Secrets of the Battle of the Kulikovo Field

173
"The Battle of Kulikovo refers to symbolic events ...
Such events are predetermined return.
They have yet to be solved. ”
Alexander Blok.


On the course and result of the Kulikov battle, one of the most famous events of the Russian stories, it says so much in monographs and textbooks, in panegyrics and poems, from the stands and at meetings that, on the one hand, there is practically nothing to add, but on the other, it is almost impossible to separate inventions of different eras from what actually happened.



Secrets of the Battle of the Kulikovo Field


Indeed, a careful study of Mamaev’s carnage turns out to consist entirely of only “dark” spots and, despite detailed descriptions, hundreds of years after the events, which largely determined the vector of Russia's development, it is possible that a stable generally accepted opinion is a highly distorted version of reality . After studying a lot of articles and documents on this issue, it became clear to scientists only one thing: in the battle under consideration, the victory was won by the Moscow Prince Dmitry Ivanovich, later called Donskoy. All other legends and myths cause only reasonable doubts.

Having tried to deal with the main points of the Kulikov battle and the events anticipating it, it is necessary to determine who Mamai was and why he actually went to the Russians on the ground by war? The poetic presentation of the “Zadonshchina”, written similarly to the “Talk of Igor’s Regiment,” regards Mamai as the legal representative of the authorities from the Golden Horde. However, other sources do not support this point of view, considering it a temnik (the leader of ten thousand soldiers), who acted in his own interests and sought to gain power through conquests and dubious alliances with the Lithuanian princes.

From the biography of Mamaia it is known that he ruled the whole Crimea, which served him as a source of income. And in 1361, he spread his power to the steppes of the Black Sea, the Volga-Don interfluve and the foothills of the North Caucasus. Then he began an active rebellious activities, splits the Horde. On the left bank of the Volga, Khan Tokhtamysh ruled, and on the right bank, the power was held by Mamai. Not having the right to claim the title of Khan, he constantly put forward his puppet to the throne. As a result, Mom had to almost simultaneously fight with Tokhtamysh and Dmitry. After the lost Don battle, Mamai fled to the steppe, and when Tokhtamysh decided to finish him off, he hid in Crimea in Feodosia, where he was killed.


Some authors are inclined to say that it was Ryazan and Lithuanian rulers who advised Mamai to oppose Dmitry of Moscow, promising him their support in order to stop Moscow’s zealous attempts to conquer, in their opinion, the primordially Lithuanian (Moscow) and Ryazan (Vladimir, Kolomna, Moore) lands and unite under its wing all the principalities. The aggressiveness of the initiators of the hostilities was quite understandable, because shortly before the Kulikov battle, Dmitry managed to defeat Lithuanian troops who were striving for Moscow and to establish their rule over Tver and Nizhny Novgorod lands.

According to other historical data, Moscow was one of the most loyal and obedient vassals of the Horde, regularly paying tribute, wanting to get assistance in confronting its western enemies (Germans and Lithuanians). When the power in the Golden Horde tried to seize the rebel Mamai, who did not even belong to the genus of the true Mongol khans-Chingizids, Dimitry had no choice but to side with the legitimate ruler of Ulu Ulus.

According to the officially accepted data, the Kulikov battle, she’s the Mamayev’s Battle, she’s the Don Battle, took place on September 16 (on the old September 8 style) on the 1380 of the year. The reason for her was the refusal of Moscow Prince Dmitry I to increase the tribute paid to Mom. Almost all the representatives of the North-Eastern lands of Russia took part in the campaign of the Moscow Prince Dmitry, and later the Novgorod and the Lithuanian princes Dmitry and Andrey Olgerdovichi, along with their squads, joined him. Aware of the danger of the unification of Mamai’s troops with Oleg Ryazansky and the prince of Lithuania, Jagiello, at the end of August Dmitry made a rapid crossing over the Oka, leaving behind a strategic reserve in Moscow. The attack of Tokhtamysh because of the Volga forced Mamai, who had not yet gathered maximum forces, to take the battle with the Russians in the open field. From the chronicles it is known that the massacre took place "on the Don Ustryadva mouth."

On September 7, in the evening, five Russian regiments were built into battle formations. The sixth regiment headed by Prince Vladimir Andreevich Serpukhovsky was hidden in an oak grove located above the river. Tatars also appeared on the Kulikovo field by noon the next day. The battle began with small fights of the forward detachments, then the famous duel between Chelubey and Alexander Peresvet took place, in which both bogatyrs died. After that, the main forces came together. The main blow of the Tatars was sent to the regiment of his left hand, the Russians could not resist and, pursued, ran towards Nepryadva. When the Tatars set up an ambush regiment behind the lines, Prince Vladimir Andreevich ordered an attack. This attack decided the outcome of the battle. The famous Tatar cavalry was driven into the river and killed. At the same time, the Lithuanian regiments went on the offensive. Mamai had no reserves, all his army was confused and fled. Tatars pursued a few more kilometers.

According to the version outlined in the textbooks, this victory secured Moscow’s status as an ideological center for the reunification of Eastern Slavic lands, marking the beginning of their deliverance from a foreign yoke.


Another reason for the battle on the Kulikovo Field is Mamai’s desire to prevent the trading of Moscow merchants with Crimean merchants. The Moscow prince took ten Surozh (I mean, the Crimean) merchants, who, apart from their participation, supported his performance financially. Apparently, they saw their benefits in what was happening. This becomes clear if we consider that the approaches to the Volga were blocked by the Horde, and the Dnieper was controlled by the Lithuanian prince Jagiello. And the fact that the war of Mamaia blocked the Don, caused a direct threat to free trade in this direction. And since Moscow received a tax from the merchants, the prince was also not profitable to silently watch their ruin.

The Golden Horde at that time was no longer a former great power. She reached the apogee of power at Uzbek (1312-1342), after which internal turmoil began to eat away at her. The annals speak of constant coups, after which the Russian princes had to go back to Sarai and confirm their labels. In two decades, two dozen Khans changed, behind many of whom stood Mamai, who was actively manipulating Chingizids. The bloody orgy continued until Tokhtamysh came to power.


Whatever the true cause of the start of the battle, the next key question that historians ask is the strength of the opposing sides. Since Mamai was not the true ruler of the Golden Horde, the number of his troops indicated in some sources, from fifty to eight hundred thousand people, as well as the quantitative estimate of Dmitry’s supporters, are of great doubt. Researchers suggest that when later events were described by army authors, the number of armies was erroneously estimated, in view of the fact that “a thousand” - as a combat unit of the army, was taken as a real thousand soldiers, although in reality there could be only about a hundred in this formation. In addition, the narrators of ancient times were always prone to hyperbole to multiply the merits of their rulers, and the history of the Kulikovo battle was written mainly by Moscow chroniclers of the fourteenth century.

There are four ancient Russian sources containing basic information about the battle: "A Short Tale of the Battle of Kulikovo", "A Long Tale of the Battle of the Don", "The Tale of the Battle of Mamai" and "Zadonshchina". The last two works contain a large number of details of doubtful accuracy. Also, information about the Battle of Donskoy is found in Western European chronicles, covering this period and adding new interesting details. In addition, a brief secondary retelling of the Kulikovo massacre is in the “Word about the life and death of the Grand Duke Dmitry Ivanovich”, as well as in The Life of St. Sergius of Radonezh. The fleeting references are preserved in the Order chroniclers of Johann Poshilge and Ditmar Lubeck.


The current assessment of the situation makes it possible to talk about more modest figures of troops participating in the battle. Being a usurper of power in the Horde, Mamai simply could not gather such a large army, which is referred to in a number of descriptions of the Kulikovo battle. In addition, almost all the mentions of his army indicate the presence of mercenaries from among the peoples of Kuban (Pechenegs and Polovtsians), the Caucasus (Alans and Yasy), the Black Sea Coast (Cherkasy and Vagrants) and the Crimea (bezsermen and fryagi), but there is no data on participation in his army of Tatars, as the indigenous inhabitants of the Horde. This cannot but cause surprise, because according to the original idea, Mamai defended the interests of his native nation, speaking on its behalf. Apparently, they are not without grounds for the statement that he himself was a mercenary, representing a third interested party, for example, the same Lithuanians or Genoa, who wants to eliminate competition in the person of Russian merchants in Crimea. Then the participation of the Genoese on the side of Mamai and the strange temporary pause, which Temnik had kept before the performance, is quite understandable. Expecting their support, Mamai could pay dearly for this, because on the other hand, Tokhtamysh’s troops threatened him.

In “Zadonshchina”, as well as the “Tale of the Mamai Massacre” written on its basis, the combined army of Mamaia is described as a huge and well-armed two hundred thousandth army. After much research, historians still tend to assume that this figure needs to be reduced by a factor of 6-10. A similarly exaggerated number of Russian troops participating in the battle can be subjected to such criticism. The number of one hundred and fifty-two hundred thousand seems fantastic. There is evidence that the army of Dmitry consisted of only six regiments. On this basis, as well as having information about the average number of inhabitants of Russia in that era, scientists assume that the number of soldiers of the Russian prince could not exceed twenty-five to forty thousand people. In addition, since 15 in August, when the collection was announced, and before the twentieth of this month, when the army began a demonstration from Kolomna, it is simply unthinkable to assemble and organize a hundred thousandth army. The lack of mention of a large number of prisoners also prompts reflection on the number of warring parties.

There are also a number of contradictions with the location of the field on which the battle of Kulikovo took place. After the first study of the chronicles and maps of 18-19 of the centuries, it was stated that the real battlefield is located in the south of the present Tula region between the Nepryadva and Don rivers. But neither a large number of human remains or mass graves, nor substantive confirmations in the form of spearheads or other types or parts were found at the alleged site of the battle. weapons that time.

The small number of items found after the brutal slaughter found in this place is easily explained from the point of view of the canonical supporters of the current version. Swords, shields, armor and spears were very valuable, and the winners tried to take with them everything found on the battlefield.


An even more detailed study of the primary sources that reached contemporaries suggested that the Don River meant not the modern Don, which was then called Tanais, but a completely different river. The reason for the mistake was the use of the word “don” itself, which then was synonymous with the word “river”. A number of scientists are inclined to believe that the events took place near Moscow, not far from the Simonov monastery or even at the place of its construction. Here, by the way, the remains of at least two heroes of the Kulikovo battle, Oslyabya and Peresvet, are buried. It would be quite natural to believe that the bodies of the soldiers were buried near the battlefield, and did not travel for several weeks to the suburbs of Moscow.



Inhabitants of the newly re-opened Church of the Nativity of the Virgin claim that around it, within a radius of hundreds of meters, the land is several meters deep literally packed with human remains, which construction workers constantly ran into during land works.

This version, of course, does not claim to be the ultimate truth, but the same idea is confirmed by the study of the geographical details of the area near the Simonov monastery, where the Moscow River is located, into which the Sara river flowed into those days. The small river Nepryadva, which flowed right through the battlefield, could well turn out to be the river Naprudnaya, which is in Moscow on Kulishki. In the process of reconstruction of ancient texts, the names could be partially changed.

The origin of the name “Kulikovo Field” is not completely clear. The traditional historical version connects it with the curlews (steppe waders) that were established in the district. However, this epithet was used only once, and then immediately forgotten, as if it did not exist. Another common version is based on folk "kulikkah" (kulichkah), as a very remote place. Other modern scholars agree that the name comes from the word "swarm" - an even and treeless place on the river bank. It should be noted that in the early chronicles there was no such word at all, the battle simply indicates how it was taking place at the point where the Nyadryadva river flows into the Don.


Of course, it can be argued that the Kulikovo triumph was the largest at that time in the history of battles with the Tatars, and it was achieved through the joint efforts of many principalities. But…. About sixty percent of the entire command staff of our troops and about a third of all soldiers died in the battle. And when the wagons carrying wounded warriors fell behind the main forces, the Lithuanians Yagailo and some Ryazan troops mercilessly finished off and plundered them. Later, Tokhtamysh managed to unite the split Horde and after a couple of years went to deal with the recalcitrant Russians. Almost the entire population of Moscow was massacred, and the survivors were taken prisoner. The city was burned, and almost the entire culture of the principality perished in the fire, since, fleeing from the basurman, the local residents brought all the values ​​to the capital. Payment of tribute was also resumed, and Vasily, the eldest son of Dmitry Donskoy, went to the Horde as a hostage. Half a century after the reign of Dmitry Ivanovich, the assessment of the Kulikovo battle began to change. The Moscow rulers, gaining more and more political weight, were in dire need of a glorious great ancestor - the winner of the hated Tatars. Therefore, on the pages of The Tale, Dmitry Ivanovich appears as a full-fledged autocrat, and the princes are his loyal companions, which in no other way could be in the 14th century.

Apparently, our descendants will still have something to think about, because the Truth is known only to witnesses of those memorable events, and, alas, they have long been absent in this frail light. The Kulikovo battle and the events preceding it keep many, many secrets. For example, you can find out for a long time why some documents and annals tell about the blessing of Prince Dmitry to the battle of Sergius of Radonezh, while others talk about the separation of the prince from the church directly before the Kulikovo battle. Despite the fact that research scientists do not have reliable data about any discord between the saint and the prince, behind the meager lines of the chronicles some facts about their conflict can be seen, for example, in these years, the igumen did not baptize the sons of the sovereign. And reconciliation, most likely, occurred five years after the battle, when Sergius helped Dmitry Donskoy to resolve the Moscow-Ryazan conflict. There is evidence that in the 1380 year, Dmitry received a blessing from the Kolomna bishop Gerasim.

Discussions also arise around the degree of participation of the main “hero” of events - Prince Dmitry Ivanovich, who, according to some sources, avoided managing the battle, and Vladimir Serpukhovsky had to lead the army. The prince also took off his armor and, handing them along with the horse and the beloved boyar Brenku, changed into other people's clothes. Such a description of events is rather doubtful, even without taking into account attempts to blacken the reputation of a glorious Russian leader. Suffice it to recall the structure of the armor, their values ​​and the enormous prestige of the Russian princes, without whom the squad simply refused to go into battle. The reason for the absence of Dmitry directly on the battlefield, apparently, will remain secret, exactly, as well as why he and the other Russian princes did not continue the struggle against the Tatar-Mongol yoke, so successfully begun. And here is another mystery. How to understand the old Russian saying that every resident of our country knows: “Like Mamai passed!” Not Tokhtamysh, Baty or Devlet-Girey, namely Mamai. Mamai, who was defeated on the border of the Russian land in a deserted place.

Although the Kulikovo battle was greatly embellished by the chroniclers of the later periods, the discrepancy between the actual circumstances and the dust covered works of time does not detract from the heroism of those who fought on this field for the Russian lands, wherever it actually is. The Kulikovo battle is the main military episode of the XIV-th century of Russian history and a turning point that replaced the era of endless Tatar robberies, bloody, and humiliating princely "fights." From this point in time, little Moscow began its journey to the center of European politics, and in Russia a spiritual upswing began, a change in the psychology of our ancestors, who had overcome oppression and despair, fed the country over generations of terror and plunder.



Today, there are already four main camps, interpreting the events that took place on the Kulikovo field in their own way. For example, traditionalists adhere to a conservative version, and supporters of the “Orthodox” interpretation strongly mythologize the battle, focusing on the confrontation between Christian Russia and the steppe gentiles. Adherents of the “liberal hypercritics” believe that Dmitry Donskoy merely defended the Tatar king from the impostor and usurper Mamai. Their opponents reasonably ask, why then did Tokhtamysh destroy Moscow in two years? The last "Eurasian" camp is represented mainly by modern Tatar historians. Their opinion is that the Kulikov battle is undeservedly exaggerated, it arouses interethnic hostility and is only a minor skirmish between two rulers who perceive their possessions as “subjects” of one “federation” (like the princes of the Holy Roman Empire). The leadership of Tatarstan, opposes the celebration of the anniversary of the Mamayev massacre, and the echoes of this position have recently been heard from the Kremlin. However, the political weight of the supporters of this theory does not make it true.

Supporters of the “four views” do not want to try to unite their forces, and on the basis of constant accusations, truly charlatan interpretations of history flourish. We must know what happened in the distant past of our Motherland. How our ancestors saw this battle, what imprint in culture left legends. Retaining the right to choose a “beautiful” myth or “boring” reality, we must make this choice consciously and responsibly.

Information sources:
-http: //www.vokrugsveta.ru/telegraph/history/427/
-http: //www.diletant.ru/blogs/2815/101/
-http: //x-files.org.ua/articles.php? article_id = 2742
-http: //pereformat.ru/2013/01/kulikovskaya-bitva/
-http: //ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/
173 comments
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  1. +20
    27 February 2013 08: 06
    The first time I heard that the Kulikovo battle was not the words of the Tatar boys in a remote village near Tobolsk. To my question, where did they answer such data, "Mulla told us." Hehe ... It was in 1989-90, I don't remember exactly. Before the GKChP putsch, for sure. Article minus. You can argue about the reasons, the number of political aspects, and so on. Look for remains on the battlefields, traces of some sort. Stupid.
    Want to check drive to Catalunian fields- where Belisarius defeated the Huns.
    Or under the noble city of Poitiers where Karl Martell defeated Muslim troops, stopping the Arab invasion of Europe. Maybe you’ll go to Gavgamela where Sasha of Macedonia persuaded the Persians?
    My opinion in most past battles of antiquity is no trace.
    For fans of "exposing" my own history, I want to quote the words of my Tatar sidekick "Don't itch, don't scratch!" Hehehe wise words.
    1. +2
      27 February 2013 08: 20
      Oh, these Wikiznavtsy, heap porridge.
    2. Earthman
      +2
      27 February 2013 08: 34
      Quote: Nagaibak
      The first time I heard that the Kulikovo battle was not the words of the Tatar boys in a remote village near Tobolsk. To my question, where did they answer such data, "Mulla told us." Hehe ... It was in 1989-90, I don't remember exactly. Before the GKChP putsch, for sure. Article minus. You can argue about the reasons, the number of political aspects, and so on. Look for remains on the battlefields, traces of some sort. Stupid.
      Want to check drive to Catalunian fields- where Belisarius defeated the Huns.
      Or under the noble city of Poitiers where Karl Martell defeated Muslim troops, stopping the Arab invasion of Europe. Maybe you’ll go to Gavgamela where Sasha of Macedonia persuaded the Persians?
      My opinion in most past battles of antiquity is no trace.
      For fans of "exposing" my own history, I want to quote the words of my Tatar sidekick "Don't itch, don't scratch!" Hehehe wise words.

      I thought on the site they’re interested in serious things, but at the output some speculations of amateurs
      1. +12
        27 February 2013 09: 17
        Earthman "I thought on the site they are interested in serious things, but at the exit there are only conjectures of amateurs"
        And what is amateurism? In my opinion, the conjectures of amateurs were described above in the article !!! You go across the fields of the past battles on caravans crawling in search of arrows and spears - so in vain !!!
        Or can we question all the battles and battles that the Kazakhs won over the Dzungars? On the same basis. Are there still arrows, bones, etc., lying under your feet? Or not? So these battles and victories are not recorded at all in written sources. And on this basis we can say that the oral work of the Kazakh people does not correspond to reality? Just do not expose everything and everyone. And engage in normal science without bias.
        1. Earthman
          +11
          27 February 2013 09: 19
          Quote: Nagaibak


          Nagaibak

          Sorry, but you misunderstood me. I joined your review and said Amateurs - these are the authors from the site. I apologize.
          1. +2
            27 February 2013 09: 28
            Earthman "Sorry, but you misunderstood me"
            You also excuse me for the violent reaction! What to do in this format of communication sometimes brings misunderstanding literally out of the blue ...
            1. Earthman
              -3
              27 February 2013 09: 48
              Quote: Nagaibak
              You also excuse me for the violent reaction! What to do in this format of communication sometimes brings misunderstanding literally out of the blue ...

              I remember that it seems that General Suvorov was a Nagaybak? excuse me. if i am wrong
              1. +6
                27 February 2013 10: 08
                Earthman "I remember that it seems that General Suvorov was a nagaybak?"
                Of course not. By the way, I, too, am not a Nagaybak by nationality. Father- A.V. Suvorov was the commandant of the Nagaybak fortress in Bashkiria, while being, seemingly still a major. In the 50 verst district from the fortress nagaibaki lived.
                1. Che
                  Che
                  +4
                  28 February 2013 11: 35
                  Nagaibak,
                  That is why we need to seriously study our history. We live in an interesting time. So much information has become. Fomenko was right in the fact that our history does not correspond to the Scaligerian chronology. Article +. Very interesting.
                2. s1н7т
                  0
                  28 February 2013 23: 23
                  Quote: Nagaibak
                  was the commandant of the Nagaybak fortress in Bashkiria,

                  But Nagaybak in the Chelyabinsk region, sort of? As I remember right now (dor. Signs) Nagaybaksky Fershampenuaz)))
            2. +7
              27 February 2013 10: 06
              Quote: Nagaibak
              sometimes carries misunderstanding literally out of the blue ...

              I see strange words.
              10-50 words in the form of a set of letters outlined here, do you get red-hot?
              But in real life then, how?
              Well, do not drive tanks in the open spaces of Mother Earth.
              hi wink

              Let's live together, calmly, cheerfully and with jokes. With wise sayings and sober conclusions.
            3. DmitriRazumov
              +12
              27 February 2013 19: 33
              The article generally correctly describes the political, economic and ethnic situation of that time. The battle really took place and its significance for the establishment of the state of Muscovite Russia was evaluated correctly. Numerous confirmations of the event were obtained not only from written sources of that time, but also during excavations conducted for centuries at the site of the alleged battle. More recently, public lectures on TV were dedicated to this great event, during which the director of the museum on the Kulikovo Field (a world-famous scientist) really presented the results of the excavations. unequivocally confirm that in this place the great battle took place. The fact that metal weapons were incredibly expensive in those days (3 rubles a saber, that is, the average income of an average peasant) is also true. Therefore, it is natural that they tried not to leave trophies especially from the winning field. The same explanation should be taken when taking into account the number of sides fighting from both sides. She could not be more than several tens of thousands of armed people. The historical facts are the intrigues of Prince Ryazan, Kotor. really didn’t miss the carts with the wounded and actively intrigued against Dmitry.
              A special place is the feat of Prince Dmitry himself, Kotor. made in advanced battle formations, fighting along with his warriors, thereby making it clear that this battle is not just a princely argument, but a decisive turn in the course of historical development of the fate of the Russian people and the country ....
              1. sq
                +3
                28 February 2013 01: 17
                The article describes the situation of that time rather one-sidedly. There are other versions, reasoned no worse than those presented in the article. Here is more a proposal for a reasoned argument than a claim to the truth.
              2. Wal
                0
                28 February 2013 07: 03
                And who then led the battle from Moscow? Or did they fight spontaneously?
              3. tichsha
                +1
                28 February 2013 17: 23
                very few were found on the Kulikovo field, about 1000 copies! and the number of troops is tens of thousands. on the kulikovo field, even according to the descriptions of the annals, does not fit! maximum there is some kind of cemetery found. but where it really happened needs to be sorted out, many argue that it is near Moscow. Read the new chronology of Nosovsky and Fomenko!
                1. +3
                  28 February 2013 19: 55
                  tichsha,
                  In Moscow, in the Kulishek district, there is simply an immeasurable amount of artifacts and the remains of soldiers. Interestingly, there are no Mongoloids, either there or anywhere else. The strife apparently torn Great Tartary.
                  1. +1
                    28 February 2013 21: 37
                    so it’s right .. Moscow Russia fought with Tartary .. the same Russians whose Tatars were allies of the other nations .. the Mongols were not born there .. German historians came up with the Romanovs
                    1. s1н7т
                      +1
                      28 February 2013 23: 35
                      Quote: arkgrz
                      whose Tatars in the allies were all other nations

                      There were no Tatars, there were Bulgars. Tatars - the Russian word for robbers. And that the Mongols were not there - 100%! The Mongols and Mongolia have never been enough! laughing Everything is invented. Disputes between Russians, some of which attracted steppes from the southern borders for war.
                  2. s1н7т
                    +1
                    28 February 2013 23: 29
                    Quote: Sandov
                    there are no mongoloids

                    Somewhere I saw a picture / illustration with the battle of the Russians with the Tatars - there are Caucasians on both sides. The same equipment, clothes, weapons.
                    And in some annals there is - Tsar Ivan with the Tatars raided ...
                    It seems that our "history" was written from over the hill
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      +2
                      28 February 2013 23: 35
                      the Persians painted with Persian faces. The Chinese depicted everyone with Chinese phenotypes. Europeans painted everyone as Europeans.
                    2. +3
                      6 October 2013 21: 10
                      Quote: with1н7т (5)
                      I saw a picture somewhere

                      This, of course, is an argument. No worse than Fomenko-Nosovsky.
                2. +2
                  6 October 2013 21: 08
                  Quote: tichsha
                  Read the new chronology of Nosovsky and Fomenko!

                  And you first go to first grade, learn to read and write. Then, perhaps, you will begin to understand the chronology. But this is unlikely.
              4. 0
                30 October 2016 20: 33
                words of a wise man .....
      2. +2
        27 February 2013 09: 41
        Quote: Earthman
        I thought on the site they’re interested in serious things, but at the output some speculations of amateurs

        Why would you suddenly associate the author with the entire site? The man tried. I wrote something. He indicated the sources from which he put together his "work": diletant.ru, x-files.org.UA, Wikipedia, a couple of others. Unsurprisingly, the article is puzzling.
        Write and you. If you have something to say on the case. Moreover, you are on the course at what level should not be written.
        1. Earthman
          +1
          27 February 2013 09: 50
          Quote: Nikolai S.
          Why would you suddenly associate the author with the entire site? The man tried. I wrote something. He indicated the sources from which he put together his "work": diletant.ru, x-files.org.UA, Wikipedia, a couple of others. Unsurprisingly, the article is puzzling.
          Write and you. If you have something to say on the case. Moreover, you are on the course at what level should not be written.

          The administration does not seem to allow ordinary users to write articles. What is there to defend the author, if he were looking, he would find more useful information, and would not give arguments for various currents and build hypotheses.

          Excuse me, are you by any chance Nikolay Starikov?
          1. +2
            27 February 2013 10: 08
            Quote: Earthman
            The administration does not seem to allow ordinary users to write articles.

            Why doesn't it? The heading "opinions" exists for this.
          2. +3
            27 February 2013 11: 15
            Quote: Earthman
            The administration does not seem to allow ordinary users to write articles.

            How can they stop the flight of your reasoning, thoughts and desire to gush with words in typewritten text?
            Write (the main thing without swearing and without errors) on an interesting topic or what you understand, but do not forget about the general bias of the resource.
            And Wo-A-La, you are in the TOP!
          3. Beck
            +11
            27 February 2013 14: 46
            Something is wrong the author wrote.

            Mamai was an approximate of Khan Berdibek, who killed his father Khan Dzhanibek. Mamai was married to Berdibek’s sister, which means his daughter Janibek. And during the Memorial, Mamai initially defended the interests of applicants for the khan’s throne from the Berdibek line. Then he began to observe his interests.

            Khan Tokhtamysh, initially, did not rule any lands. At the end of the Memorial, he, as a youth, fled to Samarkand to Amir Timur. He accepted and helped him both materially and morally. Tohtamysh, with the Hordes attached to him, who served with Timur, went along the steppes to the Volga collecting troops and sending labels for the Volga calling not to obey the usurper of power Mamay.

            Prince Dmitry also did not really recognize the legitimate ruler in Mamai and did not pay any "tribute" for 7 years. This could be the reason for Mamai's campaign against Moscow. But in the Kulikovo battle, Mamai was defeated. Mamai gathered a new army and marched against Tokhtamysh, who had crossed the Volga. When the troops were already in battle formations, Mamai's warriors dismounted and knelt on one knee, in recognition of Tokhtamysh as the legitimate khan. Mamai fled to Kafa, where he was killed.

            Also, Prince Dmitry recognized the legal khan in Tokhtamysh. But two years later, what happened in their relationship and Tokhtamysh captured and burned Moscow. But later they agreed and Tokhtamysh gave Dmitry a label confirming the reign of Dmitry in Moscow.

            And Moscow did not begin its journey with the Battle of Kulikovo. By this time, Moscow was already the center of Russia.

            During the time of the Khan of Uzbek, 1313-1341. Moscow was a remote town of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir. Prince Ivan Kalita somehow managed to persuade the Khan of Uzbekistan to abolish Basquality. Once a year, the Baskaki collected tithing - a tax. Instead, Ivan Kalita began to collect tax from all over Russia. All the money was taken to Moscow, recorded, signed and already centrally sent from Moscow to the Horde. In addition, Ivan transferred to Moscow the Metropolitan Department from Vladimir. So Moscow became the economic and spiritual center of Russia. And the great Vladimir has faded since then.

            To sit on the money and not use it like that, and then it was a sin. Prince Ivan and enjoyed. Therefore, he received the Turkic nickname - Ivan Kalta. Kalta - pocket, a small bag on his belt. That is, Ivan Karmannik. The construction of Russian words provides for an almost obligatory alternation of consonants and vowels, therefore, in the Russian pronunciation, the letter I was inserted between the letters L and T. The result was Kalita. Prince Ivan Kalita.
            1. +5
              27 February 2013 15: 21
              Hi Beck. I look, you have significantly increased your historical knowledge since my last visit here. And he said that you do not read books.

              Quote: Beck
              Mamai was married to Berdibek’s sister, which means his daughter Janibek.

              Is it okay that "many say" that in fact Mamai was married to Berdibek's daughter? Look, at least here: www.hrono.ru/biograf/bio_m/mamai.php
              Then I have no time to pinch you. But there is a reason.

              And why have you taken off your epaulettes a couple of times? Are you throwing yourself at people?
              1. Beck
                +3
                27 February 2013 15: 49
                Quote: Nikolai S.
                Hi Beck


                Hi Hi!

                It could have been mistaken, from memory after all. Let the daughter of Berdibek. The essence does not change, Genghis blood.

                Quote: Nikolai S.
                And why have you taken off your epaulettes a couple of times? Are you throwing yourself at people?


                And this is like in 30 years. For political reasons. I enter into disputes with hurray patriots. That pluck from all sides. If the valid 30 years, then would have been shot.
              2. 0
                27 October 2016 13: 29
                Quote: Nikolai S.
                And why have you taken off your epaulettes a couple of times? Are you throwing yourself at people?

                in what prompt them really remove prompt? I went to the site for about three months from someone else’s computer, and accordingly did not write anything, and as a result I became a lieutenant instead of a captain ... FOR WHAT ?????
            2. spanchbob
              +2
              27 February 2013 21: 42
              Tokhtamysh fought for power not with the "usurper" Mamai, but with the legitimate Khan Uruskhan. Dmitry could not pay tribute to Mamai because the latter was just a rebel who did not demand tribute (and could not). It all started with the fact that Sergei of Radonezh and Patriarch Alexei killed Ambassador Mamai (fearing Dmitry's break with the Golden Horde). Totamysh could not participate in the battle because Therefore, Dmitry had to fight alone against the combined forces of the Genoese, Mamai, Lithuanians, Ukrainian and Belarusian regiments (although the last three did not make it to the battle and were late, they only chopped off Dmitry's lagging baggage and the wounded after the battle) L. Gumilyov.
              1. sq
                0
                28 February 2013 01: 20
                There is another version regarding the participation of Litvin-Belarusians in these events.
              2. +3
                28 February 2013 21: 27
                What is the Patriarch and St. Rev. Sergius killed the ambassador. Probably a prayer. A big lie is probably hard to come up with. Patriarch Alexy himself was in the Horde and even cured Janibek's wife of blindness.
                1. Marek Rozny
                  -3
                  28 February 2013 22: 01
                  Here is a quote from Gumilyov (in abbreviation), which Spanchbob apparently meant:

                  "An ardent supporter of the war with the Tatars was the adherent of Sergius of Suzdal Bishop Dionysius. Since Suzdal was a small city, essentially a fortress, Bishop Dionysius lived in the rich Nizhny Novgorod, which belonged to the Suzdal princes. And when Mamai sent an embassy there to agree on peace and union, Bishop Dionysius turned the people against the Tatars.
                  The Nizhny Novgorod mob attacked the embassy ... All the Tatars were put to death in the most cruel way: they, stripping naked, were released onto the Volga ice and poisoned by dogs.
                  Mom, having come to this with indignation, sent to the city ... Tsarevich Arapshah ...
                  The Suzdal princes were taken by surprise, and on the Pyana River (it is curious that many Suzdal people were really drunk then) their troops were cut down by the Arapshah warriors. After that, Nizhny Novgorod was taken and a massacre was carried out there. "
              3. +1
                28 February 2013 23: 15
                Like Uruskhan is consonant with Urus Khan, Russian Khan, what the hell is that?
                1. Marek Rozny
                  -2
                  28 February 2013 23: 39
                  here there is a confusion of concepts. The name Urus (Urys) literally means "impudent, pugnacious". This is a common name among the Turks.
                  And the Russians were called "orys" ("orus"). But the Russians themselves, trying to reproduce this word, write "urus".
                  And now in the end they have such a misunderstanding)))
                  1. +1
                    1 March 2013 20: 45
                    Maybe that’s why the Urus of the Turks means impudent, because the Russians are impudent, bold, courageous, etc.?
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      -1
                      4 March 2013 14: 44
                      These are different words in Turkic and other Asian languages! Orys (orus) is Russian, and urys (urus) is pugnacious (from the verb uru - to beat, to fight). The Turks and Mongols pronounced the ethnonym "Russian" as best they could in their own language - Orus. There has never been an attachment to the word "urus".
                      In Chinese, Russian is "olos". This is a tracing paper from the Turkic language (in Chinese there is no phoneme "r", they usually replace this sound with the sound "l").
                      And the Russians mixed these two completely different words, which sound almost the same in the Russian ear.
          4. 0
            28 February 2013 19: 57
            Earthman,
            Express your thoughts in opinions. And Nikolai Starikov is a good author, read his stuff. Competently and intelligibly decomposes amers on the shelves. Article +++
      3. 0
        26 November 2016 19: 09
        [/ Quote]
        Quote: Earthman
        [quote = Nagaybak] The first time I heard that the Kulikovo battle was not the words of the Tatar boys in a remote village near Tobolsk. To my question, where did they answer such data, "Mulla told us." Hehe ... It was in 1989-90, I don't remember exactly. Before the GKChP putsch, for sure. Article minus. You can argue about the reasons, the number of political aspects, and so on. Look for remains on the battlefields, traces of some sort. Stupid.
        Want to check drive to Catalunian fields- where Belisarius defeated the Huns.
        Or under the noble city of Poitiers where Karl Martell defeated Muslim troops, stopping the Arab invasion of Europe. Maybe you’ll go to Gavgamela where Sasha of Macedonia persuaded the Persians?
        My opinion in most past battles of antiquity is no trace.
        For fans of "exposing" my own history, I want to quote the words of my Tatar sidekick "Don't itch, don't scratch!" Hehehe wise words.

        I thought on the site they’re interested in serious things, but at the output some speculations of amateurs

        so this is which side to look at! often reading history, one gets the impression that this is just noise, and the more historical facts, the more difficult it is to see the truth!
        an intelligent person said that history repeats itself, and this at least gives reason to interpret events differently ...
        for example, events that are more or less familiar to us allow us to think about what happened in those days too, for example, Western expansion to the east failed, so please, this is not us, these are Tatars ...
        from the east they came to "Hungary" occupied "Austria", these are not those from the east who are in the east, but those from the east who are even further, and generally the first are under the yoke of the second ... (well, the USSR is direct, when all the republics under occupation)
        and the events in "Ukraine" now, it’s an echo of all the same events of the confrontation between west and east, and even their essence is the same, it’s tearing the smaller from the big, differently, divide and conquer
        as people say, there is a joke in every joke, that is, in all texts there is truth, but ... they need to be interpreted based on the events of today, yesterday, half a century ago, centuries-old.
        the events are fleeting, but the essence of the events is laid down by history, this is to the fact that you can describe the events for the sake of someone who is more perspicacious and persistent, but their essence .... it is often predetermined by the events of bygone days ...!
    3. +2
      27 February 2013 10: 17
      Quote: Nagaibak
      the Tatars in a remote village near Tobolsk.

      The "deafness" of those places can be briefly reviewed on these LJ pages:
      http://russiantowns.livejournal.com/1118458.html
      1. +3
        27 February 2013 13: 10
        "Papakiko" About the "deafness" of those places, you can quickly familiarize yourself with these LJ pages:
        Everything is true somehow. I looked there in LJ. Only a comrade writes about continuous Tatar villages around Tobolsk. Actually there is a strip of hair. The Russian village, followed by the Tatar, then again the Russian. Ermakovskie places hehe ..
    4. +3
      27 February 2013 12: 27
      By the way, French archaeologists excavated on the Catalunian fields and found a skull, according to scientists of one of the participants in that battle. And what was their surprise when, after reconstruction, Mongloid features appeared on them. And on the account of the fact that someone smashed whom, this is still a grandmother for two said. After all, after this, the Huns entered invaded the Roman Empire and forced the Romans to pay tribute.
      1. +3
        27 February 2013 13: 12
        redcod "By the way, French archaeologists excavated the Catalaunian fields and found a skull."
        Or maybe this guest worker got lost there? In general, one skull is serious.
        1. -1
          27 February 2013 14: 24
          Quote: Nagaibak
          Or maybe this guest worker got lost there? In general, one skull is serious.

          Well, if we are talking about one skull from the cultural layer of the time of the invasion of the Huns, then this is very serious. And then the skull was random, and not specially prepared. And the excavations were not by Mongolian archaeologists, but by the French.
      2. +4
        27 February 2013 15: 01
        redcod,
        And on the account of the fact that someone smashed whom, this is still a grandmother for two said. After all, after this, the Huns entered invaded the Roman Empire and forced the Romans to pay tribute .-- AS AS the Huns did not even know that they had won !!!! and therefore they quickly faded from there !! and then someone and their ATTILU banged !!! and they themselves have sunk into oblivion, as if there were never any Huns !!!! although the Hungarians are pushing, trying to prove to everyone that they are the very Huns !!! wink
        1. Marek Rozny
          +1
          27 February 2013 19: 21
          Immediately after the battle on the Catalunian fields, already in 452 the Huns returned to Italy and defeated all that they met along the way. And already at the walls of Rome the Pope Leo the 1st came to the Huns and knelt, begging not to destroy the city. Attila received a huge tribute from Rome.
        2. +2
          28 February 2013 11: 07
          Not only the Hungarians, as you say, "push", but all the Turkic-speaking peoples also consider the Huns as their ancestors. And the subsequent events speak about the assessment of the Catalaun battle. Rome had no strength left to resist the invasion of Attila.
          1. Marek Rozny
            +2
            28 February 2013 11: 19
            I add that the Hungarians consider the Turkic peoples as their closest relatives.
            1. s1н7т
              0
              28 February 2013 23: 47
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Hungarians consider Turkic peoples as their closest

              Does science seem to relate them to the Ugrians, or have I forgotten something? And so all the nations are brothers laughing
              1. Marek Rozny
                +1
                28 February 2013 23: 58
                They rewrote science))) Hungary officially now leads the history of its people from the Turkic nomads) But their language is really Finno-Ugric. There are today's Turks - yesterday they were Greek-speaking Byzantines, and now they only speak Turkic.
            2. +1
              23 October 2016 19: 29
              Actually, at the beginning of the 5th century, the Turkic ethnic group still did not smell. Especially in the 4th century, when the power of Attila was matured and created.
              1. 0
                26 November 2016 19: 15
                Quote: andrew42
                Actually, at the beginning of the 5th century, the Turkic ethnic group still did not smell. Especially in the 4th century, when the power of Attila was matured and created.

                they did not smell at the end of the last century, but there were Turkic-speaking tribes! wink
          2. 0
            28 February 2013 21: 29
            As well as Moscow after the Battle of Kulikovo
    5. +9
      27 February 2013 12: 40
      Quote: Nagaibak
      Want to check drive to Catalunian fields- where Belisarius defeated the Huns

      And not Aetius? Belisarius, it seems, lived a century later also on the Eastern Empire.
      1. +3
        27 February 2013 13: 00
        Prometey "And not Aetius?"
        True Aetius, thanks for the correction !!! This is essentially ...
    6. 0
      27 February 2013 14: 57
      Nagaibak,
      Do you want to check drive to the Catalunian fields, where Belisarius defeated the Huns .- generally not Belisarius, but AETIUM !!! that was the name of the Roman commander who defeated the Huns ATTILA !!!
      1. +1
        27 February 2013 15: 08
        datur "If you want to check, drive to the Catalunian fields, where Belisarius defeated the Huns. --- actually not Belisarius, but AEZIUS !!"
        And thank you for the correction !!! I kind of already know !!!
      2. Beck
        +2
        27 February 2013 16: 09
        Quote: datur
        Do you want to check drive to the Catalunian fields, where Belisarius defeated the Huns .- generally not Belisarius, but AETIUM !!! that was the name of the Roman commander who defeated the Huns ATTILA !!!


        I would make a correction. The battle in 451 on the Catalunian fields most likely ended in a draw. Because it is very difficult to explain that the next year Atilla invaded northern Italy and marched on a march to Rome. Attila did not capture Rome only because the Roman embassy led by the Pope came out to meet him. Rome recognized the supremacy of the Huns. As a sign of confirmation of his submission, the sister of the Roman Emperor was extradited for Attila and a huge monetary dowry was collected by bones. This was one of the reasons for the subsequent fall of Rome in 476. They say there was no money to pay mercenaries to the Odoacra Germans.

        In addition, according to some sources, Aetius and Atilla knew each other and quite well. Aetius in his youth, among other children of noble Roman families, was in amantas (hostages) at the Hunnish court. Then he returned to Rome. And he was appointed commander of the Roman army, so to
        as senators suggested that he should know the tactics of the Hunnic battle.
  2. -1
    27 February 2013 08: 07
    Oh, these Wikiznavtsy, heap porridge.
  3. +6
    27 February 2013 09: 37
    We must know what happened in the distant past of our homeland.
    A good call ... But how to fulfill this "must" if there are no real chronicles, and the story is built on various mutually exclusive, almost fictional works.
    One thing is clear and understandable: two Rome OO and floated, Moscow is the third Rome, and the fourth will not happen!
    So Russia is and will be!
    But where is this Horde, where are the Mongols, where is Byzantium with Rome? Not all of them. But those who are trying to take their place in power through the history and under the guise of Genghis Khan, Mamaev, Emperors, Caesars muddy the water and powder the brains of nations remain and reappear ...

    On x ... from the beach !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    1. +2
      28 February 2013 11: 25
      Mom, to scare Donskoy used to say:
      - We are darkness!
      To which Dmitry replied:
      - And we are a army!
  4. Yoshkin Kot
    +6
    27 February 2013 09: 37
    oh well, this author is at least sane, unlike our noble elfof Fomenkovtso-Nosov dolboslavy
    1. +1
      27 February 2013 10: 11
      Yoshkin Cat
      "oh well, the given author is at least sane, unlike our noble elf Fomenkovtso-Nosov dolboslavs"
      It is hard to disagree with you !!!
      1. +3
        28 February 2013 16: 12
        Yes, he almost word for word repeated the Fomenkov version of events, what does sanity have to do with it?
        Another thing is that there is practically no real information about those times, in reality there is only a set of mutually contradictory interpretations of a small group of initial facts and archaeological finds.
        Here is each of his understanding and is trying to extract from non-existence a real totality of events.
      2. 0
        28 February 2013 21: 52
        it's hard to disagree like that ... probably because the doctor of historical sciences see .. u knows the damn .. but the nosovsky kid .. something trying to explore there .. loshara.
    2. 0
      27 February 2013 10: 49
      Quote: Yoshkin Cat
      given author at least sane


      A rare case when I agree with you.
      1. +1
        28 February 2013 21: 45
        What is he sane if he contradicts himself? If Dmitry Donskoy defeated the Mamai usurper - the enemy of Tokhtamysh, then why after 2 years Tokhtamysh burns Moscow? Something does not really converge.
        But I do not understand something else. Why everything that has come down to us as the glory of Russian weapons must be "crap" in any way. It's hard to find another word.
        1. Marek Rozny
          +2
          28 February 2013 22: 12
          1) Tokhtamysh exploded because He believed the denunciation of the Suzdal princes Vasily and Semyon, who informed the khan that Dmitry went on rapprochement with Lithuania (which until recently was on the side of Mamaia).
          2) The point is that the Battle of Kulikovo is presented to us as a victory of the Russian people over the Horde. And Mamai did not really represent Orda. And he had a hired army - both Russians and Caucasians and Italians. What is this victory in the "Tatar-Mongol yoke"? This is the point.
        2. +2
          6 October 2013 21: 44
          Quote: GregAzov
          But I don’t understand

          I will try to explain.

          If Dmitry Donskoy defeated the Mamai usurper - the enemy of Tokhtamysh, then why after 2 of the year Tokhtamysh burns Moscow?

          What surprises you? The deceit of politicians? That's news! Yes, only God knows where the cat ran there. How do you like the version that Tokhtamysh just wanted to interfere in Russian affairs in the old fashioned way and influence the political situation? Fortunately, there were plenty of princes to choose from. And it is well known how these same princes knew how to intrigue and whom they hired for their intrigues. No one has surpassed A. Tarkovsky in the imagery of the narrative of Andrei Rublev.
          And politics is a complicated and not always clear business. There, even Dmitry himself later married his daughter Oleg, Fyodor Olegovich, to his daughter.

          Why everything that has come down to us as the glory of Russian weapons must be "crap" in any way. It's hard to find another word.

          Why, in this case, it is quite capable. The author of the article simply outlined all the versions known for today concerning only TWO points: the EXACT location of the Kulikovo battle (somehow no one doubts its fact, there is evidence even in Western European sources (although not the most detailed), which indicates the uncommonness of the event ("Enlightened Europe" and in those days considered it beneath its dignity to engage in the description of the life of some barbarians)) and the QUANTITY of soldiers from both sides.
          Historians have been concerned with these questions for a long time, both in the times of the Russian Empire and in Soviet times. In the 1970s, in "Technology for Youth" in the section "Antalogy of Mysterious Cases" these issues were discussed more than once, I advise you to read them before indiscriminately accusing Lyubov of "smearing" our history. Now this process has really become fashionable, but in this case, in my opinion, by.
    3. dema46
      +4
      28 February 2013 12: 19
      Apparently, the criterion for everyone is the level of the yoshkin cat, from him and we dance?
      1. +2
        28 February 2013 20: 04
        dema46,
        I agree. They do not want to know their past, but it's a pity.
      2. 0
        28 February 2013 21: 55
        he is ignorant .. and even stubborn yet .. but surely flogs. . own point of view
    4. 0
      28 February 2013 21: 49
      a great historian to see .. where such confidence? this one speaks correctly and this one lies and comes up with? il, you may have conducted research yourself .. spent nights in libraries? .. damn the less in the pumpkin the more confidently cuts the truth the uterus = (..
    5. 0
      26 November 2016 19: 33
      often reading history, one gets the impression that this is just noise, and the more historical facts, the more difficult it is to see the truth!
      an intelligent person said that history repeats itself, and this at least gives reason to interpret events differently ...
      for example, events that are more or less familiar to us allow us to think about what happened in those days too, for example, Western expansion to the east failed, so please, this is not us, these are Tatars ...
      from the east they came to "Hungary" occupied "Austria", these are not those from the east who are in the east, but those from the east who are even further, and generally the first are under the yoke of the second ... (well, the USSR is direct, when all the republics under occupation)
      and the events in "Ukraine" now, it’s an echo of all the same events of the confrontation between west and east, and even their essence is the same, it’s tearing the smaller from the big, differently, divide and conquer
      as people say, there is a joke in every joke, that is, in all texts there is truth, but ... they need to be interpreted based on the events of today, yesterday, half a century ago, centuries-old.
      the events are fleeting, but the essence of the events is laid down by history, this is to the fact that you can describe the events for the sake of someone who is more perspicacious and persistent, but their essence .... it is often predetermined by the events of bygone days ...!
      There is nothing more far-fetched than history.
      Life, however fleeting, in terms of its variability, leaves its mark. And first of all, on a person - a participant in the events, but also on others, those who did not directly participate in the events, but who are part of the circle of people who were there. And the formation of the perception of these events among others lies with the direct participants in these events.
      But there are others. Who sees himself above an event (s), they then form history for a generation (s) forward to please themselves. And there may be many, but the most persistent will form the perception of the history of future generations ... and these are the most interested.
      If we take the assertion "history repeats itself" as a basis, and superimpose one period of time in the history of Russia, and indeed the entire world, on another, then we can see certain similarities. These are periods of the current time, several decades ago, and the time of 70 years ago and a century ago ..., and so you can go deeper, further to ... the limit.
      If we take the history of Russia, then obviously the need of the West to unite in order to defeat Russia, to subjugate ...
      But Russia is not a panacea and not the only one, but rather the heiress of that great state that occupied the entire territory now called Eurasia ....
      And to begin to understand modernity, you need to look as far as possible. After all, the confrontation between east and west can be seen in the whole history, which, as always, at all times was in contact, now it is called Europe, and if territorially, the states under the USSR called them the Warsaw Pact countries. But this was not a confrontation between the West and Russia, Russia, as such did not exist at that time, but the first breakaway territories of Eurasia from the large, united state with the heirs of those or other regions adjacent to them.
      And as an example, these are the battles of Alexander Nevsky, and Dmitry Donskoy, and Baty in the so-called Hungary, and the so-called Poles in Moscow, and the Swede near Poltava, and Napoleon in Moscow, and Hitler near Stalingrad. And each time it was a united Europe, no matter how they were called a Swede near Poltava, a Frenchman in Moscow or Hitler near Stalingrad.
      You can even explain the reason for the appearance of Russians in Berlin, Paris, and in other parts of Western Europe - this is an attempt to stop the next unification of this horde ...
      Getting acquainted with the history, especially Russia, one gets the feeling that this is a condensed history of all of Eurasia.
      If you stretch the borders of the Golden, White and Blue Hordes, you get Russia, the European Union and the countries of the Middle and Far East, respectively.
      In general, observing the confrontation between east and west, and getting acquainted with history, there is a perception that religion is the law!
      In the absence of legislation in the form in which we now know it, the law was what is now called religion. And to belong to any religion, it is to live by the rules and laws of one ruler.
      There are three competing religions in the world, Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and Islam.
      We can only speculate about primacy, but rather assume that Orthodoxy, in the form in which we see it now, is only a small part of true Orthodoxy. And first of all, because each new ruler formed his own league of saints, and first of all this statement concerns the change of dynasty and the coming to power of the Romanovs ... Generally speaking, each new government has its own saints and communists! .. .
      Catholicism is the first attempt to reject common ancestors and the formation of its own law, but the attempt is not so successful, or rather successful, but not so obvious.
      Islam, the most modern religion, especially its radical manifestations. If you touch Islam on the territory of Russia, then still initially, even it was tied to the veneration and worship of ancestors. Islam recognizes the prophets common to Christianity, but rejects the manifestation of the father and the spirit of the father in the son ...
      This was approximately the case with language. Especially in view of the fact that the formation of languages ​​is happening now. And many that are called borrowings are an echo of that proto-language which underlies all languages. For example, the Russian language that we use now, its basis, was formed at the turn of the 18-19 centuries.
      It is worth touching on the form of government.
      All, based on their flavor, principality, khanate had their own ruler, at first they were the heirs of the "supreme", then the heirs of the henchman, and where events took place that rejected the appointee, there was an elected ruler, but who was elected from the "caste" of rulers - princes, voivode ...
      If we talk about the army, it is very similar to the fact that there was a peculiar set, so to speak, of blood tithe. The call took place on the territory of the entire state, the original subjects of which were all the principalities, khanates. And already this contingent subsequently formed the basis of new nationalities, including the Cossacks. Although initially there was not such a large number of genera, families of which subsequently formed nationalities. Those. the masses of people who lived within the city, and belonged to more than one clan or family, were subsequently formed in nationality. And often, if we talk about the territory of Russia, these formations took place at the turn of the 18-19 centuries, if we take the near and far east, then these formations are ongoing now, processes reminiscent of current processes in Ukraine.
      Europe was the first to decide on nationalities. More precisely, its western part.
      This can be seen in the religious wars in Western Europe.
      Liberation from the influence of the Pope can be understood as liberation from the rule of the supreme ruler of the White Horde and the establishment of statehood outside of subordination to the pope. Moreover, a similar process affects all the rulers of the subjects of the White Order, a kind of European Union.
      It is possible, or even necessary, to stress that the rulers of these entities were originally related and because these estates were distributed to their sovereign relatives.
      The same processes, in that era, are taking place on the territory of the Golden Horde. This is Kazan, and Astrakhan, and the territory of the northern Black Sea region, and the North Caucasus, which in essence, as now, were the border territories between the Golden and Blue Hordes (Orders), in this list, you can or rather need to add the territory of modern Ukraine, the territory of which, according to By and large, there was already a border between the three Orders, White, Gold and Blue, and the dispute over which is still going on ...
      The Blue Horde has also undergone significant metamorphoses. At the turn of the 15-16 centuries, it was transformed into a minimum of 4 subjects, now they are called India, China, Persia and the Ottoman Empire. Despite the fact that they were crushed for the entire period from the end of the 17th century, 18-19 centuries, already with the participation of Romanov Russia. The one Russia that the Romanovs were able to create and partly created on the fragments of a fallen empire. And partly this was facilitated by the change of dynasty. The collapse of the Blue Horde itself was initiated by the seizure of the throne by those who in modern history are called the Ottomans.
      Ivan the Terrible was the direct heir to the throne of a large state, which the Ottomans took from his grandmother, which led to the fragmentation of the Blue Horde into the aforementioned ones, showed weakness in power and launched processes throughout Eurasia.
      The first showered Europe.
      1. 0
        26 November 2016 19: 34
        The same processes under the onslaught of another law (we mean Islam) affected Kazan and Astrakhan, as well as the territory of the North Caucasus and parts of Transcaucasia. (You can talk about this when getting acquainted with the arrival of Islam in these territories, about the first beliefs of the peoples inhabiting them)
        It can be said about the territory of the North Caucasus that it is very similar to the fact that it was the tithe with blood that all the subjects of the state paid to form an army, and from which different nationalities were formed (the appearance of the Cossacks, and other peoples of the North Caucasus are permissible). With the territory, now it is called Ukraine, everything is somewhat more complicated, and firstly due to the contact of three orders on this territory, and the rapid transient course of history here from the middle of the 16th to the end of the 19th centuries. At first, that part of the army that adopted the rules of the part of the collapsed blue order (Horde), following the Ottomans, tried to subjugate the emerging Russia, and left the male population at the Battle of Molody. Where the Ottomans have significantly weakened. And then the Ottomans had the problem of retaining the separate territories of the Caucasus, which did not accept Islam, and the territories of southern and southeastern Europe, and the territory of Northern Egypt.
        The Ottoman Empire was divided, and with the participation of Romanov’s Russia, into states that are now represented on the world map as Egypt, Syria, Bulgaria, and other states of northern Africa, southern Europe, and western Asia, including the territory of modern Turkey. Persia was divided, not so long ago, into the territory of Iran, Iraq, and several others. India at least to India and Pakistan. The territory of eastern India, to China, Vietnam, Korea, Japan. With Europe, everything is much more interesting!
        She was the first to decide on the "nationalities", but each time the ruler of a state, after the death of a kind of supreme ruler, inherited his power. And each time he united "Europe" and climbed into the territory of the first Golden Horde, and later into the territory of its legal successor - Russia. And constantly battles took place on the territory of the modern Baltic, the Pskov region, modern Ukraine, less often Moscow.
        At the heart of all the vicissitudes is religion.
        Initially, the main and only faith was belief in ancestors, in their purity and righteousness. The most righteous, now they would be called public figures, formed saints who excelled in the faith of their parents, and were an example for the parent. These holiness and righteousness were the basis for the formation of relations ....
        But the Orthodoxy that we see now is a slightly different Orthodoxy, and primarily because each new ruler forms his own league of saints. This applies to the coming to power of the Romanovs as a whole, and the change between the rulers within the Romanov clan, and this statement applies to a large extent to the events of the early 20th century and the coming to power of the communists.
        The emergence of another religion, in particular Catholicism, is an attempt to form righteousness in the population, forgetting the holiness of the ancestors, and rejecting the ancestors themselves. The population was growing, morals were changing, but there was a need, not so much to control the population itself, but to control so that they did not gobble up each other. And already the appearance of religion forms a desire to control other territories. Those. all who are not in religion are pagans, and there you have faith or not, it does not matter. And this is, first of all, the growth of the territory and the controlled population.
        An attempt to spread Catholicism led to conflicts in the territories that are now called the states of the Baltic states, the Kaliningrad region of Russia, the Pskov region, the territory that is now called Ukraine.
        After the Ottomans seized power in Constantinople, the Blue Horde began to disintegrate. Which in turn pushed the Ottomans to hold her by force. This is a war with an attempt to remove the rulers of certain khanates and replace them with their own, and the emergence of a new religion, which they possibly brought with them. And an unsuccessful attempt to bring to its religion, its law, its rules, the population of a particular khanate, kingdom (the kingdom corresponds to the name of the city, like the khanate and principality), which rejected Islam, led to the genocide of this population.
        But so was the peace movement of Islam. This concerns the attempt, as in the case of Catholicism in the west, to subjugate certain territories of the Golden Horde. This was partially possible and led to Islam at the turn of the 15-16 centuries in the territory of modern Tatarstan, Bashkiria, part of the North Caucasus.
        Along with the advent of new laws, read religion, language also joined the movement. This was another factor and an attempt to separate, or to be separated from one part and attached to another. Those
        1. 0
          26 November 2016 19: 35
          the question is, what lies in this interpretation of the boxes?
  5. gribnik777
    +4
    27 February 2013 09: 45
    The history of the formation of the Russian state, its gathering around Moscow, beginning with the reign of Daniel of Moscow (son of Alexander Nevsky), is well described in a series of books by Dmitry Mikhailovich Balashov "The Sovereigns of Moscow".
    These books are also interesting for those that, in addition to the artistic narrative, they give a detailed causal analysis of various events (descriptions of the actions and characters of the heroes are adapted to this). Quotations from genuine documents and annals are given.
    Of course, this is just one of the versions, but very curious and intelligibly presented.
    The series of books is large, but worth reading. This is much more useful than spending time on the TV or on the network.
    1. FATEMOGAN
      +10
      27 February 2013 15: 05
      I would like to draw attention to what else, besides the Battle of Kulikovo, which is often discussed, there is a battle about which very little is written, but which is equivalent to both Kulikovskaya and Borodinskaya itself, this is the Battle of Molodinsky. I try to be interested in history, but I found out about this battle quite recently, I thought that I was only ignorant of it, so, for the sake of interest, I asked friends and acquaintances, everyone knows the Battle of Kulikovo or Borodinskaya, and nobody knows about Molodinsky. But it was precisely after it that the Crimean Tatars were never able to recover as a military force. If anyone is interested, I advise you to read an interesting book about this undeservedly forgotten, great battle - Ananiev Gennady. “Molodinsky battle. Risk "

      Short description :
      The Battle of Molodyakh or the Molodynsky Battle is a major battle that took place between July 29 and August 2, 1572, 50 versts south of Moscow, in which Russian troops came together in battle, led by the voivode Prince Mikhail Vorotynsky and the army of the Crimean Khan Devlet I Girey, Turkish troops and Nogai troops. Despite significant numerical superiority, the Turkish-Crimean army was put to flight and almost completely killed.
      In its significance, the battle of Molodi is comparable to Kulikovskaya and other key battles in Russian history. The victory in the battle allowed Russia to maintain independence and became a turning point in the confrontation between the Russian kingdom and the Crimean Khanate, which abandoned claims to the Kazan and Astrakhan Khanates and henceforth lost most of its power. The Battle of Molodinsk is the result of the most distant military campaign of Turkish troops in Europe.
      The prerequisites leading to this event should be sought twenty years earlier, in the early 50s of the 1552th century. It was then that the strengthened Russian state, led by the strong hand of Ivan the Terrible, put an end to instability on its eastern and southeastern borders, conquering the Kazan in XNUMX, and four years later the Astrakhan Khanates, which were entirely part of the geopolitical interests of the Ottoman Empire, which was located at that time. time at the zenith of its power ..
      As a result of such brilliant successes in the foreign policy arena, the princes Gorsky and Circassian offered their citizenship to the Russian Tsar, and the Khan of Siberia recognized himself as a tributary of the Moscow state. The continuous ring of Muslim khanates hostile to Russia, which so constrained our state from the south and east, was finally successfully broken.
      The greatest opportunities for spiritual, political and economic expansion in eastern and southern directions opened up in Moscow Russia: a new Kazan diocese was formed, the most important trade route - the Volga - became Russian throughout its entire length, the first cities and fortifications were built on the Terek and Sunzha (that is, in those places , which will subsequently be unfairly given to Chechens who have never lived in these places).
      .....
      1. FATEMOGAN
        +12
        27 February 2013 15: 07
        And in 1571, the Crimean Khan Devlet-Girey, supported by Turkey and the already united Polish-Lithuanian state at that time, organized a devastating raid on Russian lands. Bypassing the regiments of Russian governors standing on the Oka (popularly called the "belt of the Most Holy Theotokos"), the Crimean army unhindered reached Moscow, and burned out the city almost completely (except for the Kremlin). As a result of this raid, up to 150 thousand people were taken prisoner, according to some sources.
        Ivan the Terrible himself, like most of the Russian troops, was at this time in the north-western borders of the state. There was a Livonian war, and the king was at the head of troops at the forefront. The news that the Crimeans burned Moscow, caught him in Novgorod.
        Encouraged by the successful raid on Russia and confident that she would not recover from such a blow for a long time, Devlet-Girey put forward an unprecedented ultimatum: in addition to dismantling the fortifications on Sunzha and Terek, he began to demand from Ivan the Terrible to return the Kazan and Astrakhan khanates. In order to delay a new, even more terrible invasion, the Russians were forced to tear down the fortifications in the Caucasus, and the king sent expensive gifts to the Crimea.
        In the summer of the following year, 1572, Devlet Giray, again supported by Turkey (she even provided 40 thousand people for the campaign, including 7 thousand selected Janissaries) and Poland, moved their regiments to Moscow. He was so sure of the victory that he had previously divided the Russian state between his murzes, and that Crimean merchants had been granted permission for duty-free trade on the Volga. Thus, it was no longer a question of tribute or even territorial concessions. For the first time since the Battle of Kulikovo, the question arose about the existence of Russia as an independent state ........
        What awaited Russia ahead - the loss of statehood or the preservation of independence?
        The answer was given by Russian soldiers !!!
        1. Marek Rozny
          +4
          27 February 2013 19: 24
          that's what I’m talking about on the site - it would be better if the battle of Molodi was publicized in Russia than Kulikovskaya. that would be more correct.
          1. xan
            0
            27 February 2013 21: 26
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            that's what I’m talking about on the site - it would be better if the battle of Molodi was publicized in Russia than Kulikovskaya. that would be more correct.


            we better know what we PR, think about your story.
            Without the Battle of Kulikovo, there would have been no victory at the Young, should this be explained or is it clear?
            1. Marek Rozny
              +2
              28 February 2013 10: 34
              so this is our story)))) why is there a reserve here?)))
              and secondly, do you even understand what they are talking about? The actions of Dmitry Donskoy against the separatist Mamaia are actions in the interests of the Golden Horde. And on the side of Mamaia there were Slavs, Lithuanians, and Italians. And these are all historical facts. At the Battle of Kulikovo, they did not defeat the Horde, but in fact the Horde (by the hands of the Don) defeated their enemies.

              There is no connection with the Battle of Molodi here. Even if Donskoy lost his battle, it would hardly have any meaning in the future.
              Not Dmitry, so another prince loyal to the Horde or the Horde troops themselves would have defeated Mamaia in the end (especially since even the Mamaev steppes did not lose respect for the legitimate authority, which is well shown by the example when the Mamaev steppes faced Tokhtamysh got down with horses and knelt).

              But the battle of Molodi is of tremendous importance for Russian history. This is a real victory for the Russian state, which showed all the Horde fragments that now everything will be different. This is the final point in the era of steppe domination over Russians. This is the start of Russia's freedom.
              1. 0
                28 February 2013 21: 51
                This is how people are brainwashed. Having read this thoroughly false article, Marek has already drawn conclusions instead of doubting and trying to evaluate what has been stated.
                1. Marek Rozny
                  0
                  28 February 2013 22: 16
                  Pffff ... The arguments of this article became known to me over 10 years ago. And I have read more than a couple of hundred voluminous materials on the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" (with a variety of interpretations). It's already difficult for me to brainwash in this topic, my opinion has already formed.
          2. Che
            Che
            +1
            28 February 2013 12: 37
            Marek rozny,
            You don’t need to promote anything, you just need to study your story. Take an interest in it.
        2. +5
          27 February 2013 23: 09
          I think the author of the article gave a very correct epigraph to it.
          "" The Battle of Kulikovo refers to symbolic events ... "(A. Blok)
          Today we can only speculate something and put forward various hypotheses.
          The essence, and especially the HISTORICAL importance for the self-awareness of the Russian people of this battle, is not subject to doubt or rethinking. IMHO.
          This is our historical memory and support. Our symbol!
      2. +3
        27 February 2013 19: 34
        The Battle of the Young or the Youth of the Battle
        Excellent .... Well done ... rarely anyone comes to this battle. It’s glad that there are people in our Fatherland. Although judging by the flag, it’s not in our
        1. FATEMOGAN
          +4
          27 February 2013 20: 02
          Quote: smel
          I am glad that there are people in our Fatherland. Although judging by the flag, not in our

          Here I’ll correct you, however pathetic it sounds, it’s darker, for me personally, the Motherland, it’s not where the ass is warm - but where I was born, where the soul lies, and it is only with mother Russia.
          1. 0
            27 February 2013 21: 55
            Plus ... Big
    2. predator.3
      0
      27 February 2013 19: 29
      Quote: gribnik777
      The history of the formation of the Russian state, its gathering around Moscow, starting with the reign of Daniel of Moscow (son of Alexander Nevsky), is well described in a series of books by Dmitry Mikhailovich Balashov "The Sovereigns of Moscow." These books are also interesting because in them, in addition to artistic narration, a detailed a causal analysis of certain events (the descriptions of the actions and characters of the heroes are adjusted to this). Quotations from original documents and chronicles are given. Of course, this is just one version, but very curious and intelligible. The series of books is large, but worth reading. This is much more useful than sitting in front of the TV or on the net.

      Nikolay completely agrees with you, D. Balashov wrote very well, without any "ours" and "yours"! It's a shame I didn't finish this cycle of novels!
      1. +1
        28 February 2013 22: 05
        yes bullshit wrote this balashov .. when he lived? the story already invented by Romanov’s historians became legal .. he wrote on it .. although there it’s basically a lie
    3. +1
      28 February 2013 21: 56
      and before that? ..nothing was chtol? ..Oh well
  6. +1
    27 February 2013 09: 59
    How similar it is to the 90s! The same showdown and racket ... strongly in man the primitive beginning.
  7. +4
    27 February 2013 10: 00
    From Mr. Sulimov Dmitry Donskoy and Alexander Matrosov already got who is next in line, Alexander Nevsky, Mikhail Kutuzov ??? Researcher, damn it. It’s better to let the nito write about the Holocaust or September 11th.
  8. +6
    27 February 2013 10: 00
    Some of the thoughts in the article are very, very controversial. Everyone himself can put the known facts into a chain of historical events, determine the role of the prince, Russian soldiers, the significance of Moscow. Mamai, as mentioned in the article, is not Genghiside. that is, he cannot be the Golden Horde Khan, but he paid tribute to him. This time. Mamaia’s army is a mercenary. An army was bought with Crimean money, and the Genoese lived and ruled in Crimea at that time. They killed Mamaia for their failure and senseless waste of money. These are two. The army of Dmitry - for the first time in the history of Russia, collected from the cities (a monument to this event, thank God, was put in place of the Don convoy). these are three. There are no remains on the field of weapons, weapons, traces of battle. These are four. Dmitry Donskoy fought in the clothes of an ordinary warrior, was wounded, and the one wearing princely armor was killed. It's five. Khan Takhtomysh in 1382 at the end of August thanks to betrayal took Moscow, executed every tenth, ruined the city. These are six. Donskoy, the nobility and the clergy, having learned about the approach of Takhtomysh, fled from the city. These are seven. According to the outcome of Tokhtamyshas’s army, Dmitry returned, paid money to Muscovites for the burial of the dead (by the way, a little more than 10 thousand people lived in Moscow at that time for paying 20 buried people and the total expenditure of the treasury) and with two sons left for Horde in November letters on feeding. These are eight. Takhtomysh took him in March and, leaving the eldest son (hostage) under the Horde, allowed him to reign and pay tribute. These are nine. Much can still be added, but the chain of events is clear, and I set out only the facts.
    1. Marek Rozny
      +3
      27 February 2013 20: 29
      if I'm not mistaken, Tokhtamysh scolded Dmitry for a reason. It seems like the rivals of Moscow - all the same Ryazanians - talked to the khan that supposedly Donskoy got in touch with the Litvins and was going to betray the khan.
    2. s1н7т
      0
      1 March 2013 00: 17
      Quote: smel
      I set out only the facts.
      sucked from the finger, because there are no eyewitness accounts in this story.
      Moreover - there is not a single "label" in Mongolian or any other language, how will the "supervisory authorities" read it? laughing
    3. 0
      19 October 2016 18: 04
      As for the campaign, Tokhtamysh should not discount the official version. I think that after the Battle of Kulikovo, Donskoy refused to pay tribute to anyone at all, for which Moscow was taken. By the way, you did not mention the most important fact: after the forgiveness of the Donskoy by the khan, the label for the Great reign was forever given to the Moscow princes and the size of the tribute was a fixed amount of 5000 rubles. (but Muscovites, of course, continued to collect tithes and pocket the difference)
  9. avt
    +11
    27 February 2013 10: 13
    Here are a couple of facts to which historians do not give an answer but are terribly excited to swear. The place of battle was appointed by Nicholas 1, with the filing of a local nobleman, a former Decembrist, and established a standard monument of the 2nd category. There really are no graves there and cannot be found, but in general they are not particularly looking for. In Moscow, they actually found the remains of mass graves with characteristic injuries, and the graves of Peresvet and Oslyaby were restored together with the church, taking the land of the monostery at the Dynamo plant, metro Avtozavodskaya. It is strange that they were not brought to the Trinity Sergiev. Or maybe, as they said, they buried them on the battlefield? And the Bolsheviks put the church closed and transferred to the factory. Well, and against the monument to Cyril and Methodius in the city of China There is a church of all the Saints in the wings, nowadays, but back in the 70s, old Muscovites did not call it the Temple on Blood, asked why, no one answered.
    1. gribnik777
      +7
      27 February 2013 10: 29
      The temple was built during the time of Dmitry Donskoy to commemorate the soldiers who died in the battle on the Kulikovo field. Hence, apparently, the nickname - the Temple on the Blood.

      Temple site:
      http://podvorie-alexandria.ru/stanovlenie/
      1. avt
        +11
        27 February 2013 10: 38
        Quote: gribnik777
        The temple was built during the time of Dmitry Donskoy to commemorate the soldiers who died in the battle on the Kulikovo field. Hence, apparently, the nickname - the Temple on the Blood.

        Oh, right now, kaaak minus for Fomenkovism laughing laughing But you’re right, the first wooden church was really built in 1380 after the Battle of Kulikovo in memory of the killed wars and specifically the Don one. A stone was built in 1488, in 1687 it was rebuilt and so on to this day. The official data from the Russian Orthodox Church can be checked. That’s the question for historians. If the temples were set up at the scene, didn’t Donskoy know where he was fighting?
        1. gribnik777
          +6
          27 February 2013 10: 53
          Quote: avt
          Oh, right now, kaaak minus for Fomenkovism


          But this is not clear.

          I gave a link to the site of the temple, which describes its history. I didn't invent anything myself. By analogy, in St. Petersburg "Savior on Spilled Blood" is called the Temple, built on the site of the assassination attempt on Tsar Alexander II.
          This is about why "on the Blood".
  10. +1
    27 February 2013 11: 38
    Yes, you leave these disputes! It is necessary to recognize the very fact of the Battle of Kulikovo, its significance for the newly revived Russia, the image of Prince Dmitry Donskoy as a collector of Russian lands, besides it was he who first built the stone walls around Moscow, and whether it was a battle near Moscow, or at the mouth of Nepryadva now , after almost 700 years, it’s too difficult to establish, and it does not really matter.
    1. +6
      27 February 2013 18: 26
      I do not see any difficulties in determining the place of the battle other than desire. The authorities do not need this, because it goes against the traditional history (written for the Russians by the West). Enthusiasts do not have the funds and administrative resources to excavate the center of Moscow. But I think that it will not be forever, in the end, and after a thousand years, they find facts previously hidden intentionally or out of stupidity. And there is always a BIG value. Now you probably would not be indifferent if only you were told - your great grandfather is a thief! You would rummage through the archives and try to find the truth - and here ... I do not agree with you that "does not really matter."
      1. wax
        -1
        28 February 2013 00: 00
        Information about the Battle of Kulikovo from Russian sources, not Western.
        1. 0
          26 November 2016 22: 13
          it’s almost like about the Germans, Bismarck if my memory serves me, the first creates a nation and tries to collect at least something, now Germany, but in history it’s not strange that the Romans are fighting with the Germanic tribes
          although in the same annals there are Teutons, there are still orders that the Russian princes periodically encounter, but the Germans do not have annals in the annals, although according to some in eastern Germany everything is Slavic to the bone
  11. +3
    27 February 2013 12: 31
    Cui prodest (who benefits) We must start with the fact that the thousand-year-old Mamai is a puppet with great claims, who was never a khan, since only the descendants of Genghis Khan could become khans, and behind them stood the Genoese, Venetian and other European merchants who dreamed of controlling the Silk Road (JEWS AND THEN RULING!). In Central Asia at that time, Lame Timur ruled, imposing an unbearable duty on all merchant caravans. In addition, he supported his power by constant wars with neighbors, which also influenced trade. Therefore, many caravans turned north through the Volga, and then to the Crimea. Hence the claim to the throne of the Golden Horde. I agree with the author that there were practically no Golden Horde soldiers in Mamaia’s army. At this time, the sarbases of Totamysh fought with might and main on the vast expanses of the Kazakh steppes with Timur, who had allied relations with Mamai. His army consisted of representatives of the peoples who recognized Mamaia, and this is the Crimea, the Polovtsian steppes and the North Caucasus, Genoese spearmen and other mercenaries gathered throughout Europe.
    The reason for the Battle of Kulikovo was the reluctance of Prince Dmitry to recognize Mamai. And recognition in those days was supported by tribute. In addition, following an allied duty, Dmitry defeated Mamaia. And for this we must pay tribute to the Great Battle and not forget its significance for history.
    1. Earthman
      +2
      27 February 2013 12: 41
      Quote: redcod

      Cui prodest (who benefits) We must start with the fact that the thousand-year-old Mamai is a puppet with great claims, who was never a khan, since only the descendants of Genghis Khan could become khans, and behind them stood the Genoese, Venetian and other European merchants who dreamed of controlling the Silk Road (JEWS AND THEN RULING!). In Central Asia at that time, Lame Timur ruled, imposing an unbearable duty on all merchant caravans. In addition, he supported his power by constant wars with neighbors, which also influenced trade. Therefore, many caravans turned north through the Volga, and then to the Crimea. Hence the claim to the throne of the Golden Horde. I agree with the author that there were practically no Golden Horde soldiers in Mamaia’s army. At this time, the sarbases of Totamysh fought with might and main on the vast expanses of the Kazakh steppes with Timur, who had allied relations with Mamai. His army consisted of representatives of the peoples who recognized Mamaia, and this is the Crimea, the Polovtsian steppes and the North Caucasus, Genoese spearmen and other mercenaries gathered throughout Europe.
      The reason for the Battle of Kulikovo was the reluctance of Prince Dmitry to recognize Mamai. And recognition in those days was supported by tribute. In addition, following an allied duty, Dmitry defeated Mamaia. And for this we must pay tribute to the Great Battle and not forget its significance for history.

      my respect to you. You should start writing articles on the site to destroy all alternative thoughts.
      1. +5
        27 February 2013 13: 28
        Quote: Earthman
        my respect to you. You should start writing articles on the site to destroy all alternative thoughts.

        You swore at the author of the article under discussion, but here on the contrary. Why are some "inaccuracies" dearer to you than others?
        1. Mom was not a puppet. On the contrary. He was the son-in-law of the Khan of the Golden Horde Berdibek, who began the Great Memorial. And all the time of the Great Memorial, to one degree or another, he ruled on the right bank of the Volga and influenced the changes of khans, which he most likely were puppets.
        2. At that time, Timur was not an enemy of Tokhtamysh, but an ally and helped him establish power over the Blue Horde. They began to quarrel later when Tokhtamysh reunited the entire Golden Horde and presented Timur with the rights to lands seized by those, which according to Genghis painting were supposed to be the Jochi ulus.
        3. By that time the Polovtsian steppes could no longer exist.
        4. Who should Dmitry "recognize" Mamai? Why in this case the Lithuanians Olgerdovich fought for Dmitry, albeit from Bryansk and Trubchevsk, but then it was a different state with borders at Kaluga and Kozelsk. But before that, the Moscow principality suffered the difficult Lithuanian land just from Olgerd. This I mean that even the wording about "recognize" is incorrect.
        5. etc.

        PS. I am not old men
        1. +3
          27 February 2013 14: 35
          Quote: Nikolai S.
          1. Mom was not a puppet. On the contrary. He was the son-in-law of the Khan of the Golden Horde Berdibek, who began the Great Memorial. And all the time of the Great Memorial, to one degree or another, he ruled on the right bank of the Volga and influenced the changes of khans, which he most likely were puppets.


          Who pays, he orders the music. And even if he was three times son-in-law of Khan Berdibek, the Golden Horde throne was beyond his reach. And the fact that he was hiding behind the Genghisides, who were also puppets, is a matter of level. When the merchants realized that Mamai had lost his former power, they turned away from him, did not even open the gate to maintain a good relationship with Tokhtamys. And this is only done with puppets.
          Quote: Nikolai S.
          3. By that time the Polovtsian steppes could no longer exist.

          I am talking about territory. Call them Southern, Black Sea steppes.
          1. 0
            28 February 2013 22: 03
            Godunov (by the way, also a Tatar) was able to achieve the throne without being in consanguinity with the Ruriks. Mamai would have resisted, a new dynasty would have begun. That's all.
          2. +2
            6 October 2013 22: 31
            they turned away from him, didn’t even open the gate in order to maintain good relations with Tokhtamys. And this is only done with puppets.

            This is the case with all losers, be they puppets or legal rulers. In the end, the right to the throne is confirmed only by force. Weapons, whether money, is not important.
    2. 0
      26 November 2016 22: 29
      Quote: redcod
      We must start with the fact that the thousandth Mamai

      or is it temnik just like timur is just an emir ...
      maybe all the same on the territory of Eurasia there was a single state in which for some reason the West seized power (modern interpretation of the ruler)
      and Tokhtamysh, it rotten like a formidable or dark one, careful ....
      and the west is a white horde, another is white Russia, or else the Western Slavs, the last one of the mentions of Karamzin, the golden horde, is Russia, literally almost in those sizes, to be specific to the Russian Empire, and the blue horde is all south of the golden horde, in that including india and china ???
      and all these wars and conflicts, as now, and the conflicts of the last century and the year before last and the 17th century are all from one story ???? in this case, Ukraine has an unenviable fate, it is between three fires, south east and west ... smile
  12. +4
    27 February 2013 13: 13
    We are Russians, all the time looking for some kind of justice, the ultimate truth. But a true story that is true to the end simply does not exist. It reaches us through the personalities of storytellers and chroniclers. If we remove from history all the "untruth", all the inventions and ideas of the narrators, then nothing at all may remain in our history. Do we need it? Here the West does not hesitate to rewrite history for itself and does not bother. 300 years ago, they imposed statehood on us from the Scandinavians, we still cannot change the opinion of European historical science. And in the light of the introduction of world educational standards in our country, we will not be able to change anything at all. So is it worth giving new information reasons to Russia's enemies? The article is extremely harmful and unnecessary. It is necessary to end national self-abasement at the root.
  13. +2
    27 February 2013 13: 31
    it is especially amusing to read about Dmitry's allied duty, if Dmitry was a loyal Vasal of the Horde, then why the hell did Tokhtomysh come to burn Moscow? He had to put a monument to Dmitry in Sarai as a deliverer from the usurper. It is interesting to read about the number, in a hundred years the number will probably be questioned tanks near Prokhorovka, they say we could not put up such a number after the catastrophe of the 41st, there were 20 times less tanks, and those along the entire front, but in Normandy yes !!! a great force gathered !!! If the battle was near Moscow, then I suppose it would have been called the "Battle of Moscow" and what kind of carts with the wounded did the Lithuanians rob on the way back? If Moscow is within easy reach?
    1. +1
      27 February 2013 13: 56
      in a hundred years they’ll probably question the number of tanks near Prokhorovka, they say we couldn’t set up such a number after the 41 disaster, there were fewer tanks in 20

      Well, you gave a head start ... 100 years. Already they write that the Germans had an incomplete division, against the "steel hordes of Stalin". Not so long ago by the way. Browse the site, you will find.
      They like to use the Fomenki and Nosovskaya ones in that any event of the past can be called into question. I talked with lovers of historical remake, it may not be natural, but at school they were not interested in history.
      1. +9
        27 February 2013 14: 14
        Well, yes, tanks near Prokhorovka cannot be found now, which means they weren’t !!!!
        1. +1
          27 February 2013 15: 18
          tomket, ha - ha, but you said a lot !!! Yes Well, yes, there are no tanks found near Prokhorovka that are now found, which means it wasn’t !! wink !! - I paid all these idiots !!!! laughing
          1. +1
            27 February 2013 18: 40
            Well, tanks are huge ones, but bullets, fragments, flasks, soldier spoons, buttons, buckles, nails from boots, arrowheads (regarding the Kulikovo battle), mass graves - all this is on any field where there was a major battle. And this seemingly small thing will not go anywhere, and after a thousand years you can determine whether there was a battle here or not ... Not really yours ... A amateurish look at archeology ... Well, yes it’s forgiven to you wretched ...
            1. 0
              27 February 2013 20: 14
              but who from Fomenkovtsi went to the Kulikovo field to look for small things? It’s necessary to dig the earth, it’s much more pleasant to work with the pun.
              1. wax
                -3
                28 February 2013 00: 05
                Something today Fomenko smells strongly here.
                1. 0
                  28 February 2013 22: 20
                  her here ignoramuses and not wanting to know anything new .. smacks of
              2. 0
                28 February 2013 22: 19
                Well, you dig there for days and nights .. found what?
            2. -1
              27 February 2013 21: 57
              Regarding small things, I think that according to your understanding, the Kulikovo field should be a warehouse, chain mail of armor and spears in the open, come and calculate the number of fallen by ephesus? What do you think happened after a major battle with precious armor with spears and other metal, even if during the second war in the Gulf the British special forces did not hesitate to take off their shoes ??? If the battlefield was not hidden by a miracle from the human eye, for example, everyone died and the snow passed at night, and by spring the forest grew around, then soon there were no bones left from this field, because the steppe and the wolves also love bones, and all the mysteries of the missing ammunition.
              1. stroporez
                -2
                28 February 2013 14: 54
                and the marauders didn’t drop anything right
              2. +2
                28 February 2013 22: 22
                and the lack of mass graves there and their presence in Moscow .. we will persistently not notice
      2. 0
        28 February 2013 22: 17
        well yes . mathematics yet .. you know better
  14. predator.3
    -11
    27 February 2013 13: 34
    As waders shouted at the Kulikovo field,
    And in a stupid manner the Russian regiments came out.
    As they died of fumes - for a hundred miles
    So they drank not without reason, the enemy will be defeated.

    Chorus:
    And on the left is our army, and on the right is our army,
    It’s good to wave the sword with a drink.

    The glorious warrior Peresvet was dressed in some shirts,
    And the chain mail in a drunken brawl was torn to pieces,
    He took a mug of moonshine and, swinging, said:
    If I drink it at once, the enemy will be defeated.

    He went up to his mare, well, push it:
    Well you drunk cow al don't see anything
    Al ate peas, a mile away
    So drunk not without reason, the enemy will be defeated.

    Chorus.

    Spears dense wall, horseback from edge to edge
    Before horsemeat and koumiss on the hill sits Mamai
    And Don’s with a hangover, the stirrup will not catch, even kill,
    Chelubey gallops out of the crowd of Tatars

    The governor with a red nose in the military business knows a lot,
    And in ambush he sent them the most drunk in the ass regiment,
    Crossed the river screaming obscenities, well done,
    There is no way to know back, they put the ends into the water.

    And they came together, rattling iron, with a drunken army a sober army,
    Everything is finished, everything is finished, there is nothing left to lose,
    Only in the evening waders shouted over the field,
    The sober-up regiments defeated the Basurmans.

    Chorus:
    And the army was on the left, and the army was on the right,
    And now for a hundred miles you can’t see anyone.
    On the left was the army and on the right was the army
    And now for a hundred miles you can’t see anyone.

    Times are history, years have passed
    But we remember the traditions of the saints forever.
    Having drunk a bottle of vodka and port all the bay
    We feel the pleasure of filling our neighbor's face.

    Chorus:
    And your mother is on the left and your mother is on the right -
    It’s good to wave the stake again.
    1. 0
      27 February 2013 17: 26
      Predator. 3,
      Well, they didn’t drink then ...... they didn’t ... drink !!! But wave and right now with a great angry
      1. predator.3
        +1
        27 February 2013 19: 18
        Quote: Strezhevchanin
        Well, they didn’t drink then ...... they didn’t ... drink !!! But wave and right now with a great

        Well, yes, with a single kvass, yes, they stood around with honey, well, the boyars used the overseas wines that were supplied by the Sourozh merchants from the Crimea, by the way they were at that time i.e. at the turn of the 14-15 centuries. Rusichi have minted their famous aquavita, or grape spirit. fellow
    2. wax
      +2
      28 February 2013 00: 10
      All Russia! all Russia! cried Mamai
      and with a wound ran to the Barn.
    3. s1н7т
      0
      1 March 2013 00: 31
      Quote: predator.3
      As waders shouted at the Kulikovo field,

      Particularly brave companies in our school were given out on an evening walk - the people around were listening! laughing
  15. Eric
    +3
    27 February 2013 13: 38
    It seems to me at the Battle of Kulikovo - they fought, the Tatars were on one side. The trick is that three churches built in honor of the victory are located in different parts of Moscow, which suggests that the battle was on the territory of Moscow. I don’t remember exactly the guys.
    1. avt
      +4
      27 February 2013 20: 22
      Quote: Eric
      It seems to me at the Battle of Kulikovo - they fought, the Tatars were on one side. The trick is that three churches built in honor of the victory are located in different parts of Moscow, which suggests that the battle was on the territory of Moscow. I don’t remember exactly the guys.

      Yes, it is. Here for example we can say they say Moscow, the capital here is Don and closer to the center of the temple and put on the Blood. But what then to do with the Cathedral of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker in Pererva? The question is, what fright in 1380, again, in honor of the Battle of Kulikovskaya, did the whole Nicolo - Perervensky Donskoy monastery be laid down? Again, I didn’t know that in Kolomna and not in Kolomenskoye I had gathered for the Don, in the sense of a river, had left the attackers? And why then on this place 1696-1700 rebuilt the whole cathedral? Indeed, even now Pererva is not a passing light in Moscow from the center, but then, in general, it takes half a day to get there.
  16. +1
    27 February 2013 21: 27
    Don, who was then called Tanais


    But what about it: I want bo, - speak, - a spear to break the end of the Polovtsian field with you, Rusitsi! I want to put my head on, but don’t drink helmets for anything. ”

    Two hundred years before the Battle of Kulikovo. Or is it also the wrong Don?
    1. Marek Rozny
      +2
      28 February 2013 10: 38
      In "The Lay of Igor's Regiment" is meant not Don, but Donets. This is a different river.
      In general, Don was already called Don then. Tanais is an older name, and this is the Greek form of this hydronym. Neither the Slavs, nor the Turks, nor the Caucasians in this form called this river. In the steppes, the river was called simply Tana.
      1. 0
        28 February 2013 14: 58
        But then they praise Vsevolod, who - "You can sprinkle the oars of the Volga, and pour out the Don helmets."
        Somehow putting Seversky Donets and Volga in one row, it’s somewhat illogical, in my opinion,
        1. Marek Rozny
          +1
          28 February 2013 17: 13


          Seversky Donets. Such a normal river. It is not a shame to put on a par with the Volga in this case.
          1. +2
            28 February 2013 17: 57



            Agree - there is a slight difference
            1. Marek Rozny
              +1
              28 February 2013 18: 48
              Of course, the Volga is bigger. But this is not a reason for the Russian chronicler not to put Sev. Donets next to her. And the prince will splash the Volga with oars, and Donetsk will be able to scoop up a helmet. Fiction.
              1. 0
                28 February 2013 20: 43
                Anyway, the hyperbole comes out unequal
        2. avt
          0
          28 February 2013 17: 27
          Quote: rexby63
          But then they praise Vsevolod, who - "You can sprinkle the oars of the Volga, and pour out the Don helmets."

          Here such a story don is really a river, proper name - Quiet Don Weak, Still called Glory. Quiet adrift but mighty. But the Dnieper River, without vague voices, the river with rapids or the Don rapids is Dnieper, and its name is Slavutych. Over time, the meaning of the words is lost, something leaves, something becomes its own name.
      2. 0
        28 February 2013 22: 10
        Tanais is a Greek colony in the Don Delta or Greek for Tana
    2. Che
      Che
      +3
      28 February 2013 12: 47
      rexby63,
      Don translates as a river, a water barrier.
      1. +1
        28 February 2013 14: 59
        Thank you, but in "Lay" this is already a proper name
  17. xan
    +4
    27 February 2013 21: 41
    In the pre-Internet era, he read a documentary about the rival Dmitry Prince Ryazan. At that time, everything was so ambiguous that who the enemy was and who the friend was far from obvious. And there was no reliable allies among Donskoy, just as there were none with Mamai, Tokhtamysh, Yagailo, Ryazan and Tver princes.
    But after the Kulikov victory, the position of Moscow as the center of the Russian land became unattainable for its rivals among the Russians, and this is important. The further greatness of Russia, led by Moscow, was not yet visible, but the strength and determination of Moscow was demonstrated, and this could not but tell in the future.
    1. Marek Rozny
      -2
      28 February 2013 10: 45
      Especially after Khan Tokhtamysh burned Moscow after the Battle of Kulikovo, and Donskoy scrambled out of there, leaving his family - Moscow's authority in the eyes of its neighbors grew very high ... "Wow, what greatness! What strength! What determination!", - thought admiring Tverichi, residents of Ryazan, Vladimir, Kiev - "It is immediately obvious that the Moscow prince must rule over us, and Moscow must become our main city!"
      1. Che
        Che
        0
        28 February 2013 12: 52
        Marek Rozny,
        The Poles with the French also burned Moscow, so what of that. We survived then stand and now. Everyone is easier to defend together.
        1. Marek Rozny
          0
          28 February 2013 17: 23
          The Poles and the French burned Moscow when it had already become the capital. And in the time of Donskoy - it didn’t even smell close. While Kalita did not break permission from the khan to collect loot from other Russian lands, there was not even a hint that Moscow looked somehow special in comparison with other Russian cities. Who was impressed by Donskoy? Ryazantsev? Those that later on princes of Moscow were always happy. Or maybe Tver from this moment decided to recognize the primacy of Moscow? Tverites disputed Muscovites right up to Ivan the Terrible.
          1. +2
            28 February 2013 17: 37
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Tverites disputed Muscovites right up to Ivan the Terrible.

            And on completely legal grounds!
      2. xan
        -2
        28 February 2013 16: 12
        Marek rozny,
        envy bad feeling
        and complexes must be fought, at least try not to show them.
        1. Marek Rozny
          -3
          28 February 2013 17: 25
          pfff ... "khan", you have that always stupid comments on the topic, that insults are worthless. chill out Vasya.
          1. xan
            +1
            28 February 2013 20: 49
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Especially after Khan Tokhtamysh burned Moscow after the Battle of Kulikovo, and Donskoy scrambled out of there, leaving his family - Moscow's authority in the eyes of its neighbors grew very high ... "Wow, what greatness! What strength! What determination!", - thought admiring Tverichi, residents of Ryazan, Vladimir, Kiev - "It is immediately obvious that the Moscow prince must rule over us, and Moscow must become our main city!"


            The answer is detailed for inhibited and supervisors.
            Donskoy did not drape from Moscow, but went to gather troops, because no one would have done better than him. And he left his family in Moscow so that Muscovites could see that he had not abandoned them. It’s just that the leaders of Moscow’s defense didn’t have to chew and negotiate with the enemy, but to fight.
            For you personally, your envy of the Russians as a people comes through in each of your posts.
            1. Marek Rozny
              0
              28 February 2013 20: 52
              how did you get me ...
              1) Well, where and what troops did Donskoy collect? And then what did he do with this army?
              2) Go buy drops for sight, if something seems to you.
      3. 0
        28 February 2013 22: 14
        Probably he would have to stay in order to die heroically?
        There is another version that Dmitry went to collect troops to repel the invasion, but it was almost impossible to collect at least some army after Kulikov’s field.
        1. Marek Rozny
          +1
          28 February 2013 22: 45
          Let's put it this way. In June 1941, the German army invades the USSR. In November 1941, the German army was at the walls of Moscow, and Stalin abandoned the city and country and went to Washington "for help." What do we call this hypothetical behavior of Stalin? Moreover, if Stalin, after the capture of Moscow, also sends ambassadors to Berlin to Hitler, who will assure the Fuhrer that Stalin is ready to serve Adolf with faith and truth, and after Stalin receives assurances from the German side that they are ready to forgive him and graciously allow him to rule the Russian Gauleiter, he himself will go to the capital of Germany ... Who after that Stalin?
          1. xan
            0
            28 February 2013 23: 25
            Marek rozny,
            you should write fairy tales.
            do you even understand that you wrote nonsense?
          2. chuckling
            0
            2 March 2013 19: 24
            Yes you are right

            that guys would you go to ban for nonsense
        2. xan
          +1
          28 February 2013 23: 08
          Gregazov,
          It was possible to assemble an army, but it was necessary that Moscow hold on. But Tokhtamysh knew very well that he had serious opponents besides Moscow, and that a long and bloody war would weaken him even if he won. Managed to trick Moscow quickly. But this is not that victory. The Russians were no longer afraid of the Horde. The path was already clear - the union of all the Russian lands around Moscow, which showed that the Horde could be beaten. There was another strong adversary, Lithuania, and it made no sense to butt with the Horde, weakening before Lithuania. You could even say that Lithuania was a more serious adversary, it was impossible to pay off from it as from the Horde.
          1. Marek Rozny
            +1
            28 February 2013 23: 43
            "Khan", They say to you for the hundredth time - Mamai had nothing to do with the Horde! On the contrary, he is the enemy of the Horde! What did the Russians see there? Where did they see that Moscow had beaten the Horde? Did hen’t overeat?
            1. xan
              +2
              1 March 2013 03: 10
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Beck expressed himself not quite accurately, but the essence is clear to everyone. De jure Mamai, of course, was not a ruler, but de facto ...


              You in one forum contradict yourself?
              Do you have a split personality?
              1. Marek Rozny
                +1
                4 March 2013 15: 13
                I already told you that you have problems with logical thinking. I already wrote here who he was de facto - the ruler of the Crimean yurt, and not the Horde. Learn to read.
      4. 0
        19 October 2016 18: 19
        Not drapanul, but began to collect the army, near Vladimir a large detachment of the Horde was destroyed. After the capture of Moscow, Tokhtamysh for some reason very, very quickly rushed off to the Horde. In general, modern Kazakhs touch me, everyone imagines himself a descendant of Genghis Khan. Calm down! You've never been a Horde! And all your greatness and supposedly ancient history are only in your head.
  18. i.xxx-1971
    +1
    27 February 2013 21: 47
    I sincerely support the hypothesis regarding the question of the Battle of Kulikovo by the Russian scientists Nosovsky and Fomenko, as well as all their hypotheses: reasoned and balanced. There is nothing to argue, as counterarguments only hysteria about the violation of the traditional historical version, in my opinion, completely unviable. References to the annals are inappropriate - all annals are remnants of the 17-19 centuries. History is an exact science and it should be studied as an exact science, the information received should be analyzed and interpreted independently, primarily using logic and common sense. Then you will understand everything yourself.
    1. +1
      27 February 2013 22: 38
      there is nothing to object because there are no questions as such what would they object to, that we would object to the fact that in Russia the caftans were worn? It is clear that they didn’t go to Ryazan in Greek togas.
    2. +2
      28 February 2013 20: 17
      i.xxx-1971,
      My feeling is that the Fomenko hypothesis is closer to the truth. His calculations are very convincing. This is not swearing a yoshkin cat.
    3. +3
      6 October 2013 23: 02
      Quote: i.xxx-1971
      History is an exact science.

      But this is a discovery at the level of the Nobel Prize. I, stupid, kept thinking that history was a humanitarian and descriptive science.
      Well, seriously, history is primarily a science. And exact methods in historical science are just as important as in physics or chemistry. But these new historians (and I want to say - false historians) Fomenko and Nosovsky just neglect these most accurate methods, since they greatly spoil the picture for him. In their new studies and interpretations of science, even less than in the studies of Rezun-Suvorov.
  19. +7
    27 February 2013 22: 12
    Quote: tomket
    it is especially interesting to read about Dmitry’s allied duty, if Dmitry was a faithful Vasal of the Horde, then why the hell did Tokhtomysh come to burn Moscow?

    Tohtamysh with the help of Tamerlane in 1380 became the khan of the Golden Horde, after which he sent ambassadors to the Russian princes with the news of his accession. The princes received them with honor and sent their ambassadors with gifts for the new khan. However, Dmitry Donskoy refused to pay tribute and go to the Horde to the new khan to receive a label for the great reign. Wanting to curb the Russian princes who had risen up after the Battle of Kulikovo, Tokhtamysh ordered to rob the Russian guests and seize their ships, and in 1382 he went with a large army to Moscow. The princes of Nizhny Novgorod, Ryazan and Tver obeyed the khan without resistance, Moscow was left alone. Dmitry Donskoy went to Kostroma, and Vladimir the Brave (Serpukhov) went to Volok Lamsky to collect troops. But Moscow, because of the deception of the siege of the Suzdal prince besieged by the sons who came with Tokhtamysh, did not last long. Having managed to gather his army, Vladimir the Brave overtook the Horde detachment after the pogrom of Moscow and defeated it, which forced Tokhtamysh to urgently leave the Moscow Principality.
    1. 0
      27 February 2013 22: 36
      then why did Dmitry get involved with the recognition of Tokhtamysh? a year ago he saved him and then to those who were not overlords, he told me that was all! Conclusion - Dmitry that Mamai, that Tokhtomysh were enemies, and he showed no one neither allied duty nor Vasal duty.
  20. +9
    27 February 2013 23: 35
    After the assassination of Khan Berdibek in 1359 in the Horde, a deadly civil war broke out (the “Great Memorial”), Mamai began a war with the khans of Saray. In 1363, to the 13-year-old Dmitry (future Don), Mamai issued a label for a great reign, and thus the Principality of Moscow recognized vassal dependence on Mamai and his khan Abdullah. The rupture of Moscow and the Mamaev Horde was begun in 1373, when Mamai attacked the Ryazan land, and Moscow Prince Dmitry gathered large Moscow forces and stood at the Oka River. This prevented the invasion of “Mama’s rati” on the adjacent lands of Ryazan. Naturally, there was a gap in peace between Moscow and the Mamaev Horde. Then Mamai tried to rekindle the old enmity between the principalities of Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod, but this did not succeed, Nizhny Novgorod defeated the ambassadorial detachment of the Tatars. After this, the All-Princely Congress was held for the first time, where for the first time measures to counter the Horde were also discussed. Then, in 1375, Mamai issued a label to the Tver prince, who immediately severed relations with Moscow. In response, the Moscow prince organized an all-Russian campaign against Tver, and the Tver prince stopped resistance, pledged to help Moscow in wars, and refused the label. With the signing of the Tver Treaty, an all-Russian coalition of princes was finally formed under the leadership of Moscow. The peace between the main rivals - Moscow, Tver and Ryazan - served as a guarantee of the cessation of internal feudal wars and created the opportunity for a decisive struggle against the Horde. But this coalition was a typical coalition of a period of fragmentation, and was very unstable.
  21. +7
    28 February 2013 00: 17
    After the Battle of Kulikovo, Dmitry Donskoy hoped too much for the created coalition and the result of a victorious battle, and therefore refused to recognize Tokhtamysh’s power. But in 1382, during the campaign of the khan to Moscow, the Nizhny Novgorod, Ryazan and Tver principalities did not support the Moscow principality, the coalition did not work, Moscow did not have troops, they had to be gathered in other principalities, but there was no time. Tohtamysh ruined Moscow, taking advantage of this, the Tver prince rushed to the Khan’s headquarters for a label. Dmitry had no choice but to submit to Tokhtamysh and keep the label behind him. The time to overcome the feudal fragmentation and private interests of the principalities has not yet come.
    1. xan
      +1
      1 March 2013 01: 41
      Quote: Veteran
      Dmitry had no choice but to submit to Tokhtamysh and keep the label behind him.


      In turn, Tokhtamysh also acknowledged that without approving Dmitry Donskoy, he would receive civil strife in the Russian principalities with unclear prospects of receiving tribute, and with the need to send troops there to defeat his protege. This was not interesting to him, because Tokhtamysh was full of enemies inside the Horde and outside it. And the main one is Tamerlan. Whatever the Horde would do, it could no longer hinder the unification of Russia around Moscow after the Battle of Kulikovo, there were no more forces to fight on all fronts. Further strengthening of Russia, led by Moscow, became a matter of technology. And manipulations with labels on reigning the Horde did not help anymore.
  22. wax
    +6
    28 February 2013 00: 17
    I. Bunin:
    The tombs, mummies and bones are silent,
    Only the word life is given:
    From the ancient darkness, in the world pogost,
    Only the letters sound.


    When Ivan the Terrible’s library is found, there will be a lot of correspondence. But the deeds of the ancestors will not fade, but will shine even brighter.
    1. +1
      28 February 2013 22: 33
      unfortunately there isn’t anything at all .. the Rurikovich Romanovs were thrown off .. and it’s illegal, besides .. they did their best .. and the library and everything they could destroy .. it’s sad .. and the last of the Romanovs I thought was for that punished ... above
  23. +1
    28 February 2013 04: 31
    all = mystery = WE WIN! belay laughing
  24. -1
    28 February 2013 04: 45
    The campaign is now breaking more copies than then on the field. History is not a science, but an interpretation of events in the interests of political and economic in a single period of time, and the author clearly speaks about this.
    To realize this, it is enough to look at the history of only the 20th century. And how many times have textbooks been copied in Russia alone? And beyond? There you have it.
    What is the use of shaking the air if it is not known for certain? Only one thing is known for sure - what the battle was and when it was. All. Even who exactly was there and by what forces, and most importantly whose interests he defended ???
    You can, of course, talk about this, but we won’t sift our words through a sieve of truth, kindness and necessity, which means that all these words will be wasted.
    1. 0
      1 March 2013 13: 50
      Significantly, they minus, but do not argue. The truth is one, but there are many points of view
  25. +3
    28 February 2013 09: 26
    The theme of Oleg Ryazansky was not disclosed; there is a theory that, being between two fires, he preferred Dmitry and was not in a hurry to join Jagiello, because in fact the rear of the Russians were not covered. But that's me, who knows how it was. And what's the difference, a lot of blood is never forgotten, that a hundred, that a thousand.
    1. Marek Rozny
      -2
      28 February 2013 10: 51
      Ryazans distinguished themselves after the battle - having attacked the Donskoy carts.
  26. +4
    28 February 2013 11: 40
    All the same, for myself, I finally came to the conclusion that the Battle of Kulikovo was still not directed against the Horde, but against the "illegitimate" Mamai, a kind of monkey, like the current Libyan / Syrian rats.
    This conclusion was made on the basis of the fact that for another hundred years the Russians did not just pay tribute (by the way, scanty), but also a little bit of a showdown among themselves - they went to the Horde to settle which city to rule. Those. Khan deliberately chose to be an arbitrator. After the Battle of Kulikovo, the Horde continued to showdown among themselves, the very basis of state administration began to stagger. The Russians could not predict who would be the khan. Because of this Horde confusion, Moscow decides to break away from the Union and sends the Horde. You know, the case ended with a standing on the Ugra, practically without bloodshed. Then many Horde people agree that "the godfather is sitting in Moscow" and begin to swear allegiance to the new center. From these Horde people subsequently come the Great Russian Surnames - Sheremetyevs, Saltykovs, Yusupovs, Tolstoy and many others. others. In general, something like that, albeit crumpled. Well, not like the "uprising of the oppressed" our story with the Horde, for the life of me!
    1. Beck
      +1
      28 February 2013 15: 46
      Quote: Magadan
      All the same, for myself, I finally came to the conclusion that the Battle of Kulikovo was still not directed against the Horde, but against the "illegitimate" Mamai, a kind of monkey, like the current Libyan / Syrian rats.


      Finally. The three hundred year period of the Golden Horde is a common stretch of both East Slavic and Turkic history. This is our common piece of history. From there we all come from. Neither can you be taken away, nor can we be added. And in addition to the Russian people you listed with their names rooted in Turkic, this includes Karamzin - Kara Murza - Black Lord, and Turgenev, and Kutuzov, and Alyabyev, and the pseudonym of the great Russian poetess Akhmatova, in honor of her ancestor Kasimovsky Khan Akhmat, and many others.
      1. s1н7т
        -1
        1 March 2013 00: 43
        Quote: Beck
        Three hundred year period of the Golden Horde
        not confirmed by any evidence of contemporaries.
    2. xan
      +3
      1 March 2013 02: 09
      Magadan,
      wrong conclusions.
      The horde broke up not after the Ugra, but much later, into the Siberian, Kazan, Astrakhan, Crimean and a bunch of other khanates. Why should these guys consider that godfather is sitting in Moscow? The Horde who left for Moscow were a drop in the ocean among the entire elite of the Horde. It took a lot of wars and hundreds of years before the last fragments of the Horde ceased to exist. And not all of them ended up in the Russian Empire.

      Quote: Magadan
      Well, not like the "uprising of the oppressed" our story with the Horde, for the life of me!


      And it does not seem like because the Horde did not interfere with the Russians to live according to their own laws and did not change the elite of Russia, in contrast to the desires of the European enemies of Russia. Therefore, Alexander Nevsky and held the side of the Horde. They simply limited themselves to the payment of tribute, in modern parlance, "covered, but did not get into business." For fragmented Russia in the face of mental aggression from the West, such a roof for the time being was a definite plus.
  27. -1
    28 February 2013 13: 33
    I'll put a plus, one of the few places where it says: "That everything that is considered to be true about the battle is actually an invention of Moscow authors."
  28. pinecone
    0
    28 February 2013 13: 56
    The people should have their own historical myths and their heroic epic.
    1. 0
      4 March 2013 15: 13
      And what about those of the Polovtsy, Pechenegs, Cherkassy, ​​etc.? believe in these myths?

      Those. really not needed! :) Need myths! :)

      here is the link to the topic:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BTGoiiUX_s
  29. 0
    28 February 2013 15: 03
    None of the independent princes helped Dmitry Donskoy. Only his petty vassals, four Litvin princes? and robbers
    Who was Mamai? Evil Tatar? "Let not one of you plow bread, be prepared for Russian bread." Nomad Tatars sowed bread? Atheist Mamai invokes the Slavic Gods? "... of his gods: Perun and Salavat, and Raclia, and Horse, and his great accomplice Mohammed."
    And who was in his army? Yasy and Alans (Ossetians), Cherkasy, Polovtsy, Pechenegs, Fryagi (Genoese mercenaries). And some bezeremenny .... Besermyans (self-name - Beserman; Udm. Beserman) - Finno-Ugric people in Russia, dispersedly living in the north-west of Udmurtia in 41 settlements, of which 10 villages are mono-ethnic-Wikipedia. And where are the Tatars?
    On the side of Mamaia are the boyars and princes.
    Why Dmitry Donskoy refused to give his daughter as an ally of his prince Jagiello
    Why Donskoy, having defeated Mamai, flees from Tokhtamysh, leaving Moscow and his family? And, having gathered an army, he did not pursue the Tatars, taking revenge for Russia, but attacked Ryazan!
    PS G. V. Vernadsky writes: "... from Persian sources it is known that in 1388 the Russian troops were part of the great army of Tokhtamysh"?
    1. Beck
      +1
      28 February 2013 16: 36
      Quote: knn54
      G.V. Vernadsky writes: “... from Persian sources it is known that in 1388 the Russian troops were part of the great army of Tokhtamysh”?


      This was the situation among the Genghis Khan Turks. In contrast to literary speculation that everyone was cutting a cartwheel. Conquered - yes. Lead to obedience, yes. But even then they used it as additional military force.

      Having crossed the Gobi, the wars of Genghis Khan subjugated the Xianbi (Mongolian) tribes and included them in the advanced units of their army. In the conquered Chinese territories, the Chinese were recruited and thrown into the storming of Chinese cities. We entered the steppes of Kazakhstan and took in our army the conquered, but related Turkic tribes. And it is the Turks who fell upon Russia. And in the campaign of Batu Khan to Poland and Hungary in 1242, his troops already had Smolensk regiments and regiments of Alexander Nevsky. And in the Golden Horde and even more so. When the supreme khan Hulagu declared a general campaign against Vietnam, at the gathering place of troops, in the city of Beijing, a combination of Russian wars arrived. But it seems they did not participate in the campaign. The climate of the jungle for Russians was very unusual. And when they went to Iran and the Middle East, the Persians, Kurds, Arabs, and Caucasians were recruited into the army.

      And the farther the Horde troops were from the base, the more there were not Turks in the troops. The troops suffered their first defeat in 1268 in Syria near Homs, from the Egyptian Mamelukes of Bey Bars, when the Turks themselves were already few in the troops, and there were Persians, Arabs, etc. And the basis of the Bay Bars troops was composed of Mamluks (guards) of Turkic origin. And the Bay Bars was a Turk, a boy sold to Egypt.
      1. +1
        28 February 2013 20: 25
        Beck,
        Why then drag a Mongol to the Turks. Maybe this great resettlement of the Turkic ethnic group was, and not the Mongol conquest. It’s complicated how everything is complicated.
        1. Beck
          +3
          1 March 2013 10: 03
          Quote: Sandov
          Why then drag a Mongol to the Turks. Maybe this great resettlement of the Turkic ethnic group was, and not the Mongol conquest. It’s complicated how everything is complicated.


          Clearly, the question is confusing. And Western historians confused him. The first, a certain Kruse. This he led into scientific use the term - mongols, in the middle of the 19th century, because he did not know, and could not know, at that time, the whole history of the Kazakh and Mongolian steppes .. Before him this term was not used. In the Russian chronicles there is not a single entry with the word Mongol. there is Tatars and the Horde. And after Kruse this term was adopted by Russian historians, adding to it the word Tatars, came the Mongol-Tatars ..

          And so many troubles with it happened in history. Misunderstandings are now visible through white threads. Type - the Mongols conquered Russia, but the Russian annals do not mention the Mongols with a single word. Type - Mongol khans on the throne, but for some reason the labels were written in the dialects of the Turkic language and the Turkic alphabet. Type Mongols have ruled for 300 years - But there is not a single Mongolism in the Russian language, Turkism is higher than the roof.

          And in the 19th century, these absurdities were visible to some scientists, and in order to somehow smooth all this out, they came up with another absurdity. Like, when the Mongols conquered the steppes of Kazakhstan, they renounced and only after that went to Russia. Everyone knows that assimilation with the transition to another language is a long business. If optimistic, then at least 100 years.

          What about us? Genghis Khan died in 1227. The steppes of Kazakhstan and Khorezm went to the son of Jochi. Batu, the son of Jochi and the grandson of Genghis Khan, was 1227 years old in 18. That is, according to Western stories, he was a Mongol and all the tribes that came with him to the steppes of Kazakhstan, the Naimans, the Kereites, and others were Mongols. Ten years later, in 1337, Batu goes to Russia and a paradox he and all his army speaks Turkic in Russia.

          That is the main question of my assumptions. HOW TOTAL FOR TEN YEARS THE CONQUERING PEOPLE COULD BE ADDRESSED ???

          This is the Turks of Kazakhstan should have been honored and certainly not in ten years. And in general, how could it be ütürüz in those days when the nomads lived in separate villages, wandered separately. This is not a city with everyday communication between different tribes. In general, there are few cases in history when the conqueror lost his tongue in the conquered lands, just the opposite happens. And completely assimilate and lose your tongue in TEN years IMPOSSIBLE.

          All this is brief. I have other justifications that it was the Turks, and not the Mongols, who came to Russia. Today's Mongols came to today's Mongolia after these steppes were empty after the last exodus of Turkic tribes from their ancestral home to the west. And the Mongols came from behind the Gobi Desert, from the inner Mongolia of China, where even now there are about 7 million of them, and about 2 million in Mongolia itself. And they took, involuntarily, the military glory and valor of the Turks.

          But in the format of the comment, I certainly can’t put everything on the shelves of my historical assumption.
          1. Marek Rozny
            +2
            4 March 2013 15: 21
            For example, Naimans, Kereis and Zhalayyrs are Kazakh clans who are trying to present in Russia and Mongolia as Turkic Mongols. All these genera have lived in East Kazakhstan for almost a thousand years. Between them, there are no "primordial Turks" who could Turkic them. These clans live by themselves - not mixed up with other Kazakh clans. Moreover, Naiman is generally the largest race among the Kazakhs. Who and how could oturichir (and cleanly - they have not a single Mongolian word) - a riddle of riddles)))))
            It is silly to say that the huge clans of the "Mongols" of eastern Kazakhstan allegedly became Turkic under the influence of the Turks of southern or western Kazakhstan. This is their native language. The Khoja clan among the Kazakhs has remembered its Arab roots for more than a thousand years, but millions of Naimans, Jalayyrs and Kereis, apart from their Turkic roots, cannot naturally tell anything. By the way, there are more Kazakh Naimans than all Mongols in Mongolia.
    2. 0
      7 November 2017 17: 49
      And if in the article instead of Mamaia, the author wrote Ivan Villiaminov (Temnik in Russia at that time, and at which Donskoy reduced this position), and in the place of Dmitry Donskoy - Tokhtamysh (nickname Dmitry Donskoy) then that there was no battle of Kulikovo? There was the Battle of Kulikovo - and the main battle for the throne of Great Russia. And there and there were Russians and Jews and Mongols and all nationalities, which were later named as ancient "names" in the area (and much later).
  30. +3
    28 February 2013 15: 45
    here is a European engraving of the Battle of Kulikovo of that time. Find 10 differences between the troops ....?
    what is interesting from one ruler of a crown from another byzantine headdress ..? where is mom
    1. Region65
      -1
      28 February 2013 16: 16
      he was already trampled by horses and he simply could not pose for the engraver at that moment.
    2. Marek Rozny
      0
      28 February 2013 17: 31
      damn ... yes the Byzantine fashion of drawing was in Russia. then Roman fashion in paintings was during the Romanovs, when portraits of nobles were depicted in toga or painted in the form of Western European knights.
    3. 0
      28 February 2013 20: 27
      pinachet,
      During troubled times, strife was torn apart by these territories, which later became present-day Russia. They fought among themselves and there were no Mongols.
  31. Region65
    +5
    28 February 2013 16: 15
    baby talk :) the old Russian proverb is good - whoever remembers the old one, there you go :) now there is an era of obtuse whiners :) the Japanese who have leapt up the war are asking for the Kurils back, some mullahs-nasrallah are asking to cancel the Kulik battle, soon the Fritzes will conquer, which in fact, there was no Kursk arc, and penguins in the Arctic won the Second World War :)))))))))) being unable to defeat the winner, they begin to lie and derogate his victories :)))))
    1. +1
      28 February 2013 22: 24
      ... And who will forget two. And about drawing, maybe. Only the description (verbal) of Genghis Khan somehow does not correspond to the appearance of the Mongol, Buryats, etc. Quite rightly, one of the visitors noticed: scratch the Tatar, find Russian.
      1. Marek Rozny
        +1
        28 February 2013 22: 50
        Genghis Khan's verbal description is fully consistent with the Turkic type. Red Tatars and Kazakhs are now full. And blue eyes are found in both the Türks and the Mongols. And green and gray are generally common.

        And here is a photo of the Mongol. Pay attention to his eyes:

  32. +1
    28 February 2013 16: 30
    Appendix: results of georadar sounding of the field, 2006.
    Where is the grandiose burial described.
    The battle was in the then suburbs.
    radar-stv.narod.ru/works/arheology/061114/061114.html
  33. Kammer
    -2
    28 February 2013 18: 13
    Good day to all. Link to the topic. I think it's hard to come up with a more informed source.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_WnlokRQyg

    That's how it is. There are many more questions than answers.
  34. +5
    28 February 2013 21: 21
    Quote: Beck
    against the "illegitimate" Mamai

    And what is the illegitimacy of Mamaia? Under Khan Berdibek he was a beclarbek ("minister" of defense, foreign affairs and supreme judge), the position is very high and, most importantly, commanding the army. After the assassination of Berdibek, his emirs (main officials) were also subject to liquidation. The new Khan of the Golden Horde of Kulp was an impostor, who discovered a whole series of subsequent impostors on the throne of the khanate. What could Mamay do, who understood that, despite marrying the daughter of Berdibek, he did not have a direct right to the throne of the khan and was subject to liquidation? He selects the surviving after the massacre of the descendants of the Batuids (from the descendants of Jochi), mostly minors, and nominates them for the khanate in his part of the Horde as opposed to the left-bank Horde (Sarai), and manipulates them in his interests. If the acting batuid had a consciousness of his own opinion, then he replaced him with another protege. His last bet was Muhammed-Bulak (Bulek), whom he raised to the khan’s throne as an 8-year-old in 1370, but the khan died in the Battle of Kulikovo at the 18-year-old age. But Mamai himself did not pretend to the throne.
    1. Marek Rozny
      0
      28 February 2013 22: 19
      Beck expressed himself not quite accurately, but the essence is clear to everyone. De jure Mamai, of course, was not a ruler, but de facto ...
  35. +5
    28 February 2013 22: 40
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    De jure Mamai, of course, was not a ruler, but de facto ...

    So what? Are there few such examples in the stories of government by the state? The main thing is that he did not threaten the khan’s throne, but put forward rulers who were legal by blood. And the fact that he manipulated them is the problem of the rulers themselves.
    1. Marek Rozny
      +1
      28 February 2013 23: 02
      Well, we do not call the chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR Kalinin the real ruler of the Soviet Union, although legally this was so. A de facto taxis member of the Politburo Joseph Vissarionovich.
  36. +6
    28 February 2013 23: 09
    Quote: knn54
    from Persian sources it is known that in 1388 the Russian troops were part of the great army of Tokhtamysh "

    1388 year is characterized by the struggle of Tokhtamysh with his former "guardian" Tamerlan for Central Asia. He gathered "from all over Ulus a huge army of Russians, Circassians, Bulgars, Kipchaks, Alans of Crimea, Kafa and Azak, Bashkirs and Moksha - an army that cannot be counted." But the 1388-89 campaign. nevertheless, Tokhtamysh was lost. Decisive battles between Tokhtamysh and Timur were yet to come.

    Quote: Marek Rozny
    A de facto taxis member of the Politburo Joseph Vissarionovich.

    Well, we do not call Stalin an "illegitimate ruler." In principle, whoever has power is the khan. Although Mamai, I emphasize, did not claim the throne, unlike the impostors of the Sarai Horde from 1359.
    1. Marek Rozny
      -1
      28 February 2013 23: 53
      Veteran, you, in my opinion, have driven yourself into a dead end here with this legitimacy. Stalin formally in the 30s also did not apply for the post of head of the Soviet state (where Kalinin was located). Let's just assume that de facto both Mamai and Stalin (in the 30s) were informal illegitimate rulers of the Crimean yurt (conventional name) and the USSR, respectively.
  37. +5
    28 February 2013 23: 31
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Genghis Khan's description fully corresponds to the Turkic type

    Marek, tell me, do you want to put the Mongols in the Türks and deprive them of the right to authenticity? Why You Need It?
    1. Marek Rozny
      +1
      28 February 2013 23: 46
      The Mongols, like the Turks, are divided into genera. Can you name the clans that are mentioned in the Persian, Arabic, Chinese, Turkic annals of which the army of Genghis Khan consisted? There is not a single Mongolian clan, only the Turkic ones - Naiman, Kerei, Jalaiyr, Konyrat, Argyns, Kypshaks, etc. And nowhere are there any signs of the actual Khalkha-Mongol clans (Hoshiuts, Torgouts, etc.)
  38. +7
    1 March 2013 00: 27
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    The theme of Oleg Ryazansky is not disclosed, there is a theory that he, being between two fires, preferred Dmitry

    Nothing can be considered a theory here, only hypotheses can take place. The Principality of Ryazan had a special fate, it was most vulnerable to Horde raids. In 1377, the principality was ruined by Arapsha, Oleg Ryazansky himself miraculously escaped capture. In 1379, it was again ravaged by Mamai. Therefore, Oleg was forced to pursue a very “flexible” policy in order to preserve his principality. In 1380, Oleg entered into negotiations with Mamai and Jagiello against Moscow Dmitry, however, he didn’t take any action against Dmitry, and Ryazans participated in the Battle of Kulikovo, in particular, it is reported that 70 Ryazan boyars died on Dmitry’s side. In 1381, Oleg concluded an agreement with Dmitry similar to Moscow-Tver, but in 1382 his people showed Tohtamysh fords through the Oka to Moscow (which is again a controversial version), but on the way back Tokhtamysh devastated the Ryazan lands, and then for their betrayal, the second time that same year, Dmitry Donskoy ruined them. Only in 1387 did Oleg make “eternal peace” with Dmitry Donskoy and became related to him by children.

    Quote: Marek Rozny
    You, in my opinion, have driven yourself into a dead end here with this legitimacy

    In my opinion, it was you who drove yourself into a dead end with your "informal illegitimate".
    As for the Mongols, let’s begin with an excerpt from the Jami at-tawarih of your respected Rashid al-Din:
    “Bartan Bahadur was the grandfather of Genghis Khan, and in Mongolian grandfather is called ebuge. The first son of Bartan Bahadur was named Mungetu-Kiyan. The third son was Yesugei Bahadur, who is the father of Genghis Khan, while the Mongols call the father Echige. The Kiyat-Burjigin tribe comes from its offspring. The meaning of “burdzhigin” is “blue-eyed”. All kiyats come from the descendants of Mungedu-Kiyan. This name was given to him because he was a great Bahadur, because the word kiyam means in Mongolian "rapidly rushing stream." He was the sovereign of most of the Mongol tribes. Esugei Bahadur fought and fought a lot with other tribes of the Mongols, and with the tribes of the Tatars, in the same way with the Chita emirs and troops. Most of the wars and battles of Esugei Bahadur were with the Tatars, which at that time were the most famous Turkic tribes and whose army was more numerous than others. Yesugei Bahadur went to war with the Tatars and killed Temujin-Uge and Kori-Buka, who were their sovereigns, and their herds were looted by the good. When he came back, Genghis Khan was happily born. Yesugei Bahadur, considering this event [victory over the Tatars] for a happy omen, put him the name Temujin. His eldest wife, Oelun-fujin, she was also called Oelun-eke, she was a fool from the tribe. Fujin in Haitian is the wife, and since they [the Esugei Bahadur tribes] lived near the borders of that state [i.e. Hit], then used their expression. The first son - Temujin, who, when he, having killed the sovereign of the Naimans, became a sovereign at the age of fifty, was given the nickname Genghis Khan. "
    1. Marek Rozny
      +2
      1 March 2013 03: 07
      And what do I see in the text of Rashid al-Din? Turkic names and titles.
      Bartan Bahadur, Mungetu-Kiyan (Mangi Kiyan), Esikey-Bahadur, Temujchin (Temirshin), Kore-Buka.
  39. +6
    2 March 2013 14: 42
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Turkic names

    Anthroponymy in this case cannot be the supporting argument of the proof, otherwise we would have to consider Scandinavians typically Russian princes Igor Novgorod-Seversky, Oleg Ryazansky, etc. In Central Asia, the privileged caste of the Mongol part of the conquerors quickly disappeared into a much larger Turkic environment, and this was accompanied by onomastic flows into the Kipchak languages. Among the Turks, for example, it became prestigious to adopt Mongolian names, to classify themselves as some Mongolian tribes, which yielded military-administrative benefits. This was very easy to do, because both life and lifestyle, cohabitation in the territories, universal paganism, joint military formations and campaigns not only did not create obstacles to this, but contributed to this as soon as possible. The massive predominance of the Türks led to the complete rapid displacement from the environment of the Mongol descendants of the Mongolian language itself. Even at the first time of their rule, the Mongol khans, writing documents in the Mongolian language, necessarily duplicated them in Turkic, and soon they began to draw up only in the Turkic language.
    In Russia, for example, the Scandinavian language could not and could not take root (as for Germanisms in the Russian language, they have different temporary origins - from Gothic time to late medieval and even later), the Vikings disappeared into the vast Slavic environment, which was already dominated by its stable military democratic society. However, the “prestige” of names still remained for some time, hence many princely Oleg, Igori, and Olga.
    1. Marek Rozny
      +1
      4 March 2013 15: 39
      Veteran, then it turns out that the ancestors of Genghis Khan surrendered before the birth of Genghis Khan himself))))
      In addition, what Mongolian names suddenly appeared among the Turks? Where did you get this?))))) There are Persian, Arabic names. There are European ones. But the Turks do not have a single Mongolian name. Generally. For the Turks, they are often not even pronounced at all. To make it clear - ask the Chinese to pronounce the name "Vladimir Miroshnichenko" and laugh at the situation. Likewise, a Kazakh is unable to properly pronounce a Mongolian name. We do not have any distorted Mongolian names, much less in their pure form. At the same time, a huge layer of borrowed names from other peoples ...
      The belief of the Turks and Mongols differs as the Voodoo religion from Judaism. We have only one concept that seems to be in common - "tengri" (tangir). But this word has a different meaning among our peoples. The Turks have Tengri as the only god, and the Mongols have millions of all kinds of Tengri.
      Life, economics, and military affairs are really similar, after all, both peoples — the steppes of Eurasia, and the proto-Mongols all the time borrowed something from the Türks, who were distinguished by the fact that they constantly created military empires and dominated the Steppes, and unlike the ancestors of the Mongols . Often with the proto-Mongols, the Türks acted together against a third party, but there was no mixing of peoples between them. Only part of the Kyrgyz (Burut) in Siberia was assimilated by the Mongols, as a result of which the Buryats appeared.
      Regarding the use of the language, the Chingizids wrote overwhelmingly in the Turkic language. The facts of using the Mongolian language are isolated and limited locally. Other languages ​​of the Empire were used in the same way, including Chinese.

      Z.Y. The Scandinavian names in the Rurikovich just point to their Scandinavian origin. Slavs bore Slavic names. Princes are usually their relatives - Varangian. Ordinary Slavs, who gave rise to the Russian people, did not use the Scandinavian names for a long time, preferring either Slavic or (later) Christian names. A simple Russian peasant did not bear the name Oleg or Gleb. Because he is not Scandinavian, unlike his prince.
      1. Beck
        0
        4 March 2013 15: 53
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        In addition, what Mongol names suddenly appeared among the Turks? Where did you get this?


        I will add. Veteran, read the Mongol names of that distant time

        - Esen, Gumechi, Shola-Ubushi, Ochirtu-Tsetsen, Tsevan Rabdan, Galdan-Tseren.

        Now read the other names.

        Chinggis (Shyngys), Subudai, Borondai, Jochi, Tolui, Guyuk.

        Here, not a linguist can see that the origin of these names is different. The first names are Mongolian. Second names are Turkic.
  40. Beck
    +4
    2 March 2013 15: 42
    Quote: Veteran
    The massive predominance of the Türks led to the complete rapid displacement from the environment of the Mongol descendants of the Mongolian language itself.


    I agree. This happens. The whole question is, how long does it take? How long does it take for the conqueror to finally assimilate and lose his tongue among the conquered peoples? Although the language is considered the most stable and long sign of nationality. So how long does it take ???

    10 years from the day of the death of Genghis Khan in 1227 until the campaign of Batu Khan in Russia in 1237.

    Or 16 years, from the day of the final conquest of Khorezm and the steppes of Kazakhstan in 1221 and before the campaign of Batu Khan to Russia in 1237.

    And what do you think such terms are sufficient to forget your nationality and language?

    Or is it a lot? And 5-8 years is enough.

    If not laziness, read my yesterday’s comment above, not far from the end of the page.
  41. +6
    2 March 2013 19: 18
    Quote: Beck
    How long does it take for the conqueror to finally assimilate and lose his tongue among the conquered peoples? Although the language is considered the most stable and long sign of nationality. So how long does it take ???

    Are you trying to figure out the universal time standard for language transformation? It is simply not possible. Everywhere and in different areas, this happened in different ways. Especially in such vast spaces as the Mongol Empire was originally. If we take the territory of the Golden Horde - Ulus Juchi (as an independent state from 1266 to 1459), then the small Mongol elite was very quickly assimilated by the local Turkic population, mainly Polovtsy, who gave the basis for the new Tatar language (based on Old Tatar ) A great influence on the formation of the ethnos of this state was made by the Bulgars, from whom from the 10th - 11th centuries. there was writing (based on Arabic graphics), Islamic traditions, urban culture. On the basis of the traditions of the peoples united in one state, it developed its own ethnopolitical ideology, culture, and symbols of community. All this led to the ethnocultural consolidation of the Golden Horde aristocracy, military service classes, the Muslim clergy and the formation in the 14th century of a new Tatar ethnopolitical community. So the process of language transformation in this case is associated with the formation of a new Tatar ethnic group, and in the western part of the Ulus of Dzhuchi it took about several decades.
  42. Beck
    +1
    2 March 2013 21: 32
    Quote: Veteran
    Are you trying to figure out the universal time standard for language transformation?


    If you answer in this vein, it means you have not read my top comment. I wrote my last koment in connection with the top koment. And you, in my opinion, are repeating the excuse of academic scientists who, with this excuse, wanted to obscure the big absurdity.

    Why did I take 10 years and 16 years? Because they end in 1237, when the troops of Batu Khan invaded Russia. And unbelievable they all, ordinary "Mongols" and Mongolian khans, completely forgot their language, and all began to speak Turkic, and write in Turkic, and all of a sudden they became Turkic.

    Why are you talking only about the top. In many textbooks, in almost all, it is claimed that whole tribes have become insurgent. Nyman, barlas, kereity. That’s how they were in 10 or 16 years, by 1237 they could be denied?
  43. +6
    2 March 2013 23: 32
    Firstly, from the 5th to the 15th centuries, the Turkic language was the language of interethnic communication in most of Eurasia. Even under the Mongol khans Batu and Munk, all official documents in the Golden Horde, international correspondence, in addition to Mongolian, were conducted in the Turkic language. From the XIII to the beginning of the XX century. there was a single literary Turkic language - "Türks", which laid the foundation for all local Turkic languages ​​in Central Asia.
    Secondly, already in the Batu army, the indigenous Mongols accounted for less than 10%. In the 1250's, Subedei, in a campaign in western Russia, Lithuania and Poland, was led by two tumens prepared from the Kipchaks. The brilliant Mongol commander for 9 years before the invasion of Europe managed to create a real army of representatives of different nations Ulus Jochi. After the western campaign, a large mass of Ulus troops returned to Asia. The main mass of nomads remained Kipchaks, the Mongols among the Kipchak world were only a privileged dominant layer, which was gradually diluted by the Turks, and after the mass adoption of Islam, the construction of urban settlements, mosques, etc. in the Golden Horde, the last differences were almost erased. After all the victories, the Mongol system of Batu Khan could not exist in the form of a stable empire, have large resources and feed if it did not rely on the conquered settled peoples, especially the Volga Bulgaria, and did not accept a different, “Chinese” model development. And here the main issues are economic, administrative, domestic, and not linguistic.
    13 of the Mongol khans sat on the Chinese throne, 11 of which were emperors of the Yuan dynasty, and all of them used the Chinese language.
    The Viking-Scandinavian Rolf is a “pedestrian”, having conquered part of the West Frankish Kingdom with his squad in 866 and settled at the mouth of the Seine, becomes the Franco-Roman Rollon, founded the Duchy of Norman in 911, takes over the Frankish legal system, language, and after a hundred years, his descendant William the Conqueror was conquered by the defeated Anglo-Saxons as a Frenchman, because he speaks French.
    1. Beck
      +3
      3 March 2013 15: 04
      Your opinion about the impunity of the Mongol is a generally accepted opinion that hides a great absurdity.

      When the ethnonym Mongol appeared in the scientific literature. Only since! 9th century. Someone Cruz from Western scholars, not knowing, in those days of the whole history, connected the Mongols of the present Mongolia with the conquerors who came to Russia in the 13th century. Why, why it is not known. Since then there were Russian chronicles in which the conquerors are not called Mongols. They are called only the Horde and Tatars.

      Here, in order to get around this, joke was invented. Like the Mongol tribes of Naiman, Barlas, Kereity and others, having captured the steppes of Kazakhstan, they immediately surrendered. For 10-16 years. This is not the tip, these are the tribes that came from western Mongolia. And another 10% of the Mongols would never have held power in the Barrens.

      And the khans of China only used the Chinese language, because the entire court consisted of Chinese officials and letters were written to the Chinese population. But the khans of the Golden Horde lived in a separate capital and their environment was not Russian. And why only the Naiman Barlas tribe and others became known. Why, for 300 years, the Mordovians, the peoples of the Caucasus, became extinct, with the exception of the Balkars.

      According to the mayhem, talk of jailing only from the fact that they cannot explain where the whole Mongol tribes who came to the steppes of Kazakhstan went.
  44. +1
    3 March 2013 20: 26
    Understanding, the essence of the Battle of Kulikovo is inextricably linked with the so-called Tatar-Mongol yoke, which in itself raises a lot of questions from some representatives of historical science, and even ordinary people interested in this subject. It is hardly possible now to clearly state that the Russians fought on the one hand, and the Tatars on the other.
    According to Gumilyov (his analysis of the source), on the side of Mamaia, in addition to the same Tatars (the Volga Tatars were reluctant to serve him), Poles, Lithuanians, Crimeans, Genoese, Yasses, Kasogs fought ... The same Genoese acted as sponsors. As part of the Russian troops, the Volga and Siberian Tatars are fighting (the guys from Tatarstan can begin to breathe more evenly). The Russian army consisted of princely troops on horseback and on foot, from the militia. The cavalry was generally Russian-Tatar (baptized Tatars) -Litovian (defected to the Russian side).
    And now the most interesting Horde was called not only the army of Mamaia, but also the Russian army! From the same Zadonshchina: * What are you, filthy Mamai, encroaching on Russian land? That was beaten by the Horde Zalesskaya *. They say Mamaia after the defeat on the Kulikovo field. Zalessky land, as is known Vladimir-Suzdal Rus.
    Enough questions is not it? For example, so what is the Horde?
  45. +5
    3 March 2013 22: 43
    Quote: Beck
    When the ethnonym Mongol appeared in the scientific literature. Only from! 9 century.

    You are very late in the chronology of the Mongols.
    The most ancient source about the Mongols is the Mongolian-Chinese manuscript Mongolyn Nuuts Tovchoo (Yuan-chao bi-shi) - The Secret Tale of the Mongols, compiled by a Mongolian author in 1240 in Mongolian in Chinese hieroglyphic transcription with duplication in Chinese language. Until 1872, the manuscript was stored in the Beijing Palace Library, and at about the same time Kafarov made its first translation into Russian (from Chinese interlinear). In the twentieth century. the manuscript was translated into many other languages, then translations were made from the restored Mongolian text. A classic was the translation of Kozin (1941 g.) “The Secret Legend. The Mongolian Chronicle of 1240 ”(“ Mongγol-un Niγuca tobčiyan. Yuan Chao Bi Shi. Mongolian Ordinary Collection ”). For the first time, information comes from this source about the first Mongolian khan (“the khan of all the Mongols”) - Khabul-Khagan, who led a large association of clans in the 1-th floor. XII century In the future, under the name of Kabul Khan, Rashid ad-Din, who wrote in 1301 - 1310 years, displays him. his history of the Mongols in Jami at-tavarikh for the Iranian Khan Mongolian branch - the Persian ilkhans (you can see the excerpts from my work I quoted earlier).
    The first European source about the Mongols is considered to be the work “History of the Mongols, called by us Tatars” by Giovanni del Plano Carpini, the archbishop who visited Saray in 1246, where he met with Batu Khan and then visited the nomad headquarters near Khan Guyuk in Karakorum.
    1. Beck
      +1
      4 March 2013 12: 15
      Quote: Veteran
      You are very late in the chronology of the Mongols.


      I was referring to academic science. And the "Secret Legend" can be a census. After all, it is not clear why the tribes of the Manchu group, the Xianbi, who lived in Inner Mongolia and east of the Khingan, suddenly took the name Mongol upon themselves in the 13th century. What are the reasons?

      And inconsistencies, in my opinion. The true date of compilation of the Treasure is unknown. 1240 is presumably, or rather, this date is taken from the ceiling. And it is not known who wrote. Concealment is known only in Chinese transcription of the 14th century. There is no authentic Mongolian script. And the exact name of this transcription in Chinese sounds like this - "The Secret History of the Yuan Dynasty". There is no word about the Mongol. It speaks of the dynasty of the descendants of Genghis Khan, who fell in 1368. Most likely this Secret story, for the needs of the dynasty, was written by Chinese courtiers, using oral legends. And it is natural for any dynasty to compose its chronology.

      Under Khabul-Kagan and earlier, its tribes were not called Mongols. These were the xianbi tribes. During the time of Genghis Khan, the common, political name Mongol, Mynkol, associations of various tribes, were taken over by descendants of the Xianbi Habul tribes. And later historians transferred the political ethnonym to syanbi, at a later date than the formation of this ethnonym. Subsequently, the Turkic tribes returned to their former ethnonyms, Naimans, Kerets and others. And the syanbi left to themselves.

      Plano Carpini visited Karakorum in 1246 and was received by Khan Guyuk. And he correctly wrote that he visited the Mongals, since by that time the political name Mongol was still in memory, but had already been rejected by many Turkic tribes. Therefore, Karpini makes a reservation - now called Tatars. And why would the "Mongols" Batu and Guyuk allow themselves to be called some kind of Tatars?

      Tatars, this is a Russian, distorted pronunciation of the word Turk (singular). If a group of Turks is asked who they will be, They will answer - Biz Turkilar., plural of the word Turk - We are Turki. That's when different tribes of Türks came to Russia and they called themselves generalized - We are Türkylar. From here comes a number - Turkilar, Torkilar, Tatars, Tatars, Tatars.
  46. +5
    4 March 2013 20: 07
    Quote: Beck
    Someone Cruz

    Quote: Beck
    Russian chronicles in which the conquerors are not called Mongols

    For more than a millennium, the term "Tatars" has changed its meaning as the historical fate of peoples evolved, and served as an ethnonym and socionim. All R. XII century., With the filing of the Chinese, who began to call the Tatars ("yes-tribute") of all nomads in the eastern part of the Great Steppe, regardless of their ethnicity, the ethnonym turns into socionym, gets an expanded meaning. This broad interpretation did not change even the sharp change in the situation in the Steppe as a result of the revival of the Mongol tribes and their gaining military-political dominance after the military victories of Temujin at the beginning of the 13th century, the subjugation of the Mongol-speaking and Turkic-speaking tribes to him, and the “Tatars” tribe itself (that time) Temujin was almost destroyed. Subsequently, during the creation and development of the “imperial” army of Genghis Khan and his closest descendants, the Mongolian tribal division was abolished and gave way to the division according to fogs and military branches.
    From the 1245 of the year until the 18th century, and sometimes even later, Western Europeans collectively called all Asian nomadic and semi-nomadic Turkic and Mongolian peoples "Tatars." The Polovtsy, who lived much west of the Siberian-Asian steppe and, naturally, did not participate in its “showdowns”, but who underwent the first attacks, also called the different tribes of Genghis Khan warriors as “Tatars”, from them this name came to the ancient Russian people, who did not hear about the East Asian steppes: “In 1223, an unknown people appeared; an unheard of army came, godless Tatars, about whom no one knows well who they are and where they came from, what their language is, and what tribe they are, and what kind of faith they have ... ” The complete ignorance of the ethnos of the conquerors who came determined the adoption of the Tatars ethnotermin and even the application of the definitive words to them: "filthy," "wicked," "godless Ishmaelites," "Hagarians."
    The people of our time, called the Tatars, are a people with local concentrations, whose ethno-political community was formed in the bowels of the Golden Horde in the XIV-XV centuries. and then, with the collapse of the Horde in the 15th century, it dispersed into sub-ethnic communities.
    In 1817, H. Kruse corrected the mistake by replacing the incorrect term “Tatar yoke” with “Mongol-Tatar yoke” so that the real meaning would not be distorted, there would be no confusion of the “Tatars” tribe, who were originally part of the Mongol Khanate, with the modern people “ Tatars. "
  47. +5
    4 March 2013 23: 45
    Quote: Beck
    academic science

    I mainly share the views of I.N. Undasynov on this historical problem, therefore, I will give its texture (in abbreviation) below.
    “From the 5th century, and perhaps even much earlier, in the north-west of Manchuria, a large group of Mongol-speaking tribes lived on the Argun River. It came to the attention of Chinese chroniclers, apparently, at the end of the VI century. This group of tribes of the latter was collectively called the term shivei. According to experts, the Shiwei tribes were a northern group of Syanbians, in turn related to the Khitan. At the beginning of the VII century. Shiveans were subjugated by the Turks, who called them Tatars. The name Tatars is believed to have been the ethnonym of the most powerful tribes from the Shiwei group, which included the Mongols. They were first mentioned in sources in the X century. like mangyu. In the future, this term in Chinese historiography was firmly entrenched. By that time, the Tatars and Mongols and a number of other Mongol-speaking tribes had migrated west and settled on the territory of Mongolia - from the Great Wall of China to the taiga zone. In medieval Chinese historiography, all the tribes living in that region were collectively called Tatars (Chinese da-da). Moreover, according to the economic and cultural principle, they were divided into white Tatars, Black Tatars and wild Tatars.
    The Tatars, being a large and aggressive people, and experienced warriors, constantly fought with their neighbors, robbed them, enslaved the captured enemies. Those, apparently, were glorious. But they, unlike the really great steppe peoples, such as the Huns, Turkuts, Uighurs, Oguzes, Kypchaks, Mongols, etc., did not solve a single major task posed to them by history. They failed to do even the most necessary, namely: unite and create a Tatar power. Unable to create a mighty power in the east of the Great Steppe and unite the ethnic groups living there, the Tatars went into historical oblivion, without glorifying themselves with anything. ”
  48. +5
    5 March 2013 00: 05
    Next.
    “Why did the neighbors (and not only them) call this group of Mongolian-speaking tribes by the generalized term“ Tatars? ”Very often, throughout not only ancient or medieval history, but also in our time, representatives of other potestary or political formations, foreigners called them by name the largest or dominant ethnos The term "Tatars", as a generalized name for a number (but not all!) of Mongolian-speaking ethnic groups, spread in the steppes of Central Asia and further to the west by the Turks, who in the XNUMXth century conquered their main association, known as the Oguz Tatars. From here everything went until it reached Russia and Central Europe in the XNUMXth century.There, however, the Tatars were called Tartars, that is, immigrants from Hell.Here the Europeans made a mistake twice: the tribes that invaded first the Russian principalities and then into Europe They were neither Tatars, nor, moreover, immigrants from Hell, they were mainly Mongol and Kypchak tribes.
    In the XII century. The most famous and influential ethnic groups in Central Asia, apart from the Tatars proper, were the Kidans, Naimans, Kereits, Merkits, Oirats and Mongols. All of them, however, were very unlucky: in endless wars with the Manchu tribes and China, as well as among themselves, they all suffered serious defeats at different times. As a result, by the beginning of the XIII century. the hegemons of Central Asia, and by the middle of the same century the Mongols became the rulers of the entire Great Steppe and many of the settled countries of Asia and Europe. The Mongols owe their unprecedented successes in many respects to their master Chinggis Khan. "
    1. Marek Rozny
      -1
      5 March 2013 10: 14
      Mongols and Turks are divided into clans and subgroups. When they simply write "Mongols", then one picture appears in the head, and when specific clans of "Mongols" are indicated, then a clear picture is immediately built - the army and state apparatus of Genghis Khan consisted of the Turks.
      If instead of clans you write simply "Mongols", then the picture looks distorted. For example, the Chechens were citizens of the USSR, i.e. Soviet people. If we use not their name, but the general concept of "Soviet people", then some historian will write in a couple of centuries that in December 1994 the Russian army attacked the Soviet people and destroyed the capital of the Soviet people - the city of Grozny.
      Did you catch the difference?
  49. +7
    5 March 2013 00: 23
    And the last.
    “Until the XIII century. the Mongols did not know the written language. The history of the genus was transmitted orally from the older generation to the younger. And only in 1240 did an unknown author publish a brief genealogy of the Mongols, mainly of the genus in which Temuchin was born, who later became famous as Genghis Khan. This anonymous essay, known as the “Secret History of the Mongols” (or as “The Secret History of the Mongols”), is still one of the main sources on the medieval history of the Mongols. And although it, according to the historian G.V. Vernadsky, is “a heroic poem rather than a scientific treatise”, it contains a large layer of genuine facts that are absent in other sources that have reached us. The fifth descendant of Bodonchar, named Khabul-Khagan, ruled, according to The Secret Tale, by all the Mongols. This time (mid-12th century) was the period of the highest rise - the unification of the Mongol tribes. Later in the course of numerous wars, they were so weakened that they were divided into separate clans and tribes, and even the ethnonym "Mongol" ceased to be used, that is, ethnic group fell apart. Forgetting their ethnonym, the Mongols wandered in small tribal groups. The ethnonym "Mongol" was forgotten by both them and their neighbors. One of his fragments was led by the seventh descendant of Bodanchar, Esugei-bahatur. In peacetime, his influence extended, apparently, only to a small part of the Borjigins and some generations of their related Taijuts. Yesugei-Bagatur could not be the ruler of most of the Mongol tribes for the simple reason that the ethnic group of the Mongols, who was still in the middle of the XII century. powerful and belligerent, by the end of the same century "scattered rose" and was revived only at the beginning of the XIII century. But the main units of the Mongols survived. They consisted of Mongol niruns and Mongol darlekins. Niruns are Mongolian tribes and clans that originated from the legendary Alan-Goa, and tribes descending from the Alan-Goa clan to the sixth generation belonged to the Niruns; those who descended from the sixth generation of Alan-Goa, from the clan of Khabul Khan, were called kiyats, and those who were direct descendants of Khabul Khan were considered kiyat-borjigins. It was the latter that was led by Esugey-bagatur. In addition to them, a small part of the taijiuts was part of the nomadic community headed by him. But Yesugei treacherously poisoned the Tatars at a joint meal. [However, his son Temuchin survived in difficult conditions and became Genghis Khan].
    In 1202 - 1205 years. the war in the Mongolian steppes reached its zenith. In the course of numerous bloody battles, the main Mongol-speaking tribes were defeated and subjugated by Genghis Khan, such as the Tatars, Merkits, Naimans, who changed the Kereites to him. The Tatars suffered the most damage during the steppe war. In 1202, they were defeated by the troops of Genghis Khan, the prisoners were mostly executed. On this, the Tatar ethnic group ended its historical path. The survivors were soon either killed in the wars of Genghis Khan or assimilated: some by the Mongols, most by the Kypchaks.
    In 1206, the winners gathered on the kurultai, which made historical decisions. First, Genghis Khan was re-elected Khan, but this time not part of the Mongol tribes and clans, but a vast power that united the main Mongol-speaking tribes and clans. Secondly, the creation of the Great Mongolian state was proclaimed. Thirdly, the Great Yasa compiled by Genghis Khan and his advisers was approved, a code of laws regulating the main aspects of the life of the Mongols, and then the peoples conquered by them. Fourth, the term “Mongol” was revived. At first it was used as the name of the state created by Genghis Khan, then it became the ethnonym of the Mongol-speaking tribes proper, and later the self-name of the superethnos. ”
    1. Marek Rozny
      -1
      5 March 2013 10: 29
      Concerning the ethnonym "Mongol". IMHO, this is one of the countless common Turkic ethnonyms that were forgotten immediately after the collapse of the next kaganate (just like we once were Soviet people, and now Russians, Kazakhstanis, etc.). Common ethnonyms were constantly changed by the Türks - by the name of the state, by the name of the ruler, or they simply took some "powerful" word as a self-name.
      Mongol, IMHO, from the Turkic "myol" (pronounced as "Mngol")." ol "- literally" hand ", but in the military sense this word simply means" army ".
      For example, "бolbashy" - "army leader / commander". "Mynkol" means "Giant army" (literally "Thousand armies").
      Everything is absolutely clear, understandable, without exaggeration and completely in the Turkic military spirit.
      1. Marek Rozny
        0
        5 March 2013 11: 31
        The present Mongols did not call themselves "Mongols" (as well as other Mongol peoples - Kalmyks, Buryats, Dzungars, Oirats). In the Middle Ages, they took the name "khalkha" (literally "shield") as a unifying ethnonym. By the way, they once borrowed this word from the Türks in ancient times ("kalkan" - "shield"; from "kalқa" - "cover / shelter", "kalgalau" - to cover, obscure).
        The territory of present-day Mongolia was called by the Turks in Turkic "Mongol ulus" ("Mongol allotment"), because it was there that Genghis Khan and his supporters first proclaimed themselves Mongols (mynkol). After the last Turks, led by Genghis Khan, left there in the 13th century, the lands were empty for some time. Then, the ancestors of the present-day Khalkha began to appear there (they left the territory of the modern PRC). They became residents of the Mongol ulus and the ethnonym "Mongol" passed to them. The same Khalkha adopted without change the name of the territory - "Mongol Uls" (now this is the official name of the state). But until now, the bulk of the Khalkha lives not in Mongolia, but on their ancestral lands in China (Inner Mongolia district).

        ZY Not quite the topic, but just a curious historical note. The name of the Mongolian capital Ulan Bator was given by ... Kazakh. The city was called Urga (by the way, it translates as "Headquarters", and in Turkic this word is "Horde") and in the 20s the Mongolian Bolsheviks decided to give the city a new name. They wanted to name it "Bator-khoto" (Bogatyr's City), but the representative of the Comintern, Kazakh Turar Ryskulov, proposed to name the city "Ulan-Bator" ("Red Bogatyr"). And so they did.
  50. +5
    5 March 2013 00: 45
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Scandinavian origin. Slavs bore Slavic names

    Already in the third tribe from Rurik, Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich was a typical Slav, and even more so they were princes Igor Svyatoslavovich Novgorod-Seversky (2-I half. XII century.) And Oleg Ivanovich Ryazansky (2-I half. XIV century.). You are inattentive, it was a question of an “overflow” of anthroponymy.
    1. Marek Rozny
      0
      5 March 2013 10: 45
      Svyatoslav Igorevich was not only a Scandinavian on his father's side, but his mother was "from the Varangians". At the same time, he himself led a Turkic way of life and even wore a forelock, which was uncharacteristic for the Eastern Slavs)) And as the chronicles say, Svyatoslav Igorevich appreciated the Russian lands because there you could take slaves and sell them to Europe. What is Slavic in it? Or did you decide that the name Svyatoslav itself is Slavic? This is from the Varangian (Germanic, Scandinavian) personal name "Svend Leif".
      Igor Svyatoslavovich is also the owner of a completely Scandinavian name.
      Oleg Ivanovich is a Scandinavian name, and the middle name is already from the Christian religion.
      Ruriks rarely had Slavic names. And their subjects, the Slavs, on the contrary, rarely had "princely" (Germanic) names.
      1. 0
        2 February 2017 13: 24
        After the "Scandinavians" I do not know what to say. If for you "Varangians" = "Scandinavians", then you are a classic Normanist, and at the same time hearing about "forelocks" is at least strange. Scandinavia, it is also the "island of Scandza" of ancient historians - this is the Scandinavian peninsula. The source of those who came from there is ready (and it was also called Gothia), Danes, Yutes, and Angles (for example, these were also, you can’t throw the “Ingling Saga” into the furnace). Varyagia, she is Vagriya (in German), she is also the region of Rostock-Schwerin - Ruyan-estuary r. Pena (our Pena!) Is a Slavic land, the birthplace of Rurik, the habitat of the Baltic Masters from antiquity and the "Dark Ages". Dans and Vikings have always been natural enemies and rivals of the Varangians, and they did not mix their squads. There is no place here to describe the difference between the Slavic (Varangian) and German (Scandinavian) mentalities. An example is enough that in much later times the same Harald "had not yet Hardrada" did not take root at the Kiev court, did not achieve the hands of the Russian princess, but fell down to Constantinople to mercenary, then took power in Denmark-Norway, died in England in 1066 at Stanford . The only possible1 “Scandinavian blood” in Rurikovich was the blood of the English Gita, the wife of Vladimir Monomakh, the daughter of Harold II, the granddaughter of Godwin Earl of Wessex, who was “like a Viking” who gained power during the conquest of England by Knut the Great. And even that, Godwin - Godin (in the English transcription) must be sorted out - everyone heard Stavr Godinovich.
    2. Beck
      +2
      5 March 2013 12: 28
      Quote: Veteran
      "Why did the neighbors (and not only them) call this group of Mongolian-speaking tribes by the generalized term" Tatars "?


      So. It seems to me that you are a professional historian. I'm an inquisitive lover. Answering everything already loses its meaning, as we start repeating itself and much is already simply lost sight of. Therefore, I will try to ask questions of the circumstances of which in academic history that led me to their formulation.

      There, in his youth. The Mongols (by which the ancestors of the present Mongols mean) conquer Russia. But they do not speak with the conquered, nor among themselves in the Mongolian language. Question How could this happen?
      Explanation from the textbook. The Mongolian tribes of Naimans, Kereits, Jalirs, Barlas and others, having conquered the steppes of Kazakhstan, became indiscriminate. The conquest ended in 1221. Genghis Khan died in 1227. Batu Khan went to Russia in 1236. Question. How in 15 years could entire tribes of conquerors take charge? Nomadic life does not imply a combination of nomadic auls into a single whole, where a confusion of languages ​​could occur. And how could the top of the Mongols have become in charge during this time. After all, the independence of their nation, their language, was stronger than now. And this is generally a shame for the khan to sit and watch his beloved people disappear. This is the subject of the Turks ought to be honored. And then 300 years of ownership of Russia did not force the conquerors to Russify. Because they lived separately, as in the Kazakhstan steppes with separate villages. Compare - for 15 years in the steppes it became indiscriminate, and for 300 years on the Valdai Upland they did not Russify.

      This is where my interest in explaining these phenomena came from.

      So you operated on the dates of centuries and years. Calling the Xianbi tribes and in the 5th century the Mongols. Yes, they were not called then the Mongols. In the Chinese annals of that time there is no such word. These were the tribes of the Manchu xianbi group. And after the 13th century, they studied the political ethnonym Mongol, in their works they began to transfer to the Syanbi tribes and their kindred ones. Now it turns out that the Mongols existed in the 5th century.

      "Secret Legend". You somehow got around what I wrote to you. There is no text in Mongolian. There is a Chinese transcription and it is called "The Secret History of the Yuan Dynasty". No more data. But it is known that the Yuan dynasty is a dynasty of conquerors that bore the political name Mongol. From here, conclusions are drawn. That it was written by some unknown Khalkha Mongol, unfounded. It was written in 1240. There is no text, but there is a date, unfounded. And in general, it is not known from which language the transcription was made and what was meant by the word Mynkol. Khalkha Mongols, today's, or political Mongols of the unification of Genghis Khan. And if the Chinese scribes considered the political name Mongol ethnic, then in their transcription they called the ancestors of Chinggis Khan to the Mongols. But were they Xianbei?

      As for the origin of the ethnonym Tatars, it is quite possible that from the Tartars. The Chinese spelling YES-YES does not fit the pronunciation of the Tatars. It was the latter who investigated the tartars and the Tatars pasted to yes, because it was necessary to determine the roots of the Tatars somewhere. And Genghis Khan did not destroy everyone without exception, these are fairy tales of literature. The main thing was submission.
  51. Beck
    +1
    5 March 2013 12: 45
    [quote=Beck]The main thing was submission[/quote]

    [quote=Veteran] Our contemporary people, called Tatars, are a people with local concentrations, whose ethnopolitical community was formed in the depths of the Golden Horde in the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries. and then, with the collapse of the Horde in the XNUMXth century, it split into subethnic communities.[/quote]
    [quote=Veteran]

    Here, it seems to me, what happened earlier with the political ethnonym Mongol in the steppes of Mongolia happened. Let the Tatars come from the Tartars or from the Turkilars in this case in another. But this is what the Russians called the entire conglomerate of Turkic tribes of conquerors. And the name Tatars passed on to the Turkic people Bulgars - Volga Bulgars. After the collapse of the Golden Horde, all the Turkic tribes returned to their ethnonyms, Kipchaks, Argyns, Naimans, etc. But the Bulgars retained the common Tatars. But historical enlightenment was already higher, and no one associates Batuhan’s campaigns in Poland and Hungary with the current Tatars. And the current Tatars do not attribute to themselves the entire history of the Golden Horde. How it happened with the Xianbei tribes. Quite possibly and unwittingly for them.

    It was historians, confused in the political ethnonym Mynkol and the ethnonym Khalkha-Mongol, who attributed all the actions of the political unification of Genghis Khan with the predominance of Turkic tribes to the Khalkha-Mongols.

    In the same way, confused, Tatar Khan Batu can be attributed to the current Tatars and its root can be traced to Volga Bulgaria and further to the proto-Bulgarians of Khan Asparukh.

    Of course it’s simplified, but intelligible.
  52. 0
    21 October 2016 15: 06
    Now I'm too lazy to rummage through the bookshelf.
    Well, there is a book by Sholokhov’s former literary secretary.
    There's an interesting version there, I read it.
    Oleg Ryazansky, neither himself nor his lands were subjected to damage after the Battle of Kulikovo,
    terror because he was a secret ally of Dmitry.
    His squad did not take part in the battle,
    Well, all the time she was between the troops of Dmitry and Jagiello.
    So he didn’t risk joining Mamai.
    I’m sure, yes I’m 100% sure, that we will never know the whole truth.
  53. +1
    23 October 2016 09: 55
    Quote: Nagaibak
    The first time I heard that the Battle of Kulikovo was not in the words of Tatar boys in a remote village near Tobolsk. When I asked where they got this information from, they answered, “The mullah told us.” Hehe... It was in 1989-90, I don’t remember exactly. Before the GKChP putsch, for sure. Minus article.

    Your comment just oozes nationalism. More recently, also before the State Emergency Committee, Tatarstan decided to secede and on August 30, 1990, the Supreme Council of the Tatar Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty of the Republic of Tatarstan.
    Nationalism always began with a distortion and rejection of history. An example is today's Ukraine. You don’t like the fact that someone in Rus' defeated Mamai, but this is a fact, and the mullah, who did not live during this massacre, especially cannot know the truth. But the legends of old times can no longer be erased from people’s memory (not those times), as happened during the baptism of Rus', when Byzantine monks in black robes destroyed people who knew and carried knowledge, and destroyed all Slavic writing. And the illiterate people (Slavs) forgot their history before the baptism of Rus'. Then they created a new alphabet for us and a new writing system so that even if someone finds Slavic writing, they will no longer understand anything.
    Your call not to delve into the history of Russia, not to get to the truth, to forget your past - will no longer pass!
  54. 0
    2 February 2017 12: 54
    I am for the 4th “Eurasian” version. There are more logical thoughts in it, but less interest in shielding any of the parties. The religious-Christian psychosis being spun around the Battle of Kulikovo is especially infuriating. At all times, religion has been a banner for fixing the difference between “friend and foe,” and statements about the “only righteous faith” were, are and will be tools of political managers.
  55. 0
    2 February 2017 13: 03
    Until it is clearly and clearly established WHAT the Horde actually was before the Muslim “Maidan” of Tsarevich Ozbyak (Uzbek), the issues of the Battle of Kulikovo will not be resolved. There are too many active “parties” around the Kulikovo field - 1a) Dmitry’s Muscovite, 1b) Venetian merchants, 2a) Oleg’s Ryazan, 2b) Jogaila’s Lithuanians, 3a) Mamai’s regiments 3b) Genoese 4a) Tokhtamysh 4b) Muslim “lobby” torn to pieces Horde. Such a mosaic. You can build an endless number of versions of who really was for whom, and what they wanted.
  56. +1
    16 February 2017 11: 12
    After reading the article, I got the impression that the Battle of Kulikovo was ONE OF THE BATTLES of that time, almost “battles of local significance,” as they said during the Great Patriotic War. I read earlier that Sergius of Radonezh inspired people for the Battle of Kulikovo for almost many years. His monastery, now the Trinity Lavra of St. Sergius, became the center of spiritual revival. People came there for moral and ethical support and were imbued with the spirit of opposition to the Horde. The article says almost nothing about the role of Sergius in the fight against the Horde. Little is said about Dmitry - he was born in 1350 and in 1380 he was only 30 years old, i.e. he was fully formed as a person during the active work of Sergius of Radonezh. Where did the 30-year-old commander get his combat experience? What battles did he participate in? How was the army organized at that time - was there a permanent composition or was mobilization announced for a specific war? We had to prepare for war! The topic is very broad and it is impossible to TRY to answer all the questions in one article. But the topic is interesting, we need to continue publishing.
    1. 0
      7 November 2017 17: 51
      What to work with? the author said - only 4 works and even those that do not inspire confidence.
  57. 0
    6 October 2017 15: 17
    How much can you talk and write to the Golden Horde about what happened and what didn’t happen?
    Figure it out. historians, with the Tatar-Mongol invasion, and then there will be little left to deal with.
  58. 0
    7 November 2017 17: 36
    I agree with the author that the Battle of Kulikovo played a big role for all of Great Rus'. Even just the fact that after this collision, inheritance through the male line became - as a custom - is still perceived as a dogma.
    And as a remark regarding Moscow Kulishki, I could make a reference to G.V. Nosovsky in my article. or Fomenko A.T., who wrote about this almost word for word, but the truth is about 10 years ago (smacks of plagiarism).