“The Book of Veles” and Slavic neo-pagans

138
“The Book of Veles” and Slavic neo-pagans
“The Book of Veles”, publishing group “Gran-Fair”, 2023


At all times and eras, people have had an irresistible desire to fake or “correct” this or that historical document. Some did this because of the banal desire for profit. Others acted for ideological reasons - they wanted to “tweak” and “ennoble” the history of their country, to make it more heroic or “ancient.” Thus, in the 18th century, Europe fell under the spell of the “Works of Ossian, son of Fingal,” the authorship of which was attributed to the hero of the Celtic sagas, Oisin, who allegedly lived in Ireland in the 3rd century. n. e. Goethe, through Werther, said:



"Ossian drove Homer out of my heart."

Napoleon carried a book with these verses with him everywhere; US President Thomas Jefferson called Ossian “the greatest poet that ever lived on earth" In Russia, the “poems of Ossian” were translated by Zhukovsky and Karamzin. But in the 19th and early 20th centuries it was proven that the Works of Ossian, with the exception of a few fragments borrowed from Gaelic folklore, are a stylization written by their “discoverer”, James Macpherson.

In Russia, many documents were falsified by retired warrant officer of the Preobrazhensky Regiment Alexander Sulakadzev.


Presumable portrait of Sulakadzev, made by his colleague V.F. Lazarev-Stanishchev, 1826

Sulakadzev’s most famous falsifications were the “Hymn of Boyan” and the famous report about the clerk Kryakutny and his balloon flight in 1731:

"1731. In Ryazan, under the voivode, the clerk Nerekhtets Kryakutnoy made a furvin like a big ball, inflated it with foul and stinking smoke, made a noose from it, sat in it, and the evil spirit lifted him higher than a birch tree, and then hit him against the bell tower, but he grabbed the rope, which they called, and still remained alive. They kicked him out of the city, and he went to Moscow, and they wanted to bury him alive in the ground or burn him.”

As a result, skepticism appeared in society towards all newly discovered documents, and some doubted (and still doubt) the authenticity of “The Tale of Igor’s Campaign”, although Pushkin drew attention to the fact that in Russia at the time of the appearance of this poem there simply was no a person capable of creating a work of this level:

“Which of our writers in the 18th century could have had enough talent for this? Karamzin? but Karamzin is not a poet. Derzhavin? but Derzhavin did not know the Russian language, not only the language of “The Song of Igor’s Campaign.” The others did not all have as much poetry as is found in Yaroslavna’s lament, in the description of the battle and flight.”

Since Pushkin was not only an excellent poet, but also the author of a completely serious historical work, “The History of the Pugachev Rebellion,” his opinion in this case can be considered an expert.

And today we will talk a little about the so-called “Book of Veles” - texts allegedly written on 35 birch tablets - of course, lost. On them, on behalf of the Novgorod Magi, the history of the ancestors of the Slavs is outlined. The “Veles Book” begins with the story that the ancient Slavic tribes left Semirechye, and ends with a message about the arrival of the Varangians. That is, events are covered from approximately the middle of the XNUMXth century. BC e. until the XNUMXth century n. e. - no more, no less!

Serious experts immediately recognized the “Veles Book” as a falsification; it was not even published in the USSR until the troubled times of Gorbachev’s Perestroika. For the first time, the full text of this “Book” was published in our country in 1990, and since then the “Veles Book” has been intensively promoted by all kinds of adherents of “alternative history”.

"Nakhodka" "Veles Book"


Soviet and Russian historian I. N. Danilevsky, head of the department of history of ideas and methodology of historical science of the Faculty of History of the Higher School of Economics, drew attention to the fact that the story of the “Veles Book” is very similar to the story about the discovery of Mayan knot writing, which is contained in Jack’s story London "Hearts of Three". The tablets were “found” in August 1919, when in the dilapidated estate of Velikiy Burluk (the estate of the Zadonsky nobles 14 km from the city of Volochansk, Kursk province), they were allegedly discovered by White Army Colonel Theodor Arturovich Izenbek (Ali Izenbek) - the grandson of the Kokand bek, a graduate of the Marine corps, commander of the artillery division of General Markov's regiment and amateur artist.


Isenbek in a self-portrait

Isenbek put the planks in a duffel bag and did not tell anyone about them for a long time.

This is where things start to get weird. It is surprising that such valuable “artifacts” were in the estate of not very noble and famous nobles - and for some reason none of the members of this family wanted to become famous and go down in history as the second Musin-Pushkin by showing specialists at least one of these tablets. And Isenbek himself later did not strive to become famous and get rich by selling the treasure he received to some museum or rich collector. But he was not at all rich and, having settled in Brussels in 1922, made a living by drawing sketches for the Tapi carpet factory. He showed the tablets brought from Russia only to another emigrant - Yu. A. Mirolyubov, a native of Bakhmut, who had a medical education, but was engaged in journalism, wrote poetry and prose works and was very interested in the pagan beliefs of the Slavs.


Mirolyubov later claimed that he saw 35 tablets (38 cm long, 22 cm wide and 6-10 cm thick), drilled in two places and fastened with a cord, and on each of them there were inscriptions (on both sides), apparently, pressed into the wood with a sharp stylus. Paint was rubbed into the indentation areas, and the top was coated with varnish.

And, again, Mirolyubov did not tell anyone about the sensational discovery, the significance of which he, of course, immediately understood, since, according to him, he spent either 14 or 15 years of his life rewriting the text (and copied approximately 75% ) – although it was much easier to just photograph them. But only one photograph was taken, and in 1959 L.P. Zhukovskaya (an employee of the Institute of Russian Language of the USSR Academy of Sciences) proved that this only photograph presented to the public had traces of folds. That is, it is just a photograph of a drawing on paper.

On August 13, 1941, Isenbek died, bequeathing his property to Mirolyubov, but the tablets mysteriously disappeared and were never found.

Mirolyubov reported about the discovery of the “Veles Book” only in November 1953 - through a certain A. Kur (another amateur historian - emigrant, participant in the White Guard movement A. Kurenkov): in the small American magazine "Firebird" he published a report about "ancient wooden"tablets of the 5th century with the most valuable historical writings on them».


“Photograph of Isenbeck Tablet No. 16,” Firebird Magazine, San Francisco, 1955.

The publication of the text of the “tablets” in this magazine was then carried out until 1959. This message attracted the attention of S. Ya. Paramonov, an entomologist who settled in Australia and specialized in the study of... flies. In the USSR, Paramonov served as director of the Kyiv Zoological Museum, during the occupation of Ukraine by Hitler’s troops he collaborated with the Germans, in 1943 he accompanied exhibits stolen by the Nazis to Poznan, in 1945 he ended up in Paris, in 1947 in Australia, where, taking the pseudonym S Lesnoy, began to write articles on ancient Russian history. It was he who called the text of the “tablets” the “Book of Veles” and became one of its main popularizers. Later, other foreign emigrant authors also worked with the texts of the “Book” - B. Rebinder (in France), V. Shtepa (in Sweden), V. Kachur (in the USA), P. Sokolov (in Australia) and some others. And in 1972, the Soviet poet I. Kobzev, in his article “Vityazi,” informed readers that the oldest chronicle had been found in Australia, which contained the story “about the life of the ancient Russians for a period removed by one and a half thousand years from Askold and Dir”(as they say, “I heard a ringing, but did not understand where it was”).

As already mentioned, in the post-Soviet space, a surge of interest in the “Veles Book” was noted in the 1990s: then, for example, the Russian Doctor of Philosophy Yu. Begunov (Moscow), the Ukrainian philologist B. I. Yatsenko, as well as the Serbs Radivoj Pesic - professor at the Universities of Milan and Belgrade, Doctor of Philology Radomil Miroevich. In 1992, at the International Symposium “Destruction and Renaissance of Slavic Civilization” in London, “Veles’ Book” was even recognized as “an important link in pan-Slavic values" The above-mentioned Yatsenko and Pesic translated the text into Ukrainian and Serbian, respectively. N. Slatin, A. Asov and G. Karpukhin made their own translations into Russian. The most famous translation is by Asov, a graduate of the physics department of Moscow State University in the department of physics of sea and land waters, who became the author of many works in the folk history genre, and in 2005-2007. for some reason he held the post of editor of the history of the Slavs in the journal Science and Religion.

A very interesting and unusual biography of another “adept” of the “Veles Book” - V. Skurlatov, who together with N. Nikolaev in 1976 in the newspaper “Nedelya” published the first article in the USSR about the “Veles Book”. Just like Asov, he graduated from the Faculty of Physics of Moscow State University, began a good career in the Komsomol, and in 1964 became the organizer of the University of Young Marxists (UMM) under the Central Committee of the Komsomol. At the end of 1965, at the plenum of the Komsomol Central Committee on issues of military-patriotic education of youth, he presented the “Charter of Morals,” which proposed, for example, the introduction of public corporal punishment for immoral acts and sterilization of women who had extramarital sex. Skurlatov’s charter seemed so odious to everyone that the author was removed from the Moscow City Committee of the Komsomol, expelled from the CPSU, and the UMM organized by him was liquidated. Already in 1968, Skurlatov was reinstated in the CPSU, in 1983-1985. he taught a special course “Criticism of the Ideology of Zionism” at the Peoples' Friendship University. Patrice Lumumba (in 1984, the program for this special course was published in 2000 copies). He became one of the leaders of the “neopagan trend” in science fiction literature, actively collaborated with the publishing house “Young Guard”, his works were published in the popular almanacs “Secrets of Ages” and “Roads of Millennia”. One of his like-minded people, by the way, was the famous artist Ilya Glazunov. He spoke out in support of the State Emergency Committee and was among the participants in the storming of Ostankino and the defenders of the White House in 1993. In the early 2000s. became chairman of the Orthodox Brotherhood of St. Apostle Andrew the First-Called.

Another ardent propagandist of the “Veles Book” was Yu. Petukhov, who called himself an ethnologist and historian, but in fact was an engineer. He is often called a "pseudo-historical writer." However, over time, he began to agree that the authenticity of this source had not yet been established, but insisted on the need for its scientific study.

But what is this notorious “Veles Book”?

The language of the Book of Veles


The style of writing, according to the “discoverer” Mirolyubov, corresponded to the Cyrillic letter of Rus' at the end of the 1950th – beginning of the 25th centuries. Alphabet of the text, which S. Paramonov in the 2s. called “Vlesovitsa”, according to him, has 1960 letters and three diphthongs. The letter with which a word ends is the same as the letter with which the next one begins, and the language has some similarities with Polish, Russian and Czech. The above-mentioned article by L. Zhukovskaya (magazine “Questions of Linguistics” No. 1500, XNUMX) said that the language of the “Veles Book” is absolutely impossible for the XNUMXth century. A number of researchers (V. Buganov, A. Mongait, F. Filin, O. Tvorogov) suggested that there was a forgery, also carried out by the above-mentioned A.I. Sulakadzev. “Velesovitsa” turned out to be a slightly modified Cyrillic alphabet, and a rather late version of it, and the way of designating dates (“XNUMX years before...”) is absolutely uncharacteristic of chronicles. The same words in different places are written in the text in different versions (Bulgarian, Czech, Ukrainian), some are built on the model and rules of the Polish and Serbian languages, there are also primitive false Church Slavonicisms, obtained mainly by replacing “zh” with “ railway", as well as false Serbisms. Pronouns are used incorrectly, for example, “yakiy” or “yakvy” instead of the ancient “izhe”. In the text of the Book of Veles, it was not possible to identify any consistently observed grammatical rules; phonetics, morphology and syntax do not correlate with data on the state of the Slavic languages ​​in the XNUMXth century. The style of presentation differs sharply from all other ancient Russian sources, there are practically no details, and few characters. By the way, in the text itself this “source” is called “Vlesknigo”, but, according to the rules of the Old Russian language, it should be called “Veleshe knigi” (in the plural). Some researchers have stated that the text of the “Book of Veles” is simply a set of never-existing (invented) words, among which there are distorted Czech, Polish, Serbian, Ukrainian, a number of Old Church Slavonic, as well as those that are found only in the “Tale of the Regiment” Igor".

Contents of the "Veles Book"


It has long been pointed out that it is impossible to determine the genre of the “Book of Veles”: it is not a chronicle or chronicle, not a mythological or philosophical treatise, not a prayer book, not an “appeal”. Most of all, it looks like a collection of pagan sermons, and it turns out that the “Novgorod Magi” in the 9th century were very familiar with the Bible - they freely use expressions “the stones cry out”, “the land flowing with milk and honey”, “now and ever and unto ages of ages”, “this great mystery is” and so on.

The arguments of supporters of the authenticity of the “Veles Book” can be judged by the quote from A. I. Asov:

“The main confirmation of authenticity cannot be accurately expressed in words. It comes from personal spiritual experience. The very spirit of Vlesova’s book speaks of authenticity. Its mystical secret, the great magic of the word.”

However, Asov did not disdain obvious fraud, so in 1997 he named as his like-minded person I. Levochkin, who was critical of the “Veles Book”, the chief researcher of the book sector of the Scientific Research Institute of Manuscripts of the Russian State Library (died in 2013). D. Loginov tried to declare the most authoritative archaeologist A. V. Artsikhovsky (discoverer of birch bark letters) as another supporter of the authenticity of this work.

The text of the Book of Veles contains six chapters, which present information on the history of Rus', as well as on the pre-Christian beliefs of the Slavs. For example, three worlds are reported: Yav (real), Nav (otherworldly) and Rule (the world of laws that govern everything in the world. And the Slavs, it turns out, also worshiped the Indian god Indra, “who, together with Perun, starts all the fighting" and which "followed us, as he followed our fathers against the Romans in the land of Trojan", as well as Surya. Russians are called descendants of Dazhdbog, who gave birth to them "via Zemun cow" It is said that "the gods of the Rus do not take human or animal sacrifices", and the form of government is called the veche.

In the first chapter, the ancestral home of the Slavs is called Semirechye (an area named after the seven rivers flowing into Lake Balkhash).


Semirechensk region on the map of 1900

From there, our ancestors allegedly went to Mesopotamia, and then entered the territory of modern Syria (second chapter), and lived for some time in Egypt. It turns out that the Rus were subjects of Nebuchadnezzar and were called Scythians (in fact, the Scythians are an Iranian-speaking people). Then the Slavs ended up in the Carpathians, where they lived for about 500 years, then moved to the banks of the Dnieper, fought for 200 years with "pagans" and "bone-sided", and 100 years before Germanaric (that is, about 350) "went to the Poles».

The third chapter talks about the origin of the Slavic tribes and the appearance of their traditional names:

“In those days there was Bogumir, the husband of Slava, and he had three daughters and two sons... From here come the Drevlyans, Krivichi and Polyans, for the first daughter of Bogumir had the name Dreva, and the other – Skreva, and the third – Poleva. The sons had names - Seva, and the youngest - Rus. From them come the northerners and the Russians.”

The fourth and fifth chapters of the Book of Veles report on the wars of the Slavs with the Greeks, Romans, Goths and Huns. And the sixth chapter tells about the time when the Slavs were under the rule of the Khazar Khaganate, as well as how the Varangians became princes in Russian cities. About Askold, for example, it is reported that he:

“Not a Russian, but a Varangian, and he wants to trample Russian power, but he will die doing evil... Askold defeated our prince by force and defeated him. Askold, and after him Dir, sat down with us like uninvited princes.”

It is alleged that at that time Ognebog turned his face away from the Rus, because they “had a prince baptized by the Greeks" This refers specifically to Askold, who was allegedly baptized by Patriarch Photius during the reign of Emperor Michael III. It is further stated that this Askold (who, we recall, led the first campaign of the Rus against Constantinople) was a convinced Grecophile:

“Askold is a dark warrior and is so enlightened by the Greeks today that there are no Rus, but only barbarians. But we could ridicule this, since there were the Cymry, also our fathers, and they shook the Romans and scattered the Greeks like scared pigs.”

Here the compiler of the “Book of Veles” already calls the Slavs relatives of the Germans Cimbri, forgetting that they were previously represented by the Iranian-speaking Scythians.

By the way, religious tradition connects the campaign of Askold and Dir with the so-called miracle of the immersion of the cover of the Most Holy Theotokos into the sea - supposedly after this a storm arose that sank the enemy fleet. However, contemporaries know nothing about this miracle - everyone is confident in the defeat of the Byzantines. Pope Nicholas I reproached Emperor Michael III for the fact that the aliens left unavenged, and Patriarch Photius, who was in Constantinople during the hostilities, argued that “the city was not taken by their (Russian) mercy" He spoke about the Russians in his sermon:

“A people of no name, not counted for anything, unknown, but who received a name from the time of the campaign against us... who reached brilliant heights and untold wealth - oh, what a disaster sent down to us from God.”

(“Two conversations of His Holiness Patriarch Photius of Constantinople on the occasion of the Russian invasion”).

But we digress.

The famous Rurik in the “Book” is called a robber who

“like a fox, he prowled the steppe with cunning (?) and killed merchants who trusted him.”

In general, based on the above, we can conclude that the “Veles Book” in no case can be recognized as a genuine document, but is a forgery, most likely made not even by the famous forger A. Sulakadzev, but by Yu. Mirolyubov in the middle XX century. However, it is still actively promoted by Slavic “neopagans” who use its data during their rituals.
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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +10
    2 July 2024 05: 13
    Excellent material, bravo to the author! He left no stone unturned from Filka’s letter good
    1. +2
      2 July 2024 20: 21
      By the way, if historians find “manuscripts” (documents) of Ukraine in the 21st century (let’s say Kuev remains part of Ukraine, which will include only Kuev and Galicia), then it will be indicated that the Russian Horde invaded a great European power.
      and these will be genuine documents, but printouts of all sorts of Russian telegram channels that can be found, for example, in the building of TsIPSO, GUR and other similar charazkas will be considered fakes because they are not official documents. But what was it really like in history? about the Maidan and the coup d'etat, they (the Skakuas) will not keep official documents.
  3. +9
    2 July 2024 05: 34
    Thank you, Valery! In troubled times there is a return to cheap sensations.

    How are things going with Reality and other things?
    1. +8
      2 July 2024 08: 53
      . How are things going with Reality and other things?

      And I add Slava on my own behalf.
      I don’t know where Slava came from in my imagination, maybe I heard about her once. My glory is transcendental, magical, military, and I feel as if it really exists, I feel it.

      Thank you, Valery! love )))
      1. +6
        2 July 2024 15: 19
        My glory is transcendental, magical, military,
        Valhalla, in short.
        Hello, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
        1. +2
          2 July 2024 15: 31
          . Briefly speaking.
          Hello, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!

          Hello, Anton! wassat )))
          Are you going to write your own “Veles Book”? Or, at worst, the Voynich Manuscript?
          In principle, both are easy.
          1. +6
            2 July 2024 17: 12
            I'm going to write "Instructions for Survival in Medieval Paris."
            1. +3
              2 July 2024 17: 16
              . I'm going to write "Instructions for Survival in Medieval Paris."

              Support!
              Countless videos on the Internet show that the indigenous population of Paris will be grateful to you. I believed that the Middle Ages blossomed only in San Francisco, but this is how it turned out...
              So the historians of the future will argue among themselves about when it was, the Middle Ages.
      2. +11
        2 July 2024 16: 23
        The domestic interpretation of Yin and Yang is now popular. Our seasoning for these unfamiliar words is called Bullshit.
        1. +6
          2 July 2024 17: 13
          Our condiment for these unfamiliar words is called Bullshit.
          “Wasabi radish is not sweeter!” (C)
          1. +3
            2 July 2024 19: 04
            But we are already getting used to the cuisine of Vietnam and India.
            1. +6
              2 July 2024 19: 39
              That's right!
              “You can’t spoil sushi with lard!” (C)
              1. +3
                2 July 2024 21: 07
                “Who cares, but the gypsy gets scrambled eggs” (c).
              2. +4
                2 July 2024 23: 22
                "You can't ruin sushi with lard!"

                Sergei is wrong. We'll soon get used to pilaf... what
                However, I see that half is assembled? wink
                Damn, no matter how many times I watched it, it’s just fucking funny! laughing
                1. +2
                  3 July 2024 01: 12
                  In Central Asia, pilaf is wonderful.

                  And ours is with us.

                  “I wish I had a bite of bread” (c).
                  1. +2
                    3 July 2024 20: 05
                    “I wish I had a bite of bread”

                    And that is true! drinks
            2. ANB
              +3
              3 July 2024 00: 41
              . to the cuisine of Vietnam and India.

              No, not that. Korea rules. Soup with kimchi, with fern, from beef tails, from beef tendons.... And cold kuksi (although our okroshka is tastier)?
              :)
              1. +5
                3 July 2024 01: 13
                I liked Korean food. On Sakhalin.

                However, “our daughter-in-law is cracking everything” (c).
                1. +1
                  3 July 2024 20: 04
                  I liked Korean food. On Sakhalin.

                  On Sunday I was visiting a Korean family. The food is very tasty, although the only Korean national food on the table was funchoza with meat.
          2. 0
            7 July 2024 18: 05
            Mustard greens, hairy rice, red cabbage... Oh, and green mushrooms - that's all Asian cuisine)))
        2. +8
          2 July 2024 17: 24
          . Crap

          She laughed like crazy.
          That's how they are, linguists - they will stretch the thread of fate anywhere, attach it to anything and say that this is how it happened. And they will write scientific works.
          1. +3
            2 July 2024 19: 05
            This is a famous joke. I'm glad that she managed to please you today.
  4. +4
    2 July 2024 05: 46
    Based on the above, we can conclude that the “Veles Book” in no case can be recognized as a genuine document, but is a fake
    Why fake? Maybe this is an alternative contemporary view of history, which can be interpreted as anyone wants?
    1. +7
      2 July 2024 06: 07
      Then why did this contemporary pass it off as an ancient artifact? Didn’t you print it with your signature? “Mystery secret and great spirit” wouldn’t be enough to snatch it?
      1. +3
        2 July 2024 06: 33
        Then why did this contemporary pass it off as an ancient artifact?
        Why did Plato present his Atlantis as an ancient retelling? Something like, I heard this from my grandfather, and my great-grandfather told it to my grandfather, etc. wink
        1. +5
          2 July 2024 06: 59
          Maybe because other Greeks had already written about the fabulous Atlantis before him? The same Herodotus.
          And then: a philosophical myth and an “alternative view of history” - is there a difference? Fairy tale and fake. Myth and lies... Do you believe in Atlantis too? And the griffins guarding the gold? And Veles’s book is not even a myth, or a fairy tale, or a philosophy, or a utopia. Just a lie request
          1. +4
            2 July 2024 09: 02
            And then: a philosophical myth and an “alternative view of history” - is there a difference?
            By “alternative view of history” I mean a slightly different view of current events, different from the one presented by paid chroniclers who collect crumbs from the princely table and express their point of view
            Do you believe in Atlantis too?
            They believe in God. I just read about her
            1. +3
              2 July 2024 09: 20
              For an “alternative view of history”, historical events, facts, and research are needed. What's in the boards? A chronology that contradicts itself in different chapters? A genealogy that contradicts itself in different chapters? Postscripts and blunders? Stories made up of nothing, with arguments in the style of: “well, it’s so beautiful, how can you not believe it”?
              As for being paid, don’t worry, the ideologists of the Veles Book feed well. The truth is not from the prince’s table, but from publishing houses that sell this creativity to people who have learned to read. I'm not even talking about where, in what country, these publishing houses originated
              1. +2
                2 July 2024 11: 41
                What's in the boards? A chronology that contradicts itself in different chapters?
                In any chronicles that have reached us, almost everything contradicts. This is the Bekhestun Inscription, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the Ipatiev Chronicle and many others.
                Postscripts and blunders? Stories sucked from thin air
                The same applies to the chronicles that I noted above. This includes the addition of Darius’s beard and later insertions into the Ipatiev Chronicle and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles
                the ideologists of the Veles book feed well
                I meant the ancient chroniclers who wrote “history” that pleased their master. And modern ideologists undoubtedly feed from this, just as they feed from UFOs, from the Norman theory or the suspicious death of comrade. Stalin
      2. 0
        4 July 2024 06: 12
        Quote: Tlauicol
        Why did this contemporary pass it off as an ancient artifact?

        According to the criminal code of the Republic of Ingushetia, preaching paganism was punishable by exile to Siberia and deprivation of state rights. And the publication of an “ancient source” is generally not punishable. And just give your joke a little more fame.
    2. +9
      2 July 2024 12: 08
      Good afternoon, honest company!!! Valery is a huge plus, I liked it!!!
      Maybe this is an alternative contemporary view of history,

      Yeah, I’m curious if after ... twenty years, archaeologists find a printed edition of “The Lord of the Ring”, the message of the development of events is curious...
      1. +3
        2 July 2024 12: 13
        I’m curious if after ... twenty years, archaeologists will find a printed edition of “The Lord of the Ring”, the message of the development of events is curious...
        The book says it's fantasy, the film says it's based on Tolkien's book. Well, if you turn to the personality of Tolkien himself, you can immediately see that he is a great inventor. So there won’t be any special developments. Everything is clear to everyone wink
        1. +5
          2 July 2024 20: 39
          The book says it's fantasy, the film says it's based on Tolkien's book.

          What if we mentally remove 10 pages at the beginning and end? They say they didn't survive...
      2. +4
        2 July 2024 16: 30
        This must be a handwritten version of the Gothic letter. And preferably a small number of copies. And leather binding with studs is welcome.
        1. +1
          4 July 2024 21: 44
          Quote from Korsar4
          And preferably a small number of copies. And leather binding with rivets

          There seemed to be something like this on Ebay, for the fans. I’m more interested in what future archaeologists will think when they find the works of Sokolov or Slobodian.
          1. +1
            6 July 2024 07: 42
            “Whom the rumor will exalt
            He will remember that after everyone ”(c).
  5. +1
    2 July 2024 07: 50
    Thanks to the Author, interesting material about another falsification. I once had a conversation with one Rodnover, but he was an obvious Tolkienist.
  6. +10
    2 July 2024 07: 59
    Thanks to the author. Maybe he'll go for a cycle? After all, the forgery of historical documents is by no means a unique phenomenon and is often quite profitable. Thus, a certain Frenchman Wren Lucas, who lived in the 27th century, falsified about 000 manuscripts in eight years of “fruitful work”, and began with the beginnings of significant historical figures such as Galileo, Newton and Pascal, and then moved on to handwritten documents of the ancient and biblical characters such as Judas Iscariot, Mary Magdalene and Lazarus. He even forged a letter that was supposed to have been written by the French physician Castor to Jesus Christ.
    1. +2
      2 July 2024 09: 27
      a certain Frenchman, Wren Lucas, who lived in the 27th century, during eight years of “fruitful work,” falsified about 000 manuscripts, starting with the beginnings of significant historical figures such as Galileo, Newton and Pascal, and then moved on to handwritten documents of ancient and biblical characters such as Judas Iscariot, Mary Magdalene and Lazarus. He even forged a letter that was supposed to have been written by the French physician Castor to Jesus Christ.

      Maybe he wrote different Gospels lol
      1. +6
        2 July 2024 12: 14
        Maybe he wrote different Gospels

        There is a book by a famous American expert on the textology of the New Testament, the historical figure of Jesus Christ, the history of the development of early Christianity, Bart Ehrman, “Forged: Writing in the Name of God – Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are” (Fake: writing in the name of God. Why the authors of the Bible are not who we think they are).
        The book claims that eight to eleven of the twenty-seven books that make up the New Testament are forgeries.
  7. 0
    2 July 2024 08: 16
    Although I also doubt the existence and authenticity of the Book of Veles, I think that the history of our people is more ancient than it actually is. Scientists know that the Earth repeatedly changed its poles, natural conditions changed, one living world disappeared and was replaced by another. Where there were cities, there became a sea, and then instead of a sea there became a desert... But here’s the question! Why is our people, at their core, not similar to either the peoples of the West or the peoples of the East? Maybe because he once came from the North? Blonde-haired and blue-eyed giants, which are described in the Indian epic? It cannot be denied that scientists who study the development of civilizations are tongue-tied in their constructions and rarely give up their theories on which they built their careers and theories.
    Only I know that many different nations are mixed in my family... But the awareness that I am Russian, and there is nothing in me from the Western or Eastern mentality, is the foundation of my existence.
    I am convinced that we are neither the West nor the East... We are the North!
    1. +8
      2 July 2024 09: 02
      . We are the North!

      “We are the North!”...Oh, how beautiful! And, most importantly, how truthful. And sadness comes.
      1. VLR
        +6
        2 July 2024 09: 10
        “We are the North!”...Oh, how beautiful!

        I remembered Voloshin’s poems:
        This wind was our true friend
        At the crossroads of all dashing roads:
        For hundreds of years we have been walking towards blizzards
        From the south into the distance - to the Northeast
        .
        1. +5
          2 July 2024 09: 29
          I remembered Voloshin’s poems:
          This wind was our true friend
          At the crossroads of all dashing roads:
          For hundreds of years we have been walking towards blizzards
          From the south into the distance - to the Northeast


          And I remembered other poems by Voloshin

          Deceive me... but completely, forever...
          So as not to think why, so as not to remember when...
          To believe the deception freely, without thoughts,
          To follow someone in the dark at random...
          And not to know who came, who blindfolded,
          Who leads the labyrinth of unknown halls,
          Whose breath sometimes burns on your cheek,
          Who squeezes my hand so tightly in his hand...
          And when you wake up, you see only night and fog...
          Deceive and believe in the deception yourself.


          ...believe the deception...
          I usually change the words
          Deceive me and believe in the deception... love
          1. +5
            2 July 2024 10: 00
            . I usually change the words
            Deceive me and believe the deception

            I think this is the nerve of the article.
            Yes, whatever! History is largely invented; you can’t measure it with instruments. And everyone sees their own. I see beauty in its material evidence. "Zadonshchina", illuminated by Glazunov, is on my shelf. Almost an artifact - circulation 5000.
        2. +2
          2 July 2024 10: 34
          For hundreds of years we have been walking towards blizzards
          From the south into the distance - to the Northeast

          But I'm talking about mine again...
          Again and again, only I believe the Slavs went to the northwest. In the same Vladimir region there is the Voininga River, like all hydronyms, the name of this river is not translated into Ugro-Finnish. Turkic and other languages, however, except for Russian and Sanskrit. Voininga translated from Sanskrit means the road to WAR. Further to the northwest, in Vologda, Arkhangelsk, and Murmansk, Voininga was transformed and shortened to Voinga and Vaenga. The name Voinga was popular among the Slavs, among the Poles and Czechs it became Wojciech and Vojtech, and among the South Slavs it was called Voinga. This was the name given to children who were born in the absence of fathers who went to war.
          Lie to me...
          How is it according to Marx's Capital - question everything, look for your truth...
          1. +3
            2 July 2024 11: 46
            How is it according to Marx's Capital - question everything
            It's kind of like Descartes' saying
            1. +2
              2 July 2024 11: 48
              It's kind of like Descartes' saying

              Maybe, but I read it in Marx drinks
        3. +3
          3 July 2024 11: 45
          Remembered

          Good afternoon, dear Valery!
          Is there an article about a certain Han Van Meegeren in your creative plans? Or is this a *one-time* article about fakes?
          Good luck to you! hi
          1. VLR
            +2
            4 July 2024 09: 30
            Good morning. No, there are other plans for now; a very interesting, it seems to me, article “Wives and girlfriends of commanders” will be published in the near future.
            1. +2
              4 July 2024 09: 34
              Good morning Valery! hi
              It’s a pity, he’s a very extraordinary person. Goering was delighted with his *Vermeer*. laughing
              True, not for long.
      2. +1
        2 July 2024 16: 33
        Look out the window, Lyudmila Yakovlevna. Typical north. Even in the shadows.
    2. +2
      2 July 2024 13: 43
      Quote: Alexander Kuksin
      but I think that the history of our people is more ancient than it actually is.

      It's just that history is hidden in the darkness of centuries. The written history of the Chinese, Greeks, Iraqis, and Egyptians allows us to look back 4000 years; the Russians are only a little over 1000 years old. Archeology allows us to look earlier, but its conclusions are not so clear and are always ambiguous. And the modern history of Russia, even the events of 1990-1995, is often presented from alternative points of view.
    3. +4
      2 July 2024 19: 16
      Naturally, the Slavs and Rus could not come from “nowhere”. Recently, DNA genealogy has been actively developing. Its founder - A.A. Klesov is mercilessly criticized by representatives of traditional historical science, and they criticize the conclusions, noting that the results of the research themselves are of interest (and they often criticize what he did not write - it seems that he is very dangerous to some historians).
      So, almost all nations are formed by representatives of different genera with different genetics (haplogroups), and from a very long time. Therefore, people and nation are not a generic concept, but a socio-cultural one. That is, a nation is formed by a common language, residence, culture, etc.
      As for our people, many modern DNA samples of representatives have roots from representatives of ancient cultures that lived on our territory. Of course, there were many different migrations, both in ancient times, and they are still going on, but the main part has been living in this territory for more than one thousand years.
  8. +3
    2 July 2024 08: 31
    “The Book of Veles” can in no case be recognized as a genuine document, but is a fake
    This is even clear from the history of its appearance..
  9. -1
    2 July 2024 08: 59
    The article has a charge of Russophobia - there is criticism (destructive), but there is no constructiveness.
    "Veles's book"... is a fake
    - a fake of what?
    And the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” were considered a fake, but their consistency with what was happening is surprising.
    From “The Book of Veles” (translation by A.I. Asov, 1997):
    “It was predestined in the old days that we should unite with others and create a great power”
    "Every people should protect themselves"
    “Russian Land! Don't give up on her"
    “kolo (circle, gathering, community) and horses (today – technology, science) are our strength”
    “How did you, Russians, sleep through your arable land?”
    “...we were waiting for the good to come. But it will never come if we don’t rally our strength.”
    1. +4
      2 July 2024 11: 48
      The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were considered a forgery
      And some still consider them fake
      1. +1
        2 July 2024 11: 53
        Which in no way diminishes their importance.
        1. +1
          2 July 2024 11: 57
          Which does not detract from their importance
          And the main thing is that they come true!
  10. +4
    2 July 2024 09: 15
    The text of the Book of Veles contains six chapters, which present information on the history of Rus', as well as on the pre-Christian beliefs of the Slavs. For example, three worlds are reported: Yav (real), Nav (otherworldly) and Prav (the world of laws that govern everything in the world. And the Slavs, it turns out, also worshiped the Indian god Indra, “who, together with Perun, begins all battles” and who “followed us, as he followed our fathers against the Romans in the land of Trojan,” and also - Surya. The Russians are called the descendants of Dazhdbog, who gave birth to them “through the cow Zemun.” It is said that “the gods of the Rus do not take human sacrifices.” animals,” and the form of government is called the veche.

    In the first chapter, the ancestral home of the Slavs is called Semirechye (an area named after the seven rivers flowing into Lake Balkhash).

    The fairy tale is a lie, but there is a hint in it....
    Or maybe it was not the Slavs who worshiped the Indian god, but the Hindus retained the worship of the Slavic gods. Where do we get so many hydronyms, and these are the most ancient surviving topographical names that have Indian names, or rather in Sanskrit.
    Take, for example, the Vladimir region... the Yada River (water in Sanskrit) flows into the Sudogda River (Abundant in Sanskrit), the source of the Indrus River is 80 km from the confluence of these rivers, and the Agra River crosses the M37 highway at 7 km. Now Mordovia, the Sanaksarka River, why not Samsara, and Saransk is in the subject with the Saranka River. And the Moksha River, because Moksha is (Sanskrit मोक्ष - liberation), in the Indian religious and philosophical tradition the final liberation from samsara. And we can continue ad infinitum. I almost forgot, my mother started working as a teacher in the village of Barakhmanka, where the Barakhmanka River is, doesn’t it remind you of anything? and further
    and also – Surya
    there is also the Sura River. And Alatyr flows into the Sura, a flammable stone from the island of Buyan, aka amber, aka an altar.
    Well, what about Semirechye... Look at the map from Wikipedia, illustrating the Kurgan hypothesis, the origin of the Proto-Indo-European language
    1. +5
      2 July 2024 13: 49
      “Or maybe”, “What if”, “Maybe” are not evidence, not facts, not research.

      However, why should we guess - just read Veles’ book. And what is there to be proud of for a young admirer of the Slavic-Aryans? The fact that the mighty mythical ancestors were kicked like a ball from Central Asia to Italy, from the Crimea to Babylon and Egypt by all and sundry? And the Goths and the Huns... That the Russes in the Book of Veles sometimes fall into bondage to one, then to another. (one Babylonian captivity is worth wassat - at least they could come up with something smarter). That they didn’t build anything other than Kyiv and a couple of cities with clumsy names (it turns out that Rome and Babylon and Egypt, etc., etc., were there for a long time, flourished, and were even pushed around by the Slavic-Aryans).
      Well, why do you need such nonsense, fellow Aryans?
      Write a new fake. High quality and sleek. Better yet, turn your face to your history, not to the charlatans
      1. +1
        2 July 2024 14: 12
        That they didn’t build anything other than Kyiv and a couple of cities with clumsy names (it turns out that Rome and Babylon and Egypt, etc., etc., were there for a long time, flourished, and were even pushed around by the Slavic-Aryans).

        Actually, I wrote about the events when the proto-language appeared and what has to do with some cities, the Huns and the Goths, Vanechka. And not about Veles’s book, but about a hypothesis that has more and more supporters from the scientific world
        1. +3
          2 July 2024 14: 30
          From the scientific world? What you wrote above, above the picture, is Zadornov and the Chronolozhians.
          1. +1
            2 July 2024 14: 55
            From the scientific world? What you wrote above, above the picture, is Zadornov and the Chronolozhians.


          2. +1
            2 July 2024 19: 03
            What you wrote above, above the picture, is Zadornov and the Chronolozhians.

            You rated me highly, along with Zadornov...
    2. +2
      4 July 2024 09: 57
      flows into the Sudogda River (Abundant in Sanskrit),

      According to one of the versions from the Finno-Ugric - Sudged / winding /. There is also a Mongolian version of the origin of the name of the river. In general, my father comes from those places, from the Vladimir region.
  11. +3
    2 July 2024 09: 41
    Here the compiler of the “Book of Veles” already calls the Slavs relatives of the Germans Cimbri, forgetting that they were previously represented by the Iranian-speaking Scythians.

    There is still debate about the origin of the Cimbri, so anything is possible, maybe they were “biruder” (in Iranian, brother) to their “bruder” (in German, brother) to the Germans
  12. +8
    2 July 2024 09: 50
    . in the dilapidated estate of Velikiy Burluk (the estate of the Zadonsky nobles, 14 km from the city of Volochansk, Kursk province

    Here were people living in this estate, educated, familiar with Slavic languages ​​- is it really impossible to assume that some of them dreamed of history, of the past? And not so much by the past, but by the origin of your people? And dreams powerfully demanded creativity. Is this how it could have been? And man began to create for himself the world of his ancestors. Not for sensation, not for selling it (not everything in this world changes with money!) - for myself, to live in this world and through this to understand what is happening to the Russian people. But it happened!
    And when it happened, I had to flee, taking in an alarming situation only documents indicating the authenticity of the person, and a little gold with banknotes. And the tablets... Instantly and immediately in a situation when it comes to life and death, they lost their relevance - they were not even remembered. Or maybe for a moment the pain of parting with a cherished thing pierced me. But just for a moment, priorities changed. How many wonderful things remain in abandoned noble estates that were accidentally not burned! Afterwards, of course, they were plundered, destroyed to ruins... Time! Cruel time...
    The abandoned fruits of creativity were found by an educated officer. So educated that he succumbed to their charm, but not so much as to understand that before him was the result of the creative inspiration of his contemporary. But something else is also possible. Based on the experience of his own creativity, he guessed what was in front of him. That's why he didn't give in.
    1. +3
      3 July 2024 00: 36
      Quote: depressant
      But something else is also possible. Based on the experience of his own creativity, he guessed what was in front of him. That's why he didn't give in.

      Alas, this version does not stand up to criticism, no matter how much one would like to believe it.
      Isenbek put the planks in a duffel bag and did not tell anyone about them for a long time.

      Everything seems to be romantic - civil war, field conditions, the officer hides the “planks” in his duffel bag and doesn’t tell anyone about it. But:
      Mirolyubov later claimed that he saw 35 tablets (38 cm long, 22 cm wide and 6-10 cm thick), drilled in two places and fastened with a cord, and on each of them there were inscriptions (on both sides)

      This is a whole “cubic meter” of firewood! What kind of “duffel bag” will this fit into? How can this be hidden without avoiding questions? Forgive me for the disgusting meticulousness, it can be awkward for me, but most likely these texts appeared already in exile, and not immediately, accompanied by long days of forced inaction, lack of demand, endless conversations with fellow sufferers about the fate of the Motherland in the past and future, attempts to crystallize in words Russian character, subjected to dissolution in the caustic environment of forced emigration... And only then there was an attempt at hoax.
      1. +2
        3 July 2024 02: 06
        Quote from cpls22
        This is a whole “cubic meter” of firewood! What kind of “duffel bag” will this fit into?

        Not a cubic meter. I don’t know why they wrote 6-10 cm thickness. There are actually millimeters, not centimeters.
        1. +3
          3 July 2024 08: 55
          Quote: DenVB
          There are actually millimeters, not centimeters.

          It’s hard to believe in the preservation of such thin planks through the darkness of centuries. They weren't lying in the sands of Egypt, were they?
          1. +1
            3 July 2024 09: 04
            It seems that the material part was the weakest point of the hoaxers. That's why she didn't even leave traces. Although no one even thought about radiocarbon analysis then.
            It's simple - what they were rich in the harsh emigrant life, they took advantage of. It was the education and skills of the artist. There were neither the skills nor the resources to make the boards. Where to get old wood? Don't scrape icons...
          2. +2
            3 July 2024 09: 06
            Quote from cpls22
            It’s hard to believe in the preservation of such thin planks through the darkness of centuries. They weren't lying in the sands of Egypt, were they?

            No one has ever seen these tablets, how are they preserved through the darkness of centuries?
            1. +1
              3 July 2024 09: 56
              Quote: DenVB

              No one has ever seen these tablets, how are they preserved through the darkness of centuries?

              So I'm talking about the same thing. If they were real and preserved, they would not be in this form. This is not ceramics.
              1. +1
                3 July 2024 10: 05
                Quote from cpls22
                If they were real and preserved, they would not be in this form.

                If kept in a dry place, wooden planks can be preserved quite well.
                1. +1
                  3 July 2024 10: 09
                  Quote: DenVB

                  If kept in a dry place, wooden planks can be preserved quite well.

                  Where can I get it, is it a dry place in our latitudes? In the basement of a black earth estate? winked
                  1. +1
                    3 July 2024 10: 13
                    Quote from cpls22
                    Where can I get it, is it a dry place in our latitudes? In the basement of a black earth estate?

                    Just in the house.
                    1. +1
                      3 July 2024 10: 22
                      Quote: DenVB

                      Just in the house.

                      Unreal. It is no coincidence that we have very few truly ancient material written sources. Mostly - later copies of the originals, which were taken care of in time.
                      1. +2
                        3 July 2024 10: 35
                        Quote from cpls22
                        Unreal.

                        This does not violate any physical laws.

                        Quote from cpls22
                        It is no coincidence that we have very few truly ancient material written sources

                        No one simply thought that they needed to be preserved for posterity. The scroll has become worn out from constant reading - take it and rewrite it. What else to do in the monastery on long winter evenings.
                      2. +2
                        3 July 2024 11: 04
                        Quote: DenVB

                        This does not violate any physical laws.

                        Museum storage conditions are very different from everyday ones, and are often simply unavailable in everyday life. Even the usual difference between day and night temperatures with normal air humidity is fatal for organic matter on a scale of centuries. What can we say about seasonal changes?
                      3. +1
                        3 July 2024 11: 28
                        Quote from cpls22
                        Even the usual difference between day and night temperatures with normal air humidity is fatal for organic matter on a scale of centuries.

                        How, for example, was the Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God preserved?
                      4. +2
                        3 July 2024 11: 57
                        Quote: DenVB

                        How, for example, was the Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God preserved?

                        Which list of this icon are you talking about? And consider the age difference any the currently preserved icon of the Vladimir Mother of God with the stated age of the “found tablets”.
                      5. +1
                        3 July 2024 12: 13
                        Quote from cpls22
                        Which list of this icon are you talking about?

                        This is what I'm talking about:
                        Since December 1999, the Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God has been located in the Church-Museum of St. Nicholas in Tolmachi at the State Tretyakov Gallery in Moscow[21]. .
                      6. +1
                        3 July 2024 12: 17
                        Quote: DenVB

                        This is what I'm talking about:
                        Since December 1999, the Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God has been located in the Church-Museum of St. Nicholas in Tolmachi at the State Tretyakov Gallery in Moscow[21]. .

                        In the same Wiki they write:
                        Leonid Uspensky in his book “Theology of the Icon of the Orthodox Church” writes:
                        Currently in the Russian Church there are about ten icons attributed to the Evangelist Luke <...> Of course, all these icons are attributed to the evangelist not in the sense that they were painted by his hand; Not a single one of the icons he painted himself has reached us. The authorship of the holy evangelist Luke here must be understood in the sense that these icons are copies (or rather, lists from lists) from icons once painted by the evangelist[3].
                      7. +2
                        3 July 2024 12: 42
                        Quote from cpls22
                        In the same Wiki they write:

                        AND? It is clear that this icon was not painted by the evangelist. It dates back to the 12th century, it seems. Then the image was “renewed” several times, but the board, as I understand it, remained original.
                      8. +2
                        3 July 2024 13: 35
                        Quote: DenVB
                        It dates back to the 12th century, it seems. Then the image was “renewed” several times, but the board, as I understand it, remained original.

                        So it’s a board, not a 10mm thick plank, with a thin layer of varnish. And then this board was “renewed”, increasing the protective layer. It was also oiled and primed initially. Do you feel the difference with embossing on the surface of wood? The thing is that the main criticism of this hoax concerned the texts themselves, because no material source was provided. However, its declared appearance itself does not stand up to criticism from the standpoint of archeology and its experience in the study of material sources. They are silent not because they agree, but because the object of study itself does not exist. Nothing to talk about..
                      9. +1
                        3 July 2024 13: 38
                        Quote from cpls22
                        So it’s a board, not a 10mm thick plank, with a thin layer of varnish. And then this board was “renewed”, increasing the protective layer. It was also oiled and primed initially. Do you feel the difference with embossing on the surface of wood?

                        I do not feel anything. The “planks” can also be oiled. Thickness has nothing to do with it.
                      10. +2
                        3 July 2024 13: 42
                        Quote: DenVB

                        I do not feel anything..

                        Well, okay. Stay to yourself)
                      11. +1
                        3 July 2024 11: 07
                        Quote: DenVB

                        No one simply thought that they needed to be preserved for posterity.

                        We were just thinking and rewriting. After all, they wrote specifically for posterity. This applies to real surviving sources.
  13. +3
    2 July 2024 10: 48
    In the middle of the last century, composer V. Vavilov sometimes signed his works with the names of medieval composers (Caccini, for example). B. Grebenshchikov for some time kept silent about the authorship (Vavilov) of the music of his song “Under the Blue Sky”. “Ave Maria” by Vavilov, especially performed by Cecilia Bartoli, is a beautiful “fake”, there should be more of them.
    1. +5
      2 July 2024 12: 01
      . the most beautiful “fake”, there should be more of these

      And people like Albinoni's Adagio!
      A hoax that art critics and fans of the masterpiece (I am among them) regard as a super hit of the 20th century.
      In fact, this music was written by the Italian music historian and composer Remo Giazotto in the 50s of the 20th century.
      His work on the biography of the long-forgotten Italian composer of the first half of the 18th century, Tomaso Albinoni, did not receive the expected resonance in the scientific community, and the public, especially, did not know this name.
      And then, in the late 50s, Giazotto made a spectacular information dump. Like, one day, in 1945, his path passed by the Dresden Library, which lay in ruins, and under his, Giazotto, feet suddenly appeared a sheet of music, yellowed with time. It had 6 bars of music text and a signature - Tomaso Albinoni. The art critic allegedly attempted to restore the text, and this was the result of “Adagio” - a brilliant creation of a forgotten Italian master, which miraculously survived the fire of a terrible war. The Adagio is still (and always will be) performed and recorded by the best orchestras in the world, and Giazotto has had a meteoric career in his field.
      For those who are not yet familiar with "Adagio" - I recommend it! There is nothing more beautiful than this music. Gives me goosebumps!
  14. +3
    2 July 2024 10: 56
    As a result, skepticism arose in society towards all newly discovered documents, and some doubted (and still doubt) the authenticity of “The Tale of Igor’s Campaign”


    But you can doubt the authenticity. One of our respected author-historians, Vashchenko, noted that there is still no explanation for the words “haraluz swords”. Well, I explained from the point of view of a lyrical engineer that HARA is black, and LUZHNYE are tinned, and I clarified that the only way to increase hardness at that time was to carburize the surface layer of the metal, which is widely used now, turning knives from fence steel in blades with a surface hardness of HRC 50 units or more with a black surface. But I became further interested in this word and it turned out that in Tatar KARALAU it is HARDEN, that is, to harden. Where is Igor, and where are the Tatars? Can change role from engineer to philologist wassat
    1. +3
      2 July 2024 11: 18
      Where is Igor, and where are the Tatars? Can change role from engineer to philologist
      He who seeks will find. wink
    2. +1
      3 July 2024 10: 39
      Quote: Konnick
      But I became further interested in this word and it turned out that in Tatar KARALAU it is HARDEN, that is, to harden.


      Tatar-Russian dictionary

      Karalau
      ch
      1. blacken, paint (paint) black
      2. to stain, to stain, to soil, to soil, to pollute, to pollute, to stain, to stain
      3. to denigrate, denigrate, stain, tarnish, slander, slander
      1. +2
        3 July 2024 13: 16
        Karalau
        ch
        1. blacken, paint (paint) black

        Moreover, carburization is accompanied by blackening.
        And also become stale
        1. +1
          3 July 2024 13: 23
          Quote: Konnick
          And also become stale

          You are translating in the wrong direction.
          1. +1
            3 July 2024 13: 28
            You are translating in the wrong direction.

            How to callous in Tatar?
            Kharaluzhny means to harden with blackening, i.e. carburization
            1. +1
              3 July 2024 13: 34
              Quote: Konnick
              How to callous in Tatar?

              Don't know. The dictionary says "katu".
              katu

              katu
              I uncrossed
              1) harden, harden/solidify, harden/harden || hardening, hardening, hardening

              tufrak yangyrdan son katkan - the soil hardened after the rain
              soyallenep katkan kullar - hands with hardened calluses

              2) dry up/dry up || drying out

              ipi katkan - the bread has dried up
              Irennәrdә kan katkan - there is dried blood on your lips

              3) harden, freeze, freeze, congeal, thicken, become/become hard

              tun may katty - the lard has frozen
              bed katkan - the jelly has frozen
    3. +3
      4 July 2024 06: 22
      Quote: Konnick
      to increase hardness is the carburization of the surface layer of the metal, which is still widely used today, turning knives from fence steel into blades with a surface hardness of HRC 50 units or more with a black surface

      Not necessary. A carburized blade can remain shiny and polished with the correct selection of container backfill and a minimum distance from it to the quenching medium. By the way, hot water plus 65 - 70 is equal to oil in terms of cooling speed. But unlike it, it doesn’t burn and doesn’t stink.
      1. +1
        4 July 2024 06: 31
        A carburized blade can remain shiny and polished if the container backfill is properly selected,

        I'm talking about the village forge, where there was nothing except a forge with charcoal
        1. +2
          4 July 2024 21: 35
          Quote: Konnick
          about the village forge, where there was nothing except a forge with charcoal

          This means the container was made of clay in the form of a tall jug, closed with a stopper and covered with clay. It’s just that I have a PM-8 stove and jugs won’t fit into it.
          The backfill is just charcoal, soda and urea. In general, you can replace soda with lye from ash, and urea with shavings of horns or hooves. All these components were present in the early Iron Age village.
          For some reason, the order of mixing affects the result: grind the coal, add one-fifteenth by volume of soda, grind again with a pestle, add a tablespoon of urea per liter of backfill, grind again for about five minutes. Fill the pot halfway, stick a knife in, tap the filling with a stick, add more, compact it. From the shank of the knife to the lid you need three centimeters of continuous backfill, compacted with a hammer, but without fanaticism, with light blows. Place the container in a stove heated to orange, about 900 degrees, since I don’t have a thermocouple in the stove.
  15. +3
    2 July 2024 11: 24
    “The Book of Veles” and Slavic neo-pagans
    Author, correct the title of the article, you write a lot and in detail about the book, but I didn’t find any mention in the article about Slavic neo-pagans. hi
    1. +3
      2 July 2024 13: 51
      All my friends who believe in the authenticity of the Book of Veles consider themselves pagans. From the outside they certainly look like neo-pagans. So, someone who believes in the authenticity of the Book of Veles is almost always a neopagan.
  16. +7
    2 July 2024 11: 47
    Valery decided to finally drive a nail into Vleles’s wooden book.
    To do this, it is necessary not only to present the arguments of opponents of this manuscript, but also the arguments of its supporters.
    If it is a fake, it was created by an undeniably talented person. Not only an expert in history, but also a linguist.
    The history of the appearance of the Veles Book is not so “falsified”. It is realistic that Isenbek could have discovered them in 1919 and, realizing that they were of historical value, took them with him.
    Mirolyubov and Isenbek met in Belgium in 1925.
    Mirolyubov “sketched” the tablets only in Izenbekov’s apartment. And the fact that he became the heir to Izenbekov’s property is not mentioned in open sources.
    It is surprising that the linguist Zhukovskaya decides that the photograph of the tablet was taken from a drawing. She saw a fold somewhere! And why professionals then?
    Mirolyubov’s views, and at the time of his acquaintance with Veles’s book he was 33 years old, were formed precisely thanks to her.
    If this is a fake, then Mirolyubov was sincerely mistaken. Who is the author of this work is the question. We'll probably never know. But I would really like to!
    Indeed, in the 19th century there were a lot of fakes.
  17. 0
    2 July 2024 12: 57
    Fake-not-fake is not that important to some. It is important why neo-paganism is being promoted and in what situations it is harmful to Russians, and in what situations it is necessary. Orthodoxy is directed outward, and paganism is directed inward (although some pagans call their faith Orthodox). It (paganism) will be needed if events develop unfavorably for the Russians.
  18. +1
    2 July 2024 16: 15
    Quote: awdrgy
    Fake-not-fake is not that important to some. It is important why neo-paganism is being promoted and in what situations it is harmful to Russians, and in what situations it is necessary. Orthodoxy is directed outward, and paganism is directed inward (although some pagans call their faith Orthodox). It (paganism) will be needed if events develop unfavorably for the Russians.


    There are no believing pagans - there are overplayed Tolkienists.
    1. +3
      3 July 2024 03: 24
      Well, don't tell me. It depends on what you talk about faith. Let’s take the faith of our ancestors and it turns out that for “non-descendants” the faith is alien, which means entry is not so free (or let’s say, with the condition that “biology” is primary). Therefore, it is directed inward towards the formation of a monoethnic concentrate.
  19. +4
    2 July 2024 17: 11
    I read several articles about the Book from different authors, but never found any convincing evidence as to whether it was a genuine text or a later forgery...

    But I completely agree with this:

    Quote: ee2100
    If it is a fake, it was created by an undeniably talented person. An expert not only in history, but also a linguist
  20. +5
    2 July 2024 19: 53
    I just logged into telegram - what’s there?
    Accidentally touched the TG "Magnificent Moscow". I scrolled through. People's Observatory... Turgenev Estate... Boulevard on Chistye Prudy...
    These are old photographs, from the thirties of the last century, people are dressed appropriately. And suddenly I felt an enthusiastic awe - exactly the same as they, the people of that time, experienced - in front of science, historical buildings and places. The thrill of a provincial girl, enchanted and delighted. Participation in their impressions came. Their perception matched mine and vice versa!
    But why?
    If I walked through these places now, I would not feel anything like this. So what is it? The transfer of the delight and faith of a nation on a mighty historical rise—a captivating transfer through time and space to me, who assesses the position of my nation almost as if it were declining? I envy them and am grateful... Who would start creating a more convincing fake of the “Book of Veles” - as a sign of breakdown and future revival.
    I'll be waiting.
    1. +4
      2 July 2024 20: 11
      Transferring the delight and faith of a nation on a mighty historical rise,
      You know, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, perhaps you are right. I have repeatedly heard the opinions of people who have now left us that Leningrad (well, of course I praise my “swamp”) was never as beautiful as in the second half of the thirties of the last century.
      1. +2
        2 July 2024 20: 58
        . Leningrad (well, of course I praise my “swamp”) has never been as beautiful as in the second half of the thirties of the last century.

        The unity of the architectural style, apparently starting with Peter. With careful inclusions of new buildings, not dominating the past, respecting the building tradition. I don’t know how it is in St. Petersburg, but in Moscow, apparently, barbarism in the form of infill development is successfully destroying our past. And how, in contrast, the Swedes take care of their capital! Maybe because they do not have a goal to forget their past, to get rid of it as something shameful and alien. With us, no matter what period you take, there will always be someone who will present it as shameful and alien.
        I still managed to see beautiful Moscow. At least the center, not Cheryomushki.
        1. +2
          3 July 2024 06: 46
          I still managed to see beautiful Moscow. At least the center, not Cheryomushki.

          Each generation has its own *human people*. bully Now is the time of PiK and greedy officials. How long will it last and will a person who sincerely loves Moscow come to replace the mayor? Good question. recourse
          Good morning Lyudmila Yakovlevna! hi
          1. +3
            3 July 2024 08: 28
            . Good morning

            Good morning, dear Sergei Vladimirovich!
            You are talking about PiK, but you hear about Airplane. It uses the constructed buildings as dormitories for migrants; they have not been evicted for years; therefore, for years, people have not been able to get apartments that they had already paid for, and even those that were dirty by migrants. And the company is state-owned! And it continuously advertises and is in good economic standing. They are all crooks. Because the mayor is not from a family of native Muscovites. Destination from some polar flycat - complete game! A stranger, devoid of any understanding of building traditions, much less the traditional architectural appearance of Moscow, a hewer of state money.
            To hell with them, let's steal! The heat and magnetic storm are strong, take care of yourself!
            1. +2
              3 July 2024 08: 35
              Because the mayor is not from a family of native Muscovites. Destination from some polar fly - complete game! A stranger, devoid of any understanding of building traditions, much less the traditional architectural appearance of Moscow, a hewer of state money.

              I completely agree with you, but alas and ah *infill development* began under the Muscovite Luzhkov. Although there the opinion of the architectural council under the mayor was of considerable importance. Either the times were slightly *post-Soviet*, or they were not particularly outrageous, but the opinion of the architects is still taken into account. By the way! Here’s a question for you... this morning. bully Did this notorious architectural style even exist in the capital? It seems to me that old Moscow was beautiful precisely because of its different styles! And as such, it was *imperial* only under Joseph Vissarionovich. No? Your opinion.
              1. +3
                3 July 2024 08: 45
                . What different style? No? Your opinion.

                And my opinion is this.
                Seven Stalinist high-rise buildings were placed in places of power and formed the architectural framework of the city, onto which not only pre-revolutionary buildings (entire streets, by the way!), but also works of the constructivist architectural style were naturally strung together. They were afraid of Stalin! It was scary not to get into the topic. So that the leader does not say menacingly: “What is this?!?” And then not the leaders, but the “leaders” went. Without taking into account the fact that such a gigantic, motley country in one piece cannot live without a Leader. Well, when there are “leaders”, then the architectural purpose is lost.
                1. +1
                  3 July 2024 08: 55
                  Without taking into account the fact that such a gigantic, motley country in one piece cannot live without a Leader.

                  But I think that this is just a global trend. The primitivism of the project, minimal construction costs, *grabbing money* and? At least the grass won’t grow after me. Worldwide disposability and *universality*. A striking example of this is modern stadiums, which are called one in one. bully
                  1. +1
                    4 July 2024 06: 27
                    Quote: ArchiPhil
                    global trend. Primitivism of the project,

                    That’s exactly what’s wrong, and design competitions and project competitions are everywhere except in the Russian Federation.
                    Quote: ArchiPhil
                    An example of this is modern stadiums, which are called one on one

                    Bad comparison. The stadium is being built according to the rules of the competitions that will be held there.
                    For example, shooting ranges are built with the direction of fire to the northeast, so that the targets are illuminated by the sun, and the shooters suffer less from the heat.
                    1. +1
                      4 July 2024 06: 37
                      Bad comparison. The stadium is being built according to the rules of the competitions that will be held there.

                      From what?
                      You can always compare that handsome *Wembley* that was with the current one, those *Luzhniki* with the current ones. And the same *Allianzarena*?
                      That’s exactly what’s wrong, and design competitions and project competitions are everywhere except in the Russian Federation.

                      In the Russian Federation there are also competitions, but only those who are supposed to win win them. No?
                      1. +1
                        4 July 2024 21: 42
                        Quote: ArchiPhil
                        There are also competitions, only those who win them are

                        Let me note that for a designer or architect, “observation” of masterpieces is extremely necessary. And here Russian students are in overdrive - and there is a “black mark” in the form of Russian citizenship, and there is less money, and there is a problem with languages. And those born in Italy grow up among masterpieces, but far from the snow. Therefore, they already have some preferences based on luck with their place of birth.
                2. +2
                  4 July 2024 09: 56
                  Seven Stalinist high-rise buildings were placed in places of power and formed the architectural framework of the city

                  They not only formed, but with their stylization of the Kremlin towers, the tents of which, in turn, repeated the image of St. Basil's Cathedral, they created a unified Moscow style. Unlike the modern Moscow style, ala vinaigrette
                  1. +2
                    4 July 2024 12: 01
                    . created a unified Moscow style.

                    Well said!
                    It turns out that St. Basil's Cathedral is the starting point. And complaints that foreigners were invited to design and build the Kremlin do not stand up to criticism. We were invited because new construction technologies and design methods were required, which we did not have available at that time, but were necessary. So why not use advanced skills while maintaining the traditional architectural appearance of the city.
                    And what now?
                    And now it’s like this: “Oh, in the West and in China they build high-rise buildings? Well, let’s put something like this where the land is more expensive!” And they stick it in. And we don’t give a damn about the self-awareness of Russians as a nation, which is formed, among other things, by historical architectural monuments! And everything gets blurred.
                    1. +2
                      4 July 2024 12: 26
                      And complaints that foreigners were invited to design and build the Kremlin do not stand up to criticism. We were invited because new construction technologies and design methods were required, which we did not have available at that time, but were needed.


                      Of course, the Kremlin was built on the model of the Sforza Castle in Milan, at that time the most advanced fortification. And under Princess Sophia, tiled tents were built on the towers, thanks to which it acquired an original appearance, and before that there were just “standard” towers and walls like in Milan. Sophia had a sense of taste... And Stalin too, with high-rise buildings and ruby ​​stars. But the Palace of the Soviets and the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in the Art Nouveau style stood out from the general harmony of the Russian style. But the temple was demolished not because of this, but because the foundation floated and it began to collapse.
                      .
            2. +1
              3 July 2024 08: 43
              They are all crooks.

              Strong. But truthful. What is called the flesh of the flesh of mature Putinism.
            3. +1
              3 July 2024 08: 50
              Heat

              Well, darling, it’s summer after all! Don’t worry, it won’t last long. laughing
              strong magnetic storm,

              I didn’t give a damn about her / just like she doesn’t care about me! /.
              take care of yourself!

              But this, my dear, is mutual. And the same to you!
              1. +1
                3 July 2024 08: 52
                . Same to you!

                Don't forget to wear your helmet!
                Until the evening!
                1. +2
                  3 July 2024 08: 58
                  Don't forget to wear your helmet!

                  Well, it’s hot. Let the *commissions from the headquarters* dress them. They love to show off, tramps! laughing
  21. +4
    2 July 2024 22: 56
    put the planks in a duffel bag and did not tell anyone about them for a long time.

    35 planks (38 cm long, 22 cm wide and 6-10 cm thick)
    ,, if these are the dimensions of one plank, then how did he carry this woodpile with him?
    1. +3
      2 July 2024 23: 19
      Quote: bubalik
      if this is the size of one plank, then how did he carry this woodpile with him?

      He moaned, squeaked, but drove! laughing
    2. +4
      3 July 2024 06: 30
      The thickness of the board is 0,5 cm. This is practically no longer a woodpile, but a stack of about 20 cm
      1. +2
        5 July 2024 20: 26
        The thickness of the board is 0,5 cm. This is practically no longer a woodpile, but a stack of about 20 cm

        I carried it in a backpack! Moreover, all the time! laughing
    3. +4
      3 July 2024 08: 27
      if this is the size of one plank, then how did he carry this woodpile with him?
      Reply
      Quote

      380x220x60-100 mm. Overall size of the *item*. It’s quite possible not only to carry it, but also to wear it. bully
  22. +3
    3 July 2024 08: 31
    Quote from cpls22
    This is a whole “cubic meter” of firewood! What kind of “duffel bag” will this fit into? How can this be hidden without avoiding questions? Forgive me for the disgusting meticulousness, it can be awkward for me, but most likely these texts appeared already in exile, and not immediately, accompanied by long days of forced inaction, lack of demand, endless conversations with fellow sufferers about the fate of the Motherland in the past and future, attempts to crystallize in words Russian character, subjected to dissolution in the caustic environment of forced emigration... And only then there was an attempt at hoax.


    6-10 cm is the thickness of not the board, but the entire stack. Where does the "cubic meter" come from then?
    If this is a deliberate and gross falsification at a later date, then a reasonable question arises: why are the texts written on tablets? Wouldn't it be easier to use birch bark or some kind of parchment, specially processed?
    How typical was it for our ancestors to write on tablets? If you fake it, you try to stick to the style to make it more believable.
    Let me note right away that I have no doubt that the “Vlesova Book” is a falsification. But the counterfeit is quite old, perhaps several hundred years old. And there are clearly not enough reasons to blame Izenbek or Mirolyubov for the forgery. We found interesting material that we became interested in, a completely natural behavior.

    Since the Middle Ages, maybe even earlier, the forgery of historical documents has really flourished. But, as a rule, counterfeits were made for a reason. In most cases - for the sake of elementary profit, sometimes even to achieve political goals ("Gift of Constantine", "Testament of Peter the Great", etc.).

    But what benefit did the above “discoverers” derive from these tablets? Have you gotten very rich? Or was it somehow used for the needs of political or religious propaganda?
    Apart from very dubious fame - no profit.

    And who made these fakes and why, I’m afraid we won’t find out. Although it would be interesting to know, he (they) are clearly extraordinary...
  23. +2
    4 July 2024 16: 09
    (Actually, the Scythians are an Iranian-speaking people).
    And who was it that talked to the Scythians that determined their Iranian identity?
  24. 0
    6 July 2024 17: 59
    Well then, “The Tale of Igor’s Campaign” is a fake. The history of the discovery is vague, the original is lost, and many of the words are uncharacteristic. There is only one thing that saves it: the literary value of the work, which is enormous.
    The literary value of the “Veleslav Book” is also considerable, in my personal opinion. The difference is that the “Word” was immediately recognized by all the authorities of that time, but the “Book” was unlucky with this: the White Guards, Nazi collaborators, an initially biased attitude............ ......
  25. 0
    7 July 2024 07: 34
    It is very interesting that the propaganda of Slavic neo-paganism is cultivated in the West and is presented to us from the West as our own. Switzerland has been especially successful in this. Where a whole university is doing this.
  26. +1
    7 July 2024 16: 39
    I read somewhere that the Chinese have a version of the origin of the Slavs from Semirechye. Usuni supposedly.
    The version does not inspire confidence.
    Veles's book even more so.
    Auto RU. No 7 rivers flow into Balkhash. The name is figurative.
    There are hundreds of rivers in the territory of the former Semirechensk region, of which 4 are quite noticeable. Naryn (Syr Darya), Sary-Jaz (Tarim), Ili and Chu. Karatal can also be added to the four rivers.
    1. 0
      7 July 2024 19: 16
      Babylon. (After the destruction of the tower) What Nestor wrote about. He copied our early history from Roman chronicles.
  27. 0
    7 July 2024 19: 13
    By the way, I am a leader. Therefore, I will say that the author is not only right, but has a good understanding of history. Before Nestor, history was not written down. Only in fairy tales and songs were glorified certain heroes who appeared in those days. Birch bark was used more rhetorically for calculations and recording of debts. Read Nestor. And links to the Roman chronicle. (The chronicle itself burned down in Moscow)