Military Review

Returning to the beginning of World War II

297
When studying materials about the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945, it is not difficult to see that most historians consider the first months of this confrontation as a terrible catastrophe, which occurred mainly due to the fault of the Soviet leadership. The indifference and lack of due attention to the warnings about a possible German attack, the illiterate organization of measures to counter the aggressor troops and many other missteps, which the Germans, according to experts, managed to move so rapidly into the country for several months.

Returning to the beginning of World War II
Soviet Tanks BT-7 abandoned by the Red Army due to the impossibility of evacuation


In modern textbooks on stories The main reasons for the failure of the Red Army in the first stage of the war are also the low moral and political readiness of Soviet soldiers and an extremely small percentage of experienced officers of any level in the army, because many of them were shot during the Stalinist purges. The commanders who replaced them often did not even have a general education, let alone a military one.
To stop the mass desertion and surrender, to restore the combat capability of the Soviet army, Stalin managed only with mass executions and threats to kill the members of the families of the fighters.


History is written by people, and therefore quite often it is subjective. Practically all the books and stories about that terrible war were written under the control of the “upper echelons”, which did not allow sufficiently objectively to cover the events that had occurred, for the truth was contrary to the point of view of the personalities at the helm of the country. Meanwhile, a completely different opinion appeared today, according to which, even before the start of the war, the Soviet government, together with the highest army command, worked out certain measures, which later allowed the German forces advancing to stop and give due repulse to the offensive in all directions and win the war. Supporters of this point of view accuse the adherents of the “theory of catastrophe” of excessively politicizing events and suggest abstracting from specific names, looking at the situation that arose at the beginning of the German attack, “without faces”.

The situation at that time could be represented as follows. In the military confrontation came together two great forces. Their capabilities, including the availability of trained human resources, high-tech military equipment and trained commanders, are comparable. True, one of them already has vast experience in conducting combat operations, the industrial potential of the occupied territories, troops mobilized and concentrated in the right place. How will events develop if this country attacks another, trying to crush an opponent with lightning-fast and decisive action? It is unlikely that anyone will seriously expect that the attacked side, having tightened their strength, will smash the impudent aggressor in the first weeks or months of the war. More logical would be the version of the feasible deterrence of the attacking forces with the simultaneous deployment of military facilities and the phased training of army units outside the battle zone.

According to Western researchers, the economic, military, and human potential of the USSR exceeded the capabilities of Germany, including its allies. The war industry of the Soviet Union produced more aircraft and tanks, and natural resources were many times richer. Even the loss of a number of territories in the country at the beginning of World War II did not change anything.


Events between the USSR and Germany developed similarly to the above. It is unclear what supernatural forces the Soviet Union should have applied to immediately destroy the Germans. Now many are of the opinion that the first months of the Great Patriotic War turned into a terrible failure and catastrophe for us. The further the events of those years become, the more this war is covered as two events torn in time: the 1941 fiasco and the victory of 1945. Previously, heroic events related to the defense of the hero-cities took a well-deserved place in this period, laying the foundation for future victories and being one of the brightest pages of our history. Today, all references to them have faded into the background, giving way to condemning the initial miscalculations and defeats, replaced by which suddenly a great victory came from nowhere.

If we recall the long-term events of the 1812 war of the year, then when describing the retreat of the Russian troops and the surrender of Moscow to the French, for some reason the emphasis is not placed on the mistakes and mistakes of the government, and the Russian generals are not accused of negligence and incompetence. When German troops unexpectedly attacked France in the First World War, they managed to reach the capital in a short period. Few of the French were looking for the guilty in the offices of power. All a priori admitted the guilt of the attacking side, who had a clear advantage and who used the element of surprise when attacking through Belgium.
Supporters of the new theory believe that the counting of military equipment in the first days of the war is insufficient, since it is only weaponrun by people. The main criterion for the balance of forces from their point of view is the number of personnel of the troops. Germany attacked the Soviet Union, having more than five million soldiers against a two millionth contingent of Soviet troops located in the western part of the country. By the summer of 1941, the German troops had already gained considerable military experience, having achieved brilliant victories and crushing almost all of Europe under them. What could the Red Army have opposed to it in the first days of the fighting if universal military service was introduced in the USSR two and a half years before the start of the war?

The situation around the state of our units in the border districts at the time of the attack of the German troops is very controversial. Stalin’s confidence that Hitler will not dare to break the non-aggression pact in the summer of 1941 is well known. Therefore, Joseph Vissarionovich forbade taking any action that could be the reason for the outbreak of war. However, a number of experts claim that 18 on June 1941 of the year Zhukov sent telegrams to the commanders of five western districts about the possibility of an attack by Germany and an indication to bring the entrusted troops to full alert. Military historian Alexey Isaev says that only some units located near the border did not have time to react. The statement that the Germans found the Soviet soldiers sleeping is a myth. Numerous testimonies of the surviving Germans confirm that already in the first hours of the war the border fortifications and covering armies gave them a fierce rebuff.


Two abandoned Soviet heavy tank KV-2. The towers are deployed to the marching position, the machine guns are removed: the tanks are clearly abandoned due to malfunctions or lack of fuel during retreat


Based on the situation that arose after the perfidious attack, the Soviet army tried to withstand the onslaught of the enemy by all the available forces. From the very first days, Hitler’s command plans for a blitzkrieg were completely destroyed. The Germans did not succeed in overthrowing the South-Western Front, which, although it was retreating with battles, was slowly and clearly retaining its main forces. Later, Hitler's troops were briefly stopped near Smolensk. Yes, our troops lost this bloody battle, but the delay in the offensive mixed the cards to the aggressor. Participating in the battles near Smolensk, the Army Group Center could not immediately advance to the capital, as it had an open right flank. I had to spend the valuable time again on regrouping forces, leaving part of the troops under Kiev. As a result, the German offensive on Moscow took place much more later than the German command expected. And the Red Army received the necessary time for the preparation and concentration of troops. The balance of forces, finally, the ensuing attack by the bloodless fascists on the capital was already completely different. By this time, the Soviet Union had already deployed its military machine, which turned out to be enough to not only win the main battle of the war, but also to switch to a counter-offensive later.
According to the memoirs of the fascist prisoners, the results of the first battles, despite the successes, involuntarily made them think. The war on Soviet soil turned out to be very different from the war in the West. Parts of the Red Army were upset, disorganized, defeated after defeat and retreating, but despite everything that usually happened in other countries, the strength of their resistance not only did not decrease, but only increased.


But such a development has already taken place during the Patriotic War of the 1812 year, and during the French-German confrontation in the First World War. At the initial stage, the attacked troops had to, while losing battles, retreat into the interior of the country in order to later confidently win the whole war. It was only important to resist, to maintain the backbone of the army. And the time they received at the expense of deterring the enemy’s forces and temporary retreat was spent on the deployment and buildup of military power. Perhaps that was exactly what the Soviet command decided to do, paying a high price to gain strength for further successful warfare.

A widespread fiction is a statement about the destruction in the first hours of the war of practically the entire Soviet military aviationnot having time to take off from airfields. Indeed, a massive bombing of a number of air units was undertaken, and the number of attacks on some air bases reached seven to eight times, as a result of which they were badly damaged. However, the defeat did not happen, most of the aircraft retained their combat effectiveness, and the further losses of the pilots were associated with defeats in air battles.


It is not known what was going on in the minds of the German soldiers after they, having lost the battle near Moscow, were driven away from our capital, but the war turned into a lingering form advantageous to the anti-Hitler coalition. And after the opening of the Second Front, the victory of Germany became practically unattainable. The death of all the victorious Wehrmacht troops was only a matter of time.

There is a widespread theory of the plan for the invasion of Soviet troops in Western Europe, prepared by Stalin in the context of the strictest secrecy. According to this, the fascist troops simply outstripped the Soviet Union, counterattacking literally at the last moment. Without trying to confirm or disprove this statement, it is worth paying attention to specific historical facts indicating that in the event of an attack, the command of the Red Army did not expect to stop the Germans right on the border. The fact that there were some other plans is evidenced by actions aimed at systematically evacuating industry from the border area to the interior of the country, which allowed more large industrial enterprises to be transported to the rear of 1360, which then supplied the necessary equipment and weapons for the country's needs. Particularly noteworthy is the export of even such large equipment as turbine units for power plants, which made it possible to provide the necessary power supply for new production facilities deployed in the Urals and Siberia. Even before the war, additional branches of railway tracks were prepared for evacuation, and in the depth of the country platforms for the future location of evacuated enterprises were built. Of course, this goes against Soviet propaganda, but you can't raise the morale of soldiers and civilians by telling them that the border areas are condemned to prolonged occupation. It was thanks to the measures taken for several years ahead of time that the main tasks were accomplished, which the USSR leadership at the first stage of the war probably set for itself: to preserve production facilities and to start work of evacuated enterprises at a new place in optimal time.

The operational plans of the Soviet General Staff on preparing the attack on fascist Germany have not yet been declassified, but their meaning and goals can be traced to some extent in the secret report Commissar of Defense sent to Stalin in the summer of 1940: “On the fundamentals of the strategic deployment of the USSR Armed Forces in the West and in the East , Which was published in Russia in the 90s.


Some experts, using the results of the analysis of the numerical comparison of certain types of weapons, as well as the widely reported information that the Soviet Union was aware of the attack and was preparing for it, are trying to shift the blame of the first military setbacks on the country's leadership. It is difficult to judge who really missed and overlooked the real intentions of the Nazis, naively believed Hitler. But to say that during the first months of the war there was a terrible catastrophe, and even more so to blame someone for the lost battles, at least, unreasonably. The tragedy was only that the fascist leadership decided to attack the USSR, unleashing the bloodiest war in the history of our people. The Germans managed to achieve significant operational and one-time successes, but in general, they lost the initial period of the war, because the goals set by the command were not achieved, according to which by the fall the war should have ended in an unconditional victory for Germany. It is impossible to present the first months of the Great Patriotic War as our greatest shame. You can not separate them from the rest of the war period, as an event that is not a guarantee of further success. Successes, which are mistaken only for national achievement, contrary to the mediocre leadership of the Stalinist elite.

Even those who have at least a remote understanding of the tactics and order of warfare, it is very difficult to imagine how the masses, who do not have military experience and knowledge, could form divisions themselves, develop plans for combat operations and produce the necessary types of weapons. At the same time, the government did not just calmly look at the “heroic attempts” of its people, but tried by its actions to prevent it. Any sane person will not be able to take such information seriously, and meanwhile, documentaries and even very famous feature films are made on the basis of such plots. Such views on World War II were not born in the West, although, perhaps, with their support. Propaganda is carried out by domestic cultural figures, journalists and politicians.

Of course, Western works on war also consider temporary failures of the Soviet troops. However, from their point of view, this is not a terrible humiliation of the Soviet military machine and terrible miscalculations of command. On the contrary, in the articles of foreign historians, there is a perception that only Hitler made a catastrophic mistake, in fact signing the verdict with his own hand to his belligerent power by attacking the USSR. You can find information that in the first months of the war, Western observers fearfully stated that their worst fears, that Germany would succeed in taking possession of the USSR, were as easy as other countries begin to gain ground. But the more events developed, the louder the voices became that expressed the hope that the Red Army would become that liberating force that could cleanse the world of fascism. And they were not mistaken. Reaching the winter only to Moscow, the German troops lost their superiority, the initiative was, albeit temporarily, intercepted by our army, and hopes of victory remained only the dreams of the Wehrmacht generals.
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  1. Sakhalininsk
    Sakhalininsk 17 January 2013 09: 28
    +39
    Probably only in our country it is common to engage in self-discipline in a particularly perverted form. Yes, the USSR started the war with Germany unsuccessfully, but nevertheless in 1941 it was possible to remove the most important enterprises from the occupied territories, and the losses were great, but Germany also suffered serious losses, and in general as a result of the war it was our army that took Berlin thereby destroying fascist Germany , which for some two years crushed the whole of Europe.
    But the most important thing is that the winners are not judged!
    1. omsbon
      omsbon 17 January 2013 11: 00
      +14
      I agree with Sakhalin, the constant sprinkling of ashes on the head does not lead to anything good. Negative, he is good for liberal rot, accustomed only to fault their homeland.
      1. vyatom
        vyatom 17 January 2013 14: 01
        +3
        They told the little one, the shiklgruber with the shot eggs, not to go to Russia. So no. Useful. And I got it in full. I hope the current and future generation of Germans (and other hot heads) will remember this and pursue an exclusively peaceful policy with us.
        1. VARCHUN
          VARCHUN 24 October 2013 02: 11
          0
          Do not forget then the USSR, now everyone for himself, does not resemble the historical fact about the principalities in Russia? And what happened then.
      2. dentitov
        dentitov 18 January 2013 21: 32
        0
        In this regard, the fight between Medinsky and Latynina on the "Echo of Moscow" is indicative, when the professor crushed with mind and facts this red-haired, corrupt nit.
      3. dentitov
        dentitov 18 January 2013 21: 35
        +2
        omsbon,
        In this regard, the fight between Medinsky and Latynina on the "Echo of Moscow" is indicative, when the professor crushed with mind and facts this red-haired, corrupt nit.
    2. rexby63
      rexby63 17 January 2013 13: 33
      +9
      More precisely, there can be no question of any court. It is not for us, their descendants, let alone overseas "historians" to judge those great people
    3. Nuar
      Nuar 17 January 2013 14: 26
      +4
      Quote: Sakhalininets
      Probably only in our country it is common to engage in self-discipline in a particularly perverted form.
      liberal fools are everywhere (and were at all times, only called differently).

      Just after the collapse of the Union, these creatures managed to capture SMRAD (former media, thanks Onotola) and now they are dripping on our heads ...
      1. aleks
        aleks 18 January 2013 13: 13
        +2
        it is necessary to call the authors, perverts of history, in this case, they are possible to subside. All these mlechins are swanidze cowards and looters.
        1. VARCHUN
          VARCHUN 24 October 2013 02: 14
          0
          And what has Suvorov already forgotten? This scribe of the ex-Chekist.
    4. neri73-r
      neri73-r 17 January 2013 14: 43
      +3
      But the most important thing is that the winners are not judged!


      unfortunately they are trying, even very much trying to judge and equate us with the Nazis !!! Moreover, a significant contribution to this is made by our compatriots, if you can call them that, who are essentially common people and "people of the world", and in short - the scum of our society, the creative class, liberals and democrats.
    5. Evrepid
      Evrepid 17 January 2013 16: 37
      +1
      Looking at how Germany lives and how you live in the former USSR, you wonder if we really won the war?

      Victory was stolen from our people, I think, and still steal piece by piece ...
      1. solodova
        solodova 18 January 2013 13: 09
        +3
        THAT war was not won by us. Our grandfathers won. What they fought for, we are losing, we give up position after position. Already to another enemy, through internal traitors, and "legitimately", according to the law.

        I wish that in the end, as in that war, we at least at the last moment would stop retreating.

        But TA victory must be inviolable. They shed too much blood so that we, behind our clocks and monitors, would have the right to "down" talk about THEIR VICTORY.
    6. Ross
      Ross 17 January 2013 21: 14
      +1
      Sakhalininsk,
      Failures of the initial period - it is impossible to explain blaming only the leadership of the country.
    7. igor.borov775
      igor.borov775 18 January 2013 14: 21
      +1
      The article is about nothing so simple about everything. For such an article, it was necessary to publish a scientific and military conference before, Before it began, thousands of officers were interviewed who met the war in the border districts, The capabilities of the entire industry were tested in detail, and there all the capabilities of the army were checked the first days of the war, Especially the German documents of those days were already known, Of course there were mistakes in the country's defense Ministry, there were mistakes in the Defense Ministry, But most importantly, in any defensive battle, we lost both the territory and most of our troops, The first most difficult days are our army was able to do what not a single army of Europe could do, We not only defended but also struck the Germans, besides substantial, considered all the options for starting a war, even those that would never have been accepted, options, And most importantly, German troops had vast experience in waging war for superiority in technology, Whatever they wrote is an indisputable fact, In 1945, on August 8, we declared war on Japan and its troops ka also had a tremendous experience of war, Exactly after 24 hours our army started the war, You know the result, And the losses of the Japanese were much more modest, And the Japanese troops were ready, Even the weather helped them, The troops moved right after the typhoon, See the chronicles dirt is not prolific tanks stuck
      1. Skavron
        Skavron 18 January 2013 22: 03
        0
        Quote: igor.borov775
        And most importantly, German troops had a huge experience of warfare multiplied by superiority in technology, so that they would not write this indisputable fact

        This is not a fact ... this is your stupidity
        1. washi
          washi 26 January 2013 17: 23
          0
          given the level of education - this is a fact. if for the Wehrmacht SVT was considered the best rifle, and the Red Army threw it because of malfunctions. It says something
      2. washi
        washi 26 January 2013 17: 16
        0
        and the comment is not about anything. I understand that you can talk a lot and about nothing. While the Costa ships plow the expanses of heaven, some of our comrades deny the presence of traitors and egoists among the command staff, as well as party and Komsomol workers
    8. dentitov
      dentitov 18 January 2013 21: 31
      0
      This is a striking feature of our mentality. And there is a worship of foreigners (and not only the West, but also the East) and the desire to obscure a compatriot in shit if he made a mistake. How many slops were poured on the same Fedor Emelianenko when he lost 3 fights in a row. The mind is incomprehensible!
    9. tomket
      tomket 19 January 2013 08: 52
      +1
      I wonder why in the West they don’t sprinkle ashes on the occasion, letting Filipin for example in 1942, Burma, Malaya, because the allies had an advantage in manpower and equipment, and General MacArthur was not demonized like Zhukov, for example. or the example of aviation in Pearl Harbor, after the defeat, no one would turn their tongue to say that all of America was left without aviation, but the Pacific theater of operations really was a complete rout! so you have to separate the flies from the cutlets!
  2. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 09: 38
    +1
    In 1937, they probably didn’t shoot a lot because of this and got the summer of 1941. Just kidding, on the contrary, of course.
  3. borisst64
    borisst64 17 January 2013 09: 45
    -6
    There is no doubt that there was a betrayal of the top military leadership, Pavlov’s treason was practically proved, and how many more documents were classified. By the way, KV-2 tanks with a 152 mm cannon did not fire a single shot in battles with the Germans, all shells were stored in warehouses 300 km from the border.
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 17 January 2013 10: 02
      +15
      borisst64
      By the way, KV-2 tanks with a 152 mm cannon did not fire a single shot in battle ...

      From the order of 24.06.41.

      "ZHUKOV. The 152-mm KV guns fire projectiles from 09-30, so order immediate delivery of concrete-piercing shells from 09-30. and use them. You’ll hit the enemy’s tanks with might and main
      Read through a Google search about Rasseiniai KV-2.
      This is the Baltic states.
      On the South-Western Front, about the use of KV-2 you can read Popel (8 MK).
      1. core
        core 17 January 2013 12: 26
        +6
        the German boxes didn’t care what152 mm shell (concrete or high-explosive) she would get a square, one result. there’s nothing left of the box.
  4. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 09: 49
    -28
    Quote: borisst64
    Pavlov’s treason has been practically proven, and how many more documents are classified

    on the contrary, it’s proved practical it IS NOT CHANGE. So, sir, alas, erect a slap on Pavlov. Who is to blame for the whole of summer 1941 is the leader and teacher.
    1. Lantau
      Lantau 17 January 2013 10: 11
      +3
      And what exactly is the leader and teacher to blame for?
    2. Poppy
      Poppy 17 January 2013 11: 35
      +10
      betrayal is proven, did not lead the troops into combat training, despite a direct order from Moscow
      1. Nuar
        Nuar 17 January 2013 14: 32
        +9
        Quote: Poppy
        did not bring troops into combat readiness
        he also violated the orders of dispersal and disguise. He also allowed the breakdown of communication lines and supplied the Headquarters with deliberately false information (without communication with the troops, he did not know their real position / location, but he always gave clear answers to the Headquarters requests, just inventing them (the ass should be closed)

        That's only in 1991 (if I'm not mistaken), joy Volkhfor some reason he (the commander) re-fired.
  5. 8 company
    8 company 17 January 2013 10: 03
    -19
    The leader did not believe in the possibility of an attack, because he was always right. Whoever doubted it never doubted anything anymore. In principle, the leader had reason to think so, because it was difficult to assume that Germany would again get into the war on 2 fronts. But the worst thing is not this, but the fact that at the head of the Red Army were, as today's youth say, "noobs" or "fuckers". Even after the attack, they illiterately assessed the situation, led the troops incorrectly, so all seemingly powerful counterattacks against the Germans failed with catastrophic losses. In order for the pros to come to the leadership of the troops, they had to fight for a year and a half and incur heavy losses of people and resources.
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 17 January 2013 10: 14
      +4
      8 company
      The leader did not believe in the possibility of an attack, because he was always right ...

      Not in this case. The number of concentrated Wehrmacht compounds on the western border of the USSR was calculated almost exactly. But, they made a mistake in the GENERAL estimate of the number of Wehrmacht compounds. That is, they were overstated.
      From this they made the wrong conclusion - the concentration is not over yet.
    2. The centurion
      The centurion 17 January 2013 10: 53
      +8
      Quote: Company 8
      In order for the pros to come to the leadership of the troops, they had to fight for a year and a half and suffer heavy losses of people and resources.

      As far as I remember, the same generals commanded both in 41 and 45, only very different. Not yet broken in 41, but already broken in 45. And as you know for one broken 2-x unbeaten give.
    3. Kubanets
      Kubanets 17 January 2013 11: 14
      +13
      Don't generalize. "Fuckers" is, in your opinion, of course Voroshilov, Budyonny, Timoshenko. And Vasilevsky, Vatutin, Shtemenko at that time "commanded companies"? It's not about personalities. Refer to Halder's diaries for the initial period of WWII
      ... In the actions of the troops of the same Budyonny, Halder sees neither "loshism" or "nubism". The enemy was really very strong, experienced and literate
      1. 8 company
        8 company 17 January 2013 12: 19
        -4
        Quote: Kubanets
        ... In the actions of the troops of the same Budyonny, Halder sees neither "loshism" or "nubism".


        Do not tell everyone about the crushing victories over the Wehrmacht won by the troops under the command of Budyonny? I think it will be interesting.
        1. Kubanets
          Kubanets 17 January 2013 12: 39
          +3
          I won’t say anything crushing. Nobody had such at that time of the war. But there were tactical ones. Kiev defense Odessa defense Sevatopol defense Kerch-Feodossky landing operation. Everything under Budyonny as the commander-in-chief of the South-West direction or as in the last example of the North Caucasus front
          1. 8 company
            8 company 17 January 2013 12: 58
            -6
            Quote: Kubanets
            last example com SevKav front


            Well? I push you to an elementary conclusion: if Budyonny was removed from the commanders after his "crushing tactical successes", then ...
            1. Kubanets
              Kubanets 17 January 2013 13: 55
              +13
              Removed, if you remember for a principled position on the issue of defense or abandonment of Kiev. Against the backdrop of defeats, 41 personnel movements are not surprising. Well, Stalin did not have the Hindenburgs at that time. And the conclusions? Not demoted as for example Kulik. Position? The commander of the cavalry of the Red Army. There are no visible claims of the country's leadership. And you should not make obscurantism and the near military commander of Semyon Mikhailovich. Unlike the genius Tukhachevsky, he did not consider it shameful for himself to graduate from the General Staff Academy
              1. 8 company
                8 company 17 January 2013 14: 51
                -6
                Quote: Kubanets
                And do not make Semyon Mikhailovich obscurantism and the near military commander. Unlike the genius Tukhachevsky, he did not consider it shameful for him to graduate from the General Staff Academy


                He is not obscurantist, he simply did not pull the WWII and was sent to command the horsemen, as you correctly noted. By the way, the General Staff Academy was created precisely by Tukhachevsky, for this reason most of the lectures in 1937-38 were destroyed.
                1. Kubanets
                  Kubanets 17 January 2013 20: 47
                  +2
                  The General Staff Academy is not created by the General Staff of a particular state, but only by the presence of a trained officer corps (Clausewitz}
            2. Zynaps
              Zynaps 17 January 2013 21: 06
              +5
              the political officer who taught tactics using a pack of "Belomor" is back in the attack.

              Budyonny’s failures do not say anything at all. to find the guilty in a state of a constantly collapsing front is a nonsense. it’s very hard to defend. the initiative belongs to the enemy, only he knows the direction of the main blow. the defender can only stretch the troops along the front and painfully figure out where the gap will be.

              Citizen Zampolliter, in fact, until the summer of 1943, there were no specialists in the world to counteract the German blitzkrieg, especially in the most effective way - the summer version. even among the Germans themselves, among the unconditional masters of defense there was only one specialist - the Model.

              it’s very easy to drive Budyonny and Voroshilov, especially having read off the huddle and having looked around to the stoobnik, perestroika-perestroika shYta. In fact, Budyonny and Voroshilov would have found a place in the tank units, built in the image of the German beginning of the war, because
              it was they who had experience of deep breakthroughs and outbreaks. but those of lack of experience and poverty did not exist. they actually formed only in 1943, after the Kursk Bulge and crossing the Dnieper.

              especially for half-laborers I inform you that the outstanding German Blitzkrieg commanders themselves came out mainly from the cavalry. and nothing - coped. and ours would have done it, if at the beginning of the war they had the connections and experience of two years of mobile victorious war. Well, you’re an expert - I suppose the computer isn’t just like Hitler Germany, but you are smashing galactic adversaries as well.

              already read the book of a collective of historians "1941 - Lessons and Conclusions" - everything is well chewed with documents and maps.
              1. Kubanets
                Kubanets 17 January 2013 23: 55
                +4
                zenaps agree with you They did what they could with the available capabilities. And blaming all the blame on them is unworthy
          2. tomket
            tomket 19 January 2013 15: 28
            0
            Budyonny demanded to withdraw troops from Kiev, and Kirponos assured Stalin that everything was in order, as a result, Budyonny was accused of panic, and Kirponos died ingloriously.
        2. cth; fyn
          cth; fyn 17 January 2013 13: 42
          +4
          so then his cavalry was robustly inserted into the rear of German tank units until it ran into the tanks themselves.
          1. Kubanets
            Kubanets 17 January 2013 14: 37
            +11
            The irony is not clear. The cavalry proved its viability and effectiveness in WWII. And with the creation of mechanized cavalry groups, it was an inapplicable tool for a breakthrough operation. Korsun-Shevchenkovskaya, Bereznigovato-Snegirevskaya Bobruisk Debrecen operations. And the cavalry did not necessarily have to engage in battle with enemy tanks, although every cavalry corps had an IPTAP in its composition. And there is a set of sarcastic "robust" from cth; fyn I dare to note that all 7 cavalry corps at the end of the war were Guards
            1. Skavron
              Skavron 17 January 2013 14: 48
              +7
              Kuban ... I will support!
              In WWII, cavalry still played a very important role.
              And by such a parameter as "passability", I was in the lead, I would say.
            2. plebs
              plebs 17 January 2013 17: 17
              +5
              In my opinion, Manstein said "when we entered Russia, we realized that we were in a hurry with the disbandment of the cavalry units"
        3. Nuar
          Nuar 17 January 2013 14: 43
          +6
          Quote: Company 8
          Do not tell everyone about the crushing victories over the Wehrmacht won by the troops under the command of Budyonny? I think it will be interesting.
          well, for example, in July-August 41, being the commander-in-chief of the troops of the South-Western direction, he organized defense on the Zhitomir-Korosten-Malin line, did not allow the capture of Kiev. Moreover, in the Kiev fortified area, the troops settled so firmly that they constituted not a serious, but simply a catastrophic threat to the right wing of the Arsiy "Center" group - the result of disrupting the offensive on Moscow, gaining time (so necessary for mobilization, strategic deployment).

          but to a liberal - these are all empty words.
          1. 8 company
            8 company 17 January 2013 16: 25
            -4
            Quote: Nuar
            did not allow the capture of Kiev. Moreover, in the Kiev fortified area, the troops settled so firmly that they constituted not a serious, but simply a catastrophic threat to the right wing of the Arsiy "Center" group - the result of disrupting the offensive on Moscow, gaining time (so necessary for mobilization, strategic deployment).


            It seems that you are raving. Nothing accidentally heard about the Kiev boiler - the largest military environment in the history of world wars? And about Umansky? Minsk? Smolensky? Vyazemsky? Maybe in your perverted mind all these boilers are a gain in time? fool
            1. Nuar
              Nuar 17 January 2013 17: 41
              +5
              Quote: Company 8
              It seems that you are raving.
              maybe I'm delirious, only that the "Kiev cauldron" was at a time when the South-West direction was commanded by Tymoshenko, not Budyonny.

              But why should a "liberal" figure out who was in command at what moment, if he already knows that "Budyonny is a dinosaur of the past"?

              Quote: Company 8
              Maybe in your perverted mind all these boilers are a gain in time?
              in my understanding - a boiler is always bad. And although the commander of the Southwestern Front, General Krivonos, received from the commander of the Southwestern direction he received an order to withdraw the troops of the front, from the Dnieper and Desna rivers to the region of the Psiol river, he did not manage to execute it.

              And no one, O liberal sage, judged him for this because, unlike Pavlov, he had circumstances that were extremely difficult to overcome.
              1. Kubanets
                Kubanets 17 January 2013 21: 23
                +1
                I agree Krivonos as whom SW had the right to independence But he looked back at the SVG and Budyonny as the beginning of the SW direction
            2. Kubanets
              Kubanets 17 January 2013 21: 04
              +1
              We heard 8 Companies And won (won 0 in the war) and you just have to look for our mistakes and get inspired
              1. dentitov
                dentitov 18 January 2013 21: 43
                0
                Kubanets
                We heard 8 Companies And won (won 0 in the war) and you just have to look for our mistakes and get inspired
                ,
                oooh
            3. Zynaps
              Zynaps 17 January 2013 21: 12
              +3
              but you will not torment us all and tear off all the covers? and at the same time explain with your fingers how you would famously defeat an adversary in those realities.

              But in general, Citizen Churchill, apparently, for all sorts of dunduk there once said very correctly: "you can lose all battles in general, except the last one."
            4. 77bor1973
              77bor1973 18 January 2013 14: 03
              +1
              The fact is that our commanders did not know how to act in an environment of threat of encirclement, they were afraid of encirclement and therefore tried to quickly withdraw all troops at a time when this was not worth it, the Germans took advantage of this and, with superiority in the air, bombed the place of concentration of troops. taught, studied in battle from their own experience.
            5. tomket
              tomket 19 January 2013 15: 33
              0
              in general, the Kiev boiler, allegedly the largest encirclement, is very exaggerated, there weren’t so many troops to surround it, and by the way, think about the logic of Stalin when talking with Kirponos and Budyonny, can you believe that such a group will be split like a nut? So Stalin did not believe it, but Budyonny came and saw that they don’t know how to fight, so he wanted to take him away and flew off the post.
    4. core
      core 17 January 2013 12: 28
      +4
      the wrong person was Stalin to play chamomile, I believe I do not believe, he knew very well. that war cannot be avoided, but there was a fork who would attack the Anglo-Saxons and Germans.
      1. skullcap
        skullcap 17 January 2013 15: 03
        +7
        Core Today, 12: 28
        ... there was a fork who attacks the Anglo-Saxons and the Germans.
        ______________
        This really is the main reason that all liberal-democratic historians are so unshakably silent about (and others are not kept in official science now). We must not forget that Britain, in parallel with Hitler, was preparing a war against the USSR over the Caspian. And Stalin could not ignore it.
        Second: they were preparing for war, and it was difficult to guess the real date of the beginning of the war, because Hitler had appointed her more than once, and then canceled it, in order to confuse the right decision.
        The troops were mobilized and put on alert, and when the threat disappeared, they again put the equipment in storage, and returned the people to the national economy.
        In addition, after mid-June, starting a war against the USSR with an army that did not have winter clothing was the height of idiocy.
        It was really hard to believe. Even now I don’t understand what made Hitler, like no fool, such an inexplicable folly.
        Or did the owners, who financed his rise to power, put pressure on him?
        1. Alex
          Alex 26 October 2013 19: 54
          +2
          Quote: kosopuz
          Hitler appointed her more than once, and then canceled it to confuse the adoption of the right decision.

          Yeah, and at the same time carefully watched that all these torments of him immediately fell on Stalin's table. It's just that this neurotic, obviously, with some twentieth sense, understood what kind of adventure he was getting into, so he tried to collect more troops and more profitable to spread them. Well, adjust the weather to your, to put it mildly, not very impressive tanks. By the way, the timing of Operation Citadel was about the same.

          The troops were mobilized and put on alert, and when the threat disappeared, they again put the equipment in storage, and returned the people to the national economy.

          And when did you play these "tags"? Something I mean about "mobilization-demobilization"
          ; in spring and summer, 1941 had never heard of anywhere else. Think that you will not look funny.
      2. dentitov
        dentitov 18 January 2013 22: 12
        0
        the wrong person was Stalin to play chamomile, I believe I do not believe, he knew very well. that war cannot be avoided, but there was a fork who would attack the Anglo-Saxons and Germans.
        _______________________________________

        Yes, Churchill planned to bomb our Baku oil fields, so we had divisions in the south. Do not forget about the threat from Japan. So the war could start from three different directions.
    5. illarion
      illarion 17 January 2013 15: 34
      +2
      Look at the list of those who started the war and ended it. One and the same people. Well, almost.
    6. Evrepid
      Evrepid 17 January 2013 16: 42
      -2
      You understand what a little such incomprehensible thing is ...
      The leader did not believe. but the General Staff and in particular Tymoshenko and Zhukov. should have taken all measures to exclude such a situation. Have such measures been taken? The answer is NO. What was done? The entire officers were sent on vacation ... There was such an order for the Red Army.
      There was an order for the Red Army to withdraw all soldiers without weapons to the camps. What do you want now?
    7. alexdol
      alexdol 17 January 2013 21: 48
      0
      8 company BY 'The leader did not believe in the possibility of an attack, ... "
      -------------------------------------------------- ---
      In vain do you think of Stalin. Here I will give a link to an interesting site
      http://www.izstali.com/films/160-goblin.html
      Here are collected various materials about Stalin. And some of what Dmitry Puchkov is talking about is just consistent with what is said in this article ...
      1. dentitov
        dentitov 18 January 2013 22: 20
        +1
        In vain do you think of Stalin. Here I will give a link to an interesting site
        http://www.izstali.com/films/160-goblin.html

        ___________________________________________

        Thanks. A tough, uncompromising site. I was very pleased. In response, I can recommend N. Starikov's book "Stalin. We Remember Together". Very serious work.
    8. anip
      anip 18 January 2013 09: 55
      +2
      Stalin had no doubts about Germany's attack on the USSR, there are enough documents and facts about this. As a fact, for example, the preparation of sites for factories in the interior of the country. Another thing is that the question is WHEN the Germans were going to attack the USSR. Before the next "exact" date of the German attack on June 22, 1941, there were several no less "exact" dates of the German attack on the USSR. And it is not Stalin's fault that the "forecast" regarding the next "exact" date was justified. And Stalin waited for the attack itself and did everything to delay it (the notorious Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact from the same series)
      ..
      Regarding the wrong counterattacks: so now sitting in a comfortable chair and knowing how everything happened, it is easy to look for mistakes. In addition, there was also an obvious betrayal of some generals about which there are many facts (you can read at least here http://alternathistory.org.ua/izmena-1941-goda)
      1. dentitov
        dentitov 18 January 2013 22: 25
        0
        In addition, there was also an obvious betrayal of some generals about which there are many facts (you can read at least here http://alternathistory.org.ua/izmena-1941-goda)
        _______________________________________

        This plot was led by Tukhachevsky, who planned to surrender the country to the Germans in the event of their attack. He admitted this after the arrest, for which this reptile was shot, and with him his accomplices. Apparently, not everyone was shot, because In the summer of 1941 there were many arrests among the Red Army command staff with similar charges, because a series of defeats in the first months was very similar to the implementation of Tukhachevsky’s plan.
        1. alexdol
          alexdol 19 January 2013 22: 41
          0
          dentitov RU "In addition, there was also a clear betrayal of some generals about which there are many facts (you can read at least here http://alternathistory.org.ua/izmena-1941-goda"
          -----------------------------------------------------------------
          And thank you for the link, only you had an extra parenthesis at the end! I read it with interest. What can I say - everything is very similar to the TRUTH! They just HIDDEN it from us! I will cite the statement of Marshal Konev from this note: "I don't want to lie, but they won't be allowed to write the truth anyway." Indeed - would not be allowed! Here it is appropriate to recall Khrushchev, this "initiator" of the Stalin cult! His betrayal is still waiting for its researchers.
    9. tomket
      tomket 19 January 2013 15: 26
      0
      one more grief is a resident on our head, so tell me, did Mac Arthur also be a noob and a goof? Or did the Model become a noob by 44 and needed a new profi? There wasn’t just a strategic initiative, and the main reason for the defeat that everyone forgot about the opponent’s skillful actions .
  6. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 10: 07
    -11
    Quote: Company 8
    But the worst thing is not this, but the fact that at the head of the Red Army were, as today's youth say, "noobs" or "fuckers". Even after the attack, they illiterately assessed the situation, led the troops incorrectly, so all seemingly powerful counterattacks against the Germans failed with catastrophic losses.

    very true noticed.
    1. avt
      avt 17 January 2013 11: 28
      +10
      Quote: WOLF
      very true noticed.

      Tukhachevsky "For 5 weeks our non-stop offensive lasted, for 5 weeks we tried to find the manpower of the enemy in order to finally destroy his manpower in a decisive blow. ...... We did not know in advance where we would meet the main enemy resistance - on the Vistula or beyond But we knew one thing, that ANYWHERE we would find and defeat his main forces ....... "This is about the Poles during the civil period. I wonder where, as a professional, he would have found the Germans in 1941 if he had not been shot?
    2. Poppy
      Poppy 17 January 2013 11: 36
      +10
      noticed very wrong, counterattacks were quite effective, they performed their role properly
  7. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 10: 27
    -5
    Quote: BigRiver
    were mistaken in the GENERAL estimate of the number of Wehrmacht compounds. That is, they were overestimated. From here they made the wrong conclusion - concentration is not over yet.

    Decipher it concretely and thoroughly. Did they consider the overstated number as not overstated?

    Quote: Lantau
    And what exactly is the leader and teacher to blame for?

    The fact that there are no irreplaceable people, wood chips are flying, and that which is possible is therefore possible.
    In this case, we are talking about the summer of 1941, i.e. he is to blame for it, and his fault since 1937.
    1. Lantau
      Lantau 17 January 2013 10: 32
      0
      well it is clear smile And in this regard, I have a question, but what was to be done?
      1. Kubanets
        Kubanets 17 January 2013 12: 27
        +5
        At that time, the military leadership of the country acted in my opinion correctly. The comments speak of counterattacks ending catastrophically. But here’s an example: the counter-strike of the mechanized corps in the Lutsk-Dubno-Brody region cooled the hot heads of Kleist and Reichenau and allowed Kostenko and Ponedelin’s army to be pulled away from the border and later on the South-West troops to gain a foothold at the borders of the Kiev and Korosten URs. Khatskilevich, but he ordered the withdrawal of troops from the Bialystok ledge too late. The result is a grandiose boiler west of Minsk
    2. Bigriver
      Bigriver 17 January 2013 10: 39
      +3
      Volkhov (1)
      Decipher it concretely and thoroughly. Did they consider the overstated number as not overstated?

      There are two critical meanings:
      - The total number of divisions in the armed forces of the probable enemy
      - The number of concentrated enemy divisions on the border.
      Our General Staff (and the military-political leadership) proceeded from the incorrect premise of the need for the Wehrmacht in more divisions to invade the USSR.
      That is, having overestimated the first value, but correctly evaluating the second, made the wrong conclusion.
      A whole train of false intelligence from our intelligence about the beginning of the invasion in May and early June also played a huge role.
      In general, the Germans did a good job on a multi-level disinformation.
  8. washi
    washi 17 January 2013 10: 39
    +6
    poor preparation of l / s, incomplete parts, lack of interaction. almost the same as now
  9. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 10: 40
    -10
    Quote: Lantau
    And in this regard, I have a question, but what was to be done?

    The Red Army did not have to be beheaded.
    1. Lantau
      Lantau 17 January 2013 10: 48
      +8
      First you need to find out who and for what shot. If you are talking about Tukhachevsky, I personally am so sorry that he had not been shot before. If about Blucher, who died during interrogation in the NKVD, the same thing. And by and large, Stalin is accused of the fact that he was not the Lord God!
      1. 8 company
        8 company 17 January 2013 10: 52
        -8
        Quote: Lantau
        First you need to find out who and for what shot.


        And how exactly did the generals have to be shot so that this would not affect the combat effectiveness of the army? That is, they were shot as it was necessary, or wrong, as you think?
        1. Lantau
          Lantau 17 January 2013 11: 02
          0
          I believe that the needlework of the country and the army was too soft.
          1. 8 company
            8 company 17 January 2013 12: 11
            -6
            Quote: Lantau
            I believe that the needlework of the country and the army was too soft.


            Right Under-shot. Now, if in 1937–38 sergeants weren’t appointed as captains of the division, we would show the Germans Kuzkin’s mother.
            1. Kubanets
              Kubanets 17 January 2013 13: 05
              +8
              Well, about the captains in the divisions, a worn-out record of shit-crap recorded on Khrushchov's brews. Surely the commander of the tank division, Chernyakhovsky, was 37 as an under-trained captain. And the hero you mentioned, General Romanov, completed a machine gun course at 37. And Rodimtsev received the star of the Hero in patronage
              1. vyatom
                vyatom 17 January 2013 14: 08
                -1
                Yes. But the Finnish war showed just the unpreparedness and inability of the then command of flax. okay think competently.
                And remember the Marshals Voroshilov and Budyonny, or Mehlis. - These unfinished warriors, but personally loyal to Stalin.
                1. Kubanets
                  Kubanets 17 January 2013 14: 58
                  +2
                  The Finnish war showed offbeat sentiment. And when sobering came, both willingness and ability appeared. And as a result, the Mannerheim line was taken.
                2. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 17 January 2013 15: 08
                  +1
                  vyatom "Yes. But the Finnish war showed just the unreadiness and inability of the then command of the Leningrad District to think competently."
                  And how do you think we won or lost in Finnish?
                  1. Kubanets
                    Kubanets 17 January 2013 21: 46
                    +1
                    Sorry dear. The war was won out for reasons. First, the border was pushed away from Leningrad. The USSR received the base of the northern part of the Abo-Dutch art position that covered the entrance to the Gulf of Finland. They proposed a good territory in Kalerlia to Vyborg. So what? They gave everything with a bow
                    1. washi
                      washi 18 January 2013 12: 21
                      0
                      add. Adequately Finnish campaign appreciated by the Balts and Romania. to + Bessarabia and the Baltic states.
                3. Alex
                  Alex 26 October 2013 20: 35
                  +2
                  Budyonny in his military education was a hundred goals higher than Tukhachevsky, and this is another question, who used to express those notorious advanced ideas about the mechanization of the army. As for me, Tukhachevsky simply trivially rubbed other people's thoughts, which he later gave out as his own (in science and literature, such activity is called plagiarism). Perhaps that’s why he got a mess too: on the one hand, everything seems to be right, but on the other it’s absolutely crazy.
              2. 8 company
                8 company 17 January 2013 14: 58
                -2
                Quote: Kubanets
                Well, about the captains in the divisions, a worn-out record of shit-crap recorded on Khrushchov's brews.



                Marshal Vasilevsky, twice Hero of the Soviet Union, who was before the war as deputy chief of the General Staff of the USSR, spoke in an interview with Konstantin Simonov: 'What to say about the consequences for the army in thirty-seventh-thirty-eighth years? You say that without the thirty-seventh year there would have been no defeats in the forty-first, but I will say more. Without the thirty-seventh year, perhaps, there would have been no war at all in the forty-first year. In the fact that Hitler decided to start a war in XNUMX, an assessment of the degree of defeat of military personnel that took place in our country played an important role. But what can I say, when in XNUMX I had to be on the commission during the transfer of the Leningrad Military District from Khozin to Meretskov, there were a number of divisions commanded by the captains, because everyone who was above was arrested without exception. ' (Simonov K. "Through the eyes of a man of my generation", "Banner". 1988. number 5. P. 81.)

                So, say Marshal Vasilevsky - "crap" for you, who repeats someone's nonsense? Let me then answer for the marshal: you are just a virtual balabol who does not know the history of your own Fatherland.
                1. fed2912
                  fed2912 17 January 2013 16: 05
                  -2
                  Support!
                2. Kubanets
                  Kubanets 17 January 2013 21: 56
                  +3
                  You know the 8th company And why should I take the Banner of 88 as an instance in the last incarnation? I have sayings of the same A. Vasilevsky of a different tone
                  1. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 18 January 2013 09: 11
                    +1
                    Kubanets "I have statements of the same And Vasilevsky of a different tonality"
                    That tonality in which Vasilevsky’s interview was given is most likely the 50s. He died in 1977. How it became possible to blame Stalin-and published.
                    And here is another statement of A.M. Vasilevsky about repression.
                    “The end of the course was nearing, but most of us did not succeed in completing it. One of the reasons for this was the violation of Leninist norms of party and state life and socialist legality, completely unfounded repressions in the country, including in the Armed Forces. as a result of which a part of the command-political and especially the leading personnel of the Armed Forces, teachers and students of the academy was arrested "p. 87. A.M. Vasilevsky The work of all life, Book 1-7th ed.-M .: Politizdat, 1990.-320s: ill.
                    It is about the Academy of the General Staff.
                3. washi
                  washi 18 January 2013 12: 25
                  0
                  You are still Zhukov and Khrushchev
                4. Alex
                  Alex 26 October 2013 20: 45
                  +2
                  Everyone was waiting for whether this notorious quotation of Vasilevsky would come up. And here he is, the dead man. This phrase is brought ONLY in the writings of K. Simonov, who, with all due respect to the unconditional talent of the writer, as a man was rare ... and always kept his nose in the wind. He NEVER wrote anything that would go against the official ideology, while he did not disdain some fraud and distortion. So what was that conversation going on (by the way, A.V. Vasilevsky himself doesn’t say anything about this meeting and doesn’t mention this meeting), in what context thoughts were expressed and what they were illustrated for, it remains on Simonov’s conscience. But I just don’t believe him.
                  PS Once again I repeat: I have no complaints about his work, he is an unrivaled master of words.
              3. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 17 January 2013 15: 07
                +2
                Kubanets "Well, about the captains in the divisions, a hackneyed disc of shitcrats recorded on Khrushchov's rags."
                In fact, when you look at the biographies of the army commanders in 1941, everything is in order and with education and combat experience.
            2. cth; fyn
              cth; fyn 17 January 2013 13: 45
              +4
              Let me remind you of a more recent example when the Army became more combat-ready with the shift of top leadership: Serdyukov am
              1. dentitov
                dentitov 18 January 2013 22: 33
                0
                Let me remind you of a more recent example when the Army became more combat-ready with the shift of top leadership: Serdyukov
                ________________________________

                Yes, this nits will forever enter the annals of Russian history. I hope they shoot the reptile or give a life sentence.
        2. core
          core 17 January 2013 12: 31
          +4
          not the top of the army was shot. but ordinary traitors.
          1. Volkh
            Volkh 17 January 2013 21: 36
            0
            And what was the betrayal?
      2. vyatom
        vyatom 17 January 2013 14: 05
        0
        But Blucher and Tukhachevsky were Jews?
        1. Volkh
          Volkh 17 January 2013 21: 35
          +1
          Jews like you are an alien.
  10. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 10: 51
    -6
    Quote: Lantau
    First you need to find out who and for what shot. If you are talking about Tukhachevsky, I personally am so sorry that he had not been shot before. If about Blucher, who died during interrogation in the NKVD, the same thing.

    Both of them were spanked from scratch. As for Blucher, the indicator of damage from cleaning the army is the actions of the Red Army in the conflict on the CER and Khalkhin-gol.
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 17 January 2013 10: 56
      +6
      Volkhov (1)
      As for Blucher, the indicator of damage from the purge of the army is the actions of the Red Army in the conflict on the CER and Khalkhin Gol.

      That is, the conflict on the CER happened without Blucher and AFTER the 37th? belay
      Fun tut ...
      Indeed, something urgently needs to be done with school books!
      1. Poppy
        Poppy 17 January 2013 11: 37
        +6
        these are all the results of the exam
    2. Lantau
      Lantau 17 January 2013 10: 59
      0
      If from scratch, then the question arises, why? What is the reason?
    3. core
      core 17 January 2013 12: 32
      -1
      ignoramus. I'm in shock.
    4. Kubanets
      Kubanets 18 January 2013 00: 30
      +1
      As the famous character from the movie "Gentlemen of Fortune" said - Learn the bast card "
    5. washi
      washi 18 January 2013 12: 31
      0
      read the test results after Lake Hassan. For this, do not shoot - you need to quarter. And there were a lot of them.

      read the test results after Lake Hassan. For this, do not shoot - you need to quarter. And there were a lot of them.
  11. AK-74-1
    AK-74-1 17 January 2013 10: 54
    +26
    Good article. For some reason, none of the fascists sprinkles ashes on their heads and on their knees crawls to repentance to the Pope (Roman). But there were absolutely catastrophic defeats. This is the Battle of the Dnieper, Lvov, Korsun-Shevchenko, Yasso-Kishinev offensive operations. I'm not even talking about the Belarusian, Vistula-Oder and Berlin operations. Taking Berlin in general is the height of operational art. It is strange when they talk about Bialystok they do not remember the camp of armed prisoners of war of 500 fascists. They talk about the Kiev cauldron, but they do not remember about the 000 fascists from the Center Army Group who surrendered near Prague. Do not remember how the SS-sheep for the failure on the lake. Balaton was cut off by the personal stripes of the Fuhrer. Let's compare the battle for Smolensk and the capture of Koenigsberg. The battle for Moscow and the capture of Berlin.
    There were absolutely objective reasons for what happened in 1941-1942, these are:
    suddenness;
    the absolute and suicidal adventurism of the fascists, which sensible people cannot calculate;
    the result of surprise shattered the destruction of communication systems;
    the result of surprise was a violation of the principle of concentration of newly formed units, that is, military personnel in a different place, and material resources in echelons in another place.
    And the latter now I have little faith in the fact that a homosexual army from Europe will climb Russia, but this does not mean at all that the buggers will not attack (there are also suicides among them). Just like the presence of nuclear weapons does not at all mean the need for their use. It is necessary that the potential adversary really believes in the possibility of such an application.
    1. Skavron
      Skavron 17 January 2013 11: 34
      +4
      Perhaps the only competent comment.
      It is a pity that there is only one "+")
    2. 8 company
      8 company 17 January 2013 12: 04
      -3
      Quote: AK-74-1
      For some reason, none of the Nazis sprinkle ashes on their heads


      You are deeply mistaken. Read the memoirs of German military leaders, they are full of ash and insults for the defeat of the Wehrmacht. It is normal to regret the defeats of your army and analyze their causes.
      1. Skavron
        Skavron 17 January 2013 12: 06
        +10
        8 company
        But the analysis in the memoirs is so one-sided that it can be expressed in 4 words: "The Fuhrer is to blame for everything."
        1. 8 company
          8 company 17 January 2013 13: 00
          -2
          Quote: Skavron
          But the analysis in the memoirs is so one-sided that it can be expressed in 4 words: "The Fuhrer is to blame for everything."


          And what, you have something to praise the Fuhrer for?
          1. Skavron
            Skavron 17 January 2013 13: 17
            0
            Quote: Company 8
            And what, you have something to praise the Fuhrer for?

            Personally, no.
            I just pointed out a certain bias in the memoirs of German generals.
        2. rainer
          rainer 17 January 2013 16: 46
          +12
          Not only the Fuhrer. Here I quote the dupe, but still:
          The history of the Second World War according to the memoirs of Guderian, Middeldorf, Mellentin, Manstein and Tippelskirch

          Hitler interfered with us. Hitler was a German soldier was rulez. The German commander was like Great Frederick, but without the vicious
          inclinations.

          The Russians flunked us with meat. The Russians had a lot of meat. The Russian soldier is a child of nature, he eats what he cannot
          he runs, sleeps like a horse, and knows how to seep. The author has repeatedly witnessed
          how entire Russian tank armies seeped through the front line, and nothing betrayed their presence - it would seem
          Yesterday, the usual artillery bombardment, bombing, the advance of the Russians, and suddenly again !!! - The Russian tank army is already in the rear.

          The SS was sometimes a bit overdoing. That is, if everything was limited to ordinary robberies, executions, violence and
          destruction that sometimes committed
          a German soldier from an excess of youthful strength, far more people would accept the new order with pleasure.

          The Russians had a T-34 tank. It was not fair. We didn’t have such a tank.

          The Russians had many anti-tank guns. Each soldier had an anti-tank gun - he hid with it in the pits, in
          hollow trees, in the grass, under the roots of trees.

          The Russians had many Mongols and Turkmens. Mongols and Turkmens, backed up by commissars, are a terrible thing.

          The Russians had commissars. Commissars is a terrible thing. A-priory. Most of the commissioners were Jews. Even the Jews
          We have not destroyed our Jews in a businesslike way. Himmler was also

          The Russians used a dishonest reception - they pretended to give up, and then - once !!! and shot a German soldier in the back.
          Once the Russian tank corps, pretending to surrender, shot an entire heavy tank battalion in the back.

          Russians killed German soldiers. In general, it was a terrible zapadlo, after all, to be honest, these were German soldiers
          kill the Russians! Russians are all polls.

          The Allies betrayed us. I mean, the Americans and the British.

          The Russians have always had better weather (if we have a thaw, the Russians frost puts ice in the mud; if we have snow,
          they have no snow behind the front line).

          On the other side of the front, the Russians have a better developed road network (regardless of the configuration of the front line), and in general Russians
          famous for their ability to quickly rebuild and pave new roads. It's not fair.

          The Russians do not adhere to Western criteria for patency of certain sections. They can hit their tanks on
          wide caterpillars through such swamps,
          which are marked as "impassable" on our maps. We didn't agree so! ..
      2. atalef
        atalef 17 January 2013 21: 45
        0
        Quote: Company 8
        You are deeply mistaken. Read the memoirs of German military leaders, they are full of ash and insults for the defeat of the Wehrmacht. It is normal to regret the defeats of your army and analyze their causes.

        Yes, I read 2 volumes of Halder's diaries. (by the way, 1 was either not published or simply closed, it concerned the beginning of the war with analysis of the defeat of the head of the Kras.Armiya, I at least did not find it), it absolutely honestly (in the next two) analyzes the causes of defeats, the role of Hitler and anxiety for the future of Germany.
    3. SIT
      SIT 17 January 2013 12: 11
      +3
      Quote: AK-74-1
      There were absolutely objective reasons for what happened in 1941-1942, these were: surprise; the absolute and suicidal adventurism of the Nazis, which sensible people cannot count; the result of surprise shattered the destruction of communication systems; the result of surprise was a violation of the principle of concentration of newly formed units, i.e. in another place, and material means still in trains in another place.

      Do not you think that the country feeds, watered, dresses and shoes the command of the armed forces precisely in order not to be attacked suddenly? This is for the miner and the collective farmer the attack of the enemy can be sudden, the army simply does not have the right to be caught suddenly. The violation of the principle of concentration of newly formed units you mentioned is not an accidental consequence of surprise, but an integral part of the blitzkrieg doctrine. Deployment anticipation is the main idea of ​​this doctrine. Such an idea arose as early as the 19th century, in the final military concept took shape in the works of German military science in 1911, was fully implemented in 1940 during the capture of France. How was all this studied and summarized in Soviet military science? What is the basis of this analysis to develop a plan to counter the blitzkrieg? Retreat to Khimki is part of this plan? The strength of the Red Army as of June 22.06.41, 5, 080. C. Streit, a fairly authoritative specialist in Soviet prisoners of war in World War II, claims that in 977 the Wehrmacht captured 1941 soldiers and commanders of the Red Army. For six months of 2, irretrievable losses amounted to 465 000 1941 people. This is natural given permanent mobilization. This is also a pancake part of a wise plan to counter the blitzkrieg !?
      1. AK-74-1
        AK-74-1 17 January 2013 12: 41
        +3
        The fact of the matter is that in order not to be attacked, you suddenly need to either change position or attack yourself. This is a common truth. Yes, the leadership of the USSR knew about the concentration of Wehrmacht troops. There are many sources where the date is indicated exactly. But ... You can recall the 1939-th 25 August. The attack on Poland was postponed to 1 on September. The attack on France was repeatedly delayed. The whole thing is that the Fuhrer made a specific decision. And really, the date of the offensive could be judged only after the 13-14 of June 1941, which was a turning point. Moreover, our bosom allies themselves planned the tricks until 22 on June 1941. These are Iranian provocations and an attack on the crafts in Baku, etc. And then to be ready for an attack does not mean the adequacy of the response to this attack. The USSR was ready for war with the Nazis, which confirms the act of unconditional surrender on May 9 1945 year. Yes, the Red Army really lost ground to the first onslaught of the Wehrmacht - this is also a fact, but the low combat qualities of the Red Army absolutely do not follow from it. The question arises: where did the excellent Wehrmacht fighting qualities go in the 1943-1945 years? The Nazis were a good team of sprinters led by a suicidal adventurer, and the USSR turned out to be an excellent marathoner.
        Much more about prisoners. As a result of the war, the USSR received an occupation zone with a population of more than 20 000 000 people, in addition, we can include the population of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, which together amounted to more than 100 million people. In addition, a huge territory was occupied, and the outer border of the USSR was attributed to the center of Europe. I was quite happy with such results.
        1. SIT
          SIT 17 January 2013 13: 12
          +2
          Quote: AK-74-1
          in order not to be attacked suddenly you need to either change position or attack yourself

          Quote: AK-74-1
          USSR was ready for war with fascists


          What was the plan to repel the blitzkrieg? The strategy plan of the blitzkrieg itself is visible to the naked eye - Army Group Center, North, South. The tactics are also understandable - coverage, bypasses, environments. All this was known long before the war, and the same Zhukov at headquarters games, playing for the blue ones, beat Pavlov, who played for the Reds, with precisely such maneuvers. How did the Soviet command prepare for the blitzkrieg in real life? Zhukov himself writes that in the Maloyaroslavsky direction on 19.10.41/XNUMX/XNUMX there were not a single Soviet soldier between the Germans and Moscow. This in no way can be provided for by any defense plan. It turns out that the Soviet leadership did not have a well-thought-out plan to counter precisely the blitzkrieg, and because of this, hundreds of thousands had to stand to the last and still lie unburied near Smolensk, Vyazma, Rzhev, Sevastopol. It is precisely thanks to them, those who have fulfilled their duty to the Motherland to the end, the Nazis failed to reach Moscow before the fall, and not the wise leadership.
          As for prisoners, you know that the Germans very carefully kept records of everything, including human material. So if you look at their credentials, it turns out the vast majority of these prisoners by the fall of 1942 had already died from starvation, disease, and overwork. No territorial acquisition compensates for the senseless death of these people.
          1. AK-74-1
            AK-74-1 17 January 2013 13: 35
            +5
            Let's talk!
            I think it is clear to all commentators and visitors to the site that a blitz krieg against Russia-USSR is impossible due to the vast geographic spaces, high technical, scientific and resource potential. Secondly, the "Barbarossa" plan is the most stupid plan and was invented by a man no smarter than my Yakut gunner who fled to the army from a reindeer herding farm. This is not in the sense that the gunner is Yakut and that his nationality is Yakut, but in the fact that the guy is very smart and excellent gunner, but he was more of a specialist in deer than in the tactics of a rifle platoon in defense. Let's look at the balance of forces and means of the first echelon, mobilization reserves and natural resources. I understand what the Skoda factories are worth, but I also understand that these factories are absolutely meaningless in the absence of resources.
            In general, judging from the height of the years gone by. We can say that there were plans in the USSR, but they were not realized in 1941-1942, but in 1944-1945. These plans are now called the Iasi-Chisinau offensive operation with access to the corridor of Galati-Focsana and the seizure of the Romanian, Hungarian and Austrian oil and oil refining areas. This is the Vistula-Oder and East Pomeranian offensive operations with access to the Oder-Varta line and to the Baltic with the encirclement and destruction of the East Prussian and Pomeranian enemy groups.
            The fact that surprise was of decisive importance for the 22.06.1941 of the year cannot be disputed and blamed on the Red Army personnel. It’s just that even if you yourself as a person are ready to attack, then, having suddenly received a blow to the right egg, you will be limited for some time in choosing means to counter the enemy.
            1. SIT
              SIT 17 January 2013 14: 32
              0
              Quote: AK-74-1
              Secondly, the "Barbarossa" plan is the stupidest plan and was invented by a man no smarter than my Yakut gunner who fled to the army from a reindeer herding

              Actually, this is the plan of the German General Staff. Don't you really flatter your gunner for a reindeer herder? The whole adventure in the East was suicidal for Germany, but those who really invested in World War II did not want Germany to win it. This adventure had a vague chance if they accepted Hitler’s original plan. This is something that they tried to implement late in the 2nd summer campaign, but this would hardly have changed the main results. The main task of World War II was completed on July 42, 2, and after that the war had to be quickly curtailed, which was done.
              Quote: AK-74-1
              It can be said that there were plans in the USSR, only they were not realized in 1941-1942, but in 1944-1945.

              Don't you think that a delay of 3 years is unacceptable to put it mildly for plans to repel aggression? I'm really trying to find the old Soviet plan of warfare written before 1941. This thought came to me recently and I can’t boast that I was digging for a long time. If there is such an infa then throw someone exile. Then it will be possible to consider Barbarossa and the Soviet plan together and understand what went according to plan, and what as always.
            2. washi
              washi 18 January 2013 12: 44
              0
              quite possible. retaliation - yes. no attack. I do not think that Comrade Stalin would want to fight the whole world. He knew that Hess flew over, that Churchill hated the USSR, that England and France were preparing an attack on us in 40
          2. rainer
            rainer 17 January 2013 16: 51
            +1
            E-comrade, you were not mistaken; that was on that game, here is a link to you:

            http://rkka.ru/ibibl2.htm
          3. washi
            washi 18 January 2013 12: 37
            0
            It has already been proven that the beetles are lying in "their" memoirs. and as the chief of the General Staff, he bears all responsibility for the mistakes of 1941
        2. vyatom
          vyatom 17 January 2013 14: 26
          0
          And the millions of dead Soviet citizens are happy with you. Destroyed cities and villages you blah suit, ak-74-1? I miss you, because you can’t say anything worthwhile; you are talking nonsense.
          1. AK-74-1
            AK-74-1 17 January 2013 16: 20
            +2
            I repeat! I am satisfied with the result that the USSR received as a WINNER according to the results of the 2 World War. This result is concluded in large areas of central and south-eastern Europe with a population. Reparations in the form of labor from captured fascists. Part of Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, as well as the right to use the city of Dalniy and part of Liaodong under the base of the Navy. That is what I had in mind. I am unbearably sorry and deeply regrettable to realize that millions of Soviet citizens fell in battles for my Motherland and became victims of the brainless adventurism of the Führer and his overseas masters.
          2. dievleha
            dievleha 17 January 2013 17: 09
            0
            AK-74-1 plus,
            vyatom France and England were at war and were completely mobilized, what they could do, in the USSR they had not forgotten the lessons of the First World War, when the announcement of mobilization led to the outbreak of war, and that the USSR had to attack the same rake, therefore they delayed how they could and therefore were not ready. Regarding the repressions, compare the size of the army and the officer corps in 1937 and 1941 (early June), the numbers themselves will say that a sharp increase without loss of quality is not possible and the combat effectiveness was not weakened by repression
        3. Evgan
          Evgan 17 January 2013 23: 00
          -1
          Speaking about the tricks of our future allies, it should be noted that not everything is so simple here. Yes, there really were plans to bombard Baku, but you need to understand what caused them.
          Put yourself in the place of the then leaders of France and England. These countries, albeit somehow, but still fight with Hitler in 1939 and 1940. Hitler concluded a pact with Stalin, the USSR supplies its resources to Germany. Baku oil - strategic - could also go to the Germans, which the same Britons really did not want. Hence the plans.
          I’m not that they are white and fluffy, I’m that the international situation was somewhat more complicated than some people imagine.
          1. Alex
            Alex 26 October 2013 21: 19
            +2
            EvganAre you all this serious? Is it England in the Caucasus who cares about the fate of the world? Or didn’t they even circulate the Circassians to Russia? Or have they not done everything so that the Second World War has just begun? Or recall how, thanks to England and France, with the direct participation of Poland, negotiations in Moscow failed, with the success of which there would have been no war at all? Or recall how England in Munich nurtured Hitler in his quest for the east? Well, about how England and France rushed to defend Poland in 1939, you yourself said - somehow.

            And at the expense of aid to Germany, so generally ridiculous. And then the monopolies of America and the same England did not supply Germany with strategic materials almost until the very capture of Berlin? So don't look for any excuses in the international environment. England is neither "white and fluffy", she is mean, aggressive, deceitful and greedy. And her heirs, the Americans, are the same, only in addition, and stupid: everyone climbs out on emigrants and grant eaters.
    4. vyatom
      vyatom 17 January 2013 14: 14
      -1
      How can you not notice the 4,5 million army on its borders. When all the intelligence made it clear that the attack would take place. There is no excuse for this. The problem is that one person had all the full power, and if he was wrong (or the film was spy on him), then the fucked one would attack everyone. SIT correctly says - this collective farmer can be taken by surprise. And the army should be ready for such a development of events, which we did not observe in the 41st. And then the same workers and collective farmers pulled the whole war on their shoulders. So ... you need such an army if they cannot fulfill the assigned tasks, and it’s necessary for the civilian people to drive people to war, who then restored everything on his hump while the army men at headquarters lived sweetly before the war, and during and after. Read the memories of ordinary people who were primarily under fire. Not personnel commissioners and majors, and colonels, but civilians hastily trained and armed, gaining combat experience with their blood.
      1. SIT
        SIT 17 January 2013 15: 21
        0
        Quote: vyatom
        Read the memories of ordinary people who were primarily under fire. Not personnel commissioners and majors, and colonels, but civilians hastily trained and armed, gaining combat experience with their blood.

        It is a fact. In 1945, only 4,2% of the 1941 personnel army ended the war.
    5. dentitov
      dentitov 18 January 2013 22: 39
      0
      AK-74-1,
      For some reason, many critics consider the successes of our army during the Great Patriotic War for granted. To break the backbone of Europe with the Nazis at the head - this was logical and uncomplicated from the point of view of shit sprayers. After all, the Red Army, by definition, is stronger. But that's why in 1941 for a month and a half they did not pile on the European team, from their bestial point of view, is outrageous.
      You can recall the Crimean War, when it was very difficult for ours to fight with three powers at the same time. But even there they piled decently on everyone, in the end there was a combat draw, but a political defeat. However, they do not write about this anywhere, but, on the contrary, throw mud at the Russian soldiers "who have left Sevastopol." Although it is known that the French, Turks and British occupied only HALF of the city, and were afraid to go to the other half because of the terrible losses to which they were not used.
      To understand the greatness and power of Soviet weapons, I can offer you to see what kind of crayfish the war with Georgia was won in 2008. With Georgia! Marshal Zhukov would die of laughter.
  12. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 11: 01
    -2
    Quote: BigRiver
    That is, the conflict on the CER happened without Blucher and AFTER the 37th?

    This is i.e. the campaign of 1929 and 1939, as well as the conclusions after these conflicts. If everything was done clearly in 1929, then in 1939 much had already been revealed (This is me about the purges) otherwise the army would have shown different results in 1939.
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 17 January 2013 11: 03
      0
      Volkhov (1)
      What conflict on the CER was AFTER the purges? You consider him an indicator of something?
      On the basis of what do you think that an army that did not have any personnel and regular experience would show other results?
      Tukhachevsky and Yakirs were Svechins and Triandafilovymi?
      1. 8 company
        8 company 17 January 2013 12: 08
        +1
        Quote: BigRiver
        On the basis of what do you think that an army that did not have any personnel and regular experience would show other results?


        Tell this to the legendary commander Gorbatov, who survived the camp and successfully recaptured the entire war. Or Kreiser, who held the Moscow highway in July 1941, and successfully recaptured the entire war. Or Romanov, who held Mogilev with one rifle division against several selected Guderian divisions for 22 days without a single tank. Can you imagine what they would answer you?
        1. Bigriver
          Bigriver 17 January 2013 13: 47
          +1
          8 company
          Tell this to the legendary commander Gorbatov ..,

          And you read the memoirs of Gorbatov himself "Years and Wars". Read one of the best memoirs of our generals Yenko "In the south-western direction" (2 volumes), Popel, the same mentioned, Batov, who fought in the 41st in the Crimea. Perhaps even this is enough, for a start, to understand what the Red Army of the 41st sample was.
          1. 8 company
            8 company 17 January 2013 15: 02
            -4
            Quote: BigRiver
            Perhaps, even this is enough, for starters, to understand what the Red Army of the 41st model was.


            Are you trying to prove something? What 1941 is a series of continuous defeats of the Red Army? Bet you won’t prove it?
            1. Bigriver
              Bigriver 18 January 2013 07: 09
              +4
              8 company

              I'm trying to convey to you, and repeatedly a difficult thought :))
              The Red Army on the 41st was neither a "colossus with feet of clay," nor an excellent army, according to the VOLKh (1).
              She was a very young, inexperienced, growing, only emerging army personnel.
              I note that the Red Army, which met Hitler in 1941, began to appear only after 1937. Up to this point, the army was not personnel, but was formed according to the territorial-police principle. Frame parts and connections were, but their weight in one and a half million red army for 1937 was small.
              We go further. Four years before the outbreak of war, the army numerically grew three times. What do you think, how much time does it take to prepare a platoon, battalion commander, divisional commander? ... Well, do you prepare platoon platters :) And the rest of the command staff?
              Therefore, I do not deny that there were divisions in the Red Army personnel, with excellent training, and fought well and competently. But, in that maneuver war that the Wehrmacht imposed, they could not fundamentally change the situation.
              According to various historians (not only ours), the proportion of well-prepared compounds was on the 41st from 1/3 to 1/5.
              1. krisostomus
                krisostomus 18 January 2013 16: 30
                +1
                But did the Germans have any other way? The law on universal military duty in Germany was adopted only in March 1935, after which the formation of the Wehrmacht in the form of the first 36 divisions with a total number of 500 thousand began. One cannot speak of any great Wehrmacht combat experience either - this is the Polish campaign for about three weeks and the French campaign for just over a month. Only the Soviet-Finnish war lasted more than three months. So both Germany and the USSR began the formation and training of their multi-million-strong armies in exactly the same conditions. The USSR even had advantages.
                1. Volkh
                  Volkh 18 January 2013 21: 20
                  -1
                  The Germans, unlike us, made some conclusions, but we didn’t. That's all. As the song turned out -
                  All is well beautiful marquise ...
              2. 8 company
                8 company 18 January 2013 23: 33
                -2
                Quote: BigRiver
                She was a very young, inexperienced, growing, only emerging army personnel.


                You are mistaken on all counts. Firstly, the army should be ready to effectively repel aggression at any time, but in your opinion it turns out that the Red Army was not at all ready for a war under Stalin’s power. But he, of course, is not responsible for this. wink
                Secondly, the foundation of any army is a personnel corps, with traditions, school, and continuity of generations. For some reason, in the prewar USSR it was not in sufficient quantities. And again, neither Stalin nor Voroshilov, of course, had anything to do with it, huh? winked
                Thirdly, the Wehrmacht can impose its methods of war only on those who are not ready for such a war. It is not clear who prevented preparing for the maneuver war that has been going on for 2 years in Europe. By the way, the theoretical development of maneuver warfare methods in the USSR began no later than Germany.
                So try to understand a simple thing: the army was generally unable to effectively repel the Nazis in the summer of 1941. for the only reason - the inability of the high command of the Red Army and the country to prepare the army for this rebuff. Instead, it was engaged in political cleansing and demagogic propaganda of "war with little blood and on foreign territory."
                1. Alex
                  Alex 26 October 2013 22: 10
                  +3
                  Dear 8 company, just you are mistaken on all counts.

                  Point one.
                  First, the army must be prepared to effectively repel aggression at any time,

                  You pour in the truths of the capital. But BEING READY and EFFECTIVELY REFLECT aggression is not always the same thing. Moreover, an army capable of instant, effective and crushing repulse of aggression is, by definition, several times stronger than the aggressor, and, as practice shows, it is it that carries out aggression. So in your righteous anger, please put the cart behind the horse.

                  Point two.
                  Secondly, the foundation of any army is a personnel corps, with traditions, school, and continuity of generations.

                  And again an elementary truth, although its significance, from my unprofessional point of view, is greatly exaggerated. The cadre army almost completely perishes in the first period of the war, and then the factors known as "reserve" and "mobilization resource" enter into rivalry. The first, with a long service life, cannot be large, the second, as a rule, takes time for training. Since you, apparently, admire the Germans, I will allow myself to quote Clausewitz, who defined the value of the cadre army: "the war is won not by helmets, but by hats."

                  Point three.
                  Who prevented preparing for the maneuver war, which was already 2 year in Europe

                  You are so smart, can you imagine the eyes of the public clearly YOUR version of opposing the Wehrmacht in its maneuvering war so that both the wolves are fed and the sheep are safe? Craving for discoveries ...
  13. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 11: 04
    -8
    Quote: Lantau
    If you are talking about Tukhachevsky, I’m so personally sorry that he wasn’t shot before

    And what is he to blame for yours? The fact that he fought heroically in a civilian fashion with white generals? Or that we got an excellent army thanks to his work. If for this you are an enemy of the people wink
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 17 January 2013 11: 08
      +3
      Volkhov (1)
      army we got excellent thanks to his work.

      Who are you quoting now? Whose opinion is this?
    2. Lantau
      Lantau 17 January 2013 11: 11
      +4
      He fought heroically, well, you gave a blunder. Grassing Tambov peasants with gas, is this heroism? Or heroism in 1920?
      1. Georges14
        Georges14 17 January 2013 11: 27
        +3
        With education - yes, a disaster in the country! State criminals become heroes (though not winning a single battle), and traitors and traitors become fighters against the bloody regime.
        1. Volkh
          Volkh 17 January 2013 19: 46
          -1
          Who are you talking about? If you can be more specific.
          Although I’m povanging, the state criminals are Tukhachevsky, Yakir, Uborevich, etc., in your opinion traitors and traitors who did not win a single battle. And you tell me that I don’t know what happened in the 20s? Yes, and talk with you then essentially nothing. Do you happen to have a portrait of Stalin nowhere hanging? At work, or at home? Instead of an icon, for example.
      2. core
        core 17 January 2013 12: 36
        +3
        he does not know what happened in the 20th year.
      3. Volkh
        Volkh 17 January 2013 20: 38
        -2
        Significantly tired of individuals similar to you, but still so happy with my letters of light that I would be happy to share it with you so that your pictures would turn out multidimensional.
        http://wiki.istmat.info/%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%84:%D1%82%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5%

        D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB_%D0%BA%D1%80%

        D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD_%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8
      4. Volkh
        Volkh 18 January 2013 08: 31
        -1
        Quote: Lantau
        Yeroishki fought, well, you gave a blunder. Grassing Tambov peasants with gas, is this heroism?

        What peasants are in Tambov forests?
        In modern times, Raduyev and Basaev are also your peasants?
    3. Poppy
      Poppy 17 January 2013 11: 39
      +1
      yes, left without anti-aircraft guns, for example sad
      1. Kubanets
        Kubanets 17 January 2013 13: 25
        0
        And the "raw" dynamo-rocket guns of Kurchevsky
  14. Georges14
    Georges14 17 January 2013 11: 06
    +9
    Of course, of course - the bloody tyrant is to blame. Whether it’s the matter - free democratic countries! In the spring of the 40th, 9 (!) Months after the outbreak of the war, the combined armies of France, Britain, Belgium and the Netherlands showed the whole world and, above all, stupid Soviet generals how to smash the Wehrmacht, and also demonstrated patterns of staunchness and heroism, defending impolite values. As well as the wisdom and foresight of their leaders.
    Unfortunately, the scoops have not learned anything. How scary to live in this country!
  15. BruderV
    BruderV 17 January 2013 11: 13
    0
    Once, in one broadcast, a grandfather who lived at that time said that the reasons for the failures in 41 lay in the people's dislike for the party and Stalin personally, and there was no question of any nationwide love. There are many reasons for this, including ideology itself and executions and collectivization. The population of the western regions, annexed by Poland and deprived of property in general, looked at the Germans as liberators. Therefore, they surrendered to the Germans in the 41st million. Yet they thought that everything would be civil as in the First World War, which recently passed without concentration camps and burned down villages. And when the understanding of the true goals of the "liberators" came, it became clear that it was better for Stalin. Yes, and think for yourself the orders not a step back and the fight against simulators and crossbows from the popular love for Stalin chtoli introduced?
    1. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets 17 January 2013 11: 45
      +3
      Quote: BruderV
      Once in one program, the grandfather who lived at that time declared

      Well, if the grandfather said ... He did not serve the Vlasovites?
      Quote: BruderV
      Nevertheless, they thought that everything would be civil like in the First World War, which recently passed without concentration camps and burned villages.

      My great-grandfather in World War I in the German camp was, quite uncomfortable, my grandmother told me.
      1. BruderV
        BruderV 17 January 2013 12: 06
        +1
        Quote: Vladimirets
        Well, if the grandfather said ... He did not serve the Vlasovites?

        He then seemed to be a child, once preserved to this day. And what is there in doubt? In this country, power is always on its own, and people on their own. And people always hate power. At the beginning of the 20th century, when there was no media, the people in the villages spoke a different language in general, not in the classic literary language that was in the books. The differences are approximately the same as Russian and Ukrainian today. On your example, evaluate that power is another planet for you. For example, how does the State Duma differ from the federal assembly and what functions do they have without Wikipedia? Who is sitting in the white house and what specific functions does it perform? Yes, no one knows, everyone does not care, it happens somewhere in another universe. All political life for the majority comes down to going to the mailbox once every four years, or even without it. There has never been a dialogue between the authorities and the people here. A few percent of the population has an idea of ​​how to carry it.
        1. wax
          wax 17 January 2013 14: 30
          -1
          Isn't that the grandfather that the Yeltsin coup welcomed?
        2. washi
          washi 18 January 2013 12: 57
          -1
          There has never been a dialogue between the authorities and the people
          you are mistaken. The dialogue was. Try not to react to the party organs, to all the scribe. It is stagnant. And under Stalin ,,,,
    2. wax
      wax 17 January 2013 14: 27
      0
      Lived? Or fought? Philosopher is a grandfather, yes by the glass. And where does the love for Stalin and the party? As for giving up, so not everyone giving up.
      In topic:
      http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?doc=134
      really curious.
  16. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 11: 23
    -4
    Quote: BigRiver
    What conflict on the CER was AFTER the purges?

    read the comments carefully.

    Quote: BigRiver
    Who are you quoting now? Whose opinion is this?

    I analyze it personally. And for acquaintance I suggest you read Smirnov, the military-industrial complex of the USSR of the 30s-40s, everything is perfectly visible and understandable there.
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 17 January 2013 11: 47
      +6
      Volkhov (1)
      As for Blucher then an indicator of damage from army cleaning is the actions of the Red Army in the conflict on the CER and Khalkhin Gol.

      Is that your phrase?

      ... I analyze this personally. And for acquaintance I suggest you read Smirnov, the military-industrial complex of the USSR in the 30s-40s, everything is perfectly visible and understandable there.

      It is wonderful that you not only analyze, but also read.
      And in combat training, organizational structure of the Red Army, support, rear services, logistics, etc., they read that thread. Sharing!

      OWL. SECRET
      SPECIAL IMPORTANCE
      ORDER TO THE MILITARY BALTICS OF THE BALTIC SPECIAL MILITARY DISTRICT №0052
      June 15, 1941 Riga
      Contents: To ensure the combat readiness of the district troops.

      A check of the combat readiness of the units of the okrug showed that some unit commanders have so far criminally failed to pay due attention to ensuring combat readiness and are not able to manage their units and units.

      Alert units, especially those in training or work, in the 90th Infantry Division have not worked out at all. The alarm gathering of the units of the division is not carried out correctly - entire regiments are lined up on the parade ground and stand still. Gathering is slow, disorganized, and without control. From the assembly site, the shelves are pulled along one narrow road. Traffic creates traffic jams. The readiness of the fighters of the 90th Infantry Division is poor - the satchels are not equipped, there is no water in the flasks, the equipment is not fitted.

      The materiel is not completely withdrawn - in the 286th rifle regiment, one regiment artillery gun, 4 anti-tank battery guns, one mortar remained in the camp, and 149 guns were left in the 8th howitzer artillery regiment. The distribution of products for daily allowance in the 286th Infantry Regiment was not made, and the soldiers did not have a daily allowance on hand.

      Units, leaving for work tens of kilometers from the camp’s location, don’t take their weapons and live ammunition in sealed boxes with them, the younger commanders enter the work areas without weapons (2nd battalion of the 286th infantry regiment). The commanders of the units of 90th Infantry Division of their areas of operations have not studied. There is criminal negligence and frivolity of senior bosses.
      ...
    2. Alex
      Alex 26 October 2013 22: 20
      +2
      Quote: WOLF
      I analyze it personally

      Where else can I find other examples of your in-depth analysis on other issues? Or are you only a specialist in Tukhachevsky?
  17. Bigriver
    Bigriver 17 January 2013 11: 47
    +3
    ...
    At the bilateral exercises of the units of the 125th Infantry Division, weak combat training of the 466th Infantry Regiment and other units of the 125th Infantry Division was revealed. The interaction of the combat arms and control is ugly low. The team is not able to navigate the terrain. At night he wanders, does not know how to control, runs around the battlefield instead of messengers. The regiment commander Major Garipov himself personally searched for more than two hours for the lost [8] vanguard battalion. He did not give the regiment a timely battle order. None of the commanders of the combat mission unit received from the regiment commander, so the regiment was not ready to start the combat mission in a timely manner. The command staff did not work out the actions of the blocking groups and is not able to organize monitoring of the battlefield.

    Especially poorly organized and reconnaissance.

    Defense in the presence in the district units of the bunker and bunker division is poorly developed. Units cannot cover bunkers and bunkers from being captured by their adversary. Night defense is especially poorly prepared.
    At night, field guards and secrets are not sent to the area where anti-tank obstacles and wires are located. Bunkers for night shooting are not adapted and are inactive at night.
    Communication with the bunker garrisons is not established, and no one directs their actions.

    The training of command personnel in parts of the 90th Infantry Division was not carried out during May - June. Directly guilty of this division commander Colonel Golubev, who made a gross mistake. It must be firmly understood that the participation of rifle battalions in defense operations gives unit commanders the opportunity to do more of their personal training and conduct more commanding exercises than is established.

    The indicated errors in the actions of the commanders of units and formations show that a considerable number of commanders live and work with the old vicious methods, completely not understanding the current international situation, not understanding the main thing, that today, more than ever, we must be in full combat readiness. This many commanders do not understand. But this must be firmly and clearly understood by all, for at any moment we must be ready to carry out any combat mission.

    Preparation is carried out without noise, calmly, secretively, but you need to work day and night, night and day. Always be on full alert. Each commander must know his position, prepare it and be fully prepared to defeat any enemy in this position.


    Further: I ORDER .., and much more.
    1. dievleha
      dievleha 17 January 2013 17: 25
      0
      And someone after this says that Pavlov was shot incorrectly, who, if not the commander, is responsible for their combat readiness
      1. Volkh
        Volkh 17 January 2013 20: 35
        +1
        So they were alert.
        1. dievleha
          dievleha 17 January 2013 22: 24
          0
          Do you call this a combat readiness? The personnel were ready what the personal losses of the Wehrmacht prove and the beginning of the staff ,,,,, as the experience of the USSR and the USA showed, no one was ready for a surprise attack, by the way, read for example about fort ebony emmanuel
  18. FIMUK
    FIMUK 17 January 2013 12: 17
    -5
    The article pleases continuous positive ...... what can I say 1941 is the most successful year of warfare for the Red Army.
    And there weren’t any losses at all; all the liberals came up with the finished ones. they specially lured him to Moscow and how they gave that they drove to the end of the war.
  19. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 12: 22
    0
    Quote: BigRiver
    It is wonderful that you not only analyze, but also read. And in combat training, organizational structure of the Red Army, support, rear services, logistics, etc., they read that thread. Sharing!

    Similarly -
    MORE MOBILITY, MORE MANEUVERABILITY.

    Our district did a great job tactically over the past year.

    We had achievements in the field of interaction between various branches of the armed forces. Artillery and infantry maintained a fairly competent communication. Found the basic methods of using artillery. Nevertheless, it must be said that the general tasks set by the Revolutionary Military Council in the sense of achieving the highest level of tactical art, achieving greater mobility, greater maneuverability - these tasks are not yet fully resolved. To develop maneuverable tactical art and great mobility - this is the cornerstone task of the current school year.

    Of the reasons that create the slowness of our movement, it should be noted that management is not always good enough.

    Slowness is largely determined by the movement of the infantry. Our infantry, in spite of the categorical requirements of an infantry charter, sometimes acts often as usual.

    The next defect of the infantry is the rupture of echelons, the delay of second echelons. This must be overcome. Special attention must also be paid to the organization of crossings.

    STRENGTHEN ATTENTION TO THE JUNIOR COMMANDER.

    I want to focus on the issue of the junior commander. Our training often rests precisely on this issue. We have many such cases when the Red Army man takes the initiative, moves forward, rushes when it can and should be done, and the separated commander shouts: stand, lie down, land. We also have cases when a platoon commander detains a squad leader, a company commander delays a platoon commander. Meanwhile, in modern tactics, the independence and initiative of a separate commander plays an absolutely exceptional role. Here we must direct all attention. In a number of our regimental schools, old training methods still flourish - a general theoretical approach instead of practical training.

    I must say that in terms of social composition, we could achieve better results. If it is right to talk about the insufficient use of the working layer for involvement in the party, then this primarily concerns the junior commander.

    INCREASE THE QUALITY OF TACTICAL TRAINING.

    Political bodies should be taken, as indicated by the Revolutionary Military Council of the Union, more active participation in the development of tactical training of our army. It is necessary to achieve full coordination, full interaction of the work of headquarters and political agencies. Political organs, party organizations must create such a public opinion that would provide the necessary conditions for the development of activity, courage, mobility. But in practice, we are faced with such a phenomenon when they laugh at a commander who, with a bold decision, failed. It is necessary to create a completely different environment.

    Only by combined forces, the right tactical setting and the sum of political measures will we achieve the resolution of the tasks in the field of tactical training that we are facing.

    RATIONALIZE WORK.

    Irrational working methods - these are the main bonds of our management. We have some kind of directive going through numerous instances, and this system is also transferred to field activities.

    We need to pay special attention to the selection of staff workers and the organization of staff work. Without a good management organization, we will not be able to organize high maneuverable tactics.

    * * *
  20. tverskoi77
    tverskoi77 17 January 2013 12: 26
    +2
    I believe that the essence is not in military issues, but in political ones.
    Imagine a situation if the Red Army in the early days of the war fights the Wehrmacht and begins an offensive to the west. Or the Red Army is working ahead of obvious aggression and June 20 successfully counterattack. What will happen?
    The USA and Great Britain will support the "red devil" or help their European neighbor. The second is obvious. And the situation that developed after the end of the war is only confirmation of this.
    1. Skavron
      Skavron 17 January 2013 13: 24
      +1
      Quote: tverskoi77
      US and UK will support the "red devil" or help their European neighbor

      Yah? Why on earth will Britain help the country with which it is fighting ??? This is against logic.
      And the United States and Britain did not like to help the obviously losing side.
      Really their rulers were going to be known as accomplices of fascism?
      1. tverskoi77
        tverskoi77 17 January 2013 16: 09
        0
        This is against military logic, but not against political views.
        You think too well of them, maybe they didn’t want to be known as beasts of the colonialists, or as they say now, democratizers with peaceful bombing. As we see everything is completely wrong. Our war allies immediately became enemies, and the Wehrmacht and SS veterans peacefully roam the streets of their European cities.
        PS there is such an expression: he is of course a loan, but he is our loan)
        PPS Russia has always been an enemy of Europe, tsarist, Soviet or present - it does not matter, mind you.
        1. Skavron
          Skavron 17 January 2013 16: 14
          0
          Quote: tverskoi77
          PPS Russia has always been an enemy of Europe, tsarist, Soviet or present - it does not matter, mind you.

          I do not argue with that.
          BUT! At that time, neither Britain nor the United States would become Hitler's allies.
          Neither politically nor militarily.
          And the fact that you brought AFTER the war, so Mr. Churchill did not really like Soviet Russia, and considered himself an ardent anti-communist. BUT fought on the side of the Communists.
          1. tverskoi77
            tverskoi77 18 January 2013 11: 03
            0
            BUT! At that time, neither Britain nor the United States would become Hitler's allies.

            If the Red Army began to smash Germany, at the initial stage of the war, then the rest of Europe would fall under its hammers. And there would be, subsequently, not the Warsaw Pact, but for example the Paris)))
            England in the first place would protect itself from the aggressor, which she did by helping the USSR. But who would be the aggressor in a different military situation in 41 years, of course the USSR.
            1. Skavron
              Skavron 18 January 2013 15: 22
              0
              Quote: tverskoi77
              But who would be the aggressor in a different military situation in 41 years, of course the USSR.

              Actually, the aggressor at that time was ALREADY Hitler.
              1. tverskoi77
                tverskoi77 18 January 2013 16: 20
                0
                Actually, the aggressor at that time was ALREADY Hitler

                Correctly say, for you and for me it is clear who the aggressor is, but for the Anglo-Saxons there are no such concepts. Vasily (Vasya) hit the mark
                Nothing personal just business.

                They do not care who the true aggressor is: business and personal skin, these are their priorities.
                Try to think from their point of view.
                1. Skavron
                  Skavron 18 January 2013 22: 06
                  0
                  I’m trying ... so somehow it turns out that the German submarine fleet practically blocked Britain, while the air fleet delivered strikes + war in Africa. Let by our standards and ridiculous, but by their great ... so think.
                2. Alex
                  Alex 26 October 2013 22: 30
                  +2
                  Quote: tverskoi77
                  They do not care who the true aggressor is: business and personal skin, these are their priorities.
                  Try to think from their point of view.

                  And here it is not necessary to try much. The phrase "England does not have eternal friends and eternal enemies. And Angia only has eternal interests" has always been an indicator of British politics. And Churchill in 1940 to the USSR Ambassador In London, I. Maisky, said even more frankly: "The British Empire for me is the alpha and omega of my life. Now Hitler is a greater danger to her than anything else, and I will go to an alliance even with the devil himself in order to shield Britain from him. " Comments are superfluous. You can count on such people only without having brains at all.
          2. washi
            washi 18 January 2013 13: 08
            +1
            BUT! At that time, neither Britain nor the United States would become Hitler's allies.
            Sorry, dear, but what about the businesses that belonged to the United States and Britain. Nothing personal just business. USA until 1944 supplied the Reich through neutrals
      2. dievleha
        dievleha 17 January 2013 17: 30
        0
        and the "strange" war is somehow included in this logic request
        1. Skavron
          Skavron 17 January 2013 22: 48
          0
          Quote: dievleha
          and the "strange" war is somehow included in this logic

          Well, if the war at sea and in the air is "strange", then so be it.
          1. dievleha
            dievleha 17 January 2013 23: 52
            +1
            Well, if the war at sea and in the air is "strange", then so be it. Duck 9 months of confrontation from September 3, 1939 to May 9, 1940 in the west, this is what the war was called smile Well if IT can be called a war wink
      3. washi
        washi 18 January 2013 13: 03
        +1
        In Britain, the Nazi party was strong. it included members of the royal family. and if we take into account the fact that the bulk of German industry belonged to Anglo-Saxon Jewish capital ...
        1. Skavron
          Skavron 18 January 2013 15: 25
          0
          Quote: Vasya
          that the bulk of German industry


          Yeah ... and this industry was bombed by all and sundry.

          Vasya, you will agree so soon that the British created volunteer units and sent to help Hitler)))))))))
          You are funny writing a story. You would be in science fiction ...
          1. tverskoi77
            tverskoi77 18 January 2013 16: 25
            0
            Yeah ... and this industry was bombed by all and sundry.

            Why did the British drop bombs on historic city centers and residential quarters, and not actively bombard industrial zones?
            1. Skavron
              Skavron 18 January 2013 20: 42
              0
              They were all actively bombing ... just the industrial zones were better covered, so I did not want to risk the Angicki asses once again
          2. washi
            washi 20 January 2013 13: 09
            0
            The Britons bombed the city blocks. Amer bombed the prom. enterprises, but selectively. Read memoirs, at least
        2. Alex
          Alex 26 October 2013 22: 38
          +2
          Quote: Vasya
          the bulk of German industry belonged to Anglo-Saxon Jewish capital

          There is an excellent book "German generals with and without Hitler", which provides a complete analysis of the ties of German industrial capital with Anglo-American partners. For some enterprises, even the percentage of shareholders' participation of the parties is indicated. So no one was going to spoil their own good. When Dresden was wiped off the face of the earth, there was not a single serious raid on the Krupp factories.
    2. Volkh
      Volkh 17 January 2013 19: 52
      -1
      On what grounds would they help their western neighbor? They would have to say to the whole world that they are cannibals, and then the whole world would simply be divided into 2 camps. The axis and allies.
      1. dievleha
        dievleha 17 January 2013 20: 14
        +2
        and on what grounds did they not help Poland without explaining anything to the world smile
        1. Volkh
          Volkh 17 January 2013 20: 33
          -1
          Poland fell in 16 days, the reason is this.
          1. dievleha
            dievleha 17 January 2013 20: 59
            0
            On May 15, 1939, a Polish-French protocol was signed, according to which the French promised to launch an offensive within the next two weeks after mobilization. Article One of the Anglo-Polish Agreement on Mutual Assistance read: “If one of the Parties to the Treaty is drawn into hostilities with the European the state by aggression, which was the last against the indicated Party to the Treaty, the other Party to the Treaty will immediately provide the Party to the Treaty involved in the hostilities with all the support and assistance necessary from it. ”This is Wikipedia, it immediately stretched something too long, don’t you find?
            1. Volkh
              Volkh 17 January 2013 21: 41
              -2
              Quote: dievleha
              On May 15, 1939, a Polish-French protocol was signed, according to which the French promised to launch an offensive within the next two weeks after mobilization

              darling, can you read and understand?
              1. dievleha
                dievleha 17 January 2013 23: 02
                0
                I understand that in the article of the treaty there is a word immediately, name at least one of the articles of assistance except the moral one that Great Britain observed, and in 2 weeks the number 16 clearly does not fit, you do not find that until April 9, 1940 this "help" all continued and continued belay
          2. Alex
            Alex 26 October 2013 22: 46
            +2
            Quote: WOLF
            Poland fell in 16 days, the reason is this.

            And how many divisions were mobilized during this time? How many of them were put forward to the borders of the Ruhr industrial region - the arsenal of Germany? How many air raids were made during this time in Germany (Berlin in 1939 was much easier to get than in 1941)? How many English ships from the brilliant Grand Fleet went to the shores of Germany and how many landing ships then approached them? The answer to all these questions is one - zero!

            The reason is not that Poland fell in three weeks. If Hitler had even a shadow of fear that England and France would defend Poland, he would not even have dared to start a war, which was named after this the Second World War. But even in the summer, two months before the start, he said: "I want to fight. I saw these cowardly pigs in Munich, they will not lift a finger to help Poland." So where was the fate of Poland decided? In Warsaw? Or London, Paris and Berlin?

            I think you should remember the phrase: "The one who wants to do is looking for a way; the one who does not want is an excuse." Does it remind you of anything in your reasoning and justifications of the Franco-Angles?
  21. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 12: 28
    -1
    All areas of training — rifle, tactical, control — can naturally produce favorable results only when we work on the basis of a well-educated, politically motivated Red Army social activist. Our Red Army man shows the greatest endurance, he is not very demanding, but that is why it is necessary to ensure an extremely attentive attitude towards him, not to squander the fuse of his energy, the stock of his moral recovery, which is so necessary in battle.

    Modern warfare requires too much heroism, too much tension, so that this stock of moral strength could be squandered due to insufficient care, due to insufficient agility. I think the command staff understands this perfectly. The commanding staff understands that it is impossible to conduct our disciplinary practice through arrests and orders alone. It is necessary everywhere to achieve the full implementation of all the directives of the Political Administration and the Revolutionary Military Council on this subject.

    A unanimous unification of all forces, focusing on the issue of tactical training, the greatest attention to this from the entire commanding staff, from political agencies and party organizations will help us raise our district to a high level of combat readiness and tactical art.

    (The Red Star, January 15, 1929)

    Military training

    (From a report by Commander of the LVO Comrade Tukhachevsky)
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 17 January 2013 13: 58
      0
      Volkhov (1)
      ... (From a report by Commander of the LVO Comrade Tukhachevsky)

      What is the relation between the ideological and organizational calls of the 29th year to the real state of the Red Army in 1941?

      I will continue on the topic ...

      A few years ago, Doctor of Historical Sciences Rostislav Platonov opened in the archives of the first secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolsheviks) Panteleimon Ponomarenko (with the beginning of the war approved as a member of the Military Council of the Western Front) an analytical note "On some important issues of the war" addressed to the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) personally to Stalin.
      Major Petrov, the author of the document, the chief of the operations department of the headquarters of the Western Special Front, explained in an accompanying paper why he was addressing "not on a direct command line." In early July 1941, Major Petrov regarded the Secretary of the Belarusian Central Committee as the only possible transfer authority on the way to Stalin. And I think it’s clear why.
      Ponomarenko, unfortunately buried the document in the bowels of his office.
      Petrov made an analysis of the causes of failure at the front.
      Some excerpts:

      “The headquarters of the corps, armies, and fronts are unusually inflated, and THREE QUARTERS OF PEOPLE hang out, find no work for themselves. Example: the front Air Force headquarters totals 283 people, of which 36 people. photometrists, at a time when you can get around 3-4 people. 15 people, cryptographers, were brought into the headquarters of the Air Force front, but they cost four. Front management totals more than one thousand people. There is not enough transport for these headquarters, and when the redeployment begins (read “retreat.” - SK) of the headquarters several kilometers in depth, many hundreds of vehicles go and carry the entire rear.
      ... In parts, they are extremely nervous about the possibility of an environment. The will of the commanders and the actions of units are paralyzed in many cases immediately after the imagination created a picture of the environment, although the actual tactical environment of our formations almost never happened. The so-called environments in almost all cases look as follows: in the rear of the active compound or units, seeping enemy groups are determined. Imagination begins to complement the strength of the enemy. The connection between the parts is broken, and no one is trying to restore it, considering this circumstance normal in the environment. The exit from the environment or of individual parts and groups, or by individuals, begins.
      Most of all, the staffs and commanders who managed to be surrounded in Western Belarus are afraid of encirclement. HQS ALWAYS Bounce back, losing control and communication with the troops.
      1. Volkh
        Volkh 17 January 2013 19: 59
        0
        What conclusion should I draw? The fact that 32 photographers should go to the forefront and others like them?
        It’s nonsense to waste such shots in vain, they are bad soldiers but good specialists.
      2. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 18 January 2013 02: 11
        0
        Quote: BigRiver
        In the early days of July 1941, Major Petrov regarded the Secretary of the Belarusian Central Committee as the only possible transfer authority on the way to Stalin.

        No matter how a little wrong, Petrov handed the analyst to Mehlis:
        “Comrade Army Commissioner 1 rank.
        The desire to see the speedy implementation of my proposals prompted me
        contact you, not a direct command line.
        The whole content of my appeal is mainly known to you without my
        letters, but still I considered it my duty to write and send it to you.
        If you consider my appeal deserving of attention, I will ask you to report on its contents to comrade. Stalin, because similar facts and shortcomings are inherent, unfortunately, not only on the Western Front.
        Major Petrov.
        Oper. Headquarters Division Front.
        Gnezdovo 7.7.41 g. "

        What did the Mehlis do in July on the Western Front to remind, I hope, is not necessary.
        Further, everything indicates that Mehlis handed them to Ponomarenko before his departure back to Moscow.
        Quote: BigRiver
        Ponomarenko, unfortunately buried the document in the bowels of his office.

        It’s also not true, Ponomarenko handed the note:
        "The Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolsheviks) of Belarus
        3 September 1941 of
        Comrade Beria. Please read the note sent by my friend
        To Stalin.
        Ponomarenko. "
        1. Bigriver
          Bigriver 18 January 2013 07: 48
          0
          Aleksys2
          Thank you!
  22. Black
    Black 17 January 2013 12: 39
    -1
    Quote: AK-74-1
    There were absolutely objective reasons for what happened in 1941-1942, these are:
    suddenness;
    the absolute and suicidal adventurism of the fascists, which sensible people cannot calculate;
    the result of surprise shattered the destruction of communication systems;
    the result of surprise was a violation of the principle of concentration of newly formed units, that is, military personnel in a different place, and material resources in echelons in another place.


    1. There was no suddenness. intelligence, both strategic and military, literally trumpeted the impending attack, despite the mortal danger of even thinking differently from the Leader.
    2. Hitler's adventurism was not. With the success of the blitzkrieg - victory, delay, postponement - certain death, Hitler had no other option. He did not take into account only that Russia is not France.
    3. The destruction of communications. And what, someone promised not to tear the wires? Someone canceled the sabotage war in the rear as contrary to international law? This is the result of 37 years!
    4. We are here, boots in Odessa, from the same opera.


    No one sprinkles ashes on their heads, but the causes of the disaster of 41 years need to be learned and remembered.
    1. AK-74-1
      AK-74-1 17 January 2013 14: 00
      +3
      Have you ever seen the part of Europe occupied by the Nazis? Compare its territory with the territory of the USSR. If, after such a comparison, you still think that a blitzkrieg was possible against the USSR, then probably we need to go to different places for me to work, and you need to go to Kashchenko or into a noose. For the "great" and "not adventurous" Fuhrer himself has already proved everything to everyone. It was easier for him to become a suicide.
      About the intelligence and political background of World War II, it is better to turn to the traitor Rezun and his opponent Starikov. These 2 figures sometimes make the right judgment.
      All counter measures are secondary to the actions of the counterpart. In order to carry out counter-sabotage measures, it is necessary to identify areas of sabotage, determine their nature, etc. watch an interesting film on this topic, called "Special attention". The ineffectiveness of counter-sabotage measures in the first hours is not a consequence of the purges of the 37th year, but is a consequence of the destruction of communication systems, the destruction or seizure of guards, etc.
      1. Black
        Black 17 January 2013 17: 38
        +2
        Quote: AK-74-1
        Have you ever seen the part of Europe occupied by the Nazis? Compare its territory with the territory of the USSR. If, after such a comparison, you still think that a blitzkrieg was possible against the USSR, then probably we need to go to different places for me to work, and you need to go to Kashchenko or into a noose. For the "great" and "not adventurous" Fuhrer himself has already proved everything to everyone. It was easier for him to become a suicide.

        You are not a doctor, I am not a patient, and I do not need to make a diagnosis.
        About blitzkrieg and about the territory. I looked at the map, I had to. The entire industrial potential of Europe was painted in brown !!! Or do you think that the total potential of the whole of Europe was weaker than the potential of the USSR?
        1. Hitler was not going to go to Vladivostok. The industrial areas of the European part, the oil of the Caucasus ... there was nothing special to do beyond the Urals.
        2. Any other army, except the Russian, after such a blow would have collapsed.
        3. Hitler hoped for Turkey and Japan to enter the war, and for that he had good hopes.
        4. Hoping for eternal disagreements between the USSR and England, Hitler did not count on an early coalition. If the Japanese hadn’t done a dirty trick at Pearl Harbor, I think the States would have looked from the side for a long time.
        5. Hitler in 41 did not wage a total war, but what if ???
        They say that politics is the art of the possible, Germany had the chance of a successful war. The General Staff of the Third Reich is not stupider than you.

        Go to work.
        1. AK-74-1
          AK-74-1 17 January 2013 17: 52
          +1
          You can talk about potential. The Second World War is still a war of the rear in the first place. And here I would draw your attention to Romania.
          Hitler agreed with the British and sent them hostages to Hess, this is the only assumption that explains the fact of the beginning of the war with the USSR in general and the very beginning at the end of June. This also explains the plans of the British bombing of the Baku oil fields, attempts to squeeze our troops out of Iran and attempts to land troops in Yugoslavia. With such allies, enemies are not needed.
          The adventurer received the most favorable conditions. But got in touch with Russia.
          And the last "you need to be a very brave person in order to be a coward in the Red Army" or "Russian must first be killed and then knocked down." This is for your 2nd statement.
          1. Black
            Black 17 January 2013 18: 08
            0
            I agree. The arguments you cited just say that Germany had rather high chances.
            1. AK-74-1
              AK-74-1 17 January 2013 18: 22
              0
              The fact of the matter is that May 9, 1945 proves the utopianism and suicidal nature of the views of the Fuhrer. There is an interesting book by the traitor Rezun "Suicide" throw out all the anti-Soviet rhetoric and get a fairly accurate analysis of the Soviet military intelligence officer. The situation is similar with Rezun's "Purification". Moreover, throwing out anti-Soviet rhetoric and at the same time taking into account the book "Who made Hitler attack Stalin" we get a very interesting picture.
              1. Black
                Black 17 January 2013 21: 39
                0
                I read Suvorov. The only "interesting picture" there is that he believes that it is the USSR that stands at the origins of the outbreak of the war. "M day", and so on. There is no analysis, there is simply a murderous desire to present us as de facto aggressors.
          2. Kubanets
            Kubanets 17 January 2013 23: 34
            0
            Dear AK-74-1 And you can learn more about the landing in Yugoslavia. Without a shadow of irony, the general course for
    2. Kubanets
      Kubanets 17 January 2013 23: 10
      0
      Can I enter into controversy? Intelligence reports. Trumpet (in your words) about what? The date of aggression has not been established. The reason is not clear. Is Adventure worth believing in person. It was normal to expect the main blow of the invasion of Ukraine. Neither the leadership of the USSR nor the General Staff suggested that Hitler was prettier than the Belarusian forests and bolts than the black soil of Ukraine and the coal of Donbass. Because the main grouping was in the south
  23. Andy
    Andy 17 January 2013 13: 04
    +1
    Two abandoned Soviet heavy tanks KV-2. The towers are in a stowed position

    author, is it a sideways gun ???
  24. deman73
    deman73 17 January 2013 13: 41
    +5
    maybe it’s enough for everyone to be clever and argue how badly we fought, what fools fathers are commanders, and so on. I’m looking for clever people. I divorced a lot. respect our country and I'm proud of it
    1. igordok
      igordok 17 January 2013 16: 03
      0
      Without 41 year would not be 45.
  25. Alekseev
    Alekseev 17 January 2013 13: 57
    0
    Why did the tragic events of 1941 happen?
    Most concisely and accurately, in my opinion, of course, G.K. Zhukov answered in his famous interview with K. Simonov. He was brought on this site more than once.
    And, more simply, the reason is complex. The USSR and the Red Army were inferior to Germany and the Wehrmacht in all respects. Or, more precisely, by most indicators determining the military power of the state.
    And no Tukhachevsky (the main merit - fought on the side of the Bolsheviks), etc. would not have helped radically.
    Only the possibilities of a huge country (and the help of the allies, it cannot be discounted either), the strength of the spirit of the Russian people allowed the "long", as Zhukov said, "process" to take place. The process that brought our army to Berlin.
    1. Skavron
      Skavron 17 January 2013 14: 31
      0
      Quote: Alekseev
      The USSR and the Red Army were inferior to Germany and the Wehrmacht in all respects.

      ohhhhhh! !!!!
      At what articles ???
      Quote: Alekseev
      Or, more precisely, by most indicators determining the military power of the state.

      There were probably not enough tanks, planes - coffins, soldiers not trained, generals stupid ...
      And what else to say to the chief of the General Staff - driving through Nazi aggression? Only blame others.
      1. BruderV
        BruderV 17 January 2013 15: 00
        0
        Quote: Skavron
        There were probably not enough tanks, planes - coffins, soldiers not trained, generals stupid ...

        In terms of armament, there was mainly parity, and even superiority, although in some places they were inferior in quality, especially in aviation. And there was no catastrophe with the officers, Khalkhin-Gol confirmation of this, they wanted and could win. The main reason is that this army, comparable to the German one, was spread all over the country with an even layer from Brest to Vladivostok instead of concentrating on the border, so the Germans plowed to Moscow itself. If they had met the deeply echeloned defense of the entire army at the border in normal readiness, then they would not have been able to go deep. And so they fought on the border with a few border guards and moved on to unprepared divisions to crush in the rear. All the blame on the high command, which failed at least at the right time to concentrate the army on the border.
        1. Skavron
          Skavron 17 January 2013 15: 20
          0
          Quote: BruderV
          All the blame on the high command.

          But I completely agree with this, everything else in your comment is nonsense
          1. BruderV
            BruderV 17 January 2013 15: 27
            +1
            Well, get your numbers on how many troops were concentrated by the beginning of the war directly in the border areas on our and German sides. It is impossible to stop a numerically superior opponent with the same technical level of equipment. This is the main miscalculation. And ignorance of the command of what to do next when the war began is already a consequence.
            1. Skavron
              Skavron 17 January 2013 15: 39
              0
              http://bdsa.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=5&id=21&Item
              id = 151

              look here.
              1. BruderV
                BruderV 17 January 2013 16: 12
                0
                Thank you for the broken link, but I would recommend reading this. http://www.rkka.ru/drig/raz/predist.htm All that is, the tanks are spread throughout the country, with the rest of the troops the same thing. There were 40% of the total number of aviation in the border zone, and then new airfields were not built for it. What am I wrong about?
                1. Skavron
                  Skavron 17 January 2013 16: 46
                  0
                  Quote: BruderV
                  Thanks for the broken link

                  Yes HZ, it works for me

                  http://bdsa.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=5&id=21&Item
                  id = 151
                  Try to enter only the main address, and there you will figure it out)
                  1. BruderV
                    BruderV 17 January 2013 18: 32
                    0
                    Well, I did not find data on this site with a comparison of the number of our and German troops directly in the border zone on June 22. There is only a tablet where it is indicated that there were 2 million people on all fronts in the western direction (doubtful), while there were 5 million Germans in this direction. Again, I confirm my words.
                    1. Skavron
                      Skavron 17 January 2013 18: 50
                      0
                      There are even maps showing the exact location of divisions
                2. Alex
                  Alex 26 October 2013 23: 55
                  +2
                  BruderV, your link also doesn't work, which is understandable. Therefore, I will give you a link to the book: "Front illustration", 2001, No. 4, p.26, table 5 "Information about the combat strength of the ground forces of the Red Army as of June 1, 1941". It contains such data on tanks (they interest you very much): out of a total of 25932 units (just right away, let's not hysterics about "light and obsolete" and other nonsense - Hitler also did not have all the "Abrams") Western districts (LVO, PribVO, KOVO, ZAPOVOi ODVO) 13981 tanks (54%). If it is "spread all over the country" against the entire German "armada" of 3, then I am a Spanish pilot.
        2. Alex
          Alex 26 October 2013 23: 41
          +2
          Quote: BruderV
          The main reason is that this army comparable with the German one was spread all over the country with an even layer from Brest to Vladivostok instead of concentrating on the border

          Mil-man, have you ever looked at a map? Yes, there on the border there is such a darkness of troops that it ripples in the eyes. And this is not only in quantity. Of the 27 mechanized corps (the main strike force of the Red Army) - 22 in the border districts: LenVO - 2, Pribovo - 2, ZAPOVO - 6, KOVO - 10, OdVO - 2. ALL heavy tanks are on the western border, ALL T-34 are in the same place. All front-line aviation is also there (because of this, it was hit by the Luftwaffe. Or do you think they reached Vladivostok?). 50 armies branch out in the border zone with a width of 70-16 km (most of them are ZAPOVO, KOVO, PribOVO, a little less - OdVO and LVO). In Vladivostok (FEF), only 4 armies are forces against Japan.

          And so they fought on the border with a few border guards and moved on to unprepared divisions to crush in the rear.

          Your match does not agree well with the memoirs of K.S. Moskalenko. He just had to face one of the most titled armies of the Wehrmacht - the 6th, the very "conqueror of capitals", which in a year and a half at Stalingrad turned into a zbori of walking corpses. But even then, in warm Ukraine, their offensive schedules and plans to seize cities and towns were chronically inconsistent with the real state of affairs. And if Pavlov was in control in Belarus and lied to the Lubyanka, then Kirponos died heroically in Ukraine, but did not give a victory march to "crush the divisions." So read the cards (not playing, but military), it helps.
      2. Alekseev
        Alekseev 17 January 2013 16: 00
        0
        Quote: Skavron
        ohhhhhh! !!!!
        At what articles ???

        Yes, they did not know how to manage, make and operate high-quality weapons and equipment (just remember the command post of the KV tank, or the fact that the T-34 was sometimes filled with gasoline), the commanders were often afraid to take the initiative after the recent massive repressions. They didn’t know how to fight, in one word. Finally, what kind of "articles" came up?
        And the country’s army is prepared for aggression not only by the chief of the General Staff, but as you will know, a "group of comrades" from a worker of a defense plant and a peasant to the head of state.
        Each in his role, of course.
        1. Skavron
          Skavron 17 January 2013 16: 22
          0
          Quote: Alekseev
          not one chief of the General Staff, but you will know, a "group of comrades" from a worker of a defense plant and a peasant to the head of state.

          mdya ... the peasant and the worker with us plans for the coming war.

          Well, not one chief of the General Staff, but with subordinates, then for a report to the Supreme.
          All personal responsibility lies primarily with MANUAL !!! This is an axiom !!! If the leader blames his guilt for disrupting something, not even necessarily in the army, then NEED TO PUSE SUCH LEADERS IN THE NECK !!!
          Quote: Alekseev
          just remember the KP KV tank, or the fact that the T-34

          Suffice it to recall the German counterparts KV and T-34 in June 41st
    2. vyatom
      vyatom 17 January 2013 14: 58
      +1
      So why was the Wehrmacht stronger than the Red Army? I won’t understand Zhukov? Is it not for this that he was put on the General Staff in order to bring this very army to a level better than the German. After all, we did not have a Versailles treaty, like the Germans did. We have all the resources, the industry is very powerful. so why are we worse. fish rots from the head - one answer
      1. Skavron
        Skavron 17 January 2013 15: 13
        0
        There above AK-74-1 has already unsubscribed. I agree with him.
    3. Volkh
      Volkh 17 January 2013 20: 07
      -4
      Quote: Alekseev
      And no Tukhachevsky (the main merit - fought on the side of the Bolsheviks), etc. would not have helped radically.

      as Vasilyevsky said above, be Tukhachevsky, there might not have been a war.
      Incidentally, in 1935, when traveling to England, he talked with the generals there, and in France de Gaulle, he met in acquaintances.
      But Voroshilov for some reason could not agree with the Angles in 1939, and the delegation flew back.
      1. Cheloveck
        Cheloveck 18 January 2013 00: 27
        0
        Quote: WOLF
        By the way, in 1935, when traveling to England, he talked with the generals there, and in France de Gaulle, he met in acquaintances. But Voroshilov for some reason could not agree with the Angles in 1939, and the delegation flew back.
        I will tell you the secret of secrets: neither Tukhachevsky nor Voroshilov could agree on anything with the British (and to the heap and the French), at least for the simple reason that neither of them had the necessary powers.
        The conclusion of the agreements is the prerogative of the government, on behalf of which either Molotov (head of government) or Litvinov (people's commissar of foreign affairs) could speak, but not the people's commissar of defense, let alone his deputy.
        In addition, on April 17, 1939, Moscow proposed concluding an Anglo-French-Soviet mutual assistance agreement, negotiations on which began already on August 12.
        It immediately became clear that the French delegation, led by General J. Dumenk, had authority only to negotiate, but not to sign the agreement, and the British delegation, headed by Admiral Reginald Drax, did not have written authority at all.
        / Year of the crisis, 1938-1939: Documents and materials ... V.2. S.192,193. /
        A reasonable question arises: what does Tukhachevsky have to do with it?
        With what magic could he organize the powers of the Angles with the Franks?
        "The British government does not want to be drawn into any definite obligation that could tie our hands under any circumstances. Therefore, with regard to a military agreement, one should strive to limit itself to as general as possible" / ibid., S. 169 /
      2. Alex
        Alex 27 October 2013 02: 12
        +2
        Volkh, you either do ... ak, or a provocateur. Or, even worse, you have nothing to do and you are simply joking. If you still do not know how the negotiations in Moscow took place on the 1939, and on what occasion Tukhachevsky went to England on the 1935, then there’s nothing to talk about with you at all. However, the color of your epaulettes clearly speaks of your role in this forum: you are a masochist who likes to be carved. However, I am not a sadist and I am not going to deliver such pleasure to you or myself anymore.
  26. Bigriver
    Bigriver 17 January 2013 14: 01
    0
    Continued ...

    ... In the armies, there are relatively few executions, but commissars and commanders of all degrees threaten this with the slightest complication, who needs and who does not need, not only individuals, but also groups, is an example of harmful political work. The most severe actions, if applied improperly, turn into the opposite according to the results. It’s BETTER TO SHOOT ONE as a warning to others than to threaten it all. ”
    And here are the mistakes in the tactics of military operations: “Weak maneuverability. The Germans are transporting soldiers in cars. For a week they manage to transfer the division to 2-3 places, the soldiers do not get tired. We have a huge amount of vehicles loaded with what is needed and what is not needed, but the transfer of the division is a whole problem, and the divisions are mostly marching. The Red Army men are fatally tired, sleeping right under artillery fire. They are introduced into fights right after the marches, without having time to rest. In addition, the soldiers are overloaded with clothes.
    FIGHTERS DO NOT LIKE TO DROP IN THE FULL PROFILE. They make pits, cling to branches and therefore are little held. In addition, they are digging solitary shelters. A fighter does not feel the shoulder of a neighbor and is afraid. Looking out, does not see anyone, leaves, thinking that others have left, and captivates others.
    The Germans work a lot, even advancing. Buried at stops, buried artillery, tanks, gasoline, aircraft - all that is possible. This gives greater stability to the defense.

    yet...

    ... The enemy leads the offensive, as a rule, along good roads, while acting very maneuverable. We have not yet been opposed to this tactic, and the actions of our troops are continuing in the old fashion, with a uniform saturation of all borders.
    ... As a result of a weak mutual understanding of aviation and infantry and vice versa, the concern for each other’s actions is weak: the infantry does not designate its front line of defense, nor are the columns designated. One of these circumstances that impede efficient operation is the lack of radio communications in aviation. As a result, the delay in reporting on targets and the delay in bombing missions, the inefficiency of aviation operations along the leading edge, since planes appear often late for their targets, it is not possible to determine where their leading edge and the enemy are due to changes.

    Observations about reconnaissance and work with prisoners are interesting:
    “Prisoners are processed mainly from the moral and political side and unusually humane. The most valuable thing is to receive from the prisoner either a call to comrades, or testimony about the poor condition of the German army. Valuable combat information is not obtained mainly because combined arms commanders, as a rule, DO NOT interrogate captured prisoners and officers, do not seek to obtain from them the combat information necessary for units. ”
    Major Petrov also noted indicators of changes in our army after the first two weeks of the war:
    “Cases of flight of units become rarer, and units are easily restored and go back into battle. The bitterness of the fighters is growing, and ATTACKS ARE BEAST. Example: the battle for Gomel and the loss of the Germans. The wounded go to the sanitary facility and carry weapons, thousands of rifles are assembled, before, as a rule, they were thrown. The units that were surrounded, fight and break through to their own, causing great damage to the enemy (63rd Corps, 45th).
    The vast majority of letters written by our fighters are patriotic, indicate an increase in bitterness towards the enemy and speak of confidence in victory, encourage friends and relatives in the rear. No more than 0,2% of letters are alarmist and cowardly ... "



    Ponomarenko, as was said, did not endorse the text of the memorandum, which should have been of undoubted interest for the party and military leadership of the USSR. Obviously, there was an unwillingness to confront the commanders of the fronts, with military intelligence, with the highest political organs, and also the emerging official propaganda review of the causes of lesions.
  27. nnz226
    nnz226 17 January 2013 14: 28
    +3
    Well, there was no such blissful picture as in the article either! Boilers alone with 4 million prisoners, then there were also enough deaths for 2/3! And if the encirclement of the first months could not be avoided (although with the withdrawal of the main troops from the border by 50-60 km, the losses would have been less), then the Vyazemsky cauldron or the encirclement of the South-Western Front on such a scale already raises questions: in war they learn quickly, but here 3-4 months of fighting and the result - "in the same cashier." 3 months for learning the strategy and tactics of the Wehrmacht was not enough ?! This means that the students are bad! (Episode of the film "Battle for Moscow": when Zhukov "excuses" Konev from being shot for the catastrophe of the Western Front and says: "All the same tactics of strikes on the flanks ..." It is clear that the film is from the 90s, but the thoughts are Should the front commander be? It's not June 22, but October in the courtyard! Couldn't take care of reconnaissance?) About aviation: already tired of the numbers of the quantitative advantage of Soviet aircraft, but by October the Germans did not dismount from the sky on all fronts. That the 3-fold superiority in aircraft has been lost in air battles ?! Then the leadership of the Air Force is specifically to blame for the lack of combat training (even the level of peacetime) among the "Stalin's falcons".
    In general, our grandfathers and great-grandfathers - bow to this VICTORY!
  28. wax
    wax 17 January 2013 14: 37
    +1
    Captured Germans from the very beginning of the war - does this mean anything?
  29. jimm RAINOR
    jimm RAINOR 17 January 2013 15: 02
    0
    Quote: WOLF
    And what is he to blame for yours? The fact that he fought heroically in a civilian fashion with white generals? Or that we got an excellent army thanks to his work. If for this you are an enemy of the people wink


    Well, thanks to him, we almost got one continuous army ... without civilian production and with destroyed agriculture ......))))
    1. Volkh
      Volkh 17 January 2013 22: 35
      -1
      Quote: Jimm RAINOR
      Well, thanks to him, we almost got one continuous army ... without civilian production and with destroyed agriculture ......))))

      read this twosome - http://militera.lib.ru/research/simonov_ns/index.html
      and then show your knowledge in public on the topic.
  30. Oidsoldier
    Oidsoldier 17 January 2013 15: 35
    -1
    The Second World War is too large an event to give answers to all questions in one article. As for 1941, any sober person perceives the beginning of the war as a catastrophe and defeat of the Red Army. The only moment that could justify those events was if there was a plan for a war with Germany designed for 4 years, according to which the enemy surrendered most of the country, it was supposed to leave millions of encircled groups, create an almost complete army again and push the enemy away from Moscow. But such a plan in nature did not and could not be. The enemy revealed all the weaknesses of the Union and imposed its will.
    The question of who is to blame needs analysis at all levels of preparation for war and the conduct of hostilities themselves. There can be hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people guilty, only the degree of this guilt is different. The analysis can be done to prepare for war at the level of international politics, domestic politics, arming and rearmament of the army, preparing plans for the event of war, training the army, intelligence and counterintelligence and much more. After all, there are documents by which it is possible to determine whether one or another defensive or offensive operation is correctly calculated, whether there are enough forces and means involved, etc. And how were the orders and instructions for this operation carried out by subordinates, why they did not fulfill their tasks. If they have been given an impossible task, it’s understandable that the commander is guilty, and if the conditional unit has not completed the task due, for example, to poor fire training of shooters and gunners, then many performers are to blame.
  31. ng1941
    ng1941 17 January 2013 15: 37
    0
    "However, a number of experts claim that on June 18, 1941, Zhukov sent telegrams to the commanders of the five western districts about the possibility of a German attack and instructions to bring the entrusted troops to full combat readiness."
    And on June 21 or 22, he sent an order "not to succumb to provocations"? How shoud I understand this?
    "There is a widespread theory that Stalin was preparing in the strictest secrecy a plan for the invasion of Soviet troops into Western Europe. According to this, the fascist troops simply outstripped the Soviet Union, counterattack literally at the last moment. Without trying to confirm or deny this statement, it is worth paying attention to specific historical facts indicating that in the event of an attack, the Red Army command did not expect to stop the Germans right at the border. "
    How to understand this? Doesn't a counterattack follow an attack? What are the historical facts? Something similar to the nonsense about evacuating the enterprise ahead of time and new railway lines, and the destruction of the Soviet armies, and the retreat to Moscow, were also in the plans?
  32. 8 company
    8 company 17 January 2013 16: 31
    -3
    Excerpt from an archival document (specially for those who appreciate the execution of "enemies of the people"):

    “Information on the condition of the military units of the special corps in the MPR”, prepared by the NKVD officers as of October 1, 1938 (RGVA, F.9, Op39s, D54, L6-9):
    Soldiers of the 36th Special Motorized Rifle Division arrested as members of an anti-Soviet military conspiracy:
    “Instructor of the political department of the division - Art. political officer Polovets,
    Wreed the commander of the 107th Infantry Regiment, Major Kvashnin,
    Commissioner of the 107th Rifle Regiment - Art. political instructor Kucherov,
    room Captain Sirotin, commander of the 107th Infantry Regiment for households,
    beg. food service 107 joint venture - captain Minchukov,
    the commander of the 1st battalion of the 107th infantry regiment - Captain Kuklin,
    Chief of Staff of the 107th Rifle Regiment - Captain Forov,
    room Chief of Staff of the 107th Rifle Regiment - Art. Lieutenant Isaev,
    room Chief of Staff of the 107th Rifle Regiment - Art. Lieutenant Parfyonov,
    political instructor of the company of the 107th Infantry Regiment - Lieutenant Kogan,
    platoon commander of the 107th Infantry Regiment - ml. Lieutenant Ilyin,
    the chief of the financial service of the 107th Infantry Regiment - Lieutenant Levin,
    pompotech of the 107th Infantry Regiment - military technician of the 2nd rank Kabarchuk,
    heavy company commander of the 106th motorized rifle regiment - Art. Lieutenant Pavlov,
    the chief of staff of the 108th infantry regiment - Eskevich,
    Assistant Chief of Staff of the 108th Rifle Regiment - Lieutenant Tikhonov,
    the commander of the 36th artillery regiment - Colonel Alferov,
    the chief of staff of the 36th artillery regiment, Major Kozlov,
    artillery battery commander of the 36th artillery regiment - Art. Lieutenant Brekhov,
    beg. dignity of service of the 36th artillery regiment - military doctor of the 3rd rank Shcherbakov,
    platoon commander of the 36th artillery regiment - ml. Lieutenant Zakharov,
    Captain Kuzmenko, commander of the repair and restoration park (RVP) of the 36th separate motorized rifle division,
    repair technician - military technician of the 2nd rank Kirichek,
    repair technician - military technician of the 2nd rank Sokolov,
    the commander of the regimental school is Captain Tsoi-chan-ger,
    Assistant Commander of the Tank Battalion - Captain Makeev,
    platoon commander of the reconnaissance battalion - Lieutenant Kravchenko,
    junior command staff - 11 people, ordinary personnel - 44 people.
    Sent as exposed in belonging to an anti-Soviet military conspiracy:
    division commander - brigade commander Emlin (arrested in the city of Chita),
    Division Chief of Staff - Colonel Edelman,
    Head of the technical division - Major Seleznev,
    the commander of the 108th rifle regiment - Colonel Zamirovsky,
    Assistant Commander of the 36th Artillery Regiment - Major Mukinin,
    Politruk of the 106th Motorized Rifle Regiment - Art. Political instructor Tushima,
    battery commander of the 36th artillery regiment - Art. Lieutenant Semenov,
    chief of service 36th artillery regiment - Ponomarev,
    the head of the club of the 107th Infantry Regiment - Art. Politruk Petrov
    platoon commander of the repair and restoration park - Lieutenant Belikov,
    Commissioner of the 106th Motorized Rifle Regiment - Art. Politruk Petrov
    division commissioner - regimental commissar Sizov,
    the chief of the political department of the division is the battalion commissar of Kherson ... ”and another 26 representatives of the command staff, as well as 217 members of the junior command staff and privates.
    1. AK-74-1
      AK-74-1 17 January 2013 17: 12
      +1
      Well, arrested, and then what? What are the consequences of the arrest? Petrov and Rokossovsky were also arrested, but then they released one into the rifle corps of the other into the mechanized one.
      1. 8 company
        8 company 17 January 2013 17: 17
        -2
        Quote: AK-74-1
        Petrov and Rokossovsky were also arrested, but then they released one into the rifle corps of the other into the mechanized one.


        It's good to fool around, go to rkka.ru and read the lists of several hundred shot military commanders. How many of them are Peter and Rossoss, can you answer?
        1. AK-74-1
          AK-74-1 17 January 2013 17: 54
          0
          Very cool you (Mr. 8 company) merged with the discussion of those arrested.
          And so you please name the names of military commanders from the list with the Red Army. RU
          1. 8 company
            8 company 17 January 2013 18: 18
            0
            Quote: AK-74-1
            Very cool you (Mr. 8 company) merged with the discussion of those arrested. And so you please name the names of military commanders from the list with the Red Army.


            Yes, it’s not funnier than you rejoiced for Petrov and Rokossovsky.
            Deign to study the biographies of the military destroyed by the Stalinist secret police yourself. I am not going to quote hundreds of biographies here. I can only say that I read the lists and biographies carefully, and I know very well that at least 90% of the shot generals had real experience in managing military units.
            1. Alex
              Alex 27 October 2013 16: 35
              +2
              Quote: 8 company
              I can only say that I read the lists and biographies carefully, and I know very well that at least 90% of the shot generals had real experience in managing military formations.


              And the most experienced of them commander I rank Frinovsky ... lol
        2. Georges14
          Georges14 17 January 2013 18: 30
          +3
          Unfortunately, you draw your knowledge from the Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, or the opuses built with the help of this book. I highly recommend that you familiarize yourself with the affectors and the context of this writing:
          http://gazeta.eot.su/article/%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D1%80%D
          0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D
          0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC-%D1%81%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B5
          1. 8 company
            8 company 17 January 2013 18: 58
            0
            Quote: Georges14
            You, unfortunately, draw your knowledge from the Black Book


            And for you there is an archived document:

            1937 Komkor Konev instructs divintendant Drachev to organize work to deepen the foundation pits during the construction of barracks and command houses, since "in a combat situation they will be less affected by enemy fire ... besides, the windows of these objects will be loopholes ..."
            Local specialists are scamming:
            "This theory of Konev and Drachev ... is built on a retreat, which contradicts the regulations of the Red Army, the instructions of the People's Commissar of Defense Marshal of the Soviet Union comrade Voroshilov" to fight on foreign territory and beat the enemy on its territory, "and the instructions of comrade Stalin" Not a single inch of a stranger We don't want land, but we won't give up our land either. "
            RGVA, F9, Op39s, D54, L42.

            Thus, to engage with the troops in working out defense issues, and even more so - actions in the encirclement - was deadly for commanders before the war.
            1. Georges14
              Georges14 17 January 2013 19: 27
              +1
              If we talk about archival documents, then usually a link is given. )) But that's not the point. Tell me, I sincerely do not understand, you really think that Stalin is a bloody regime, tens of millions of tortured, that Stalin is a regression. Or are you just kidding?
    2. Georges14
      Georges14 17 January 2013 18: 14
      0
      I understand that you do not believe in the Tukhachevsky conspiracy and consider this (the destruction of potential state criminals) a crime. Is it so?
      1. AK-74-1
        AK-74-1 17 January 2013 18: 26
        0
        For Georges 14! If the question is for me.
        Due to some circumstances, I have in my personal library of 2's a volume of the red commissar Tukhachevsky and commentaries by Soviet marshals (footnotes). Find and read, and also read Triandfilov or Shaposhnikov. Much will become clear to you.
        1. Georges14
          Georges14 17 January 2013 18: 34
          0
          No, the question is not for you.
        2. Georges14
          Georges14 17 January 2013 19: 04
          +2
          Dear AK-74-1. Unfortunately, I did not read the above authors, which is undoubtedly my biggest minus and I will try to localize it. But it’s already clear to me that a war has been waged against my homeland for several decades. Dirty, undeclared information warfare. And it is being conducted with the permanent success of the forces opposing my country. I already lost the first (big) Motherland in the 91st, and now they want to take the last one from me. Therefore, I will wage my struggle to the end with people (or rather, nonhumans) who now want to make the Russian people believe in their own inferiority and inferiority through all sorts of insinuations - be it the beginning of the war or the bloody Ivan the Terrible, or Khutin Pui - all this is one cohort - dolphins and bees. And I'm a fly and an anchovy, but, they’re sawing, I won’t give up.
          Thank you.
          1. AK-74-1
            AK-74-1 17 January 2013 20: 01
            0
            Georges! It is not possible to lose your homeland! We have something to protect!
            I know that I will definitely be back in Kloce and Hellerau, and maybe with my son I will make a parachute jump from Mi-8 from the squadron assigned to us in Bramis.
            It is very pleasant to watch the guys from the 11th TD returning to the parks near Dresden on the "flying" T-80s.
            An interesting article I think will raise a little mood:
            http://oko-planet.su/finances/financesnews/160297-dolya-mezhdunarodnyh-raschetov
            -v-dollare-stala-nizhe-50.html
            1. Georges14
              Georges14 17 January 2013 21: 07
              0
              AK-74-1, thanks. Yes, it is impossible to lose your homeland - but you understand what I mean. Perhaps we will return to Dresden someday, I truly believe in that. But, unfortunately, now it is much more likely that the liberal fifth column will suit us with perestroika-2.0, and then there are two ways left - either a "special regime" or emigration. I don't want either the first or the second. Therefore - in war, as in war. "Not a step back! Death to the traitors! How many liberals have YOU killed? But pasaran!" - these should be OUR slogans. And before the Lord and Russia, we will answer for this!
              Something like that...
        3. Volkh
          Volkh 17 January 2013 20: 14
          +1
          and who is the publisher of this book, as it is called, and the year please tell me, it would be extremely interesting to read.
          1. AK-74-1
            AK-74-1 17 January 2013 20: 26
            0
            Tukhachevsky M. N. Selected works in 2 volumes - M .: Military Publishing House, 1964, Foreword by Marshal of the Soviet Union S. S. Biryuzov
      2. 8 company
        8 company 17 January 2013 19: 07
        0
        Quote: Georges14
        You do not believe in Tukhachevsky’s conspiracy and consider it (the destruction of potential state criminals) a crime


        Well, I'm not an idiot to consider 80% of the top commanders of the Red Army as criminals deserving of execution.
        1. rainer
          rainer 17 January 2013 20: 39
          +3
          Do not get excited. In general, the total number of people repressed in RRKA and RKKF does not exceed 3000 people. Moreover, especially gifted of these types of Dybenko and Tukhachevsky for the army are solid ballast. But the lack of commanders is not the repression of the 37th, but a banal disease of the growth of the army - more than 2 times.
          Well, and one more detail, one future three-time GSS, holding a rather big post, managed to destroy the armored forces of the Red Army before the war and relocate one general from the post of head of the GABTU to the post which he was too early to do, which was harmful to the detriment of his homeland. But for some reason he did not remember or think about it after the war.
          1. Volkh
            Volkh 17 January 2013 21: 58
            -5
            out of 5 marshals, how many survived. And then go down the stairs and see for yourself.
            Quote: Rainger
            Well, and one more detail, one future three-time GSS, holding a rather big post, managed to destroy the armored forces of the Red Army before the war and relocate one general from the post of head of the GABTU to the post which he was too early to do, which was harmful to the detriment of his homeland. But for some reason he did not remember or think about it after the war.

            But Stalin didn’t know about this? And he didn’t guess or spread it. You write not logical nonsense.
            And in general, I noticed that the local audience is like sheep. With dogmas and axioms driven in advance, and the criticism of Stalin in their eyes is like waving a red rag in front of a Spanish bull. They fly right there, carry nonsense, and generally the devil is doing that, that's all who wrote in comments, of course you can see some signs of thought, but they are all specialized in their own work, they know history insofar as they are, but there are a lot of them, and they have in their heads vanilla Stalin, pink communism and apple trees on Mars. And they also lost their sighs in the homeland of the USSR in 1991.
            The Second World War passed, Russia won, and now in the end there are monuments with surnames in each village, often in these villages there are already fewer people than surnames on the monument, but the next wise guy puts a minus in the address of people protecting repressed military leaders and says winners are not judged. No, of course they do not judge.
            There could have been no victory at all, as well as this unnecessary war itself.
            1. rainer
              rainer 17 January 2013 22: 08
              -1
              Yes, no, this comrade chief escaped with a slight startle of Zhukov, his surname G. K. initials ... and the comrade went far ....
              1. Volkh
                Volkh 18 January 2013 10: 19
                0
                Quote: Rainger
                Yes, no, this comrade chief escaped with a slight startle of Zhukov, his surname G. K. initials ... and the comrade went far ....

                are you out of your mind?
            2. dievleha
              dievleha 18 January 2013 00: 10
              +1
              remember how the elites of Poland, France, Austria and the Czech Republic behaved, and now Stalin’s behavior in October 1941, even if he hadn’t done anything else, he was already worthy of respect, but it was his team that organized the Victory and in the most difficult times he didn’t I was afraid to experiment to bring it closer Yes, there were many excesses but try to compare Russia in the early 30s and early 40s
            3. Kubanets
              Kubanets 18 January 2013 00: 56
              0
              To the Glamorous Magus Why, if the public has different views from the official alien point of view, can it be called rams? Have convincing arguments ended? Liberal logic is noticeable
              1. Volkh
                Volkh 18 January 2013 08: 22
                -1
                Quote: Kubanets
                why if the public has different views from the official foreign point of view, can it be called rams?

                No, convincing arguments have not come to an end. I refer to rams for the reason that they lack logic, they distort the facts, and crush the majority.
        2. washi
          washi 20 January 2013 13: 19
          0
          the fact that they were, and that the saddest thing remained, was proved not only by the sinister NKVD, but also by modern historians, archivists, and maybe it will upset you, representatives of the Moscow Region and the FSB
      3. Volkh
        Volkh 17 January 2013 20: 12
        0
        I personally think so.
    3. washi
      washi 18 January 2013 13: 21
      0
      But for this, say thank you to your "hero" - Zhukov
  33. jimm RAINOR
    jimm RAINOR 17 January 2013 17: 20
    +3
    Quote: Company 8
    Excerpt from an archival document (specially for those who appreciate the execution of "enemies of the people"):

    “Information on the condition of the military units of the special corps in the MPR”, prepared by the NKVD officers as of October 1, 1938 (RGVA, F.9, Op39s, D54, L6-9):



    AND????
    Maybe there are also interrogation protocols .... Detailed accusations ..and you also have detailed refutations ????

    With the same success, you can include here a list of all 4 million people repressed for the entire Stalin time ... And say they say that this is who is to blame .....

    And it never occurred to anyone to accuse Hitler and his comrades of the fact that we lost and retreated in 1941 ..... If it were not for their army ... not their ideology ... not their state, then the USSR would not have lost for sure. ...

    And then all of Stalin and the sidekick, you see, are to blame ... they shot the command staff ... they repressed the color of the nation ...
    All are so correct that they say Stalin is evil and bad .. but everyone in the district was correct (who were repressed) .. Garbage turns out ... it smells like the old term "Scapegoat" ... and not no matter how logic and sanity ...

    By the way, personally for the 8th company .... You, my friend, I’ll look at a lot of documents and read .. but there is one problem .. you didn’t have the ability to analyze .. either you didn’t develop them))) you just grandpa repressed .... So you spit saliva)))))

    Quote: AK-74-1

    Well, arrested, and then what? What are the consequences of the arrest? Petrov and Rokossovsky were also arrested, but then they released one into the rifle corps of the other into the mechanized one.


    Look ..... you can immediately see a competent person ...

    For those who do not know ... Read the Criminal Code .... There is such a thing as detention until clarification .....)))
    1. Alex
      Alex 27 October 2013 18: 36
      +2
      A couple of words in the subject of Tukhachevsky with comrades.
      In Poland, France and other Europe, no one repressed anyone, all generals enthralled with glory became marshals, military sciences learned and taught others ... So what? The time of their resistance was measured in days, or even hours. I’m generally silent about their governments: some in the third week of the war in Romania shed, others abandoned their portfolios, and others congratulated their conquerors in general.

      And only the USSR with its "decapitated, bloodless, unorganized" army was able not only to withstand, but also to defeat Germany. And Stalin did not leave Moscow, but on the contrary, assumed full responsibility in the leadership of the troops.

      And we managed to win. Win, contrary to all the calculations of all "military analysts". But it was they who were so delighted with the manners of "Tukhachevsky's darling". But it's one thing to scrub the floors with your breeches at receptions in palaces, it's another to first look for Pilsudski's cavalry for five days, and then run from it to Minsk, and thirdly, shoot peasants and sailors.
  34. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 17: 46
    0
    Quote: Jimm RAINOR
    Well, thanks to him, we almost got one continuous army ... without civilian production and with destroyed agriculture ......))))

    but this is complete nonsense forgive me for such rude words. There isn’t this for him, you're lying.

    Quote: BigRiver
    What is the relation between the ideological and organizational calls of the 29th year to the real state of the Red Army in 1941?

    the most direct. And it is precisely the fact that the report indicates those flaws that were critical in 1941. Report of 1929
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 18 January 2013 15: 20
      -1
      Volkhov (1)
      the report indicates those flaws that were critical in 1941; Report of 1929 ...

      With great desire, you can pull Dostoevsky and Tyutchev on a globe. But why?
      It's about the state, combat readiness, combat readiness of the Red Army on the 41st. I repeat, a 100 percent regular Red Army began to form in 1937.
      There are documents, evidence - go ahead. No - remain a ram, considering others as such.
      1. Volkh
        Volkh 19 January 2013 20: 04
        -1
        Quote: BigRiver
        Dostoevsky and Tyutchev pull

        Are they military theorists? And here, when did the personnel army begin to form?
  35. Black
    Black 17 January 2013 18: 29
    0
    Quote: Jimm RAINOR
    You, my friend, as I look, I read a lot of documents .. but there is one problem .. you didn’t have any abilities to analyze .. either you didn’t develop them))

    This is a masterpiece of analysis! and synthesis! and logic!
  36. Volkh
    Volkh 17 January 2013 19: 18
    0
    Quote: Poppy

    betrayal is proven, did not lead the troops into combat training, despite a direct order from Moscow

    http://actualhistory.ru/antimartirosyan вот к примеру вот это прочти.
  37. ramzes1776
    ramzes1776 17 January 2013 20: 06
    +1
    Winners are not judged !!!
    1. Volkh
      Volkh 17 January 2013 20: 18
      -1
      We are not judging ordinary soldiers and officers. And the very top. So that everything revolves around the koba.
  38. 8 company
    8 company 17 January 2013 20: 33
    -1
    And another archival document - a quote from the protocol of interrogation of Tukhachevsky:

    "The study of the situation on our borders with Poland and the conditions for the development of the operational headquarters of the Red Army showed us that the strategic plan has significant shortcomings and, of course, can lead to an ENDURED DEFEAT. The main drawback of the operational plan of the Red Army in the west is that it still pursues those the same active goals that were set earlier, before Hitler came to power, when the task of the Red Army was to defeat Poland ... The calculations of the General Staff of the Red Army that the USSR is stronger than Germany in terms of aviation, mechanized troops and cavalry are not entirely justified. "

    (TSA FSB RF, ASD R-9000 at Tukhachevsky M.N. et al. T.1. Protocol of interrogation of Tukhachevsky on May 29, 1937. L.53-55.)


    Today it is clear that Tukhachevsky absolutely definitely predicted the defeat of the Soviet troops in the area of ​​Belarus, if no changes were made to the strategic plan. But this is precisely what was blamed on him by the investigators, they say, he wanted to change the "good" strategic plan of the General Staff of the Red Army into his "bad" one. However, this tendency affected not only the fate of Tukhachevsky, because many military leaders were physically destroyed after they criticized the pre-war views and plans approved by the leader. Tukhachevsky was eliminated not because he was an "enemy agent" and "an enemy of the people." Mikhail Nikolaevich was executed because he was a man of principle, adhered to independent views, expressed them publicly and did not engage in blunt assent to the leader, unlike Stalin's inner circle. In particular, he advocated an unambiguous alliance of the USSR with Britain and France against Nazi Germany, which Stalin could not like, because the leader was actively flirting with Hitler.
    1. rainer
      rainer 17 January 2013 20: 55
      +2
      No, you are wrong. The main guilt of Tukhachevsky is that this uncle is an illiterate organizer and being deputy armament, he wasted huge amounts of crap. Well, also that he was threatening to raise the question of Voroshilov’s removal from the post of People’s Commissar, and the USSR was not forgiven for this ...
      1. 8 company
        8 company 17 January 2013 21: 15
        -1
        Quote: Rainger
        Tukhachevsky’s main fault was that this uncle was an illiterate organizer and being deputy armament he wasted huge amounts of crap. Well, also that he was threatening to raise the question of Voroshilov’s removal


        Crap is, apparently, Soviet radars (the first in the world, by the way), Katyushas (the world's first multiple launch rocket launchers) and many more types of weapons that he developed. Yes, he is still to blame for the fact that everyone who came into contact with him at work was shot or planted. As specialists in radar, jet weapons, teachers of the Academy of the General Staff, military leaders. And yes - he raised the question of removing Voroshilov, because he was dense and incompetent. And when Stalin himself realized this, he removed it in 1940. Three years after the execution of Tukhachevsky and the bloody pogrom in the army, in which Voroshilov actively participated. Well, of course, because Stalin gave him carte blanche to destroy all those dissatisfied with his stupidity.
        1. rainer
          rainer 17 January 2013 21: 24
          +1
          Yeah, as well as Kurchevsky’s DRP of all kinds, semi-universal guns, polygonal shells, wave techniques, control death rays and other nonsense ....
          And where does Voroshilov’s military talents come when is the post of People’s Commissar a pure will policy?
          MLRS developed both in our country and in Germany, but well, specialists-engineers pounded their own, but there is such an adder that their hairs stand on end ...
        2. Kars
          Kars 17 January 2013 21: 27
          +3
          Quote: Company 8
          "Katyusha" (the world's first multiple launch rocket launchers)

          Well, why lie? The old habit of political instructor?
          Quote: Company 8
          many more types of weapons that he developed

          He especially developed the Soviet artillery so that they almost lost the war, and ordinary soldiers paid for all his mistakes with blood.

          and he showed genius in a Polish company. how did his Katka theory work there?
          On Tukhachevsky and his team lies the blame for the failure of 1941, if the Germans would have gone further to power with their dynamo-guns, they would have reached AA line.
          1. 8 company
            8 company 17 January 2013 21: 39
            -2
            Quote: Kars
            Tukhachevsky and his team rested on the fault of 1941 failure


            And here Kars came running, now he will tell how Tukhachevsky did not prepare the country for war. Everyone was so afraid of Mikhail Nikolaevich that they did nothing for 4 years after his execution. So intimidated, villain. Fans of Stalin, running here with books and pens, write down Kars stories tongue
            1. Kars
              Kars 17 January 2013 21: 57
              +2
              Quote: Company 8
              running here with books and pens, write down Kars stories

              They wouldn’t hurt either. But you often lie. Like this time about Katyusha.
              And let's tell you that the time factor means nothing. And that the Soviet bureaucratic machine did not have inertia.

              It’s better for her to say for me. At least you taught something besides politicking.
              1. Bigriver
                Bigriver 18 January 2013 07: 50
                0
                Kars (1)
                He hardly understands why you are throwing this picture :))
        3. washi
          washi 18 January 2013 13: 29
          0
          Initially, BM-13 was intended for the use of Chemistry. Only Voroshirov’s perseverance allowed it to be used as conventional weapons
        4. Snoop
          Snoop 18 January 2013 23: 21
          +2
          under Tukhachevsky "Katyushas" were never brought to mind. The genius demanded that a known drawback of multiple launch rocket systems be removed - clouds of dust when firing. Experts tried to prove to him that this was impossible, but alas. Therefore, they worked at idle :)
          Grabin clearly defined the knowledge of Tukhachevsky about gun systems saying that he was a complete ignoramus :) Tukhachevsky dreamed of creating a universal weapon of the battlefield :) And in tanks and infantry and aviation))) Grabin also proved to him that it is impossible to create such a weapon with high efficiency against all targets on the battlefield ... alas
          1. Volkh
            Volkh 19 January 2013 20: 06
            -3
            I, too, have found something to build on, from the memory of Grabin, maybe you’d like to quote rooting Chukovsky?
      2. Volkh
        Volkh 17 January 2013 22: 06
        -2
        [quote = Rainger] The main fault of Tukhachevsky is that this uncle is an illiterate organizer and being deputy armament who sent huge amounts of crap to the wind. [/ Quote Under this crap who got a denyuyu for research? Radar and reactive crap for you? Yes, you sir, I’m afraid of this word, it’s kind of weak in reason. You yourself now attribute to Tukhachevsky the squandering of state money, but in fact it doesn’t appear at all in the charge, if there had been a waste, he would have attributed it to Ezhovites with pleasure .
        [quote = Rainger] illiterate organizer [/ quote] do you know who organized the 1st army?
        Here I read your comments and wonder how much it’s hard with people's minds.
    2. Georges14
      Georges14 17 January 2013 21: 42
      +1
      Again your lie! Tukhachevsky was executed for trying state. coup, and not for its integrity. This is a kind of forerunner of Yeltsin, who for power was ready to sell the soul to hell, and said in October 1987 - that he is the most perestroika of all perestroika. How it ended - we now see. The same thing - Tukhachevsky, as the poet said - we mark everything in Napoleon ... God forbid Russia another Tukhachevsky - let it be better bulk and K.Sobchak will be the banner of the swamp movement.
      1. Volkh
        Volkh 17 January 2013 22: 27
        -3
        Quote: Georges14
        Tukhachevsky was executed for trying state. coup

        please tell us about this attempt in more detail?
        ps according to the Criminal Procedure Code of the Russian Federation Article 14. Presumption of innocence 1. An accused shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty of an offense in the manner prescribed by this Code and established by a court decision that has entered into legal force. 2. A suspect or accused is not required to prove his innocence. The burden of proving the charge and refuting the arguments presented in defense of the suspect or the accused lies with the prosecution. 3. All doubts about the guilt of the accused, which cannot be eliminated in the manner prescribed by this Code, shall be interpreted in favor of the accused. 4. A guilty verdict cannot be based on assumptions.
        1. Georges14
          Georges14 17 January 2013 23: 32
          0
          Do not strain so, think better - where do you bring down from this country. )))
          1. Volkh
            Volkh 18 January 2013 00: 02
            -1
            Are you scaring me?
        2. Cheloveck
          Cheloveck 18 January 2013 01: 00
          -1
          Quote: WOLF
          please tell us about this attempt in more detail? according to the Criminal Procedure Code of the Russian Federation Article 14. Presumption of innocence 1. An accused shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty of an offense in the manner prescribed by this Code and established by a court decision that has entered into legal force. 2. A suspect or accused is not required to prove his innocence. The burden of proving the charge and refuting the arguments presented in defense of the suspect or the accused lies with the prosecution. 3. All doubts about the guilt of the accused, which cannot be eliminated in the manner prescribed by this Code, shall be interpreted in favor of the accused. 4. A guilty verdict cannot be based on assumptions.
          Eeeee, you have to say that you had to wait for the coup attempt?
          And besides, apply modern legislation to the 37th year? laughing
          1. Volkh
            Volkh 18 January 2013 08: 39
            0
            Quote: Cheloveck
            You have to say that you had to wait for the coup attempt?

            and as someone above asked me about rams. Yes, it's not like rams, they are stupid doomed people.
  39. wax
    wax 17 January 2013 21: 50
    -5
    The role of Tukhachevsky in the victory in the Second World War is difficult to overestimate. At his insistence and with direct supervision, new types of weapons were developed, at his suggestions many military educational institutions and academies were opened, he was a brilliant teacher, many future commanders listened to his lectures (including Zhukov). Tukhachevsky was not accidentally compared with Bonaparte Napoleon. Obviously, the repressions of the top management of the army also affected the failures of the beginning of the war. It is enough to recall that Rokossovsky was sitting, you can read the same Gorbatov. No less terrible influence of the purges had on the morale of the army, repulsed the initiative, the news and the slander, the slanderous ritual blossomed. The war liberated the Russian ingenuity, new generals grew up, and we won. Under the leadership of the same Stalin. It was a harsh time, harsh mistakes
  40. 8 company
    8 company 17 January 2013 22: 20
    -2
    And here is a portrait of one of Stalin's most devoted lackeys, a man on whose conscience the pogrom of the Red Army and mediocre participation in the WWII. Marshal Zhukov told the writer Simonov: “I must say that Voroshilov, the then people's commissar, in this role was a man of little competence. To the end, he remained an amateur in military matters and never knew them deeply and seriously ... And practically a significant part of the work in the People’s Commissariat was at that time on Tukhachevsky, who was really a military specialist. They had skirmishes with Voroshilov and generally had an unfriendly relationship. Voroshilov really did not like Tukhachevsky ... During the development of the charter, I remember such an episode ... Tukhachevsky, as chairman of the charter committee, reported to Voroshilov as a drug addict. I attended this. And Voroshilov on one of the points ... began to express dissatisfaction and offer something that did not go to business. Tukhachevsky, after listening to him, said in his usual calm voice: - Comrade People's Commissar, the commission cannot accept your amendments.
    - Why? - asked Voroshilov.
    “Because your amendments are incompetent, Comrade Commissar.” (Simonov K. M. Through the eyes of a person of my generation. - M.: Publishing House of the APN, 1989, p. 383)
    Imagine how Voroshilov hated Tukhachevsky and how glad he was to deal with him and his supporters!
    1. Kars
      Kars 17 January 2013 22: 36
      +2
      Quote: Company 8
      . He is so to the end and remained an amateur in military matters

      You see, Zhukov’s cetus)))))))) Well, you’re clicking on him with his dandy stick.
      As for competence, the blue-blooded noblemen of the Republic of Ingushetia lost in the pure Russian-Japanese and First.

      And Tukhach was so competent that his dissatisfaction is still incomprehensible is the praise or no))))))

      Mikhail Nikolaevich believed in Kurchevsky’s DRP so much that he decided to rearm them with all the artillery of the Red Army, the Air Force, and the Navy! Later, when Tukhachevsky will be recorded as martyrs and heroes, they will try to forget about it. Only V. G. Grabin in his memoirs very carefully (he was already poisoned by the then leadership of the Armed Forces and the military-industrial complex) will try to talk about the crazy ideas of the genius marshal. The case took place in June 1935. “On this day, Tukhachevsky proposed to Magdaseev, the head of the design bureau of one artillery factory (Bolshevik. - A.Sh.), and I should go to Moscow in his car. On the way, Tukhachevsky asked me the question of how I regard dynamo-artillery artillery, in other words, recoilless guns.

      I answered approximately like this: recoilless guns have the advantage that, with the same power, they are lighter than classic guns. But they also have a number of shortcomings, while significant, which completely exclude the possibility of creating all artillery on this principle. The dynamo-reactive principle is not suitable for tank guns, casemate, semi-automatic and automatic anti-aircraft, because when fired, the gun crew must go into cover - a specially dug ditch. For the same reason, the dynamo-reactive principle is not suitable for divisional guns: they will not be able to accompany infantry with fire and wheels. Recoilless guns can and should find wide application, but only as special-purpose guns.

      The conversation became sharper and sharper. I could not agree with the arguments of Tukhachevsky, they were weakly reasoned. But my arguments, apparently, did not convince him. After much debate, Mikhail Nikolaevich said:

      “You are a young designer with high expectations, but you do not notice that you are hampering the development of artillery.” I would advise you to more thoroughly analyze the issue of the widespread use of the dynamoreactive principle, change your views and take up the creation of recoilless guns. As a military man, obliged to observe subordination, I had to end the debate. Of course, my arguments displeased Tukhachevsky.

    2. Skavron
      Skavron 17 January 2013 22: 43
      +4
      nda ... 8 company, I have 2 questions for you:
      1) Have you personally read the works of Tukhachevsky, if so, which and to what extent?
      2) Why should we believe Simonov, whom Zhukov allegedly said, who was allegedly present at such a conversation. And without specifying where and when such a conversation took place, except as a reference to something that was the development of a charter?
      This is not a serious source of information.
    3. Georges14
      Georges14 17 January 2013 23: 02
      -2
      In, sawing, and got to Simonov! Well then, I too:
      I went to the podium in the hall
      The hall reminded me of a war
      And silence is that silence
      What interrupts the first salvo.

      We were warned
      The fact that the first three rows
      We came here to boo
      As a sign of declaring war on us

      I went out - and saw them
      They are two steps away, their three rows
      They are evil, well-fed, young,
      In cloaks - with chewing gum in teeth ...

      Having stepped, I begin the speech
      Its beginning is like a leap
      To attack - so as not to lie down:
      "RUSSIA, STALIN, STALINGRAD !!!"
      The first three rows are silent.
      And behind - only a slight noise ...
      And before it came to mind -
      Suddenly, like a collapse, like a shaft of water,
      Like a shifting mountain - "Hurray !!!"

      .................................................. ..............................
      ...

      Midnight ... And far away ...
      But the rally is still on.
      And the Hall rises and the Hall sings
      And breathing in the Hall is easy!

      And the first three rows are silent
      They are silent, having typed water in their mouths
      They are silent so that there is no trouble
      They are silent for the fourth hour in a row!

      .................................................. ...............

      But I didn’t tell the end -
      But he is simple. Now,
      When war threatens us -
      I remember this room.
      Hall! And not the first three rows!

      Something like that, probably ...
    4. washi
      washi 18 January 2013 13: 33
      0
      Voroshilov stopped the German advance under St. Petersburg, while being wounded. Zhukov did nothing to unlock the city
      1. Bigriver
        Bigriver 18 January 2013 15: 31
        -3
        washi
        Voroshilov stopped the German offensive ...

        This comrade perfectly personifies the LEVEL of the highest command staff of the Red Army. Having lost command of troops near Leningrad, MARSHAL !!! The USSR did not find anything better, beside despair, to personally lead the battalion's attack! What did you want to die? And the homeland, and tens of thousands of people under his leadership? ..
        After this attack, he almost did not command anything.
        1. washi
          washi 20 January 2013 13: 26
          0
          I agree. Nefig Marshal led the TRAINED troops to attack. They themselves will do everything and still surpass it, as it was in 44-45. But when morally depressed fighters are subordinate, after the defeats of the first months of the war, it is only a personal example.
    5. Alex
      Alex 27 October 2013 20: 43
      +2
      Zhukovsky revelations are like the prophecies of Wanga: every year more and more new, and every time everything is in line. Moreover, the farther from death, the more information. If you put next to all of his publications (both intravital and posthumous) and compare with a pencil, there are many disagreements.

      By the way, in intelligence this method has been used for a long time: several times about the same thing to ask and not to let you read the previously written: the liar will sooner or later get pierced.
  41. 8 company
    8 company 17 January 2013 22: 56
    -5
    Quote: Skavron
    : 1) Have you personally read the works of Tukhachevsky, if so, which and to what extent?


    If they were on sale, I would definitely read it. Although there is no special need for this, it is reliably known that he commanded one of the most combat-ready armies of the Eastern Front against the best generals of Kolchak, then received the Southern Front and defeated Denikin, then headed the Western Front and drove the Poles to Warsaw, while Yegorov, Stalin and Budyonny trampled near Lviv. Can you name another more capable commander of the Civil War? His great work on the creation of new types of weapons and the construction of the army is also known for certain.

    Quote: Skavron
    2) Why should we believe Simonov


    And why should I care - do you believe Simonov?
    1. Skavron
      Skavron 17 January 2013 23: 05
      0
      Quote: Company 8
      If they were on sale

      The Internet is a powerful force, it is not even necessary to download or read online, due to possible fraud. You can register on the second-hand bookseller sites and order online WHAT IS PLEASANT !!! And believe me - the guys will find.
      So there would be a desire. You read like a thread ... you will not regret it.

      Quote: Company 8
      And why should I care - do you believe Simonov?

      There are 2 points, Simonov is firstly an art writer.
      Secondly, what they said to Simonov, he wrote. They said to praise the marshal - praises. And he will write an interview with Zhukov himself. That's why he is a writer.
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 18 January 2013 10: 19
        0
        Skavron "There are 2 points, Simonov is firstly an art writer. Secondly, what they said to Simonov, he wrote it. They said to praise the marshal - he praises it."
        Well done! I agree especially about the artistic writer.
    2. washi
      washi 20 January 2013 13: 40
      -1
      Jerboa did not win, like the bugs, not a single battle. In Siberia, Kolchak was beaten by local partisans. If you want, try, bring the swamps to Siberia. They will let us walk for a while - another, and then - a big taiga.
      Stalin and Budyonny simply did not have time for this adventurer, as a result, the border was east of the Curzon line, which we occupied only in 1939.
      Regarding new weapons: We entered the Great Patriotic War of the bases of small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, Taubbin grenade launchers, with stupid T-38 tanks.
      1. Volkh
        Volkh 20 January 2013 16: 09
        -2
        Quote: Vasya
        Jerboa did not win, like the bugs, not a single battle. In Siberia, Kolchak was beaten by local partisans. If you want, try, bring the swamps to Siberia. They will let us walk for a while - another, and then - a big taiga.
        Stalin and Budyonny simply did not have time for this adventurer, as a result, the border was east of the Curzon line, which we occupied only in 1939.
        Regarding new weapons: We entered the Great Patriotic War of the bases of small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, Taubbin grenade launchers, with stupid T-38 tanks.


        What kind of jerboa? What kind of swamps? And where do they come from?
        Are you an heroin addict for an hour?
    3. Alex
      Alex 27 October 2013 20: 59
      +2
      Quote: 8 company
      If they were on sale, I would definitely read it.

      Have you tried using the Internet? They say it helps ...

      he commanded one of the most combat-ready armies of the Eastern Front against the best generals of Kolchak, then received the Southern Front and defeated Denikin,

      For several weeks, mostly episodically and after the removal of the commanders, whose deputies were (I wonder why this correlation is so? True, it is also reliably known that Tukhachevsky was Trotsky's personal nominee).

      led the Western Front and drove the Poles to Warsaw,

      But the Poles themselves did not even have a clue that someone was chasing them, and therefore they were able to concentrate their forces in the Lviv direction. And then return to Warsaw, where the valiant commander of the Western Front was waiting for something ... What happened next is also reliably known.

      And why should I care - do you believe Simonov?

      You should not. But we are interested in who the authority is for you: a writer with the correct party and ideological orientation, completely replacing him with purely human qualities and special military knowledge, or still military experts and historians who can adequately assess the role of each individual in the construction of armed forces. However, the orientation to the former is quite characteristic of the political agencies of the former USSR - therefore, probably, the country was also persuaded. And now, in their habit, they are looking for the guilty and are shifting from a sick head to a healthy one, without understanding anything in the matter as before.
  42. 8 company
    8 company 17 January 2013 23: 07
    0
    From the memoirs of General Grigorenko P.G .:
    'This academy was a dream, a favorite brainchild of Tukhachevsky. He picked up the entire faculty and premises for the academy one by one. He was personally ready to leave the high post of Chief of the General Staff and become the head of this academy. But, since he was not released, he attracted one of the youngest senior officers to this position - a talented military leader, organizer and teacher Kuchinsky. Professors invited such "bison" of military affairs as Svechin and Verkhovsky. Even such brilliant theorists as Isserson and Alksnis were not stars of the first magnitude in this brilliant constellation. But before the academy had time to take the first timid steps, crushing blows fell on it. The provocative trial of Tukhachevsky, Uborevich, Yakir and others put under suspicion all the cases planned by Tukhachevsky. The Academy of the General Staff was also taken under suspicion. Suspicious Stalin saw in her an "anti-Stalinist military center" and pogroms began. The highly qualified teaching staff selected by Tukhachevsky was almost completely destroyed. They only managed to start the Academy. It was a brilliant start. The first set of students told me that each new lecture, each lesson was an event. Everyone worked with enthusiasm. In the classroom, discussions were in full swing, which were summed up highly qualified results. The qualifications of the teachers can be judged by the strategic war game of 1935 - the last game in which Tukhachevsky participated (he commanded the 'blue' attacking Moscow). The task was developed by General Lukirsky and he also conducted the rallies. Subsequently, when at the end of 1941 the Germans reached Moscow, all the officers who participated in that game recalled Lukirsky and argued that the front in 1941 self-stabilized exactly at the line at which Lukirsky stabilized it in the game. By the way, he was also shot for this game. He was accused of 'letting the enemy near Moscow itself ...'
    1. Kubanets
      Kubanets 18 January 2013 01: 14
      0
      You would still Vlasov or Bunyachenko quoted Dream occupier
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 18 January 2013 11: 42
        +1
        Vasilevsky gives in his memoirs a list of teachers:
        Head of the Academy and Commissioner D.A. Kuchinsky. The department of army operations was headed by brigade commander G.S. Isserson, tactics of higher formations, divisional commander P.I.Vakulich, organization and mobilization Alafuso, military history division commander V.A. Melikov. Teachers at the Academy M.A. Batorsky, A.I Verkhovsky, A.I. Gotovtsev, P.P. Ionov, Ya.M. Zhigur, A.V. Kirpichnikov, N.A. Levitsky, A.D. Malevsky, S.G. Mikhailov, V.K. Mordvinov, I.Kh. Pauka, A.A. Svechin, E.N. Sergeev, N.I. Trubetskoy, F.P. Shafalovich, E.A. Shilovsky and others. ..
        D.M.Karbyshev everything is clear with him. Whom was reprinted Vasilevsky did not mention. This is me for info ...
      2. 8 company
        8 company 18 January 2013 23: 10
        0
        Quote: Kubanets
        You would still Vlasov or Bunyachenko quoted Dream occupier


        You screwed up, my dear, and once again. Pyotr Grigorevich Grigorenko in 1939 served as an officer of the General Staff in the management of the front group during the battles at Khalkhin-Gol. He was wounded during a mortar attack. In 1942-1943 - commander of the 18th separate rifle brigade, was deputy chief of staff of the 10th Guards Army (2nd Baltic Front). In February 1944 he was seriously wounded and sent for treatment. Since August 1944 - chief of staff of the 8th Infantry Division (4th Ukrainian Front), participated in battles in the Carpathians.
  43. 8 company
    8 company 17 January 2013 23: 27
    0
    Vasily Andreevich Recruit before the war held the position of acting Head of Information Department, Intelligence. In his memoirs, he recalls how propaganda of the leading role of Stalin in the Civil War began at the General Staff Academy. V. Novice writes:
    "We were not satisfied with this" story ". We doubted the veracity of many" facts ", since there were many direct participants in these events among us. One of the listeners of the first set - Colonel Golubev - decided to study Stalin's" brilliant "plan to defeat Denikin based on All the walls of the Academy and study rooms were hung with this plan of Stalin in graphic form. Golubev sat in the archive for a month and did not find a single document belonging to Stalin. But he found the Politburo Resolution and a number of documents developed by the headquarters of the Commander-in-Chief and the commander of the Southern Front Golubev reported the results of his searches at a meeting of the military-scientific society of the Academy, and indicated that there was no "Stalin plan" for the defeat of Denikin in nature ... This message of Golubev was a sensation ... "

    According to V. Novobrantz, the commissioner of the Academy Furth mobilized the entire party political apparatus for "clarification." Continuous meetings of the party bureau and party groups began. At these meetings, they worked hard on Golubev. When the cycle of "theoretical" brainwashing ended, Golubev disappeared ... A general purge of the Academy began. The best teachers and military scientific personnel were arrested, all their theoretical developments were destroyed. Following the head of the Academy, Corps Commander Kuchinsky, Svechin, Verkhovsky, Vakulich, Alafuzo, Malevsky, Zhigura were arrested. The head of the department of operational art, Isserson, a talented military theorist, highly respected by the audience, lasted longer than others. Most of the listeners did not understand and did not accept these reprisals, but everyone knew very well that one should not speak out openly in defense of people declared "enemies of the people." This was deadly, because such defenders were arrested after their clients. In order not to be substituted, the listeners simply voted against the exclusion of the announced victims from the party, but this did not help. They could not protect Isserson either, he was morally hounded at a specially organized meeting of the party bureau, and later he disappeared. Following the arrests of teachers, massacres of students began: out of 150 second-year students, 42 remained by the day of graduation. The rest were kicked out of the Academy, fired or ended up in camps ...
    1. Black
      Black 18 January 2013 20: 20
      0
      Let us recall how in the 70s, far from 30s according to the degree of BELIEF, sculpted from the Brezhnev brain and the father of the strategy.
  44. vardex
    vardex 18 January 2013 02: 36
    +2
    The Stalin System defeated the Hitler System. Exactly. It was not the Soviet people, the "hero and liberator" who achieved victory, but the System. A system that organized the people, managed to mobilize the country's resources in the most difficult conditions, achieved an amazing pace of production of modern weapons, provided the front with food, clothing, medical care and everything necessary. A system that turned out to be able to solve an unprecedentedly difficult task - the evacuation of industry to the East and many other super tasks: economic management, scientific and technological. The recognition of this, in general, an obvious fact, does not in any way belittle the feat of our people. We pay tribute to the soldiers who fought to the last bullet. We will not forget the feat of the besieged Leningraders who were dying of hunger but never surrendered the city. We will not forget the feat of any of our soldiers and officers, nurses and designers, doctors and workers, peasants who gave the front almost all their bread under the continuous bombardment and shelling. But the enemy was not inferior to us in courage. And there they knew how to die, and there, in surrounded and almost erased from the face of the earth Berlin, on the ruins of houses one could read the inscriptions made in coal: "Our houses are broken, but our hearts are not broken." And there fifteen-year-old children, including the children of the top leadership of the Reich, armed with faust patrons, went to obvious death.

    Our System turned out to be more progressive, reliable, more efficient. It is precisely this System that the enemies of our country, external and internal enemies, are still afraid of like fire. They are well aware that it is not "General Frost", and not Alexander Matrosov that brought the USSR victory. The principles of governance, control and responsibility of Stalinism have provided phenomenal results. 

    And, there is nothing surprising in the fact that the destruction of our country began with the discrediting of Stalin. And the revival of our countries, if such takes place, should take place taking into account the invaluable experience of the Stalinist System.
    1. Volkh
      Volkh 18 January 2013 10: 37
      0
      Quote: vardex
      Our System

      What kind of system is this?
    2. washi
      washi 18 January 2013 13: 39
      +1
      Wasn’t he a political officer?
      but I put a plus to you
  45. GOLUBENKO
    GOLUBENKO 18 January 2013 05: 06
    0
    Here is Andrey Karaulov's program "Moment of Truth: Stalin against Hitler" on this topic.
  46. CCA
    CCA 18 January 2013 08: 13
    0
    I would like to note one more important fact. This is an element of keeping silent about secret negotiations between Western countries before Hitler's attack on the USSR and the opening of the second front too protracted in time ... And Hitler's "Blitzkrieg" did not imply the seizure of the entire territory of the USSR, but there were agreements that America and England would help conclude a peace treaty with the USSR, cutting off its territory ... And when Hitler realized that he was thrown, he stepped up his actions against England, started a submarine war and attempted to bomb America ...
    1. Oidsoldier
      Oidsoldier 18 January 2013 12: 32
      +1
      Quote: KKA
      I would like to note one more important fact. This is an element of keeping silent about secret negotiations between Western countries before Hitler's attack on the USSR and the opening of the second front too protracted in time ... And Hitler's "Blitzkrieg" did not imply the seizure of the entire territory of the USSR, but there were agreements that America and England would help conclude a peace treaty with the USSR, cutting off its territory ... And when Hitler realized that he was thrown, he stepped up his actions against England, started a submarine war and attempted to bomb America ...

      Definitely negotiations were conducted from all sides. Everyone was looking for benefits. The stakes were so high that they surrendered France to Hitler so that he decided to attack the Union.
  47. ken
    ken 18 January 2013 08: 21
    +1
    If we recall the 1st World War, then the Russian headquarters had a plan that was most acceptable in the 2nd World War, and no matter what forces the enemy was advancing with, the troops retreated deep into their territory, where the mobilization and accumulation of forces was already underway. Apparently it is impossible to create sufficient forces, to organize the masses of troops at the spearheads of the attacks of the Germans who are here today and after tomorrow near Minsk, they logically create an advantage of ten and at least ten times pass the defense in a narrow sector and they can only unite with their the Red Army is only concentrating. (Zhukov at the games before the war, this is how he beat Timosheko, "playing" for the enemy)
    In vain they write that Soviet history is completely sinful, there is a lot that was rewritten then, but in general it is quite reliable, strangely enough it became clear when all the information and numbers appeared, after the "re-construction"
  48. Martar
    Martar 18 January 2013 11: 11
    +3
    The most annoying thing is that they defame those people who have done thousands of times more for the people and the country than those who defame them. It is ridiculous to hear the names of Stalin and Beria, as enemies of the people, who, apart from executions and camps, could not think of anything else. Most of these defilers, never even trying to look into history and see that Stalin, for example, contrary to all the slander, deleted the names from the execution lists, and did not compile them, those who were put on trial personally deserved this fate. I think that these people are being denigrated precisely for their justice and devotion to the country, people and ideas, they are being denigrated for what the majority (I would like to be mistaken about the majority of our politicians today) do not have the government of our country. A tyrant and an oppressor would never have received popular recognition in the multinational USSR, with the name of a man who shoots people at his whim, ordinary soldiers would never go into battle, labor feats would not be accomplished. Stalin was the leader that we don’t have right now, I think it was out of envy of the capabilities and merits of Stalin that they now hate him so much. I consider the main indicator of government activity, this is the population, compare the number and composition of the population in 1939. and the number and composition of the population in 1959, everything will become clear to you. Eternal memory and glory to Stalin and to those people who gave their lives and health to protect, strengthen and modernize our country.
  49. washi
    washi 18 January 2013 13: 57
    0
    total:
    1. Tukhachevsky with the campaign had to be shot back as early as 20-21, after the trial, at which to sort out all the mistakes.
    2. Zhukov to shoot along with Pavlov. Zhukov, being an NGS, did nothing to improve the BC of the Armed Forces. Pavlov - similarly for the Western District. There, the whole plan of our defense rained down.
    3.Repressions, commanders, by law were impossible without the permission of a higher command, i.e. the bosses greeted their arrogant, and only thanks to Stalin, Voroshilov did we have Gorbatov, Rokossovsky and others
    4. Instead of BP l / s was engaged in all garbage
    5. Lack of moral, psychological and military training among the Red Army and the NKVD,
    1. Volkh
      Volkh 18 January 2013 14: 05
      -3
      washi,
      yes you are just a brain.
    2. Skavron
      Skavron 18 January 2013 15: 35
      0
      Hmm ... Vasily ... such Vasily ...

      The conclusion just smiled. Then Comrade Stalin should have shot himself ... After all, the head above Zhukov and Pavlov. Yes, for the company, Golikov and Meretskov also have to decide ... what a trifle.

      Quote: Vasya
      Instead of BP l / s was engaged in all garbage

      Yes? Something in the memoirs of Soviet military leaders did not meet this. Probably lied, the memoirists are bad.

      Quote: Vasya
      Lack of moral, psychological and military training among the Red Army and the NKVD

      Why repeat the paragraphs?
      And there is plenty of evidence that just the moral and psychological preparation of the fighters of the Red Army was at their best. And in general I am silent for the NKVD ... oh there is such a strong motivation ... and there is no room for despondency or cowardice.
      1. washi
        washi 20 January 2013 14: 27
        -1
        Golikov, as the head of the Intelligence Directorate of the Red Army, Comrade Stalin sent the bearded man to the most important direction - Britain. But then it was not worth it to command the troops
        Meretskov was put on the most peaceful spot, by the way, speculation was strolling through the little books that he simply did not have time or did not want to, or admitted ......
        Instead of BP, everyone was doing and doing window dressing. Who served he knows. The most window dressing at MOS Zhukov and after 90 g
        IGO soldiers and commanders at the beginning of the Second World War was. Otherwise, there weren’t so many people surrendered
    3. Bigriver
      Bigriver 18 January 2013 15: 47
      0
      washi
      1. Tukhachevsky with the campaign had to be shot back as early as 20-21, after the trial, at which to sort out all the mistakes.
      2. Zhukov to shoot along with Pavlov. Zhukov, being an NGS, did nothing to improve the BC of the Armed Forces. Pavlov - similarly for the Western District. There, the whole plan of our defense rained down.
      3.Repressions, commanders, by law were impossible without the permission of a higher command, i.e. the bosses greeted their arrogant, and only thanks to Stalin, Voroshilov did we have Gorbatov, Rokossovsky and others
      4. Instead of BP l / s was engaged in all garbage
      5. Lack of moral, psychological and military training among the Red Army and the NKVD,


      You try to be clever, having an approximately superficial aftertaste.
      For brain-storming, creative, in order to promote a marketing idea - a useful lesson. To understand the process that has taken place, this is a harmful occupation and distancing you from the moment of truth.
      If you are really deeply interested in the aforementioned topic, try to start by studying the materiel: rifle, artillery, tanks, aviation .., state evolution, organizational structures, charters ...
      Even the above will distract you from the "dope" for 5 years.
      1. washi
        washi 20 January 2013 14: 38
        -1
        Omit your English words and what remains?
        In fact, we were outplayed in tactics and preparation and education.
        Tanks - T-34s are good, but where is the support and provision
        Airplanes - no tactics
        Ships - one raid on Konstatsu and that is not successful
        I repeat, but the main causes of the defeat:
        Lack of interaction
        Illiteracy of personnel, including generals
        Weak knowledge of entrusted technology - at that time the best
        1. Volkh
          Volkh 20 January 2013 16: 14
          -1
          Quote: Vasya
          Tanks - T-34s are good, but where is the support and provision
          Airplanes - no tactics
          Ships - one raid on Konstatsu and that is not successful
          I repeat, but the main causes of the defeat:
          Lack of interaction
          Illiteracy of personnel, including generals
          Weak knowledge of entrusted technology - at that time the best

          these are problems that were discovered at least in 1929. Fact.
    4. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 19 January 2013 14: 21
      0
      Total Vasek! You can see right away a decisive person! But it seems to me that you overdid reading Rezun-Suvorov! Be more careful with him!
      1. washi
        washi 20 January 2013 14: 41
        0
        Sometimes traitors have clever thoughts. the main thing is to listen and draw your conclusions
  50. Larus
    Larus 18 January 2013 20: 10
    -2
    Yes, a lot of so-called historians and so-called writers from the Western money supply write that it’s in vain about our country in the past. And it’s a pity that our statesmen allow this to be freely distributed, and some even advertise it.