Japanese blitzkrieg: attack on Port Arthur

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Japanese blitzkrieg: attack on Port Arthur
A line of Japanese ships to the right fires at a line of Russian ships to the left during a surprise naval attack on the Russian fleet at the Battle of Port Arthur. Engraving. 1904


Japanese navy


The Japanese Empire was well prepared for a war with Russia (Why did Japan attack Russia). In 1895, a strengthening program was adopted fleet. They built ships of all classes. The emphasis was placed on ships intended for active offensive operations: squadron battleships, armored cruisers and destroyers. Taking into account the fact that the Japanese shipbuilding industry was not yet able to solve such problems, the vast majority of the ships were built abroad. In England they built 4 squadron battleships, 11 destroyers, in England and France - 6 armored cruisers, in England and the USA - 5 2nd class cruisers, etc.



In 1896, the Japanese government, considering the shipbuilding program of the 1895 of the year insufficient, additionally adopted a program designed for 10 years. It focused on the construction of cruisers and destroyers, necessary for cruising war, the impact on enemy communications, as well as the development of naval infrastructure. To support the actions of the seaports in the Yellow and Japan Seas, naval bases, ports and shipyards were built. By the beginning of the war with Russia, the Japanese transport fleet had the opportunity to simultaneously transfer to the Korean Peninsula two divisions with all weapons, ammunition and equipment.

In 1903, at a special meeting of the Japanese Diet, the third shipbuilding program was adopted. At the beginning of 1904, immediately before the start of the war, the British firms Vickers and Armstrong received an order for the construction of two squadron battleships - Katori and Kashima (Katori-class battleships). Their total displacement was 16,6 thousand tons. It was armed with four 305 mm/45, four 254 mm/45 and twelve 152 mm/45 guns. In just a year and a half, England commissioned two powerful battleships - in 1906 they entered service with the Japanese fleet.

By the beginning of the war, Japan had 6 squadron battleships (Mikasa, Asahi, Shikishima, Hatsuse, Fuji, Yashima) and 6 armored cruisers (Asama, Tokiwa, Azuma, Yakumo ", "Izumo", "Iwate"). Most of them were built by the “mistress of the seas” Britain and had some technological advantage over Russian ships.


Battleship "Mikasa". Named after a mountain in Nara Prefecture. Ordered in 1898, built at the Vickers shipyard in Great Britain. Launched in 1900, entered service in 1902. She was the flagship of the Japanese fleet under the flag of Vice Admiral Togo Heihachiro during the Russo-Japanese War. Participated in the battle of the Yellow Sea and the Battle of Tsushima.

Thus, Japanese naval artillery was superior to Russian in terms of projectile mass (of the same caliber) and technical rate of fire, so the broadside salvo of the Japanese squadron during the battle in the Yellow Sea (August 10, 1904) was about 12 kg versus 418 kg for the Russian squadron in Port -Arthur.

In addition, in 1903, Japan was able to buy two Italian-built armored cruisers from Argentina. The cruisers Kasuga and Nissin entered service at the beginning of the war and took an active part in it.

The strength of the Japanese fleet was its personnel. Thanks to the development of merchant shipping and maritime trades in the country, it mainly consisted of natural sailors. Many specialists had experience of the Sino-Japanese War.

Another advantage of the Japanese fleet is its developed infrastructure. The Japanese navy had well-equipped ports and docks that made supplies and repairs easy.


Squadron battleship Asahi, July 1900

Imperial Army


In 1900–1904 The power of the Japanese army was significantly increased. It was completed on the basis of the law on universal military service, adopted in 1872, and it applied to men 17–40 years old. The following year, six territorial districts were established. Initially, French officers were brought in as instructors, and then German ones.

The service was divided into active, reserve 1st and 2nd category (territorial troops) and militia. Taking into account the fact that in peacetime there were more conscripts than necessary, selection was carried out by drawing lots. They served in the army for 3 years, in the navy for 4 years. The man was in the 1st category reserve for 4 years and 4 months, in the 2nd category reserve for 5 years, then he was considered a militia member. In addition, there was a militia that was supposed to protect the islands; they were drafted into it for a year.

The peacetime Japanese army numbered 180 thousand people. After mobilization, Japan could field more than 400 thousand people. Taking into account the reserve, the army numbered 850 thousand people. The commander-in-chief of the imperial armed forces was the emperor.

The central institutions that directed the army were the Ministry of the Army, the General Staff of the Army and the Main Inspectorate of Military Training. The Ministry of the Army was established in 1872, the General Staff in 1878 (the General Staff of the Fleet was created in 1893), and the Main Inspectorate of Military Training was formed in 1900. In 1900, a Military Council was established, subordinate to the emperor (mikado).

The core of the army was the officers, who inherited the traditions of the samurai. The officers were the stronghold of the Japanese Empire, the bearer of the idea of ​​“Great Japan” and the exclusivity of the Japanese people. It should be noted that the Japanese officers were quite well trained and showed exceptional courage and perseverance in battle, and were brought up on the basis of the concepts of the “warrior code”. Although, in general, mid-level officers were not distinguished by initiative, preferring to strictly follow the orders of the command.

Also, the advanced German military school at that time influenced the education of Japanese officers. The General Staff officers suffered from isolation from the rank and file. Many of them were educated in France and Germany.

The army had a strict hierarchy and discipline. This is generally a feature of Japanese civilization, which has existed to this day. The officer was the bearer of the will of the emperor (respectively the gods). Soldiers were raised on the basis of complete obedience to the will of the commander and strict execution of orders. Therefore, the regular Japanese army was distinguished by its tenacity and fanaticism in battle.

This type of soldier was praised by the Japanese press. Service in the armed forces was considered the highest honor, which could not be compared with other specialties. Typically, speeches by representatives of the imperial house and senior statesmen included praise for the army and navy. Army and Navy Day was the most prominent holiday of the Japanese Empire. The ceremony of seeing off the army was equated to a funeral and became a very important ceremony in the life of the Japanese. The farewell was celebrated very solemnly. The future fighter expressed his readiness to die in the interests of the empire.

Generals and officers respected all society, they had the highest status in Japan. In order to create the illusion of social justice, the nomination of middle-level and especially lower-level officers was allowed to nominate soldiers (usually peasants) who succeeded in the service. In general, the society was heavily militarized.

The militarization of society was facilitated by the territorial principle of recruiting the Japanese army. Japanese military units had strong ties with the local civil administration, jointly controlling local life. The military kept future recruits and reservists in their sights and often established close communication with their families.

It is necessary to take into account such a very strong side of the Japanese army as universal literacy of the population. As Admiral Makarov noted, there has not been a single illiterate person in Japan for five centuries. From generation to generation, the Japanese were accustomed to learning and very quickly absorbed advanced European achievements. Japanese soldiers were trained from school. From school, the young man was instilled with the idea that “Japan has a leading role in the East,” that “there is no force capable of crushing Japan.”

The idea of ​​overpopulation in Japan and the need to expand its territory to increase the well-being of the people was also propagated. After Russia intervened in the affairs of China and Japan, took the Liaodong Peninsula from the Japanese, and took Port Arthur, the Japanese were taught the idea of ​​the inevitability of a battle with the Russians, the need for revenge. Schoolchildren often took part in military exercises.

Operational art in the Japanese army was introduced under the impression of Prussia's victories in the unification of Germany. Commander-in-Chief of the Japanese armies Oyama Iwao (Oyama) during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870–1871. was with the Prussian troops, studying the best practices of warfare. In 1884, Meckel, a professor at the Berlin Military Academy, arrived in the Empire of Japan. From that time on, a comprehensive reorganization of the Japanese army along the German model began.

Meckel wrote regulations and instructions for all branches of the Japanese army and established the Tokyo Military Academy. All senior Japanese officers became students of the German professor. The Japanese also carefully studied the experience of the Anglo-Boer War. As a result, Japanese military art avoided frontal actions that could lead to large losses and sought to bypass the flanks and encircle the enemy.

At the same time, it should be noted that the Japanese army was characterized by schematism and stereotypes. If the Japanese failed to carry out an operation to encircle the enemy's flanks, they lost the initiative, were confused, and did not know how to proceed. Imitation of the “military art of Moltke” brought success to the Japanese army for some time, but could lead to a military disaster if the Russian army were led by generals of the “Suvorov school”, and it would have the opportunity to continue the fight further.


Japanese infantry during the occupation of Seoul. Korea, 1904

weaponry


The Japanese infantry were armed with 6,5 mm Arisaka Model 1897 rifles (Type 30). Length 1 mm, weight 270 g. Sliding, rotary shutter. The magazine is in the middle with a staggered arrangement of cartridges. There are 3 rounds in the clip. A bayonet weighing 900 g with a cleaver blade. The reserve and territorial troops were armed with guns of the Murata system.

The importance of machine guns in the Japanese army had not yet been understood, so there were only a small number of them in service. Hotchkiss machine guns were just being tested. However, already during the war, the Japanese army, actively modernized by the British, gained some advantage over the Russian army in this segment.

The artillery fleet of the Japanese army was based on the 75-mm field gun of the 1898 model of the Arisaka system and the 75-mm mountain gun of the 1898 model. In terms of mountain cannons, the Russian army was inferior to the Japanese army several times.

Already during the war, Japan ordered 400 75-mm Krupp field guns. The Germans also supplied 2 thousand blanks for such guns. Of these, 300 guns were made in the arsenal of the city of Osaka. This gun was later modernized, and it was named the Arisaka system of the 1905 model (type 38). During the war, the Japanese also ordered several dozen 12-cm and 15-cm (120-mm and 150-mm) Krupp howitzers from the Germans. Fortress and siege artillery had Krupp guns of large calibers, up to 280 mm guns.

The Japanese Empire's own military industry was in its infancy, so the Japanese imported guns from the Krupp and Schneider factories (machine guns were also delivered from abroad).


The Type 30 Arisaka rifle is a Japanese bolt-action repeating rifle that was the standard rifle of the Imperial Japanese Army from 1897 (the 30th year of the Meiji period, hence the "Type 30") until 1945

The highest tactical unit of the Japanese army was the division. In wartime, the formation of an army was envisaged. So, before the start of the war with Russia, three armies were formed. The first divisions were in 1885, then 6 divisions were created. A few years later, a guards division was formed. During the war with China, Japan had 6 army divisions and 1 guards division - 64 thousand people, which, according to the wartime staff, were deployed to 171 thousand people. A new reorganization in the army was carried out after the war with China. At the beginning of the war, Japan fielded 13 divisions and 13 reserve brigades with a total strength of 375 thousand people.

One of the peculiarities of the Japanese divisions was the presence of numerous porters. As part of the army for each division during the war were 6 thousand. Porters. The need for such a large number of porters was associated with the weakness of the transport and the underdevelopment of the road network of the Manchurian theater of operations. The impossibility of creating a corps organization in such conditions led to the fact that it was necessary for each division to give tactical and economic independence. Subsequently, the Japanese created a network of field railways in a number of regions and organized a system of warehouses, which facilitated the supply of troops.

On the eve of the war, the Empire of Japan deployed its army according to a wartime plan. As a result, the Japanese army had 13 guns among 7 division artillery regiments and 704 army artillery regiments in peacetime, and 1 guns in wartime. Japan was able to deploy its artillery in the theater of operations faster than Russia.

The artillerymen generally had good training and, although the Japanese artillery was inferior in range and rate of fire, good technical training and the ability to shoot from closed positions gave the Japanese an advantage at the beginning of the war. Subsequently, when the Russians learned to shoot from closed positions just as well, the situation changed dramatically in their favor. In artillery duels, victory almost always remained with the Russian artillerymen.

In Russia, the Japanese army was underestimated. The combat training of the troops was considered low. Japanese artillery was called unsatisfactory. It was believed that the engineering troops were poorly prepared. The weakness of the Japanese cavalry was noted. In reality, these estimates are outdated; they corresponded to the Japanese army of the 1870s and 1880s.

The Japanese troops were trained by advanced German specialists, and their training approached the Western European standard. The armies were instilled with offensive tendencies, but they coexisted with the traditional Japanese caution and some slowness.

The Japanese really had a traditionally weak cavalry. She usually did not tear herself away from her infantry. Cold weapons The Japanese cavalry in the attack did not use and dismounted during a combat clash for a firefight. Almost did not lead cavalry and intelligence activities. In the intelligence business, the main hopes were pinned on spies.


Marshal Oyama Iwao (1842–1916), played an important role in the creation of the modern Japanese army. In 1899–1904 - Chief of the General Staff. Under his leadership, a plan for war with Russia was developed and the Japanese army was thoroughly prepared for the campaign.

Japanese war plan


The plan of the Japanese command was based on the relative weakness of the existing Russian forces in the Far East at the beginning of the war and the unpreparedness of the Russian Empire for war in the Asia-Pacific theater of operations.

According to Japanese intelligence, Russia had about 75 thousand soldiers in the Far East, and the further accumulation of Russian forces in Manchuria had to occur at an extremely slow pace, since Russia did not have significant military contingents beyond the Urals (in Siberia). There was only one railway line for transporting troops; the Krutobaikalskaya railway line was not ready. Therefore, Russia could not quickly concentrate a large army.

In addition, it was necessary to allocate significant forces for the defense of Port Arthur and Vladivostok, which weakened the field army.

The Japanese command hoped to quickly achieve superiority at sea by destroying or seriously weakening the Russian Pacific squadron at the very beginning of the war.

Thus, Japan could freely transfer troops to the mainland and not fear for its sea communications. The Japanese also took into account the fact that the Russian naval forces, unlike the Japanese, were not concentrated into a single fist. The Russian fleet was weakened by the dispersion associated with the need to protect Port Arthur, Vladivostok and Sakhalin. The Japanese also knew that Port Arthur did not have ship repair yards, docks, or the necessary spare parts. Therefore, if several ships were seriously damaged, the Russian Pacific Squadron should have lost the ability to conduct active combat operations for a long time.

Taking into account all these factors, the Japanese command chose the only possible one in this situation - an active offensive strategy. The Japanese decided to immediately capture the harbor of Chemulpo and the capital of Korea, Seoul, landing part of the ground forces, without waiting for the results of the fleet's attack on the Russian squadron in Port Arthur. According to the calculations of the Japanese command, superiority at sea and superiority in forces on the mainland should have ensured their success in the war.

The Japanese war plan also took into account the fact that their army was familiar with the theater of war, having learned from the war with China in 1894–1895. and during the suppression of the Yihetuan uprising in 1900. The Japanese specifically studied Manchuria during the preparation for the war with Russia.

The Russian army had to operate in an unfamiliar theater, in unusual conditions, in mountainous terrain, in the absence of specific training of troops.

The Japanese command also took into account the internal political situation in Russia. Japanese intelligence was ready to support the revolutionary movement in Russia. The revolution was supposed to weaken Russia and force the government to keep the most combat-ready units in the European part of the country in order to maintain order.

The Japanese planned to destroy or block the Pacific squadron in Port Arthur, capture Korea, then block and quickly take Port Arthur, defeat the Russian army in Southern Manchuria. Japanese troops could be landed in winter on the ice-free shores of the Korean Gulf. The landing of troops in Korea was considered very profitable for several reasons at once:

1) the landing of troops was relatively safe, since the Japanese fleet dominated the sea, and the railway where the Russian field troops were located was far away. Therefore, the Russian command could only send a small detachment that could not interfere with the landing of the Japanese army;

2) Korea became an intermediate base for the Japanese army. The capture of the Korean Peninsula significantly increased Japan's material resources needed to wage war. In particular, the Japanese were able to use Korea's labor resources. The Japanese divisions needed thousands of porters to move supplies by hand, since the terrain west of the Yalu River was roadless and mountainous;

3) in the event of failure at the first stage of the war, the Korean Peninsula was a fairly convenient springboard for the concentration of Japanese troops, which could be regrouped for subsequent offensive operations or evacuated.


Commander of the Japanese Combined Fleet in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904–1905. Admiral Heihachiro Togo (1848–1934) on the cover of Time magazine, 1926.

The Japanese command decided to land troops on the northwestern coast of the peninsula, in the ports of Chemulpo (one brigade) and Tsinampo (main forces), which brought the army significantly closer to the starting area for the offensive deep into Manchuria.

Two months before the start of the war in Japan, Tamemoto Kuroki's 1st Army was mobilized, consisting of the Guards, 2nd and 12th divisions and two reserve brigades (about 45 thousand people). The 1st Army was to move to the Fenghuangcheng area and take a flank position in relation to the South Manchurian Railway in order to ensure the landing of the remaining armies on the shore of the Liaodong Peninsula.

The 2 Army under the command of Yasukat Oka as part of the 1, 3 and 4 divisions (about 40 thousand people) was to land on the shores of the Liaodong Peninsula in order to interrupt the messages of Port Arthur with Manchuria as soon as possible. The army of the Oku was to capture the Jinzhou Isthmus. After that, one division was to remain to strengthen the 3 Army of Marasuke Legs (90 thousand people), which was to besiege Port Arthur. The remaining troops of the 2 Army were to move in the direction of Liaoyang, interacting with the forces of the 1 Army. In the future, they planned to land the 4 Army under the command of Nozu Mititsuru.

Actions against Vladivostok and Sakhalin were considered possible if the main objectives were successfully implemented. In the event of a threat of landing from Vladivostok, police forces were mobilized on the Japanese islands. With the successful implementation of the main objectives of the war plan, the Japanese planned to occupy Vladivostok, which was supposed to become an important trump card in peace negotiations.

Naval operations were entrusted to the squadrons of admirals Togo Heihachiro and Uriu Sotokichi. Togo in 1903 was appointed commander of the United Fleet of Japan and had to solve the problem of destroying the Russian Pacific squadron. Rear Admiral Uriu commanded a detachment that accompanied the landing of the 1st Army and was supposed to force the surrender or destroy the Russian ships in Chemulpo. The Japanese were calm about the left sea flank; it was provided with strong ice. The Russian Vladivostok detachment of cruisers in winter could not prevent the landing of Japanese troops in Korea.

If the war took an unfavorable turn for the Empire of Japan, the Japanese command was counting on diplomatic intervention from the British and Americans. Britain and the United States had to force Russia to make peace, maintaining the pre-war status quo. Japan also counted on financial support from England and the United States. These expectations were completely confirmed. Britain and the USA provided Japan with financial and political-diplomatic support, without which Japan would not have been able to fight.


Russo-Japanese War 1904–1905. Plans of the parties and deployment of armies. Source: L. Beskrovny. Atlas of maps and diagrams of the Russian military stories

The Japanese military-political leadership relied on a fleeting war:

1) the rapid success of the fleet, which gave dominance at sea, the possibility of landing an amphibious army and supplying troops on the mainland. But in the event of a mistake and success of the Russian fleet, the entire war plan collapsed;

2) the Japanese underestimated the carrying capacity of the Siberian Railway. Therefore, the Russian army had the opportunity to switch to active offensive operations earlier than expected in Japan;

3) the expectation of allocating larger groups of the Russian Army for the defense of Port Arthur and Vladivostok did not materialize. As a result, the Russian field army had more forces than the Japanese command had planned. And the Japanese initially allocated fewer forces against the Russian field army than was necessary, and thus the first offensive impulse was weakened;

4) the expectation of a quick capture of Port Arthur with the first powerful blow did not materialize. The siege of the fortress dragged on, tied up large forces of the Japanese army and led to huge losses.

The Japanese war plan, being the fruit of many years of development, taking into account the experience of the war with China, was well thought out. But the Japanese underestimated the Russian army and, in a protracted war, inevitably lost due to the difference in military potential. Blitzkrieg was partially successful at the first stage (fleet blockade and landing), but then the war scenario began to change for the worse for Japan.

The Japanese Empire had neither military-material, nor human, nor financial reserves for a long war. Russia, in fact, had only just begun to fight in earnest when peace was concluded. Japan by this time was already completely exhausted. It was not the army that lost the war, it was the politicians who lost it.


Asama is an armored cruiser of the Imperial Japanese Navy. The lead ship in the Asama-class cruiser series. Participated in the Russo-Japanese, World War I and World War II. Named after the Asama volcano in central Honshu.

To be continued ...
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  1. +10
    February 9 2024
    Russia, in fact, had only just begun to fight in earnest when peace was concluded. Japan by this time was already completely exhausted.

    Dear author, this widely held narrative is nothing more than a persistent myth.

    The three-hundred-page analytical study “The Economic and Financial Situation of Japan After the War of 1904-1905” allows me to confidently state this.
    1. +10
      February 9 2024
      the entrenched narrative is nothing more than a persistent myth
      Yes, like about the Crimean War, which we almost didn’t lose.
    2. +12
      February 9 2024
      Quote: Comrade
      The three-hundred-page analytical study “The Economic and Financial Situation of Japan After the War of 1904-1905” allows me to confidently state this.

      If this work evaluates the economic and financial situation of Japan precisely AFTER THE REVOLUTION, then this is not an indicator for the position of its armed forces in the last phase of the war. Japan's financial and military forces were indeed depleted quite significantly (we are talking about its ground army), and its reserves were mostly exhausted. During this time, Russia completed the construction of the Circum-Baikal Railway and has already concentrated superior forces in the Far East. The Russian Land Army could smear the Japanese in Manchuria and even in Liaodong. Perhaps she could even return Port Arthur...
      The problem was that the military-political leadership of the Republic of Ingushetia fell in love with the entire pre-war period, failed to build ships for the Pacific Fleet in time and transport them in a timely manner before the start of the war. As a result, after Tsushima (what idiot-martyr sent the 0nd squadron there after the fall of Port Arthur?), the Republic of Ingushetia had practically no fleet left...at all. Therefore, even having suffered defeat on land, Japan could (and proceeded to do so) easily capture Sakhalin and even Kamchatka. And we most likely would not have taken the Liaodong Peninsula (or with very heavy losses) because the Japanese fleet would have actively supported its ground forces there with fire. And he would provide everything necessary. As a result, having been defeated at sea and having lost our entire fleet, we would have also lost all of Sakhalin and Kamchatka... And against the backdrop of an extremely unsuccessful war in the Republic of Ingushetia,... the Revolution began. The one at number 2.
      And the passion-bearing king had to ask pardon from the “yellow-faced monkeys.”
      Who's guilty ?
      He is guilty ! He appointed Witte prime minister, his uncle (a lover of ballerinas and especially Kshesinskaya) responsible for the construction of ships, and he himself indulged in family pleasures, giving birth to an heir.
      As a result, Witte (an agent and relative of the Rothschilds’ grandmother) in every possible way delayed the financing of the construction of ships, categorically opposed ordering ships from foreign shipyards and in every possible way complicated and delayed the transfer of ships to the Far East.
      And he succeeded in this.
      And the uncle of the crowned passion-bearer simply stole Witte's already cut budget for the construction of ships, thanks to which Kshesinskaya carried out diamonds for one new battleship every evening.
      With such power, all that remained was to win...
      1. +6
        February 9 2024
        Quote: bayard
        As a result, Witte (an agent and relative of the Rothschilds’ grandmother) in every possible way delayed the financing of the construction of ships, categorically opposed ordering ships from foreign shipyards and in every possible way complicated and delayed the transfer of ships to the Far East.

        Witte just suggested that the military should “stretch their legs according to their clothes.”
        If Witte simply did not give money for the same second set of ammunition for the fleet, if there were funds in the budget, that would be one thing. But the catch is that there was no extra money in the budget. Normal funding for the Armed Forces could only be received in wartime - by cutting the expenses of everyone else.
        This is not a matter of personality, but of the basis - the economy and industry.
        By the way, about ordering ships from foreign shipyards... if Witte had supported this initiative, now the patriots would have branded him for the collapse of the domestic industry, the transfer of money abroad, kickbacks, bribes, and so on, so on, so on. In short, I would go along with lovers of French guns smile
        1. +2
          February 9 2024
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Witte just suggested that the military should “stretch their legs according to their clothes.”

          Witte used the weird term “patriot” - he said, “let’s support the domestic manufacturer” and we will build ships ONLY at home. Although it was possible to build a battleship abroad almost one and a half times cheaper and faster, the main thing was to meet the deadline.
          And everyone knew the deadline - all rearmament programs for the Japanese army and navy ended in 1903.
          And what did Witte do and offer?
          And he convinced the tsar that “there is no money” and we will not build a fleet and strengthen Arthur before 1905. "But the Japanese WILL NOT DARE"! But he did not spare money on the construction of the trading (!) port of Dalny and the city of the same name. (we now also like to build shopping complexes, housing in big cities, which can be sold by no more than 30%)
          Quote: Alexey RA
          about ordering ships from foreign shipyards... if Witte had supported this initiative, the patriots would now be branding

          If the ships had been ordered abroad in the volume that was possible and on time, then the war either would not have taken place at all or would have followed a completely different scenario.
          And Witt would not be remembered at all, or would be remembered in a more positive/less negative way.
          But Witte is Witte and he could not do otherwise, did not want and did not intend to.
          1. -1
            February 10 2024
            Quote: bayard
            he was weird under the “patriot” - they say “we will support the domestic manufacturer” and we will build ships ONLY at home. Although it was possible to build a battleship abroad almost one and a half times cheaper and faster, the main thing was to meet the deadline.

            This is what you're talking about now"Mistrali"?
            You're blaming now Serdyukov is that he did not order the bulk of the ships abroad - did their shipyards build outside of any deadlines at all?
            Witte is a scoundrel and a scoundrel because he yourself did they build ships?
            However....I've seen everything
            1. +3
              February 10 2024
              Quote: your1970
              Are you talking about Mistral now?

              Just don’t compare the main warships of that time with ships for landing troops and helicopters. Here at the turn of 1903 and 1904. war is scheduled, the enemy’s all military programs end in 1903, the newest fleet is being built at the best shipyards in the world (quickly!), the best specialists are training their army and navy in their academies, selling all the best, not limiting or denying anything.
              And at this time in Russia... the young but narrow-minded tsar does not get out of his bed, the matter of state leadership - the heir is stubbornly giving birth...
              Quote: your1970
              Is Witte a scoundrel and a scoundrel because he built ships at home?

              Firstly, he is a scoundrel because he pushed the Republic of Ingushetia into this Far Eastern Adventure, for which Russia was not ready - it did not have railways to the Far East, had neither population nor industry in the east - so, the settlements of the Cossacks (border guards), a little -a few soldiers and explorers... And with such basic data, rush into conflict with the strongest and most developed state in the region? Densely populated and completely literate? And whose allies are England and the USA?
              And for what? For access to the sea? For the sake of trade?
              It was Witte who agreed to lease the Liaodong Peninsula, Port Arthur, and the right to build the Chinese Eastern Railway. Having paid 50 million rubles in gold from the treasury out of the blue for rent - at once. And thereby pushed Russia into SUCH SPENDING... into SUCH A RACE, into such a shameful and extremely inconvenient logistically war... At the same time, doing EVERYTHING necessary so that RI entered the war as unprepared as possible, conducted it worse than ever, lost miserably and made peace on humiliating terms, although by that time it could have simply crushed the Japanese army in Manchuria, having by that time concentrated an army of millions there.
              After the shameful end of that war, the Portsmouth Mirai of the First Russian Revolution of 1905-1907. , Witte fled abroad, and the eternally deceived Tsar Niki called him: “This is my PERSONAL ENEMY.”
              For your information, the only modern ships in the Far East at the beginning of the REV were ships ONLY foreign built:
              -battleship "Retvizan" (USA),
              - battleship "Tsesarevich" (France),
              -cruisers "Bayan", "Varyag", "Bogatyr", "Askold", "Novik" - all foreign-built.
              Only there were TOO FEW of them there.
              But no matter how hard they tried, they couldn’t build their own faster. And how they tumbled and turned over in Tsushima, I think you also heard about the “newest, unparalleled battleships of Borodino.”
              If war is inevitable, they prepare for it.
              The only chance to get ships to Arthur on time is to order from foreign shipyards, where they knew how to build (!) quickly, efficiently and one and a half times cheaper. And for your shipyards, choose not pretentious projects (with flourishes), but those that are optimal in terms of functionality, equipment and accessibility in construction.
              1. -4
                February 10 2024
                Quote: bayard
                Just don’t compare the main warships of that time with ships for landing troops and helicopters. Here at the turn of 1903 and 1904. war is scheduled, the enemy’s all military programs end in 1903, the newest fleet is being built at the best shipyards in the world (quickly!), the best specialists are training their army and navy in their academies, selling all the best, not limiting or denying anything.

                That is, according to Your logic - Serdyukov MUST was to order ALL ships abroad
                Quote: bayard
                where they knew how to build (!) quickly, efficiently and one and a half times cheaper
                because we had Syria and Ukraine on our noses?????!!!

                Quote: bayard
                If war is inevitable, they prepare for it.
                - means all those who howled at VO about “the scoundrel Serdyukov who built ships abroad” should be taken out and shot?
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. -1
                  February 10 2024
                  And what, in Syria and Ukraine, does the fleet play some significant role, unlike the RNV?
                  1. +1
                    February 14 2024
                    Quote: Rakovor
                    And what, in Syria and Ukraine, does the fleet play some significant role, unlike the RNV?

                    Haven’t you heard about the problems with supplying troops in Syria???
                    The same problem as in the RYAV - the fleet was not ready...
                    1. 0
                      February 15 2024
                      And what does the Navy have to do with it? These are the problems of the lack of a merchant fleet under our flag, not a military one. Or did we fight convoys there?))
            2. +3
              February 10 2024
              Quote: your1970
              However....I've seen everything

              When you can’t do it yourself, but you just need the edge, you have to buy from anyone. And RI had such an opportunity.
              Quote: your1970
              You are now accusing Serdyukov of

              "I got rid of the scoop in the Army."
              Quote: your1970
              Are you talking about Mistral now?

              The Mistrals were built and not given to us, but the Arthurian squadron at least fought on ships built abroad. They still sing about “Varyag” to this day.
              Quote: your1970
              Did they build their shipyards outside of any deadlines at all?

              The Borodino residents built their own shipyards, and in Tsushima they tumbled upside down.
              Witte gave us two lost wars and three revolutions.
              Quote: your1970
              Is Witte a scoundrel and a scoundrel because he built ships at home?

              No - just a scoundrel and a scoundrel.
              1. 0
                February 15 2024
                Well, Count Polusakhalinsky, what’s that?
      2. -3
        February 9 2024
        Quote: bayard
        As a result, after Tsushima (what idiot-martyr sent the 0nd squadron there after the fall of Port Arthur?), the Republic of Ingushetia had practically no fleet left...at all.

        The squadron was sent almost on time, but Admiral Rozhdestvensky did everything to be late for the war, the route around Africa was obviously wild and long (and he first suggested crawling across the Pacific Ocean). Again, there were no particular problems concentrating superior forces in Port Arthur even without a full complement of Borodinites, but they didn’t even try. They stupidly forgot about preparations for war with Japan.
        1. 0
          February 9 2024
          And there was no need to concentrate.
          Some ships left for the Baltic from the Far East right before the war.
          The same Nicholas I.
          1. +1
            February 9 2024
            Quote: Maxim G
            Some ships left for the Baltic from the Far East right before the war

            And I'm talking about it! They removed Sisoy, Navarin, Nakhimov - for what? Change guns? So it’s not difficult to rearrange them in P-A using a crane. But they didn’t change the old battleships’ cars, but they partially rebuilt the pipes and boilers. They drove us around the world for no reason and eventually sent us back to fight.
            1. +2
              February 10 2024
              Plus kick Virenius’s squadron so that Oslyabya gets to the start of the war and buys Italian armored cruisers.
              In general, it was possible to gather decent forces in Port Arthur and Vladivostok (at the same time depriving the Japanese of Nissin and Kasuga).
              If you also change the guns of the old battleships, then considering that the port and batteries are nearby, and if they get hit you can go there, then the outdated armor and shorter speed will reduce their importance.
              Those. This already results in an additional 6 armored ships. Yes, transfer 3 armored cruisers from Vladivostok to Port Arthur - already 9.
              1. 0
                February 10 2024
                Quote: Maxim G
                Those. This already results in an additional 6 armored ships. Yes, transfer 3 armored cruisers from Vladivostok to Port Arthur - already 9.

                Agree! The Japanese of that time were not at all suicidal. With equal forces, they were ready to take risks and try to outplay the enemy, but with obviously inferior forces, they would prefer to postpone the war.

                Again, the commander of the RI fleet was given the opportunity to take risks and behave more aggressively. The Japanese could not ignore this.

                Alas. sad
              2. 0
                February 12 2024
                Quote: Maxim G
                Plus kick Virenius’s squadron so that Oslyabya gets to the start of the war and buys Italian armored cruisers.
                In general, it was possible to gather decent forces in Port Arthur and Vladivostok (at the same time depriving the Japanese of Nissin and Kasuga).
                If you also change the guns of the old battleships, then considering that the port and batteries are nearby, and if they get hit you can go there, then the outdated armor and shorter speed will reduce their importance.
                Those. This already results in an additional 6 armored ships. Yes, transfer 3 armored cruisers from Vladivostok to Port Arthur - already 9.

                Dear, all these are your fantasies, nothing more. There were reasons for all these actions. Sinking Kasuga and Nissin, who were flying the English flag, well, well
                1. 0
                  February 12 2024
                  Where did you read about the warming of Nissin and Kasuga? what
                  1. 0
                    February 12 2024
                    Quote: Maxim G
                    Where did you read about the warming of Nissin and Kasuga? what

                    Ah, yes, I misunderstood the words “to deprive the Japanese of Nissin and Kasuga.” But I think the reason for everything was that they didn’t expect war so soon. They didn’t think that Japan would decide. Although the Americans got it even worse at Pearl Harbor. It’s also not clear about the purchase of Nissin and Kasuga. The British wouldn’t let them buy them, I'd rather buy it myself
              3. 0
                February 12 2024
                Quote: Maxim G
                Yes, transfer 3 armored cruisers from Vladivostok to Port Arthur - already 9.

                But this is completely unnecessary. In their place, they diverted 4 armored cruisers from the main theater, but were not intended for squadron combat anyway.
                1. 0
                  February 12 2024
                  Not distracted.
                  See the composition of the Japanese fleet at the Battle of Tsushima.
                  1. +1
                    February 12 2024
                    Quote: Maxim G
                    Not distracted.
                    See the composition of the Japanese fleet at the Battle of Tsushima.

                    The entire period of naval confrontation until the fall of Port Arthur, limited forces of the Japanese fleet acted against the 1st squadron. The battle in ZhM is a wonderful illustration, when against 6 of our battleships the enemy put only 4 armored vehicles + 3 armored cruisers in a line.
                    For Tsushima, the situation was completely different. Firstly, Rurik died, and secondly, 2TOE entered Tsushima, which in any case was Kamimura’s area of ​​responsibility.
                    1. 0
                      February 12 2024
                      What's the difference?
                      When the Japanese needed it, they pulled everything to Tsushima.
          2. +1
            February 10 2024
            Quote: Maxim G
            Some ships left for the Baltic from the Far East right before the war.
            The same Nicholas I.

            If you are talking about the battleship, then for the first time it came to the Far East as part of Nebogatov’s squadron. And before the RYAV he served in the Mediterranean.
            1. +4
              February 10 2024
              The battleship spent the entire year of 1894 in the Mediterranean Sea, and in January of the following year, under the flag of the new squadron commander, Rear Admiral S.O. Makarov, having hastily completed painting and dry-docking in Malta, it set out for the Far East. Arriving in Nagasaki on April 6, “Emperor Nicholas I” became part of the Russian United Mediterranean and Pacific squadrons. The ship became the first domestic turret-type battleship in the Pacific Ocean. Concentrating in the Chinese port of Chefoo, the squadron (an armadillo, five cruisers, two gunboats, two mine cruisers, a destroyer) was preparing for what then seemed to be an almost inevitable war with Japan. Then, in particular, the ships, each at the choice of the commander, were for the first time painted in protective, various kinds of experimental colors, including those approaching the modern ball color. On May 2, 1895, the tension was relieved - Japan, without risking a military clash with Russia, renounced, having negotiated monetary compensation, its claims to ownership of the Liaodong Peninsula with the fortress and fleet base of Port Arthur. This undoubtedly outstanding diplomatic victory and the triumph of the fleet as a means of international politics, however, confronted Russia with the need for a new round of the naval arms race, which from that moment was begun by Japan, which was thirsty for military revenge.

              “Events of 1894-1895. they revealed to us another enemy, more dangerous in the East than England,” wrote S. O. Makarov in his report on the actions of the fleet in those days.

              Until the end of 1896, "Emperor Nicholas I" sailed in the waters of the Far East, and the whole of 1897 - in the Mediterranean Sea, where the ship marked the beginning of Russia's participation in peacekeeping activities on the island. Crete, whose population, after the just ended Greco-Turkish war, continued to seek secession from the Turkish empire. In April 1898, the ship returned to the Baltic.

              On December 14, 1899, the MTK decided to re-equip the ship, which had begun repairs, for sailing as part of an artillery training detachment. Along with the replacement of the previous fire-tube boilers with 16 new Belleville water-tube systems, the upper tier of the aft superstructure with its luxurious balcony was cut off on the ship. Of the revolving guns, only two 37 mm were left, two of the four 64 mm were removed, sixteen 47 and two 37 mm single-barreled and four machine guns were installed.

              hi
              1. +1
                February 10 2024
                Yes exactly))) feel
                Something stuck in my head that for a long time he was the permanent flagship of the Mediterranean squadron
                Quote: Maxim G
                Until the end of 1896, "Emperor Nicholas I" sailed in the waters of the Far East

                But you must admit, 1896 is never
                Quote: Maxim G
                right before the war

                hi
        2. +6
          February 9 2024
          Quote: Saxahorse
          The squadron was sent almost on time, but Admiral Rozhdestvensky did everything to be late for the war, the route around Africa is obviously wild and long

          This route was chosen for the purpose of meeting seven Argentine and Chilean cruisers. The route through Suez was open.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          (and at first he suggested crawling across the Pacific Ocean).

          And this route was considered for the sake of meeting cruisers off the coast of Argentina and Chile - as if by chance. So that they would not have to risk crossing the Atlantic, where they could be intercepted by British cruisers. For England actually sent ten of the newest cruisers (armored and very fast) after Rozhestvensky’s squadron, and they accompanied him along Africa until half of the route. And apparently this scared off sellers and intermediaries. No one wanted to fall under the wrath and fury of England then.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Again, there were no particular problems concentrating superior forces in Port Arthur even without a full complement of Borodin soldiers, but they didn’t even try.

          They wanted to, but some breakdowns and defects arose during testing and they were eliminated. No luck with this either. Everything fell into the same pocket, and every time against us.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          They stupidly forgot about preparations for war with Japan.

          They didn't forget, they scored.
          Niki was preoccupied with the birth of an heir, his uncle selflessly stole the budgets of ships under construction, Witte did EVERYTHING to ensure that Russia was as unprepared as possible, and legions of British spies were weaving the most insidious intrigues.
          1. 0
            February 9 2024
            Quote: bayard
            This route was chosen for the purpose of meeting seven Argentine and Chilean cruisers. The route through Suez was open.

            A very weak argument. The cruisers were initially poor, and there was no way they could strengthen the main forces. And as auxiliary ones they could have been brought in later. There is another version - perhaps Rozhdestvensky simply received kickbacks from coal companies. Hence his manic interest in coal loading to the limit, and the longest routes requiring as much coal as possible.
            1. +1
              February 10 2024
              Quote: Saxahorse
              A very weak argument. The cruisers were initially poor, and there was no way they could strengthen the main forces.

              I don’t agree about the wretchedness, especially at that point in history.
              First, you need to understand that Japan had the best cruisers at that time, especially for that theater of operations, for such an enemy (who did not have such cruisers), and for the tasks at hand. At the same time, 4 out of 7 cruisers were the same “Garibaldians”, like “Nishin” and “Kasuga”. The other three (Chilean) were French-built with the installation of main battery guns in a “diamond” formation, so their broadside was weaker, but the running and retardation fire was stronger. At the same time, they had very decent armor for cruisers and were in no way inferior in speed to most Japanese cruisers. And by the way, the Arthurian "Bayan" had even weaker weapons (2 x 8 "+ 8 x 6", but no less than 30 x 3"), but VERY good armor and excellent speed data (21,5 knots). So he's in I drove "Nishin" and "Kasuga" alone, but in real life they did not give more than 18 knots. So everything in our world is relative, and in a war at sea, the decisive factor is the number of pennants with acceptable characteristics. The characteristics of these cruisers are acceptable. Exactly. for that war, that theater of war and that enemy.
              Japan had 8 cruisers (armored) and 6 ironclads. Very soon there were 4 armadillos. But there are 8 cruisers left. Therefore, the Garibaldians ran with the armadillos (one speed), and the rest - with their flock.
              And this position had to be equalized.
              Together with Bayan there would be 8 of them against 8. But in Vladik we have “raiders” (so-so for linear combat, but there is armor (although not everywhere, but who has it everywhere?), so with them there are already 10 versus 8 (we don’t count “Russia”, they have speed is 18,5 knots, so "Rurik" and "Thunderbolt"). Already more interesting. But you can also add three overexposures to them. Their speed is really 18,5, but then you can add ... "Russia “And this is already... 14 armored ships of the cruiser/raider class. And here the quantity definitely beats the quality.
              And as part of Rozhdestvensky’s squadron (after all, they still had to get to Arthur), these 7 cruisers would be part of an armored group of seven battleships. And a detachment of 14 pennants against Togo’s 12 pennants... with parity in auxiliary artillery, but with a clear advantage in the main caliber... With such forces it is possible to fight with all the forces of Togo.
              That’s why these cruisers became a cherished goal for Rozhestvensky - this is a condition for a GUARANTEED breakthrough to Arthur. And he counted on them very much.
              What would be more correct?
              Send transports with crews to the rendezvous, and the 2nd squadron fly to Arthur at full speed.
              Risk of getting caught during a breakthrough?
              Yes . But otherwise you are guaranteed to be late.
              I have already outlined the breakthrough scheme in detail in one of the comments, it is lengthy but detailed and to the point. It will be interesting - you will find it.
              1. +1
                February 10 2024
                Quote: bayard
                ("Russia"we don’t count, her speed is 18,5 knots, so "Rurik" and "Thunderbolt")

                It seems that you are confused)))
                1. 0
                  February 10 2024
                  Night, sleeplessness, sometimes. Confused.
              2. 0
                February 10 2024
                Quote: bayard
                I don’t agree about the wretchedness, especially at that point in history.

                Here I agree with you, I went a little too far. smile

                Yes, at that moment the Garibaltic cruisers were more or less relevant in terms of performance characteristics. They didn't shine, but they were enough for a fight.

                However, I also had in mind the other side of the problem. Argentina sold its cruisers because there were no funds for maintenance, and the question of their condition is not at all abstract. As far as I remember, this is how the negotiations began - bring them to Libau and we will look at them.

                There is also a third side to the coin - at the time of preparation and launch of TOE-2 at sea, the horse was not yet in the negotiations, not to mention the readiness of the cruisers for transfer. Rozhdestvensky himself mentioned during the campaign that this was complete nonsense. This happened with Kostenko. Again, it’s not so easy to pull over at a gas station and buy a case of beer and seven BrKR. Even for crews, which is 500-600 times seven. In fact, half the composition of the 2nd TOE. You can’t squeeze so much into warships; it’s already cramped there. We need another 20-30 transports, which is hard to miss.

                In general, such a speech may be useful for the narrow-minded Nikolai 2, but there is no doubt that Rozhdestvensky himself understood the unreality of buying “on the run”, other than the desire to spend a lot of coal and be late for the war, I don’t see any other reasons for the route chosen by Rozhdestvensky.
                1. 0
                  February 10 2024
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Argentina sold its cruisers because there were no funds for maintenance, and the question of their condition is not at all abstract.

                  Argentina purchased cruisers for the war with Chile (they had a territorial conflict), and Chile did the same, so the cruisers (especially Argentine ones) were all new, from one continuous series. In total, Argentina ordered 6 Garibaldi-class cruisers, and Chile, already having three French-built ones, ordered two more battleships (very specific in armament) from England. But by 1903, they resolved the issue peacefully and they no longer needed the ships being completed and began to look for new owners. England bought the battleships for itself, fearing that Russia did not buy them (and it would have been very good, they were fast - they gave 19 knots), and we abandoned the Garibaldians, not without the participation of Witte, on the very eve of the war.
                  And then - an attack on Arthur and immediately two of the best battleships and a cruiser are put out of action (but there is no dock), the cruiser "Varyag" and the gunboat "Koreets" perish in Chemulpo, after some time the light cruiser "Boyarin" is blown up by its own mine, then Petropavlovsk dies on a mine bank... belay “And we thought that they wouldn’t dare,” - perhaps the Passion-Bearer could babble.
                  And how can the 2nd squadron get through to Arthur?
                  Here they remembered about the missed chance with the Garibaldians, and money was found for urgent completion and training of the Borodino residents... but there are not enough boats.
                  And then (what about such a scam, and without Witte?) they remembered that the owner of the Italian shipyard that built the Garibaldians offered mediation services for the purchase of two more cruisers from Argentina (except for Nishin and Kasuga) ... and two French cruisers from Chile... And it started spinning. Rogue-looking intermediaries were found, and there was already talk of buying out all seven cruisers from these countries (because they changed their minds about fighting)
                  Now let’s just remember - WHO used all possible means to delay the new Russian ships in Suez, not giving them the opportunity to urgently go to Arthur on the very eve of the war?
                  Witte!!! He simply bombarded the commander of the detachment of ships with his telegrams, each more absurd than the other, but extremely decisively and urgently.
                  Having spat on Witte, “Retvizan”, “Tsesarevich” and “Bayan”, seeing where things were going, nevertheless rushed at full speed and managed to get to Arthur a few days before the Japanese attack. . But “Oslyabya” remained.
                  Why am I doing this?
                  Moreover, it was the same with the cruiser scam - it was Witte who sent a squadron around Africa to meet the cruisers.
                  They went. And we hung out by the deserted bay, waiting for them, wasting precious time.
                  Well, Rozhdestvensky did not have such power to make such decisions.
                  And Witte fled the country after the Portsmouth Peace, because the investigation in all cases of sabotage and criminal decisions came to him... and members of the royal family.
              3. 0
                February 10 2024
                Quote: bayard
                The other three (Chilean) were French-built with the installation of main battery guns in a “diamond” formation, so their broadside was weaker, but the running and retardation fire was stronger. At the same time, they had very decent armor for cruisers and were not at all inferior in speed

                Chile had:
                1 small, but high-sided and fast French-built battleship Captain Pratt.
                2 English-built armored cruisers.
                1. 0
                  February 10 2024
                  The battleship Captain Pratt and O'Higgins each had 4 main caliber guns.
                  Esmeralda 2 main caliber guns.
                  1. +1
                    February 11 2024
                    Quote: Maxim G
                    Chile had:
                    1 small, but high-sided and fast French-built battleship Captain Pratt.
                    2 English-built armored cruisers.

                    Well, we considered such a battleship to be a cruiser, so as not to go into detail once again. And as for the English construction of cruisers... maybe I didn’t double-check, I wrote from memory.
                    In any case, the cruisers would have been useful in that war, so they tried to buy them back for two reasons:
                    1. They were needed to even out the balance with the high-speed wing of the armored ships of the Japanese fleet.
                    2. So that the Japanese themselves do not buy them out under the patronage of England and with US money.
                    Quote: Maxim G
                    Esmeralda 2 main caliber guns.

                    Well, our Bayan also had two 8" guns, but the naval ones were happy with it.
                    The trouble is that, according to the international rules of that time, it was impossible to sell weapons to a warring state. It was on this basis that intercepted English steamships with replacement barrels for Japanese ships, shells and other weapons and equipment were seized by Rozhdestvensky's squadron as prize money - for smuggling and violation of the rules of war.
                    So the purchase of these cruisers could only be carried out through intermediaries, with a large overpayment and the risk of exposure. In a word - an adventure.
          2. 0
            February 12 2024
            Quote: bayard
            And this route was considered for the purpose of meeting cruisers off the coast of Argentina and Chile - as if by chance

            How do you imagine the development of these ships during the transition? At Borodintsy, senior mechanics and engineers studied the ships from the slipways
            1. 0
              February 13 2024
              Quote from Kartograph
              How do you imagine the development of these skills in the conditions of transition?

              I have no idea, the idea was initially a gamble, and combined with the refusal to buy the newly built “Nishin” and “Kasuga” (they had a different name back then) it’s schizophrenia.
              But when the Japanese attack became a fact and in one fell swoop we lost (including disabled) 6 ships (Retvizan, Tsesarevich, one of the “goddesses”, Varyag, Koreets, Boyarin, and this is not counting the destroyers), and then the Petropavlovsk with Makarov on board... and then they began to “grasp for air.”
              And before that - balls, ballerinas, diamonds for Kshesinskaya, Witte’s intrigues - after all, everything was so orderly... the prince was about to be born... And after all, “nothing foreshadowed”.
              And then Witte’s intrigues continued and Witte sent Rozhestvensky to the western coast of Africa - “for a rendezvous.” If I had sent it across the Atlantic, around South America and across the Pacific Ocean, it would have been even more epic.
              Witte’s task was to detain Rozhdestvensky at the transition to Arthur until the Pacific Fleet base fell. And he did it.
              If I had walked through Suez without stopping anywhere, I would have been in time to get to Arthur right when the Retvizan and the Tsarevich were being repaired. And he had every chance to break through, especially when going out to meet the 1st squadron.

              And the “exotic cruisers” are exotic because almost no one initially believed in this adventure.
              But Witte was more active than ever. During the war, he also incurred an external debt for Russia of 11 billion gold rubles.
      3. +3
        February 10 2024
        Thank you for your balanced opinion, but I don’t agree with you on one point

        loved...loved the entire pre-war period, failed to build ships for the Pacific Fleet on time and transport them in a timely manner before the start of the war...delayed in every possible way the financing of the construction of ships

        money doesn't come out of thin air.
        At the end of the 19th - beginning of the 20th century, the Republic of Ingushetia increasingly invested in improving the lives of the population, including consistently reducing the cost of medical care.
        Moreover, introducing a fundamentally new practice for the world of widespread development of a network of medical posts. The fact that she then copied the advice and tried to pass it off as her own.
        And these investments were justified, so mortality per 1000 people has consistently decreased
        1867 = 37 people. 1887 = 34 people 1917 = 27 people

        You can read more, for example, here https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/stanovlenie-i-zakreplenie-pravovyh-osnov-besplatnoy-meditsiny-v-rossii-vo-vtoroy-polovine-xix-nachale-xx- veka/viewer
        Same with education
        in 1893, the budget of the Ministry of Public Education was 22.4 million rubles, and in 1914 - 153.5 million rubles, an increase of 7 times. In addition, education was also financed through the Synod, Military and other ministries. In 1893, a total of 43 million rubles were allocated for education, which accounted for 4,1% of all expenditures, and in 1914 - approximately 270 million rubles, which accounted for 8% of all budget expenditures - that is the percentage increase in budget expenditures on education is 2 times. and this came from the state budget, and there were also zemstvo expenses.
        There were 1896 thousand primary schools in 78, and already 1914 thousand in 119.4. The number of gymnasiums, that is, secondary educational institutions, in 1892 was 239, and in 1914 - 2300 - an increase of 10 times! The number of students in 1896 was 3.8 million, in 1914 - 9.7 million. The number of teachers in 1896 was 114 thousand, in 1914 - 280 thousand. The number of students in 1890 was 12.5 thousand, in 1914 - 127 thousand - again an increase of 10 times

        That. The empire's budget in those years was largely spent on social needs.
        Therefore, Witte did not have a very rich choice - either money for armadillos, or for social needs, such as education and healthcare.
        1. +1
          February 10 2024
          Quote: N.M.
          Therefore, Witte did not have a very rich choice - either money for armadillos, or for social needs, such as education and healthcare.

          I advise you to find on the Internet the book by A. Sharapov “After the Victory of the Slavophiles”, edited (collected, republished) by O. A. Platonov. You will learn a lot of new and interesting things for yourself. Including how much money Trans-Sib was built in 8 (!!!) years, what “absolute money” is, how he proposed his program to Alexander-3 and how it was implemented, how the Putilov factories appeared... and what kind of relationship Sharapova and Witte visited. Sharapov was then (under Alexander 3) a comrade (deputy) of the Minister of Agriculture. You will definitely be interested. There are also diaries of him and the minister of travel around Novorossiya and the Black Sea region in 1895 or 1896.
          Quote: N.M.
          money doesn't come out of thin air.

          Just find out where they come from.
          And I was present at the presentation of that book in the fall of 2005, and for the creation of the All-Russian Economic Society named after. A. Sharapova voted.
          So if my son hadn’t fallen in love with...loved his father’s undertakings at Witte’s instigation, then there would have been enough money for the entire Far Eastern Program, and for the Fleet, and for Port Arthur, for NORMAL shells. And the budget would not have suffered. And 11 billion rubles in GOLD (!) external loans would not have been grabbed by the blessed passion-bearer.
          Quote: N.M.
          In addition, education was also financed through the Synod,

          Why, I know, my grandfather graduated from the Central Secondary School - fourth grade, fifth corridor. But my grandmother was not allowed to go to school.
          I talked to many old people about those times, from different classes - from aristocrats to peasants. My friend’s first and last name is the namesake of the last empiricist, and even from the Rurikovich family through his grandmother (from the Vorontsovs), his paternal grandmother, and his surname from a priestly family, and from his mother’s from a Moscow merchant family lol gathered all classes.
          Read Sharapova and you will understand a lot. hi
          1. 0
            February 10 2024
            his ideas are by no means indisputable
            Just find out where they come from

            It just so happens that I have been involved in budgeting for a large organization for a long time, so you are unlikely to tell me anything new about the budget. Rather, I am a fan of Sharapov (usually these are those who believe that the experience of unsecured emissions a la the American Federal Reserve System, every country can repeat this) I will teach budgeting)
            TsPSh - four classes

            and all my great-grandfathers were able to “for some reason” graduate from universities.
            By the way, individual examples do not cancel the statistics given above, you should read a little about this, you would learn a lot about the relevance of the examples
            1. -1
              February 10 2024
              Quote: N.M.
              Rather, I am a fan of Sharapov (usually these are those who believe that the experience of unsecured emissions a la the American Federal Reserve System, every country can repeat this) I will teach budgeting)

              Pride is the main sin. Especially from not knowing what you are arguing with.
              Sharapov precisely warned the tsar that this theory could only be entrusted to a “pious monarch,” because if it falls into the hands of unworthy people, there will be ... the US Federal Reserve. He was killed six months before the establishment of the Federal Reserve System, on the eve of the election of Woodrow Wilson (a pathetic puppet) as president.
              Quote: N.M.
              and all my great-grandfathers were able to “for some reason” graduate from universities.

              So the great-grandfathers were lucky.
              Even though my great-grandfathers were simpler, in 1992 my program saved the entire oil production industry of the Russian Federation from collapse. Gazprom later adopted it in a pirated manner. And my work at the Leontiev competition (the author of the "Japanese Economic Miracle", South Korean, etc.) should have taken first place... if only I had sent it then. It was appreciated later by the people who organized the competition and evaluated the works (famous and very odious people). The winner from my program got 20% from the edge, and that was enough for him to win. So I'm not speaking from books. I independently formulated Sharapov’s “Theory of Absolute Money” in the summer of 1992, but called it “The True Nature of Money.” And I first heard about Sharapov in 2005 at that same presentation... and I realized that I had once again “invented the wheel” - someone had already done it, and almost 100 years earlier.
              But the next day, as I formulated this theory with an evidence base using a paradoxical example, I was asked to solve one question. He gave the answer immediately within 15 minutes by drawing graphs on the foggy glass. A day later, this program (though under the authorship of another person, my good and very respected friend, otherwise it would not have gone so easily) was enthusiastically accepted, recommended to all companies in the industry and accepted by them. And the brainstorming group that presented it... it was very good for all of them a long time ago, in the top, there were deputy ministers, though for a long time already...
              So I can teach you something too. That's why I recommended The Good Book to you. Its appearance in 2005 was applauded by the person to whom the first person of the state entrusted the reform of the Financial System of the Russian Federation, with the words “Now we have a Theory.”
              True, he was killed a week later. Almost like Sharapova.
              It was a loud incident.
              So the Theory is good for everyone, but very dangerous when implemented under the current conditions on our Planet. hi
              1. +2
                February 10 2024
                Pride is the main sin

                So don’t fall into it and don’t decide for others what they know and what they don’t.
                So the great-grandfathers were lucky

                How is it with Suvorov?
                Once luck, once again luck, God have mercy, you also need skill!
                1. 0
                  February 10 2024
                  Quote: N.M.
                  So don’t fall into it and don’t decide for others what they know and what they don’t.

                  Don't be offended, I didn't mean to offend. Lack of sleep, bad weather, war rumbles outside the window (I live in Donetsk), and then there are memories...
                  But still look through the book, Sharapov wrote interestingly. Especially about how he persuaded Alexander-3 to build the Trans-Siberian Railway and suggested how to do it without going into debt. How he found Putilov - a competent young (apparently relatively) engineer, ready to build factories and provide railway construction, recruit and train people in villages... And how in 8 years they built a highway equivalent to the Pan-American Railway, only in much more difficult climatic and geological conditions . And not in 100 years, as in America, and construction did not result in detriment, but in crazy economic growth, and in all sectors. This is a living story from the first person, a participant and partly the author of those events. It was on the Trans-Siberian Railway that his theory of absolute money was tested (when money does not have its own physical value like coins made of precious metals, but then only coins were in circulation).
                  A little later, but already in the USSR, this experience and methodology was used to finance the 1st Five-Year Plan. The effect was simply stunning, the growth was explosive... Thus, Sharapov's Theory became the key to the success of the Soviet economic model.
                  And in the USA a paper dollar appeared - a perverted model of this Theory.
                  But his name was consigned to oblivion, and purposefully. And there were several reasons.
                  Quote: N.M.
                  Once luck, once again luck, God have mercy, you also need skill!

                  Ability to learn is important, but it depends on luck in what family, in what class and with what social status (if the society is class) a person is born. This is the luck I'm talking about.
                  And my grandfather was born immediately after the REV, at the height of the 1st Russian Revolution in the Northern Urals. But this is according to my mother.
                  1. 0
                    February 11 2024
                    as we see, in those universities more than 50% of students are from workers and peasants. Moreover, there are a quarter of nobles, including personal ones - these are those who, through their labor, became nobility! the rest are commoners, which is not to say that they are “high society”.
                    in universities it’s a little worse, but even there the share of nobles 40% and the share of the lower classes 38% are practically equal, and with commoners the lower classes again have the majority.
                    1. +1
                      February 11 2024
                      The educational system of the Republic of Ingushetia was based on the German one - the best at that time in the World. And yes, talented students from the lower classes received education at the Gymnasium at state expense and, it seems, even with a boarding house.
                      My grandfather was also unlucky in that his adolescence and early youth occurred during the Civil War, so only TsPSh. And as soon as they grew up and got married, they were dispossessed (1928) and taken to the construction sites of Socialism. By the age of 30, my grandfather had lost all his teeth from scurvy, three children died in infancy (all boys)... From the mid-30s it became easier and the rest of the children survived, but all were girls. The only son, the first-born, survived and later became a support for his father. So my grandfather’s higher education did not work out. This is exactly what I meant about luck.
    3. +3
      February 9 2024
      Quote: Comrade
      Russia, in fact, had only just begun to fight in earnest when peace was concluded. Japan by this time was already completely exhausted.

      Dear author, this widely held narrative is nothing more than a persistent myth.

      The three-hundred-page analytical study “The Economic and Financial Situation of Japan After the War of 1904-1905” allows me to confidently state this.

      Can you be a little more detailed? It would be interesting
  2. +8
    February 9 2024
    Russia, in fact, had only just begun to fight in earnest when peace was concluded. Japan by this time was already completely exhausted.
    It reminds me of something, like this: “Seriously, we just started fighting” (c)
    1. +2
      February 10 2024
      Yes, familiar
      "And on enemy soil we will defeat the enemy
      With little blood, with a mighty blow!"
  3. 0
    February 9 2024
    The Russo-Japanese War was lost only thanks to the Russian generals and the weakness of the central government. Stark showed amazing arrogance, although he knew very well about the attack of the Japanese fleet (Russian intelligence did an excellent job). In Manchuria and Port Arthur, among the generals there was a lack of initiative and an eye towards the governor’s headquarters and St. Petersburg, and a fear of making independent decisions. If it were not for General Kondratenko, then Port Arthur would have lasted much less. The appointment of Kuropatkin as commander of the troops in Manchuria was a big mistake. In addition, preventive work was not carried out with “fighters for the freedom of the people” of all stripes and shades. So they organized sabotage wherever they could. In general, it’s about the same as it is now: the generals are indecisive, lack initiative, poorly prepared, think and fight using old standards and methods. In the country, instead of “fiery revolutionaries,” there are crowds of migrants who have become insolent to the extreme and are already beginning to hold marches and rallies in Moscow. Bandits and migrants are hunting SVO fighters throughout Russia. Officials at all levels are mired in theft and corruption. Well, what remains to wait for the Portsmouth Peace? What did the Russian Empire give away, half of Sakhalin it seems?
    1. +12
      February 9 2024
      Quote: fiberboard
      The Russo-Japanese War was lost only thanks to the Russian generals and the weakness of the central government.

      only if? Why did well-trained, professional troops not leave the European part of Russia, although they could have quantitatively and qualitatively influenced the course of the war? What capacity did the supply routes of the warring army have?
      At least find answers to these questions for yourself.
      Quote: fiberboard
      In general, it’s about the same as it is now: the generals are indecisive, lack initiative, poorly prepared, think and fight using old standards and methods.

      Which of the Northern Military District generals do you know personally?
      1. +3
        February 9 2024
        Quote: svp67
        Why did well-trained, professional troops not leave the European part of Russia, although they could have quantitatively and qualitatively influenced the course of the war? What capacity did the supply routes of the warring army have?


        A continuous rail track appeared after the start of traffic on the Circum-Baikal Railway on October 1 (September 18, old style), 1904, and on October 29 (October 16, old style), 1905, it was put into operation in a single-track version with a capacity of seven pairs of trains per day .
        © Russian Railways

        Here you are, gentlemen generals, seven pairs of trains a day - and do not deny yourself anything. And in the first half of the REV - generally three pairs per day. I'm sorry, what? Are you saying that the body will have to be transported at this rate for a month? So then...
        1. +2
          February 9 2024
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Are you saying that the body will have to be transported at this rate for a month?

          It is so.
          But what is better, a personnel corps or the same formation of reservists, half of whom did not even serve in the army?
      2. 0
        February 9 2024
        Quote: svp67
        Quote: fiberboard
        The Russo-Japanese War was lost only thanks to the Russian generals and the weakness of the central government.

        only if? Why did well-trained, professional troops not leave the European part of Russia, although they could have quantitatively and qualitatively influenced the course of the war? What capacity did the supply routes of the warring army have?
        At least find answers to these questions for yourself.
        Quote: fiberboard
        In general, it’s about the same as it is now: the generals are indecisive, lack initiative, poorly prepared, think and fight using old standards and methods.

        Which of the Northern Military District generals do you know personally?

        And what, for example, should I be personally acquainted with Serdyukov? Or with what’s his head of logistics, who was transferred to another position?
        1. -1
          February 10 2024
          Quote from Kartograph
          What, for example, should I be personally acquainted with Serdyukov?

          Slightly higher than Witte ACCUSED in that heRothschild agent, scoundrel and scoundrel- built ships in Russia instead of building them abroad.
          Based on this logic, Serdyukov was MUST order all ships abroad - where the deadlines do not shift to the right
          From such tricks.
          1. 0
            February 13 2024
            Quote: your1970
            Quote from Kartograph
            What, for example, should I be personally acquainted with Serdyukov?

            Slightly higher than Witte ACCUSED in that heRothschild agent, scoundrel and scoundrel- built ships in Russia instead of building them abroad.
            Based on this logic, Serdyukov was MUST order all ships abroad - where the deadlines do not shift to the right
            From such tricks.

            Your reasoning is strange. China and India, having a powerful shipbuilding industry, did not hesitate to order corvettes, aircraft carriers and submarines from us. But we are different, we will build a frigate in five years
            1. 0
              February 14 2024
              Quote from Kartograph
              Your reasoning is strange. China and India, having a powerful shipbuilding industry, did not hesitate to order
              once again - based on Your words = Serdyukov is great, and everyone who criticizes him for the Mistral are narrow-minded people
              1. 0
                February 14 2024
                Quote: your1970
                Quote from Kartograph
                Your reasoning is strange. China and India, having a powerful shipbuilding industry, did not hesitate to order
                once again - based on Your words = Serdyukov is great, and everyone who criticizes him for the Mistral are narrow-minded people

                Did I write somewhere that all ships must be ordered abroad? Our USC is now weaker than in the Russian Empire, where in the 10 years before WWI they were honored to build two dozen destroyers and 7 battleships.
                1. 0
                  February 14 2024
                  Quote from Kartograph
                  our USC is now weaker than in the Russian Empire,

                  First you write that shipyards physically cannot build better and faster.
                  Then write
                  Quote from Kartograph
                  China and India with a powerful shipbuilding industry don't hesitate to order from us
                  and then you are surprised by the conclusion reached
                  Quote from Kartograph
                  Я did he write it somewhere? that all ships must be ordered abroad
                  in relation to ships that we have never built at all in principle...
                  You decide...
                  1. 0
                    February 14 2024
                    Quote: your1970
                    Quote from Kartograph
                    our USC is now weaker than in the Russian Empire,

                    First you write that shipyards physically cannot build better and faster.
                    Then write
                    Quote from Kartograph
                    China and India with a powerful shipbuilding industry don't hesitate to order from us
                    and then you are surprised by the conclusion reached
                    Quote from Kartograph
                    Я did he write it somewhere? that all ships must be ordered abroad
                    in relation to ships that we have never built at all in principle...
                    You decide...

                    I write clearly and clearly that we can build ourselves, we need to build ourselves, what we can’t or don’t have time to do, you can buy from China, they are making good frigates now. Otherwise, we will continue to whine that we don’t have a fleet and we will wait until the Soviet legacy is complete will rot
                    1. 0
                      February 14 2024
                      Quote from Kartograph
                      I write clearly and clearly that we can build ourselves, we need to build ourselvesthat we can’t or don’t have time,you can buy from China,
                      that is, Serdyukov purchasing Mistrals - which we didn't know how to build- was rights?
                      If China were the manufacturer, would it be great?
                      1. 0
                        February 14 2024
                        Quote: your1970
                        Quote from Kartograph
                        I write clearly and clearly that we can build ourselves, we need to build ourselvesthat we can’t or don’t have time,you can buy from China,
                        that is, Serdyukov purchasing Mistrals - which we didn't know how to build- was rights?
                        If China were the manufacturer, would it be great?

                        In principle, yes. What is more important to you: pouring billions into your USC with zero emissions or having ships?
                      2. 0
                        February 14 2024
                        Quote from Kartograph
                        Quote: your1970
                        Quote from Kartograph
                        I write clearly and clearly that we can build ourselves, we need to build ourselvesthat we can’t or don’t have time,you can buy from China,
                        that is, Serdyukov purchasing Mistrals - which we didn't know how to build- was rights?
                        If China were the manufacturer, would it be great?

                        In principle, yes. What is more important to you: pouring billions into your USC with zero emissions or having ships?

                        Witte, who ordered the ships in Russia, is a scoundrel and a scoundrel.
                        The furniture maker who ordered ships abroad is a scoundrel and a scoundrel.
                        Where should an official go in such a fork? The third is covering...
                        I remember how people here were banging their heads on the floor, “What did you order from the infidels???”
    2. +1
      February 10 2024
      preventive work was not carried out with fighters for the freedom of the people of all stripes and shades. So they organized sabotage wherever they could

      absolutely right.
      by that The socialists - moral monsters - did not care about the death of the Russian soldier, the main thing was to organize a revolution with Japanese money
      True, there were also decent people among them who refused Judas money
      Ariadna Vladimirovna Tyrkova-Williams memories of
      Pyotr Berngardovich Struve (1870–1944) - economist, philosopher, publicist. Nobleman, son of Astrakhan (1859–1861) and Perm (1865–70) governors B.V. Struve (1827–89). Extraordinary professor since 1913 He taught at the St. Petersburg (Petrograd) Polytechnic Institute, at the Bestuzhev courses.
      In the 1890s. one of the leaders of “legal Marxism. Participant of the 4th Congress of the 2nd International (London, 1896), author of the RSDLP Manifesto (1898).
      “Yulia Grigorievna and I were sitting upstairs in the library, and suddenly we heard a scream. Pyotr Berngardovich was shouting at someone on the stairs in a wild voice. Then there was a loud stomp on the steps. He was seeing someone off, or rather sending them away. The front door slammed noisily. Again the stomping on the steps. Red-haired and disheveled, Struve flew towards us:
      - Nina! Where is Nina?...
      - Pyotr Berngardovich, what happened?
      Without looking at us, without answering [...] he ran out of the library, looking for his wife. He invariably needed her, in all incidents, large and small. She was not at home. He needed to vent his worries to someone. Again he flew into the library and, circling around the cramped room, told us that an acquaintance had come to see him socialist-revolutionary. As far as I remember, his last name was Maksimov. He came to offer Struve money on behalf of the Japanese to expand revolutionary work.
      Struve jumped at Yulia Grigorievna and me and, shaking his fists, yelled:
      - To me, you understand, should I offer Japanese money?! How dare he? Scoundrel!
      The intonations were familiar to me. This is how Struve screamed on Kazan Square, standing in the ranks of those arrested.”
  4. +1
    February 9 2024
    Quote: fiberboard
    The Russo-Japanese War was lost only thanks to the generals and the weakness of the central government

    But what about the “hat-kicking sentiments” and the backwardness of the fleet? They also played a role. By the way, it is very reminiscent of today's realities...
  5. +5
    February 9 2024
    for some reason, the defense of Sevastopol during the Russian-Turkish War was introduced to the rank of saints and constantly mentioned as a heroic event, but the defense of Port Arthur during the Russo-Japanese War has not yet been assigned such a “rank”. Although, probably, the defenders of Port Arthur were no less heroes... I understand that Nicholas II, his Court, the decrepit parquet Generals and the same Admiralty were punished for that lost war twelve years later, receiving October 1917, but why “forget” "for the heroic defense of Port Arthur, punish the soldiers, sailors and officers of the Russian army and navy who heroically defended Port Arthur and the Far East with honor, just as their predecessors very recently defended Sevastopol and Crimea...
    I can assume that the author of the article is wrong in asserting that the Japanese did not take into account the carrying capacity of the Siberian Railway. The Japanese, first of all, did not take into account the adventurous nature of the expedition of the Russian squadron from the Baltic to the Far East, which Rozhdestvensky also led there. The Nikolaev Admiralty thought that the Japanese were either fools and would not know where the huge Russian squadron had left the Baltic. And the Japanese thought that the Russian Admiralty were really such fools that they would actually send such a squadron around the world, so that it would actually immediately enter into battle where the Japanese fleet, rested and at full speed, would be waiting for it. And when the Japanese saw and understood this adventure of the Admiralty, they immediately took a lot into account... and in the end it turned out that Rozhdestvensky led the squadron
    not along the Korea Strait, but along the Tsushima Strait, that is, closer to the Japanese coast and even further in distance to Port Arthur, where the Japanese fleet was waiting for her.
    By the way, Nicholas II sent his general Stessel, who was sentenced to death for the surrender of Port Arthur, to prison for ten years, but after a year of serving Stessel there, he was released and returned his admiral ranks, awards and positions. Well, not the entire General Staff and not the entire Admiralty should be put in prison. The gentle “their highnesses” are not used to this. It’s so good that the Admiralty has not yet thought of holding annual all-fleet naval parades on the Neva...!!!
    1. +5
      February 9 2024
      Regarding Sevastopol and Port Arthur, I completely agree with you.
      But as for the 2nd squadron... It was still sent while Port Arthur was still holding out and there was hope for the unification of the squadrons. In this situation, our forces were superior to the enemy.
      Another thing is why they didn’t stop it after the fall of Port Arthur....
    2. +6
      February 9 2024
      Quote: north 2
      Nicholas II sent his general Stessel, sentenced to death for the surrender of Port Arthur, to prison for ten years, but after a year of serving Stessel there, he was released and returned his admiral ranks, awards and positions. Well, not the entire General Staff and not the entire Admiralty should be put in prison.

      The investigation showed that Niki-2 himself, his uncle, Witte and a number of other relatives should have been put on the throne (and not on the throne). But the main character of shame is Nikolai No. 2 himself. That is why Stessel, Rozhdestvensky and others involved were released. Which with the forces that were at their disposal, with the amount of shells and other supplies, with the completely unfortified (but with docks, berths, warehouses and all the infrastructure) newly built port city of Dalniy. Which the Japanese took without a fight and made their main base on Liaodong.
      Who stole funds for the construction of ships for the Pacific Fleet? Isn't it the beloved uncle of the passion-bearer king? Didn't he translate this into carousing and diamonds for Kshesinskaya?
      Why didn’t they order FOUR armored ships (two battleships and two Asama-class armored cruisers) from the USA from Crump?? By invitation, he spent more than a year in Russia coordinating the order. But instead, they almost threw him away with the order, and when he began to be indignant about the time wasted, they gave him the order... BUT! For one (!) battleship and one armored (!) cruiser. But Kramp could build, and on time, FOUR battleships according to the Retvizan\"Prince Potemkin" project!
      What if they had chosen not a French project for the Borodino series, but again the Prince Potemkin project? After all, in this case the ships would be built FASTER (!), CHEAPERER, and on time. They were simpler in execution, but more effective in terms of fire performance of auxiliary artillery. And this was seen and understood in the Admiralty. But they didn’t intend to involve the French at all. For what bribes and under whose patronage did they refuse Crump, but chose the awkward project "Borodino" based on "Tsarevich"?
      Questions .
      So they didn’t find the culprits, because the investigation was directed at the king’s relatives. And to the most crowned klutz.
      "The ruler is weak and crafty
      Lazy dandy, enemy of labor."
      1. 0
        February 9 2024
        There is also this “murky” story with the purchase of cruisers built for Latin Americans. The king's uncle was also involved there. And they didn’t buy it because this guy demanded a good kickback from the sellers. As a result, the Japanese bought four cruisers. If they find out about the kickback, they give the beneficiary the opportunity to commit hara-kiri.
        1. +6
          February 9 2024
          Quote: fiberboard
          As a result, the Japanese bought four cruisers.

          There were two of these cruisers - "Nishin" and "Kasuga".
      2. +2
        February 9 2024
        And the main question is who chose Port Arthur for the fleet in the first place? Which none of the admirals who visited the Far East considered it a base for the fleet.
        Quote: bayard
        Why didn’t they order FOUR armored ships (two battleships and two Asama-class armored cruisers) from the USA from Crump??

        You may also ask why negotiations on the acquisition of “exotic cruisers” - “Italians” flying the flags of South American countries - fell through.
        Quote: bayard
        What if they had chosen not a French project for the Borodino series, but again the Prince Potemkin project? After all, in this case the ships would be built FASTER (!), CHEAPERER, and on time.

        Are you serious? Not a single ship from state-owned factories can be built on time and cheaply. The only exception is Baltic Plant, which was allowed to maintain the rules of a private plant. For the rest, the official routine and petty savings are multiplied by the insatiable itch of the “eagle chasers” to improve not only projects, but solutions already embodied in hardware. Moreover, there are a lot of these irrepressible individuals in the fleet. And above all this reigns the Ministry of Transport and Communications, which works at the pace of a sloth, but without whose sanction not a single change can be made to the project.
        And after the drawings, the stage of their implementation in metal begins - and then it turns out that the domestic industry cannot do this - and the order begins abroad. And then another improvement. And so on until the ship was delivered to the fleet.
        Only one thing could save the situation - the serial construction of ships according to the design that has remained unchanged since its approval. But... no son - this is fantastic. The diversity of ships within one project is a glorious tradition of our fleet, carried through the centuries. Both "Peresvetychi" and heavy nuclear missile cruisers and aircraft-carrying cruisers.
        1. +4
          February 9 2024
          Quote: Alexey RA
          And the main question is who chose Port Arthur for the fleet in the first place? Which none of the admirals who visited the Far East considered it a base for the fleet.

          And yet, Port Arthur was chosen as the base of the Pacific Fleet, in which they didn’t even bother to deepen the fairway... build a dock, and even coastal batteries were not deployed, except for Zolotaya Gora and Electric Cliff.
          At the same time, Witte found a lot of money for the development of the Dalny TRADE port. Where a dock was built, and a whole city from scratch and with all the infrastructure. But Dalny was not strengthened with coastal batteries and a sufficient garrison was not installed.
          And so everywhere and in everything there are only setups. Of all the available options, the worst was invariably chosen.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          You may also ask why negotiations on the acquisition of “exotic cruisers” - “Italians” flying the flags of South American countries - fell through.

          Well, this was a gamble from the very beginning, because they became interested in purchasing them after the start of the war and it was impossible to officially purchase them. But it was precisely for the meeting of these cruisers that the 2nd squadron trudged around Africa in order to meet with a detachment of cruisers at an agreed place off its (Africa’s) western coast. They also carried crews with them... which were sent home on coal miners during a long stop near Madagascar.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Not a single ship from state-owned factories can be built on time and cheaply.

          The Borodino-class battleships were unnecessarily complex. Auxiliary artillery in six (!) towers was not justified by the recoil of combat effectiveness (it even worsened it - due to the cramped space and inconvenience for crews, the rate of fire of these guns was lower than that of the same casemate-mounted guns on other types of ships), but it seriously complicated the design of the ships. made the project unreasonably expensive and greatly extended the construction period. The "Prince Potemkin" project (only with vehicles of 15 - 000 hp, like the "Borodino") was much simpler in execution, had the best armor at that time, and were better armed (16 six-inch guns versus 000 " Borodino" with a lower rate of fire) and therefore such battleships would be built much faster. And they would certainly have made it in time for the start of the war.
          I repeat:
          - faster,
          - cheaper ,
          - better ,
          - on time .
          1. +3
            February 9 2024
            Quote: bayard
            Well, this was a gamble from the very beginning, because they became interested in purchasing them after the start of the war and it was impossible to officially purchase them.

            Maybe. With joint actions of Morved and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. But, apparently, after the Ministry of Foreign Affairs imposed Port Arthur on the fleet, the sailors were somewhat disappointed in the abilities of diplomats. smile And we decided to do everything ourselves.
            The purchase stage of the fleet worked fine:
            On May 16, 1904, in St. Petersburg, representatives of the companies Vossidlo and Co. and Flint and Co., on the one hand, and the Main Naval Headquarters of Russia, on the other, signed an agreement, according to which the firms were authorized to buy at the expense of the Russian government Argentine cruisers "General Belgrano" and "Pueyrre-don" for 1 f. Art. (800 million rubles) and the Chilean cruisers Esmeralda and Chacabuco for 000 f. Art. (RUB 17 million). This amount included the delivery of the ships to the Azores, where they were to be handed over to Russia, the cost of one and a half sets of shells and three torpedoes for each torpedo tube. If the intermediaries purchased ships with incomplete ammunition, then Russia refused the purchase. The cruisers were to be delivered to the Azores no later than July 1, 400. Russian crews were sent there on ships chartered at the expense of intermediary companies. For freight, coal, delivery of teams and other related expenses, the Russian government paid an additional 000 pounds. Art. for every pair of cruisers. Upon presentation of a certificate from the most reputable insurance company, Lloyd's, stating that the hulls, engines and boilers of the cruisers could withstand a circumnavigation of the world (contracting firms also had to take care of obtaining the certificate), the Russian agent accepted the ships without further testing. After this, the intermediaries received 13,2% of the amount specified in the contract, immediately after the conclusion of the contract, deposited in the Rothschild banking house in Paris with notification for whom the money was specifically intended. Then the cruisers were sent to Libau, and if there were no serious breakdowns along the way, Russia paid the remaining 1% through the same bank. At the same time, it was stipulated that the Russian government undertakes not to enter into an agreement on the purchase of Chilean and Argentine cruisers with other companies except through the mediation of Flint and Vossidlo.

            But the fleet completely failed the diplomatic cover of the deal, deciding not to contact the Foreign Ministry.
            The naval command also turned a blind eye to the fact that the agreement did not mention three more cruisers that Chile and Argentina agreed to sell; It remained a mystery who and under what flag would carry out the ferrying of cruisers to the Azores. Instead of involving specialists in international law in drawing up the agreement or at least consulting with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Naval Ministry considered the operation a purely internal matter and relied entirely on the declared diplomatic experience of the intermediaries, which significantly complicated the implementation of the planned action.

            Source: S.A. Gladkikh. "Exotic cruisers". Gangut, No. 36-37.
            1. +1
              February 9 2024
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Source: S.A. Gladkikh. "Exotic cruisers" Gangut, no.

              I read, and not only that.
              The trouble is that with the best course of the process for us, the probability of a positive outcome still did not exceed 50%, and most likely 30%. England factor. England could not have been unaware of such attempts and put pressure on both sellers and intermediaries. As a result, for us it turned out to be an outright scam, and the Second Squadron, instead of going non-stop through Suez to Arthur, trudged around Africa in the hope of a rendezvous with the “seven cruisers”. Golden time was lost.
              If Rozhdestvensky had gone straight to Arthur, he would have had enough time before his fall and the rendezvous with the 1st squadron could well have taken place. Let’s not forget that the Japanese armored cruisers were guarding the Vladivostok detachment, Togo’s battleships were worn out by constantly being at sea and he would not have been able to muster all his forces against Rozhdestvensky. And in the event of a rendezvous between two squadrons, the balance of power changed radically. And the Japanese would no longer be able to resist them on the open sea. Consequently, immediately a march to Dalniy, the destruction of the supply base, and the cessation of supplies to the Japanese near Arthur from the sea. And support with artillery fire from the sea of ​​Port Arthur by part of the allocated forces (a few cruisers and slow-moving battleships are enough). Next - the march of the main forces of the Pacific Fleet to Formosa (there was an operational base of the Japanese fleet), and from there to Chemulpo and other Korean ports - the suppression of supplies to the Japanese ground army on the continent.
              And the constant search for the Japanese fleet on the high seas.
              Connecting the surviving cruisers of the Vladivostok detachment to the blockade of Korean ports.
              Delivery of a couple of fresh divisions to Arthur by sea from Russia (the sea route is clear, supremacy at sea is ensured.
              And the organization of a naval blockade of Japan with cruiser raids on Japanese ports, shelling with retreat. Exhaustion of the enemy.
              And so on until the RI ground army is completely ready for a decisive offensive and the defeat of Japanese forces on the continent.
              Transferring the war to the Japanese islands.
              Inclusion in the Republic of Ingushetia of the Kuril Islands (then belonged to Japan) and about. Hokkaido.
              Forcing peace/surrender with payment of indemnities, recognition of annexations and disarmament.
              Since then, the Japanese fleet has been prohibited.

              This could have happened if Rozhdestvensky had not wandered around Africa.
              His ships would be fresh, the crews would not be so exhausted.
              And there might not have been a reason for revolution either.
              1. 0
                February 9 2024
                Quote: bayard
                The trouble is that with the best course of the process for us, the probability of a positive outcome still did not exceed 50%, and most likely 30%. England factor.

                The same England from which, during the REV, the turbine destroyer was purchased and the Rurik II was ordered. And which actively sold rangefinders for our ships? wink
                Quote: bayard
                England could not have been unaware of such attempts and put pressure on both sellers and intermediaries.

                Right. Because from the very beginning, the State Medical School had to work together with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. And don’t delay the matter right up to the Second Squadron, when only the lazy didn’t kick the Empire.
                And ideally, it was necessary to work, for example, through neutral Montenegro - a loan for the purchase of ships (with a kickback) and the further transfer of ships to allied Russia. smile
                It would be cheaper than defeat in the war.
                Quote: bayard
                Let’s not forget that the Japanese armored cruisers were guarding the Vladivostok detachment, Togo’s battleships were worn out by constantly being at sea and he would not have been able to muster all his forces against Rozhdestvensky.

                And what would stop him from doing everything as in real life? How many combat-ready ships of the line would remain in the 1st TOE by the likely arrival of Rozhdestvensky? Especially considering the departure of sailors and guns to the land front.
                If I had scored Togo for the 1st TOE, she still has nowhere to go, and she won’t go far. And he would have met Rozhdestvensky’s forces in the Yellow Sea, somewhere on the same parallel.
                Quote: bayard
                Consequently, immediately a march to Dalniy, the destruction of the supply base, and the cessation of supplies to the Japanese near Arthur from the sea. And support with artillery fire from the sea of ​​Port Arthur by part of the allocated forces (a few cruisers and low-speed battleships are enough). Next - the march of the main forces of the Pacific Fleet to Formosa (there was an operational base of the Japanese fleet), and from there to Chemulpo and other Korean ports - the suppression of supplies to the Japanese ground army on the continent.
                And the constant search for the Japanese fleet on the high seas.

                If we use it like this, where will we repair it? In the only dock? But there are also issues of replenishing ammunition and replacing worn-out guns (for example, the Empire does not have 120 mm and 203/45 guns at all).
                The 2nd TOE is a single combat squadron. After which she turns into a headache for the base she comes to. smile
                1. +3
                  February 9 2024
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  The same England from which, during the REV, the turbine destroyer was purchased and the Rurik II was ordered.

                  I don’t remember anything about the turbine destroyer, but “Rurik-2” was designed on the eve of the RYAV (they decided to experiment with a high aspect ratio hull and reinforced weapons) and a ship of such a degree of novelty, with such revolutionary forms, they decided to build at the best shipyard, i.e. in England (at that time we didn’t even have a dock this long). Negotiations may have taken place on the eve and even during the nuclear war, but the order was still made after the war.
                  And the rangefinders... for the second squadron they almost seemed to be obtained through smuggling.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Ideally, it was necessary to work, for example, through neutral Montenegro - a loan for the purchase of ships (with a kickback) and the further transfer of ships to allied Russia.
                  It would be cheaper than defeat in the war.

                  What “on the eve of the war” are you writing about, if our brightest wise men, exactly on the eve of the war, abandoned the “Nishina” and “Kosuga” (at that time they bore proud Latin American names), which were offered to us by the owner of the shipyard that built them? He offered bonus shells for them, and mediation for the ransom of their cruisers from Argentina (and Chile). Quite officially, legally and BEFORE the start of the REV.
                  But lovers of ballerinas and parades proudly and reluctantly refused this - they say these cruisers do not meet the needs of the Russian Navy
                  Yes, if we had only bought “Nishin” and “Kasuga”, this would have seriously changed the balance of power. The Yaps would have two fewer cruisers, and Rozhdestvensky’s squadron (they still couldn’t keep up with Arthur before the REV) would have two more armored cruisers. And he would have had 9 (nine) full-fledged ships in his battle line: four “Borodinets”, “Oslyabya”, two “Garibaldians”, “Sisoi the Great” and “Navarin”. . The Japanese, after the loss of two battleships, would have only 10 armored ships for all places and cases.
                  But since your Lordship and Majesty also loved these two cruisers, why would you even dream about the Chilean and Argentine ones with the purchase of the “thieves” method. About...loved this too.
                  1. 0
                    February 9 2024
                    Quote: bayard
                    I don’t remember anything about the turbine destroyer

                    About his purchase was in that same article by S.A. Gladkikh. "Exotic cruisers"
                    Quote: bayard
                    Negotiations may have taken place on the eve and even during the nuclear war, but the order was still made after the war.

                    On May 31, 1905, just two weeks after Tsushima, a contract for the construction of an armored cruiser was signed between the Russian Navy Ministry and the British Vickers company.
                    © S.E. Vinogradov, A.D. Fedechkin. Rurik is the flagship of the Baltic Fleet.
                    1. -1
                      February 9 2024
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      On May 31, 1905, just two weeks after Tsushima, a contract for the construction of an armored cruiser was signed between the Russian Navy Ministry and the British Vickers company.

                      This only means that by that time the Republic of Ingushetia had capitulated to Britain and admitted defeat in the Great Game.
                      But the cruiser really turned out to be a feast for the eyes as a platform - with a VI of over 17 tons and a vehicle power of 000 hp, it produced 20 knots. But the composition of the weapons... 000" + 21,5" ... and how to shoot here? When are all the bursts the same?
                  2. 0
                    February 14 2024
                    Quote: bayard
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The same England from which, during the REV, the turbine destroyer was purchased and the Rurik II was ordered.

                    I don’t remember anything about the turbine destroyer, but “Rurik-2” was designed on the eve of the RYAV (they decided to experiment with a high aspect ratio hull and reinforced weapons) and a ship of such a degree of novelty, with such revolutionary forms, they decided to build at the best shipyard, i.e. in England (at that time we didn’t even have a dock this long). Negotiations may have taken place on the eve and even during the nuclear war, but the order was still made after the war.
                    And the rangefinders... for the second squadron they almost seemed to be obtained through smuggling.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Ideally, it was necessary to work, for example, through neutral Montenegro - a loan for the purchase of ships (with a kickback) and the further transfer of ships to allied Russia.
                    It would be cheaper than defeat in the war.

                    What “on the eve of the war” are you writing about, if our brightest wise men, exactly on the eve of the war, abandoned the “Nishina” and “Kosuga” (at that time they bore proud Latin American names), which were offered to us by the owner of the shipyard that built them? He offered bonus shells for them, and mediation for the ransom of their cruisers from Argentina (and Chile). Quite officially, legally and BEFORE the start of the REV.
                    But lovers of ballerinas and parades proudly and reluctantly refused this - they say these cruisers do not meet the needs of the Russian Navy
                    Yes, if we had only bought “Nishin” and “Kasuga”, this would have seriously changed the balance of power. The Yaps would have two fewer cruisers, and Rozhdestvensky’s squadron (they still couldn’t keep up with Arthur before the REV) would have two more armored cruisers. And he would have had 9 (nine) full-fledged ships in his battle line: four “Borodinets”, “Oslyabya”, two “Garibaldians”, “Sisoi the Great” and “Navarin”. . The Japanese, after the loss of two battleships, would have only 10 armored ships for all places and cases.
                    But since your Lordship and Majesty also loved these two cruisers, why would you even dream about the Chilean and Argentine ones with the purchase of the “thieves” method. About...loved this too.

                    Again, your conclusions. I repeat once again, no one expected the war to start soon, the shipbuilding program was laid out for 1906-7. By this time, all the Borodino residents should have been in Arthur.
                    But the first ship could have sacrificed itself, rather than rush back and forth. Even some exchange of ships would have helped Rozhdestvensky
                    1. 0
                      February 14 2024
                      Quote from Kartograph
                      , no one expected the war to start soon, the shipbuilding program was planned for 1906-7. By this time all the Borodino residents should have been in Arthur.

                      Who would be waiting for us?? They didn't even wait.
                      The fact that Japan's shipbuilding program would end in 1903 was known well in advance. But our shipyards were guaranteed not to keep up, even the time-adjusted program guaranteed the appearance of the 2nd toe no earlier than 1905. By the same date, the fortification and equipping of Port Arthur with coastal guns should have been completed. So by the middle/end of 1903 there could only be 3 Poltava and two or three overexposures in Arthur. In order to somehow solve this problem, it was decided to order ships from foreign shipyards. But Witte's intervention greatly reduced the number of ships ordered. So Crump (USA) was ready to build two battleships and two armored cruisers by the required deadline. We only ordered the Retvizan and the armored Varyag. The French were ready to build two armored ships. But instead of two battleships, they ordered the Tsarevich and the Bayan, truncated in terms of VI and armament (but well armored). Well, three different types of armored cruisers in Germany. Although the Shihau company was counting on ordering 4 such cruisers with the transfer of all documentation for the construction of 6 more in Russia.
                      Every course of events has its own rhythm, and RI did not fall into this rhythm. If Japan had waited at least another half a year since the beginning of the war, the first pair of Borodino residents could have strengthened the 1st toe, and “Oslyabya” would have been there too. But the fact of the matter is that England demanded that the Japanese start back in 1903, immediately after the last ships built arrived in Japan. And so that the Japanese did not delay, US banks gave them a large loan for the war. The British helped buy "Nishin" "Kasuga". After such a bungling with the abandonment of the Garibaldians, our chances became even more sour. Immediately after the arrival of these cruisers in Japan, Togo attacked Arturi and was blocked in Chemulpo by the Varyag and Koreets.
                      1. 0
                        February 14 2024
                        Quote: bayard
                        Quote from Kartograph
                        , no one expected the war to start soon, the shipbuilding program was planned for 1906-7. By this time all the Borodino residents should have been in Arthur.

                        Who would be waiting for us?? They didn't even wait.
                        The fact that Japan's shipbuilding program would end in 1903 was known well in advance. But our shipyards were guaranteed not to keep up, even the time-adjusted program guaranteed the appearance of the 2nd toe no earlier than 1905. By the same date, the fortification and equipping of Port Arthur with coastal guns should have been completed. So by the middle/end of 1903 there could only be 3 Poltava and two or three overexposures in Arthur. In order to somehow solve this problem, it was decided to order ships from foreign shipyards. But Witte's intervention greatly reduced the number of ships ordered. So Crump (USA) was ready to build two battleships and two armored cruisers by the required deadline. We only ordered the Retvizan and the armored Varyag. The French were ready to build two armored ships. But instead of two battleships, they ordered the Tsarevich and the Bayan, truncated in terms of VI and armament (but well armored). Well, three different types of armored cruisers in Germany. Although the Shihau company was counting on ordering 4 such cruisers with the transfer of all documentation for the construction of 6 more in Russia.
                        Every course of events has its own rhythm, and RI did not fall into this rhythm. If Japan had waited at least another half a year since the beginning of the war, the first pair of Borodino residents could have strengthened the 1st toe, and “Oslyabya” would have been there too. But the fact of the matter is that England demanded that the Japanese start back in 1903, immediately after the last ships built arrived in Japan. And so that the Japanese did not delay, US banks gave them a large loan for the war. The British helped buy "Nishin" "Kasuga". After such a bungling with the abandonment of the Garibaldians, our chances became even more sour. Immediately after the arrival of these cruisers in Japan, Togo attacked Arturi and was blocked in Chemulpo by the Varyag and Koreets.

                        Wars don’t start out of nowhere. There is a reason for everything. Thus, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was preceded by US restrictions on the supply of oil and other strategic materials. The attack on Port Arthur was preceded by failed negotiations on zones of influence in Manchuria. In addition:
                        In January, Kuropatkin accused V.K. Plehve of helping to start a war, to which he replied: “To hold the revolution, we need a small victorious war.”
                        That is, Russia, represented by its ruling class, did not consider Japan a serious adversary.
                        Victory in the war, or in Manchuria, could have been achieved without a fleet. This is what the 1945 war showed.
                      2. 0
                        February 15 2024
                        Quote from Kartograph
                        That is, Russia, represented by its ruling class, did not consider Japan a serious adversary.

                        That's for sure . Especially the crowned and court Sebarites. For only a drug addict or a madman could send Rozhdestvensky from Madagascar (and especially from Cam Ranh) to break through to Vladivostok. And when the post-war investigation began, in any particular case, to reach their highest and most luminous Folly, almost all charges against the participants in those events were dropped. And Witte simply immediately fled abroad. From responsibility.

                        Quote from Kartograph
                        Victory in the war, or in Manchuria, could have been achieved without a fleet. This is what the 1945 war showed.

                        Here it was much more difficult, and precisely in 1904, when the Circum-Baikal Railway was just being built at Stakhanov’s pace. There were too few troops in Arthur and Manchuria, and there were too few combat supplies for the troops. Especially shells for field artillery. Japan had a mobilized army and they had no problems with supplies. At sea, no one stopped them from accumulating forces and providing logistics.
                        In 1905, our troops in Manchuria had already accumulated sufficient forces, but for supplies there was only ONE narrow-gauge branch of the CER, so supplies for the offensive also had to be accumulated. And during this time, Japan would have completed the capture of our Sakhalin, Kamchatka, attacked Vladivostok or landed troops in Primorye, stretching our ground forces in different directions.
                        No, it was precisely in that war that its success was decided precisely by dominance at sea.
                        And in 1945, Japan practically no longer had a fleet (like ours in the Far East), but they had a double-track wide gauge Trans-Siberian Railway and the best battle-hardened land army in the world.
                        The beginning of the loss of the war to Japan happened when, having incorrectly assessed the intentions and capabilities of the enemy (including his allies, of course), the Republic of Ingushetia decided NOT to link its own plans for strengthening our forces in the Far East to plans for the rearmament of the army and navy of Japan. That is, already at the level of 1895-1896.
                        In 1898, they already realized that they had missed the boat and began ordering ships abroad. But the omnipresent Witte minimized the impact of these efforts and as a result we got everything we got. Including useless shells and explosives in them.
                    2. 0
                      February 14 2024
                      Quote from Kartograph
                      But the first one could have sacrificed herself

                      In no case, Arthur was holding on to her. And they could not take the battle without two new battleships.
                      Quote from Kartograph
                      Even some exchange of ships would be of help to Rozhdestvensky

                      Rozhdestvensky came to the rescue, and was not a self-sufficient force. The Arthurians already inflicted stunning damage on Togo, sinking two of his battleships with mines. If it weren’t for our Petropavlovsk, which was soon blown up with Makarov on board, then after repairing our battleships we would have had a good chance in a battle with the main forces of Togo. Our five full-fledged battleships + two overexposures and the Bayan provided 8 armored ships of the battle line. Against 4 battleships + a maximum of 5 armored cruisers of Togo (another 3 armored cruisers guarded the Vladivostok detachment). 8 versus 9, but with a serious advantage in our favor in terms of the main caliber. So it would be possible to fight, especially with Makarov. But Makarov died along with the battleship. And with 7 ships it was possible to fight only under the cover of coastal batteries. But it was quite possible to wait for Rozhdestvensky... If he walked straight towards them. Having also 7 battleships, including the Oslyabya.
                      But he went around Africa, did not meet the cruiser, killed the ships' engines, exhausted the crews and was late!
                      And here is the key - if “Nishin and “Kasuga” were with us, Rozhdestvensky would have gone straight to Arthur, and even without meeting the 1st Toe, he easily (although most likely with a fight) went to Arthur on his own. with Togo on an equal footing!! With one of your squadrons!
                      But it was Witte who did not allow this to be made possible. He detained the Oslyabya in Suez, preventing it from coming to Arthur, he did not allow the purchase of the Garibaldians, he did not allow Rozhdestvensky to go straight to Arthur with a forced march, promising him “exotic cruisers”.
                      After this, it is not surprising that Rozhestvensky threw binoculars in front of Tsushima.

                      We finish the analysis. RI could not win that war precisely because of this composition and quality of power:
                      - the king who played dumbass and didn’t control anyone,
                      - an august uncle who was only interested in money (big money) and ballerinas,
                      - and Witte, who uncontrollably weaved his machinations.
                2. +1
                  February 9 2024
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  And what would stop him from doing everything as in real life? How many combat-ready ships of the line would remain in the 1st TOE by the likely arrival of Rozhdestvensky?

                  Exactly as many as entered the Yellow Sea for a breakthrough. Only the Bayan would most likely still be intact without being blown up by a mine.
                  And yet in the Yellow Sea the scales of fate wavered.
                  Rozhdestvensky has the same number (7 armored ships of the battle line).
                  Only now the 2nd squadron would arrive, not exhausted with worn-out vehicles and algae on its belly, but fresh, without delay - through Suez and the Indian Ocean, without long stops near Madagascar and Cam Ranh. Right at the moment when the main forces of Togo were already worn out by constant services and hanging out in the roadstead near Formosa. And without any experience of combat in the Yellow Sea. And is it important .
                  And the Vladivostok detachment has not yet received a beating in a battle with enemy armored cruisers, and has not suffered losses. And he had to be restrained.
                  Do you understand? That would have to be torn into THREE widely separated directions. But you can’t leave it unattended - they’ll go to sea even from Vladik, even from Arthur, and attack the light forces covering the supply of ground forces. It would be necessary to leave at least three armored cruisers there...
                  And?
                  There remain from 7 to 9 ships in Togo (one or two will definitely be under repair by that time, albeit for a short time) versus 7-8 in Arthur and 7 in Rozhdestvensky. Despite the fact that in terms of main caliber we have an advantage in each group of ships.
                  Tense?
                  So imagine that with the approach of Rozhdestvensky’s squadron (and only the combat core + a high-speed cruiser for reconnaissance are coming), the Arthurian squadron enters the outer roadstead ...
                  What should Togo do? Attack it with available forces, coming under attack from coastal batteries, or abandoning everything to meet Rozhdestvensky?
                  Let's say he chooses the second option and goes to meet Rozhestvensky with all nine ships of the battle line.
                  What is the Arthurian squadron doing?
                  That's right - he goes next. With all eight pennants (with Bayan) At a safe distance, of course, and even out of sight.
                  What should Togo do? Turn around and fight? The 1st squadron will receive it as it retreats to Port Arthur... taking Togo’s detachment with it. Arthur is not far away, the battle is not terrible, the forces are almost equal.
                  And at this time Rozhdestvensky is inexorably approaching with seven ships of his battle line. He is getting closer to Arthur.
                  If Togo rushes towards Rozhdestvensky, then the 1st squadron will come up next and hit him in the tails. And combining forces, both squadrons will unanimously attack the splintering and daring Togo.
                  But Togo still has no experience of fighting in the Yellow Sea!!
                  And just like the first time, he will shoot armor-piercing weapons, which are not particularly scary for our ships. They have not penetrated armor even once, and their high-explosive effect is lower.
                  Hammer, anvil and... walnut.
                3. -2
                  February 10 2024
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  How many combat-ready ships of the line would remain in the 1st TOE by the likely arrival of Rozhdestvensky?

                  I think he would have made it there before the battle of the 1st squadron in the Yellow Sea. That is, all the main ships would be in service: "Retvizan" and "Tsesarevich" have already been repaired, "Poltava" are all in good order, two "Peresvet" are in full combat mode (the bow 6" were sent to the front and waking up), and "Bayan" is still intact - unharmed, not blown up by a mine. Total 2+3+2+1=8 - eight ships of the battle line could be fielded by the 1st squadron. And this is quite a formidable force against the remaining four battleships and eight cruisers of the Toga battle line. After all, he has to keep at least three armored cruisers against the Vladivostok detachment of cruisers, and it’s impossible to have fewer. After all, the Vladivostok cruisers had not yet come under attack during an attempt to reach the rendezvous point during the battle in the Yellow Sea. There hasn't been a fight yet. In total, Togo has a maximum of 9 ships in the battle line. Maximum because repairs happen from time to time, because ships have difficult services.
                  So - 9 ships of Toga against 8 ships of the 1st squadron, and against 7 ships of the line (4 Borodino, "Oslyabya", "Sisoy the Great", "Navarin") of Rozhdestvensky.
                  Suppose Rozhdestvensky goes to Arthur, leaving supply ships guarded by light and auxiliary cruisers, say, in Cam Ranh. He has one light cruiser with him for reconnaissance. Goes for a breakthrough in Arthur.
                  Both detachments of our ships (both squadrons) are inferior in the number of pennants, but superior in main guns. And the ships of Togo are already quite exhausted from constant services, the crews are tired, the ships are already in need of maintenance, and others need repairs.. Rozhdestvensky’s ships are quite healthy, not overgrown with algae
                  And the Japanese still have no experience of fighting in the Yellow Sea. Therefore, they will shoot precisely with armor-piercing weapons, which are not particularly scary for our ships - they will not penetrate armor, the high-explosive effect is not enough for anything fatal.
                4. -2
                  February 10 2024
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  If I had scored Togo for the 1st TOE, she still has nowhere to go, and she won’t go far. And he would have met Rozhdestvensky’s forces in the Yellow Sea, somewhere on the same parallel.

                  Uh, the 1st squadron with the repaired Retvizan and Tsarevich, and with a live Bayan, is capable of a lot. wink
                  Let's imagine that Arthur is recognized as the time and place of the rendezvous. And in a couple of days they go with all their main forces to the outer raid.
                  Oops lol What should Toga do? (and he stands near Formosa)
                  Rush into battle?
                  Yes, easily - welcome to coastal batteries and mine banks. As they say, let's dance.
                  But then Toga finds out that Rozhestvensky is approaching. He may already be being herded by the curtain's auxiliary cruisers... And Toga is rushing to meet him.
                  What is the Arthurian squadron doing?
                  And she moves after him! With cover cruisers and even destroyers. lol And what should he do? Turn around and go into battle?
                  Wonderful Yes The Arthurians accept the battle, but are retreating to Arthur, luring Toga into mine banks and under coastal artillery.
                  Meanwhile, Rozhdestvensky GOES. Approaching.
                  Spit on the Arthurians and rush at full speed (to break away) to the 2nd squadron?
                  Once the ember burns, how can we fight at maximum speed? Yes, and the 1st squadron is still trailing behind, and if a battle happens with Rozhdestvensky, it will hit his tails, and by combining forces they will definitely knock him down.
                  I remind you that there was no battle in the Yellow Sea YET and the Japanese have not drawn any conclusions. So it turns out that a hammer (well... a hammer) is coming from the south, and an anvil is being pulled up from the north. And no matter how it turns out, Rozhdestvensky will reach Arthur. And then everything changes. The Japanese army under Arthur is deprived of supplies by sea (and there is no other supply - there is no railway from Korea. And it begins to run out of steam. Meanwhile, it is being ironed out by naval artillery. Also, Formosa is already uncomfortable - the united forces of the Pacific Fleet, distributed in detachments along speeds. Borodino + "Retvizan" with "Tsesarevich" + three "Peresvet" - a high-speed detachment, and with them "Bayan". "Poltava" + "Sisoy the Great" + "Navarin" - an auxiliary detachment operating together with the first, but in In the event of a battle at high speeds, it may fall behind... There are only 15 pennants, of which only one cruiser (and Peresvet, of course, which is somewhere in between), and 11 battleships.
                  And they start hunting for Togo.
                5. -3
                  February 10 2024
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  The 2nd TOE is a single combat squadron.

                  They have problems with shells, they don’t know it yet, but the battle will show it. And perhaps something will have to be done on the spot, but Arthur already has a powerful force. Which provides escort for supply ships, cruisers and destroyers of the 2nd squadron and Arthur. And work begins on communications and supply bases/ports of the Japanese land army. They are being squeezed out from Arthur (without supplies, they will not hold out for long and will be pulled back to the main forces. They definitely have no time for Arthur. And the main forces of the Pacific Fleet drive Togo away from Formosa and he has one task left - protecting the routes, ports and supply bases in Korea. And after a while, the strike forces of the Pacific Fleet come to Korea. And the most interesting thing begins - maneuver warfare at sea. The Japanese have a “high-speed wing” - 6 high-speed cruisers of the battle line. And they can always break the distance and evade battle.
                  They can . But the battleships of Togo and two Garibaldians - NO. So this is just maneuvering and breaking away in the dark. But Toga will not withstand a battle with our line of 15 ships, 11 of which are battleships. And our fleet begins to operate near Korea, destroying Japanese ports and bases, intercepting supply convoys, taking trophies and prizes... and always keeping the main forces in a fist.
                  Japan's ground army begins to SUFFER. And the Russian Army in Manchuria and in the Far East as a whole is growing through reinforcements along the Trans-Siberian Railway. And when there is enough strength, the Yaps will be finished. Our highest point will coincide with their lowest.
                  But Nebogatov’s 3rd squadron is also approaching. Which looked ridiculous in Tsushima. But for a naval blockade, support of ground forces, landings, protection of naval bases and other auxiliary purposes, it is a very useful resource. And with the 3rd squadron, not only supply ships will be suitable, but also ... about a division of fresh forces - it’s not all about straining the Trans-Siberian. And if by that time the enemy is still on Liaodong, then this division, having strengthened the garrison, will land in Dalny, strengthen it from land and drive the enemy from the “native Liaodong region”.
                  1. 0
                    February 14 2024
                    Quote: bayard
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The 2nd TOE is a single combat squadron.

                    They have problems with shells, they don’t know it yet, but the battle will show it. And perhaps something will have to be done on the spot, but Arthur already has a powerful force. Which provides escort for supply ships, cruisers and destroyers of the 2nd squadron and Arthur. And work begins on communications and supply bases/ports of the Japanese land army. They are being squeezed out from Arthur (without supplies, they will not hold out for long and will be pulled back to the main forces. They definitely have no time for Arthur. And the main forces of the Pacific Fleet drive Togo away from Formosa and he has one task left - protecting the routes, ports and supply bases in Korea. And after a while, the strike forces of the Pacific Fleet come to Korea. And the most interesting thing begins - maneuver warfare at sea. The Japanese have a “high-speed wing” - 6 high-speed cruisers of the battle line. And they can always break the distance and evade battle.
                    They can . But the battleships of Togo and two Garibaldians - NO. So this is just maneuvering and breaking away in the dark. But Toga will not withstand a battle with our line of 15 ships, 11 of which are battleships. And our fleet begins to operate near Korea, destroying Japanese ports and bases, intercepting supply convoys, taking trophies and prizes... and always keeping the main forces in a fist.
                    Japan's ground army begins to SUFFER. And the Russian Army in Manchuria and in the Far East as a whole is growing through reinforcements along the Trans-Siberian Railway. And when there is enough strength, the Yaps will be finished. Our highest point will coincide with their lowest.
                    But Nebogatov’s 3rd squadron is also approaching. Which looked ridiculous in Tsushima. But for a naval blockade, support of ground forces, landings, protection of naval bases and other auxiliary purposes, it is a very useful resource. And with the 3rd squadron, not only supply ships will be suitable, but also ... about a division of fresh forces - it’s not all about straining the Trans-Siberian. And if by that time the enemy is still on Liaodong, then this division, having strengthened the garrison, will land in Dalny, strengthen it from land and drive the enemy from the “native Liaodong region”.

                    Fantastic, that's how she is
                    1. 0
                      February 14 2024
                      There were repetitions there, I thought the comment was lost. Now I looked - yes, I made a lot of text.
                      Quote from Kartograph
                      Fantastic, that's how she is

                      It's like a headquarters game of cards. when different options are considered and the optimal ones are sought.
                      But in the realities of that RI, what was described above was hardly possible.
                6. 0
                  February 10 2024
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  If we use it like this, where will we repair it?

                  In Arthur, Dalniy (after liberation) and in Vladivostok.
                  By the way, about it - Vladivostok. After the start of the database off the Korean coast, the dispersal of the Yap fleet and the severance of their communications, communication with Vladivostok is restored.
                  What do we have in Vladivostok?
                  And there we have a detachment of cruisers. By that time, the “Bogatyr” may have already broken on the rocks (or maybe not, I don’t remember when), but there are definitely three large cruisers there and they have not yet come under distribution. For a battle line, the strength is so-so (although they can be useful in the general line), but as raiders, for a blockade, and as part of the main forces, +3 pennants... in total there are already 18 pennants of the main forces. And this is already serious.
                  So what are we doing?
                  And we collect all the Dobroflot ships, all the prize ships and even some of the auxiliary cruisers (these are essentially hefty steamships, and fast ones at that) and organize a LANDING TROOP from Vladivostok to... Chemulpo! And to a number of other ports through which the Japanese organized supplies for the land army. We occupy these ports, take all the trophies and prizes and organize defense against Japanese ground forces if they try to retreat. With the support of the Navy, of course.
                  That's it - the path to retreat into the Japanese land has been cut off. Korean ports (and even Chemulpo) are becoming operational bases of the Pacific Fleet, garrisons in Korean ports are being built up, and the resource of supply bases for Japanese troops is being actively used. The build-up of forces continues along the sea and Trans-Siberian Railway. As we remember, in 1905, the Republic of Ingushetia had already accumulated a million-strong group in the Far East, but our transfer is already underway by sea.
                  And no one in the world criticizes Russia anymore... everyone is looking at the rising Russian Bear. And they begin to be in awe.
                  In Manchuria and Korea, the Japanese army was destroyed and captured.
                  Complete naval blockade.
                  The strength of the Japanese fleet is melting. Both in combat collisions, and due to wear and tear and accidents during racing at maximum speed (and they have to).
                  The British and Americans begin to look for a reason for negotiations to save Japan from complete defeat and defeat.
                  And we are preparing a landing on Hokkaido. , the Russian Flag rises over the Kuril Islands.
                  Negotiations begin in... Jindao is a German colony in China.
                  Possible in Berlin.
                  Databases do not stop until all our demands are met.
                  Demilitarization. Denazification. Well, the Kuril Islands and Hokkaido are definitely ours, this is sacred - after all, I was friends with the descendants of Yesaul Shabalin in childhood. They lived in the village with my grandfather through a fence.
                  How is it with Rasteryaev (?) - “Why are you squinting your eyes in the wrong way, brother \ Give me back the island quickly.”
                  And freedom for the Ainu - they are our subjects, we will restore their citizenship. bully
              2. 0
                February 10 2024
                Very optimistic.
                And now they won’t let me win. Balance of power and intentions in the world. Someone is holding his mustache. And for the hell.. The whole world is in ruins - it’s just a joke of our military.
                And politics is the art of the possible.

                In short, potentials...
                Not against the Japanese, but against other interests in the Far East and China
                1. 0
                  February 10 2024
                  Quote: antivirus
                  Not against the Japanese, but against other interested people

                  Yes
                  Quote: antivirus
                  And now they won’t let me win.

                  The whole world is in ruins, but you hold on.
                  And good mood to you.
          2. 0
            February 9 2024
            Quote: bayard
            The "Prince Potemkin" project (only with vehicles of 15 - 000 hp, like the "Borodino") was much simpler in execution, had the best armor at that time, and were better armed (16 six-inch guns versus 000 " Borodino" with a lower rate of fire) and therefore such battleships would be built much faster.

            That is, a new project will need to be somehow crammed into the body of the “Chernomorets” CMU from the “Baltic”. This is a year and a half to two years.
            Quote: bayard
            and therefore such battleships would be built much faster

            Hmmm... "Potemkin" took 6 years to build before the delays caused by the start of the nuclear war. And it was still unfinished. "Borodintsy" surrendered to the fleet in 3-4 years (the fastest was traditionally built by "Baltzavod").
            1. 0
              February 9 2024
              Quote: Alexey RA
              That is, a new project will need to be somehow crammed into the body of the “Chernomorets” CMU from the “Baltic”.

              No . It was necessary to build "Retvizans" in the Baltic with auxiliary artillery casemates from the "Potemkin". Look at “Potemkin” and “Retvizan” - this is the same project, it’s just that Crump took with him the “Potemkin” project in a slightly unfinished form (just according to the architecture of the casemates of 6" guns.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              "Potemkin" took 6 years to build before the delays caused by the start of the nuclear war. And it was still unfinished.

              Potemkin was built on a new shipyard that did not yet have any experience or experienced personnel. In the Baltic, this project ("Retvizan" with the "Potemkin" casemates) would have been built faster than the architecturally and technically complex "Borodino". Look at the elaborately curved forms of the "Tsarevich" and "Borodino", at its 6 (!!) 6" caliber towers with all their mechanization and bent armor plates, and then at the strict and laconic forms of the "Retvizan". At the same time, the casemate artillery had seriously better rate of fire, and the Potemkin reservation system was the best in the world at that time.
              Crump appreciated this. And the ship was built quickly and efficiently. And it turned out to be very beautiful, harmonious and without any French frills a la airship.
              You look at the casemate part of "Potemkin" ... you'll fall in love.
              This is how it should have been built. On the Baltic with French cars. And at the World Cup with the same cars, and not with the old English ones, on which Poltava was built.
              1. 0
                February 9 2024
                Quote: bayard
                Potemkin was built on a new shipyard that did not yet have any experience or experienced personnel.

                Hmm... "Potemkin" was built by the Nikolaev Admiralty - in the same Boathouse No. 7 in which "Three Saints" and "Rostislav" were built before.
                Quote: bayard
                In the Baltic, this project ("Retvizan" with the "Potemkin" casemates) would have been built faster than the architecturally and technically complex "Borodino".

                At the Baltic Plant it is possible. And the Admiralty would traditionally delay its construction.
                And this is if the Ministry of Transport and Communications had not intervened in the matter. Here, by the way, is an excellent example of the efficiency of this department:
                For example, in August 1895, two years after the launch, the builder could not install ventilation on the ship due to the lack of drawings for it. And only in November 1894, when the “Three Saints” had already been transferred for further completion from Nikolaev to Sevastopol, the Marine Technical Committee decided on the type of conning tower in order to finally begin making armor for it.
                1. -1
                  February 9 2024
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  . "Potemkin" was built by the Nikolaev Admiralty - in the same Boathouse No. 7 in which "Three Saints" and "Rostislav" were previously built.

                  Perhaps I confused it with the new dock in which the Potemkin was being completed, but it is clear that a ship of such complexity was built there for the first time. And his project was finalized during construction.
                  The fact is that it was the “Potemkin” that was supposed to become a single type for the Baltic and Black Sea Fleet, initially this type was called the “improved Peresvet”, but it was supposed to be a battleship with a high degree of protection, maximally armed and... have a speed of 18 nodes But there were no such cars in the Republic of Ingushetia. Only old English cars with a capacity of 10 - 000 hp in a two-shaft version were available. These are exactly the ones they put on the Black Sea series "Potemkins\Panteleimons". But these were absolutely not suitable for the Pacific Fleet. That is why Kramp was invited, who undertook not only to build two battleships with a speed of up to 11 knots and two armored cruisers with a speed of 000 knots (vehicles with a capacity of 19 hp), but also to transfer all the technical documentation and technical process, to help modernize Russian shipyards and build in Port Arthur is a modern shipyard together with a friend who built such shipyards). And yes - also build 21 destroyers.
                  He spent a lot of time (more than a year) in St. Petersburg, coordinating and determining the appearance of the future battleship. He wanted to build a cruiser using the Asama as a basis, he specially went to England to launch the Asama into the water, was very inspired by its architecture and cars and promised to do better (that’s why he planned cars with 20 hp versus 000 hp there) \s from "Asama") .
                  And then the French arrived and, through the “Russian Rothschild,” quickly found an approach to the most illustrious persons ... with bribes, convincing them to give Crump’s contract to them. Crump was indignant, there was a considerable scandal, and it was decided to split the contract. But since the French ships were much more expensive, Crump was forced to lower the price, and they still ordered, in addition to the battleship (for 8 million rubles!), only an armored cruiser.
                  It’s scary to think what would have happened if the entire order had gone to the French, because they simply did not have free construction sites and they almost ruined an order that was half the size. And how many scandals there were during construction...
                2. -2
                  February 9 2024
                  The optimal solution was the choice of Kramp's project - a battleship with a 19-knot speed. Moreover, build only battleships (4 pcs.). Then at least two of them would definitely have ended up at the Pacific Fleet before the start of the nuclear war, and the other two would have been guaranteed to be part of Rozhdestvensky’s 2nd squadron.
                  Moreover, it was necessary for the French to impose, if not our entire type of battleship, then our weapon system and casemate placement of 6" artillery. That is, the same "Potemkin" on the hull of the "Tsarevich". And perhaps just two battleships. In any case If anything, we lost orders of magnitude more in terms of money since the start of the war, and we ourselves built according to Kramp’s design, with his help in the reconstruction and development of technical processes.
                  And by the beginning of the war, the Pacific Fleet would have received at least 6 new battleships with a speed of 18-19 knots (the French would not have given more than 18 knots anyway), three Poltava and three Peresvet (“Oslyabya would definitely have managed to get there if not the machinations of Witte, who demanded that "registered destroyers" be dragged behind the Oslyabya, which were not at all adapted to such a voyage across the ocean. It was nonsense in appearance, but if you read his telegrams to the ships in Suez, your hair will stand on end with indignation - what he was doing.
                  And if the “Garibaldians” had also been bought from the Italians (Nisan and Kasuga), then the 2nd squadron would have been more than formidable.
                  What if they had kept their word and ordered not ONE Novik, but FOUR, as originally agreed? And they would not have stolen the technical documentation, but would have received it along with the technical process and assistance in mastering production? After all, it was planned to build 10 such light cruisers at the Pacific Fleet. !
                  And the armored "Bogatyrs" and "Askolds" could be obtained not one, but two cruisers - before the REV! And build the rest yourself.
                  There were possibilities for such orders and the ships would have arrived on time. And history would have gone completely differently.
                  But for this, it was not “a young man with an absent-minded look” who had to sit on the throne, but a HUSBAND with Will and Reason corresponding to the place and rank.
                3. -1
                  February 9 2024
                  PS
                  "Retvizan" did not reach 19 knots in tests only because of the irrationality of the screws; there was simply not enough time to manufacture and install new ones. Time was spent on one and a half years of gatherings at the Admiralty, approvals and waiting for the completion of the Potemkin project. The Japanese, having received the Retvizan as a trophy, repaired it, changed the propellers and it easily delivered its 19 knots. After all, on the shafts it had a power of 17 hp.
              2. +3
                February 10 2024
                Quote: bayard
                Look at "Potemkin" and "Retvizan" - this is the same project

                Yes. Only one with a forecastle, and the other a smooth deck, and so one to one))
                1. -1
                  February 10 2024
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  Yes. Only one with a forecastle, and the other a smooth deck, and so one to one))

                  Well, the basis is the same. In addition, Crump was given carte blanche to improvise, because they themselves did not have a ready-made project. So he took the unfinished work and made it. It turned out quite nice. It’s a pity that due to the rush, they didn’t let me change the screws.
                2. 0
                  February 10 2024
                  By the way, look at the series of American Maine-class battleships (in my opinion), built after the Retvizan - one to one Potemkin.
                  1. 0
                    February 10 2024
                    Quote: Rakovor
                    "Man" (in my opinion), built after "Retvizan" - one in one "Potemkin".

                    Well, not one at a time and not after.
                    "Men" began to be built in February, and "Retvizan" in July 1899
          3. +4
            February 9 2024
            Quote: bayard
            At the same time, Witte found a lot of money for the development of the Dalny TRADE port. Where a dock was built, and a whole city from scratch and with all the infrastructure.

            Right. Because without Dalny there is no point in either Port Arthur or the South Moscow Railway - which turns into a road to nowhere.
            For all the dancing around Kwantung made sense only under one condition - the commercial use of the lands taken from Japan. Port Arthur was only a cover for the largest commercial port in the Empire, Dalny (the estimated cargo turnover of which was supposed to exceed the St. Petersburg port).
            Quote: bayard
            But Dalny was not strengthened with coastal batteries and a sufficient garrison was not installed.

            Dalny's defense was Port Arthur, located nearby, with its fleet. Without it, no matter how many batteries and forts you build, the fate of Dalny will repeat that of Port Arthur.

            And the sailors, who have cried over the lack of money, would be better off scraping by their bootstraps. How much did the reconstruction of Libau cost there? wink
            1. +3
              February 9 2024
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Right. Because without Dalny there is no point in either Port Arthur or the South Moscow Railway - which turns into a road to nowhere.
              For all the dancing around Kwantung made sense only under one condition - the commercial use of the lands taken from Japan. Port Arthur was only a cover for the largest commercial port in the Empire, Dalny (the estimated cargo turnover of which was supposed to exceed the St. Petersburg port).

              It seems logical from a commercial point of view.
              But not military!
              Japan was clearly preparing for war. Therefore, either it was necessary to prepare a full-fledged base from Arthur with a dock and a deepened fairway, or, which is perhaps preferable, to temporarily make Dalny the main base of the fleet. And not to organize a circus waiting for the tide to withdraw the squadron. But the worst possible options were chosen, the voice of Reason was not listened to and everything was arranged for the sake of Russia’s defeat in the war.
              I repeat - Japan’s readiness for war in 1903 was known for a long time and firmly. But they deliberately “did not attach importance.”
              Quote: Alexey RA
              And the sailors, who have cried over the lack of money, would be better off scraping by their bootstraps. How much did the reconstruction of Libau cost there?

              I don’t know how much it cost, but since it was used to make the main and most convenient base of the Baltic Fleet, it was most likely worth it. In any case, these expenses had nothing to do with the Far Eastern budget.
              By the way, it was Witte who banned and stopped Sharapov’s program (who should be Minister of Finance) to heat up the economy by emission. Thanks to which the Trans-Siberian Railway was built in just 8 years, without attracting not only external, but also internal loans. And with the involvement of Chinese migrant workers. This program was agreed upon and approved by Alexander-3. Thanks to it, it would be possible to build ships quickly, on time and without burdening the budget, and there would be plenty of money for ships abroad, and there would be enough for the development of Port Arthur without any problems. And for the entire Far Eastern Program.
              But the weak-minded son (who didn’t understand them), under Witte’s admonition, abolished this program and succumbed to the adventure of minting gold (!!) money. Loved...loving the preparation for war, blew it with a CRACK, picked up external debts worth 11 billion (!!!) gold rubles with the help of Witte... received THREE Revolutions and in the finale - a cozy execution room for the whole family in the basement of the Ipatiev house .
              Russia was not lucky with its sovereign at that time.
              1. +3
                February 9 2024
                Quote: bayard
                Japan was clearly preparing for war. Therefore, either it was necessary to prepare a full-fledged base from Arthur with a dock and a deepened fairway, or, which is perhaps preferable, to temporarily make Dalny the main base of the fleet.

                To do this, it was necessary to take away the Libau toy from the Balticians. And since our capital is on the Baltic, the Far Easterners have no chance.
                Russia won't be able to handle two bases.
                Quote: bayard
                I don’t know how much it cost, but since it was used to make the main and most convenient base of the Baltic Fleet, it was most likely worth it.

                The total cost of all structures of the port of Emperor Alexander III was determined at 32 million rubles, which was announced by the manager of the maritime ministry on April 412, 24 at a meeting of the Department of State Economy. This amount was to be spread over ten years. The department decided: to allocate 1895 million rubles at a time and allow the Maritime Ministry to request the remaining funds according to the estimates of each year.

                The main fleet base on the border of the Empire near Memel. Its entire existence depended on the army.
                And the whole mess with the port of Emperor Alexander III ended precisely by the decision of the land forces: when, after moving the main line of defense of the Empire inland, the Libau fortress was abolished by the Decision of the State Defense Council of June 27, 1907. The fleet base was left bare.
                Quote: bayard
                Russia was not lucky with its sovereign at that time.

                Yes, yes... and with the sovereign, and with the Last Name too.
                1. +1
                  February 9 2024
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  The main fleet base on the border of the Empire near Memel. Its entire existence depended on the army.

                  The fact is that under Alexander 3 the possibility of war with Germany was not even allowed in principle.
                  And as my son loved everything about...ka...and lost the Great Game to England by capitulation, so he ended up as a dual leader in the Entente - under England against... Germany and Austria... With whom he was previously in the Holy Alliance. Despite the fact that it was Germany who fully helped us during the nuclear war, providing the 2nd squadron with coal and all supplies along the entire route. Despite the fact that such an alliance (the Entente) meant an inevitable war with Germany, for which neither we nor the Germans had any reason.
                  This was such a wonderful guy - Nicky No. 2.
                  And I already wrote about money - there was a wonderful program for development and financial (emission) warming up. It was ideal for the Far Eastern program (ALL!).
                  But it’s better to read about this from the author: “After the victory of the Slavophiles” by A. Sharapov, edited (republished) by O. A. Platonov. I was at the presentation of this reissue, and then we voted for the creation of the All-Russian Economic Society named after Sharapov. There (in the book) the author himself tells how he managed to convince Alexander-3 to go for a test test of this program on the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway. It should be on the Internet, find it, it will be very interesting.
                  During the tenure of Alexander-3, Sharapov was a comrade (deputy) of the Minister of Agriculture. Author of several dozen inventions... A cross-section of the era at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries.
                  The American paper dollar and the Federal Reserve System also appeared thanks to his “Theory of Absolute Money,” but perverted by American bankers. Half a year before the establishment of the Federal Reserve System, Sharapov died as a result of an assassination attempt on his estate.
                  1. +2
                    February 10 2024
                    against... Germany and Austria... With whom he formerly was in the Holy Alliance

                    and who in this “union” helped us so much, helped us so much...
                    especially during the Crimean War, Austria, yeah

                    And then in the Balkans too... “they helped”
                    and England lost the Great Game by surrender

                    is this when in Persia the Shah appointed Cossack Colonel V.P. Lyakhov as the military governor of Tehran with dictatorial powers?
                    This kind of “surrender” is normal - your colonel becomes a dictator in the capital of the disputed territory.
                    an inevitable war with Germany, for which neither we nor the Germans had any reason

                    The Germans, who were late to the main division of the world into colonies, were extremely offended by this. Since the mid-19th century, their thinkers have constantly talked about “living space.” As an example
                    Heinrich Schmithenner, in his book “Lebensraum in the Struggle of Cultures,” stated that “the desire to expand is inherent in every healthy people” and “only that space can expand and develop new areas that, in comparison with other has a higher population density, as well as a higher culture».
                    The population density in the Republic of Ingushetia was less than in the Reich, and O. Spengler said “good” about the attitude of the Germans towards the Russians, and long before Hitler. Prussianism and socialism. With. 147-148 M.: Praxis. 2002. “Here there is a difference not between two peoples, but between two worlds. Russians are not a people at all, like Germans or English...
                    The difference between the Russian and Western spirit must be emphasized in the most decisive manner. ... The real Russian is internally just as alien to us, like the Roman of the era of the kings and the Chinese of the times long before Confucius, if they suddenly appeared among us"
                    An excellent “ally” who doesn’t even consider you a people!
                    1. -2
                      February 10 2024
                      Quote: N.M.
                      especially during the Crimean War, Austria, yeah

                      And then in the Balkans too... “they helped”

                      In fact, the “Russian tsars” did not have a single drop of Russian blood - they were the same Germans, with an admixture of Danish and English blood. In a word - Goths. And their DNA is Gothic.
                      But they sucked the milk of Russian nurses.
                      Quote: N.M.
                      is this when in Persia the Shah appointed Cossack Colonel V.P. Lyakhov as the military governor of Tehran with dictatorial powers?
                      This kind of “surrender” is normal - your colonel becomes a dictator in the capital of the disputed territory.

                      There were big plans - they wanted to dig a canal to the Indian Ocean, they were opening banks... I know Persia a little - I served on the border.
                      Quote: N.M.
                      The Germans, who were late to the main division of the world into colonies, were extremely offended by this.

                      Yes, but it was in Russia that Germany saw an ally in the acquisition of overseas territories and trading posts. In China, it was we who helped them. And if RI had not disgraced itself in the RYAV then, they would have continued to lick us. But Nikola, having blown the war with SUCH a bang, lost face. Although the army was then commanded almost exclusively by “Russian” Germans. They blew it on land. And everywhere.
                      And what Germany needed then was a STRONG Russia. And having blown Nicky away, he didn’t just crawl away with shame and lick his wounds, he completely fell for England, and specifically against Germany. Committing to fight Germany in a future war.
                      In 1905, Sharapov described a future European war, in which he categorically did not advise Russia to participate. But he recommended taking advantage of the results of this war, solving all his geostrategic problems in one fell swoop.
                      But Nikola did the opposite.
                      And I screwed everything up...

                      Quote: N.M.
                      An excellent “ally” who doesn’t even consider you a people!

                      Yes, in the royal family and, in principle, the entire aristocracy of the Republic of Ingushetia despised “their” people no less. She simply treated Him as property - as an asset. Do you remember how Nikola named his occupation on the All-Russian Population Census form?
                      "Master of the Russian Land".
                      Well, the Earth showed him what kind of “master” he is.
                      And where is his place?
                      But his father, the king, was a current one.
                      And the example of his relationship with Sharapov especially shows this.
                      What would we do without the Putilov factories, railways and, in general, without the connectivity of territories?
                      Would they get loans from the French Rothschilds and ruin the country on such grandiose projects? Or would you remain in bast shoes and with a cart track?
                      Everything good that was done under Niki was started/laid by his father.
                      And he... whistled.
                      1. +2
                        February 10 2024
                        In one word - goths

                        does this somehow negate the fact that your dear Holy Alliance with Austria only spoiled us in the Balkans and in the Crimean War?
                        Russia is a multinational country and is full of examples of people who glorified it who were not Russian by blood.
                        So now you have taken a wrong turn somewhere.
                        I know Persia a little - I served on the border.

                        Well, since it’s on the border.. If particular examples are so close to your heart, then if you please, I’ve visited all its major cities. Golden Triangle, and not only modern ones.
                        Does the name Persipolis mean something to you, for example?
                        But, I repeat once again, our private examples do not cancel out historical facts and figures
                        It was in Russia that Germany saw an ally

                        Yah? "father of geopolitics" German geographer Friedrich Ratzel (1844-1904 - note the year of death, long before Hitler) believed that the state is a continuously developing biological organism and that one of the main ways to increase its power is territorial expansion or expansion of “living space” (Lebensraum) by including “politically valuable places” "

                        so it would not have been possible for RI to “sit out”. The “offended” Germans, who were late for the division of the colonies, would have rushed east beyond Lebensraum anyway, the same path was indicated by Heinrich Schmithenner, see the earlier quote.
                        In 1905, Sharapov described a future European war, in which he categorically did not advise Russia to participate

                        a dreamer, not very smart. as if the aggressor will ask whether you want to participate or not. Just to remind you that
                        August 1 (July 19, old style) 1914 Germany declared war on Russia, and not the other way around.
                        And I screwed everything up...
                        In general, this was not done by the RIA and the Tsar, but by the REEvolutionaries who replaced them, who handed over a third of the country’s population to the Germans under the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.
                        the entire aristocracy of the Republic of Ingushetia, despised “their” people no less

                        typical communist lie, I already gave an example in another topic, but I’ll repeat it
                        Kuropatkin, Alexey Nikolaevich, infantry general (December 6, 1900), Minister of War, member of the State Council. His grandfather is non-commissioned officer Emelyan Kuropatkin, a native of the serfs of the Yekaterinoslav province. First wife Clara Emilia Cecilia Ernestovna von Prussing - hereditary noblewoman. This clearly indicates the withering away of class stratification in the Republic of Ingushetia.
                        Denikin - Commander-in-Chief in 1917 and Commander-in-Chief of the All-Russian Socialist Republic - son and grandson of a serf. Denikin's father came out of serfdom. Anton Ivanovich’s mother was a small-scale but hereditary noblewoman and there were no problems with marriage given the obvious difference in class.
                        Family nobles did not hesitate to marry grandchildren and children of serfs
                        what was done under Nicky was started/laid by his father.

                        Nicholas II reigned from November 1, 1894.
                        In 1897 appears first ambulance station.
                        on September 1 1916 Nicholas II created the Main Directorate of Health Care as a ministry, headed by the minister-doctor - honorary life surgeon, academician Georgy Ermolaevich Rein. According to the wiki, at that time there were only two countries with health ministries: Cuba and New Zealand. according to the memoirs of G.E. Reina, Nicholas II had the following words, spoken in response to arguments about the absence of such ministries in the world: “Russia - a sixth of the world - can have Ministry of Public Health».
                        Are these bad things? Or maybe the spirit of his father led Nikolai’s hand?

                        ps, in your dislike for the last king, you do not know the limits and become unobjective, excuse the harshness.
                      2. 0
                        February 11 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        does this somehow negate the fact that your dear Holy Alliance with Austria only spoiled us in the Balkans and in the Crimean War?

                        They are not at all kind to me, and this union did not even exist then, and everything is correct about the Germans who were late to the division of the world. But in the eyes of the Germans, Russia became weak precisely after the nuclear attack, and yes, after that it could already be considered as a potential victim if it gave in again. And when she joined the Entente, she became simply an enemy. And war became inevitable. And unfortunately, it was impossible to expect something wiser after making all the previous mistakes, blunders, failures and demonstrated incapacity. Nicky simply fell into another trap of the Anglo-Saxons. But now it was necessary to fight not with Japan, but with Germany, Austria and Turkey. Again failing to prepare for war and being late in re-equipping the now Ground Army.
                        Every person has a limit of abilities and competence. Nicholas might have been a good king in peacetime, but TWO wars fell on his reign and he was unprepared for both. In fact, his accession began the conflict with Japan and the pre-war period (preparation for war), defeat in the war and a sharp decline in the status of Russia... After that, it was no longer considered a great power in Europe. Unless they hooted. And in this state they were dragged into an alliance with their worst enemy - England. War with Germany became inevitable. And again they could not prepare for it. And if you consider how many Germans were among the aristocracy and nobles, in the army and other government structures, how many German enterprises and businesses were in Russia and now they all became potential spies and saboteurs...
                        Suffice it to remember that the main resident of German intelligence in the Republic of Ingushetia was... the Minister of the Tsar's Court, the queen's uncle, Count Fredericks. He certified all the royal decrees with his signature and seal and all documentary circulation went through him.
                        And was all this (the Entente) really necessary?
                        Even blowing Japan?
                        Or would it be better to go into neutrality, engage in reforms, rearm the Army, build a Navy, develop the economy and infrastructure?
                        Germany was looking for colonies and markets, and wanted to profit from the French. So let them fight with the French on land and the Angles at sea. And Russia’s main task was not to get in the way.
                        Look at the carnage in Europe and accumulate strength, economy, build a Fleet. It was not worth helping the Angles fight the “Saxon Saxons”, they would have torn each other to shreds.
                        And in this situation, they definitely wouldn’t have jumped the boat on us. On the contrary, they would be looking for location.
                        And the Angles and Franks would lick us.
                        And trade would go oh-ho-ho
                        And by the end of this epic battle, all participants in the dump would have presented a wretched spectacle, and the Russian Army, and maybe even the Navy... would have become the main force on the continent.
                        This is what America (USA) did.
                        But this is exactly what we should have done.
                        It’s a pity there was no one to do it then.
                      3. 0
                        February 11 2024
                        And when she joined the Entente, she became simply an enemy

                        All the major powers were the enemy of the late Germans - see the statements I cited, justifying their right to “living space”.
                        Therefore, joining the strongest side (entente) was correct.
                        the main resident of German intelligence in the Republic of Ingushetia was... Minister of the Tsar's Court, uncle of the Tsarina Count Fredericks

                        Don't repeat Soviet nonsense. After the overthrow of the monarchy, the Count was interrogated by the Extraordinary Commission of Inquiry; no charges were brought against him. the protocols are on the internet
                        “Everyone who bore German surnames during the Great War was suspected of espionage. Thus, Count Fredericks and Stürmer, who did not speak German, were presented as the first spies; but the unfortunate Baltic barons suffered the most; many of them were sent to Siberia for no reason, by order of Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolayevich, while their sons and brothers fought in the Russian Army. In difficult times, the Tsar could rather rely on them than on the Russian nobility, which almost all turned out to be not up to the height of their position. Maybe spies were rather those who shouted most about treason and smeared the name of the Russian Empress?..”
                        A.A. Taneyeva (Vyrubova) "Pages of my life"
                        it would be better to go neutral
                        and give Germany the much-needed war on ONE front. Just like the narrow-minded communists in 1939.
                        Just the other day on this site, in a discussion with another opponent, we considered this scenario - an extremely disappointing outcome for the Republic of Ingushetia. you can find in the article "Red project of something there." If you don’t believe me, read Denikin, one of the best military leaders of that time. he also considered this scenario and simply defeated its adherents with numbers.
                      4. -1
                        February 11 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        All the major powers were the enemy of the late Germans

                        And do you seriously think that Germany then (the period 1905-1914) was ready to attack all these states at the same time?
                        She saw France as the weak link among these powers. And they were interested not only and not so much in the lands of France itself, but in its colonies. Defeat the Franks and take their colonies - that was the goal of the Germans. This is why they began to build the fleet so actively. And then they never even dreamed of a war with England. They attacked France in the hope that England would not interfere. And England's entry into the war came as a shock to them.
                        Previously, the alliance between France and the Republic of Ingushetia kept them from such ambitions. And before the REV, Geomania looked at Russia as a strong neighbor and partner in the acquisition of overseas territories. It was in alliance with the Republic of Ingushetia that Germany acquired a colony and trading post in China (Jindao), and saw its future precisely in alliance with it. For Russia was strong. After the defeat in the RYAV, no one in Europe saw such force. Moreover, while noting the stamina, courage and combat capabilities of the Russian soldier, they no longer gave a penny to the ruling layer of the Republic of Ingushetia, its generals and senior command staff. They wrote a lot about this then - “a dying colossus with rotten brains.” Even the French. The general attitude was one (alas, but it is true) - contempt. And the phrase “From now on, Russia is hopelessly pregnant with revolution” has become a common European opinion (this is from European periodicals and literature of that period).
                        This is the price of frivolity, sloppiness, laziness and incompetence.
                        There was only one way out in that situation - Armed Neutrality. And the accelerated rearmament of the Ground Army, the development of the defense industry and, in general, Industrialization. It is the emphasis on the comprehensive strengthening of the Ground Army, artillery of all calibers, the production of shells (the experience of the shell famine of the Manchurian Army in the RN should be taken into account), the creation of reserves of weapons, ammo, equipment and other supplies for a major war and the development of mobilization measures.
                      5. 0
                        February 11 2024
                        Do you seriously think that Germany then (the period 1905-1914) was ready to attack all these states at the same time?

                        Apparently you were too lazy to find the comments in the article I indicated. OK. I will briefly repeat the main points.

                        1. it doesn’t matter what I think, the historical fact is important - Germany “rushed” towards the Republic of Ingushetia. which, fortunately, turned out to be not 1 on 1 with her, but with allies..
                        secondly. Further history (2-1939) showed that Germany rushed further towards “all these states at the same time” and again.
                        chtd.

                        That. There is no need to guess - facts are stubborn things; they cannot be refuted by unsubstantiated statements and empty good wishes.
                        So the solution - a real one, and not a manilovism - was to gain allies, which was done. Moreover, the allies were chosen correctly - it was this bloc that won. Which is also a historical fact, unlike the pseudo allies in the Holy Alliance, who could only spoil things.
                      6. 0
                        February 11 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Germany “rushed” towards the Republic of Ingushetia. which, fortunately, turned out to be not 1 on 1 with her, but with her allies..

                        Firstly, Germany did not rush to the Republic of Ingushetia, it was the Republic of Ingushetia that rushed to Germany (in East Prussia) and Austria-Hungary (in Galicia). Saving Paris, of course. Without having time to mobilize the Army, it became a peacetime army... And it lost most of its personnel army in this adventure and became mired in a difficult, grueling war of attrition.
                        Secondly, it was these “allies” who organized the February Revolution in order to exclude the Republic of Ingushetia from the ranks of the winners and not give it the Black Sea straits.
                        You won't dispute that it was the British who organized the murder of Rasputin, will you? And that it was they who led the conspiracy to overthrow Nika-2? And French intelligence, together with the Grand Orient of France, also supervised the conspirators.
                        You won't argue with this, will you?
                        But the October Revolution was financed by the German General Staff. But he financed, and did not exercise direct leadership like the British and French (these were the backup dancers) of the Provisional Government. So the allies were definitely “chosen correctly” - they dragged RI into a war that it did not need, and on the eve of victory they staged a revolution, intervention, plunder of its outskirts, execution of the deposed monarch (the English king REFUSED to accept his cousin in England) and the Civil War . RI shattered into pieces so that even after winning WWII, the USSR could not return to its previous borders. Poland, Finland, Kara and Erzurum regions were completely lost.
                        And all this is the result of the rule of a weak, weak-willed, narrow-minded and irresponsible person. For whom the hat turned out to be definitely not for Senka.
                        Answer - what was the Russian Expeditionary Force doing in France on the outskirts of Paris?? For what debts to the French Rothschilds did our soldiers shed their blood there? And as a result of WHAT did RI have these debts?
                      7. -1
                        February 11 2024
                        Firstly, Germany did not rush to the Republic of Ingushetia, it was the Republic of Ingushetia that rushed to Germany (in East Prussia) and Austria-Hungary (in Galicia)

                        Remind me, who declared war on whom?
                        After such statements as above - everything else is pointless to read, groundless fantasies not consistent with real history

                        I’m looking forward to the answer - after that we can continue in REAL history, and not in Soviet nonsense
                      8. 0
                        February 11 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Remind me, who declared war on whom?

                        Who started the Mobilization?
                        Don’t you know that Mobilization is a de facto declaration of war.
                        And if you look at those events in their sequence, then after the assassination of Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip, Austria declared an ultimatum to Serbia. Although Princip was not a Serb, he was indeed a citizen of this country. Russia stood up for Serbia, saying that it would not allow intervention and let investigators deal with this matter. France did the same (although it would seem where that France is). Germany took the side of Austria, declaring that it would support Austria with military force. And a touching and energetic correspondence between Nika and Willy began.
                        Meanwhile, the ultimatum expired and the Austrian army attacked Serbia... And the cart rushed down the mountain. France, traditionally, was fuming, Germany moved its borders towards it and sent Austria to help (I’m not sure about this point because I don’t look at the sources), the Balkans flared up and... thanks to palace intrigues, without understanding how this happened, Niki gives permission for mobilization.
                        But Willie, in his last letters, tried to dissuade him from this... begged him - don’t do this, because Mobilization is War, you can’t turn back. But one way or another, Nicky declared Mobilization (war), and Willie kept his word and officially declared war.
                        But he did not start hostilities.
                        He attacked France, as he had planned for a long time. Moreover, he was assured through diplomatic channels that England would definitely not interfere in the conflict.
                        But as soon as the guns roared lol England immediately entered the war.
                        But despite this, the Germans very quickly found themselves near Paris and-and-and-and?
                        Correctly Yes Niki immediately threw the still unmobilized Army into East Prussia and Galicia.
                        So who attacked whom...
                        Either Gavrila or Ferdinand...
                        Either Willy is in Paris...
                        Either England versus Germany...
                        Either Russia to East Prussia...
                        Overton's windows opened at the speed of switching traffic lights. Therefore, each interested person chooses what is dear to him.
                        And this is what an unfortunate, exalted Jewish youth with a pistol can do on a Serbian street.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        I’m looking forward to the answer - after that we can continue in REAL history, and not in Soviet nonsense

                        Excuse me, but what is your citizenship?
                        Don't take it as an insult again, but after such a remark you can decide that you are either quite young and studied only from Soros's books, or are extremely biased by class, or are a citizen of another state. All three options do not testify to the objectivity, balance and impartiality of your views. And that's exactly what I would like.
                      9. -3
                        February 11 2024
                        Who started the Mobilization

                        movement of troops inside its territory is the sovereign right of the state. Or do you suggest that RI stand in a bow and listen to the commands of your German masters?
                        Can't wait! It was your “genius” Stalin who cowardly stood in the lotus position in front of his masters - and was afraid to bring the troops into readiness. Only the Soviet shkolota does not know what a defeat this turned out to be for the regular army, but that’s why she is a shkolota.

                        So there is no need for fantasies about the “factual” and who moved where.
                        Historical fact - Germany declared war on RI. EVERYTHING, the rest is nonsense from slaves - lovers of listening to instructions from German masters. I’m not one of them, I’ll leave this for the flawed Leninists who surrendered their homeland to the Germans, who betrayed their saviors from the Republic of Ingushetia - you, by the way, are very similar to them.
                        Exactly the same “objective knowledge” about
                        1) the inability of the tsarist government to industrialize - even refuted by the Tsar's enemy Lenin, see Development of capitalism in Russia. PSS, vol.3
                        but when did the Soviet klutzes ever read their leader?
                        2) outright lies “Russia attacked Germany” - the fact is that Germany attacked the Republic of Ingushetia
                        3) "brilliant" Stalin - servilely afraid to mobilize troops to fight back and fled to the Volga - many times further than the RIA retreated
                        4) the slavish love of the scoops for to the German masters who betrayed the Republic of Ingushetia, which saved their state in the 19th century - traitors always hold the same moral standards in high esteem

                        ps cherry - you, who don’t even know who declared war, are starting to talk about “Soros’s books” and “objectivity”!
                      10. 0
                        February 12 2024
                        The liberals have overcome eco rot. Don't choke.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        the movement of troops within its territory is the sovereign right of the state.

                        Mobilization is always war, because martial law is introduced in the country. I am telling you this as a military man.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Or do you suggest that RI stand in a bow and listen to the commands of your German masters?

                        And for this
                        Quote: N.M.
                        they hit the face
                        , especially those whose owners are English.

                        Quote: N.M.
                        It was your “genius” Stalin who cowardly stood in the lotus position in front of his masters - and was afraid to bring the troops into readiness.

                        And for this too. For Stalin just carried out a hidden mobilization on the eve of the war, bringing the size of the Army to 5,3 mln. bayonets And he deployed them in three echelons in a western direction (see the American film about this “What We Are Fighting For,” where this is even shown in animation for clarity), while also keeping large groups in Transcaucasia and the Far East.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Only the Soviet shkolota does not know what a defeat this turned out to be for the regular army, but that’s why she is a shkolota.

                        What monstrous game and illiteracy. Look in the mirror, is your tongue split? Doesn't the poison drip?
                        Did Harry Potter teach you History? Or was it studied from the Conan the Barbarian comics? This is just some kind of shame... Who hired you for serious work with such knowledge? Or "golden youth"?
                        Quote: N.M.
                        There is no need for fantasies about the “factual” and who moved where.
                        Historical fact - Germany declared war on the Republic of Ingushetia. ALL

                        lol laughing Really schoolboy... what Yopsel pugsel...
                        Russia declared Mobilization, Germany declared war on it, as it promised in this case. But it was Russia that attacked Germany (East Prussia). Army of General Samsonov.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        nonsense from slaves who love to listen to instructions from German masters.

                        WHAT slaves are you talking about now, young man?
                        Quote: N.M.
                        “brilliant” Stalin - servilely afraid to mobilize troops to fight back and fled to the Volga - many times further than the RIA retreated

                        Are you hysterical?
                        Take a sedative.
                        Stalin WON the war.
                        And RI, under the power of the passion-bearer, LOST TWO wars. Moreover, the second is solely because of the TREASON of their “allies” - England and France.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        the slavish love of the Soviets for their German masters

                        laughing Actually, in the GDR, the USSR maintained a group of half a million people, so only the victim of the EG does not know who was the master.
                        ...Damn, this must be such a state of insanity that Soros is driving young people...Aren't you digging the sea there yet?
                        Quote: N.M.
                        saved their state of RI in the 19th century

                        Young man (!!!), do you even know that at that time there was NO Germany yet??
                        In its place there were more than fifty scattered principalities and Prussia! Which were brought together into one state by Bismarck. And at the very beginning of WWI, Bismarck seems to have still been alive.
                        It's easy not to know this... SHAME.
                        And the armies of several such German principalities/kingdoms took part in Napoleon’s army. Read F. Glinka - who stood against us on the Borodino field.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        moral standards are held in high esteem

                        Yes, it’s hard not to be convinced of this by your example... It’s unfortunate.
                      11. -2
                        February 12 2024
                        The main thing that is not like you is the servile abomination of traitors to the motherland - the Stalinists. She has long been regurgitating lies from you that have been refuted even by the enemy of Russia - Lenin.
                        but when you were dipped into your lies - you crawled out of all the cracks, how can your relatives still stand you? Don't they hate living with a liar?
                      12. -2
                        February 12 2024
                        Mobilization is always war, because martial law is introduced in the country. I am telling you this as a military man.

                        At least you filter your confessions. then you are an economist, then you are saving the oil industry, and now you are also a military man))

                        Of these “military” people, only good German serfs come out, who are afraid to even sneeze without the owner’s permission.

                        in general, “military”, step by step to read Lenin where he left no stone unturned in your fantasies about the “backwardness” of the tsarist government
                      13. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        What monstrous game and illiteracy. Look in the mirror, is your tongue split? Doesn't the poison drip?

                        What, you don’t have enough of your own to return to normal?
                        come on, tell us that in 41 we were not defeated, that your Stalinist geniuses did not drive millions into captivity!!! Russian soldiers who, in months, did not reach where RIA had not retreated in years.
                        Stalinist, at least Marshals Rokossovsky, Zhukov, etc., read about what remains of the first personnel divisions of the Red Army
                        and it’s no use looking in the mirror - German servants don’t know shame
                      14. -2
                        February 12 2024
                        Russia declared Mobilization, Germany declared war on it, as it promised in this case. But it was Russia that attacked Germany (East Prussia). Army of General Samsonov

                        Do you also wear underpants at home with your neighbor’s permission? or you’re afraid that he’ll tell you the hell out of it and just walk around without your underwear in fear that something might happen.

                        ps the funny thing is that the “military” is surprised that after the enemy declared war, the RIA attacked him, and not clarified several times - “are they really attacked? Don’t give in to provocations.”

                        that's for sure - shkolota, "military")))
                      15. -2
                        February 12 2024
                        WHAT slaves are you talking about now, young man?

                        grandpa, if you don’t understand, then it’s definitely not your thing to read here.
                        ps the mountain has been stolen from you again and now tell me how you saved the entire Russian oil industry from destruction?
                        Sharapov's nonsense, of course)))
                      16. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Are you hysterical?
                        Take a sedative.
                        Stalin WON the war.

                        Of course, hysteria - from laughter at how you get out of it when you are caught in a lie.
                        I'll catch you again
                        And RI, under the power of the passion-bearer, LOST TWO wars

                        RI lost outright, and lost 2 TIMES less killed than the Japanese - see Soviet demographer Urlanis, whom you, like everyone else, haven’t read.
                        and the Leninists-Stalinists lost WWI - yes, yes, Stalin is a “genius”, ha-ha, he was also in the communist government, which stood on 4 fulcrums, obediently giving the Germans everything they demanded under the Brest-Litovsk Treaty. Rea, unlike you and these German slaves, did not capitulate.
                        И this is a historical fact, that's how I caught you in a lie, congratulations, Mr. Lie
                        and yes, Stalin personally “won”, this is the one who was afraid to even go to the front - he collapsed (read Mikoyan’s memoirs) from fright on the road)))
                        But you don’t know this either, because you don’t read anything, you’re just fantasizing.
                      17. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Actually, in the GDR the USSR maintained a group of half a million

                        and this somehow prevented the Germans and all the other state “people’s democracies” from milking the Soviet ones?
                        That’s how it’s immediately clear that you have inherited knowledge and understanding at the level of your grandfather - a couple of classes of TsPsh.
                        What should you learn in your spare time so as not to rave.

                        then you will understand that in the end the Soviets screwed themselves up, because only the lazy did not use them.
                        and Stalin’s “brilliant” creation, the USSR, collapsed without even a QUARTER of the time that the one created by the “backward” Romanovs lived.
                        but only the victim of raising an illiterate grandmother does not know that you will recognize them by their deeds.
                      18. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        And at the very beginning of WWI, Bismarck seems to have still been alive.

                        grandfather, drink memoria, although it won’t help with your “knowledge”

                        Otto von Bismarck -April 1, 1815 - July 30, 1898
                        in fact, this has long been clear, as soon as you began to carry a blizzard about Ri attacked Germany
                        but you made my day, it’s not every time you manage to find such a vain dunno

                        Yes, it’s hard not to be convinced of this in your example.
                        what love for the “genius” Stalin can lead to - selective stupidity and ignorance
                      19. -1
                        February 11 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        facts are stubborn things

                        Exactly ! Especially if these facts are not distorted and adjusted to fit your absolutely erroneous concept.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        the allies were chosen correctly - it was this bloc that won.

                        And Russia lost AGAIN.
                        Betrayed by these "correct" allies.
                        Who also carried out an intervention on Russian territory! They overthrew their ally Niki! Doomed to death along with the whole family in the basement of Ipatiev’s house! They appropriated Russian gold pledged to their banks for military supplies!
                        “Tell me who your ally (friend) is and I will tell you WHO YOU ARE” - Folk Wisdom.
                        ... And this word may turn out to be obscene.
                        And this “path to destruction” began for Russia, which we lost from the first days of the reign of Nikolai Aleksandrovich Romanov, with preparation for the REV. That is why studying this topic is important for understanding and realizing the COST and consequences of Irresponsible and Incompetent government. A comprehensive study and analysis of this period should become a reference book for a Russian official of any rank. And especially among senior officials. In order to learn from the terrible examples of the past to avoid the traps of enemies and build our own sovereign policy.
                        And this is especially important now, because history REPEATS itself. And he will punish you for unlearned lessons even more severely than before.
                        And I would like to see my Fatherland strong, wise, sovereign and victorious.
                      20. -1
                        February 11 2024
                        Exactly ! Especially if you don’t distort these facts and don’t adjust them to fit your absolutely erroneous concept

                        So I don’t understand why you are twisting history and writing that the Republic of Ingushetia rushed to Germany, when even the dumbest student knows that Germany declared war?
                        This is something from Stalin’s “genius”, am I right?
                        Who also carried out an intervention on Russian territory
                        It’s not good to first write about distortion, and then - distort and NOT write about the fact that it was the Soviets who betrayed both the Republic of Ingushetia and the allies by concluding a separate peace with the enemy, starting to feed him three throats, giving him gold, and even robbing the allies by refusing to pay their debts .
                        I wonder if in real life you are offended when people hit you in the face for not repaying a debt? Or do you still pay back your debts?
                        Tell me who your ally (friend) is and I will tell you - WHO ARE YOU... And this word may turn out to be obscene
                        This is accurate, because only obscenities can describe Austria, saved from the uprising, and Germany, saved from Napoleon, and who immediately betrayed the Republic of Ingushetia into the Crimean War. Austria put forward an ultimatum so directly. But they are the ones you chose as your friends.
                        “Congratulations,” you are definitely an expert in “Irresponsible and Incompetent Power” since you offer such “allies.” Fortunately, RI had smarter authorities, so We only retreated to the Volga with your “genius” Stalin, and not with the pro-Russian imperial power of Nicholas 2.
                        И This is a historical fact, not a conspiracy theory about spies at court
                      21. -1
                        February 11 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Even the dumbest student knows that Germany declared war?
                        This is something from Stalin’s “genius”, am I right?

                        Everything is clear - “a passionate young man with a burning gaze.” Only a student from Soros can put Stalin's genius in quotation marks. You forgot about galoshes. It's like calling Mendeleev a half-educated alchemist. If you like the Western school and its authorities so much, then check out the opinions of Churchill, Roosevelt, and De Gaulle on this matter - they knew him personally and their assessment is much more significant than yours. Or ask the opinion of Marshal Rokosovsky, Academician Kurchatov on this matter... although you probably have other authorities.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        it was the Soviets who betrayed both the Republic of Ingushetia and the allies by concluding a separate peace with the enemy, starting to feed him three throats, giving him gold,

                        And again ignorance of the true history. The delegation at the negotiations with Germany was headed by Trotsky (an agent of American banking houses), who during the negotiations put forward the thesis “Neither peace, nor war.” After which German troops entered Ukraine and moved towards Petrograd. And the Russian army went home. The men no longer wanted to fight, especially since they began to divide the land in the villages. So we had to hastily create the Red Army from scratch.
                        The Germans occupied Ukraine and Crimea quickly and with virtually no resistance. And we organized the export of grain and other foodstuffs ourselves. To stop their further advance, that very Obscene Peace was concluded. Lenin called it that, saying that it was only for the sake of a respite, because Germany would soon be in ruins on the Western Front. It was in that Obscene World that the gold was handed over to them. And then they gave it to the Angles, Franks and Americans.
                        But I will not give you a lecture on the history of the Revolution and the Civil War. And you won’t burden yourself with such work either.
                        I’ll just say that during that (Civil) War, my great-uncle commanded the 25th Shock Division (Chapaevskaya) after the death of Vasily Ivanovich, and before that incident he was his deputy and brigade commander-1. In the film of the same name, it was to him that Chapai showed the place of the commander on the march, in defense and in battle on potatoes. My grandfather was slightly wounded during reconnaissance.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Are you offended in real life when people hit you in the face for not repaying your debt?

                        I tried not to get into debt, but it wasn’t so easy to get into my face; after all, I competed in the heavyweight division in the past. And my coach founded the Thai Boxing Federation. Good must be with fists . And on one fist in a lying position, I did push-ups 50 times, doing 2-4 such approaches a day. But this is in my youth. A kind, big and cheerful man with calluses on his fists does not really encourage hooligans to fight.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        We retreated to the Volga only with your “genius” Stalin, and not with the pro-Russian imperial power of Nicholas 2.

                        lol It’s ridiculous.
                        We celebrated the Victory with Stalin in Berlin. And with the passion-bearer Nikolai, they lost two wars, received shame in Tsushima and Portsmouth, and then the positional meat grinder of WWII. And the Civil War.
                        THIS is an indisputable fact, and not your passion-bearing owl on the globe.
                      22. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        although you probably have other authorities.
                        Naturally, they are different from yours, those people whom I caught lying twice just today.
                        I suppose now you’ll also give a “quote” from Rokossov’s, since God loves a trinity?

                        and here are several of my authorities and their opinion about your lying “genius” Stalin, whom they themselves saw
                        Candidate member of the CPSU Central Committee in 1952-61, Deputy of the Supreme Council of the 2nd-5th convocations, Army General Gorbatov A.V. Years and wars. M.: Military Publishing House, first edition 1965, quotes from the 1989 edition:
                        “If,” I thought, “only I was arrested, it would be my personal grief. Because so many dedicated and responsible workers of all specialties have been arrested. This is already the grief of the whole country.” Considering war inevitable and imminent, I thought about how the new commanders, who had just been promoted to high positions and had no combat experience, would conduct battles and operations. Even if they are honest, brave and devoted people to the Motherland, the division will be commanded by yesterday’s battalion commander, the corps will be commanded by the regimental commander, and the army and the front will be, at best, by the division commander or his deputy... How many unnecessary losses and failures there will be! What the country has to go through in this regard! ...
                        There were many reasons for this. But I probably won’t be mistaken if I say that Our main problem was Stalin’s fatal delusion. We believed in Him then without complaint, but he turned out to be blind and disoriented everyone with the notorious TASS message of June 14, 1941.
                        (This TASS Report directly stated: “in the opinion of Soviet circles, rumors about Germany’s intention to break the pact and launch an attack on the USSR are devoid of any basis, and the recent transfer of German troops, freed from operations in the Balkans, to the eastern and northeastern areas of Germany is connected, presumably, with other motives that have nothing to do with Soviet-German relations” - note) ...
                        It was believed that the enemy was advancing so quickly because of the surprise of his attack and because Germany had put the industry of almost all of Europe at its service. Of course it was. But my previous fears made me sweat: how will we fight, having lost so many experienced commanders even before the war? This, undoubtedly, was at least one of the main reasons for our failures, although they did not talk about it or presented the matter as if 1937-1938, having cleared the army of “traitors”, increased its power


                        Simonov Konstantin Mikhailovich Conversations with Marshal of the Soviet Union A.M. Vasilevsky. 1967 year
                        "Through the eyes of a man of my generation." Reflections on I.V. Stalin
                        What can we say about the consequences for the army of '37 - '38? You say that without '37 there would have been no defeats in '41, but I will say more. Without '37, there might not have been a war at all in '41. In the fact that Hitler decided to start a war in 1941, a large role was played by the assessment of the degree of defeat of the military personnel that occurred in our country. But what can I say, when in 1939 I had to be on the commission during the transfer of the Leningrad Military District from Khozin to Meretskov, there were a number of divisions commanded by captains, because everyone who was higher was completely arrested
                        .

                        And the opinion of these senior military men is clearly more significant than the lies of the half-educated man from whom Bismarck lived until WWI.

                        but you, like all Stalinists, don’t have the conscience to admit that you and your “genius” have screwed yourself up to your ears
                      23. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        I suppose now you’ll bring a “quote” from Rokossov’s

                        “For me, Stalin is a saint” - Rokosovsky’s response to Khrushchev to the proposal to condemn Stalin.
                        Gorbatov is a scoundrel, a whiner and a mediocrity. Returned to the Army and received a division only due to the acute shortage of the rapidly growing number of the Army. For open propaganda of Trotskyism, condemnation of the authorities for the arrest of Tukhachevsky and Co. in front of his subordinates, was not shot, not arrested, but only removed from command. I whined all my life.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Conversations with Marshal of the Soviet Union A. M. Vasilevsky. 1967

                        Vasilevsky was right in his assessment of the situation, but for censorship reasons he was not able to name the main culprits of the terror of 1937-1938. and the execution of military personnel loyal to the Fatherland. It was Khrushchev, who spoke at the 1936 congress with a proposal to abandon the holding of free elections on a competitive basis, but to carry out purges of “hostile elements” in the state and the Army. The pogrom of command personnel began in response to the arrest of the conspirators led by Tukhochevsky. Trotsky sent instructions to his agents (they were intercepted and presented during the investigation) to respond to the arrest of each member of the conspiracy with ten denunciations against commanders loyal to the Party and the People, so that the investigative authorities would choke in this wave of denunciations, and there would be many times more innocent victims than the true culprits.
                        Based on such a denunciation, my great-uncle (commander of the 1938th Chapaev Division) was arrested in 25 and executed on the same day. The relatives were told that “10 years without the right to correspondence), my wife died in the Kazakh camps, and my daughter ended up in an orphanage. This is my aunt.
                        In the same 1938, the father of that man was arrested and shot on the same day, through whose brainstorming group the same program for the oil industry was implemented in 1992 (by the way, his mother is Rurikovich - the mother is from the Vorontsov family, and his surname is Romanov - this is a priestly family).
                        But we both knew WHOSE signature was on the verdict, who headed the “troika” - Khrushchev.
                        Therefore, in the most prominent place in Viktor Vasilyevich’s bookcase was the “Complete Works of J.V. Stalin.” And he remembered well the “Stalinist bison” - the leading employees of the State Planning Committee, under whose leadership he began his work.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Bismarck lived until WWII.

                        Didn't make it. My memory failed me for associations, and I didn’t even click the mouse to check.
                        But how much foam is there for one reservation?
                        And there is no shame, just like conscience - a distinctive feature of a liberal.
                      24. +1
                        February 12 2024
                        Colleague, forgive me generously, but this is the second time you’ve written this.
                        Quote: bayard
                        By the way, he is Rurikovich on his mother’s side - a mother from the Vorontsov family

                        The Vorontsovs are NOT Rurikovichs, even if we recognize the origin of their family from the legendary warrior of Vladimir “Red Sun” - Shimon Afrikanovich.
                        The reliably known ancestor of the Vorontsovs, the thousand-year-old Ivan Kalita, is Protasy Fedorovich, the founder of the Velyaminov family. This is also very cool and there is no need to attribute anything.
                      25. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The reliably known ancestor of the Vorontsovs, the thousand-year-old Ivan Kalita, is Protasy Fedorovich, the founder of the Velyaminov family. This is also very cool and there is no need to attribute anything.

                        To be honest, I first heard about the fact that the Vorontsov family belongs to the Rurikovichs a couple of weeks ago from Klyosov, who had just finished studying the DNA geneology of Russian aristocratic families. Precisely the Rurikovichs. And in the given list of genera from Rurik, he also had the Vorontsov family, which came as a surprise to me. But Klyosov is a serious scientist and all the leading aristocratic (and not only) families of the world turn to him for confirmation of their genealogies... So this news is that my old friend and his father are also “Rurikovichs” (specially put in quotation marks), although on my mother's side, I was hooked. I was not specifically interested in the genealogy of the Vorontsovs, but I took this news from Klyosov as an additional and unexpected touch to the portrait of a person I greatly respect. So I mentioned this only under the impression of such news from Klyosov.
                        And I respect him not at all because of his pedigree, but as a scientist and a person. Yes, and he mentioned it only because (for the second time) that his father and my great-uncle were arrested and executed in 1938 - on the topic of those repressions and attitudes towards them. Viktor Vasilyevich respected Stalin very much, and as a Muscovite he knew very well who the true author of that terror was. hi
                      26. 0
                        February 13 2024
                        The man has a mania for attributing to himself at least some “achievements” - either he saved the “Russian oil industry”, then he had to study data on Count Frederick in the “special archives of the KGB”, then he is voting for the economist Sharapov somewhere out there. multi-machine operator -
                        and the Swede and the reapers are a player on the pipe))
                      27. -1
                        February 13 2024
                        “For me, Stalin is a saint” - Rokosovsky’s answer

                        There is no such phrase in Rokossovsky’s memoirs - you lied again and gave a fake “quote.”
                        actually not the first time
                        Gorbatov is a scoundrel, a whiner and a mediocrity

                        Are you saying this as the commander of amusing Stalinist losers?
                        So Gorbatov, for his merits, was appointed commandant of Berlin, and then the Airborne Forces, but what do you know, Stalin’s lover of lies.
                        not shot, not arrested, but only removed from command

                        and again you were caught lying - Gorbatov was convicted, spent over a year in camps near Magadan and was completely rehabilitated, unlike you - he lied four times in this thread alone.
                        For censorship reasons, I was not able to name the main culprits of the terror of 1937-1938.

                        That’s what I knew - now a Stalinist caught in a lie will begin to write that Stalin was a simpleton fool who was fooled by everyone. just like Lenin, whose entire guard turned out to be traitors)))
                        The funny thing is that the Leninists - Stalinists don’t even understand how they are lowering their “geniuses” - below the sewer, where they belong.
                        It was Khrushchev

                        just look at the year - 1967 year, Khrushchev has been out of power for 3 years already; Brezhnev has already debunked his “voluntarism”))) but since you are a complete ignoramus when it comes to dates, like with Bismarck, then write about some kind of “censorship”, when at that time Khrushchev was already being “watered down” by everyone who could.
                        And there is no shame, just like conscience - a distinctive feature of a liberal

                        how it burned you when they poked your nose into your complete ignorance of even the most basic things.
                        You should get down to your direct business - “saving” the Russian oil industry, or voting for Sharapov, without your votes we won’t survive))
                      28. -1
                        February 13 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        There is no such phrase in Rokossovsky’s memoirs - you lied again and gave a fake “quote.”

                        See the unedited version of the memoir. This phrase of Rokosovsky is known as a response to Khrushchev and has recently been often quoted. Despite the fact that Rokosovsky was arrested, interrogated with partiality by Yezhov’s henchmen and was released by a commission to review the cases, created in the first days of Beria’s post. This was an intra-party war among the Trotskyists for control of the Army. And the price of such a struggle was very high. To stop that wave of terror, Stalin had to cleanse the ranks of the NKVD in several stages, but the details are not important to you.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Gorbatov was convicted and spent over a year in camps near Magadan

                        He was arrested later. At first he was suspended, he came to Moscow with his wife, walked around the offices, then he started chatting again, and that’s when he was imprisoned. But his indignant subordinates also demanded imprisonment (not just removal) when, before the formation, he began to pour water on the authorities in defense of Tukhachevsky and Co.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        just like Lenin, whose entire guard turned out to be traitors)))

                        Until 1917, Trotsky was never an ally of Lenin (although they knew each other), but rather an opponent; he was brought to Lenin by Sverdlov. And not everyone turned out to be traitors. Stalin, Ordzhenikidze, Voroshilov (participants of the 2nd Congress), Kalinin, Lunacharsky and many others. Those who betrayed were mainly those who joined already in 1917 and/or had exorbitant ambitions in the internal party struggle that had begun. Times were harsh, they all went through the Civil War, they saw (and shed) a lot of blood, and therefore they were not shy in their methods of struggle.
                        But they didn't start the revolution. They took power only when, under the rule of the Provisional Government, the Empire fell apart and chaos ensued in the country. The empire was destroyed by the Februaryists. The Bolsheviks reassembled these fragments of the empire under a new brand. And career Russian officers and generals helped them in this (we remember the role of General Bonch-Bruevich). They created and led the Red Army, won the Civil War, got rid of the Entente interventionists, and later went into the shadows, as teachers at academies, in archives, and simply in retirement. Their role was not included in history for political reasons (the times were difficult), but their role was great. They saved many of their comrades who chose the White side (the story of General Khanzhin alone is worth it). I knew many of their descendants, I studied with Yudenich’s great-grandson (he is very similar to his great-grandfather).
                        When you analyze the causes and origins of the collapse of the Republic of Ingushetia, you certainly come across the Russo-Japanese War, during the period of preparation for it. It was after this that the Empire went downhill. And the beginning of this process coincides with the beginning of the reign of Nicholas II. Before, I treated him well, I was even a strong supporter of glorification, I was at the service in “Christ the Savior” when this happened, the letter and invitation from the patriarch remained as a keepsake. But when there was more time to study the documents of that period, studying the period of the REV (and who among us did not “replay” that war, all the military academies of the world were studying its experience ... in general, it was nicknamed “training war”), all the materials that became available... you understand in full the meaning of personality in History.
                        Listen to Fursov’s lectures, he taught at Yale (for you as an Anglophile), he presented this topic well, you don’t have to pick up the pieces.
                      29. -1
                        February 13 2024
                        [quote] This phrase of Rokosovsky is known as a response to Khrushchev and has recently been often quoted [/quote]
                        experts like you.

                        [quote]See the unedited version of the memoirs [/quote] that was shown to you in the special archives of the KGB?))))
                        you rock, thank you

                        [quote]To stop that wave of terror, Stalin had to purge the ranks of the NKVD in several stages [/quote]
                        and then cleanse your comrades, and then - marshals and generals who defeated Nazism, and before that - grandfather’s guard in a cap, but they were all Trotskyists))
                        Can you come up with something new? I can’t laugh so much at the stupidity of the narrow-minded Stalinists
                        [quote]Ordzhenikidze [/quote]
                        read Mikoyan A.I. It was.
                        Member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, deputy chairman of the Council of People's Commissars (SNK) of the USSR and member of the Defense Committee under the SNK of the USSR
                        [quote]I wanted to emphasize that Sergo was also an outstanding person. In the words of Gorky, a Man with a capital M. His suicide in 1937 is on Stalin’s conscience[/ Quote]
                        oh, what a bad job you did - washing your pants again due to ignorance of the “details”
                        [quote]He was arrested later[/quote] and before that you lied
                        [quote]Gorbatov -... was not shot, not arrested, but only removed from command [/ Quote]
                        Stalinist, when will you stop lying?
                        [quote]He was arrested later [/quote] - a common practice, not always, but most often. As an example, general, twice hero of the USSR Smushkevich. was removed from the post of chief of the Red Army Air Force and in August 40 was moved first to the secondary position of inspector general of the Air Force, and in December to the position of assistant chief of the General Staff for aviation, even further away from combat aviation. On June 8, 1941, he was arrested, and on October 28, in the most hopeless days of the war, when the Red Army was so short of experienced military leaders, after inhuman torture, he was shot without trial at the NKVD training ground near Kuibyshev.
                        SO don't dodge, it won't work
                        [quote]The empire fell apart[/quote] and again you are lying. It was Lenin (and Stalin as People's Commissar of the Nationalities) who signed and were responsible for the independence treaties with Poland, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Again, your “associative” memory has failed you))
                        [quote]General Bonch-Bruevich[/quote] oh yes!! a “combat” general who spent all his time (except for a couple of months at the beginning) in his WWII pants at headquarters, and then became an errand boy - an entruster. Where are Denikin and Kornilov, who never left the front line and whose units were called Steel and Iron, compared to him?
                        [quote]Listen to the lectures [/quote] read the documents, maybe at least some of your own opinion will appear, otherwise you can only learn paraphrases, alas
                      30. 0
                        February 13 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        which was shown to you in the special archives of the KGB?))))

                        I was not there, I was invited to work with documents of a completely different nature.

                        Quote: N.M.
                        and then purge your comrades-in-arms, and then the marshals and generals who defeated Nazism, and before that, the grandfather’s guard in a cap, but these were all Trotskyists))

                        Not all . There were also simply traitors, embezzlers (like the Minister of Aviation Industry during the war), looters, and simply thieves. There are always these, but they are not cleaned everywhere.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        His suicide in 1937 is on Stalin’s conscience

                        Quote: N.M.
                        Mikoyan A.I.

                        Is this the one that was creeping between the streams and in front of Nikita?
                        Quote: N.M.
                        , general, twice hero of the USSR Smushkevich. was removed from the post of chief of the Red Army Air Force and in August 40 was moved first to the secondary position of inspector general of the Air Force, and in December to the position of assistant chief of the General Staff for aviation, even further away from combat aviation. On June 8, 1941, he was arrested, and on October 28, in the most hopeless days of the war, when the Red Army was so short of experienced military leaders, after inhuman torture, he was shot without trial at the NKVD training ground near Kuibyshev.

                        Is this the one who ordered the removal of sights and weapons from fighter planes a couple of days before the start of the war? By the way, not everything was completed. And through whose fault we lost almost all of our aviation in the border zone? So almost the entire Air Force headquarters was shot there.
                        And the position of deputy. General Staff for Aviation, the position of Commander-in-Chief of Aviation, equivalent. And before that, Voroshilov took him as the chief inspector of the Air Force, to help himself - for the organization and control of the aviation industry. He himself left the post of Minister of Defense to control the defense industry.
                        Maybe Pavlov, who instead of carrying out the order to bring the troops into full combat readiness, went to the theater, collapsed the front, abandoned the armies in cauldrons, will you also regret it?
                        You will definitely regret it, because in 2022 we also pitied everyone for their failures. The Belgorod, Bryansk, Voronezh regions are under shelling, drones are flying to Moscow, Engels and St. Petersburg, my city (Donetsk) is under regular shelling... Two years of the Northern Military District, and from the center of Donetsk the roar is constantly heard from the front.
                        And no one is to blame for the “successes”.
                        Everything goes according to plan .
                        Is that really better?
                        Although for you, yes - after all, everything is the same as with Nikola-2.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        How far are Denikin and Kornilov from him?

                        One of them personally arrested the royal family... No?
                        He is good ?
                        The other one lost, became frayed with nerves and left command to Wrangel.... What a handsome guy... right?
                        They lost. One died, the other left Russia before the end of the Civil War.
                        Do you want to tell me about one more thing? The youngest general in the Russian Army - he became a general at the age of 30. Commander of the Cossack division in the 1st Shock Army of General Khanzhin, as part of Kolchak's army. General Borodin is a handsome man, a daredevil - without any irony. It was he who organized that famous raid with the destruction of the headquarters of the Chapaev division, when Chapai also died. Borodin did not die, as officially stated, but was wounded and the Cossacks took him to the ancestral village of the hereditary atamans of the All-Great Ural Army and Semirechensk Khanzhin (the commander of his army). There he ended his days back in 1975. All his sons and grandsons became officers... although I can’t say for sure about the youngest Sashka, but I think he did too. All served the Fatherland.
                        And Denikin fled.
                        And Kolchak's staff officer Dunaev also stayed. And his children served the Fatherland. One became a great general, the other a colonel...
                        And Denikin fled. Until the end of the Civil War.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        never left the front line,

                        There were many of them. Many of them chose the side of the Reds, another part did not make a choice at all, but they did not fight against their People.
                        It was not the Bolsheviks who destroyed the Empire, but the White movement did not celebrate the Tsar either, and fought with money from the Entente. Against the "rebellious slaves". And they received tinsel.
                        And Denikin fled.
                        The North Military District has been going on for two years, and for a year and a half the fronts are like in WWII - this is how the “new aristocracy” prepared for war...
                        Stalin’s popularity as the leader of the state is up to 60%, and among his supporters there are more and more young people... aren’t you afraid for the future with such statistics? Or is it precisely for this reason that millions of Wahhabis are imported under the guise of construction workers?
                        Those who do not learn the lessons of History are taught by History in practice.
                        But I really wouldn’t want to. I’ve seen enough in 10 years of war, but it will be worse everywhere if you don’t take charge of your mind.
                        Otherwise, the Punishing Mother - Karma will come, and it will be too late to make excuses.
                        Peace to you. And Reason.
                      31. 0
                        February 13 2024
                        I was not there, I was invited to work with documents of a completely different nature
                        yes, yes, I remember - about the spy Count Fredericks. ))
                        Where did you get this “quote” from then? Because you obviously haven’t read Rokossov’s “soldier’s duty”, otherwise you would have known that in them the marshal spoke about the activities of your “genius”: “It’s true, At the end of the thirties, serious mistakes were made. Our military personnel also suffered, which could not but affect the organization and training of troops.”That's it, Stalin's liar.
                        There were also just traitors
                        You're talking about Lenin's comrades-in-arms, right? For the first time, you are right - all these Bolsheviks, both Lenin and Stalin, were really traitors to their homeland.
                        Is this the one that was creeping between the streams and in front of Nikita?
                        This is the one who
                        commie of the Leninist draft and Stalinist Member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, deputy chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and member of the Defense Committee of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR - an exemplary Bolshevik
                        )) But you described the Stalinists absolutely correctly, a copy of the mustachioed bastard.
                        ordered a couple of days before the start of the war Remove sights and weapons from fighters?

                        You, like all Stalinists, have problems with reading comprehension, as well as with “dates.” 8 June 1941 year he was arrested" so order he could only in your feverish delirium and straight from prison, oh.
                        Pavlova

                        read the marshals and top officials of the USSR and try to think, it’s difficult for you, but try.
                        Marshal K.K. Rokossovsky "Knowing the commander of the Western Front, General D.G. Pavlova, long before the start of the war (in 1930, he was a regiment commander in the division of which I commanded), could have concluded in advance that he was a match for Kirponos, if not weaker than him.”
                        Marshall G.K. Zhukov "Pavlov had the ceiling of a division commander, but he was tried as a front commander."
                        Deputy Chairman of the USSR Council of Ministers A. Mikoyan "So it was" chapter 43"There was nothing overly compromising against Pavlov. Absolutely pure, honest, personally charming man, impeccable courage, loyal, able to lead tank troops within a brigade, but had no other high command experience. A he was immediately appointed commander of all troops of the Belarusian district. He can only be blamed for the fact that he did not categorically refuse such a nomination."
                        Why were yesterday’s brigade commanders assigned to the front commander? but because one mustachioed cowardly nonentity was afraid for his power and, not caring about the defense of the country, destroyed everyone in a row.
                        after all, everything is like under Nikola-2
                        Do you have a problem with knowledge? Because it was under your stupid yoska that the Germans captured Donetsk. a Stalinist is always a liar.
                        The other one lost
                        kicking the many times superior units of the Reds almost to Moscow - really handsome, and certainly not like Yosya Stalin when going to the front - read Mikoyan.
                        I'll tell you about one more thing
                        Can you stay within the framework of a discussion question, and not write everything that comes to your mind?
                        There were a lot of them
                        many parts called Steel and Iron? Have you been caught lying again, for the umpteenth time? I've lost count. By the way, your “icon” Bonch Bruevich couldn’t do this - he was a little thin, like Stalin, now you can wag your fillet))
                        Denikin - fled
                        that is, when Lenin went to Europe it was emigration, and when others it was “fleeing”)) typical Soviet verbiage
                        Stalin's popularity as a leader of the state - up to 60%
                        There are always more people with knowledge like yours, nothing can be done about it. By the way, you should at least confirm your figures with something, otherwise what will happen with lies about Rokossovsky’s words))
                        more and more young people are among his supporters
                        there is no need to lie so blatantly.
                        Who does not learn the lessons of History, History teaches him in practice
                        that’s for sure, already from the great French one could have guessed what Stalin’s rule would lead to, but no, only personal running through the rake will teach the Soviets.
                      32. 0
                        February 14 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        yes, yes, I remember - about the spy Count Fredericks.

                        We need to be more careful.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        “True, at the end of the thirties serious mistakes were made. Our military personnel also suffered, which could not but affect the organization and training of troops

                        There is no need to lie and squirm, I wrote about this myself above, indicated the reasons, initiators, and culprits. Moreover, my aunt’s father was also shot then. Like many other commanders who were innocent and not involved in the conspiracy. But you prefer to lie and dodge, pull quotes that are worth nothing and manipulate the facts. Either you have Trotsky as a hero, or Denikin, who had become limp and fled from the defeated army (and after all, Wrangel still resisted), then Rokosovsky “didn’t say that,” or the opportunist Mikoyan as a witness, who betrayed both Stalin and Khrushchev, and lived a long life maneuvering between the streams.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        On June 8, 1941, he was arrested."

                        This means there was a reason for it, since all his closest subordinates during the Air Force command were shot at about the same time. And there was a reason - almost all aviation in the border districts was lost on the first day. Not guilty ? But there was an order - to disperse and camouflage.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        “There was nothing overly compromising against Pavlov.

                        Is it true ? Why didn’t this “impeccable” district put it on alert? Troops were not brought to field camps according to the Order? After the telegram, be especially vigilant on the night of June 22.06.1941, XNUMX. and be prepared for any provocations, he didn’t turn an ear and went to the theater?
                        Feeble-minded? Slob? He destroyed his armies and was “not guilty of anything” according to Mikoyan? Hundreds of thousands killed, hundreds of thousands captured due to his stupidity or treason and “innocent victims”? Stop lying and dodging.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        with your dumb ass

                        Churchill, Roosevelt, de Gaulle, all Soviet academicians, scientists, hundreds of millions of Soviet citizens, one and a half billion people in China, Mahatma Gandhi, and even your idols - Hitler and Goebbels... do not agree with you. . You are lying and slandering again.
                        With such lies and slander, your idol Khrushchev almost destroyed the socialist camp, pushed China away from us, and then made him an enemy, because of his slander and nonsense we lost Indonesia. But he tried for the British, who held him by the testicles with incriminating evidence, which means in your opinion - well done.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        kicking the many times superior units of the Reds almost to Moscow

                        So the Reds didn’t even have an army at that time, they only tried to form it, but once they formed it, they drove Denikin’s bandits all the way to the Black Sea. Until he abandoned the army and ran away for “treatment.” And how “heroes” Denikin’s people plundered the “liberated” cities and villages... But you are right about one thing here - it was Kornilov and Denikin who started the Civil War in Russia. They started fratricide and lawlessness. So again all the droppings are in your pants. Kornilov arrested the royal family, then started a Civil War with Denikin, and on the other hand, your protégé Trotsky and his thugs are an agent and protege of the banking houses of Schiff and Borukh.
                        Where was Stalin at that time?
                        Yes, here he is - he held the defense of Tsaritsyn with Voroshilov and Budyon, and the 1st Cavalry covered itself with glory by driving out ghouls and warmongers.
                        Your pants are full, wear them without taking them off.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        that is, when Lenin went to Europe

                        So then there was no war, he did not lead the army and did not abandon it to destruction. He was a theorist, but at the same time he created a party in which future personnel were trained to lead the Country. And we studied. There was plenty of trash there too.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        many parts called Steel and Iron?

                        Yes, even cast iron, even wood. They perished against the People, turned against them. Have you even read Denikin’s diaries? What did the Cossack robbers do to him? What kind of convoys did they use to drag the loot to their villages? How did the punishers commit atrocities against him? Civil war is like that, the shores are lost.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        there are always more people with knowledge like you

                        There are simply more of us. And knowledge... Your textbooks, curricula, "historical" films with animation... this is the bottom. Don't be offended, but it's true. Like most other products. But there was once a film, it seems “Saving the Emperor” - how a group of goons with a staff captain at the head tried to save the royal family. I still had a good attitude towards Nikolai-2 back then. It turned out to be a challenging western, and the guys played well, and the director did his best. They would have filmed something on the topic of the day, about the Vietnam War, I can suggest a plot, based on real stories about an anti-aircraft missileman who fought two missions there, how he shot down planes from ambushes in the jungle (later he became a general, in retirement he headed the Russian-Vietnamese Friendship Society, to the Vietnamese It will be nice, they loved him, and his son is now in the AP, also a former anti-aircraft gunner), about the pilots, so that there are two of ours and two Vietnamese (in Iran there are Phantoms on the move, we have MiGs - 21\19\17, about the officer a paratrooper who had 4 deployments there, took the Chinese language in the last one when they had a war with China, how he spat out a tooth through a hole under his lip while sitting on a Chinese man tied up (you can make him an American), smoked and smoke came out through the hole. He was from the Vitebsk division, Let him be ashamed - he sent his son to the ATO...
                        And don't talk about England, there's nothing for you there. There is no more queen, and there never will be. And the king is not that... a coat. So, from the provincial one, make not the maternal one, but the Fatherly one, and do everything right.
                        And I have a problem with all the isms, I was not a member of any parties and even left the Komsomol (not due to age) first in the Armed Forces, but at the same time remained in operational work. No one even noticed this. For me there are concepts: Right and wrong. What you are doing is wrong. There is very little time to fix it.
                      33. 0
                        February 14 2024
                        We need to be more careful
                        You should remember that in the previous “series” they wrote, but somehow it doesn’t work out well, “historian - oilman - military man - economist” and all at the same time. ))
                        There is no need to lie and squirm... pull quotes that are worth nothing and manipulate facts

                        Are you talking about Rokossovsky’s words? Towhich are in his memories, in contrast to your outright lies?
                        Yes, it’s nice to see how you get out of it when they stick you in the real words of Rokossovsky, Stalin’s liar!
                        Rokosovsky “didn’t say that”
                        Your “quote”, unlike me, you were never able to confirm with proof, a Stalinist is always a liar. I just know where this “quote” comes from, and you started lying about the first thing that came to mind - about drafts, etc. Go read at least something on the topic, you petty, fraudulent liar.
                        Yes, even cast iron, even wood. They perished against the People
                        o5 you hit the right spot, illiterate expert - “historian”.
                        these units received their honorary names in the war against the enemies of Russia and your masters - the Germans. And the stupid Bolsheviks - Leninists - Stalinists were kicked out of power by the wiser people into the dustbin of history. Isn’t that where you’re writing from now?))
                        You have Trotsky as a hero... Your protégé, Trotsky

                        o5 you have problems with reading comprehension? NOT for me - your close-minded Lenin and Stalin))) For me all Bolsheviks on one "face" - immoral. But it’s nice to see how you are being crippled, because you are in a puddle with your “knowledge”.
                        Mikoyan as a witness, who betrayed both Stalin and Khrushchev

                        So the entire Soviet government is a continuous series of betrayals. I’ll write it down for you, because you yourself are not able to realize it)
                        Lenin betrayed Russia -homeland and gave the Germans over the Brest-Litovsk Treaty a third of the country’s population (56 million)
                        Stalin betrayed Lenin and destroyed all his guards mentioned in the Letter to the Congress
                        Khrushchev betrayed Stalin and destroyed the cult of his personality.
                        Brezhnev betrayed Khrushchev and destroyed his voluntarism.
                        Gorbachev betrayed Brezhnev and destroyed stagnation
                        Yeltsin betrayed Gorbachev and destroyed the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
                        a brief history of the exemplary traitors of the Stalinists - Leninists.

                        but this is for the better, why do we need the rot that gives rise to you - traitors))
                        I was not a member of any parties
                        You turned out to be a bit stupid even for communist klutzes? Well, there's nothing you can do about it.

                        Your textbooks, training programs
                        What do you say about Soviet creations, it’s really nice to see how you were torn when they took you nose to the garbage for a couple of days.

                        Your idols are Hitler and Goebbels


                        Stalinist, teach you what your yoski Stalins and his henchmen bequeathed to you
                        Report Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs Comrade. V. M. Molotova on the foreign policy of the Government at the Extraordinary Fifth Session of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR on October 31, 1939
                        not only pointless, but also it is criminal to wage such a war as the war for the “destruction of Hitlerism”"


                        so that these are your idols, yours and Stalin’s nearby Yoska, who was turned out like a sucker at the market.
                        march wash your crap pants. Wash, they tell you, don’t lick, descendant of the defenders of Hitlerism))
                      34. 0
                        February 15 2024
                        How active is this robot, which has lost contact with the control server... Nothing, the battery will run out soon, it will calm down.
                        But he turned everything out like his guts, what an entertainer. lol
                      35. 0
                        February 16 2024
                        bayard blah blah blah

                        when you poke a stupid Stalinist liar into his lies - bayard begins to squeal and habitually switch to nonsense, instead of giving a link to the “quote” from Rokossov, for example
                        what to do - the Stalinists always had a bad time with knowledge - they took after their dad, the stupid Yoska.
                        just like him You just learned to lie, with the rest you are a complete failure, just like Ilyichonka and Yoska with the building of communism)))

                        streamline, Stalinist liar, I turned you around like a propeller through all your nonsense
                      36. 0
                        February 16 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        N.M.

                        When a Lvov youth comes to Russia and makes a career there, he will remain a Lvov youth until old age. You can take a young man out of Lvov, but you can never take Lvov out of a young man.
                        Go around, poor thing, you've unraveled your insides lol there's nowhere else to go. I promised you smile , and you yourself tried - you turned the whole inside out.
                        Live for now, turn your propeller, enjoy your budget. But not for long.
                      37. -1
                        February 16 2024
                        Lviv youth

                        so this is where you come from, Stalinist liar, how I brought you to light. Now your hatred of Russia and your slavish love for your German Nazi masters are clear.
                        Actually, as I wrote:
                        “a Stalinist is always a liar,” because your empty pumpkin, filled with Lvov garbage, will no longer fit anything except anti-Russian Stalinist abomination.
                        And you, idle lie, I will always continue to turn you here and there - your fate, Ukronazi klutz, is like this - to spin the sirloin like a propeller, after I dunk you with the facts of your lies. How about you, Stalinist liar, who bleated about Rokossovsky’s “quote” and fell asleep when his real words were brought up.
                        Yes, quickly real words of Rokossovsky and other generals - the winners of your German masters, exposed your lying rotten insides - keep going, you windbag Stalinist liar, you’ll soon die)))
                      38. 0
                        February 16 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        so that's where you're from

                        laughing We know from Donetsk.
                        The eco young man was spinning laughing Did your genitals get pinched? No, Lvov won’t make such a young man, he won’t turn out that well yet. You already said everything I needed.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Rokossovsky

                        You’d better sing about your love for Nikola-2 and Kornilov, who arrested him. Flow around in silence, and you will only be turning your finger in your own dupe.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        you'll die soon

                        Don't choke on karma. I will come for you again, with SMERSH.
                      39. 0
                        February 16 2024
                        We know from Donetsk

                        Are you lying again as usual, Stalinist liar?
                        You already said everything I needed.

                        no no no, I haven’t even started to give you any acceleration yet, how from you ““historian - oilman - military man - economist” and all at the same time” - lies started)))
                        It will be more fun from now on, I like to pull off lying German tricks, so be patient, this is your destiny in life
                        Rokossovsky

                        what, The link to your “quote” was never found, you petty Stalinist swindler. Have you been caught again for your long lying tongue? Just like with your lies about Bismack, who lived during WWII)) ) But what about your famous “special archives of the KGB”, where you were supposed to look for rubbish?
                        come on, show me what else did you make up from Rokossovsky’s “manuscripts” that no one but you saw?)))
                        I will come for you again, with SMERSH.

                        Stalin's liar, Don’t forget to put on your underpants, otherwise you won’t be allowed out of the German brothel where you work as an honorary worker. you are your German masters))
                      40. 0
                        February 16 2024
                        Arkasha, don’t break your finger from zeal. laughing
                        Cranking. lol
                        Remember more often about the fate of Kornilov and Trotsky.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        We know from Donetsk

                        again you habitually lie

                        Check it out. Just put on diapers, they're shooting here.
                        And in SMERSH DPR I was the chief of staff, although not for long.
                        Do you know what Donetsk was called before Khrushchev?
                        Stalino. And the region was Stalin's. On our medals for Debaltsevo, the profile of I.V. Stalin is minted. Here you will repeat your vomit again.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        you'll die soon

                        I'll blow my nose at your funeral.
                      41. -1
                        February 16 2024
                        Why should I break your fingers? they will still come in handy for you, Stalinist liar, when you pick out German sperm from all your orifices as usual, “historian - oilman - military man - economist and all at the same time”
                        )))
                        but about I myself told you the fate of the Leninist guards and Stalinist accomplices, o5 your lying “memory” has failed you - everyone turned out to be traitors and destroyed, just like you, the product of German eggs and Ukronazi antisocial women.

                        and your destiny - the same as the names in honor of the mustachioed, narrow-minded Yoska - has been erased from the map of Russia
                        And this is a FACT! which your stupid lies cannot cancel.

                        go invent your next nonsense about the “words of Rokossovsky” or the living Bismarck in your memory during WWII))),
                        flawed, petty Stalinist liar
                      42. 0
                        February 16 2024
                        Don't burst from the strain, you flawed last child of thieves and traitors. The entire environment of Nika-2 betrayed him and fled (except for the doctor), during the entire time he was in custody there was not a single attempt to release him. The leadership of the white movement did not want to hear about him, his cousin (the king of England) abandoned him. And all your Kornilovs, Kolchaks, Denikins and Wrangels fought with money and supplies from the Entente, promising to pay off with Russian lands and distribute all of Russia in concessions.
                        And they lost. They fled. Someone else also served Hitler (like Krasnov).
                        And as for picking out sperm, it looks like you have a lot of experience, because you can’t do without it. Right ? Pleasing British gentlemen?
                        Right .
                        And my ancestors fought both wars with the Germans.
                        And in this, with their last children, I was no longer idle. And I’ve been listed on “Peacemaker” since January 2015. Once your hand heals, I’d tear off your ears... although no... they’re in your sperm, I won’t dirty my hand.
                      43. -1
                        February 16 2024
                        how the Stalinist liar was torn))
                        don’t shit yourself from stress and fear, like your boiler master with the only attempt go towards the front))
                        we read Lenin's and Stalin's comrades-in-arms
                        Stalin himself was not a very brave man. After all, this is an impossible task: the Supreme Commander-in-Chief has never gone to the front!
                        However, I went once. ... Knowing that it looks indecent, one day, when the Germans had already retreated from Moscow, drove in a car, an armored Packard, along the Minsk Highway, since it was used by our troops and there were no mines there anymore. ...However, I did not reach the front, maybe about fifty or seventy kilometers. .... He turned out to be such a coward that disgraced himself in front of the generals, officers and guard soldiers. I wanted it out of great need (maybe also out of fear? - I don’t know)... Then the Supreme Commander-in-Chief in front of everyone, he lowered his trousers and did his job right on the asphalt. At this point, the “acquaintance with the front” was completed and he went back to Moscow

                        Here so descendant of a crap "genius" - pull down your pants, you o5 shit yourself, following the example of your sra.ka.ka.lin))
                        And now you can pick out the sperm that I heartily fed you as usual, but you liked it - come for more. dunking the Stalinists in their stupidity and lies is my hobby)
                      44. 0
                        February 17 2024
                        You don't even have shit, you just have pus in your head. And the sperm is still in your mouth, don’t choke. People don't live long with this diagnosis.
                        And this is my hobby of turning people like you inside out.
                        But you have complete rot there.
                      45. 0
                        February 18 2024
                        The Stalinist liar was torn apart - all the Soviet crap came out of him))
                        What else is left for you when your lies have been shoved into all your cracks, along with the pants soiled by his sniveling “genius”.
                        Nothing, below are more facts like his mustache Russophobic “defender of Hitlerism” (see quote from Molotov’s lip slap above) destroyed Russian speakers in Ukraine

                        The last commander of the UPA, Vasil Kuk, is Bandera’s right hand , the Russian Soviets warmed him up and then he lived long and happily in Ukraine, doing scientific work at the Central State Historical Archive and the Institute of History of the Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR.
                        researcher at the Central State Historical Archive and the Institute of History of the Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR, author of works on Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism and the national question.
                        Stalin's liar - "economist - oil worker - military man - historian", you worked together with this Ukronazi scum in the "special archives" of the KGB - they ate Stalinist crap nearby. Well, now choke on my sperm - so I’ll dip you in Stalin’s gua. But I’ll dunk you in all the holes until you die from your Russophobic anger. Because You cannot refute ANY FACT OF MY, you flawed Stalinist liar - so eat with all your mouth twisted with hatred. And as soon as you swallow, I’ll throw in some facts about Russophobia for you and your “genius”
                      46. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Trotsky (agent of American banking houses)

                        and who was praised by both Lenin and Stalin, ha-ha - you have a homework assignment - find these quotes, read and write on your forehead for memory, but you, I’m sure, will fail, like everything the Stalinists do
                      47. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        And they lost two wars with the passion-bearer Nicholas.

                        you have a homework assignment - read about the Brest Peace Treaty and who signed it, and who appointed the signatory)))

                        after that, wash yourself quietly and don’t write any more nonsense, here are people who know history, and not descendants of 4th graders from the central school
                      48. -1
                        February 11 2024
                        I think it’s clear why the focus is on the Ground Forces - the Fleet is lost, but it will take a long time to build a new one, and we still need to decide how and in what form.
                        Land Army \ Industrialization \ Armed Neutrality \ Concentration on internal development. And allowing England and France to fight the Germans even until the end of the conspiracy.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Therefore, joining the strongest side (entente) was correct.

                        It was these allies from the strong side who staged the February Revolution for us, and then the rampant Civil War after the October Revolution (revolution - revolt (lat.) - coup). Are you seriously advocating for them?
                        Quote: N.M.
                        After the overthrow of the monarchy, the Count was interrogated by the Extraordinary Commission of Inquiry; no charges were brought against him.

                        Well, yes, this is when “Our people agreed with yours and decided everything” (from a conversation between pro-English and pro-German conspirators/revolutionaries at the time of Oktyabrsky’s coup). As far as I understand, you maintain a pro-English position?
                        Quote: N.M.
                        the unfortunate Baltic barons suffered; many of them were sent to Siberia for no reason, by order of Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich, while their sons and brothers fought in the Russian Army. In difficult times, the Emperor could rather rely on them than on the Russian nobility,

                        And why was it necessary to create such a situation?? Almost hopeless in case of an alliance with England?
                        Moreover, France’s entry into an alliance with England (the creation of the Entente) could be used as a reason for nullifying the Russian-French defense treaty. And France would be to blame.
                        We are neighbors with Germany and Austria-Hungary, this is Geography. The key to our security must be a powerful Land Army. And no one would think of interfering with us.
                        England needed a war with Germany. France agreed. So let them be heroes. In our ruling class there were tons of Germans. The Tsar is German, the Tsarina is German, German business is scattered throughout the country worse than it is now. . In such conditions, go for confrontation and even war?? belay Were Nika’s advisors out of their minds?? Or was he dragged there (to the Entente) by blackmail? Blackmail of the Revolution controlled from London?
                        Most likely this was exactly the case. But again - WHO is to blame for all this? And again about the cost of sloppiness in front of the REV and the consequences of losing.
                        Since they screwed over the Anglo-Saxons (customers and sponsors of the RYAV), then there was no point in making enemies of the Germans after that. Nika’s entire reign was a continuous series of mistakes on the outer contour. In absolutely all key areas.
                        It was not Witte who needed to listen, but Sharapov, who tried to save him, created the Union of the Russian People (and headed it), and offered optimal and balanced decisions. He proposed concentrating on internal development with external Armed Sovereignty.
                        An unreasonable sovereign in an era of change is a death sentence for the state.
                      49. +1
                        February 11 2024
                        And allowing England and France to fight the Germans even until the end of the conspiracy.

                        Historical facts
                        1) the Franco-Prussian war 40 years before 14 - the Germans defeated it in a few months
                        2) 40 year - in a few weeks, including and English housing. And then, having captured Europe, it “rushed” towards Russia.
                        So there would be no “conspiracy”, this is exactly what Denikin, a career military commander, and not an idle talker and a layman in the military sphere in the military sphere (maybe a good economist) Sharapov, described wonderfully.
                        These allies from the strong side staged the February Revolution for us, and then the rampant Civil War after the October Revolution

                        Ludendorff* in his memoirs:
                        " Our government, sending Lenin to Russia, took on a huge responsibility! This journey was justified from a military point of view: it was necessary for Russia to fall. But our government had to take measures to prevent this from happening to Germany."
                        * During the First World War 1914-1918. Ludendorff actually led military operations on the Eastern Front (1914-1916), and in 1916-1918 - all the armed forces of Germany
                        Max Hoffmann (German general - the Kaiser’s representative at the conclusion of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty, one of the highest military officers in Germany):
                        "It is quite natural that We tried through propaganda to strengthen the disintegration brought about by the revolution in the Russian troops.
                        In our homeland we had a man maintained contacts with emigrants living in Switzerland; he came up with the idea of ​​involving some of them in this matter, in order to poison and undermine the morale of the Russian troops even more quickly. He turned to Deputy Erzberger, and Erzberger - to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Thus, it came to the later famous transportation of Lenin to St. Petersburg through Germany. ...».
                        etc
                        The top German military of that time clearly knew more than all these Soviet liars trying to hide their betrayal of the Motherland. So once again, do not repeat Soviet nonsense, as in the example earlier with Fredericks.
                        Moreover, France’s entry into an alliance with England (the creation of the Entente) could be used as a reason to nullify the Russian-French defense treaty

                        and to remain alone against the “friends” of the Holy Alliance, who had betrayed us several times during the wars in the previous half century. excellent plan, reliable as a Swiss watch
                        German business is scattered across the country worse than now

                        there was no French business? do the French know about this? )))
                        Blackmail of the Revolution controlled from London?

                        Sorry, I'm not interested in conspiracy theories. And I have already given the facts why the Republic of Ingushetia could not sit aside from the world war several times. including at the highest military institutes. Everything else is baseless fiction
                        Nika’s entire reign was a continuous series of mistakes on the outer contour

                        Well, yes, that’s why the Shah of Iran appointed a Cossack colonel as dictator of the capital. such a loss, such a loss))) true for the British who also laid claim to Iran.
                        Sharapova... . He proposed to concentrate on internal development with external Armed Sovereignty
                        You can concentrate on anything, but when they declare war on you, it would be better to have those who will also declare war on your enemy like France and England, and not such “friends” as Austria and Germany, whose opps we saved in 19 from Napoleon and the Hungarian revolution and who thanked us in such a German way. And you propose to bet on such sh@l?
                      50. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Historical facts

                        So what ? At that time no one considered the French as a worthy rival to Germany.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Having captured Europe, it “rushed” towards Russia.

                        The name of your (?) state should be written with a capital letter. Is this really a mistake or a position?

                        Quote: N.M.
                        there would be no “conspiracy”, this is what Denikin, a career military commander, wonderfully described

                        No less than career generals and officers of the Russian Army stood under the banner of the Red Army, won the Civil War, threw out the interventionists and then created the Army that broke the back of fascism.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        "Our government, having sent Lenin to Russia

                        So what ? This is a known fact.
                        And the United States sent two ships to Russia with “professional revolutionaries”, with money and weapons.
                        But Stalin and his comrades were then in Russia, Stalin was completely in exile in Siberia.
                        And he later got rid of these exiles.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        The top German military of the time clearly knew more

                        And we knew about it. There was no secret here.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        do not repeat Soviet nonsense, as in the example earlier with Fredericks.

                        Don't tell me what to know. I know about this from archival documents. From the KGB Special Archive, these materials were published by several trusted historians, journalists and researchers. I, too, should have been among them, but due to a number of life circumstances I could not do this. Therefore, I got acquainted with them in copies later. And I had to work with the originals.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Sorry, I'm not interested in conspiracy theories.

                        Are you also paranoid?
                        All History consists of conspiracies. lol
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Therefore, the Shah of Iran appointed a Cossack colonel as dictator of the capital.

                        What did you get from this colonel in Persia?
                        How has RI succeeded in this area? Did you build a canal?
                        But Stalin received Roosevelt and Churchill in Tehran in 1943. Our troops were stationed there.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        You can concentrate on anything, but when they declare war on you, it would be better to have those who will also declare war on your enemy

                        So Stalin concentrated the USSR on resolving internal issues under Armed Neutrality. By relying on Industrialization, full state and financial sovereignty in self-reliance. And he succeeded in everything.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        it would be better to have those who will also declare war on your enemy like France and England,

                        These are POSSIBLE with a small one.
                        And they, of course, became allies of Stalin, albeit unwillingly - Hitler was too terrible for them.
                        So we saved them from Hitler then (not from Napoleon once there), but they betrayed us, they created NATO, they raised you, they are now fighting with Russia in Ukraine... Don’t you want to curse the damned?

                        Quote: N.M.
                        And you propose to bet on such sh@l?

                        laughing Nope. I suggested placing a bet on ARMED Neutrality and ARMED Sovereignty.
                        And let the Angles tear up the Saxons, and the Franks the Bavarians.
                        And there is no need to be afraid that the Teutons will rush at us first. This will never happen . For in Europe there are many small and weak states, which they will attack first, so that later they can gather everyone together to attack us. But by that time the Angles, Yankees and the remnants of the Franks THEMSELVES will offer us an alliance against the Deutsche. This happened in WWII. There were no unions before or after.
                      51. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        The name of your (?) state must be written with a capital letter

                        in general, since you are impatient about literacy, then you screwed yourself
                        the name of ANY state is written with capital letters.
                        but you have the typical position of a klutz who has screwed up the facts - to get to the bottom of the typo. You probably haven’t noticed that I often don’t press shift and write proper names with a small letter.

                        and now to the facts - this is how Bismarck lived to see
                        PMV. or is this your usual nonsense?
                      52. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        But Stalin and his comrades were then in Russia, Stalin was completely in exile in Siberia.
                        And he later got rid of these exiles

                        So it was Stalin who got rid of Lenin?
                        Yes, you're aiming for a Nobel Prize))
                        this will be cooler than the Bismarck that “survived” until WWI)))

                        burn again, economist - oil worker - military man - historian))
                      53. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        And there is no need to be afraid that the Teutons will rush at us first

                        drink memoria and read history - who was Germany first to declare war on - Russia or France?)))
                      54. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Hitler was too scary for them.

                        So it was England or Stalin who asked for a second front a dozen times a year?)))
                        you make discovery after discovery, I beg you - burn, don’t stop, don’t let me die of boredom)))
                      55. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Are you also paranoid?
                        All History consists of conspiracies

                        exclusively yours, since it was you who blurted out about the head of the German Residentura - Count Friedirex

                        I had to dunk you into something that the TsPS didn’t tell you - about the commission and the investigation, after that you stopped raving. not for long though))
                      56. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        So Stalin concentrated the USSR on resolving internal issues under Armed Neutrality. Relying on Industrialization, full state and financial sovereignty in self-reliance


                        I have a task for you - in how many Soviet states did they try to organize a putsch and where they were put in the lotus position.
                        Maybe at least something about “neutrality” will reach you, but it’s unlikely. not horse feed
                      57. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        From the KGB Special Archive, these materials were published by several trusted historians, journalists and researchers. I, too, should have been among them, but due to a number of life circumstances I could not do this


                        you’ll decide whether you’re saving the oil industry or studying history from the archives)))
                        but for now you look like a lot of whistling Lenin))
                      58. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Stop being hysterical, otherwise you will have a stroke at such a young age.
                      59. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        I can’t stop laughing until you stop raving about Bismarck surviving until WWI.

                        Although!!! I'm sure you were told about this in the special archives of the KGB))))

                        well, really? Truth?
                      60. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        And we knew about it. There was no secret here

                        that is, you, after I poked your nose at you, confirmed that it was Lenin and his guards, including Stalin, who were traitors to the motherland and German agents

                        chtd.
                        I killed you quickly, but how did you sing about the Unified State Exam, but you didn’t even know that))
                      61. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        The conspirators of February had already betrayed their homeland; it was they who overthrew Nikola Vash.
                        Lenin decided to use the corridor provided, but did not take money from Parvus. And then he sent him when he was begging for a post in the leadership.
                        But the Germans' money worked in Petrograd - through Parvus and his agents.
                        Lenin is not an angel, but he is definitely not a spy. But there was enough guano around him. Stalin eventually got rid of them when they again took up anti-state activities.
                        And Lenin died himself. He was suffering from the effects of his wound, he asked for poison, but they didn’t give it to him.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        I finished you off quickly, but how were you singing about the Unified State Exam, but you didn’t even know that?

                        Are you really that stupid and stubborn, or are you playing with trolling? So I have unraveled more than one of these, worse than you.
                        You screwed up almost everything in terms of facts, and to the very top morally.
                      62. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        grandfather, memorial!!! don't forget to drink
                        Then you will understand that normal people have nothing to discuss with Stalin’s liars.
                        go to the “special archives” of the KGB, there they will show you Bismarck on the WWII fronts.

                        Don’t make me laugh today, I’m tired of laughing at your “knowledge”
                      63. -1
                        February 13 2024
                        You screwed up almost everything in terms of facts, and to the very top morally

                        It’s strange, you write about Bismarck, who lived until WWI, but someone else “shit himself”))
                        You should at least become familiar with the facts, otherwise there is empty talk and boasting about “salvation”, “voting”, “special archives”, etc., but there is no knowledge, even basic knowledge.
                        .So there is only one thing you can unwind - the straitjacket, but that is when the orderlies allow it.
                        In the meantime, only I have poked your nose into your lies here 5 times already, and other people have tried too. This is when you plaintively excused yourself by citing insomnia))
                      64. 0
                        February 13 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        It’s strange, you write about Bismarck, who lived until WWI

                        Re-read what I wrote, there is the word “seemingly” before the phrase - the associative memory worked, I didn’t click the mouse to check the year of death. The associative memory was that under the young Wilhelm they stopped listening to Bismarck, and it was then that conversations began at the German court about a possible war with Russia.
                        But your heresy about a saved “Germany”, which did not exist then, from Napoleon, and repeated so many times, you of course “didn’t notice.”
                        There is a good Russian proverb - “Do not look for friends far, but enemies close.” Moreover, these distant “friends” are your age-old and sworn enemies. There was simply no need to quarrel with the Germans, and to be friends with the British. And then they would have sought friendship with us at a difficult historical moment for themselves.
                        The problem is that, considering that I was communicating with an adult, I entered the conversation as a green and ill-mannered youth.
                        On the eve of the October Revolution (they themselves called their revolution a coup for a couple of years), Lenin called Trotsky a “political prostitute” - this is a textbook and well-known quote. But Trotsky was close to Sverdlov, and through Sverdlov there was financing from the American banker J. Schiff (Baruch’s confidant), under whom his (Sverdlov’s) younger brother was then in the USA. Trotsky from the USA also came from Schiff, through England, where he was arrested as a spy, but under the patronage of his “American comrades” he was released. You can listen to the lectures of the former Yale professor, Fursov, about this; he gave these lectures there before.
                        There is no need to answer.
                      65. -1
                        February 13 2024
                        No need to answer

                        It's not up to you to decide, be patient))
                        associative memory triggered

                        that’s all your “knowledge” is the same - somewhere you’ve heard enough of something and rush around with what you heard like a sack, you don’t have enough brains to check
                        about the saved “Germany”, which did not exist then, from Napoleon, and repeated so many times, you of course “didn’t notice”

                        There was no united Germany, but German states existed - several dozen. Should I have listed them all? How is your head - does it hurt? In particular, the largest one is Prussia, which was precisely what saved the Republic of Ingushetia from subordination to Napoleon. And which united these states just after it defeated France, which had no ally, into “one snout” - a second front in the form of the Republic of Ingushetia. That is, it turned out exactly what I wrote to you several times, and that you, in your deceitful ideas, several times “advised” RI - brilliantly, simply brilliantly, in Stalin’s style, oh.
                        "Do not look for friends far, but for enemies close"
                        There is a proverb that is no worse. “Make God pray, he will bruise your forehead” - this is exactly about your ideas for the Republic of Ingushetia to fight alone. Your “genius” Stalin clearly showed the result in 41, but you were unable to comprehend it.
                        Trotsky's Lenin on the eve of the October Revolution
                        I have already suggested that you find quotes from Lenin and Stalin, where they emphasize his outstanding role in the VOR. But You, as always, failed. They fell into your usual - a retelling somewhere of something once heard, instead of documents. Nothing new
                        The problem is that, considering that I was communicating with an adult, I entered the conversation as a green and ill-mannered youth.
                        your problem is in the idefix, having driven one thing into your head, you are no longer able to rethink it. And then you start being rude to strangers. NOT knowing my age, you babble about the Unified State Exam, which I could not take, because in the USSR, where I received my first passport, there was no one. And having received the same treatment in response, you begin to cry.
                        So don’t be rude in future - you won’t be rude.

                        ps By the way, age doesn’t mean anything. This is not an argument if you are not aware. Only in fairy tales does old age come with wisdom; it came to you alone.
                      66. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Historian - oilman - military - economist,
                        have you now decided to defeat me with a formidable weapon?
                        and started silently minus?

                        WOW!!! I'm so scared, sorry, don't downvote!! I won't survive this))))

                        ps what pathetic and funny Stalinists are.
                        Having lost their basic knowledge of their beloved masters, the Germans, they are trying to somehow “revenge”

                        kindergarten, pants with straps))
                      67. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        Historian - oilman - military - economist,

                        Without an oil worker, the oil industry had a bare economy.
                      68. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        grandfather, memorial!!! don't forget to drink
                        Then you will understand that normal people have nothing to discuss with Stalin’s liars.
                        go to the “special archives” of the KGB, there they will show you Bismarck on the WWII fronts.

                        Don’t make me laugh today, I’m tired of laughing at your “knowledge”
                      69. -1
                        February 11 2024
                        Quote: N.M.
                        and give Germany the much-needed war on ONE front. Just like the narrow-minded communists in 1939.

                        In 1939, the USSR had the British and French empires against it. And the goal was to prevent them from colluding with Hitler. The division of Poland, the return of the Baltic states and Bessarabia to its composition, these are borders pushed to the west. Hitler's attack on France and England - preventing their alliance against the USSR. As a result, the Polish army and Hitler did not act against us (they were fed to Hitler), and England, after the defeat of France and the start of air strikes on its territory, became much more negotiable.
                        And you call this Stalin’s “narrow-mindedness”?
                        Yes, he saved himself from half of his opponents in one fell swoop. Moreover, he turned them into his allies in the fight against Hitler. So don't equate a genius with a madman.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        If you don't believe me, read Denikin

                        I read it a long time ago and wasn't particularly impressed. But there is a book in my library. True, the library is now out of access.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        he also considered this scenario and simply defeated its adherents with numbers.

                        Different numbers are needed, different numbers are important. It was necessary to develop our own economy (Industrialization, which Nikolai delayed).
                        Do you think that having dealt with France, Wilhelm would have rushed at us?
                        What about England? Are you sure that she would have come to terms with such a strong strengthening of Germany? And don’t forget about the United States, which could easily get involved in the war seriously earlier. Wilhelm certainly did not need another front in such a mess. He would be very courteous with us, offer an alliance... And we could have only one interest in all this - the Black Sea Straits. Willie could not agree to this (he had an alliance with Turkey) and our neutrality would remain in force. England also had nothing to buy us with except the offer of the Straits. And we would not rush to answer. While the warring parties would be ruined by the war and lose strength, we would become richer and increase our military strength and military supplies. At the same time, the United States would already be in the war and would also suffer losses and huge expenses. And we would have mobilized the Army without any rush, built the Fleet and simply WAITED. In a state of Armed Neutrality. And just before the final, they would have taken the straits and “joined the exhausted winner.” And/or would become mediators in peace negotiations.
                        But in order to take such a tough and independent position, it was necessary to defeat the then already superior Japanese army in Manchuria before Portsmouth, transfer the war to Korea and Liaodong, and not send Rozhestvensky’s squadron to Tsushima, but leave it in Cam Ranh as a potential threat for the naval blockade communications Then Japan would have been more accommodating in the negotiations, the shame of Tsushima would not have happened. The 1st Revolution could have been suppressed against the backdrop of our victories in Manchuria.
                        But with Nicholas 2 on the throne, this was impossible in principle, because he did not listen to the voice of Reason. He simply did not understand him.
                        Quote: N.M.
                        read Denikin, one of the best military leaders of the time

                        In this regard, Brusilov is closer to me.
                      70. -1
                        February 11 2024
                        In 1939, the USSR had the British and French empires against it

                        if they promise to hang you on the same rope that you sell (do you know whose words?), then only a complete communist can be surprised at the result.

                        Partition of Poland, return to the Baltic states and Bessarabia

                        who turned half the world against us, look how many countries the Finns had volunteers from - brilliant, simply brilliant.
                        Hitler's attack on France and England - preventing their alliance against the USSR

                        So it was Stalin who advised Hitler to attack? Do the Angles and Franks know?
                        you will now agree that we will be classified as Nazis -

                        England, after the defeat of France and the start of air strikes on its territory, became much more negotiable

                        In general, it was the USSR that bleated for help and England began to help - the ambition of the Soviets sharply decreased in 41. And he begged for help for 3 years, until the second front was opened
                        .
                        And you call this Stalin’s “narrow-mindedness”? Yes, he saved himself from half of his opponents in one fell swoop. Moreover, he turned them into his allies in the fight against Hitler.

                        no, this is wild foresight - to organize a war, lose 5 times more people than the enemy and get kicked in the ass from the League of Nations before the approaching war and end up in isolation - brilliant, simply brilliant!!
                        Genius

                        screwed up in all endeavors:
                        slept through the attack after licking with the Germans - just as you advised, together with Sharapov.
                        lose a regular army in cauldrons in the first months of the war
                        suffer losses many times greater than the enemy
                        run to Moscow and the Volga - giving multiple times more than the army of the Republic of Ingushetia -
                        exactly genius, for those who want the death of Russia
                        In this regard, Brusilov is closer to me.
                        Is this immoral thing neither fish nor fowl, which was silent throughout the entire Civil War and after the victory went to serve the winner?
                        Well, you have tastes.
                        It was necessary to develop our own economy (Industrialization, which Nikolai delayed).

                        Are you sure you're an economist? Even if you read Lenin, you won’t suspect him of loving the Tsar, but!
                        "Russia plow and flail, water mill and handloom began to quickly turn to Russia a plow and a threshing machine, a steam mill and a steam loom. There is not a single branch of the national economy subordinated to capitalist production in which an equally complete transformation of technology has not been observed. "
                        Lenin. Development of capitalism in Russia. PSS, vol. 3, p. 597-598
                        There, on 700 pages, Lenin proves that Russia had the highest rates of production development in the world and the largest concentration of production (the number of large enterprises - 1000 employees and above).
                        But with Nicholas 2 on the throne, this was impossible in principle, because he did not listen to the voice of Reason. He simply did not understand him.

                        That is why the Republic of Ingushetia developed faster than other powers. Logical, yeah
                        Sorry, but I’m not interested in discussing fantasies outside of historical facts, and even with conspiracy theories. That's what Aunt Tatra is for
                      71. +1
                        February 12 2024
                        Quote: bayard
                        In fact, the “Russian tsars” did not have a single drop of Russian blood - they were the same Germans, with an admixture of Danish and English blood.

                        The British dynasty does not have a drop of English blood. Does it change anything?
                      72. -1
                        February 12 2024
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        Does it change anything?

                        No . It simply testifies that they are not representatives of the people under their control. That is, sovereigns are not natural.
                    2. +1
                      February 12 2024
                      Quote: N.M.
                      The Germans, who were late to the main division of the world into colonies, were extremely offended by this. Since the mid-19th century, their thinkers have constantly talked about “living space.”

                      They didn’t just talk about it, they found it. And very close - it was:
                      the East directly bordering on the German Fatherland. Destiny leads us there. The compass of the Germans points to the East
                      1. 0
                        February 13 2024
                        Exactly. But alternativeists do not value knowing the facts. If there is an idefix about super-duper friendly Germany and Austria, then they quickly forget about the contradictions between the Republic of Ingushetia and Austria in the Balkans, as well as the German ultimatum and declaration of war on the Republic of Ingushetia.
        2. -1
          February 9 2024
          And by the way, the battleships of the Borodino Ave. were built in a really large series and according to one project. They were built without any special differences and relatively quickly. But the project was chosen extremely poorly and we lost everything except “Slava”.
          Yes, and three battleships of the "Sevastopol" type were built according to the same project, but... a project with auxiliary artillery in 4 towers was also chosen, which is why they took a long time to build. But they turned out to be very strong.
          1. +1
            February 9 2024
            Quote: bayard
            And three Sevastopol-class battleships were built according to the same design

            And at the end we got three ships, differing even in their armor. laughing
            For “Sevastopol” and “Petropavlovsk”, part of the steel-nickel armor (550 and 605 tons) was ordered from the American plant “Bethlehem Iron Co.” For the middle part of the armor belt on “Sevastopol” they used Harvey’s armor, and on “Poltava” Krupp armor. The exorbitantly thick armor of the main belt (406-mm steel-nickel plates on Petropavlovsk and 368-mm Krupp plates on Poltava) left the ends and 4 of the 12 152-mm guns unprotected.

            “Peresvetychi” only continued and deepened the tradition.
            1. -1
              February 9 2024
              Quote: Alexey RA
              For “Sevastopol” and “Petropavlovsk”, part of the steel-nickel armor (550 and 605 tons) was ordered from the American plant “Bethlehem Iron С°”. For the middle part of the armor belt on “Sevastopol” they used Harvey’s armor, and on “Poltava” Krupp armor.

              “I sculpted you from what was” ... now India builds ships like this. lol
              Still, "Borodino" was built from its own, albeit licensed one.
              But it would be better if they were built according to the design of “Prince Potemkin”, then they would have been in time for the war, and the outcome could have happened differently. . . We definitely didn’t know how to join a normal Navy back then. hi
        3. +2
          February 10 2024
          Quote: Alexey RA
          And the main question is who chose Port Arthur for the fleet in the first place? Which none of the admirals who visited the Far East considered it a base for the fleet.

          There are two points.
          1) Almost all admirals offered ports in Korea, and this is a war without options.
          It was still possible to negotiate for Port Arthur. Like Manchuria for us, Korea for you...
          2) To what other port could we build a railway?
    3. +1
      February 9 2024
      expedition of the Russian squadron from the Baltic to the Far East, which Rozhdestvensky also led there

      Christmas
    4. +1
      February 9 2024
      expedition of the Russian squadron from the Baltic to the Far East, which Rozhdestvensky also led there

      Christmas
    5. +3
      February 9 2024
      Why was Stessel executed or imprisoned? After the Japanese captured the heights and shot the fleet there, firstly: it was virtually impossible to defend themselves, the troops retreated directly to the city. Yes, we could, of course, resist for a couple more weeks, but this would only significantly increase the losses of our troops. Japanese artillery would have simply shot them. Secondly, Port Arthur was primarily needed as a naval base. But the fleet was already sunk. Well, they would have fought some more, then there would have been an assault and the Japanese would have killed everyone: both Russian and Chinese civilians. And so Stessel retained the remnants of the garrison. There is no need to draw conclusions based on Stepanov’s book.
      1. +1
        February 9 2024
        I read somewhere that the Japanese were no longer going to storm PA, they wanted to go on the defensive, leave one division, and throw the rest of the army to the north. There is no fleet, the task is completed. Those remaining in the garrison would have surrendered on their own in a month or two.
    6. +3
      February 9 2024
      No Rozhdestvensky led anyone anywhere.
      not along the Korea Strait, but along the Tsushima Strait, that is, closer to the Japanese coast and even further in distance to Port Arthur, where the Japanese fleet was waiting for her.

      Something's wrong, sir. The squadron went through the Korean Strait anyway, and then went to the Eastern or Tsushima Strait.
      The Korea Strait is a strait between the Korean Peninsula and the Japanese islands of Iki, Kyushu and the southwestern tip of Honshu. Connects the East China and Sea of ​​Japan. The Tsushima Islands divide the Korea Strait into two passages: the East Passage in the southeast and the West Passage in the northwest.
  6. +8
    February 9 2024
    Well, yes, we won, but we were betrayed, as usual. So we are invincible...
  7. -2
    February 9 2024
    Thanks to the author. High quality article. I would like to hear his opinion about Mukden and Tsushima.
  8. +4
    February 9 2024
    Quote: S.Z.
    Well, yes, we won, but we were betrayed, as usual. So we are invincible...

    Treason, Malyuta, betrayal all around!!!
    ))))
  9. +4
    February 9 2024
    Already during the war, Japan ordered 400 75-mm Krupp field guns. The Germans also supplied 2 thousand blanks for such guns. Of these, 300 guns were made in the arsenal of the city of Osaka. This gun was later modernized, and it was named the Arisaka system of the 1905 model (type 38).

    The author demonstrates ignorance that is surprising even for current website authors.
    Arisaka system model 1905 (type 38)
    - This is a Japanese rifle. And the 75 mm Krupp gun was called 75 mm Type 38 field gun. General Arisaka has nothing to do with its design. This gun was not used in the Russo-Japanese War.
    During the Russo-Japanese War, the Japanese used the Type 75 31mm field gun, which was developed under the direction of then Colonel Arisaka in 1898.
    Ironically, the Japanese sold about a hundred of these guns to Russia in 1916. Almost half of them after the end of the Civil War went to Finland, which, in turn, sold them to Spain in 1937.
    1. +2
      February 9 2024
      During the war, the Japanese also ordered several dozen 12-cm and 15-cm (120-mm and 150-mm) Krupp howitzers from the Germans.

      None of these howitzers took part in the hostilities; they simply did not have time.
      32 12cm Feldhaubitze L/11,6 1892 (first photo) and 18 15cm schweres Feldhaubitze M1893 (second photo), purchased by Japan in 1898 - 1900, took part in the fighting.
  10. +4
    February 9 2024
    The core of the army was the officers, who inherited the traditions of the samurai. The officers were the stronghold of the Japanese Empire, the bearer of the idea of ​​“Great Japan” and the exclusivity of the Japanese people.

    The author demonstrates complete ignorance of both Japan in general and its history in particular.
    During the Meiji era (1868-1912), the national idea of ​​Japan was Fukoku kyohei - “enrich the country, strengthen the army.”
  11. +5
    February 9 2024
    “It wasn’t the army that lost the war, it was the politicians that lost it.”

    Mukden, Port Arthur, the Yellow Sea, Tsushima - the crews and commanders, of course, consisted entirely of deputies and government members.
    1. +1
      February 9 2024
      It is unknown how events would have turned out in the Yellow Sea if Vitgeft had not died.
      1. -1
        February 9 2024
        Quote: fiberboard
        It is unknown how events would have turned out in the Yellow Sea if Vitgeft had not died.


        I agree, the fight was even. However, as I was recently convinced, it is unlikely that our large forces would reach Vladivostok.
        1. +2
          February 9 2024
          Why? Even so, as a last resort, you could go to neutral ports and be interned (like the Tsarevich).
        2. +4
          February 9 2024
          I agree, the fight was even.

          37-38 hits on Japanese ships and more than 140 hits on Russians. I agree, it couldn’t be more equal.
          1. +1
            February 12 2024
            “37-38 hits on Japanese ships and more than 140 hits on Russians. I agree, it couldn’t be more equal.”

            Your figures are very controversial; there is evidence that the Japanese lost more. Moreover, everything was decided by one hit.
            1. +1
              February 12 2024
              Your figures are very controversial; there is evidence that the Japanese lost more. Moreover, everything was decided by one hit.

              Everything was decided not by one hit, but by those same 140 hits. In fact, except for Mikasa, we didn’t hit anyone normally, but we - the Tsarevich - had broken pipes and steering, Retvizan - a hole below the waterline, Peresvet - a big hole in the bow (it’s good that it was built normally, otherwise we would have drowned and Oslyabya), Sevastopol and Poltava are barely dragging their cars. How to break through? Who and where of them could have gone? The answer is either to neutral ports, or back to Arthur, or to the bottom.
            2. +1
              February 12 2024
              Provide your figures and their sources, respectively. I took mine (in order not to go far) from the articles of Andrei Kolobov (from Chelyabinsk). His sources are traceable.
              There, in any of the Russian battleships (except for Pobeda) they threw about as much as the Russians did in Mikasa, and in Peresvet even one and a half times more. All other Japanese ships (without Mikasa) get 1-3 hits, but Fuji comes out completely intact.
              Your “one hit” is like the “icing on the cake”. Summed up a logical conclusion.
  12. +3
    February 9 2024
    It is necessary to take into account such a very strong side of the Japanese army as universal literacy of the population. As Admiral Makarov noted, there has not been a single illiterate person in Japan for five centuries.

    Among the aristocratic elite - yes.
    And so - everything is standard. By the beginning of the 100th century: samurai families had 50% male literacy and 50% female literacy. Merchant class - 80-40%. Craft - 60-50%. Peasants - 60-30%, poor people 40-XNUMX%. For the last two categories, literacy criteria were the ability to at least somehow read written text and write one’s name.
    That is why one of the main goals of the Meiji era was universal education. According to the “Regulations on Education” of 1872, it was planned to open 8 universities, 256 secondary and 53760 primary schools. The reality turned out to be more modest (the budget failed), but was still impressive: after 7 years, about 5300 primary schools were opened, and by 1902 there were 2 universities, 222 secondary schools and about 27000 primary schools in Japan. The class structure of education was sacrificed to progress: by 1885, half of the students at Tokyo Imperial University were commoners (10 years earlier there had been only 25%). Moreover, university workers considered this ratio disproportionate, since samurai made up only 5% of the Japanese population.
    Source: Verisotskaya E.V. Society and educational reforms in Japan at the initial stage of modernization (1870-1880s)
    1. 0
      February 10 2024
      The reality turned out to be more modest (the budget failed)

      about this point (limited budget by income + reasonable issue and credit) are usually forgotten by all critics of the Russian government of that time.
      Everything is simple for them - he took money from the nightstand - took it from ... (substitute according to preferences) and planted gardens all over the country.
      ask yourself a simple question: “why doesn’t he just take money from his nightstand for all the things he wants?” they somehow forget
  13. +5
    February 9 2024
    And what, it was the politicians who fought in lost battles on land, and in completely devastating defeats at sea? No, problems were everywhere, at all levels. Which the First World War would later confirm.
  14. +5
    February 9 2024
    It was not the army that lost the war, it was the politicians who lost it.
    How did you not lose? And Mukden, and Tsushima, and the surrender of Port Arthur?
  15. +2
    February 9 2024
    Instead of a “small victorious war,” the Republic of Ingushetia grabbed Lyuli.
    True, current admirers of “alternative” history are trying to prove that the war was won grandiosely, and if not for this, if not for that, they would have been drinking sai in Tokyo.
    The apotheosis was Tsushima. FOUR squadron battleships Togo, with some assistance from Kamimura's detachment, smashed the Russian squadron to smithereens.
    1. +1
      February 10 2024
      In this war, 25 Russian soldiers and officers were killed. To this number we must also add the losses of the fleet, amounting to 331 people

      According to Russian official data, Japanese losses are determined at 47 killed. Other sources, including Japanese, give figures very close to this [387]. We should also add the losses of the Japanese fleet, amounting to 8 thousand people [2]. Thus, the Japanese lost 9 thousand killed, /49,4/ people."


      https://scepsis.net/library/id_2305.html

      Boris Tsesarevich Urlanis (August 28, 1906 - July 14, 1981) is an outstanding Russian scientist and demographer. Author of a number of fundamental works on demography and sociology, among which the largest is “Wars and Population of Europe” (1960)

      the losses of the Russian imperial army are almost exactly 2 times lower than the Japanese.

      for comparison with Soviet alternative artists, a small certificate
      Soviet-Finnish little "victorious" war
      Finns - 25 dead and missing
      USSR - 126 killed and died during the sanitary evacuation stages

      the real communists lost almost exactly 5 times more.
      the great boiler master Stalin, he is so... "brilliant"

      but the first is a terrible defeat, and the second is clearly an “outstanding” victory - be careful not to confuse it!!
      True, the Soviets, having embraced the lyulei, instantly forgot about “welcome us, Suomi beauty” and no longer remembered about the Red government of Kuusinen
  16. +7
    February 9 2024
    It was not the army that lost the war, it was the politicians who lost it.

    Another attempt to pull the owl of propaganda onto the globe of history. Moreover, it is inept and ignorant, like all the “creativity” of this author. Politicians and the tsar managed to “pump up” all previous achievements in terms of relations with Japan and dragged Russia into a completely unnecessary war, which could have been easily avoided with a competent foreign policy. The Japanese tried to do this to the last. But since Nicholas II was a more than worthless politician, he still got involved in the war, forgetting one of the wise thoughts of Confucius: “There is nothing more dangerous than resorting to force without preparation.” The army, which was not ready for war, lost the war.
    1. +6
      February 9 2024
      then he nevertheless got involved in the war, forgetting one of the wise thoughts of Confucius: “There is nothing more dangerous than resorting to force without preparation.” The army, which was not ready for war, lost the war.

      I would like to note on my own that history tends to repeat itself, both in the near future (World War I) and in our days...
  17. 0
    February 9 2024
    Author, what other natural sailors??? Read Karamzin, his voyage on the frigate Pallada. In 1864, the Japanese had wooden cannons and boats with cut sterns so that they would not sail far from the shore. Our frigate was almost a miracle of technology for them. And just 40 years later there was Tsushima.
    1. +7
      February 9 2024
      Read Karamzin, his voyage on the frigate Pallada.

      Have you decided to outdo the author in ignorance?
      Karamzin was physically unable to travel on the frigate Pallada; he died in 1826. And the frigate "Pallada" was laid down in 1831, five years later. Goncharov traveled on it.
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. 0
    February 9 2024
    No matter what they write about the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 - 1905. various authors, they all have a biased view of the past. Either badly patriotic (we were betrayed, otherwise we would have won), or “People's Will” (Tsarism is a regurgitation of the past, a rotten system cannot win, period).
    In fact, the Russian Empire was doomed to defeat in the struggle for the redivision of the world in the 1812th - early 1814th centuries after it was unable to properly manage the fruits of victory in the war of XNUMX - XNUMX.
    The main competitor - Great Britain (then really Great - 30% larger than Russia in area, four times in population) vigilantly saw the tendency for the Russian Empire to enter the world stage through free access to the oceans. I saw it and took action.
    The first significant defeat of the Russian Empire was the war of 1853-1855. Moreover, the real successes of Russia’s opponents were not so great, and in some places there were simply failures, but the mainstream pretended to be a “civilized European power” defeated common sense, and Russia had to live for 20 years play the role of a second-rate European monarchy.
    After the murder of the so-called The “Tsar-Liberator” (who, for the surrender of the Bering Strait through the sale of Alaska and the Aleutian Islands, would be more correctly called the “Tsar-Traitor” together with M.S. Gorbachev) finally had a nationally oriented ruler on the throne. He absolutely correctly began preparations for the big war in the Pacific, raised the country's economy, tried to put the administration of the Empire in order, but did not have time for the main events (or was not allowed to). And here History cruelly laughed at the anachronism of autocracy, giving it a worthless heir who placed the objective needs of the country below his own, sometimes fleeting, preferences.
    The Russian Empire prepared for war from the word “no way.” Neither the shipbuilding program, nor the choice of basing, nor communications corresponded in any way to the scale of the task. It was not difficult for Great Britain and its conditional ally the United States to carry out a successful proxy war at the hands of Japan, which, when viewed objectively, could only be considered a power conditionally. If the course of the war was unfavorable, the British were ready to deploy a significant part of their invincible fleet to finally resolve the confrontation at sea in their favor. And there would be no problems with financing the Japanese armed forces.
    So the Russian Empire was doomed to defeat in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 - 1905. due to the discrepancy between the available forces and the scale of the task. And the Tsar’s mediocrity, corruption and stupidity of the military leadership brought this defeat to defeat.
    1. +4
      February 9 2024
      Is this Alexander the traitor king? Funny. He carried out the most important and useful reforms, without them they would have sunk to the level of Turkey. And he would have continued if the stupid Narodnaya Volya had not killed him.

      And the sale of Alaska was inevitable, because in the event of any new conflict with Europe (which at that time looked very likely), it would have been taken away free of charge (during the intervention this was 100%), and it would be stupid to blame for this. Or should he have seen in his crystal ball that 100 years later it would become a convenient springboard for a threat to the US (which was a friendly power at the time)?

      And the level of British support for Japan is greatly exaggerated. There is no reason for war to be fought over proxies. If they wanted to humiliate and defeat Russia, they would take advantage of the Gull incident.
      1. 0
        February 10 2024
        Myths about the Tsar-Liberator were spread with the aim of clearing his name and strengthening the idea of ​​autocracy.
        In a big way, he was the Loser Tsar, who inherited a huge empire with huge problems and a draft solution to boot.
        Beautiful-hearted and superficial, he took turns solving them and insisted on the need to change the figures directly leading the process. Nearby, Prussia was solving largely similar problems, and moving with some advance. However, the main vector of transformation among the neighbors was completely different: “Deutschland über alles!” And all transformations were subordinated to this idea. Hence - two won wars that led to the unification of Germany, an economic breakthrough, clear legislative activity and social progress.
        For us: “Reign over us, Orthodox Tsar!” resulted in the impoverishment of the masses, the absence of a program for Russia to conquer its rightful place in a changing world and a social explosion, when passionaries with no prospects, having received support from abroad, embarked on the path of undermining the foundations of the state. Much has been written and rewritten about the shameful leaking of the results of the Balkan War. And thanks to the sale of Alaska (for the palace of St. Petersburg - some kind of wild outskirts) these days it turns into a threat of a full-fledged blockade of our assets in the Arctic.
      2. +1
        February 12 2024
        Quote: Kmon
        He carried out the most important and useful reforms,

        The need for reforms in Russia had become ripe by the mid-19th century - and this was obvious. Alex2 led them through - and well done. Unfortunately, many were either half-hearted or went in the wrong direction altogether.
        And its main problem is the reduction of import duties on industrial goods, which essentially ruined Russian industry. They began to revive it only under Alex3

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