And again about kris as examples of a wavy blade

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And again about kris as examples of a wavy blade


Wavy blade


The wavy blades in stories quite a lot, flambelgue swords, bebutes, kris. There is even a wavy kama in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. But the most accessible for study and collecting are the Malayan kris, which formed as a type weapons at least a thousand years ago, that is, by now they have acquired fairly stable proportions and design.



Even in the books in Indonesian that the author found, the issue of blade proportions is not raised at all, although I don’t know the language and translated “suspicious” parts of the text with a program.

My interest in wavy blades is quite old, and over the years I have been able to not only look at and measure a number of authentic objects in antique stores and a private collection, but also make a number of blades to confirm my thoughts about the meaning of their shape and geometry.

First, I will propose to distinguish between wavy and jagged (serrated) blades. I consider wavy those in which the bends of the cutting edge are repeated by the bends of the butt and/or central edge for double-sided ones. We call serrated blades (serrated) blades that have a straight spine or a straight middle stiffener for double-sided blades in combination with an indirect cutting edge, as in a number of flamberges of the 14th–15th centuries.

It is impossible to study the real combat capabilities of long wavy blades; they no longer fight with edged weapons, but cutting various materials and objects allows us to draw at least some conclusions. Obviously, the wavy blade combines the light weight of a narrow blade with the infliction of a wide wound.

When fencing, a straight blade is more controllable, the enemy’s weapon with some chance will not slip along the “waves” and, conversely, if the blow falls on armor or a shield, then very small sections of one or several waves will be dull, and the rest of the edge between them will remain sharp. “Running” the cutting edge onto the target material at an angle, as when striking with a shamshir, also makes the cut easier, that is, in a fight it would cause a deeper wound.

An important property is “clinginess” - with a tangential glancing blow, such a blade will more likely catch on an object and cut it, which was tested by oblique blows on various materials, from thick stems of weeds like hogweed to the neck of a turkey destined for slaughter.

In addition, a narrow wavy blade requires less steel, it is easier to carry, and the fighting properties of a wide blade are more expensive and heavier.

Production wavy blades seem more difficult than straight ones, but this is not the case. When forging a knife (stretching) to obtain the slopes of the blade by forging, and not by grinding, it inevitably bends towards the butt. This can be easily corrected by heating it again and hitting the future blade with a mallet, resting the knife with the butt on the anvil. When forming the slopes of a double-edged blade, blows are applied alternately from different sides, but uncontrolled bending of the blade still occurs, and it must be constantly adjusted.

The study of materials about Indonesian blacksmiths and the author’s experiments boil down to the fact that first a long straight blade is forged, and then hot it is bent with a wooden mallet or log on the horn of an anvil, checking with a template or a chalk drawing on the anvil. Therefore, the opinion that a wavy blade is much more difficult to manufacture than a straight blade is not entirely confirmed. Yes, you need a good eye and mastery of the tool to bend the blade where it is planned, and not just anywhere, but it still remains within the skills of an amateur blacksmith who forges one knife not every weekend.

Proportions


The author was most interested in the proportions and dimensions of the blades, in which waviness gives an advantage over a straight blade. Some of the probes were made by metalworking by grinding an already hardened strip, this is how all stainless folding knives of this type were made.

In general, the proportions turned out to be quite simple, although it was not immediately possible to find a pattern. If the wave width is less than one-fourth of the total blade width, then the cutting properties even decrease relative to a straight blade of the same length. The optimal proportions here are a third or two-fifths of the width between the dimensional lines into which the protrusions of the waves fit. The wavelengths should increase by the same amount each, as if in proportion. For some reason, identical waves have worse cutting properties than those that increase proportionally towards the handle.

There are also minimum sizes at which a wavy blade loses its advantage over a straight blade. According to experiments, this difference is approximately 120–130 mm; a shorter wavy blade does not have a noticeable advantage over a straight blade, but it is more difficult to sharpen. The minimum is 120 mm and three waves.

The 90 mm blade with 5 waves did not show itself in any way in experiments. But perhaps there are some other proportion parameters at work there that the author has not found.

The steepness of the waves also obeys a certain pattern, that is, the arrow of the deflection should be equal to approximately one fifth of the distance between the peaks. Smaller values ​​greatly reduce cutting properties, while larger ones require a very peculiar movement when chopping, and are no longer suitable as kitchen ones for cutting food on a board.

In the processed photo below, I drew lines to improve the clarity of the relationship between the geometry elements.


Mythology


Empirically, the author managed dispel some myths.

Myth 1 – when cutting, a wavy blade makes noodles at the edges, which slows down the healing of the wound. Reality - when cutting a wide variety of products, objects and materials, from fresh baked goods and insulation to thick weeds like hogweed, it turned out that the waves make one even cut without any shreds or noodles.

Myth 2 - avoiding obstacles with the tip of the blade. Experiments have not been able to confirm or refute this; the tip of a straight knife can also slip off the obstacle (simulated by gluing a coin or button to an object), or the tip of a wavy one can rest.

Any particular difficulty in making a wavy blade relative to a straight one was also not confirmed.

With the metalworking method of manufacturing from a hardened strip, grinding both straight and wavy blades in any case requires work skills. Manually repolishing the blade with sandpaper on a stick after using an electric file, also known as a narrow 13x457 belt sander, yes, requires great care so as not to cut yourself, but even with a straight blade you can get hurt.

Sharpening, of course, involves a round abrasive rod or sandpaper wrapped around a pencil, and then an extra-fine rod like MKR-95, or similar corundum objects.

The manufacture of sheaths is also generally normal, but they require a wooden or polymer insert. However, even for a straight blade, a pure leather sheath is not entirely safe, for example, if it falls on it in the forest.

Acoustics


The surprise was the acoustic properties.

The trick shown at exhibitions with tapping a sword with a pencil, where the ringing supposedly signifies certain fighting properties, turned out to be strictly the opposite in experiments - a dull blade cuts weeds more easily and participates in the slaughter of farm animals (we managed to agree on conducting experiments with a local livestock breeder) than a ringing blade. The explanation is strictly scientific - the force of the blow does not lead to the swing of the blade with a sound frequency, but only to the destruction of the target.

The idea arises that layered damascus and other welded composite blades were originally invented by observing cutting properties, and not for the sake of beauty or saving metal. On the contrary, forge welding of three to five strips of steel with different carbon contents and alloying additives leads to greater loss of metal into scale than forging from one material.

The author has a suspicion that the existence in Asia of wavy kris and razor-sharpened sabers (and the Japanese katana, in terms of the way it is worn, is a saber, not a saber) is initially associated not with any special aspirations of the masters for the perfection of blades, but, on the contrary, with poor nutrition , frequent hunger and weakness of users - the perfection of damaging properties was supposed to compensate for human weakness. Then, as production and agriculture developed, the hungry years became a thing of the past, but the habit of doing “as before” remained.

I will assume that during the period of their existence, European swords were also sharpened to an extremely accessible sharpness, but over five centuries in damp arsenals, and then only in museums, the thin sharp edge simply rusted and crumbled. It is also possible that servants in the 18th–19th centuries deliberately blunted the swords hanging on the walls of the master's mansions so as not to cut themselves when wiping dust from them.


And this is a mushroom knife designed by my wife; the curves of the blade are very convenient for cutting honey mushrooms.
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  1. +1
    9 July 2024 05: 39
    Do the original bebuts have wavy blades?
    1. +3
      9 July 2024 21: 49
      Quote: Architect
      Do the original bebuts have wavy blades?

      In museums and in historical photographs there are simply curved and wavy ones.
      Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
      textbook on plumbing, I would find out

      Actually, I’m a mechanic and assembler, so I practically know the good sharpening angles for tools.
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Armor cannot be cut with a sword,

      There is a version that they tried to cut into unprotected parts of organisms, which is generally confirmed archaeologically and by skeletal studies.
      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      “ringing” axes do not last long (they break over time in the butt

      And there are many reasons for this - from driving crowbars into frozen ground to manufacturing and heat treatment errors. When tapped with a pencil, the axe should ring from the edge by 3-5 cm to the butt, and if it is already mounted on the handle, the boundary between hardened and unhardened can be found with a file. But the butt is not a completely raw metal, for spring steels, cooling faster than 200 degrees per hour is normalization. That is, the blade part of the axe is hardened, and the rest is normalized to 30-40 units.
      Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
      if the ax is not pierced, but welded, the ringing sound means the absence of microcracks in the welding

      Not everyone can distinguish pierced from welded.
      Quote: Popuas
      According to the first photo

      The author mixed up photographs with similar names, this is a knife with a lock invented by my wife. Although he also has a wavy blade.
      Quote: BORMAN82
      Historical examples of medieval European swords rarely showed a hardness of more than 40 units on the edge (often in the mass of material it is noticeably less than 35)

      Kolchin, and not only him, expressed the opinion that austenite and martensite in hypoeutectoid steel can turn into ferrite over the centuries, that is, the hardness of the ancient object decreases.
      Quote: MCmaximus
      People generally tend to mythologize knives and swords. Spears, that's a simple thing

      Myth-making in weapons is a separate topic of research.
      1. 0
        9 July 2024 22: 05
        Actually, I’m a mechanic and assembler, so I practically know the good sharpening angles for tools.

        Why then write nonsense about sharpening swords?
        There is a version that they tried to cut into unprotected parts of organisms, which is generally confirmed archaeologically and by skeletal studies.

        They tried, of course, but they fencing with a sword, and during fencing, the sword can hit anywhere - into the shield, into the armor and into the enemy’s weapon. And it’s clear - the sharper you sharpen it, the greater the chance of crumbling the edge of the blade. and lose an expensive weapon due to a break in this place.
        That's why swords were sharpened not for cutting, but for chopping.
  2. +1
    9 July 2024 05: 52
    People generally tend to mythologize knives and swords. A spear, that’s a simple thing. No myths. Although it was the spear that in many ways killed a man.
    But the sword is an elite thing and a legend is needed here. A strange psychological phenomenon. Most likely the man with the sword is the leader. That's why it's a show-off.
    1. +3
      9 July 2024 06: 32
      A spear, that’s a simple thing. No myths.
      I don't agree. Take, for example, the “spear of Longinus”...
      1. +1
        9 July 2024 06: 36
        They found one spear... At least. And about swords - a legend on a legend. And the men and boys take care of their knives and cherish them. They brag about them. But give me a sword or something like that and they’ll completely disperse.
        1. +3
          9 July 2024 06: 47
          They brag about them.
          They compare their pussies. In reality, it is impossible to kill a man armored in chain mail and a Norman helmet with a Carolingian sword. Just hammer it in like a crowbar.
          1. 0
            9 July 2024 07: 00
            Monkeys tend to measure themselves by what others don’t have. This is dominance over others. A person cannot always walk in armor. It's uncomfortable and hot. This is where a knife or sword gives a certain degree of superiority. Especially if you know how to use it better than others. And if you have stabbed someone before, then you are generally cool and a respected person. And no one walks the streets with a spear.
            And God himself ordered to give some flair to the piece of iron that gives you superiority. You have to understand that they show off swords and knives to their own people, not their enemies. This is all very old and ancient.
            And then, edged weapons are simply beautiful.
            1. +3
              9 July 2024 07: 07
              And then, edged weapons are simply beautiful.
              I absolutely agree with this!
              1. +1
                9 July 2024 16: 58
                Hello Anton!
                Beautiful? --- Yes!!!...
                Until we talk about functionality.)))
                1. +2
                  9 July 2024 17: 12
                  Hi Uncle Kostya!
                  Quite functional until the enemy dons a Hauberg.
                  1. +2
                    9 July 2024 17: 23
                    "And I follow the words of Jesus:
                    “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
                    However, I prefer a pistol." (c)
              2. +2
                9 July 2024 17: 01
                On the issue of functionality. Stills from the film "The New Adventures of the Yankees"
          2. +3
            9 July 2024 11: 55
            Hello Anton!
            In reality, it is impossible to kill a man armored in chain mail and a Norman helmet with a Carolingian sword. Just hammer it in like a crowbar.

            If I understand anything about fighting in a “shield wall,” the Huskerl’s task was to block the enemy’s shield with his shield and strike him in the neck, face, or legs. Moreover, a number of blows involved delivering a cutting blow on return. The technique of working with an ax is simpler.
            1. +2
              9 July 2024 12: 14
              Hello, Vlad!
              That's right. The burial ground in Visby confirms this.
              1. +2
                9 July 2024 19: 02
                I agree Buddy!
                The most curious thing is that the ancient military art quickly came to the understanding that the perfection of tactics is an order of magnitude more effective than the evolution of individual weapons. With the advent of the phalanx and manipular formation, this began to develop in a complex. The Middle Ages, due to the squad and banner concept, poked around in the dark almost until Agincourt.
                1. +1
                  9 July 2024 20: 03
                  The most curious, ancient military art quickly came to the understanding that the perfection of tactics is an order of magnitude more effective than the evolution of individual weapons
                  I think this is not an understanding of the perfection of tactics, but an understanding of the importance of command and control on the battlefield.
          3. +1
            9 July 2024 21: 02
            In reality, it is impossible to kill a man armored in chain mail and a Norman helmet with a Carolingian sword.

            Where do you get all these stupid thoughts from? Just wondering.
  3. +5
    9 July 2024 06: 35
    And it turned out to be interesting material! This is a kind of response from a practitioner to the theorist Shpakovsky.
    Thanks to the Dorofeevs!
    1. +5
      9 July 2024 09: 27
      This is a practical answer

      The answer is from a practitioner - an amateur, because many of the author's maxims clearly illustrate that in the field of cold weapons, metallurgy and materials science they are, to put it mildly, not specialists.
      And some "strictly scientific" explanations, obtained on the basis of cutting weeds, about "swinging the blade at a sound frequency", excuse the frankness, are not connected with reality at all.
      Not as a reproach to the authors, but the article belongs in “Opinions”.
      1. +4
        9 July 2024 09: 31
        Yes, I’m having fun from the bottom of my heart, Viktor Nikolaevich!
  4. +4
    9 July 2024 07: 01
    I will assume that European swords during their existence were sharpened to the maximum possible sharpness
    Possibly sharpened. The sword is the everyday weapon of a feudal lord against an unarmored peasant.
  5. +4
    9 July 2024 08: 22
    An extremely amateurish article. The author would have learned from blacksmiths, perhaps, forging and, most importantly, heat treatment of forged things, and especially long-bladed ones, so that he could then draw such profound conclusions
    Therefore, the opinion that a wavy blade is much more difficult to manufacture than a straight blade is not entirely confirmed.

    But this is generally “wonderful”
    I will assume that during the period of their existence, European swords were also sharpened to an extremely accessible sharpness, but over five centuries in damp arsenals, and then only in museums, the thin sharp edge simply rusted and crumbled. It is also possible that servants in the 18th–19th centuries deliberately blunted the swords hanging on the walls of the master's mansions so as not to cut themselves when wiping dust from them.

    If only you had read a textbook on metalworking, you would have learned that different sharpening angles exist for different tools, and that a chisel is never sharpened like a razor. And swords are not used for shaving - they are used to chop at armor - at metal.
    In general, no matter what the thesis, it is a masterpiece.
    1. +1
      9 July 2024 09: 27
      “And Baba Yaga,” as always, is “against”! Isn't that right, Ivan Ivanovich? laughing
      But they don’t shave with swords - they use them to cut into armor - into metal.
      Armor cannot be cut with a sword; the falchion was invented for this purpose.
      1. 0
        9 July 2024 20: 57
        Armor cannot be cut with a sword; the falchion was invented for this purpose.

        What's the sword for? Wear it to show off?
  6. +3
    9 July 2024 09: 33
    Through experience, the author managed to dispel several myths.

    To “dispel the myths” in relation to the damaging effects of edged weapons, at least three things are necessary:
    - the presence of an original weapon or a remake. Fully matching the characteristics of the original.
    - possession of appropriate equipment;
    - availability of an appropriate ballistic dummy.
    In the absence of these, no “dispelling” will work.
  7. +4
    9 July 2024 09: 53
    In general, the proportions turned out to be quite simple, although it was not immediately possible to find a pattern.

    A pattern could not be found. In order to find a pattern in the case of kris, it is necessary to find the logarithmic decrement of oscillations or the attenuation decrement - a dimensionless physical quantity that describes a decrease in the amplitude of the oscillatory process and is equal to the natural logarithm of the ratio of two successive amplitudes of the oscillating value x in the same direction.
    I won’t write the formula, the picture is below.
    1. +3
      9 July 2024 12: 08
      Nikolaevich, let’s get this straight - what’s good for a crowbar is not bad for a rapier.
      From my own experience, I know that “ringing” axes do not last long (they break in the butt over time), although they hold an edge for a longer time. Multi-layer knives cut meat better, but caring for them after cutting the marinade for kebab takes much more time than cutting itself.
      Grandfather chose braids by law. The new scythe was left in a ditch for the winter. Then he cleaned it of rust, beat it and sharpened it, first with a whetstone, then with a whetstone. The canvas lived no more than 7-10 years. The old ones were ground down to zero from sharpening.
      1. +1
        9 July 2024 13: 21
        let's use our fingers

        Let's.
        “ringing” axes do not last long (they break over time in the butt)

        If the ax is “ringing”, that means. that it is made of good tool steel. And if it “broke in the butt,” then in the vast majority of cases it was used for other purposes - as a sledgehammer or wedge.
        My “ringing” ax is over a hundred years old. As well as a hammer for beating braids. My grandfather did it himself, being a foundry worker at the Krieger plant. I no longer beat off my braids, “the iron horse has replaced the peasant’s horse.” And the ax performs its functions properly.
        A new scythe, left in a ditch for the winter

        A completely meaningless procedure. For cast steels, this ancient tradition is useless.
        1. +4
          9 July 2024 18: 48
          A completely meaningless procedure. For cast steels this ancient tradition is useless

          Grandfather was the son and grandson of artel zhigars (charcoal burners) and lived according to his own traditions.
          My father, having the Dnepropetrovsk Metallurgical College behind him, laughed at this practice, but did not try to convince his father-in-law.
          From the ancestral tools I got a full set of pitchforks, scythes, rakes and horses, including a jackhammer. Alas, I haven’t mastered it yet; I play on the Verkhneserginsky semi-automatic machine. Axes, crowbars and shovels are already factory-made from the 70s and 80s. Of the oldies, only an ancient forged kalun, pliers and a pick.
          Regarding axes, this was a common problem. It was somehow solved at the factory forge, but I was not interested in how I was young.
          Among the hand tools I received was a roofer's set with iron scissors. A test item.
          Well, somewhere like that.
        2. +1
          9 July 2024 21: 13
          If the ax is “ringing”, that means. that it is made of good tool steel.

          Yes.
          But in addition - if the ax is not pierced, but welded - a ringing sound means the absence of microcracks in the welding. This means it won’t fall off and will last a long time.
  8. +2
    9 July 2024 12: 28
    The author has a suspicion that the existence in Asia of wavy kris and razor-sharpened sabers (and the Japanese katana, in terms of the way it is worn, is a saber, not a saber)

    Author, drive away this suspicion from yourself. It demonstrates your complete ignorance of the subject. The sharpening angle of the razor is 10 - 15 degrees. The sharpening angle of the katana is 30-40. And the shape of the blades is completely different.
  9. +2
    9 July 2024 12: 50
    Regarding the wavy blades, I immediately remembered “The Gunsmith Tarasyuk” by Weller lol
    The topic of his diploma was a two-handed sword with a “flaming” blade.

    Such a sword has almost the entire blade - except for the final one to one and a half feet - zigzag. Scientists have realized the obvious: the blow is delivered only with the end where the normal blade is. As for the meter-long sinusoidal segment, this is supposedly in imitation of paintings depicting archangels with fiery swords: a wavy tongue of flame. And the dissertation wrote: “The influence of Christian religious painting on the weapons of the crusader knights.”

    The irreverent Tarasyuk left no stone unturned from the pundits. Weapons are always extremely functional! - he was furious. It is decorated - yes, but changing the form for the sake of ideology is nonsense! (It was the free-thinking year of 57.) Ceremonial weapons, ceremonial ones - yes, there are just trinkets. But a combat sword is not a matter of fat, if I were to live, I had to survive and win, to hell with painting.

    The inventor of this sword was a genius, Tarasyuk admired. After the First Crusade, he decided to combine the power of a large sword with the cutting effect of a bent Arab saber: it is better to cut with a pull with a bent blade, you pull it towards you - and the bend cuts itself, the principle of a saw. But a saber will not take steel armor, and a bent two-handed sword requires three meters in height, which even the best of the knights did not possess: therefore, there are several bends and arcs - this is a sword-saber-saw! The enemy's parried blade is more easily retained in the deepening of the bend and does not slide to the guard - the protective qualities are improved, it is easier to move on to your own striking attack. The zigzag shape gives the sword springiness in the longitudinal axis - this softens the blow to the hands when parrying, making defense in fencing easier. Finally, the same springiness imparts additional force to the blow with the end of the blade: thus, the blow of a flail made of a lead ball on a flexible handle made of whalebone is stronger than the blow of a hammer of the same weight and the same length of a rigid wooden handle.
  10. 0
    9 July 2024 16: 56
    Based on the first photo, the idea came to use such a knife to weight a blow with a fist, something like brass knuckles... hi
    1. +2
      9 July 2024 20: 34
      use such a knife to weight a blow with a fist, something like brass knuckles...
      It doesn't work that way. When you meet something hard, for example, your opponent’s forehead, you will break your own fingers.
      1. 0
        9 July 2024 22: 06
        You don't just have to wave your fists... wink
  11. 0
    9 July 2024 20: 53
    I will assume that during the period of their existence, European swords were also sharpened to an extremely accessible sharpness, but over five centuries in damp arsenals, and then only in museums, the thin sharp edge simply rusted and crumbled. It is also possible that servants in the 18th–19th centuries deliberately blunted the swords hanging on the walls of the master's mansions so as not to cut themselves when wiping dust from them.

    About the “thin sharp edge” of a medieval sword, this is a masterpiece!
    For the general development of the author.
    Historical examples of medieval European swords rarely showed a hardness of more than 40 units on the edge (often in the mass of material it is noticeably less than 35). At the same time, the percentage of coal in steel ranged from 0,2 to the same 0,6%, depending on the distance to the edge and the specific product.
  12. +1
    9 July 2024 23: 36
    The article is not without interest, although everyone attacked the author.

    Can we conclude that some special niche and functionality of such weapons is not visible?
    It can’t be said that it cuts particularly efficiently, but at the same time, hemorrhoids are difficult to manufacture and sharpen, right?

    A wavy blade should have higher internal stresses. Did you feel like the blade was about to break?
    1. +1
      10 July 2024 09: 54
      Quote: Engineer
      Interesting article

      Thank you. I don’t know how to write at length, I wanted to respond to Shpakovsky’s material.
      Quote: Engineer
      some special niche and functionality of such weapons is not visible

      On the contrary, it is visible. Lightweight chemical weapon for cases when it is impossible to purchase or carry a normal weapon, but something is needed just in case, for living creatures, and so on.
      A household tool with better cutting properties than a straight blade, which is important for people with frail physiques
      It cuts better, but the production is the same.
      Quote: Engineer
      higher internal stresses

      The question is dark. Hardening is definitely less than that of a blade of the same size. Anything can be broken, it’s a matter of circumstances.
  13. +2
    10 July 2024 17: 38
    Thanks for the very interesting article Author! Personal experience is priceless!
    A question inevitably arose for you because you may be knowledgeable about materials for swords, etc. - what percentage or name of the alloy, from your point of view, is most ideal for a sword? suddenly you had research on this matter .. Or hardening processes, etc. decide more than chemical ones. compound ?