as far as I understand) and exploded, fragments hit the left machine. If we are to believe Titushkin's tables (who missed the 5 KB distance, so we have to "extrapolate"), the Russian Canet 6" shell at such a distance should have had a speed of about 700 m/s and a normal penetration of 120 mm, rather a slight plus. That is, it should have penetrated the first wall (although it was not quite vertical), it definitely could not have penetrated the second wall, and, most likely, given the circumstances (even though Ochakov was an armored deck, there was quite a lot of vertical armor hanging on the artillery there), it was armor-piercing. Rafail Mikhailovich does not write anything about whether the shell exploded immediately after penetrating the glacis, or first hit the opposite wall. I think that the option of a ricochet and the further flight of the shell somewhere far away can be excluded, because the shell clearly exploded not in the engine room itself, but above the engine room, and closer to the right wall (because the right engine room (not damaged). Well, how wide can the engine hatch be on a ship 16,6 m wide? Obviously no more than a third of the width, 5,3-5,4 m. Let me remind you that the shell flew there at 700 m/s, penetrated a little more than half the caliber. After that, I don’t believe that the Brink fuse had a delay at least on the level of the German WWI (0,025 sec). It would be 0,01-0,015 + -.