The reasons why the vast majority of the world's armies abandoned the use of drum magazines in machine guns and machine guns

Most of the 6 million units of the Shpagin submachine gun (PPSh) produced during the Great Patriotic War were equipped with drum-type magazines for 71 rounds. Meanwhile, by the middle of the war, this approach was abandoned in favor of carob magazines with 30 rounds.

At the same time, in the 50s of the last century, they tried to adapt “tambourines” (as drum stores were called) to the new family weapons based on AK.

Then Soviet designers presented three options at once - for 40, 50 and 100 rounds. At the same time, the only type of weapon where drum-type stores took root during Soviet times was the PKK.

In turn, in the modern army “tambourines” have practically disappeared, and this is not accidental. Their displacement is due to several key factors that make other types of stores more preferable.

The first thing you should pay attention to is reliability. Drum magazines have a more complex design than conventional box magazines, which increases the risk of them breaking or jamming in combat conditions.

In addition, “tambourines” are noticeably heavier than horns. Their greater weight affects the soldier's overall mobility. Considering that every gram of equipment can make a difference in effectiveness on the battlefield, lightweight box magazines are becoming the preferred choice.
Another important aspect is ergonomics. Drum magazines are often larger and more awkward to use, making it difficult to reload quickly. In addition, they have become not the most convenient option for carrying in pouches.

Finally, do not forget about the economic component. Drum magazines are more expensive to produce due to their complex design. As armies strive to optimize costs, the more cost-effective box magazines become the obvious choice.

Together, these factors have caused drum magazines to almost completely disappear from the modern military. More reliable, lighter, ergonomic and cost effective, box magazines have become standard in most militaries around the world.

Comments

[Konnick]

Meanwhile, by the middle of the war, this approach was abandoned in favor of 30-round carob magazines

Is this the author's hypothesis? This is a photo with scouts in defeated Berlin, they could choose what to fight with

[MCmaximus]

They just refused. But, of course, no one threw away what they had done earlier. That's why there are so many photos. And there are still such PPSh somewhere.
What about the PPSh? You need to see once how the disk magazine was equipped. And imagine how to do it in a trench under fire. Even just wearing tambourines is inconvenient compared to horns. The weight of the tambourine is equal to the weight of the carried cartridges. 1 to 1. The most unfavorable ratio.

[paul3390]

Here the question is specific... Let's say - if I were given the task of taking that building, I would probably take a couple of tambourines... They are heavy - so you have to carry them for a couple of hours, but it will last for the whole time. And if you’re just in a trench or somewhere else, of course there’s a horn, there’s no need to carry around with a stupid tambourine... IMHO, of course..

[MCmaximus]

This doesn't happen in the army. If you want, you take it; if you need it, you give it. Whoever was there, it’s simply funny to hear this.

[paul3390]

In a peacetime army - of course it doesn’t happen... But in war - what people don’t use... Look at the current one - the soldiers at times look like the troops of Father Makhno. And no one says a word - because they know better what is more convenient to wear and what to fight with...

[MCmaximus]

In war everything is much worse. Today here, tomorrow there. Carrying something in reserve... Well, try it. Any soldier would envy the horse. Because you have to carry more.

[Konnick]

What about the PPSh? You need to see once how the disk magazine was equipped.

70 rounds of ammunition were enough for one battle. In military photos, mostly PPSh with a carob magazine for artillerymen and sappers, it is more convenient to carry on the back. The infantry preferred the disc.

[MCmaximus]

Nobody preferred anything. In the army, they used what they gave. Then, the soldier could change something else. Taking into account the not very good interchangeability, this is another task. But something could have been preferred to war. If there was an opportunity))). But the replacement of tambourines with horns happened precisely because of the shortcomings of disc magazines. This whole story is known and described.

[Konnick]

due to the shortcomings of disk magazines. This whole story is known and described

And solved by Shpagin in 42

[Khibiny Plastun]

Not to mention the fact that it is impossible to equip a tambourine in mittens, while a horn in a three-fingered mitten is easy (AK 74m thirty). Drum lovers should be allowed to equip it with their bare hands in the cold, there is no other way, 71-75 -90 rounds, in the cold and with a breeze, an unforgettable pleasure.

[would]

And then you should read the NSD on the PPSh and see the instruction to use only an individual drum magazine; the numbers on the PPSh and the drum must match. This is because they were individually adjusted to a specific PPSh.

[kaa]

It was like that with the first episodes. Then the interchangeability problem was solved.

[would]

A well-known statement that does not find any documentary evidence. Moreover! And in the post-war manuals on PPSh, the prescription remained.

And so this statement, in one variation or another, wanders around the Internet. In one version the problem was solved altogether, in the second it was solved only at one specific plant, and so on.

[kaa]

If this were so, then the problem would remain with the fenced PPSh purchased by dozens of enthusiasts in post-Soviet times. However, there is nothing about such problems. On the contrary, for the sake of experiment we tried to use magazines from/to PPD - they worked.

[would]

But there is an NSD from 1955 where everything is clearly written.

And yes, there are similar problems at fenced-in PCAs and warehouses. They were quite recorded, including on camera.



You can wind at 5:36

[kaa]

Well, excuse me, when they did the same with the AK, problems with the platoon began before the tenth magazine, and they inserted them into the hot machine gun, also with tapping.
In the NSD there is only a note that the included disks fit without play or tight fixation; in the section describing the delays there is no such reason as a “non-native” magazine (which would 100% be indicated if there was an incompatibility problem). To rest the cartridge, there is a deformation of the cover, which most likely happened with the third drum.
I think this is still a myth.

[would]

Not a single AK they tested had problems with the magazine. "Problems with cocking" were nothing more than a tight bolt carrier.

The NSD only contains a note that the included discs are fitted without play or tight fixation,

No. The exact paragraph from the 1955 NSD reads like this - The magazines are precisely adjusted to the machines. Therefore, it is necessary to compare the number on the lid and box of the magazine with the machine number.

[kaa]

Exact paragraph:
Notes 1. The magazines are precisely fitted etc,
point 2 - about caution with the spring in the magazine. All this is in the chapter on store assembly. At the same time, in Chapter 4 about the reasons for delays during shooting there is not a word like “check the magazine numbers, it doesn’t work from another set.” Internet users drew too far conclusions from this paragraph.
Well, think logically, 6 million PPs have been released and they work clearly with their numbered drums, isn’t the logistics too precise? Why, after 1942, with the release of the box magazine, were they not withdrawn with such a deficiency? Yes, the site “I remember” would be full of mentions of such a problem, but no, “I knocked so that I stood on the latch and fired.”

[would]

Internet users drew too far conclusions from this paragraph.

And these conclusions, or rather facts, have been mentioned more than once, including by historians, as well as by modern owners. The fact that you don’t know about them (as well as about NSD) does not mean that they don’t exist.

Well, think logically, 6 million PPs have been issued and they work clearly with their numbered reels,

Let's think logically

1. 6 million is TOTAL. All modifications.
2. The PPSh with a drum was produced for only one year. That is, they made a few of them.
3. Even in wartime conditions, there were regular weapons workshops in which non-original magazines could be fitted.

Why, after 1942, with the release of the box magazine, were they not withdrawn with such a deficiency?

To remove weapons from the front in 1942?

[would]

At the same time, I forgot to add that the problem with the interchangeability of magazines also affected box magazines of the 1942 model. To a lesser extent, but it was and remains. Therefore, in the 1955 NSD this paragraph is there.

But with box-shaped ones, all the cases known to me (including modern ones) consist of one thing - the magazine either fits in very tightly (which can be treated with a file) or dangles. I don’t know of any cases where this would lead to problems when shooting; only problems were described when replacing the magazine.

So yes, at least all wartime PPSh suffered from problems with magazines to one degree or another. And this is a well-known fact. And any person really familiar with the history of the PPSh knows that it could not have been otherwise.

[Hitriy Zhuk]

And if you bend the horn forward and to the right/left with a horseshoe?
It seems like the number of cartridges will double. Not?

[ln_ln]

Begs:
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimax_100

[Jan]

Well, I don't know, in my opinion this is all long-since cooled porridge (for those who know ;))! The problem with the disk/tambourine in the PPSh was (and remains) in the design flaws and low quality of production! Its equipment is generally a "song"!!! Those who know - don't laugh... Why the disk magazine is not used at present only because of its "high cost and complexity" is a mystery to me! As well as the screw magazine! The fact that "generals" idolize the "shooting spear" has long been known to everyone. But what about the AXIOM that those who do not want to pay their military will be forced to do it to others ... (unfortunately, I do not remember this quote verbatim)?!!!! By the way, as far as I remember, the RPD had a drum (although it had a belt), and the RPK has a magazine magazine for life !! In general, whoever wants (to solve the problem) looks for opportunities, whoever does not want - looks for reasons.

[MCmaximus]

What is written, you won’t understand.
The RPD was belt-fed. The RPK had both a horn and a tambourine. The RPK-74 only has a horn. The machine gunner, by weight, did not carry the required number of cartridges with tambourines.

[MCmaximus]

Let the minuser answer, what’s wrong? RPD tape?

[MCmaximus]

Now there is industry and all that. But simple boxes for tapes on PCs are not enough. They break, deteriorate and get lost. So the simpler the better.

[Jan]

For those who did not understand: in my opinion, the rejection of the "drum" in the PPSh was a "step back" and worsened its combat characteristics. The only improvement was the simplicity of loading the box magazine and the reduction in the weight of the loaded PP. The task of having a compact and capacious, as well as easy-to-use magazine for the PP remained unrealized.

[Meaning of life]

That is, is it more convenient to carry a PKM with a box of 100 rounds of ammunition than an RPK with a drum of 75? Now machine gunners mainly choose PKM, also because of the ability to fire a 100-round burst.

[mat-vey]

Quote: The Meaning of Life

That is, is it more convenient to carry a PKM with a box of 100 rounds of ammunition than an RPK with a drum of 75? Now machine gunners mainly choose PKM, also because of the ability to fire a 100-round burst.

RPK number two is not provided. The machine gunner carries everything in one person.

[would]

All this could be described in two small paragraphs.

1. Weight. Even the modern RPK-16 with a plastic drum has 1 kg of “tambourines” per 1 kg of cartridges. Once again, the ratio is 1 to 1. For comparison, with a box magazine for 45 rounds, there are 1 kg of magazines per 0.6 kg of cartridges.

2. Over all the decades of development, not a single country in the world has been able to develop a drum magazine that replicates the reliability of a box magazine.

Therefore, in most armies of the world, the drum magazine was and remains a toy for special forces. And then there are such problems as accommodation in unloading, difficulties with equipment, etc.

[MCmaximus]

People didn’t just carry cans in their backpacks. For a long time. These cylindrical things need to be specially laid out. Between everything else. And then the angle always sticks out. The analogy with tambourines is complete. For pure operations - they brought it in, they shot, they took it away - everything is fine. For war - trenches and mud - I doubt it.

[futurohunter]

For some reason, people here talk about the poor ergonomics of tambourines only in terms of charging. But not only that. Has anyone ever carried an AK on a belt behind their back? What would it be like to carry it if there was a round thing resting on your back? In maneuverable combat, the lighter the weapon, the faster you can transfer fire. This is especially important during fire contact with the enemy.
By the way, when I was shooting from the PPSh, it turned out that with my left hand I could only hold it by the disc - there was no fore-end. It was very unusual. Although, respect to the PPSh - it doesn’t jump from the recoil, the recoil goes softly and directly into the shoulder, 10 rounds fit well into one point.
A soldier with a heavier hand weapon will tire out faster in battle. It's inconvenient to shoot around corners with a tambourine. There are too many disadvantages. If we talk about the supply of cartridges, then it is more important for a machine gun in a stationary position, and is solved by using the belt. And other tapes can be connected to the tape. In short, this tambourine is “out of business”

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: futurohunter

For some reason, people here talk about the poor ergonomics of tambourines only in terms of charging. But not only that. Has anyone ever carried an AK on a belt behind their back? What would it be like to carry it if there was a round thing resting on your back?

This is not a machine gun, this is a machine gun. He's forgiven.

[futurohunter]

Forgivable for a single machine gun. For a manual user it is inconvenient. And crawling with this is also inconvenient

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: futurohunter

Forgivable for a single machine gun. For a manual user it is inconvenient. And crawling with this is also inconvenient

Is it more convenient with a tape? And no one forces you to run around with a drum magazine all the time. You can change it to a sector one at any time.

[Fangaro]

Why is there no author? Are the editors testing AI again?