Military Review

Star Wars on the land of Baikonur

125
Star Wars on the land of BaikonurThe leaders of Russia and Kazakhstan agreed on the further joint mutually beneficial use of the Baikonur cosmodrome - this statement was made following the visit of Kazakh President Nursultan Nazarbayev to Moscow. The parameters of the agreements reached are not made public. But the conflicts and disagreements around the cosmodrome that preceded these agreements “flowed” into the press very actively.


One can say that the disagreements of Moscow and Astana have acquired a "cosmic" scale. On the eve of Nazarbayev’s visit to Moscow, Kazakhstan announced its intention to revise the current agreement, reduce the number of launches of the Proton rocket and raised the issue of a phased transfer of Baikonur to Astana. In response, Russia threatened to end cooperation on all joint projects in the field of space. Foreign ministries of the two countries exchanged notes. The future of the cosmodrome was discussed by the ministers of foreign affairs of Russia and Kazakhstan Sergey Lavrov and Yerlan Idrisov and the interstate commission at the level of deputy prime ministers of the two countries Igor Shuvalov and Kairat Kelimbetov.

It is not the first time that Kazakhstan and Russia are sorting out relations on using the Baikonur cosmodrome. The peculiarity of the current situation is that the dirt was taken from the hut. The note of the Russian Foreign Ministry was made public, in which Smolensk Square demanded to clarify the statements of Talgat Musabayev, head of Kazkosmos, that Kazakhstan imposes restrictions on launching Proton-M launch vehicles: they should now not be 14, but 12 per year . The reason is allegedly pollution. In this regard, Kazakhstan decided to unilaterally revise the agreement on the lease of the Baikonur cosmodrome by Russia.

Soot from the hut

“The agreement on the lease of Baikonur was made in 1994 year and worked its own. President Nursultan Nazarbayev set the task to develop a new comprehensive agreement on the Baikonur complex, ”Talgat Musabayev said in December. True, he later disowned his words, and the Kazakh Foreign Ministry advised journalists “not to create a rush around the situation.” Anyway, the Foreign Ministries of the two countries managed to exchange notes. Russia threatened Kazakhstan to end cooperation in space exploration on all joint projects.

The Kazakh Foreign Ministry reported that it did not receive any notes. Yerlan Idrisov, who urgently flew to Moscow, said that Astana does not intend to refuse to cooperate with Russia in the space industry. Guilty of everything, as usual, were the journalists who, they say, incorrectly interpreted the words of the head of Kazcosmos.

Roskosmos, in turn, explained that limiting the number of launches of spacecraft with Proton-M missiles at 2013 did not allow fulfillment of contractual obligations under five commercial programs, which is fraught with termination of international contracts and returning 500 million dollars to customers. If the agreement fails, Roskosmos will demand compensation from the Kazakh side.

However, Sergey Lavrov suggested not to attach importance to “ordinary musical correspondence”. “Questions arise, they need to be addressed. And earlier there were questions about the number of launches of Proton launch vehicles - this is due to Kazakhstan’s concern over the environmental consequences of these processes. The Russian side is doing everything necessary to improve the environmental aspects. The Proton missiles have already been upgraded, and we have not additionally agreed on the number of launches for the first year, ”said Lavrov.

Felled Topolek

With the collapse of the USSR, hard times came for Baikonur. The spaceport was on the territory of sovereign Kazakhstan. The country's leadership declared Baikonur its national treasure and tried to “attach” it with the maximum benefit. Russia, as the successor of the USSR, made obviously impracticable requirements on the conditions of operation of the cosmodrome. The negotiated rental amount reached seven billion dollars a year. In addition, Kazakh politicians offered Russia to pay for the damage caused by rocket launches, according to the so-called “environmental contribution”. Moscow, for its part, was ready to pay for the rent of Baikonur about 80 million dollars a year.

Finally, in 1994, Russia and Kazakhstan managed to agree. An agreement was signed on the basic principles and conditions for the use of the Baikonur cosmodrome for a period of 20 years. Russia undertook to pay 115 millions of dollars annually for rent, half of this amount was in cash, and the rest was read out by return services to Russia, as well as writing off Kazakhstan’s debts. “Later more than once disputes arose between Russia and Kazakhstan on the exploitation of Baikonur,” said Azhdar Kurtov, leading expert at the Russian Institute for Strategic Studies. There was a period when the Kazakh authorities prohibited, due to unsuccessful launches, launches of Proton class missiles. For the Dnepr launch vehicle crash in 2006, Russia paid 1,1 a million dollars, for a Proton that fell in 2007, 8 million.

According to Kurtov, the current aggravation of “cosmic” relations between the two neighboring countries is connected with the firm desire of Kazakhstan to pave its own path to a near-earth orbit. A joint venture was created that developed the Baiterek (Topolek) national project: launchers for Angara Russian missiles. However, this project did not meet Russian interests. In Moscow, it was decided that Angara will be launched not from Baikonur, but from the new Vostochny cosmodrome, which is being built in the Amur Region.

According to Azhdar Kurtov, the decision of Russia is natural, since “it is impossible to develop supernovae technologies that are inevitably related to the country's defense capability, and rely on the leadership of Kazakhstan: will it allow launches or not”. Then Astana and tightened the rhetoric and demanded to revise the terms of the lease upward. The parties concluded a new contract before 2050 of the year, according to which Russia pays 115 million dollars a year to Kazakhstan as rent for the use of Baikonur, invests 100 million into the operation and modernization of its facilities and 170 million each year to maintain and develop the spaceport infrastructure and cities.

В stories with “Angara” Russia is also not without sin, says Alexander Sobyanin, head of the Association for Border Cooperation. In a conversation with Echo, he recalled that in December 2004 of the year, an agreement was signed on the creation of the Baiterek rocket and space complex to launch Angara launch vehicles. But the deadlines for the execution of the work were violated by the Russian side, and the cost of the project was increased seven times and brought to almost two billion dollars. Initially, it was planned that Angara would fly up in 2008, but later Moscow postponed the deadlines to 2010 — 2011 years, but it would not fly up in 2013 either. This project is simply unprofitable for Russia, and Angara, it seems, no one is going to do now.

In Astana, they understood this and asked to keep the “Baiterek” program and reorient in it to Zenith type rockets. “Some representatives of the Russian side perceived this approach of the Kazakh partners as a surrender and are trying to put even more pressure on them,” believes Sobyanin. - But after all, Astana was the first to compromise. It is necessary to adequately evaluate it and move on together. "

Compromise is inevitable

Nevertheless, the leadership of the two countries believe that the existing contradictions are not a reason to revise a long-term agreement on cooperation in the space sphere, which must be strictly observed.

In Kazakhstan, many are convinced that the increased tension in relations between Astana and Moscow in the space sphere is unprofitable for any of the parties. “For Russia, this is not only a space project, but also a certain political component of its presence in Kazakhstan,” said Dosym Satpayev, director of the Risk Assessment Group, in an interview with Echo. “Kazakhstan, in turn, has every right to proceed from its national interests and be more demanding.”

Russia's statement about the construction of its own Vostochny cosmodrome radically changes the role of Baikonur in the implementation of its space programs. All federal orders for launches of defense and manned satellites that are currently being carried out from Baikonur are likely to be transferred to Vostochny. In any case, this is assumed in Astana, where they see Russia's inevitable departure from Baikonur. In Moscow, they don’t hide their plans to transfer to Vostochny at least military launches before 2020.

Kazakhstan, assessing itself as a space power, began to prepare for the independent management of Baikonur. Back in 2008, Prime Minister Karim Massimov instructed Kazkosmos to prepare a plan for the development of the cosmodrome after 2016, but without the active participation of Russia. However, experts say that the spaceport is designed to operate exactly the Russian space technology. “Russia cannot be replaced at Baikonur. This could be done only if Kazakhstan would have become a highly developed power, created its own space exploration school. For now, he only keeps abreast of the financial flows, ”Ajdar Kurtov believes.

Talgat Musabayev believes that with Russia or without Russia, but Baikonur should not become useless: "Kazakhstan itself begins its work in this direction and invests certain funds for this." According to him, 90 billion tenge, or about 18 billion rubles, is allocated from the country's budget for the development of the space industry. “I don’t know how cooperation with other states will develop, what forms of maintenance of this cosmodrome will be in the future, maybe it will be rent. But, according to our forecasts, Baikonur should live and develop, ”said Musabayev. Astana is actively negotiating with many countries on this matter. Already signed agreements with France, Israel and Ukraine.

According to Alexander Sobyanin, Kazakhstan declares itself an ally of Russia, while he himself perceives the situation as a forced dependence on Moscow, which must be overcome so carefully that Russia remains at Baikonur. “Astana must understand that it is impossible to replace the Russian space program, neither American, nor Chinese, nor any other. Whether the Kazakhs like it or not, nobody will replace the Russians at the cosmodrome, ”says Sobyanin.

Azhdar Kurtov, for his part, is convinced that Russia, even with the commissioning of the Vostochny cosmodrome, will not leave Baikonur completely. Therefore, the compromise reached by the presidents of the two countries was inevitable. Azhdar Kurtov is sure: "Russia does not have much success in the post-Soviet space, so the Kremlin will not want to lose Kazakhstan and, for this, will most likely make some concessions."

Baikonur: a story with geography

The decision to build a landfill for astronautics and testing of combat intercontinental ballistic missiles in the USSR was adopted in 1953. When choosing a place, two factors were mainly taken into account: proximity to the equator and safety when falling parts of aircraft. The Kazakh steppe became the most suitable. The construction site began to be built in the 1955 year near the Tyuratam junction near Syrdarya and the Moscow-Tashkent railway line. The Kazakh aul Baikonur, which gave the name to the cosmodrome, was in fact about 300 kilometers away: they wanted to misinform the potential enemy with the name.

The spaceport was built in record time: the 15 of May 1957 was already here, the first launch of the P-7 rocket created by Korolev was carried out here. 12 April 1961 from Baikonur was launched into space on the Vostok ship by the first Earthman, Yuri Gagarin. The spaceport extends 85 kilometers from north to south and 125 kilometers from west to east. It also includes fields of falling waste media stages: 22 plot of the total area 4,8 million hectares. The launch site contains launch pads for all main types of Russian launch vehicles: Proton, Zenit, Energy, Lightning, Cyclone, Soyuz, Vostok. The main objects are 52 launch complexes, 34 technical positions, three computing centers, two mechanical assembly plants, two airfields, and a CHP plant. Approximately 30 percent of military launches are carried out from Baikonur.
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  1. Frigate
    Frigate 15 February 2013 09: 15
    -6
    Article in one word - nagging Roscosmos's excuse.

    Then what feature sense to build an eastern
    1. ia-ai00
      ia-ai00 15 February 2013 10: 30
      +13
      And the meaning is that Russia should not ask whether it is possible to launch a rocket or not, in order to protect itself, and not depend on the "mood" of the partners, especially since in Kazakhstan now the BRITANS and the US GOSDEP are advisors ...
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 10: 52
        .
        Quote: ia-ai00
        And the meaning is that Russia should not ask whether it is possible to launch a rocket or not, in order to protect itself, and not depend on the "mood" of the partners, especially since in Kazakhstan now the BRITANS and the US GOSDEP are advisors ...

        And then the "mood of partners" ??? In the Russian-Kazakh space relations, there are only Russian "shoals"! It is the Russians who violate agreements and contracts in every case.
        And where does the "advisers" come in? Do you know why Tony Blair works for Nazarbayev? Just decided to blurt out something? Sometimes chewing is better than talking.
        1. ia-ai00
          ia-ai00 15 February 2013 11: 03
          +5
          Well what can I tell you - myopic! THERE BLEEEE was, for example, an adviser to Gaddafi ...
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 11: 25
            -2
            Quote: ia-ai00
            Well what can I tell you - myopic! THERE BLEEEE was, for example, an adviser to Gaddafi ...

            We do not need Western advice on internal governance or on advising on relations with allies. We need Blair to lobby for Kazakh interests in their territory. Similarly, Kazakhstan feeds a bunch of lobbyists at the White House in the United States (senators and owners of major American newspapers).
            Do you understand the difference?
            Z.Y. Russia for similar purposes, ex-Chancellor Schroeder feeds.
          2. Frigate
            Frigate 15 February 2013 18: 04
            -4
            Quote: ia-ai00
            Well what can I tell you - myopic! THERE BLEEEE was, for example, an adviser to Gaddafi ...

            Dear, why did you switch to this?
      2. Frigate
        Frigate 15 February 2013 18: 03
        -2
        Quote: ia-ai00

        And the meaning is that Russia should not ask whether it is possible to launch a rocket or not, in order to protect itself, and not depend on the "mood" of the partners, especially since in Kazakhstan now the BRITANS and the US GOSDEP are advisors ...

        You already read a lot of provocative press
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 10: 30
      -7
      The same impression was left of the article. Although Panfilova usually writes good, well-balanced articles, she apparently relied solely on semi-hysterical articles by Russian media that defended the schools of Roscosmos.

      The article contains a bunch of veiled accusations against Kazakhstan - "allegedly environmental damage", "unilaterally", etc.
      The ecology suffers in the event of a missile fall (moreover, on those lands where grain, strategically important for KZ), is a fact. The same fact is that Russia asked for new areas for the fall of parts from missiles (and a few years ago the "proton" generally crashed less than 80 km from Zhezkazgan, in which Nazarbayev was located; I would have looked at the reaction of Russia if an American missile had fallen into 80 km from Tolyatti).

      In addition, Kazakhstan did not conduct its initiatives unilaterally, but suggested that Russia change the treaties for the general benefit. One can only withdraw from agreements unilaterally.

      Musabaev’s words were very freely interpreted by Russian journalists. The exact wording of his speech in the Parliament of Kazakhstan is on the Internet. The impression of reading the full text is radically different than that of pulling phrases out of context, seasoned with fictional sensations.

      Why is this loud phrase "Russia threatened to stop cooperation" if Russia has actually already failed all joint projects with Kazakhstan?

      Azhdar Kurtov is a stinker, not an expert. I am familiar with all of his opuses regarding the countries of Central Asia since the 90s. Everywhere he made Kazakhstan an enemy of Russia, and simply prophesied the imminent death of Kazakhstan as a state. Now he seems to have moderated his ardor a little, but on the whole he still exposes Kazakhstan everywhere in a very negative light.

      Under the current lease agreement for Baikonur, Russia did not pay more to Kazakhstan! The same 115 million dollars (which are still not paid in cash, but repaid through the training of Kazakhstani cadets in Russian universities). And the mentioned 100 and 170 million are simply officially recorded on paper, and this money is not spent in favor of Kazakhstan, but on the banal maintenance of the infrastructure of the leased city and the cosmodrome. Kazakhs from this 270 million infrastructure money - neither hot nor cold.

      What a derogatory "Poplar"? Baiterek is not just a "poplar", it is a "Sacred Poplar" - a tree of life. Kurtov also made a mess with the translation into Russian.
      As for the Baiterek project itself, this is pure scam from the Russian side. And all that Kurtov (and Panfilova under his influence) wrote here on this topic is verbiage in order to whitewash the thieves and balabols from Roscosmos.
      1. in reserve
        in reserve 15 February 2013 12: 07
        +2

        Marek Rozny
        Under the current lease agreement for Baikonur, Russia did not pay more to Kazakhstan! The same 115 million dollars (which are still not paid in cash, but repaid through the training of Kazakhstani cadets in Russian universities). And the mentioned 100 and 170 million are simply officially recorded on paper, and this money is not spent in favor of Kazakhstan, but on the banal maintenance of the infrastructure of the leased city and the cosmodrome. Kazakhs from this 270 million infrastructure money - neither hot nor cold.


        This is where such information comes from. Do you oversee financial flows from Russia to Kakhzakhstan?
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 12: 13
          -1
          This information is well known and is in the public domain.

          Z.Y. If it matters, then yes - for three years he worked in the department that is responsible for the budget of the Republic of Kazakhstan.
          1. ultra
            ultra 15 February 2013 22: 54
            +3
            Well now it’s clear why there are problems in the Republic of Kazakhstan!
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 23: 49
              -1
              Are you an expert on the budgetary system of Kazakhstan? That is why Russian businessmen and officials look with envy at the tax and other financial laws of Kazakhstan. Maybe the budget system was not so badly built, that our regions are not particularly outraged by the "unfair budget distribution", and Russian business is slowly flowing into Kazakhstan?
      2. Papakiko
        Papakiko 15 February 2013 17: 13
        +1
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        As for the Baiterek project itself, this is pure scam from the Russian side. And all that Kurtov (and Panfilova under his influence) wrote here on this topic is verbiage in order to whitewash the thieves and balabols from Roscosmos.

        More than once this topic was raised and people threw words about "kidalovo".
        But none of these little men bothered to post photos and other documents confirming the "work" of Kazakhstan in this field. Namely, the work on the launch complex and on the infrastructure of Baikonur or Baiterek.
        Below is an excerpt from the Kazkosmos website
        Currently, the issue of equal financial participation of the Kazakh and Russian parties in the project for the creation of the Baiterek KRK is being worked out. As the contribution of the Russian side, financing by the Russian side of the development of design documentation and the creation of the constituent parts (elements) of the complex, which in accordance with the legislation of the Russian Federation cannot be transferred for operation to the Kazakh side, is considered.
        http://kazcosmos.gov.kz/ru/2012/nashi-proekty/sozdanie-kosmicheskogo-raketnogo-k
        ompleksa- “bajterek” -na-kosmodrome- “bajkonur .html

        and here, with regard to the agreement on the "Sacred Poplar":
        http://kazcosmos.gov.kz/ru/international/sotrudnichestvo-s-rossijskoj-federaczie
        j.html
        hi
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 23: 52
          -1
          in a nutshell: Russia promised to build a rocket by a certain date and for a certain amount. Kazakhstan paid the proposed amount, but did not receive either a rocket or a clear explanation of why there was allegedly not enough money.

          in addition, Russia disgusted the Kazakhs on other space projects or simply made a blunder (Ishim, KazSat-1, supplies of information systems, etc.)
          1. Papakiko
            Papakiko 17 February 2013 17: 39
            0
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            in a nutshell: Russia promised to build a rocket by a certain date and for a certain amount. Kazakhstan paid the exposed amount, but did not receive either a rocket or a clear explanation of why there was allegedly not enough money. In addition, Russia disgusted the Kazakhs on other space projects or simply made a blunder (Ishim, KazSat-1, supplies of information systems, etc. )

            Not two words came out, but in the district of 50
            And again blah blah blah, what is your evidence?
            Specifically, when, to whom, how much and for what (Payer) payments were made (Beneficiary).
            What obligations does the Recipient accept and what is the Customer obligated to pay?
  2. Nomad
    Nomad 15 February 2013 10: 07
    +3
    All points over i have already been placed, and this was announced at the highest level. The roots of the problem were clearly and clearly described in my comments on this site by my compatriot under the nickname Marek Rozny, who are really interested, find and read before, as usual, resenting unreliable allies.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 10: 39
      0
      Thanks, Nomad.
    2. Ascetic
      Ascetic 15 February 2013 19: 31
      +5
      Quote: Nomad
      All points over i have already been placed, and this was announced at the highest level.


      The joint action plan of Kazakhstan and Russia for 2013-2015

      The Republic of Kazakhstan and the Russian Federation, guided by the desire to comprehensively strengthen relations of strategic partnership and alliance on the basis of friendship, good neighborliness and mutual benefit, consistently implementing the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Mutual Assistance between the Republic of Kazakhstan and the Russian Federation of May 25, 1992, the Declaration between the Republic Kazakhstan and the Russian Federation on eternal friendship and alliance oriented in the 6st century, dated July 1998, 2013, striving to increase the effectiveness of interaction in all areas of bilateral and multilateral cooperation, relying on an impressive legal base of bilateral cooperation, which continues to be constantly improved, in In order to progressively develop the Kazakh-Russian relations in the new economic conditions associated with the creation of the Customs Union and the Common Economic Space, we identified the following priority measures to further deepen the integration on the interaction of Kazakhstan and Russia, which must be undertaken in 2015-XNUMX:
      Space Cooperation
      15. Continue work on the implementation of the Baiterek project on the basis of the Zenit launch vehicle at the Baikonur Cosmodrome.
      Performers:
      from the Kazakhstan side - the National Space Agency of the Republic of Kazakhstan;
      on the Russian side, the Federal Space Agency. Terms of implementation: 2013-2015.
      17. To develop and prepare for signing a bilateral agreement governing the procedure for joint use of the Baikonur Cosmodrome.
      Performers:
      from the Kazakhstan side - the National Space Agency of the Republic of Kazakhstan;
      on the Russian side, the Federal Space Agency. Terms of implementation: 2013.
      The joint action plan of Kazakhstan and Russia for 2013-2015 was approved by the President of the Republic of Kazakhstan N.A. Nazarbayev and President of the Russian Federation V.V. Putin December 19, 2012, Moscow

      My webpage
      1. Ascetic
        Ascetic 15 February 2013 19: 58
        +2
        Vice Prime Minister of Kazakhstan Kairat Kelimbetov instructed Talgat Musabaev, Chairman of the National Space Agency of Kazakhstan by May 1, complete the issue of transferring the Baiterek space rocket complex to the Zenit carrier rocket, reports IA News-Kazakhstan.

        "AT by May 1, 2013 to complete the development with the Russian side of the mechanism for transferring the Baiterek missile launcher from the Angara missile carrier to the Zenith,
        - said Kelimbetov.

        What is the dispute about? "Angara" will fly from "Vostochny" and "Zenith" will fly from Baikonur

        December 22, 2004 in Moscow, when, by agreement of the President of the Republic of Kazakhstan N.A. Nazarbayev and the President of the Russian Federation V.V. Putin, the governments of the two countries signed Agreement on the creation of the Baiterek space rocket complex at the Baikonur cosmodrome.
        the parties formed the Joint-Stock Company Kazakh-Russian Baiterek Joint-Stock Company. The founders of the joint-stock company from the Republic of Kazakhstan were the Aerospace Committee of the Ministry of Education and Science of the Republic of Kazakhstan, and from the Russian Federation, the Federal State Unitary Enterprise “State Space Research and Production Center named after M.V. Khrunicheva. "
        Baiterek was created under Khrunichev's Angara-5 and a launch pad for 2 billion. dollars (the amount has changed more than once, but the last one got out like this)
        The launch complex is being created on the basis of the universal stand-start complex “Energia” launch vehicle of the Baikonur Cosmodrome, and will occupy an area of ​​more than 320 hectares.
        In general, to create the launch complex 61 will be reconstructed and 48 buildings and structures will be built, which will be equipped with modern equipment. In total, it is planned to reconstruct 11 and develop 47 systems and units to equip the launch complex.
        The launch complex is created from the condition of ensuring the average annual productivity for the preparation and launch of the Angara A-5 launch vehicle at least 6 launches per year. Now everyone will reorient to the familiar Zenith that will be much cheaper and easier
        Rebuilt only technical complex under the Angara and RB Breeze-M
        In general, to create a technical complex, 119 buildings and structures are planned and will be built that will be equipped with modern high-tech equipment. In total, it is planned to develop more than 40 systems and assemblies for equipping the technical complex. The main construction of the technical complex is the Installation and Testing Building, with a total area of ​​more than 36 thousand m2 and a height of up to 30 m. The Installation and Testing Building consists of the main building, which houses reception and assembly halls and testing the components of a carrier rocket and a space head unit, as well as 2 buildings for the preparation and refueling of spacecraft and a body for the preparation and refueling of booster units.
        Currently, the issue of equal financial participation of the Kazakh and Russian parties in the project for the creation of the Baiterek KRK is being worked out. As contribution of the Russian side being considered financing by the Russian side of the development of design documentation и creating the constituent parts (elements) of the complexwhich, in accordance with the legislation of the Russian Federation cannot be transferred for operation to the Kazakhstan side. Everything else was planned for the money of Kazakhstan. Now for Zenit they will make up a new one
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 15 February 2013 20: 24
          +4
          Regarding "Angara" - here is an extreme first-hand interview with the recently appointed general director of ZiKh. in Izvestia

          Alexander Seliverstov, General Director of GKNPTs im. M.V. Khrunicheva - on cooperation with the Koreans, work on the Angara and the human factor
          here

          The meeting between Vladimir Putin and Nursultan Nazarbayev took place at the end of last week. According to its results, only general words were said that Russia and Kazakhstan agreed on the use of Baikonur. Now I understand essence of the compromise reached. Russia accepted the conditions proposed by Kazakhstan: a new agreement on the conditions for Russia's presence in Baikonur, phased withdrawal from a Russian lease of a number of spaceport facilities, the beginning of joint operation of facilities with the simultaneous training of Kazakh specialists. Kazakhstan in response does not impede launches of Proton launch vehicles from Baikonurthanks to which the Russian Federation holds a leading position in the global launch services market.
          Details here

          That is, Russia will slowly leave for Vostochny, getting rid of Baikonur’s rent and transferring to the joint venture a purely commercial spaceport on equal relations with Kazakhstan
  3. avt
    avt 15 February 2013 10: 15
    +2
    In the form in which it is built it can be maintained only by a country equal to the USSR. All the rest is cheating and an artistic whistle. The fate of the cosmodrome is decided, the highest point is the launch of Energy and the flight of Buran. All the rest of the fuss is like a dying barely living elephant being nibbled on all sides by hyenas, trying to grab a bigger piece. There is no prospect of a rebirth.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 10: 38
      -5
      Kazakhs do not "strive to grab a bigger piece", but on the contrary want to invest money and brains (specialists are already being trained in Russia and France). There is no need to distort the situation with Baikonur. It is Russia who does not care about the fate of Baikonur, and the Kazakhs are seriously concerned about its preservation and further development.
      1. avt
        avt 15 February 2013 10: 58
        +10
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Kazakhs do not "strive to grab a bigger piece", but on the contrary want to invest money and brains (specialists are already being trained in Russia and France). There is no need to distort the situation with Baikonur. It is Russia who does not care about the fate of Baikonur, and the Kazakhs are seriously concerned about its preservation and further development.

        Have you been there? Do you mean they worked? Well, at least we watched the launch live, having lived on the site, well, at least a couple of months with "Kazakh" specialists? Anyone who even was a tourist on the site can be immediately identified, well, with the exception of the former cosmonaut that he became an official, and he also has a course No, just to voice what the Elbasy will say. And the cosmodrome was prescribed the same in 1991 as Buran, on which the roof fell down in the MIC, and you can minus everything here, but still you can sort it out for scrap and sell it to the Chinese. sites, taking into account the launch complex in Kourou, which the Barmina KBOM was building to the Franks - you immediately go to Zadornov! He will check it out, he loves such news! And if only they could see Leninsk partially "broadcast" or even talk about Kazakhstan's space exploration and would not be.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 11: 16
          -2
          Continuous boltology about "live observation of launches" and "Kazakh specialists". What is it for? I'm not interested in the processes of a technical plan, but in the strategic development on this issue.
          By the way, the Russians were responsible for the safety of Buran. So all claims are against them.
          It is absurd to accuse the Kazakhs of striving to destroy everything and hand over scrap metal. This Russian side noted that it plundered absolutely all the leased objects. After Russia, ALWAYS remained objects unsuitable for further use. Study the issue of the military infrastructure that Russia once rented from Kazakhstan, and what the Russians turned them into (Priozersk, Daryal-U, etc.).
          Well, as for the laughter from the French - your right. So far, we aim to obtain both "Soviet" knowledge from Russia and European technologies. Kazakhstan did the same in the field of uranium processing, thanks to which Kazakhstan took the 1st place in the world in the sale of this fuel, and is the only state that is able to power both Soviet nuclear reactors and American-type reactors.
          1. avt
            avt 15 February 2013 11: 29
            +5
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Continuous boltology about "live observation of launches" and "Kazakh specialists". What is it for? I'm not interested in the processes of a technical plan, but in the strategic development on this issue.

            Got it, no questions. The real top manager of iron has not seen, but is keenly interested in processes, it is strong! Especially when discussing real technical processes. Keep up the good work, there is a virtual game about agriculture - it will be about space exploration.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 11: 32
              0
              pfff, crank up as much as you like. if you think that an engineer will calmly replace a manager (or vice versa) - this is your right to think so.
              1. kirill110
                kirill110 16 February 2013 17: 48
                +1
                We have a lot of managers, everyone in the soul knows how to, but it’s bad with the engineers
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 17 February 2013 11: 00
                  0
                  Yes, we do not have enough engineers. Generally speaking, KZ never had enough of them. And now even more so. Therefore, the Bolashak program is primarily designed for those specialties in which we have a deficit - natural sciences, engineering and management of the "advanced" level. In particular, they began and began to educate personnel on the topic of astronautics.
                  Well, it’s nice that the students themselves are burning to deal with this topic.
                  From the news:
                  "Pavlodar schoolgirl won the Air Smith International Olympiad in Houston. 11th grade student Nazif Baktybaeva again won the space projects competition. This time the 16-year-old Pavlodar woman won the International Olympiad, which was held in Houston, Texas, from May 2 to May 7. Participants from 68 countries of the world presented more than a hundred projects to the jury.Pavlodar schoolgirl presented a spaceship for a flight to Venus for the competition.
                  “With my project, I took the fourth prize in the nomination for space engineering and nanotechnology. The competition was very tough, but interesting. The program of the Olympiad included excursions to NASA headquarters. Having been there, I became even more convinced of my desire to connect my future with astronautics , and, perhaps, even become an astronaut, "the girl shared her impressions.
                  Victory at the international Olympics allowed her to become the owner of a scholarship from the University of Texas.
                  As previously reported, the projects of the young inventor were seriously interested in foreign experts.
                  Let us remind you that in April this year, a student of the Pavlodar Kazakh-Turkish Lyceum won first place in the VIII International Scientific Competition in Space Research, held at Baikonur.

                  Who knows, maybe she is the future Korolev?
                  1. kirill110
                    kirill110 17 February 2013 16: 00
                    +1
                    The Bolashak program is more like a joke, a friend goes there, studies on Western technologies there, sees how good it is and thinks ... maybe it can stay here? Everything is according to the law there, according to our concepts. He arrives, and here he is not needed, well, he has nowhere to work and nothing to do. We do not like very smart people, they love executive people. The entire education system is based on the principle of cramming; Nazarbayev University orders work that it can, for example, perform in its departments.
                    Throw, school circles in the nomination of nanotechnology - this is not serious. We had 2 cosmonauts trained, not one flew. One of them, in my opinion, went to Russia. And our schoolgirl can and will work at NASA. Most of our schoolchildren and students (based on local surveys) want a bigger salary and a place in KMG. I will tell you a secret that in Astana, a turner of the 6th category, for example, is difficult to find. So much for the engineers.
          2. Garo
            Garo 16 February 2013 18: 13
            +1
            Hello Marek! I am happy to follow your correspondence, there are many informative and interesting things. Some of your articles can be successfully applied to educate young people. But, as for what happened to Priozersk and Daryal-U, everyone is "good", not only Russia. The crisis of this city passed partly before my eyes. But recent events inspire confidence in the future of this city.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 17 February 2013 11: 13
              0
              Thanks, Garo.
              However, I disagree with your statement that the Russians have nothing to do with the collapse of Priozersk and the Daryal-U facility. It was the Russians who rented them, and it was they who subjected them to total plundering before transferring the facilities to Kazakhstani jurisdiction. Local residents only finished off the "dead" objects, especially since Kazakhstan really does not need them (especially in the form in which the Russians left them). Our military ranges occupied 12% of the territory of the Kazakh SSR, most of this infrastructure is no longer needed either by Kazakhstan or Russia. What remains in working condition is enough above the roof, the operating ranges for the Kazakh army are already larger in size than some large European countries. At the same time, Kazakhstan is building a new military infrastructure in other regions, taking into account the changing reality - on the border with Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.
              I was in Priozersk too. It has no future (like a full-fledged city). As well as there is no need for it. There the Sary-Shagan training ground itself is only needed.
  4. Octavian avgust
    Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 10: 35
    +8
    In principle, Kazakhstan does not need Baikonur. If we even pick it up, we won’t know what to do with it. We have neither specialists, nor equipment and a technical school, and not even money. The dispute is very reminiscent of bidding around the transit pipe of Ukraine, the Gabala radar station of Azerbaijan, the 201st base in Tajikistan, etc. etc. The bottom line is that Russia will find them an adequate replacement if necessary. And the little kings show their narrow-mindedness and lack of strategic thinking.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 10: 46
      -4
      Nonsense in all directions.
      1) Nobody is going to take him away from Russia. On the contrary, Russia is invited to increase work at the cosmodrome.
      2) Specialists have been training for several years in Russia and abroad. For example, France has a two-year internship at workplaces for the design, assembly, testing and operation of satellites of 45 Kazakhstani specialists. The construction of a satellite manufacturing plant is nearing completion in Astana.
      3) Kazakhstan has more than dofuya money. In the National Fund and the National Bank almost 100 billion dollars in stash. Plus more money from pension funds. So we can thoroughly spend money on Baikonur without hitting the state budget.
      4) The discussion of Kazakhstan with Russia regarding Baikonur and does not closely resemble Gabala and so on. Obviously unrealistic prices were set there for Russia to kick Russia out of its territory. And Kazakhstan, on the contrary, proposes to remove rent from Russia and, in exchange, begin to invest jointly in the facility. Do you understand the difference?
      5) Are you not sick of living under the control of a "narrow-minded little king"? Maybe you should consider moving to a more comfortable environment? You will not spoil your nerves.
      1. ultra
        ultra 15 February 2013 23: 00
        +5
        It is necessary to build "VOSTOCHNY"! Space is national security and from Baikonur the Kazakhs let them launch whatever they want!
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 23: 54
          -2
          build what you want. just give the rocket for which you paid in full, and then free the spaceport immediately. advise Roskosmos this, otherwise they are sitting there racking their brains without you.
          1. kirill110
            kirill110 17 February 2013 16: 06
            +1
            What to do with a rocket? There are no technologies, or we’ll build a couple of hundred unique factories (for example, they work with titanium mainly only in Russia, even Boing holds orders at this plant in Russia. You somehow do it all with a bang ... here we wrote about managers above, interestingly, we have is there such a manager who could pull at least one such plant? It is worth noting that SP Korolev was an engineer, and not just a hollow manager, and it is with him that the industry will move forward. Once again I repeat - this will all end by stealing the budget fireworks from a pair of missiles), the state benefits 0, then there will be a couple of high-profile cases ... people are already used to
    2. Frigate
      Frigate 15 February 2013 11: 41
      -3
      Quote: Octavian avgust

      In principle, Kazakhstan does not need Baikonur.

      How not needed? Does Kazakhstan need you?
      Quote: Octavian avgust
      If we even pick it up, we won’t know what to do with it.

      Do you think there are no trained personnel in Kazakhstan?
      Quote: Octavian avgust
      The dispute is very reminiscent of bidding around the transit pipe of Ukraine

      That is, Kazakhstan extorts?
      Quote: Octavian avgust
      And the little kings show their narrow-mindedness and lack of strategic thinking.

      Have you personally read the works of these "Tsarkov" ???
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 11: 44
        -3
        Quote: Frigate
        Have you personally read the works of these "Tsarkov" ???

        The frigate, I'm afraid he only reads the Russian media. And they only have the heading "scandals, intrigues, investigations". And he is apparently even afraid to take the strategic development programs of Kazakhstan in his hands, expecting to see some "Rukhnama" there.
        1. Frigate
          Frigate 15 February 2013 11: 58
          -2
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          The frigate, I'm afraid he only reads the Russian media. And they only have the heading "scandals, intrigues, investigations".

          It's like knowing an African country through the prism of another nation
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 15: 14
            -2
            Yes, he is sure that he lives in an African country among savages. It is necessary to pity him - for such a sacrifice he was doomed for the sake of us unreasonable and miserable.
            1. Frigate
              Frigate 15 February 2013 16: 36
              -2
              Yes, the scary type however
    3. romb
      romb 15 February 2013 15: 48
      +2
      Are you sure about that?
      Can you motivate such a peremptory "statement"?
      Did you have anything to do with Kazcosmos, the aerospace committee, and a dozen RSEs?
    4. biglow
      biglow 15 February 2013 17: 03
      +4
      Octavian avgust,
      if easier to say, nazarbayev has become too old
      1. biglow
        biglow 15 February 2013 17: 51
        +2
        who is from Kazakhstan, does Nazarbayev have a replacement at all? He is still not eternal.
        1. Frigate
          Frigate 15 February 2013 18: 00
          -3
          Quote: biglow
          who is from Kazakhstan, does Nazarbayev have a replacement at all? He is still not eternal

          I won’t tell you for sure, but they will answer you later.
          And I would like to ask a counter question, Is there a replacement for Mr. Putin VV?
          1. biglow
            biglow 15 February 2013 18: 24
            +6
            why are you offended right away? I’m interested because Kazakhstan is far away and news from your regions rarely reaches us
            And what does Putin have to do with it? There will be time and there will be a feast, and age cannot be deceived, as if we would not like to hi
            1. Frigate
              Frigate 15 February 2013 18: 46
              -4
              Quote: biglow
              why are you offended right away? I’m interested because Kazakhstan is far away and news from your regions rarely reaches us
              And what does Putin have to do with it? There will be time and there will be a feast, and age cannot be deceived, as if we would not like to

              I’m not offended, I just wanted to interest you.
        2. marshes
          marshes 15 February 2013 18: 03
          -2
          Quote: biglow
          who is from Kazakhstan, does Nazarbayev have a replacement at all? He is still not eternal.

          What is the age of 73 for a Kazakh? Some who only begin to live at that age. smile
          P.S. My wife freaks out that I look younger. laughing Father is 68 years old and looks at 60. smile
          1. biglow
            biglow 15 February 2013 18: 27
            +2
            marshes,
            power is the heaviest burden of the existing, the turkish bashi also looked good ...
            1. marshes
              marshes 15 February 2013 18: 37
              0

              At the end of the video you will find all the answers.
        3. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 22: 19
          0
          Quote: biglow
          who is from Kazakhstan, does Nazarbayev have a replacement at all? He is still not eternal.

          Talking about a successor is a dangerous business, first of all for the successor himself)))) If his name is announced ahead of time, he probably will not live up to the elections))))
          And so, IMHO - Imangali Tasmagambetov. A person who has proven himself in the civil service on the positive side, a strong supporter of Nazarbayev’s ideas (at least for now)))), is distinguished by a reasonable attitude to the national issue, who knows how to find a common language with different political elites of Kazakhstan (although he once got involved with his son-in-law Nazarbayev - Rakhat Aliyev), and just - an excellent business executive.
          1. biglow
            biglow 16 February 2013 00: 26
            +1
            Marek rozny,
            this is what I wanted to know, it’s better, of course, if those who live in Kazakhstan have informed about it. Well, nothing, it just feels like they’re even afraid to raise this topic.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 49
              +1
              I am from Kazakhstan))) I do not know why I have someone else’s flag hanging here)))) On the site here it happens for many)
              In general, we just have the topic of a successor, as it were, is not particularly relevant. Nazarbayev suits almost everyone in the country - Russians, Kazakhs, ethnic minorities, investors, Muslims, Christians, the poor, the rich. He knows how to negotiate with everyone in the world and defend our interests. So no one wants to think ahead of time about the post-Nazarbayev era. He, kanesh, tired of many as old furniture, but so far I do not want to change it. Even though he has thoroughly "bronzed" in recent years, he still has enough energy to push the country forward.
  5. Octavian avgust
    Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 10: 56
    +4
    Marek Rozny Do you know how much foreign debt Kazakhstan is? It is more than GDP. We have a complete collapse of agriculture. Yes, a lot of money, but they do not spend it anywhere, but they buy volatility and government bonds of other states. Thus sponsoring Western democracies.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 11: 07
      0
      Again past the cash register.
      1) You do not understand the difference between public debt and the debt of private companies? 90% of external debt is the debt of private firms and second-tier banks. And there is no panic, all these debts are paid on schedule. The situation is strictly monitored by the state.
      2) What is the collapse of agriculture? The main agricultural product of Kazakhstan is grain. What is bothering you here? And before that, we didn’t grow much vegetables and fruits, but now we have completely abandoned the idea of ​​competing with Uzbeks and Tajiks. There is no point in this. For meat, there would seem to be cause for alarm. But here it was simply decided that all Soviet cows should be put under a knife - they absolutely can not stand any competition with Western breeding. Therefore, the state is now pursuing a policy of completely replacing cattle stock. But horses and rams - let’s leave our breeds. They are better. By the way, horse meat production in Kazakhstan over the past 5 years has doubled.
      3) Well, what for do you write that supposedly there is no money, and then complain that they "do not work"? For this, they are going to invest in Baikonur, so that they do not lie dead. In addition, you have a mess in your head with securities. It was China that invested in government bonds of Western countries, and Kazakhstan bought most of the securities from the private sector (company shares).
      1. Octavian avgust
        Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 13: 56
        +4
        Yes, but the state pays for private banks and desks. Don't you Mr. know the essence of the loan interest and what it leads to. It is even written in the bible. Deuteronomy of Moses.
        You are wrong about the agricultural account. We have solid meat imports: from bush legs, pork from Poland, beef from Argentina and Brazil. In our region, out of 32 collective farms, the farm remained only at 1. Many were even extinct or will soon become extinct.
        1. marshes
          marshes 15 February 2013 14: 07
          +2
          Quote: Octavian avgust
          It is even written in the bible. Deuteronomy of Moses.

          ????? smile
          Quote: Octavian avgust
          . We have solid meat imports: from bush legs, pork from Poland, beef from Argentina and Brazil.

          You probably also have solid imports, with us everything almost local would even say its own. smile
          1. marshes
            marshes 15 February 2013 14: 19
            +3
            And here is our cattle, on Fasenda. The river on the left is one of the channels of the Ili. smile
        2. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 14: 56
          +2
          Personally, I eat aul meat (horse meat and lamb). I personally bring it. And you can buy Kazakhstan meat at the bazaar. Well, or foreign if desired. And what kind of region do you have?
          1. Frigate
            Frigate 15 February 2013 16: 40
            -1
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Personally, I eat aul meat (horse meat and lamb). I personally bring it. And you can buy Kazakhstan meat at the bazaar. Well, or foreign if desired. And what kind of region do you have?

            I also eat meat from auls
            1. Octavian avgust
              Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 20: 59
              +2
              Mr. Rawanie you recently propagated)))
              1. Frigate
                Frigate 15 February 2013 21: 07
                -1
                Quote: Octavian avgust
                Mr. Rawanie you recently propagated)))

                Sorry, if you are a patriot, then do not say it's not my fault, he came "Mister" laughing
                1. Octavian avgust
                  Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 23: 14
                  -1
                  And why are you doing this?
          2. Octavian avgust
            Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 20: 57
            0
            Akmola region, Yesil district
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 21: 06
              +1
              According to a KazAgroTV correspondent with a link to the district administration website, according to monitoring by KazAgroMarketing JSC, the Esilsky district is among the regions with the largest number of farms in which the supply of breeding stock to breeding bulls is 100%.

              This year, under the Sybag program, 27 pedigree meat-producing bulls were purchased, 18 of which were transferred for private crossbreeding to private herds.

              The cost of one manufacturer, depending on weight, from 300 thousand tenge and above. Residents themselves are often not able to buy such a bull, so many farms purchased them at their own expense.

              For example, Zarechny LLP purchased five bulls of Hereford breed, thereby fully providing livestock to the private sector of Zarechensky s / o producers.

              According to the Sybaga program, the Mas farm purchased five Herefords, which were leased to the herd of the Yubileiny agricultural farm.

              In the farm “Prestige”, artificial insemination of the breeding stock of cattle is being carried out, however, they bought three producers of Hereford for the private edge of the village of Aksay.

              By the way, this breed is very popular, Agrofirm Karakol LLP, Azamat-2030, Zhana Zher, and Stimul farm purchased the same bulls for the private sector.

              And in Novo-Prirechnoye LLP all conditions are created to receive purebred beef cattle in the future. Already purchased 50 heads of breeding heifers and five heads of bulls of Auliekol breed.

              Importantly, a subsidy in the amount of 107 thousand tenge is issued for the purchase of pedigree cattle. For bulls-producers transferred to a private herd, a maintenance subsidy of 47 thousand tenge is paid. When conducting breeding and breeding work, a subsidy of 12 thousand tenge is charged for each head of the breeding stock.

              Nikolay Afanasyev, Akmola region

              More details: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yPO8sv63V0gJ:www.kazagrotv.
              kz/ru/%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%81%D1%82%D
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              nt = firefox-a
              Any use of materials is allowed only with a hyperlink to www.kazagrotv.kz
              1. Octavian avgust
                Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 23: 27
                +2
                Zarechny LLP purchased five bulls of Hereford breed, thereby fully providing livestock for the private sector of the Zarechensky private farm with producers.
                Yes, at the state farm Zarechny maybe a state-owned millionaire. It is self-sufficient without help.
                Agrofirm Karakol LLP, Azamat-2030, Zhana Zher, and Stimul farm purchased the same bulls for the private sector.
                There is complete lies and propaganda. Azamat-2030 This is a desk that belongs to A. Rogozny They have 1 Belarus tractor and 1 combine, more and more equipment is missing + this year it’s not a crop. And he has nothing more and he does not need cattle. He bankrupt the state farm 5 times under various names.
                "Zhana zher" They had plans for raising livestock, but they remained plans. In addition to grain (wheat) they do not need anything else, which is easier to sell. And they themselves buy meat from the villagers for their own production needs.
                I understand programs as programs, but from the word halva, it’s not sweeter in my mouth. These are all declarations and pieces of paper and have nothing to do with realities.
    2. marshes
      marshes 15 February 2013 11: 08
      +2
      Quote: Octavian avgust
      Do you know how much the external debt of Kazakhstan is? It is more than GDP.

      Tell me, please.
      What do I know- "The public debt as of January 1, 2013 amounted to 3 billion tenge (828,3 billion US dollars), or 25,4% of GDP
      1. Octavian avgust
        Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 23: 30
        -1
        I'm talking about external, not state.
        1. marshes
          marshes 15 February 2013 23: 44
          +3
          Quote: Octavian avgust
          I'm talking about external, not state.

          20 February, 2012
          Kazakhstan's external public debt and state guaranteed debt is about $ 5 billion.
          This was stated by the chairman of the National Bank of the Republic of Kazakhstan Grigory Marchenko in an interview with the "Servants of the People" program on the KTK TV channel.

          At the same time, according to the country's chief banker, the funds of the National Fund, which are fully placed abroad, amount to 45,5 billion dollars.

          “That is, in fact, the rest of the world owes our state more than $ 40 billion. So we don’t owe anyone,” G. Marchenko explained.

          As for private debt, the head of the National Bank noted that almost half of it is the so-called intercompany debt. That is, large Western companies, bringing foreign direct investment to Kazakhstan, in order to pay less taxes, arrange them as loans to their subsidiaries operating in our republic. This is a total of about 60 billion dollars.

          "Neither the state, nor the population of Kazakhstan will ever be responsible for these debts. Therefore, the state of the external debt does not cause any concern," G. Marchenko assured.
    3. avt
      avt 15 February 2013 11: 17
      +6
      Quote: Octavian avgust
      Marek Rozny Do you know how much foreign debt Kazakhstan is? It is more than GDP. We have a complete collapse of agriculture. Yes, a lot of money, but they do not spend it anywhere, but they buy volatility and government bonds of other states. Thus sponsoring Western democracies.

      Useless ! You will prove to them NOTHING! Even the obvious things. Well, there is no space program for Russia and even more so for Kazakhstan near Baikonur. Just not all. There is no such money at least to maintain landfills {I mean on Balkhash, everything was created in a single complex}. The stupid death of Buran and the idle amusement ride in the Gorky pilot test park are vivid evidence of this. Well them! Let the cheeks blow and whistle further.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 11: 20
        -1
        Quote: avt
        Well, there is no space program for Russia and even more so for Kazakhstan near Baikonur.

        That is why Kazakhstan understands that Russia is going to kill Baikonur. That is why Kazakhstan decided to take Russia by the breast and tackle this issue. Russia really doesn’t give a damn about this cosmodrome, but for us it doesn’t care.

        Russians were responsible for the safety of Buran.

        By the way, about the landfills on Balkhash - it was Russia that ditched them before being handed over to Kazakhstan. Nevertheless, the Kazakhstan army of landfills is enough above the roof. We also give Russians and other neighbors in the CIS. Why are you moaning? Or do you think that it makes sense for the Kazakhs to maintain all Soviet military training grounds on their territory? This is kagbe 12% of the entire territory of giant Kazakhstan. Do we need so much?
        1. Octavian avgust
          Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 14: 07
          +1
          Marek rozny,
          In 2012, Russia made 23 launches. 1st place in the world! hi
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 15: 17
            +1
            Octavian, you make innocence so easily that I am amazed. A couple of years Russia will use Baikonur until its own spaceport is completed. And after that, Russia will not do anything else there. She is now squeezing all the juices.
            1. Octavian avgust
              Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 21: 04
              +2
              Juices from what ?? There is complete discipline and order, or even missiles will fall if they forget to do something.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 22: 32
                +1
                I explain in a popular way - Russia does not want to invest in the development of the cosmodrome. All current spending is only on maintaining the infrastructure at the required minimum. Nothing new has been built there over the years and are not going to be built. Only what was built in Soviet times is used. At the same time, not all of the Baikonur Cosmodrome is used - part of the facilities (including launch sites) are banal.
                Russia's logic in relation to Baikonur was as simple as five cents - to invest nothing in Baikonur, and after creating your own space center - to transfer the main launches to it. At the same time, Baikonur would remain a closed zone for Kazakhstan and other states until the expiration of the lease term in 2050. In other words, a dog in the manger.
                It was the awareness of Russia's policy regarding the Baikonur cosmodrome that made the government of Kazakhstan put pressure on Russia in order to tackle the issue of the development of the cosmodrome. What for us rusty iron, which we would have received only in 2050? And before that, the cosmodrome (and the city) would have turned into dead lands.
                1. ultra
                  ultra 15 February 2013 23: 07
                  +2
                  What is the point of investing in something that does not belong to you! Nothing personal but business!
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 00
                    +2
                    Well, then what is the argument about? I also say that Russia was going to "kill" Baikonur. And therefore Kazakhstan is going to start developing the cosmodrome. With Russia (which is desirable) or without it.
                2. Octavian avgust
                  Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 23: 33
                  +1
                  Iron by iron, and most importantly people as well as the whole thing. So in the 90s, the spaceport under our control would die long ago for lack of funds.
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 01
                    +1
                    now is not the 90s already, thank god. money saved up over the years.
    4. Frigate
      Frigate 15 February 2013 12: 01
      +2
      Quote: Octavian avgust
      volute

      Currency through A (Great, powerful, truthful and free Russian language)
      1. Octavian avgust
        Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 14: 04
        +2
        How attentive you are, before sending comments I will send you for verification! bully
        1. Frigate
          Frigate 15 February 2013 16: 42
          +1
          Quote: Octavian avgust
          How attentive you are, before sending comments I will send you for verification!

          I can help you filter your head too, contact
    5. romb
      romb 15 February 2013 15: 54
      +4
      Well what can I tell you ..... wassat
      It is not necessary to confuse the "corporate" debt of the residents of the Republic of Kazakhstan within the framework of foreign economic activity with the debt obligations of the state as a subject of LBT.
  6. Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 10: 56
    +2
    The presidents of Russia and Kazakhstan decided to consider the transition to new relations at the Baikonur Cosmodrome. As the deputy head of Roscosmos Sergey Savelyev said, we are talking about the phased withdrawal of Baikonur from Russia's lease and the future complex sharing.

    “I want to emphasize that we are not talking about any withdrawal of Russia from Baikonur, new ways of cooperation are being developed”- Saveliev noted. It is a phased withdrawal from a Russian lease of a number of spaceport facilities, the joint operation of facilities with the simultaneous training of Kazakh specialists. In response, Kazakhstan does not prevent the launch of Proton launch vehicles from Baikonur, thanks to which Russia maintains a leading position in the global launch services market, Izvestia writes.

    “The issue of the number of Proton launches in 2013 is almost agreed, we are waiting for the official paper from the Kazakh side,” Saveliev said. - We asked to review the parameters specified in the decree of the Government of Kazakhstan dated December 28 last year. In that document, the number of launches by Protons is limited to 12, which is below our needs. Kazakhstan partners went to meet us. ”

    As the first Baikonur facility, which can be withdrawn from Russian lease in accordance with the new concept of relations, the launch complex for Zenit launch vehicles is considered. Representatives of Kazakhstan previously showed interest in this launch, exploring the possibility of replacing the Angara rocket with Zenit in the framework of the Baiterek project (its essence is that Kazakhstan creates its starting position and thus becomes a space power, buying carriers from Russia as necessary).

    According to Savelyev, in March this year, the intergovernmental commission on Baikonur will gather in order to develop a strategy for further cooperation. The end point of this program will be the signing by Russia and Kazakhstan of a new intergovernmental agreement on the use of Baikonur, which will replace the current lease agreement for the complex until 2050.

    ZY The launch complex for Zenit, which is mentioned in the news, is currently subleased by Roscosmos to the Russian oligarch Makhmudov (UMMC).
  7. marshes
    marshes 15 February 2013 11: 32
    +1
    International launch services

    In 1993, GKNPC, RSC Energia and the American corporation Lockheed created a joint venture Lockheed-Khrunichev-Energia (LCE). The main objective of the joint venture was the marketing of launch services of the Proton launch vehicle. Within the framework of this enterprise, the GKNPC provided the production of a launch vehicle, adaptation of the payload to it, development and manufacture of a fairing, and provision of launch services. On June 7, 1995, the LHE Joint Venture was reorganized into the ILS JV - International Launch Services. ILS began marketing the Proton launch vehicle.

    International Launch Services (ILS) has the exclusive right to the marketing and commercial operation of the Russian heavy-class launch vehicle Proton and the promising Angara rocket and space complex. ILS was incorporated in 1995 in the United States and is headquartered in Reston, Virginia. The controlling stake in ILS belongs to the Russian State Space Research and Production Center named after MV Khrunichev (Moscow), the developer and manufacturer of the Proton and Angara launch vehicles.

    The Proton launcher is used to launch payloads as part of the Russian federal comic program and ILS commercial programs. All launches of the Proton launch vehicle are carried out from the Baikonur Cosmodrome. The Proton launch vehicle is distinguished by constructive excellence, high energy and operational characteristics. The indicated advantages, as well as the unique high accuracy of launching spacecraft into predetermined orbits, which are provided by the Proton launch vehicle, make it possible to best meet customer requirements, reducing their possible risks and guaranteeing the implementation of business plans.

    ILS fully provides the entire launch service cycle. The company has approximately 60 employees, whose combined experience spans many decades of work in the international space launch market.
  8. marshes
    marshes 15 February 2013 11: 54
    +1
    The starting position for Zenit at Baikonur exists and
    is leased from the Russian company International Space
    services "(MKU), controlled by the Ural Mining and Metallurgical Company
    (UMMC) Iskander Makhmudov.
    Iskandar (Iskander) Kakhramonovich Makhmudov (December 5, 1963, Bukhara, Uzbek SSR, USSR) is a Russian businessman of Uzbek [1] origin [2] [3] [4], founder and president of the Ural Mining and Metallurgical Company (UMMC).
    According to Forbes, in 2011 it has a fortune of $ 9,9 billion, which allows it to occupy the 12th line in the list of the richest businessmen in Russia and the 88th line in the world rating [5].
    In 1984-86 - He worked as a translator of a group of Soviet military advisers and specialists working in the Libyan General Engineering Directorate (the Libyan analogue of the Soviet Rosvooruzhenie) engaged in arms transfers. He worked through the Ministry of Foreign Economic Relations of the USSR [7].
    In 1986-88 - Translator of a group of Soviet military advisers in Iraq (in the Office for the Construction of Military Facilities of the Iraqi General Staff). In 1988-90 - Worked in middle management positions at the State Joint Stock Company “Uzbekintorg” in Tashkent - then, until the creation of the sovereign Ministry of Foreign Economic Relations - a monopoly company operating on the foreign market mainly with the most important Uzbek goods - cotton.
    1. ultra
      ultra 15 February 2013 23: 09
      +3
      All these "entrepreneurs" should be hung by the balls!
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 03
        +1
        I agree. but for now, we’re just going to return this launching pad to Kazakhstan’s property and give work to our own and Russian specialists so that Baikonur will live after the launches are transferred to the Russian spaceport.
  9. Nomad
    Nomad 15 February 2013 13: 14
    0
    Quote: marshes
    Thanks, Nomad.

    So you got ahead of me here too! smile
  10. Nomad
    Nomad 15 February 2013 13: 23
    +1
    Quote: Octavian avgust
    In principle, Kazakhstan does not need Baikonur. If we even pick it up, we won’t know what to do with it.

    On their own people are not judged.
  11. kirill110
    kirill110 15 February 2013 13: 40
    +3
    Marek rozny,
    what good optimism do you have :-), one thing is not clear, why does Kazakhstan have its own space program? There is no water in the villages, medicine, education is lame, no roads, the problem of the Aral Sea and soon Balkhash (China is trying), and we would be surprised by the whole world. Yes, there is a national fund (this is money of future generations), there are pension funds (only, I would never give my money out of them to such a scam). Name at least 5 projects (high-tech) that we would have successfully completed or are working on. For starters, we can do agricultural machinery (well, at least produce spare parts for it), some pans, otherwise we import everything and pathos above the roof.
    1. Octavian avgust
      Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 14: 02
      +1
      No, sir, you do not understand the main thing to send your obligations into space)) good
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 14: 54
        -2
        Quote: Octavian avgust
        No, sir, you don’t understand the main thing to send your obligations into space)) good

        In my opinion, it is really time for you to move to another habitat. There is nothing to spoil your nerves among the "monkeys".
        1. Octavian avgust
          Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 21: 06
          0
          do not wait! angry
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 22: 36
            +1
            Then stop calling Kazakhs "monkeys". You still have to stomp and stomp up to the level of Musabayev and Aubakirov. Either you are a citizen and a patriot of your country, or go where you want to be a patriot and a citizen. Why sit on two chairs?
            We have problems, even a bunch of problems. We must talk about this, argue, think, solve them. And on your part, I see only poorly disguised nationalism.
            1. Frigate
              Frigate 15 February 2013 22: 39
              -1
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              And on your part, I see only poorly disguised nationalism.

              In-in. Read his review for 21:26. There, this respected one bothered to insult me ​​and you.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 06
                +1
                cord. not usteymimin?
            2. Octavian avgust
              Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 23: 43
              0
              And where did I call? I would have been removed for insults + I am also a Kazakh. At the expense of Aubakirov, you know little about him. Old merits are not worth it. If anything, write drugs.
              And where did you see nationalism in me? You probably do not see well.
              1. Apollo
                Apollo 15 February 2013 23: 54
                +3
                So, repeatedly in PM, each of you made a comment.
                Frigate and Octavian avgust, if you do not calm down, I will give everyone a warning. You do not leave me a choice.
              2. marshes
                marshes 16 February 2013 00: 01
                +4
                Quote: Octavian avgust
                I would have been removed for insults + I am also a Kazakh.

                A strange Kazakh, I would say. smile
                Quote: Octavian avgust
                Don't you Mr. know the essence of the loan interest and what it leads to. It is even written in the bible. Deuteronomy of Moses.

                Deportation (Hebrew דְּבָרִים, Dvarim - “Words”; Latin Deuteronomium; other Greek Δευτερονόμιον; also “The fifth book of Moses”) - the fifth book of the Pentateuch (Torah), Old Testament and the whole Bible. In Jewish sources, this book is also called the "Mishneh of the Torah" (lit. "repeated law"), since it is a repetition of all previous books. [1] The book is a long farewell speech addressed by Moses to the Israelites on the eve of their passage through the Jordan and the conquest of Canaan. Unlike all other books of the Pentateuch, Deuteronomy, with the exception of a few fragments and individual verses, is written in the first person.
                1. Octavian avgust
                  Octavian avgust 16 February 2013 00: 09
                  0
                  Why? Yes, my opinion is different from yours and in this I am strange. There are many things written in the sacred books. Many consider themselves Christians, although they have never seen bibles or other books. The same applies to Muslims.
                  1. marshes
                    marshes 16 February 2013 00: 19
                    +1
                    Quote: Octavian avgust
                    Yes, my opinion is different from yours and in this I am strange.

                    Because no matter what happens, a real Kazakh will say that everything is fine with us, the mentality is like that. Even if he doesn’t share much financial difficulties or food.
                    1. Octavian avgust
                      Octavian avgust 16 February 2013 00: 26
                      0
                      Yes, I agree. But this is with the outside world. And then all of their own and you need to solve pressing problems. And do not seek happiness in outer space.
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 13: 57
                        +2
                        some kind of you "non-nomad" at all))))
              3. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 05
                +4
                it would never occur to a Kazakh to call his cosmonauts "monkeys". it is a trademark. you are no different from them.
                1. Octavian avgust
                  Octavian avgust 16 February 2013 00: 07
                  -1
                  I’m not going to convince you, the truth is one. And monkeys is a topic about monkeys which Iran recently sent into space
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 01: 16
                    0
                    Jaeger sen iran haiwanathanasynda maymylda korsen, cossack garishkeri turali jazba, seby bailanys jok.
                  2. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 13: 55
                    +5
                    Question to administrators: why was my post in Kazakh removed? Just in case? It’s just that Octavian Augustus is like a Kazakh, so I wrote in Kazakh to him that if he saw monkeys in the Iranian zoo, then let him not remember the Kazakh cosmonauts, as there is no connection between them.
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 14: 52
      +2
      1) If you do not need a space program, then this is the problem of your worldview. You would have been indignant in the USSR in the 50s and 60s, they say, what for would you build some kind of Baikonur in the steppe, launch satellites and humans, when half the country is still in ruins.
      2) Everything else - you just have verbiage, showing absolute ignorance of the realities.
      a) regarding the auls - there is a separate program "Taza su" for it. Not without shoals and scandals, but it goes. Funding is good;
      b) about the horrors of medicine and education, you can try in any country in the world without stopping. The topic is fertile even in Germany and the USA. We have problems, but not at all catastrophic. And the service of the population for ordinary diseases and ordinary education are quite normal. And about the fact that in the West they do super-duper operations and that there are elite universities, they are usually inaccessible to the people there. About shoals in Western medicine and education, I can also talk for hours, moreover, in detail in Germany, the USA and South Korea (let's call Seoul "West").
      Moreover, if you study the issue of education, you will see a lot of evidence that in the world our schoolchildren are ahead of most Western European students at various Olympiads. Moreover, most of the laureates are graduates of Kazakh schools (it is no secret that the topic of "backwardness of Kazakh schools" is popular among Russian Kazakhs).
      c) Kazakhstan is actively engaged in the restoration of its Aral water area. After the construction of the bulkhead dam, the level of the Small Aral Sea began to rise steadily, salinity decreased, and the fishermen of the Aral Sea region again began to fish on an industrial scale. The project has not yet been completed, but the Kazakh part of the Aral Sea no longer causes concern.
      d) Roads, cars, railways are being built all over the country. Only one who is absolutely uninterested in the events in Kazakhstan does not know this. However, it is not surprising. Unfortunately, we still have enough people who prefer to directly and indirectly blame "these Kazakhs" for their inability to run the state and who feed on information only from Russian resources. Thank God, no one is openly trying to do it as openly as in the 90s, but there are still enough people of this nature. You can, Kirill, write frankly: they say, what for you - sheep herds - space? Che to be ashamed of something?
      e) Balkhash is a problem. But the government is solving this problem. Nobody up there forgets about him, you personally don’t know anything and don’t want to know, preferring to scuffle from scratch. Kazakh government agencies are dealing with this issue.
      3) Thank God that you are not a top manager of pension funds and not a civil servant. Otherwise, you would not have given anything at all to the development of Kazakhstan with such convictions.
      4) There are enough factories in Kazakhstan. Open your eyes and find not 5 and 50 projects, but much more. It is time to wake up and not live in the 90s.
      About "we import everything" - the highest grade idiocy. All countries import something. Even the USSR, the USA and China could not and cannot produce absolutely everything. And 16 million for Kazakhstan all the more there is no point in trying to produce "everything." There are several directions of import substitution and several directions of export-oriented products. Each country usually tries to occupy some of its niches in which it is competitive - watches, uranium, telephones, flour, rice, tobacco, chocolate, etc.
      5) Regarding the production of agricultural machinery, it is sometimes better to delve into the topic before trying something.
      Agromashholding - http://www.vseproizvodstvo.kz/news_agromash_09082012.php Read. And there is SemAZ, which produces a tractor.
      So go for a walk, Vasya.
      1. kirill110
        kirill110 15 February 2013 16: 36
        +5
        So go for a walk, Vasya. - I didn’t drink vodka with you, and you didn’t go over to it.
        Let’s point by point, we have moved away from space, but still:
        1. The USSR in the 50s and 60s is one of the 3 victorious powers that has a completely different potential. I think the comparison is incorrect. Korolev was not born yet.
        2. About Taza Su - watch any TV channel (except Khabar), it is possible on the Internet, you can’t see anything of water. I myself am on collective farms and villages. No ice with water.
        3. Here we are being treated and studying here, and not trynim, in our own skin we feel that life has become better, life has become more fun, I will not even talk about social security. We need to launch rockets.
        4. Where are the roads built? Western China - Europe? Or paid in Borovoye for the servants of the people or remember how pension funds buried money
        investors in the construction of railways, and again compensate from the budget?
        5. And finally, I asked for 5 brands (technological), but at least water filters, you wrote to me about the screwdriver assembly of combines of a Belarusian enterprise with Yaroslavl diesels.
        And you go to our store and buy local, and there you can talk. Look at the trade balance in the TS, we even import gas ... in what !!!

        In summary:
        I am not a nationalist and I have many Kazakh friends. I really love Kazakhstan. It seems to me that there is a redistribution of money pie, from which ordinary people are not hot and cold. It is necessary to start small, rush slowly, and not to waste billions of money (received for bowels) for incomprehensible projects. Here, at least maternal capital was introduced for the example of Russia. My opinion is that Russia will work on Baikonur and go to Vostochny and Plesetsk. For Kazakhstan, Baikonur will be like a suitcase without a handle ... and it’s hard to carry and throw it away. Probably, and with a high probability, the activity there will collapse ... and it remains for us to get out of the situation so as to remain good friends with Russia.
        1. marshes
          marshes 15 February 2013 16: 58
          +3
          Quote: kirill110
          2. About Taza Su - watch any TV channel (except Khabar), it is possible on the Internet, you can’t see anything of water. I myself am on collective farms and villages. No ice with water.

          My relatives live in the village of Akshiy, Iliysky District. Five years ago they carried out water supply from Kapshegaya, about 70 km. They brought pipes into every house, before that they drank salt water from the columns for all kidney problems. Why did it happen smile The local akim, everyone in the aul is practically relatives except for the oralmans from China, he also banned the privatization of lands around the aul within a radius of 50 km. for general grazing. Everything depends on people.
          1. kirill110
            kirill110 15 February 2013 17: 07
            +4
            And we have 50 km from Astana, we buried the pipes, we mastered the money and that's all .... there was no water, I was in Kiyaly (SKO) - there isn’t there either, imported water ... yes, there are many examples, and the housing and communal services are in ruin, I feel sorry for people to watch. Problems with heat supply and heating, only this year Semey (Semipalatinsk) celebrated the winter a little quieter, that’s what I’m talking about. It can socially help people, small businesses, young people, and not build castles in the air and throw money away, proving that we are the most, South Korea just recently launched a rocket (with Russian participation) and nothing, nobody died there and money I didn’t spend in billions and their development is not like ours.
            1. marshes
              marshes 15 February 2013 17: 37
              +3
              Cyril, then please explain to me why, in the south-east of Kazakhstan, they don’t really count on the help of the state, they work, they raise livestock and vegetables, they somehow survive and still manage to pay taxes.
              1. kirill110
                kirill110 15 February 2013 17: 55
                +3
                Marshes, everyone is working. A low bow to the peasants. Our relatives also work in the field - farmers. It is bad that peasants are not properly subsidized. We have a risky farming zone. The whole developed world subsidizes the agricultural producer and promotes its products to foreign markets. Our peasant plows like a horse, and then the famous minister (with us) from the television screen instructs him how to live. That is why Lukashenko does not want to build rockets and fly into space? But is the industrial engineering base better? And why do we sell milk from Belarus?
                1. marshes
                  marshes 15 February 2013 18: 18
                  +3
                  Quote: kirill110
                  We have a risky farming zone.

                  True, yes, only you have grass to the waist and by June everything will burn out like we get out. It’s good for those who graze in the mountains but still need to harvest hay for the winter, there is a lot of snow there in winter.
                  Quote: kirill110
                  and then the famous minister (here) from the television screen instructs him how to live.

                  The minister may be right. In the fall he was in Taraz, was surprised at the price of meat, low. I asked why so, the summer was arid, they didn’t have to prepare the hay and sell it, only in the news about the mass death of cattle in the Zhambyl region. I didn’t hear. I heard about infected cows in Northern Kazakhstan that were bought for a lot of money and in the south I didn’t hear that cattle were imported from abroad, they were looking for all the local Alatau, I had 8-month-old calves weighing 100 kg.
                  1. romb
                    romb 15 February 2013 18: 38
                    +2
                    I know very few Kazakhs in Almaty who would buy meat in markets. Personally, I myself buy meat (sogim) in Bakanas. Not only is it tastier, it is also pure - without any achievement of modern bioengineering.

                    And to those who ache that we have meat from Argentina and Brazil, I want to say: you need to know the places.
                    1. marshes
                      marshes 15 February 2013 18: 53
                      +4
                      Quote: romb
                      Personally, I myself buy meat (sogim) in Bakanas.

                      My relatives cannot take meat further than Bakanas, everyone is buying up. smile Those who live in Narynkol before Shilik meat can carry to. smile
                  2. QWERTY
                    QWERTY 16 February 2013 00: 18
                    +1
                    The price of meat in Dzhambul depends on many factors, first of all, on the import of Chinese meat. How it is allowed to import is falling, and strongly. Hay is transported from the foothills. It is more expensive, of course, but cutting because of this is stupid. In general, Kazakhstan, of course, is a great space power))) In TARGu (Taraz State University) they teach even for the specialty "Nuclear Energy" .... It is not clear how, but they teach. University based on the former pedagogical institute and hydroinstitute.
                    1. Octavian avgust
                      Octavian avgust 16 February 2013 00: 22
                      -1
                      And there they also take bribes (Ram))) We have them in KazNTU. Satpayev is also no less than the departments, but the prices are higher.
                    2. marshes
                      marshes 16 February 2013 00: 29
                      0
                      Quote: ytsuken
                      primarily from the import of Chinese meat

                      Now they cannot import from Kyrgyzstan, but you are talking about China. smile
                      Quote: ytsuken
                      In TARGu (Taraz State University) they even teach in the specialty "Nuclear Power Engineering" .... It is not clear how, but they teach. The university is based on the basis of the former pedagogical institute and hydroinstitute.

                      http://ya-student.kz/higher_education/176/
                      There is a table of specialties.
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 53
                        +3
                        thanks for the link)))) good answer)
                2. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 21: 43
                  +2
                  Quote: kirill110
                  It is bad that peasants are not properly subsidized.

                  The state constantly provides various support to farmers. In my memory, the long-term debts of farms to the state were written off, subsidies were provided for fuel, for the purchase of equipment, feed, pedigree cattle, etc., also help in the case of crop failures. Now the state investment system has been launched with the help of Samruk-Kazyna organizations. Of course, the emphasis is primarily on supporting large farms (they affect the region’s economy more), rather than individual small farms. But gradually a total system of state support will be developed. This is all clear unconditionally.
                  Quote: kirill110
                  That is why Lukashenko does not want to build rockets and fly into space? But is the industrial engineering base better? And why do we sell milk from Belarus?

                  Lukashenko has no spaceport. And so he would also be flaming with ambition) From scratch, he could not build a cosmodrome (especially since the country is not rich). Therefore, Belarus is not particularly interested in space. They have an emphasis on what is. And this, in principle, is also not bad. Agricultural in Belarus is really very good, but it’s very difficult for small countries to make a lot of money from agricultural. Their products are cheaper for many reasons. One of which is cheap local labor. Still, the Kazakh farmer will not want to live on Belarusian income. Nevertheless, they want to create a special cluster for us in milk in Kostanai oblast. But there are still many problems. For example, my uncle has his own dairy in the Akmola region - the trouble is that the main supplier of milk is small farms, which have only a few cows. The quality of their milk constantly skips - today is good milk, tomorrow from the same cow there is some kind of turbidity that does not meet the standards of industrial production by technology. The way out, in his opinion, is one - to consolidate all the farms in the region, to create a unified system of feeding cows, their veterinary services and other things. And so - each farmer in the Zhaksynsky district has his own milk quality. We must wait until these farms get stronger, when they make milk more or less uniform in composition.
                  In addition, in Belarus, the dairy industry was developed back in Soviet times. And before 1991, not a single canned milk was produced in our country. That is, in fact, this is a new business for us. That's why we are drinking Shadrinsk, Belarusian and Lithuanian milk. Although slowly the volume of its milk (in tetrapacks and plastic bags) is growing.
                  1. kirill110
                    kirill110 15 February 2013 23: 01
                    +4
                    Yes, the cosmodrome is a small problem in comparison with the space program; Russia promises to build the East for several years, for example. Something tells me that Vladimir Vladimirovich will do it. You can scold him, but the man is brutal and will press such ideas.
                    Kazan’s seven hands (it’s possible according to the people’s) is doing something there, its business, the farmer is nightmarishing the Food Corporation. The Agriculture Ministry again started a business - 700 cows were found with Schmallenberg’s disease ... though Austria and Russia didn’t find one, but once under the knife, under the knife ... and let the Hungarians and Austria reimburse the costs (God forbid such a circus in life - a court with the Hungarians and Austria, and from us 2 farms) This is our indicator of support. Sorry, but you write with the phrases of the agency Khabar
                    PS Cows are sorry, however
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 11
                      +2
                      let them build what they want. it is their right. I am not opposed to a strong Russian cosmonautics. I just want Kazakhstan to have its own too. we not only need to raise ordinary industry and agricultural production, but also things that will have a big impact on our science (I'm not talking about the economic effect).
                      you can criticize the Ministry of Agriculture and food corporation, but the agricultural farm not only has not bent, but, on the contrary, is growing slowly as a whole. so I don’t see any reason to tear off the hair on my head.
                      about cows - I hope their jamb will be sorted out quickly.
                      1. kirill110
                        kirill110 19 February 2013 09: 27
                        +1
                        and here is our answer ... they "shook" the cows, our local management spent a lot of dough, which was required to be proved. http://www.zakon.kz/kazakhstan/4542147-v-sko-nachali-szhigat-jelitnykh.html So it will be with the cosmodrome
            2. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 21: 52
              +2
              What kind of village do you have?
              There was a problem through the pipes - the state actually built a bunch of water pipes to us. However, a problem arose further - the local akimats did not want to balance; operating costs are high, and the local population is usually so meager in terms of population that the difference between water revenues and expenditures is gigantic. Therefore, it happened in some (but by no means in all) areas of garbage, when the state in good faith handed over water supply, and the local administration scored on it, unable to bear the costs of maintenance. Now the budget allocation is changing.
        2. romb
          romb 15 February 2013 17: 17
          +2
          Dear Cyril!
          I largely agree with your comment.
          But the reality is that we cannot afford the luxury of forever sitting on a raw material needle. Our country simply needs to find separate areas that give us a real opportunity to create at least partly a high-tech economy, and which will allow us to gradually move away from the raw material orientation in the future. The country has no other option.
          1. kirill110
            kirill110 15 February 2013 17: 45
            +5
            I agree with you, but why should this direction be so unique and expensive? Space technologies can be afforded by few countries, not even just countries, but regional or world leaders. Kazakhstan has unique opportunities for growing durum wheat, for example, can this be developed? Or maybe engage in the production of meat, wool, thoroughbred horses? Natural products are highly valued in the modern world. We simply will not be able to technologically catch up with the space powers, we will not be able to technologically catch up with the "silicon" valley, do not deceive ourselves. It is necessary to build a building from a foundation, not from a roof. Everything else is populism and shapkozakidatelstvo pure water, and with money received for the subsoil (given by God and given to future generations, and not just for this momentary satisfaction of incomprehensible ambitions and puffing up cheeks)
            1. romb
              romb 15 February 2013 18: 14
              +1
              I agree with you, but why should this direction be so unique and expensive?
              Here, trust between the heads of state played a very important role. In addition, initially, the idea was Russian.
              Few countries can afford space technology, not even just countries, but regional or world leaders.
              And we didn't need a full cycle. Only launches of LV, which would be carried out on the basis of existing Soviet space technologies. This is where the Russian proposal for joint cooperation within the framework of the Baiterek space -craft complex with the use of the future Angara as a promising launch vehicle appeared.
              It is necessary to build a building from the foundation, and not from the roof.
              Partly true! At the same time, we are not going to create an analogue of "Silicon Valley" or a laboratory for the development of special chips. We will simply assemble (from ready-made components) satellites for various purposes.
              If you remove extra people from this sphere, then this is quite feasible.
              1. kirill110
                kirill110 15 February 2013 19: 04
                +5
                This is all clear, then here:
                In general, the Baiterek project is intended for commercial use of the Angara-5 launch vehicle, instead of the Proton-M launch vehicle (after termination of its operation), since the commercial launch of the Angara from the Plesetsk launch site is very difficult for organizational reasons (Plesetsk is actually a military launch site) and economically disadvantageous ( the output payload mass on the GPO is significantly less than the Proton from Baikonur). For Russian government agencies, the launch of the Angara from Baikonur is not of interest, therefore this project is exclusively a commercial enterprise of the GKNPTs im. Khrunichev and Kazakhstan, without government funding from the Russian Federation.

                As of November 2012, the project for creating the Baiterek joint Russian-Kazakh rocket and space complex (based on the new Angara launch vehicle) was virtually deadlocked. It was not possible to reach a compromise on the issue of financing the project. Russia is likely to build a launch complex for Angara at the new Vostochny spaceport

                from this the conclusion: the Agency asks for a bunch of billions for what is not clear what venture, "Baiterek" seems to be covered, now everyone rushed to the Ukrainian "Zenith". It is worth noting that Ukraine is a very interesting partner, a high-ranking general of the Republic of Kazakhstan + 2 top managers of Ukrspetsexport was recently arrested (they are stealing, all are charged). Will it work out so with Zenith, as happened with the Ukrainian armored personnel carriers? And the authorities in Independence are in a fever ... a very risky partner for such ambitious goals.
                1. marshes
                  marshes 15 February 2013 19: 17
                  +3
                  Quote: kirill110
                  Ukrainian armored personnel carrier?

                  Moreover, the armored personnel carriers, the purchase and production was signed between the companies Ukrspetsezport and Kazakhstan-Engineering, this level is higher than that of the general, and the rollback of 200 thousand from 150 million looks pretty ridiculous.
                  That would be to buy Yuzhmash is another matter or become shareholders. smile
                  1. romb
                    romb 15 February 2013 19: 33
                    +3
                    Hi!
                    Is it possible that ours simply want to bend the Ukrainians into transferring as many technological "goodies" as possible related to the production of this type of equipment?
                    That would be to buy Yuzhmash is another matter or become shareholders.

                    That would be just great! wink
                    1. marshes
                      marshes 15 February 2013 19: 43
                      +4
                      Quote: romb
                      That would be just great!

                      Hello! There is so much there, according to An-72, which was undergoing repairs in Kiev. The gasoline market, the Romanian oil industry belongs to Kazakhstan, and before that, the line for repairing tanks from Lviv was transported to Semey, maybe they wanted to push us something, but the little things.
                      1. romb
                        romb 15 February 2013 20: 07
                        +2
                        Recently I asked the guys related to the SMZ how they look at the possibility of modernizing the GT-T for the needs of the oil and gas company. So they immediately shaved me off, they said that the plant would be overloaded soon for the needs of the Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Kazakhstan. In short, it turned out that piece projects were not interesting to them.
                        In any case, let's hope that they succeed.
                  2. kirill110
                    kirill110 15 February 2013 21: 15
                    +2
                    Or maybe this is only part of the rollback :-)? Then it’s better to buy back Boing or BAE Systems .... there will be more profits.
                2. romb
                  romb 15 February 2013 19: 29
                  +3
                  The creation of the heavy launch vehicle "Angara" is still a Soviet idea. It was Russia (not "Khrunichev") who offered Kazakhstan to co-finance the work to bring it to mind, something like: in the morning - money, in the evening - chairs.
                  Before Zenith, Ukraine offered RK participation in the Dnepr project (late nineties). The blocking of this proposal by the Russian Federation has become a kind of prerequisite for the possible emergence in the future of a bilateral Russian-Kazakh space project.
                  1. marshes
                    marshes 15 February 2013 19: 36
                    +2
                    Quote: romb

                    The creation of the heavy launch vehicle "Angara" is still a Soviet idea. It was Russia (not "Khrunichev") who offered Kazakhstan to co-finance the work to bring it to mind, something like: in the morning - money, in the evening - chairs.

                    An interesting year was 2004, the agreement on the construction of Baiterek and the extension of the term until 2050, it seems at the same time signed. smile
                    1. romb
                      romb 15 February 2013 19: 50
                      +2
                      To be honest, Turzhanov had to be given a life sentence for his activities at the head of Kazcosmos. This mud.k, instead of doing his direct duties, arranged in Kazkosmos constant psychological (esoteric) trainings for employees - turn to face the world, all people are brothers, inner circle and other hu ... shadow ...
                      Got a bunch of thieves, that's the result (((
                      1. marshes
                        marshes 15 February 2013 20: 00
                        +2
                        Quote: romb
                        Got a bunch of thieves, that's the result (((

                        Our damn trouble, well, why I didn’t feel like a big desire to work in government agencies after serving ... smile
                      2. romb
                        romb 15 February 2013 20: 12
                        +3
                        Really offensive. It already becomes like a tradition, the higher a person sits, the less he thinks about his country. We have profiled so many important points, just because some freak from above is beginning to confuse the private with the public.
                      3. kirill110
                        kirill110 15 February 2013 21: 28
                        +1
                        State service - bureaucracy, IDB, tribalism and corruption and terrible reverence. The most interesting thing is that there is no business as such, large certainly, it is closely intertwined with state structures. I remember in the early 2000s, after the transfer of the capital, there was some spiritual upsurge for everyone, and then ... sometimes you read the news or watch some kind of collegium in a ministry on TV - Anecdote in one word. I think the same in Russia. Our mentality is similar :-)
                      4. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 22: 49
                        +3
                        I spent the same time in the civil service and in the private sector (including in international organizations). There is bureaucracy, without it in any way. It’s like blaming the army for military discipline. An IBD also happens, but an IDB employee has a dozen ambitious workaholics who overtake a drone in a career very quickly. There is no tribalism at all. These are Russian scarecrows. For 7 years of work in government agencies, I have never encountered such a phenomenon. Moreover, I must note that, on the contrary, all state bodies consist of a mishmash of natives of different regions of Kazakhstan.
                        Corruption is more developed in public procurement departments and in licensing. 90% of civil servants do not even have the opportunity to see a bribe out of the corner of their eyes)))))
                        Honoring is not at all characteristic of the Kazakh civil service. This is not an Uzbek mentality. Rather, civil servants are engaged in honoring than employees of state bodies in relation to each other. Personally, in 2003 I had a fight with my boss, in 2004 a subordinate had a fight with me)))) Several times I sent a boss in three letters. In the first half of 2000, all were not very nerves - a wild lack of personnel in the new capital, work until 11-12 at night. Now everything is calmer, everything has gone its course. Most civil servants are young people under 30 years old, while almost everyone has ambitions. But some shals (old people) in the civil service are really engaged in misconduct. Especially from those that have stood at the same career stage for decades. But there are few of them.
                        Z.Y. The sleepy faces of our deputies like to show on TV. But it’s just delicious shots for which journalists have been watching this moment for weeks))) Discussions and disputes in parliament are quite emotional and simply lengthy. During breaks, people can really relax and die for five minutes. Keep in mind that people sit for hours in meetings, and this is really tiring. Sit yourself for at least a couple of hours at the discussion, then you yourself will be disconnected for five minutes to recover.
                      5. kirill110
                        kirill110 15 February 2013 23: 34
                        +3
                        And you go to the ministry, when the minister or vice minister go, the guard disperses be healthy. Is this not reverence ... well, I can’t write everything here sad Of course there is no tribalism, we are all young and early, do you really not know who and where and whose relative is - Astana is a small city. There are such young ministers - you’ll download it, I once confused one vice ... with the usual ministerial clerk ... oh what happened, wrote an explanatory note with a comrade. It was 25 years old. Oh, to tell you, but not the topic is the Internet.
                        I am silent about professionalism ... I saw a person in the Ministry of Justice - she even talked with office equipment in the literal sense of the word. What are your ambitions?
                      6. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 21
                        0
                        I am again grew, I spent enough years of my career in ministries and other government agencies.
                        1) ministers and especially vice ministers do not have any protection. security is only in the buildings at the entrance (employees of the Ministry of Internal Affairs who are not subordinate to anyone other than their departmental superiors).
                        2) when a minister or vicik walks around the building, all employees simply say hello (if they see it for the first time in a day), or pass by. left-wing people rarely walk along corridors, and if they do, then usually there is no reaction either from the official or from the civilian side.
                        3) I have already written about tribalism. if this happens anywhere, then these are rare facts. this was usually the case in the early 90s. now the situation is completely different. it is another matter that there are many golden youth, but they usually cluster in national companies. there who do not stick - a son or nephew with a loud surname. but even there, formally, everything is in order, since their agashki do not work there, but "work" in other organizations.
                        4) there are young ministers, but most of them were quite rightly appointed. communicated with almost all the heads of departments - very intelligent people with ambitions. not without errors, but nonetheless.
                        5) I myself sometimes sometimes don’t immediately understand how to use this or that office unit.
                      7. kirill110
                        kirill110 16 February 2013 09: 25
                        +1
                        Sorry, but my point of view will remain the same. And what, the vice minister is not an ordinary person who works for the money of the people and for his benefit? What is the guard? In England, the Prime Minister can walk on foot, somewhere in Belgium on a bicycle to go to work. And there are no special exits. Believe me, I also go to all these hot places for about 10 years.
                        And how do golden youth get there? Probably all the early geeks.
                        Interestingly, you talked with many heads of departments and you are on this forum? I do not imagine this, in order to communicate and enter high offices - you need to have extraordinary "status". It is unlikely that "such" a person will write on this forum. For example, I talked to Zhamishev and ... went to chat with mere mortals in the forum. So, for example, the head of the department is changing .... immediately the old team - out, a new one (there is no "patronage" - this is an accident) to a new place (for example, an official was a financier - a policeman on the new one, and then he will be an oilman).
                        Sorry, but you need to go as a news editor to the SWAN channel, everything is decorous and noble there
                      8. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 12: 44
                        +2
                        1) Grew again - the ministers and especially the vice ministers have no protection. I can only remember Adilbek Zhaksybekov when he first became minister, he had two bodyguards since the time of business, but very quickly he refused protection when he realized that it looked defiant and unusual.
                        2) but this is how I communicate. and most of my acquaintances from among high-ranking officials also sit on thematic forums (moreover, on music and culinary) and in social networks (under nicknames, essno) and try not to be fired especially.
                        3) "team" and tribalism are very different things. the team recruits like-minded people, proven employees, those people on whom the boss can rely knowing their professional qualities. seldom when a new boss does not bring at least a few people with him - this is a fact. but I don't see any particular tragedy in this. and earlier, due to the total shortage of intelligent personnel in the new capital, this was practiced very strongly, now there is no particular need for this, so the "teams" have been significantly reduced.
                        4) regarding "I was a financier, I became an oilman" - the main thing in management is that a top manager should be a sensible manager. The same thing happens in big business - the top can be invited from a pharmaceutical company to the auto industry, from a commercial bank to some Coca-Cola. The task of the minister is to organize the work of his department and (accordingly) his industry. If you recall the aforementioned Zhaksybekov, then he was invited from private business (the Tsesna corporation) to the post of akim of the capital, where he showed himself very well. Then he worked as the Minister of Industry and Trade (where he was also not bad), and now he is the Minister of Defense (and, in my opinion, he is the best minister of this department for all 20 years, although his education is a "film director"))) ).
                      9. kirill110
                        kirill110 16 February 2013 17: 46
                        +1
                        There may not be security, but the Interior Ministry officers are driving in the building of the Ministries. Doors do not open slightly with a bow. Almost in a whisper, among themselves.
                        Team, these teams are coming. One team starts, then they change it, the next ones come and start revenge in a new way, while they delve into for half a year where they are and what is happening here. All relatives and friends are like-minded people, because of this I left the state office ... then they invited such people to the teams. There are few specialists, for example in IT. There are many graduates, people too, but few specialists. If you look at what is going on, for example, there will be a quiet horror. By the way, about 2 years ago, I saw that 55 yards were spent on e-government .... do you think it was worth it? The software there is foreign, hardware too, we are supported by the bourgeoisie. I understand, like some sort of help, but that kind of money (for support, too, every year). Now the state has "bad" money from the sale of natural resources, but they are finite, and litter right and left.
                      10. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 17 February 2013 11: 48
                        0
                        1) Do not forget that it is mode object... Interior Ministry employees behave in accordance with the instructions. There is a pass - go to the person you came to, put a mark on the time of leaving and leave the building. The guards will not allow strangers to hang out in a secure building just like that. Interior Ministry officials do not open doors for the leadership of the ministries, it is the ministers themselves, or their assistants, if they are too "executive". No other employees of the department and security are involved in this.
                        2) I have already spoken about the teams. About "revenge in a new way" - well, Duc, most often for this, a new head of the department is appointed.
                        3) IT specialists in government agencies are usually of a low class, this is due to the fact that IT specialists receive a small salary there, compared to the private sector, and the career growth of an IT specialist there is limited for objective reasons. Well, the mentality of IT specialists is peculiar))) They look at the employees of state bodies as annoying dullards, because they do not know what an IP address, Linux and SCS are, and all the time they "get" the IT specialist seemed elementary (from the point of view of IT specialist) with questions)))) Yes, and it is required from an IT specialist in the civil service - just to maintain the proper operation of the network, software and hardware. They are not involved in any super-serious work (programming, software sculpting, etc.)
                        4) He was engaged in electronic government in the first half of the 2000s. They were specially sent abroad to study "what is it and why do we need it?" In the end, I + the AIS officer wrote a general analysis and convinced the government to take up this issue. This system is very expensive in any country due to its scale, complexity and level of security. Moreover, the "engine" and server hardware are really foreign. In terms of software, in general, it is generally difficult to compete with monsters like "Oracle" or SAP, the level of our specialists usually only allows us to customize something to our conditions, while most often we have to hire Moscow firms to solve IT problems. But if national companies and big business do it directly, then government agencies most often receive these services through an intermediary who calls these products "made in Kazakhstan", in order to get preferences during the procurement. Our officials understand everything, and pretend to believe. Although the IT-national company "Zerde" is already quite good at fumbling in this topic.

                        And most importantly, the E-government system in Kazakhstan turned out to be very good. Moreover, many countries that launched this system earlier than the Kazakhs are now carefully studying our system, adopting some elements for themselves. Kazakhstan should not be ashamed of e-government.
                        According to the UN rating on the issue of e-government, Kazakhstan ranked out of 190 UN member countries:
                        in 2012 - 35th place;
                        in 2010 - 46th place;
                        in 2008 - 81th place;
                        in 2006 - 106th place.
                        Moreover, all CIS countries, including Russia, which began to make this system ahead of us, have already overtaken.
                        News for June 2012:
                        "In New York, representatives of Kazakhstan were presented with an award for the occupied republic second place in the E-participation index (E-participation) in the UN ranking.
                        The first place in the e-participation index was taken by South Korea and the Netherlands, the third by the USA and Great Britain. Kazakhstan is in second place with Singapore.
                        This index is determined by the possibilities of online communication between citizens and the government (blogs, twitter, social networks, Internet conferences). The UN study provides a comparative assessment of 190 UN member states on the development of e-government. "

                        So again I see no reason to sprinkle ash on my head and blame the government for wasting money.
                      11. kirill110
                        kirill110 17 February 2013 16: 31
                        +1
                        Well, I think I am talking here no less than with the former vice minister of industry and trade or the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade. I see you have prepared a lot of documents on absolutely all topics. Maybe I'm even wrong and you are the ex-vice-premier of the republic? Then your posts are clear, usually from a Mercedes through tinted windows life seems completely different. Yes, and big "projects" put down. Interestingly, several tens of billion tenge for talking with the minister :-). And the money for the most part went over the hill and will go ... the bourgeoisie have to pay for support. I myself am a little in IT, and so far I have not received much benefit from this idea (well, I'm afraid I give my data to our system, I don't trust it). For example, I once wrote in a blog about such an error;
                        egov.kz uses an invalid security certificate.
                        There is no trust in the certificate because there is no trust in the certificate of its publisher.

                        those. during the initial access to the portal there is no way to check which security certificate the portal uses, I can do the same in 5 minutes (instructions on the Internet) ... a year has passed, but things are still there (you can look at https: // egov. kz - I just copied the error, you can dig further and you will see several not entirely legal ways to take data from the population). Everything is so beautiful on the outside and "fun" on the inside. Using the example of the bourgeoisie, I would support us even more, maybe we will buy even more programs of different and interesting ones, we give them oil, they give us a virtual world.
    3. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 21: 11
      +3
      That’s why I honestly and calmly worked enough time in the civil service, now I work in business to solve my math issues. But then I plan to return to service again. Everybody works in the civil service, as in any other organization — thieves, swindlers, and normal patriots.
    4. marshes
      marshes 15 February 2013 21: 21
      +4
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      But then I plan to return to service again.

      You haven’t lured me with gingerbread since the age of 14, according to the charter, you lived, at the request of your elder brother quit, to look after my parents. smile Five years later, probably would have retired, now in private. a structure with a flexible work schedule, his own boss and investments, probably so called, help.
  • ultra
    ultra 15 February 2013 23: 15
    0
    Quote: romb
    We will simply assemble (from ready-made components) satellites of various

    This is probably a joke! lol
    1. marshes
      marshes 15 February 2013 23: 35
      +2
      Quote: ultra
      This is probably a joke!


      “France has a two-year internship at workplaces for the design, assembly, testing and operation of remote sensing stations of 45 Kazakhstani specialists,” Musabaev said.

      He noted that the stages of design and manufacture of components of medium and high resolution spacecraft at the remote sensing space station were completed. Construction and installation work is currently underway to create the ground segment of the remote sensing satellite.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 21: 27
    +2
    Quote: kirill110
    Kazakhstan has unique opportunities for growing durum wheat for example, can it develop? And can he start producing meat, wool, thoroughbred horses?

    So they are also doing this in parallel. In terms of grain, Kazakhstan’s ambitions are quite cosmic. And now we also want to create the Grain Pool (Russia agrees, Ukraine is still breaking) - then in general we will be a single fist throughout Eurasia.
    For meat - cattle will gradually be replaced by European breeding. They are more profitable than any Soviet breed. For horses - Kazakhstan now ranks third in the world for the production of horse meat (second only to Mexico and China), but the pace is growing. For five years, horse meat production has doubled. Europe is increasingly interested in horse meat and this gives us a good chance to gain a foothold in this industry (as well as in grain) as a global supplier.
    On skin and wool - work has also begun. Kazakhstan exports many skins, thereby local enterprises are deprived of this raw material. Now they more than double want to increase the export duty on this product, thereby reducing exports and tanneries will finally begin to receive the necessary resource.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 22: 14
    +3
    1) And what was the potential of the USSR after the war? Let me remind you of the gigantic destruction in the western part of the country and the loss of more than 27 million people (not counting the mutilated ones). There wasn’t much money in the budget, but nevertheless, the state had the wisdom to deal with the restoration of the country and a step into the space program. Or do you think that the USSR could painlessly deal with all affairs at the same time? No, of course, the costs of the space sector were directly offset by underfunding of social issues.
    2) And where is Khabar? Every day I look through all the news flows - both ours, and strangers, and state, and opposition. Yes, and in the regions I am more than often.
    3) Roads are built everywhere. Until 2015, 50 thousand kilometers of roads should be built and reconstructed (while the Western China-Europe road is only less than 3 thousand kilometers). In addition, new railway lines are constantly being built in the KZ.
    4) Regarding technology brands - Taldykorgan batteries (by the way, they are even exported to the all-making China), Semipalatinsk tracked all-terrain vehicles, Kostanay and Ust-Kamenogorsk vehicles, Petropavlovsk drilling rigs, Ural boats (for the Ministry of Defense and Substation KNB), a bunch of precise instruments from Kokyshetau , Shymkent bulbs, Almaty plant "Siemens", Astana locomotives, etc. etc. Yes, some are based on the notorious screwdriver assembly - but these are our first steps in industrialization. South Korea started with the assembly of Japanese cars sometime.
    5) How long, in your opinion, does any country need to become industrially "developed"? Do you think that in 20 years it is possible? What are some examples?
    1. kirill110
      kirill110 15 February 2013 22: 35
      +1
      20 years - yes, China for example. Remember China 20 years ago.
      The potential of the USSR is what, but this: The nuclear program was led by Comrade Beria (you can use his methods). Space developed as a means of nuclear weapons delivery. The ideal in society was a man of work (now in cinema and literature the ideal is manager, banker, policeman and bandit, everything else is losers)
      God forbid that before the age of 15 they make a normal route to Almaty. I’ll directly celebrate 3 days, because this is some kind of death road (in the courtyard of the 13th, they built Borovskaya for 3 years)
      Taldykurgan batteries, something the same VAG (VAG) does not give permission to put this product on cars manufactured in Ust-Kaman. Why? And KIA, too ... conspired? About light bulbs here http://www.rus.24.kz/novosti/regiony/item/sobirat-en%D0%B5rgosb%D0%B5r%D0%B5gayu
      shhi%D0%B5-lampy-v-shymk%D0%B5nt%D0%B5-okazalos-n%D0%B5vygodno
      people did not appreciate the price, phillips is apparently cheaper
      Localization for the production of cars of famous brands is not yet visible (San Yong does not count ... this is a strange office)
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 37
        +1
        1) That's about China - by completely. The current achievements of China were laid not 20 years ago, but much earlier - even under Deng Xiaoping almost 35 years ago. In addition, China still has a lot of problems that have not yet been resolved, and in the first place - this is the poverty of most of the population. The fact that they make goods for the whole world has not made the Chinese peasant a wealthy man.
        2) Beria’s methods do not suit us at all. Well, the fact that the USSR developed cosmonautics primarily for military purposes is a fact. But nevertheless, the state then needed many other elementary things than the delivery of nuclear weapons through space.
        3) Construction of the Astana-Almaty highway will begin next year. I’m waiting, for I often travel. In general, the road is still normal - but the section in front of Almaty after Balkhash is monstrously ushatana. True, they started patching something there last year, but I don’t think that something has changed dramatically. By the way, about the construction of roads - 1 linear km several years ago (Astana-Borovoe) cost $ 4,2 million. The distance between Almaty and Astana is 1229 km. How much money is needed for this construction? Space is resting.
        4) I don’t know why they don’t want to put Taldyk batteries on Bipek cars, but China bought them with a batch of 1 million units.
        5) the mistake of marketing is an eternal thing. Siemens once also messed up with phones, after which they had to sell the corresponding unit to the Chinese.
        6) There are already enough car brands, production is growing. In Almaty, Tiger armored vehicles are assembled for the Ministry of Internal Affairs, as well as Chinese FAV trucks, before that Kamaz and Gazelles were assembled. In Kokshetau, Kamaz trucks and Nefaz buses are produced, in Ust-Kamenogorsk and Kostanay - in general, a whole bunch of car brands. By the way, nothing about SunYang - law enforcement agencies willingly buy them. Also Toyota from next year promised to open a new car factory with us, they want to play jeeps.
        1. Frigate
          Frigate 16 February 2013 08: 08
          0
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          3) Construction of the Astana-Almaty highway will begin next year. I’m waiting, for I often travel. In general, the road is still normal - but the section in front of Almaty after Balkhash is monstrously ushatana. True, they started patching something there last year, but I don’t think that something has changed dramatically. By the way, about the construction of roads - 1 linear km several years ago (Astana-Borovoe) cost $ 4,2 million. The distance between Almaty and Astana is 1229 km.

          Roads were normally built from Astana, but we still need to create the development of such structures that would protect the track well from snow and snowstorm in winter. Maybe planting conifers along the road is suitable, well, so that it tightly protects?

          And here's another interesting thing for me. Trains depart from Almaty via Chu to Astana, flight Almaty-2 - Astana. Is it possible to create a direct node? connect in a convenient place so that Chu doesn’t get there, since in the Chu interchange it takes 30 minutes, plus an extra road to Chu and from Chu to Astana right away. Approximately 2-2.5 hours drive can be reduced. What am I saying, because now it seems to me that there will be even a lot of passengers in a day who are ready to buy a ticket for such a direct flight, and those who do not have time will take the train on the previous (via Chu) route. But you can’t complain either. Baiterek’s trains are so chic, everything would replace the old cars, if KTZ wants it.

          Rail transport is the safest of all, I would like it to be developed in Germany itself (I'm talking about the density of lines and directions)
          1. kirill110
            kirill110 16 February 2013 09: 59
            0
            I am not trying to tarnish everything in Kazakhstan. I just want to convey that it is better to raise the social protection of citizens than to spend a lot of money on not knowing what. We have, if a pensioner - to the bottom, God forbid, loss of ability to work - to the bottom, if you are young and not "golden" and not in the capitals - you will be a little higher than the bottom, there is no maternity capital (kind words about GDP, we have recently paid mothers were reduced). On the other hand, we need a space program, we will assemble something from parts for a bunch of yards, buy carriers (steal at all stages). I recently spoke with a friend (he is older than me, from Almaty), so he only swears at all these strategic initiatives (he is a Kazakh himself, so he cannot be reproached for his love for Russia) and there are many of them. That's what I'm talking about. On this I will probably end my posts in this thread.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 13: 17
              +3
              1) for pensions:
              "In 2013, budget expenditures for the payment of solidarity pensions will increase to 712,9 million tenge, base up to 206,6 million tenge. On the basis of these increases, the average size of pensions, taking into account basic pension payments, will amount to 42319 tenge. As noted by the vice minister of labor and social protection, the number of pensioners will grow in Kazakhstan. "This year we will cover 1 million 800 thousand people. In addition, we expect the arrival of 104 thousand pensioners," Akhmetov said. A systematic increase in the size of pension payments made it possible to provide a certain “In terms of minimum pensions, Kazakhstan is ahead of all CIS countries, we have $ 163, in Russia - $ 94. In terms of a nominal pension, we are behind - $ 244, in Russia - $ 280. This difference is explained by the fact that in the Russian Federation there are many different allowances for northern coefficient, for different climatic conditions. "
              In a word, pensions are slowly growing, the average pension this year will be almost $ 300. This is not as much as everyone would like, but higher than most neighbors (including China).
              2) Payments decreased for mothers whose salary is more than 186 thousand tenge. This affected 1% of women. Read the news carefully. They tried to make the system more equitable, given that in fact payments to "rich" women come from taxes of "poor" women.
              3) The space program, international routes, the construction of satellite plants, the cost of training scientists abroad - this is all important and everything is needed. It is these costs that will help us jump from the oil needle and essno strengthen the economy of Kazakhstan. One must think not only of current concerns, but also for decades to come. And right now it is necessary to tackle Baikonur, because after 2 years it will be too late. Kirill, we risk getting a dead city and a dead spaceport in a couple of years. What's incomprehensible? It is easier for us to invest in Baikonur than to deal with the "disposal" of its inhabitants, who will be left idle after the Russians leave for a new cosmodrome. You yourself will then begin to blame the government when hysterical articles are published about the problems of the Baikonur Kazakhstanis, when the city turns into ruins, "guarded" by Russian ensigns. Russia does not hide the fact that it will leave there, what then should Kazakhstan do? Your suggestions?
              1. kirill110
                kirill110 16 February 2013 15: 13
                0
                God forbid living on our retirement. And to Russian too. What will happen to pensions from pension funds? There is nothing there, I don’t believe that we will have normal provision for the elderly. Constant experiments with the pension system, here comes the single fund ... the confusion will be - it’s easy, and the goal is to get another source of financing, and then let the other government answer to the old people (when the time comes)
                I think the city will be dead anyway, Russian specialists will leave (there is no need to argue here). Look at the Ukrainian fleet on the Black Sea, and how? What was and what became, he practically does not exist. And thank God that the Russian Black Sea Fleet is there, otherwise some pleasure ships would be from Turkey. You write that 45 specialists are trained in France ... who is this? What will they do? The staff of only those specialists from Russia at Baikonur is 4500 people and they say that this is not enough. Specialists from other countries who own technologies simply will not be released by the special services of these countries (they have state secrets for dual-use technologies). Cooperation with France and Ukraine is analogous to buying Mistrals in Russia, providing jobs there and selling hell knows what.
                What to do, first, to prepare a program for the resettlement of citizens of the Republic of Kazakhstan who want to leave there, otherwise they will leave people in the middle of the steppe, and the climate there is not ice at all. It will be necessary to adapt these people, to help with housing and work in other areas.
                So far, we have no experience in such breakthrough projects - this is a knowledge-based business. It’s one thing to build frame houses in Astana, and to shoot missiles quite another. Well, how does it explode that we will collect and curse the government commission with Roskosmos (they have their own business there and take out the dirty linen as they don’t want). So tell me, why should Russia let us into the market of commercial launches? If only protons can be launched from here and water the steppe with heptyl. Why do we (both in Russia and Kazakhstan) constantly have an idea to surprise the whole world, here we are, but ourselves with bare backside, people live in Norway, for example, and somehow manage without a space center and their standard of living is much higher than ours.
                It seems to me that the very idea under which the Republic of Kazakhstan will take over the maintenance of the cosmodrome and the development of its space program in the future is a utopia of clean water.
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 12: 50
            +2
            1) coniferous trees, probably, do not take root in the steppe. the soil is not the same. in general, snow-protection structures are likely to be built. just in 1999-2000, when they built this route - it was already a real feat for our budget. now it’s not a problem for us to conduct the construction of roads, but at that time it was a serious strain on money. We used to try to accompany the tracks with snow-protective landings and buildings, so I think they will start doing them again.
            2) recently announced a direct railway path. the line will pass through Lake Balkhash.
            1. Frigate
              Frigate 16 February 2013 13: 59
              +1
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              1) coniferous trees, probably, do not take root in the steppe. the soil is not the same. in general, snow-protection structures are likely to be built. just in 1999-2000, when they built this route - it was already a real feat for our budget. now it’s not a problem for us to conduct the construction of roads, but at that time it was a serious strain on money. We used to try to accompany the tracks with snow-protective landings and buildings, so I think they will start doing them again.
              2) recently announced a direct railway path. the line will pass through Lake Balkhash.

              Marek, thanks for the answer
        2. kirill110
          kirill110 16 February 2013 09: 35
          0
          1. Yes, there are a lot of problems in China, but this is the 2nd economy in the world, maybe under Deng Xiaoping, but Kazakhstan did not come out with a clean field after the collapse of the USSR
          2. Ballistic missiles were being developed, and only then was space. Yes, he needed, yes, they lived in poverty, but the ideals were different, now you will agree to live in poverty, but with a rocket. After all, the agency has already requested 90 yards, transfer it to apartments for young families (even if they are rented and even at Astana prices)
          3. The road there under such a load is the road of death (as it is called in the media), the driver was sentenced just yesterday, he sent 16 people to Astana to the next world by truck in Astana. It is narrow and without infrastructure.
          4. Because they are bad (I have a familiar manager in the store - I have sworn to sell them, there are many returns)
          5. We have a lot of (marketing) something like that, they cut the ribbon and that’s all ... Even the president cursed at it (I think that they’ll cut the ribbon here too ... marketing will be bad in space, only the amounts will be different)
          6. It's all a screwdriver, we don’t even do the mats ... in any large service station you will be made such a machine or a combine. Toyota signed a memorandum - these are only intentions. Cars are collected different, but the degree of localization = 0.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 13: 33
            +2
            1) the second economy in the world, but at the same time hundreds of millions of really poor peasants and workers. A Kazakhstani can afford to ride while on vacation in Turkey or the Emirates. But the average Chinese is not financially capable at all. A Kazakhstani can afford to buy a more or less normal car, but a Chinese can afford either a bicycle or a Chinese analogue of a "Zaporozhets". So when people refer to China, it would be nice to remember the standard of living in this country.
            2) About the need for the development of astronautics - I already wrote.
            3) There is nothing to argue about the Astana-Almaty road. The road is trash. But once again I remind you, the money has already been allocated, the construction of a new road begins.
            4) There is a lot of bad marketing everywhere. that's why Polaroid, Metro Goldwin Meyer and other monsters go broke.
            5) By localization - nonsense. All agreements contain information that partial localization and transfer of certain technologies is mandatory - this is state policy. Each production has its own localization limit. For Astana electric locomotives - they will bring it up to 72%, Kokshetau Kamazs - up to 50%, Eurocopter helicopters - 30%, etc.
            1. kirill110
              kirill110 16 February 2013 15: 23
              0
              This 2 economy also develops manned space exploration, all the poor, but there are rockets ... Do you want Kazakhstan to be like that? By the way, a Kazakh man buys a car from incomes for oil, ore and other minerals that are mined by foreign companies and pay taxes to our budget (then everyone saws this cake, so the prices are so high for everything). Our labor productivity is very low, especially when it comes to the extraction of natural resources.
              By localization, you have everything in the future ... I looked at Skoda in 2005, as there was nothing local there, and in 2013 there wasn’t. Will ... yes when will it be? In the future, the kingdom of heaven will be.
  • Octavian avgust
    Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 21: 08
    +1
    Mr what i think i'm writing! It’s worthless to write for me.
  • Kasym
    Kasym 15 February 2013 20: 47
    +5
    As for highly technological products.
    Group of scientists and engineers under the scientific guidance of Dr. Nyk Bimyrzaeva and Yakysheva are working on the creation of a new generation mass spectrometer (the main instrument on the Phobos Grint spacecraft (Russia), which, as is known, suffered a catastrophe). The state allocates 300 dollars. USA to create an expert. instrument. Work began on the basis of the INP in the village. Alatay. All to maths. calculations and theoretical calculations are ready. The device will be ready in 000. . Although it is possible and faster. The capabilities of the device will be an order of magnitude superior to world analogues.
    The same group of y scientists carried out theoretical work in improving the electron microscope, which will lead to the creation of a device an order of magnitude superior to world analogues.
    At the moment, all world academic journals (journals) have lined up to publish their academic studies. Anyway, in the field of reading electronic lenses we are ahead of the rest. So there will be something to launch into space. I gave an example of the work of only one science school. In recent years, Kazakhstan has conducted research competitions (5 projects are selected every six months) to create knowledge-intensive products under state. financing. Sooner or later, this should give its results and remove dependence on the export of raw materials.
    According to UNESCO estimates, the territory of the KZ is able to feed 1 billion people. Starting this year, preparations began for the agro-industrial complex development program. According to our officials, a tremendous amount will be allocated for the development of livestock and crop production. As well as the processing of this product.
    But there are also negative points. Young people do not go to science. Salaries are too small. For example, in the head VYZ KZ KazGY them. Al-Farabi from 16 (I do not remember exactly) there were 2 departments of mehmat with a team of 60 people. They believe that a real sabotage has been carried out against our education system - a Western system has been adopted. education. I know her. This is a real debilitation of our youth. In Russia, the same trend. In our society, this problem has already begun to rise. Already whole state. organizations require a tip back. education system. And without science, the creation of high-tech products is impossible.
    Here is my opinion.
    1. Kasym
      Kasym 15 February 2013 21: 07
      +5
      Damn, I wanted to add something and everything disappeared. I don’t get it. Okay, the children come, maybe they can recover.
    2. Frigate
      Frigate 15 February 2013 21: 16
      0
      Quote: Kasym
      Kasym

      Hello dear, would you visit us more often, thank you.
      Quote: Kasym
      This is a real debilitation of our youth. In Russia, the same trend. In our society, this problem has already begun to rise.

      Yes there is
      I also heard that the RK allocates good grants for technology, that is, for those young people who can come up with something that will help the industrialization of the RK, and in this connection they simplified the patent laws of the RK, not in vain.
      And the main problem, no one is striving for such a program, everyone wants everything at once according to the Western type of life
  • texnar
    texnar 15 February 2013 14: 27
    +2
    kirill110 correctly writes, we still have a lot of problems that have not been resolved, but we will still squander the money for Baikonur, if Kazakhstan would deal with NANOTECHNOLOGIES or build a silicone valley. Absurd hi
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 14: 58
      +1
      the turn will come to nanotechnology. And "information technology parks" have already been created, they are slowly expanding their work.
  • kirill110
    kirill110 15 February 2013 14: 40
    +4
    texnar,
    I am glad that you share my point of view. It is worth noting that this spending will be very "opaque". Neither the Accounts Committee of the Republic of Kazakhstan, nor any other structure will be able to check on what billions of budget money were spent. Oh, how little people understand these technologies in our country. This is a very good feeder for corruption schemes. Further, the question arises, why does Kazakhstan need carriers? Launch your own satellites? What for? A service for topographic survey from space or other tasks can be ordered and paid for by partners specializing in this - it is cheaper and easier (it is also easier to control costs). Do commercial launches ... and who will give us the commercial launch markets? Friendship is friendship, and tobacco apart, as they say.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 15: 09
      +1
      Here is the boltology ... I explain:
      How did you decide that spending would be opaque? Do you generally understand how the country's budget is formed and how it is controlled? I see immediately that Nichrome in this do not rummage.
      Regarding the small number of space specialists - yes, there is such a problem, therefore, they are now attracting Russian specialists and preparing their own. Once we had not enough naval officers for the Caspian, but now there is an overabundance.
      Carriers are needed to make money by launching satellites. And not only strangers. further - more space projects. I understand that you care more for Russia's interests in this matter.
      In addition, for security reasons, we need our own satellites and their management is required completely under our own control. Only an enemy or a fool can give communication (including government) and remote sensing to the control of other states.
      And if you are so concerned about the interests of Russia, might it be better to think about changing citizenship too? It will be more logical that way. And why do you need such principles to Kazakhstan? Kazakhstanis of all nationalities should be in one team of like-minded people. Anyone who believes that he lives among "monkeys" and "ungrateful natives" in a banana republic under the control of an idiot king - it is time to go home. And from there to defend the interests of the "correct" country.
      1. kirill110
        kirill110 15 February 2013 15: 35
        +5
        Marek rozny,
        I see you understand, can you tell me how RBC works? How do budgets protect? Did you prepare the rationale and protect the budgets? You draw conclusions without knowing the person ... What are the carriers? What are the earnings? What are you talking about? We do not produce components for carriers, nor technologies, not even fuel. Who will give or sell all this to you? Nobody will let us into this market. There is a war in the markets in the world. And the spending will still be opaque, I won’t even argue here. Which satellites do you need? What are they for the 16 millionth country? What special communications from Akorda to the House of Ministries need satellite communications if they are 500 meters away?
        And last, where did you write a word about Russia? You natspat I have a look. Where and with what citizenship I’ll decide for myself and I think Kazakhstan probably brought more benefits to you. I have lived here for 6 generations, and my children are 7th. You need to think soberly, I think the people of Kazakhstan do not really want to surprise the whole world, but live in poverty themselves. You, I look with the USA flag here. Probably Bolashak? Or abandoned the homeland? How long have you been on the periphery of the Republic, and even in regional cities? This is not the capital and Almaty. When spaceships will plow the expanses of the big Mlyn theater. So tell me, have there been at least 20 implemented high-tech projects in 5 years (with a pile of dough)? And are they known abroad? And then we'll talk about cuts, kickbacks and fraud during the delivery of the next enterprises. Only screwdriver assembly of Ust-Kaman, Kustanay and Astana, not to indicate chur - this can be done by Uncle Vasya in the garage, well, or an average car repair plant.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 21: 01
          +3
          1) I spent three years in the state budget. What is the state budget, how it is formed, distributed and controlled I know "inside and out." Prior to that, he worked in another government agency and formed budget documents "from below". He took part in the development of various budget programs in various spheres of the Kazakh economy, and also had a hand in certain strategic documents. In total, he worked in the public administration system for 7 years.
          2) Regarding the space services market: yes, no one is waiting for us there. However, this is not a reason to give up. Once upon a time no one on the nuclear market wanted to perceive us, but now Kazakhstan is inundated with international orders, overtaking all other countries producing nuclear fuel (I will note again that KZ is the only state in the world that owns both Soviet and Western technologies in this area, which allows you to feel free when working with any types of reactors). Now we have the money, ambitions and tools to get various technologies. Our goals are really daring, but quite realistic. Moreover, the implementation of the tasks began not in December after Musabayev's speech, but back in the early 2000s. It's just that just now the Russian female journalists noticed this and decided to make the "sensation of the day". We need a starting complex - and we will get it (the oligarch Makhmudov will not sit there for long). We need a launch vehicle - and we will get it (for its part, Kazakhstan has fulfilled all the financial terms of the agreement on this issue; now it remains to be fair to put the squeeze on Roskosmos over Angara or the transition of the Baiterek project to Zenit). With regard to fuel, this is generally the smallest of the existing problems.
          3) Special communications is a much bigger topic than just the connection between the building of the Moscow Region and Akorda in Astana. In addition, it is necessary in general to keep all communications under our own control, and not to depend on foreign states, which can cut off all communications for us at any time. Satellites are also needed for continuous remote sensing of the earth, the need for constant monitoring is high. Buying information every time is a very expensive business. And this is necessary for the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Emergencies, the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Transport and other departments. I'm not even saying that we need to keep an eye on the foreign territory of a potential enemy. What else do we need space for? In order to develop science, related industries, to have a "product" in the form of products and technologies with which we can exchange the knowledge and products we need. Young people became interested in technical education in Kazakhstan, and already several brothers graduate from engineering and technical universities (including military ones). This is no longer the generation of the 90s.
          4) I am a convinced patriot of my country who believes and works to ensure that Kazakhstan achieves success in any area. I am not a national patriot, not a shovik, not a hurray-patriot. I want Kazakhstan to be developed scientifically, technically, materially and socially. Do you need a space program for this? So it is necessary to do it, regardless of the costs and opposition from the outside. No one really is going to have a competitor at his side, no country in the world needs Kazakhstan developed. It is only necessary for us - the people of Kazakhstan. I am always happy with critical controversies, reasonable doubts and counter-suggestions. Moreover, if you wrote that “we will become a space power without any problems,” I would start arguing with you and prove what pitfalls we need to overcome. But I saw only the negative on your part and the absolute denial of Kazakhstan in this area. This made me assume your preference for Russian interests instead of Kazakhstani ones. Moreover, in the last 2 months I have already read many dozen messages from Russians from Russia on the site in the spirit of "Kazakhs have no place in space, let only sheep graze". All this hangs under every article about Baikonur.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 21: 02
            +4
            5) The American flag is not my fault. This is a jamb of a site or provider. I am currently in Astana on Kenesary Street. Write to me in PM, and I will call you back from the Kazakhstan number.
            6) Over the past three months has been repeatedly in the Karaganda, Kostanay, North Kazakhstan, Akmola regions. Both in cities and in villages. In general, in Kazakhstan, it was not only in Aktau and Ust-Kamenogorsk, although it was repeatedly in other areas of Western and Eastern Kazakhstan. In addition, he has visited quite a lot in the CIS and in foreign countries.
            7) Screwdriver assembly is a necessary stage for creating your own scientific, technical and economic base. To create complex production from scratch with 100% localization is now beyond our power. As an example, we took the experience of other countries in Southeast Asia, where we also started with screwdriver industries, and now they themselves generate technologies. In addition, it does not always make sense to create 100% local production. The same Eurocopter helicopters in Germany are made from parts and assemblies from France (housing), Japan (engine) and other countries. In Germany, part production and general assembly are carried out. This is normal. Something is a reason to produce completely, but something is better to do with foreign subcontractors, it all depends on the importance of production, economic feasibility and strategic goals.
            1. Frigate
              Frigate 15 February 2013 21: 17
              +2
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              This is normal. Something is a reason to produce completely, but something is better to do with foreign subcontractors, it all depends on the importance of production, economic feasibility and strategic goals.

              Thanks for the review.
            2. Kasym
              Kasym 15 February 2013 21: 46
              +5
              Marék, hello! As for atomic physics and KAZATOMPROM, I fully support it. And I want, with your permission, to add something. The KZ has accumulated a lot of experience and scientific potential in this area. Which can be introduced in medicine, biology, etc. . Personally familiar with these fellows.
              Generally speaking, many years pass from theory to practice. The smallest gap was when creating a computer. But then there was a race between the USA and the USSR for space. Who won, everyone knows.
              To achieve excellence in high-tech industries, the countries of the CU simply need to unite the scientific potentials that have been very good over the past 20 years. Now I watch news on telly about fake dissertations in Russia. I personally saw dissertations in mathematics and physics, where there are no formulas. And how do you think who the authors are? That's right, bureaucrats. So, this is not only in Russia. Dyrdom full. Under the Union, this was impossible.
              It is necessary to raise this issue. In science y we have people from 55 and older, I have a variety of applied sciences. Generation gap is evident. What comes next?
              1. Frigate
                Frigate 15 February 2013 21: 55
                +2
                Quote: Kasym
                It is necessary to raise this issue. In science y we have people from 55 and older, I have a variety of applied sciences. Generation gap is evident. What comes next?

                I think it is necessary to establish optimistic thoughts in my head and use all the good from the USSR and from the "Western" and Eastern civilizations
              2. romb
                romb 15 February 2013 22: 42
                +1
                The KZ has accumulated a lot of experience and scientific potential in this area. Which can be introduced in medicine, biology, etc. . Personally familiar with these fellows.

                good
                At the beginning of the two thousandths, I had to hear quite an interesting observation from Japanese nuclear scientists: if Kazakhstan wanted to have nuclear weapons in its arsenal, then it would have already created it. The raw material base and scientific potential in this area allow us to do this completely.
                1. Kasym
                  Kasym 16 February 2013 01: 41
                  +2
                  Rhombus, good night! +! I didn’t want to write about it so that I would not be declared a militarist and a Nazi, but since you mentioned it. Half a year, a year maximum. The Japanese in this area do not surpass us in any way. Trust me .
              3. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 23: 01
                +3
                Kasym, good evening)
                Yes, we have an age gap among scientists. In the 90s, no one went there, only now a stratum of young people in science has appeared, who received education and experience abroad. The rate is on them. Bolashak residents alone return 1000-1500 people every year. Most of them were educated in the scientific and technical field. "Space engineering and technology" has finally appeared in the list of specialties of higher education. Earlier, essno, there was no such specialty in KZ.
                In addition, great hopes are placed on Nazarbayev University, which should become the heart of Kazakhstan's applied science. For these purposes, the state really spares no money. The scientific and teaching staff there is more than serious (mostly foreign). This university reminds me of the Academy of Sciences under Peter the Great.
                By the way, the well-known Ken Alibek (Kanatzhan Alibekov), a world-famous microbiologist, came to work in Kazakhstan. He now heads the Department of Chemistry and Biology at NU.
                1. Kasym
                  Kasym 16 February 2013 00: 27
                  +2
                  And the same to you, Dear!
                  Here there are questions (about Bolashak students and foreign teaching staff, with the exception of the CIS). I will try to convey the problems associated with this. Here's how a student turns into a scientific frame. So the math. From the 3rd course, specialization in mathematics begins. disciplines. This is where the work of his supervisor (NR) begins. He sets the task for the coursework for the student. 3, 4, 5 courses. With each course, the task becomes more complicated on one topic (for example, mathematical analysis) and on each course he conducts a defense under the supervision of his NR (he supervises the student throughout his studies at the university), including his thesis for the 5th year. After graduating from the university, if we speak in the army language, he is spirit. After that, at least 3 years of graduate school, where at the very beginning he is given the task of obtaining the academic degree of Cand. sciences. He puts it on HP, the one who worked with him as a student. years. Further, passing the candidate minima and defending the thesis - there are already elements of novelty in his task, i.e. before him, no one in the world had solved such a problem. Along the way, it is necessary to make and publish about 10 scientific articles in scientific journals (at the moment there is only Vestnik left in the KZ, and there is a queue there). Now he can be called young. It is still raw, about 25 years old. It still needs to be supervised and it is done by the same HP. If HP sees the potential of this young person, then it is necessary to further work on it.
                  Here I will make a digression on the importance of the work of HP. He poses a task that no one has solved. It must be correctly posed, if it is incorrect, then the problem does not have an exact solution - and this is a complete madhouse for a mathematician (I saw this, in time it can stretch for ten years or more). In addition, HP must know the algorithms for solving the problem. A young man uses it, if the solution comes to a standstill, then HP gives a different algorithm, etc. until a solution is found. That is, it is the painstaking work of HP and the applicant. Work is done individually with this pier. people ..
                  To be continued.
                  1. Kasym
                    Kasym 16 February 2013 01: 01
                    +3
                    To be continued. Why am I explaining all this. HP must work with a young scientist for at least 8 years or more. And that he is a foreigner, he signed a contract with the University of Nazarbayev for 5 years and bye-bye. And we need him to leave his scientific legacy here in the KZ. And then he supervised it further. This is how science schools are created. For example, my supervisor raised at least 60 candidates. sciences, from the bottom 3 doctors of sciences. The foreigner, on the other hand, came to earn money (at times he receives more domestic personnel, sometimes 5 times more) and after a while he will leave. But generally speaking, maturity in science, as well as in politics, comes late, about 50 years old.
                    It’s the same with Bolashak’s people, they’re all raw. It is not clear by what program he studied, what his base is. For example, our doctors of science do not really want to work with such people. This is a real crap. And the guys are struggling and can not find a use for themselves, in the end they leave.
                    Therefore, I think that Nazarbayev University cannot even be compared with KazSU. Although there are domestic personnel there, for example, Otelbaev (trained about 80 candidates of science). It will take decades for this University to take place. He should have his own scientific "aura", if I may say so, his own charisma. And the teaching staff should be permanent, where everyone knows who is capable of what and who can replace whom. This is not the Barys hockey team, where you can change the half of the staff and get results.
                    These are the considerations. And on account of the return of scientific personnel, I only welcome, for such it is necessary to create all conditions - laboratories, scientific instruments, and here funds cannot be desired. This is a "piece goods".
                    With great respect to all forum users.
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 01: 25
                      +2
                      Kasym, I’m not strong on the issue of personnel training for scientists. I only know that they invited foreigners and that the Bolashakites are riveted. And which system is better and why - for me terra incognita.
                      By the way, Ken Alibek, judging by his interview, was given everything necessary for the work that he asked. And he is not the only scientist who returned from beyond our hillock from our former. Alibek just mentioned, because the name is quite loud.
                      And he compared Peter the Great with the Academy of Sciences, since then the Academy of Sciences was a place where foreign scientists were recruited to train local cadres, and also conducted various applied research.
                      1. Kasym
                        Kasym 16 February 2013 02: 40
                        +3
                        Dear Marek! Thank you for your attention and discussion. I always read your comments with interest! Good luck and see you soon! Goodnight ! Regards, Dauren.
                      2. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 13: 35
                        +2
                        Rahmet, Dauren)
                        Izzi nietpen.
                  2. Kasym
                    Kasym 16 February 2013 01: 29
                    +3
                    And one more shocking moment. DISSERTING COUNCILS CLOSED. And where now to conduct the defense of their scientific works, to conduct scientific discussions? After all, it is there that our minds and docks all gather together, and even foreign ones come. It was because of this that I stopped working on my doctoral dissertation. I was advised to go to the Russian Federation or Kyrgyzstan, but I refused. Where to publish? And all because the bureaucrats want to get a degree. I understand the problem with the humanities, where bureaucrats are trying to defend themselves. But what has to do with the fundamental sciences. In short, we cut ourselves without a knife. And there are practically no scientists of my age left (44 this year). For 17 years he worked at KazSU and was forced to leave, was laid off - no aksakals should be laid off. Just do not think that because of this I write about negative moments and frustrate evil. "At least mathematics is needed to put my head in order." I come every day without hind legs. I only have time to look through this site, but most often there is no time before writing comments. And I didn't look for another place - my direction was only in KazSU, and it is not interesting to be engaged only in teaching.
                  3. Frigate
                    Frigate 16 February 2013 08: 19
                    +1
                    I personally know one person who is currently working on a patent for the development and exploitation of shale gas, oil, and other mineral deposits. I agree with him and his method will save as much as possible both money and the environment than with the current method of drilling (traditional). This project will significantly reduce investment by the Sheikhs of the emirates themselves. But now he has problems with the staff, that is, the project is not completely composed as expected and there are few interested people, but I think the problem will be gradually solved
        2. kirill110
          kirill110 15 February 2013 22: 02
          +5
          You know, I have no negative. I just saw a feasibility study that they write for knocking out money (for absurd inventions, development and work) and vice versa they cut the budget where it is not necessary. 100 schools and 100 hospitals for 3 years (2007) cannot finish. Tired of seeing how, hiding behind high slogans, comrades are looking for a way to squander billions of money from the budget. We still have the Expo on the nose, there will also go out unmeasured yards.
          Here you are writing about Uranus, but deposits have been purchased. There are no enrichment technologies, Kazakhstan is a non-nuclear power (well, there are no centrifuges and deep enrichment plants). All oil was bought back from the fields; everything was sold long ago. Take off your pink glasses at last. Well, what is the negative here? Fuel for our missiles is not a problem, but high-octane gasoline is a whole problem. 20 years - there are no new refineries, we agree with Russia every year, we introduce a moratorium on fuel exports, I am silent about quality.
          You can get a complex, but missiles are a question. I do not defend Russia, but for example you own a unique specialty and you have a shaft of orders, will you pass on experience and secrets to someone?
          Buying information every time is just cheaper, bought - paid, did not like - ordered from another. And then a whole army of "cosmonauts" with one satellite, the other flew away somewhere. Moreover, this army of officials wants to master the budgets (an indicator of work, tomorrow we will master more than yesterday, and for not mastering the hat later), receive bonuses and high salaries and you will not get them anywhere. It is useless to observe the enemy ... Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan have just been observed, it is useless to observe the other opponents - everything is in the SCO and the CSTO, Russia will defend it anyway. Nuclear weapons are a weighty argument for them. Only today the former deputy. Minister of Defense wrote that our weapons are old and useless.
          Regardless of the costs - this has already happened in the USSR, they also did not look - everything is in space and defense, how it ended - everyone knows.
          Bottom line: you need to count the money, you are not looking up a new crisis. You need to invest in people, education, medicine, culture. Yes, not so cool, but it's nice to see a healthy, educated and cultural society.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 23: 44
            +3
            I saw enough absurd feasibility studies in the Ministry of Industry in the 2000s. Then the scientists went to the MIT in schools to get government funding. Some of the ideas were implemented (mainly in the field of metallurgy and chemistry), but some were openly adventurous. How many idiots had to listen, and many of them are quite smart people, they are simply prone to fraud. Essno, when they were refused, they started yelling that the state did not support science and created a whole wave of articles in the media, where dumb journalists, without delving into the essence of the matter, chewed "the state does not give a damn about scientists, profited all polymers, cut the dough, officials - parasites ". Moreover, not only our Benders in Edison's skin were in the queue, but also Russian noodles. What kind of projects were offered - super-computers, time machines, perpetual motion machines and other rubbish. They even went out to famous people, asking for their intercession before the state commission. Once I even had to communicate with Olzhas Suleimenov, who asked for help from a Moscow company in financing "super-computers". My heart almost sank, but I had to refuse. True, Suleimenov honestly admitted that he did not understand anything in this matter, but they say, "they are just good people, we need to figure it out and help" ... And there was such garbage, apparently the Russians considered us to be completely steppe sheep. But then they also tried to lure us away with grandmothers, in Moscow they pleased us as best they could. I, a brazen Mongolian muzzle, ate everything and drank everything, promised to "delve into", but dashed off to the government that "the idea as a whole is interesting, but does not represent any benefit due to its ... practical impracticability."
            At the same time, they often gave out money for very controversial, but quite promising developments, especially for initial R&D. Still, this is science - experiments are required. But without fanaticism. For then the demand was real.
            About the program of 100 schools and 100 hospitals - even if it has not yet been completed, but nevertheless, it has generally had a beneficial effect on the situation. Although without embezzlement in some cases, kanesha was not complete. We even have cooks in kindergartens stealing, what can we say for big projects.
            About uranium - the main production is carried out by Kazatomprom. Some of the deposits are being developed jointly with Russians and foreigners. All this is not just like that, but was done in exchange for technology. As a result, we have on hand a complete cycle of creating both types of uranium fuel. So far, this is more than enough. What further plans for uranium from Kazatomprom I do not know, but I think, if you wish, you can read on their website.
            The oil industry was sold according to a similar scenario. Some of the amers are for new technologies (and there are enough of them in this industry) and investments, some for the Russians (strengthening allied relations), some for the Chinese, in order to reduce dependence on the pipe passing through the Russian Federation (Russia at times really twisted our hands because of this). But little by little the oil industry is "accidentally" taken back in favor of Kazakhstan. Today, Statoil Norwegian decided to leave here. I also met and worked with Statoil when they first came to us. And in general, there are many alcohol associations with them)))) The Chinese factor will soon decrease, the Chinese have assets that are already half-dead, and on which the volume of production will soon begin to decline. But the main thing is that BIG OIL - Kashagan will soon go! What we are currently extracting are flowers compared to the future Kashagan hydrocarbons. This is generally the largest investment project in the world in the field of oil and gas. Realistically, no country, no company can pull it alone, only with the help of a consortium. The costs there are such that cosmonautics never dreamed of. By the way, in general, expenses for astronautics are not so astronomical. Roads are more expensive than building rockets and launch sites.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 15 February 2013 23: 45
              +2
              Regarding the refinery, work is underway to increase their capacity. It is in the interests of the state. Another thing is that this is a very costly and lengthy business. After all, it is necessary to expand everything wisely - so that there are no unnecessary capacities that will be idle, and at the same time make sure that after 5 years there is no need to rebuild everything, trying to increase the capacity of the refinery again. These plants generally look like mini-cities almost. There just can’t do anything with the kondachka. And for 20 years - well, Duc, they have only recently been bought out by the state. Before that, they were owned by private traders.
              About the moratorium - well, excuse me, give free rein to our oil dealers to leave the country without gas at all. Moreover, no matter how much we produce, they will sell 100% of any amount of fuel. Do not forget that the price of fuel abroad is much higher than ours, even taking into account transportation. We talked about leather above - the situation is the same - 100% of leathers are exported from the country, leaving Kazakh processors without raw materials. So a moratorium is a necessary, necessary and ... eternal thing in our conditions.
              We will get missiles unambiguously. This is an almost settled issue.
              Regarding technology transfer, we don’t need much yet. In addition, there are Ukrainians and French who are willing to cooperate. And if anything, we’ll buy as many Russian specialists as needed and no matter how much it costs.
              About remote sensing - the state must independently control this process, and not use other people's services. Who knows how accurate information will be given to us. And information is required very often, almost daily (condition of fields, drought, fires, wetlands, monitoring of border areas - Chinese in the first place, etc.). It's like a phone - you don’t have a phone, so you use someone else’s services to call from time to time, and there is a phone - you will constantly talk on it in the required quantity.
              1. kirill110
                kirill110 16 February 2013 10: 58
                0
                This is all an intergalactic chess tournament in New Vasyuki ... I’m talking about the ban on enriching uranium and on nuclear-free status - you are talking about the full cycle, on Kashagan - 16% are ours - the rest are investors ... you are the opposite. What prevented the construction of new refineries for our grades of oil? After all, the same Pavlodar refinery works on Russian oil. What Russian specialists will come here, what are you talking about? We have a negative migration balance for the last year - everything is in line at the Russian Embassy (the unlimited program is a compatriot accepted by the GDP), and you are the opposite ... a lot has come here from Russia, only athletes who are denied access to the Olympics for some reason, championships, etc., so then they will leave ... they are here for trips.
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 13: 51
                  +3
                  1) Enrichment of Kazakh uranium:
                  "At present, the State Program of Industrial Development of the Republic of Kazakhstan for 2010–2014 provides for the creation of all the missing links of the nuclear fuel cycle - conversion and enrichment of uranium, production of fuel assemblies.
                  To this end, the KazAtomProm company plans to launch an enterprise for the production of uranium hexafluoride together with the Canadian Cameco, gain access to enrichment technologies in cooperation with the Russian Rosatom, and set up production of fuel assemblies together with the French Areva. These projects will diversify the business and will increase the added value of the supplied products.
                  Currently, the issue of construction of a nuclear power plant (NPP) with VBER-300 reactor installations in the Mangistau region of the Republic of Kazakhstan is also being considered. "
                  2) On the oil industry - I’m again gruing, foreigners are slowly being kicked out, increasing the Kazakhstani share. But we can’t completely blow them out, a too expensive project.
                  3) Work to increase the capacity of all three existing refineries is already underway. A new refinery this year will begin to be built in the North Kazakhstan region (Bulaevo). The Pavlodar refinery will continue to work on Russian oil. And Orenburg - in Kazakh.
                  4) Russians and other specialists will easily be "bought" if needed. Just like we invited expats to work in other areas. I mean head-hunting work, not voluntary migration.
                  5) Where did you get the nonsense about the negative migration balance? He comes to Kazakhstan more than he leaves. And this trend has been almost ten years. And from Russia to Kazakhstan comes about the same as leaves from Kazakhstan to Russia.
                  1. kirill110
                    kirill110 16 February 2013 15: 40
                    0
                    In a year we will see what is there with the full cycle of uranium. So far, enrichment is a dual technology and can be used to produce nuclear weapons. And we have an international treaty. True, Russia helped (thanks for this to a neighbor) to provide access to enrichment facilities in Russia in Angarsk on a parity basis, Kazatomprom and Techsnabexport established a joint venture, CJSC Uranium Enrichment Center.

                    About gasoline. Everything in the future, while reality is Mr. Mynbayev’s speeches about price increases (in Russia they are higher, but the excise taxes are higher there, and we have 2 times less excise taxes, but we need to equalize prices) and talk that we need gasoline from China to carry (there you can wash some money apparently) Everything is in the future .... we will do it, we will do it. At our place of work such employees sometimes come across in the future, consult for weeks, etc., but do not linger for a long time, the business cannot feed people who do everything in the future.
  • Rds12
    Rds12 15 February 2013 16: 00
    0
    oh ... how many specialists ... how much pathos ....

    from imperial manners are not tired, huh?

    they’re reading the comments of some individuals and I wonder… well, Hitler’s grandchildren, Aryans, the highest race, you are nobody without us (no one except us) ... keep up the good work!

    I will not even explain the outright stupidity of some individuals who do not even know the essence of the matter and who argue the yaki gurus who have learned Zen! Darwin Award to the studio!

    the author of the article - no comment. Amen.
    1. Frigate
      Frigate 15 February 2013 16: 49
      -1
      Quote: RDS12
      the author of the article - no comment. Amen.

      Yes, in reality, the author and his article do not deserve any attention, only the justification of imperial manners in their heads, and smart leaders of countries still make better decisions
      1. Octavian avgust
        Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 21: 26
        0
        Mr. You have not a single sensible comment. You would rather think YOUR HEAD. I understand that Marek Gamshik is an untouchable authority for you. You would be better off rebuilding from his system, otherwise you will fall into an intellectual dependence.
        1. Frigate
          Frigate 15 February 2013 21: 57
          +1
          Quote: Octavian avgust
          Mr. You have not a single sensible comment. You would rather think YOUR HEAD. I understand that Marek Gamshik is an untouchable authority for you. You would be better off rebuilding from his system, otherwise you will fall into an intellectual dependence.

          Inadequate. Thank God that Russia has Putin and Kazakhstan has Nazarbayev.
          Give power to people like you, so beat Gorbachev’s record for the collapse of the country
          1. texnar
            texnar 15 February 2013 22: 08
            0
            And what will happen if you give power to you? No need to get personal, this is one of the rules of the debate. Do not arrange on a normal site .... h and flood
            1. Octavian avgust
              Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 22: 24
              0
              Thank you friend, you are an intelligent reader with good manners.
            2. Frigate
              Frigate 15 February 2013 22: 26
              +1
              Dear, HERE IS THIS, how do you understand?
              Quote: Octavian avgust
              I understand that Marek Gamshik


              Marek Gamshik and this writing style, a hint of Marek Rozny

              But this?
              Quote: Octavian avgust
              I understand that Marek Gamshik is an untouchable authority for you. You would be better off rebuilding from his system, otherwise you will fall into an intellectual dependence.

              This is an insult to me and Marek Rozny only because I support Marek Rozny in this topic

              So I addressed Octavian correctly - INadequate and based on this I can already conclude that you are a Troll
              Here Cyril - well done, quickly found a common language and discusses on the topic and without whining. And you and the octavin clean me and troll

              Who wants to understand here
              http://topwar.ru/24233-14-fevralya-1483-goda-rodilsya-babur-tigr-velikiy-zavoeva

              tel-indii.html # comment-id-923010

              22 time: 09
              1. Octavian avgust
                Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 22: 45
                -1
                We intelligent people can discuss and negotiate. drinks
              2. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 41
                +2
                oh well react to this especially. if he wrote on the topic - another thing)
          2. Octavian avgust
            Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 22: 26
            -2
            Look at my nickname, he speaks for himself))) If you want to talk, then where and when?
            1. Kaa
              Kaa 16 February 2013 04: 15
              +5
              Quote: Octavian avgust
              If you want to talk, then where and when

              Colleague, this expression is rather ambiguous ... it can be mistakenly (or not?) Regarded as a threat, I recommend to refrain from such ambiguities hi
              1. Tsoi is alive
                Tsoi is alive 16 February 2013 04: 26
                +2
                Quote: Kaa
                Quote: Octavian avgust
                If you want to talk, then where and when

                Colleague, this expression is rather ambiguous ... maybe wrong (or not?)

                Kaa ... wise Kaa, let’s come and see who’s whose knee-high boots will kneel down?

              2. Octavian avgust
                Octavian avgust 16 February 2013 10: 28
                +2
                Yes, in this context. But we know each other well and does not imply a threat. I'll be careful. good
                1. Kaa
                  Kaa 16 February 2013 12: 56
                  0
                  Quote: Octavian avgust
                  I'll be careful.

                  OK! fellow
        2. hommer
          hommer 15 February 2013 22: 46
          +3
          Quote: Octavian avgust
          Mr. You have not a single sensible comment. You would rather think YOUR HEAD.


          Well, you can’t give assessments if the opponent’s opinion does not coincide with yours, dear Octavian avgust. Marek Rozny relatively recently on the site, however, his judgments and comments are always interesting and informative. I enjoyed reading his comments on historical and linguistic issues.
          A man really knows a lot, it is noticeable how much he loves and worries about Kazakhstan. Hope you too.
          It is unlikely that he needs protection, but rudeness sometimes disarms normal people.
          And about Baikonur and space programs there was an exhaustive comment. Ascetic to an earlier article on the same topic - there are huge thefts in Roscosmos that are comparable to Serdyukovskys and an attempt to put a smokescreen on this obscenity with a shift of attention to bloated differences.

          And what does the footballer Gamshik have to do with it ?!
          1. Octavian avgust
            Octavian avgust 15 February 2013 22: 54
            +1
            This is so our humor, those who know will understand. I don’t want to offend anyone, just this character crashed ship unreasonably responds and lies impudently. Read his comments. He is an embittered nationalist, anger blinded him. I'm trying to help him somehow
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 16 February 2013 00: 40
            +2
            Thanks, Hommer.
  • Lindon
    Lindon 13 August 2013 14: 47
    0
    Another Proton accident put an end to the issue of using these media.