The impact of Russian and Japanese high-explosive shells on the mast, superstructures and unarmored parts of the hull in naval battles of the Russo-Japanese War

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The impact of Russian and Japanese high-explosive shells on the mast, superstructures and unarmored parts of the hull in naval battles of the Russo-Japanese War


In terms of explosive content


As you know, our 12-inch high-explosive projectile was an extremely strange design of ammunition. A fairly massive head part, thick walls and, as a result, a low explosive content. Only 6 kg of smokeless gunpowder, or (according to my calculations) 10 kg of wet pyroxylin, which, however, judging by the available data, high-explosive shells of ships fighting in the Russo-Japanese War were not equipped with.

With a projectile mass of 331,7 kg, its powder filling of 6 kg gave an explosive content of only 1,8%. The Japanese 12-dm projectile with a mass of 386 kg was loaded with 39,2 kg of shimosa, the explosive content in it was 13,7%. French and American high-explosive shells from the Russo-Japanese War, filled with black powder, carried 20,2 and 16,33 kg of explosives, which was 6,9% and 4,1%, respectively. Later domestic 331,7 kg high-explosive shells had an explosive content of 8,5%, and 470,9 kg - 12,5-13,1%.

It is quite obvious that for a high-explosive projectile 12-dm arr. 1894 had too little explosive content. Even the closest American landmine had 2,72 times more powder filling.

In terms of high explosive action


Here the Japanese shell had a clear advantage. Obviously, 39,2 kg of shimosa gave a burst of greater force than 6 kg of smokeless powder, but by how much? It will be possible to answer this question only after a detailed comparison of the results of Russian and Japanese shells hitting unarmored parts of ships, which I have not yet begun. Therefore, I will limit myself to the remark that even opponents of the “shell version” recognize the greater high explosiveness of Japanese shells, although estimates of the magnitude of this superiority vary.

In terms of fragmentation action


It must be said that this action is far from ideal for both the Russian and Japanese shells. When the Japanese land mine exploded, fragments flew in all directions, and this was correct from the point of view of achieving the maximum destructive effect. But the features of shimoza in combination with its large quantity led to the fact that the shell was broken into very small fragments, which quickly lost their destructive effect. At the same time, a significant part of them turned out to be so small that it was time to talk about them not as fragments, but as dust. As an illustration of this thesis, I present an interesting table by N. L. Klado from the article "Artillery and armor", published in "Military fleets and the naval reference book for 1906."


Pay attention to the weight of the collected fragments, and how much it differs for a projectile with a melinite filling - and this is with a very moderate explosive content in the projectile.

Russian shells produced more massive fragments, albeit in smaller quantities, but they, as a rule, scattered in a relatively narrow cone along the projectile’s flight path. In this cone, the fragmentation effect of the Russian projectile was superior to that of the Japanese one, since the fragments were larger, flew further and retained their lethal force longer, but in other directions it was inferior. However, sometimes our shells showed excellent results: earlier I described the hit in the Shikishima, which caused a lot of trouble for the Japanese precisely because of the fragments that scattered in all directions, including outside the usual cone of destruction.

However, the ability of Japanese shells to inflict significant fragmentation damage, affecting the combat effectiveness of the ship, should not be underestimated. I will not mention the numerous jamming of the towers of Russian battleships, since, apparently, it is not so much the Japanese fragments that are to blame for them, but the unsuccessful design of our towers (Mamarintsy). But even without jamming, the fragmentation potential of Japanese shells was enough for a lot.



Thus, a large-caliber shell that hit the hinged cover above the right 10-inch cannon of the bow turret of the squadron battleship Peresvet did not penetrate the armor, but produced a mass of fragments that killed three, including the turret commander, and disabled almost all the servants. In another case, the explosion of a large-caliber shell in the unarmored side of the Peresvet under the middle casemate disabled the 6-inch gun of this casemate. The hit of a Japanese high-explosive shell in the rear conning tower of the Peresvet resulted in the engine hatch being broken and the grate being covered with shrapnel, so that the ship’s middle engine had to be put out of action for half an hour.

The hit of a large-caliber projectile in the area of ​​the second chimney of the squadron battleship Sevastopol led to damage to the steam pipelines - apparently from fragments, otherwise this episode should be recorded as confirmation of the merits of the high-explosiveness of the Japanese projectile. The consequence of this hit was that Sevastopol, taking into account previously received damage to pipes and a drop in thrust, was forced to reduce speed to 8 knots and could no longer maintain its place in the ranks. This point is usually not paid attention to, because just at this time the Russian squadron mixed up the formation, which is why “Sevastopol” no longer stood out in the general heap, nevertheless, such a decrease in its speed is an indisputable achievement of Japanese heavy shells in the battle in line would lead to the fact that the battleship was forced to leave it.

When assessing the fragmentation effect of Japanese shells, one more nuance must be taken into account. Japanese shells could cause fragmentation damage not only with shell fragments, but also with fragments of unarmored structures destroyed by the energy of the explosion - with our shells this effect was noticeably less pronounced.

In general, it is very difficult to compare the fragmentation effect of Japanese and Russian 12-dm landmines. The only case when fragments of our shells knocked out a Japanese ship from the line was when two “goodies” hit the armored cruiser “Asama” in Tsushima. The shells exploded in the stern, in the area of ​​the middle deck, and their fragments pierced the bulkheads, the unarmored flooring of the lower deck, and the opposite side. As a result, water not only gained access inside the ship, but also led to extensive flooding: the Asama sank 1,5 m with its stern and was forced to break down.

But it should be taken into account that, judging by the size of the holes on the starboard side, where Russian shells hit, they were 10-dm caliber. Such shells had a more powerful charge than 12-dm land mines - 6,71 kg of wet pyroxylin instead of 6 kg of smokeless gunpowder, and the pyroxylin produced more fragments. In addition, the walls of the 10-inch projectile were thinner, which probably increased fragmentation damage outside the usual cone of their expansion, characteristic of projectiles filled with powder. Accordingly, I cannot vouch for the fact that if 10-inch caliber landmines had been in place of our 12-dm shells, the Asama would have received similar damage. However, this is a debatable issue.

Without claiming to be the ultimate truth, I am inclined to assess the fragmentation effect of Russian and Japanese shells as differently directed, but generally comparable - with only one reservation, which I will make below.

In terms of incendiary action


Here the unconditional primacy belongs to Japanese shells. Apparently, this is due both to the high temperature of the explosion and to the fact that the explosive did not detonate completely, scattering fragments with shimosa burning on them to the sides.

It is known that on the squadron battleship "Eagle" serious measures were taken against fires - wood stocks were removed from the rostrum, wooden cladding was removed from the deckhouse, living quarters, etc. However, 64 shells that hit it (the average of credible estimates) caused up to 30 fires - domestic shells did not demonstrate anything like this.

It should be taken into account that fires greatly reduced the combat capability of the ships of the Russian Imperial Navy. Optical sights "smoked", the operation of artillery and movement along the decks were hampered. The latter was especially important. To control artillery fire, the Japanese widely used messengers with signs indicating the distance to our ships obtained by rangefinder stations. In the roar of battle, such a method was quite clever and effective. But it was hardly possible on a ship engulfed in numerous fires.

Regarding the fuse


For reasons unknown to me, the 12-dm high-explosive shells of the 2nd Pacific Squadron were equipped with smokeless gunpowder instead of pyroxylin (most likely, the 1TOE shells were the same), which probably entailed the replacement of their double Brink shock tubes with tubes mod. 1894

Thus, the domestic 12-dm high-explosive projectile was freed from an unusual fuse intended for armor-piercing ammunition. Tube arr. 1894 was triggered when hitting water, thin side plating, rigging, etc. But the price for such an innovation was very high: an already small amount of pyroxylin (no more than 10 kg) was replaced by a completely grotesque 6 kg of smokeless gunpowder .

Oddly enough, it can be argued that Japanese and Russian landmines used the same type of fuse. Structurally, they differed, but both were bottom inertial. The difference between them was that:

1) In the Russian fuse, the firing pin was held in place by a special spring, which was unbent when fired, and in the Japanese one - by a special weight that was screwed from the firing pin during the flight of the projectile (due to the rotation of the latter);

2) In the tube arr. 1894, the primer had sufficient force to ignite the gunpowder in the projectile, while in the Japanese the primer ignited an intermediate charge of gunpowder or melinite.

Both fuses provided an action time of approximately 0,005 seconds.

However, the similarity of the fuse did not give the same effect. Japanese high-explosive shells usually exploded either at the moment of contact with an obstacle or immediately after it, but Russian 12-inch high-explosive shells could cover significant distances after contact with an obstacle. This “speed of action” of Japanese shells should be explained not by the design of the fuse, but by the properties of the shimosa, which is capable of detonating even upon impact with a minor obstacle. But the ability to cover a certain distance after contact with an obstacle was, so to speak, “both a bug and a feature” of Russian shells.

On the one hand, our 12-inch shells had the ability to explode inside the ship, piercing its side or deck and going deeper into its compartments, which seemed to make it possible to cause more damage to the enemy than an explosion on the hull. Indeed, such a projectile could, having caused destruction to several compartments, flying through them, then explode, hit several more compartments with fragments, and even pierce the opposite side. While killing emergency crew sailors, messengers and other crew members whose duties did not allow them to be protected by armor.

But, on the other hand, Russian 12-inch shells could penetrate a relatively thin barrier and explode outside the ship. For example, in the Battle of Tsushima, a shell, which the respected Alexey Rytik estimated at 12-dm, pierced the Asama pipe without breaking. At Shantung, the same thing happened with the Mikasa - a 12-inch projectile from a distance of 8500-9000 m (46-49 cables) pierced the upper part of the rear pipe, but exploded only when it fell into the water behind the battleship.

In these cases, we are not talking about a fuse defect at all, but about the nuance of its operation. When a projectile hits an obstacle, its speed decreases, while the striker inside it continues to move at the same speed. Therefore, the operating time of the sample tube. 1894 differed greatly depending on how much the obstacle slowed down the projectile (more on this here). And it is not surprising that a 12-inch land mine could explode ten or even tens of meters behind a light barrier, which could be, say, the spars or rigging of an enemy ship.

At the same time, the ruptures in the casing caused by Japanese shells destroyed the side much more than domestic ones. And since the edges of the holes caused by Japanese shells were often bent inward, repairing such damage with wooden shields applied from the inside was difficult or even impossible. Of course, this is not necessary for superstructures, but when Japanese land mines hit an unarmored side near the waterline, it turned out very unpleasant.


Holes received as a result of the battle of Ulsan, in which the caliber of Japanese artillery did not exceed 8 inches. Obviously, 12-inch “suitcases” could make much larger holes in the side

Of course, the squadron battleships of the Borodino and Tsesarevich type, which had a continuous armor belt along the waterline, were well protected against Japanese shells. But this cannot be said about the Retvizan - although its ends were covered with 51-mm armor plates, the latter could not protect the battleship from large-caliber landmines, as the battle in the Yellow Sea showed. The 10-12 dm shell, although it did not break such an armor plate, made a large dent with cracks in it, causing the deformed plate and side to let water into the bow of the battleship. Consequently, of the 7 battleships of the Arthurian squadron, only one had sufficient protection for the ends, and of the 12 Russian ships of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd armored detachments that fought in Tsushima, only 4.

The remaining Russian ships suffered greatly, finding themselves under fire from Japanese “suitcases”. In the battle of Shantung, “Poltava” received serious damage: two 12-inch Japanese shells formed a solid hole measuring 6,2x2 m in its stern. “Poltava” received a trim to the stern, its speed decreased, and it fell behind the main forces of the squadron, which It almost turned out to be fatal for him when he came under fire from the catching column of Kh. Togo. In addition, such a hole would hardly allow a breakthrough to Vladivostok. "Peresvet", having suffered destruction of the unarmored side in the nose, by the end of the battle it lost a lot of controllability. The ship had a list of 7-9 degrees and did not obey the rudder very well, which was corrected only when the commander ordered the compartments of the double-bottom space to be flooded, with the exception of the bow ones. “Peresvet” and “Tsesarevich” received serious damage to their chimneys, with a drop in thrust and a corresponding increase in coal consumption, which made it impossible for both ships to further attempt to break through to Vladivostok.

In the Battle of Tsushima, the decisive role in the death of the squadron battleship Oslyabya, apparently, was played by a single hit of a 12-inch Japanese shell in the bow end of the battleship, although here, again, in my opinion, the quality of the ship’s construction was primarily to blame. “Sisoy the Great” and “Admiral Ushakov” received serious flooding, which caused a significant decrease in speed, as a result of which they fell behind the main squadron at night. Of course, this lag did not in any way affect the results of the Tsushima battle, but this does not change the fact that hits from high-explosive shells knocked out 2 of our warships from the line. Despite the fact that both of them were not priority targets for Japanese artillerymen. As a matter of fact, both battleships remained in formation on the first day of the battle (“Sisoi the Great left the formation, but this was caused by a fire”) only due to the low speed of the Russian column. But as soon as Nebogatov increased his speed, dodging the attacks of the destroyers, they quickly fell behind.

Russian heavy shells, due to their ability to penetrate deep into the hulls of Japanese ships, could and often did cause extensive damage to compartments not protected by armor. With luck, the armored compartments also suffered - the crew of the 6-dm Shikishima gun was literally mowed down by shrapnel through the floor of the casemate, but this was rare. If the emergency parties or other Japanese sailors found themselves outside the protection of the armor and in the sectors of the “cones of death” formed by fragments of Russian shells, this led to serious crew losses

However, our 12-inch high-explosive shells, due to the “delayed” explosion, caused much less damage to the sides and chimneys of Japanese ships. The area of ​​the holes in the unarmored side was much smaller than that left by Japanese shells. As far as I know, the maximum size of the hole caused by a Russian 12-inch projectile in a vertical casing was 1,21 x 0,97 m (Iwate, Tsushima). This is less than the average Japanese 8-dm ammunition produced.


But even such a hole arose only because our land mine hit not the side of the cruiser, but the joint between the side and the deck, which delayed its movement and ensured an explosion during the passage of the skin

Since, when breaking through a light barrier, the projectile passed through it without breaking, it left relatively smooth edges that did not “roll” inward as happened when Japanese high-explosive shells exploded. This made it easier to seal such holes. Despite the presence of a sample tube. 1894, Russian 12-inch high-explosive shells did not always explode when they hit a chimney, examples of which have already been given above. Although sometimes this happened - a 12-inch shell exploded when it hit the Asahi pipe in Tsushima. Passing smokestacks with a projectile without breaking was bad for three reasons.

Firstly, the possibility of damage to boilers through chimneys by shell fragments was lost. Japanese land mines had this ability: for example, the very first hit in the chimney of the Tsarevich in the battle of Shantung led to the fact that boiler No. 13 was disabled by shell fragments.

Secondly, Russian shells, punching right through the pipe, did not provide a significant loss of thrust, excessive consumption of coal and a decrease in the speed of the affected ship. Sometimes, however, even a hit without an explosion was enough - a shell that pierced the Asama's pipe right through still caused a decrease in the cruiser's speed. However, we must take into account that in this case the projectile hit very well for us, at the base of the pipe, which, apparently, predetermined such a significant drop in thrust.

And thirdly, having pierced the pipe right through and without causing a rupture above the deck of the enemy ship, our shells, naturally, could not hit the crew members who were on the bridges and upper deck with shrapnel.

In general, the impact of our 12-inch shells on chimneys was noticeably weaker than the Japanese ones.

From the above, it is obvious that when hitting the spar, Japanese land mines also turned out to be more effective. Exploding at the moment of contact, they showered the decks and superstructures of Russian ships with many fragments, tearing the halyards on which combat signals were raised. It must be said that Russian shells could also perform well when they exploded in superstructures or directly above the deck of a ship, but this happened noticeably less frequently than Japanese landmines. Tube arr. 1894 could and should have worked upon contact with a light barrier, but, taking into account the time of its action for heavy projectiles, the explosion still had to occur outside the ship.

Obviously, the “reluctance” of the Russian shell to explode immediately at the moment of passing through the casing or immediately behind it reduced its fragmentation effect on the enemy. In this regard, an indicative example is the same hit by a 12-dm high-explosive projectile in the Shikishima in the Battle of Tsushima, when the explosion of a shell under the casemate led to the death and failure of the crew serving the 6-dm gun in it. The fragmentation effect is undoubtedly powerful, but it was achieved as a result of an unfortunate accident for the Japanese - it hit the lower part of the armor plate of the casemate and the projectile ricocheted downwards. If our shell hit the unarmored side under the casemate, then the explosion would follow closer to the center plane of the hull, from where fragments could no longer hit the casemate through the floor.

Conclusions


Considering the impact of explosion energy and fragments of domestic 12-inch high-explosive shells and Japanese “suitcases” on unarmored hull structures, one can come to rather unexpected conclusions. In a number of cases, Russian and Japanese heavy landmines caused quite comparable scales of destruction. But the peculiarities of Japanese land mines, combined with an undeniable advantage in starting fires, allowed them to inflict damage that significantly reduced the combat potential of warships. Japanese landmines caused flooding, reduced speed, hampered and disabled fire control, hit artillery pieces, even those protected by armor, etc.

In contrast, Russian high-explosive shells caused serious destruction in the unprotected compartments inside Japanese ships, often leaving giant holes in their unarmored decks. The problem was that with a comparable volume of destroyed structures, the destruction of these compartments had little effect on the combat effectiveness of Japanese battleships and armored cruisers. Of course, emergency parties suffered from such internal explosions, but the Japanese could tolerate it because our shells did not create much work for them (holes filled with water, fires).

In my opinion, the ability of our heavy high-explosive shells, when hit on an unarmored side, to travel a considerable distance and explode, going deeper into the hull of an enemy ship, in the conditions of the Russo-Japanese War should be considered not an advantage, but a disadvantage. Giving a burst when passing the side or immediately behind it, they could effectively hit enemy artillery (“Shikishima”!), contribute to the occurrence of extensive flooding, and if they hit the spar, they could shower the deck with fragments, knocking out officers, rangefinders and messengers; if they hit the pipes, they could disrupt the thrust of Japanese ships, while also damaging their boilers with shrapnel.

Instead, they, exploding in the depths of the hull, effectively destroyed the crew's cabins and other secondary, in general, rooms, causing extensive damage to the hull structures, but at the same time having very little effect on the combat effectiveness of the enemy ship.

In my opinion, it should be said that Japanese high-explosive shells, when hitting unarmored parts and masts, effectively reduced the combat potential of Russian ships, but, unfortunately, the same cannot be said about our shells. Without claiming to be the ultimate truth, I still think that here the 12-dm Russian high-explosive shells were undoubtedly inferior to the Japanese.

However, this ammunition of ours had a quality that their Japanese “counterparts” did not possess - they could penetrate armor. Did this advantage compensate for the weaknesses of the Russian high-explosive projectile described above?

To be continued ...
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  1. +6
    1 August 2024 04: 34
    I read it with pleasure, thanks Andrey! Good morning to the comrades, success and prosperity!
    Regards, Kote!
    1. +4
      1 August 2024 08: 18
      In the “Navy Museum” in St. Petersburg there is a stand with fragments of Japanese shells that were recovered from the bodies of Russian sailors. Their bizarre appearance is striking, which is far from the fragments that are found in abundance on the battlefields after WWII. These Japanese fragments have a “crystalline structure” and look like “stars”, “hedgehogs”, etc. Which indicates a high detonation speed and extremely brittle steel of the projectile body. I wonder what kind of wall material these shells had? In addition, melinite with additives, which the Japanese called "shimoza", during the explosion produced a large amount of poisonous, asphyxiating gases, which, penetrating through holes, various holes and sucked through the ventilation, caused poisoning of the ship's personnel and thereby its failure .
      1. +8
        1 August 2024 08: 36
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        I wonder what kind of wall material these shells had?

        Regular steel. The fragments are a consequence of the characteristics of shimosa and not steel.
        1. +2
          1 August 2024 10: 57
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Quote: Monster_Fat
          I wonder what kind of wall material these shells had?

          Regular steel. The fragments are a consequence of the characteristics of shimosa and not steel.

          No, not ordinary, but "drain steel".
      2. +1
        1 August 2024 10: 18
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        These Japanese fragments have a “crystalline structure” and look like “stars”, “hedgehogs”, etc. Which indicates a high detonation speed and extremely brittle steel of the projectile body.

        Maybe it's just overheated steel?
        1. +2
          1 August 2024 10: 59
          Quote: Hitriy Zhuk
          Quote: Monster_Fat
          These Japanese fragments have a “crystalline structure” and look like “stars”, “hedgehogs”, etc. Which indicates a high detonation speed and extremely brittle steel of the projectile body.

          Maybe it's just overheated steel?

          No, FS were made, for the most part, from solid steel.
          The overheated one will crack when fired due to its fragility.
      3. +2
        1 August 2024 14: 13
        And modern shell fragments have such edges. And the very concept of a fragment is an elastic thing. Sometimes a grain, sometimes half a shell. Horror.
      4. +3
        1 August 2024 19: 42
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        melinitis with additives, which the Japanese called "shimoza"

        Shimosa is pure picrinka. I saw the results of chemical analysis of samples obtained during the nuclear war from both land and sea shells, and from sea mines.
    2. +3
      1 August 2024 17: 19
      Thank you for your kind words, Vladislav!
  2. +3
    1 August 2024 06: 33
    Thank you very much for your work and detailed analysis. I just have a question: who was the author of the theory about just such shells in our fleet and why did he start the same thing? Surely there were preliminary firings before adoption, but the conclusions were most likely drawn incorrectly. Or the test methodology was untested. If there were these articles earlier, I probably missed them. Great article ➕️
    1. +5
      1 August 2024 08: 35
      Good morning!
      There are some thoughts about this here
      https://topwar.ru/235155-kak-ne-nado-delat-snarjady-ili-rossijskij-305-mm-fugas-obr-1894-g.html
      The only thing I want to specifically mention is:
      1. judging by the data of Alexey Rytik, our shells with smokeless powder could still explode on the water,
      2. sample tube 1894 is incorrectly called an instantaneous fuse.
      3. The 1TOE was armed with the same high-explosive shells as the 2TOE, that is, not with pyroxylin and a Brink tube, but with gunpowder and a tube model 1894, which I did not know at the time of writing this article
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      Surely there were preliminary firings before adoption

      Did not have. That is, there was probably some shooting, but they didn’t bother to test the destructive effect of the new shells, not finding 70 rubles for these tests.
      1. +2
        1 August 2024 09: 42
        hi That is, only preliminary calculations are obtained? And based on the imperfection of such a technique in the past, since they simply could not yet know all the necessary parameters, they accepted the projectile for service. Of course the result is natural. For some reason I was sure that at least they fired at the English armor, as at the most likely enemy.
        1. +6
          1 August 2024 09: 54
          Armor-piercing ones were tested quite actively, but it was armor penetration and, possibly, the operation of the fuse that was tested. But the destructive effect behind the armor is not. Here, too, you can understand what they were thinking - obviously, shells with pyroxylin and smokeless powder explode more powerfully than shells with black powder, so...
          1. +2
            1 August 2024 10: 05
            Thank you, I’ll look forward to the continuation, interesting topic. Even when I read “Port Arthur” and “Tsushima”, as a teenager I noticed how much destruction there was precisely from shells with shimosa and about the suffocating smell. Of course, this is fiction, but the impression from those books is enormous!
    2. 0
      1 August 2024 22: 40
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      Surely there were preliminary firings before adoption, but the conclusions were most likely drawn incorrectly. Or the test methodology was untested

      The shell testing methodology was very crude. After all, it was only recently that shells began to be equipped with explosives and fuses. I don’t know of complex naval tests for a target close to the real one before 1904. They tested the fuses: they fixed a sheet of metal and stretched several canvas sheets behind it in order to understand from the breaks in them where the shell exploded. No traces of explosives were found - excellent, the gap is complete. If you need to look at the fragments, then the shell was exploded in an armored recess, then the fragments were collected and studied. Before the war, high-explosive Tsushima shells were used en masse at least twice for target practice against coastal fortifications. I really liked how these landmines crushed the concrete fortifications on Tendra.
      1. 0
        1 August 2024 22: 53
        Quote: rytik32
        The shell testing methodology was very crude.

        It’s interesting that at the beginning they offered steel shells with a higher explosive content. But the companies that won the tender for the supply were unable to produce these, and began to simplify the projectile at the expense of power, among other things. "The tail wags the dog" (c)
        1. +1
          1 August 2024 23: 11
          Objectively, in the early to mid-90s there were no factories in Russia capable of producing thin-walled projectiles in commercial quantities.
          1. 0
            1 August 2024 23: 28
            Quote: rytik32
            Objectively, in the early to mid-90s there were no factories in Russia capable of producing thin-walled projectiles in commercial quantities.

            So it was necessary to build or modernize. Since they realized the need for high-explosive shells. Moreover, we are primarily talking about the main caliber, and this is not a lot of barrels. What's the point of arming a ship with an expensive cannon and equipping it with cast iron?
            1. +3
              1 August 2024 23: 34
              Quote: Saxahorse
              So it was necessary to build or modernize.

              In the early 00s, it was already possible to switch to new shells, but MTK was dozing.
              Since they realized the need for high-explosive shells

              There wasn’t even a second set of shells! What are you speaking about? The factories did not have time to place orders and delayed them for several years.
              1. 0
                1 August 2024 23: 39
                Quote: rytik32
                There wasn’t even a second set of shells! What are you speaking about? The factories did not have time to place orders and delayed them for several years.

                As far as I remember, they forgot about the 2nd set at first. smile
                To be fair, after the REV they realized that it is not enough to place an order; the production itself must be subsidized in order to receive what was ordered on time.
                1. +2
                  2 August 2024 13: 33
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  As far as I remember, they forgot about the 2nd set at first.

                  There was no money. Avelan requested loans for the second set of power supplies back in 1900 - but the financing amounted to 22 rubles. were not approved, limiting themselves until 600 to two loans totaling 000 rubles.
                  Testimony of the Assistant Head of the Structures Department of the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supply, Major General Ivanov.

                  Back in July 1900, the Head of the Naval Ministry informed the Minister of Finance in a special letter that the fleet did not have a second combat set of artillery supplies. - The Maritime Ministry could not carry out this measure due to the circumstances set forth in the above letter, a copy of which, No. 22887, I present to the Investigative Commission.
                  The petition for the allocation of loans for the formation of a second combat kit was considered at a special meeting on the issue of additional appropriations to the maximum budget of the Maritime Ministry in the period 1900 - 1904 - HIGHLY approved on August 14, 1900 by the journal of the special meeting it was confirmed that it was necessary to eliminate for the entire remaining period of validity of the marginal budget any further burden on the treasury by increasing the credits of the Maritime Department.
                  Then, upon consideration of the special journal of the general meeting of the State Council on the financial estimates of the Ministries and Main Directorates, and on the State list of income and expenses for 1903, It is HIGHLY commanded: to direct the most energetic efforts to curb the growth of expenses. - However, the persistent requests of the Naval Ministry for the allocation of additional loans for the procurement of a spare combat kit were partially satisfied - in view of military events: in 1900 - 1.300.000 rubles were given and in 1903 - 1.800.000 rubles.
                  In view of the opening of hostilities, at the beginning of 1904, a special loan in the amount of 10.700.000 rubles was opened to the Naval Ministry for the procurement of ammunition.


                  Source - as always, Tsushima forum:
                  https://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3677
                2. +2
                  2 August 2024 13: 33
                  Here is Avelan's request:
                  Letter from the Temporary Administrator of the Maritime Ministry, Vice Admiral Avelan, to the Minister of Finance S. Yu. Witte. 19th July 1900
                  № 22887.

                  Dear Sir, Sergei Yulievich,
                  Currently, the fleet does not have a second combat artillery supply kit. The Naval Ministry could not implement this measure due to lack of funds and due to the recent transition to new types of guns and smokeless powder.
                  It was intended that the formation of a second combat set of shells, cartridges, gunpowder and other items for all ships should be carried out with some gradualness. But given the alarming circumstances that have arisen, the slightest slowdown seems absolutely impossible. The cost of the second set of combat supplies is estimated at 22.600.000 rubles. This amount is divided into two parts: the first, 6 mil. rubles - for the ships of the Pacific squadron at this time and constitutes an urgent military need. For this amount, 1 million has already been allocated to the Maritime Ministry. rubles For further immediate orders for the procurement of supplies, it is necessary to allocate another 5 million to the Navy Ministry in the same manner. rubles — Then the remaining 16.000.000 rubles. can be paid in installments until January 1, 1905 for 4.150.000 rubles. annually.
                  Counting on Your Excellency's favorable assistance in meeting the urgent needs of the Maritime Ministry, I humbly ask you to accept the assurance of my complete respect and devotion.
                  1. 0
                    2 August 2024 21: 07
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Here is Avelan's request:

                    Thank you, I have seen this letter. But here it is worth paying attention to the date. July 1900. Meanwhile:
                    In February 1898, the tsarist government allocated 90 million rubles in an emergency budget for an urgent increase in the fleet. .. The distribution of loans was provided for 1905 inclusive, but 12 main battleships and armored cruisers were to be completed in 1902.

                    It is easy to see that emergency funding was requested back in 1898, not to mention the fact that some of the ships had already been ordered earlier under the 1895 program. And they forgot about BC. So we had to refer to the sudden increase in the number of new guns. Like when ordering guns in 1898, they didn’t know that they would need shells. wassat
                    1. 0
                      5 August 2024 10: 50
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      And they forgot about BC. So we had to refer to the sudden increase in the number of new guns. Like when ordering guns in 1898, they didn’t know that they would need shells.

                      Nope, don't forget. We just decided carry out gradually.
                      This meant the formation of a second combat set of shells, cartridges, gunpowder and other items for all ships to carry out with some gradualness. But under the alarming circumstances, the slightest slowdown seems absolutely impossible.
                      © Avelan
                      Our fleet likes to stretch out programs for 25-30 years. smile
                      And two years later, in 1900, the naval officers pecked at a roasted rooster.
                      1. 0
                        5 August 2024 22: 35
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Nope, don't forget. We just decided to do it somewhat gradually.

                        Maybe so. Perhaps this was a completely deliberate scam by the authorities for money. The idea is to reduce the amount immediately, but then where to go, you will still have to pay extra since you already have the guns.
  3. +3
    1 August 2024 06: 38
    Absolutely agree with the conclusions Yes good
    Success is made up of many components, therefore the greater impact of Japanese landmines in terms of causing damage to the ship is one of the advantages in this case... Alas, but this is so. Theoretically, the number of hits on our part could compensate for the quality, but they didn’t “wave” by 20 cable request
    Best regards hi
    Plus costs drinks
    1. +3
      1 August 2024 17: 20
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Success consists of many components, therefore the greater impact of Japanese land mines in terms of causing damage to the ship is one of the advantages in this case..

      This is undoubtedly true. And next week we'll see what happened with the armor defeat :) drinks
  4. +3
    1 August 2024 07: 37
    A very interesting series, thanks to the Author, I’m looking forward to the continuation.
    1. +3
      1 August 2024 17: 20
      And thank you, Sergey, for your comment!
  5. 0
    1 August 2024 10: 14
    Obviously, 39,2 kg of shimosa gave a greater breaking force, than 6 kg of smokeless powder, but how much?

    Dynamite was invented about half a century ago (relative to those events).
    What the hell is pyroxylin in shells?
    How is that?

    And yes, pyroxylin seems to be smokeless powder, and in the table there is smoky, smokeless, and “wet pyroxylin.” belay
    1. +4
      1 August 2024 10: 33
      How is that?

      Under no circumstances should dynamite be pressed or compacted; that is, it is absolutely unsuitable for loading projectiles. When fired, as you understand, the explosives in the projectile experience a monstrous overload.
      Pyroxylin and smokeless gunpowder are completely different substances in appearance and properties.
      1. +1
        1 August 2024 10: 51
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Under no circumstances should dynamite be pressed or compacted; that is, it is absolutely unsuitable for loading projectiles. When fired, as you understand, the explosives in the projectile experience a monstrous overload.

        I was also surprised how I just read it.
        In short, I mixed up TNT and dynamite (or rather, I thought they were the same thing).
        1. +6
          1 August 2024 15: 45
          Quote: Hitriy Zhuk
          In short, I mixed up TNT and dynamite

          Although trinitrotoluene was first produced in 1863, it was not until the late 1880s that it was first realized that it could be used as a projectile filling. And industrial production in 1901, in Germany (in general, no chance)
          In general, to use it as an explosive, it is not enough to know that some kind of crap can, in principle, explode. need at least two more technologies
          1) Production
          2) Loading ammunition
          We had neither one nor the other.
      2. +1
        1 August 2024 14: 22
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Under no circumstances should dynamite be pressed or compacted; that is, it is absolutely unsuitable for loading projectiles. When fired, as you understand, the explosives in the projectile experience a monstrous overload.

        The French developed a shell loaded with dynamite, it was quite expensive, but at that time melinite appeared. Well, the Navy "gave" this shell to the army, they joyfully ordered a trial batch, spent money, and tested it. After the tests, one French general, I don't remember his name, wrote with indignation that the Navy had slipped "a pig in a poke". The shell could only have a high-explosive effect on enemy infantry, since the shell fragments were so small that they could not cause serious injuries to the infantry.
        1. +3
          1 August 2024 17: 22
          Quote: 27091965i
          The French developed a projectile loaded with dynamite, it turned out to be quite expensive,

          I think it was some very special dynamite :))) However, as far as I know, dynamite is rather the name of a whole group of explosives, the composition of which can vary considerably.
          Thank you very much, I knew nothing about this case!
      3. +3
        1 August 2024 19: 39
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        When fired, as you understand, the explosives in the projectile experience a monstrous overload.

        You, Andrey, must remember the American experiments with monitors, in the 1870s, in my opinion. It was supposed to be installed there pneumatic (!!!) large-caliber guns just for firing dynamite shells.
    2. +2
      1 August 2024 10: 36
      The English chemist Frederick Augustus Abel, who in 1862 managed to obtain pyroxylin, has been researching pyroxylin since 1868.
      One of the varieties, pyrocollodion gunpowder, was discovered by the Russian chemist D.I. Mendeleev in 1890, who also proposed a safe method for its production. This led to the widespread use of pyroxylin in Russia.

      From the Internet, so everything matches.
  6. +5
    1 August 2024 10: 46
    Thank you, Andrew!
    As always, everything is laid out on the shelves. Interesting and educational.
    I would like to note on my own that the ability of a projectile to explode at the first obstacle is by no means its positive property. Especially if the fragments are small enough and quickly lose their destructive power.
    On the contrary, a semi-armor-piercing projectile, exploding inside the ship (but outside the citadel), creates a damaging cone of high-energy fragments that cause great damage, only for this it must have the appropriate explosive content.
    But the incendiary effect of a projectile on the superstructure is generally nonsense for a warship. There should be no flammable materials located openly on it, at least in quantities sufficient to organize a serious fire.
    By the way, based on the lessons of the Russo-Japanese War, special shells appeared, both with a bottom and a head fuse.
    1. +3
      1 August 2024 17: 23
      Good evening!
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      I would like to note on my own that the ability of a projectile to explode at the first obstacle is by no means its positive property.

      In general, yes, but in the conditions of the REV... However, more on this in the next article
  7. +2
    1 August 2024 12: 59
    Thanks, very interesting! I would gladly download the entire series on artillery and armor for a reasonable price, and if it were in FB2, I would also squeal with delight.
    Dear author, would you like to prepare a book or something?
    1. +4
      1 August 2024 14: 08
      Colleague, go to the Author’s profile, all published materials are available there.
      By the way, about the book. The author's portfolio of "Andrei from Chelyabinsk" contains a very interesting novel in the "alternative history" genre.
      1. +5
        1 August 2024 17: 25
        Thank you for your appreciation of my “Verb over the Baltic”. Very nice
        1. +3
          1 August 2024 17: 46
          I read "Arturpraetor" on Artyom's recommendation.
          Thank you, Andrew!
          1. +3
            1 August 2024 18: 21
            ABOUT! Anton, if you suddenly cross paths with him somewhere, please give him my greetings and wishes for every success!
            1. +2
              1 August 2024 18: 30
              I will, of course. But I'm afraid that the probability is very small, Artyom is on the other side of the front line...
              1. +2
                1 August 2024 19: 16
                Well, he’s not fighting. As far as I know him, he wouldn't go
                1. +2
                  1 August 2024 19: 27
                  As far as I know him, he wouldn't go
                  As far as I know (most likely, much less) - too. But they don’t ask about desires. Well, judging by domestic information technology...
                2. +2
                  1 August 2024 20: 01
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  As far as I know him, he wouldn't go

                  I think so too, but remembering some of our mutual colleagues, I can’t vouch for it. request
                  1. +3
                    1 August 2024 21: 00
                    Oh, dear Ivan, this is very sad
                    1. +3
                      1 August 2024 21: 23
                      Sorry to interrupt your conversation. Indeed, "Arturpraetor" has not been seen for a long time (deeply unfortunately) on Althistori. What is his fate? I would like to hope for a better outcome. It is very sad that events are separating people so close in interests (not mercantile) on opposite sides of the LBL hi
        2. +3
          1 August 2024 19: 49
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Thank you for your appreciation of my “Verb over the Baltic”. Very nice

          There is a reason. You have an excellent style (at least in my opinion) and you have great potential as a writer (there will be an audience). I read your other alternatives, but I can’t give any of them a “-” hi
          1. +5
            1 August 2024 21: 01
            Thank you! Then, perhaps, you will be interested to know that I am now working on a new book - and also on althistorical topics (RYAV). The stage is still very early, but it is being written much faster than the previous one.
            1. +1
              1 August 2024 21: 12
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Then, perhaps, you will be interested to know that I am now working on a new book - and also on althistorical topics (RYAV).

              I'll be in the forefront of readers) hi
    2. +4
      1 August 2024 17: 24
      Alexey, hello!
      Quote: Grossvater
      I would be happy to download the entire series on artillery and armor for a reasonable price

      Yes, I have such an intention - when the cycle is completed, I will finalize it in the light of the facts revealed during the discussions and publish it as a separate... yes, you could probably say a book
      1. +3
        1 August 2024 17: 48
        Andrey, good evening!
        If anything, I'm in line... hi
        1. +3
          1 August 2024 19: 18
          Yes, no problem :))) I’ll publish it on samizdat, and, of course, I’ll just send it to you by mail hi
  8. +2
    1 August 2024 13: 18
    In general, it’s interesting how the Germans, a quarter of a century later, developed high-explosive shells for pocket battleships.
    In fact, they had high-explosive shells with both a bottom fuse and a head fuse. The first contained 16,94 kg of pressed TNT, the second - 23,3 kg. At the same time, the mass of the shells was the same and equal to 300 kg.
    German shells can be considered optimal for high initial velocities; accordingly, for a shell weighing 332 kg, the mass of explosives should be 18,75 kg, and for a shell weighing 386 kg - 30 kg. So it turns out that the Russians under-delivered the explosives, and the British over-laid them.
    1. +1
      1 August 2024 18: 13
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      pressed TNT

      As a comment: TNT was phlegmatized (pre-war batches with mountain wax, military batches with paraffin). The content of the phlegmatizer in the checkers from which the charge of the “high-explosive” projectile was collected was 1%, in the “semi-armor-piercing” one it ranged from 1 to 20%.

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      German shells can be considered optimal for high initial velocities

      Our artillerymen, who were in Germany in 39-40, did not think so and rolled out what they considered to be a rather long list of “jambs” of German shells: insufficient armor-piercing qualities, low weight for their caliber, low explosiveness.
      1. +1
        1 August 2024 18: 15
        Everything is covered with an accuracy of 1/400 in range at distances up to 150 cab. For comparison, we have 1/150 - 1/180.
        1. 0
          1 August 2024 18: 23
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Everything is covered with an accuracy of 1/400 in range at distances up to 150 cab. For comparison, we have 1/150 - 1/180.

          By the way, our artillerymen also noted the low accuracy, estimating it as 1/200...
          1. 0
            1 August 2024 18: 34
            Testing at the proving ground in the presence of our delegation SKC-34 38-cm/L52 in 1939 for the TKr pr.69I.
            And with armor-piercing, the values ​​​​were also obtained above the calculated ones.
            1. 0
              1 August 2024 18: 49
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Tests at the test site in the presence of our delegation SKC-34 38-cm/L52 in 1939. for TKr pr.69I.

              I have a suspicion that the figure 1/200, with a high degree of probability, is precisely from this report... :)
              1. 0
                1 August 2024 20: 16
                In my materials on the Kronstadt TKr there is 1/400 for 150 cab. I saw the same data in the brochure “Main Caliber of Battleships” and in Titushkin’s monograph on Italian battleships.
                But this is 380 mm!
                1. +1
                  1 August 2024 20: 24
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  In my materials on TKR "Kronstadt" 1/400 for 150 cab

                  Data from the “Report of the naval artillery group of the Soviet Economic Commission in Germany”...
            2. +1
              1 August 2024 19: 07
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              And with armor-piercing, the values ​​​​were also obtained above the calculated ones.

              As our artillerymen assumed, this was due to the test methodology: the slab was hung vertically freely on two supports, there was not even a frame behind it.
              By the way, according to German data (firing tables), ours calculated the accuracy of a 280-mm gun at a distance of 36600 m - 1/167.
  9. +4
    1 August 2024 13: 37
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, the article is very interesting, thank you. There is a lot that can be discussed, but to be honest, I haven’t yet been able to decide which side to “approach” it. Everything is interesting.
  10. +1
    1 August 2024 14: 27
    In general, it is interesting that the success of the Japanese shells did not impress anyone except the Russians. And the Japanese themselves too.
    In Müllenheim-Rechberg's book about the Bismarck, he wrote that at the end of the battle, people, trying to escape on a ship that had lost its combat capability, gathered behind the superstructures on the side that was not under fire. English shells pierced right through the superstructure and exploded in the air behind it. And the whole side was littered with people killed and wounded by these fragments.
    A typical picture from a Russian AP shell.
    Beatty stood openly on the Lion's bridge, as did Togo. On Russian ships this meant death.
    Apparently, after weighing the pros and cons, they decided that the BB action was more effective.
    It would be interesting to evaluate the hits of new Russian shells. But there were few of them. They slapped “Hebena” a couple of times. They hit it normally. And the damage is appropriate. But you can’t piece together statistics from a couple of hits.
    The hits of the Britons on the French during the Catapult are also the same. The shell exploded deep inside the ship. Or it penetrated unarmored structures and exploded “somewhere out there”
    1. +3
      1 August 2024 17: 28
      Quote: MCmaximus
      In general, it is interesting that the success of the Japanese shells did not impress anyone except the Russians. And the Japanese themselves too.

      A very valid question, which I return to in the next article.
    2. +1
      1 August 2024 19: 37
      Quote: MCmaximus
      In general, it is interesting that the success of Japanese shells did not impress anyone except the Russians

      The British were impressed. They even made their own “ideal” high explosive, devoid of all the shortcomings characteristic of Japanese high-explosive shells from the time of the RYAV.
      1. +1
        1 August 2024 22: 16
        Quote: rytik32
        The British were impressed. They even made their own “ideal” high explosive, devoid of all the shortcomings characteristic of Japanese high-explosive shells from the time of the RYAV.

        As far as I remember, they made a semi-armor-piercing one for all occasions. Somehow I can’t bring myself to call it a landmine. request
        1. +1
          1 August 2024 22: 19
          I'm talking about high explosive with liddite and head fuse
          1. +1
            1 August 2024 22: 47
            Quote: rytik32
            I'm talking about high explosive with liddite and head fuse

            This one?
            HE Mark IIa - high-explosive projectile, 1227 mm long, weighing 386 kg, filled with 48,3 kg of lyddite;

            If so, then the British abandoned it. smile
            After the Battle of Jutland, the number of high-explosive shells was reduced to 10, and the rest of the ammunition was divided equally between armor-piercing and semi-armor-piercing.
            1. +2
              1 August 2024 23: 18
              Quote: Saxahorse
              This one?

              Yes, he is.

              Quote: Saxahorse
              If so, then the British abandoned it.

              And before WWI they drooled over him. EMNIP, during tests on the Edinburgh, it exploded in the chimney and carried out the boilers from below.
              1. +1
                1 August 2024 23: 34
                Quote: rytik32
                And before WWI they drooled over him.

                Well, if in this sense, then yes. Ours also rushed around after the REV with their super-heavy shells, after WWI they realized that it was much more difficult to hit the target with these. In the early 30s, more adequate designs appeared.

                But in terms of discussions about the benefits of land mines, the example of this HE Mark IIa is quite typical. We tested it in battle and were convinced that it was not particularly needed.
                1. +1
                  2 August 2024 03: 49
                  Another thing is interesting. Okay, capital spikes, but they (and not only all of them) hit BBs in WWII and on cruisers. Although there is no belt there.
                  1. +2
                    2 August 2024 17: 38
                    Quote: MCmaximus
                    Okay, capital spikes, but they (and not only all of them) hit BBs in WWII and on cruisers. Although there is no belt there.

                    There were two things at play here:
                    - lack of suitable ammunition shells
                    - laziness of the fire control officer.
  11. +1
    1 August 2024 16: 02
    Here the Japanese shell had a clear advantage. Obviously, 39,2 kg of shimosa gave a burst of greater force than 6 kg of smokeless powder, but by how much? It will be possible to answer this question only after a detailed comparison of the results of Russian and Japanese shells hitting unarmored parts of ships, which I have not yet begun


    For comparison, we can consider the experiments of the French;
    " If a high-explosive projectile loaded with 25 kg of menilite hits an unarmored side, an explosion will occur at a distance of 1,5-2 meters from the side. A deck 25-30 mm thick receives a hole with an area of ​​1-1,5 meters, while up to 200 kilograms of debris and splinters fall into the lower rooms. The speed of movement of debris and fragments reaches 60-70 meters per second. Moreover, if a fire occurs, it is impossible to immediately begin extinguishing it, due to the release of toxic substances during the explosion. Extinguishing a fire in premises is possible 20-30 minutes after the explosion."
    But it must be taken into account that the French fuses were different from the Japanese.
  12. +4
    1 August 2024 19: 34
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    I'm glad to see a new article on the topic of the Russo-Japanese War.
    Now to the specifics.
    Obviously, 39,2 kg of shimosa gave a greater burst force than 6 kg of smokeless powder

    This is if there was a complete break. But yellow or brown smoke hints that it was often not full. And the results of hits from English shells with the same amount of picric acid look much more serious.
    For example, let’s take a Japanese 12-dm hit on Pobeda, where the gap occurred behind the upper belt, i.e. in approximately the same conditions in which Russian shells exploded. Yes, it was an armor-piercing shell, but it still had much more explosive than the Russian shell. As a result, the damage was approximately at the level of not the most outstanding explosions of Russian 12-inch shells. How so? Why didn’t the many times larger amount of explosives in the Japanese projectile play a role? Why didn't the explosion break the deck?

    a large-caliber shell that hit the hinged cover above the right 10-dm cannon

    Almost in the same direction as our Fuji projectile.

    The consequence of this hit was that Sevastopol, taking into account previously received damage to pipes and a drop in thrust, was forced to reduce speed to 8 knots and could no longer maintain its place in the ranks

    The "Sevastopol" VZ contains a different version. He stuck with "Tsarevich" and "Pallada", and even asked permission to go to Vladivostok. The Tsarevich was poorly controlled and lost. And "Pallada" reported that the rest went to Port Arthur. At 8-30 pm on the 28th there is a record that half of the boilers were turned off due to the rear pipe being broken by two 2-inch shells.

    fragmentation effect of Russian and Japanese shells

    When I analyzed the hits on the Mikasa, I noticed that two cases of Russian shells exploding on the armor without penetrating had the same effect as Japanese shells exploding on the side plating: fragments flew along the side and caused damage to the artillery.

    In terms of incendiary action

    Russian 12-dm also often caused fires.

    However, the 64 shells that hit it (the average of credible estimates) caused up to 30 fires

    Andrey, you took the number of fires from one known source, but did not take the number of hits from it.

    This “speed of action” of Japanese shells should be explained not by the design of the fuse, but by the properties of the shimosa, which is capable of detonating even upon impact with a minor obstacle

    This is a fresh idea that no one has ever directly stated before. I completely agree with her.

    which was corrected only when the commander ordered the compartments of the double-bottom space to be flooded

    In the Peresvet VZh, counter-flooding of compartments was recorded at 6-20 pm on the 28th

    The decisive role in the death of the squadron battleship Oslyabya, apparently, was played by a single hit of a 12-inch Japanese shell in the bow end of the battleship

    This hole was repaired, although the water that got through it played a role.
    I hope that this year I will publish my works on the Oslyab with a detailed analysis of the developments on board the battleship.

    The problem was that with a comparable volume of destroyed structures, the destruction of these compartments had little effect on the combat effectiveness of Japanese battleships and armored cruisers

    Andrey, you write correctly that the effectiveness of the projectile greatly depended on the location of impact. But I believe that we should not downplay the effect of our shells when they hit near an overhead line. For example, "Sikishima" received large floods from just one 6-inch projectile. What would happen if she received the same amount as "Sisoy": one 12-dm, one 8-dm and four 6-dm in the bow, in the living deck?

    The ability of our heavy high-explosive shells, when hit on an unarmored side, to travel a considerable distance and explode, going deeper into the hull of an enemy ship, in the conditions of the Russo-Japanese War should be considered not an advantage, but a disadvantage

    Further development of the projectiles showed that bursting inside the ship was most effective.
    1. +1
      1 August 2024 20: 13
      Quote: rytik32
      For example, let’s take a Japanese 12-dm hit on Pobeda, where the gap occurred behind the upper belt, i.e. in approximately the same conditions in which Russian shells exploded. Yes, it was an armor-piercing shell, but it still had much more explosive than the Russian shell. As a result, the damage was approximately at the level of not the most outstanding explosions of Russian 12-inch shells. How so? Why didn’t the many times larger amount of explosives in the Japanese projectile play a role? Why didn't the explosion break the deck?

      Good evening.
      Dear Alexey, apparently you need to look at the design of the ship, the height of the explosion, and the thickness of the deck.
      1. +1
        1 August 2024 22: 15
        Dear Igor, good evening!
        The specification specifies that the thickness of the battery deck deck is 1/2 inch. The living deck is reserved. The hole in the diagram is indicated on the living deck just above its middle.
        1. 0
          2 August 2024 10: 36
          Quote: rytik32
          The specification specifies that the thickness of the battery deck deck is 1/2 inch. The living deck is reserved. The hole in the diagram is indicated on the living deck just above its middle.

          The shell apparently exploded as it exited the armor plate; three frames were broken and two were bent. I don't have a detailed diagram so it's hard to judge.
          1. +1
            2 August 2024 12: 06
            The ship's commander writes:
            This shell exploded in the enclosure of the living deck for two electric winches above the cartridge magazine, which were destroyed.

            I'll help with the diagram as much as I can.
            1. 0
              2 August 2024 12: 09
              Quote: rytik32
              I'll help with the diagram as much as I can.

              I would be grateful, then it will be possible to draw tentative conclusions based on the design.
    2. +1
      1 August 2024 20: 57
      Good evening, Alex!
      Quote: rytik32
      This is if there was a complete break.

      Yes, and if it’s incomplete, too. In theory, even a third of the explosives of a Japanese projectile should give a better high-explosive effect
      Quote: rytik32
      For example, let’s take a Japanese 12-dm hit at “Victory”, where the gap occurred behind the upper belt, i.e. in approximately the same conditions in which Russian shells exploded. Yes, it was an armor-piercing shell, but it still had much more explosive than the Russian shell. As a result, the damage was approximately at the level of not the most outstanding explosions of Russian 12-inch shells.

      Who knows? For a long time I believed that the Japanese BBs were loaded with gunpowder, and black rather than smokeless, this explained a lot. Actually, in the official history these shells were also distinguished "the armor, even the thinnest, was not penetrated or damaged not only by shells equipped with lyddite, but also by armor-piercing ones." Something dangles in my memory, as if some Japanese unexploded shell in Arthur was precisely gunpowder, but I don’t remember where it comes from, maybe I’m wrong, or maybe the source is not serious. You claim that there was shimoza everywhere. By the way, how much of it was in the BB shell?
      Well, as for the situation regarding Victory - anything could have happened: partial destruction of the projectile when passing through the armor, incomplete detonation, or some other unfortunate combination of circumstances for the Japanese.
      Quote: rytik32
      How so? Why didn’t the many times larger amount of explosives in the Japanese projectile play a role?

      If there were many times more explosives than in our high-explosive one, then most likely the body was quite thin and simply broke when overcoming the armor, which is why the explosion was greatly weakened. But this is true, guesswork, of course.
      Quote: rytik32
      Almost in the same direction as our Fuji projectile.

      Yes, not quite there, or even not there at all :) In addition, our projectile had no chance against the frontal armor of the Peresvet tower. So the location doesn’t play a role here; according to the Fuji scenario, it couldn’t have worked out here.
      Quote: rytik32
      The "Sevastopol" VZ contains a different version. He stuck with "Tsarevich" and "Pallada", and even asked permission to go to Vladivostok.

      So the Tsarevich, after turning to Arthur, found himself behind Sevastopol, then he overtook it, what kind of “holding on” was there?))))
      Quote: rytik32
      When I analyzed the hits on the Mikasa, I noticed that two cases of Russian shells exploding on the armor without penetrating had the same effect as Japanese shells exploding on the side plating: fragments flew along the side and caused damage to the artillery.

      I completely agree, since the rupture in the armor, the force of the fragments ricocheted to the sides. But the problem is this. that with us this could only happen if it hit the armor, and with the Japanese - and outside of it, into an unarmored side
      Quote: rytik32
      Andrey, you took the number of fires from one known source, but did not take the number of hits from it.

      But for slander, Alexey, you will be severely punished! :)))) All from one source, from Danilov.
      Quote: rytik32
      This is a fresh idea that no one has ever directly stated before. I completely agree with her.

      I am very glad that we have reached a consensus here
      Quote: rytik32
      I hope that this year I will publish my works on the Oslyab with a detailed analysis of the developments on board the battleship.

      This will be a damn interesting read!
      Quote: rytik32
      For example, "Sikishima" received large floods from just one 6-inch projectile. What would happen if she received the same amount as "Sisoy": one 12-dm, one 8-dm and four 6-dm in the bow, in the living deck?

      Nothing. That is, exactly the same. Simply put, the Japanese battleships had an armored deck at the ends (well, I remember that there was no armor there, but that’s what it was called) was very much below the waterline, so water, even from a small hole, had room to roam. BUT such a deck, in addition to a minus, also gave a plus - it was almost impossible to penetrate it with a shell
      Quote: rytik32
      Further development of the projectiles showed that bursting inside the ship was most effective.

      I propose to return to this issue next week, when the final article of this series will be published. Then I’ll go back to armor breaking and the range of a decisive battle on the BB hi
      1. +2
        1 August 2024 22: 30
        By the way, how much was there in the AP shell?

        There were two types of armor-piercing ones.
        No. 1 19,3 kg is a modern projectile, reminiscent of our landmine, but with slightly thinner walls.
        No. 2 12 kg - this is a conversion from old gunpowder shells, the bottom part was bored out for a screw-in bottom. Used very rarely. Packingham wrote that there were no such people at Fuji.
        All from one source, from Danilov.

        You got out of it very skillfully. ))) There’s not even anything to grab onto
        BUT such a deck, in addition to a minus, also gave a plus - it was almost impossible to penetrate it with a shell

        It is not necessary to punch.
        On the Shikishima, water passed below deck through the ventilation.
        It also worked on Asama, but I don’t know how, I didn’t translate it.
        I suggest we return to this issue next week.

        I'll be looking forward to it.
        1. +1
          2 August 2024 11: 14
          Quote: rytik32
          You got out of it very skillfully. )))

          Alexey, I looked for Kostenko’s report to make a comparison between the Japanese data, which was translated by naval_manual, the Packinham report, which you translated, and our reports. But Kostenko’s report is apparently not digitized, at least I couldn’t find it.
          Therefore, I proceed from the fact that Danilov’s analysis is qualitative. I agree, the source is not the primary one. I agree, he most likely took the 30 fires from Kostenko.
          Quote: rytik32
          It is not necessary to punch.
          On the Shikishima, water passed below deck through the ventilation.
          It also worked on Asama, but I don’t know how, I didn’t translate it.

          But this is very interesting. In any case, they somehow dealt with this on Sikishima, unlike Oslyabi.
  13. +2
    1 August 2024 20: 53
    Andrey, excellent series of articles. Full respect for the volume of work and the many facts provided. I look forward to the continuation.
    1. +2
      1 August 2024 21: 03
      And you, Dmitry, thank you for your kind words!
  14. 0
    1 August 2024 22: 25
    In the battle of Shantung, “Poltava” received serious damage: two 12-inch Japanese shells formed a solid hole measuring 6,2x2 m in its stern. “Poltava” received a trim to the stern, its speed decreased, and it fell behind the main forces of the squadron, which almost turned out to be fatal for him,

    Poltava actually got a hole, but above the armor belt. Moreover, he was initially the last and lagged behind due to problems in the car, which even Essen was surprised at, it was believed that Sevastopol was the slowest.

    "Sisoy the Great" and "Admiral Ushakov" suffered serious flooding, which caused a significant decrease in speed, as a result of which they fell behind the main squadron at night. Of course, this lag did not in any way affect the results of the Tsushima battle, but this does not change the fact that hits from high-explosive shells knocked out 2 of our warships from the line.

    But this example does not describe the merits of Japanese land mines, but the lack of intelligence of Admiral Rozhdestvensky, who overloaded his ships before the battle. Below is Suliga’s comment for example.
    1. +1
      2 August 2024 11: 07
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Poltava actually got a hole, but above the armor belt.

      Of course, you don’t know that such holes can also be filled with water. Of course, you haven’t read Lutonin
      Following the first shell, the second one hit the next cabin, tearing off the lining, the hole was from the upper beam over 2,5 cabins, almost 21 feet long and taller than a person’s height, the proximity of such a hole to the waterline worries me

      Well, about the overload...
      Quote: Saxahorse
      reloaded his ships before the battle.

      The fact that the 1TOE ships also had structural overload and a coal reserve no less than on the 2TOE Suliga obviously did not know at the time of writing. But you should know.
      1. -1
        2 August 2024 20: 32
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Of course, you don’t know that such holes can also be filled with water. Of course, you haven’t read Lutonin

        Holes above the waterline can be filled a) with strong waves b) with fountains from nearby ruptures. This is unpleasant, but cannot be compared with the holes below the waterline that Oslyabya received thanks to Rozhdestvensky and overload. This is where the water flows in a continuous stream...

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The fact that the 1TOE ships also had structural overload and a coal reserve no less than on the 2TOE Suliga obviously did not know at the time of writing. But you should know.

        As usual with your comments, everything is wrong, even the opposite. Structural overload, of course, has not gone away, but the ships were specially UNLOADED before leaving. And Suliga knew and wrote about this. Excess flammable materials, unnecessary spare parts and consumables were removed; coal was ordered to be taken strictly to Vladivostok. Many officers mentioned this in letters and memoirs. In particular, from Peresvet, which received the most hits in this battle, but unlike Oslyabi, having almost the same holes in the nose, Peresvet managed to return to base.
        1. +1
          2 August 2024 21: 46
          What I have always liked about you is your irrepressible and lively imagination :)))
          1. 0
            3 August 2024 00: 34
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            What I have always liked about you is your irrepressible and lively imagination :)))

            Well, how can I compare to you! laughing
            From P-A to Vladivostok Peresvet needs 420 tons of coal. So to fill all his huge coal pits to the top and also pour it into the corridors, you need to hit your head hard. Vitgeft is not a genius, but he was not that bruised. So your phrase "and the coal reserve is no less than 2TOE" - can't be explained otherwise than by an acute attack of imagination. wassat
            1. +1
              3 August 2024 01: 02
              Of course, the fact that there was more coal at Peresvet and Pobeda than at Oslyab.... You know, but you continue to indulge in unbridled fantasies :))) I can’t even be angry with you for this anymore :)))))
              1. -1
                3 August 2024 20: 06
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Of course, the fact that there was more coal at Peresvet and Pobeda than at Oslyab...

                I've been tired of your constant lies for a long time. That's why I try not to comment on your articles. Let your fans lick you, they won't get bored anytime soon. bully
  15. +1
    2 August 2024 03: 56
    In general, everything looks simple. There were very real considerations. There were normal specialists. But the teachings were not laid down and the experiments were carried out, to put it mildly, incompletely. Money was tight. Probably the Parisian lionesses ate it.
    Otherwise, it would not have cost anything to identify the competence of the shells, the shortcomings of the artillery, and everything else. Nevertheless, the post-war practice of the Black Sea Fleet showed that nothing incredible happened. And it was possible to fight with the existing equipment.
    However, from my own experience in the ranks of the SA, I can say that this is our common misfortune. Laziness of mind and everything else.
  16. +1
    2 August 2024 13: 22
    For reasons unknown to me, the 12-dm high-explosive shells of the 2nd Pacific Squadron were equipped with smokeless gunpowder instead of pyroxylin (most likely, the 1TOE shells were the same), which probably entailed the replacement of their double Brink shock tubes with tubes mod. 1894

    Apparently, the industry is simply could not, or rather, I didn’t make it on time.
    Attitude of the Naval Technical Committee to the Chairman of the Investigative Commission in the case of the Tsushima Battle.
    February 1, 1907 No. 234. On No. 34.

    High-explosive shells 6 in., 8 in. and 10 dm. calibers were equipped with pyroxylin, having double shock pyroxylin tubes, and 12 dm. high-explosive shells, due to the unavailability of pyroxylin charges, were equipped with smokeless gunpowder with ordinary shock tubes of the 1894 model.

    Report to the Manager of the Maritime Ministry of the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supply for the Structures Department.
    February 20, 1904 No. 6851.

    A corresponding number of different types of projectiles will require a very large number of different tubes, brass cases, pyroxylin charges, etc.
    The Main Directorate requests Your Excellency's permission to now dispose of their order for the expected military loan.
    For the urgent production of patterned pyroxylin charges, the resources available at our pyroxylin plant are not enough. It is urgent to purchase and install two hydraulic presses, which will require up to 35000 rubles. The Main Directorate asks Your Excellency to allow this increase in the means of the pyroxylin plant.
    1. +2
      4 August 2024 13: 01
      Good day, Alexey!
      Quote: Alexey RA
      due to unavailability of pyroxylin charges

      So the question is where this unpreparedness came from. Simply put, production capacity was not overloaded
      Quote: Alexey RA
      For the urgent production of patterned pyroxylin charges, the resources available at our pyroxylin plant are not enough.

      That's the point, it's for urgent production, but if they had been making charges little by little since 1900 or earlier, they could have done everything. The issue is complex and hasn't been worked out yet.
      1. 0
        5 August 2024 18: 46
        ...and if they had been making charges slowly since 1900 or earlier, they could have done everything. It's a difficult question...

        Hmm, I think in the same text it is noted why))
        ".. The Main Directorate requests permission from Your Excellency now now dispose of their order for expected war loan."
        How they usually saved money “on seeds” (including tests), besides, previously “no one expected” a war... After all, even after it began, money was not released to speed up work (on Borodino).
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        3. 0
          22 August 2024 01: 05
          Damage to Japanese cruiser Iwate from Rurik...
          https://disk.yandex.ru/i/ZE1ze_PeK1tivA