Military Review

Knights of the Great Scythia

67
Knights of the Great ScythiaIn the most interesting stories Nomads of the Eurasian steppes Scythian history - one of the most striking pages. Not by chance since the release of the Scythians in 7 c. BC er to the arena of world history, they act as a powerful military alliance, taking the most active part in the most important historical processes of that time, taking place on vast spaces from the Northern Black Sea region to the depths of the east.

The memory of these campaigns, of the horror that declared the inhabitants of the East from the Transcaucasus to Palestine, has been preserved for centuries. It is enough to read the lines of contemporaries of the campaigns - the biblical prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah, in order to imagine the real situation prevailing there during the times of the Cimmerian-Scythian campaigns to the East.

And he will raise the banner to far nations (modern researchers see Cimmerians and Scythians in them. - E. Ch.), And give a sign to those living on the edge of the earth - and now he will come soon and easily. He will have neither tired nor exhausted; not one will slumber and fall asleep, and the belt shall not be removed from his loins, and the belt of his shoes will not be torn. His arrows are pointed, and all his bows are taut; the hooves of his horses are like stone. His roar, like the roar of a lioness ... And so darkness, grief and light faded in the clouds (Isaiah, 5, 2630).

And yet ... Here, I will bring to you, the house of Israel, a nation from afar .... a strong people, an ancient people, a people whose language you don’t know, and you won’t understand what it says. His quiver is like an open grave; they are all men of courage. And they shall eat your harvest and your bread; they will eat your sons and your daughters; they will eat your grapes and figs; they will destroy with the sword the fortified cities of yours that you hope for.

Interesting data on the presence of the Scythians in the east are reported by the father of history, the ancient Greek traveler, geographer and writer Herodot of Halicarnassus: Scythians have ruled Asia for twenty-eight years and have devastated everyone with their riot and excesses. For, besides the fact that they levied the tribute imposed by each people, they raided and plundered. Most of them Kiaksar (the king of the Medes. - E. Ch.) And the Medes, having invited to the feast and drunk drunk, killed ... (Herodotus, 1, 106).

The successful military activities of the Scythians were largely ensured by the presence of perfect weapons, standing at the level of the best achievements of military technology of that era.

During the great marches to the East during the heroic period of its history, the Scythians began to form a characteristic complex of Scythian weapons. Acquaintance with the weapons of the advanced powers of the Ancient East (Assyria, Urartu, Mussels, Babylon, etc.), with which or against which the Scythians had to fight, gave a powerful impetus to the development of military affairs of the Scythians as a whole and, above all, their weapons. Most of all this concerns the new, previously unknown to the Scythians (however, ns only for them, but for all other peoples of Eurasia of that time) weapons - means of personal protection of a warrior and means of protection of a warhorse.

In the East, the Scythians became acquainted with the original system for the manufacture of shells. Their leather base was covered with a set of metal (usually iron) relatively small plates, forming a coating similar in type to fish scales. The plates were fixed on the base and between each other with the help of leather laces or strands. A well-designed set system made it possible to place the set plates in the 2-3 layer at any point of the armor.

But if only the shells of the soldiers of the East had such shells, Scythian gunsmiths widely used this set in the production of the whole complex of protective weapons: helmets, armors, combat belts, various armor that protected the warrior's legs, shields, and possibly means of warhorse protection.

Warrior from the barrow at Novorozanovka

The main means of personal protection of the warrior was shell. The shells of the Scythians are very diverse. Many of them are individual. Usually, only the part of the armor that adjoined the throat, chest or the whole front part was protected with a metal set. Known specimens and with a solid metallic coating. The shells differed a variety of cut. Usually they looked like a shirt with short and long sleeves. As the melee began to be used more and more, in which the horsemen were cut with long swords, the need arose for an additional strengthening of the shoulders of the warriors, which were attacked by a powerful chopping blow. Therefore, they began to produce shells, in which the set plates on the shoulders were not in the 2-3 layer, but larger. These were shells with mantles. To decorate the armor set used bronze cast plates, made in the characteristic Scythian animal style.

Typically Scythian were combat belts, the leather base of which was covered with a metal set, similar to the armored fastening method. These belts were used only for carrying swords and daggers, griefs and battle axes, other military equipment. Combat belts successfully complemented the shells. In the place of the shell where the belt was located on top of it, the skin of the set often did not have and the width of the gap in the system of the shell set coincided with the width of the belt. There is a series of wide combat belts of the Scythian archaic period, which, using a short shell, protected the lower part of the warrior's corps. Later, these combat belts became part of the shell, making it one.

The head of the warrior defended the helmet. In 7 c. BC er the warriors of Great Scythia used massive and fairly heavy cast helmets so-called. Kuban type. They tightly adhered to the head, protecting the upper part and ears. The back of the head and cheeks protected the individual parts, covered with a metal set, similar to the shell.

From 5 c. BC er helmets of ancient types penetrate into Scythia. At first they were helmets of the Corinthian, Chalcis and Illyrian types, and then Attic and South Greek. More 60 helmets made in Greece - light, durable and well-made, made of shiny gold-polished bronze, found in the mounds of Scythia or found under random circumstances.

Starting in 5 c. BC er an ordinary Scythian hat-hood, very well known from the images of Scythians in Greek toreutics and vase painting, gets a metal coating that is very close in armor-like character. They become a reliable and convenient head protection. They have all the elements that are required for the best helmets of antiquity - the helmets of antique developed types - cheek pads and back pads. Only the noseband was missing. It was much easier to produce them than Greek forged ones, the manufacture of which stood at the extreme limits of the technical possibilities of that time.

These helmets of the work of local craftsmen to some extent continued the tradition of producing local Kuban helmets, coexisted with the head armor of Greek designs and were used by the warriors of Scythia until the death of Great Scythia at the end of 4. before and. er

Much attention in the Scythian military life was given to the means of protecting the legs of soldiers. Scythian gunsmiths made them, as well as shells, from a set of iron plates. Now there are several types of armor. These are type-setting greaves, harnesses, leather pants, covered with an iron set on the front and on the sides. The set on the back of the pants made it impossible to ride a horse.

From 5 c. BC er In the Scythian military burials there are Greek greaves (cnemides). Light and beautiful, comfortable, forged from a sheet of bronze, they reliably protected the lower leg and knee. More than 70 copies of these weapons in whole or in destroyed form are known in the mounds of Scythia.

It should be noted that the Greek defensive armament that entered the armament of the soldiers of Scythia was not used by them as in Greece. If in Hellas, helmets and leggings were the usual armament of heavy infantry — the hoplites, who fought in the dense, closed formation of the phalanx, then in Scythia they were only in heavily armed horsemen.

A reliable means of protecting the warrior was the shield. The bulk of the Scythian shields were made of wood and leather, and only therefore not preserved. An idea of ​​this weapon is given by those specimens that had a metal coating and toreutics objects.

Shields with a continuous sheet metal coating are distinguished. Good examples of such shields are round shites from the most famous Scythian kurgans of Kuban - Kostroma and Kelermessky. They are decorated with magnificent golden plates in the form of a deer and panther, which are masterpieces of the Scythian toreutics of the archaic era.

There is a large group of shields with armor-coated, which had a metal set similar to or similar to a set of armors. In most cases, their form is not restored. Only the finds of recent years allowed us to single out a group of shields identical in shape, plate arrangement and method of using the warrior’s bean-like shield depicted on the crest from the royal tomb of Solokh in the Dnieper steppe. These shields were securely fastened to the rider's armor on the back and forearm. They left the hands of a warrior free to control the horse and possession of weapons. By turning his hand, he could cover one or another part of his body.

Shields with a metal coating (armored) were worn only by noble warriors, warriors, warriors. The bulk of the Scythian warriors were armed with light shields made of wood, leather, rods. Such shields can be seen on the ridge of Solokha.

Scythians paid great attention to decorating their defensive weapons. All its types (except for helmets and leg armor) were decorated with details (sometimes real works of art) of gold or bronze. As part of the armor set successfully used a set of alternating sections of bronze and iron plates.

A prominent place in the Scythian weapons complex was occupied by spears and darts. Their number in the studied Scythian burials exceeds a thousand. Their usual length ranges from 1,8 to 2. Only a few specimens are longer than 3. Short spears were used for close combat and for throwing horse and foot soldiers. Long spears were used only for equestrian combat, playing the role of pikes. Darts were used as throwing weapons.

On the territory of Scythia about 450 swords and daggers are known. As a rule, they are double-edged. Only at sunset Great Scythia begin to use a few single-edged swords. Throughout the existence of this weapon, the shape of the handle as a whole and its individual elements — the tops and cross-hairs — changes. The usual length of a Scythian sword fluctuated within 50-60, see. A lot of swords of greater length, and slightly exceed 1. Swords allowed to effectively fight in all types of equestrian and foot combat. They were worn in a sheath of wood, covered with leather. The skin of the scabbard is often decorated with appliqué. The scabbard of ceremonial swords of the nobility was covered with gold overlays. Gold and decorated the handle. The golden decor of the scabbard is often made in the best traditions of high Scythian art. Scythian gunsmiths paid great attention to the manufacture of swords. The best metal was used for their production, which was not much lower than the requirements for modern weapons.

Scythian armament was rightly considered one of the most advanced for its time. At this time, an advanced weapon system was created, which did not undergo any noticeable changes and additions until the invention of firearms. For the entire subsequent history of the development of weapons to the developed Middle Ages, only the sword and chain mail were included in the armaments of the warriors of Eurasia. Yes, and there are certain grounds that suggest the possibility of the appearance of chain mail on the territory of Great Scythia as early as Scythian time (end of the 4th century BC).

Most of the weapons were made by the Scythian gunsmiths themselves. The production of weapons from the Scythians has received a very large development. Most of the metal produced here was used to make weapons and horse harness. This applies not only to iron and bronze, but also to gold. For the Scythian nobility and the Scythian models, the best Greek gunsmiths who worked in the numerous workshops of the northern Black Sea colonial cities made luxurious ceremonial weapons richly decorated with gold. Ceremonial swords, axes, armors and combat belts, gorites fell into the hands of Scythian rulers. After the death of their owners were placed with them in the mounds and through the millennia, they survived to the present day, decorating the best museums in the world.

Excellent Scythian weapons had a great influence on the development of weapons of neighboring nations. The Greeks, who lived in colonies on the southern borders along the shores of the Black Sea, fully embraced the entire set of Scythian weapons, abandoning many of their species. Scythian weapons are well represented in the monuments of Central Europe. It penetrated far to the north of Scythia right up to the Arctic Circle, and became widespread among the peoples of Eurasia, thousands of kilometers away.
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  1. Miha_Skif
    Miha_Skif 26 January 2013 10: 20
    +8
    Professional, adequate article. good

    Yes we are! laughing
    1. Iraclius
      Iraclius 26 January 2013 11: 39
      +8
      Quote: Miha_Skif
      Yes we are!

      What is characteristic, not only Slavs lay claim to the Scythian heritage. lol
      In the official historical science of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, after gaining independence in the 1990's. the thesis that Saki (Scythian tribes - Iraclius) were the "ancestors of the Turkic peoples", which is absolutely wrong. In particular, the thesis about the exclusive belonging of the Sak heritage to the Kazakhs, with the ensuing belonging of all achievements: cultural, scientific, military, etc.
      1. Miha_Skif
        Miha_Skif 26 January 2013 15: 45
        +2
        They also have the right.
        Scythian culture was spread over a vast space, it spread among many tribes and peoples laughing
      2. Beck
        Beck 26 January 2013 17: 50
        +18
        Quote: Iraclius
        What is characteristic, not only Slavs lay claim to the Scythian heritage


        Here it is necessary to subdivide and everything will fall into place.

        The Indo-European community began to take shape about 5000 years ago in the interfluve of the Rhine, Danube, and Volga. Then began the movement and relocation. The largest in 1800-1600 BC. Then the majority of Indo-Europeans migrated beyond the Volga in the steppes of present-day Kazakhstan, eastern Trans-Urals, to Central Asia, to southern Siberia to the Yenisei. Remaining Indo-Europeans between the Dniester and the Volgaby the learned world are designated logging culture, by type of burial. Beyond the Volga Indo-Europeans (Indo and Iranian Aryans or simply Aryans) began to be designated andronovo culture, at the site of the first excavation - the village of Andronovka on the Yenisei.

        In the 5th century BC, Herodotus of the descendants of the Srubnaya culture, in the Black Sea region, called Scythians. A little later, the descendants of the Andronovo culture will be called Asian Scythians.

        From here, for many, confusion begins. Because under the Scythians they want to identify one people. I do not know how the Black Sea Scythians, but the Asian Scythians were divided into many tribes scattered throughout Kazakhstan, Middle Asia, the Eastern Urals, Southern Siberia, and the Xinjian region of the PRC. These are the Sarmatians, Savromats, Saks, Tigrahaud, Habomai, Isseydons, Tochars, Yuzhens, wilds, Ephthalites, Massagets, and others.

        So the Black Sea Scythians can be attributed as one of the progenitors of modern Slavs.

        Asian Scythians (Aryans) were gradually assimilated by Turks from their ancestral homeland - the present steppes of Mongolia and Altai, in Kazakhstan, the Volga region, South Siberia, and Central Asia over the course of 1-6 centuries AD.

        I think now no one will get confused and jealous.
        1. Miha_Skif
          Miha_Skif 26 January 2013 20: 49
          +5
          Everything is correct, only everything happened more complicated. In southern Siberia, purely Siberian Samoyed (Selkups, etc.), and, of course, the Mongoloid components, were added. The Black Sea Scythian tribes also experienced some influence, primarily from the neighboring peoples of Hellenic culture (Thracians, etc.). And different Scythian tribes could initially form on an anthropologically different substrate.
          It’s a little about something else, it’s about Scythian culture.
          1. Beck
            Beck 26 January 2013 20: 55
            +4
            Quote: Miha_Skif
            Everything is correct, only everything happened more complicated.


            Well, of course more complicated. It’s impossible to expose everything in detail, the format does not allow it (and I’m not special, so on top). But I think the general direction is correct.

            And the cultures of the Black Sea Scythians and Asian Scythians intertwined. After all, relatives are close, from one root.
            1. Miha_Skif
              Miha_Skif 26 January 2013 22: 06
              +5
              Quote: Beck
              And the cultures of the Black Sea Scythians and Asian Scythians intertwined. After all, relatives are close, from one root.

              Exactly hi
              I'm not special either, I picked up a little from conversations with archaeologists. laughing
              So, archaeologists, in order to attribute any archaeological culture to the Scythian circle, are looking for the so-called "Scythian triad" - a characteristic Scythian weapon, horse harness and a Scythian animal style. Moreover, even the methods of management could be different - someone planted gardens and was engaged in irrigated agriculture in Semirechye, someone fished, someone roamed the steppe, someone grew grain on the southern black soil. Well, the Scythian complex, of course, is broader, there are beliefs, and burial rites, and customs, but there may be different options.
              Most interestingly, the Scythian culture spread very quickly, literally in a couple of centuries, and spread over a vast space - from the Carpathians to Lake Baikal. Doesn’t resemble anything? laughing
              1. Beck
                Beck 27 January 2013 10: 20
                +1
                Quote: Miha_Skif
                Sound familiar?


                Probably slow-thinking me. But somehow I did not understand. If possible in more detail.
                1. Miha_Skif
                  Miha_Skif 27 January 2013 16: 29
                  +2
                  Beck
                  It seems to me that it is not by chance that the borders of the Russian Empire (the future Eurasian Union) practically coincide with the borders of the spread of the Scythian culture (well, with the exception of the Far East and sparsely populated areas), that some basic values, mentality features, similar to those of our many peoples, were originally formed precisely in that distant Scythian era.
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 27 January 2013 18: 05
                    +13
                    Quote: Miha_Skif
                    It seems to me that it is not by chance that the borders of the Russian Empire (the future Eurasian Union) practically coincide with the boundaries of the spread of Scythian culture


                    It may well be. If we come face to face, the first, unconscious, will be - how far we are from each other. But if you look at history closer, well, with the exception of Belarusians, Kyrgyz, and no.

                    You are pure Indo-Europeans. We are not pure Turks, but with a large admixture of blood of Indo-Europeans of Andronovo culture. This is the first point of contact. We have been neighbors for a thousand years. In the southern Russian steppes, the Pechenegs, Khazars, Polovtsians and whether we want it or not, now, but the blood was mixed up even then. And we lived with you for more than half a thousand years in one state - 300 years in the Golden Horde, 174 years in the Russian Empire, 75 years in the USSR. And again the blood got in the way. And neither you nor we can move anywhere. Fate tied to live as neighbors. And we will build the EurAsEC again in one state. So it will be much easier to withstand the challenges of the Americas, Europe, Chinas.

                    If only the Natsiks, cheers, patriots, chauvinists, on both sides, would not interfere. But this, that’s it, directly depends on us personally. We will not let them do everything but build.
                    1. Vodrak
                      Vodrak 28 January 2013 07: 04
                      +2
                      Well, it's just nice to read you !!!
                      No matter how Natsik rests, we are really one nation, and when we ourselves believe in it, no Americans, British and other evil spirits will ever break us. And God grant us to return to ONE country. Amen.....
            2. avreli
              avreli 26 January 2013 22: 46
              +2
              Culture - mutual influence, interweaving - it is of course.
              However, “from one root” is a moot point.
              Somehow I saw a larger selection, but too lazy to look.
              Immediately - an abridged option, but quite illustrative.
              Take a look from pages 114 to 127.
              http://sv-rasseniya.narod.ru/xronologiya/8-vsyo-s-nachala.html/img/foto-114.html

              I do not pretend to be related to the Scythians, but they are not modern Asians at all.
              By the way, the Saki warrior - a symbol of Kazakhstan, looks like a ghost.
              Is there really nothing inside, or the reconstruction of appearance will destroy the myth of historical unity ...
              1. Iraclius
                Iraclius 26 January 2013 23: 48
                +3
                Quote: avreli
                I do not pretend to be related to the Scythians, but they are not modern Asians at all.

                Typical Indo-Europeans. Already someone, but Gerasimov’s skull of the Turk with the skull of the Indo-European does not confuse. This is also confirmed by images from the Greek cities of the Northern Black Sea region. And it is difficult to blame the ancient Greeks for wanting to distort the historical truth about the origin of modern Kazakhs. lol However, among the nomads who reached the Yenisei, mixed marriages were very frequent. Therefore, people with Asian facial features are often buried in the Scythian burials there.
              2. Miha_Skif
                Miha_Skif 27 January 2013 00: 00
                +5
                avreli
                A skiff from Berel burial mound was found in your collection, it has obvious eastern facial features (http://sv-rasseniya.narod.ru/xronologiya/8-vsyo-s-nachala.html/img/foto-116.htm
                l). Berel is somewhere on the border between Gorny Altai and Kazakhstan. But most are typical russians, some figurines on the pictorial even have a haircut under the pot laughing
                Everything is as it should be. The core of the Scythian community is Aryan tribes, which in literature are politically correct and completely incorrectly called Iranian-speaking (they have nothing to do with Iran). And in some cases, a different phenotype will prevail in the Scythians.
                A Scythian is not a nationality, not an ethnicity, it is an affiliation to the Scythian culture.
                1. Iraclius
                  Iraclius 27 January 2013 00: 05
                  +5
                  Here are also typical "prakazakhs":

                  Guys, get me right. With all due respect to the Kazakhs, their culture has little in common with the culture of Indo-European nomads. request
                2. Frigate
                  Frigate 27 January 2013 18: 52
                  0
                  Quote: Miha_Skif
                  A Scythian is not a nationality, not an ethnicity, it is an affiliation to the Scythian culture.

                  You are right, it was exactly the same in the Turkic empire, it was the same in the Roman empire, and indeed, when one power defeats another, then the defeated tribes receive or are brought up in the spirit of a victorious culture.
                  It was the same with the Russian kingdom during the time of Grozny, under the term "Russian" all Russian tribes were united. Do not blame me, but in modern Russia, not every Russian knows what kind of family he or she is, everything has been mixed up for a long time, and also in other states
                3. avreli
                  avreli 28 January 2013 04: 46
                  +2
                  Micah, since you are a Scythian, you, of course, know best. smile
                  But at the expense of the "eastern features" I do not quite agree, except perhaps a degree of reconstruction and foreshortening. However, if you make the picture even smaller, the reconstruction can also be written in the Chinese. wink
                  Let’s take a look at a large version.



                  It seems like Chapaev.
                  ...
                  And at the expense of “non-ethnic culture,” discard this modern Russian nonsense.
                  And by the way, most of those who preach this very well understand and defend their ethnic interests.
                  ...
                  Beck: cultures of the Black Sea Scythians and Asian Scythians intertwined
                  Miha_Skif: Exactly
                  In historical retrospect, I somehow do not see the need for a “culture” to unite. However, maybe Beck from the Cossacks of Semirechye, for example ... however, I’ll elaborate on something that he probably outlined too broadly in the post above.
                  Saki "Golden Warrior" has become one of the official symbols of modern Kazakhstan.



                  There is a shell, but where is the content?
                  And here is the reconstruction of Gerasimov - Saki (Central Asian Scythians).



                  Yes, he is more like a German.

                  So to the Scythians, these Kirghiz and Kyrgyz-kaisaki have the same relationship as the Russian cosmodrome.
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 28 January 2013 11: 23
                    +1
                    You inattentively read my comments or simply ignore them. I did not say that the Scythians of Andronovo culture are Türks. Reconstruction of Gerasimov, yes it is a pure Indo-European, Sak. But he lived in the 1-2 century BC. The Turks began to populate the present territory of Kazakhstan from the 1st century AD. And that all the Sakas became extinct and the Türks came to empty lands? They came to the lands of the Saks, established hegemony and assimilated with the Andronovites. And a cross between these tribes began to speak Turkic dialects, and of course with the penetration of Indo-European words of Iranian origin. And also this cross left some traditions of the Saks in the existence of these crosses and the main one is Navruz. (See my previous comments).
                  2. Our
                    Our 23 January 2014 12: 35
                    0
                    to give out the inheritance of humanity that is desired for reality. do you now resemble the Nazis by the skull and will judge by the alignment. nomad, pastoralist, warrior, horseman What did the descendants of the Scythians adopt Aryan Europeans? what way of life? and now look at the Kazakhs, the Turkmen, one on one. There were clever people who say that Genghis Khan was also a Slav.))) He just taught at the Turkic school and did not know Russian, and all state decrees of the message were written in Turkic
              3. Vodrak
                Vodrak 28 January 2013 07: 10
                +3
                And who said that modern Asians are descendants of the Scythians?
                take the same Kazakhs - everyone perfectly understands that their present appearance is only thanks to the Mongols.
                many Kazakh tribes generally descend from descendants of Chenghiz Khan.
                I think the same thing with the Uzbeks and Tajiks, probably.
                but in general Kazakhs still survived - generally pure Europeans, redheads and blue eyes ............
                1. Flamberg
                  Flamberg 1 March 2013 19: 03
                  +1
                  Just as there are red Tajiks - the descendants of the settled warriors of Iskander the Two-Horned.
        2. Iraclius
          Iraclius 26 January 2013 22: 56
          +4
          Your comment not only did not clarify, but confused everything even more, so do not blame me.
          Firstly, how do the Saki Indo-Europeans relate to the later Turkic-speaking nomads, the ancestors of the Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, and Turkmens? As for assimilation, it sounds somehow unconvincing. Russians and Tatars live together for a very long time and do not assimilate others. For some reason, the Eastern Iranians - the ancestors of the Tajiks have never been assimilated by the ancestors of the Uzbek Turks. If you are Kazakh, can you give words in the Kazakh language that are unambiguously interpreted as ancient Indo-European? Is there an ancient Indo-European place-name in Kazakhstan?
          More questions than answers.
          Secondly - the Ephthalites - the Huns. Most likely, also Turkic-speaking, although the debate on this subject does not stop.
          1. romb
            romb 27 January 2013 10: 51
            +4
            Firstly, how do the Saki Indo-Europeans relate to the later Turkic-speaking nomads,

            Why, then, quite even correlate. As they often write: neither Usun, nor Kangyui were "proto-Türkic-speaking" peoples (tribes), and did not belong to the representatives of the Mongoloid race, which, however, absolutely did not prevent their descendants from becoming an integral part of the Kazakh ethnos after a certain historical period.
          2. Beck
            Beck 27 January 2013 11: 33
            +3
            Quote: Iraclius
            Your comment not only did not clarify, but confused everything even more, so do not blame me.


            The word do not blame in this context is not acceptable. Website and created to exchange views. And it is not necessary that the opinions be the same. To answer your questions a lot needs to be answered, but I will try to compose briefly.

            The ancestral home of the Turks is Altai and the steppes of present-day Mongolia. In the 2nd century BC, the power of the Turkic-speaking Huns was formed in this territory. These Huns were assimilated by the Indo-European tribes of Andronovo culture on the Yenisei and in the Baraba steppes of the northern foothills of Altai. In the 1st century AD part of the Huns moved to the southeast of present-day Kazakhstan and assimilated Saks, tigrahaud, haomovargs, and other representatives of the Andronovo culture. Ethnically mixed tribes were formed, but with a Turkic dialect, which of course included the Indo-European words of the Aryan Iranian-speaking group. In the 2nd century AD the other part of the Huns moves to the north of Kazakhstan and the Volga region where they assimilate the Savromats, Ugro-Finns and other representatives of the Indo-Europeans of Andronovo culture. In the 4th century, part of the newly formed tribes with the Turkic dialect, under the Europeanized name of the Huns, went to Europe, causing the Great Migration of Peoples. The rest, from time to time, forms the Proto-Bulgar.

            In the 6th century, the Turkic Kaganate was formed, from Ussuri to the Don. And at this time, the last representatives of the Indo-European Andronovites in southwestern Kazakhstan and Central Asia are assimilating.

            This is how, by mixing, assimilation of the Andronov Indo-Europeans of the Iranian group and the Turks, "new" tribes with the Turkic languages ​​were formed. And already from these tribes in the 14-15 centuries the Turkic peoples were formed - Kazakhs, Turkmens, Kirghiz, Bashkirs and others.
            1. Beck
              Beck 27 January 2013 11: 42
              +2
              The spread of Indo-European Andronovo culture from 1800-1600 BC to the 1st century AD, in Kazakhstan, Southern Siberia, Eastern Urals, Central Asia.
              1. Beck
                Beck 27 January 2013 11: 45
                -1
                The formation of the Turkic-speaking power of the Huns in the 2nd century BC.
                1. Beck
                  Beck 27 January 2013 11: 47
                  +1
                  The formation of the Turkic Kaganate in the 6th century AD.
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 27 January 2013 12: 20
                    +3
                    Quote: Iraclius
                    If you are Kazakh, can you give words in the Kazakh language that are unambiguously interpreted as ancient Indo-European?


                    Indo-Europeans of the Andronovo culture are the arias of the Indo and Iranian groups, more of the Iranian group, then the languages ​​of the Saks, Massagets, Haumovarg, Tokhars, Sogds, Massagets and others (which were assimilated by the Turks) are closely related to the Iranian languages. One language can be said, but different dialects. And of course, in real Turkic languages ​​there are words coming from Andronovites.

                    These are proper names - Rustam, Madi these are not Turkic names, these are the names of Saka (Scythian) heroes and kings. Word Tolkyn - The wave is also Iranian-Saki. Word Nur - permeated with light, radiant. The name Nursultan is the Radiant Sultan.
                    In all Turkic languages ​​there are words denoting the earth. But the Iranian-Saka word is Mill - land, among the Turkic peoples became the designation of the Motherland - Kazakhstan, Tatarstan - the Land of the Kazakhs, the Land of the Tatars.

                    In the first millennium BC, in the expanses of the country, Ariyanam Vaija - Prostor Ariev (Andronovskaya culture), a priest of Zarathushtra from the Spitama clan, proclaimed a new faith. Belief in the only, inalienable, eternal god of the creator Ahura Mazda - Lord Wisdom. Creator of all other gods and all good. The purpose of Faith is Good thought, Good Word, Good Work. Zarathushtra calculated the day of the vernal equinox - March 22 and proclaimed it the revival of the new (New Year), and established festivities on this day.

                    For all Turkic peoples, through the Aryans of Andronovo culture assimilated by them, this holiday has survived to this day. it Navruz. And all Turkic-speaking peoples celebrate it. And they carried this holiday of spring through all the perturbations of development. Even Islam could not ban it.
                    1. Iraclius
                      Iraclius 27 January 2013 19: 42
                      +1
                      Beckas I understand it, the issue of names with Indo-European roots is controversial. Most likely, they were not borrowed from the Scythians, but in later times with the conversion of the Turks to Islam. These names were borrowed from the Persians and then spread along with the spread of Islam.
                      Well, as for Navruz, I don’t even know how to comment. The fact is that the term itself first appeared on the territory of the Achaemenid empire and was later extended to territories subject to the Persians, including and those where the main population were Turks. This has nothing to do with the Scythians.

                      ***
                      Now I have a feeling that Kazakhs are ashamed of their relatively young historical age and are trying in every possible way to "make it older", enrolling peoples who once lived in Kazakhstan as ancestors.
                      Using the same logic, we Russians should strive to derive our origin not from the ancient Slavic tribes of the Tale of Bygone Years, but from the oldest autochthonous tribes of the Finno-Ugric peoples. What a stupid thing.
                      1. Frigate
                        Frigate 27 January 2013 20: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Iraclius

                        Now I have a feeling that Kazakhs are ashamed of their relatively young historical age and are trying in every possible way to "make it older", enrolling peoples who once lived in Kazakhstan as ancestors.
                        Using the same logic, we Russians should strive to derive our origin not from the ancient Slavic tribes of the Tale of Bygone Years, but from the oldest autochthonous tribes of the Finno-Ugric peoples. What a stupid thing.

                        Dear, you are not a stupid person. If you become a scientist and come up with a time machine, or at least not from the realm of science fiction: you come up with how you can trace a particular human gene in different territories, then not only the Kazakhs will agitate their common past, and not only Russians, but also other peoples, but by tracking human genes rest assured, you will come to the conclusion that all of humanity is related, and black, and white, and different, and red, and all.

                        I will say for your thoughts. for example, in the courtyard of the 15th century, let’s say that, conditionally, no offense, your distant ancestor Ivan did not marry and has no children, he died and his family ended on it. But you exist, which means that all people living on Earth conditionally have their ancestors, it’s just the difficulty that everything is mixed, and it’s hard to identify who has more genes.
                        For example, it is traditionally believed that the father gives the surname to the child and gender, and therefore many think that it is not in vain that the child has 100500% of the father's genes, but this is not so. more genes are transmitted by the mother, because the child’s body is built from her own body. Read Az and I Olzhas Suleimenov, I think, so you will fully understand what thought I wanted to convey to you.
                        Regards, Frigate
                      2. AlexW
                        AlexW 27 January 2013 20: 27
                        +2
                        absolutely true. Without resorting to complex mathematical calculations, I drew such a "family tree": - I have two parents, so that they were born two more couples had to meet, etc. Taking the average birth of a new generation in 30 years, after minus 800 years I was horrified, There could not be so many people on the planet, my ancestors - and not relatives. Conclusion: - all people are brothers (or sisters) fellow
                      3. Frigate
                        Frigate 27 January 2013 20: 41
                        +2
                        I absolutely agree with you. and despite the fact that you took the simplest task.
                        And imagine how difficult it is to consider Muslim children, from one father all father's children. or families with many children. father and mother, plus 5 or more children, all of them, too, in their own way continue their own or another's kind.
                        For this I respect the Russians very much, for the simplicity and wit of the mind and resourcefulness.
                      4. Beck
                        Beck 27 January 2013 20: 58
                        +3
                        Alex and Frigate.

                        The postulate of the law of nature. The genealogy of all people in the offspring can be stopped. War, accident, illness. But each of us has ancestors who, before dying, gave birth to offspring. Without some ancestor in the 5-10 or 100 tribe, I personally would not be there, like you.

                        What does this mean, and that the genealogy of the ancestors of none of the living people has been suppressed. And goes for millennia into the past, to the only Adam. And millions of years ago to the first primitive mammal. And billions of years ago, to the first divided cell.

                        These are the pies, if you think about it. And if it is to realize what ethnic claims may be to a neighbor, to a nonresident, to a stranger, to black or white. We are all from one mitochondria.
                      5. Frigate
                        Frigate 27 January 2013 21: 04
                        +2
                        Quote: Beck

                        These are the pies, if you think about it. And if it is to realize what ethnic claims may be to a neighbor, to a nonresident, to a stranger, to black or white. We are all from one mitochondria.

                        You have developed the thought even further, thanks for that. The roots are nowhere to look for, except besides the Earth, all our roots are woven into the Earth
                      6. Nurius
                        Nurius 30 January 2013 10: 22
                        0
                        True, mitochondrial Eve, the ancestor of all people living on earth, genetic scientists have already thoroughly investigated all this.
                      7. Iraclius
                        Iraclius 27 January 2013 21: 00
                        +2
                        Frigate, I hardly think of a time machine. Yes, and you need to live, rushing into the future. Another thing is that now it has become the norm to rewrite history. I hate the attempts of fraternal Ukraine to grind out the blood ties of the Eastern Slavs, the attempts of Uzbekistan to establish the ridiculous theory that the Aryans were not proto-Iranian peoples, but proto-Türks are incomprehensible. It is wary that certain circles in Kazakhstan are also interested in supporting pan-Turkism, artificially and gracefully aging their history. It is clear that this is being done purely for political purposes. But shouldn't common sense suffer?
                      8. Frigate
                        Frigate 27 January 2013 21: 19
                        +2
                        You are talking about Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and in general you are talking a lot about what, but do you remember your Russian Levashovs, Chudinovs, Nosovskys-Fomenkovs, Petukhovs ??? if you know about them for the first time, please read their writings, don’t be afraid of the alternative, you just have to think normally, any information if applied incorrectly can harm.
                        And as for the Kazakh pseudo-scientists, I will tell you one thing: there was one topic about Rurik, and there were different disputes there. then he suddenly met the Kazakh version of Rurik and laughed for a long time, handsome, beautifully trolled everyone, but many did not understand this and took it as a version of the Academy of Sciences of Kazakhstan.
                        The disease of alternative people is that they perceive any humor as someone’s point of view. On this site, one of the same Kazakh trolling presented as the true point of view of Kazakhstan, it is a pity of course.

                        In general, these historians of yours are everywhere in bulk, and in the USA, they have battles there about the Civil War, both in Japan and in China. Your neglect of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine is inappropriate here, so Russia itself is in this URA.
                        Have you ever seen a Kazakhstani or a Kazakh on this forum, which accepted Fomenko as the true point of view of All Russia?
                      9. Beck
                        Beck 27 January 2013 20: 40
                        +5
                        Quote: Iraclius
                        Now I have the feeling that Kazakhs are ashamed of their relatively young historical age and are trying in every possible way to "make it old"


                        Why feel shy? I am not ashamed. Well, they have lagged behind in development, well, a khan similar to your tsar Peter didn’t have a malformation. Well, that’s how the story went. Russia entered 10 pages in world history, Kazakhstan 000. But even this thousand cannot be thrown out, history will be incomplete. It was during the Soviet era that the history of the steppe was hushed up. And this ignorance brought up whole generations. Klyashtorny, Gumilev, Sultanov just revealed to the world what it is. And why neglect it. What, does it somehow belittle the history of other nations? It does not detract at all.

                        I won’t talk about names. I cited to confirm or refute the facts anyway no. Here mine is on yours.

                        Quote: Iraclius
                        Well, as for Navruz, I don’t even know how to comment. The fact is that the term itself first appeared on the territory of the Achaemenid empire and was later extended to territories subject to the Persians, including and those where the main population was Türks.


                        And here it is categorically and completely. Purely Iranian powers have never owned the lands on which the Turks lived, since their arrival in Kazakhstan and Central Asia. This Iran from time to time fell under the influence of the Turks. Turkic Seljuks, Timur. Genghis hikes. You read inattentively, probably my top comment. It is Zoroastrianism of Zarathushtra that came to Iran from the steppes of Kazakhstan of the Indo-Indo and Iranian Aryans of Andronovo culture. And not vice versa. The fact that Zoroastrianism arose after some of the Andronovites in the form of Iranian and Indo-Aryans left for Iran and India is indicated by such a fact.
                        Before Zoroastrianism, Andronovites, like God, revered a sacred cow. Indo and Iranian Aires left for Iran and India with this god. In India, a cow is still revered for a sacred animal, most Indians do not know, now, why. And in Iran, Zoroastrianism came from the steppe and was taken for the state religion by the Persian rulers, most likely, like in the steppe, Zoroastrianism replaced the cow in Iran by the god. And Navruz was born along with Zoroastrianism in the steppe.

                        Last thing. I do not take away the education of the Turks previously noted in the stories. This is the Hunnu of the 2nd century BC. Of course, Turkic-speaking tribes existed before, languages ​​cannot arise suddenly, but there are no written sources about them. And the main thing. I do not build Kazakhs to the 1st century before or after our era. I am talking about the Turkic-speaking tribes, an analogy of the Slavic tribes, which, assimilating with the Andronovites in the 1st-6th centuries, gave a cross between the tribes speaking Turkic dialects. Here from these crosses only in the 14-15th century. I will repeat in the 14-15th century, formed the ethnic groups of Kazakhs, Turkmen, Uzbeks. And you are not grasping the context of my previous comments, persistently pull me to what I don’t think about.
                      10. Miha_Skif
                        Miha_Skif 27 January 2013 20: 55
                        +1
                        Iraclius
                        You are not right.
                        In the 7th century, the Arab conquest of Western Asia (Persia) and the forcible Islamization of the entire population took place, the Zoroastrians and representatives of other traditional beliefs for Persia (fire-worshipers of different movements) were almost completely destroyed. Then, already from Persia, this Arab expansion spread to Central Asia, but already in a weakened form. Mostly settled, agricultural crops were subjected to Islamization, this affected the nomads to a lesser extent, many retained their traditional beliefs.
                        The Scythians were mostly fire worshipers, respectively, this religion in Central Asia was widespread. The day of the vernal equinox - Navruz - (the main holiday of all fire-worshipers) was celebrated nationwide in the Scythian era, and before the Arab conquest, and after, it is celebrated now.
                      11. Beck
                        Beck 27 January 2013 21: 05
                        +2
                        Quote: Miha_Skif
                        Vernal equinox - Navruz


                        Thanks for Navruz.
                      12. Iraclius
                        Iraclius 27 January 2013 21: 43
                        0
                        Beck, I now approximately represent your position. With the time frame for the formation of the Kazakh ethnic group that you voiced, official science agrees, and, therefore, I do. yes The Andronovo culture in the territory of modern Kazakhstan was replaced by the Karasuk culture - most likely of North Chinese or Central Asian origin. Nevertheless, this does not allow in any way to withdraw even the later Kazakh people from the Scythians / Saks. They certainly had a certain influence on the newcomer Turks, but nothing more.

                        ***
                        Beck и Skif - I beg you not to slide down to the level of pseudoscientific speculation, especially since our conversation is developing in a very friendly and benevolent manner. The holy book of fire worshipers - the Avesta - in the most ancient compilation dates back to the Sassanid period and even the beginning of the Islamization of the remnants of the Persian Empire. The approximate and extremely unreliable localization of Zarathushtra’s sermons is located in the south of later Sogdiana and northern Bactria, where by that time already settled Iranian tribes lived, much closer in culture and language to the inhabitants of Pars than the ancient Iranian-speaking nomads of the Eurasian steppe. The cult of fire and the sun is common to all Indo-European tribes. So Navruz, as a holiday, spread from the territory of the Iranian Highlands / Hindu Kush towards Central Asia, but not the other way around.
                      13. Beck
                        Beck 27 January 2013 22: 02
                        +5
                        Quote: Iraclius
                        your position now I can roughly imagine


                        So. I do not agree with your last comment. But already our polemic has reached the point that we will begin to repeat ourselves. And this is useless. You stayed on your own, I'm on my own and this is also the result. Since one or another opposing argument will nevertheless sink into consciousness, and if necessary, they will be tested. That is, they will force us to look for something, be interested, and therefore live.

                        Thanks for the opposition. All the best in this night and all life. Somewhere, on the site, we’ll meet again. And none of us will say whether we will be opponents, in any topic, or associates. Till.
                      14. Iraclius
                        Iraclius 27 January 2013 22: 16
                        0
                        Thanks for the conversation and good night! hi
                      15. Miha_Skif
                        Miha_Skif 27 January 2013 22: 41
                        +1
                        Interestingly, the Slavs have their own ancient holiday, an analogue of Navruz. This is Shrovetide. In the pre-Christian period, it was also celebrated on the day of the vernal equinox (the border of Winter and Spring), from this day the countdown of the new year began. With the adoption of Christianity in Russia, this holiday was built into the Orthodox calendar, moved and began to be celebrated a week before Lent.

                        Respected Iraclius, I do not pretend to be the ultimate truth, these are my assumptions based on some real facts what
                      16. Frigate
                        Frigate 27 January 2013 22: 49
                        +1
                        Quote: Miha_Skif

                        Interestingly

                        I want to recommend you to read, if you want Olzhas Suleimenov, you can skip Az and I and start with "Language of writing" here is the link http://kitap.net.ru/sulejmenov/yazykpisma.php

                        The material is small, even a little more than small.

                        Regards, Frigate
                      17. Beck
                        Beck 27 January 2013 22: 56
                        +2
                        Quote: Miha_Skif
                        This is Shrovetide.


                        Well. A conversation is never worthless. I thought Shrovetide is just a holiday to eat pancakes. And where the roots go.

                        The night is already. Thank you for the conversation Skiff. We’ll meet again.
                      18. Miha_Skif
                        Miha_Skif 27 January 2013 22: 57
                        0
                        When I tried to talk about the ethnogenesis of Scythians with academician Molodin, he spat for a long time, shook his head, and at the end gave me his monograph on mitochondrial DNA genealogy (female genealogy). I almost didn’t understand anything in it laughing
                        Goodnight.
                      19. Miha_Skif
                        Miha_Skif 28 January 2013 00: 48
                        0
                        It's me that the process of cognition is endless smile
                        Prior to the meeting
                      20. Nurius
                        Nurius 30 January 2013 10: 18
                        +1
                        Why so? It is impossible to reject some ancestors and extol others, many peoples were formed on the basis of an alien and indigenous population, the same peoples of Western Europe, a mixture of conquerors and conquered, Russians, Tatars, Kazakhs, and so on is no exception
                        As for the Scythian vocabulary, maybe there is one, there are works by some researchers on this issue, in one forum they cited an example, but not always assimilated people, leave their vocabulary conquered in the same English, if the memory does not change a little more than a dozen words from Celtic , although there was intense assimilation of the Celts, by the Anglo-Saxons
            2. Iraclius
              Iraclius 27 January 2013 11: 59
              0
              BeckThank you for refreshing the ethnogenesis of the Turkic peoples. Now back to my first post. In order not to leaf, I will quote myself right here:
              In the official historical science of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, after gaining independence in the 1990's. the thesis that Saki (Scythian tribes - Iraclius) were the "ancestors of the Turkic peoples".

              Actually, only this thesis I questioned. wink
              So ancestors or not ancestors? You say no (actually, the story that I was taught says about the same). But the official historical science of modern Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan says no. Therefore, your version is unofficial. Who do you want to believe?
              1. Beck
                Beck 27 January 2013 13: 01
                +2
                Quote: Iraclius
                Who do you want to believe?


                Dear, I can’t order you. This is everyone’s choice, from understanding the objective and not contradicting logic. I already answered higher and lower as I could. To put it bluntly, the Türks are papa, the Saki are mum, the Turkic-speaking peoples are their children.

                As for Azerbaijan, I can add the following. By the 6th century, the entire territory of Central Asia, Southern Siberia, the Volga region was assimilated by the Türks, and since they dominated politically the cross between the Indo-Aryan tribes and the Türks became Turkic.

                But the Turks did not sit still. In the 10th century, the Oghuz Turks from the shores of the Syr Darya and Amu Darya, under the name of Seljuk Turks, went west, enveloping the Caspian Sea from the south. They conquered Persia, defeated the Baghdad Caliphate, captured most of the Byzantine Empire. And the people of Azerbaijan, only in my opinion, are for the most part a metropolitan population in the east of Transcaucasia and north-west of Iran. In 1453, the Turks captured Constantinople and founded the Ottoman Empire. The Turks on their way mixed with Persians, Caucasian peoples, Arabs, Greeks, Slavs. As a result, anthropologically, today's Turks have turned out, but with the Turkic language. In general, the word Turk is the Europeanized word Turk. The Turks themselves call themselves Turk.
                1. Iraclius
                  Iraclius 27 January 2013 13: 48
                  0
                  Beck, you forgive me for the persistence, but due to the specifics of Soviet education, all these new-fangled theories of ethnogenesis, such as ukrov in Ukraine, Sako-Kazakhs, etc., to put it mildly, I do not understand. There is a recognized expert in the history of Scythians - scientist Tamara T. Wright. I practically know by heart her book The Builders of the Steppe Pyramids and there is not a word said about the succession of the Türks and Scythians. Scythians and Sarmatians - yes, Scythians and Slavs - yes. but not a word is said about the Türks.
                  But the ethnogenesis of the original Turkic substrate was noted by the synthesis of only two large population groups:
                  1. formed west of the Volga, in the III — II millennium BC. e., during the centuries-old migrations in the eastern and southern directions, it became the predominant population of the Volga region and Kazakhstan, Altai and the valley of the Upper Yenisei.
                  2. that later appeared in the steppes east of the Yenisei, had an intra-Asian origin.
                  These peoples already spoke Turkic languages ​​and had their own culture.
                  The Turks are the same age as the Scythians. And by itself the ethnonym "Kazakh" appeared not earlier than the 15th century. and other Turkic peoples certainly took part in the ethnogenesis of this people, but certainly not the Scythians.
                  Forgive me, but keeping the pedigree of Kazakhs and Turks from Indo-Europeans is not correct.
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 27 January 2013 17: 21
                    +3
                    Quote: Iraclius
                    There is a recognized expert in the history of Scythians - scientist Tamara T. Wright. I practically know by heart her book The Builders of the Steppe Pyramids and there is not a word said about the succession of the Türks and Scythians.


                    In the history of the Scythians, there are separate topics and periods that the researcher explores. And in any topic it is limited precisely to the topic or period from now to now.

                    What I wrote in comments is a free presentation of the historical and archaeological works of the head of the Department of Turkology and Mogolistics of St. Petersburg University, Professor Klyashtorny and the works of Gumilyov. And also some other historical works that I once read, when there was still no Internet, whose authors I no longer remember.

                    Anything else to supplement on the topic I do not see the point for myself, because I knew that I already posted it. And again, to list what has been said is already empty.

                    I have a little suspicion, only a suspicion, that you had a stereotype of either the Soviet school of history, or, excuse me, some neglect of nomadic culture. In Soviet times, what was known about the nomadic world? And what fit into a few words - a yurt, a steppe, a shepherd, a nomad. When, during perestroika and after, the works about the nomadic civilization, previously written, but not published by censorship, appeared, many were stunned. AS? What nomads had their own civilization? How did they have their own written language? How did they have their own story? Yes, it can’t be. And therefore, even now, when people are faced with the unknowable, which they attributed to the category - it cannot be and causes almost reflex repulsion.

                    Last thing. There were many peoples on earth, many of them, according to ethnic names, have not reached our days. But this does not mean that the blood of these peoples has disappeared. Ethnonyms have disappeared. And the blood of those peoples still boils through the veins of today's peoples. You are suggesting that the Indo-Europeans of Andronovo culture represented by the Scythians, Sarmatians, Sauromats, Isseydons, Massagets, Saks, Ephthalites, Yuzhen people, wilds, Sogds, Tochars and others, ALL are completely extinct. And the Turks came to empty lands. It can not be. Assimilation occurred and since the Türks were politically dominant, the language at the cross between the tribes became Turkic. And Andronov’s blood mixed the Turkic half. Just like the Slavic tribes of Buzhan, Volhynians, Vyatichi, Drevlyans, Dregovichi, Duleby, Krivichi, Polyana, Radimichi, Northerners, Ilmen Slovens, Tivertsi, Ulitsi, White Croats did not die out and having united their blood and blood of the Ugro-Finns, the Varangians Russian nationality. It is precisely in you that the blood of all these tribes flows, although most of them are no longer anonymous.
                    1. Frigate
                      Frigate 27 January 2013 18: 32
                      0
                      You are respected as always objective, respect
                      1. Beck
                        Beck 27 January 2013 18: 59
                        +2
                        Quote: Frigate
                        You are respected as always objective, respect


                        Thank you fellow countryman. This is how man is arranged that any sign of favor evokes inner satisfaction. Thanks again.
                2. Frigate
                  Frigate 27 January 2013 18: 36
                  +1
                  That's it. The Türkic veoikiy kaganate is the same phenomenon as the USSR.
                  For example, in the USSR there are also many Russified Kazakhs, Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Armenians, Mongols, Koreans and others.
                  that is, the language of communication is Russian, but different nationalities. and at all times of the existence of great empires
              2. Frigate
                Frigate 27 January 2013 18: 41
                +1
                Dear, study the history of all peoples more, if possible, then in their own language and perceive everything objectively. language is the carrier of culture, which means that in order to master the culture, one must learn their language
        3. old rocket man
          old rocket man 27 January 2013 20: 37
          +2
          Quote: Beck
          So the Black Sea Scythians can be attributed as one of the progenitors of modern Slavs.

          Asian Scythians (Aryans) were gradually assimilated by Turks from their ancestral homeland - the present steppes of Mongolia and Altai, in Kazakhstan, the Volga region, South Siberia, and Central Asia over the course of 1-6 centuries AD.

          I think now no one will get confused and jealous.


          This hypothesis, like all others, has the right to exist, but from only hypotheses. no more
          1. Beck
            Beck 27 January 2013 21: 16
            +2
            Quote: Old Rocketman
            This hypothesis, like all others, has a right to exist, but from only hypotheses. No more


            Well, this is not for me. This is to Professor Klyashtorny S.G. - Head of the Turkology and Mongolian Sector of St. Petersburg University. To Gumilev L.N. Doctor of Historical Sciences.
        4. Vodrak
          Vodrak 28 January 2013 06: 54
          +1
          A great addition, you can write your articles here.
          I would love to read it.
          We are waiting.
          1. Beck
            Beck 28 January 2013 11: 28
            +2
            Quote: Vodrak
            You can write your articles here


            At first I wanted to, but admins have some restrictions there. I did not make my way.
      3. Our
        Our 23 January 2014 12: 23
        0
        Well, if the Scythians are nomads of the master of Iron, the ancestors of the Slovenes? how did it happen that Bulat (POLAD) was brought to Russia by the Türks? how can we say that the ancestors are those who have nothing to do with the way of life, and the people living in the same place and leading exactly the same way of life who consider their ancestors to blame them. You are ridiculous.
  2. Iraclius
    Iraclius 26 January 2013 10: 23
    +4
    Interesting article, thanks. In general, the weapons of the nomads of the Eurasian steppe to a large extent seem eclectic - the typeset lamellar armor is of Middle Eastern origin, the helmets and knemids are Attica, Illyria ... It is strange that the article says nothing about the specific Scythian weapon - the battle ax sagaris.


    And the last - the use of Scythian defensive weapons was not so effective in close combat, because the ramming lance error appeared only after the invention of the stirrups by the Sarmatians and reached its finished form among the Parthians and Sassanids.
    1. Beck
      Beck 27 January 2013 19: 31
      +3
      Quote: Iraclius
      It is strange that the article does not say anything about a specific Scythian weapon - the battle ax Sagaris.


      ADD. I almost forgot. Indo-Europeans of Andronovo culture, on the territory of Kazakhstan, were nomads. During burial, sacrificial horses were also put into the grave. According to the posture of these horses, archaeologists have deduced that the Aryans had three breeds of horses. One undersized. The second is of medium height, massive.

      The bones of the third breed, tall, were graceful. When restoring the exterior, it turned out that these horses are very close to the Akhal-Teke, the most beautiful horse in the world. So, we can assume that the ancestor of the Akhal-Teke is a tall horse of Andronovo.

      And the artist portraying the horseman, in the top commentary, somehow inside felt. Akhal-Teke residents are about the same, only higher and their backs are longer.
      1. Frigate
        Frigate 27 January 2013 20: 08
        +2
        You need to be taken out of the negative line, write more reviews, I will plus it, because a person needs to find out something about a person once to understand that this person will not upset you.
        Best regards
        1. Beck
          Beck 27 January 2013 21: 22
          +4
          Quote: Frigate
          You need to deduce from the minus line,


          Thank you of course. But do not try. I'm here on the site not because of the epaulette. Yes, I'm already used to it. The downside is my habitat. Here they put a plus, on the next page they put 20 minuses. This is an everyday matter. It’s good that here on this page there are no cheers.
          1. Frigate
            Frigate 27 January 2013 21: 27
            +4
            Quote: Beck


            Thank you of course. But do not try. I'm here on the site not because of the epaulette. Yes, I'm already used to it. The downside is my habitat. Here they put a plus, on the next page they put 20 minuses. This is an everyday matter.

            No no no. I will get you out of the negative line. in any case, I will play a definite role in this.
  3. Alone
    Alone 26 January 2013 11: 40
    +3
    Interesting article.
  4. omsbon
    omsbon 26 January 2013 16: 16
    +4

    Zillions - you. We - the darkness and darkness and darkness.
    Try, fight with us!
    Yes, we are Scythians! Yes, Asians - we,
    With slanted and greedy eyes!
  5. Sirocco
    Sirocco 26 January 2013 16: 50
    +1
    Apparently not these Scythians were stupid, since they knew how to work at that level with metals in those years. I think that now for the manufacture of armor like fish scales it will take the master more than one month.
    1. Iraclius
      Iraclius 26 January 2013 17: 49
      +3
      Quote: Sirocco
      Apparently not these Scythians were stupid

    2. Beck
      Beck 26 January 2013 19: 53
      +3
      Quote: Sirocco
      Apparently not these Scythians were stupid, since they knew how to work at that level with metals in those years. I think that now for the manufacture of armor like fish scales it will take the master more than one month.


      I agree for a long time, but I notice much less than forging small rings into chain mail with each other.

      Here is the lamellar armor of the Scythians
      1. Beck
        Beck 26 January 2013 20: 10
        +4
        Here is a diagram for creating lamallar armor from iron plates.
        1. Beck
          Beck 26 January 2013 20: 12
          +4
          Here is the "fish scales" of the Saka warrior. From a burial mound near Almaty.
          1. Iraclius
            Iraclius 26 January 2013 22: 58
            +1
            Quote: Beck
            Here is the "fish scales" of the Saka warrior.

            The front armor and the remains are still not clearly identified. Perhaps the remains belong to a woman.
            1. Beck
              Beck 27 January 2013 10: 10
              +5
              Quote: avreli
              I do not pretend to be related to the Scythians, but they are not modern Asians at all. By the way, the Saki warrior - a symbol of Kazakhstan, looks like something to bring about.


              Did I say in koment that Scythians, Saks, Massagets are Asians? All of them Indo-Europeans. But it so happened in history that the Asian Scythians were assimilated by the Turks who came from the east. In the future, from this cross between tribes, the current Turkic peoples were formed - Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Bashkirs, Kirghiz and further.

              Quote: Iraclius
              The front armor and the remains are still not clearly identified. Perhaps the remains belong to a woman.


              I answer both Lraklis and Aureli. Your some perplexities are clear, I just gave a picture. In more detail. This is a Saka youth of 18-20 years old. Sex on bone remains is easy to install. He is an Asian Scythian, a pure Indo-European. It is buried, approximately in the 1-2 century BC, the Turks came to Southeast Kazakhstan in the 1st century AD. But one way or another, he is the ancestor of Kazakhstan, as his relatives mixed blood with the coming Turkic tribes.

              The armor is of course ceremonial and funeral. These are all gold plates. There is also a lot of gold jewelry in the "animal" style. Not visible in the picture, but the straight sword is long, about a meter. What surprised archaeologists, since before that the Scythian akinaki swords were all short, up to 50 cm. In total, about 2000 gold items were found in the burial.

              I will continue a little. Around 1500 BC, part of the Asian Scythians - Andronovites (Indo and Iranian Aryans) passed through Central Asia. The Iranoarians entered the Iranian plateau and assimilated the local, most likely Semitic tribes and became the ancestors of the Persians and present Iranians. The Indo-Aryans marched into northern India and assimilated the Dravidian tribes (the transition type between the white and black races, typical representatives are the indigenous inhabitants of Australia) and became the ancestors of most of the current Indians.

              These are the boilers of ethnic transformation.
              1. Beck
                Beck 27 January 2013 10: 14
                +3
                This is the coat of arms of Kazakhstan.

                The winged-horned horses are temporal ornaments from the headdress of the "golden" Saka youth.
                1. Frigate
                  Frigate 27 January 2013 18: 22
                  +1
                  Yes, beautiful and historical.
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 27 January 2013 19: 04
                    +1
                    Quote: Frigate
                    Yes, beautiful and historical


                    And reception. And a tribute. And rightly so.
                2. old rocket man
                  old rocket man 27 January 2013 21: 13
                  0
                  Beck,
                  There is still not enough, in confirmation of their theories, to refer to the coat of arms of Kazakhstan, Sorry for the harshness, but the coat of arms of Kazakhstan is younger than its astronauts
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 27 January 2013 21: 47
                    +5
                    Quote: Old Rocketman
                    There is still not enough, in confirmation of their theories, to refer to the coat of arms of Kazakhstan, Sorry for the harshness, but the coat of arms of Kazakhstan is younger than its astronauts


                    And why so annoyed. Who said that the coat of arms of independent Kazakhstan should be older than independence itself. And the Saki winged horses on the coat of arms as respect and recognition for one of the components of Kazakhstan itself. If Saki - Indo-Europeans of Andronovo culture lived on this earth, then why refuse them memory.
              2. Frigate
                Frigate 27 January 2013 18: 26
                0
                Yes, dear.
                Especially Eurasia is the largest cauldron of nationalities and races
                And America, Africa, Australia are smaller boilers
            2. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 30 January 2013 02: 16
              +2
              Quote: Iraclius
              The front armor and the remains are still not clearly identified. Perhaps the remains belong to a woman.

              It is possible that a woman. Because this is the headgear worn by the Kazakhs so far) Come to any Kazakh wedding, see for yourself)
    3. Frigate
      Frigate 27 January 2013 18: 30
      +1
      Quote: Sirocco

      Apparently not these Scythians were stupid, since they knew how to work at that level with metals in those years. I think that now for the manufacture of armor like fish scales it will take the master more than one month.

      Many Caucasian peoples are descendants of the Scythian-Sarmatians, the so-called Alans of the steppes, or the most famous in Europe Rexalans (Roksalans) literally "Tsar Alans".
      You will see how the Ossetians inherit the technology of making knives, they literally can "talk" with iron, excellent craftsmen
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 30 January 2013 02: 31
        +2
        With Ossetians there is a hacklog group hack. Not all owners of R1 originate from nomadic Scythians, but almost all nomadic Scythians were representatives of this haplogroup.
        It is quite common among the Kazakhs (Kipchaks, a smaller part of the Argyns, etc.), Kyrgyz, Altai, but among the Ossetians this haplogroup is very rare. Kazakhs have approximately equal numbers of "Western European" and "Asian" haplogroups.
        1. kuman2705
          kuman2705 30 January 2013 03: 02
          0
          hi buddy how day has passed




          hi buddy, how was your day?








          7
        2. Frigate
          Frigate 30 January 2013 08: 30
          0
          Quote: Marek Rozny

          With Ossetians there is a hacklog group hack. Not all owners of R1 originate from nomadic Scythians, but almost all nomadic Scythians were representatives of this haplogroup.
          It is quite common among the Kazakhs (Kipchaks, a smaller part of the Argyns, etc.), Kyrgyz, Altai, but among the Ossetians this haplogroup is very rare. Kazakhs have approximately equal numbers of "Western European" and "Asian" haplogroups.

          You have excellent knowledge, I will tell you. I agree. I only described the cultural part
  6. Karpv
    Karpv 26 January 2013 20: 45
    +1
    Thank you very much for the article, very interesting and informative.
  7. sergo0000
    sergo0000 26 January 2013 22: 14
    +1
    Wonderful and informative article! +++
  8. Veteran
    Veteran 27 January 2013 01: 23
    +6
    the death of Great Scythia at the end of the 4 century. BC e.

    What kind of death are we talking about? In 3 c. BC. the Scythians were driven out by the Sarmatians from the Northern Black Sea region, and they moved to the Crimea, where they created a new Scythian kingdom with the capital in Naples, Scythian. Its highest flowering occurred at the beginning of 2. BC. under Tsar Skilur, but already in this century their martial art is rapidly becoming obsolete. Finally, the kingdom was destroyed by the Goths in the 3 century. AD, after which the Scythians disappeared among the tribes of the Great Migration. Sarmatians, closely related to the Scythians (Scythian-Sarmatian language), also disappeared, but one of their branches nevertheless survived in isolation, these are the Alans. The descendants of the Alans are Ossetians.
    And do not neglect paleolinguistic knowledge, all of the above peoples and tribes are Iranian-speaking.
    1. Frigate
      Frigate 27 January 2013 18: 21
      0
      all right said
  9. Igarr
    Igarr 27 January 2013 12: 04
    +6
    Good comments.
    Only if you start talking - A ... could they say - B.
    What is the article talking about?
    About Great Scythia.
    Which, oddly enough, corresponds to the territory of the Russian Empire, the USSR.
    ...
    I already here on the site .. spoke out on this topic.
    I repeat again.
    The territory of the USSR is the territory of a historical state. United by a community of peoples - FROM DISAPPEARING.
    The state was called by different names - Great Scythia, Empire, Tartaria ... but as you like.
    All the rest ... formations ... of the type of the Horde, Khazaria, Bulgaria, Kievan Rus ... if anyone is so unbearable .... - these are the results of civil wars, separatist sentiments.
    With which the Center (which could move) coped.
    And the peoples now living in this territory - originally lived, developed, mutually enriched - but were true to the EMPIRE.
    And they called them - in different ways ... then the Scythians, then the Mongols, then the Cimmerians ... then the terrible mungals.
    Under the USSR .. it was customary to call - in the WORLD - Russian.
    ..
    So I see.
    1. Frigate
      Frigate 27 January 2013 18: 21
      0
      Yes, you're right about something
  10. Nomad
    Nomad 28 January 2013 11: 15
    +2
    Quote: Veteran
    And do not neglect paleolinguistic knowledge, all of the above peoples and tribes are Iranian-speaking.

    There is no paleolinguistic data on the language of Saks (Scythians). Their Iranian language is an unproven statement, which for some reason is taken as an axiom.

    Quote: Beck
    There were many peoples on earth, many of them, according to ethnic names, have not reached our days. But this does not mean that the blood of these peoples has disappeared. Ethnonyms have disappeared. And the blood of those nations is still seething in the veins of today's nations

    Exactly! It is only in Soviet historiography that peoples disappear from nowhere and appear from nowhere, like a devil from a snuffbox. Here is a vivid example of the influence of ideology on history in Soviet times: in the preface to the book "Ancient Türks" LN Gumilyov himself, as if by the way, writes that modern Türkic peoples have no genetic relationship to the ancient Türks, but simply adopted this name!
    1. Beck
      Beck 28 January 2013 13: 44
      +5
      Quote: Nomad
      L. N. Gumilev himself, as it were, writes, by the way, that modern Turkic peoples have no genetic relationship to the ancient Turks, but simply adopted this name!


      Yes. This is one of the few places in the works of Gumilyov with which I do not agree. The very appearance of scientific terms is Slavic languages, Germanic languages ​​appeared only with the advent of real science in the 18-19th century. And Turkic, Slavic languages ​​have been spoken for millennia. Even before the Sloven tribe and before the Turk tribe. Just when the science of linguistics developed, it was necessary to combine related languages ​​into groups, and for the convenience of operating with them, it was necessary to give them names. So they gave names by the names of more famous tribes. There was a Turkic Kaganate, and they gave designations to all related languages ​​- Turkic. With the same success, the Hunnic or Yenisei-Kyrgyz ones could give a definition. And without a kinship it is illogical to give names to language groups. Because it would be absurd to call the Slavic languages ​​Pecheneg languages.

      But the most that I don’t understand in Gumilyov is his theory of passionarity. It appears unknown why, disappears unknown where. Temporary milestones of occurrence or extinction are arbitrary. There are no properties and traits of this passionarity. There is no reason. There are no signs of this passionarity. In general, Gumilev applies this passionarity wherever he wants.
  11. Veteran
    Veteran 28 January 2013 14: 58
    +6
    Quote: Nomad
    There is no paleolinguistic data on the language of Saks (Scythians). Their Iranian language is an unproven statement, which for some reason is taken as an axiom.

    Subjective ignorance of scientific research does not mean their objective absence, although it is impossible to affirm something at 100% in paleolinguistics, as, incidentally, in many other historical branches of knowledge, there will always be a certain degree of probability of the correctness of the statement.
    It is most likely that the Scythian language separated from the Iranian linguistic community at the turn of the XNUMXst millennium BC, belongs to the East Iranian subgroup of Iranian languages, is known from the VIII century BC, the last uses of the language - until the XNUMXth century, i.e. .e. the language belongs to the extinct, to the so-called. "dead languages". This is a generally accepted term. But as a people they are (survivors of the battles, partially displaced to other territories or remaining) dissolved among other nations, and were assimilated by them. The language of the Scythians is considered unwritten, all research has been and is being done on the basis of research in ancient Greek (from Herodotus) and Persian records that convey the phonetic features of Scythian speech. The two largest branches of the Scythians are the European Scythians and the Asian Saki. According to Herodotus, the self-name of the Euroscythians was "chipped".
    The name "Iranian" languages ​​in relation to the more ancient people seems inappropriate, perhaps it would be more correct to use other words instead of Iranians, for example, "steppe Aryans". But the current name of the territory of the state with the main mass linguistic heritage of this group is Iran, therefore, and for brevity - Iranian.
  12. Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 28 January 2013 22: 45
    0
    1) Herodotus, the father of history, wrote about the Scythians:
    "The Scythians blind all their slaves. [They do this] because of milk
    mares, which they drink ... After milking, the milk is poured into hollow wooden vats. Then, having placed blind slaves around the vats, the Scythians order them to shake up the milk. The top layer of settled milk that they skim is valued more highly, and they value skim milk less. That is why they blind all the captives they capture. Scythians are not farmers, but nomads. "(Herodotus. History. Book Four. Melpomene)
    ==
    If we remove the cruel custom of blinding slaves, then in principle we see a typical Turkic food - horse meat and koumiss. The Slavs never indulged in such a meal.
    2) The pointed hats of the royal Scythians still remain in Kazakh women's fashion. Look at the reconstruction of these headdresses and at the still modern Kazakh headdress "saukele".
    3) Ordinary Scythian hats-head-pieces were worn in a fur version by the Kazakhs until the middle of the 20th century.
    4) The lifestyle of the Scythians as a whole is almost completely consistent with the lifestyle of the Eurasian Turkic nomads.
    5) In the modern Kazakh language, a huge layer of words of Scythian Indo-European (Eastern Iranian dialect) origin - aspan (sky), dos (friend), kudai (god), nauryz (vernal equinox holiday), tobe (hill), saule ( sunbeam), nan (bread), demon (number "five"), etc. And these words are not of a late period, but ancient pre-Islamic ones.
    6) After the excavations of the Andronovo settlements of Chaglinka, Atasu, Bugula, where in layers of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries BC. round or multifaceted buildings were opened with frame walls made of vertical poles, with a wattle fence, with a conical or pyramidal ceiling, supported by a frame through which smoke came out, scientists decided the question of the origin of the yurt: the prototype of the yurt was the Andronov’s light round dwelling.
    7) The lands on which the Scythians lived are exactly the same on which the Turkic steppes live. There were no Iranians, Germans or Slavs there and there (with the exception of Goths and Hellenes who did not last long in the steppe). That on the Black Sea coast, in the steppes of Kazakhstan and Russia, until recently, the Turks inextricably lived inextricably, which by and large did not differ from all the ancient descriptions of the Scythians.
    8) The unambiguous continuity of the artistic culture of the Scythians and Turks.
    Etc. etc. Kazakhs are a nation that actually appeared as a result of mixing Scythians-Sakas and Turks. Plus 700 years ago the "last" Turks arrived from their ancestral homeland - present-day Mongolia. The map of haplogroups of Kazakhs is extremely variegated, and shows how different the original ancestors of the Kazakh people were. My father's family belongs to the Huns, and my mother's family belongs to the Scythians. But what the Russians have Scythian - I don't know. They did not drink kumis, did not ride horses on the steppe, did not wear Scythian elements of clothing. But they lived in dugouts near the rivers, wore completely different clothes, ate completely different food, spoke a completely different language, and generally came from the territory of UNSTEPPE Europe, after they were ousted from there by the proto-Germanic tribes. In the culture of the Sarmatians, Savromats and other Scythians, I see a huge number of familiar and understandable details to me, but what the Russians see native there - I don't know. What is the manifestation of cultural inheritance between the Scythians and the Russians? I would be grateful for your answer.
    1. Beck
      Beck 29 January 2013 11: 47
      0
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      The father of history Herodotus wrote about the Scythians:


      Yes, Marek. Your arguments always refer to some arguments of the generally accepted course of history. Which distinguishes adekatnyh people from cheers patriots. I’ll add a few.

      Therefore, the assimilation of the Turks and Indo-Arians, and more or less successful, that their type of management was the same - nomadic. The steppe forced a similar lifestyle, tailoring, consumption of the same food.

      The Indo-Aryans of Andronovo culture, until the 15th century BC, kept cattle near their settlements - hillforts. From the 15th century to the 12th century BC, Andronovites live in ancient settlements, but switch to livestock breeding. These are the sites that archaeologists are digging up today. In Kazakhstan, in the Eastern Trans-Urals, in Southern Siberia, in Central Asia and even in the Swat valley of Pakistan, about 150 have been excavated to date. Among them is Arkaim, which is no different from other Indo-Arian settlements. But which for some reason, cheers-patriots made a fetish of the ancient Slavs.

      From the 12th century BC, Indo-Aryans switched to more efficient nomadic cattle breeding. This is where the images of yurts and tents appear (tents on the wide base of the carts). Since then, the hillforts disappear. Indo-Aryans no longer build them.
      1. AER_69
        AER_69 29 January 2013 15: 20
        +2
        The Aryan race is a pseudoscientific term put forward in the middle of the XNUMXth century by the authors of racial theories and widely used by the German National Socialists.
        Initially, the Aryan race was understood as a subtype of the European race, better known as the "Nordic race" [1]. The term was coined by Joseph Gobino in his Experience on the Inequality of the Human Races (1855). Gobino defined this term as fair-haired and blue-eyed representatives of the white race, whom he regarded as the highest step of this race and, therefore, of all mankind [2].
        Arias (al-Ind. Āryaa-, Avest. Airya-, al-Persian ariya-) - the self-name of the historical peoples of Ancient Iran and Ancient India (II — I millennium BC), who spoke the Aryan languages ​​of the Indo-European family of languages. The linguistic and cultural closeness of these peoples forces researchers to assume the existence of the primordial Aryan community (ancient Aryans), the descendants of which are the historical and modern Aryan, or, as they are also called, Indo-Iranian peoples.
        From this, one thing is clear to me: there are arias, and there are pseudo-arias. Just before the Russians, Western Europeans were engaged in this search for their roots. But everyone knows how the Germans and Slavs love to lie, deceive and engage in dirty deeds ...
        Do not distort the story!
        1. Beck
          Beck 29 January 2013 19: 16
          +2
          Quote: AER_69
          The Aryan race is a pseudoscientific term put forward in the middle of the XNUMXth century by the authors of racial theories and widely used by the German National Socialists.


          I agree with you in the pseudoscience of the term - Aryan race, but do not agree in its interpretation.

          The Indo-European community, between the rivers Danube, Rhine, Volga, at one time was divided into two substrates. Those who remained to the west of the Volga in the future and will give development to such groups as Germans, Slavs, Romans. There, the group that crossed the Volga and settled in the current territories of Kazakhstan, per diem Trans-Urals, southern Siberia, Middle Asia, first in scientific circles, began to be called Indo-European Arians. And this community - Indo-European Aryans is not at all intendual to the pseudoscientific - the Aryan race. Scientifically, such a race does not exist at all. Scientifically, there were tribes of the Indo-European Aryans.

          But in the 19th century in the works of reactionary false historians (the likeness of Fomenkov and others like him) the term arias It was singled out, idelized and attributed in substantiating the colonial, European superiority of some peoples over others. The uneducated Hitler distorted and vulgarized her even more, uniting the Germanic tribes and Aryans into a single one. Calling all this an Aryan superior. Now many people confuse the reactionary, pseudoscientific term Aryan race with the scientific designation of the Indo-European tribes who crossed the Volga, with arias.

          And when today's scholars talk about the resettlement of Aryan peoples, they do not mean Hitler’s Aryan race at all.

          Part of the Aryans of the Andronovo culture, having passed Middle Asia around 2000 BC, was divided into two branches of the Iranoarium and the Indo-Aryan (and this does not mean that they were Germanic tribes). Iranoarians became the ancestors of today's Iranians. Indoar ancestors of the Indians. And they, especially the Indo-Aryans, preserved the epics, legends, hymns, religious attitudes that developed by their ancestors on the territory of South Siberia and Kazakhstan. Here is the path of the Aryan tribes from the steppes of the Black Sea to Iran and India.

          Something like that, in short. To lack format in more detail.
    2. Miha_Skif
      Miha_Skif 29 January 2013 19: 15
      -2
      Marek Rozny
      Many things...
      For example, the Scythian haplogroup R1a1, the Scythian animal style in heraldry (look at the coats of arms of ancient cities), and not only in heraldry, many customs, if we talk about ancient Russia, there was actually a Sarmatian weapons complex, corresponding to the tradition of metalworking, etc. , you can list for a long time.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 30 January 2013 00: 15
        +2
        Micha,
        1) relying only on the haplogroup R1a1 is pointless. This haplogroup is very common. If we consider all the representatives of this haplogroup to be the descendants of the Scythians, then we will have to admit that even Icelanders (in whom every fourth has this haplogroup) and Norwegians (every third) are a "nation of kumis and yurts".
        2) the coats of arms of Russian cities - a remake of the Romanov period. and where you saw the "Scythian style" in the coats of arms of the cities of the Russian Empire is not clear.
        3) what customs of Scythian nomads correspond to Slavic?
        4) Russian armament of the pre-Horde period usually refers to the style of either the Scandinavian or Turkic.
        5) what metal processing traditions of Scythians (Sarmatians, etc.) did you associate with Russians (Slavs)?
        1. Nurius
          Nurius 30 January 2013 10: 54
          0
          Compared with the Kyrgyz and Tajiks, not enough among the Icelanders and Norwegians smile
          But among the Kazakhs, according to the DNA of the project, there are many haplogroups R1a, among the Atigay-Babasyn clan the Argyn tribe (94%) Of the other tribes, Alban (70%) and Jalair (65%) prevail.
        2. Miha_Skif
          Miha_Skif 30 January 2013 11: 29
          +1
          Marek Rozny
          The spread of the haplogroup R1a1 just shows the migration paths of different population groups. And at the same time, a certain center is clearly traced, from where these tribes dispersed (East European Plain, Volga Region, Southern Urals, Northern Kazakhstan ...) Anatoly Klyosov spoke well about DNA genealogy (http://www.lebed.com/2008 /art5375.htm).

          And where did you get the idea that the Scythians are a "nation of kumys and yurts"? The nomadic way of managing is only one of the Scythian inventions. This way of life was ideal for life in the Great Eurasian Steppe (the Mongols still live like this), which is why it became so widespread. At the heart of nomadism is another revolutionary Scythian invention, they were the first to use the horse not just as a domestic animal (for food and as a source of milk), but as a riding animal (invention of the saddle and harness). Hence, as a consequence, the revolution in military affairs (equestrian warrior).
          These are intensive farming methods (irrigated agriculture). Maybe they did not invent this method, but at least adapted it to the arid conditions of Central Asia and, in some places, Southern Siberia. In Altai (near the village of Inya), not so long ago, irrigation ditches were excavated, which are 2,5 thousand years old.

          Metalworking. In addition to developing their own artistic style (which in itself testifies to a high technological level), the Scythians were among the first in the world to use iron (in ancient Greece, the Scythians were called "lords of iron", despite the fact that bronze weapons were used in the Hellenic world). There is a high probability (there is such a hypothesis) that it was the Scythians who developed the method of obtaining iron in the North Caucasus.
          Developed metalworking requires a whole complex. These are ore deposits, and sources of other raw materials, and melting furnaces, and craft centers. All this must be protected from the raids of the neighbors, and all this horde must be fed. Accordingly, an agricultural center, a shopping center, i.e. we get an urban settlement. They are known, for example, Kamenskoe settlement.

          About the rest later smile
        3. RomanK
          RomanK 9 November 2018 13: 10
          0
          "The nation of kumis and yurts" is a masterpiece))). You yourself still live in a yurt and drink kumis? Turks, by the way, do not live in yurts either. Hungarians used to live in yurts and drank kumiss. I mean that clothes, housing and food are dictated not by the "nation", but by the way of life and the environment. If I find myself in the ancient steppe, then I will have to live in a yurt, drink, kumis and eat horses ... even though I am a Slav. But you, I can see, electricity, the Internet, you are unlikely to sit in a yurt, write nonsense on the Internet and drink kumis. Well, what a Scythian you are, you are not even a Turk or a Kazakh ...))) By your own logic.
  13. Veteran
    Veteran 29 January 2013 00: 44
    +5
    Marek Rozny,
    Naturally, the Scythians are not the ancestors of the Eastern Slavs, too different branches. But the long-term mutual contacts of the Slavs with the European Scythians - peaceful and warring - left a mark in the Slavic-Russian language, and in the conduct of the economy, in the field of military affairs. In general, the Slavs adopted a lot from the many nations that they had to deal with, live close by and fight: from the Scythians, and from the Goths, and from the Huns, from the Black Sea and Byzantine Greeks, Khazars, Pechenegs, Polovtsy, etc. But all these peoples have sunk into oblivion, and the Slavs remained enriched with these acquisitions, as well as some inheritance from mixed marriages.
    As for the Andronovo culture of the Bronze Age, it is completely unacceptable to draw it to any modern population (for example, Kazakhstan) in a straight line of continuity. By the end of the Bronze Age, this culture on the territory of Kazakhstan and South Siberia is being replaced by the Karakasuk culture that emerged from its bowels, where Mongoloid forms of the population appear ...
    In general, all fairly large states of Europe and Central Asia cannot claim mono-ethnicity and a direct isolated sequence of the genealogical tree of their population from ancient times (only Caucasian peoples can be an exception), especially after the Great Migration of Peoples at the beginning of the 1st millennium A.D. and subsequent medieval mass migrations. Kazakhstan is no exception, whose direct ethnic state history can really be counted after the collapse of the Golden Horde and the formation of the Kazakh Khanate in 1465.
    1. Beck
      Beck 29 January 2013 12: 57
      +2
      Quote: Veteran
      As for the Andronovo culture of the Bronze Age, it is completely unacceptable to draw it to any modern population (for example, Kazakhstan) in a straight line of continuity. By the end of the Bronze Age, this culture on the territory of Kazakhstan and South Siberia is being replaced by the Karakasuk culture that emerged from its bowels, where Mongoloid forms of the population appear ...


      Acceptable, absolutely acceptable. The Karasuk culture through Okunevskaya rises in the Andronovo culture. On such a large expanse of steppes, it is natural that Andronovo culture was divided into its constituents. She could not be the same throughout the space, until the last stitch on the seam of clothes. And they spoke everywhere not in the same language, but in the dialects and dialects of the Indo-European language of the Aryans. In your opinion, the Novgorod culture of the early Middle Ages is a completely different culture than Kiev culture or Vladimir culture.

      Quote: Veteran
      In general, the Slavs adopted a lot from the many nations they had to deal with, live close by and fight: from the Scythians, and from the Goths, and from the Huns, from the Black Sea and Byzantine Greeks, Khazars, Pechenegs, Polovtsy, etc.


      Here's how to understand it. So you acknowledge that the Slavs have included many nations, and the Turks are denied the same logic. You are inconsistent. Choose one logic. Or all of today's peoples is a mixture of ancient peoples, many of whom have lost their ethnonyms, but live in us with their genes. Or all the ancient peoples have completely cleaned up, and we all appeared suddenly, right from the first division of a single cell.
  14. Beck
    Beck 29 January 2013 14: 03
    +4
    Summarize a few.

    So it happened that the Turkic peoples who lived on their ancestral homeland the steppes of Mongolia and the mountains of Altai, stumbling in the south with the Chinese for about 2-3 centuries, fought with them. Then he became tired and realizing that there are a lot of Chinese, but you can’t feed cattle in rice fields, they turned their expansion to the West.

    They left in several waves.

    First. Turkic Huns in the territory of southeastern Kazakhstan, in the 1st century.

    The second. Huns in the 2nd century to the north of Kazakhstan and the Volga.
    (The subwave that did not give the Turkic-speaking population, but was dissolved in the peoples of Europe. 4th century Hunnu under the Europeanized name of the Huns in Europe)

    The third. Türks of the Türkic Kaganate, in the 5-6 centuries, in the south-west of Kazakhstan and in Wed. Asia, and again to the Volga region and to the Don.

    In these three waves, the Indo-Aryans of Andronovo culture were assimilated.

    Fourth. Oghuz Turks from the south of Kazakhstan and the North of Uzbekistan, under the name of Seljuk Turks in the 10th century, to Afghanistan, Iran, the Baghdad Caliphate, the Caucasus, the Byzantine Empire with the formation, subsequently, of the Ottoman Empire.

    All these four waves were not campaigns of troops, but the movement of Turkic tribes by the whole people. And they advanced so far to the west both because of military skill and valor, and because each battle was, in fact, the last. Indeed, behind were carts with women and children. There was nowhere to retreat.

    Fifth The last wave of Turks from the steppes of Mongolia. Campaigns of Genghis Khan to the West.

    After this, the ancestral home of the Turks, the steppes of Mongolia, was emptied from the Turks themselves. A tribe gradually settled in these steppes. xianbi from Manchuria, due to Khingan, and from the territory of present Inner Mongolia. Syanbi took over the political name - Mongol. Which united the Turkic tribes during the time of Genghis Khan, but after the death of Genghis Khan this political name was abandoned and the tribes returned to their names - Naiman, Kereit and others. In fact, the Turkic tribes of Genghis Khan fought during the conquest of the territory of Kazakhstan with other Turkic tribes - Kypchaks, Argyns and others.

    Syanbi settled the empty lands and took the political name of the Turks - the Mongol, over time, mostly unconsciously, took away the military glory of the Genghis Khan Turks. And now the Mongol arats roam the steppes of the ancestral home of the Turks and examine the incomprehensible Turkic pymen on stone steles and tamgas (tribal signs) on the rocks of Turkic tribes. The Mongol-syanbi themselves have no tamg.

    Of course, this, in the last two paragraphs, is at variance with the incomprehensible, inconsistent moments of today's history, but these inconsistencies and incomprehensions are at least somehow explained by my last two paragraphs. I am ready to provide my more detailed explanations.
  15. Frigate
    Frigate 29 January 2013 19: 21
    0
    Maybe I will cause a volcano of emotions ...

    At the dawn of its greatness, the Principality of Moscow (hereinafter Tsarist Russia) not without reason voiced the term "Mongol-Tatar yoke" to justify territorial expansion and colonial ambitions in the spirit of that era. This justified its own both before the European powers and before the rest of the world.

    What makes you think about a lot? Yes, the very term "Mongol-Tatar yoke"
    from modern History it is known that the father of Genghis Khan was killed by the Tatars, that is, it is some kind of tribe or nationality. They say that modern Tatars have nothing to do with those who killed their father, and that they disappeared already as a generic self-name. That is, this is how the people took it and disappeared completely, yes ??!
    I think after Temirchi (Temuchin) took possession of a large military force, those Tatars began to migrate and run away from sin, further there was contact with Ancient Russia, Russia took close relations with the Tatars and the term "Tatars" in the meaning of " a newcomer, not so or not sedentary, that is, nomadic "and so they began to call all nomads conditionally" Tatars ".
    Through the merchants and travelers of Europe, this word "Tatars" took on a common European meaning: English "Tatars", Welsh "Tatariaid", Hungarian "tatárok", Galician "tártaros", Spanish "tártaros". Changed greatly under the influence of French spelling from Tatars to Tartarus. Hence, you and the Tartars in the old French maps, when the French language was the world language, later the same term is used by English cartographers.
    Genghis Khan is a title, and the real name is Temirchi, Temuchin or Temurdzhin, or Temirzhan. The suffix "Chin" or "Chan" or "Jean" was borrowed by the Turks for a long time from Ancient China, which means "Man". And Temir or Temur means "Iron" from the Turkic language. Taking into account the merger, it will mean "Iron Man" or "Blacksmith" since the Türks worship iron masters, then in those days the "Kuznetsov" clans were like priests, since much depended on them, from the economy to the war.

    About Jews, too, ugly and dishonestly forgotten
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 29 January 2013 19: 38
      +1
      Quote: Frigate
      At the dawn of its greatness, the Principality of Moscow (hereinafter Tsarist Russia) not without reason voiced the term "Mongol-Tatar yoke" to justify territorial expansion and colonial ambitions in the spirit of that era. This justified its own both before the European powers and before the rest of the world.
      The term or phrase "Mongol-Tatar yoke" first appeared in 1817, at the suggestion of a foreigner Kruse hi
      1. Frigate
        Frigate 30 January 2013 08: 34
        0
        Quote: Thunderbolt
        The term or phrase "Mongol-Tatar yoke" first appeared in 1817, at the suggestion of a foreigner Kruse

        I’m talking about this period, dear. After all, the Moscow kingdom became independent by 1700, to Peter. From these times, a new interpretation starts, so that Moscow can embrace the Bashkir Khanate, the Tatar, Crimean and so on
  16. Veteran
    Veteran 29 January 2013 19: 46
    +7
    Quote: Beck
    Acceptable, absolutely acceptable.

    They obviously misunderstood me. I meant that it is impossible to imagine the Kazakh nation as an autochthonous separate, directly emerging from the Andronovo culture. Just as the Nosek Pole presented and claimed for the autochthonousness of the Slavs in Poland, closing the Tshinets culture (the Proto-Slavs of the 15th-12th centuries BC) within the borders of only one Western, Vise-Oder, variant.
    Quote: Beck
    many Slavs

    Yes, they did not accommodate, but adopted part of the vocabulary (our language is replete with "Iranism" and "Turkism", has words of Gothic root origin, etc.), some forms of management, military equipment, tactics of military affairs, rules of trade, and etc.

    About the Slavs of the 1st millennium BC I will refer to B. A. Rybakov:
    “By the time the Scythians arrived in the southern Russian steppes, by the 20th century. BC, the Slavs of the Middle Dnieper region have already traveled a long historical path, reflected both in archaeological materials and in myths and in the heroic epic. The information given by Herodotus about Scythia is extremely important. By Scythia, this writer and traveler understood a huge and conditional space in Eastern Europe, which he defined as a square, each side of which was equal to 700 days of travel (approximately 700xXNUMX km); the southern side of the square rested on the Black Sea. This space is inhabited by different tribes speaking different languages, leading a different economy and not subject to a single king or any hegemonic tribe. The Scythians themselves, who gave the code name to the entire square, were depicted by Herodotus as steppe herders, wandering in wagons, alien to agriculture, not knowing settled settlements. They are opposed by the inhabitants of the forest-steppe Middle Dnieper region - farmers who export grain to Olbia. In relation to these "Dnieper-Borysphenites" Herodotus makes a precious note, saying that the Greeks mistakenly rank them as Scythians, while they have a self-name - "chipped". Archaeological materials explain to us the mistake of the Greek traders, who transferred the common name of the Scythians to the Slavs-Skolots: in the material culture of the Slavic farmers ("Scythian plowmen"), many Scythian features are traced. The long-term proximity of this part of the Slavs with the Scythian-Sarmatian world also affected the language: in the East Slavic languages ​​there are many words of Scythian origin. The social system of the Middle Dnieper Slavs was on the verge of statehood even fifteen hundred years before Kievan Rus. This is evidenced not only by the references to the Skolot “kingdoms” and “kings” by Herodotus, but also by the equestrian features of buried soldiers and huge “royal” burial mounds in the Kiev region, and the imported luxury of the Slavic nobility. In all likelihood, the Slavs of the Middle Dnieper region lived friendly with the royal Scythians of the Black Sea region, which made it possible to bargain with coastal cities and borrow a number of everyday features from the nomadic Scythians. ". If the forest-steppe Slavic tribes of the Skolot-Dnieper received many features of the Scythian culture, then in the forest zone on the northern outskirts of the Slavic ancestral homeland, the Herodotov "neurons" (Milograd archaeological culture) lived next to the Balts, which were in many ways inferior to their southern neighbors "Scythian plowmen" ... The contrast between the level of life of "meaningful glades" and their forest neighbors, "living in a beastly manner," noted by Nestor, originated already in the Scythian time.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 30 January 2013 00: 32
      0
      Here Rybakov is generally right. Ancient historians called all the "barbarians" living beyond the Black Sea "Scythians", although the cultural difference between the Scythian nomads and the Scythian farmers was significant. Perhaps their roots were the same in prehistoric times, but their division into nomads and farmers happened a long time ago. The part of the Scythians that were farmers (chipped) was assimilated by the agricultural peoples of Europe (including the Slavs), and the part that were nomads ("real" Scythians) merged with the same steppe nomads - the Turks.
      And some Russian historians are trying to reckon not only chipped to the Russian genesis, but also nomadic Scythianswho became famous in antiquity for their militancy, in contrast to the farmers.
      The steppe Scythians once built cities, but very soon they realized that in the natural conditions of the Eurasian steppe (which is still called the "zone of risky agriculture"), which inextricably stretches from Mongolia to the Black Sea and Hungary, it is easier and more efficient to engage in distant-pasture animal husbandry than agriculture. ... As a result, the cities were abandoned, the dwellings were modernized to the marching tents, characteristic of all the current Turkic-Mongol peoples, and after a while it turned out that in fact two different branches of the "proto-Scythian" people appeared, which in no way can be mixed into one cultural mass and drawing from this erroneous conclusions about the genetic / cultural connection of the Scythians with the Slavs. If by the word "Scythians" we mean only the agricultural chipped-off - then, yes, that's right - the chipped-off joined the Eastern Slavs.
  17. Veteran
    Veteran 29 January 2013 20: 07
    +5
    In the III century. BC e. the Scythian power in the steppes fell under the onslaught of the more primitive Iranian nomadic Sarmatian tribes. The Scythians turned out to be cut in two by a stream of new nomads: some of them went south, to the Crimea, and some moved to the north, into the forest-steppe, where they were assimilated by the Slavs (maybe it was then that the Scythian words penetrated the Slavic language?).
    The new owners of the steppes - the Sarmatians - behaved completely differently than the Scythians: if the Slavs were more or less peacefully with the Scythians for 500 years, and we have no data on serious hostile actions, then the Sarmatians behaved aggressively. They cut the trade routes, smashed Greek cities, attacked the Slavs and pushed the zone of agricultural villages to the north. "

    Vasnetsov’s painting “The Battle of the Slav with the Scythians” would historically be more real if instead of the Scythians there would be Sarmatians (personal opinion).
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 30 January 2013 00: 50
      +2
      Veteran, you can read more about the Sarmatian-Slavic wars))))
  18. Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 30 January 2013 01: 54
    +3
    By the way, hats of modern Kazakhs:
    a) a portrait of a Kazakh in the Russian army during the war with Napoleon. Artist: Giovanni Cappi, who lived at the beginning of the 19th century:

    b) a portrait of an equestrian Kazakh. beginning of the 19th century:

    c) Kazakh workers at the construction of hydroelectric power stations, the 30s:

    d) photo of the Ospan-Batyr, 40s:

    e) Kazakh Berkutchi, Western Mongolia, 2000s:

    As you can see, if you compare with the Scythian hats, then the cut of the headdresses of the Kazakhs is one to one.

    And this is a Kazakh female headdress - saukele. Dressed on holiday occasions (usually a wedding):
    a) engraving of the first half of the 19th century:

    b) photograph of the late 19th century:

    c) museum exhibit:


    And this is the ceremonial headdress of the Scythians-Saks:
    1. Apollo
      Apollo 30 January 2013 02: 08
      +3
      Marek Rozny
      thanks for the photos hivery informative good
      1. Frigate
        Frigate 30 January 2013 08: 37
        0
        Quote: Apollon

        Thanks for the provided photos very informative

        And then, you thought, of course, informative. I hope even now fans of Fomenko will become less))))) and fans of the series Our Rush will also be less))))
    2. Nurius
      Nurius 30 January 2013 10: 34
      0
      Good illustrations. Can I ask you some information about Kazakh history, there are several questions that interest me and bother me, I can’t find the links, but you see, a person with considerable historical knowledge, preferably in PM?
  19. Cpa
    Cpa 30 January 2013 05: 40
    0
    Let me ask you, where did you get the information about the Turkic Kaganate? I want to read. Genghis Khan is descended from the Mongol tribe Kek-Chonos. He has 750 millions of descendants on earth who mostly do not speak Morgol, so I consider it a mistake to consider the origin by language, here it’s time geneticists and anthropologists work to find out the truth. Otherwise, following the logic of all these historians, the Americans will come up with such a story.
    I would like to add that the Golden Horde went to the west and not Genghis Khan, which united due to the kinship of the khans and the common Turkic language-heritage of Khorezm. I am not a historian, but I have my own view: there are things that peoples keep like the apple of their eye, regardless of the drinking of life-belief , customs, genetics and unique vocabulary. Here are the markers that need to be studied in order to understand who will be whose in terms of ethnic groups. Historians, in my opinion, in the absence of data are engaged in a rough approximation, so such a spread of hypotheses. Tutankhamun and Troy were found by enthusiasts, not "professionals "
    1. Frigate
      Frigate 30 January 2013 08: 44
      +1
      Quote: KPA
      He has 750 million descendants on earth

      Let me ask, where did you get the conviction that there are 750 million Genghisides in the world?

      If you don’t know about the Turkic Khaganate, about the Jewish Khaganate (Khazaria), then I advise you to turn to the textbooks, everything will become clear about the fact that they existed.

      I agree with you about the linguistic analysis, but you can’t only use them, otherwise it will turn out that China, Spain, England existed because it was spoken by both assimilated Native Americans and the assimilated Turkic peoples of China.

      It is necessary to accompany all indicators, and anthropology, and linguistics, and archeology
      1. Cpa
        Cpa 30 January 2013 18: 36
        0
        Nothing of the kind, Frigate, according to my logic, was ironic. Language study is necessary, BUT not with the goal of generalizing how it is done now, but with the goal of revealing the truth. Too many alternative stories have developed, and the official point of view prefers to omit uncomfortable moments , for the sake of completeness, people learn the language most people around speak, or they demand conquerors, clergy, and commerce. There are a lot of language cultures that are left behind, only because the official version does not grow together.
  20. Cpa
    Cpa 30 January 2013 18: 11
    0
    Based on research by Chris Tyler-Smith, 16 million direct descendants live in Asia, the so-called starcluster. Based on genetic markers, scientists from different countries joined the research, as a result it turned out that the descendants of Genghis Khan could be about 200 million people, 750 million relatives close to the descendants (descendants of brothers, etc.). Naturally, the numbers were taken as high as possible It seems that the descendants of Solomon have about the same number. Here is interesting about Genghisides: http: //ca.webtalk.ru/viewtopic.php? id = 32
    Regarding the Turkic Kaganate. I have no doubt about its existence, I wanted to read more about it. I don’t need to take a mentor note and refer to textbooks. I can also refer to textbooks that say that Kazakhs are a kind of Kyrgyz ethnic group, like most Siberian peoples
  21. Veteran
    Veteran 30 January 2013 18: 49
    +4
    Andronovo culture was Indo-Iranian (Aryan). At the very least, it included 4 related cultures that differ in location and time of existence. There is a high probability that the Scythians, including their Saka branch, left the area of ​​this particular culture. However, the Saks could not be the ethnically forming core for the Kazakh ethnos (despite the fact that Iranian-speaking peoples dominated in Central Asia for a long time), the Turkic peoples do not derive their origin from the Iranian-speaking and are not related to them. Since the VI century. part of the Saks, under pressure from the Turkic peoples, went south, where for the most part they settled in Persia and India, another part was assimilated, part migrated to the territory of present-day Azerbaijan and part to Tajikistan. The Kazakh language belongs to the Nogai-Kypchak subgroup (Kypchak group) of the branch of Turkic languages, and ethnic Kazakhs (unlike the Caucasoid "Iranians") have some Mongoloid facial features.
    As for pointed men's hats, the pointed headgear was a distinctive sign of all nomadic peoples from the Danube to Lake Baikal. In Europe and Asia Minor, such caps were first noted among the Cimmerians (though this does not mean that they had not been objectively before), then among the Scythians, Thracians (Thracian (Phrygian) cap), they fall into the European ancient world - to the ancient Greeks, Romans , which meant a free social position of a man, not a slave.
  22. Cpa
    Cpa 30 January 2013 18: 50
    0
    The Turkic Kaganate, it could be like the European Union now, or the British Empire in the 19 century - vast territories, an official language, the official religion of rulers, but there is not much use in determining the origins of ethnic groups. In addition, the 6-7 century is the absence of any records other than oral narration Therefore, a question was asked about the sources. In the textbooks they say that the Slavs lived on trees at that time, excavations say otherwise. And in the textbooks they say that the turning point in the Second World War occurred after the second front was opened. Textbooks are now a political tool.
  23. Veteran
    Veteran 30 January 2013 18: 54
    +5
    The question of the origin of peoples and the question of creating statehood by them are interconnected, but still different, according to the ultimate goal and structural development. There were and there are peoples, and quite ancient, and autochthonous, but never created sovereign states (for example, the Celtic peoples). And vice versa, there are states created not on the basis of ethnicity, but on other, eg religious (Vatican, former Teutonic Order) or other grounds (Monaco, San Marino). The question of the origin of peoples is very complex, and tracing it back centuries is currently problematic, mainly because of the “dashedness” of tracing continuity along the centers of culture and the ways of separation and migration of individual branches, linguistic “overflows”. But one should not get carried away with hypotheses drawn up on the basis of the “nationalist bookmark”, because one can come up with far-fetched incorrect theories that today can be traced in some Turkic-speaking republics, where the former Iranian-speaking Turan (the “country of tours” with the Iranian tribes of the “tour”) has already turned into the mythical Turkic-speaking union Turan-Turkestan (a consequence of the "small-town" pan-Turkism).
    On the issue of creating modern statehood, research analysis is much simpler. For example, everyone knows that among the eastern Slavs, Kievan Rus was the first state entity, from the 9th century. The first Russian sovereign state should be considered the Grand Duchy of Moscow with 1480, the Kazakh - the Kazakh Khanate, created around the same time.
    1. Beck
      Beck 30 January 2013 20: 10
      0
      Quote: Veteran
      where the former Iranian-speaking Turan (the "country of tours" with the Iranian tribes of the "tour") has already turned into a mythical Turkic-speaking union of Turan-Turkestan (a consequence of the "small-town" pan-Turkism).


      If in general terms. Iran is Iran. Turan in antiquity (BC) is the land beyond the Amu Darya. Both there and there were kindred Iranian-speaking peoples. One can say both Russians and Ukrainians. And as always, the neighbors between them had both rivalry to direct hostility, and periods of good neighborliness. Turan as an independent territorial state formation ceased to exist before our era. At the moment, Turan is only the geographical name of the lowland.

      Turkestan (as well as the Turkic Kaganate) is a completely different alignment and a different time, much later. When the Turkic Kaganate was formed in 552, from Khingan to the Volga, then the final conquest and assimilation of the Iranian-speaking Aryans of the south-west of Kazakhstan and Central Asia took place. Then Turan as such was no longer in sight. The southwestern borders of Turkestan passed roughly along the current northern borders of Tajikistan, Afghanistan, and Iran. And Turkestan waged wars with Iran for influence in Central Asia, for the most part successfully.

      In 603, Turkestan was divided into the mountains of the Dzungarian Alatau. To East Turkestan and West Turkestan. Western Turkestan is the territory of Kazakhstan and Wed Of Asia. In 704, Western Turkestan ceased to exist. Subsequently, the territories of Central Asia and southeastern Kazakhstan entrenched in the geographical concept of Turkestan. (at least for the colonial administration of the Russian Empire).

      So no one binds ancient Turan and early medieval Turkestan together. This is not possible in time.

      Therefore, your statements about Turan-Turkestan are really mythical. And on this page of the site, only you are voicing such heresy. My fellow countrymen did not even think about such an abradacabra. And please indicate here on the page who you consider to be a pan-Turkist. And in general, if they say any inadequate about pan-Turkism, then they mean not only Turan-Turkestan.
  24. Veteran
    Veteran 30 January 2013 21: 30
    +5
    [
    Quote: Beck
    only you are voicing such heresy.

    Go on rudeness ... Not good.
    I made the combination “Turan - Turkestan” artificially to increase the absurdity of the truly mythical “Turano-Turkic” simultaneous cultural Central Asian space, both the most ancient monuments of the material culture of Central Asia and outstanding personalities, as some pan-Turkists localize one of the ancestral lands of the Turks there. This is really mythology. Allegedly, the Central Asian “Turan” was settled by Turks from antiquity and opposed the Indo-European “Iran”, when in fact there was a centuries-old confrontation between the Iranians themselves, who were settled and did not accept the new nomadic nomadic system, with the Turans, nomadic Iranians. Epic of this struggle is described in the “Shahnam.” The ancient border between Iran and Turan in ancient times was first the Syr Darya, and in later times the Amu Darya. After a complete military defeat of the Ephthalites in the VI century. the lands of Turan were divided among themselves by Sasanian Iran and the West Turkic Haganate, and from that time the process of settling of Turkic tribes in the lands of Turan began, "Turkestan" appears.
    1. Beck
      Beck 31 January 2013 11: 23
      0
      Quote: Veteran
      Go on rudeness ... Not good.


      If you consider the word heresy to be rude, then excuse me. Again, what does pan-Turkism have to do with it. This, like the Pan-Slavists, is inadequate people. Why are you all drawn to pan-Turkism. And Turan has nothing to do with it. Turan spread geographically in the territory of present-day Uzbekistan and southern Kazakhstan. Here we are talking about the arias of the Andronovo culture that spread to the Trans-Urals, the entire territory of Kazakhstan, Southern Siberia, the current Xinjiang region of the PRC. This is what the statements of the Pan-Turkists about which you say that Turan has been inhabited by Turks and statements of Kazakhstan since ancient times, on this page, that only from the 1st century AD, the steppes of Kazakhstan began to be inhabited by Turkic-speaking tribes. And where does the confrontation between Afrosiab (Turan) and Iran that passed in the first millennium BC. When they fought with each other, the leaders of the Turans sometimes became kings of Iran and vice versa. This is a completely different era. The Turks then had their showdown in the steppes of Mongolia.

      I will repeat it again. The Andronovites could not simply die out and the Turks came to the empty lands. In all conquests, there is a mutual influence of cultures to one degree or another. Among the Turks and Andronovites, this happened to a greater extent. Even if men were destroyed like wars, women in any cases were used for their "direct" purpose.
  25. Veteran
    Veteran 30 January 2013 22: 34
    +5
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    in more detail about the Sarmatian-Slavic wars

    There is no concept of "Sarmatian-Slavic wars." If you mean a picture of Vasnetsov, then this is an artistic fantasy on the theme “Russian heroes”. Ancient Slavic history from the turn of the era to the formation of statehood can be divided into several stages: 1) pre-Venedic (before the 1st century AD), 2) early Venedic (I-II centuries AD), 3) Late Venedic (III- IV centuries), 4) Anta (V-VII centuries). This time was a string of constant large and small clashes in order to protect their own and conquer a new habitat, the assimilation of neighboring ethnic groups. So, at the 2 stage, for the Slavs of the Dnieper region, the main task was, obviously, the fight against the Sarmatians (probably Roksolans) for the preservation of the tribal territory (perhaps in later times the name Roksolan was adopted by the group of Slavic Ants) and the development of the northern regions inhabited by the Baltic tribes. At the same time, the Slavs of the western region conducted constant raids on the tribes of the Thracians and descendants of the Bastarn on the lands of the Middle Dniester, gradually mastering it. The 3 stage (III-IV centuries), undoubtedly one of the most difficult in ancient Slavic history, was filled entirely with the struggle of the Slavs with the Germanic tribes of the Goths, Gepids, and Vandals.
    There are no written sources about the clashes between the Slavs and the Sarmatians (there was no one to write down, and subsequent grandiose events overshadowed all these "trifles"). The first written mentions of the Slavic wars in the Black Sea area appear already on the 3 stage, where we are talking about fighting with the Goths.
  26. Veteran
    Veteran 31 January 2013 21: 12
    +5
    Quote: Beck
    sorry

    “Sorry” is the mocking form of the Russian “sorry”, but oh well, we drove through.
    Quote: Beck
    pan-Turkism. This, like the Pan-Slavists, is inadequate people.

    I agree that all “pantheories” are not related to real science. But they have one peculiarity: first, the goal is set that they want to achieve, then all relevant convenient artifacts and events are adjusted as evidence, and uncomfortable and contradictory ones are hushed up or falsified.
    Quote: Veteran
    you are all drawn to pan-Turkism.

    I do not draw to pan-Turkism, but try, as an example of the realization of his ideas, to warn against hasty conclusions on the very complex issue of the origin of modern peoples. Therefore, an example was given with Turan (by the way, you don’t know why Turkic-speaking Azerbaijan has a state news agency called “Turan”?). Artifacts of ancient peoples found on the territory of modern states, of course, are a national treasure of these countries. But this does not mean that, on the basis of this, it is possible to directly build a direct connection of the current ethnic group of the state with the ancient peoples who once territorially inhabited this territory, and represent it as a direct and immediate gene successor and ethnogenic core of the country's modern population. And then we get to the assertion that modern Ukrainians are direct descendants of the ancient ancient Greeks, based on artifacts of the Northern Black Sea region.

    Quote: Beck
    Afrosiab (Turana)

    Afrasiab (Afrosiab) - this is 1) man - the legendary ruler of Turan, 2) the ruins of the ancient settlement named after him. Turan (from the mythical Iranian Tour) - the country (or rather the land) of the Eastern Iranian peoples (unlike Iran - the state of the Western Iranian peoples), was politically fragmented between the states of Sogd, Bactria, Khorezm and the Iranian-speaking steppes of the Saks, Sarmatians, Yuezha and others. Turans initially (by the beginning of the 1st millennium BC) the local settled population was called the Scythians, but very soon they began to be called Saks. Since the time of the Achaemenids, the Iranians have called Turan the lands north of the Syr Darya and roughly the corresponding territories of present-day Central Asia. Subsequently, the conditional border shifts to the south, to the line of the Amu Darya.
    Quote: Beck
    Then Turan as such was no longer in sight.

    The concept of Turan as a land country has been retained for a long time, right up to the beginning of the 20th century. In the Middle Ages, this name was called the Amu-Syr Darya interfluve (in parallel with Maverannahr), and Timur in the XIV century. calls himself the "Sultan of Turan."
    Quote: Beck
    passed in the first millennium BC

    Iran’s struggle with Turan was centuries-old, and took place not only in the era of the Achaemenids, but also under the Sassanids, when the largest conquests of Eranshahr of the Turan territory reached the Syr Darya line.
    Quote: Beck
    The Turks then had their showdown in the steppes of Mongolia.

    Did I talk about the Turkic showdowns? I had in mind the struggle of some Iranians with others - in fact Iran and Turan.
    1. Beck
      Beck 1 February 2013 11: 51
      0
      Quote: Veteran
      “Sorry” is the mocking form of the Russian “sorry”, but oh well, we drove through.


      Well, I didn’t. Sincerely - I apologize.

      And confused with Afrosiab. And the name Turan remains until the 20th century, but not as a state entity, but as a geographical concept.
  27. Veteran
    Veteran 31 January 2013 21: 31
    +5
    Quote: Beck
    Andronovites could not simply die out

    And who claims this? In any case, not me. Any major culture sooner or later began the migration of its population, transformed into other centers with further improvement of the economy, unless it was destroyed by a military invasion, which could be destructive, including through fire, not only for men, but also for women. This did not happen with the Andronovo culture. There are many foci of subsequent cultures from it.
    Quote: Beck
    Among the Turks and Andronovites this happened to a greater extent.

    And where did you divide the Saks, immigrants from the Andronovo culture?
    Mass settlement by Turks of the territory of Turan began in the VI century. K X century. finally disappears Indo-Iranian (Indo-Aryan, Scythian) language. Nowadays, the ethnic core of the Kazakh people is composed mainly of Turkic tribes: the Kanles (senior zhuz), in addition, who massively settled Maverannahr (the southern region of Turan) in the 10th century .; Uysyns mixed with the Huns (senior zhuz); jalayyry (senior zhuz) - possibly Turks, possibly of the Mongolian branch, etc.
    1. Beck
      Beck 1 February 2013 12: 21
      0
      Quote: Veteran
      There are many foci of subsequent cultures from it.


      So I never said that a cross between the Turks and the Andronovites preserved the Andronovo culture. After assimilation, a cross between tribes no longer began to produce works of art in the "animal" style. She did not accept Zoroastrianism as such, leaving only Navruz. They refused the burial mounds. But a lot of Iranian-Saki words were introduced into the Turkic language, some elements of clothing were adopted. In addition to black Turks, redheads, blondes, with gray, blue eyes appeared in the cross. And this assimilation initially began on the Yenisei, the northern foothills of Altai, the Xinjiang region of the PRC. And then it moved on to South-East and North Kazakhstan. And with new waves of Turkic migrations (Turkic Kaganate), new Turkic blood was poured into this Saka-Turkic cross. Therefore, red-haired and blue-eyed people are a minority among the true Turks.

      The Saks entered the Anlon culture as well as the Massagets, Sarmatians, Ephthalites, Yuzhen, and other Andron tribes.

      The first mass settlements of the territory of Kazakhstan began with the Turkic-speaking Huns in the 1st century. Due to strife, some of the Huns moved to Xinjian and Southeast Kazakhstan. In the 2nd century, another part of the Huns was in Northern Kazakhstan and the Volga region. And in the 6th century, the Turks were again in Kazakhstan and for the first time in South-Western Kazakhstan and Central Asia.

      Zhuzes are later formations in the steppe. They, at the 1-6 centuries, generally should not be taken into account.

      Now the basis of the Kazakh people is about 30 tribes. In turn, formed from a mixture of Turkic-Andronov tribes.

      And Mongolian blood is present in the Turks, but they were neighbors, as without this. Especially a lot of Mongolian blood was poured during the hundred-year-old steppe war between Kazakhs and Dzungars in the 17th century. And it was not so much from forced assimilation as from the steppe customs. It was easier for Dzhungar, a Kazakh, in order not to pay kalym for the bride, to capture a Kazakh woman or a dzhungarka on the raid and bring him home as a wife. And not always the first, but the second and third.
  28. Veteran
    Veteran 1 February 2013 18: 14
    +5
    Quote: Beck
    Zhuzes are later formations in the steppe. They, at the 1-6 centuries, generally should not be taken into account.

    So I mentioned them in the text about the later tribes.
    But the Saks still for the most part went south, and settled in Persia, India, and other places. But some part was assimilated.
    On the whole, your last comment evokes a feeling of, as previously said, "deep satisfaction". There are no objections, there is a sense of respect for the author. Thanks.