Tank gun caliber 140 millimeters

74
By the middle of the last century, the development of weapons tanks reached its peak in the field of calibers. In our country and abroad, several models of heavy tanks armed with 152 mm caliber guns appeared. Attempts were made to install on a tracked armored vehicle with a turret and more serious weapons, but they were unsuccessful. Moreover, already in the sixties, the military and tank builders realized that guns of 152 or 155 millimeters were even redundant for a modern tank and therefore all modern vehicles were equipped with 120- or 125-mm guns. Nevertheless, from time to time there are projects concerning tools of a larger caliber. So, in the late eighties at the Leningrad Kirov plant was created an experimental tank "Object 292". An armored vehicle based on the T-80 tank carried a new turret with a 152 mm rifled gun. However, a number of technical and economic reasons did not allow the project to advance further than the tests of the first prototype.

"292 Object"


NATO guns

At about the same time that the Soviet "292 Object" was being created, several European countries were discussing the possibility of developing a new weapon, one for their tanks. As the caliber was considered as the usual 120 millimeters, and more solid 140. It is noteworthy that the result of the negotiations was a rather interesting approach to the creation of new guns. According to the memorandum signed by the USA, France, Germany, and Great Britain, all countries could develop their own tank guns, but the parameters of ammunition, which were the same for all, were stipulated. In addition, the dimensions of the breech breech, some nuances of the chamber structure and parameters of the propellant charge were standardized: pressure in the bore, etc. In other words, an international agreement meant the development of several new guns, designed for a single standard shot. The first standard ammunition was the APFSDS armor-piercing pierced projectile.

In the late eighties, it was planned that the new guns, created by the program FTMA (Future Main Tank Armament - " weapon tank of the future "), will become the main armament of tanks of NATO countries. The first such tanks were supposed to go to the troops tentatively at the beginning of the XXI century. From the United States in the creation of new guns of NATO, several companies participated, including Rockwell and Lockheed. In the UK, a similar task was assigned to the Royal Ordnance Factory Nottingham and several related businesses. France and Germany were represented in the program by GIAT Industries and Rheinmetall, respectively. In the course of research and design work, all participating firms studied a variety of issues. The greatest attention was paid to the development of new 140-mm guns on existing tanks. For example, the German "Rheinmetall" tried to install his gun on the tank Leopard 2.

USA, ATAC project

The result of the work of American engineers was the ATAC complex (Advanced TAnk Cannon - "Perspective tank gun"), which consisted of a smooth-bore gun XM291, automatic loader XM91 and a number of related equipment. In the future, this complex was planned to be installed on the upgraded M1 Abrams tank in the course of the next work to improve it. For this reason, a CATT-B test bench (Component Advanced Technology Test-Bed - “Test bench for testing new technologies and units”) was created to test the cannon. CATT-B was a significantly modified M1A1 tank chassis with a new suspension, electronics, etc. Prior to the completion of work on this stand, the XM291 gun was installed on the stationary unit and on the modified tower of the Abrams tank.



The XM291 gun was a smooth-bore tank gun caliber 140 millimeters with separate-sleeve loading. The barrel was equipped with a heat shield. With the new 140-mm split-shot, the muzzle energy of the XM291 cannon was about twice as high as the same parameter of the 120-mm M256 cannon mounted on the latest American tanks. At the same time, thanks to the use of the original construction of the cradle and the recoil devices, it was possible to ensure a substantial weight saving. The larger-caliber gun on the 91 kilogram was lighter than the old M256. For unification with the existing tank guns, XM291 was equipped with a detachable barrel, and the design of the breech part allowed replacing the 140-mm barrel with 120-mm with the corresponding technical and tactical consequences. Thus, the XM291 cannon, if necessary, could use both new powerful ammunition and old, available in sufficient quantities.

According to NATO standards, the ammunition for the guns was planned to be placed outside the fighting compartment, in the stern niche of the tower. The XM91 mechanism, created in the Bennett laboratory of the ground forces, had the ability to automatically select the desired projectile from the ammunition and feed it to the gun. For greater safety of the crew, the projectile and the shell were fed to the gun through a small sleeve in the armor wall between the fighting compartment and laying. At the same time during the ramming, the projectile was additionally covered with a metal curtain. During the tests, the automatic loader XM91 showed a good pace of work - it provided up to 12 rounds per minute. Up to 22 shots of 140 mm caliber or 32-33 shells and 120 caliber sleeves could be placed in the ammo pack, the size of which corresponded to the aft tower niche of the Abrams tank.

Tank gun caliber 140 millimeters


In addition to the gun, automatic loader and related equipment specifically for the ATAC complex, three variants of shots were created. All of them were completed with a single sleeve with the same charge of gunpowder. Structurally, the case with gunpowder was an enlarged sleeve for 120-mm guns. The range of ammunition for XM291 looked as follows:
- XM964. Subcaliber armor-piercing projectile;
- XM965. Cumulative fragmentation armor-piercing;
- XM966. Training equipment that simulates both versions of ammunition.

As of 2000, the ATAC gunnery complex has been tested. A little later, representatives of the US military department joined the development firms. However, the XM291 cannon still remains a purely experimental sample. When tested, some technical problems emerged, such as too much recoil energy. Apparently, the work on improving the cannon is still ongoing, but with much less intensity. The beginning of serial production was postponed several times, and at present there is no reason to expect the re-equipment of American tanks. Probably, in the near future, American armored vehicles will be equipped with 120 mm caliber guns, and the new 140-mm gun will remain an experiment. In any case, back in the mid-2000s, the financing of the ATAC project was greatly reduced.

United Kingdom

In 1989, Britain began two programs to develop advanced 140-mm guns. One of them was carried out by the Defense Research Agency (DRA), the other by the firm Royal Ordnance. It is noteworthy that in the early stages the second project was an initiative of the developer company and did not have government support. Regardless of the peculiarities of their beginning, both projects went at a good pace and in the early nineties, the first tests were conducted.

Both British-made 140-mm guns were somewhat similar. This was affected by the agreement on standard ammunition. However, there were noticeable differences. First of all, different designs recoil devices. According to reports, the DRA followed the path of increasing the degree of unification of the new weapon with the existing ones, and Royal Ordnance tried out a new system. The general scheme of the barrel, such as the presence of a heat shield, a purge system after the shot, the ability to quickly replace the barrel, etc., was the same for both guns. As far as is known, both British design organizations worked on their projects of automatic loaders, but they did not reach the tests.

In the 1992 and 1993, the DRA and Royal Ordnance 140-mm guns, respectively, were tested. Shooting was conducted with a standard APFSDS projectile. The total number of test shots exceeded two hundred. In the course of these tests, the advantages of the new tools became clear. First of all, there was an increase in armor penetration. 140-mm gun in the same conditions punched on 40% more armor than the available guns caliber 120 mm. Calculations showed that by changing the material of the armor-piercing projectile, it is possible to further increase its penetration qualities.

British advanced tank armament mounted on the Centurion chassis


However, during the tests, the alleged problems of the new guns were confirmed. Due to the increased energy of the powder gases, the recoil has increased significantly. This led to the fact that both British development companies were forced to admit the lack of effectiveness of recoil devices. It is worth noting that the recoil parameters of the guns made it possible to install them on promising tanks, designed with account of the new loads. However, the modernization of the existing technology was out of the question. The use of new tools on existing tanks threatened damage to the details of the design of both the tank itself and the gun.

The result of testing both guns was a large amount of information, as well as a recommendation to continue work on this topic, but taking into account the requirements regarding the installation of guns on existing tanks. DRA and Royal Ordnance did not have time to actively engage in updating projects. The fact is that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the British command lost interest in the new tank guns. The generals decided that in the near future there will definitely not be major tank battles and 140-mm guns are not needed. In turn, in the course of possible military conflicts, the existing 120 caliber tank guns of millimeters will suffice. Work on the British 140-mm guns first slowed down and then stopped.

Germany, project NPzK-140

Unlike the British, German designers from Rheinmetall immediately took into account the possibility of installing a new gun on existing Leopard 2 tanks. At the same time, almost immediately after the start of the development of the new cannon, called NPzK-140, it became clear that this would require completely reworking the turret of the tank. This need was due to both the calculated dimensions of the gun itself, and the placement of the newly designed automatic loader. However, the creation of the new tower was postponed indefinitely: in Rheinmetall it was decided that it was first necessary to finish all the work on the cannon and only then make the tower so that it would not have to constantly make adjustments to its design.



At the final design stage, the NPzK-140 gun was a typical tank weapon, differing from the others only in caliber. At the same time, several original solutions were applied to its design. For example, to ensure compatibility with the most convenient version of the automatic loader, the gun was equipped with a bolt with a vertically falling wedge. Also had to significantly rework the ejector gun and equip it with new recoil devices. The last task was one of the most difficult. Due to twice the energy of the powder charge of a standard shot, the recoil increased significantly. But the chassis of the tank "Leopard-2", which in the future could be equipped with a new gun, was not adapted to such loads. Nevertheless, Rinmetall's constructive feeds eventually managed to reduce the calculated return to acceptable values.



Despite certain successes in the design, the new NPzK-140 140 gun never went into the series. At the beginning of the two thousand years, a test stand was made and six copies of the gun itself. Tests of these guns went with varying success, but in the end the project was closed. NPzK-140 in the current state was considered inconvenient and unfinished. Not wanting to spend money on fine-tuning the new weapon, the German military chose to refuse the order. Some developments on this project, primarily of a technological nature, were later used to create the Rh-120 LLR L / 47 tool.

France

American, German and British projects tank guns caliber 140 millimeters were the most successful and reached the stage of testing. In the remaining state party to the agreement on the FTMA program - France - things went a little worse. For example, the French company GIAT Industries, experiencing a number of technical and technological problems, eventually abandoned the creation of its own tool. Nevertheless, she took an active part in other projects and helped British and German enterprises. In recent years, rumors have been circulating about the resumption of the French project, which now has old goals: to create a new weapon for promising European tanks. Despite the available developments, full-fledged news about this project is unlikely to appear in the near future.

Outside of NATO

At the same time with the USA, Great Britain, Germany and France, other countries that are not part of the North Atlantic Alliance became interested in the issue of increasing the caliber of tank guns. The motivation was exactly the same: the increase in caliber promised a big increase in basic combat qualities, and this advantage more than covered all the concerns about the high cost of development and construction or technical problems associated with high energy of the shot.

Switzerland

Interestingly, Swiss engineers from Swiss Ordnance Enterprise (SOE) began developing their 140-mm gun a bit earlier than the NATO countries. Apparently, Switzerland was counting only on its own strength and, seeing foreign advances in this direction, decided to start a similar project too. The construction of the Swiss cannon began in the mid eighties. It should be noted that when developing a new tank gun, it was considered not as a full-fledged armament for promising and modern tanks, but as an experimental model for determining the appearance of a gun and developing new technologies. Nevertheless, even with such views, the possibility of mounting a new gun on Pz 87 Leo tanks (licensed by Leopard 2 of Swiss production) was taken into account.



There is evidence that the basis for the new tank gun caliber 140 millimeters was taken gun Rheinmetall Rh-120, which was originally recruited tanks "Leopard-2". For this reason, the main features of the appearance of the new gun resemble the original Rh-120. At the same time, several solutions were applied to reduce returns. A few years before the foreign projects of similar guns, the Swiss designers not only equipped their gun with new anti-recoil devices, but also used a muzzle brake. The latter consisted of several rows of holes near the muzzle. According to some sources, the efficiency of the muzzle brake exceeded 60%. In addition, due to the location of its holes at some distance from the muzzle, a more efficient use of powder gases was provided, because after passing through the holes of the brake, the projectile continued to receive energy from the gases for some time.

For the new gun, it was planned to create several types of separate-sleeve ammunition, but the main one was the armor-piercing subcaliber, for use with which the propelling charge was optimized. About ten kilograms of gunpowder were placed in a combustible sleeve. In addition, about five kilograms were attached directly to the projectile. Thus, the propellant charge was divided into two parts in a separate-sleeve ammunition. It was assumed that in cumulative or fragmentation shots only the charge placed in the sleeve would be used. Swiss-made ammunition had a serious difference from the shots described in the agreement between the NATO countries. Their sleeves had a smaller length and a larger diameter. According to the official data of the company SOE, in the future, if necessary, it would be possible to change the design of the cannon chamber and the shape of the sleeves for unification with NATO shells.

All technical solutions aimed at reducing the recoil impulse ultimately led to the possibility of mounting a new 140-mm cannon on the Leopard-2 tank. However, first the tests were carried out on a special stand. The new Swiss gun fired the 1988 of the year for the first time in the summer. At the same time, all the necessary data were collected and some modifications of its design were carried out. By the autumn of next year, an experimental vehicle with an updated turret and a new 87-mm gun was assembled on the basis of the serial tank Pz 140 Leo. During the firing at the stand and as part of the tank’s armament, the new gun showed more than interesting results. For example, from a distance of a kilometer, a sub-caliber projectile designed for it was pierced to a meter (!) Of homogeneous armor.

Despite successful tests, the new gun did not go into the series. The reason for this end of the project was the high cost and complexity of the gun, as well as the lack of prerequisites for its launch. In the early nineties, all European countries, due to the collapse of the USSR, reduced defense spending and the purchase of new weapons. The Swiss project 140-mm tank gun added to the list of closed as superfluous and expensive work. According to reports, over the next years, prototypes of guns were used in various test programs, but it was emphasized that this is a purely experimental weapon and Switzerland does not intend to use it for military purposes.

Ukraine, the gun "Bagira"

In the second half of the nineties, a country joined the creation of promising 140-millimeter cannons, from which they were unlikely to expect such work. The Kiev design bureau "Artillery armament" has developed a tank gun of increased power 55L "Bagheera". It is argued that this weapon can be installed on any tank of the latest models of Soviet, Russian or Ukrainian production and significantly improves its fighting qualities.



Available technical information about Bagheera is limited to a few numbers. It is known that with a barrel length of seven meters (50 caliber), the 55L can accelerate a seven kilogram sabot to speeds of the order of 1850-1870 meters per second. The declared armor penetration is up to 450 millimeters at a meeting angle of 60 degrees. Shooting distance was not specified. From the official data of the Design Bureau Artillery Armament, it can be concluded that at least two types of shots were created for the Bagheera. Perhaps firing armor-piercing subcaliber or high-explosive fragmentation shots of separate-cartridge loading.



Any information about the 55L “Bagheera” testing is missing. From the photos on the official website of the developer organization, it is possible to draw a conclusion regarding the manufacture and installation of an experimental gun on a test bench. Information about the purchase of tools also missing. Probably, over the past years, “Bagheera” has not interested potential buyers.

Caliber and expediency

As we see, all projects of tank guns of new-caliber 140 millimeters are faced with the same problems. First of all, this is a super-efficient payoff, which could not be fully compensated with the use of old practices. Of course, in the practice of tank building, more serious calibers with corresponding returns were used, but all the new tools were intended to modernize the existing equipment, which was simply not calculated for such loads. Technical features of a larger-caliber gun entail a number of consequences, such as the need for more robust construction details of the entire tank, a more powerful engine, etc. Ultimately, all this affects the price of the finished tank.

The second controversial point of the 140-mm tank gun concept concerns its tactical features. On the one hand, such weapons have significantly higher armor penetration characteristics in comparison with the usual 120- and 125-mm guns. At the same time, it is not possible to fit the bulk combat with 140-millimeter shots into the dimensions of a modern tank. This will lead to a reduction in ammunition and the corresponding tactical consequences. Confronting the power of the gun and the number of portable shots is the subject of a separate dispute.

In general, 140 caliber tank guns of millimeters, like many other types of weapons, have both pros and cons. In the current conditions, when the development of tanks is not as intense as in previous decades, the use of new calibers looks like an unreasonable measure. It seems that the military of the leading countries will prefer to remain with sufficient and mastered 120 and 125 caliber millimeters, while more serious systems will remain a sign of self-propelled artillery installations.


On the materials of the sites:
http://army-guide.com/
http://globalsecurity.org/
http://defense-update.com/
http://btvt.narod.ru/
http://arrows.newmail.ru/
http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/
http://articles.janes.com/
http://rheinmetall-defence.com/
http://kbao.com.ua/
74 comments
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  1. avt
    +7
    14 February 2013 09: 44
    I agree with the author’s conclusion. It’s too early to switch to a new caliber, probably you can still work with ammunition. In the meantime, can work out 152mm in order to unify? Something like introducing 140 even for tanks is probably not rational in terms of cost-effectiveness.
    1. +9
      14 February 2013 10: 47
      avt,
      There is one subtlety with 152mm cannons. This is already a "nuclear" caliber, and the tank falls under certain restrictions as a possible carrier.
      In general, in one of the projects of promising machines, I saw a "package" of frontal armor necessary for countering 140 mm - about a METER of physical thickness ... Or less - but with a huge X-shaped engine as an additional "victim" of the Merkava-style.
      Impressed belay
    2. Passing
      +2
      14 February 2013 19: 36
      Quote: avt
      In the meantime, it can work out 152mm in order to unify

      The possibility of unification between howitzer and cannon shells somehow looks doubtful. For the former, the priority of the weight being thrown, and for the latter, the velocity of the projectile and muzzle energy. IMHO something averaged will lose to specialized systems.
      1. +2
        14 February 2013 19: 44
        Why? A modern howitzer differs from a cannon only in the variety of available trajectories. Less charge, more howitzer.
        1. Passing
          +1
          14 February 2013 20: 35
          The howitzer shell has a short projectile, while the anti-tank shells have a very long projectile, it goes very deep into the shell. If we make a single shell and shell in caliber 152 mm, then we will get a huge length of the shell, it will be very difficult to place it in the tank, and if we make a system with separate loading, then the sub-caliber shell will be obviously worse than a whole shell, because it will be limited in length, which happens to our tank shells of separate loading, which seriously lose to the western integral shells. Those. howitzer shell will be normal, and sub-caliber will be relatively weak, for a given caliber naturally.
          1. -1
            14 February 2013 20: 56
            Sorry, but are you aware that Russian tank shots have long been no longer unitary?
            1. Passing
              +1
              14 February 2013 21: 46
              Quote: Spade
              Sorry, but are you aware that Russian tank shots have long been no longer unitary?

              Did not understand your thought
              Quote: Passing by
              which happens to our separate shells
              1. bask
                +1
                14 February 2013 21: 59
                Quote: Passing by
                Sorry, but you are aware that the Russian tank shot

                All ammunition in the T90 S
              2. 0
                14 February 2013 22: 12
                You see, there will be no single sleeve. There will be single modular charges. And all the problems will be resolved.
                In addition, the howitzer ARS is, perhaps, more authentic than the subcaliber one. I'm not even talking about the old Krasnopolye, which was assembled from two parts, and then brought into the 2C19 barrel on belts - it was so long. The problem is long contrived.
                1. Passing
                  +2
                  14 February 2013 22: 22
                  Quote: Spade
                  The problem is long contrived.


                  Look at the envelope of the Kaolitsiya tower where 70 shells are located. Divide the ammunition load into two, estimate whether the ammunition storage for 35 shells will fit into the tank’s body, divide it into three, estimate it again ... in short, God forbid it will fit 20 shells, and if we take into account the larger overall size of the sub-caliber shells ....
                  1. +1
                    14 February 2013 22: 38
                    Firstly, this is just a layout.
                    Secondly, this is a model of a two-gun tower. With two sets of wheel chocks, with reinforced HV and GN mechanisms
                    Thirdly, do not forget that there is also an autonomous power supply unit in the tower.
                    Fourth, do not forget that the howitzer’s loading mechanism is different from that of the howitzer. The barrel is not displayed at the corners for loading, there is a fairly healthy coordinator lever. And in this version there are two such levers.
                    1. Passing
                      +1
                      14 February 2013 22: 46
                      Firstly, this is just a layout.
                      Second, the

                      So many arguments, and not one to the target)))
                      let's see the amount of ammunition:

                      Now try to push this volume into the tank body, dividing by two, by three ...
                      1. +2
                        14 February 2013 22: 52
                        Quote: Passing by
                        Now try to push this volume into the tank body, dividing by two, by three ...


                        How much is it here? How is the average tank 28 ready-to-pack?
                      2. 0
                        14 February 2013 23: 06
                        More like here:



                        60 shells.

                        The "Donar" offered by you is not quite suitable. There is EVERYTHING in the tower. And it can be trivially removed from the base and put on a reinforced concrete base. As a result, a large tower height, space is needed for the breech.
                        But no one says that the tank should be the same.
                      3. -1
                        14 February 2013 23: 11
                        Quote: Spade
                        60 shells

                        Leclerc interrupted 22 shells in the machine.
                        Quote: Spade
                        EVERYTHING is there in the tower

                        Well, this is purely for fun. And you can reduce the height of the spruce directly using a specially designed chassis rather than improvised materials. And save it from thinking that I propose a donar as a tank.
                      4. +1
                        14 February 2013 23: 18
                        There are many options. And I do not think that the dimensions of ammunition will be a huge problem.
                      5. -1
                        14 February 2013 22: 53
                        Based on this picture, are you going to figure out any volumes? By the way, this is an obvious fake. A howitzer with fully automatic loading cannot be shell loading, only modules.
            2. Passing
              +1
              14 February 2013 22: 07
              Caliber projectile, penetrator reaches almost to the bottom of the sleeve

              The howitzer shell, by eye, leading to one caliber, is one and a half times less than the sub-caliber.

              Now tell me how, for a separate projectile, to combine (geometrically, overall) a large volume (i.e. length) of a sleeve for a howitzer and a long, long core of a sub-projectile. In my opinion, you will have to make a long-long sleeve (that is, take the actually the largest howitzer sleeve) and a long-long penetrator with a pallet. Those. the total length, relative to the unitary version, will increase one and a half to two times. Given that in a caliber of 152 mm the length of the projectile + shell is already calculated in meters, an increase of one and a half times may simply be unacceptable, because the tank does not have such significant volumes, and if you add them, they need to be booked with additional tens of tons of protection.
              1. +1
                14 February 2013 22: 18
                Here's the Kitolov - the most howitzer shell of 122-mm caliber



                Its length is 1190 mm
                1. Passing
                  +1
                  14 February 2013 22: 40
                  Quote: Spade
                  Here is the "Kitolov"

                  I guess I indistinctly expressed my thought, I will try more clearly:
                  I’m not saying that it is impossible to create a long shell for separate loading, I’m saying that it’s extremely important to save ammunition dimensions for tank ammunition of 152 mm caliber. What is impossible for a universal gun-howitzer with separate loading. Because we can’t place the penetrator of the sub-caliber projectile inside the propellant charge.
                  1. 0
                    14 February 2013 22: 44
                    Quote: Passing by
                    Because we can’t place the penetrator of the sub-caliber projectile inside the propellant charge.

                    Is it really necessary?
                    1. Passing
                      0
                      14 February 2013 23: 14
                      Quote: Spade
                      Is it really necessary?

                      How much space does the howitzer of separate loading you saw. For a tank, this is unacceptable. Therefore, it is necessary to reduce the dimensions of the projectile + propellant charge. Those. either reduce the length of the separate sleeve (or a stack of modular propellant charges) and place the remaining powder around the penetrator, or make a unitary projectile with the penetrator buried in the powder. Those. we are forced to abandon the function of a full-fledged howitzer system, because there is simply no volume for its implementation in the tank. Those. a tank gun of course can have a high-explosive fragmentation shell, but it will be inferior to a full-fledged howitzer. Those. the universal tank system in the caliber of 152 mm does not work, you have to sacrifice something, or worsen howitzer functions, or reduce the ammunition to an unacceptable level.
                      PS ^ however, I agree that a high-explosive high-explosive shell can probably be unified with a howitzer shell, it’s just that the range of fire from a tank will be significantly lower.
                      1. +1
                        14 February 2013 23: 22
                        Quote: Passing by
                        .e. we are forced to abandon the function of a full howitzer system

                        And who suggested that? The tank generally has an elevation angle of up to 20 degrees. and certainly for BPS howitzer trajectories are generally meaningless
                        Quote: Passing by
                        Those. a tank gun of course can have a high-explosive fragmentation shell, but it will be inferior to a full-fledged howitzer

                        What? Besides the ability to hit the target from the top.
                      2. Passing
                        +1
                        14 February 2013 23: 43
                        Quote: Kars
                        And who suggested this?

                        I looked at the beginning of the dispute, you are right, I probably misunderstood the arguments of Comrade Lopatov.))) And I already agree that unification with high-explosive shells is probably possible.
                        Quote: Kars
                        What? Besides the ability to hit the target from the top.

                        Will yield in firing range. There is not enough space in the tank to accommodate 30-40 howitzer shells / modular charges for firing at max. range comparable to a howitzer.
                      3. +1
                        14 February 2013 23: 49
                        Why does a tank have a 30-km range?
                      4. Passing
                        +1
                        15 February 2013 00: 24
                        Quote: Spade
                        Why does a tank have a 30-km range?

                        I thought you were for combining a howitzer and a tank, and argued in that vein, and yes, such a range is not mandatory for a tank.
                      5. +1
                        15 February 2013 00: 27
                        I do not consider it necessary to install larger caliber guns on tanks. Old has not yet revealed all its possibilities.
                        Just ammunition dimensions are by no means a problem.
                      6. 0
                        14 February 2013 23: 56
                        Quote: Passing by
                        misunderstood the arguments of Comrade Lopatov

                        Well for mutual understanding.

                        Quote: Passing by
                        Will be inferior in firing range.

                        And again, the tank is far from firing. Even now, with a ballistic range of 10-13 km, sighting systems are not able to confidently hit a target. But 7-8 km just right.
                        Quote: Passing by
                        There is not enough space in the tank to accommodate 30-40 howitzer

                        B / c Abrams in the stern of the tower 34-35 I do not remember 120 mm unitars. An increase in diameter by 20-32 mm is not particularly fatal, while the length can not be particularly regulated. A horizontal automatic charge controller with a constant angle, minus the black Joe and a place for his comfortable Habitat. It’s quite possible that it fits. The power of the stabilizer servo drives is especially worrying, the self-propelled guns do not shoot on the move and the tower imbalance. But as the designers said, they get money for this.

                        And let's all the same forget that in the future it is possible to use liquid propellant --- this is a more realistic option than a railgun with a miniatom power plant.
                      7. Passing
                        +1
                        15 February 2013 01: 03
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well for mutual understanding.

                        With this, as always, the hardest thing)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        B / c Abrams in the stern of the tower 34-35 I do not remember 120 mm unitars. An increase in diameter by 20-32 mm is not particularly fatal

                        The difference in the circle area of ​​120mm and152mm is 1,6 times. Divide 36 shells in the Abrams tower by 1,6 and get 22 pieces. Not much. But, this is without a loader, and how much will be with it? IMHO, pieces 15.
                        Quote: Kars
                        while the length is especially not regulated

                        About the length, too, not all is well. 120mm shells are unitary, i.e. dramatically reduced length compared with a hypothetical separate shell of the same parameters. Those. for shells of separate loading, the length will increase significantly, and the recessed niche of the same abrams is already so long, what will happen if it is further increased by a meter?

                        And how to reserve this supposedly very, very long, reckless niche normally, not like Abrams has now? How many tens of tons will go into this? And how then to deal with the wild mass imbalance between the front and back of the tower?
                        Quote: Kars
                        And let's all the same forget that in the future it is possible to use liquid propellants

                        I agree that the LMV will save a lot of space, but so far there is not a single real tank gun on this principle. And not the fact that it will be. Perhaps they immediately jumped onto the railguns, but this is again a very distant prospect, 50 years.
                      8. 0
                        15 February 2013 01: 09
                        Quote: Passing by
                        36 shells in the tower abrams 1,6 get 22 pieces. Not much. But, this is without a loader, and how much will be with it? IMHO, pieces 15.

                        And where did you forget the reduction in cubic capacity when eliminating the loader?
                        And 22 is a lekler’s BC. The rest of the battlefield cannot be loaded and used.
                        Quote: Passing by
                        About the length, too, not all is well. 120mm shells are unitary, i.e. sharply reduced length compared with a hypothetical separate shell of the same parameters

                        Above, I quoted a photo of 140 mm BPS 30-40 cm longer.
                        Quote: Passing by
                        How many tens of tons will go into this?

                        Most likely nothing will come of changing the weight of the reservation, even a reduction is possible, since the height of the tower will decrease
                        Quote: Passing by
                        I agree that the iron-and-steel missiles will save a lot of space, but so far there is not a single real tank gun on this principle

                        Back in World War II they did kerosene. The truth is 45 mm
                      9. Passing
                        0
                        15 February 2013 01: 51
                        Quote: Kars
                        And where did you forget the reduction in cubic capacity when eliminating the loader?

                        Cubature is one thing, and specifically length is another. What is the difference, the loader pulls out shells or AZ works for him? The projectile still needs to be fully pulled out of the warhead before loading. You can’t save much in length.
                        Quote: Kars
                        And 22 is BC Leclerc

                        22 is a proportional decrease in 36 abrams shells with an increase in caliber to 152 mm, pure geometry.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Above, I quoted a photo of 140 mm BPS 30-40 cm longer.

                        140 is not 152, it will not be 30-40, but all 50. But you do not take into account the automatic loader itself, you need to make some structural elements for it, such as support beams for conveyors, torque transmission devices for their rotation, etc. Those. 50 cm more will be added. That’s an extra meter.
                        Quote: Kars
                        even a decrease is possible, as the height of the tower decreases

                        I don’t understand why it will decrease, like the loader was removed? But did the frontal projection area required for protection be reduced? The ammunition has remained the same area, doesn’t it already need to be protected?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Back in World War II they did kerosene. The truth is 45 mm

                        Did not know. But, obviously, she had some problems, if all this did not receive further development.
                      10. Passing
                        0
                        15 February 2013 01: 57
                        To the question of the required area of ​​frontal projection protection:

                        An ammunition depot occupies the entire cross section of the tower’s reserve volume, so the presence or absence of a loader changes little in terms of the tower’s armor protection area.
                      11. 0
                        15 February 2013 02: 04
                        Quote: Passing by
                        An ammunition depot occupies the entire cross section of the tower’s reserve volume, so the presence or absence of a loader changes little in terms of the tower’s armor protection area.

                        And what does the cross section have to do with it? When the overall height of the tower changes, and the side is long.
                        Neglecting that it is very sketchy drawn.
                        That's for the sake of Leclerc's interest.
                      12. 0
                        15 February 2013 02: 16
                        Quote: Passing by
                        22 is a proportional decrease in 36 abrams shells with an increase in caliber to 152 mm, pure geometry

                        Well, I don’t know what's with the geometry, but take roughly 6 shells in a row - 152 X6
                        = 912 mm + let the gap between the cells 50 mm = 600 armor thickness 150 (a maximum of 100 for a leopard) we get a tower width of 1540 mm 1.5 m

                        Well, 4 rows, we get 1040 -1100.

                        Already 24 at the ridiculous width of the tower.
                        Quote: Passing by
                        What is the difference, the loader pulls out shells or AZ works for him?

                        Imagine a huge difference. Tons The Soviet tanks won this, and the Japanese Type 90 with AZ and three crew members with approximately the same parameters from abrams is 10 tons lighter.
                        Quote: Passing by
                        That runs an extra meter

                        Even if it’s a meter, the side of the tower of the classic tank is not very heavy. This is not frontal armor parts.
                        Quote: Passing by
                        But did the frontal projection area required for protection be reduced?

                        The overall height of the tower, which was regulated so that it would be more convenient for the loader to work, is reduced.
                        Quote: Passing by
                        But, obviously, she had some problems, if all this did not receive further development

                        The funny thing is that there weren’t any particular problems, the work was closed by the former rocket launchers. It just turned out to be of no use to anyone. You could rive 45 simple VETs in thousands and they weren’t already used in tanks. An article on an alternative story is somewhere.
                      13. Passing
                        0
                        15 February 2013 13: 37
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, I don’t know what's with the geometry, but take roughly 6 shells in a row - 152

                        This howitzer shell has the same caliber as the caliber, and the shell of the tank sub-caliber projectile is more than two times the caliber, so your calculation is incorrect. If you make a sleeve like a howitzer, then the length of the projectile (i.e. the sleeve, modular propellant charges) will increase even more, i.e. add another 50-100 cm to the crazy niche, which in general doesn’t climb into any gates.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Imagine a huge difference. Tons The Soviet tanks won this, and the Japanese Type 90 with AZ and three crew members with approximately the same parameters from abrams is 10 tons lighter.

                        Our tanks have ammunition in the hull, so we don’t need a huge tower, hence the mass saving. About the Japanese tank partially agree. The tower has already become small, and I don’t particularly see a win in length, if the length is even less than that of the abrams, then not by much, i.e. by the weight of the armor it can be substantial, five tons can run up, but by the dimensions there is no particular saving, a maximum of half a meter was saved:

                      14. 0
                        15 February 2013 16: 27
                        Quote: Passing by
                        and the shell of a tank subcaliber projectile is more than two times the caliber,

                        No no more.
                        Quote: Passing by
                        If you make a sleeve like a howitzer, then the length of the projectile (i.e. the sleeve, modular propellant charges) will increase even more, i.e.

                        You’re starting to confuse something again. By the way, howitzer shells do not exist in nature. It’s all the difference that it is possible to take out powder charges in the sleeve. And the weight of the powder in the subcaliber shell can be even less than in the OFS, since the OFS weighs 45 kg and the BPS 12-15
                        Quote: Passing by
                        . add another 50-100 cm to the crazy niche, which in general doesn’t climb into any gates.

                        Pay attention to the first photo of this article on it is a tank with a 152 mm cannon and an automatic charging device that passed testing.

                        В
                        Quote: Passing by
                        Our tanks have ammunition in the hull

                        And with this Type 90 weighs 50 tons and M1A1 weighs 57 tons without uranium armor. South Korean K2 also weighs less than M1A1
                      15. 0
                        15 February 2013 19: 21
                        _______________________
                      16. anomalocaris
                        0
                        15 February 2013 22: 24
                        Quote: Kars
                        The funny thing is that there weren’t any particular problems, the work was closed by the former rocket launchers. It just turned out to be of no use to anyone. You could rive 45 simple VETs in thousands and they weren’t already used in tanks. An article on an alternative story is somewhere.

                        The funniest thing is that there are problems with LMW, and they are very serious. The most serious of them are the dosage and supply of guns to the chamber and very high combustion temperatures.
                      17. 0
                        15 February 2013 22: 31
                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        that there are problems with LMW, and very serious. The most serious of these are the dosage and delivery of guns into the chamber.

                        Did you read this in the reports on the latest experiments with guns on the iron ore base?
                        I'm certainly not an engineer in this industry, but if I am unmistakable in jet engines and internal combustion engines I somehow manage to blow and meter the fuel.

                        And compared with electromagnetic railguns, the LMW is still more promising.
                        But as we see in the field of tank weapons stagnation for 30 years.
                      18. anomalocaris
                        0
                        15 February 2013 23: 21
                        You slightly confuse the warm with the soft. An engine is an engine and it is incorrect to compare it with an artillery gun.
                        WMS is certainly a promising thing. But, as I have already written many times, there are a whole range of problems that cannot be solved at the present level of technology development and on existing materials. It turns out very expensive, unreliable and with a meager resource, but at least something more or less sane. And railguns, lasers, and some other things are from the field of near-science fiction.
                      19. 0
                        15 February 2013 23: 45
                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        warm with soft. An engine is an engine and it’s incorrect to compare it with an artillery gun

                        Both thermal combustion engines have a cylinder, fuel, and translational movement of the piston / projectile.
                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        until it can be solved at the current level of technology development and on existing materials

                        I see no differences from modern internal combustion engines --- the same nozzle and injection.
                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        It turns out very expensive, unreliable and with a meager resource, but at least something more or less sane.

                        Once you say get it, bring what is SPECIFIC and who has succeeded in the last 20 years, even if it is unsuitable for serial production.

                        The most primitive stuffing --- potato gun, which the townsfolk indulge in)))
                      20. anomalocaris
                        0
                        15 February 2013 23: 58
                        Quote: Kars
                        I see no differences from modern internal combustion engines --- the same nozzles and injection.

                        It’s very bad that you don’t see. But there is a difference, and very significant. This is primarily due to combustion modes.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Once you say get it, bring what is SPECIFIC and who has succeeded in the last 20 years, even if it is unsuitable for serial production.

                        http://btvt.narod.ru/1/zmv_pushki.htm
                        http://pentagonus.ru/publ/materialy_posvjashheny/1970_1990_gg/primenenie_zhidkik
                        h_metatelnykh_veshhestv_v_artillerijskikh_sistemakh / 120-1-0-1421
                        http://commi.narod.ru/txt/1993/1201.htm
                        This is so, at a glance. In general, Yandex issued 3000 links to the request "ZhMV".
                      21. 0
                        16 February 2013 00: 37
                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        This is primarily due to combustion modes

                        Which is much less than piston cycles in the engine.
                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        http://btvt.narod.ru/1/zmv_pushki.htm



                        Although the list of advantages mentioned above is large (and some of them still remain theoretical), there are a number of disadvantages of using LMFs. However, some benefits have not yet been fully confirmed. And many notable problems can be resolved over the next few years. At the very least, companies currently engaged in research in the field of iron and steel mining are seriously hoping for this.


                        The article is about 30 years old, I have a similar reprint in the Tank Encyclopedia 0t 1999
                        Although research and development programs have been underway for 10 years, there are indications that an efficient, reliable system will not be ready for production until at least 2000. For the West German army, this coincides with the introduction of the tank of the future - tentatively named tank "Leopard-3".

                        In West Germany, the Defense Ministry recently awarded R&D contracts with Rheinmetall and Diehl. At the first stage of work, these contracts were aimed at creating a device for a tank gun and conducting tests in early 1989. Rheinmetall is working on monergols and Diehl is developing a system with diergols. After being tested for practical suitability, one method will be selected for further work. Ultimately, if all goes well, the LMW cannon can be installed on the West German tank of the future.

                        MILITARY TECHNOLOGY, 1988, No. 7.




                        .
                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        http://pentagonus.ru/publ/materialy_posvjashheny/1970_1990_gg/primenenie_zhidkik

                        h_metatelnykh_veshhestv_v_artillerijskikh_sistemakh / 120-1-0-1421

                        Home »Articles» Materials devoted to »1970 - 1990

                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        This is so, at a glance. In general, Yandex issued 3000 links to the request "ZhMV".

                        Well Yandex can give a lot of things.
                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        very high combustion temperatures

                        It is claimed that the combustion temperature of, for example, a dirgol consisting of diluted H202 (hydrogen peroxide) and hydrocarbons is about 20% lower than the combustion temperature of a standard solid propellant charge



                        Therefore, I simply summarize ----- after the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the USSR, they simply scored this topic.
                      22. anomalocaris
                        0
                        16 February 2013 00: 59
                        Quote: Kars
                        Therefore, I simply summarize ----- after the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the USSR, they simply scored this topic.

                        Quite possibly, Nov would not have been so categorical in his judgments. There is another possibility - the problems are solved, but the results are deeply classified.
                      23. 0
                        16 February 2013 01: 44
                        Quote: anomalocaris
                        There is another possibility - the problems are solved, but the results are secret

                        Everything can be. But such an opportunity only plays into the hands of my reasoning about the next-generation tank. I express hope that, with proper funding and order from the military, our designers will be able to complete this task in a relatively short period.
                        It remains only that this customer would fill up.
                      24. +1
                        14 February 2013 23: 27
                        Of course I did. And from the inside. And at work. Still an artilleryman.

                        And why "this is unacceptable for a tank" - I don't know. Sorry, but the "scrap" itself will remain the same in size. The charging chamber, and therefore the powder charge, will increase. And along with this, the speed will increase.

                        Here is an Italian:



                        Shoots including the most that neither is 155-mm high-ballistic sub-caliber projectiles of the "Vulcano" complex. As much as 60 km. throws them.
                      25. Passing
                        +1
                        15 February 2013 01: 15
                        Quote: Spade
                        And why "this is unacceptable for a tank" - I don't know

                        Why? The answer is obvious - the mass of the tank.
                        Self-propelled guns PzH 2000 weighs 55 tons, bulletproof armor, and overall height of 3,4 meters. And ammunition 60pcs. 155 mm shells
                        The Leopard tank weighs 55 tons, has bulletproof armor, and a clearance of 2,8 m in height. And the ammunition is 42pcs. 120 mm shells.
                        How much will the PzH 2000 weigh if it is booked in Leopard class? 100 tons? Is this acceptable for a tank?
                  2. anomalocaris
                    0
                    15 February 2013 22: 14


                    Here is the fact that there is an additional charge around BOPS.
              2. bask
                +1
                14 February 2013 22: 21
                Quote: Passing by
                Caliber projectile, penetrator reaches almost the bottom of the sleeve

                To which bottom of the sleeve? Submunition shot of a 125 mm K tank gun .T-72B .2A46M, smoothbore gun / launcher.
                1. 0
                  14 February 2013 22: 26
                  You're wrong. This is cumulative. Look at the photo from BC that you posted. The first are OFs, the second are cumulative, the third are sub-caliber, the fourth are controlled.
                  1. bask
                    +1
                    14 February 2013 22: 59
                    Quote: Spade
                    Look at the photo from BC that you posted. The first - OF, the second - cumulative

                    I am getting a bit sparred on global topics .. Inattentively looked.
                2. Passing
                  +1
                  14 February 2013 22: 28
                  Quote: bask
                  To which bottom of the sleeve?

                  It’s actually a godfather, but it’s not the point, our sub-caliber shells are no longer, I’m talking about this - our sub-caliber shells are seriously inferior to the Western ones in armor penetration, about one and a half times. And precisely because of the limited penetrator length.
                  1. postman
                    +1
                    15 February 2013 01: 24
                    Quote: Passing by
                    our sub-caliber shells are seriously inferior to the western ones in armor penetration, about one and a half times. And precisely because of the limited penetrator length.

                    Not only if we consider not a "simple" homogeneous ..

                    simulation of penetrator interaction and dynamic protection.





                    Do we have?

                    Photos were with a virus!
                    1. Passing
                      0
                      15 February 2013 14: 02
                      Quote: Postman
                      Not only if we consider not a "simple" homogeneous

                      Well, actually, for homogeneous armor, they give data on armor penetration. And how it is with concrete armor of a particular tank, this is a terrible military secret.)))
                      1. postman
                        0
                        15 February 2013 17: 31
                        Quote: Passing by
                        Passing

                        Quote: Spade
                        Lopatov

                        Quote: Spade
                        Kars


                        prvt. give koment pliz (if you know)
                        the photo in the answer has passed (supposedly the virus was)
                        do we have this?
                        Fragmented Caliber Projectile (FAPDS) / T
                        efficiency for 120mm, 125mm?
                        High flight speed makes fragmented tracer shells with a caliber core (FAPDS-T) effective against low-flying targets such as combat helicopters. They are also convenient complete with tracer BOPS (APFSDS-T) for equipping combat vehicles.
                        Oerlikon currently produces calibers: 20x102 FAP; 27x145 FAPDS and 30x173 FAPDS-T.


                        Antiresno to me
                      2. postman
                        0
                        15 February 2013 17: 31
                        Quote: Passing by
                        Passing

                        Quote: Spade
                        Lopatov

                        Quote: Spade
                        Kars


                        prvt. give koment pliz (if you know)
                      3. postman
                        0
                        15 February 2013 17: 32
                        Quote: Passing by
                        Passing

                        Quote: Spade
                        Lopatov

                        Quote: Spade
                        Kars

                        THE FINAL
                        prvt. give koment pliz (if you know)
                      4. +1
                        15 February 2013 17: 56
                        Quote: Postman
                        if you know

                        I didn’t hear such weapons. I also don’t know the experienced ones. But I can’t say that I especially watched this.
                      5. +1
                        15 February 2013 22: 32
                        A good thing, isn't it.
                      6. 0
                        15 February 2013 22: 51
                        Well, certainly not bad. It would be nice to find out the price --- so that you wouldn’t be issued with a comment for a receipt, put the shoot in place.
                        As such, I did not understand the principle of action. It is especially why I did not break through the integral position 2, maybe the fuse is there.

                        So far, there is little information, but I'm not so good at shells without using analogies and examples.
                      7. 0
                        15 February 2013 23: 18
                        Price? High. I am not a special specialist in metalworking, but they are unlikely to grind crowbars on a lathe. In addition, there is a need for high accuracy in the characteristics of the material itself, so that on the one hand it breaks down, but on the other, it breaks through.

                        The principle is, in fact, it is an ordinary sub-caliber projectile, it also acts on an obstacle, but in the process, in the material itself it is destroyed due to weakened zones, and not a single crowbar, but its fragments fly out for the armor. With all the consequences. Now everyone is smart, they use a lining to hold back the secondary fragments.

                        The second did not penetrate because it is calibrated, and accordingly has less armor penetration. Seeing specifically the thickness and material of the armor was selected.
                      8. 0
                        15 February 2013 23: 29
                        Quote: Spade
                        The second did not break because it is a caliber

                        Both the one and the one are gauge. The second has a sub-caliber core, the structure of the segment under discussion is almost incomprehensible. Only some notches on the body.
                        I look closely at the OFS and the Armor-piercing-explosive campaign did not penetrate because they exploded.
                      9. 0
                        16 February 2013 00: 02
                        It is a sub-caliber.
                        FAPDS: Frangible Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot. The last two words are "throwing pallet".
                        Just in the photo above another shell, FAP: Frangible Armor Piercing





                        http://defense-update.com/products/digits/30mmAP.htm
                      10. 0
                        16 February 2013 00: 27
                        Quote: Spade
                        Precisely the caliber

                        Quote: Kars
                        .The second has a sub-caliber

                        Quote: Spade
                        The second did not break because it is a caliber

                        Will come to choose.

                        Explosive armor with a caliber Tracer (FAPDS-T) type is used as ----------- this is just the second, and which is not broken.
                      11. 0
                        16 February 2013 09: 45
                        I'm not talking about this photo, I'm talking about the one with the inscription "20 mm x 102 FAP"
                        There is a caliber with a defragmented core.

                        And the photograph with a comparison of armor penetration shows the sub-caliber FAPDS, the HEI-T caliber fragmentation incendiary tracer and the SAPHEI-T caliber semi-armor-piercing high-explosive incendiary

                        Why didn’t the latter break through the armor?

                        Modern weapons use high-explosive semi-armor-piercing (SAPHE) shells, which have less armor-piercing potential, but are much more effective. Modern SAPHE shells still have a ballistic cap, hardened body and fuse base, but usually have a rather thin main body and more explosive (4-15%). Common abbreviations for modern AP and SAP shells are: HEI (BF) , SAPHE, SAPHEI and SAPHEI-T.
                      12. postman
                        +1
                        16 February 2013 00: 45
                        Quote: Spade
                        Just in the photo above another shell, FAP: Frangible Armor Piercing

                        Frangible armor piercing







                      13. postman
                        +1
                        16 February 2013 00: 40
                        Quote: Kars
                        Still to know the price -

                        $473 per case
                        35mm Oerlikon KDB 35x228mm
                        56 IN THE CASSETTE, WEIGHT OF THE CASSETTE 154KG
                        Per round: 1.56 kg

                        REAL PRICE. / SPEAKER
                      14. +1
                        16 February 2013 01: 38
                        Quote: Postman
                        $ 473 per case

                        apiece? or for 56?

                        in principle, of course, not expensive ---- for the Air Force about the ground forces or the Armed Forces of Ukraine, then they do not shine for us.
                      15. postman
                        +1
                        16 February 2013 03: 18
                        Quote: Kars
                        $ 473 per case

                        per box. And how much is in the box = xs. then we'll figure it out.
                        but still cheap
                        56 in the cassette (in the system).
                        actually you should know. I'm still in this thread-NUB
                      16. 0
                        15 February 2013 22: 31
                        We don’t have that. At least in service.

                        The projectile in theory takes the best from the usual sub-caliber - high armor penetration, and from the caliber armor-piercing explosive - powerful blocking action. I do not think that these fragments will be stopped by a lining.
    3. 0
      14 February 2013 23: 51
      I believe that work in this area should be continued, one case in Chechnya, a sniper in five stages, you can get it, but not so easily and quickly, because the soldiers suggested that they fit the tank and shoot on the first floor until it collapses together with the sniper, I do not want to literally say that this requires a 140 mm gun, but in war there are many situations where you need to shoot to cover once.
  2. Alikovo
    +1
    14 February 2013 10: 03
    140 mm is better to install on the armature.
  3. 0
    14 February 2013 10: 14
    And in Israel, meanwhile, are developing new weapons.
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2013/02/5-2020.html
    Here again the struggle began between the manufacturers of guns and armor. smile
  4. +7
    14 February 2013 10: 22
    For 152mm guns, no caliber and shaped-charge shells are needed. An 45 kilogram shell fired at a speed of 950m / s is guaranteed to demolish the Abrams tower at a range of 2km. And at a greater range at least leads to shell concussion. Something like this wink
    The armor does not always need to be pierced, although it is difficult to get it. Stereotypes interfere
    1. Avenger
      0
      14 February 2013 18: 09
      Quote: qwert
      A 45 kilogram shell fired at a speed of 950 m / s is guaranteed to demolish the Abrams tower at a distance of 2 km.

      What is your conclusion based on? were there any precedents? And then, what will be the speed of the NOT sub-projectile at a distance of 2 km, if the initial - 950 m / s?
      1. malkor
        +3
        14 February 2013 23: 03
        high-explosive fragmentation shell of caliber 152 without falling into the abrams tank and falling a meter away from it is guaranteed to turn the tank over
        and it was already with tigers during the Second World War, the mass difference of tiger-abrams is 5 tons, we were given examples of similar cases
        I do not always need to pierce the armor I agree!
      2. Kommunisten
        +2
        15 February 2013 00: 37
        Maybe he won’t demolish the tower, but once even in the most armored part — the forehead of the tower — he will carry the cannon, sights, and bend the fragments, possibly the shell crew. It will fall into the NLD - it will blow the gusli, and it will shock at least the driver. In general, wherever you go - a guaranteed incapacitation of the tank, but for this you need a decent suitcase of course)
        And if abrasha falls into the VLD, from which a rebound occurs under the tower, then this is the end, because most likely it will break the tower’s shoulder strap / cardboard cover over the mechanical drive.
  5. borisst64
    +7
    14 February 2013 10: 24
    To understand the problem of installing a larger caliber gun in a tank tower, you need to see the size of the ammunition with your own eyes.
    1. bask
      +2
      14 February 2013 13: 32
      Quote: borisst64
      libra, you need to see the size of the ammunition

      In Germany, in the years 70-80, the Leopard 3 tank was developed, with a mass of 38 tons and two cannons. With 105 rifled guns L-7. Subsequently, with two 120 mm Rh-120 mm. In the late 80s, all work on this topic was curtailed.
      .Leopard type platform ,, 3 With one 155 mm cannon .. Could serve as a model for an assault gun.
      1. bask
        +2
        14 February 2013 13: 37
        The base for the tank was the VBT-70 chassis with hydropneumatic suspension.
        1. postman
          +1
          14 February 2013 17: 46
          Quote: bask
          In Germany, in the years 70-80, the tank Leopard was developed. 3

          It's strange. I always thought it was "Experienced tank VT1-2 (photo below) / in Koblenz

          and his "little brother" on the "Experienced Tank VT1-1"


          Leo 3 is this one:
          1. +1
            14 February 2013 17: 48
            "Leopard-3" is the unofficial nickname for several cars. It's just that each new project was expected to replace Leopard-2, hence the confusion.
            1. postman
              +1
              14 February 2013 18: 19
              Quote: Glenn Witcher
              "Leopard-3" is the unofficial nickname for several cars.

              These are all bloggers.
              It is better to contact here:

              or here:
              1. bask
                +1
                14 February 2013 19: 11
                [img] unofficially called Leopard 3. The development of this unusual reckless tank, armed with two guns, was led by the engineer of the company MaK Wolfgang Matos. Tests of two prototypes of the VT1 tank (Versu-chstrager 1) began in 1972. Two 1mm rifled L1 guns were installed on the first VT105-7 machine, and two 1mm Rh-2 smoothbore guns on the second VT120-120. The guns are stationary in the horizontal plane, the axis of the barrel channels intersect at a distance of 1500 m. The chassis of the Leopard-3 tank was designed on the basis of the chassis of the MVT-70 tank with hydropneumatic suspension, but instead of six road wheels, five were installed on board. Forced installation with 1500 liters. with. up to 2000 liters with. with the MV873Ka-500 diesel engine with a tank mass of 38 tons, it was possible to obtain a very high specific power of 52/5 liters. s / t It should be noted that both prototypes were made of ordinary, rather than armored, steel. On the VT1-1 tank, automatic loading mechanisms were installed on both guns, while on VT1-2 one gun was serviced manually, and on the other there was an automatic loading system. The VT1-2 engine was boosted to a power of 2200 liters. with. Places commander and gunner were located to the left of the axis of the tank; both have periscope sights PERI R12 from Zeiss. Tests of tanks continued for several years. In their course, the practical impossibility of aiming fire on the fly became clear, since a shot from one gun led to the tank leaving the track and the tank, thus, moved in zigzag firing. The accuracy of the firing from the spot was higher than that of the turret tanks, so a standard NATO target of 2,3 x 2,3 m was hit from the first shot with a 90% probability. The Leopard-3 tank development program was discontinued in 1976, but was reanimated in the early 80s in connection with the development of the Tank-90 concept. Currently, all work under this concept has been curtailed, since the stake has been placed on the further development of the design of the Leopard 2 tank. It is worth noting that a number of leading figures in German tank construction in the mid-80s, on the one hand, considered Leopard 2 the best in the world, and on the other, did not see any reserves for improvement in its design, which is why they turned to the rejected project reckless tank "Leopard 3". [/ Img]
              2. +1
                14 February 2013 22: 27
                Late. They already liked this name. wink
            2. bask
              +1
              14 February 2013 19: 06
              [media = http: //all-tanks.ru/content/opytnyi-osnovnoi-boevoi-tank-leopard-3]
              VT-1-1 has 5 track rollers on board .. ,, Leopard ,, - 3, 6 on board. Look carefully. VT 1-1 Development of the 70s .. ,, Lepard ,, - 3 attempt to revive a project in the 80s
              1. postman
                0
                14 February 2013 22: 22
                Quote: bask
                Watch attentively.

                look carefully here:
                1958-1998 40 Jahre Kampfpanzer fuer die Bundeswehr Soldat und Technik 1998,
                engineer Rolf Hilmes. He is the Head of the Land Weapons Division at the German Federal Academy of Military Education and Training (BAk WVT) in Manheim. Stock captain since 1967.

                Quote: bask
                Leopard ,, - 3, 6 on board.

                7m HAD to have
                1. postman
                  0
                  14 February 2013 22: 23
                  Here briefly about VTS, here yes 6t (like Leo)
                  1. bask
                    +1
                    14 February 2013 23: 15

                    KMV demonstrates Leopard 2A7 + and begins development of Leoprd-3 // .. The Germans themselves are confused in the names.
                    1. postman
                      +1
                      14 February 2013 23: 30
                      Quote: bask
                      And begins the development of Leoprd-3 /

                      not Germans not talkers Americans. they have this (you won’t get info)
                      about leo3 I already wrote / showed


                      Panzerkampfwagen
                      LEOPARD III

                      Daimler-benz-entwicklung
                      1985-1990
                      Gefechtsgewicht: 96 to
                      Bewaffnung: 140mm KwK
                      25mm MK
                      max Panzerung:
                      Neukonstruktion aus extremer
                      Schott.- und Aktivpanzerung
                      Motor: V12 MTU
                      Displacement: 72,6 liter
                      Power: 2000 KW
                      LeistungsGew .: 20,83KW / to
                      Vmax: 75 km / h
                      Besatzung: 4 Mann




                      Kampfwagenentwurf der Daimler-Benz-Wehrtechnik von 1989.
                      Prototypenbau 1991 eingestellt, einzelne Komponenten waren aber bereits sehr weit entwickelt.


                      Quote: bask
                      .Germans themselves are confused in the names.

                      The Germans are definitely not, the Internet "community" - yes ...
          2. bask
            0
            14 February 2013 18: 44
            Quote: Postman
            early. I always thought it was "Experienced tank VT1-2 (photo below) / in Koblenz

            [media=крайне%20оригинальной%20конструкции,%20неофициально%20называвшейся%20«Лео
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            зом,%20двигался%20при%20стрельбе%20зигзагом.%20Точность%20стрельбы%20с%20места%2
            0была%20выше,%20чем%20у%20башенных%20танков,%20так%20стандартная%20мишень%20НАТО
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            елана%20на%20дальнейшее%20развитие%20конструкции%20танка%20«Леопард-2».%20Уместн
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            0середине%2080-х%20годов,%20с%20одной%20стороны,%20считали%20«Леопард-2»%20лучши
            м%20в%20мире,%20а%20с%20другой%20–%20не%20видели%20в%20его%20конструкции%20никак
            их%20резервов%20для%20совершенствования,%20почему%20и%20обратились%20к%20отвергн
            утому%20проекту%20безбашенного%20танка%20«Леопард-3».]
      2. Avenger
        +2
        14 February 2013 18: 14
        Quote: bask
        In Germany, in the years 70-80, the Leopard 3 tank was developed, with a mass of 38 tons and two cannons. With 105 rifled guns L-7. Later with two 120 mm Rh-120 mm

        Wow! The gloomy German genius also gave birth to fantastic "masterpieces" in the second half of the twentieth century! laughing
        1. postman
          +2
          14 February 2013 22: 30
          Quote: Avenger
          The gloomy German genius in the second half of the twentieth century gave birth

          these masterpieces were born earlier and in foggy British genius
          1. bask
            +2
            14 February 2013 23: 21
            Quote: Postman
            these masterpieces were born earlier and in foggy British genius

            THREE TANKISTS AFRICAN. AND MORE WITH RUSSIAN HARMONIC WHO WHO WILL WIN. laughing
            1. +3
              14 February 2013 23: 25
              Do not be surprised if they have helmets cygeic)
              1. Alex 241
                +4
                14 February 2013 23: 34
                Lesh in Africa is the first thing laughing
                1. +2
                  14 February 2013 23: 45
                  Yes, I remembered a documentary about the T-34. A party of thirty-fours was sent to Angola, and our instructor told him. He himself saw them live, only on a pedestal in a tank school. But they mastered them quickly. So winter helmets came in the kit))))
                  1. Alex 241
                    +3
                    14 February 2013 23: 49
                    Here Lesh, I’ll look for the film now.
                  2. postman
                    +1
                    15 February 2013 00: 19
                    Quote: Thunderbolt
                    So the kit included winter headset))))

                    and then the pants are quilted pants? and sweatshirts?
                    Really on shipment?
                    1. +1
                      15 February 2013 00: 43
                      postman, here is the video, in the middle it "slips" what the soldiers wore. True, Cuba, but it's also hot .....)))
                      http://uitv.ru/news/society/2010/08/25/8150/
                      1. postman
                        +1
                        15 February 2013 01: 04
                        Quote: Thunderbolt
                        what did the soldiers go about.

                        I know the Cubans told.
                        correspondent down:
                        "... The missile guidance system that the soldiers (note my:CA) should have defended in the event of an attack from the USSR.. "
                      2. +3
                        15 February 2013 01: 17
                        WELL what ....... probably, after our Y. strike (although he was always returning), according to the plans of the Pentagon in the gulf of pigs, the advanced parts of the ammor infantry landed in order to disable the guidance system, and ours planned to defend themselves from these irradiated zombies to cover the USA with a second wave of missiles. How is the version? Although I myself am inclined to yours that Down, or rather a woman (blonde) laughing
                      3. Nechai
                        +1
                        15 February 2013 04: 24
                        Such r / beacons for MS ICBMs were not only in Cuba, but also in embassies and missions and other places, the most unexpected, in Mexico and Canada. So the task of covering up this system is just one of ..., for this, by the way, officially training brigade. In her platoon were captains, in a platoon of 10 tanks ... so it went on the papers. There was a triple cologne at a special price in Voentorg; it was understood by soldiers on Hurray !. No, don't drink! What do you! For a fanfur of this miracle of union perfumery, a fighter ALWAYS could amicably agree with a mulatto, with a black woman. And this is a present, not a payment. If she later will be engaged in the resale of this deficit, then she will quickly go to work on several years of cable production for years, naturally for free ...
                        Cuba was seen as a very possible ONE from the areas of concentration before landing on the North American Continent, after a showdown in Europe.
                        You know, I was most impressed by the footage of the Cuban Anti-Airborne Defense forces of the local self-defense units! Imagine a beach, palm trees, a sea bay. In the distance, the shnyavs approach the shore. The PATSANOV team from palm trees to the water's edge and a little further into the water is laying out boardwalk. Another team of Timurovites on a self-made trolley quickly rolls an aircraft torpedo with additional floats into the water from under the palm trees. Naturally connecting the cumulator to it through a button. Roughly directing the torpedo in the water towards the "landing" means of the aggressor, launches it. And come godfather to bathe ... Cubans, Vietnamese and Germans of the GDR, these were real Allies and WARRIORS!
                        When they entered Czechoslovakia in the 68th, those Czechs, like ours today, tried to stop the military columns by blocking the routes with women's and children's chains. We quickly found a way out. Each column was attached to a German BRDM with a matyugalnik. Resting against such a lively barricade, the German political commander issued a standard short phrase: "Akhtung! Akhtung! This is a German column, if you don’t disperse in a minute, then the NEXT TURN will be on you! And there was a line from KPVT over the heads of the demons ... There was ALWAYS enough, the road was unblocked ...
                  3. Nechai
                    +2
                    15 February 2013 03: 40
                    More truly - AND WINTER headsets ALSO. For it was supposed to be - summer and winter sets. Moreover, if the tank had an external outlet, for inclusion in TPU, then another plus, respectively, one more helmet of both types. Disclose before the installers of the ZIP area the destination of the equipment, NO ONE HAS GOED TO!
                    But our T-34s rusted in equatorial Africa very quickly. 1,5-2 months after arrival and he is RED!
                    1. Alex 241
                      +3
                      15 February 2013 03: 45
                      .................................................. ............................
                      1. +2
                        15 February 2013 04: 05
                        Hi Sasha hi How much did he stand there?
            2. 0
              26 March 2013 12: 33
              It’s a pity that only the Chinese tank ...
        2. bask
          +1
          14 February 2013 23: 28

          Who said that the Russians thought up on armor. 1-st World soldier
          1. +2
            14 February 2013 23: 34
            bask,
            opposite such a "box" there is always a good mortar)
            1. 0
              15 February 2013 23: 56
              Mine Goth! Is it really not a photoshop ??
  6. USNik
    +2
    14 February 2013 12: 26
    And where the Jews Israeli merkava? But they were going to stuff a 140 mm gun there, especially for urban battles, so that they could demolish a building from a hit? The dimensions of the tower and the weight of the car allow this.
    1. bask
      +1
      14 February 2013 13: 10
      Quote: USNik
      Where are the Jews of Israel Merkava? They are
      I want to thank Cyril for as always a BRILLIANT ARTICLE.
      Do not worry, the USNik. Will be, but later. 140 mm for the MBT the gauge is excessive.
      1. The installation of a 140mm gun will entail an increase in the mass of the tower, with an increase in the mass of the whole MBT.
      2. The number of BC in the tank will decrease, the time spent in battle will decrease. To replenish the BC.
      3. It is more expedient to install guns with a caliber of 140 mm and 152 mm on assault guns for directly supporting MBT in battle. An assault gun should have the same anti-ballistic reservation. Like MBT ..
      In 1947, the amers undertook to install a 155mm gun on the .T-30..70 ton tank.
      1. +7
        14 February 2013 14: 55
        The IS-7 is cooler than the coolest!
        1. bask
          +1
          14 February 2013 16: 28
          Quote: Be proud.
          C-7 is cooler than the coolest

          The IS-7, the tank in many ways ahead of its time. Like. ,, Object ,, 279 Developed in the USSR in 1957. Armament 130-mm gun M-65 semi-automatic loading mechanism. With mechanized BK ... TPS-2S semi-automatic guidance system. Ammunition 24 rounds. Ammunition volume 11,47-M / 3. Using classic schemes in the design of tanks. With a caliber of more than 125 mm., will only increase the mass of the tank. Non-standard solutions are needed.
          1. bask
            +2
            14 February 2013 16: 35
            Diesel DG-100 with a power of 950 l / s or 2 DG-8M with a power of 1000 l / s. "Crew of 3 people. Commander, gunner and loader.
            The project was closed in 1959. One sample was made.
          2. +1
            14 February 2013 16: 36
            Quote: bask
            With a caliber of more than 125 mm., It will only increase the mass of the tank. Non-standard solutions are needed.


            Really? A Merkava with a 120 mm gun weighs more than an IS-7 with a 130 mm gun - what's next?

            At the same time, do not forget that maybe you should already switch to binary liquid propellants.

            But as the earth rumors of polnitsa on the armature of the usual 125 mm with a surplus index of 7 or 8 (T-90MS index 6)
            1. bask
              +1
              14 February 2013 17: 12
              Quote: Kars
              At the same time, do not forget that maybe you should already switch to binary liquid propellants.

              I agree . Modern gunpowder and explosive substances have reached their peak. Explosives based on metals, binary liquid propellants. Guns based on new physical principles. Electromagnetic railgun gun.

              The future lies with new technologies. A simple increase in the caliber of weapons on MBT will not work. This was already trying to do in the 50s - 60s and 70s - 80s
              1. +1
                14 February 2013 17: 15
                Quote: bask
                . Electromagnetic railgun gun

                This will not happen in the tank for the next 50 years.
                And an increase in caliber is not so much armor penetration as the weight of explosives in the projectile.
                Zhitkoy MV will also make it possible to adjust the initial velocity of the projectile, increase safety and also allow not to reduce the ammunition, and maybe even increase while simplifying the loading mechanism.
                1. bask
                  0
                  14 February 2013 17: 36
                  Quote: Kars
                  Zhitkoy MV will also make it possible to adjust the initial velocity of the projectile, increase safety and also allow not to reduce the ammunition, and maybe even increase while simplifying the loading mechanism.

                  A simple increase in explosives with increasing caliber. They also come across a limit. The use of liquid and powder chemicals in ammunition with a volume-detanating mixture. Sharply increases the explosive strength of explosives.
                  [media=между%20диспергирующим%20и%20инициирующим%20зарядами%20установлен%20узел%
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                  о%20тела%20вращения,%20обращенного%20вершиной%20конуса%20в%20сторону%20диспергир
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                  eat% 20 charges.]
                2. bask
                  0
                  14 February 2013 17: 42
                  Quote: Kars
                  And increasing the caliber is not so much armor penetration as the weight of explosives in the projectile. A lively MV will also make it possible to adjust the initial velocity of the projectile, increase safety and also help not to reduce

                  Only a simple increase in explosives. This is an endless increase in caliber. The use of ammunition with a volume-determining mixture of liquid and powder dramatically increases the power of explosives.
                  1. +1
                    14 February 2013 18: 08
                    Quote: bask
                    The use of ammunition with a volumetric mixture of liquid and powder dramatically increases the power of explosives and imagine the same methods in a 152 mm shell.

                    Of course, it will not increase much in the volume of 125 mm shells. And it’s interesting how the voluminous ammunition will explode when buried in a warp. The fragmentation effect is also interesting.
                    Quote: bask
                    Only a simple increase in explosives. This is an infinite increase in caliber.

                    152 mm was quite common in tanks and assault vehicles of the second world.
                    1. +1
                      14 February 2013 18: 17
                      And while the potchtalion did not begin to answer the express of doubt about the prospects of EFA for small and medium caliber barrel artillery, I have suspicions that due to the load on the wall of the projectile there will be considerable thickness, which will complicate the process of undermining the shell for spraying the mixture, as well because of the high spray speeds the model can not a cloud, but a long pipe with a low concentration.
                      1. bask
                        0
                        14 February 2013 19: 53
                        Quote: Kars

                        And what? Not saying already that the caliber of 152 mm is a pre-conventional designation.

                        I agree. But the very fact that in Russia and then in the USSR. The basis of the divisional guns was taken precisely, the French caliber, 152 mm. Because the warehouses are still from the times of World War I. They were filled with shells of this caliber. 1 on basis of this caliber created. howitzers ML-37 ML-15 .. But so on.
                      2. 0
                        14 February 2013 20: 13
                        Quote: bask
                        37 based on this caliber created

                        Most likely, just unification. Ammunition was made and new types.
                        everything fits almost standardly into inch standards like machines, drills, and accessories.
                      3. bask
                        0
                        14 February 2013 20: 22
                        Quote: Kars
                        approximately standardly fits into inch standards as well as machine tools, drills, equipment.

                        The main thing. The technology in the manufacture of trunks. Yes, and just, a habit, to the old proven caliber ..
                        z-inch: 76 mm. Three-ruler 7,62 .. Since the time of imperial Russia, more than one caliber in the USSR has not changed ..
                    2. bask
                      0
                      14 February 2013 19: 35
                      Quote: Kars
                      2 mm was quite common in tanks and assault vehicles of the second world

                      152 mm. ,, French ,, caliber. Came to Russia with a gun developed by Schreider. Specially for the Russian army
                      [img] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:152mm_m10_schneider_polevaja_1.jpg?u
                      selang = en [/ img]
                      .

                      Quote: Kars
                      2 mm was quite common in tanks and assault vehicles of the second world.

                      Caliber 152,4 mm. Was developed by the French company Schreider specifically for Russia in 1910. Howitzer model 1910/34.
                      .
                      1. 0
                        14 February 2013 19: 36
                        Quote: bask
                        152 mm

                        And what? Not saying already that the caliber of 152 mm is a pre-conventional designation.
                        And it does not correspond to a millimeter. As a 9 mm PM, the actual caliber of which is 9.2.

                        I can simply say 6 inches. Caliber from 149. with something from the British, 15 cm from the Germans, we have 152 mm
                      2. bask
                        +1
                        14 February 2013 19: 41
                        Quote: Kars

                        I can simply say 6 inches. Caliber from 149. with something from the British, 15 cm from the Germans, we have 152

                        The 152.4-mm caliber came to Russia together with a French gun specially designed by the French company Sehriden in 1910, a howitzer of the 1910/34 model.
                      3. +1
                        14 February 2013 19: 57
                        I still don’t understand what it is for? I can add that the cooperation with the Schneider was mainly due to the corruption component that included some prince and ball Yarina Kshesinskaya.
                      4. GHG
                        GHG
                        0
                        15 February 2013 13: 35
                        A little bit wrong ... the gun is French but the Kane system.
                        At the beginning of 1891, in France, the Russian delegation was shown firing from 120-mm / 45 and 152-mm / 45 cannons of the Canet system. Shooting from them was carried out by unitary cartridges, and the French managed to get a huge rate of fire - 12 rounds / min - from 120 mm guns and 10 rounds / min from 152 mm.

                        The manager of the Ministry of the Sea decided to limit himself to purchasing drawings from Kane, without ordering samples of guns. On August 10, 1891, an agreement was signed with Forges et Chantiers de la Mediterranes, according to which Canet presented drawings of their machines, shells, shells and tubes (fuses).
                      5. anomalocaris
                        0
                        15 February 2013 22: 57
                        You are very much mistaken. The 6-inch caliber was adopted for the guns of the 1867 model. After the development of the system in 1877, guns with a caliber of 6 dm were also created. It happened in the 80s of the 19th century.
                        Both gun systems were created by the joint efforts of our GAU and the German company Krupp.
                      6. Fox
                        +1
                        14 February 2013 21: 38
                        Quote: Kars
                        Like 9 mm PM, the actual caliber is 9.2.

                        AK 74 real caliber 5,4
              2. Kommunisten
                +1
                15 February 2013 00: 47
                Yeah, put the railgun on the tank, and at the same time a mini-nuclear reactor, to ensure its operation laughing
    2. +3
      14 February 2013 21: 06
      I will make a reservation right away that I myself have never seen a "carrot" with a 140 mm gun, but information about the development of such a model in Israel passed. But besides the possibility, the need is also needed. Any rearmament requires enormous costs, and even the artillery rearmament of armored vehicles, even more so. Today, Israel has no need for a 140mm gun. Firstly, the latest developments of 120 mm ammunition, both against infantry, including those in shelter and against armored vehicles, have given excellent results, and secondly, the army is in the process of saturating with heavy ATGMs with a range of 8 to 25 km. In general, all design bureaus work for the future, otherwise what do they get their salaries for?
      1. Kommunisten
        0
        15 February 2013 00: 52
        And where are you going to shoot from the ATGM at 8-25km? From Olympus? Or from Elbrus?
        1. 0
          15 February 2013 01: 28
          Kommunisten
          In Israel, Colombia, South Korea, etc. Those. Where heavy modifications of "Spike" were sold.
          They work both on UAV guidance, and on the ground gunner’s control. I won’t tell you for 25 km, Maglan uses them with us, but on 7 km I myself saw shooting at a target (old tank).
  7. ka5280
    +1
    14 February 2013 12: 49
    I think that 125mm ammunition needs to be improved. let's say a T72b1 with ammunition capable of killing an "abrashka" from 2 km away, this is much better than fencing a garden with 140 mm guns.
    1. Avenger711
      0
      14 February 2013 16: 15
      Is being done. But there is a limit.
  8. 0
    14 February 2013 13: 15
    The caliber race begins after entering the arena of Almaty. If it turns out to be something breakthrough then new weapons and / or ammunition are called for. At this stage, everything is quite balanced. The Americans even do not put the L55 gun on Abrasha like the German leopard 2A7 suits them all.
    1. +2
      14 February 2013 15: 31
      I agree, 140 mm can be safely placed in an uninhabited tower.
    2. postman
      +2
      14 February 2013 17: 34
      Quote: Kars
      The caliber race begins after entering the arena of Almaty.

      And what is 140 supposed?
      In my opinion, there is enough, otherwise everything will turn into monsters (roads, bridges, envelope? + Ammunition logistics)
      DM53 120mm KE Shell (Rheinmetall)
      21.4kg / 8.35kg Length is 745mm, and speed is 1750 m / s (L55) and 1670 m / s. (L44).



      Ftmga
      (and nothing needs to be "redone")
      1. 0
        14 February 2013 17: 44
        Quote: Postman
        roads, bridges, size? + ammunition logistics

        Like 152 mm self-propelled guns cope. Merkava 70 tons, Abrashi with Leopards under 65 tons.
        The same stronghold with 140 mm and iron ore can reach up to 60 tons.

        What kind of concept in the picture and FTMGA did not understand.
        and another trend of the 60-80s that the best anti-tank weapon is that the tank is no longer relevant.
        1. postman
          +2
          14 February 2013 18: 15
          Quote: Kars
          .Merkava 70 tons, Abrashi with Leopards under 65 tons.

          add the difference m / y 140 mm and 120 mm, and + the difference in weight bp = get ???
          it is only at ATAC 90kg (and it’s clear why)

          Quote: Kars
          The same stronghold with 140 mm and iron ore can reach up to 60 tons.

          compared. our full weight still have stock and stock (you know why the same)

          FTMGA - Future Tank Main Gun Ammunition
          to replace the M829E4 and FULLY UNIFIED with the Abrams gun and all the moorings ..
          For fun: contractor performer in ST. PETERSBURG !!!!
          ..
          ...
          ...
          True in Florida, American St. Petersburg. wink
          General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical
          Systems (St. Petersburg, FL)
          Alliant Techsystems (Plymouth, MN)

          NOTE on FY12 all work is completed.
          1. -1
            14 February 2013 18: 24
            Quote: Postman
            compared. our full weight still have stock and stock (you know why the same)

            So I’m primarily concerned about ours.
            Quote: Postman
            add the difference m / y 140 mm and 120 mm, and + the difference in weight bp = get ???

            Okay, the gun with the breech let even 2 tons of ammunition twice as heavy.
            But the vet can be re-arranged the tower, so that it charges and the armored volume that it occupies, by the way, this can lower the tank’s height on the roof of the tower. Let them puff and think.
            Quote: Postman
            NOTE on FY12 all work is completed

            I thought it was a projectile with an increased volume of explosives and remote detonation.
            1. +1
              14 February 2013 18: 45
              Under a large caliber, it is easier to make promising hypersonic PTRs. And they are already caliber shells ahead of speed.
            2. postman
              0
              14 February 2013 19: 44
              Quote: Kars
              So I’m primarily concerned about ours.

              yes, we don’t need another T-35

              Quote: Kars
              let them puff and think.

              Yes, they get money (good) for this)
              Quote: Kars
              I thought it was a projectile with an increased volume of explosives and remote detonation.

              and he too
              The Advanced Multi-Purpose (AMP) universal "cartridge" program is a projectile platform for delivering multifunctional ammunition to the target, which will provide the Abrams tank and future platforms based on 120 mm guns, with the possibility of defeating many targets of future battles.
              AMP will also be optimized for urban use to directly support infantry. This will provide the ability to participate and defeat the enemy infantry equipped with ATGM (s) at distances from 50 to 2000 m (T) and 50 m and 4500 m (O)



              http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh2011/108.pdf

              http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2012/Army/0603639A_4_PB_2012.pdf

              http://www.bctmod.army.mil/downloads/pdf/WSH_2012_201110053.pdf
              (here generally from hydra-70 (very good) to drugs)
              Sorry !!!! Again, these parasites do not write in Ukrainian, blah how many times warned them .... No.
              1. 0
                14 February 2013 20: 05
                Quote: Postman
                we do not need another T-35

                What is this? To my proposal for a 30-45 mm firing point in the headquarters?
                Quote: Postman
                will provide the ability to participate and defeat enemy infantry equipped with ATGM (s) at distances from 50 to 2000 m (T) and 50 m and 4500 m (O

                This is expected, for the small upgrade the most. In a large caliber will be even more effective
                Quote: Postman
                201110053.pdf

                Something went wrong with me and for the last few weeks I have been stubbornly unwilling to open pdfs online.
                1. postman
                  +4
                  14 February 2013 20: 13
                  Quote: Kars
                  T-35

                  this

                  about crazy I myself sent you a gorgeous modelka
                  .photo of course ...
                  Quote: Kars
                  something went wrong with me

                  browser-settings-applications-actions.
                  won't help, just tear it down and reapply
                  1. 0
                    14 February 2013 20: 18
                    Quote: Postman
                    Quote: Kars
                    T-35

                    this

                    I mean a big floppy monster that constantly broke?
                    1. postman
                      +2
                      14 February 2013 22: 05
                      Quote: Kars
                      I mean a big floppy monster that constantly broke?

                      YES YES YES...
                      so or:










                      Evolution or degradation?
                      1. -1
                        14 February 2013 22: 45
                        Quote: Postman
                        Evolution or degradation?

                        Well, the Americans didn’t get heavy tanks.
                        It's easier to put M 26 - M47 / 48 ----- M60

                        But Abrams still got a 120 mm gun like the M103 (caliber)
                2. bask
                  +1
                  14 February 2013 20: 49
                  Quote: Kars
                  cover pdfs online

                  The same x..and mine. Or they open but not all.
                  And how not to recall the Amerov M-60. Manufactured to a caliber of 152 mm. Under the gun / launcher XM13T13 in the modified version of M162. Made under the ATGM, Schillela, Adopted under the designation M60 A2.
                  1. 0
                    14 February 2013 21: 02
                    Quote: bask
                    Under the gun / launcher XM13T13

                    The times then were such that the 105 mm head didn’t fit in any way.
                    By the way, we remembered Sheridan in a previous topic
                  2. postman
                    +1
                    14 February 2013 22: 32
                    Quote: bask
                    Or open but not all.

                    This is when the download is not completed (large document)
                    e.g.: http://www.bctmod.army.mil/downloads/pdf/WSH_2012_201110053.pdf
                    minutes 3and.
                    bottom left (Lame) icon: circulation = loading)
                    1. bask
                      +2
                      15 February 2013 13: 18
                      Quote: Postman
                      bottom left (Lame) icon: circulation = loading)

                      50s American heavy tanks

                      Progress on the face

                      1. postman
                        +1
                        15 February 2013 21: 51
                        Quote: bask
                        Progress on the face

                        I (the one before progress) in wot no parasite goes ...
        2. bask
          +1
          14 February 2013 20: 13
          Quote: Kars
          Another trend is 60-80 x that the best anti-tank tool is the tank is no longer relevant.

          Everyone agreed on the main thing to increase the caliber of OBT120mm and 125 mm is not advisable Cheaper and more efficient the use of new ammunition.
          But it is necessary to create a new assault gun directly to support MBT and to destroy well-fortified targets.
          At the nat .. Assault mortar ,, Assault 38 cm ,, RW61
          1. -1
            14 February 2013 20: 25
            Quote: bask
            All agreed on the main increase in caliber OBT120mm and 125 mm is not advisable

            I don’t know who, where the next-generation tank has fallen for without an increase in caliber will not be available. Let it have an uninhabited tower, or a crew of two people. It just doesn’t have the determination and will to take a step. Once armed with the T-34 instead of the expected 45 mm 76 mm long gun
            Quote: bask
            But it is necessary to create a new assault gun directly to support MBT and to destroy well-fortified targets.

            Why produce specialized units, the Germans on this pretty much burned.
            1. bask
              +1
              14 February 2013 21: 20
              Quote: Kars
              I know who, where on what has agreed, but the tank of the next generation without an increase in caliber is no longer available

              A crew of 3 people. This is a minimum. For servicing MBTs. Loading BC, cleaning tools, washing. And so on. Even if you increase the caliber. Elementary 2 tankers just can’t cope. About the uninhabited tower is a separate topic. But why the increase in caliber ? Of the above samples with a 140mm cannon. Not one was put into service. Not in Russia, not in Ukraine, not in NATO countries and Switzerland. Why? Technologies can start mass production of MBTs with a 140mm cannon. Do it right now.
              1. 0
                14 February 2013 21: 46
                I will start from the end and answer not in my own words.
                Quote: bask
                Technologies to start mass production of MBTs with a 140mm gun allow., Do it right now

                Quote: Aron Zaavi
                But besides opportunity, need is also needed. Any rearmament requires enormous expenses, and even the artillery rearmament of BTVs is even more so. Today for Israel there is no need for a 140 mm gun

                We change Israel to Ukraine, the USA, Great Britain. Germany.

                And there is no need because progress froze, it’s about like a dreadnought race before the First World War. Until someone built Dreadnought, everyone managed with armadillos.
                Quote: bask
                if you increase the caliber. Elementary 2 tankers simply can not cope

                I suppose if the tank is PROSPECT external automatic loading of cartridges from a transport-loading machine.
                Quote: bask
                gun cleaning, washing. and so on

                an interesting survey --- you can give it to outsourcers, but in a real war there will be no time for washing, then there would be a battle to survive.
                1. bask
                  +2
                  14 February 2013 22: 41
                  Quote: Kars
                  I will start from the end and I will answer not in my own words

                  I will do the same.

                  Quote: Postman
                  money.
                  mani decide everything.
                  The cartridge can not be replaced (the motive has been found by millions and the equipment is all sharpened)

                  That's it. A caliber of 120-125 mm MBT is enough for a wave.

                  Quote: Aron Zaavi
                  Firstly, the latest development of 120 mm ammunition, both against infantry, including those in hiding and against armored vehicles, yielded excellent results, and secondly, the army is in the process of saturating with heavy ATGMs with a range of 8 to 25 km. In general, all design bureaus work for the future, otherwise for what they get paid?

                  In my opinion, the whole topic is closed. + Forgot. NANO materials for the development of explosives for warheads.
                  1. -1
                    14 February 2013 22: 56
                    Quote: bask
                    Caliber 120-125 mm MBT wave is enough

                    As a result of the use of tanks in Grozny is not enough.
                    And the Russian Federation still needs new BPS to reach the German in terms of armor penetration. Or an opiracy gathered on Mango forever.
                    Quote: bask
                    In my opinion, the whole topic is closed. + Forgot

                    And what are they straining if they are ahead of the Russian Federation?
                    Quote: bask
                    NANO materials for the development of explosives for warheads

                    And will a nano explosive not be more expensive than 152 mm ammunition? While still yielding a 30% interest in explosives? The resource for raising explosive power is not rubber. Even with fluoroxidants.
            2. postman
              +2
              14 February 2013 22: 09
              Quote: Kars
              but the tank of the next generation without an increase in caliber is no longer available.

              come on
              new materials + new remote control + UAV + vertical launcher SAM + new explosives + integrated SU and Tsu = here is the new generation


              Quote: Kars
              There is simply not enough determination and the will to take a step.

              money.
              mani decide everything.
              The cartridge can not be replaced (the motive has been found by millions and the equipment is all sharpened)
              1. -1
                14 February 2013 22: 26
                Quote: Postman
                new materials + new remote control + UAV + vertical launcher SAM + new explosives + integrated SU and Tsu = here is the new generation

                2049? and you see how much is needed, but here just raise the ciber.
                And by the way, all this should be in a complex, otherwise it would be a 3+ generation tank with UAVs, 3+ with new shells. 3+ with new armor.
                Quote: Postman
                money.
                mani decide everything.

                Oh yes, UVZ now needs money.
                Quote: Postman
                The cartridge can’t replace

                There are probably even more cartridges in weight than the expected 2000 Armat. Ammunition will still have to be made new even under 125 mm to be tightened.
                1. 0
                  14 February 2013 22: 47
                  By the way, almost with
                  Quote: Postman
                  vertical PU SAM
                2. postman
                  0
                  14 February 2013 23: 12
                  Quote: Kars
                  UVZ now needs money.

                  not only. And Kharkov?
                  1. 0
                    14 February 2013 23: 16
                    Quote: Postman
                    And Kharkov?

                    This is how Kharkov Kharkov needs money unlike UVZ. Our state money does not spoil it.
                    Therefore, I am rooting for the progressiveness of the armata --- if it does, then the Chinese and Pakistanis will be drawn to us. In general, this can revive the tank market.
                    1. postman
                      +2
                      14 February 2013 23: 32
                      Quote: Kars
                      Therefore, then I'm rooting for the progressiveness of the Almaty

                      Shhh. Right now, you’ll be branded with the 5th column and on the scoreboard (in PM, in PM what thread will be spoiled again)
                    2. postman
                      +1
                      15 February 2013 17: 24
                      who are you so annoyed?
                      1. 0
                        15 February 2013 17: 57
                        To whom? I myself will ask such a question. In this thread, in the course of the minus in each comment.
                      2. bask
                        +1
                        15 February 2013 20: 17
                        Quote: Postman
                        oh why are you so annoying?

                        Postman. Noticed put a minus + What to spread on the Internet.
                3. postman
                  +3
                  14 February 2013 23: 18
                  Quote: Kars
                  2049?

                  I think you went on the right track


                  Quote: Kars
                  UVZ now needs money.

                  not only. And Kharkov?

                  Quote: Kars
                  than expected 2000 Armat

                  Hard to believe .....
                  6 800 000 000,00 s3,14dili / TOK on a roller coaster: GOOD ХАRASHO WORK !!!!!
                  1. -1
                    14 February 2013 23: 28
                    Quote: Postman
                    Hard to believe .....
                    6 s800dili / TOK on a roller coaster

                    Well, that’s another topic. Either there is no money, or they are there, but their ,,,,,
                    Quote: Postman
                    I think you went on the right track

                    Is this about what exactly?
                    1. postman
                      +1
                      15 February 2013 00: 24
                      Quote: Kars
                      Is this about what exactly?

                      T-84U and Oplot M
                      T-84-120, KERN-2 120
                      cheap and cheerful
                      1. -1
                        15 February 2013 00: 34
                        Quote: Postman
                        cheap and cheerful

                        It’s cheap compared to what we have. So far we haven’t hit the Oplotov aircraft (not the T-84) yet.
                      2. postman
                        +2
                        15 February 2013 13: 21
                        Quote: Kars
                        Looking compared to what is cheap.

                        you will see numbers on armature ....
                        you will be surprised.
                        / therefore I speak cheaply /
                        Quote: Kars
                        We are still in the Oplotov Sun

                        Remind how we had with the air defense system, tanks and so on.
                        Sell, get fat, put yourself Hold-3
                        in barrels what kind of fuel?

                        AND WHY DOES I HAVE OFF-ROAD RUBBER KIT?
                        / Or is it filmed in your garage?
                      3. 0
                        15 February 2013 16: 32
                        Quote: Postman
                        / Or is it filmed in your garage?

                        And then where.
                        Quote: Postman
                        Sell, get fat, put yourself Hold-3

                        I did just that, but we are stolen, or redistributed money to other needs in the best case.
                        I already voiced --- sold 10 tanks, put one in the new aircraft, but where is it.
                        Selling out all the excess.
                      4. postman
                        +2
                        15 February 2013 17: 22
                        Quote: Kars
                        Selling out all the excess.

                        look for ....
                        Ivory Coast?
          2. bask
            +1
            14 February 2013 21: 47
            Quote: bask
            Why produce specialized units, the Germans on this pretty much burned.

            But how effective in storming cities. Mortira, 38 cm RW 61 During the storming of Warsaw. The only record of the front-line chronicle. Where are the mortars in battle and what are their deadly ammunition? Destruction of the house. 380 mm. Launcher.
            1. +3
              14 February 2013 22: 41
              Quote: bask
              For urban combat, there is no better technique.


              Soviet self-propelled 406-mm gun SM-54 (2A3) for firing nuclear weapons "Capacitor". In 1957, the 2AZ self-propelled guns took place in a parade on Red Square and made a splash among domestic residents and foreign journalists. Some foreign experts have suggested that the cars shown at the parade are just a sham designed for a frightening effect. However, it was a real artillery system shot at a firing range.
              1. +3
                14 February 2013 22: 52
                Mortar installation 2B2 Oka 420 mm

                Soviet self-propelled 420 mm mortar installation. Rate of fire - 1 shot in 5 minutes. Firing range - 25 km, active-reactive mine - 50 km. Mines weight - 670 kg. Designed for firing nuclear charges. During tests it was found that the monstrous recoil does not allow such a gun to be operated for a long time. After which they refused the serial production. In the metal there was one single “Oka” of the four released.
              2. bask
                +2
                14 February 2013 23: 35
                Quote: JACOB
                406-mm SM-54 (2A3) self-propelled self-propelled gun for firing “Condenser” nuclear weapons.

                But she did not participate in battles. Only in parades. And the German M-38cm thing. The main thing is very effective.
                1. +3
                  15 February 2013 03: 16
                  Quote: bask
                  But she did not participate in battles


                  Maybe fortunately. If it weren’t a NWF, the world would not have lasted so long ...
            2. -1
              14 February 2013 23: 33
              The photo is also 380 mm.
              And as for the assault on the tiger, I still think that a linear Tiger with 88 mm would still be more useful for the Fritz. And they only weakened themselves by storms.
          3. +1
            14 February 2013 23: 51
            And if Che, you can remove YOU-DY-SHCH!
  9. alkach555
    +1
    14 February 2013 16: 28
    Maybe the tank will not need a gun soon. Enlighten who knows.
    1. +1
      14 February 2013 17: 49
      Without a gun, it will not be quite a tank.
    2. bask
      +2
      14 February 2013 17: 57

      And yet, with ammunition and a change in the caliber of the guns, even with explosives based on new principles. The situation in tank building cannot be changed. Projects of new MBTs will use old schemes. With an increase in the thickness of composite and steel armor, engine power, and the use of DZ. New guns need new design solutions in the design of MBTs.
      1. 0
        14 February 2013 18: 04
        Quote: bask
        The situation in tank building cannot be changed

        And now what to change?
        In armature, as I understand it, the emphasis is on modularity. And it is necessary to change mainly air defense systems.
        Quote: bask
        For new guns we need new design solutions in the design of MBT

        What exactly needs to be changed in design solutions to increase the caliber of guns?
  10. bask
    0
    14 February 2013 18: 28

    ,, Object ,, 292

    Front view.

    From the stern.

    But in the near future. It’s unlikely that we will see anything completely technologically breakthrough. On Armata, an uninhabited tower with 125 mm will agree the gun.
  11. Nechai
    +2
    15 February 2013 03: 30
    Quote: Mikhado
    There is one subtlety with 152mm cannons. This is already a "nuclear" caliber, and the tank falls under certain restrictions as a possible carrier.

    Ay, come on dear. 152mm caliber is not suitable for restrictions. Even under ebnen, they installed a satellite surveillance and alarm system in the artillery brigades on the "Peonies". But who said that in a caliber smaller than 152mm there is no or at least it is impossible to pack a special charge. It was infa, at the end of the 80s, that work was underway on a 100mm such a projectile.
    Yes, now the amers are going to unscrew the Kremlin’s hands and according to TNW. The boom hopes this will not happen. Otherwise, such a complete polar scribe will come!
  12. Nechai
    +1
    15 February 2013 04: 59
    ps. And our dark-skinned "brothers" were chasing and wearing winter helmets made of force - they really like how white FUR sets off their swarthiness or the bluish color of their skin. Well, what's hot is not comilfo for us. They are afraid of something, a bone is a bone. And as you know, a couple of bones do not ache.
    (In winter helmets, fur was "put", not a flannel, you put on a woolen helmet-mask and no frost is terrible + there is a hood. I got a black hood from the mechanics from the airfield, trimmed with fox fur - lovely!)
    But in the summer hat, under the forehead, auricles, and neck, a very delicate natural rawhide was sewn. To wash it from dirt and sweat to a virgin state, when performing work on switching to winter operation, it was possible and needed only with the purest white spirit. Quickly and efficiently. The one that is now sold in the store is a shnyaga, compared to that wye spirit.
  13. +1
    15 February 2013 08: 16
    I think the problem with 140 mm guns is not the size of the ammunition, but the return of the gun. All modern howitzers with a caliber of about 150 mm have a muzzle brake on the gun. It can be installed on howitzers, because the calculation always has a fire spotter (at least there must be one) that sees the results of the shooting and can adjust the fire even if the crew does not see anything because of the dust column after the shot. There is no spotter on the tanks, so staying blind even for a minute is mortally dangerous. Therefore, the recoil of the gun is extinguished by recoil devices, and the mass of the tank. And this entails greater fuel consumption (reduces range), creates transportation problems, and worsens cross-country ability.
  14. Nechai
    +4
    15 February 2013 14: 46
    The problem of the number of used supplies in the ammunition stowage also requires reflection. A lot of shells is good, the "autonomy" of intensive battles increases. BUT it is extremely difficult to isolate the b / c from the crew and vital vehicle units. That increases the likelihood of the death of both the crew and the vehicle itself. And with their death, the ammunition, which is also priceless on the front end, is irretrievably lost, without causing damage to the enemy. All efforts, funds, time for the production and delivery of shells to the tank went into the sand.
    Small b / c solves some of these problems, affecting others.
    The exit is not only, as always, in the "golden mean", but also the creation of a new link in the supply of units. Conditionally, let's call them armored supply transporters. Re-equipment of the BTT. directly in the vicinity of the front edge with the help of ammunition supply modules (I cannot call this "container" a magazine). The process of replacing the modules itself must be as automated as possible and take place without leaving the l / s from under the armor on both vehicles - both on the tank and on the conveyor.
    Igor, the muzzle brake of a tank gun is not contraindicated. Something even very useful. Just dramatically reduces the dust cloud after the shot, directing a significant part of the gases into the horizon plane. But it reduces the survivability, and not so great, of the barrel of the gun. The amount of recoil energy is very significant and it is becoming more and more difficult to extinguish. Perhaps a way out will be found on the path of abandoning high-ballistic guns, switching to a low-ballistic gun. BUT with shells accelerating TWO pulses. The second is naturally OUTSIDE the trunk. And after carrying out the HARVEST on the target, if required. In this way, it is possible to COMPLETELY solve many problems in various sections of the existence of the tank. Starting from its creation, to its field support and successful application.
    The stop with the introduction of the 140mm and 152mm tank guns was caused primarily by becoming the main reason (and this is well reflected in the article) the collapse of the USSR, followed by the capitulatory policy of the rulers in the post-Soviet space. And nothing more. With the aggravation of contradictions and the building up of potentials of confrontation, there will be a return to this topic without fail.
    1. +1
      15 February 2013 20: 10
      Quote: Nechai
      Just dramatically reduces the dust cloud after the shot, directing a significant part of the gases into the horizon plane.

      For example, a shot from MSTA-S:

      And T-90:

      Obviously, the dust cloud from 2C19 is larger. No wonder tank guns are trying to get rid of the muzzle brake.
  15. 0
    15 February 2013 22: 49
    It is necessary to increase the rate of fire.