Discussion about the uselessness of the Airborne Forces in modern warfare. Reform to destroy

193
Discussion about the uselessness of the Airborne Forces in modern warfare. Reform to destroy

Quite unexpectedly for myself I came across a strange discussion in the Russian segment of the Internet. The topic of the discussion surprised me. Are Airborne troops to the modern Russian Armed Forces as a branch of the armed forces. Or the time of landings has passed completely, and it is necessary to concentrate on other types and branches of the Armed Forces that are more necessary in modern warfare.

What surprised me was not that just three years after discussing this topic in the Western media and some closed communities of the American and European military, I note that it was the Russian Airborne Forces that were discussed, without touching on Western units of this type, the topic has already surfaced here.



I was struck by the main postulate of the discussion - during military conflicts, in particular the Northern Military District, it is the Airborne Forces that suffer the most sensitive losses. It's interesting how it turns out. The Airborne Forces and Marines most often “plug holes” in our defense or assault units, and someone still doesn’t understand why there are more losses there than in other units?

Immediately remembered story “orchestra” from the time of their work in the Northern Military District zone. How much blood did journalists and bloggers drink from commanders and fighters of PMCs, asking for an answer to the question about losses. Humanists who do not understand the essence of things in war. “Nobody but us,” the motto of the paratroopers, is quite suitable for the “musicians.” Win where it is impossible to win!

On the other hand, periodically attending the celebration of Airborne Forces Day, as a person from the Soviet era, I also think about the fact that paratroopers, in that, again, Soviet understanding of the word, in the Russian Army there are none left. You look at the flags that veterans bring to the holiday and you see "...(number) ODShB". Airborne assault brigades... And not a single flag with the inscription "...VDD" (division).

I remember meetings of veterans of the Soviet era. "Where? Where were you in school? Do you know this? When I was there, he was the commander of (hereinafter referred to as the unit).” For the entire USSR there were only 7 (seven) divisions and one training division. That’s why the soldiers often crossed paths during their service.

I don’t think that the generals of that time, and many of them went through the school of the Great Patriotic War, including the commander of the army, General Margelov, would simply have considered such a tiny number of paratroopers sufficient for the defense of a huge country.

It’s just that at that time they had not yet forgotten the main principle of the formation of such compounds, which, alas, is completely forgotten today. Units and formations of the Airborne Forces should be used to perform only those tasks that cannot be effectively accomplished by other forces and means. As they say, read the Charter! Others can't, but these can!

Well, this is not infantry! Although in the minds of our generals this is precisely well-trained infantry! This also applies to the Marines, by the way. It's the same there. There is some river in the area of ​​operations of the formation or association, let's throw the Marines there. They are accustomed to the water... And elite naval paratroopers go to the river bank to defend or take reaches and islands.

Airborne Forces have not shown their effectiveness in waging wars


The main argument of supporters of the reform (understand - destruction) of the airborne troops is the fact that during their existence the paratroopers have not carried out a single successful operation of a strategic scale. All those operations that were carried out by paratroopers from different countries during the Second World War and later were considered either failed or ineffective.

Indeed, during the existence of the airborne assault, there were no completely successful strategic operations. An exception can be considered the German Operation Mercury (May 20–31, 1941), when Germany landed an airborne assault on the island of Crete. The task was completed, but the landing party suffered huge losses, as did the transport aviation Germans.

It’s interesting, but of the then leaders of European countries, only Hitler correctly understood and formulated the mistakes that other countries made in the future. It was Hitler who realized that the paratroopers, no matter how well they were trained, would not be able to withstand motorized infantry units of even the same size for a long enough time.

Simply because it is impossible to deliver armored vehicles and heavy weapons by air. And against tank or heavy guns with a machine gun you can’t really run around. It was then that Adolf Hitler first spoke in a conversation with General Kurt Student about the inappropriateness of planning such operations in the future. He directly forbade the commander of the paratroopers from even planning such operations.

During the Great Patriotic War, the Soviet army carried out two operations of the same scale. Vyazemskaya (February 18–28, 1942) and Dneprovskaya (September 24–28, 1943). If in the first case we can talk about at least some success, then the second ended in the complete defeat of the paratroopers. The reasons for this effectiveness are the same as during the Mercury. The Germans simply crushed the landing force with tanks and artillery. In fact, we created a cauldron for our parts...

The allies cannot boast of success either. They also accounted for two major landings in 1944. The first (Operation Overlord on June 6) with a combined landing (parachute method and gliders) of two divisions (82nd and 101st) and the second - Market Garden on September 17–27. In terms of the number of personnel, this operation is the largest in the history of parachute landings. And... the biggest landing failure in history. The German infantry scattered the landing force in a little more than a week...

This is, perhaps, all the strategic operations in the world where the parachute method of delivering personnel was used. At first glance, those who advocate “reform” are right. The costs are huge, the losses are huge, the results are doubtful. But this is from the point of view of a combined arms commander, who, unfortunately, is not familiar with the tactics of using airborne forces.

The defeat of the landing force was inherent in the very concept of such strategic operations. The paratroopers were sent to their deaths, knowing full well that the maximum that a landing party could achieve was to divert serious forces from the front for a short time.

For the success of the operation, air supremacy is necessary above all. Complete cover of fighters from the sky. Further, the ability to quickly transfer infantry with armored vehicles and heavy weapons to occupied territories, organize an uninterrupted supply of paratroopers with ammunition and food. And so on...

This was not the case in any of the above cases. The enemy attacked from the air, crushing them with tanks and heavy artillery. Virtually with impunity. Even today, if you compare the PDP and the SME, it becomes clear who will trample whom due to the striking force and power of weapons.

I do not mean the airborne units that are currently operating in the Northern Military District zone. I repeat, they use well-trained, or rather, slightly better trained, infantry. The fighters of these airborne assault forces are excellent attack aircraft, but they have never heard of any landing, and even from an airplane.

By the way, above I wrote about the reasons for the failure of the operation and about some necessary measures that must be ensured for success. But there are two operations that can be called successful. We are talking about Operation Danube, the landing by landing of units of the 7th and 103rd Airborne Forces in Prague and the landing in the same way in December 1979 of the 103rd Airborne Division and 345th Fergana OPDP at airfields in Bagram and Kabul.

In both cases, the enemy did not even have time to utter a word. Even the security did not offer any resistance. Yes, we can say that they landed not by parachute, but by landing. But is it important? Were there any units or formations in the Soviet Army that could repeat this? Again I refer readers to the Charter.

And one more recent example. SVO. True, it is impossible to name the only landing during the entire operation. I mean the landing at the Gostomel airfield in the Kyiv region. Today we have somehow forgotten about this episode of the war. Moreover, today they are talking about some ambiguous results of the landing, as if hinting at the guilt of the paratroopers.

But is this true? The landing party completed its task perfectly. With a small force, the airfield was taken under control, and the possibility of landing transport personnel with equipment and infantry was ensured. The enemy fled, and there was a time head start for the second phase of the operation. So?.. Who is to blame for the fact that this phase did not happen? Paratroopers?

We need to stop producing "well-trained infantry"


The problem of “well-trained infantry” did not appear today or even yesterday. The roots grow from... the Afghan war. It was then that the parachute regiments became infantry. Not the winged one, but the one “well trained”. Why did this happen? The answer, in my opinion, lies in the conditions that existed at the time of the entry of troops into Afghanistan.

Most of the units that were the first to enter Afghanistan had recently been cadred. The minimum number of personnel, the equipment is in storage, which means it is half out of order. The local military registration and enlistment offices did a good job, which in a short period organized the mobilization of personnel and equipment.

Thus, for the first three months in Afghanistan there were military personnel from the nearest villages and paratroopers who took control of Bagram and Kabul. But the situation at that time also contributed to the success of the launch. The locals greeted the Russians quite loyally; there were almost no military clashes. The West was also unprepared for this event.

But pretty soon the first clashes between our military and dushmans began. It was dangerous to let “partisans” into battle, so they had to send troops. Gradually, the personnel of the motorized rifle regiments were replaced by conscripts. But the paratroopers remained and continued to fight as motorized riflemen. “Shaitan-arby” (BMD-1, then 2) were replaced by BMP-1, 2. They were given artillery divisions and other units according to the structure of motorized rifle units. In fact, all that remains is the name and... the demob beret.

Further - worse. During the collapse of the USSR, paratroopers were generally used as internal troops! The stigma of “good infantry” became fatal. And now, in any point of the former USSR, where some kind of tension arises, it is paratroopers who appear. Even when the National Guard was already there.

So is it necessary to reform the Airborne Forces or not?

I think it is necessary to reform the brains of our generals. In the east they say that every donkey wears its own ears. Airborne assault and marines are not motorized rifles. These are specialists of a narrow profile. Piece goods, if you like. Soldiers capable of not only surviving behind enemy lines, but also performing combat missions there.

Motorized riflemen are specialists in classical warfare. To do this, they learn and equip themselves with special tools. A real infantryman, properly trained in a training unit, will never yield to a paratrooper in a battle where good weapons are used. And due to the presence of greater capabilities due to the large number of weapons, it will even surpass it.

Yes, a few words about the DSB.

The appearance of the airborne battalion in the airborne forces is associated with the collapse of the USSR. It was then, during the withdrawal of the 104th Kirovabad division to Ulyanovsk, that it turned into a brigade. Since May 1998, it has been reorganized into the 31st Guards Separate Airborne Brigade, and since January 2006 into the air assault brigade, Order of Kutuzov, 2nd degree. Why the brigade was deprived of the Order of the Red Banner of Battle, I don’t know...

I think that the airborne assault forces have taken their rightful place within the airborne forces. Not the place of the paratroopers, but precisely their place, the assault units of the front line. Having such formations means expanding the capabilities of the Airborne Forces.

And the last.

I've been living for a long time. And I came to the conclusion that any reform in our country is carried out according to the scheme that the communists once voiced in their anthem. “The whole world... we will destroy it to the ground, and then...” I think it’s time to move away from this scheme. Refuse the bad, but keep the good.

How a good housewife behaves with dishes, in contrast to a bad one. She first goes to the store and buys a new thing, and only then throws out the old one, and not vice versa. It's easy to throw it away, but it's hard to find a good new one...
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  1. +9
    10 August 2024 06: 45
    Do the modern Russian Armed Forces need Airborne Forces as a branch of the military?
    It is correctly stated that there will never be a massive release of troops, and what happened before led to large losses and did not bring a strategic result. But various kinds of sabotage units that could operate behind enemy lines are simply necessary!
    1. +1
      10 August 2024 12: 10
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      It is correctly stated that there will never be a massive release of troops
      If the country has leadership with its head, then there will be emissions. Let's take the events in the Kursk region. Would it be bad if a couple of airborne regiments were thrown out there in time? They didn't transport soldiers in trucks.
      And the role of heavy equipment for the landing should be played by aviation.
      1. +8
        12 August 2024 09: 09
        Let's take the events in the Kursk region. Would it be bad if a couple of airborne regiments were thrown out there in time?
        И battery Patriot would have been demolished ALL transport sides along with the landing force.
        Both we and they are hitting separate tanks in forest plantations - and here crowd transport workers in an area where everyone is on edge. 500℅ what was there and there were Patriots and smaller something and Stingers
        1. -5
          12 August 2024 19: 26
          Quote: your1970
          And the Patriot battery would have demolished ALL the transport sides along with the landing force.
          Why isn't she depressed?
          Quote: your1970
          Both we and they are hitting individual tanks in forested areas - and here is a crowd of transport workers in an area where everyone is on edge
          This is OUR territory.
          1. +2
            12 August 2024 22: 58
            Quote: bk0010
            Why isn't she depressed?
            -exactly why it wasn’t suppressed near Kiev - we can’t get it
            Quote: bk0010
            This is OUR territory.
            - ours. And 100 km inland, 404 is no longer absolutely ours and is not particularly controlled by us. And anything can happen there
      2. +2
        12 August 2024 15: 54
        Quote: bk0010
        Would it be bad if a couple of airborne regiments were thrown out there in time?

        Yes, it's bad. A couple of regiments scattered across the area with one armored unit and one refueling station are disposable troops.
        It is much better to land these troops by landing at the nearest fixed or field airfield. And further strengthen the defense with them.

        We are not talking about abandoning landings altogether. We are talking about making the Airborne Forces not completely parachute-landing, but airmobile - with re-equipment from elite cardboard to SV equipment more suitable for their tasks.
        1. 0
          12 August 2024 19: 27
          Quote: Alexey RA
          It is much better to land these troops by landing at the nearest fixed or field airfield. And further strengthen the defense with them.
          And how long does it take to hobble from there to the right place?
          1. 0
            13 August 2024 11: 58
            By modern standards, 200 kilometers and this does not take into account satellite reconnaissance and ATAKMS!
            And don’t drive in columns (like in a parade), and definitely don’t sit in the back while stopping!
        2. +1
          13 August 2024 15: 35
          In our 39th ODSB in 1985-86. there was talk about such an application: the reconnaissance company selects a place and provides a parachute landing of the airborne assault battalion, after which the rest of the forces land by landing. Our “air carrier” was the Mi-8 and (much less) Mi-6; my only landing on a Mi-26 helicopter. In each training period, jumps from the An-12 were made once, but among the “specialists” only the reconnaissance company and the airborne support company jumped from them.
          And from the command we, the repair company, had this command: in the event of a Great War, we will go into battle on wheels and tracks...
      3. 0
        13 August 2024 12: 54
        That is, the downed Il in those parts is not a reason why it is impossible to send landing troops to be slaughtered from air defense?! Aircraft for a couple of hours of support will not be available for all weather conditions - again, not the same. Compare the number of aircraft that would hang 24 hours by 7 in the sky in 1941-1945, according to production. It’s expensive and there are few attack aircraft and especially transport aircraft to lose. How narrowly and not far away most commentators who seem to have served in the army see and understand.
      4. 0
        18 August 2024 11: 58
        Would it be bad if a couple of airborne regiments were thrown out there in time?

        In general, it’s likely that if there were quick reaction troops, instead of the Airborne Forces, which would be transported to airfields or special sites on Ila, 200 km away, they would quickly unload and they would already be at the front in four hours, and not in two days. At the same time, they could be unloaded, even in Kursk, even in Bryansk, even at the junction of Belarus and Ukraine, of course at a reasonable distance.
    2. 0
      13 August 2024 11: 55
      And for this there is MTR (special operations forces)!
  2. +2
    10 August 2024 06: 48
    Discussion about the uselessness of the Airborne Forces in modern warfare. Reform to destroy

    Reform in the conditions of modern combat is simply necessary.
    How a good housewife behaves with dishes, in contrast to a bad one. She first goes to the store and buys a new thing, and only then throws out the old one, and not vice versa. It's easy to throw it away, but it's hard to find a good new one...

    You can't mend a broken cup!
    * * *
    It is impossible not to use the developments of the Wagner PMC. Small mobile air assault units could be considered. It's a matter of practice, and you need to create it. For too long our armed forces have sat in a ossified state.
    1. +3
      10 August 2024 07: 08
      The author cites several operations as an example. True, he forgets about the numerous German landings in the summer of 1941. Yes, they were partially destroyed, but they caused rustling and panic in our rear. The Airborne Forces are certainly necessary as sabotage and partisans. This was demonstrated in late winter - in the spring of 1942 in the Smolensk region. It was not possible to support them from the front... By the way, we somehow forgot this operation. Sometimes they remember Efremov’s army, but they forgot about those paratroopers, the liberation of Dorogobuzh
      1. +3
        10 August 2024 22: 31
        In the summer of 1941, among this German landing force there were many groups from Brandenburg-800. Sabotage and reconnaissance groups, with the majority of native speakers from the territory in which they work, in enemy uniform. They usually did not participate in conventional hostilities (until the fall of 1944). Pure sabotage and subversive work in the rear. They “worked a lot” in the North Caucasus in 1942, and the subsequent deportation of some peoples was partly their “merit.” But these are not paratroopers in the usual sense.
      2. 0
        12 August 2024 09: 12
        example. Truth forgets about menumbered German landings in the summer of 1941. - very little was sent by parachute. For the most part, these were the advanced units of the Germans who had broken through and, due to their distance from the front line, took up the task of landing
      3. +2
        12 August 2024 15: 59
        Quote from: dmi.pris1
        The author cites several operations as an example. However, he forgets about the numerous German landings in the summer of 1941.

        The most interesting thing is that the Germans did not land as many troops. how many of ours counted. Most of the “German paratroopers” are advanced groups from the motorized units of the Wehrmacht, as well as infantry divisions (formed on the basis of a reconnaissance battalion + a motorized anti-tank division + infantry on rear service trucks). We had a similar situation in the Vistula-Oder - then the advanced infantry detachment in the race to the Oder even overtook the tankers.
      4. +1
        13 August 2024 12: 04
        Was there 100% airspace control in WWII? And air defense with a destruction radius of 400 km?
        And these 2 factors are enough for the funeral of the Airborne Forces, with the exception of the Papuan countries, of course, there the Airborne Forces can still do something!
      5. 0
        17 August 2024 11: 57
        Ale, the 21st century is in the yard, even a fighter will not cross the air defense line, and landing aircraft will not fly up to a distance of 40-300 km (depending on the air defense systems) and this is if the enemy does not have fighter aircraft.
    2. +2
      10 August 2024 07: 28
      For too long our armed forces have sat in a ossified state.

      Question the postulates of military affairs that were taught to generals in our military academies... smile It smells like betrayal.
      They start waving a saber when someone from the outside tries to set their brains in place. request
      1. +2
        10 August 2024 07: 40
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        They start waving a saber when someone from the outside tries to set their brains in place.

        We need to ask more often of those generals who wave their sabers. Some people have it written all over their faces here.
  3. +7
    10 August 2024 06: 48
    .
    “The whole world... we will destroy it to the ground, and then...”
    The author removed one word and the meaning changed. But the line sounded - We will destroy the whole world of VIOLENCE... not just a world, but a world of violence. and it was not only communists who sang it. The Internationale was the anthem of the communist parties, socialists and anarchists, and the author of the text was the French anarchist poet Eugene Potier.
    And I completely agree with the main text of the article, although I served my entire adult life, until retirement, in the Air Force...
    1. 10+
      10 August 2024 09: 27
      hi
      The author removed one word and the meaning changed. But the line sounded - The whole world is VIOLENCE

      One word, but WHAT! Well, how can a modern hack not kick the “hateful commies” on any topic, with or without reason...
      As for the Airborne Forces, their reform is inevitable, just as the reform of all armed forces is inevitable. Time and conditions require change, but the very word “reform” has already been discredited to such an extent by would-be reformers over the past decades that it is associated not with changes/improvements to suit the situation, but with cutting and total destruction.
      Several years ago the Airborne Forces were already discussed here. And looking at all the arguments, one can completely agree that modern airborne forces are more likely to be needed as special forces units than as a branch of the armed forces with a divisional structure, BUT this is not so. Everything is shattered by territorial reality, because Russia is a gigantic country. If any conflict were to occur on any of its outskirts, only airborne units could be immediately transferred there, and this is an axiom. This means that any discussion about the uselessness of large airborne units in the Russian army is pointless.
      1. +2
        11 August 2024 19: 10
        Quote: Doccor18
        I consider any discussion about the uselessness of large airborne units in the Russian army to be meaningless.

        Moreover, the number of Airborne Forces and Marine Marines of the Navy is now increasing, and rightly so. For perfectly trained, highly mobile attack aircraft formations trained to fight in unfamiliar terrain with superior enemy forces. As an integral part of the Rapid Reaction Forces.
        The question is to knock the idea of ​​parachute landing of large forces behind enemy lines along with equipment out of the brains of the parade generals. In a real war, this is impossible and is justified only for exceptional cases and special operations against an enemy that is obviously weak and lacks air defense.
        And since large parachute landings will have to be abandoned in the training of the Airborne Forces, then the emphasis both in armament and in the training itself must be placed on the AIRMOBILE method of landing and rapid deployment using the LANDING method. Leaving parachute landing for reconnaissance and reconnaissance-sabotage groups and units. Therefore, their equipment should not be “cardboard and tin” (for parachute landing), but normal, well protected and balanced (but still floating) - the same as that of our motorized rifle units and formations. Namely: BMP-3M (Dragun\Manul), an armored personnel carrier based on the chassis of this BMP (with a front MTO and a convenient rear ramp), a self-propelled gun on the BMP-3 chassis, a light amphibious airborne tank based on the BMP-3M - Sprut with level protection "Dragoon or Manula, KShM, other vehicles on this chassis, as well as wheeled armored vehicles, but not on the basis of the monstrously expensive Boomerang, but on the basis of the new BTR-82AM with reinforced armor, front MTO and with a rear door/ramp - this is much more reliable and much cheaper. Here it is important to have sufficient VTA capabilities to transport these formations over long distances and ensure their supply to remote theaters of operations. And for this it is necessary to build the Il-76MD90A at a rate of at least 20 units per year. -30 pcs.
        1. 0
          11 August 2024 19: 40
          hi
          And for this it is necessary to build the Il-76MD90A at a rate of at least 20 units. per year. And better - 30-40 pcs.

          Oh dreams, dreams ...
          And since large parachute landings will have to be abandoned in the training of the Airborne Forces, then the emphasis both in armament and in the training itself must be placed on the AIRMOBILE method of landing and rapid deployment using the LANDING method

          The fact is that it is necessary to leave the airborne divisions precisely for the fact that they must be able to land en masse by parachute. And not otherwise, otherwise it will no longer be the Airborne Forces, but the DShD or AMD. And we need airborne divisions so that during a threatened period we can transfer them to any, the most distant corner of the country in the shortest possible time. Even if without equipment and heavy weapons, because (I really hope so) the storage bases for equipment/weapons scattered throughout the country have not yet been optimized... As an example, it is not realistic to deliver six thousand soldiers to the Far East when the operation of the Trans-Siberian railway is disrupted in the shortest possible time, except VTA and Airborne Forces.
          1. 0
            11 August 2024 21: 10
            Quote: Doccor18
            otherwise it will no longer be the Airborne Forces, but the DShD or AMD.

            Airborne Forces are Airborne Forces. And it doesn’t matter in what way they land from the air - by parachute, landing or even by helicopter. As part of the Airborne Forces, both air assault divisions and brigades, and the parachute method of landing (including equipment) must be retained, but for approximately 20% of the total number. The Airborne Forces (and Marine Marines of the Navy) need to be treated as Rapid Deployment Forces - rapid transfer, deployment and entry into battle. But you need to go into battle with normal armored vehicles, and not with cardboard and tin ersatz. BMD-4 and equipment based on it only for 20% - for reconnaissance and sabotage units in each airborne division and brigade. All other forces land and deploy using the landing method. Il-76MD\MD90A makes no difference what to transport - BMD-4 or BMP-3M, but this difference will be very noticeable to fighters in battle.
            Now the number of airborne forces is being increased from 50 to 70 thousand, these are our elite units and formations, and it is simply a crime to send them into battle or transfer them to a remote theater of operations with “cardboard” armored vehicles. Our VTA aircraft are capable of transporting two BMD or two BMP-NoM. So why do something stupid and create a zoo? BMP-3M, self-propelled guns, armored personnel carriers, KShM based on it are much more reliable, and they will cost less to purchase than strange parachute-landing ersatz. Since they are already in the series, rearm the reconnaissance battalions with BMD-4 and calm down.
            Quote: Doccor18
            delivering six thousand soldiers to the Far East in the event of disruption of the Trans-Siberian Railway in the shortest possible time is not realistic in any way, except for the VTA and Airborne Forces.

            That's right. And parachute training cannot be canceled, but the airfield network also needs to be developed.
            Quote: Doccor18
            And for this it is necessary to build the Il-76MD90A at a rate of at least 20 units. per year. And better - 30-40 pcs.

            Oh dreams, dreams ...

            This is a necessity.
            hi
            1. 0
              13 August 2024 15: 40
              cardboard and tin ersatz

              Do indestructible armored vehicles really exist for modern weapons?
              1. 0
                13 August 2024 15: 50
                The point is that the armor of an infantry fighting vehicle must withstand heavy fragments and 30 mm. armor-piercing projectile. BMP-3M with screens from "Kurganets" holds 30mm armor-piercing. a projectile not only to the forehead, but also to the side at a right angle. And this with a mass of 21 tons. And if desired, dynamic protection can also be attached to the BMP-3M armor. This significantly increases survivability compared to even the first versions of the BMP-3, not to mention the BMD-4. Haven’t you seen how they quickly began adding additional armor to both the BMD-4 and the Sprut-SDM-1, depriving them of buoyancy? And why this circus, if there are already BMP-3M “Dragun” and “Manul” (the difference is in the combat module), which hold shrapnel/shells better and do not lose buoyancy. And their mobility is excellent.
        2. -1
          12 August 2024 09: 18
          deployment using the LANDING method. and where do you see, for example, along the border with China LARGE airfields?
          Your opponent wrote above:
          If any conflict were to occur on any of its outskirts, it would be possible to immediately transfer only airborne units there,
          1. +1
            12 August 2024 13: 48
            Quote: your1970
            and where do you see LARGE airfields along the border with China, for example?

            Quote: your1970
            Your opponent wrote above:
            If any conflict were to occur on any of its outskirts, it would be possible to immediately transfer only airborne units there,

            And did I object to him about the need to maintain parachute training? And about parachute-dropped equipment, I wrote that about 20% of the airborne military equipment should be parachute-dropped. At the beginning of the Northern Military District, the number of airborne forces was 50 thousand, but at the end of 2022 it was decided to increase its number to 70 thousand. That is. We will have up to 14 thousand horsepower of the Airborne Forces (20%) using parachute-dropped equipment, and a colleague mentioned the parachute landing of 7000 paratroopers, so such a landing will be possible.
            And in order to transfer large airborne forces to the Far East and to the Chinese border areas, it is necessary to develop an airfield network, which I also wrote about. And both military and civilian. But the Airborne Forces simply need to be re-equipped with NORMAL armored vehicles, because for the entire existence of our Airborne Forces, all major airlifts were precisely the landing method. But you can’t fight against regular motorized infantry, tanks and artillery on soap dishes and tins.
            And as for the lack of airfields, in our country now we have SO MANY “valuable specialists from southern countries, many already with Russian Federation passports, that we can safely mobilize them into a construction battalion and for the construction of airfields, military camps and other military infrastructure. Stop building human settlements, apartments in which no one is buying anymore, stop endlessly re-laying paving slabs and curbs, it’s time to transfer all the blackheads from our cities to construction sites in the fresh air. Or - “suitcase, station, village” Too many blackheaded labor resources in our cities are engaged in non-productive work. labor, but through trade, crime and fighting without rules. Conscription to a construction battalion for 2-3 years is an excellent life school and the benefit of a new homeland for these characters. This is the only way to earn Russian citizenship. All those who disagree - back to the village. Criminal parasites. our Motherland does not need them.
            1. 0
              12 August 2024 14: 27
              As for the lack of airfields, in our country we now have SO MANY “valuable specialists from southern countries, many already with Russian Federation passports, that we can safely mobilize them into a construction battalion and for the construction of airfields, military camps and other military infrastructure
              And then what? Let them build it, but who will take care of it all and maintain it?
              And yes, such airdromes cannot be built near the border - a gift to the enemy, but at a distance they are no longer really needed. Because a mountain of vehicles will be required for the transfer.
              Therefore, such units are needed - but in principle they do not solve the problem of the lack of an army along the border

              Too many black-headed labor resources in our cities are engaged not in productive labor, but in trade, crime and fighting without rules.
              do you want them to bring all this into the army - trade, crime and fighting without rules? However....
              1. +1
                12 August 2024 14: 47
                Quote: your1970
                And then what? Let them build it, but who will take care of it all and maintain it?

                Firstly, some of these airfields can be built as local airports, while others can be used to base transport, patrol and firefighting aircraft, and helicopter regiments. These last ones will come in handy for the transfer of air assault units. And the rest - march-march along the roads. And reserves of fuel, equipment, weapons and ammunition can and should be kept at such airfields, and exercises should be carried out regularly - everything is like in the Normal Army.
                And security units (battalions) should be kept at such airfields. As for how close to the border they should be placed, let them think/discuss at headquarters; of course it’s impossible to be close, but I think at a distance of a daily/day march of mechanized columns, it will be just right.
                In addition, the proposed parachute landing cannot be carried out closely. to the border and the Trans-Siberian Railway, because if the enemy is already there, then he will also have air defense systems. And air cover.
                But with deployed airfields, it is possible to deploy border covering units/formations. And deploy air defense. And the airborne forces of the Airborne Forces will support and strengthen them. The issue must be approached comprehensively. In addition, economic activity is now unfolding in those places - various deposits are being discovered, mining and processing plants are being built, then enterprises for final processing and production of goods from it. New hydroelectric and thermal power plants are being built and assembled. Therefore, there will be cities, the people will catch up - again, the mobresource is local and it’s more fun for the military. Any useful activity needs to be done comprehensively.
                1. 0
                  12 August 2024 15: 01
                  let them think/discuss at headquarters, of course it’s impossible to get close, but I think at a distance of a daily/day march of mechanized columns, it will be just right. The range of drones is unknown to you, China can produce 1000 of them for each airfield
                  1. 0
                    12 August 2024 16: 35
                    Quote: your1970
                    The range of drones is unknown to you, China can produce 1000 of them for each airfield

                    If this happens, then within a matter of hours, instead of China, there will be radioactive ruins and swamps. No paratroopers will attack there. The same applies to NATO - no conventional nonsense, absolute nuclear totalitarianism. This is a long-established axiom.
                    1. 0
                      12 August 2024 18: 45
                      absolute nuclear totalitarianism. This is a long-established axiom.
                      - and why then the Airborne Forces - if in ANYONE case there will be nuclear totalitarianism?
                      1. 0
                        12 August 2024 19: 11
                        Rapid Response Forces (in our case, the Airborne Forces) are needed by any country and in any war. And they are indispensable in local conflicts and for quickly responding to threats.
                        And in the event of a global war, with a nuclear country, when there is a “threat to the very existence of Russia” - only Nuclear Totalitarianism. The whole world is in ruins and nuclear ashes.
                        request There is no other way. There are only 150 million of us (including new territories).
          2. 0
            12 August 2024 16: 03
            Quote: your1970
            deployment using the LANDING method. and where do you see LARGE airfields along the border with China, for example?

            Where there is infrastructure for the enemy to attack. If the PLA climbs through forests and swamps, that’s where it goes, there’s nothing important there anyway.

            And yes, how to solve the issue of supplying paratroopers dropped by parachute? By the Japanese method - “due to the impossibility of a decision, exclude the operation from the plans” (Imphal)?
            1. 0
              12 August 2024 16: 06
              If the PLA climbs through forests and swamps, that’s where it goes, there’s still nothing important there.
              If the BAM is cut in the middle of a remote swamp, will it be considered unimportant?
              1. 0
                12 August 2024 19: 03
                Quote: your1970
                If the BAM is cut in the middle of a remote swamp, will it be considered unimportant?

                So in the middle of a remote swamp It is easier to deliver airborne forces to the enemy along the BAM than to throw them into the forest and swamp. wink
                Fortunately, there is experience - at one time the 7th Guards. dshd has arrived force peace just like a freshly restored piece of iron.
                1. 0
                  13 August 2024 15: 47
                  Reminds me of a joke from the 1970s.
                  Meeting of the Chinese General Staff.
                  — We will cross the border in small groups, two or three. Million. Tanks will support.
                  - What, all four?
                  - Yes, all four! And on top - aviation.
                  — There will be no aviation: the pilot is sick...

                  How things have changed over the course of half a century...
  4. +1
    10 August 2024 06: 51
    It all depends on their use. All troops appeared as they were needed. Each branch of the military should participate where it would be most useful. Jaeger for fighting in the forests, alpine for fighting in the mountains. After all, all troops were not invented from the mind. History itself created them.
    1. 10+
      10 August 2024 07: 35
      The problems of our current army are its extreme small numbers. There is a critical shortage of infantry. Hence the natural attempts to use in this capacity everything that is at least somehow similar to it. This is simply inevitable in such situations.
      1. +5
        10 August 2024 12: 06
        The problems of our current army are its extreme small numbers. There is a critical shortage of infantry.

        + + + + + + + + + +
      2. +4
        10 August 2024 12: 14
        What about communications, aviation, UAVs, high-precision vehicles, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, satellites, etc.? Are there any problems with this? Suvorov wrote that one must fight not with numbers, but with skill. But our main method of warfare at the moment is a frontal assault. There won't be enough army in such situations.
        1. +4
          10 August 2024 12: 28
          No skill will help you spread one division along 100 km of front..
          1. +3
            10 August 2024 12: 39
            Why smear it? You try maneuvers, capturing key points, flank attacks, cutting communications and other smart things. What can we talk about if our war is waged by frontal attacks and squeezing out the enemy? To be honest, I’m scared by our level of troop control. If we really clash with the NATO army, there will be another repetition of 41 years. And I’ll repeat it again. Where are the modern weapons?
            1. +2
              10 August 2024 13: 45
              This is all just wonderful - but someone needs to be assigned to hold the territory and secure the flanks? Put them in oporniks, send them on patrols, etc., etc.? All this requires people, and not a few.
              1. +1
                10 August 2024 13: 53
                Yes, we do. But millions of US soldiers were not needed in Iraq. And this is in Iraq. A country that has nothing in common with the United States either in terms of culture or in terms of family and historical ties. It’s high time to get used to fighting with skill and technology, and not with numbers. We don’t have that many people in the country anymore and the economy is not socialist. It will not allow you to mobilize resources like under the USSR. And time in Ukraine is not working for us now, but against us. Therefore, I now have the most terrible feeling of an impending catastrophe. I hope I'm still wrong.
                1. -1
                  10 August 2024 16: 22
                  Of course you are wrong. What kind of policy does America have, all of them are enemies, slaves and non-humans, their friend is money! And what policy did we declare, there are our brothers, relatives and our native lands! America enters and begins to sweep away everything in its path, sparing no one - there is an enemy! And like us, there are our lands, our houses, our fields, the people are our brothers - this is the principle we fight on. That’s why the Anglo-Saxons reformatted the Ukrainians for themselves, they say, beat everyone, destroy everything - you are meat, and we give you money and weapons from the West! But we don’t want to follow their example, we’re not like that! Although you have to be cruel with, as they say, “brothers”,
                  1. +1
                    13 August 2024 11: 56
                    Well, we are demolishing everything in our path, look at the settlements where the fighting is going on, in some there is literally no stone left unturned
                2. 0
                  12 August 2024 16: 07
                  Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                  Yes, we do. But millions of US soldiers were not needed in Iraq. And this is in Iraq.

                  Let me remind you that, despite all the technical superiority of the United States, they did not have enough personnel for the war in Iraq. We had to massively mobilize the National Guard. 43% of the troops in Iraq and 55% in Afghanistan were from the US NG. A total of 300 NG personnel passed through these countries.
          2. -2
            12 August 2024 09: 22
            No skill will help you spread one division along 100 km of front.. yet this is exactly what is happening now.
            At both sides.
            The offensives are carried out using forces that in WWII would be called “reconnaissance in force”, no more...
  5. +9
    10 August 2024 06: 55
    that any reform in our country is carried out according to the scheme that the communists once voiced in their anthem. “The whole world... we will destroy it to the ground, and then...”
    It was like this: “We will destroy the whole world of violence
    To the foundation, and then we are ours, we will build a new world, Who was nobody will become everything! And one more thing: Enough of sucking blood, vampires, with prison, taxes, poverty! You have all the power, all the blessings of the world, and our right is an empty phrase! All power to the working people! And away with all the parasites! You are your thrones, parasites, on ours they built on their backs...Plant factories, factories, chambers - Everything was created by our labor." (c) When you quote the International, do not forget about the parasites. Especially against the backdrop of the corruption scandal in the Russian Defense Ministry.
    1. -6
      10 August 2024 08: 31
      He who was a nobody will remain a nobody. But if it becomes everyone, then disaster... Which is what happened in the end.
      1. +5
        10 August 2024 09: 21
        But if it becomes everyone, then it’s a disaster.
        ..
        Are you talking about parasites from the Russian Defense Ministry and other parasites?
        1. -2
          12 August 2024 09: 24
          Are you talking about parasites from the Russian Defense Ministry and other parasites?
          -And they were the ones who mediocrely scammed the USSR?
    2. 0
      10 August 2024 14: 25
      The original translation read: “We will tear up the whole world of violence. To the ground, and then we will build ours, we will build a new world...” The author of the translation, in my opinion, is Radishchev. The difference is one word, but the meaning of the phrase is fundamentally different.
      Thanks to the author for the article! I agree with the assessment of the use of airborne forces.
      1. +2
        10 August 2024 19: 29
        The author of the translation, in my opinion, is Radishchev.

        The author of the translation is Kots, Arkady Yakovlevich 1872-1943, Soviet proletarian poet.
  6. +1
    10 August 2024 06: 58
    Units and formations of the Airborne Forces should be used to perform only those tasks that cannot be effectively accomplished by other forces and means. As they say, read the Charter! Others can't, but these can!

    Maybe so, but then the question arises - how often does the need to solve such problems arise? If you involve the landing forces only in their execution, then it turns out that during the war most of the time they simply have nothing to do.
    1. 0
      10 August 2024 08: 57
      Quote: Dart2027
      If you involve the landing force only in their execution, then it turns out that during the war most of the time they simply have nothing to do.

      There will always be work, you can use a crowbar for revenge, tint the grass laughing.
      But seriously, you are wrong. Carrying out garrison service in controlled territory, implementing traffic rules, the role of the “last” and highly mobile reserve (with which we are, as always, tense), and in this case the “weaker” equipment of heavy weapons is offset by the defensive nature of the actions.
      As an example, Japanese paratroopers in WWII. Having “jumped” at the very beginning, they then performed precisely these functions on various islands (where almost everyone died).
      1. +1
        10 August 2024 10: 30
        Quote: Adrey
        Carrying out garrison service in controlled territory, implementing traffic regulations
        For this we need not paratroopers, but Russian Guards.
        Quote: Adrey
        the role of the “last” and highly mobile reserve
        Here yes, but again the question arises - how often is it needed? So it turns out that elite troops are either used as assault infantry, or most of the time they just sit in barracks.
        1. +2
          10 August 2024 10: 43
          Quote: Dart2027
          For this we need not paratroopers, but Russian Guards.

          Are they needed at all, and in such quantities?
          Quote: Dart2027
          Here yes, but again the question arises - how often is it needed?

          Always. Or do you propose not to have reserves at all (they’re messing around, since they’re not on the LBS)? And so as not to be idle, let them do everything suggested above.
          1. 0
            10 August 2024 11: 07
            Quote: Adrey
            Are they needed at all, and in such quantities?

            Internal troops have always been and will always be. The names may be different, but they were also in the USSR.
            Quote: Adrey
            And so as not to be idle, let them do everything suggested above.
            Then who will do their job when they wander off somewhere where they are urgently needed? Reserves are a necessary thing, but an entire branch of the military is overkill.
            1. 0
              10 August 2024 11: 17
              Quote: Dart2027
              Internal troops have always been and will always be. The names may be different, but they were also in the USSR.

              Yes, I'm aware. And not only here. The whole question is in their functionality and quantity.
              Quote: Dart2027
              Then who will do their job when they wander off somewhere where they are urgently needed?

              There will be no time for this when the last reserves are brought into battle. Although, if you think about it, the parts allocated for rest, replenishment and reorganization.
              Quote: Dart2027
              Reserves are a necessary thing, but an entire branch of the military is overkill.

              Why? The question is that this “whole branch of the military” is being bloated out of proportion, to the detriment of ordinary, normal infantry, and the functions of the Airborne Forces have long been lost.
              1. 0
                10 August 2024 12: 11
                Quote: Adrey
                The question is that this “whole branch of the military” is being bloated out of proportion, to the detriment of ordinary, normal infantry, and the functions of the Airborne Forces have long been lost.

                A branch of the military cannot consist of a pair of regiments. It is advisable to create special mobile reserve groups from units that have been withdrawn to the rear for rest and have already restored combat capability, something like duty before being sent to the front line.
                1. 0
                  10 August 2024 12: 22
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  A branch of the military cannot consist of a pair of regiments.

                  It depends on how you look. Due to the heterogeneity of the use of forces (VTA, Airborne Forces), it is advisable to combine them to optimize their use. In terms of numerical strength - with the existing VTA forces, we cannot really use more than ONE airborne division for its intended purpose, + 2 airborne assault divisions (there will still be more helicopters), + a training brigade. So it turns out that the branch of troops is the size of the corps request.
                  For example, how many airborne divisions do Amers have with their dimensionless airborne assault forces? Two, apparently, 82nd and 101st. And strangely enough, they have enough, this is due to their policy of “rabid imperialism.”
                  1. +1
                    10 August 2024 12: 45
                    Quote: Adrey
                    For example, how many airborne divisions do Amers have with their dimensionless airborne assault forces? Two, apparently, 82nd and 101st. And strangely enough, they have enough, this is due to their policy of “rabid imperialism.”

                    In the United States, the Marine Corps is considered the most elite, and this is actually an army within the army.
                    1. 0
                      10 August 2024 13: 12
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      In the United States, the Marine Corps is considered the most elite, and this is actually an army within the army.

                      Let's not jump off the topic of discussing the Airborne Forces.
                      1. +2
                        10 August 2024 14: 23
                        Quote: Adrey
                        jump off the topic of discussion of the Airborne Forces

                        I don't jump off. It’s just that in the USA the most elite and intended for deployment on the territory of other states is the MP, so in principle they do not need large airborne forces.
                      2. 0
                        10 August 2024 14: 29
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        I don't jump off.

                        Well, of course laughing
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        It’s just that in the USA the most elite and intended for deployment on the territory of other states is the MP, so in principle they do not need large airborne forces.

                        Are we having a dialogue now about “elitism” or about the urgency of the Airborne Forces?
                        Then let's make the motorized infantry the "elite"? We are a land power laughing
                      3. +1
                        10 August 2024 14: 36
                        Quote: Adrey
                        Well, of course
                        Don't remember what you're writing?
                        Quote: Adrey
                        For example, how many airborne divisions do Amers have with their dimensionless airborne assault forces? Two, apparently, 82nd and 101st. And strangely enough, they have enough, this is due to their policy of “rabid imperialism.”

                        The Americans simply don’t need large airborne forces in principle. They do it more for prestige - they all have airborne forces and so do we.
                        Quote: Adrey
                        about “elitism” or about the urgency of the Airborne Forces
                        What is the urgency? If there is a landing, then it is intended for landing, otherwise what kind of landing is it? But landing operations in our time are a very rare case. Use them as saboteurs? So there are specialized parts. So it turns out that in the event of war, the Airborne Forces will be retrained as infantry. Well, simply because there is nothing else left.
                      4. 0
                        10 August 2024 15: 20
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Don't remember what you're writing?

                        I remember. That’s why I’m bringing you back into the mainstream of dialogue, you’re our resourceful one. laughing. Either the Amer’s ILC, or “elitism” in the dialogue about the functions of the Airborne Forces.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The Americans simply don’t need large airborne forces in principle. They do it more for prestige - they all have airborne forces and so do we.

                        Oh sure laughing! That’s why they use them always and everywhere and very intensively. They just didn’t inflate them into a “separate branch of the military” with generals and headquarters at the appropriate level. Everything is within the limits of reasonable sufficiency.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        So it turns out that in the event of war, the Airborne Forces will be retrained as infantry. Well, simply because there is nothing else left.

                        So maybe just more normal infantry instead of dysfunctional airborne divisions? And the few that remain will just be a reserve and used for its main purpose when necessary?
                      5. +1
                        10 August 2024 16: 59
                        Quote: Adrey
                        Either the Amer’s ILC, or “elitism” in the dialogue about the functions of the Airborne Forces.
                        You started talking about the USA, and I answered about it. In our country, the Airborne Forces were considered the most elite; they had the Marine Corps. When we needed to send troops outside the USSR, we immediately remembered the Airborne Forces, they have the MP.
                        Quote: Adrey
                        That’s why they use them always and everywhere and very intensively.
                        But every time you read about any actions of the US Armed Forces, for some reason there are MPs or special forces. I didn’t come across anything at all about their airborne forces. That is, maybe they fly somewhere for show, but they don’t play a real role.
                        Quote: Adrey
                        So maybe just more normal infantry instead of dysfunctional airborne divisions?
                        In fact, this is true, the Airborne Forces have been elite infantry units for about 70 years. The original concept of parachute landings has died, due to the development of air defense systems, special forces are engaged in sabotage and reconnaissance, so what remains is ordinary combat. Another thing is that they can be kept as rapid reaction troops, which can be redeployed to the desired area as quickly as possible. But at the same time, they need to be properly armed, landings should be left only as landings from helicopters, otherwise how many people get killed during senseless parachute jumps.
                      6. 0
                        13 August 2024 15: 54
                        how many people get killed during pointless parachute jumps

                        From the formation of the 39th Separate Airborne Brigade in 1979 until my demobilization in 1986, “not a single corpse on the jump.” Just the proper organization of the Airborne Service.
                      7. 0
                        13 August 2024 18: 48
                        Quote: Quzmi4
                        Just the proper organization of the Airborne Service.
                        The organization does not always save you from accidents, but in any case the question remains, “why?”
                      8. 0
                        15 August 2024 11: 58
                        Why do people come to jump at flying clubs with their own money?
                        (Yesterday there was news from Komi: a first-time girl with a partially filled canopy did not deploy the spare tire and died in the hospital.
                        Knowing the current system of preliminary training in flying clubs - capitalism, and here capitalism! - they didn’t teach enough, they didn’t drive it into the subcortex. And what they shouted into her megaphone, she most likely did not hear. The soul took flight...
                        https://yandex.ru/turbo?text=https%3A%2F%2Ffishki.net%2F4686816-zapasku-davaj-zhitelynica-komi-neudachno-prygnula-s-parashju.html&utm_source=aab&platform=desktop
                        )
                        There is something transcendental about it - when you stand with your feet on the open sky. All the show-offs of the paratroopers, and not the show-offs too, come from here.
                      9. 0
                        15 August 2024 18: 48
                        Quote: Quzmi4
                        Why do people come to jump at flying clubs with their own money?
                        People do stupider things, but introducing this as part of combat training and making special airborne equipment for this, which because of this is weaker than full-fledged tanks and self-propelled guns, is not very reasonable.
                      10. 0
                        16 August 2024 14: 00
                        You can, due to poverty, work with one axe, but throw away drills, planes, and needle files, because there are no tasks for them NOW - is it smarter?
                        In any case, it will be more difficult and expensive to destroy and then create from ZERO.
                        About stupid things: until you feel it, you won’t understand. And skydiving is clearly not in the “you don’t have to put gepbmo in your mouth to be sure it’s gepbmo” category.
                      11. 0
                        16 August 2024 16: 50
                        Quote: Quzmi4
                        because there are no tasks for them NOW - is it smarter?

                        If airdropping becomes relevant, it will clearly not be in the foreseeable future. Now elite troops are worse armed than ordinary ones.
                      12. 0
                        12 August 2024 16: 08
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        It’s just that in the USA the most elite and intended for deployment on the territory of other states is the MP

                        They appeared before the reform.
                        Now the Marines have become a highly specialized tool for supporting the actions of the US Navy off the Chinese coast.
                      13. 0
                        12 August 2024 18: 48
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Now the Marines have become a highly specialized tool for supporting the actions of the US Navy off the Chinese coast.

                        Maybe, I don't know.
                  2. -1
                    10 August 2024 16: 46
                    And you compare the strength of the domestic airborne division and these two American ones.
                    1. -1
                      10 August 2024 17: 04
                      Quote: Sergej1972
                      And you compare the strength of the domestic airborne division and these two American ones.

                      Compare. Almost equally. It remains to compare the number of BTA and generals. Can you help?
              2. 0
                10 August 2024 17: 47
                The question is that this “whole branch of the military” is being bloated out of proportion, to the detriment of ordinary, normal infantry, and the functions of the Airborne Forces have long been lost

                It is not inflated, it’s just that the current composition of the VTA is not enough to carry out the landing of existing airborne forces, our level is an operational-tactical landing, and the airborne assault and airborne assault brigade, in fact, should be geared towards tactical landings (helicopters).
                And the infantry just needs to be increased, not to the detriment of the rest
        2. 0
          10 August 2024 12: 13
          Quote: Dart2027
          Here yes, but again the question arises - how often is it needed?
          Well, it would be useful in the Kursk region.
          1. 0
            10 August 2024 12: 16
            Of course, but the SVO has been going on for 2 years already, and during this time there have not been very many such situations.
            1. -1
              10 August 2024 14: 30
              Quote: Dart2027
              Of course, but the SVO has been going on for 2 years already, and during this time there have not been very many such situations.

              Come on!?
    2. -1
      10 August 2024 11: 16
      Maybe so, but then the question arises - how often does the need to solve such problems arise?

      Everything depends on the military-political leadership of the state. If it acts decisively, then the tasks will be for the Airborne Forces, which they must solve according to their profile.
      Again, in war there can be different situations, and it is impossible to exclude the fact that paratroopers can and will act like ordinary infantry, anything can happen. So in any case they won’t be left idle
      1. 0
        10 August 2024 12: 09
        Quote: Sanguinius
        Everything depends on the military-political leadership of the state.

        It all depends on the situation at the front.
        Quote: Sanguinius
        and it is impossible to exclude the fact that paratroopers can and will act like ordinary infantry, anything is possible. So in any case they won’t be left idle

        They won't stay. the problem is that as assault infantry they are used an order of magnitude more often than as landing troops.
        1. 0
          10 August 2024 13: 56
          the problem is that as assault infantry they are used an order of magnitude more often than as landing troops.

          There’s nothing you can do about it, you see the use of the Airborne Forces now based on the situation at the front, but I see it based on the decisions of the military-political leadership of the state. I remember what your opinion is on this matter.
          But, if we want to exclude the use of paratroopers for other purposes, then quite logical measures should be taken. Namely, an increase in the number of ground forces (assault/infantry units). How to ensure this? Here either mobilization, or by all means and means, attracting people to contract on a voluntary basis and forming appropriate formations.
          There will be enough infantry, there will be decisive progress at the front (after all, it is by no means a secret what caused this situation that has developed at the front - this is a lack of people), accordingly there will be both tactical and operational-tactical landings (unfortunately, operational and strategic landings will no longer be able to handle ...few aircraft of the VTA, and the Air Force in general). And the paratroopers themselves, as I said above, will still play in part the role of patching up holes, as a reserve for the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, plans cannot always go like clockwork, and sometimes you have to improvise and act according to the situation, and with what you have .
          1. +1
            10 August 2024 14: 24
            Quote: Sanguinius
            based on the decisions of the military-political leadership of the state

            Well, how exactly should these decisions influence the actions of the army?
            1. 0
              10 August 2024 14: 46
              By setting the tasks of the political leadership to the military, they influence the actions of the army.
              1. 0
                10 August 2024 16: 45
                Quote: Sanguinius
                The assigned tasks of the political leadership to the military
                Can I be more specific?
                1. 0
                  10 August 2024 17: 14
                  Much more specific then. There’s really nothing more to specify
                  1. 0
                    10 August 2024 18: 57
                    Quote: Sanguinius
                    Much more specific then.

                    What exactly should it look like and what tasks are meant.
                    1. 0
                      10 August 2024 19: 31
                      what tasks are meant.

                      The objectives that the political leadership plans to achieve before taking part in the conflict.
                      1. 0
                        10 August 2024 20: 28
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        which the political leadership plans to achieve before taking part in the conflict

                        Well, what does the landing have to do with it? “Before taking part in the conflict” - does this mean before the start of hostilities or what? And what tasks will the landing force perform?
          2. 0
            12 August 2024 09: 30
            Unfortunately, we won’t be able to handle operational and strategic landings anymore... there are few military air forces, and the Air Force in general). you understand perfectly well that strategic targets are covered by air defense to the maximum
  7. +2
    10 August 2024 07: 01
    The world's military (and oligarchic) ​​leadership planning future wars must think about whether there is a place for airborne forces in 21st century wars (and how much it costs laughing ).
    The air defense systems of the future will most likely be even more advanced - they can shoot and see further, more precisely, but they themselves will be smaller and therefore less vulnerable. This can hardly be said about landing aircraft. This means that in order to use the Airborne Forces, it is necessary to ensure that all air defense systems on the entire front are destroyed, there are not even “sleeping” ones left, and there will be no time to deliver new ones until the landing force lands. Is this possible? What if the enemy also has fighters? At least a couple of pieces. And they have long-range explosive missiles, 4 on each. Theoretically, this is minus 8 aircraft with landing forces for one flight of a fighter flight.
    It will be difficult to use airborne forces in its classical form.
    But in the “Vietnamese” “Afghan” version, perhaps. A helicopter takes little, flies low (if necessary), and there can be many of them; helicopter landings can be dispersed over time and place, find a “window” at the enemy air defense system and launch them. Heavy helicopters can also transport equipment. In the future, helicopters may be night-time, low-noise and stealthy. Perhaps these will not be classic helicopters, but something similar, but better, much faster.
    1. +1
      10 August 2024 08: 05
      The Americans have Osprey tiltrotors. At one time they were touched by them, then they stopped. Accident rate. But as an idea it just fits your thoughts. On the other hand, carrying capacity is also important. The Mi-26 is just a heavy truck.
      1. +1
        10 August 2024 08: 23
        Considering that UAVs and all kinds of robots are playing an increasingly important role, the landing will be in this spirit in the future. This will be a transport mega-UAV, delivering ground-based robotic drones, but also human paratroopers, as well as electronic warfare and electronic warfare equipment behind enemy lines. For example, so that unexpectedly for the enemy, and at the time appointed for us, an electronic warfare station turns on behind enemy lines, and for some time blocks all control and communication frequencies in a large area of ​​the rear until the enemy detects it. Now this is perhaps equivalent to a landing.
        Means for the transfer and landing of troops, analogues of modern helicopters, in the future, this will most likely be an unmanned vehicle, with a radius of up to 1000 km (500 there and back), speed close to sound, but vertical take-off and landing, body using stealth technology, low noise, carrying capacity of a transport helicopter, terrain-following flight. It needs new engines
        1. +1
          10 August 2024 08: 29
          Well, the USA gave birth to something similar in terms of Osprey. They also have a requirement that it fits into the hold; after all, they have an emphasis on the marine component. But apparently the task turned out to be of increased complexity. The payload there is only about 5 tons, but in airplane mode the speed is 570 km/h at a range of 700 km. But still, 570 km/h is not very airplane-like winked
          1. 0
            10 August 2024 08: 34
            Yes, something like an Osprey, but in a 21st century version, not with these archaic engines. And the landing is a little different. These are special forces, very well trained. Which will quietly and quickly carry out important tasks in the rear to disorganize combat control or destroy enemy objects key to this task.
            1. +2
              10 August 2024 13: 29
              And it will remain there forever. Disposable troops however :(
              1. 0
                10 August 2024 13: 44
                And in war, what is the alternative, either follow orders, or?
                1. +1
                  10 August 2024 14: 00
                  Motivation, right? The question is, who will take care of your family, your loved ones? Taking into account the presence of “effective management” and general trust in the state as such, this is not an idle question. “I didn’t send you there” was already there.
                  1. 0
                    10 August 2024 14: 17
                    In a big war, the motivation is this - to complete the task behind enemy lines, to give your troops an advantage, then they will break through the front, go on the offensive, and maybe the strategic situation will change in favor of your country and army. Then your family and your people will still live
          2. +2
            10 August 2024 09: 42
            The payload there is only about 5 tons, but in airplane mode the speed is 570 km/h at a range of 700 km.

            Maximum load up to 9 tons, maximum radius up to 1240 km.
          3. 0
            12 August 2024 23: 13
            Osprey was born only by the presence of the Marine Corps and the presence of a bunch of Avinois and a large fleet.
            They had a lot of suffering with osprey.
            We don't need such joy. We simply don't have enough normal planes.
      2. +4
        10 August 2024 09: 39
        The Americans have Osprey tiltrotors. At one time they were touched by them, then they stopped. Accident rate.

        Well, the Americans needed a tiltrotor not for “touching”, but for very specific tasks: a deck-based high-speed delivery vehicle (with a larger radius, capacity and speed than any helicopter) of forces and equipment, including aircraft engines for deck-based information warfare. And no matter what the accident rate, they are not going to abandon it yet...
  8. +2
    10 August 2024 07: 32
    Or maybe someone can remember at least one successful reform over the past 30 years? Well, at least the seediest one...
    1. +2
      10 August 2024 08: 04
      Well, at least the seediest one...
      They're all seedy wink
    2. +2
      10 August 2024 09: 48
      can he remember at least one successful reform over the past 30 years?

      Lucky for whom?
      If for reformers/optimizers, then they are all successful...
    3. 0
      10 August 2024 21: 48
      Quote from turembo
      Or maybe someone can remember at least one successful reform over the past 30 years?

      pension.
      I think that it is the best and most brilliant reform (sarcasm!)
      the grandfather named Putin, who carried it out, still receives 87% of support in any elections, but any posts that he is scolded for this receive 87% of minuses.
  9. +6
    10 August 2024 07: 44
    This is another question: how do today’s “strategists” generally understand the methods and methods of waging war? And since now the North Military District is not a war at all, it is possible that if there were a war, the Airborne Forces would be very useful. Otherwise, first, bridges and tunnels, capitals and general staffs of the enemy, having the opportunity to destroy, are not destroyed, not destroyed, having the opportunity to destroy, ports and railway junctions where the West freely provides anti-aircraft air defense systems to the enemy, and then the “strategists” argue that there is an airborne assault It’s dangerous because the enemy can shoot down our planes and paratroopers with anti-aircraft air defense systems.
    So soon such “strategists” will say that we don’t need the marines either, because the enemy can sink our landing ships along with the marines on board with anti-ship missiles, which the West provides to our enemy using the same enemy logistics that we have not destroyed, as anti-aircraft missiles
    Is it weak to train infantry personnel at the Airborne Forces level, but without airborne landing skills?
    So now even infantry do not attack on foot in formation. Landed from BMT, from ATVs, from armored vehicles. Why aren't they paratroopers? They just need to be trained to the level of Airborne Forces fighters, without the skills to parachute from the air, or to the level of current attack aircraft. I assume that the current assault paratroopers know how to not only attack, but also how to defend themselves.
    This is my personal opinion. Perhaps I'm wrong. I myself did not serve either in the infantry or in the airborne forces...
    Answer, experts!
    1. 0
      10 August 2024 19: 50
      So now even infantry do not attack on foot in formation. Landed from BMT, from ATVs, from armored vehicles. Why aren't they paratroopers? They just need to be trained to the level of Airborne Forces fighters, without the skills to parachute from the air, or to the level of current attack aircraft. I assume that the current assault paratroopers know how to not only attack, but also how to defend themselves.

      There, everything is exactly the opposite, it is necessary to raise the airborne forces to the level of ordinary infantry, because now you cannot fight without heavy weapons, it even comes to the point that the infantry is “stripped” in favor of the paratroopers, since they cannot live long on BMD.
      And the objectives of the landing may well be achieved with the help of artillery, missiles, UAVs, etc.; personal presence is no longer needed.
    2. -1
      12 August 2024 09: 35
      first, bridges and tunnels, capitals and general staffs of the enemy, having the opportunity to destroy, do not destroy, do not destroy, having the opportunity to destroy, ports and railway junctions and you still aren’t convinced that there is no such possibility? That modern weapons are not so omnipotent - as they have told us for the last 60 years?
  10. +2
    10 August 2024 08: 12
    1. Mobile special forces are absolutely necessary.
    2. The parachute delivery method is currently not effective.
    Reason: the presence of mobile air defense systems, the enemy’s ability to quickly transfer heavy equipment.
    For operations against an enemy without modern technology, the release of paratroopers can be effective.
    3. The time has come for trained infantry.
    We need fighters who can work independently or in small groups.
    We need specialization in interaction with artillery and aviation - fire spotters, UAV operators.
    We need mobile groups in light armored vehicles, with UAV swarm operators, and electronic reconnaissance specialists.
    The main task is to ensure communication between reconnaissance systems and weapons (missiles, aircraft, heavy UAVs), the ability to work autonomously for a long time, and the ability to camouflage.
  11. 0
    10 August 2024 08: 51
    There was an excellent article by Andrey from Chelyabinsk on this topic 2-3 years ago. There, a “jacket” (if also a “jacket”, maybe dear Andrey can enlighten us on this issue?) with an analytical mind clearly, piece by piece, sorted out the need to HAVE an airborne force. From their goals and objectives, to the required quantity, means and methods of delivery, composition and weapons. Both articles seem to be about the same thing, but they are strikingly different. For those who are interested and who haven’t read it, look in the archive and the author’s profile.
  12. +1
    10 August 2024 08: 54
    The landing force of the future is most likely a special forces landing force that will not go into attacks shouting hurray. Yes, he will land in the rear, but absolutely unnoticed by the enemy. He will land in the evening, complete his missions at night, and in the morning, let’s assume, an offensive by combined arms formations will begin on this section of the front. For the offensive to be successful, special forces troops must destroy important objects at night, for example, OTRK, air defense systems, control posts, self-propelled guns.
    The enemy will discover this, but it’s too late - at 6.00 the divisions on that side already went on the offensive laughing but the artillery does not fire, there are no air defense systems, there are no tactical missiles. The front is broken!
    1. +1
      10 August 2024 19: 39
      This is already work for our scientists to create a reliable method of teleporting immediately behind enemy lines and returning back in case of failure of the attacking troops. laughing
  13. 0
    10 August 2024 09: 26
    It's not about airborne reforms, that's not the problem. The problem is that the infantry is again receding into the background - engineering and combat engineer assault battalions, PMC "Wagner", now the Airborne Forces... although the infantry must carry out the combined arms battle.
  14. 0
    10 August 2024 09: 48
    Do the modern Russian Armed Forces need Airborne Troops?

    Of course, they are not needed, and neither tanks, nor air forces, nor motorized rifles are needed... Western partners will not give bad advice, really.
  15. 0
    10 August 2024 10: 07
    Due to the failure of the first (and what should be the last) stage of the Northern Military District, we came to a positional impasse, which resulted in the creation of a stable defense, continuous minefields and engineered positions.
    In this regard, the main proposals boiled down to strengthening the assault infantry, the use of quadcopters, ATVs, scooters and, in the future, skateboards to overcome the enemy’s defense line. At the same time, those giving such advice do not even think that in essence they are proposing to turn this hellish meat grinder even faster under the slogan “Not a step forward!”
    Meanwhile, the role of the airborne troops is described by a simple formula from that pre-war song:
    Where the infantry will not pass,
    And the armored train won't rush
    A sullen tank will not crawl through -
    There will fly a steel bird!
    It is the ability to deliver well-armed groups and groups of troops to the unprotected rear directly to strategically important objects that is the main goal of the creation and development of these troops. By bypassing enemy defenses, the Airborne Forces are able to capture and mine (with an appropriate small-sized charge) any object behind enemy lines. For example, when capturing a port, ensure the transportation of the main forces by sea, or when capturing and mining the corresponding points, practically bring a city of a million people to submission.
    Or a remote island base with appropriate cover.
    The main thing is the competent use of the results of the actions of the Airborne Forces by the rest of the Armed Forces to achieve unconditional victory, and not some kind of “improvement of negotiating positions.
    1. 0
      10 August 2024 12: 01
      Well, what kind of steel bird can fly to Lvov now?
      To Odessa?

      Before Suji?

      Practice is the criterion of truth.
      1. -1
        10 August 2024 12: 25
        To Thule - maybe. There was such preparation during the USSR.
        And to Lvov - through Moldova/Romania.
        1. 0
          12 August 2024 09: 39
          And to Lvov - through Moldova/Romania.
          At the same time, we will declare war on Romania and Moldova....
          What do you propose to do - if they are shot down (and they will be shot down!)??!!!!
          1. 0
            12 August 2024 12: 11
            At the same time, we will declare war on Romania and Moldova...
            What do you propose to do - if they are shot down (and they will be shot down!)??!!!!

            Don’t worry about your own, they won’t shoot you down if you have the right cover. Watching himself in transit, under special cover, who would wish his country dead?
            This is exactly how Operation Danube was carried out. Several planes are in transit, and then there is an urgent landing in Prague.
            1. +1
              12 August 2024 12: 29
              This is exactly how Operation Danube was carried out. Several planes are in transit, and then there is an urgent landing in Prague.
              But ...
              And Prague THEN was a member of NATO? Or was it a state in which the USSR appointed whoever it wanted because there was a group of troops there?
              You are not even comparing a finger with.
              Romania and Moldova have every right to shoot down unknown military aircraft that they did not allow to fly over.
              But the devil would be with him, if in your opinion they wouldn’t shoot him down - What next?
              And then, at the moment of the flight, the information will be transmitted through NATO to the outskirts and it will shoot down.
              And even if not everyone gets shot down
              - we’ll drop 5 paratroopers on Lviv and?
              What is the effect? They will be knocked out to zero in a week
              1. -2
                12 August 2024 12: 35
                What is the effect? They will be knocked out to zero in a week

                5000 is power!
                And for Lvov you need about two dozen groups of 10 people, if half complete the task, then Lvov will capitulate, you can send in occupation troops.
                But for all this you need to have a real General Staff, good intelligence and real saboteurs, not brick breakers.
                1. 0
                  12 August 2024 12: 40
                  And Lviv needs about two dozen groups of 10 people, if half complete the task, then Lviv will capitulate, and occupation troops can be sent in.

                  It seems to you.
                  In fact, big cities are very resilient. Yerevan in the 1990s, for example, sat almost completely without electricity and heating for a couple of years.
                  And the saboteurs... Well, that's how it is...
                  "Brandenburg", for example, during the entire war was able to successfully conquer only 2 bridges and that's all...
                  1. 0
                    12 August 2024 12: 58
                    If you have a landmine on your TV tower, in addition to the thermal power plant and the town hall, this is a big problem. Well, there’s also a stadium full of young people (the show can be ordered for surgery). Well, to be convincing, blow up some factory on the outskirts without warning.
                    True, half of the groups will be destroyed, but half will pass.
                    1. 0
                      12 August 2024 13: 01
                      Lviv is actually a bad example. It is not a key object; there are more important ones.
                    2. 0
                      12 August 2024 13: 21
                      If you have a landmine on your TV tower,
                      Thermal power plant and town hall in
                      factory on the outskirts
                      And apparently they will deliver explosives to you using KamAZ trucks?
                      Perhaps you haven’t seen that a 152 mm shell makes a hole in a couple of concrete slabs, a hole at the entrance and that’s it?
                      And there are 8 kg of explosives in cast iron.
                      Don’t you see that when heavy missiles with warheads hit 200-300-500kg The damage is small - the windows flew out, the span collapsed and that's all?
                      How much explosives can that group plant? 2 kg and that's it?
                      And large volumes are a shame, even if the guards are shot at.
                      And even the stadium - well, 20-30-50 will die there, so what?
                      What strategic gain will such a landing bring? That's right - zero!!
                      So you can continue to dream, but do this nonsense nobody will.
                      1. 0
                        12 August 2024 15: 32
                        The bale is about 45 kg.
                        Everyone in the stadium is guaranteed to die.
                        On the CHP pipe, the roofs of workshops within a radius of 400 m will collapse, not to mention the pipe itself.
                        A carriage on a standard bridge - 500 m due to wave motion.
                        and. and so forth.
                        There are more interesting goals, but we shouldn’t talk about them.
                        War is not a toy.
                      2. 0
                        12 August 2024 16: 03
                        War is not a toy.
                        Therefore, everything that you have fantasized about is your imagination.
                        It has not been confirmed by anything in history, either in theory or in practice.
                        In order to block a thermal power plant pipe, aphids use up to 600 kg of explosives placed on the surface of the pipe at certain points.
                        There can be up to one and a half meters of walls there.
                        There are plenty of videos on the Internet showing how they are demolishing it.
                        Tyuchok, yeah.....

                        And this
                        Everyone in the stadium is guaranteed to die. Overall a masterpiece.
                        The Karateos at Babi Yar were shot, shot very carefully and finished off. Then they sprinkled it
                        Nevertheless, it has been recorded that sometimes the earth moved due to movements and there are cases of survival.
                        Confused and buried, they survived...
                        And you are right - everyone will die...
                        Stop fantasizing...
                      3. 0
                        12 August 2024 16: 10
                        If the shock wave front is 0,7 kg/cm2, then the probability of death is above 90%. Not to mention radiation.
                      4. +1
                        12 August 2024 16: 47
                        As I understand it, you decided to fantasize even further and dragged Tactical Nuclear Weapons there?
                        I hasten to disappoint you - it is quite easy to determine whose charge it is, just as it is easy to determine what it is nuclear weapons.
                        This means there is no point in sneaking a tactical mine there. You might as well hit it with a rocket.
                        Moreover, since you are planning to use nuclear weapons in cities, there is no point in tactics at all and it is easier to use strategic dozens of other warheads in all cities at once. So as not to sort - where is industry and where are civilians...
                        But the flight of your unbridled imagination delivers....
                2. 0
                  13 August 2024 16: 04
                  5000 is power!
                  And for Lvov you need about two dozen groups of 10 people, if half complete the task, then Lvov will capitulate, you can send in occupation troops.
                  But for all this you need to have a real General Staff, good intelligence and real saboteurs, not brick breakers.

                  A certain GENIUS military leader has already taken Grozny with the forces of one airborne division, no?
                  1. 0
                    13 August 2024 16: 11
                    And I would take it with a full arsenal.
                    You will remember the fire capabilities of a deployed division. If you level block by block with air support, then that’s exactly it.
                    But it turned out as always, politicians intervened, the answer was that the brothers were there and they went to pick all sorts of things.
                    The first time this happened was in the summer of 1920 in Poland. A proletarian uprising was also expected near Warsaw. The result is known.
                    1. 0
                      13 August 2024 16: 29
                      And if you level block by block, why is there a VDD there? Let the TBAD work with the support of the IAD.
      2. +2
        10 August 2024 20: 11
        But it doesn’t occur to you that any absolutely landing, and even the very offensive of ground forces, can be carried out by misleading the enemy about your true intentions. That is, when planning a landing, and accordingly an offensive operation, the effect of surprise is achieved based on the configuration of the front and the goals of the ground offensive operation. Your same mobile air defense systems, and even the same fighters with MANPADS may not be located everywhere at one time or another. The enemy will not know where exactly the landing is planned, this is the first thing. Secondly, the corridor for military aviation will have to be provided by front-line aviation of the Air Force. Thirdly, why do you need Odessa in this front configuration? Do you want to drop troops just like that? Our level is maximum, this is an operational-tactical landing force. And it is precisely at such distances that we need to act. But the landing party should not act and be thrown out on its own, because someone there wanted it. And with the support of the advancing main allied forces.
    2. 0
      10 August 2024 12: 03
      Can you indicate where the enemy’s “unprotected rear” is now?
      Where should steel birds fly?
    3. 0
      10 August 2024 12: 11
      The main thing is the competent use of the results of the Airborne Forces' actions by the rest of the Armed Forces to achieve unconditional victory

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  16. +1
    10 August 2024 11: 27
    Back in the “most God-glorified” 90s, when the “gifted and sun-like”, seemingly prize-winning, from the rostrum in the overseas metropolis, selling the once great power entrusted to him, obsequiously, servilely shouted “God bless America.” Even then, at the direction of the State Department, active attempts were made to destroy, sorry, to reform, primarily the Strategic Missile Forces, Air Force, Air Defense and Airborne Forces; payments of monetary and clothing allowances ceased. We had “rumors” and questions were raised about the transformation of the Airborne Forces into airmobile brigades and battalions. Only thanks to generals Podkolzin E.N., Shpak G.I., Shamanov V.A. The Airborne Forces still exist, creating the Glory of the Russian army and weapons.
    1. 0
      13 August 2024 16: 07
      And by the way, Ukraine reformed the entire landing force into airmobile units.
  17. +5
    10 August 2024 11: 30
    As the saying goes, one... hmm, can ask so many questions that 100 wise men will not answer.
    The history of “unsuccessful” landings usually shows that they became “unsuccessful” because the paratroopers completed their task, but those who were supposed to support them did not. Author, how about taking the subject more seriously?
    1. 0
      13 August 2024 16: 09
      Not only that. Disgusting planning, underestimating the enemy, neglecting intelligence, etc., etc.... No matter what is more important.
  18. 0
    10 August 2024 12: 41
    Airborne assault and marines are not motorized rifles. These are specialists of a narrow profile. Piece goods, if you like. Soldiers capable of not only surviving behind enemy lines, but also performing combat missions there.


    Exclusively in your imagination. Since the same Yankees use paratroopers and marines precisely as an alternative to traditional infantry. Why didn’t similar “narrow specialists” fight in Afghanistan on the Yankee side?
    The advantage of the landing force is that it is the most mobile and operational branch of the armed forces, allowing for an extremely quick response to the emerging threat.
    Yes, in its previous form, the Airborne Forces no longer correspond to reality. We need air assault troops, using heavy (and not only) helicopters, with mandatory air cover (both fighters and attack aircraft, to clear the bridgehead before landing).
    1. 0
      12 August 2024 09: 43
      mandatory air cover (both fighters and attack aircraft to clear the bridgehead before landing).
      This is not WWII - they bombed a kilometer and hurray!
      Now Patriot is pushing further. How long does it take to clean 20-30-50km в depth?
      That and that
  19. +4
    10 August 2024 12: 48
    Strange formulation of the question in the article.
    Within the structure of the Ground Forces in terms of physical and combat training, these have always been the most trained and combat-ready units. By the way, air assault units were already in the same Pskov division in the USSR.
    You can at least break into pieces, but it is very difficult to train a motorized rifleman to the level of a paratrooper.
    Therefore, there were many times more motorized rifle units in the USSR than landing troops. Standards for the same forced marches?
    Because the Airborne Forces selected already physically trained conscripts, and these days this is a huge problem.
    In MMA - one thing, in the ranks of the Armed Forces - neither.
    It is absurd to reduce everything to parachute landings, and on this basis to “reform” the landing force; no one has suffered from this for a long time... but this is rather an indicator of the courage and level of what a paratrooper is, from the point of view of standards, and not of mass combat use.
    The Airborne Forces are at the forefront of attack today, the slogan “Nobody but us” is not an empty phrase!
  20. +1
    10 August 2024 13: 22
    Omgf.. The best go to the Airborne Forces, huge amounts of money are spent on their training, but the result?
    The defeat of the landing force was inherent in the very concept of such strategic operations. The paratroopers were sent to their deaths, knowing full well that the maximum that a landing party could achieve was to divert serious forces from the front for a short time.

    Is there any other way to solve this problem, not in such a cannibalistic way? From the series “the development of the XXX device failed, but we gained valuable experience.”
    But there are two operations that can be called successful. We are talking about Operation Danube, the landing by landing of units of the 7th and 103rd Airborne Forces in Prague and the landing in the same way in December 1979 of the 103rd Airborne Division and 345th Fergana OPDP at airfields in Bagram and Kabul.

    We fought with the allies, so to speak, there was no active opposition to the landing. Will we have more such happy occasions?
    I think that the airborne assault forces have taken their rightful place within the airborne forces. Not the place of the paratroopers, but precisely their place, the assault units of the front line. Having such formations means expanding the capabilities of the Airborne Forces.

    Leading edge? How will we use the Airborne Forces, by landing in the rear or on the front line, as well-trained light elite infantry?
    About use. If I remember correctly, in the USSR during the war, in 1942, the airborne divisions were transformed into ordinary rifle divisions, given the title of “guards” in advance and sent to the front. Now there is already talk about giving tanks to paratroopers, but a tank is not needed in the paratroopers, these will be completely different tasks, for which parachute jumps are not needed.
    Yes, tactical landings can take place. But this does not require a division. Yes, separate brigades and even battalions as part of combined arms armies are needed. Organize training centers on the basis of divisions, retaining specialists and equipment.
  21. 0
    10 August 2024 13: 43
    it’s just time to change the concept.. modern weapons actually do not allow an effective airborne assault by the enemy.. all airborne landing assets are guaranteed to be destroyed in the air even before entering the landing zone.. as a result, airborne troops move into the airmobile category... well, according to the BMD from foil, questions also arise regarding their effectiveness... that’s enough, the generals have played enough with spillikins, it’s time to get down to business..
  22. +2
    10 August 2024 14: 03
    Staver writes.
    For the success of the operation, air supremacy is necessary above all.

    Right. But. With air supremacy, all landing tasks will be solved by strike aircraft.
  23. 0
    10 August 2024 14: 07
    The parachute kills your knees. Pointless. And then they don’t have time, like the 3rd platoon of the 6th company.

    Teach what is needed in war.
  24. 0
    10 August 2024 14: 10
    I think it is necessary to reform the brains of our generals. In the east they say that every donkey wears its own ears. Airborne assault and marines are not motorized rifles. These are specialists of a narrow profile. Piece goods, if you like. Soldiers capable of not only surviving behind enemy lines, but also performing combat missions there.


    Individual specialists are needed in individual quantities. The Gostomel airfield was taken over by a helicopter landing with the participation of up to 300 people. This ended the airborne participation of the Airborne Forces in the Northern Military District. For this kind of operation, one special forces brigade for the entire country is enough.
    The remaining small airborne brigades are used as regular infantry. The Airborne Forces in its current form are a rudiment of a concept from the 1930s, which was preserved despite the experience of combat operations thanks to the charisma of Margelov. Probably the greatest harm was the production of expensive, lightly armored equipment designed for parachute landing, which delighted the eyes of generals and statesmen in exercises, but was never used in combat conditions. Even to repel the attack of the Ukrainian Armed Forces on the Kursk region, parachute landing of BMD was not used to speed up the transfer of military equipment.

    The Airborne Forces are dead, although the airborne generals will hold on to retaining command positions with an accelerated seniority stranglehold. The organization of air assault brigades using motorized rifle equipment as part of the Ground Forces seems much more promising.
    1. 0
      13 August 2024 16: 14
      Even to repel the attack of the Ukrainian Armed Forces on the Kursk region, parachute landing of BMD was not used to speed up the transfer of military equipment.

      And stretch your legs along the clothes.
      Do we now have a lot of free military aviation (including transport helicopters), thanks to the God-saved leadership?
  25. osp
    +2
    10 August 2024 14: 42
    In modern wars there will no longer be any mass landings of people, much less equipment.
    MANPADS that have appeared and continue to be improved can shoot down targets at altitudes of up to 6 kilometers. They can shoot down both airplanes and helicopters.
    Modern Western air defense systems have LPI operating modes and can be covertly ambushed.
    Not to mention enemy fighter aircraft.

    Well, of course, no one will risk military transport aircraft, of which there are few left and which also need protection at airfields.
    Last year's incident with the attack on Pskov is proof of this.
  26. +3
    10 August 2024 20: 30
    The most senseless branch of the military. It is only possible to launch a landing force in modern conditions if there are savages with bows and arrows against you. Rather, we need rapid reaction forces, with different weapons, principles of formation, deployment, and actions. In fact, we have the following: the landing force and marines are infantry, armed with weak weapons, unable to carry out tasks without the support of other types of troops.
    1. 0
      13 August 2024 16: 16
      unable to carry out tasks without the support of other types of troops.

      Is there at least one branch of the military that is now capable of fighting alone? Even the Strategic Missile Forces exist as part of the strategic nuclear triad.
  27. +1
    10 August 2024 22: 33
    In fact, I read debates about this about 10 years ago. I'm sure they were there before. The arguments are reinforced concrete. At the moment, troops dropped by parachute do not make sense. Light airmobile infantry yes, airborne infantry no. But when the domes are in the sky, yes, it’s beautiful. Nearby, along the way, there’s a training ground where valiant paratroopers are abandoned. And I myself had the pleasure of going through training in the 76th division at the beginning of the XNUMXs and ended up at the jump support checkpoint. It’s just a holiday, like young people being thrown out on their first jump. But, but.
  28. +1
    10 August 2024 23: 34
    I don’t see anything strange - light units transported by aviation and airborne units showed their inability from the very beginning of their appearance - there are 2 reasonable incarnations left - light infantry transported by helicopters and elite motorized infantry
  29. +1
    11 August 2024 01: 52
    Well, this is not infantry! Although in the minds of our generals this is precisely well-trained infantry! This also applies to the Marines, by the way. It's the same there. There is some river in the area of ​​operations of the formation or association, let's throw the Marines there. They are accustomed to the water... And elite naval paratroopers go to the river bank to defend or take reaches and islands.


    Balm for the soul! After Kursk happens, we remember about the Airborne Forces and begin to frantically search for them. Where are they now? Why don’t diaisians land on the enemy’s DRG advance routes for the operational defense of Kursk and the region. It turns out they are in the trenches, in the Donbass, and for some reason the motorized rifles are again not ready to fight, or they are not there at all.
    During combat operations, there will always be plenty of work for the Airborne Forces, in addition to grandiose landing operations. Control of the front-line zone and the destruction of enemy sabotage and reconnaissance groups are the key to the success of any military operation. This is exactly what paratroopers should do, as mobile, lightly armed units.
  30. +1
    11 August 2024 02: 34
    there is intention behind this - the paratroopers are among the most loyal and patriotic troops. this, and their professionalism, make them an obstacle for a state coup or invasion. coroborate this with the attack against the ministry of defense hierarchy and the plot thickens. and it even signs itself:
    https://en.topwar.ru/247603-cygane-kruche-migrantov-ob-osobennoj-prestupnosti-v-rossii.html
  31. 0
    11 August 2024 06: 27
    RDGs in the Airborne Forces and Marine Corps should not be confused with just paratroopers. It’s just that a paratrooper is a well-trained infantryman, artilleryman, BMD driver, etc. What they have in common is a blue beret.
    They have completely different tasks and different training. Here are the Kursk events, why not throw an airborne division out of the depths of Russia, Siberia, the Urals in that place inaccessible to the Ukrainian air defense, where the paratroopers will reach the battlefield in a rush? In Soviet times, the standard for forced marches for the Airborne Forces was 25 km, for infantry 10 km, and technical troops 6 km. And all this for a certain time on my own two legs with 40 kg of equipment. These are weapons, ammunition and a three-day supply of food. Once in the Strategic Missile Forces training we tried the Airborne Forces March Throw until we died at 18 kilometers. For example, the Chinese troops opposing us at that time trained for 75 km, and they had all the food on a belt around their waist for seven days.
    I am for the Airborne Forces, but all troops need to be used wisely. soldier
    1. +2
      11 August 2024 06: 48
      It’s just that a paratrooper is a well-trained infantryman, artilleryman, BMD driver, etc.

      Well, that's relative. How can a paratrooper be perfectly trained compared to an ordinary infantryman, artilleryman, etc.? Half of a paratrooper's training time is spent on what turns out to be unnecessary parachute training.
      1. 0
        11 August 2024 06: 56
        A parachute jump develops overcoming fear, fearlessness in battle, one of the main traits of a paratrooper. High morale is the main thing for any warrior.
    2. 0
      15 August 2024 13: 30
      will the paratroopers reach the battlefield in a rush?

      Now it is simply impossible to get close to the enemy unnoticed, there are too many reconnaissance drones in the sky (with thermal imagers, etc.), such a forced march is essentially a meat assault, without the support of heavy infantry, paratroopers have nothing to do on the battlefield.
  32. 0
    11 August 2024 07: 55
    Quote: Arzt
    With air supremacy, all landing tasks will be solved by strike aircraft.


    No, not all. Aviation can destroy objects, not always selectively, but sometimes the task is not to destroy the object, but to capture it.
  33. +1
    11 August 2024 07: 58
    Quote: V.
    Skydiving helps you overcome fear,


    Good in training mode. But during a combat mission, a paratrooper with a parachute is just a target in slow flight.
    Overcoming fear can be developed in other ways.
    Parachuting is only suitable for small units of special forces saboteurs in modern conditions.
  34. 0
    11 August 2024 08: 20
    The author did not touch upon one very important topic - the process of airdropping itself. And it seems to me that this is the main reason for the talk about the “uselessness” of the landing. Today, the likelihood of a large landing force reaching the landing site is rapidly decreasing. (Naturally, we are talking about an equal enemy.) Takeoff is recorded almost from the moment it leaves the runway, missile engagement distances are measured in hundreds of kilometers, and it is unrealistic to completely suppress short- and medium-range air defense (+ MANPADS), especially at a great distance from the front line.
    That is, a revision of tactics and strategy is certainly necessary.
    1. 0
      13 August 2024 16: 21
      ANY means, force, (unit, if you like) in modern combat has a bunch of highly effective opponents and little chance of survival. However, they fight somehow, and even complete their tasks.
  35. +1
    11 August 2024 12: 47
    Why the brigade was deprived of the Order of the Red Banner of Battle, I don’t know...
    Why be surprised if the Banner on the order is Red? You know very well that the Red Banner affects those who sit under the tricolor, like that same muleta on the toro. sad
  36. 0
    11 August 2024 12: 53
    I've been living for a long time. And I came to the conclusion that any reform in our country is carried out according to the scheme that the communists once voiced in their anthem. “The whole world... we will destroy it to the ground, and then...” I think it’s time to move away from this scheme. Refuse the bad, but keep the good.
    You say you’ve been alive for a long time, but you distort the words from the song. Did you forget or deliberately omit a key word from the phrase after the ellipsis? I assume it was deliberate. But why? winked
  37. 0
    11 August 2024 20: 17
    For the success of the operation, air supremacy is necessary above all. Complete cover of fighters from the sky. Further, the ability to quickly transfer infantry with armored vehicles and heavy weapons to occupied territories, organize an uninterrupted supply of paratroopers with ammunition and food. And so on...


    What kind of air supremacy can we talk about with modern air defense - ukry as an example, if not for the UMPK, our bombers would never have bombed ukrov...
    Now about the landing - not a single transport aircraft will reach the target, it will simply be shot down, given that it will already be known about it at the moment of taxiing for takeoff, taking into account the level of NATO aerospace reconnaissance...
    Moreover, the presence of man-portable air defense systems is a guarantee of this, even at the moment of landing - this is, for example, about Prague...
    This is how the spirits acted in Afghanistan when they had stingers... (for understanding, you can recall the film 9th Company)
    Now about supplies - we cannot really provide it by land, let alone by air...
    This is not the Second World War, when the partisans were supplied with problems...
    So, all these tricks are only used against barmalei in slippers...
    And even then, taking into account Syria, our aircraft did not fly/bomb there below 7000m and also dropped cargo from a decent height (remember the video with the Il-76 and the steepness of the Su-30)
    ---
    Now about reform - yes, but now is not the time, this is the task of a peaceful period...
    But it is necessary - there is no doubt about it...
    And it should not consist in the liquidation of the Airborne Forces, but in the development of a new concept...
    Margelov’s idea of ​​“landing divisions with equipment” is good for “parades and training grounds”, but not for the realities of war...
    In general, it’s impossible to come up with anything new - everything was invented a long time ago...
    Landing forces are sent in small forces only if covert delivery is possible, to capture an object before a massive attack by the main forces...
    In all other cases of its discovery, it is meaningless, it will simply be destroyed...
    And this option, as was the case at Gostomel airport, is a clear demonstration of the incompetence of the command: throw it in - they threw it in and that’s it, then they had to save it...
    It’s a good thing they didn’t send Ilya yet, although they were already being loaded...
    Someone was smart enough to cancel...

    As for the Marine Corps, it’s a different calico...
    Although, it seems to me that there is a similar problem - there cannot be any real landing from the sea - a la assault, in modern wars of developed armies ...
    If you don't make a meat grinder...
    Pin to sy they definitely won’t do this...
    But our generals easily...
  38. 0
    12 August 2024 01: 11
    In 1977, he was appointed political officer of 1PDR 317 PDP 103 VDD (Vitebsk). The commander of the 3rd platoon was Mikhail Kovalevsky, who after college ended up with the 103rd Airborne Division in Czechoslovakia. And in 1979 we already flew to Afghanistan. In 1981, Mikhail was unlucky. Stepped on a mine. But he survived.
    This is about the participation of the Airborne Forces in strategic operations.
  39. 0
    12 August 2024 11: 55
    A picture from a Soviet newsreel - Il-76 and An-12 are rolling into the training ground in flocks, thousands of paratroopers are being dropped, equipment is on huge parachutes... I'm afraid all this is in the past. Even not the most modern air defense will knock down transport aircraft even as they approach the combat course. Perhaps that is why many IL-76s will not be needed in the landing version. What exactly will remain? Helicopter landings. The ingenious Mi-8, 20 paratroopers, approach at ultra-low altitudes of 10-20 meters, quick landing, solution to a combat mission. Objectively, there is no horror in this. The development of means of detection and destruction is underway, just as Fausts, bazookas and grenade launchers once revolutionized the fight against tanks in the city. Or now drones are the hardest problem. But the Airborne Forces will remain, but the number will inevitably decrease. And the application will be different. Everything has been said about Gostomel - the paratroopers completed the task, there was no continuation... But that’s another story.
    1. 0
      13 August 2024 16: 26
      What was, will no longer be, and let King Solomon at least come out with... poison.
      The development of one entails the development of the other, and one must sit and think, and not wave a saber, before reforming. And then the corn farmer was already replacing EVERYTHING with rockets.
  40. 0
    12 August 2024 13: 49
    Quote: bayard
    Oh dreams, dreams ...

    This is a necessity.
  41. 0
    12 August 2024 13: 56
    Quote: your1970
    This is not WWII - they bombed a kilometer and hurray!
    Now Patriot is pushing further. How long does it take to clear 20-30-50 km deep?


    Did I suggest carpet bombing? Where and when?
    With well-established reconnaissance, it is possible to identify potentially dangerous (for landing) objects over a larger area, for example 70 by 70 km. Then carry out targeted strikes on them, since there are unlikely to be many such objects. Yeah, there’s a “patriot” on every hectare, this only happens in computer games. laughing
    At the landing point, it would be a good idea to carry out anti-mine treatment first.
    And only after that - the landing.
    1. +1
      12 August 2024 19: 08
      Quote: Illanatol
      With well-established reconnaissance, it is possible to identify potentially dangerous (for landing) objects over a larger area, for example 70 by 70 km. Then carry out targeted strikes on them, since there are unlikely to be many such objects.

      MANPADS and air defense systems with IR/photo-contrast seekers for missiles are extremely difficult to detect.
      And landing troops from heights greater than their reach means scattering them over a large area. It will take longer to assemble than the enemy’s reserves are suitable.
      And most importantly, in addition to the “primary processing” of the landing zone, the Air Force will have to carry out tasks to isolate this zone. Otherwise there will be a “Market Garden” - the landing will be rolled out by heavy formations. And this will have to be done almost all the time before the landing force joins the main forces.
  42. 0
    12 August 2024 19: 59
    Airborne units need to be reorganized into special forces or special forces units. But they should not be used as ordinary infantry, as they are now. Moreover, you can’t just kill the Marines in the trenches. These are special units with their own tasks. And with regard to the Airborne Forces, it is impossible not to note that at present, an airborne landing of troops is practically a crime, unless we are talking about landing somewhere in Africa or the Middle East. In Europe, this landing force will most likely be destroyed before it even leaves the plane. Modern means of detecting air targets will very quickly detect a transport aircraft with troops, after which it will easily be shot down with the help of an air defense system located tens or even hundreds of kilometers away. And the landing of paratroopers from a landed plane or helicopter can, of course, be called landing. But motorized riflemen, sappers, and anyone else can “land” like this. The problem is that paratroopers are always associated with parachuting. And now it is suicidal.
  43. 0
    12 August 2024 21: 32
    Does anyone really think that it is possible to land troops in a war zone, or behind enemy lines??? In which country? In Antarctica?
  44. 0
    13 August 2024 08: 24
    To be honest, I don’t quite understand the difference between the airborne forces and special forces in terms of their modern functionality
  45. 0
    13 August 2024 08: 34
    Quote: Alexey RA
    MANPADS and air defense systems with IR/photo-contrast seekers for missiles are extremely difficult to detect.
    And landing troops from heights greater than their reach means scattering them over a large area. It will take longer to assemble than the enemy’s reserves are suitable.
    And most importantly, in addition to the “primary processing” of the landing zone, the Air Force will have to carry out tasks to isolate this zone. Otherwise there will be a “Market Garden” - the landing will be rolled out by heavy formations.


    It's difficult, but it's possible. Including using reconnaissance drones, possibly air-based ones.
    I did not suggest landing from high altitudes, just as from low altitudes, it is better to use transport helicopters.
    Heavy formations will not roll out the landing if the landing has reliable and constant air support, which will take out the enemy’s armored vehicles in one go. Of course, the paratroopers themselves must have technical means of tactical reconnaissance (drones, primarily communication with reconnaissance satellites).
    You just need to have intelligence, management and coordination of actions at the proper level. And, of course, air assault (airmobile, if you like) units should be integrated into the overall structure of the Air Force (VKS), and not the ground forces. At the same time, the actions of the landing forces must be coordinated with the actions of ground troops, the latter must promptly arrive in the territories where the landing forces have taken positions.
    1. 0
      13 August 2024 18: 45
      Quote: Illanatol
      I did not suggest landing from high altitudes, just as from low altitudes, it is better to use transport helicopters.

      And we get right into the reach of regimental air defense systems and mass-produced and stealthy MANPADS.
      Quote: Illanatol
      Heavy formations will not roll out the landing if the landing has reliable and constant air support, which will take out the enemy’s armored vehicles in one go.

      That is, the Air Force will have to simultaneously support the landing, support the army personnel going to the landing, isolate the landing area and provide air defense. Will our owl be torn by such a globe? wink
  46. 0
    13 August 2024 08: 41
    Quote: Roma-92
    Does anyone really think that it is possible to land troops in a war zone, or behind enemy lines??? In which country?


    Almost anywhere. Modern armies, as a rule, are small in number; no state has real complete control over its territory. The experience of drug cartels that carry out massive deliveries of dope to American territory shows that even the “hegemon” does not have a closed border. Both land, sea and air. The days of millions of armies have already passed.
    Yes, over time the landing force will be detected and countermeasures will be taken. But the landing party should not act in isolation and carry out combat missions independently. The paratroopers only make the first move, and then others work.
    1. +1
      13 August 2024 18: 47
      Quote: Illanatol
      The experience of drug cartels that carry out massive deliveries of dope to American territory shows that even the “hegemon” does not have a closed border.

      As soon as drug cartels fly to the United States on C-17s, and in numbers sufficient to airborne at least a battalion of airborne forces, then it will be possible to talk about the lack of real complete control over your territory. smile
  47. 0
    13 August 2024 14: 58
    Demagoguery as it is:
    the communists voiced in their anthem. “The whole world... we will destroy it to the ground, and then...”

    The whole world is VIOLENT...

    A journalist interviews a famous scientist. Among other things, the scientist says:
    - Taken out of context, my statements make no sense.
    The newspaper comes out with the headline "The famous scientist admitted that his words do not make any sense!"
  48. 0
    13 August 2024 15: 19
    The appearance of airborne gunships in the airborne forces is associated with the collapse of the USSR.

    The 39th Order of the Red Star separate air assault brigade was created in 1979. I served in it in 85-86, PriKVO, Lviv region.
  49. 0
    14 August 2024 08: 33
    Quote: Alexey RA
    As soon as the drug cartels fly to the United States on C-17s, and in numbers sufficient to drop at least a battalion of airborne forces, then it will be possible to talk about the lack of real complete control over its territory by the United States.


    Why on S-17?
    How the Yankees control their territory and airspace was clearly shown on September 11, 2001. It was possible not only to deliver a battalion of paratroopers, but to deliver several tanks of nerve gas to Manhattan and/or directly to the vicinity of the Pentagon.

    Landing in the USA is simply not needed. You can drop a couple of divisions (not battalions) into the general mass of migrants, wearing civilian clothes. Weapons, including heavy ones, can be purchased locally at reasonable prices.
    Fortunately, the Yankees never even built their own picket fence on the border. Trump wanted to, but he was not allowed to finish.
  50. +1
    15 August 2024 11: 42
    But there are two operations that can be called successful. We are talking about Operation Danube, the landing by landing of units of the 7th and 103rd Airborne Forces in Prague and the landing in the same way in December 1979 of the 103rd Airborne Division and 345th Fergana OPDP at airfields in Bagram and Kabul.
    In both cases, the enemy did not even have time to utter a word.


    In both cases, the airborne forces were used not against the regular army with tanks and aircraft, but against the rebel residents of Prague and against the personal guard of the Afghan king...
  51. +1
    15 August 2024 12: 22
    Russia needs parachute units, but mainly in order to quickly strengthen the small units of the Armed Forces in the Far North or Far East.
    In what quantity, I think a maximum of 4 to 6 parachute regiments or two traffic divisions (divisions).
    Our military transport aviation will simply not be able to “take out” any more.
    During the exercises in Crimea, it took more than 70 military aircraft to land one parachute regiment.
    For these two divisions, it is necessary to collect all the airborne armored vehicles available in the units and in warehouses, from BMD-4M to BMD-2, and not bother with their production for the next 20 years.

    To quickly respond to threats such as a breakthrough of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Kursk REGION, to combat the DRG and enemy landings, helicopter landing brigades (VDB) must be formed in each Military District on the basis of assault regiments and airborne brigades.
    If there were such airborne forces, the first reserves in the Kursk region to help the border guards and servicemen would have arrived not in two or three days, but in two or three hours, and such deep breakthroughs 30 km deep into Russian territory would definitely have been avoided.
    Based on the availability and demand for helicopters, one helicopter regiment (three squadrons of 20 vehicles each) per one airborne battalion, it is already quite possible to form 5-6 airborne battalions.
    As equipment you need to use ATVs for 3-4 people. with cargo platforms on which ATGMs, AGS, mortars, 12,7 mm machine guns, electronic warfare stations and launchers for UAVs are mounted...
    Each Mi-8 can accommodate 6-8 of these ATVs with landing troops and ammunition.