A brief history of Siberian separatism

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The problem of creating a Ukrainian or Belarusian myth (the existence of separate nations - Ukrainians and Belarusians, as well as their states) is more or less voiced. But the origins of the myth - "independent Siberia" is much less known. This article will discuss the origins of Siberian separatism, the so-called. Siberian regionalism, and its development.

A brief history of Siberian separatism


Initially, Siberian regionalism is the intention to obtain autonomous status or even state independence of Siberia. This idea originated in the middle of the 19 century in the metropolitan student environment, people from the well-to-do layers of the Western Siberian region of the Russian Empire. This handful of radical youth, having read a lot of liberal, revolutionary literature, dreamed of separating Siberia from Russia, and creating a state there, taking the USA as a model. They created the "Circle of Siberian studying youth." The St. Petersburg circle included Grigory Potanin, Nikolai Yadrintsev, Seraphim Shashkov, Nikolai Naumov, Fedor Usov, and others. They were close in their views to the revolutionary populists, advocated democratic freedoms and the revolutionary struggle against tsarism.

Students studied the populist ideas of A.I. Herzen and N.G. Chernyshevsky, the anarcho-federalist ideas of M.A. Bakunin, the Zemstvo-regional theory of A.P. Shchapov, historical the works of N. I. Kostomarov and even the freedom-loving poetry of T. G. Shevchenko. Exiled Decembrists and Petrashevists, the first Siberian historian P. A. Slovtsov, were considered the ideological predecessors. A major role in shaping their worldview was played by US history. Many of them carried this fascination with the States through their whole lives. In 1893, Nikolai Yadrintsev wrote to Grigory Potanin during his American trip: “I am writing to you on July 4 - a holiday of independence: imagine my feelings ... My heart sank, and pain and longing for our country. Oh my God! Will it be so blooming. " A very characteristic phenomenon for Westerners - for them the countries of the West are a model and role model in everything.

Western ideas and Western colonization became an impetus for future Siberian separatists to the realization of the colonial position of Siberia within Russia. Later, during the investigation, Potanin said bluntly that the idea of ​​separating Siberia from Russia came from an analogy with the history of North America and the Spanish American colonies, which gained independence from their metropolises. The pioneers of Siberian separatism showed keen interest in Western social and economic theories. In their writings and letters, a whole list of Western authors whose works they studied - P.J. Proudhon and Louis Blanc, A. Saint-Simon, G.Ch. Carey, C. Marx, V. Roscher, A, Leroy-Beaulieu, D. Dreper. Western ideas were necessary for the scientific substantiation of the "Siberian issues." Already in the 1880-s of the XIX century, after the arrest and freedom, regional leaders actively promoted the achievements of Western colonial science on the pages of their press organ - in the newspaper "Eastern Review".

Returning to Siberia, free-thinkers began their campaigns. They opposed the "colonial oppression", in defense of foreigners, offered to cancel the criminal link to Siberia, protested against the "ebb of young students from Siberia to the capital." They considered Siberia as a political and economic colony of European Russia, and the inhabitants of the region, the Siberians, were considered a new nation. Noted the unfair distribution of funds - their outflow from Siberia. Among their ideas were quite sensible, like the need to open a university in Siberia.

We established contacts with Russian political exiles and Poles (participants in the uprising). They began to prepare an armed uprising. The armed struggle should have preceded a significant stage of preparation. It included active propaganda, including the ideas of the independence of Siberia; expanding the ranks of his supporters, searching for contacts with sympathizers, “relations with other cities, villages and mines”; device secret printing houses; raising money, etc. Propaganda was primarily aimed at the educated part of the townspeople and, above all, at the youth. Projects were developed for publishing their own newspapers, magazines, literary and journalistic collections, and organizing a special Siberian Review in the Russian Word magazine.

In the summer of 1865, their plot was uncovered. The proclamation “To the Patriots of Siberia” was discovered in the Siberian Cadet Corps. A “case of the separation of Siberia from Russia and the creation of a republic similar to the United States” was launched, which has become one of the largest political processes in Russia. 70 people were brought to the investigation, 19 were convicted of them, they were sentenced to prison and exile. In particular, Potanin after a three-year stay in Omsk prison in May 1868, was subjected to a civilian penalty of a disgraceful punishment when an arrested person was publicly humiliated (breaking a sword over his head as a sign of deprivation of all rights of state — property, parental, class privileges, ranks, awards etc.). Potanin was sent to penal servitude in Sveaborg, where he sat until November 1871. Then sent to the city of Nikolsk, Vologda province. In 1874, at the request of the Imperial Russian Geographical Society Potanin was amnestied. Another Yadrintsev activist in 1868 was convicted and exiled to Shenkursk, Arkhangelsk province. He was also pardoned in 1874.

Katorga and exile somewhat paused the “regionalists” and when the winds of freedom blew out again in Russia, the oblast area acquired a somewhat softer character, the separatists began talking about autonomy. In 1880 - 1890, the oblast directors actively supported the establishment of local (local) self-government in the Siberian region. At the beginning of the 20 century, they were divided into two groups: regional cadets (A. Adrianov, A. Hattenberger, P. Vologodsky, I. Serebrennikov, and others) and regional social workers (P. Derber J., Kolosov E.E.). After February and October 1917, the Siberian separatists were able to make their dreams come true. In August, a conference was held in Tomsk, which adopted a resolution “On the Autonomous Structure of Siberia” within the framework of a federation with self-determination of regions and nationalities. She also approved the white-green flag of Siberia. In October and December 1917, general Siberian regional congresses were held in Tomsk, they announced the need for their own executive, judicial and legislative powers. The 1-Siberian Government was established - the Provisional Siberian Regional Council, headed by Grigory Potanin. Potanin by this time was a famous Russian geographer, botanist, traveler, who explored the little-studied areas of Mongolia, China and Tibet. The Siberian Regional Duma in Tomsk became the supreme legislative body of the “Siberian government”. The Duma began work on 20 (28) on January 1918. It included representatives of the Socialist-Revolutionary Party, Menshevik Party, regional leaders, organizations of the indigenous peoples of Siberia (Altai, Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, etc.) and migrants (Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, etc.). Its chairman was Social Revolutionary I. A. Yakushev. True, after a few days, the chairman of the Tomsk Council of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies, N. N. Yakovlev, dispersed the Siberian Duma. Its activity was resumed after the uprising of the Czechoslovak Corps, but then the Duma was again dissolved, at the request of the Provisional Siberian Government.

During the Civil War, the provincialists of a cadet orientation actively supported Kolchak, many of them became part of his government, and the regional Socialist Revolutionaries were in opposition. It should be noted that, both in the second half of the 19 century, and at the beginning of the 20 century, the idea of ​​autonomy or independence of Siberia did not extend beyond a rather narrow circle of intellectuals. Ordinary people did not hear about any Siberian regionalism or independence, he was worried about more pressing issues - war and peace, bread, red and white terror, etc. White also did not support this idea, since their program was based on united and indivisible "Russia, although they used the administrative experience of individual leaders. With the arrival of the Bolsheviks, fortunately, the situation has not changed. The theme of the “autonomy of Siberia” was not supported by the Bolsheviks, as in Little Russia or Belarus before the ethnic separation of the body of a single Russian people and Russian statehood.

A new breath in this destructive idea appeared during the collapse of the Soviet Union. At the suggestion of the Americans, the topic of Siberian oblastism was stepped up in Russia and several radical groups of Siberian separatists were created, sometimes even a few dozen people (the possibilities of campaigning were sharply increased, as was the circle of intellectuals prone to Western "novelties"). True, initially these circles practically did not go beyond their limits and did not represent a special danger, without support from above. But the trial balloons of the establishment of the “Ural Republic”, “independent Siberia”, or its sales (long-term lease transfers) of the USA have already been launched. Ideas and slogans were the same as before. They say that Moscow exploits suburbs, misappropriates financial flows, Siberia is in fact a colony of European Russia. It was proved that with the separation of Siberia, its inhabitants would perfectly heal even without Moscow, since they have the whole “Mendeleev table”. The supporters of the independence of Ukraine and the Baltic republics worked in the same spirit.

In 1990-2000-ies, with the mass coming to life of the Internet, there was a movement for the creation of the Siberian language and people. There were ideas of creating a “melting pot”, following the example of America, where the entire population of Siberia is mixed up, and a “Siberian language” will be created for the newly formed “ethnos”. There were even attempts to create such a language, a Tomsk businessman, Yaroslav Zolotorov, and became the creator of an artificial "Siberian language." To create it, Zolotarev used the Siberian and Pomorian dialects of the Russian language, archaic words, elements of South Russian vocabulary, Mongolism and Turkism. It must be said that Zolotarev was an activist of the Siberian regional movement “Volgotha” and was marked in insulting expressions in relation to the Russian people.

Thus, a new wave of Siberian separatism arose among the denationalized liberals, Western intellectuals, for whom the United States was a model and example, as for Westerners, liberals of the end of 19 - the beginning of 20 centuries was the ideal of England (or France). Naturally, the western "partners and friends" of Russia did not remain aloof from this very interesting process, in terms of the final solution of the "Russian question" and the complete victory over the main geopolitical opponent. In particular, grants for the study and popularization of Siberian regionalism from the Soros Foundation began to be allocated. Ukrainian nationalists also took part in this, dreaming of creating a new artificial nation and a "Siberian language." It is clear that, in general, this movement still does not affect the masses. However, who would have thought before the 1917 year, that Ukraine and Belarus will be created on the body of the Russian state? The project has already been created and with the support of the local political elite and external assistance - from the United States, the European Union and China, it can be fully implemented. It is obvious that if the internal and external enemies of Russia can realize the scenario of the collapse of the Russian Federation, following the example of the Russian Empire and the USSR, this plan and its carriers will be in demand.
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  1. +9
    14 February 2013 08: 30
    Margaret Thatcher openly stated that Siberia does not belong to Russia by right, and I think other Western officials agree with this. It is they who organize all these "self-determination", when the Naglo-Saxons will take care of themselves, in 40-50 years in Europe and even in the USA there will be a minority of Arabs and Negroes ...
    1. +1
      14 February 2013 08: 37
      Do you know why the West does not need us to have Siberia? Because there is oil, gas and other minerals, on the sale of which we are kept afloat.
      1. +7
        14 February 2013 09: 16
        Quote: Deniska999
        Because there is oil, gas and other minerals, on the sale of which we are kept afloat.
        And I do not agree with you ... Minerals are of course important, but the territory is more important .... Many invaders got faces in the face precisely because they could not swallow the vastness of Russia ...
        Only the Mongol-Tatars managed to capture Russia, and only because it was a bunch of small principalities, scattered and not defended ... But in 41 Panfilov’s defended Moscow, including those who came from Omsk and were Siberians and north Kazakhstanis
        1. +4
          14 February 2013 10: 10
          Quote: older
          .Many invaders got faces in the face precisely because they could not swallow the vastness of Russia ...
          I agree. The possibility of accumulating reserves far from the front means a lot ... It’s not for nothing that our naval pilots bombed Berlin already in the 41 ... so that they knew what real war was, and not from the speeches of Hitler and Goebels
          1. +12
            14 February 2013 10: 23
            Quote: domokl
            and not from the speeches of Hitler and Goebels
            1. Overlord
              0
              1 January 2014 20: 45
              And why are Ukrainians and Belarusians Russian? You can justify it clearly? Or maybe Latvians and Litvinians are also Russian?
        2. Marek Rozny
          +2
          14 February 2013 17: 31
          Quote: older
          And in 41 Moscow the Panfilovites defended, including those who came from Omsk and were Siberians and North Kazakhstanis

          I will correct it. The 316th SD (it later became the 8th State Duma named after Panfilov) was formed mainly from residents of the Almaty region. For this, Commander Panfilov arrived in Alma-Ata from the city of Frunze (present Bishkek), where he was the head of the military commissariat there.
          Nevertheless, yes, the role of Siberians and Kazakhstanis in protecting Moscow in the winter of 1941 is gigantic and exclusive.
        3. 0
          15 February 2013 18: 33
          So the separatists must probably learn a better story ...
        4. -1
          16 February 2013 22: 36
          older,
          The Great Tartary existed before Christianity and Islam. We must preserve the heritage of our ancestors today. All creeps are a worthy rebuff.
      2. -2
        14 February 2013 20: 43
        But Moscow really needs Siberia to pull oil, gas, gold, diamonds, etc. from it.
        1. walter_rus
          +2
          14 February 2013 23: 19
          If you talk like that, then all of them are pulling something. It is necessary to separate not only regions, but even rooms in apartments. This point of view is very convenient for those who want to take us with their bare hands. The solution should not be to split up, but to make life in every village no worse than in Moscow.
          1. Overlord
            0
            1 January 2014 20: 47
            And how do you propose this to be achieved in such an exorbitantly vast country where nothing is really controlled and this is one of the causes of terrible corruption?
        2. 0
          15 February 2013 18: 37
          And Siberians need to study in the best Moscow universities, to leave behind everything that the entire people of the USSR and Russia has created and built, and to secede with a "proud" air? ...
        3. Overlord
          0
          1 January 2014 20: 46
          Absolutely right. We are a colony and this is our only destination. We can develop only without the dictates of the metropolis.
      3. DuraLexSedLex.
        +1
        15 February 2013 00: 05
        Yes, God be with you, the emperor himself said that Alexander 2: "I will have to retreat until Kamchatka! And he called me Emperor Kamchedal." I think the size mattered then in 1812, and in 1945 and now.
      4. steel frame
        0
        17 February 2013 01: 59
        Duc for some reason "float" Moscow, that's why separatism.
    2. +13
      14 February 2013 09: 13
      Quote: Dinver
      Argaret Thatcher openly stated that Siberia does not belong to Russia by right, and I think other Western officials agree with this. They also organize all these "self-determinations",
      I do not agree with you. I have already raised this problem here repeatedly. The author of the article presses on ideology, but the roots of the problem are not in it. Siberians are now Russians or Russians, as you like ... But. A decade of the 21 century has passed, and the outskirts It remains the outskirts. We have no prospects.
      There are institutes, there are universities, there is industry, there are resources .... But any of the Siberians will tell you, all this is controlled by Muscovites or Pitters. Local workers are only hired.
      While the government will deal with the Caucasus, Moscow, Olympiads and look at Siberia as a calm region, separatism will only grow ...
      1. +15
        14 February 2013 09: 27
        Quote: older
        There are institutes, there are universities, there is industry, there are resources .... But any of the Siberians will tell you, all this is controlled by Muscovites or Pitters. Local workers are only hired.

        At one time, many Siberians migrated to Moscow, began to be called Muscovites. Maybe enough to divide the Russian people into Muscovites and Siberians?
        I am a Siberian! But for no rugs I do not want to separate from the European part of the country. This is my country, and Siberia, and the Far East, and Peter (Leningrad), and Moscow. And give Moscow ....? am In the 41st year Siberians defended Moscow, and now they will not give.
        Quote: older
        But a decade has passed since the 21st century, and the outskirts remain the outskirts. We have no prospects.

        But this, to put it mildly, is not true. Where I live, the area is evolving. We just have to work, not whine, that everything is bad and we were cheated. This was in the late 80s, and what happened? Lost the country, including thanks to separatism.
        1. +2
          14 February 2013 09: 36
          Quote: Ustas
          At one time, many Siberians migrated to Moscow, began to be called Muscovites. Maybe enough to divide the Russian people into Muscovites and Siberians?
          My dear, I’m just one of those migrants who lived in Moscow for a quarter of a century and returned home to Siberia ... That’s why I see more than both of them ... Young people do not see prospects in life and only heels run away from here sparkle ... As once in the 80-90 fled to Germany for permanent residence ...
          1. +2
            14 February 2013 10: 12
            Quote: older
            Young people do not see prospects in life and runs away from here only heels sparkle ... As once when in 80-90 she fled to Germany for permanent residence ...
            I also noticed this ... In my house, almost everyone earned money, either in the north or in Moscow, and students from the nearest universities took their place
          2. +5
            14 February 2013 10: 38
            Quote: older
            . Young people do not see prospects in life and flees from here


            Hand on heart, is it? The prospect is something? Why would Medvedev not build Skolkovo again, but let Novosib develop! The finished science city was a legacy from the USSR! They forgot! Or maybe they specially finished off Skolkovo.
            1. +2
              14 February 2013 10: 48
              Quote: sergo0000

              Hand on heart, is it? The prospect is something!? Why would Medvedev not build Skolkovo again, let’s say Novosib to develop! The finished science city was inherited from the USSR
              That's the thing. In Soviet times, scientists from all regions of the USSR dreamed of going to Akademgorodok ... Because it really was a national city. And Novosibirsk University was quoted almost higher than Moscow in some areas ...
              1. +1
                14 February 2013 12: 44
                A friend of his son received 12 people in a place at the Physics and Mathematics School at NSU; nothing threatens the faculty in the Academy with such a competition. Academ would have been built up a long time ago and the charter of the town will not be allowed, so they are building nearby Koltsovo.
            2. Overlord
              0
              1 January 2014 20: 52
              I need a loud PR. And so it is clear that nobody really needs the development of science and this is an imitation of activity in order to muffle the growing popular anger. And the independence of Siberia can become only one of the few manifestations of this anger ...
          3. 0
            14 February 2013 13: 28
            Quote: older
            My dear, I’m just one of those migrants who lived in Moscow for a quarter of a century and returned home to Siberia ... That’s why I see more than both of them ... Young people do not see prospects in life and only heels run away from here sparkle ... As once in the 80-90 fled to Germany for permanent residence ...

            No need to whine, we will change the system, the world will change. And we will definitely change it, and no one will be able to interfere. Why do you say? But everyone wants to live. You mentioned Germany, an acquaintance left, worked together in the same workshop, an ethnic German. Last seen him in 2001, he came, said “I can’t be there, I am Russian, that soul doesn’t accept the way of life.” And he left with his family because of his parents, they left in the early 90s, they are old already. he, in general, says the problem, they do not want to learn German, we are Russians, we are not fascists. Now, of course, he has worked out, but they live in East Germany, the mentality of people is different there. We will have prospects for everyone and for young people, for everyone The troubled time will end anyway.
            1. 0
              14 February 2013 14: 02
              Quote: baltika-18
              We will have prospects for everyone and for youth, for everyone. The troubled time will end anyway.
              The right words! Only in order for it to end sooner and we must crush all manifestations of separatism, nationalism, extremism and other isms ... We are one people, and the place of residence should be comfortable everywhere!
            2. Overlord
              0
              1 January 2014 20: 54
              I didn’t want to study. Why are you going to the country if you do not want to accept its way of life and become local? You can, of course, for the sake of money, how they go from Russia to Moscow, but this is a different story, but another country is clearly from different stories ..
          4. Overlord
            0
            1 January 2014 20: 51
            Well, what didn’t they do right when they left for \ Germany? Honor and praise be to them.
        2. +7
          14 February 2013 10: 44
          Ustas,
          Quote: Ustas
          At one time, many Siberians migrated to Moscow, began to be called Muscovites. Maybe enough to divide the Russian people into Muscovites and Siberians?


          For example, I am a Siberian, born and raised in Siberia, but life and service have developed so that migrated to Moscow? A daughter with a son-in-law is now in Novosibirsk and a grandson was born there, which means he is also a Siberian. And it is not Muscovites as such who rule, but mainly bureaucrats and oligarchs, cosmopolitans or compradors, shift workers living abroad and who do not care about Siberia as much as about Moscow. Therefore, there is no development, because these so-called "Muscovites-Londoners" are not interested in this. And without complete government regulation of a large economy in such a huge state with various similar economic and geographical differences, it would never lead the development of all regions to a common denominator as was done in the USSR. The liberal free economy, which is now focused on us, not on development, but on maximizing profit with the least cost and investment.
          1. 0
            16 February 2013 22: 43
            Ascetic,
            + I was born and lived in the Urals, the service abandoned in the suburbs. I still remember my small homeland.
        3. +6
          14 February 2013 11: 21
          Quote: Ustas
          At one time, many Siberians migrated to Moscow, began to be called Muscovites. Maybe enough to divide the Russian people into Muscovites and Siberians?

          I learned about Siberian separatism from this article, I don’t watch idiots around. But there are many dissatisfactions with the capital’s effective managers, they have one goal - to optimize production while increasing efficiency, to give more money to the center. Change for a year or two and change. I hope no one needs to be explained what happens to production without investing. That's why the tooth on temporary workers and the center. And what's the difference where this manager came from to Moscow, he was sent to us from the capital, and obviously he didn’t come to take care of us and the production
          1. walter_rus
            +1
            14 February 2013 23: 23
            And closer to the capital, they are guided by the same methods. And we divide - everywhere the same hierarchy will be formed.
          2. Overlord
            0
            1 January 2014 20: 56
            Golden words!
        4. 0
          14 February 2013 13: 11
          Quote: Ustas
          I am a Siberian! But for no rugs I do not want to separate from the European part of the country. This is my country, and Siberia, and the Far East, and Peter (Leningrad), and Moscow. And give Moscow ....? In the 41st year Siberians defended Moscow, and now they will not give.

          I support you, Gene. I lived in Siberia for 12 years. I have friends and former lovers there, and this is my country like everything else.
        5. anomalocaris
          +1
          14 February 2013 16: 38
          Quote: Ustas
          At one time, many Siberians migrated to Moscow

          And these are no longer Siberians, but Muscovites ... I didn’t separate myself either (and I wouldn’t want to separate myself), but life is a stubborn thing, I had to see the extinction of cities only because some individual ... sitting in Maskva , decided that they are not profitable ... Tired.
          1. Overlord
            0
            1 January 2014 20: 57
            It is true, but one should not forget one’s roots and one’s particularity. Perhaps the time will come when this will need to be demonstrated.
      2. +8
        14 February 2013 09: 32
        Talking about separatism in Siberia as a serious phenomenon is like listening to the opinion of a mentally ill person from a psychiatric hospital and taking it into account in the life of healthy people. The population of Siberia and the Urals clearly recognize themselves as Russians and do not even think of any separation. There are such "separatists" in Tula, Arkhangelsk and even in Moscow. Valeria Novodvorskaya dreams of living within the Moscow-Suzdal principality. You can talk about this only if you secretly hope to inflate, this is an idea, to the size "Ukrainian" myth... But here, this trick will not work, because representatives of God's chosen people do not live in Siberia, or their percentage is negligible. Then, as in Ukraine, the number of this people sometimes reaches 25%, especially in the western regions. Here are the roots of "Ukrainian" Russophobia. Actually, they are the most "purebred ukrami" according to the latest scientific data.
        http://www.km.ru/v-rossii/2013/02/13/istoricheskoe-edinstvo-rossii-i-ukrainy/703


        952-russkie-vragi-ukraintsev-potomu-c
        1. +3
          14 February 2013 09: 55
          Quote: ATATA
          The population of Siberia and the Urals clearly recognize themselves as Russians and do not even think of any separation.
          We need to speak even now, while they are in the bud ... Every day on the way to the garage I see an inscription-Glory to the seaside partisans .... And yet .. Huge, by Siberian standards, the mass of the correspondents were last written by a Siberian, a Uralian, a Far East ... You can’t forget about it ... It’s always harder to treat a disease than to prevent
          1. avt
            +2
            14 February 2013 10: 03
            Quote: older
            We need to speak even now, while they are in the bud ... Every day on the way to the garage I see an inscription-Glory to the seaside partisans .... And yet .. Huge, by Siberian standards, the mass of the correspondents were last written by a Siberian, a Uralian, a Far East ... You can’t forget about it ... It’s always harder to treat a disease than to prevent

            Quite right! And the most piquant thing is that these stunned people who are being led to this provocation, life does not teach anything! Well, after all, this is a simple two-move performed in the former Soviet republics and the slogan following independence is a suitcase, a railway station, Russia. And to hell who will prove that the indigenous-occupiers and that's it. And those who wish to look after the "indigenous peoples" will be found in the necessary quantities.
            1. +2
              14 February 2013 10: 14
              Quote: avt
              And the most piquant is that these stunned who are being conducted on this provocation, life does not teach anything
              In my opinion there is no one to teach there .. Usually these young people with education seemed to be studying, I want to know knowledge at zero and ambitions a la like in America ...
          2. +2
            14 February 2013 10: 46
            Quote: older
            .A huge, by Siberian standards, mass of correspondents was last written by a Siberian, a Uralian, and a Far East.

            Here I am about this huge mass I have not even heard, neither in Siberia, nor in the Urals.
            Give a link see this huge percentage. And the percentage ratio, it is an indicator in Africa.
            Quote: older
            Treating a disease is always harder than doing a preventative

            If you treat a non-existing disease, then you can really get sick.
            You know what they say: "The doctors have healed."
            There is no such problem as the separatism of the Siberians. I say again, the separatism of the Siberians is the same as the separatism of V.Novodvorskaya. That is, these are thoughts dug out of the nose of a degenerate. To talk about this problem seriously, this is a manifestation of separatism.
            1. +1
              14 February 2013 11: 55
              Quote: ATATA
              So I have not even heard about this huge mass, neither in Siberia, nor in the Urals.
              And you are not too lazy and look at the results of the last census of establishment in Russia ... I, too, was pleasantly surprised not only by Siberians, but also by goblins, gnomes, Pomors, and many others ... laughing
        2. Pit
          Pit
          +1
          14 February 2013 10: 10
          Quote: ATATA
          To speak of separatism in Siberia as a serious phenomenon is the same as listening to the opinion of a mentally ill person from a psychiatric hospital and taking it into account in the lives of healthy people. The population of Siberia and the Urals clearly recognize themselves as Russians and do not even think of any separation.

          Yes, they don’t think, but not so long ago there were statements that we were feeding Moscow and for what kind of merit? And what do we have from this?
          Now it has become smaller, but still the opinion that Siberia can do without Moscow is warm.
          Although all these Narodnaya Volya people, in my opinion, need to be planted on the palace square, but they are more attentive to their requirements, because not always they drive the bought snowstorm, sometimes there are really sensible thoughts there.
          1. 0
            14 February 2013 10: 51
            Quote: Pit
            Now it has become smaller, but still the opinion that Siberia can do without Moscow is warm
            That's what I’m saying ... There are no idiots as in the photo, but there are conversations ... And not only among young people, they have the opportunity to escape .. Talks at 40-50 summers ... And this is much worse, because the influence of such people is greater. And often such conversations are conducted by representatives of the local intelligentsia ...
          2. 0
            14 February 2013 10: 54
            Quote: Pit
            what do we feed Moscow and for what kind of merit?

            This opinion is common in Russia. Even Tula believes that she feeds Moscow. There are people who think with their stomachs, but they forget how much was built in Siberia, and this took a lot of resources, including central Russia. But do not, this phenomenon gastric brain inflate to the ideas of separatism.
            And I already wrote that I am for the fact that the capital of Russia would be transferred to Siberia. What should I do? So far, we do not have Peter the Great, who would drive the boyars out of their homes and resettle them in a new city in Siberia. But I believe that he will appear soon.
            1. +2
              14 February 2013 11: 42
              This is about what Tula feeds (by the way, in 2009, Novosibirsk and Perm were donors) laughing
              1. +2
                14 February 2013 12: 40
                About the donation. The map above shows federal budgeting. Who counted how much money from subsidized regions goes to private companies and corporations? Subsidies are allocated from taxes on these profits, and the lion's share remains with the owners (in the center). That's how Moscow becomes a donor and subsidizes those who give it money.
            2. anomalocaris
              +1
              14 February 2013 16: 49
              Quote: ATATA
              how much was built in Siberia, and for this it took a lot of resources, including central Russia. But do not, this phenomenon of the gastric brain inflate to the ideas of separatism.

              Baby, everything that NOW works in Siberia was built in the 30-50s. What does MODERN Moscow have to do with all this?
          3. -2
            14 February 2013 11: 36
            But actually, for what merits do we feed MOSCOW?
            1. UltimaVV
              -1
              14 February 2013 12: 10
              personally feed? Or do you need to send an envelope with thanks? or do you think that only you work?
              1. +2
                14 February 2013 15: 47
                With my salary, we Yamal, in December, paid personal income tax 18945 rubles. Two honey. I definitely fed the sisters !!!!!!!
          4. +1
            14 February 2013 12: 17
            It is necessary to return Moscow to the Russians ...
        3. +2
          14 February 2013 11: 53
          Quote: ATATA
          We can only talk about this if we secretly hope to inflate this idea to the size of a "Ukrainian" myth. But here, this trick will not work, because representatives of God's chosen people do not live in Siberia,
          Again the God-chosen ones are to blame? The Siberian’s lack of fervor by the Moscow administration is just about everything ... And the most radical, of course, are for separation. But everyone understands that such a huge region with such a small population after separation will immediately come under the control of the closest states .. Japan, Kazakhstan ...
          However, the problem appeared and it still needs to be solved .. A cancer tumor is removed only when it is small .. If you miss the time, you will have to remove the whole body ...
          1. 0
            14 February 2013 15: 54
            About Kazakhstan, of course, bent laughing , in northern Kazakhstan the population density is even lower, and besides, the Russians are still there. But about the dissatisfaction of the Sibiryakov (and Uraltsevs) with the administration - you are right. good ......
            + + + + + + + +
          2. Marek Rozny
            -2
            14 February 2013 17: 42
            Quote: domokl
            Nevertheless, they perfectly understand that such a huge region with such a small population after separation will immediately come under the control of the closest states .. China, Japan, Kazakhstan ...

            He previously worked in the civil service, there were always meetings with Russian entrepreneurs and managers from the border of Siberia. Siberians (even officials) often said that they did not care about relations with Moscow, because the economies of their areas are usually tied to Kazakhstan. They usually also make investments from KZ, goods are sold to KZ, transport, energy, raw materials are connected with KZ, but the fact that the border regions are also connected by family ties in the literal sense is a byword.
            Indeed, the relations between Omsk or Gorno-Altaysk with Kazakhstan are much more interested in the local authorities and businessmen than in relations with their own capital.
            And if we recall that the lion's share of managers in the Omsk administration are former Kazakhstanis, it is not surprising that Kazakhstan is very close in all respects to Siberian officials. And the former long-term head of the Omsk region Polezhaev is still remembered with a kind word by many of his fellow countrymen in northern Kazakhstan.
            Meetings with the Russian Urals were usually held in the same atmosphere.
        4. donchepano
          0
          14 February 2013 12: 53
          Quote: ATATA

          Valeria Novodvorskaya, dreams of living within the Moscow-Suzdal principality.


          Please send this fury to some Suzdal monastery without the right to communicate with normal people
      3. anomalocaris
        +2
        14 February 2013 16: 33
        And who said that we are calm? We are thoughtful and thorough. My great-great-grandfather of the Belochekhs, along with his Kolchak, sent him off, by the way, he was never a Bolshevik. So, looking at what is happening now, I begin to slowly remember how to make the MSS, where to add naphthalene, how to dig a mound ...
      4. Overlord
        0
        1 January 2014 20: 49
        Development is not possible in the current value system. The more the Siberian features are emphasized, the more self-awareness of Siberians will begin to grow as a special community, and this may mean a stage of new development.
    3. Lich
      +4
      14 February 2013 09: 22
      It is necessary to execute such provocateurs in order to stop the ulcer in the bud, and the rest was not good!
      1. +3
        14 February 2013 12: 19
        Provocateurs in Moscow, not in Siberia ...
        1. -1
          14 February 2013 16: 03
          EXACTLY !!! Absolutely right!!!good
    4. +2
      14 February 2013 09: 29
      This little British muskrat declared at the time that 15 million people should live in Russia. Her followers on the mat then croaked from the stands about the world value of Siberia with a hint that it would not be bad to share ...
      The best way to send impudent Saxons to the forest is to beat, and to beat them with a stick. Why don't we sponsor IRA fighters ... or Indians from some Montana .... and immediately stop gurgling about freedom and self-determination.
      1. +2
        14 February 2013 09: 40
        Quote: Sakhalininets
        This little British muskrat declared at the time that 15 million people should live in Russia.
        Sergey, but it’s also going to the same ... When I was drafted into the army in our city there were officially about one and a half million people ... Now a little more than a million. And in the region it has become a million less ... That’s called served in the armed forces ... And the children seem to have mothers with strollers, and the population of Kazakhstan is ... fellow
        1. +6
          14 February 2013 09: 49
          Quote: older
          Now a little more than a million. And in the region it has become a million less ..
          This is observed throughout Russia. I am from Tula. And now I live in the Urals, but I will have to go to Vladivostok to build. In the early 80s, 680 people lived in the city of Tula, barely reaching 000 now, and what does Tula separate from Russia? Siberia deprived of resources and not developing? And the construction in Vladivostok for the APEC summit, and the World Cup including in Yekaterinburg, and the Novosibirsk Academgorodok, and many high-tech factories in Siberia? But could Siberia raise alone what has a large country done there? And how many days will Siberia be independent if it separates from Russia?
          1. 0
            14 February 2013 09: 58
            Quote: ATATA
            This is observed throughout Russia. I am from Tula.
            I don’t know your region well. I constantly went to bathe from Moscow to the Oka, and to Tula too .. Believe me, what happened in most Siberian villages you had in the post-war period ...
            1. +3
              14 February 2013 11: 07
              Quote: older
              I don’t know your region badly. I constantly went swimming from Moscow to the Oka
              laughing
              Typical "Muskwich"
              I have a father from the Novosibirsk region. And I have often been there and can compare with my own eyes. Siberian villages and villages of central Russia, it is heaven and earth. You know that central Russia in rural areas has already died out by 90%.
              They hardly talk about it, but it’s true! There are 15 grandmothers and 1 alcoholic in the village. And it is in 90% of villages. At least so in the Tula region. Most of the fields are abandoned. Where there were powerful ruin livestock complexes! Used in agriculture 10-15%. There, as if the plague had passed. I see it with my own eyes. In the village of Ilyino, Leninsky district, Tula region, a Vietnamese collective farm came, restored farms and plowed. And the locals are gone, as the mammoths became extinct. This happened in the period from 1986 to n.a.s. time before my eyes. And you tell me Siberia is deprived ?!
              And Oka, what? This is a resort. Do you know this?
              Quote: older
              There are institutes, there are universities, there is industry, there are resources .... But any of the Siberians will tell you, all this is controlled by Muscovites or Pitters. Local workers are only hired.

              And such as you, with your arguments about the deprivation of Sibiryakov, I think there are provocateurs who lay the foundation for separatism.
              1. +2
                14 February 2013 11: 23
                Quote: ATATA
                Typical "Muskwich"
                I’ve already moved to Omsk for two years feel And the Siberian villages need to look a little further 50km from the city ... Up to this distance they go to the city to work laughing People like me are not afraid to talk about the problem, and do not tear the vest on the chest after the fight ... We must fight in battle ...
                and we don’t need to tell about the ruins .. everything’s so ...
                1. 0
                  14 February 2013 11: 26
                  "And the Siberian villages should be looked a little further 50 km from the city."
                  I watched the village of Kolybelka, Krasnozersky district, Novosibirsk region. If I’m not mistaken, 200 km from Novosib.
                2. +2
                  14 February 2013 11: 38
                  Yes, there are not so many ruins in Siberia, life in the village is certainly not sugar (and when was it different?), But they live, they keep cattle, they work for large farmers. I eat a lot of meat, but I don’t take it in the store.
                  1. +1
                    14 February 2013 11: 44
                    .
                    Quote: Irkutsk
                    Yes, not so many ruins in Siberia,

                    So I wrote the same thing. Ruins in central Russia.
                    1. 0
                      14 February 2013 11: 54
                      It’s just that the density of population and production is greater, therefore more noticeable. Those that do not need steel (read unprofitable) have turned into ruins. Now no one will work at a loss, this is not a planned socialist economy. You don’t go hungry, don’t go to the castoffs. You can certainly say that we do not use our own, but then an objection means it is cheaper to buy someone else's than to do our own. The market however.
          2. anomalocaris
            0
            14 February 2013 16: 54
            What are these "high-tech" construction sites? Announce the entire list. Potemkin villages are not of interest.
            1. anomalocaris
              0
              15 February 2013 14: 29
              I myself have put a lot of disadvantages, announce the entire list of fucking high-tech industries built over the Urals in the past 10 years.
        2. 0
          14 February 2013 11: 47
          In the Kurgan region, as well as in your Omsk (I often visit you), this "Kazakhstanization" is very noticeable, because a huge number of Kurgan residents in the north earn money, there is no work here and there is no one to collect BMD-4 either !!!
          1. Marek Rozny
            -2
            14 February 2013 17: 47
            Quote: kostella85
            In the Kurgan region, as well as in your Omsk (I often visit you), this "Kazakhstanization" is very noticeable, because a huge number of Kurgan residents in the north earn money, there is no work here and there is no one to collect BMD-4 either !!!

            I was also in the Kurgan region and in the Kurgan itself. I can confirm that I sat in this area in a terrible state. And since I was often in work in the Kostanay region of Kazakhstan, I note one thing - in the 90s, Kostanays massively moved to neighboring Chelyabinsk and Kurgan. And now, not only has the outflow from there stopped, but vice versa - neighboring Russians are going to work in the Kostanay region.
            1. +1
              14 February 2013 18: 19
              There are doubts about "work going" to Kostanay ..............., but that the departure from Kostanay and Petropavlovsk, if not stopped, then noticeably decreased (both Russians and Kazakhs) is a fact ! Can not argue.
              But they go to Kazakhstan to get half the Kurgan for vodka, since it’s not far - 100 kilometers to the border, and vodka (and normal) is 2-2,5 times cheaper ............ laughing ... HERE drinks ..
              1. Marek Rozny
                +2
                14 February 2013 18: 36
                Now many enterprises are opening in Kostanay, even car factories have opened) And they even go to work from Ukraine (there are still a few of them, they work illegally, mostly Ukrainians work in agriculture, they come to sow and harvest).
                And as for vodka - this is in all border regions)))) And Omsk and Orenburg residents are filled with Kazakhstan vodka in full when they come to KZ) And many villages generally live only in smuggling) The fact is that even with the creation of the TS, Russia does not let Kazakh vodka (obstacles with licensing; although there are a lot of Russian vodka in the KZ), they are secretly transporting it. Vodka is really good and cheap. But you have better beer than ours) Our beer generally sucks.
                1. 0
                  14 February 2013 20: 09
                  About beer, that's for sure !!!! Muscovites even order that brought a couple of bottles !!! good laughing By the way, about the seals: we often go through the passage near Presnogorkovka (KZ), but I don’t notice any special seals there, the vodka or the so-called "cognac" was a Kazakh brand (which is not on the territory of the Russian Federation) ...
                  But guest workers (mainly Uzbeks) there are generally rzhachny crossing the border: in Russia for 5km. there is a car they get in there and passport control pass Kazakhstan stamps will be delivered and they will go to Nazat (emigrants are more than 3 months old; they cannot be in the Russian Federation)! laughing Such a taxi costs 1000 rubles per person (in VAZ-2106 at a time 10 people are included). Awesome business !!!!
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    +1
                    14 February 2013 20: 27
                    You can now bring an individual in peace. But the legal entity to import and sell Kazakh alcohol in stores - no way. Moscow does not give our firms any certificate. Clear business - the lobby of Russian producers, which simply can not stand the competition in stores with Kazakh vodka. This question, by the way, is very serious in fact; it is already being raised at the level of the relevant ministries and business associations.
    5. donchepano
      0
      14 February 2013 12: 46
      Quote: Dinver

      Thatcher openly stated that Siberia does not belong to Russia by right,

      HER “worthy” students in Siberia are still muddying the waters and preparing for separation ..
      By the way, some of them with dual citizenship
    6. 0
      14 February 2013 13: 25
      “I believe that all the data that we have speaks openly: resources are running out. Starting with oil. But the rest will also run out over the foreseeable future. And we - I’m talking about almost the entire world community - are absolutely not yet ready for Our civilization is based on the consumption of non-renewable resources. And when they run out, there will be panic, tragedy. And the greatest temptation will, I believe, use force to seize resources where they are. So, in short, there will be war. By the way, they are already preparing for it in America, in China, in other countries. But most people do not know about it. "(Giulietto Chiesa)

      And here is what another lady from the USA said. "What kind of world justice can we talk about when such a rich territory as Siberia belongs to one country?" Ms. Albright said this more than two years ago in an interview with the analytical program Postscriptum (TVC), but they realized it only now, when they realized that this was not the delirium of an out-of-mind grandmother, but a military-political strategy of the United States.
    7. +1
      14 February 2013 21: 52
      read "Crimea Island"
      it is precisely there that they speak of the creation of a new nation and the attitude of this nation towards the Russians.
      brilliant thing.
      makes you think a lot.
  2. lechatormosis
    +3
    14 February 2013 08: 31
    photo from my city NOVOSIBIRSK.
    Honestly, I learned from separatism in our city from this article - I don’t know who of the intelligentsia is talking about this, but for sure THESE GUYS ARE SICK ON THE HEAD (do not believe any nonsense)
    1. +1
      14 February 2013 08: 36
      Quote: lehatormoz
      but for sure THESE GUYS ARE SICK ON THE HEAD


      Yes, no, they’re not sick, they are most likely agents of influence and get paid in the west. Another thing is that they have no concepts of honor and conscience, I can’t argue here ...
      1. +1
        14 February 2013 09: 17
        I’ll support it, I myself lived in Nizhnevartovsk for a long time, now I live in Tyumen, I often went and go to Khanty - Mansiysk, Surgut, Nyagan, Nefteyugansk, Kogalym and others. Nowhere have I even heard a hint of such or seen. People are busy with work, they are not up to stupid things.
        1. +1
          14 February 2013 09: 43
          Quote: Averias
          I will support, I myself lived in Nizhnevartovsk for a long time, now I live in Tyumen, I often went and go to Khanty - Mansiysk, Surgut, Nyagan, Nefteyugansk, Kogalym and others
          And you come to Omsk ... When I was in Tyumen last summer I didn’t recognize the city at all ... It’s a completely unfamiliar modern city, just a small one for now ... But here we have .. The salary in 7-10 thousand is the norm ... 20-millionaire, and more aligarch ...
      2. +3
        14 February 2013 09: 19
        Quote: Dinver
        they are most likely agents of influence and get paid in the west.
        What the hell are the agents? Don’t tell bullshit ... The students have nothing to do and the Internet has seen enough, they’re standing there ... It's like a stop boor ... Gather in a crowd and scoff at the carriers until the guys come and knock on stupid heads .. . laughing
        1. Hon
          0
          14 February 2013 10: 09
          Quote: older
          until the guys arrive and taunt the dumb heads ...

          They are usually a crowd of about 20 people, and the cops do not touch them because they are "OUR"
          1. +1
            14 February 2013 10: 31
            Quote: Hon
            They are usually a crowd of about 20 people, and the cops do not touch them because they are "OUR
            We also appeared until we ran into a lawyer with connections ... They packed the police with 15 days of arrest by court order and also paid compensation for the damaged car to 22000 ... How cut off ... laughing
            1. Hon
              0
              14 February 2013 13: 07
              What is allowed to Jupiter is not allowed to the bull. In Moscow, they constantly have clashes with packed lawyers, and with the wives of Chechen ministers, and have not packed anyone yet.
        2. +2
          14 February 2013 10: 16
          Quote: older
          The students have nothing to do and the Internet has seen enough, so they stand ... It's like a stop boor ... Gather in a crowd and scoff at the carriers until the guys arrive and knock on dumb heads

          lol And you can’t argue ... On the head I myself saw how they knocked ....
        3. +1
          14 February 2013 10: 29
          Quote: older
          What the hell are the agents? Don’t tell bullshit ... The students have nothing to do and the Internet has seen enough, they’re standing there ... It's like a stop boor ... Gather in a crowd and scoff at the carriers until the guys come and knock on stupid heads .. .

          Well, you're talking about the "mass" but do not forget that every mass has leaders.
    2. Bubo
      +1
      14 February 2013 09: 06
      I will support it myself from Kemerovo. In general, I have not heard of any talks about "independent Siberia."
      In addition, if even following the example of the United States, then I am completely sad to do, because I am a representative of indigenous national minorities. The prospect of the fate of the American indigenous people, the Indians, attracts me little.
      1. Marek Rozny
        +2
        14 February 2013 17: 53
        Quote: Bubo
        I will support it myself from Kemerovo. In general, I have not heard of any talks about "independent Siberia."

        I met with the Tyumen in Moscow - indeed, I did not hear separatist thoughts from them at all. But in Kemerovo, the manager is good, he does not allow the region to bend.
        By the way, about the "indigenous minorities". There were several people in the Tyumen group with Kazakh surnames, but Russian names. They said that they were Russians by passport, although their fathers and grandfathers were Kazakhs) They laughed a lot on this topic with them - they say, Kazakhs from Russian Siberia and from Kazakhstan met far from their homeland in Moscow)
        1. Marek Rozny
          +1
          14 February 2013 21: 43
          ugh, damn it, I just noticed that instead of "Kemerovo" I wrote "Tyumen")))
    3. 0
      14 February 2013 09: 17
      Quote: lehatormoz
      SURE THESE GUYS ARE SICK ON THE HEAD (don't believe all sorts of nonsense)
      In this form, as in the photo I agree. But I often hear conversations in Omsk about separation and not from the boys, alas ...
      1. 0
        14 February 2013 14: 18
        Quote: older
        Omsk about separation, I often hear and not from the boys
        I live a little to the north, I haven’t seen a jerk like that, but I haven’t heard it, do you accidentally have Inglings producing them there?
    4. Soldier
      +1
      14 February 2013 09: 22
      Yeah, Novosib, Lenin Square. Only we have these, frostbitten, really
  3. 0
    14 February 2013 08: 35
    From the history of remember that unequal manners passed over 50 years after the accession of Siberia to Russia. Further, she was on an equal footing, with established bilateral relations
  4. +2
    14 February 2013 08: 36
    choke ... and immediately.
    1. +3
      14 February 2013 08: 44
      dark_65 (1)
      choke ... and immediately.

      Yes, there is no one to choke :)) Neither in Siberia, nor in the Far East.
      In the 90s, a couple of people appeared who, in line with pluralism, were broadcast on TV or in newspapers. They did not go in any way. And, in personal communication, these non-comrades caused a miserable feeling.
      They perished themselves.
      Finally, raising this topic is harmful. It would not be necessary to give significance to the absent process.
      1. +2
        14 February 2013 09: 24
        Quote: BigRiver
        Yes, there is no one to choke :)) Neither in Siberia, nor in the Far East.
        Especially when you consider that the population of Siberia and the Far East is constantly decreasing .. People are fleeing to Russia ... According to the latest census, there are 12 million people left over the entire territory of the Urals, Siberia and Far East
        1. 0
          14 February 2013 20: 28
          Quote: older
          12 million people
          Hmmm, is it only Rusichs, or did they count with the indigenous people ??? hi
    2. +6
      14 February 2013 09: 21
      Quote: dark_65
      choke ... and immediately.
      Urya! Who is it to strangle? Boys who are standing in order to have a good time? You need to create the conditions for better life in Siberia or at least the same as in Russia .. And then we will train them with Bosko ...
      1. Hon
        0
        14 February 2013 10: 13
        Come to the Saratov region and compare, better or worse.
      2. +1
        14 February 2013 13: 04
        Sergey, in "10". More action, less words. All sane people understand that all power is in unity. The water is muddied also by the visitors from the UK, SA Chinese. And more. The champions of "independence" shouted that there would be enough food for everyone. So what? Tore off from the "boobs" and now for 12 years we cannot cure "mastitis" ...
  5. Alexey Prikazchikov
    +4
    14 February 2013 08: 39
    These conversations would not exist if Maskvabad invested even a little in the development of our region, and not stupidly pumped out loot and resources.
    1. 0
      14 February 2013 08: 48
      Alexey Prikazchikov (1)

      Do you live in the donor region?
      And what is this subject of the Russian Federation? Edge, area?
      1. Alexey Prikazchikov
        0
        14 February 2013 08: 55
        I am in Krasnoyarsk, for the first time I heard about this shit from my teacher in Russian history. I myself naturally do not support the department.
    2. +2
      14 February 2013 09: 25
      Quote: Alexey Prikazchikov
      These conversations would not exist if Maskvabad invested even a little in the development of our region, and not stupidly pumped out loot and resources.
      laughing Alexei, who owns supermarkets? Factories? They invest ...
      1. Alexey Prikazchikov
        +6
        14 February 2013 10: 07
        To be honest, it would be better if the state had strategic enterprises. I am not opposed to private capital owned by large enterprises, but what was left of the USSR was state-owned and should have remained. And then a lot of Deripaska our aluminum plant developed and? That's what the private owner himself, if necessary, built with the help of the state, even if he owns it. Although the tanks do it, the new plant will be, but everything else ... And for example, how did this crap in the Sayano-Shushenskaya Hydroelectric Power Station end? There are things that private owners can never give! And we have long owned Moscow factories and supermarkets. Moreover, our retailers have long squeezed the feds.
        1. +1
          14 February 2013 10: 18
          Quote: Alexey Prikazchikov
          it would be better if the state had start-up enterprises
          That's the problem of Siberia .. They are the majority of the state .. Only until last year, what salaries were there? Until Rogozin came?
          1. Alexey Prikazchikov
            0
            14 February 2013 10: 48
            I don’t know how it is on the others, everything was normal before Rogozin. But the fact that Deripaska is doing a little bitch with an aluminum plant does not go into any gates.
  6. 0
    14 February 2013 08: 45
    Separatism is everywhere.
    Here we have an independent Voronezh drew. A purely subsidized region. More than half of the arable land is not cultivated. There is a way out of the impasse - to build several mines and mining and processing enterprises. New taxes will lift the region out of the pit
    In the war, the whole country fought for Voronezh. Now they are being asked, share both the Urals and Siberians with their wealth - they do not want. Their hut with the edge
    1. Bubo
      +6
      14 February 2013 09: 19
      And you would not go, my friend ... where to go further.
      As a native of Siberia, I’ll tell you that if it’s not Russian, I probably would still have been furs, along with pine nuts, somewhere in the fishing camp with my mother Shorka (people in the south of the Kemerovo region), and my father (from the old Mongolian, long Russified family) in the taiga would hunt to feed the family. And thanks to the Russians I live in an intensively developing region with a high level of urbanization (21 cities in the region). Yes, there are problems like everywhere else on the periphery in the country, but even with this in mind, things are better with us than in the Urals (west) peripheral cities.
      So, Russian "colonization", and for me this is the development - this is the best that could happen to Siberia, and I am grateful to the Russians for this.

      Regards, Sibirits.
    2. 0
      14 February 2013 10: 12
      You forget that the new mining and processing complex and the mines are heavily subsnap .... will ruin the ecology of the region. But the non-use of all arable land is strange. I was there in 2011 in August, wound between Pavlovsk and Voronezh, it seemed that everything was seeded by 90%, and the equipment in the fields was imported. Voronezh itself made an impression of a beautiful, clean city. Many new buildings, only the roads are not very.
      1. -2
        14 February 2013 13: 52
        Quote: fzr1000
        You forget that the new mining and processing complex and the mines are heavily subsnap .... will spoil the ecology of the region.

        How can you say this if no studies and examinations have been conducted. There are no projects.
        Explain to me your logic? I do not want? I don’t care about the problems of people from neighboring regions? Is my hut on the edge? But repair me roads ....! And cover the budget deficit from the total budget.
        Here is the real separatism.
        In Novosibirsk, a couple of students "blew" something and immediately separatism, and here thousands of people take to the streets. Is that okay, are they not separatists?
        1. 0
          14 February 2013 14: 46
          Why expertise? And you did not go through the basics of metallurgical production at school or at the institute? I passed. There are harmful mining and production and very harmful mining and production. Nickel production is one of the most harmful. And near Voronezh they plan to mine and produce it. And they will do it. Ordinary people are not asked. By the way, Khopersky Reserve is also located there.
          I am not from Voronezh and not from neighboring regions.
          1. -2
            14 February 2013 15: 07
            Let's not lie. The point is not in nickel, but in terry separatism. Unwillingness to share wealth with other regions

            Quote: fzr1000
            Nickel production

            Production will be in a completely different region.

            Quote: fzr1000
            Ordinary people are not asked.

            What to ask ordinary people, if it is not yet known whether nickel is there or not. They will conduct geological exploration. Determine the possible locations of the mine. Then they will conduct various examinations. Who needs it - they will pay compensation.

            Quote: fzr1000
            By the way, Khopersky Reserve is also located there.

            So triple control will be
            1. 0
              14 February 2013 16: 06
              I propose to close the discussion. If only because the reserves were explored during the Soviet Union and, nevertheless, the state did not begin to destroy the region, because I know from my own experience what iron ore is and therefore I can imagine what ore mining is. And even if the production is in another region, this is little comfort. About the desire to share - do not share, I do not know. Triple control or double control will probably give something, I don’t know. I bow out. hi
              1. 0
                15 February 2013 13: 09
                In our country, all deposits were discovered during the Soviet era. There were other deposits in the Urals, they dried up. Remaining processing capacities must be loaded.
                The point is not that someone was hurt or will suffer from ore mining.
                People in Voronezh simply do not want to be touched. They are used to the fact that others work for them. Others arm the army, others build a fleet, others fight pollution of nature.
  7. +4
    14 February 2013 08: 48
    "And then Ostap suffered." What does the myth about the existence of separate nations - Ukrainians and Belarusians, as well as their states mean !? People live for themselves and do not know that they, it turns out, are a myth! Some kind of matrix ...
    1. Frigate
      +2
      14 February 2013 09: 19
      Quote: Nomad

      "And then Ostap suffered." What does the myth about the existence of separate nations - Ukrainians and Belarusians, as well as their states mean !? People live for themselves and do not know that they, it turns out, are a myth! Some kind of matrix ...

      That's it, countryman. Zolotarev, of course, is also good, but the authors are good, too, according to one psycho-patient from the Region, to judge all the people who live there and say that the Novosibirsk people (sorry in advance) Are not faithful to Moscow and want everything their own.

      You can also say that all Muscovites are Nazi thugs, or all Omsk sworn Akhinevichs, or that St. Petersburg are all Slavolyuboslavs wassat
      1. Marek Rozny
        +2
        14 February 2013 18: 01
        I don’t believe in separating Siberia from the rest of Russia. I don’t understand how the inhabitants of this region can talk about this. But nevertheless, I heard such thoughts from them more than once or twice. It’s just that Siberia really wants to have a clear, more or less fair policy from Moscow. Siberia and several other regions actually feed the entire budget of the Russian Federation, but in return receive nothing adequate. Moscow needs much better care for Siberia. Then there will be no offended talk of separatism.
        In Western Kazakhstan, some hotheads can also sometimes say that "Atyrau feeds the entire KZh, and Astana leaves too little money in the region." But our system is slowly being altered, the regions will gain more independence in terms of resolving their own issues, and will also have more rights to the budget flow. And in Russia there is a different scheme and no changes are expected.
  8. 0
    14 February 2013 08: 51
    venal pseudo-intelligentsia and students who have no experience, but are sick with justice - this, it seems, is also the whole support of the independent people. you can bet: how quickly they will be pushed out of the feeders in case of a successful coup and what kind of people will successfully be at the helm
  9. Ash
    Ash
    +6
    14 February 2013 09: 26
    Against the background of the fact that there cannot be any separation of Siberia from Russia, two facts should nevertheless be recognized, arising from one another:
    a) the authorities are more concerned about how to rip more money from the regions, leaving crumbs in the regional budgets;
    b) living standards in Moscow and Siberia are very different from each other, almost all niches that are more or less profitable for business are immediately occupied by visitors from the capital.
    So the question of suppressing separatist sentiments should not be reduced to simply identifying and punishing the rebels. Many people are really angry and not without reason. They need to delve into their needs.
    1. +7
      14 February 2013 09: 49
      I live in the Irkutsk region. Donor region. From time to time infa pops up that more than 60% of taxes go to "non-rubber". In the region there are oil, gas, 3 hydroelectric power stations, the 4th is being completed together with the Krasnoyarsk Territory, an aircraft plant, an oil refinery, a gas chemical complex, to hell with other plants. In my city there are hydroelectric power plants, the plant of RUSAL, Mechel, IlimPalma and other factories (the city is constantly among the 10 worst ecologically in Russia). Z. p. with the northern less than in the western regions without them. More salary only from oilmen. The attitude of the owners kakby siphon more money .. And after that you do not want the development of separatism in the regions.
      PS I myself do not want to separate from Russia, I consider myself Russian and I hope that everything is said, but when when does the government begin to think with its head?
      1. Ash
        Ash
        +6
        14 February 2013 09: 54
        The fact of the matter is that I myself live in Irkutsk. In this forum, many say that the ideas of separatism are sown in the minds of people by Western agents. Then let these comrades answer me a simple question. Where is the trace of the influence of Western special services, when a resident of the city of Baikalsk with a higher education 50 years old sees how the plant was closed, to which at one time the state sent him to work according to distribution from the European part of Russia, and now they tell him: "Live, man, as you know, you have no more work "After that, this person is unlikely to be imbued with a feeling of deep love for those people who, sitting in Moscow on salaries equal to his annual income, with one stroke of the pen signed a hunger sentence for him and his family. And then he looks like these people build a puzzled face and say: "Yes, the workers of the closed BPPM will not remain without work. We think about them day and night and blah blah blah ..."
        1. +4
          14 February 2013 10: 13
          I was also cut 2 years ago ... but I was young enough to find work ...
          During the search for a new one, he worked at the Aluminum Plant (2nd largest in Russia) .. People in the 80s and even in the 90s didn’t get very bad at the plant, but in the late 90s Rusal bought it and that’s it .. There is no hardware update, s.p. average in the city (despite the fact that production is very harmful), but Rusal is one of the largest aluminum producers in the world (something about 10% - if memory serves).
          1. 0
            17 February 2013 08: 34
            Kubatai,
            Gentlemen conduct business by the year 17, will we again get rid of the gentlemen?
        2. +1
          14 February 2013 13: 56
          more neighbor.
          so far the idea of ​​an "independent separate Siberia" is only in the heads of individual intellectuals. but if the social policy of the state does not change, then this idea can settle in the heads of many people. among them there are also "hot heads" and if Siberia flares up, then Chechnya will seem like a children's matinee in the younger group of nurseries.
      2. 0
        14 February 2013 12: 00
        Fully Supported Kubatai Yes
      3. 0
        14 February 2013 13: 52
        fraternal, neighbor?
        1. 0
          15 February 2013 03: 47
          Yes, of course.
  10. Alikovo
    +1
    14 February 2013 09: 36
    the West wants to chop off the Caucasus, Heb. north, siberia, dal.vostok. those who advocate separation from Russia, they sold out to the west.
  11. 0
    14 February 2013 09: 48
    and where the FSB looks at us. It doesn’t care at all about the state’s safety. It would be a long time to find out where the legs are growing, but to tear it to the vine
  12. vladsolo56
    +1
    14 February 2013 09: 50
    The only thing that begs it here: Fools are not sowed, neither plow, they are born, the ideas of separatism are not born in order to make the life of ordinary people better, as history proves. These ideas are driven into the heads of fools with only one goal, to seize power in the region and become its sole owner. But a bunch of fools is needed in order to raise this idea to develop and implement.
  13. fenix57
    +1
    14 February 2013 09: 51
    The ideology of the new “cold war” by Allen Dulles is known, designed to establish control over our country by decomposing the population with distorted concepts of morality, - [i] to achieve the degradation of the people, inciting internal strife, nationalism, separatism and achieving the collapse of a multinational state... On December 14, 1947, in the United States, the SNB-4 / A directive assigned the CIA the responsibility to conduct a "psychological war" against the USSR.a long time ago, and so it seems. hi
  14. +1
    14 February 2013 10: 05
    I have been to Buryatia on business. Of course, there are plenty of Chinese there. The timber is taken out in trains. Where can ordinary Russian entrepreneurs keep up with them? I think that if Siberia suddenly decides to secede in the morning, then by the evening it will be divided between Japan and China. And the Siberians will have a hard time. These nations will not be "friends" with any local.
    1. Ash
      Ash
      +4
      14 February 2013 10: 15
      Yes, this is a good reason for Muscovites to continue to download loot from the regions and spoil them from a high bell tower!
      1. -6
        14 February 2013 11: 15
        Is there a good reason for you to refer to sukpadlmoskvichy to justify your situation? Maybe the chest opens a lot easier?
        In the garden of elderberry, in Kiev, uncle.
        Who is shitting on you? Do not forget that now “Muscovite” is a very loose concept. How many people live now from all over the CIS, other than Russia, in Moscow? And there is no need to remember the era of the USSR. It was another matter there.
      2. 0
        14 February 2013 12: 07
        You can give me any minuses - not in kindergarten. The last "Muskvich" ruling Russia was Peter 1. It's funny.

        While we will share and blame Muscovites, Siberians, Tula, Tatars for our troubles ... further down the list, the danger of a parade of sovereignty remains.
        1. +2
          14 February 2013 13: 59
          for many, "Muscovite" is not a place of residence but a way of life - I am the most important, everyone is afraid to fall, I have a dad .......
          1. 0
            14 February 2013 14: 17
            I was born in Moscow. What am I going to do now ....?
            1. -1
              14 February 2013 16: 13
              Lucky ................ laughing
              1. +1
                14 February 2013 18: 22
                Yeah, very ...feel
  15. Svarog
    +3
    14 February 2013 10: 22
    Explain to me how regions producing resources can be subsidized? But only now Kuzbass is beginning to reach a zero balance .. Where else have you seen this, except Africa? The problem is that the legal address of almost all companies in Western Siberia (and indeed Siberia in general) is located in Moscow. All taxes are paid there. And then we turn into a subsidized region. More recently, the government has been talking about the abolition of allowances for the northern regions - for example, winters have become warmer. I don't give a damn, I work for a private trader, but all civil servants - mainly teachers, teachers and doctors - have lost a lot (this is with their salaries). It is "good" that frosts almost immediately hit and froze several villages, just when we had "big bosses" from Moscow. These conversations have stopped.
    I have only one question - when enterprises will pay taxes at their physical address, why is there still no such law? You look and there will not be such a hard inflection in Muscovy and the rest of the country.
    1. +2
      14 February 2013 12: 06
      Quote: Svarog
      The problem is that the legal address of almost all companies in western Siberia (and indeed Siberia in general) is located in Moscow.

      And GAZPROM is a national treasure, registered in St. Petersburg. Probably not in Urengoy produces gas, and in Len. area! laughing
  16. Natalia
    +2
    14 February 2013 10: 24
    If in Siberia there really is nothing like that, good. But vigilance is not necessary to lose. Everything can appear out of the blue.
    How Americans do it, cling to any even the most far-fetched fact and dissolve it into the masses (if there are no heroes you need to come up with) ..... let’s remember with you how the Orange Revolution took place in Ukraine and what the consequences are, the heroization of the Nazis, the famine and all such .... that is, what happened to a free country imposed a false cult, created idols.

    And the same forces can create something inside our country. They will come up with false heroes, create a legend that Siberia has all the prerequisites for self-determination ....

    And the individuals who call for this (separatism) most often pursue completely different goals (to get money for work and dump in the USA), and there are a lot of examples of such personalities (Udaltsov, Navalny, Kasyanov, Nemtsov, etc.), that is, they the task is to agitate the situation in the country, and then live with your family somewhere in Monaco.

    So such forces were and will be, while there are our enemies. It is simply necessary that the people themselves can calculate such threats and stop them during them. And then we will be invincible united.
  17. Skavron
    +1
    14 February 2013 10: 57
    well and nonsense ... there is nothing more to say negative negative fool
    I - Ukrainian - myth ... afftor burns
    I probably dream about myself
  18. radar75
    +1
    14 February 2013 11: 08
    Is Ukrainians a myth? Bullshit. Does the Russian world give rest? If itches, go wash.
    With such thoughts it is impossible to build not only alliances with neighbors, but also normal relations.
    Think for yourself, you will be friends with a person who says that you, as a person, do not exist. You belong to some small and insignificant, underdeveloped branch of another people.
    1. +2
      14 February 2013 11: 32
      Quote: radar75

      Is Ukrainians a myth? Bullshit. Does the Russian world give rest? If itches, go wash.

      If people are hammered into their heads that they are elves, they will write the nationality "ELF" in the column.
      But I forgot, sorry to argue with you is useless.
    2. mladenec
      0
      14 February 2013 12: 54
      You belong to some small and insignificant, underdeveloped branch of another people.

      0___0 Where did you hear that? Let me guess you come up with yourself !!!! Ukrainians are FULL RUSSIANs who simply live in a certain territory, and you are probably one of those people who think that all sorts of nasty things are talking about them behind their backs?
      Any disconnection leads to weakness, a person who is not aware of this simply a very small intellectual level !!!!
    3. Wartruk
      +1
      14 February 2013 18: 21
      Is Ukrainians a myth? Bullshit.

      This may not be about that. Science has proven that the genetic code of Russian and Ukrainian is identical. Culture is another question.

      And on the topic, I can say this. Why in (in) Ukraine is gas fired, but in Russia (Novosibirsk, Kemerovo region, for example) not?
      Someone will say, duck, why in Kuzbass there is gas, in the same place in bulk coal. So no one drowns in coal, so that it remains not very high quality. And the most valuable, black, coke for export.
  19. nchyornyj
    -1
    14 February 2013 11: 23
    And how do you like this? .. http://news2.ru/story/362249/ And comments ...
    1. 0
      14 February 2013 12: 53
      Yes, it all resembles the same thing when people leave for where they think it’s better, instead of solving their problems locally.

      As if the Finns were presenting everything on a silver platter.
      1. nchyornyj
        +1
        14 February 2013 13: 25
        Yes, they will not present of course ... This is probably out of despair ... In protest. But the roots are the same. Dissatisfaction with the current state of things.
  20. UltimaVV
    0
    14 February 2013 11: 57
    How strange everything. Explain to me this "Moscow eats all resources"
  21. 0
    14 February 2013 13: 40
    And in Buryatia, and not only there, I really do not like that young people, who are still 16, speak only obscenities. Regardless of gender. Yet before, somehow girls, in general, as a last resort inserted a salty word. Yes, and the boys too. Now, some kind of nightmare. Moreover, he was in Ukraine in 2005, on the western border, there is no such thing among the people. In the hearts they can say, but do not talk on it constantly. All this testifies to the decline of spirituality, and when spirituality falls, talking about the rise of the country is still not easy to protect with such a population. I don’t know how to correctly and accurately say, but all these are links of one chain. It is necessary that the country's government was not indifferent to its population. Especially old and young. While this is not, and people themselves decide who can these issues.
  22. +1
    14 February 2013 13: 44
    Quote: Svarog
    I have only one question - when enterprises will pay taxes at their physical address, why is there still no such law? You look and there will not be such a hard inflection in Muscovy and the rest of the country.


    not when, for then Moscow will be a beggar

    Moscow region almost doesn’t produce anything compared to Siberia
    1. +1
      14 February 2013 14: 11
      Well, not tired of writing about the impoverished Moscow? And banks, and representative offices of Western firms, just Moscow firms, and retail chains, and services, and taxes and fines from the population? I would only be glad if Moscow became impoverished.
  23. tomich
    +1
    14 February 2013 14: 23
    Another pro-Kremlin crap and not an article, according to the author of the State Department’s agents in Siberia, is apparently invisible, and the Russian people are stupid who are not capable of self-determination and Siberia will necessarily capture the United States or China.
    Before writing such articles, one must live in Siberia, and not in Central Russia. If we call the normal desire of the people to live humanly, and not the miserable handouts from Moscow of separatism, then this is disrespect for their own people
    1. -1
      14 February 2013 15: 39
      good Tomich is right in love!
  24. +3
    14 February 2013 14: 53
    A stupid little article, the author of which does not know, either historical or modern realities.
    1) The Narodniks were not liberals, and were not "Westernizers", and Herzen was not a Narodnik. The author constantly confuses these two completely different anti-monarchist ideologies.
    2) The “West” as a whole does not exist. The “West” is both Marx and Hitler and hippies and much more. You cannot lump everything together.
    3) The separatism of Siberia in 1917 was caused not by the machinations of evil separatists, but by the collapse of the empire while maintaining private property. Naturally, the owners began to incline towards separatism, exactly the same thing happened when private property was introduced during perestroika, but the process was stopped because the collapse of the overflowing nuclear weapons of Russia the moment was not beneficial to anyone.
    4) It is impossible to compare Ukrainians with the inhabitants of Siberia. In the case of Ukraine, ethno-social differences were already by 1917, in the case of the inhabitants of Siberia (except for indigenous peoples) no.
    5) Now for Siberia and the Far East, the Chinese factor is much more important than the "western." It is obvious that with the disintegration of Russia, the Far East, and possibly Eastern Siberia, will go to the PRC.
    6) The reasons for separatism in Siberia now lie not in the cunning of evil "liberals", but in that socio-economic policy led by the government. Low salaries, lack of work and social protection, a huge disproportion between the life of the "megalopolises" of Moscow and St. Petersburg and, for example, the life of Irkutsk and Chita - this is what gives rise to modern separatism
    And this must be fought.
    1. Avenger711
      +1
      14 February 2013 15: 39
      There are always differences between regions of one country inhabited by one people and cannot be considered as any significant arguments. In Little Russia, even the word "Ukrainian" did not know.
      1. Skavron
        +2
        14 February 2013 16: 10
        You can call me Little Russia, if this makes it easier for you laughing
        I will not be offended good
        1. 0
          15 February 2013 08: 51
          Quote: Skavron

          You can call me Little Russia, if this makes it easier for you
          I will not be offended
          Thank you!
          I feel better! hi
      2. 0
        14 February 2013 23: 06
        Quote: Avenger711

        There are always differences between regions of one country inhabited by one people and cannot be considered as any significant arguments. In Little Russia, even the word "Ukrainian" did not know

        Forgive me, have you read Nikolai Gogol? For some reason he was talking about Ukraine, and not about Little Russia. Maybe he was also an "agent of the State Department"? wink
        The situation with Ukraine is understandable - the causes of separatism in 1917 are similar to the Siberian ones.
        In a capitalist society, when the central government is eliminated, the owners strive to create their own hotbed of power, and the division of the country usually takes place along ethno-territorial borders. And Russia in 1917 was already a capital country. The truth with an archaic estate-monarchist system of government.
        The difference with Siberia is that in Ukraine ethnosocial differences were quite large, and the propaganda of separatism went further than in Siberia.
        Therefore, the Bolsheviks defeating separatism (by the way in a very beautiful way) made Ukraine a separate republic, but not Siberia.
  25. +5
    14 February 2013 16: 15
    I live in a town near Krasnoyarsk, I haven’t heard any talk about separation from Russia, but I have heard that it’s necessary to put machine guns around Moscow with barbed wire and not to let anyone out to Russia, I also heard from young people.
    1. 0
      14 February 2013 19: 55
      Fence, put machine guns, take your budgets for yourself, and here it is, happiness. We must take it and make it so that everyone calms down. But......
      It is profitable for the local "elite" to nod at the Federals, they say there is underfunding, there is no money ... But in fact, everything is the same as everywhere else - they buy cars for themselves, at home, through controlled firms conduct all trade and economic activities, because they are not controlled locally. Therefore, while it will be so, nothing will change for ordinary people in Siberia and beyond.
      Simple examples for everyone are the APEC summit, the Olympics, housing and communal services reform, etc. The funding from the center was 100, and in some places 300%. So what? What is the result? Think about it, comrades.
      1. 0
        15 February 2013 02: 01
        Fence, put machine guns, take your budgets for yourself, and here it is, happiness. We must take it and make it so that everyone calms down
        They are not talking about the budget, many of them work in Krasnoyarsk, they say: “Muscovites have come in large numbers, bought up enterprises, firms, people are being cut, salaries are scanty all Moscow is saving money” that is what the conversation is about.
        1. 0
          15 February 2013 10: 02
          Once again, the "Muscovites" who have come to you for sure, including from the "come in large numbers" over the past 15-20 years to Moscow people, because it is not so easy to find a native Muscovite (who was already in the third generation in Moscow) now. I am 42 years old and only my children can be considered native Muscovites. Those. it turns out quite indiscriminately to blame everything on the "Muscovites". After all, people who have bought an apartment in Moscow relatively recently may turn out to be from the same regions where "people are cut, salaries are scanty, they save money in Moscow."

          Such a thought. smile
          1. 0
            15 February 2013 13: 44
            may turn out to be from the same regions where "people are cut, salaries are scanty, they save money for Moscow."
            Yes, I understand that all Muscovites are intellectuals from "Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears", and the "come in large numbers" are to blame for everything.
            1. 0
              15 February 2013 16: 32
              A strange conclusion from my words. In short, your neighbors, who once left for Moscow, can, having cut down the dough, in your native place become the masters of all the most "delicious". Their possible belonging to the intelligentsia can only be judged individually. Good luck.
  26. Wartruk
    +2
    14 February 2013 18: 33
    Father also told me. Here come the son out of the house and go in any direction. Go all day, don’t stop, everything is straight and straight. As the legs fail, get up, look around.
    This is the son - your homeland, here it ends. And everything else is Power.

    And I know many people who think the same. And who says that the problem is far-fetched, excuse me, he does not see beyond his nose.
    Just strong in us Siberians is faith in the tsar-priest, and we also understand that we cannot defeat Asian Basurmans alone.
  27. +3
    14 February 2013 18: 50
    If in Siberia they think that they are the outskirts, then what should the inhabitants of the Far East think of themselves? I see Siberia as the place where the real Russia was preserved, because the European part is becoming more and more like Moscow and St. Petersburg. Siberia is not a colony, but an integral part of Russia.
    1. mars6791
      -2
      15 February 2013 00: 16
      the European part of Russia is not Moscow and the Moscow region, and not even Siberia, and the Far East, this is poverty, dying villages, rampant drunkenness, life around large cities, and Siberia, and the Far East, these are shift workers, and the flow of drugs, the Volga region drinks, Siberia pricks, and this end is not visible.
  28. kukuruzo
    +3
    14 February 2013 20: 22
    I live in the Caucasus .. and watching the latest changes in society and in the world ... I can say that I somehow understand these people ... The Russian people are now at this stage, they need support, they need to feel again after all the humiliations a part of a great people ... with rich, great roots ... but this whole situation provokes discontent. The country has practically no production, the budget is due to extraction from the Siberian subsoil ... with which all the money goes to Moscow, and part of it in the Caucasus, where the Russian people are in crisis ... its number is very sharply reduced ... with all this, Siberia does not get anything .... who likes it, that they take yours from you, they give it to someone who hates you and you yourself are in dire need, losing your sons in coal mines ... separatism in this situation will only increase ... Thanks for the article
  29. von_Richten
    0
    14 February 2013 21: 08
    Regarding the inefficiency of regional management: which side to look at wink And on the same topic: today's Russian capitalism is aimed at pumping money out of everything that is possible (regardless of the region, etc.), I can give examples from the CHP serving the Chelyabinsk Metallurgical Plant: the General Electric generator is pre-war, Lend-Lease is still working (i.e. more efficient not purchased); the new Russian designed anyhow boiler and as if the boiler is constantly breaking, but it was the cheapest (they don’t want to buy a normal one).
  30. Ermolaich
    0
    14 February 2013 21: 22
    I could not help but speak out when there is a vivid example of a distortion of the essence of the movement of Siberian patriots, their ideas. With what fright did the author suddenly begin to convince us of a certain danger from love for his land? In the bogeyman of separatism, you can put on any sound idea to improve well-being and prosperity. And Siberia is really a special territory and our patriotism is of a special kind. And the Siberian character is just the result of adaptation and a survival factor ...
    Back in the middle of the XIX century. Governor-General of Western Siberia P.D. Gorchakov wrote: "It is indisputable that Siberians are proud of their homeland, to which are attached more internal inhabitants (that is, residents of Central Russia), that they value its abundance and convenience with excess." Siberian patriotism is of a special kind: just as a creator-master is proud of his work and is attached to it, so Siberians treat Siberia as their work created by the hands of dozens of generations. So that…
    A common thread in the writings of the “oblast” is the idea of ​​making the region “more convenient and attractive for life”. It was noted that in order to change its position, Siberian society should not ask for "good deeds", it should try to make life here not only bearable, but also "seductive."
    The ascetic work of the "oblast" contributed to the opening of the first Tomsk University in Siberia, the development of education, the creation of local history museums. Largely thanks to them, dozens of newspapers and magazines began to be published in the Siberian region. “Oblastniks” made a special contribution to the study of the history of Siberia, to ethnographic studies of the indigenous peoples of the region and Russian old-timers. The regional movement has become one of the catalysts for the design of a broad charity movement of merchants, entrepreneurs, ordinary bourgeois and peasants. Hospitals, shelters, schools, shelters for the poor, churches were built at charity funds.
    True oblasts never thought of themselves outside the Russian state and there was neither a conspiracy nor a pronounced revolutionism. For this, neither the Narodniks nor the Socialists loved the oblast. And that - before the abolition of serfdom in 1861, to the slogans "land to the peasants", to the class struggle, for the Siberians all this was indifferent. And as for the interethnic showdowns, it is still “not in honor” with us, because our region is a “melting pot of peoples”.
    Yes, the "US proclamation" is the only document (the authors have not yet been clarified) of extremist content. And the idea of ​​a “regional Duma” is not an idea of ​​forming a new statehood. And the fact that in 1918 KOMUCHI and “Duma” began to organize themselves on the ruins of the empire, didn’t it appear in the early 1990s? If there is a call to the weakening of the state, it’s good, then for Russia it all depends on the degree of Sovereignty. The coordination of the interests of the Center and the regions is today one of the painful problems of modern Russia. Russia is doomed to resolve this issue. Being a civilization of a limitrophic type.
    Of course, Soviet "proletarian internationalism" and the post-Soviet rejection of national traditions in the name of "unity of the human race, globalism - all these are" berries "of one field. And in our Siberia there are those that are “imprisoned” for destruction, not creation. But having lost our Small Homeland in the system of values, we are “profucing” Russia as a whole. Therefore, there are so many provocateurs who want to "pit" Moscow with the regions on the basis of such "fairy tales" ...
  31. Ermolaich
    +1
    14 February 2013 21: 44
    How much can weep about the "bitter fate" of Siberia! Do not whine or ask - I would like to remind some “guardians” of this for us (especially from the camp of advocates of the so-called democracy) ...
    At the beginning of the twentieth century. Siberia's share in the total area of ​​the Russian Empire reached 58%. The population of Siberia in this case was only 6% of the total number of inhabitants of a huge country. Many say that Sibir feeds Russia. Excuse me, why did you master the land? This is its value and mission for the country as a whole. I will not talk about oil, but still the XVII century. Siberian furs produced from 40 to 80% of the total national income of the Russian state.
    At all times, the region was the most dynamically developing region. As early as 1685, grain supplies ceased, and agriculture was created. The growth rate of sown area and grain harvest in Siberia has always been higher than the average Russian. So, by the twentieth century 100 per 84,9 inhabitants were sown here, and on average in Russia - 55,0 acres of arable land. If in the middle of the XIX century. in European Russia, grain yields were from "self-2,3" to "self-3,2", Siberian land was given from "self-4,2" to "self-10" or more. By 1917, Siberia (6% of the population of Russia) accounted for 17% of the gross grain harvest.
    In 1913, according to the number of cattle, the Russian Empire occupied the second place in the world after the USA - 190 million heads, of which 20% were Siberia. At the beginning of the twentieth century. up to 50% of all meat in Moscow was imported because of the Urals. In peasant farms in Siberia, up to 18% of all horses in Russia, 14% of sheep, 12% of pigs were bred (once again, we recall that 6% of the country's population was engaged in this).
    Minister of the Interior and Reformer P.A. Stolypin wrote: “Siberian oil production gives twice as much gold as the entire Siberian gold industry.” In 1910, the share of Siberian gold was 71% - i.e. 2,2 thousand pounds of 3,1 thousand pounds of all gold mined in Russia.
    The following data eloquently testify to labor productivity in Siberian industry: in 1908, Siberia's share in the total number of workers was only 1%, but they produced 3,5% of all industrial values ​​of the Russian Empire. By 1914, the share of industrial production in Siberia was 22%. In 1917, Siberia produced up to 10% of all agricultural implements and machinery in Russia. If the labor productivity of one worker in the Donbass in 1913 amounted to 8,5 thousand pounds of coal per year, in Russia 9,5% thousand pounds, then Siberian miners mined 11,7 thousand pounds of coal on average.
    And finally, the fact that if the beginning of the twentieth century. in St. Petersburg, one student was for 63 people, in Moscow - for 57, in Kharkov - for 131, then in Tomsk and Krasnoyarsk one student was for 26 people.
    1. Marek Rozny
      0
      15 February 2013 00: 10
      Quote: Ermolaich
      In 1913, according to the number of cattle, the Russian Empire occupied the second place in the world after the USA - 190 million heads, of which 20% were Siberia. At the beginning of the twentieth century. up to 50% of all meat in Moscow was imported because of the Urals. In peasant farms in Siberia, up to 18% of all horses in Russia, 14% of sheep, 12% of pigs were bred (once again, we recall that 6% of the country's population was engaged in this).

      And here I will note that the lion's share of "Siberian meat" is from the territory that is the Kazakh steppes, and not the current Russian Siberia. Just geographically, part of Kazakhstan is Western Siberia. Omsk was the capital of the Akmola region, in which the main inhabitants were Kazakh pastoralists. Siberia also included the present Pavlodar and East Kazakhstan regions, in which it was exactly the same as in Akmola. So here the concept of Siberia does not include modern Russian Omsk or Kemerovo, but Kazakh Akmolinsk, Kokshetau, Semipalatinsk and other cities of Kazakhstan. In the Russian part of Siberia, more pigs were bred, and the number of horses and sheep was inferior to the steppe, of course.
      This is unprincipled all, of course, but simply reminded that the concept of Siberia before the revolution was a little more than now.
      1. Ermolaich
        0
        15 February 2013 08: 38
        In order to minus and in response to real pre-revolutionary staistics give fictitious information, sit in the archives with mine ... In Western Siberia, 96% according to the census of the late XIX century. Composed of the Russian (and, as it were, the Russian-speaking would be written now) population, only 4% were an autochthonous population. The percentage of prosperous households among local peasants was more than 65%. That's where the livestock came from ... In the Yenisei province there was such a population of up to 60%. Therefore, I wrote something that really corresponds to scientific data. Besides the fact that I am acting as a senior stock on this site, I am also a candidate of historical sciences. And I ask the story not to distort market fiction. I have the honor!
        1. Ermolaich
          0
          15 February 2013 09: 03
          Secondly, dear "colleague" in the discussion! You, apparently, are not aware that at that time the concept of "meat" included only cattle meat! The market mainly sold meat. pork and poultry, well, also game. And mutton in the Russian Empire was mainly used for domestic consumption and was not "quoted" in the city. So in Moscow, they sell cattle meat from peasant COMMODITY farms of Siberians. Indeed, even in the Yenisei Sitbiri, from 40 to 60 and more% of the farm's products went to the market, incl. European Russia (See S. Kapustin, 70-80s of the XIX century). And Western Siberia, despite the "Chelyabinsk breakdown", successfully held the market of Moscow and other cities.
          1. Marek Rozny
            +1
            15 February 2013 09: 33
            Do not talk nonsense. Millions of lamb heads were for sale in the European part of the Russian Empire and some still went abroad to Europe. How many rams and horses were sold in Akmolinsk, Omsk and other cities (and not only Siberian, but also Ural - in Orenburg for example) is an astronomical figure. In addition to the live herd, leather, etc., were also sold in European Russia.
        2. Marek Rozny
          +1
          15 February 2013 09: 28
          Quote: Ermolaich
          In Western Siberia, 96% according to the census of the late XIX century. Composed of the Russian (and, as it were, the Russian-speaking would be written now) population, only 4% were an autochthonous population.

          Where does this figure come from ??? I would also agree perhaps if you would say that about the urban population. And the Steppe region was inhabited mainly by nomadic Kazakhs, only in the cities the Russians made up the majority, but in the whole region their number at the end of the 20th century was not significant.
          2) Don't think of yourself as the only person doing history. As for meat, you can find out from the annual "address-calendars" of individual provinces. In addition, there is a bunch of relevant studies (even in veterinary medicine), where you can get a lot of information about the amount of meat and horses that the steppe people gave.
          I just remind you that the concept of Siberia before the revolution was greater than it is now, and included also part of present-day Kazakhstan. And it was this part that gave Siberia (and Russia, respectively) the lion's share of living creatures. The number of livestock in the settled Siberian population is many times less than that of the Kazakh nomads.
  32. +4
    14 February 2013 22: 27
    The State Department and the CIA look intensified their work. Circassia to Circassians, Siberia to Siberians ... smile But they wanted to call Stavropol, Kuban and Don
    "KAZAKIA" ..... laughing
    OU NU ..... the boys played too much, didn’t they really understand yet or are so stupid that most of them look at these separatists and twirl their fingers around the temple.
    Now is the time for the FSB to comb through all the "PUBLIC ORGANIZATIONS" and find out where the legs are growing.
    I just can’t understand one thing, these white and green clowns really don’t understand that they are just a means? And if the Yankees drown, they just slap like mad dogs and all.
    I was once on a hunt on the border with Ukraine for 2006 for a year, and I was also present from Ukraine, word for word with a glass on the table, and a conversation started about Ukraine joining NATO.
    Much was said there, well, I just couldn't listen, took it and blurted out: "You are being used as a condom, just like Georgia, just remember my word."
    Recently we met with former opponents (drinking buddies).
    And yet they say you were right.
    It’s better to cross the brothers than not to finish .... laughing drinks
    1. Marek Rozny
      +1
      15 February 2013 00: 14
      The term "Cossackia" (with claims to the territory you specified) was born not in the bowels of the CIA, but during the Second World War. The Germans promised this Cossack to prisoners of war and collaborationists from among the Cossacks.
  33. +1
    14 February 2013 23: 30
    Quote: Irkutsk
    I learned about Siberian separatism from this article, I don’t watch idiots around.

    I agree with you, there is no this problem in Siberia. It exists exclusively in the Internet space, or in one-time actions paid by the swamps, as in the photo of a dozen students and the steering belt under the enhanced protection of the police from the local population, that is, us Siberians.
    1. mars6791
      -1
      15 February 2013 00: 20
      Yes, you have no problems at all, still sing a song how good it is to live in a Soviet country
  34. +1
    15 February 2013 01: 09
    Siberia mastered Cossacks! And that means those who then came to the ready let them close their mouths. Cossacks were never separatists! If the Cossacks were separatists, Ermak would have founded his own state, and would not have risked the life of Ivan Koltso, who, knowing that he could be executed in Moscow, nevertheless went to Grozny to bring new lands of Russia!
    Again - the Cossacks were 100% Orthodox. If they weren’t Orthodox, they would not be accepted into the Cossacks. If we hold on to the Church, or at least respect all that the Church has done for Rui, we will not have Siberian separatism.
    1. Marek Rozny
      -1
      15 February 2013 01: 33
      Ermak is Stroganov's mercenary and acted in the interests of this businessman. And Grozny would not have executed the Stroganov people - the Stroganovs gave money to the tsar for waging wars in the western direction. For this, the Stroganovs (for the only time in the history of Russia) had the right to have their own "armed forces."
      In general, the Yermakovs' Cossacks were unable to conquer (and not "master") Siberia. After Yermak was defeated by the Siberians, army units were already sent from Moscow. It was they who conquered the Siberian Khanate.
    2. +2
      15 February 2013 02: 19
      Cossacks were never separatists!
      Learn history and do not customize to your fantasies
      The All-Great Voisky Don - the name of an unrecognized state, the Don Cossack Republic adopted by the Don Rescue Circle on May 18, 1918 in the territory of the Cossack Region of the Don Army after the liquidation of the Don Soviet Republic as a result of the establishment by Cossack units of control over Novocherkassk May 10, 1918. It was approved by the decision of the Big Don Circle September 15 of the same year. Ataman P. N. Krasnov proposed this name for the revived Don republic, guided by the title adopted in the royal messages to the independent Don in the 1th century: “to the Atamans and Cossacks and to the entire Great Don Army” [1920]. It fell under the blows of the Red Army in early XNUMX.
      and politics led to secession from Muscovy
      The great Don army was proclaimed as the legacy of the "pre-Petrine Cossacks." It was at war with the RSFSR and in alliance with the Denikin Volunteer Army. Petr Krasnov was in good personal relations with the hetman of the Ukrainian State Pavel Skoropadsky; in 1918, a project was discussed to unite the Ukrainian Power, the All-Great Army of the Don and Kuban People's Republic on a federal basis [5].

      Ambassador to Ukraine and Germany: Cheryachukin Alexander Vasilievich.
      1. Marek Rozny
        +2
        15 February 2013 09: 49
        In addition, you can remember the project "Cossackia" during the Second World War.
  35. +1
    15 February 2013 05: 30
    And I will never forget the words of Margaret Thatcher: "Russians are enough for you and 15 million."
  36. +3
    15 February 2013 15: 23
    I myself am from Kuzbass. The state does not need Siberia. I went to see my comrades to see Petersburg, at the same time I got a job and was very surprised, the salary is 3-4 times more and work is 10 times easier. And why?! Resources are pumped and mined from us, and effeminate residents of St. Petersburg and Muscovites, for being kissed in the forehead by God and born in St. Petersburg and Moscow time, live like in another country, receiving 5-6 times more than Russian in Siberia. In St. Petersburg, a Tajik gastrobeiter receives more from a shawarma than a Russian technician or engineer in Kuzbass. Where are we going ?! Children of Tajiks and other "guests" from Central Asia filled all schools. Replacing the indigenous population with newcomers is genocide. Why does Chechnya, which in the 90s staged the genocide of Russians, does the state pay subsidies (tribute) ?! Wrong policy, when they develop a region that slaughters the Russians. Russian Siberia should be developed and not replaced by Tajiks and other "guests"