DIY history. Trojan horse

141
DIY history. Trojan horse
"Trojan horse". Layout - a visual aid for lessons stories and literature in high school. Author's photo


Now about the wooden horse,
Wonderful creation of Epeos with the help of the maiden Pallas,
Sing to us how he was cunningly brought into the city by Odysseus,

Odyssey. Song eight. Homer. Translation by V. A. Zhukovsky

DIY artifacts. This story began a long time ago, a very long time ago, when my mother took me to see the movie “The Wanderings of Odysseus” (1954) with Kirk Douglas in the title role, that is, somewhere in the summer of 1962. Oh, how I loved this movie back then. It's impossible to say simply. I remember that I immediately made myself Greek armor out of paper, colored with pencils and glued with stationery glue. I really liked Odysseus’s ship and all his adventures. Well, if so, my mother immediately bought me the book “The Adventures of Odysseus,” which became one of my favorite books for a long time.




The cover of this book...

It was from it that I learned about the “Trojan horse,” and it interested me very much. But... and nothing more, until I read the Iliad itself, and then also an excerpt from the Aeneid, where it was also discussed. And here's what's interesting. Everywhere this horse was described differently and portrayed in just as different ways.


“The Trojan Horse” is an illustration from the book “The Adventures of Odysseus” (a prose retelling by E. Tudorovskaya). The horse is clearly depicted as made of planks, but... it looks quite realistic!


Illustration from the same book. The horse looks very realistic, even though it is wooden!

It is known that to build the horse, the Hellenes cut down the dogwood trees (cranei) growing in the sacred grove of Apollo, appeased Apollo with sacrifices and gave him the name Carnea (for the horse was made of maple). At the same time, on the side of the “horse” there was an inscription:

“This gift is brought to Athena the Warrior by the departing Danaans.”


An ancient image of a “horse” on the neck of a pithos from 675-650. Mykonos Museum, Mykonos Island


Fragment with a “horse” close-up. The horse, as you can see, even has windows through which the heroes in it look. Mykonos Museum, Mykonos Island

The size of the “horse” is not mentioned in any of the works. Neither in the Iliad, nor in the Odyssey, nor in the Aeneid, except that the horse was so large that it got stuck in the gates of Ilium. There are also many discrepancies regarding how many people were placed in it. The maximum number named is simply amazing - according to the Little Iliad, there were 3000 of them, which is clearly incredible. According to Stesichorus, there were 100 warriors inside, the numbers are called 20, 23, or only 9, which are named, however, all by name: Menelaus, Odysseus, Diomedes, Thersander, Sfenel, Acamant, Foant, Machaon and Neoptolemus. Quite, by the way, enough to unexpectedly attack the guards at the gates, and they could not have been very big on that happy day for Troy, and open them for the Achaeans who had secretly returned.


"The Death of Laocoon and His Sons." "Vatican Virgil". "Aeneid", book II. Last third of the 4th or beginning of the 5th century AD. e. Vatican Apostolic Library, Rome


The same manuscript. "Trojan horse". One of the most ancient images of him

It is interesting that most attention is paid to the legendary horse not in the Iliad and the Odyssey, which would be quite natural, but in the Aeneid, where the gods are completely different, and the story of a completely different hero is described.

Build a horse, like a mountain. By the art of Pallas
Motivated by the marvelous, it is sheathed with sawn spruce, -
False rumors are circulating - on a vow for the sake of return.
They themselves hide inside the husbands chosen by lot,
Having hammered the wall tightly and in the hollow womb of the community

Everyone got down to business: the skating rinks are failing the community
A hemp rope is wrapped around the legs and around the neck,
They are pulling. The fatal horse moves heavily towards the walls,
It is fraught with enemy weapons. There are innocent maidens around,
The boys sing hymns and rejoice as they touch the rope.

Aeneid. Book II. Translation from Latin by S. A. Osherov, ed. F.A. Petrovsky.


An illustration from some children's book...


And this is also an illustration from some educational publication

As for images, they began to depict the famous Trojan horse in ancient times, and later it was minted on ceremonial shields of the New Age, and it also became a favorite theme of artists who painted paintings on ancient themes. For example, he was depicted by Giovanni Domenico Tiepolo, 1760, in the form of a completely, so to speak, normal horse... sculpture! Although it was quite obvious that a horse made of boards (no matter what, shipboard or freshly cut) could not be like that.

The most reliable figure of a horse was shown to us in the movie “Troy” (2004). In it, it is shown to be made from ship planks from broken ships, and it was clearly made hastily.


“Horse” from the movie “Troy” (2004)

Often the Trojan horse can be seen in children's educational books, but looking at these drawings, the thought involuntarily creeps in that the artists who drew them did not bother to carefully read its quite accessible descriptions. For example, there are images of a “Trojan horse” on wheels. But... no one actually put it on wheels; it was the Trojans who rolled it into the city, placing rollers under it. But the rollers can only be placed under a plane, which means that the horse was standing on something that could be placed under it and then rolled towards the city.


The same horse after filming the movie. Canakkale city, Türkiye. Photography by Ross Burgess

And then on the Internet I came across a photograph of a “Trojan horse” with figurines of Greeks from the Zvezda set underneath it. I really liked the idea itself, and primarily because such a “horse” with figures is nothing more than an excellent... visual aid for history and literature lessons. Such manuals and lessons enliven, and arouse children’s interest in needlework, and this is also very important in all respects.


A photo from the Internet that served as a source of inspiration for the author...

So I decided to make exactly the same “horse”, and from the most accessible materials for everyone today, which are coffee stirrer sticks. They are sold both online and in specialized packaging stores. These sticks are sold in different lengths, but they all have the same width – 6 mm. Thickness – 1,3-1,8 mm. Sets come in 250, 500, and 750 pieces per pack.


The horse from the photo, translated into a pattern for making from coffee stirrer sticks. Rice. A. Shepsa


Development of a “horse” based on this scheme

Work on the “horse” began as follows. According to A. Sheps' diagram, developments of the main parts were made: the sides were made of thick paper for drawing, the bottom with a slot for the hatch was made of brown packaging cardboard. The assembly of the base of the model was carried out as follows: the side surfaces were glued to the bottom for strength with superglue. After that, all the other “transverse” parts of the horse were cut out, adjusted in place and glued with PVA.


Glued paper and cardboard frame of the “horse”

As you can see in the photo, some of the fold lines of the parts were not sharp. But that's just a good thing. Gives the finished “horse” a natural look!

“Boards” – coffee stirrer sticks – were glued to paper using Moment glue. Somewhere whole, somewhere (for the sake of realism) the casing was made up of pieces. Where special strength was required, the sheathing was glued with “superglue”, which, of course, must be done in a ventilated room and should not be given to children (if you do not want to separate their glued fingers later) until they grow up! As you can see, in the diagram of the author (and A. Sheps), there is no tail. This was pointed out to the author by his granddaughter, who stated that there are no horses without a tail. And already in the process of work, the horse’s tail had to be “sculpted”.


“Horse” in the process of being “overgrown” with “boards”

The finished horse was sanded and painted. First with black acrylic with paint flowing into all the seams. Then again sanded down to light wood. Then it was painted with rosewood wood stain and covered with colorless matte tsapon varnish. The skating rinks on which the horse stands are kebab sticks coated with amber nitro varnish.

The Greek warriors who climbed out of the “horse” should have had a scale of 1:72. But I didn’t like the set of Greek hoplites from the Zvezda company. Wrong time! Therefore, I turned a set of medieval Zvezda infantry knights into Greeks from the Trojan War era. He cut off the crosses on the surcoat, decorated the helmets with crests of the required shape and horns, made a figure-eight shield - in a word, subjected them to the historically necessary conversion. Spears, by the way, are also made of wire. They are inserted into holes drilled in the warriors' fists. Using a microdrill, holes were drilled in the legs of all the warriors for pieces of steel wire 0,75 mm thick, which were inserted into their legs for strong attachment to the “horse” flooring. Corresponding holes were also drilled in the flooring and wires from the legs were inserted into them. So my Greeks are “planted” on the foundations of the “horse” very firmly, because this manual is destined to be in children’s hands!


Here they are, these figures: there were knights, now there are Greeks. The main thing is to have a sharp knife, and then making them won’t be very difficult!

Then the “horse” was transferred to the 6th linguistic gymnasium of our city, where all the teachers really liked it, and where it will be used in lessons along with other aids that have already been transferred there and will be transferred in the future.


Trojan Horse, rear view, giving a good look at the tail added to it!

And finally... Many today say and write that our Russian school is not going through its best days. In some ways this is true. But... what's the point of grinding your tongue and pounding on the computer keyboard when you don't need to chat, but do. The school can and should be helped, and this can be done in a variety of ways, the main thing is to want to do it and think a little. For example, I can help the school by making visual aids, at least one or two. But if many people did this, then... a lot would change then. In schools, you can and should open interesting clubs, teach what you yourself know well, and convey your life experience to children in living language. Moreover, we have enough handicraft pensioners, even among those who visit the VO website, who could very well do this! And their example became useful for others...
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  1. +7
    25 May 2024 04: 57
    Since my school days, I have always been interested in the question: were the Trojans really such imbeciles that they could not distinguish the creation of human hands, they believed and fell for such bullshit? wink
    1. +4
      25 May 2024 06: 18
      So they knew that the horse was the creation of the hands of the Greeks. The Greek defector sent by Odysseus told them. That it was the Greeks who made the horse as a gift to Pallas Athena. And then the Trojans more than once heard the armor ringing inside the horse. But the gods clouded their minds!
      1. +5
        25 May 2024 06: 53
        As a child, it was one of my favorite books, and Odysseus and Ajax were my favorite characters. I could read it from anywhere, a wonderful adaptation of an ancient book for children. Unfortunately, similar interpretations of other great books did not come across.
        1. +5
          25 May 2024 09: 01
          Quote: mr.ZinGer
          a wonderful adaptation of an ancient book for children

          Tudorovskaya was a great master of such retelling!
      2. +4
        25 May 2024 06: 57
        But the gods clouded their minds!
        The answer is accepted wink
      3. +4
        25 May 2024 12: 00
        A fairy tale is a fairy tale. But, for diligence, there is a clear *+*.
      4. +2
        26 May 2024 15: 02
        Quote: kalibr
        And then the Trojans more than once heard the armor ringing inside the horse.
        Did the spirits of the Trojans tell you this? Are you spinning the plates or what?
        Quote: kalibr
        But the gods clouded their minds!
        Are you talking to the gods?
        How many times have they said that most likely in the story of the siege of Troy, so to speak, the horse appeared due to a copyist’s mistake in the Latin translation of Homer’s poem. There are two similar words in Latin, differing only in the first letter: Aqua - water and Equa - mare. Initially, the legend could not be about a horse, but about an aqueduct through which someone (let it be the Greeks) secretly made their way into a certain besieged city (let it be Troy). Without properly blocking the water pipeline, the besieged (let them be Trojans) seemed to have let the enemy into their city.
        In principle, the same case when a thick, harsh thread turned into a camel. And the expression: “It’s easier to thread a thick, harsh thread into the eye of a needle... (hereinafter in the text)” turned into a classic misunderstanding “It’s easier camel pass through the coal eye (hereinafter referred to in the text").
        1. +3
          26 May 2024 15: 16
          Quote: Seal
          Did the spirits of the Trojans tell you this?

          This, Sergei Petrovich, is written in the text of the Iliad. You need to read the works, and only then hit the keyboard. And the phrase “The gods have clouded their minds” is from the same place... So don’t try to look stupider and more ignorant than you are. That's funny. And there is no need to guess how it could have been. There is a text from Homer - that's all. By the way, why is this a mistake in the Latin translation? In the Greek text, which has also been preserved, “horse” also appears. And didn’t you see the drawing on the vase at the beginning of the article? It came out, or what? There are two of them, by the way.
          1. +1
            26 May 2024 16: 39
            Yes, that you are still like a child. fool Ah, there is the text of "Homer" laughing This is the blind storyteller whom illiterate Greeks (or whoever??) supposedly memorized for 600 years (or whatever, 700 years?? 800 years) “by word of mouth”, by word of mouth” until this text is finally didn’t write it down?
            By the way, who wrote it down? Is his handwriting known? And further. Do you know exactly in what language the text of Homer, so to speak, was first put on paper (papyrus, parchment)? Do you guarantee that the first recording of the texts of "Homer" was in Greek? And if you guarantee that you will share, on what basis do you have such confidence?
            Ah, a vase. So what, what about a vase? Yes, from some time, when the now classic version with a horse became, so to speak, widespread, of course, a lot of images of this version appeared, including on vases. And what does this prove?
            I can also give you a work with divine intervention. Biblical Old Testament. There is a story there that Joshua stopped the sun with prayer. And, in your opinion, this “divine intervention” should be taken on faith, well, since it has been written, so do you think?
            Although..to whom am I telling all this? request
            1. +1
              26 May 2024 17: 57
              Quote: Seal
              Do you guarantee that the first recording of the texts of "Homer" was in Greek? And if you guarantee that you will share, on what basis do you have such confidence?
              Ah, a vase. So what, what about a vase? Yes, from some time, when the now classic version with a horse became, so to speak, widespread,

              I guarantee it, and the Greek vase confirms this. However, everything is on the Internet. But I have no reason to throw pearls in front of an ignoramus who does not know how to use them. Available in Russian, English and Greek. The whole history of these works. And Google translator will help you.
              1. +1
                26 May 2024 17: 57
                Quote: kalibr
                Why do you have such confidence?

                Read more ...
                1. -1
                  26 May 2024 19: 34
                  Read more ...
                  No, I’m saying that there are no more naive people than historians. For some reason, my opponent thinks that the more he reads various fiction on historical topics, with which libraries and stores and the Internet are filled, the smarter he will become. fool
                  Since childhood, Caliber has been fascinated by history and ... never questioned it, taking everything, even the most absurd, on faith. However, like any believer. After all, it was not me who derived the believer’s formula: “I believe, because it is absurd.” wink
                  That is why he is so nervous about any questions about the reliability of this or that event in the official version of history. He is simply not morally ready to discuss the authenticity of what he has believed in all his life.
                  Although, let's play on the field of the official version of history.
                  So:
                  1) according to the official version of history, the so-called “Trojan War” took place either in the 13th or 12th century BC.
                  2) according to the official version of history, Homer lived in the 9th century BC.
                  3) according to the official version of history, the oldest written copies of the Iliad and Odyssey officially date back to the XNUMXth century AD.
                  The oldest manuscript containing the text of the Iliad is Venetus A from the Library of St. Mark, written in the 10th century.

                  True, they say that there is an illustrated Iliad (well, like modern comics, in which there is a picture and a short inscription), which historians for some reason date earlier, but still not earlier than the very end of the 5th - beginning of the 6th century AD.
                  Conclusion: Nobody knows when, by whom and in what language the first recording of these works was made on some medium (paper, papyrus, parchment).
                  Well, except for Caliber, of course. hi He knows everything wassat
                  1. +1
                    26 May 2024 20: 13
                    Quote: Seal
                    He is simply not morally ready to discuss the authenticity of what he has believed in all his life.

                    Still, you are... to put it mildly, a strange person. I already wrote that I really don’t care whether this event is reliable or not. I personally don’t believe in anything at all, because I’ve worked enough in archives that you’ll never get to. But... there are poems that are studied in the school curriculum in the 5th grade. At this age there is no faith or lack thereof, there is a given school curriculum that must be learned. This diorama increases the cognitive element of learning. I hope you won’t argue with this? And this is the main point! And in "daisy" there was Troy, there wasn't, there was a horse, there was no horse, play with others. I'm not interested. I am interested in improving teaching methods. ALL! Explained clearly?
                    1. +1
                      26 May 2024 20: 18
                      Quote: kalibr
                      I personally don’t believe in anything at all, because I’ve worked enough in archives that you’ll never get to.
                      You can believe that I will laugh at this self-confidence of yours for a long time. laughing laughing
                      But... there are poems that are studied in the school curriculum in the 5th grade. This diorama increases the cognitive element of learning. I hope you won’t argue with this?
                      Cognitive element of what? If the discipline is “Literature”, then I completely agree. But if you attribute it to history, this is the essence of stupidity and lip service to children.
                      1. 0
                        26 May 2024 20: 28
                        Quote: Seal
                        But if you attribute it to history, this is the essence of stupidity and lip service to children.

                        Why these empty words of yours? Show the independence of your own thinking and please your self-worth? Nobody here needs them. If you don’t like history at school, cancel it! Don't like history books at school? Write yours, no one bothers you.
                      2. -1
                        26 May 2024 21: 45
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Nobody needs them here.
                        Oh-oh-oh, have you authorized yourself to express the opinion of “everyone”?? Blow away stop
                        About archives. Yes, back in Soviet times I happened to wander into a number of entrances of the building on Staraya Square and into the building on the street. B. Khmelnitsky, 3/13. But that's not the point. You see, archives are different from archives. Even if these are the archives of the party and Komsomol. You’d better tell me what form of admission you used during the USSR and when it was terminated.
                        About words.
                        It is not for you to judge what my words are. Moreover, you don’t understand anything about this.
                      3. 0
                        27 May 2024 07: 15
                        Quote: Seal
                        Moreover, you don’t understand anything about this.

                        This is also your personal opinion. A lot of people not only in the Russian Federation, but all over the world think differently. So I can’t give a damn about the opinion of one anonymous person.
                      4. 0
                        27 May 2024 07: 16
                        Quote: Seal
                        hang around

                        You can also go to the toilet. The important thing is to work.
                      5. 0
                        27 May 2024 07: 18
                        Quote: Seal
                        Oh-oh-oh, you have authorized yourself to express the opinion of “everyone”

                        Read the comments of other people with VO to their texts...
                      6. 0
                        26 May 2024 20: 32
                        Quote: Seal
                        I will laugh at this self-confidence of yours for a long time.

                        So you also worked in the archives of the Central Committee of the All-Union Leninist Young Communist League and the OK CPSU, right? You might even be “party father Fyodor”? And have you written and defended your dissertation on the history of the CPSU? Congratulations! It turns out that we are colleagues.
                      7. 0
                        27 May 2024 07: 17
                        Quote: kalibr
                        It turns out that we are colleagues.

                        And then there was no answer...
                      8. 0
                        27 May 2024 19: 49
                        What, you won’t calm down? Well, yes, when people like you have essentially nothing to answer, but really want to answer, people like you are used to taking any factual discussion into the plane: “Who are you? Are you a historian or what??”
                        And don't get your hopes up, I'm not your colleague. I'm on a slightly different side. But I was in the archives.
                        Now about who didn't answer. Why were you ashamed to answer about the form of admission that you had during the USSR, huh? Or did you not have it at all?
                        It’s funny to read your statement that “you “worked” in the archives of the Central Committee of the Komsomol and the Central Committee of the CPSU wink negative
                        To work, dear man, it means to do something useful. You can work in a plant or factory at a machine tool or in a design bureau, you can work in a field, you can work in a mine, you can work as a chauffeur or driver of another vehicle, and many, many other places you can work. You can work as a scientist, inventing and implementing various new technological processes, deducing the fundamental laws of the universe that drive progress and help humanity move forward. Even working behind the counter is more consistent with the term “work” than wiping pants in the archives.
                        Have you turned at least one nut or bolt in your entire life?
                      9. 0
                        27 May 2024 20: 39
                        Quote: Seal
                        Why were you ashamed to answer about the form of admission that you had during the USSR, huh? Or did you not have it at all?

                        You should know that everyone who wrote and defended a candidate's dissertation on the history of the CPSU had access form No. 2. This is generally known, but you probably don’t know it.... The dissertation is not difficult to find on the Internet, there are links to the archival materials used, so “it’s funny to read” is stupid. However, like your entire comment. The writings of a foolish ignoramus. But sharpening nuts is not my job. Mine was to teach students. First, to implement the ideas of the party, then... skillfully create a good rumor about something or someone. Well, what can I do with my hands in the article in front of you. This is all for children, so that their life in the world will be more interesting and their studies will be a joy.
                      10. 0
                        28 May 2024 19: 54
                        I really didn’t know what permissions were given to graduate students writing dissertations on the history of the party. Graduate students are not my thing. But since you said that it was on Form No. 2, I can say that you were essentially allowed only to the most poorly classified archives. laughing
                        Now about that.
                        But sharpening nuts is not my job. Mine was to teach students.
                        It would be better if you sharpened the nuts. For all your life you taught students something, the probability of which was equal to the probability that a monkey placed at a typewriter would type the novel “War and Peace” by Leo Tolstoy using the random method of typing. Moreover, they probably pestered students during exams and tests with all sorts of stupid questions, such as “In what year did Pharaoh so-and-so rule?” “How many years did he rule?” ; "Who was he married to?" ; "When was A. Makedonsky born?" And so on and so forth.
                        I’ll bet 1000 to one that you personally didn’t tell your students anything, for example, that Anatole France in his novel-essay “Penguin Island” simply trampled on those who “write history.” I told you about him several times.
                        Well, what can I do with my hands in the article in front of you.
                        I see. you create fairy tales, but for some reason you don’t call the fairy tales fairy tales, but present them as “serious historical material.” From which children do not enjoy, but are completely saddened. Especially, probably, on the Unified State Exam.
                      11. 0
                        29 May 2024 05: 28
                        Quote: Seal
                        From which children do not enjoy, but are completely saddened.

                        There were photographs of children from an article about the “knightly shift” of the Rostum camp, where they are with helmets on their heads. Look how upset they are
                        Quote: Seal
                        and conduct them as “serious historical material”.
                        Did you come up with such stupidity yourself, or did someone tell you? This is an illustration for the poem and nothing more. To make it more interesting to read...
                      12. 0
                        29 May 2024 05: 29
                        Quote: Seal
                        Anatole France, in his novel-essay “Penguin Island,” simply trampled those who “write history.”

                        In the novel... So what? Fuck him...
                      13. 0
                        30 May 2024 20: 40
                        Quote: kalibr
                        In the novel... So what? Fuck him...

                        1. Anatole France? Fuck him!!!!
                        2. Ludwig Boltzmann? Never mind him!!!
                        I wonder who other famous people on the planet are on your “fuck him” and “don’t care about him” list?
                        However, such a disregard for people is precisely characteristic of teachers of the history of the CPSU wink
                        During my years of study, I was simply amazed by the teachers on the history of the Party, who in all seriousness told us about such things as ... for example, about the trial of representatives of the “Anti-Soviet Right-Trotskyist Bloc” lol The teachers didn’t care that they had previously convinced us that Trotsky was the leader of the so-called “Left Opposition.” That is, in essence, the History of the Party, speaking of the Anti-Soviet right-Trotskyist bloc, spoke of a “right-left bloc.” bully And the teachers presented all this nonsense to the students
                        and to the cadets without a shadow of embarrassment. fool
                        PS Although when, for some sins (I caught the eye of my superiors at the wrong time) in the late 1980s, I was forced into training at UML, the colonels from the Military-Political Academy who taught us were quite adequate people and they calmly showed all the absurdity contained in subject "History of the CPSU". hi
                      14. 0
                        29 May 2024 05: 36
                        Quote: Seal
                        Moreover, they probably pestered students during exams and tests with all sorts of stupid questions, such as “In what year did Pharaoh so-and-so rule?” “How many years did he rule?” ; "Who was he married to?" ; "When was A. Makedonsky born?" And so on and so forth.

                        I taught the history of the CPSU. The years of Makedonsky's life are not included in its subject matter.
    2. +2
      25 May 2024 14: 19
      Because there was no horse. The horse is a symbol of Poseidon, the god of earthquakes. Troy was destroyed by an earthquake and later sacked and burned. That's the end of the fairy tale.
      1. 0
        26 May 2024 15: 02
        How many times have they said that most likely in the story of the siege of Troy, so to speak, the horse appeared due to a copyist’s mistake in the Latin translation of Homer’s poem. There are two similar words in Latin, differing only in the first letter: Aqua - water and Equa - mare. Initially, the legend could not be about a horse, but about an aqueduct through which someone (let it be the Greeks) secretly made their way into a certain besieged city (let it be Troy). Without properly blocking the water pipeline, the besieged (let them be Trojans) seemed to have let the enemy into their city.
        In principle, the same case when a thick, harsh thread turned into a camel. And the expression: “It is easier to thread a thick, harsh thread through the eye of a needle... (hereinafter in the text)” turned into the classic misunderstanding “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a coal (hereinafter in the text”).
        1. +1
          26 May 2024 15: 04
          You wrote a hypothesis, and I have established what archaeologists have established.
    3. +3
      25 May 2024 16: 05
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      Since my school days, I have always been interested in the question: were the Trojans really such imbeciles that they could not distinguish the creation of human hands, they believed and fell for such bullshit? wink

      That's the same. I also always thought, why the hell was it necessary to roll this huge thing into the city? I didn’t even enter the gate.. Why do they need a wooden horse? In my inflamed mind, I would have burned it in the place where it stood. And he arranged a holiday. Songs and dances with drinking. around a burning horse. I'm not sure that at that time people were so naive as to bring all sorts of nasty things into the house...
    4. +3
      26 May 2024 11: 50
      I always felt sorry for Lacaon.
  2. +10
    25 May 2024 07: 37
    Good day to all!!!
    “Homer”, the great blind man, on whose work the moral standards of generations of descendants were formed for almost three millennia. Even today, his good and evil, love and hatred, betrayal and loyalty are part of our awareness of the ecumene.
    The Iliad and Odyssey, along with the Bible and the Koran, are the tablets of modern civilization, damn it, to be honest, I tried without pathos.
    Okay, I’ll smile at the comrades on the topic “hello, the Trojan horse has come to you”!
    1. +4
      25 May 2024 09: 02
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      I honestly tried without pathos.

      There’s no way to avoid pathos here, because it’s true!
    2. +6
      25 May 2024 09: 23
      Even today, his good and evil, love and hatred, betrayal and loyalty are part of our awareness of the ecumene.

      That you got excited.
      1. +4
        25 May 2024 09: 24
        Good morning Nikolaevich, why!
        1. +1
          25 May 2024 09: 31
          Good morning!
          The theme is such that it can’t work without pathos, so a little of that same pathos.
          Good and evil, normative-evaluative categories of moral consciousness, in an extremely general form denoting, on the one hand, the proper and morally positive, good, and on the other, the morally negative and reprehensible in the actions and motives of people, in the phenomena of social reality.

          In other words
          Ideas about good and evil changed so much from people to people, from century to century, that they often directly contradicted one another.

          Accordingly, murder, for example, is not interpreted by Homer as a crime, but a highly moral person, according to Homer, is
          handsome, strong, intelligent, eloquent, a man of noble birth, who is accompanied by happiness and fame
          1. +6
            25 May 2024 10: 02
            Nikolaevich, however, as well as “treason”. The Iliad is woven from contradictions! Regarding the noble origin, the family of an acquaintance (not a poor enough person) derived for 1,5 lemmas of wood their pedigree from the collateral but recognized children of the Stroganovs. The husband went to the regional archive, hung out with someone and took a fake certificate for a box of cognac that he was a descendant of the Tatar farm laborer Shashmura from the village of Ak Bash. His wife almost scratched his eyes out. Moreover, the people are adults; she is a professor, and he is an associate professor at a university. Five years have passed, but they still have problems with this point.
            1. +2
              25 May 2024 10: 14
              like "treason"

              In Homeric ethics, the reason, purpose, and principle of action are determined by those values ​​that act as ideal guidelines for human behavior.
              And the values ​​of the Homeric Greeks were epic - the achievement of personal good with a focus on the criterion of success - failure. To achieve a goal, everything that is allowed to a person by virtue of the social status of which he is the bearer is justified, and this status is always determined from the outside by fate.
              1. +5
                25 May 2024 11: 22
                That is, the concept of good and evil is obviously false? As times change, so do the concepts about this concept? recourse*the end justifies the means...*Somehow ugly. The goal and the means of achieving it are different.
                1. +4
                  25 May 2024 14: 31
                  That is, the concept of good and evil is obviously false?
                  The concepts of “good and evil” are purely subjective.
                  1. +2
                    26 May 2024 08: 38
                    You know, Sergey, I don’t agree with you.
                    Good is good, and evil... is precisely evil.
                    Good morning to you! hi
                    1. +1
                      26 May 2024 08: 41
                      Phil, good morning! Abstract “good”, like abstract “evil,” does not exist.
                      1. +2
                        26 May 2024 08: 47
                        Help the weak? Not help? Abstraction? There is good, but there is also evil, alas.
                      2. +5
                        26 May 2024 10: 37
                        . There is good, but there is also evil, alas.

                        Do you think I passed by yesterday?
                        No, it didn't. I was just too lazy to speak, even with my fingers.

                        There was such an outstanding Soviet psychologist and mathematician Vladimir Lefevre, who emigrated to the USA in 1974. There, looking at how Americans lived, he developed a theory about two ethical systems defining Western and non-Western societies.
                        In the Western ethical system, compromise between good and evil is considered evil, and confrontation is considered good. According to the East, a compromise between good and evil is good, and confrontation is evil.
                        This is so that we all understand and can evaluate the events of today.
                        In general, just like that, by the way... But never mind! wassat )))
                      3. +2
                        26 May 2024 14: 35
                        Vladimir Lefevre, who immigrated to the USA in 1974
                        The cunning Jew did not go to Israel, but immediately to the USA. And Sergei Georgievich Kara-Murza wrote well about the two ethics: there is Protestant ethics and there is Orthodox.
                      4. +2
                        26 May 2024 14: 47
                        I don’t have a mustache. And I’m used to the idea that good is good. And vice versa. hi But compromise usually does not lead to good.
                      5. +3
                        26 May 2024 14: 32
                        Help the weak? Not help? Abstraction?
                        The Old Testament said, “Push up the one who stumbles.” I haven’t looked into this book myself, but that’s what my friend from the 80s, Romka Neimark, said.
                      6. +2
                        26 May 2024 14: 44
                        No. Nietzsche said it. hi
                        The author of the phrase that God died. Something like this.
                      7. +3
                        26 May 2024 15: 56
                        No. Nietzsche said it.
                        Maybe so. Moreover, I didn’t go to him in the PSS. Although everything can be expected from the ancient Jews. And the Internet is still a garbage dump, you need to be very critical and double-check. So just yesterday, my family had a dispute about whose dish was dumplings. It is clear that it came to us from the east. And “Vika” said that it was from ancient China (quite plausible), but the next phrase was simply killer - it said that 3000 years ago the Chinese put chili pepper in the filling. Victims of the Unified State Examination, no less.
                      8. +2
                        26 May 2024 16: 19
                        You will laugh, but? Even Pythagoras in his treatise *Feast* mentioned a dish vaguely reminiscent of dumplings. Like *....pieces of meat wrapped in noodles....*

                        Internet? Faithful assistant. The main thing is to look for more than one source of information. hi
                      9. +2
                        26 May 2024 18: 01
                        Quote: ArchiPhil
                        The main thing is to look for more than one source of information.

                        Three sources are FOR, three are against, and three are neutral...
                      10. +1
                        26 May 2024 18: 53
                        What is the head for? More precisely, what’s inside it? hi
                      11. -2
                        26 May 2024 23: 10
                        Quote: ArchiPhil
                        Also Pythagoras in his treatise *Symposium*
                        Wow, do you think that humanity knows the handwriting of Pythagoras? Seriously ?
                        Quote: ArchiPhil
                        Internet? Faithful assistant. The main thing is to look for more than one source of information.
                        Hmm, do you think that this is a case where quantity turns into quality? That is, if you just find a substance on the Internet, from which no matter how hard you try, you can’t make candy - it’s just a substance, but if you find the same substance on the Internet in several different sources, then it’s already candy, right? negative
                      12. 0
                        27 May 2024 07: 51
                        I wrote a little about something else. Didn't I? bully As for the choice of sources? The choice is yours.
                      13. 0
                        27 May 2024 19: 29
                        Quote: ArchiPhil
                        As for the choice of sources? The choice is yours.
                        So this is the problem. Neither I have any right to choose, nor you, nor anyone else. negative It’s like in a run-of-the-mill dispensary from the times of the late USSR - eat what they give you. what And they give only all kinds of fake narratives, it is not known when and it is not known by whom that was actually written. angry Yes, I am aware that “ancient authors” are indicated as the authors of this narrative. But, alas, humanity does not know the handwriting of a single “ancient author.” None at all. Including even such a “prolific author” as “J. Caesar”, who, as “historians know for sure,” wrote a lot of different things, from a huge number of notes to novels about the conduct of war. Moreover, again, historians “know for sure” that “J. Caesar” could write equally successfully with both his right and left hands. Moreover, each hand wrote on its own topic. And at the same time, “J. Caesar” could conduct a conversation on a third topic. So, not a single word written in his own hand remains from him. Yes
                      14. 0
                        27 May 2024 07: 47
                        mentioned a dish vaguely reminiscent of dumplings. Like *....pieces of meat wrapped in noodles....*
                        Phil, let even the Neanderthals invent dumplings, from mammoth meat, for example. Why did I write about dumplings? Vika writes that the Chinese put chili peppers there 3000 years ago, which is obvious nonsense. There were still 2500 years before the discovery of America.
                      15. 0
                        27 May 2024 07: 54
                        Good morning Sergey!
                        But I answered you in *personal*. Before the discovery of America by Europeans.
                      16. 0
                        26 May 2024 22: 46
                        And “Vika” said that it was from ancient China (quite plausible), but the next phrase was simply killer - it said that 3000 years ago the Chinese put chili pepper in the filling.

                        There is no such thing in Wikipedia.
              2. +4
                25 May 2024 12: 39
                VikNik. This is not your knowledge, is it? Who you are is already known. Who are you, Fantomas? bully Enemy? What I mean is that all knowledge is the fruit of many. Vershteen.
                1. +6
                  25 May 2024 14: 32
                  . Who are you, Fantomas?


                  Trojan horse! wassat )))
                  Maybe this will finally allow you to calm down?
                  So, she said, and it became easier after the morning chores, I even laughed!
                  Greetings, my Friend!
                  And hello to everyone on this lovely topic.
                  What would we do without the peaceful articles of Vyacheslav Olegovich! hi )))
                  1. +1
                    26 May 2024 08: 33
                    Good morning Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
                    My answer: we would meet at *Moscow* articles. bullyYou know who. laughing
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. +4
              25 May 2024 10: 24
              Thank you for lifting my spirits this morning!
            4. +4
              25 May 2024 10: 58
              Well, is that so? You should have written to Moscow, to Moscow! To the office of Her Highness. To create nobility for them is a sneeze, really. laughing And both would become well-born. bully
              But seriously, these games of *nobility* for rich and already successful people have always amazed me.
              1. +5
                25 May 2024 14: 51
                . But seriously, these games of *nobility* for rich and already successful people have always amazed me.

                Nothing amazing.
                The success of a rich person is determined by his ability to rise at least one social step higher. You can not? This means that it is uneven for those who, by the will of fate, have already nestled on it. And then you have an illusion, they say, I will receive a letter of nobility from Mr. Zakatov - Secretary of the Office of His Imperial Majesty, and a place on the coveted step is guaranteed. This was the case in the 90s, and it is partially true now. Happened? In the absence of feudal foundations, it is a delusion.
                1. +1
                  26 May 2024 08: 53
                  Oh, damn! And I, a sinner, kept remembering the name of this *Master*! lol And he turns out to be Zakatov!!! Speaking...boasting. bully
    3. +3
      25 May 2024 16: 42
      Sorry, I remembered
      Homer, Milton, Panikovsky...
    4. +3
      26 May 2024 05: 38
      “Hello, the Trojan horse has come to you!”


      Finally!!! "Hello horse! I'm Budyonny!" (c)))) wassat

      Hello, Vlad! drinks
      1. +3
        26 May 2024 08: 35
        I'm not a horse. I'm CSKA!
        Hi Constantine! drinks
        1. +2
          26 May 2024 08: 58
          . Hello, Konstantin!

          Well, I’m not Konstantin, but still - hello to all, my dear and beloved comrades in the struggle for survival! So let's drink in the morning to remain human in this tricky process! drinks wassat )))
          Let me introduce myself, Trojan Horse!
          Well, I just listened to the predictions of the monk Abel - not the one who from Valaam and performs wonderful things on the piano, but the ancient one - I listened and was convinced that the Lord provided that Abel with information, and I calculated on a piece of notebook paper according to the physics and biology of the Vertical progress and was ridiculed, because a person does not accept the unpleasant, and then throws up his hands and is horrified - the example of the Trojans is instructive... In short, good morning! love )))
          1. +3
            26 May 2024 09: 04
            And to you, dear, the same! But? Well, I don’t believe in monks. I don’t believe that’s all! But here’s a personal example. Not a monastic example, but still. I bought glasses two years ago, according to a prescription, but for 5000 thousand* of that money *!and?On *Walsbury*.Not advertising!Not Not advertising!Not advertising!They cost.....500.How do you like that? laughingAnd also glass!
            1. +2
              26 May 2024 09: 25
              . cost.....500. How do you like it?

              Yeah, got caught! crying (((
              Capitalism, however... The world has long passed through this stage, and we have only just begun to master the MMM system, consisting of various financial pyramids nested one into another, still making a variety of things available, but now they are rolling out a new Trojan horse to us in a beautiful guise - be glad that you have glasses and take care of them! Perhaps you don’t have such a suitcase to accommodate the money needed to buy new ones - such are the times, apparently.
              I had wonderful glasses for 100 rubles, once bought at the market, the temple broke off, I’m still grieving, I don’t know how to attach it...
              And yes, I had to contact Wildberries and give them 500 rubles for rainbow plastic windows into the world.
              1. +2
                26 May 2024 15: 40
                Yes. I got it. I believed in the magical power of the recipe, especially since there was a discount. Well, what? I learn from my mistakes. Because? Ellipsis. laughing Thank God it's rare. bully But it happens.
          2. +5
            26 May 2024 09: 43
            Hello to you too, Luda! smile love
            Well, call yourself, for company, a Trojan cat. This one is “for three”, although it walks on its own. drinks
            1. +2
              26 May 2024 10: 07
              . Well, call yourself, for company, a Trojan cat.

              Hello, hello, Kostya! drinks )))
              Just don’t dare to fall for Vlad’s provocation; below he admitted that as soon as you arrive, you will immediately publish photos of beauties. I was immediately concerned about the ban, so don’t even think about it! Let's talk about what we can - Trojan horses, as well as horses of other breeds. There are times when women next to them, even the most beautiful ones, seem ugly, hehe...
              1. +3
                26 May 2024 10: 36
                Below I gave the answer to the “provocateur”. wink
                It is for you love
            2. +1
              26 May 2024 19: 13
              Hello to all the Company from Fili Jr.
        2. +3
          26 May 2024 09: 36
          Hello Seryozha! smile
          So I wrote to Vlad, he spoke there for the Trojan gelding. laughing
          1. +3
            26 May 2024 09: 39
            Horses are horses. Either Trojan or army. Do not confuse Skye! CSKA is one and forever. bully
            1. +5
              26 May 2024 09: 47
              I won’t argue, because it’s not my thing at all. smile drinks
              1. +5
                26 May 2024 10: 10
                . I won’t argue, because it’s not my thing at all.


                "Trojan horse is an asshole!" - this is strong! wassat )))
    5. +4
      26 May 2024 15: 06
      And considering that sometimes “Trojan horses” come across in chess games, the story is still relevant.
      1. +5
        26 May 2024 16: 33
        . the story is still relevant

        Sergei, you won’t believe it, just two hours ago I thought that in our band of robbers there seemed to be a lack of you, but there should have been enough, and here you are!
        Greetings! drinks )))
        We need a fresh look at the role of the Trojan Horse in science, technology and even history wassat )))
        1. +4
          26 May 2024 16: 59
          Hello, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!

          As you can see, thoughts come true.
          1. +3
            26 May 2024 19: 06
            *pants turn.Pants turn.....Into elegant shorts!Sorry, small technical problem.*.
            Hello, Sergey! hi
            1. +1
              26 May 2024 21: 45
              Hi Seryozha!

              It's easier to walk through nettles with long trousers. And mosquitoes don't bother you that much.
        2. +2
          26 May 2024 19: 02
          Otherwise! And Sergey too...for *horses*. bully
          1. +2
            26 May 2024 19: 12
            . Otherwise!

            Otherwise! I was thinking a little here... People here say, but there was no Horse! And the main argument against it is that Homer was... blind! But look, blind doesn't mean deaf. The vast majority of our knowledge comes from the words of other people.
            1. +2
              26 May 2024 19: 17
              And? Continue your thought, please! And I’ll say differently. More precisely, not me, but the poet!*...It’s great that we’ve all gathered here today...*Isn’t it true? hi
        3. +2
          26 May 2024 19: 19
          Robbers? Unreal, but cool, right!
  3. +8
    25 May 2024 09: 54
    As a child (12-13 years old), I glued something like this out of matches after reading some simplified presentation of myths for teenagers. I still don’t know which one, because this presentation was without a cover and some of the pages. But I read it, and re-read it, and got into it. And so much so that for two months the house stank of all available adhesives and matches and their trimmings were lying everywhere. The result was something that resembled a long-legged dog with an ostrich tail, a strange orange color from the unsuccessful tinting of red and yellow gouache. At first I was proud, then I cooled down, then I assessed it critically, then I lost interest, and after the barbaric reprisal against the conic by my young nephew, my indifference would have been the envy of the most reprobate stoics
  4. +4
    25 May 2024 10: 25
    According to Stesichorus, there were 100 warriors inside, the numbers are called 20, 23, or only 9, which are named, however, all by name: Menelaus, Odysseus, Diomedes, Thersander, Sfenel, Acamant, Foant, Machaon and Neoptolemus.

    “Family lists” of the “Greek sabotage group” are presented by four authors, Quintus Smyrnaeus - 30 people, Gaius Julius Hyginus - 9, Tryphiodorus and John Tzetzes - 23 each.
    1. +7
      25 May 2024 12: 06
      You are very informative. Yes, sir. Hence the question. Should I inform you further, my dear? Or is that enough? This is a Russian site. There/you understood/saw that in the end the Russians will understand that you, my dear,.....You.. ...It happens
  5. +8
    25 May 2024 12: 38
    I read an article in which some modern scholars claim that this episode of historical myth is the result of a misunderstanding due to mistranslation. In ancient Greek, horse is spelled HIPPOS, but the Phoenician language had a word for ship, and it was also spelled HIPPOS. And from here they say that in fact it could be a ship, and not a horse. Whether it's true or not, they say it might be true.
    1. +5
      25 May 2024 13: 26
      I read an article in which some modern scholars claim that this episode of historical myth is the result of a misunderstanding due to mistranslation

      And not only translation. Some scientists even believe that Trojan Horse is the name of a siege machine.
    2. +2
      25 May 2024 22: 28
      but the Phoenician language had a word for ship, and it was also written HYPPOS.

      A beautiful version, but in the time period described by Homer, the Phoenician warship “horse,” like the Greek “miners (uniremes),” did not have a deck. Direms (biremes) appeared during the life of Homer, and they did not have a solid deck, nor did they have a hold (where wars could hide). Of the Phoenician ships, merchant ships had a hold, but they were called “tub,” which is far from “horse (hippos).
  6. +9
    25 May 2024 17: 23
    In one work of fiction, it was not a horse, but the world's first siege tower, along which the Greeks climbed the walls of Troy. It’s just that later, after centuries, the details were forgotten, and in the memory of descendants only a strange wooden structure remained, which was explained in a similar way)))
    1. +4
      25 May 2024 19: 36
      Taking into account the following:
      1. Homer was blind.
      2. The works attributed to him describe events approximately three centuries ago and are essentially a product of oral creativity.
      3. The Iliad and Odyssey were written down on paper after his death.
      4. ...
      There was no Trojan horse, originally there was a CAT. Further fashionable in the spirit of “the masters of the West, the archives of the Vatican and the enemies of the communists”...
      Dear Ivan is right in one thing, that the Trojan Horse is a kind of wooden machine that was used once in a long time ago. Otherwise, the weapons, ships and life described by Homer are the realities of the reality around him. The works closest in spirit and outline to the Iliad are Sagas and Epics. At the same time, Homer is unsurpassed in describing the objective world. Perhaps just because he was blind.
      1. +5
        25 May 2024 19: 38
        I heard Homer
        Was not a Greek, but a Sumerian,
        Didn't get along with the boss
        Noisy for the truth.

        kept away
        From all galleys
        And looking for women
        Bigger size...

        The priests were outraged:
        What kind of Greek are you?
        Wine on my mind
        Yes ornate
        Yes sin!

        You serve the youths
        bad example,
        Famous writer,
        Comrade Homer...

        Sergey Karatov
        1. +5
          25 May 2024 20: 16
          In fact, it doesn’t matter whether there was a horse or not. It is important that in the secondary school curriculum there is a mention of the Iliad and Odyssey, and in the 5th grade, when children are young. They are interested in seeing something real, and not speculating about what they have not seen before. And now the children of at least one school have had such an opportunity. This will make them at least a little smarter, more educated, more cultured. This is important. And “was” was not “was” - this “daisy” has no meaning at all.
          1. +5
            25 May 2024 22: 11
            And “was” not “was” - this “daisy”

            Not the Cat is cooler, he is fluffy, loves milk and can also meow. laughing
            Now to the point. Today, children are brought up with an abundance of available information. “The story of the Trojan Horse” is just a scratch in the information array; in your childhood more than half a century ago, its significance was much more significant and brighter, since a number of segments of information were missing in the trailer (Internet, television), and accessibility was much lower.
            I’m younger and I admit to my seniority that I learned about the Trojan horse from a cartoon. To be honest, I was more shocked when in 1995 I caught a “Trojan horse” on my computer.
            And if we consider the meaning of the “Trojan Horse” for a conditional high school student in 1850? Given the paucity of information availability, a maximum of 10 books at home (2-3 of them on a religious topic) is not a touch, like milking me, or a bright stroke for you and Ivan, but an “event”!!! Considering that in history lessons they studied the political map of Ancient Greece. And in the future, university education presupposed knowledge of the ancient Greek language.
            Now let's get serious. My personal opinion is that for a teenager, Homer’s works are an order of magnitude more harmless than the rubbish on the Internet.
            About four years ago, three little kids came to my workshop asking me to make them slingshots. I made them promise not to shoot at the cats. They consulted, apparently there were plans, but agreed. Reluctantly, he killed the hot water bottle and rolled up three slingshots. How then everyone tore me down, from hooligan mothers and grandmothers to dena. Since without leaving the workshop, the first shot they gave me was a double-glazed window.
            Why did I write this? The competence of transferring experience from older children to younger ones is simply lost today. The role of kindergartens and schools is increasing, while the importance of the street is decreasing. As a child, I didn’t need a milling machine, a drill and PVA glue to make a slingshot. The main thing is to find a heating pad in a landfill (preferably a red one). The rest was sawn and cut with a simple knife. All this is to get you thinking. Including about your work Vyacheslav and Ivan in the field of creativity.
            Well, somewhere like that.
            1. +2
              26 May 2024 06: 55
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Well, somewhere like that.

              Thanks for the interesting comment. But the dynamics of learning: a gymnasium of the late 19th century - ALL crusades. Soviet school of the 50s - 3 crusades. School of the 90s - two trips. This is a common theme now.
        2. +3
          25 May 2024 21: 21
          Thank you Ivan for the poem! It’s a pity Uncle Kostya is not there, he would have decorated the branch with a couple of photographs of beauties that Homer (and others) would not have passed by! tongue
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. +3
            26 May 2024 10: 33
            In general, no one knows a damn thing about history. There was no Horse! Lena the Beautiful adored cats and was given the Trojan Cat as a gift!
            But, alas, I didn’t find Lenka’s nudity in the sculpture, sorry. laughing
            1. +2
              26 May 2024 10: 47
              . Unfortunately, I didn’t find Lenka’s nudity in the sculpture, sorry.

              She was not considered a goddess, and therefore the marble image was not created. And here are the horses...
              Do those present know that there are horses with silver hair? In the rays of the sun it is an awe-inspiring sight. But there are only about a hundred of them left, and the time will come when only memories of them will remain.
              A tenacious man, however!
              1. +2
                26 May 2024 10: 52
                A tenacious man, however!

                Scorpio is tenacious; with radiation of 1000 roentgens, it begins to multiply intensively. laughing
                1. +4
                  26 May 2024 11: 40
                  . Scorpio is tenacious

                  Scorpio is not able to change the conditions of its existence. Create conditions that are different from those in which the scorpion now lives, but acceptable for humans, and the scorpion will die. And man is capable of changing conditions. Without getting up from the couch or boss's chair. Due to the immortal idea of ​​the Trojan Horse. An IT specialist will launch a “Trojan” into someone’s program and get rich, and the boss will launch a Trojan horse in the form of his employee into some subordinate institution, and that institution will face dire consequences for him due to changes in favor of that boss. The example is fresh and flashy. Yes it has always been like this! Let's take the history of espionage - Trojans. Beautiful - in "The meeting place cannot be changed."
                  1. +4
                    26 May 2024 16: 57
                    "Damp and disturbing for the forest and field
                    Sometimes flying around
                    It is impossible to change voluntarily
                    Habitat" (c).
                  2. +3
                    26 May 2024 16: 57
                    *....it seems to us, dear man, that you are a snitch....*
                    From there. bully
                    Vovka...Sharapov...in character
                2. +3
                  26 May 2024 16: 26
                  Cockroaches! Two years ago there weren’t any. And? An enemy tribe appeared. am
            2. +3
              26 May 2024 15: 14
              And from this moment on, cats who cross the street are not welcome.

              Probably the transition location is wrong.
              1. +3
                26 May 2024 15: 16
                Cats are always to blame for everything, especially black ones. wink
                1. +4
                  26 May 2024 15: 19
                  “But clairvoyants - as well as eyewitnesses -
                  In all ages people have been burned at the stake ”(c).
            3. +4
              26 May 2024 17: 24
              History? What is this? laughing
              1. +2
                26 May 2024 19: 19
                . History? What is this?

                Um... Hmmm...
                Let's put it this way - a presentation of indisputable facts in their chronological sequence, on the basis of which in subsequent times directly opposite conclusions are drawn wassat )))
                1. +2
                  26 May 2024 19: 23
                  Wow! that’s tricky. This is something that no one has seen and will never see. But? It is recognized as a fact.
                  1. +2
                    26 May 2024 19: 37
                    . Wow! that’s tricky. This is something that no one has seen and will never see. But? It is recognized as a fact.

                    In my unprofessional opinion, historical science should study the origins of modern civilizations and, on the basis of indisputable facts, prove the unproductiveness of imperialist wars and open or covert colonial policies - all this is in the past, outdated, in the trash!
                    1. +2
                      26 May 2024 19: 41
                      I will answer. But? Later. Alas and ah.
                    2. 0
                      26 May 2024 23: 02
                      Quote: depressant
                      historical science
                      Sorry, but for example “political science”; "political economy"; "scientific communism"; "Dianetics"; "theology", etc. - is this also “science”?
                2. 0
                  26 May 2024 23: 00
                  Quote: depressant
                  Let's just say this - a statement of indisputable facts
                  I wonder what, in your opinion, in History, let’s say, the century before the 14th, falls under the definition of “indisputable fact”?
              2. +4
                26 May 2024 20: 52
                There are different stories...
                There is “The History of the Russian State from Gostomysl to Timashev” - this is one story.
                And there is a story that you get caught up in regardless of your own desires - and “that’s a completely different story.” This, for example, was at one time at the Patriarchal...
  7. +4
    26 May 2024 17: 00
    Quote: Anton Yu
    You wrote a hypothesis, and I have established what archaeologists have established.
    And what did archaeologists actually establish? Even the fact that the Greeks made a campaign against Troy is just a legend.
    So:
    1. The fact of the Greeks’ campaign against Troy has no documentary evidence or at least narrative evidence written at least around that same time.
    2. The fact that Troy is located where Schliemann found it is also just a version of Schliemann himself.
    What did the “archaeologists” establish?
    Archaeologists have found that in northwestern Turkey there is a hill on which people lived since ancient times. On this hill, people first lived just like that, and then created an orderly settlement. The settlement was then surrounded by an outer protective wall. These settlements were periodically destroyed both by enemies and for other reasons. Of course, in this earthquake-prone area, the settlements on this hill, as well as on all the surrounding hills and not only, in short, absolutely all of these settlements were periodically subject to destruction during earthquakes.
    That's all.
    1. +3
      26 May 2024 17: 11
      If I'm not mistaken, there were several Troys there? hi According to Manfred Korfman's excavations?
      1. +3
        26 May 2024 17: 15
        Nine of them. Well, or without the first settlement - eight.
    2. +4
      26 May 2024 19: 01
      And what did archaeologists actually establish?

      Dear Sergey, perhaps there is no point in exposing what has not been proven. By fighting the myth of the Trojan War, you become like atheists who deny God. I already wrote above that essentially the works of Homer describe the material culture of the 7-8 centuries BC. The events of the Iliad and Odyssey are traditionally attributed to two or three centuries earlier. Their reliability is not known, but there is also no reason to believe that this could not have happened. The plots of Homer's poems are reflected in subsequent eras and works of both Greek and Roman authors. Right down to sculptures of Homer himself, images of ships, gods, heroes and that very horse. I read the version about the aveduct in a Soviet magazine with notes from the editor, who listed sources in ancient Greek that have survived to this day. There was also a version about a Phoenician “horse” ship and siege engines. With the ships, I recognize the version as invalid based on my knowledge “they did not have unified decks and holds.” Regarding the siege engine, I honestly don’t know. On the other hand, why refute the existing version if it is simple and understandable.
      For example, the “struggle of Soviet engineers” with multi-tiered ships, who first came up with a non-existent design, and then began to prove its unreality.
      1. +2
        26 May 2024 19: 28
        Vlad! Every year they dig and? They find something. And Troy was clearly not alone. As well as the fact that in Moscow... it’s raining!!! It’s raining, damn it. Well, God bless him, really.
        1. +2
          26 May 2024 19: 40
          Good evening Phil!
          Seriously, “a sign indicating Troy Homer was here” has not yet been found. Research confirms the presence of human settlements, which can be considered the mythical Troy. Scientists constantly confirm something and refute something. In fact, there is a process of cognition that is far from complete. Is it good or bad? Definitely excellent. Are you sure this is Troy? Alas, there is no clear evidence. So, as in the psychological dilemma - “is the glass half empty or half full”? You and I are optimists, some are pessimists or nihilists. However, the worst thing to be probably is to not give a damn!!!
          1. +3
            26 May 2024 20: 17
            And why Phil? I'm Sergey. Why? You're right, my friend, it's a matter of specialists.
            1. +2
              26 May 2024 22: 26
              Sergey, I’m being sarcastic, for God’s sake, I’m using my old nickname.
          2. +3
            26 May 2024 21: 55
            “a sign indicating that Troy Homer was here” has not yet been found.

            Or - “Homer’s Troy was not here” - it’s not there either, I mean the tablet. wink drinks
      2. +2
        26 May 2024 19: 39
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        By fighting the myth of the Trojan War, you become like atheists who deny God.
        So I am an atheist. Personally, I didn’t keep a damn thing in my pocket either when I joined the Octobrists, or when I joined the Pioneers, or when I joined the Komsomol. And I also passed tests on atheism without a fig in my pocket. hi
        PS I haven’t been at war with anyone for a long time. So, I come to awaken your conscience. But alas, most often to no avail. sad
        1. +2
          26 May 2024 19: 53
          I personally made the decision to be baptized in 1996. Whether I believed in God, I don’t know. In fact, I try to follow the basic canons of the Orthodox faith, since they are close to me in spirit and worldview.
          The main rule is to remain yourself and not do to others what you would not regret doing to yourself.
          Somewhere like that.
          1. +2
            26 May 2024 20: 12
            It so happened that in 1988 I oversaw some events for one organization that took place as part of the celebration of the 1000th anniversary of the baptism of Rus'. And, apparently, he supervised it well, since then the management even received a letter of gratitude. And personally, one religious figure who was in touch with me (by the way, Pimen’s former personal secretary, who shortly before the celebration went “to earth” so to speak (received some kind of cool parish) and was recalled while organizing the festivities), said, that since I had done a good job at this festival, it now makes absolutely no difference whether I accept baptism or not. And he also added that “God doesn’t care at all whether a person has been baptized or not, the main thing is that the person lives according to his conscience, then the soul will always be pure.”
            1. +4
              26 May 2024 20: 24
              And this is the answer from a *specialist*. I respect you! hi
            2. +3
              26 May 2024 20: 37
              Your soul is pure. But? Doesn’t this remind you: * Your application has been accepted. Wait for a response *.
          2. +4
            26 May 2024 20: 31
            God? Where was he when such things exist? And mournful ones. As?
        2. +4
          26 May 2024 20: 28
          Come on! Well, I believe with peonyEria. And -Octobers?
  8. Alf
    +3
    26 May 2024 23: 26
    The maximum number named is simply amazing - according to the Little Iliad, there were 3000 of them, which is clearly incredible.
  9. 0
    30 May 2024 12: 53
    Doing something like this for a school is great! As a child, I myself made the Tower Bridge from plasticine for the English classroom of our school, and my mother, possessing a wonderful coloratura soprano, sang arias from “Eugene Onegin” for her students in Russian and literature lessons. Her students many years later recalled these lessons with delight .
  10. 0
    14 June 2024 10: 50
    There was a newspaper called “Socialist Industry”, in which I read a version that the horse could be understood as a siege tower that the Greeks left for the night near Troy, so the Trojans could not stand it and tried to snatch the tower, and a wooden horse, why is it?