Front edge smoothbore: shotguns for use in air defense

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Front edge smoothbore: shotguns for use in air defense
Attack FPV UAVs have become the main problem of the Russian troops and one of the main problems of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. In the photo - Russian-made Ghoul UAV


Mass distribution of the so-called. FPV-drones (FPV-UAV) led to a request from troops for a means to defeat them.



Electronic warfare systems, as has been repeatedly predicted, have limited effectiveness, as a result of which the troops have an urgent need for smooth-bore weapons - shotguns.

There is nothing special about the use of smoothbore weapons by troops; even during the Vietnam War, the US Armed Forces used such weapons even in battle, and even now they are widely used as special equipment.

The Russian Armed Forces have an extremely pressing issue of protecting troops from small attack FPV-UAVs. An average shooter can actually shoot down a flying small unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) with a shotgun.


American soldiers train to use shotguns, in this case a Mossberg 590A1

Practice shows that despite the limited capabilities of smooth-bore weapons, they provide some protection against UAVs at low altitudes (exactly where FPVs fly), and therefore it makes sense to draw up a number of recommendations for the selection and use of these weapons that could be useful in the troops.

This article should not be understood as an advertisement for shotguns as a universal means against small UAVs, this is not true, the main pressure is needed in another direction, but shotguns are suitable as a means of last chance.

An example of shooting from a smoothbore gun at an FPV-UAV on video here to register:.

This issue was previously raised in "Military Review" in the article by Andrey Mitrofanov “50 shotguns per year for the Russian Army. Why the problem of FPV kamikaze drones needs to be solved now".

Now it is necessary to bring the issue down to earth, completely analyzing it from a technical point of view and partly from an organizational one.

First the technical part.

Ammunition


Due to the small size and high speed of the target, it is almost impossible to hit it with a bullet; ammunition with dispersion of damaging elements is required. Buckshot has too large striking elements (buckshots, of which there are too few in the cartridge), so the cartridge must be shot.

Small shot may not destroy the FPV, but large shot has the same problem as buckshot; there are few large shot in the cartridge, so you should try to use cartridges with shot 2–5 (shot diameter 3–3,75). This doesn't mean others aren't suitable, just that the range of numbers listed is likely to be the best.

By caliber - the best option is 12 gauge (18,5 mm). Such cartridges have maximum lethality and contain more pellets than all others.

Weapon Selection


Since the Ministry of Defense almost never supplies smoothbore guns to the army (there was information about a large one-time purchase and that’s it), and guns are purchased either by the fighters themselves or with the help of sponsors, the buyer has the opportunity to make a choice. Accordingly, recommendations for selecting a smoothbore gun make sense.

Let's determine the contours of the optimal gun for protection against FPV-UAVs.

By barrel type.

There are both cylindrical barrels and barrels with choke constrictions. The issue of choke constrictions is discussed in detail in the article “Choke constrictions (choke, pay, paradox, etc.)”, the following is clear from it.

As the muzzle narrowing increases, the accuracy of shooting using shot and buckshot increases.


Illustration of the increase in accuracy with increasing choke constriction. It must be remembered that after a certain point the applicability of certain shot sizes decreases

This suggests that shotguns with cylindrical barrels are less suitable for FPV protection than those with choke tubes.

The muzzle constriction should not be too large, as the efficiency of shooting large shot will deteriorate.

The best choice for shooting at UAVs is the “choke” muzzle constriction.

If a unit has a gun with a cylindrical barrel at its disposal, then, if possible, it must be equipped with a choke attachment.

Important! According to Russian legislation, this action is prohibited, the State Duma the latest amendments to the law on weapons prohibited citizens from carrying out such modifications themselves, therefore, in the rear, the gun that ends up in the fighter’s possession must be hidden. The chances that a modified gun will cause problems with the law are minimal, but it is better to worry about this in advance.

Along the length of the trunk.

For shooting at small air targets, a long barrel is better suited. The shorter the barrel length, the lower the accuracy, the greater the scattering of the shot. However, the longer the barrel, the harder the gun is to turn, the less maneuverable it is, and the harder it is physically to carry. However, when repelling an FPV strike in an open area, the probability of hitting the target will be critical, and therefore you need to take the longest possible barrel, 710–750 mm, depending on the model of the gun.
We can also talk about the minimum length: 610–660 mm is the minimum. With a shorter barrel length, the accuracy of shot fire will be unsatisfactory, however, short barrels are cylindrical.
The question of which barrel length is preferable in street fighting, for example from behind buildings, and in other cramped conditions, requires additional experimental verification.

Along the length of the chamber.

Based on the length of the chamber, you definitely need to choose 76 mm, since it can also fire shorter cartridges, but the opposite is not true. But if only guns with 70mm chambers are available, then this is perfectly acceptable.

By sighting devices.

The database includes guns with a conventional open sight (front and rear sight) or a front sight and a rib.

Shotguns with long barrels and choke always have a front sight and rib. It should be recognized that this is exactly what is optimal for shooting at air targets.

The question of using various types of collimator sights on UAVs requires a separate study; if when firing from a machine gun, the collimator immediately increases the shooting accuracy by at least a third, then with smooth-bore weapons and the need to shoot offhand at a short distance, there is no such clarity.

Night sights are definitely needed for protection against UAVs at night, but equipping guns with them also requires special modifications in the workshop, which most often will not be possible.

By type of store.

Shotguns with both tubular under-barrel and detachable box magazines are available for sale.

Shotguns with detachable magazines (Saiga, Vepr) have a short cylindrical barrel, and therefore cannot be selected.

Nevertheless, we need to clarify the issue with the store in more detail.

The tubular magazine has two properties that make it superior to the detachable box magazine.

First, the tubular magazine makes it possible to add cartridges to it between shots.

Secondly, it cannot be lost.

Box magazines for 12-gauge shotguns are very large, bulky, and require large pouches for carrying.

It is impossible to “throw” a cartridge into a box magazine.

The video below shows high-speed charging/recharging of a tubular magazine.


From experience, a good shooter spends 1–3 rounds on an FPV UAV.

The standard capacity of a tubular magazine is 4 rounds; in addition, the design of any gun allows it to be loaded according to the scheme: 1 in the chamber +4 in the magazine.

This means that even with a standard gun, the magazine capacity allows you to shoot down on average two UAVs without reloading.

This store capacity can be considered minimally sufficient. Since reloading a gun with a tubular magazine during shooting is faster than changing the magazine of a gun with a box magazine, you need to choose a tubular magazine.


A Russian Vepr-12K smoothbore carbine is carried by a member of a French police unit. The dimensions of the 8-round magazine and how it holds cartridges are visible. This is not the best option in the field.

According to the recharging method.

Among the shotguns with a tubular magazine you can find both semi-automatic shotguns and shotguns with manual reloading, the so-called. "pump action"

The latter are distinguished by their lighter weight than semi-automatic weapons and their insensitivity to the type of cartridge - a misfired cartridge is ejected instantly by the movement of the fore-end.

However, the disadvantage of the “pump” is the requirements for the shooter - it takes longer to train him to use the “pump”.

Therefore, you should choose a semi-automatic machine, leaving the “pumps” to those professionals who, by their training, are able to reveal their potential.

By butt type.

The type of stock matters much more than you might think - a shooter with a classic stock with a classic stock will be ready to shoot a little faster than a shooter with a pistol grip and a folding stock.

The advantages of a pistol grip in the form of a faster transition to shooting from the other shoulder in the fight against UAVs are not particularly important, and an average shooter cannot realize them.

Thus, our gun is a long-barreled 12-gauge semi-automatic with a tubular magazine, a “choke” narrowing of the barrel, a 76-mm chamber, an aiming rib and a classic butt without a pistol grip. Of the modifications for such a gun, only mounts for an optical (night) sight and a magazine extension for 1 cartridge make sense.

Such a gun is less familiar to fighters than the AK-like “Saiga” and “Vepri”, and you will have to specially retrain for it, but it is more effective, and much more so.

Shooter training


A shooter can acquire basic skills in shooting a gun at a moving target by shooting at clay pigeons, however, to develop all the necessary shooting techniques, one should also shoot at “training” (not carrying a combat charge) FPV-UAVs, aimed both at the shooter himself and at another goal.

Naturally, for a unit that received smoothbore rifles already at the front line, all this will be inaccessible.

Therefore, the minimum training should include well-thought-out written instructions and, if phones, tablets or computers are available, instructional videos.

Organizational part.

It is necessary that in any unit operating in open areas there should be approximately one trained shooter with a smooth-bore weapon for every four soldiers performing other tasks.

Such a shooter in an offensive must carry ammunition at the rate of twenty rounds for each person in the protected group of the unit.


A Russian soldier with a Vepr-12 smoothbore carbine in the Northern Military District zone

For example, an assault group based on half a platoon of two reduced strength squads of 5 people each, a commander and a couple of fighters subordinate directly to him, a total of 13 people, must have at least 3 fighters with a “smooth bore”, who must have at least 260 rounds of ammunition between three people.

At the same time, you need to carefully weigh what kind of weapons these fighters will have to carry - heavy and large guns, if along with them you also carry standard machine guns and interchangeable magazines for them, but the fighter can be very significantly loaded.

On the other hand, smooth-bore rifles are almost unusable in battle against enemy infantry, and if a fighter with a “smooth” finds himself against an enemy infantryman with a machine gun, he is most likely doomed.

To determine the optimal composition of weapons for a fighter with a smooth-bore weapon, experimental exercises are needed. Foreign experience will not help here; in the USA, for example, close combat practices deny the very possibility of using soldiers with smooth-bore weapons in battle, but for example, in the British Armed Forces such things are done, including in a combat situation.

In addition, foreign forces did not have to act against the FPV. We will have to work out everything ourselves.

Fighters need means for carrying 12-gauge cartridges that allow them to quickly reload the gun when firing, in between shots, and that do not interfere with crawling; damage to the cartridges when stowed when crawling must be prevented, and fighters must remember that 12-gauge cartridges caliber are very vulnerable to mechanical impact.


An example of a pouch for a machine gun magazine and 12-gauge cartridges with MOLLE suspension. The plus is the ability to quickly snatch the cartridges, the minus is the vulnerability of the cartridges when crawling and falling to the ground.


Pouches for 12 gauge cartridges. The cartridges protect well, but it is more difficult to quickly grab a cartridge for reloading.

It is impossible to combine the position of a shooter with a smooth-bore weapon and an operator of portable RTR and REP devices designed for early detection of UAVs and suppression of radio channels for their control and broadcast of television images.

Challenge for the near future


Two guns are produced in Russia that are suitable for protection against FPV-UAVs with virtually no modifications; we are talking about the MP-155 and Bekas-12M Auto guns. The Department of Defense should accept these guns into service with long barrels, and also obtain permission to purchase their foreign counterparts. Also, a shot cartridge for a smoothbore shotgun of 18,5 mm caliber should be adopted.


Shotgun MP-155 Izhevsk Mechanical Plant


Shotgun "Bekas"-12M from the Molot automobile plant

Immediately after this, such weapons should begin to be purchased for the troops at the rate of at least 3 guns for each platoon deployed on the line of combat contact, with the prospect of three guns for any warring platoon, and then one per artillery crew.

Perhaps the Ministry of Defense could take the example of the Russian Guard, where in service consists of the SSK-18,5 rifle complex consisting of a smooth-bore carbine KS-P (military shotgun MP-153 with an extended magazine and a folding butt) and a smooth-bore carbine KS-K (military "Saiga-12K"), both caliber 18,5 mm (12 gauge). This, however, is not what is needed.

Among soldiers, you can find opinions that shotguns are becoming more important than machine guns, since you still have to somehow survive before meeting the enemy in close combat, and FPV-UAVs are here.

This is not entirely true, but it is obvious that the saturation of units on the front line with smooth-bore weapons needs to be sharply increased. For now, the Ministry of Defense is still just moving forward in this direction, which means private sponsors and volunteers will have to deal with the guns. Fortunately, the Ministry of Defense has developed mechanisms for supplying shotguns from individuals and charitable organizations to military units. I hope this article will be useful for those who are already organizing these deliveries.
174 comments
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  1. +4
    1 July 2024 05: 19
    There are already a lot of videos of UAVs either shooting with double-barreled guns or shooting with pumps, which would have given out normal self-loading ones with collimators.
  2. +6
    1 July 2024 05: 27
    in Kemerovo, volunteers developed an insert for a 12 gauge grenade launcher.
    1. +1
      1 July 2024 08: 04
      Quote: Gagrid
      in Kemerovo, volunteers developed an insert for a 12 gauge grenade launcher.

      This is bullshit!
      1. +1
        1 July 2024 08: 33
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        This is bullshit!

        And hunting rifles are also not ice. You need a light, reliable, possibly revolver-type gun, with a scope. This is a task for designers. Cartridges with buckshot and tourniquets are already being produced. hi
        1. +5
          1 July 2024 10: 39
          Quote: fif21
          And hunting rifles are also not ice. You need a light, reliable, possibly revolver-type gun, with a scope. This is a task for designers. Cartridges with buckshot and tourniquets are already being produced.

          There is already a Vepr-12 with a 10-round magazine.
          1. +2
            1 July 2024 11: 35
            Quote: Lt. air force reserve
            There is already a Vepr-12 with a 10-round magazine.

            It's time for LBS. ! hi
        2. +8
          1 July 2024 12: 08
          //Yes, and hunting rifles, this is also not ice. You need a light, reliable, possibly revolver-type gun, with a scope. This is a task for designers. Cartridges with buckshot and tourniquets are already being produced //

          I’m certainly not an expert, but in my opinion it would be more effective to use powerful laser flashlights with a strobe function.
          No need to aim. It is enough to point the flashlight approximately at the drone and the laser beam in strobe mode will be guaranteed to hit the drone’s camera lens several times per second. Creating highlights and glare.
          Depending on the power of the flashlight, you can achieve complete loss of image from the drone.
          The flashlight is several times lighter and cheaper than a gun. It does not require time or expense to master, unlike a gun.
          Dial on ozone:
          A flashlight with a strobe function and you can take it)
          1. 0
            1 July 2024 12: 13
            Quote: SergeyB
            I'm certainly not an expert,

            I am also not an expert in the field of laser physics and electronic warfare. If such a thing exists, field tests need to be carried out. "Royal Wolves" Ragozin, to help you. hi
          2. +4
            1 July 2024 15: 43
            I agree with both hands. It is this idea that I have repeatedly described at VO. In addition, you can assemble a device that continuously scans the surrounding space with lasers of limited power (without pointing) and blinds the optics.
          3. +1
            2 July 2024 10: 08
            What if you combine a laser strobe light and a gun?
            At the same time, we illuminate the drone’s camera and can shoot it down.
            If you simply illuminate the camera, then sooner or later the operators will learn to evade, change the direction of flight, etc.
          4. +2
            2 July 2024 14: 25
            The laser shines at one wavelength. Therefore, if we start shining a red laser en masse, the enemy will put a blue piece of glass on the camera, and somehow he will orient himself. But physical destruction cannot be repelled with shot
      2. -1
        2 July 2024 02: 02
        and you can fight off fpv with a sapper shovel. I think you can do it
    2. 0
      10 July 2024 09: 42
      It’s short and heavy, and it’s hard to shoot at a duck with aiming machine guns.
  3. +2
    1 July 2024 05: 29
    the taste and color, in my opinion, is better than saiga or boar, why take large magazines, regular “fives” will suffice
    1. +4
      1 July 2024 07: 07
      The boar is lying around at home, very bulky and heavy, and I don’t understand how it is better than the saiga, that it’s worth pulling such an advantage, and if you put a tambourine, it will add even more.
      I think a saiga with a long barrel, tambourine handle and collimator would ideally increase its rate of fire technically so that it can hit in bursts.
    2. +1
      1 July 2024 09: 38
      The barrel is not suitable, both in length and in narrowing, although of course you can shoot from them, see the photo on the splash screen
      1. +5
        1 July 2024 11: 14
        Saiga-12s - barrel length is 680mm, the constrictions are regulated by barrel attachments that are sold in hunting stores, no handicraft alterations.... hi
        Apparently you’re not a hunter, or you haven’t dealt with saigas
        1. -1
          1 July 2024 12: 05
          This one will go down the trunk, yes.
          For everything else it’s not a fact
          1. +2
            1 July 2024 13: 11
            VPO (Vepri 12 gauge) are very different.
            There is VPO-205-01 12x76 L=570 (barrel length 57 cm), there is even VPO-205-02 12x76 L=680 (68 cm).
            In addition, there are standard extension cords that work perfectly (I use them myself).
            As for reloading - 2-3 magazines for 10 rounds closes the issue and you can reload them extremely quickly.
            The main problem seems to be mass. It's really a heavy thing.
            1. +1
              1 July 2024 13: 14
              The main problem is recharging.
              You bring down 4 drones (Madyar’s consumption rate is 5 per person), and you need to change the magazine.
              On a tubular magazine, after shooting two cartridges, you throw in two more.
              1. +2
                1 July 2024 15: 18
                Changing a magazine for a trained person is 1.5-2 seconds.
                Not to be unfounded - video of recharging. Three magazines in 5 seconds.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b-T78moUvE

                Yes, more than one store is needed. But if it’s not a magazine, you still need to carry a bandoleer.
                1. +3
                  1 July 2024 19: 04
                  There is no normal butt, no sighting bar. There are classics for shooting in the air, and you don’t have to invent anything. The stores are overweight, they need peeling to work properly. Automatic is not a virtue if it is a Beneli M4. The only advantage of the galoshoid is that it is more familiar to those who have never held a gun in their hands.
                2. +1
                  1 July 2024 19: 46
                  Changing a magazine for a trained person is 1.5-2 seconds.
                  Not to be unfounded - video of recharging. Three magazines in 5 seconds.
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b-T78moUvE

                  Yes, more than one store is needed. But if it’s not a magazine, you still need to carry a bandoleer.
                  Reply
                  + + + + +
                  DV is not a problem at all... only when they are still rushing at you, but the machine gun does not allow you to raise your head, and if it rolls away, there is someone with SVD.
                  What I mean is that, choose a time, it can be longer than a couple of seconds or a minute.
                  Well, yes. Maybe in a couple of seconds you can...
                  Continue playing cs.
                3. +3
                  2 July 2024 10: 22
                  Shotguns converted from machine guns have poor balance, which is very important when shooting sideways at a flying target.
                  1. 0
                    10 July 2024 09: 46
                    This is because Kalashmatchi guns do not move on a round stand. Then you would feel the difference in the long bar and in the weight and in the convenience of recharging.
      2. +1
        1 July 2024 15: 22
        As far as I understand, the attachments increase the range and accuracy by reducing spread, whether this is good or not, I don’t know at a distance of 100 meters, of course it’s convenient, but when closer to 50-30 meters, maybe higher accuracy will be better to increase the chances of hitting.
        1. 0
          6 July 2024 08: 32
          Only special shotguns can throw shot at 100 meters. They are as long as a musket.
      3. +1
        2 July 2024 15: 23
        Is this a short barrel? Is this a normal meter then?
        1. +1
          2 July 2024 15: 25
          This is my big, uncomfortable machine gun.
  4. +9
    1 July 2024 05: 39
    as a result of which there was an urgent need among the troops for smooth-bore weapons - shotguns
    In fact, fighting small drones with a smoothbore is just a necessary measure. Many, many scientists and engineers are probably wondering how to deal with them, but, unfortunately, we don’t see any results yet. This happened before, when they didn’t know how to shoot down an airship and when they fled in all directions from the first tanks. They will find something to counter this too
    1. +1
      2 July 2024 14: 43
      The best countermeasure is when three of ours fly towards the enemy. One shoots down the enemy, and the other two fly towards the enemy drone operator. We don't shoot down enemy shells, we try to bomb enemy artillery
  5. +8
    1 July 2024 05: 47
    I’m personally ready to donate my Saiga-12s to the front, the only question is the decision, there will be a cry, I’ll take it right away, I’ll buy a double-barreled shotgun from some grandfather in return, I’ll note that the density of grapeshot fire exceeds the density of fire from a machine gun, for attack aircraft this is a huge plus am
    1. +10
      1 July 2024 05: 52
      five points, the Russian Guard can also look at the confiscation of the bottom of the barrel
    2. +8
      1 July 2024 08: 39
      I will support! I will give my Turkish ATA Arms Pegasus to the front, 5+1, weight without cartridges 2 kg, just organize the process! And yes, Russian Guard, leave the experience of owning such a semi-automatic machine, otherwise, according to current laws, I will have to start again with two
      twolks start at 5 years old.
      1. +1
        1 July 2024 10: 48
        5 years of smoothbore ownership is required only to purchase rifled weapons. From the point of view of the Russian Guard, the Turkish Pegasus and the double-barreled gun are one and the same.
        1. +5
          1 July 2024 11: 44
          From the point of view of the Russian Guard, the Turkish Pegasus and a double-barreled shotgun are one and the same.
          aldeady no.
          To own the 5th charge, you now need 2 years of owning a double-barreled shotgun - the ZOO has changed
    3. -1
      1 July 2024 11: 42
      I note that the density of grapeshot fire exceeds the density of fire from a machine gun, for attack aircraft this is a huge plus am

      even the cops rag body armor holds hunting shot from 5 meters.
      Are you proposing to shoot it at enemy army armored vehicles? The ones that hold a machine gun bullet?
      And the firing range of which is a maximum of 50 meters.
      Well, what, huh? Please the enemy, yeah, yeah.
      1. +2
        1 July 2024 12: 41
        At pistol range, hit the head or legs with buckshot, and hit the body with a bullet.
        1. -1
          1 July 2024 13: 00
          At pistol range, hit the head or legs with buckshot, and hit the body with a bullet. he will use a machine gun to make a sieve out of you - until you reach him on pistol the distance
          And yes, shooting with a bullet excludes shooting at drones. You will have to recharge here and there. If it’s an under-barrel magazine, it takes a long time to pull out the cartridges one by one
          1. +1
            1 July 2024 16: 51
            I have a problem too, I’ll turn off the magazine and put a cartridge with buckshot or a bullet into the chamber and release it into your fucking or groin. If it’s about the body, it will take a long time before you start to think, even in armored armor.
      2. +1
        1 July 2024 16: 07
        Quote: your1970
        even cop rag bulletproof vests can hold hunting shot from 5 meters.

        Have you ever been hit by shotgun pellets in your vest from 5 meters away?
        For such barrels there is a Blondeau bullet. In its original version it is made of steel. I think it won’t penetrate the vest, but it’s very easy to spit out the spine
        1. -1
          1 July 2024 17: 25
          Have you ever been hit by shotgun pellets in your vest from 5 meters away?
          For such barrels there is a Blondeau bullet


          and I’ll repeat for you: it’s either buckshot or a bullet - it’s inconvenient to reload. That is, the main task - drones - after reloading with bullets, will no longer be necessary.
          And yes, the shot will be very painful and unpleasant - closer than 35 meters, an automatic bullet will pierce the body armor along with the person BEFORE such a distance
          1. 0
            2 July 2024 08: 13
            Quote: your1970
            and I’ll repeat for you: it’s either buckshot or a bullet - it’s inconvenient to reload.

            If you are going for security and escort, of course, buckshot. And if for an assault, a bullet is possible, although in close combat there will be enough buckshot for your eyes. From 30 meters, even hitting the armor with buckshot will lead to 120% injury to internal organs
            1. +1
              2 July 2024 08: 48
              although in close combat the buckshot will be enough for your eyes. From 30 meters, even hitting the armor plate with buckshot will lead to 120% injury to internal organs at 70 meters on a goose, if it’s under the feather, you’ll kill it, if it’s against it, then it won’t.
              A hare with 3 buckshot in its side ran more than a kilometer before dying - it was a sieve and not a hare when they found it, the rest passed right through.
              So here too, yes, it will be painful, but not fatal, they will have enough strength to shoot back at point-blank range and a machine gun. And then you are a guaranteed dead man.
              Buckshot was effective in the trenches of WWII and WWII - when there were no armored vehicles
      3. 0
        2 July 2024 15: 52
        Attach a magazine with bullets or large buckshot to the Saiga 12, a pair of three seconds instead of a shot, you will still get to the Banderaites, the Ukrainians do not spare up to 10 drones for each fighter...
        I’m for a shotgun, a shot in a trench with buckshot is good, but you should have seen how 12 gauge bends class 5 armor, and class 3 armor sews through, there you can lean back from the shock of pain am
        1. 0
          2 July 2024 17: 09
          Quote: air wolf
          you'll still get to Bandera's followers,

          Quote: air wolf
          I'm for a shotgun

          you write about first complexity get there and immediately joyfully talk about weapons at a distance of “50 meters”
          1. 0
            2 July 2024 18: 09
            In any case, now they work in pairs, maximum of three, one should have a shotgun, a couple of flies and a Stechkin, another machine gun, a third ak, ammunition for the machine gun, something like this, and the squad is already an attack unit now, there is an infantry fighting vehicle included in the kit , or armored personnel carrier.
      4. 0
        10 July 2024 09: 48
        Yes, he’s holding the armor, but is the soul behind it? And the enemy in the trench is not in Altyn.
    4. 0
      1 July 2024 21: 48
      And I will add attachments for choke and pay and recess.
  6. +7
    1 July 2024 06: 05
    Very useful article, thank you, Alexander. Shotguns can really dramatically reduce the effectiveness of Drones. Practice will tell.
  7. +9
    1 July 2024 06: 17
    I don’t know if the respected author has experience in “using” a smoothbore against birds, but in my opinion, some of his conclusions are very controversial.
    A smoothbore at the front end is definitely necessary at the moment. It’s not for nothing that his soldiers order it to volunteers with tears.
    Thus, our gun is a long-barreled 12-gauge semi-automatic with a tubular magazine

    The most dubious moment. There are more minuses than pluses. A fighter using such a weapon must have certain physical qualities. First of all, long arms. The location of the center of mass in front leads to a large inertia of the weapon when aiming. The reloading speed is extremely questionable compared to a regular magazine; you can’t finish shooting it until it’s “melted”, but simply change it to a full one.
    "Vepr-12" in my opinion is a more successful option, but with the necessary modifications.
    1. Solid aiming bar (the author has already noted it as the best option, with which he completely agrees). We didn’t bother with the basic model, because... the aiming line is quite high, they just left the AKA front sight with the rear sight. What is the problem with making a continuous, elevated ventilated one?
    2. The magazine mount is unreliable (at least on early models), with a tendency to come loose. It is necessary to “finish” and limit the capacity to 5 cartridges.
    The type of stock matters much more than you might think - a shooter who has a classic stock with a classic stock will be ready to shoot a little faster, than a shooter with a pistol grip and a folding stock.

    It doesn't matter. You know how to shoot, you quickly get used to it. 50-100 shots will be enough.
    Night sights are definitely needed for protection against UAVs at night, but equipping guns with them also requires special modifications in the workshop, which most often will not be possible.

    Not feasible, although on the “Vepr” and “Saiga” you can attach any sight to the original “dovetail”. A smoothbore with a powerful cartridge (and this is what they will use) has a very high recoil impulse. Even ordinary optics, which “blow your head off,” don’t “live” for a long time, not to mention Chinese thermal collimators (and where is China with them? I’ll modestly keep silent about ours.).
    if a fighter with a “smooth” finds himself against an enemy infantryman with a machine gun, then he is most likely doomed.

    A couple of magazines (hello quick change of magazine and type of ammunition) with cubic tungsten buckshot can give a fighter at least some chance. In the West there were even 12-gauge grenades, but that was in the West. Let’s keep silent about domestic small-sized submachine guns.
    Such a shooter in an offensive must carry ammunition at the rate of twenty rounds for each person in the protected group of the unit.

    In my opinion, 100 rounds of ammunition is too much, but combat experience will put everything in its place.
    Something like this request hi
    1. KCA
      +1
      1 July 2024 06: 31
      Among the fighters there may very well be hunters who can easily shoot a drone from 20 meters with two guns, oh, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, my father had an urgent stay in Kazakhstan, was a member of a military hunting society and kept a gun in an armory and knife, went hunting on leave
      1. -2
        1 July 2024 11: 48
        can easily pick up a drone from 20 meters - this is already close - if the drone explodes, it may hit the shooter
        1. KCA
          +2
          1 July 2024 12: 11
          Is warhead detonation necessary if you cut down a drone with buckshot? 20m is never too small, the UAV has a nuclear charge of not 200kT, which will not detonate in any way
          1. 0
            1 July 2024 12: 17
            Grenade fragments fly 20 meters easily. An air blast will increase the affected area.
            Do you guarantee that the drone will fall with the ammunition fuse down?
            1. KCA
              0
              1 July 2024 12: 34
              Theoretically, the spread of F-1 fragments is 300m, but how realistic? Isn't it crazy? Beyond 30m the fragments fall like winter crops
              1. +1
                1 July 2024 18: 00
                Theoretically, the spread of F-1 fragments is 300m, but how realistic?


                At one time I read an excellent article on this topic. I really hope to find it, because this nonsense about 200-300 meters has been wandering around the Internet for several decades as an axiom.

                The article completely dismantled this myth using formulas and performance characteristics of the grenade. Just visually imagine what the “density” of fragments will be at such a distance? Despite the fact that the grenade scatters in all directions. Those. maximum works in the affected area! (in the most ideal case!) 50% of the grenade body. At a distance of 200 meters, the circle of expansion along L = 2πR is ~ 1 km 300 meters. And for this length there will be 5-10 fragments. which I can reach using my kinetic energy.

                Those. To be wounded by such a fragment, you have to be an epic loser.
                1. -1
                  1 July 2024 22: 13
                  Quote: Height76
                  Those. To be wounded by such a fragment, you have to be an epic loser.

                  During the shooting with 2S3, they hit the tower almost point blank. The shell went through the first brick wall, then the second brick wall, then flew 40m from the tower and exploded. Our battalion commander was wounded by shrapnel through the second breach in the wall.
                  Is he epically lucky - because the shell did NOT smear him across the walls, or epically unlucky - because the fragment flew back into the hole less than a meter away?

                  and yes - about F1. 200m - zone the possible damage from shrapnel.
                2. KCA
                  0
                  3 July 2024 09: 31
                  Do you need me to scan the book manual on NVP 50 Shaggy Year? It was clearly written there that the scattering of F-1 fragments is up to 300m, RGD-5 up to 20m, but this does not mean that they all fly to such a range, the book is still preserved
                  1. 0
                    3 July 2024 09: 38
                    Do you see for yourself that this is nonsense? For comparable grenades, the radius of expansion differs by an ORDER. It’s just that in the first case they forgot to write the maximum range, not the effective one. Either they stupidly added an extra 0 by accident, the proofreader did not notice or thought that it should be so. And now this error is presented as the ultimate truth, and similar military personnel are guided by it.

                    Above, I have already briefly described that at a distance of 300 meters, where not every bullet with normal aerodynamics and speed will reach (if we take the performance characteristics of the fragment, which is considered the standard in the development of SIBZ, then it becomes even sadder for this story about 300 meters), the circumference of the affected area will be almost 1,5 km. And for these 1,5 km. there will be 3-5 fragments that miraculously arrived at the end (and they should still have the ability to inflict injury). Those. a statistically small value that can be neglected rather than reported as an “effective impact”.
                    1. KCA
                      0
                      3 July 2024 09: 45
                      Even Rubeykin’s bullet easily flies at 300m and knocks the hell out of the animal, at least, have you seen this bullet? The glass is made of bronze, there is no aerodynamics, but there is a lethal effect, they say that if a person gets hit in any part of the body, he dies from painful shock
                      1. 0
                        3 July 2024 09: 48
                        Rubeykin's bullet - 32 gr. - a fragment of 1-3 g... to hell with it, let it be 10 g.. Do you feel the difference in kinetic energy? Or did you skip physics lessons at school?
                      2. KCA
                        0
                        3 July 2024 09: 55
                        I remember a little bit, but I can’t say for sure the speed of a smooth bullet and the speed of dispersion of fragments, but the energy is MC^2, the speed of dispersal of fragments probably decreases more with distance, there is no aerodynamics
                      3. 0
                        3 July 2024 10: 01
                        Let's take the performance characteristics of the F-1.

                        Total weight: 601 grams
                        UZRGM fuse: 55 grams
                        Explosive weight: 60 grams
                        Number of fragments: up to 300 pieces (you don’t think that those “pyramids” on the grenade body are fragments)

                        Based on this, we obtain the average weight of the fragment: (601 - 55 - 60)/300 = 1,62 grams. (if such a fragment can fly 300 meters, I will eat my hat
                    2. 0
                      6 July 2024 08: 39
                      If the F-1 accidentally breaks exactly in half, then the piece can fly 200 m and hit someone in the head. This is probably why it was written for such cases.
                      I can’t imagine this, but why not laugh?
              2. -1
                1 July 2024 22: 00
                Quote: KCA
                Theoretically, the spread of F-1 fragments is 300m, but how realistic? Isn't it crazy? Beyond 30m the fragments fall like winter crops

                I repeat - the discussion was not 300 or 30 meters away
                Quote: KCA
                20m never enough,

                Why are you increasing the distance you have indicated - from 20 m to 30?
      2. +1
        2 July 2024 07: 33
        Quote: KCA
        Among the fighters there may very well be hunters who can easily shoot a drone from 20 meters with two guns

        My friend and I sent a double-barreled shotgun to a friend near Kharkov (he strongly asked for it) and 500 rounds of ammunition. In principle, he will get farther.
    2. +6
      1 July 2024 09: 46
      The boar is simply heavy. I have one myself. And not very fast with a magazine capacity of 8. No matter how much we try with a friend at skeet, he and Murka always shoot me down. Although just at targets - we shoot about the same.

      Collimators when shooting offhand are from the evil one. It just gets in the way. Better - with a long sighting bar, like Murka's.

      Choke attachment - there can be unpleasant options when shooting containers. They may get jammed and will not open. And without them, you won’t get far with buckshot.

      Cartridges - in principle, containers can be trimmed to open at an approximate distance. Of course, this is quite conditional and depends on a lot, including the weight, but it’s possible. Plus some other shamanic movements. The only thing is that all this is done manually; factory cartridges of this kind are not produced. Well - or almost never produced.

      Thus, having a Murka with a magazine extension, you can throw 8 rounds. If two open at about 80-100 meters, two - 50-70, and the remaining ones are just in bulk, the approaching drone can be machine-gunned from a fairly decent distance. Thus, from a cloud at least a few buckshots will definitely hit 72 buckshots at different distances.
      1. 0
        2 July 2024 07: 28
        Quote: paul3390
        At the very same.

        I have a Bernandeli laughing
        Quote: paul3390
        The boar is simply heavy.

        It’s not easy to make a 12-gauge machine gun using the kashaloid scheme, but reliability will be a plus, which is important for LBS.
        Quote: paul3390
        he and Murka always shoot me down.

        This is the bar request
        Quote: paul3390
        Choke attachment - there can be unpleasant options when shooting containers.

        In my opinion, the pay here is enough.
        Quote: paul3390
        Thus, having Murka with extension magazine, you can throw 8 rounds.

        I am not a supporter of increasing stores. I myself use a standard "eight" on a rifled Sayeg. “10 weren’t enough, 30 won’t be enough.” fellow Murka with an extension is still a slow log, just right to attach a bipod. And yes, the larger the store, the greater the likelihood of failure.
  8. +1
    1 July 2024 06: 22
    I admit that a fighter armed with a smoothbore 1,3-1,5 m long will no longer be able to carry and control it with a personal machine gun. In principle, there are shotguns in the bullpup pattern with a length of less than 70 cm, which can easily be carried as an additional fly swatter. I’ll also give you a specification.
    Specs:

    Caliber: 12 ga
    Length: 26.1”
    Barrel Length: 18.5”
    Weight: 5.9lb (unloaded)
    Length of Pull: 13"
    Sights: Green fiber optic front bead
    Capacity: 6+1 w/3” shells (or 7+1 with 2¾ shells)
    1. 0
      1 July 2024 09: 37
      I'll give you some more specifications.
      Specs:

      As I understand the author, the point is precisely in a long barrel, otherwise a grenade launcher gun, the range of which is literally point-blank, would be enough. In the USA, there seem to be these for special forces just for opening locks - Knight's Armament Masterkey.

      Moreover, the further development of the idea looks more decent for our purposes, but it still has a very short barrel - M26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System

    2. 0
      6 July 2024 08: 43
      Shooting at anything that flies has existed for a long time. And weapons for this purpose have long been formed. A bullpup shotgun won't work here. This is a different niche.
  9. +1
    1 July 2024 06: 23
    Shooting down a drone with a shotgun and radio sensor:

    https://t.me/Quantonissimo/12
  10. +5
    1 July 2024 06: 54
    Why are choke attachments suddenly banned? They come with the guns. Paradox and Lancaster were called rifled, and even then they were not banned, but you can only buy with 5 years of experience.
    1. +1
      1 July 2024 09: 40
      If they do, then there are no questions, and modifications to a gun that did not have them are now prohibited.
      1. 0
        1 July 2024 17: 25
        Banned by whom, curious? wink Installing the left naval artillery mounts on a state-owned MT-LB is normal, but the volunteer shotgun was a misfortune and sadness?

        The bans are fabricated by left-wing commanders at the lower levels due to the lack of a legal framework, in a voluntaristic manner. And again we return to the norm, because none of the higher competent persons want to take on any responsibility at all. Even on the issue of voluntary donations of their drosslers to the benefit of the front - has anything been regulated? Complete judicial amateur performance.

        Let's take a broader question: just now, several civilian passenger cars in the border regions of Russia were burned along with their passengers by drones of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Did they have a chance to survive or at least resist? For example, by passengers who are hunters - if they have a hunting weapon ready to open fire. The law prohibits transporting weapons in this way, what prevents changes to be made in this part of Russian territory? The traffic police distinguished themselves just now - a patrolman near the village. Vladimirovka heroically shot down a drone from an AKS-74U with 11 shots. Why is a hunter-fisherman with his bullet catch worse, for the good of the cause? Rhetorical themes, the system of power and control raise many questions; it is surprising that it functions, apparently, by inertia.
        1. 0
          6 July 2024 08: 45
          Well. In the eyes of our law, you should be a corpse, but God forbid you carry a gun around for the hypothetical purpose of shooting.
          The authorities are deathly afraid of arming the people.
      2. +2
        1 July 2024 23: 44
        Well, cutting threads in the barrel for the attachment yourself is not a good idea. Nobody will do this. It will tear apart in fig.
        1. KCA
          +1
          3 July 2024 09: 37
          Right now, my uncle didn’t cut inserts for a shotgun, at one time, not always successfully, my father looked at a bear in Pomorie, well, in general, the butt was in smithereens, his face was covered in splinters, the bear, apparently, was young, ran away, although my father had previously had to deal with butt with a bear with a knife
      3. +1
        2 July 2024 10: 50
        If they do, then there are no questions, and modifications to a gun that did not have them are now prohibited.


        Another nonsense from a person who does not understand what he is writing about and passes off his fantasies as reality.

        Installing choke tubes IS NOT AN UPDATE. Read up on what this term means in relation to weapons.
        1. 0
          6 July 2024 08: 46
          If there is a thread, it is possible. And if you cut it yourself, it’s prohibited.
  11. +2
    1 July 2024 07: 13
    Saiga-Vepr does not necessarily have a short barrel. I saw Kalashoids with quite long barrels.
    Which is better, MR or Bekas Auto? I had Bekas. Quite a heavy log. Benelli is better.)
    1. +2
      1 July 2024 07: 39
      Benelli is better.)
      - it is what it is.....
    2. +3
      1 July 2024 09: 50
      Kalashoids with quite long barrels

      Have you held a VPO-205-02 with a 680 mm barrel in your hands? I - yes, heavy oar - mom, don't worry. It’s simply not realistic to shoot from it offhand..
      1. +2
        1 July 2024 21: 00
        I didn’t hold it and I don’t argue. All I'm saying is that they exist. The author said that Vepr/Saiga are short-barreled.
  12. +1
    1 July 2024 07: 59
    Saiga and boar are best suited. Since they allow quick reloading and the magazines can be drum-type with a large number of cartridges, a barrel length of 50 cm is also more than enough! Already checked.
    1. 0
      1 July 2024 10: 33
      What is important there is not fast recharging, but fast recharging
      1. +1
        1 July 2024 11: 19
        I think you are wrong here, have you tried it yourself?.....
        1. 0
          1 July 2024 13: 05
          I tried it, but it’s not against FPV.
          Ammo is normally loaded into the pump “on the fly”.
          1. +2
            1 July 2024 14: 02
            Yes - but it still needs to be trained, and for quite a long time. And a carob store is clearly a familiar thing for fighters.
    2. -1
      2 July 2024 03: 57
      Quote: zontov79
      Saiga and boar are best suited. Since they allow quick reloading and the magazines can be drum-type with a large number of cartridges, a barrel length of 50 cm is also more than enough! Already checked.

      Let me not believe it! It’s not for nothing that smoothbore barrels were made 750-700, for one or two barrels. But for the cartridge launcher you don’t need any barrels! If only "bang" maybe it will hit?
    3. 0
      6 July 2024 08: 47
      Drum shop?! Another lover of tambourines. Take this poker without a tambourine in your hands.
      1. 0
        7 July 2024 14: 24
        I have one, and if you don’t understand anything, then it’s better not to write to me.
        1. 0
          8 July 2024 08: 30
          Photo on the scales in the studio. With Kalash and separately. With cartridges, of course.
          A tambourine with normal cartridges is not a gift. And what is it with the hunters - I don’t even want to laugh.
          There are few cartridges in the VPO horn. How much will a tambourine add there? What size!? Well, there are one or two Schwarzeneggers who would love this. The rest will prefer a pump or a hunting machine gun.
          Arming an individual fighter with only a shotgun is an unaffordable luxury. If he gets to the assault and finds himself without a machine gun... Yes, no one will do that. And carrying these drum fantasies that you throw over a drone means you’ll get sciatica right away, you have to be a super duper from the movies.
  13. +2
    1 July 2024 08: 32
    Shotgun "Bekas"-12M from the Molot automobile plant

    Machine-building plant
    1. +4
      1 July 2024 09: 40
      The editors have already lit it))
      1. 0
        1 July 2024 11: 35
        I’m just from Vyatskiye Polyany, where this plant is. It would be nice if they wrote a motor plant wrong, since scooters were produced at one time, but a car plant is already powerful laughing
  14. 0
    1 July 2024 08: 37
    I don’t think that shotguns are a “panacea” for drones! This is not something that needs to be developed! 1. It is worth developing the American-180 concept! That is, a small-caliber (5,6 mm), very rapid-fire (1000-1500 w/m) firearm with a magazine (tape) of “decent” capacity! 2. Reactive underbarrel grenade of the GPR-20 type with a non-contact radio fuse; 3. UAVs - short-range aircraft-type drone interceptors, hand-launched; 4. “Small” missiles (40 mm) with a seeker (laser or thermal/photocontrast), launched from a grenade launcher or “by hand” from an ejected TPK! PS If you use pump-action shotguns, then use stockless carbines that you can “throw” behind your back and pick up a machine gun!
    1. +2
      1 July 2024 09: 14
      1. It is worth developing the American-180 concept! That is, a small-caliber (5,6 mm), very rapid-fire (1000-1500 w/m) firearm with a magazine (tape) of “decent” capacity!

      I agree.
      There was an article about this software
      https://topwar.ru/143939-malokalibernyy-pulemet-blyuma-dlya-osoviahima.html?ysclid=ly2kwi6l9i785235002
      There was also our Blum machine gun, which without a moderator had a rate of fire of 3000 rpm
      But the inertia of our military-industrial complex will not allow us to organize rapid production.
    2. -1
      1 July 2024 09: 57
      Perhaps it makes sense to return to the Soviet development of Kolos, which is based on Luftfaust... Structurally, it was a recoilless rifle with a replaceable block of 7 unguided rocket projectiles. It showed quite acceptable efficiency, but jet aviation ruined the idea. And here - a low-speed, not high-altitude target, if you add a non-contact modern fuse to the missiles - it may turn out to be just that. And - amazingly cheap.
      1. 0
        1 July 2024 13: 01
        Quote: paul3390
        Perhaps it makes sense to return to the Soviet development of Kolos

        “Kolos” I already “suggested” earlier! But “Kolos” is a heavier weapon... And jet aircraft have nothing to do with it! Because from the very beginning, Kolos was planned against helicopters! MANPADS with seekers just appeared and began to quickly improve! But against UAVs, this is what the “doctor ordered”, if you need something “cheap and healthy” ... but you can’t give Kolos to everyone’s hands! And the weapon itself is not bad! It is possible to equip active rockets with, if not an active radio frequency fuse, then a radio-controlled fuse...at one time there were also 30-mm cumulative (Czech) shells with armor-piercing up to 90 mm! But even without the kuma, the Kolos shells penetrated 10 mm armor! The "range" of the "Spike" against ground targets = 2 km... So imagine what will happen if, when the "Spike" is fired, 2 shells, equal in power to a 7-mm artillery piece, fall on the enemy position from a distance of 37 km. shells! It is also difficult to miss an armored personnel carrier (BMP) from a distance of 500 m with cumulative shells!
        1. 0
          1 July 2024 14: 14
          Volodya, hello!
          Well, if things go like this, we can try the “Duckling” - not a single drone can stand it! wassat laughing
          1. +1
            1 July 2024 14: 26
            I wish you good health, Kostya! Indeed, the weapon is not bad! What are there drones(!) when you can shoot at tanks! wink
    3. +3
      1 July 2024 21: 17
      From experience, the fire density of a shotgun is several times higher than that of a PPSh and any machine gun, for example, 6 mm buckshot, as many as 27 pieces, a magazine of 10 rounds can be unloaded in 10 seconds, it turns out 270 buckshot in 10 seconds, such a rate of fire does not exist with hand weapons, you haven’t seen how buckshot sews pigs from a semi-automatic machine, PPSh smokes on the sidelines...
      1. -1
        1 July 2024 21: 26
        Quote: air wolf
        The fire density of a shotgun is several times higher than that of PPSh and any machine gun

        You didn't read my comment carefully...
  15. -1
    1 July 2024 09: 04
    In the 70s, the topic of multi-bullet ammunition for army weapons was popular. Now the developments would be useful.
  16. 0
    1 July 2024 09: 47
    MTs-255. Revolver with 5 rounds. Caliber 12x76. There is a modification with a pistol grip and a folding stock.
    1. 0
      1 July 2024 21: 26
      Only Saiga-12s with a 520 mm barrel and a folding stock, I’ve been hunting for 25 years, I’ve hit everything with it am , for example, a large crow 5 koi at 100 meters on the fly, and 7 koi at a glance without even aiming at all the crows at 50 meters, and with a dispersant at short it was impossible to miss at all, something like this..
      My choke is not replaceable, my friend has replaceable choke, but there is no difference, the bullets are launched with sub-caliber bullets in a container, the arrow is great, that’s how we installed the PSO-1 and shot bottles from 100 meters...
  17. -2
    1 July 2024 09: 56
    good and smart article... I wish the Moscow Region would have thought to buy pump-action pumps like Winchester obo from China. 1897 with a chamber of 76 mm or 89 mm, or start producing them yourself...
  18. +1
    1 July 2024 09: 58
    Carrying a smoothbore along with an AK is unrealistic. What if there is a pistol instead of an AK?
    1. -3
      1 July 2024 13: 54
      If this is an attack aircraft, then the pistol will not suit him. He rather needs either an AKSU or a submachine gun.
      Pistols, they are for mortar men, grenade launchers, machine gunners, snipers and crews of combat vehicles.
  19. +3
    1 July 2024 10: 06
    Why is there a reference to some kind of prohibitive legislation in the section on choke constrictions? laughing Moreover, it is highlighted in a different color, is it for fun, or what?

    If anything, according to current legislation, shooting on a ribbon is generally prohibited, neither for athletes nor for civilian hunters, yeah. Such a funny perdimonocle - shooting in Russia by the indicated categories of persons is carried out only in specially designated places, otherwise they will be punished badly, with the confiscation of the bullet. These places include certified shooting ranges and hunting grounds during the hunting period. And that’s it, all other places are prohibited. It is also impossible to transfer hunting and sporting weapons to anyone; you must obtain the appropriate permit. And a lot of other prohibitions, these are just the first ones that I remembered.

    During a war, the law is silent. (c) So why rustle about a regulation that has nothing to do with the war - it’s not clear, according to it, for example, you can’t roam around the land with binoculars - it equates to tracking game and illegal hunting. Such an observer sits in the Russian border region, in a protected forest, watching the sky for enemy drones - he is already a poacher, they are dragging him to death. In general, everything is sad - which is typical, the State Duma and even local legislators are generally silent on this matter. Although there are attempts on the ground to transfer confiscated goods and shotguns voluntarily handed over for destruction to the front, all this is illegal, absolutely, and no one is doing anything to streamline actions and change laws, and is not going to do anything. hi
    1. +2
      1 July 2024 10: 35
      The military police in the combat zone never pressed you for not fastening your seat belt.
      You are simply not in touch with our realities, that’s why you put emoticons.
      If we were smarter, we wouldn’t bet.
      1. -1
        1 July 2024 14: 06
        Comrade, together with paul3390 and his1970, did their best to prevent, here on the forum, the appearance of shotguns in service. What they didn’t write and what methods and statements they didn’t use. Their motives remain to be seen. And now difficult-to-explain activity continues.
        1. +1
          1 July 2024 16: 46
          Was it me who prevented it, and even a group of people? wassat It is necessary to demand a bribe from the accomplices - otherwise it’s a mess, how to (obstruct) the case in such a chorus, and how to divide the shekels - nothing has dropped into the account. A paradox that is difficult to explain, don’t go to a fortune teller.
          And yes: a goose is not a friend to a pig. Definitely.
          1. 0
            1 July 2024 17: 18
            All moves are recorded here. The award will definitely find its hero.
            1. +1
              1 July 2024 17: 28
              The office writes (c) wink But judging by your vocabulary, you are not a clerical person - well, the devil is out of your mind.
        2. 0
          10 July 2024 11: 18
          Comrade, together with paul3390 and his1970, they did their best to prevent it, here on the forum belay the appearance of shotguns in service belay and the forum apparently adopts something?
          Wow...
          But the RF Armed Forces don’t even know what’s going on here Sergey Aleksandrovich already fights with enemies and adopts shotguns into service....
          fool fool fool
    2. 0
      1 July 2024 11: 53
      Such an observer sits in the Russian border region, in a protected forest, watching the sky for enemy drones - he is already a poacher, they are dragging him to death. and if he has a thermal imager and an automatic silencer, then he’s not just a poacher, but a poacher looking...
      Alas, you are right - the NPA is
    3. +1
      1 July 2024 15: 49
      Quote: hhurik
      During a war, the law is silent. (c) So why rustle about regulations that have nothing to do with war is unclear

      During what war? Has someone declared war? wink
      We don't have a war - we have a special military operation. So, at any moment - for pitsunda - and for kukan, according to the laws of peacetime.
    4. 0
      6 July 2024 08: 08
      I know a case where a person was driving in a car and stopped to relieve himself. I saw something and took out binoculars. Which was always in the car. And here are the huntsmen. National park and all that. And a man was driving by. And he didn’t even know that the road passed the national park. He never had a weapon or anything. Result: administrative and inevitability of punishment.
      Fortunately, I think that the fighting people will quickly explain to the police and rangers that the severity of the law is compensated by the optionality of implementation.
  20. -1
    1 July 2024 10: 37
    I don't even know what to add. Everything is to the point. Unless there are extensions for tubular magazines not only for one cartridge, but also longer, up to five I have seen on the MP-153. True, in my opinion and experience, the longer it is, the greater the likelihood of jamming. This is probably due to the fact that the design is still designed for four rounds. Plus, in self-loading, metal cartridges work worse, plastic cartridges with factory equipment are better. Plus, self-loaders are sensitive to the quality of cartridges and require careful handling. Pumps are better in this regard, but for confident use you need a decent shot and
  21. +3
    1 July 2024 10: 59
    IMHO, the idea with shotguns won’t really work, not even for technical reasons, of which there are plenty, but for organizational and legal reasons.
    A shotgun is much, much better than nothing, but I don’t believe that a typical fighter who has been hastily given a shotgun will reliably hit a drone. Yes, I saw on YouTube how prof. arrows hit. And that's not always the case. I also saw how Schumacher drives. Impressive too. In army times I saw how a typical mass shoots at a static target, without tears you can’t remember where they should hit the drone. Even a “born shooter” needs a banal shot. Every day, go to the range and shoot both at the clay pigeons flying at you, and always at real drones. Each of which actually costs a thousand dollars. Yes, repairing a downed drone can cost a penny, or it can cost the full price. And the drone at the shooting range is minus the drone at the front. And there are always not enough of them there. And most importantly, the shooting range needs to be re-equipped, regulatory documents are needed, instructors are needed. But there is nothing about this in the regulations and instructions. And without this, if something happens, it’s a matter under jurisdiction. Who from the local command will take responsibility? Our selection in the vertical of power is traditionally “negative”. Who would want to receive not even a sentence, but simply a black mark as an “irresponsible adventurer” on their personal file and close their career forever?
    To establish all this systematically, it takes years and decades of targeted implementation from above. And it’s precisely at the top that they don’t feel the urgency of the problem of fighting drones.
    1. 0
      1 July 2024 13: 41
      If you don’t know how to solve problems, this does not mean that the problems cannot be solved in principle.
      Actually, skeet shooting skills are quite enough for shooting at drones. And, I would like to remind you that in addition to the plates, there is a hare target.
      During those same army times I saw something else. To complete the UKS, three days of preparation and 3 to 5 magazines for the AK-74 are quite enough. If, after three days of training, an individual has not coped with the UKS, his place is in the convoy and the eternal task of the kitchen.
      It will be enough to take fairly tough measures against the “bugs” and things will go well.
      Even if it takes longer to gain skeet shooting skills, there is nothing insurmountable about it. The task is only to install the necessary equipment at army training grounds and shooting ranges and begin training.
      1. 0
        1 July 2024 18: 35
        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        Skeet shooting skills are quite enough for shooting at drones. And, I would like to remind you that in addition to the plates, there is a hare target.
        During those same army times I saw something else. To complete the UKS, three days of preparation and from 3 to 5 magazines for the AK-74 are quite enough

        The difference between shooting at a static target (and even at a uniformly flying saucer) and shooting at a drone in combat is about the same as riding a bicycle on the road and riding a bicycle along a tightrope over an abyss. If the first, with a moderate application of effort by mediocre trainers, with minimal logistical support, with minimal risk for the trainee and those teaching, can be quickly taught to anyone, then the second, not everyone can be trained, and even for selected personnel, many months of effort from highly qualified trainers are needed, equipped with complex and expensive equipment, and all this with increased risks of causing injury and death (even a training drone weighing a couple of kilos flying at a gunner at a speed of 100 km/h is in itself deadly).
        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        It will be enough to take fairly tough measures against the “bugs” and things will go well.

        I haven’t bought into fairy tales about the magical power of directives from above, about “taking action and ensuring strict implementation.” I’ve seen so many of them, and in civilian life too, but it takes away my nerves and time, and the result is about zero. Maximum - they bring to their senses the personnel demotivated by the meaningless routine, and do not allow them to completely forget about the service.
        It is impossible to obtain a new quality with administrative and disciplinary scribblings. We need to start with creating the material and technical base for the task, changing the staffing structure, pouring in the best personnel, at least selectively, at key points.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      6 July 2024 08: 24
      In terms of shooting, everything is simpler. Enthusiasm is more important than professionalism. During the war, everyone was recruited to become a sniper. We finished our studies and that’s it. And there was no need to finish teaching anyone. There are a lot of people who have a penchant for something. Finding people who like to shoot drones is not a problem. So they will do everything. And the incentive - your own life and the life of your comrades - will teach you better than any training ground.
      And an attempt to formally teach everyone, as is customary in the army, will fail immediately. You don't even have to start. There is no need to shove a radio operator-athlete into a worthless eternal orderly mind. Or a biathlete-candidate of sportsmen to become a sapper. I saw enough of this rubbish in the army. The stupidity of using people was simply amazing. And there were only half of the “drivers” who should not even be allowed near the car.
  22. 0
    1 July 2024 11: 01
    Isn’t it easier to simply make a shot charge for a grenade launcher with a large amount of shot and dispersive detonation at 7-8 meters?
    1. -1
      1 July 2024 13: 04
      No, you need to develop ammunition from scratch, plus the reload speed is low
    2. 0
      1 July 2024 13: 49
      If you think that creating a detonation at 7-8 meters is easier, then you are mistaken. The cocking mechanism on the grenade operates within a fairly wide range, from memory to somewhere around 10-40 meters. They wrote that such a development already exists, it was even discussed. Perhaps it will be adopted.
      But the recoil from the grenade launcher is strong, and the grenade response time is quite unstable.
      1. 0
        1 July 2024 14: 15
        There is rather a smaller powder charge here, because a directed detonation should create a cloud of steel shot at 10-15-20 meters - this is not the same as 12 cal with 38 grams of shot, so reloading is not necessary, since the cloud should cover everything with a diameter of 3- 4 meters.
        1. +1
          1 July 2024 19: 08
          Are you reading what is written for you? The real accuracy of a grenade detonation was, and most likely still is, in the range of 10-40 meters. And if you are going to shoot at FPV drones, then they may be closer than grenade range.
          At a minimum, you need a fuse that is more accurate, and therefore significantly more expensive.
          Which may not exist even in experimental form.
          1. 0
            5 July 2024 12: 00
            You don't quite understand what I mean.... Based on the Vog, create an ammunition similar to a hunting cartridge, but with a large area coverage with sufficient speeds to damage or destroy drones..
            1. 0
              5 July 2024 12: 11
              I understood you perfectly. But the accuracy of detonation of existing fuses does not allow this to be achieved, or, at least, it did not allow it.
            2. +1
              6 July 2024 08: 13
              For a single FOG this is unrealistic. All simple fuses count revolutions. There, God forbid, 10 meters. Then you need to hang a chain of grenades to eliminate this error. A burst of grenades is an AGS. You can look up the weight in any reference book.
  23. +1
    1 July 2024 11: 15
    It’s bad when an outspoken amateur writes on a topic, especially on such a specialized site.

    This suggests that shotguns with cylindrical barrels are less suitable for FPV protection than those with choke tubes.

    The muzzle constriction should not be too large, as the efficiency of shooting large shot will deteriorate.

    The best choice for shooting at UAVs is the “choke” muzzle constriction.


    Let it be known to the author that when shooting with container ammunition, the size of the muzzle constriction does not play a decisive role, and when shooting with knitted buckshot it does not matter at all. And as for me, a half choke and a container are more suitable for the shooting conditions discussed than a choke constriction.

    The shorter the barrel length, the lower the accuracy, the greater the scattering of the shot.


    Barrel length affects muzzle velocity. And of course, a shot with a higher velocity will have greater accuracy at the same distance than a shot with a lower velocity. But the same accuracy can be achieved with a short barrel by slightly increasing the pressure in the chamber.
    And here is my vision of the best shotgun for SVO:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%9C%D0%91-93
    I have this myself, in the Lynx-F version.
    An excellent tool...for certain tasks. bully
    1. -1
      1 July 2024 13: 02
      It’s bad when an outspoken amateur writes on a topic, especially on such a specialized site.


      And you are clear proof of this.
      Are you really planning to shoot with buckshot?
      Do you know the FPV consumption rates for one of our soldiers at Ukrop? How are you technically going to shoot with such a gun at such an FPV consumption?
      There, on each reload, half a second will be lost.

      Your self-esteem is inversely proportional to your intelligence level
    2. +1
      1 July 2024 15: 50
      It’s bad when an outspoken amateur writes on a topic, especially on such a specialized site.


      I fully support this. The author of the article wrote so much nonsense, it’s simply terrible.
    3. 0
      6 July 2024 07: 37
      This wonderful instrument has been out of production for 20 years.
  24. +1
    1 July 2024 11: 15
    Damn, I’ve written about tied buckshot in similar topics ten times
    1. -4
      1 July 2024 13: 03
      Not well suited for FPV shooting
      1. +3
        1 July 2024 15: 39
        Hand face. This is one of the most effective means of shooting drones. The point of tied buckshot is not to hit the drone with buckshot, but to confuse its propellers.

        Thanks to the threads, it’s enough to shoot in the “other direction”
        1. 0
          2 July 2024 11: 47
          Hand face.


          The size of the affected area of ​​knitted buckshot at the same distance that the shot will be smaller
        2. 0
          6 July 2024 07: 36
          We need to check everything. The range will drop significantly, that's for sure. This is how it is applied to animals.
  25. 0
    1 July 2024 14: 04
    A good article, because the author is always good in terms of hardware.

    Well, since you’ve lived to such a point in life that you don’t need to wait for Smartshooter,

    https://youtu.be/vFwJ6ixGOVQ

    then, IMHO, you should still install a collimator on the shotgun - all the tricks of aiming “at the bar” and “at the front sight” do not work well in a stressful situation. The collimator will give a good chance even to an inexperienced shooter.

    https://youtu.be/fZUefyEEsTU

    And the fact that the collimator may not survive such shooting/use - well, “not surviving” about the collimator is not so bad, then you can continue to “put the target on sight.”
    Alas, technology is also consumable.
    1. 0
      1 July 2024 15: 48
      A good article, because the author is always good in terms of hardware.


      Shitty article because the author doesn't understand hardware.
  26. 0
    1 July 2024 14: 57
    Shotguns are, of course, good, but as a temporary measure. As soon as one of the parties comes up with a very simple and cheap solution, all these guns will be “zeroed”, and entire squads of fighters will die from FPV drones.
    Now, as you can see, the development of drones as battlefield weapons is proceeding spontaneously - who knows what. - They attach standard ammunition to various delivery vehicles (who will find what) and off they go... Although, IMHO, it was high time to create a special analytical group consisting of interested representatives of various branches of the military in order to comprehend the accumulated experience, understand the advantages and disadvantages of existing drones, in combination with what is attached to them, and develop tactics and strategy for use, standardize standard sizes, depending on the purpose, and, among other things, develop a range of special weapons. For example, cumulative ammunition can have lightweight plastic casings, bombs can be “bouncing” - to increase effectiveness against the enemy lying down and in trenches, etc. and so on….
    1. 0
      6 July 2024 07: 33
      Analytical groups are studying this. And now we’ll have to die from drones. And a shotgun is the most obvious and effective measure. Let it be for today.
  27. 0
    1 July 2024 15: 46
    It’s unclear why the author writes about chokes and paychecks. This is such a relic of the past that it’s scary to remember. All modern cartridges for smoothbore guns are made in containers, where all this shamanism with fishing rods not only does not work, but also causes harm.

    Shotguns with detachable magazines (Saiga, Vepr) have a short cylindrical barrel, and therefore cannot be selected.


    Damn nonsense. In addition to Saeg and Veprey with long barrels, I advise the author to go to Ded Mazai and look at the section with muzzle extensions.
    1. 0
      6 July 2024 07: 57
      It seems to me that hanging around the trenches and plantings with Veprem-Saiga is much more inconvenient than with a gun. All these handles and magazines are sticking out. You still have to carry your machine gun. Moreover, cartridges for Vepr are in stores. And this is the weight and time to equip them. The soldier is overloaded and so extremely. And the specificity of aiming at an air target in a gun is much clearer and more humane than in a relative of an assault rifle with front and rear sights. For shot and buckshot, they haven’t come up with anything better than a plank. Please do not write about collimators. This is the weight again, sticking out to the sides. And you just have to have it.
      1. 0
        8 July 2024 10: 05
        I’ve been going hunting, including winter hunting, with Saiga 12 for more than a year now and, amazingly, I haven’t experienced any problems with crawling through the bushes.

        Moreover, cartridges for Vepr are in stores. And this is the weight and time to equip them.

        Oh yes, loading 5-8 rounds into a magazine is such a terrible waste of time (sarcasm). Replacing a magazine is much easier and faster than stuffing the same 5-8 rounds into a pump-action pump individually.
        1. 0
          8 July 2024 14: 20
          Look at how fast a semi-automatic machine or pump charges. You can also look at the reload speed of a regular double-barreled horizontal rifle.
          There's not enough tambourine there. Disc magazines have one drawback - the mass of the magazines is equal to the mass of the cartridges. Best case scenario. Tape and flat magazines have fewer. I won’t talk about the convenience of carrying tambourines, because it’s a matter of taste.
  28. +1
    1 July 2024 15: 56
    Dozens of specialized institutes work for the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and the Ministry of Defense.
    And there they decided - let everything go along the path of luck (1. attack / do not attack, the soldier will survive / will not survive 2. we don’t need this (to have the means for early detection and destruction of an enemy UAV)
    dozens of institutes.
  29. +1
    1 July 2024 16: 57
    Quote: timokhin-aa

    Are you really planning to shoot with buckshot?

    It was about knitted buckshot. And, as they correctly pointed out to you, its effectiveness will be much higher than shooting with 1-3 shot, precisely due to the winding of the “tie” on the screws and a greater striking distance.
    Quote: timokhin-aa

    Do you know the FPV consumption rates for one of our soldiers at Ukrop? How are you technically going to shoot with such a gun at such an FPV consumption?
    There, on each reload, half a second will be lost.

    You've obviously never fired a 12 gauge shotgun. Especially from a self-loading or pump-action type and especially with a 12/76 or 12/82 cartridge. And if they were shooting, they would know that while you were returning the sight after recoil, you would have plenty of time to reload the pump. And the actual rate of fire at the target, and in the wrong direction, for a pump-action gun and a self-loading gun will be virtually the same.
    Quote: timokhin-aa

    Your self-esteem is inversely proportional to your intelligence level


    At least I don’t write articles about things I don’t understand.
    And you obviously haven’t even seen this karkalyga “Bekas” that you proposed. And this is a long mop with an ugly balance, demanding on the quality of ammunition and cleaning. And I personally have a hard time imagining how a fighter would navigate the trenches with such a shaft.
    1. -1
      2 July 2024 11: 44
      And this is a long mop with an ugly balance, demanding on the quality of ammunition and cleaning.


      Just like any semi-automatic.
      Like any Western army automatic rifle.
      It's okay.
      But you can hit the target on time, and not when it is already 10 meters away.

      And I personally have a hard time imagining how a fighter would navigate the trenches with such a shaft.


      Well, let's start with the practice of using a smoothbore in combat, you are an expert.
      How do you hold the gun when moving as part of a group, the FPV sound is not yet heard, but the detector has already detected the radio control channel or video?
    2. 0
      2 July 2024 11: 44
      And the actual rate of fire at the target, and in the wrong direction, for a pump-action gun and a self-loading gun will be virtually the same.


      It was the same for me, the question is, is it faster to learn with a semi-automatic?
    3. 0
      6 July 2024 07: 29
      It may be so. But getting thrown at your feet is much more unpleasant.
  30. +1
    1 July 2024 17: 35
    Shotguns with detachable magazines (“Saiga”, “Vepr”) have a short cylindrical barrel, and therefore cannot be selected. In fact..... But the owners of the long-barreled VPO205-02 (barrel length 680mm) don’t even know. Yes, and I don’t believe my eyes... The choke attachment is 205 (450 mm), 350 long, this is an optical illusion.
  31. 0
    1 July 2024 21: 14
    The use of a smoothbore cannot solve the issue of effective combat against UAVs. Firstly, the range of a confident effective shot of a shotgun/buckshot cartridge is limited to 40-50 meters, not to mention the fact that the UAV still needs to be detected. At such distances, in the event of a hit, the target's explosion is a direct danger to the shooter. As an emergency measure to successfully combat kamikaze drones, it is necessary to “push back” the affected area by 100 meters or more. The GM-93/94 grenade launcher with a magazine capacity of 4 shots has such capabilities. If you add a shrapnel grenade to the kit and equip it with a day/night sighting system with a rangefinder and a ballistic calculator, I think at first you will get exactly what you need.
    1. 0
      6 July 2024 07: 48
      Let’s imagine: a fighter screws a tube for shrapnel onto each grenade ((. Then you need a special grenade launcher with a radar or a cunning range finder (a traditional laser one is unlikely to work for a drone) to determine the distance and automatically screw the fuse. How wearable all this will be is unknown. Yes , and this thing still needs to be developed.
      1. 0
        6 July 2024 10: 22
        Maxim, it seems to me that your information about modern electronic sights comes from “Old Testament times.” Go to any website selling hunting optics and read the characteristics of digital and thermal imaging sights. The ability to measure the distance to a target, calculate its angular velocity and calculate the aiming point - all these functions are already present even in civilian models. And, as for the time/distance of ammunition activation, it seems that the existence of electronic programming for remote detonation is also news to you. And by the way, this is not the only principle of slowing down the firing of ammunition without human intervention. So, everything has already been developed a long time ago - the grenade launcher, shrapnel grenades, remote programmers, and sights. Not everything is ours, but it is there. And only one thing is necessary - the emergence of an understanding among responsible persons in the Defense Ministry that all this is really necessary to protect the soldiers. Then there will be a good “kick” to the developers/manufacturers for the speedy organization of mass production and supplies to the troops. But the new Minister of Defense, alas, does not have time to deal with issues of armament and supply of the army; he is busy conducting “high-profile” PR campaigns to identify and expose corrupt officials in the Defense Ministry.
        1. 0
          6 July 2024 19: 40
          1. Have they been tested on drones?
          2. What is the price? Will your relatives buy it?
          3. I am well aware of such scopes. And I also understand that you can’t give one to everyone. War. Everything on it deteriorates and is consumed at an alarming rate.
          1. 0
            6 July 2024 19: 47
            The fact of the matter is that the decision should be made at the level of the Moscow Region, and not at the level of amateurs or volunteers.
            1. 0
              6 July 2024 19: 48
              Here, sometimes even military men who are quite smart in some matters demonstrate amazing inertia. What can we say about the top management? Military specifics make it difficult to think.
        2. 0
          8 July 2024 08: 40
          In general, if such a sight is brought to fruition, then it will be easier to focus on using it on a machine gun. It's easier to carry everything. The sight displays the mark with all the corrections on the drone, well, and put the entire magazine there. In my opinion, in this case the shotgun is no longer needed.
          In general, the idea needs to be tested.
  32. 0
    1 July 2024 22: 11
    Here is an option https://t.me/anna_news/68226
  33. 0
    1 July 2024 22: 54
    Hallelujah. I wrote a lot in the comments about this method of combating UAVs. Hooray. Finally. I hope the army will be equipped with such guns soon. Duck hunters needed
  34. 0
    2 July 2024 18: 35
    As nonsense, I suggest using explosive bullets for AKs. Set the gap to 20-30 m after leaving the barrel. The shape and parts of the explosive bullet are discussed - from shot to decompressed steel spring cloud. Every third cartridge in the magazine has such an explosive bullet.
    Pros: The AK is always with the fighter and he is ready to fight off the enemy and the FPV directly threatening him.
    A smoothbore shotgun, for all its effectiveness, is still a separate type of weapon.
  35. 0
    6 July 2024 07: 13
    Weapons are not very important here. It's important to be able to shoot. This is hunting and shooting specificity. Everything is different there. And grandfather’s double-barreled shotgun may turn out to be the ideal weapon. It is not for nothing that the British consider the double-barreled breakout gun to be the most reliable weapon for Africa. 4 shots can be fired at unrivaled speed. Smooth bores, of course, this also applies.
  36. 0
    6 July 2024 07: 44
    On this topic, it is completely unclear how, in addition to the Defense Ministry, the troops are supplied? To purchase, you need a license. The soul bells haven't scratched the surface of gun laws. MO, when it takes care, the war will end. For a general, a hunting rifle is an insult. It has not passed the test and is not accepted for service.
    Men can take their own with them. But then you will be deprived of the right to a weapon forever - loss, violation of storage rules, etc. Kadyrov is smart enough to buy this for his units. The National Guard must have something.
  37. 0
    6 July 2024 11: 40
    In my opinion, this whole topic is being discussed so that there is something to write about and something to comment on. That is, get smarter.
  38. 0
    7 July 2024 01: 49
    Grenades for RPGs and grenade launchers equipped with a mesh.
  39. 0
    7 July 2024 07: 32
    And all athletes and hunters with their guns, instead of shooting at plates and destroying living creatures, go to the SVO. Let them practice accuracy, at least it will be useful
  40. 0
    9 July 2024 12: 56
    I think that a good option is to use a MAUL-type shotgun.
  41. 0
    9 July 2024 13: 35
    the author acted as captain of the obvious, but even here he messed up. firstly, a tubular magazine is not suitable due to capacity and reload speed. secondly, there are 12-gauge automatic shotguns. thirdly, these shotguns are a palliative. You need an automatic 12-gauge anti-drone gun with homing. at least on technology