The internecine war in Northeast Russia 1174 — 1177. Approval on the throne of Vladimir Vsevolod Yurevich

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The internecine war in Northeast Russia 1174 — 1177. Approval on the throne of Vladimir Vsevolod Yurevich The son of Yuri Dolgoruky and the younger brother of Andrei Bogolyubsky, Prince Vsevolod Yuryevich the Big Nest (in baptism Dmitry, 1154 - 15 on April 1212) became the Grand Duke in 1176 and almost 37 years reigned. During the years of his reign, Vladimirskaya Rus reached the peak of its power. The author of The Lay of Igor 's Party, stressing the strength of his power, wrote that the army of the Grand Duke could "splash the Volga with oars and scoop Don with shemales." The reign of Vsevolod III is the period of the highest ascent of Vladimir-Suzdal land. Vsevolod Yuryevich received his nickname - Big Nest for a large offspring: he had twelve children (eight sons and four daughters).

Period of Troubles

During the reign of Andrei Bogolyubsky, Vsevolod was in South Russia, fulfilling the orders of his elder brother. After the murder of Andrew in 1174, the Rostov and Suzdal boyars came to Vladimir with the embassy of Gleb Ryazan and convened a meeting where the question was raised: who should be invited to the throne. It seemed that the younger brothers of the murdered prince, Mikhail and Vsevolod, who were his closest associates and followers of the great-power politics, should take the throne. However, the boyars did not even want to hear about it. It was said that Rostov and Suzdal are “senior” cities, and Vladimir is their “suburb”, its inhabitants are only slaves, “masons”, and cannot solve issues of this nature. The associates and brothers of Andrew did not suit the Rostov-Suzdal boyars, could and punish the conspirators, besides continue the autocratic policy, limiting the self-will of the boyars. They spoke for the nephews of the Grand Duke - Mstislav and Yaropolk Rostislavich. These were the sons of Rostislav Yuryevich - the eldest son of Prince Yuri Dolgoruky, brother of Prince Andrew.

Both of these princes were participants in the conspiracy of Princess Anne against Andrew Bogolyubsky (for more details, see Andrei Bogolyubsky and the creation of Vladimir Russia. Fight against the intrigues of Byzantium) and they were expelled from Vladimir-Suzdal land. After that, they were in the south of Russia, but they did not distinguish themselves anywhere and were not fixed. Such prince - colorless, "flexible" and required boyars. In addition, Gleb Ryazansky was married to their sister, and supported their desire to occupy Rostov and Suzdal.

It must be said that while the Rostov-Suzdal boyars were spinning their nets, all four princes did not yet know about Andrei’s death, nor the situation in the Vladimir State. They even at that time were in good relations with each other. Moreover, they stayed with Svyatoslav of Chernigov, who acted as the patron of Dolgorukov’s descendant, supported them (Yury Dolgorukiy helped Svyatoslav at one time, and did not forget that debt). When a delegation of Rostov boyars arrived in Chernigov, who called Rostislavichi to the table, they did not even understand what was happening. The situation was discussed by the four of a kind, and they decided that the eldest, Mikhail, should reign. Rostislavichi reported that they were inferior to him, and they all went to Vladimir together. Boyars, learning about the situation, sent a second embassy, ​​which intercepted the princes in Moscow. They were able to lure Rostislavich to their side, and secretly took them away from Michael and Vsevolod. In Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, Mstislav was proclaimed the Grand Duke.

However, the residents of Vladimir did not accept this decision and invited the Bogolyubsky brothers to their place and declared Mikhail to be the state. However, he failed to rule. The Ryazan-Murom army of Gleb Ryazan led to Vladimir and the Rostov-Suzdal regiments approached. They besieged the city, but the Vladimir residents refused to surrender. For 7 weeks, the townspeople stood behind Michael and defended themselves courageously. For two months Ryazan, Murom, Rostov and Suzdal residents besieged Vladimir and ravaged the surrounding villages. Mikhail and Vsevolod were experienced warriors, but did not expect to go to war, arrived with a small retinue, leaving the squad in the south. The townspeople held out until the food ran out, the famine forced them to begin negotiations. They asked Michael to leave. Mikhail and Vsevolod were able to slip out of the blockade ring. The townspeople agreed to submit to Yaropolk and Mstislav, only by taking an oath from them, not to revenge Vladimir.

The Grand Duchy was divided into two parts. Mstislav Rostislavich sat down to reign in Rostov and Suzdal, his brother Yaropolk in Vladimir. Thus, Rostov became the capital of the principality again for a short time. They agreed with the Novgorod boyars. Son of Andrei Bogolyubsky Yuri (George) was expelled from Veliky Novgorod, calling for his son Mstislav. However, soon the situation was again destabilized. Too victoriously behaved themselves predatory. As a result of the victory of Rostislavich, the position of the common people seriously deteriorated. In the Rostov-Suzdal principality, the boyars hurried to reward themselves for their long abstinence, when Dolgoruky and Bogolyubsky kept them in check. The princely villages were seized, free peasant communities were not captivated, the tax was taken into their own hands, three skins were dragged from people (taxes were taken with furs). They placed their people in administrative posts. Prince Mstislav was a convenient ruler, he endorsed all the decisions of the boyars. In addition, the prince handed out to his warriors the posts of posadniks in Rostov-Suzdal land and turned a blind eye to judicial "charges" and bribes. Vigilantes looking at the boyars, and remaining without princely attention, the same began to behave like predators.

In the Vladimir principality things were even worse. Here Gleb Ryazansky hosted - and his soldiers behaved as invaders, plundered the houses of merchants, artisans, churches, and plundered the villages. Lines and revenues that Andrew appointed to the Assumption Cathedral, Yaropolk took away in their favor (as well as the treasury of the cathedral). In Ryazan, they even gave the Vladimir (Vyshegorodsky) icon, which was considered miraculous. The residents of Vladimir didn’t stand such an outrage and sent messengers to Mikhail to Chernigov: “Go to the throne of Bogolyubsky, and if Rostov and Suzdal do not want you, we are ready for anything and with God's help we will not give up to anyone”.

Mikhail and Vsevolod gave their consent. They themselves were not averse to avenging the offense. They gathered their squads, small but skillful, who participated in many fights on the southern frontier. They were supported by Svyatoslav of Chernigov, singled out the army with his son. With a sudden touch they occupied Moscow. Here they were joined by Prince Yuri (their nephew), who was expelled from Novgorod. In the army flowed Vladimir militia. True, Michael was ill, he fell down, tortured old wounds. But he led the campaign, he was carried in a stretcher. Enemies at this time did not sleep, raised troops. Yaropolk with the Ryazan troops moved towards. They were able to outwit, the Vladimir residents showed the princes a different road and they missed each other. Yaropolk has now become "catching up." He sent messengers to Mstislav and said that the enemies were going “in small numbers,” Mikhail was sick and could not lead the army. He suggested that Mstislav close the road to Vladimir, to take the enemy into ticks.

Mstislav and his boyars took the plan. At the small river Dubrovitsy, a Suzdal regiment leaped out from behind the hill to the army of Yuryevich. But seeing that the forces of the enemy, contrary to expectations, are not small, the Suzdalians were embarrassed. They did not know that the Vladimir residents had already joined up with the squads of Mikhail and Vsevolod. Michael used this hitch to build troops and go on the attack. Suzdaltsev crumpled, many surrendered. 15 June 1175, Michael solemnly entered Vladimir. He was greeted as a savior. The citizens of Rostov and Suzdal also sent a delegation, recognized the authority of Michael. Yaropolk fled to Ryazan, and Mstislav to Novgorod. The Ryazan prince, realizing that power was not on his side, asked for peace and returned the Vladimir icon and other exported values.

Mikhail and Vsevolod were satisfied and did not fight with Ryazan. They did not even punish the Rostov-Suzdal boyars, who were forced to take an oath of allegiance. Mikhail executed only those directly involved in the murder of Andrei Bogolyubsky, and chose not to hurt the boyars of Suzdal and Rostov. He believed that first of all it was necessary to restore peace, not to irritate the boyars with cruel punishments. He even his brother Vsevolod, so as not to cause irritation of the boyars and the conflict, he set him to reign not in Rostov or Suzdal, but on Pereyaslavl-Zalessky.

However, the conflict was not settled. The boyars were still hostile and waited for a convenient moment for the perfidious blow. They knew that Michael was seriously ill and waited in the wings. The Grand Duke of Vladimir was still alive when Mstislav Rostislavich secretly returned to Rostov. Boyars prepared squads, formed an army. In June 1176 of the year, proklazhiv just one year, Michael died.

Lipitskaya battle 27 June 1176 of the year

True, this time the residents of Vladimir did not allow themselves to be taken by surprise. They did not hesitate and summoned to Vladimir Vsevolod, proclaiming him the Grand Duke. Vsevolod Yurevich moved his troops towards the Rostov ratification of Mstislav. From Suzdal, Vsevolod made an attempt to reconcile with a relative. Vladimir Prince offered to stay in the city that chose him, and Suzdal had to decide for himself who he wanted to see on his desk. Mstislav hesitated and was ready to accept this offer, but on the advice of the Rostov boyars Dobrynia Dolgoy, Ivanka Stefanovich and Matias Butovich rejected the offer. The boyars told the prince: "If you give him peace, we do not give."

Vladimirstsy were serious, declared their readiness to fight with Mstislav to the last: “If we are defeated, let them take the Rostov citizens of our wives and children!” Pereyaslavtsy and Yuryevites joined Vsevolod from Yuriev. 27 June rati converged on the field near the Lipitsa and Gza rivers near Yuriev. The camp was “evil”, this was not yet a “nickname in the Rostov land”. They fought for extermination, mercy was not given. Vladimir residents withstood the blow of the enemy, and the Pereyaslav regiment of Vsevolod managed to crush the right flank of Mstislav's troops. After that he overthrew the enemy and the Vladimir regiment. Vsevolod squad organized the pursuit and completed the rout of the enemy. Many prominent boyars were killed or captured, they were brought to Vladimir in fetters. This time the boyars were not spared, their estates and other property were confiscated. Mstislav was able to escape to Ryazan to Gleb.

War with Ryazan

The defeat of Mstislav and the Rostov boyars did not embarrass Gleb of Ryazan, he considered himself strong enough to cope with the Vladimir "masons". It was decided to continue the war. Ryazan made a raid on the lands of Vladimir, burned Moscow, ravaged the border villages.

Battle of the Koloksha River (February 1177 of the year). Vsevolod decided to answer, but not with a foray, but with a campaign to resolve the issue once and for all. Gleb has already shown himself to be an implacable enemy, did not want to live in peace, did not respect the agreements. Ryazan became a springboard for Vladimir's enemies, Vsevolod was not going to endure such a situation. He began to collect troops. The soldiers sent Svyatoslav of Chernigov with the princes Oleg and Vladimir, the prince of Pereyaslavl of the South came Vladimir Glebovich.

The Ryazan prince also did not sit with folded arms. He called for help Polovtsy. Opponents spoke in winter almost simultaneously. The Vladimir army marched to Ryazan the shortest way, from Moscow along the ice of the Moscow River. And Gleb invaded the lands of Vladimir to the east from the mouth of the Klyazma. He did not go to Vladimir, but attacked Bogolyubovo, where he was not expected. The city was plundered, and the neighborhood was ravaged. While Gleb and the Polovtsi ravaged the lands of Vladimir, the news of this reached Vsevolod. He threw the shelves across the path and overtook Gleb on the r. Koloksha. For a month the troops stood opposite each other, there was a thaw, the river divided the army. Gleb and Polovtsy felt confident, the young Vsevolod was not afraid.

When the thaw ended, Vsevolod applied military trick. Sent to the other side of the wagon train with Pereyaslavtsy. Polovtsi delighted, rushed to the bait. While the steppe people besieged the wagon train, which was skillfully defended by the Pereyaslav warriors, Vsevolod and the rest of the troops struck directly at the headquarters and the squad of the Ryazan prince. Ryazan were defeated, Gleb and his son Roman, Mstislav Rostislavich, their boyars, including the traitor-governor Boris Zhidoslavich (betrayed Andrew Bogolyubsky), were captured. Polovtsi, having lost allies, retreated. Yaropolk was able to escape, but soon Vsevolod demanded his extradition from Ryazan. Ryazanians, frightened by complete defeat, seized Yaropolk on the r. Voronezh and sent to Vladimir.

Prisoners of princely origin were unusually harsh. Typically, the princes fought with each other, ravaged cities, entire areas, destroyed thousands of soldiers and ordinary people, could die in battle. However, if the prince lost, he, as a rule, was deprived of his inheritance, but not life, freedom was returned for ransom. All notable captives were planted in the pen. Relatives and other intercessors of the prisoners turned to Svyatoslav of Chernigov, so that he would take on the role of peacemaker. He sent a bishop, asked to release the captives.

The residents of Vladimir, who had been eating grief from Gleb, Mstislav and Yaropolk, demanded to punish the main instigators of the turmoil - to execute them. Vsevolod offered Gleb freedom if he abandons the Ryazan table in favor of his son, and he leaves for the south. But the prisoner proudly refused, saying: "I will die by eating food, I am not going." As a result, unable to withstand the conclusion, in June 1178, he died. According to other sources, citizens learned about the negotiations, rebelled, broke into prison and killed Gleb. His son Roman stayed in prison for two years, swore allegiance to Vsevolod and was released to reign in Ryazan.

Mstislav and Yaropolk Rostislavich were blinded. The Suzdal Chronicle explains the action of Vsevolod by the pressure of the rebels of Vladimir. According to N. M. Karamzin, this punishment was caused by the fact that the second wife of Yuri Dolgoruky and the mother of the younger Yuryevichs came from the Byzantine Empire, where blinding of political opponents and prisoners of war was a common occurrence. Vsevolod adopted this method. Although similar events occurred in Russia before. So, in 1097, after the Lyubech congress of princes, where the principle of inheritance of their fathers' lands by princes was proclaimed, Prince Terebovl Vasilko Rostislavich was deafened to stop princely feuds because of inheritances. He was blinded by order of the Kiev Prince Svyatopolk Izyaslavich and at the suggestion of Vladimir-Volyn Prince Davyd Igorevich, who tried to take possession of Vasilko.

True, there is a version that the blinding of Mstislav and Yaropolk was only a skillfully played performance. Vsevolod remembered the former friendship, kinship, understood that Mstislav and Yaropolk were only weapons in the hands of more skillful politicians. The people had to be reassured and the princes "blinded." The Novgorod Chronicle reports on their subsequent "miraculous healing" in Smolensk in the church of Saints Boris and Gleb on Smyadin.

I must say that the "blinded" princes did not calm down. Left to live, Mstislav and Yaropolk wanted revenge and went to Novgorod. The “golden belts” remembered the policy of Bogolyubsky and fearing that Vsevolod would continue his line, supported them. Mstislav soon died, and Yaropolk settled in Torzhok and began to make raids on the lands of Vladimir. 1180 year Vsevolod after 5-week siege, took and burned Torzhok. Yaropolk was wounded and captured again. According to some data, he died in custody in the same year, according to others he was released and died after the 1196 year.

So, the internecine war in Northeast Russia 1174 — 1177. It ended with the victory of Vsevolod Yuryevich, the Grand Duke's power won over the troubled princes and the landed aristocracy. This victory was in the interests of the broad strata of the population — the peasantry, the townspeople, and the growing nobility (at that time they were called “youths,” “swordsmen,” “virnics,” “smaller retinue,” etc.). The autocratic power essentially defended their external enemies and internal “predators” who wanted to enslave ordinary people.
23 comments
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  1. Yoshkin Kot
    +2
    22 February 2013 09: 05
    Thank you for the article!
    1. Marek Rozny
      +3
      23 February 2013 17: 32
      Thank you for the article. It is written in detail and interestingly. To author +
  2. avt
    +5
    22 February 2013 09: 57
    Well, against such a background, "the princely squabbles need a 300000th invasion? This internecine strife is, ..... the death of the Russian Land ...." And if you take into account the fact that the steppe inhabitants were well known. They fought with them, made friends, became related, fought again. In general, the usual communication of that time. The decision to conclude an alliance with a strong, stable formation for military assistance seems quite reasonable. That looks quite in the spirit of the times and world practice rather than a passionarr solar kick in the ass to every nomad in search of the last sea.
    1. +2
      22 February 2013 10: 33
      No, avt ...
      A kick ... it's somehow more romantic ....
      What is so boring ... to collect the Rat. 200 vigilantes (or even less), heaped on the one with only 150. And even easier - outbid (did they bother then, Great Russian idea?).
      ..
      But then ... from Nebushka ... yes, after a little while - and where is the Extreme Sea there? To go, perhaps, to wash the boots ... in the Indian Ocean-sea?
      And if it’s not on the back of the head, but on the back, which is lower than the lower back - so ... LLCOO is a passionate push. Which kick.
  3. 0
    22 February 2013 10: 26
    Yeah, read it ..
    Especially the battle on the Koloksha River .... or Kalka? K.L.K.
    ".. The prisoners of princely origin were treated unusually harshly.
    ..All the noble captives were put in logs ... "
    Poruby covered .. wooden lids.
    And on top ... the winners were drinking ...
    And the Arab traveler who was present at the same time - of a fantasy direction - dashed off ... a trilogy .... Brothers from the Ring ..
    ..
    Where does the information come from? If only the sources indicated Alexander Samsonov.
    ...
    That's how much I read ... stories - I can’t get rid of the feeling given to me in realities - that all this is nothing more than a literary treatment.
    Fantasy.
    1. Yoshkin Kot
      +4
      22 February 2013 10: 30
      I’m okay, I understand that you’ll be served pearls from the new chronology, but history does not know the subjunctive mood
      1. +1
        22 February 2013 10: 38
        You can’t even imagine, dearest Yoshkin Cat - how much YOU are right. wassat
        In all right. fool
        Especially in terms of fantasy. fool
        We all ... grew up in fairy tales. crying
        Some are still in a fairy tale. stop
        Welcome. hi
        ..
        ..
        I have my own chronology.
        But I'm not going to impose it on anyone.
    2. +2
      22 February 2013 10: 35
      Quote: Igarr
      Where does the information come from?

      From Zorin's novel "Vsevolod the Big Nest", very much like.
      1. +1
        22 February 2013 10: 47
        Yes, this is an ordinary Karamzin ...
        ..
        Another thing is that this whole story with Vsevolod is a direct prerequisite for the centralization of Russia.
        What is known in traditional history as the invasion of Batu.
        Rearrange dates. Correct the names.
        And that’s .... no additional ... attraction is needed.
        ...
        Occam's razor.
      2. Yoshkin Kot
        +3
        22 February 2013 12: 50
        um, people just learn history from the serious works of serious historians, in contrast to the fans of "fantasy" Fomenko-Nosov
    3. 0
      22 February 2013 18: 03
      So it's all fantasy. I was convinced of this in the late 80s - early 90s, when Solzhenitsyn was indulged in indigestible fiction as historical work. Then, mathematicians and historians began to advertise with such obsession that they were already becoming ill.
      And the sources of this article, in my opinion, are the Vladimir Grand Princely Code of 1205.
    4. +1
      22 February 2013 21: 17
      Where does the information come from?


      Information from the annals. You can meet at least in this book. About the Grand Duke in White Russia Vsevolod Yuryevich starting from page 220.
  4. avt
    +1
    22 February 2013 11: 06
    By the way. But the European epic of the Mongols walking in search of an outlet to the sea is also very similar to the situation in Russia. Indeed, at that time there was a serious conflict between the Hohenstaufens and the Pope. And it must be the same as the Mongols in search of the sea have successfully blended! Defeated the Catholic Poles, Hungarians, got to the Czechs. And then, suddenly, they flooded into the mountains to the Adriatic Sea, not to the German plain where the cavalry is easier and more prey, but to the mountains. Mongolia remembered with endless forests of games? .Aah, exclaims "passionary". TO THE SEA! But just for some reason, being sad, they scored on Chingiz's precepts and piled off to the Volga. And maybe it didn’t grow together with the Hohenstaufens as with Vsevolod? After all, after their departure, the Pope won, and cut out ALL by the root! And replaced with Hohenzollers right up to 1918.
    1. Yoshkin Kot
      +1
      22 February 2013 13: 22
      Khan in Stavka died, or hansha? I don’t remember something in the Great Horde
      1. avt
        +3
        22 February 2013 13: 38
        Quote: Yoshkin Cat
        Khan in Stavka died, or hansha? I don’t remember something in the Great Horde

        There was such a version in Yan’s novel, with the name of the capital that they still can’t find, Karakorum or something, but I believe that there will be a nomadic passionate Schliemann and he’ll dig it out, but that's why Batu with a regular battle-hardened army scored for the election with the device , as on the last sea, and calmly so migrated between the rivers Don and Volga. The most optimal place to keep the cavalry army. In summer, the head does not hurt with grazing - water and feed piled up. Well, in winter, fodder will be thrown at the expense of tribute or in excess for a fee for the provision of armed support, the respective princes who were given letters of protection. By the way, after that campaign the Mongols simply scored to Europe. Perhaps the sun has set, is there some kind of eclipse, or has someone else heated up their heads passively? Or maybe they have in a new place Anasha ended and the withdrawal began ??? laughing
        1. Yoshkin Kot
          0
          22 February 2013 13: 43
          carcorum? can not find? they didn’t lose him, visit Mongolia, see
          and Jan had nothing to do with it, he just used historical sources, he himself very, very mediocre knew the history
          1. +1
            22 February 2013 15: 36
            The specific location of the Karakoram?
            Call, plizz.
            Show on the map.
            Not speculation ... namely, a confirmed place.
            Judging by the scribble travelers .. there are no less than Rome was.
            Mongolian spill.
            1. 0
              22 February 2013 18: 54
              And Hara Horin her? And Yadrintsev and Pozdneev probably not scientists? Although I ....
              1. +2
                22 February 2013 21: 40
                Hara Khorin ... noooo.
                And these two comrades .... not that ... (. Scientists, of course .. see how many cubes they shoveled ... foremen, Mlyn ..)
                Far-fetched ...
                Beijing is better in this regard.
                ..
                So Makar ... Zmiev shafts ... throughout Russia ... Svyatogor, tea, plowed, huh?
                ..
                The Olga-Horha doesn’t doze off .... he breathed a little ... smoke of wormwood ... not that yet ... he imagines.
                1. +1
                  23 February 2013 20: 48
                  Well, you know better here on the forum. Hope and jester Zadornov historian with a capital letter made. And all sorts of Klyuchevskih - it’s like that, the stink of pereytuza. Yes Yes..
        2. Marek Rozny
          +2
          23 February 2013 17: 50
          The steppe capitals of the Horde people consisted of yurt settlements. There were capitals located in the cities of the conquered countries - Beijing (called by the Horde Khanbalik, which literally means "Khan's city" in Turkic), there were capitals of a semi-settled-semi-nomadic type (Saraichik). However, most of the Horde khan's headquarters consisted of yurts. This is how almost all khans lived from the time of the Turkic Khaganates and up to the last Kazakh khans of the 19th century.
          The capital of modern Mongolia, Ulan Bator, is still half composed of yurts.

          Threat. Stepanyaks never used drugs (anasha). The settled inhabitants of the East - Chinese, Sarts, Tajiks, Persians, Afghans - indulged in this. Nomads lacked koumiss and araka (alcoholic drinks from horse milk).
          1. Octavian avgust
            0
            24 February 2013 22: 01
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            The capital of modern Mongolia, Ulan Bator, is still half composed of yurts.

            You say it for sure! laughing
      2. +3
        22 February 2013 15: 48
        The death of Udegei in Karokorum, all Genghisides were obliged to arrive in Kurultai for the election of a new khan.
        1. +1
          22 February 2013 21: 56
          Well.????
          Arrived..
          where is the tomb?
          Where is the pantheon?
          Where is the wealthy burial of the Lord of Peace?
          And if - looted - where .. tormented sighs? The Chinese?
          Or - looted - and .. fuck with him .. ???
          ..
          ..
          The Chinese have managed ... supposedly 10 thousand ... to put clay figurines. Well, of course, their gold ... was stolen.
          And the Mongol - who stole ??
          ..
          ..
          Damn ... Chickens - ol (tyn) -thoy -... Turkic-speaking and do not need to be translated ... Choice (s) .. one (sole) .. golden, supreme.
          1. Marek Rozny
            +5
            23 February 2013 20: 45
            Quote: Igarr
            Damn ... Chickens - ol (tyn) -thoy -... Turkic-speaking and do not need to be translated ... Choice (s) .. one (sole) .. golden, supreme.

            No no no. The word "kurultai" has a simpler etymology. From the Türkic verb "Arau" - "to collect something into a single whole". "Kurultai" - literally "Meeting".
            In addition, the Kurultai are convened not only to elect someone, but also on other pressing matters. The kurultai convened annually among the Kazakhs, while the khan gathered a council of ulus sultans, heads of clans and biys (people's judges). Now the kurultai are still gathering with all Turkic peoples, although in different forms - some have the name of the parliament, others have a more cultural event. By the way, all-Turkic Kurultai are also held. Once he was held in the KZ, and twice in Hungary.
          2. 0
            24 February 2013 12: 40
            Igor, in your comments you are constantly struggling with the inertness of thinking, but here you have deviated from your rules, moreover, you have somehow answered in an ordinary way. Why is it necessary to have a magnificent tomb ?, And a pantheon? If Yasu is taken for reality, then Temujin was a rather severe person, not only to those around him, but also to himself. And, knowing quite accurately the number of his enemies, he could pre-specify the secrecy of his burial.
            1. Marek Rozny
              +1
              25 February 2013 13: 52
              The Turks never had magnificent graves. Only a small mound, and a little to the side balbal (the so-called in Russian "stone women") sometimes. Depending on the status of the deceased, they put them in the grave - horses, weapons (required), they could put food, some personal items. For the khan, they could put slaves and slaves to serve him in the next world.
              The grave of a simple steppe is already becoming invisible after a couple of decades. And after a hundred or two hundred years, the mound is not visible. The huge royal mounds that are still visible - usually a fashion of more ancient times - 2500 years ago, nomads loved to do so, they also put a lot of gold. And in the Middle Ages, barrows were simplified, people became even easier about life and death. Balbals gradually began to be made of wood, which then under Islam ceased to bear the image of a buried man. Moreover, until now, the Kazakhs put tall thick pieces of wood that once symbolized balbals on the graves.
              Since ancient times, there have always been thugs who robbed mounds in search of gold. In order not to desecrate the grave of the kagan, it was made so that it was impossible to guess that the Great Khan was buried here. According to legend, herds of horses were driven over the grave, so that no one could see the traces of the funeral.
              Yes, and the slaves who took part in this matter were taken to the other side and killed so that they could not blot out the location of the grave.
              1. 0
                25 February 2013 19: 04
                Thank. And where does the knowledge come from. if it `s not a secret?
                1. Marek Rozny
                  0
                  25 February 2013 20: 18
                  Yes, many books on the funeral traditions of nomads - Scythians, Huns, Late Türks (Polovtsy-Kipchaks). In Soviet times, archaeologists excavated thousands of graves of Turks throughout the steppe. Well, and just my own knowledge from my everyday life. He himself buried his father as his father was buried. True, with the spread of Islam, Kazakhs began to put mazars instead of bulk mounds - these are stone (brick) mini-houses.
                  In the past, mazars were also a place where travelers could wait out bad weather or night. If in the Western world a cemetery is associated with something gloomy and scary, then among the steppe people, on the contrary, it is the safest place. Kazakhs still believe in aruakhs ("ancestral spirits"). And not a single bandit can attack a traveler who has spent the night in the mazar, because the spirit of the deceased will be indignant and punish the criminal at the same moment. That was the mythology associated with the graves.
                  But it is impossible to step on the grave itself. In some places not far from the auls there are sections of the steppe, simply fenced off with wire. There seems to be nothing inside. But God forbid you to climb over this wire in front of the locals! They will swear strongly. These are cemeteries that are several hundred years old. "Pre-Mazar" yet. Initially, these were small burial mounds, which over the past centuries have completely leveled off and become invisible.
                  Find the grave of Genghis Khan - IMHO, it is impossible. She does not stand out in the steppe. Even a mound. It is necessary to re-talk the entire eastern part of the Eurasian steppe.
    2. predator.3
      +3
      22 February 2013 22: 58
      Quote: avt
      ... Mongolia remembered with endless forests of games? .Aah, exclaims "passionary". TO THE SEA! Yes, that's just for some reason, saddened, they scored on the precepts of Chingiz and rolled off to the Volga.


      No, everything was very banal, there were BATU in the army IF 14 Genghisides were not mistaken and they all had to participate in the election of a new khan, the same Guyuk (future khan) participated in this campaign, and therefore returned to the main headquarters.
      1. avt
        0
        23 February 2013 09: 41
        Quote: predator.3
        No, everything was very banal, there were BATU in the army IF 14 Genghisides were not mistaken and they all had to participate in the election of a new khan, the same Guyuk (future khan) participated in this campaign, and therefore returned to the main headquarters.

        You see what a thing, the authorities do not joke, never, otherwise it ends badly for the joker. And if EVERYONE has to be in the elections, then EVERYONE is going to. And then Batyga specifically scored on all the Chingizids and went to the Volga to rest. And in general it was not heard that he would appear in his “historical homeland.” He sent more and more letters. Well, there is no such blatant disregard for the supreme power. Even for his subjects he was obliged to observe decency, to maintain the authority of the authorities.
        1. Marek Rozny
          +2
          23 February 2013 17: 56
          Batu was in a bad relationship with Guyuk. Because he was on the Volga and stopped halfway, having justified himself that he was ill and needed peace and treatment. In Karakoram, he would have had to swear an oath to Guyuk, and he did not want to do this. When Guyuk was finally elected the Great Hagan, both Genghisides began to prepare for war. But Batu was saved by the fact that Guyuk did not have time to rule and died during the campaign to Batu.
    3. Marek Rozny
      +3
      23 February 2013 17: 44
      In Europe, the Horde did not just stagger, crushing the local kings, but chased after the rebellious Khan of a small part of the Kipchaks, Kotyan, who had a grudge against the late Genghis Khan. The Horde people, who included most of the Kipchaks, understood that it was impossible to leave the opposition khan, who at some point could win over his fellow tribesmen. Kotyan, after being defeated by the Horde everywhere in the Steppe, in Russia and in the Caucasus, eventually went to Europe - to Hungary, tk. there were ancient relations between the Kipchaks and the Hungarians, incl. and blood dynastic. When the Horde defeated all Europeans on the way to Hungary, the Hungarians themselves decided to kill Kotyan out of harm's way and in order to eliminate the stumbling block between them and the Horde. The conflict was over. In addition, at the same time, the Great Kagan died and the Chingizids, who commanded the "western grouping of troops", had to return to Headquarters to take part in the election of a new kagan.
      The corps left Europe for home. On the way, the Bulgarians defeated one of the small detachments of the Horde, but Batu decided not to stop and go home. However, already next year the Horde returned to Bulgaria to punish for the destruction of their unit. But the Bulgarians died and paid off with a big tribute. This conflict has also been exhausted.

      By the way, a considerable part of modern Hungarians still consider themselves descendants of the Kipchaks of Khan Kotyan. They still annually spend their Kipchak pre-Islamic holidays. And they elected the head of the Union of Kipchaks of Hungary ... Nazarbayev)))))
  5. +3
    22 February 2013 13: 05
    There is a good historical novel about Vsevolod and his time "Behind the Forest Sheloms", though I don’t remember the author, but I think who will find it interesting.
  6. avt
    +4
    22 February 2013 15: 41
    Quote: Yoshkin Cat
    carcorum? can not find? they didn’t lose him, visit Mongolia, see
    and Jan had nothing to do with it, he just used historical sources, he himself very, very mediocre knew the history

    Yes, no, if the archaeologists did not look like this to this day, like the grave of Chingiz. In general, the descriptions of the "Mongols" by Wilhelm de Rubruk 1253-1255 are very interesting, just a split summary and not a description of travels, the Dominican Andre. You touch on the chronicles, then it is very interesting ! In the Chinese, the dating is still not established - it walks from 1233-1236 to 1877-1927. In the Persians there is no decoding of the name "Mongol" in the Arab Mongols in general, there are only Tatars. And the “Mongolian” chronicles are only in Chinese hieroglyphs, such as from the words of the Mongols, but they say there was a Uyghur version, this is closer, Mongolian documents are in Uyghur. But they did not find it. The Byzantines generally wrote about the Takhars in common people called ataria. I propose to consider the current Astana - Akmolinsk as Karakorum, and even earlier AKMOLU - the grave of the white man. lol Crowning Europe, let it be scary laughing
    1. 0
      22 February 2013 21: 51
      Here to live .. a white shark ..- .. black death ..
      Intimidated, nafig, dead ...
      ..
      No way ... no way ...
      the Mongols believed by the age of Tengri .. the Chinese .. by the outbreak in the Dragon .. rusich from landing starships from the SwAR-Horn ... Roosters - from Chornobog, well, etc ..
      "Go find a knife here ....."
      ...
      And what did the Arabs think? ... From Muhammad ?.

      Peacocks, you say? Fucking ...
      1. avt
        +2
        23 February 2013 18: 43
        Quote: Igarr
        Here to live .. a white shark ..- .. black death ..
        Intimidated, nafig, dead ...

        I'll finish it. They are the Mongols, they went to Afghanistan and some remained there. BUT stupid, uneducated Afghans of their descendants are called HAZARIANS and are terribly not respected. Here savages are not passionate, they do not want to learn the traditional generally accepted history! laughing
        1. Marek Rozny
          +3
          23 February 2013 19: 04
          That is yes. Tajiks and Pashtuns do not like the Hazaras, to say the least. But they are still wary of conflict with them)))) The Hazaras are good-natured in principle, but if you start them, the Pashtuns and Tajiks will be beaten up by their mother. But the Afghan Uzbeks on the contrary treat them as their own.
          Hazaras still lead a nomadic life, generally poor, but always full, unlike Pashtuns and Tajiks.
  7. busido4561
    +3
    23 February 2013 08: 26
    All happy holiday Defender of the Fatherland Day! soldier