Military Review

Hand-to-hand fight: from craft to art

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Hand-to-hand fight: from craft to art



Even years 30 ago, our compatriots and never heard of Russian hand-to-hand combat. Soviet sambo owned, about the Japanese karate already knew. And about the Russian - no. And only in the dashing 90-e, which became a fertile time for folk art, numerous “Russian styles” hatched into the light. And not all turned out to be profanation, many took shape in serious schools. It was through the efforts of specialists from these schools, always enthusiasts devoted to their path, that we learned about “... how they fought in Russia ...”. And now there are hardly any doubters that Russian fist fighting is a reality, and that our ancestors were competitive fighters at all times. I think the question of the existence of the Russian fight tradition can be considered resolved. Now disputes of historians and martial arts fans have shifted in a different direction: was there a school? Can we talk about Russian martial art, and therefore about art? Were the masters of hand-to-hand combat? Were there any social institutions whose purpose was to train melee specialists?

Of course, when art is spoken of, it means having a school. The school is represented by the Master. The Master has students, the most intelligent of whom develop the school. Eastern myths and legends unequivocally indicate that there, in China, Japan and Korea, there were Masters and schools. But what about Russia?

Russian since ancient times practiced fist fight, which is rightly a national tradition and part of our national culture. But the fist fight can hardly be called art, in his regard, Alexander Belov suggests the term "combat craft". And really: fistfight is a mass phenomenon, like a sport now. Is sport can be art? The Master of Sports and the Master of Martial Art are fundamentally different concepts. The first reflects a purely technical skill, when the second is also a level of spiritual development. In addition, the technical skill itself in sports and martial art is different. Take, for example, karate. Modern contactless karate, which has become a sport, focuses on the development of speed. Here you need speed and ease of movement to beat the opponent and get points. Orthodox karate is the art of one strike, because this is the condition of a real fight. The Okinawan peasant had only one chance in a fight with a samurai. Therefore, the skill is needed here is completely different, because the technical skill is always dictated by the conditions of the battle. And sport, as we know, is a mass of conventions. Thus, the martial art, initially, is tied to the tasks of a real battle. Therefore, it is combat.

The term “art” is used when a certain ladder of development is meant, the very “path to the summit”, which, of course, is infinite, because there is no limit to perfection. Art, unlike craft, polishes nuances, there are no trifles here, because without trifles there will be no ideal. And the ideal is the goal of art. That is why artisans can be many, but there are not so many Masters among them. Not a lot of people capable of turning craft into art.

Folk tradition of melee fighting could not create a martial art. Nowhere. Neither we nor the East. And there are quite understandable explanations for this. The people practiced fistfight and wrestling, as a youthful FUN, as a means of manifestation of power, distance and character. They were a tool for education and hardening, but they were not the main form of activity. And therefore, of course, were a craft. That is, the skill was necessary to maintain a certain physical form and to demonstrate the ability to resist, as an important indicator of viability. The art of hand-to-hand combat was useless to a peasant. Then, perhaps, it was necessary for a professional warrior? Indeed, in the old days, the role of hand-to-hand combat in solving combat missions was the main one.

Are there any references to historical sources about the demonstration of hand-to-hand combat techniques by Russian knights? Not possession cold weapons, not manifestations of physical strength, speed and other qualities, namely, SKILLS, artificially developed, specially delivered technique? There are such mentions. Let's turn to the Tale of Bygone Years.

In the year 6579 (1071). ... Once during the crop failure in the Rostov region, two magicians from Yaroslavl appeared, saying that we know who holds the reserves. And they set off along the Volga and wherever they came to the churchyard, they called noble wives here. saying that she keeps hiding, and that - honey, and that - fish, and that - fur. And they brought their sisters, their mothers, and their wives to them. The wise men, while fooling people, cut through behind their shoulders and took out either the fruit or the fish, and killed many wives, and took their property to themselves. And they came to the White Lake, and there were three hundred people with them.

At the same time, it happened to Jan, the son of Vyshatin, collecting tribute to come from Prince Svyatoslav; Belozertsy told him that two magicians had already killed many wives along the Volga and Sheksna and had come here. Yang, having questioned whose slaves, and having learned that they were the prince of his prince, sent to those people who were near the Magi, and said to them: “Give me both the magi, because both of them are my prince and my prince.”

They did not listen to him. Yang went himself without a weapon, although his children said to him: "Do not go without a weapon, they will shame you." He ordered the young men to take a weapon and with twelve youths went to them to the forest. They fought against him. And so, when Yan walked on them with a hatchet, three husbands came out from them, came up to Yana, saying to him: “You see that you are going to die - do not walk.”


Yang ordered to kill them and went to the rest. They rushed at Yana, and one of them swung at Yana with an ax, but missed. Yang, turning the ax, hit him with an ax and ordered the young men to cut them ...

Let's analyze this passage. Unfortunately, as is often the case, the chronicler is not accurate enough in his description, and therefore this episode can be viewed from different angles.

So, Yang was armed with a hatchet, whose blunt knocked out one of the attackers. And there is a lot of obscure and incomprehensible. On the one hand, the chronicler points out that “Yan himself went unarmed himself,” but he immediately wrote: “Yan went at them with a hatchet ...” It would be quite clear if Yan really took off all weapons as a sign of peaceful intentions . Thus, by masking his true goals with the role of parliament, Yan has the opportunity to reach the instigators of the riot. But what is the point in leaving all the weapons and remaining only with the "hatchet"?

Then the most interesting thing happens: the rioters rush at the hero. And the chronicler does not tell us the number of attackers, but we clearly see here an episode of hand-to-hand combat according to the “one against all” scheme, so familiar to fans of the zasechny battlefield. But unlike sports models, we have a fragment of a real battle for destruction.

See how things are going. The robber strikes with an ax, "..but missed." Why did it happen? I would quite understand if a modern city dweller, on vacation in a grandmother's village, deciding to chop wood, instead of logs would have gotten himself by the knee. But for every serf the ax is one of the basic tools of labor. And now the village men, who since their childhood are accustomed to squeeze an ax handle in their hands, are doing, with the help of this tool, one might say, jewelry work. It was possible to miss only if Yan were WRONG!

Until now, the skill of moving around the site, the technique of biases and twists in hand-to-hand combat is considered to be a base. And now, the soldiers of the school of arrears, as the main maneuver, are working on avoiding the simultaneous attack of three forwards. And in those distant times, when warriors fought with swords and axes, there was generally nothing to do in a fight for someone who could not escape from a blow. And Yan demonstrates this skill perfectly.



But then we can assume different scenarios. We can recall the very “hatchet” that Yan had with him initially. And, of course, it can be assumed that it was his Yang who “turned” in order to knock out the attacker with a butt ... In principle, this, from a technical point of view, is quite simple. But, in this case, the logic of what is happening is not clear. If Yan "took the language" is another matter. But the events unfold in such a way that all the instigators of the rebellion go to death, and those who attacked Yan, at his command, were hacked away by young men who secretly followed their commander. So why then wrap the "hatchet"?

I dare to assume that no one wrapped the “hatchet”. Note that the chronicler, pointing to Jan’s weapon, says that he was armed with an “ax”, and when he speaks of the attacking robber, he writes about the blow with an ax. And it is Yang's ax that wraps it around. And in this case, everything falls into place, because we see a magnificent and extremely effective demonstration of combat skills, brought to perfection. It’s not for nothing that the author of the annals says that Yan goes to the banditry camp without weapons. Yang is a professional warrior, the son of a voivode of the Rostov prince. A person, apparently, not only great courage, but also a carrier of truly unique abilities, honed to the highest level. What is striking is the composure and confidence with which he goes to the bandit camp. The fact that he did not take a weapon with him speaks only in favor of the fact that he was absolutely sure of his victory over the enemy. He is a warrior, and they are stinkers. And never a stranger can beat a warrior, even if he is unarmed, because a duck with a gun is not yet a hunter. Yang knows perfectly well that weapons are valid only in capable hands, and the hands of the Master and without weapons are weapons.

Yang performs a truly challenging technical act worthy of a Master. He "wraps" the ax against the enemy, striking the blow with his own weapon. It is precisely because of the specifics of the technical action that the blow comes from a butt, not a blade. After all, the blade just turned against Yan!

You know, honestly, when I see a demonstration of this kind of techniques by modern melee fighters, I find myself thinking that this is too spectacular to be realistic. And athletes will understand me. But, dear, do not be such skeptics! Yang did not deal with his own kind, but with the serfs, whose contempt for him was so great that he went on axes without a weapon. And won! I won because the difference in the level of preparation for hand-to-hand fighting was HUGE (which is practically not the case in sports).

Unfortunately, we can only assume the technical essence of the technique used, and the chronicler is not in the mood for such details: he himself was not a witness to the events. And even if he were, he would hardly have understood something. It is not for nothing that even today, during demonstrations on hand-to-hand combat, the techniques are shown in a deliberately slow pace so that inexperienced viewers can understand what is happening. Nevertheless, the chronicler with someone's words recorded "turning the ax, hit that butt ...". That is, quite accurately pointed out the essence of the reception. How could he know that? Apparently, he wrote down what people were saying, what was imprinted in the national consciousness, and, therefore, struck him. The feat of Yan (in another way his deed cannot be called, in fact, the counterterrorist operation!) Made a huge impression not only on the forest trees, but also on his youngsters, who secretly followed him and witnessed the whole thing. Oh, they knew what technical action their commander had done, and they became the source of popular rumor, telling people how Yang dealt with the robber.

By the way, let's not forget that the rebels were number three hundred, and Yan is sent to their lair under the cover of only twelve youths who with honor play their part, leaving the winners of an unequal fight. Adherents of a zasechny battle will undoubtedly use this information as indisputable proof that our ancestors, the warriors, had specific skills in confrontation with superior enemy forces. Here it is - zasechny battle in action!

Well, so what. We found a master professional. We also identified the social environment that is directly interested in cultivating the art of hand-to-hand combat. It is the art, because the level of warrior's skill determines whether he will live tomorrow or not. But what about school? Was there a hand-to-hand school?

The school implies the existence of a system of constructive principles, their continuity, as well as the unification of the masters - the system carriers. Did all this not exist? Of course it existed. The opposite is contrary to common sense. It’s one thing a fist fight, where it’s enough for “grandfather to show his grandson,” and he repeated, as he understood. I mastered it, did not master it - a matter of personal interest, and no one will pay attention to the nuances. Not relevant. Another thing - the squad. A combat unit similar to the modern special forces detachments, where the overall success depends on the actions of one. Here, without schooling, that is, without school, is indispensable. The squad was the very social institute where the art of hand-to-hand combat was in demand and, accordingly, cultivated.

The squad had a complex structure, its own specific hierarchy, it needed specialists of different profiles, who were trained by “guys”, or an instructor in a modern way. Will anyone deny that combat units do not need martial art masters? Isn't sniping an art? At the level of a regular sniper of a motorized rifle unit, where the SVD is a group weapon to cover the actions of the group at long distances, shooting from a sniper rifle is, of course, a craft. But the special forces sniper, for example, the anti-terrorist unit, will confidently say that sniping is an art. This is not only shooting techniques, math calculations, analytics, it is also a psychology, lifestyle, world outlook, if you want. At this level, sniping becomes a martial art. And hand to hand combat. Any combat unit in need of melee specialists will eventually form its own hand-to-hand fighting school.

Only the school can guarantee some kind of result, because it has a methodology and a developed program. When we read the descriptions of battles and see that the Russian squad fights beautifully, both in lava and in close formation, this means that it IS ABLE to do this and has extensive experience in conducting combat operations. And this experience should somehow be analyzed, preserved, multiplied, and on its basis a program of training a young recruitment should be built, exercises should be held, in the end. Because without all this, in principle, there can be no combat unit. So, there was a school, including a school of hand-to-hand combat, because the warrior NEVER shared the battle with his bare hands and the battle with the use of knives. This is for athletes there is a "hand-to-hand fight", "knife fight" and so on. And for the army there is a "melee system", where all methods of defeating the enemy at a short distance are studied, and there is no division according to the tools of defeat, as there is no it in real combat.

Of course there was a school. And there were Masters, genuine, worthy of being an example not only for contemporaries, but also for us. Martial art is familiar to Russia, and the fact that it is now in the shadows is not replicated, not turned into a commodity for the consumer - this is true: true art remains the lot of a narrow circle of specialists who need it by their professional occupation, by their social - the historical role, their vocation ...
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  1. Kerch
    Kerch 16 January 2013 09: 40
    +2
    as one thought throughout the article is exaggerated, and not much information. Unfortunately
    1. Ross
      Ross 16 January 2013 15: 14
      -1
      Kerch,
      In ancient Vedic Russia there was its own battle school, the most famous of the characteristic Cossacks. The books of George Sidorov describe the ancient Cossack style 5 elements that he owns from the grandfather of the Cossack. There are references to Prince Svyatoslav the Brave, who was taught the magi from the art of childhood.
      In the article, the author called the Magi smerds, this is complete nonsense. It is the magi masters of the internal style! Only they knew all the secrets and could teach future character wars. Anyone who has had the experience of oriental martial arts, probably knows about the existence of external and internal schools. Only the inner school is capable of giving true knowledge of all true abilities.
      Man, therefore, it is extremely unlikely to get there, and even more so to fully comprehend knowledge.
      1. s1н7т
        s1н7т 17 January 2013 13: 15
        +3
        Quote: Ross
        In ancient Vedic Russia
        were the Cossacks ?! laughing
        1. Ross
          Ross 17 January 2013 13: 19
          -4
          s1н7т,
          Cossacks are the successors of ancient traditions. Not immediately did they become the wars of Christ.
      2. heathen
        heathen 17 January 2013 17: 08
        +2
        * In the article, the author called the Magi smerdy, this is complete nonsense. *
        the author of the article did not actually call the sorcerers sorcerers - this was done by the author of the annals and, according to him, Vyshatich himself. If you read more carefully, you would see:
        "Yan, asking whose smerds, and learning that they were the smerds of his prince, sent to those people who were near the Magi, and said to them:" Give me both Magi, because they are both my smerds and my prince. "
        But what he was - it is true, the lie of the chronicler or the military trick of Vyshatich, we are unlikely to know.

        Georgy Sidorov is another guru who broadcasts about Freemasons, the egregor of Satan, Inglings, Mayan prophecies, Atlantis, etc. It is reckless to trust such sources of knowledge, I would say somewhat fraught for the psyche.

        Information about kharacterniki is already the sphere of legends and myths, as in the Zaporozhye Sich they called the Cossacks-sorcerers, and by no means those who reached the heights of skill in hand-to-hand combat. I will not start a conversation about whether this is true or fiction, I will say one thing - they have not survived to our times. And therefore the presentation in books of descriptions of all kinds of "Cossack styles" with a reference to kharacterniks is simply ridiculous. In addition, Sidorov is a descendant of the Don Cossack, and the kharacterniki were among the Zaporozhye. Don - all deeply devout Christians, and Christians are not allowed to conjure :) So it is unlikely that his grandfather could have given him such knowledge.

        Further. The Magi could not own martial art. Apparently (according to indirect data from the annals) they even touch iron, and even more so weapons. was forbidden. And Maybe they practiced some kind of their own bloodless style, like the Shaolin monks, but to the perfection of the warriors, who devoted their whole lives exclusively to war (which you can’t say about the magicians), they could not hold out for sure.
  2. Beck
    Beck 16 January 2013 09: 42
    +11
    If we consider hand-to-hand combat not only for fighting, sports, crime, then, in fact, he did not play and does not play a big role in the military operations of the past.

    In past battles, courage, discipline and knowledge of the basic techniques of both horse and foot combat were needed. The rest was done by instinct. No matter how the Kungfists of China were embroiled in meditation and grueling training, the nomads came from the steppe and beat the Chinese armies. And in no battle did the kungfists play any role in the outcome of the battle.

    In modern combat, hand-to-hand combat is generally useless. Except for intelligence and sabotage groups. At long distances, aviation, artillery, and tanks operate. At close range, firearms and rarely, very rarely, it comes to the fists.
    1. Gur
      Gur 16 January 2013 12: 06
      +13
      When a person is equally good, and even better, masterfully mastering his head, fists and weapons, this gives him confidence in battle and in any mess, whether it comes to this or not, and when a person does not have this confidence, then this is not fighter, as well as potential cannon fodder.
      1. borisst64
        borisst64 16 January 2013 13: 07
        +3
        Quote: GUR
        this gives him confidence in battle and in any mess,

        I agree, the main thing is not to become self-confidence. In a sports hall or section he will hold a couple of knockouts, (even worse if he watches a lot of films) and then he climbs a knife, usually with a sad result.
        1. Gur
          Gur 17 January 2013 10: 03
          +1
          Therefore, there is written first-head
      2. Ivanushra
        Ivanushra 17 January 2013 04: 30
        +3
        And how many self-confident athletes died in the 90s during the redistribution. It is one thing to prepare yourself for competitions and another for military operations. There is a joke: Chapaev-Petke, wiping his saber: he did not understand why this samurai with his bare heel jumped onto the saber.
    2. SIT
      SIT 16 January 2013 13: 43
      +1
      Quote: Beck
      In modern combat, hand-to-hand combat is generally useless. Except for intelligence and sabotage groups. At long distances, aviation, artillery, and tanks operate. At close range, firearms and rarely, very rarely, it comes to the fists.

      Do you want me to give you an example when, during a special operation without the use of firearms and explosives, a blow was struck at the command center of the armed forces of the enemy and the population of his country was completely demoralized? Already guessed? Yes, it’s correct on November 9.11.2001, XNUMX.
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 16 January 2013 14: 13
        +2
        SIT

        I do not plead the value of rb, but

        Quote: SIT
        during a special operation without the use of firearms and explosives, a blow was struck at the control center of the armed forces of the enemy


        A sabotage group can also be stopped by a door with a combination or touch-sensitive lock, but a donkey loaded with gold or a tactical nuclear strike is much more difficult to stop.
        1. heathen
          heathen 17 January 2013 17: 39
          0
          this is precisely the sabotage group that can stop a tactical nuclear strike. :)
    3. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 16 January 2013 14: 06
      +3
      Beck

      Hi! hi

      Quote: Beck
      In past battles, courage, discipline and knowledge of the basic techniques of both horse and foot combat were needed. The rest was done by instinct. No matter how they ventured out in meditation and grueling training, the Kungfists of China


      Well, how can you say that? there are secret schools! secret techniques!
      - Have you seen "House of Flying Daggers" and "Hon-Gil-Don"? evano how can they, and you with some wild nomads No. .

      In the video, the Master of Secret Knowledge of Contactless Fight agreed to blitz light sparring wassat
      1. Beck
        Beck 16 January 2013 16: 40
        +10
        Quote: Karlsonn
        Hi!


        Hello to you too!

        Well, why are you so, immediately harey on the table and head against the wall.

        And for serious things, by now, hand-to-hand combat systems developed in specialized combat units — sambo, some sort of Israeli system — are more suitable. Without tinsel martial arts. I understand composure is needed, but not ceremony. This is when a fighter sits and stares intently all day either at the sky or at a blade of grass. It is interesting to know, if necessary, they also go with ceremonies, it’s a big deal to empty oneself, throw off the ballast.

        Personally, in my opinion, martial arts skills are effective only against mattresses, which do not have enough reaction even to escape and when the reception is made suddenly. That is, there is no tension around. Like, man, what’s on your lapel? - And kick in the temple. And with equal preparation of rivals in general, it turns out nonsense, they jump around and around without a single spectacular blow, even up ... sing do not hang.

        The fights of boxers, Thai boxers, they are spectacular, spectacular. There are tricks. When fighters with high-profile titles of kungfu, wushu, taekwondo and karate are invited to the octagon of fighting without rules, it’s just a fight with elements of boxing and wrestling. Type hit with his fist in the chin or just flunked to the floor. And there are no those spectacular tricks that gray-haired old men demonstrate in movie clips.

        And then a professional street fight, in my opinion, this is the aerobatics of martial arts. As far as I know, not a single Chinese or Japanese master of any schools dared to go out against the street fighting system of Hong Kong criminals.
        1. atalef
          atalef 16 January 2013 16: 50
          +9
          Quote: Beck
          sambo, some kind of Israeli system

          A friend has been serving in the anti-terror unit for 15 years. The system is called KRAV MAGA (combat contact). In general, no jumps, beautiful turns and games for the public. It is necessary to cut down instantly, to take away a pistol or knife, like no * honor * hit in the balls, to finish lying down is absolutely ordinary. There is no time for beautiful poses and rules
          1. marshes
            marshes 16 January 2013 16: 58
            +5
            Quote: atalef
            The system is called KRAV MAGA (combat contact). In general, no jumps, beautiful turns and games for the public. It is necessary to cut down instantly, to take away a gun or knife, like no * honor * hit in the balls, to finish lying down is absolutely mundane. It is not up to beautiful poses and rules

            Reminiscent of the Simpsons trip to Israel. smile
          2. romb
            romb 16 January 2013 17: 38
            +5
            That's for sure. Krav Maga is a very serious system, completely devoid of unnecessary ceremonial pathos and pseudo-spiritual nonsense about humanity.
          3. Mairos
            Mairos 17 January 2013 08: 29
            +2
            KRAV MAGA is an Israeli version of combat sambo. No more and no less.
            1. Val_y
              Val_y 17 January 2013 16: 54
              +4
              Combat sambo, as for me, is the most effective means for fighting the enemy. I remember that our coach looked out for those techniques (a blow to the liver, for example) that were the most successful for everyone and we tried our own technique. He used to say "Guys on the street there is no honor, if a fight cannot be prevented, you need to start it at the most convenient moment for you, no more than one blow for one opponent and then run with obstacles, so that the opponents are distanced, stop, hit, run again , so we train endurance " angry
        2. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 16 January 2013 17: 30
          0
          Quote: Beck
          And seriously, by now, more suitable are hand-to-hand combat systems developed in specialized combat units


          no doubt!


          Quote: Beck
          It is interesting to know, if necessary, they also go with ceremonies, it’s a big deal to empty oneself, throw off the ballast.


          all through meditation!


          Quote: Beck
          When fighters with high-profile titles of kungfu, wushu, taekwondo and karate are invited to the octagon of fighting without rules, it’s just a fight with elements of boxing and wrestling


          it doesn’t happen otherwise.


          Quote: Beck
          And there are no those spectacular tricks that gray-haired old men demonstrate in movie clips.


          and Hong Gil Dong flies anyway !!!


          Quote: Beck
          As far as I know, no Chinese or Japanese master of any schools dared to go against the street fighting system of Hong Kong criminals


          only a tank can really protect you from sharpening in the back from a teenage drug addict! climbed into it and a mustache wink
        3. SIT
          SIT 16 January 2013 20: 38
          +2
          Quote: Beck
          Personally, in my opinion, martial arts skills are effective only against mattresses, which do not have enough reaction even to escape and when the reception is made suddenly.

          Vietnam fought from 1947 to 1975 almost without a break. It is clear that they had no time for shows, cinema, Olympic sports achievements, etc. At the same time, the martial arts schools developed in full swing both in the north and in the south. As you know, during the war all inefficient weapons disappear by itself due to physical loss. So martial arts on the contrary only developed. Now we probably can’t meet the fought Vietnamese anymore, but before, most of those who arrived were at war. Of course, not everything was masters, but it was interesting to see when they just got a stick in their hands, they instinctively intercepted it like an automaton, because obviously they were trained to work in hand-to-hand combat, not releasing weapons from their hands.

          Quote: Beck
          When is the octagon fighting without rules

          In fights without rules, there are 14 restrictions on techniques. In no single combat sport are blows to the back, let alone the spine and base of the skull, allowed. For the favorite trick of English commandos since the time of World War II - a barrier, they will immediately be disqualified and kicked out of the neck from the coolest fights without rules. This is a blow with the edge of the palm on the throat. I once asked to show what a piece of one beautiful tao means in practice. It turned out that in response to a deuce to the head, there is going down with a step forward and a punch in the groin and the capture thereof. Then, at the same time, the eggs jerk towards themselves, and the other hand hits the base of the palm at the base of the nose and fingers lower into the eyes. As a result, a person falls over on his back already with a painful shock, choking in blood and not seeing anything. Well, what kind of competitions will this work?
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 17 January 2013 02: 08
            0
            Quote: SIT
            Now we probably no longer meet the fought Vietnamese


            we have everything in Kiev!
            proudly pacing

            There is a certain Zung - a lieutenant, a scout in reserve, fought to the bitter end, now he teaches the "Tiger" school, such a serious uncle.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 17 January 2013 11: 26
              +5
              not the topic, just a real case I remembered about a Vietnamese in the USSR:
              A bus stops outside the hotel and Asians get off from there. A drunk man is standing nearby and, having learned that these tourists are Vietnamese, he began to play the fool, spreading his arms to the side, leaning his body forward - began to depict the plane, emitting a hum, "flying" around the Vietnamese and shouting "I am a Phantom! I am a Phantom."
              Then a Vietnamese aged man suddenly responds in Russian, but essno, with an accent:
              - Stop the mess. Only when I knocked down the "phantoms", they had smoke coming from the zopa ...
          2. Beck
            Beck 17 January 2013 11: 22
            +2
            Quote: SIT
            Of course, not everything was masters, but it was interesting to see when they just got a stick in their hands, they instinctively intercepted it like an automaton, because obviously they were trained to work in hand-to-hand combat, not releasing weapons from their hands.


            I agree. But only in the aspect that the Vietnamese fighters were taught the basics of military hand-to-hand combat. Work bayonet and butt. Any soldier should know this. But I don’t think that they were trained to meditate for half a day and ride trees. And then it is impossible to train such methods in large quantities.

            Quote: SIT
            In fights without rules 14 restrictions on techniques.


            Restrictions on competitions are everywhere. Boxers are forbidden the same blows to the back of the head, spine, below the belt. Thais in some tournaments are prohibited from elbows. But they use many other tricks. Why boxing competitions are crazy and effective. Masters of martial arts in the octagon do not show a lot of tricks, except for forbidden, which they studied for years. It all comes down to bulk, an accidental blow to the chin and toppling of the opponent to the floor. So it turns out that half the time they jump around each other, and the second half of the time they fly on the floor.

            I don’t know why this happens. Whether they are afraid to hold receptions for fear of running into a counter-reception or something else. Or the third. Perhaps the use of techniques against a trained opponent is impossible. That is, a trained opponent will not allow a painful reception or an exact blow (this is possible only with a mattress) and therefore not spectacular, and the competitions of martial artists in the octagon are not effective.
            1. SIT
              SIT 17 January 2013 13: 55
              0
              Quote: Beck
              But only in the aspect that the Vietnamese fighters were taught the basics of military hand-to-hand combat. Work bayonet and butt.

              They had no sport and the name army hand-to-hand combat sounds like butter to them. What is given is not work with a bayonet and butt, but a general system of body alignment and the principle of continuous change of these alignments. What we call the "engine" of the system. Whether there is something in the hands or not, the principle of movement does not change. It can be right side and this same movement is used for a side butt strike. This is the base of all oriental schools. It doesn't take long to learn these basics.
              Quote: Beck
              I don’t know why it turns out

              You yourself answered this question.
              Quote: Beck
              Why competition boxers boxing

              If you do not remove the techniques that are used in the battle for destruction, then there will be no entertainment. The battle will end in a maximum of 30 - 40 seconds and no one will really see anything, tk. such a battle is conducted at a medium distance, when you can reach the hand, elbow, knee, foot, head with a maximum of striking surfaces, and due to continuous contact with the enemy, it goes faster than from the eyes of infa about the enemy through "selfish sensitivity". From the outside, for an uninitiated person, it's just not clear what is being done there and did not have time to pour champagne, and one is already wheezing on the ground. This is how the first underground fighting without rules in Moscow failed commercially back in the early 80s. Someone lured there the guys who returned from Angola, who studied with the Cubans for very specific purposes, to put it mildly, not related to sports. And the opponents were guys from sports sections and some sort of urges. The audience was terribly unhappy.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 17 January 2013 14: 54
                +1
                Yes, a short sports fight without entertainment is meaningless. In 2001, the whole republic watched with bated breath at the match of our favorite boxer Vasily Zhirov for the "golden belt" with Gonzalez. The hall for 6000 people was completely packed. Even the president was a spectator in the hall. The fight was calculated for 12 rounds.
                I watched at home, cooked snacks with friends))) As a result, the fight ended in ... the second minute with a knockout blow by Zhirov on the enemy. In the beginning, everyone was taken aback - how so? Where is the spectacle? Then, of course, they applauded, but I still wanted to watch a beautiful show, punches, blocks, dodging, tension of the fighters, empathize with boxers, worry about "our own", get angry with the "enemy". And then - hop and that's it)))) The disappointment was above the roof for everyone. Of course, Zhirov is handsome, but a very quick victory for people is not interesting. Fact.
      2. Botanologist
        Botanologist 16 January 2013 19: 49
        0
        Take a better look at Shogan's Killer. Of course, there are a lot of cinematic effects, but the whole fight in the film comes down to one sword strike. What, in fact, is the battle itself.
      3. Manul
        Manul 17 February 2014 02: 22
        0
        Some kind of dregs. The one in the background showed the best reaction and won the sparring from the first run. Obviously, according to the conditions, the sparring should be conducted with an open palm. The second (young and proud) works almost in full contact - with his fists. The first clearly does not want aggravation. and the "fight" ends. I feel nauseous to those for whom victory is important at any cost, and the rules are not law for them. There is no tinny here. And if you miss a couple of fists, then of course it's not up to victory with your palms.
    4. davoks
      davoks 16 January 2013 14: 22
      0
      Cheng Tinghua (1848-1900)

      Cheng Tinghua is the most famous (along with Yin Fu) among Dong Haichuan's students. In the capital, he was nicknamed "The Spectacled Cheng" because he made a living by trading glasses. He studied Baguazhang from his teacher for ten years and achieved outstanding results. Since 1894, Cheng, together with masters Liu Dekuan and Liu Weixian, worked to unite Baguazhang and Taijiquan into one martial arts. During the Yihetuan uprising, when the troops of European powers rushed into Beijing, robbing and killing civilians, Cheng Tinghua jumped out into knives and entered the battle with a platoon of German soldiers, having managed to destroy ten of them before he was hit by a bullet. Although many argue that they saw the master alive and later.
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 16 January 2013 15: 26
        +1
        davoks

        Quote: davoks
        During the Ichtuan revolt, when troops of European powers broke into Beijing, robbing and killing civilians, Chen Tinghua ran out into the street with two knives and fought with a platoon of German soldiers, having managed to destroy ten of them before he was hit by a bullet. Although many claim that they saw the master alive and later.


        forgive me generously, please remind me what exactly happened in the future with their Etuans, how the RB masters influenced the course of the uprising and what is the real result of the RB masters clash with the soldiers armed with guns, machine guns and rifles?
        1. davoks
          davoks 16 January 2013 16: 12
          +1
          and Wushu masters the whole army was? a clash of one master with a platoon of soldiers armed with rifles wrote. there is a difference between wushu masters and those who simply practice it
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 16 January 2013 16: 21
            0
            davoks

            Quote: davoks
            a clash of one master with a platoon of soldiers armed with rifles wrote.


            You wrote a beautiful legend, which is not confirmed by anything.
            I know that too.
            1. davoks
              davoks 16 January 2013 17: 03
              0
              this is not a legend. drive Cheng Tinghua into Yandex and read
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 16 January 2013 17: 34
                +1
                davoks

                and there are pictures with a platoon of corpses?
                but I didn’t find a movie with a fight on the u-tube. No.

                Quote: davoks
                drive Cheng Tinghua into Yandex and read


                here it is


                Quote: davoks
                Cheng Tinghua rushed out into the street with two knives and joined the battle with a platoon of German soldiers, having managed to destroy ten of them before he was hit by a bullet. Although many claim to have seen the masters alive and later


                classic kungfu legend with a happy end.
                into the existence of Cheng Tinghua a - I have no doubt.
      2. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 16 January 2013 16: 41
        +1
        Rimbaud is stronger than Chen Tinghua angry bully
    5. Mairos
      Mairos 16 January 2013 16: 34
      +8
      It is not so much a practical necessity (because, as one familiar specialist told me, it is much more important to be able to run to shoot and disguise yourself), but that hand-to-hand training fosters a fighting character and forms a whole series of psychophysical skills needed in battle.
      And by the way, no matter how there was in hoary antiquity, even if the legends about the antiquity of the Rusboy are a myth, then this is a useful myth, it is impossible to destroy myths that form the pride of the people in their past. This is one of the basics of the information war. )))
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 16 January 2013 16: 39
        0
        Mairos

        Quote: Mairos
        hand-to-hand training instills a fighting character and forms a whole series of psychophysical skills needed in battle.



        Quote: Mairos
        even if the legends about the antiquity of the Rusboy are a myth, then this is a useful myth, it is impossible to destroy the myths that form the pride of the people in their past.


        I completely agree.
    6. Ascetic
      Ascetic 16 January 2013 23: 12
      +6
      Beck,

      To engage in hand-to-hand combat, a special forces soldier must ...
      machine gun, gun, bayonet-knife, sapper blade, helmet, bowler hat, flask, belt, find a clean, level platform, the second same woodpecker and engage in hand-to-hand combat
      1. Beck
        Beck 17 January 2013 11: 56
        +3
        Quote: Ascetic
        To engage in hand-to-hand combat, a special forces soldier must ... take: an automatic machine, a gun, a bayonet-knife, a sapper blade, a helmet, a bowler hat, a flask, a belt, find a clean, level ground, a second same wood-handler and enter into hand-to-hand fighting scrum


        Yes, Ascetic, you are absolutely right. And the most important thing. The most difficult of all that you have listed is to find the second Dolbyodyat, and they will shoot at once.

        A similar joke.

        Chapaev wakes up, all in a hangover. Petka comes in.

        - Vasily Ivanovich, the dispatch has arrived, you are being summoned to the army headquarters for a meeting.
        Chapai.
        - Petka, edrit your left that you do not see my headache. You ride. If, what do you say, there that Chapai left for reconnaissance.

        Petka is leaving. Returns in the evening, comes to Chapay. Chapai.

        “Well, what were they doing?”
        - The operational-tactical situation is such that it is planned by our division to make a flank strike ...
        - Yes, you drop this fen-edren. They said something about me.
        Petka sighing.
        - They said. Someone called you a bird, as it ... forgot ...
        Seat your feet in the pool.
        - Eagle, or something called?
        - No.
        - The falcon?
        - No.
        - Golden eagle?
        - Well no. Here is one that knocks on wood.
        - Woodpecker, or what?
        Petka is joyful.
        - In, in. Butcher.
      2. CHILD
        CHILD 17 January 2013 15: 51
        0
        hands boxing, legs no higher than the waist, creases and throwing technique ..... everything)))) what to invent? yes, and be aware that we are all meat (everyone has eyes, groin and throat)))) the worked out group of any Schwartz will smear ....
      3. heathen
        heathen 17 January 2013 18: 11
        +1
        “Hand-to-hand combat is a kind of close combat with the use of martial arts by the warring parties various types of weapons, items of equipment, improvised means, as well as without them at a distance of direct contact with the task of defeating each other ”(c) Combat charter of ground forces
    7. s1н7т
      s1н7т 17 January 2013 13: 17
      +1
      Quote: Beck
      in no battle did kungfists play any role in the outcome of the battle.

      But what about the "boxer rebellion"?
      1. Beck
        Beck 17 January 2013 15: 19
        +2
        Quote: c1n7
        But what about the "boxer rebellion"?


        This is only by name. The roots are completely different. First of all, this discontent with the dominance of foreign powers, which led to the distress of the population.

        "In such conditions, in 1898 in northern China, many spontaneously formed detachments with various names began to operate actively:" Ihequan "(" Fist for justice and harmony ")," Ihetuan "(" Troops of justice and peace ")," Yiminhui " ("Union of the Just"), "Dadaohui" ("Union of Great Swords"), etc. "

        "Many members of this organization (Yihetuan) regularly practiced physical exercises (quan), reminiscent of fistfights, for which they were later called by Europeans" boxers "

        "Their detachments included poor peasants, ruined artisans, lost transport workers and demobilized soldiers, as well as women and teenagers, which especially struck foreigners."


        So, the main force of the uprising was the poor. And the rebellion itself failed.
        1. Kir
          Kir 17 January 2013 17: 35
          0
          So yes, not quite, the backbone was still made up of "specialists" - members of the Huidans, who agreed to cooperate with the Manchus, besides, seeing that the situation was not in favor of the rebels, cunning and cruel, more correctly unprincipled, Tsy Xi, went to an alliance with the Europeans , well, as a result, we have what we have - numerous victims, and the Huidans go underground again, by the way, which arose precisely as a response to the Manchu acupation.
    8. heathen
      heathen 17 January 2013 17: 37
      +1
      "In modern combat, hand-to-hand combat is useless at all."

      But the samurai were wise people. they said: "Even if you only need a sword once in your life, you should always carry it with you."

      In addition, hand-to-hand combat is not only knowledge of three punches with a hand and two legs. It is also a special physical preparation that gives quick reaction, coordination of movements, speed, flexibility, accuracy, a sense of distance, knowledge of one’s capabilities, and most importantly - the ability to think in a critical situation. just courage and instincts here oh how not enough.
  3. donchepano
    donchepano 16 January 2013 10: 11
    +16
    Prepare youth (children) for hand-to-hand fighting - useful
    drunkenness - fight
  4. erased
    erased 16 January 2013 10: 16
    +5
    So Belov surfaced. After the nineties, there was not a word about him. Again, "serpentine battle", citing sources whose authenticity has long been in question, an analysis of the direct meaning ...
    It is interesting how he would explain the special power of training and spirit from the phrase: "As I will give it, you will fly to the seventh heaven!" As a special form of combat grasp, or that some angels owned it? And the kid says this during his showdown. Hyperbolization is so ...
    I then and now can not understand what Belov and his supporters, hiding behind loud and incomprehensible pseudonyms, want to say? What were the ancestors of the Russian hoo warriors? That hand-to-hand fighting in Russia was the best? Or what do they own this technique and can teach it? Not so, of course.
    Perhaps the financial side here is the main one. There is nothing wrong with this, everyone earns as much as he can. I remember about 15-20 years ago in an article it was written that, like on their company shirts, sacred ciphers of technology were embroidered. What was it? Advertising, PR move?
    Hand-to-hand combat - as a technique, was first composed in the empire. which is now called either Roman or Byzantine. That is, in a state where everything was clearly structured. Where there is time and opportunity to collect data, analyze it and develop a methodology for preparing the army.
    Later, techniques began to appear in Europe, the first textbooks on fencing, where drawings were given with techniques, including strokes, grabs, and steps. Everywhere with weapons.
    In Russia, of course, they also knew how to fight (how else!) And knew the methods of battle. Something was taken from the neighbors, something in the empire. But to elevate this knowledge and skills to the rank of the absolute is impossible.
    In the modern world, hand-to-hand combat - as a training system for a warrior (rather than an athlete) - is clearly spelled out in the Manual on Physical Training. There are given all the tricks of how to fight without weapons, and with weapons. It’s simple, simple, and that’s what you need.
    I will not say that this is the best, but in reality this is enough precisely in the conditions of the current war. And nobody will teach two, three years of a soldier. He serves for a year. Officer? But he does not really need RB. Enough of other sciences.
    Now the sports direction is more developed, it is simply more relevant. There are enough clubs for historical fencing, hand-to-hand combat. There are enthusiasts, such as the Ratibor club in Kolomna. The guys took and are taking prizes in international competitions in artistic fencing - there is such a sports federation.
    But this is no longer military science.
    So the article is rather a reminder of Belov himself and a retelling of a long time ago.
    Все.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 16 January 2013 12: 42
      +3
      erased "Again" serpentine battle ", citing sources whose authenticity has long been in question, analysis of the direct meaning ..."
      As I understand it, it’s kind of an alternative story ... When you look at medieval maps and confidently proclaim, you see it says Tartaria, it means it was. In relation to the Russian style, we fought so much, so it should have been ...
      1. erased
        erased 16 January 2013 12: 52
        -1
        In relation to the Russian style, we fought so much, so it should have been ...


        Super argument! Bravo!
      2. davoks
        davoks 16 January 2013 15: 19
        +1
        Tartaria (Latin Tartaria, French. Tartarie, Eng. Tartary) is a general term used in Western European literature and cartography in relation to vast areas from the Caspian to the Pacific Ocean and to the borders of China and India. The use of the term can be traced from the XIII and up to the XIX century
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 16 January 2013 16: 21
          0
          davoks "Tartary (Latin Tartaria, French Tartarie, English Tartary) is a general term"
          The conversation is already being conducted not about the territory, but about the state. With the population and the Tartars al Bartarii freely living in these territories. Take away the extra p and everything will fall into place without imagination.
          1. davoks
            davoks 16 January 2013 17: 04
            0
            Tatarstan - such a country has never been. There are no extra letters there
            1. Ivanushra
              Ivanushra 17 January 2013 04: 59
              +1
              Tartar [] 1. 1) Tatar, Tatar 2) Tatar (belongs to the Turkic group of languages) 3) a) a man of wild, unbridled disposition b) vixen, fury 4) strong opponent 2. 1) Tatar 2) wild, unbridled) From the English-Russian dictionary. In Russia, I heard the name Kilkuri and asked how it is translated, but it turned out to be a local accent and the name of the guy Gregory.
            2. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 17 January 2013 06: 16
              0
              davoks "Tataria - there has never been such a country. There are no extra letters there"
              Yeah, Tartaria was! Hehe ...
  5. Iraclius
    Iraclius 16 January 2013 10: 19
    +4
    The article is controversial. In general, the attitude towards Russian martial art is ambiguous and here's why. All these attempts to find in the ancient chronicles some hints of the existence of Martial Arts Schools in Russia do not stand up to criticism, since they do not contain any direct indications of such. This is not the case for the peoples neighboring with Russia, which consisted of approximately the same level of development, which is confirmed both by archaeological finds and written evidence. If, by some unfortunate accident, the Russians "forgot" about the existence of such systems in their own countries, then the analogue would certainly be preserved among the neighbors - the Germanic tribes or other Slavs. But there is no such thing. But there is a system of combat training - general physical, archery, sword, spear, sulitsa, horseback riding. Well, the remakes simply absorbed the elements of many existing martial arts, creatively rethinking some of the elements. As for the second main element of martial art - spiritual improvement, it is associated with the specifics of traditional Eastern religious and philosophical systems, which, of course, did not exist in Russia. Christian ethics and morality are far from this. That is why, in my opinion, the emergence of martial art in the modern sense in Russia was hardly possible.
    1. erased
      erased 16 January 2013 10: 32
      0
      Art (from church glorious art (Latin experimentum - experience); old glorious art - experience, less often torture, torture - figurative understanding of reality; the process or outcome of the expression of the creator’s internal or external world in an (artistic) way; creativity, directed in such a way that it reflects the interest not only of the author himself, but also of other people.
      This is from Wikipedia.
      As you can see, the modern understanding of this term is not very suitable for the concept of "combat". Martial art - yes, it's closer here.
      As for the origins ... Sorry, for primitivism - hit in the face with a shout "On, stsuka!" or with the thought "How beautiful is a summer thunderstorm on a sultry afternoon" - this is not an indicator of spirituality. Rather, the attitude to what is happening. Well, what kind of spirituality in destruction or fighting?
      But one thing is certain - when you know how to beat and win - the desire to wave your fists in vain disappears somewhere. But it is rather experience and understanding, to which everything can lead. And without any philosophy.
      1. SIT
        SIT 16 January 2013 11: 52
        -1
        Quote: erased
        Well, what spirituality is destruction or a fight?

        No. Yes, and Schools, Teachers for combat training is not necessary. The usual natural selection was going on - the one who survived passed on to the others how he did it. Experience was accumulated and transmitted in the military estate from generation to generation. It’s just in the East that these skills were used to create another form of Tao or Do, which, as you know, in translation means the Way. The task of the Path is to approach the Absolute as close as possible, having reached the state of nirvana. Maybe the Way of the monk, maybe the Way of the yogi. One option is zen. His idea is that instead of a gradual achievement, a breakthrough is possible due to the mobilization of all internal physical and spiritual forces. For example, the Teacher can constantly confuse the student with some kind of koens, and the student already has a roof and he starts to go crazy, but at some limit suddenly enlightenment of consciousness comes. What is now called an altered state of consciousness. So someone in those days noticed that during a fight in case of mortal danger a person involuntarily sets in this altered state. Suddenly, everyone around him begins to move as if performing forms of Tai Chi Quan slowly and smoothly. In fact, the battle is at the same speed, just the speed of perception grows 5-6 times. This is the way to break into a state of altered consciousness and was taken as the basis of the Warrior's Way. The combat technique is simply a means of advancing along this Path. The technique should naturally be without any conventions and really deadly, otherwise the instinct of self-preservation will not turn on. Since irreparable losses among students, that is, corpses, this is not the goal of the Teacher, then naturally the technique has been refined for years. The student must survive and, at the same time, help his comrade achieve a state of enlightenment, and for this he must really try to kill him. Actually, the main spiritual life then began after fixing the entry point to the Issus during the battle. In the future, to enter this state it was enough keys that were given in the tao, kata and engage in battle was not necessary. But these keys do not work if you really did not stand in the battle for destruction. Therefore, modern kata competitions in karate and Tao in Wushu are just rhythmic gymnastics to the Do and Tao are not related. Thus, a misunderstanding of the eastern views on the concept of Tao led to various lengthy discussions about spirituality in martial art. In fact, the opposite is true - martial art is just a means to move along one of the Ways of developing spirituality.
        1. erased
          erased 16 January 2013 12: 58
          -1
          The idea of ​​a transition to a special state was still with the Vikings with their berserkers.
          And now something is being done in this direction.
          But here to confuse the army (army, squad) with warrior in your understanding is not worth it. For comparison, take the NFP of the Soviet or Russian army or the PLA army or the United States. look how much time is allotted there for Belarus. And how much time is given for fire training and others.
          Warriors - soldiers are being trained in a mass stream. Special forces are prepared by stream, selectively.
          But always complex. political training or moral-volitional training can go along the way. But never any special spirituality.
          We are talking about several different concepts.
          1. SIT
            SIT 16 January 2013 13: 17
            0
            Quote: erased
            But confuse the army (army, squad) with the warrior in your understanding

            I do not confuse. The Way of the Warrior is one of the types of the Way that the monks of some monasteries walked. And that’s not all. In the same Shaolin, not all monks practice Wushu. This has nothing to do with the army. Quite the contrary. If we take the same PLA, then the special forces are replenished, among others, by those students who have undergone training in Shaolin, but by some parameters are unsuitable for further spiritual practices. And most of them. In modern language, non-standardization is unsuitable for further spiritual advancement along the Path to sports, the army, and the film industry.
            1. erased
              erased 16 January 2013 13: 25
              0
              He is about Thomas, he is about Yerema.
              Initially, the article was about the Russian style, and not about the ways of Tao, Shao, and Mao.
              Let Shaolin and others like them go their way wherever they want. And where does the army prepare for close combat? What spirituality is there?
              You raise the other, but it's not about her.
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 16 January 2013 13: 41
                +4
                erased

                all this, about the "Russian style", --- pouring from empty to empty, so I personally don't care who invented the wheel, or who first came up with the throw over the thigh, I just use it and copyrights don't bother me at all.

                Quote: erased
                Initially, the article was about the Russian style, and not about the ways of Tao, Shao, and Mao.


                oh well, everyone knows that martial arts were invented by protouriras, by the way, and the egyptian pyramids, and then they taught a visiting Chinese and went and went bully .
            2. romb
              romb 16 January 2013 13: 43
              +4
              About the training of "Shaolin fighters". In the middle of the XNUMXs I traveled to XUAR, the city of Urumqi. There, on the site in front of one of the entertainment centers, a group of Shaolin monks performed a show. They showed all sorts of spectacular circus miracles - spinning taolu, walking on fire, bending spears on their necks, etc. At the end of the performance, one of the senior students invited any of the onlookers present to fight. One of my acquaintances called - a former boxer.
              In short, the fight ended very quickly, and with unpleasant consequences for the Chinese "warrior-monk". To be honest, I still didn't understand what kind of fight they were proposing, since after the Chinese fell from a two in the head, the monks began to be indignant, showing with all their appearance that the fight was not the rules.
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 16 January 2013 14: 01
                +5
                romb

                Quote: romb
                One of my friends called out - a former boxer.
                In short, the battle ended about ... very quickly


                screaming furiously and sputtering

                if the monk owned a fighting hopak everything would have turned out --- otherwise !!!
                wassat
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 16 January 2013 16: 31
                  +6
                  Karlsonn "if a monk owned a fighting hopak everything would have worked out --- otherwise !!!"
                  This thing is a military hopak specially invented! In order to introduce the enemy into a stupor. He will not understand what he should do to run or clap his hands! And at that time his bang on the head of a saber! Not for nothing about the Ukrainians say they say they are cunning ...
                  1. Karlsonn
                    Karlsonn 16 January 2013 16: 48
                    +1
                    Nagaibak

                    Welcome hi

                    Quote: Nagaibak
                    In order to introduce the enemy into a stupor.


                    something wink there are different styles of hopak bully for example, a military hopak, the style of the wise life of a snake, is used mainly against followers and admirers of the UPA.
                2. dmitreach
                  dmitreach 16 January 2013 21: 08
                  +5
                  color differentiation of pants in real life!

                  Before the owner of the pants, the patsaki and chatlan are required to squat (patsak - twice, and chatlanin - one). In addition, the owners of raspberry pants have immunity status (the Etsiloppas are forbidden to beat them at night).
              2. davoks
                davoks 16 January 2013 14: 29
                +1
                Shaolin has long been an entertainment attraction for tourists. there are no kunfu masters there for a long time
              3. marshes
                marshes 16 January 2013 14: 40
                +2
                Ron is there in Urumqi and other masters are among the Uighurs, Wushu Sanda.
                1. romb
                  romb 16 January 2013 14: 49
                  +2
                  Hello! I know, I studied with Yelukhan and Farhat. But the real effectiveness of Wushu Sanda is also in question. Not for nothing, after all, the club was retrained for muetai.
                  1. marshes
                    marshes 16 January 2013 14: 56
                    +3
                    Quote: romb
                    Hello! I know, I studied with Yelukhan and Farhat. But the real effectiveness of Wushu Sanda is also in question. Not for nothing, after all, the club was retrained for muetai.

                    And at one time I "butted" in training sparring, Elyukhanovites, smile when doing goju-ryu.
                    True, lately who has the trunk and is "right" smile .
                    1. romb
                      romb 16 January 2013 15: 01
                      +1
                      Goju-ryu?
                      Henrikson, Karpov, then colleagues! drinks
                      1. marshes
                        marshes 16 January 2013 15: 08
                        +1
                        I started at V.I.Son.
                        And so I know one, weighing under 150 kg at one time he "bullied" but was "broken" by a puny Korean, with one blow to the head. He shattered the eye socket and was sent to the chelestno-facial for several months.
                        And everyone probably started with a shotokan. smile
                      2. romb
                        romb 16 January 2013 15: 19
                        +1
                        There was a similar case in the hall. There the peasant with the heel of his foot (ura-maawa (s) shi) literally ripped off his eyebrow "with meat". There was a lot of blood.
                      3. marshes
                        marshes 16 January 2013 15: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: romb
                        There was a similar case in the hall. There the peasant with the heel of his foot (ura-maawa (s) shi) literally ripped off his eyebrow "with meat". There was a lot of blood.

                        But this is in the hall and then on the street. Another example is when Nasip to the owner of the gas station, may-geri, held a crack in his forehead.
                        At one time, the Chinese wanted to take control of the flea market, it looked like Chinese militants. smile
                      4. romb
                        romb 16 January 2013 15: 38
                        +2
                        I agree. In street combat, a more significant role is played by the issue of psychological attitudes than the physical training of a fighter. That is, what a person is ready to go to win, and what price he is willing to pay for it ..
                      5. marshes
                        marshes 16 January 2013 15: 52
                        +4
                        Quote: romb
                        In street combat, the issue of psychological attitudes plays a more significant role.

                        Previously, they were kinder, they did not finish off the fallen one. There were no gas and traumatic weapons, the illusion of their "superiority" was not created, if you want to "survive" on the street, go go in for sports.
                        A joke that was not recorded on field hockey so that they would return to the house with clubs. Baseball was not there then. smile
                        And there was always a gopot in the city, and they were divided into districts and schools. As in a song, you want to live, stuff your fists. From Cords.
                      6. romb
                        romb 16 January 2013 16: 15
                        +4
                        if you want to "survive" on the street go go in for sports.

                        Unfortunately, that was before. Personally, I am very grateful to the sport. If it weren’t for sport and the people around me there, I would most likely, like many of my classmates, have taken a completely different path. At a time when a classmate and I went to training almost every day, the rest just stupidly choked, drank beer and sniffed all sorts of crap.
                        Z.Y. I apologize for being a little distracted from the topic.
                      7. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 16 January 2013 16: 36
                        +2
                        Quote: marshes
                        Baseball then it wasn’t

                        Baseball appeared in Ata somewhere in the mid-90s. According to Timiryazev between KazGU and the Botanical Garden, they trained. We looked at them with envy. More precisely on their bits))))
                      8. Botanologist
                        Botanologist 16 January 2013 19: 59
                        0
                        One of my acquaintances, from difficult services, fell on 3 rednecks with a dog on the street. Seconds 8-10 were beating, one blow was called "hoe", as he told me later. Somersault forward and from the back lying down heel kick to the chest. We ran away, we didn't want to wait for the police, but he later told me that winter saved (everyone was wearing quilted jackets), otherwise - a corpse.
                        And you say mawashi-kettlebell ....

                        I’ve been thinking about karate all my life. It turned out - sign language translation.
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 16 January 2013 15: 13
            +1
            Bolot, I also once practiced Goju-Ryu. In Almaty on the territory of "Biokombinat" (Abai-Auezov). The coach's name was Marat, but I don't remember the last name.
            1. marshes
              marshes 16 January 2013 15: 20
              +1
              What year?
              They then opened a network of sports clubs throughout the city, mostly students taught. Since 1991, I have already "trained" in another department. smile
            2. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 16 January 2013 16: 29
              +1
              In the second half of the 90s. And before that he trained in Russia in his father's military unit (OMON Batt.). And not "goju okinawa-do" or some kyokushinkai, but simply and uncomplicatedly called - "karate"))) I did not know then that there were any different styles)))) And the coach was one of the officers. By the way, he is also Kazakh.
              And that Almaty coach Marat now I don’t know where, but then he dreamed of leaving for America. He was still obsessed with energy, meditation, hypnosis, although he was absolutely sober and adequate guy. Interesting person.
            3. marshes
              marshes 16 January 2013 16: 34
              +2
              And we didn’t forget much that the Kazakhs also have a struggle, Қазақша күрес, there is also a striking technique, as well as the possession of a sword, spear, ax.
            4. romb
              romb 16 January 2013 16: 37
              +2
              Almaty trainer Marat

              And by chance, he didn’t whisper a little?
            5. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 16 January 2013 16: 41
              0
              Quote: romb
              And by chance, he didn’t whisper a little?

              damn, honestly I don’t remember exactly. almost 20 years have passed. but he seemed to have some kind of very small speech impediment. but it’s certain that even if he lisped, it’s quite a bit, otherwise I would have remembered it well. he wore glasses at the usual time.
            6. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 16 January 2013 16: 44
              +1
              damn, now I closed my eyes, tried to remember him. EXACTLY LISSED! a little but lisped! In general, he looked like an intelligence.
            7. romb
              romb 16 January 2013 16: 53
              0
              If I'm not mistaken, he comes from Sakura
        2. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 16 January 2013 16: 39
          +1
          and he was also obsessed with Zen Buddhism. was very crazy))))
        3. marshes
          marshes 16 January 2013 16: 47
          0
          Tree sticks, smile I remember!
        4. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 16 January 2013 17: 08
          +1
          Well, we can’t calm down until we find common relatives or acquaintances))))))))))

          "... You cannot interrogate the Kazakhs, because after five minutes of interrogation it will be revealed that he is your relative. How can you then shoot him?"
          (from a well-known joke)
        5. marshes
          marshes 16 January 2013 17: 15
          +2
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          "... You cannot interrogate the Kazakhs, because after five minutes of interrogation it will be revealed that he is your relative. How can you then shoot him?"

          laughing laughing laughing 1.5 million live in the city, in the district there are the same number of people and the most surprising is that everyone knows each other, if not directly, then through friends.
          I was at a wedding, I saw my neighbors, and in the morning I saw them and I thought where they were going. laughing
        6. Beck
          Beck 16 January 2013 19: 25
          +3
          Yes. The mentality is hard to redo. It may be difficult for the Slavs to understand, but I will tell you.

          In 60 years, one elder, from the aul, came to Almaty to his father. He went out onto the platform, stopped a passerby and asked if he knew where he lived such and such. Of course the passerby did not know. Thus, the elder asked a few more people and received only negative answers. Aksaqual was angry.

          - Hey, Mnau Toke Kandai Adam. Ishkim Belmeide. Ay Zhaman Adam Calada Bolda. And what kind of person this is, no one knows him. Probably bad in the city.

          Aksakal went to the ticket office, bought a return ticket and drove home.
  • Val_y
    Val_y 17 January 2013 17: 18
    0
    Exactly, "There is no better karate than two TTs in your pockets" laughing
  • heathen
    heathen 17 January 2013 18: 26
    0
    Quote: erased
    Well, what spirituality is destruction or a fight?

    Well, when the enemy comes there is an alternative - either to fight (that is, to fight. To destroy) and it is quite possible to die at the same time, or to escape / betray and remain alive. This is where the true spirituality is manifested both of those who "Na, stsuka!", And those who "How beautiful is a summer thunderstorm on a sultry afternoon" ...
  • IsailoR
    IsailoR 26 June 2013 10: 47
    0
    Maybe there were no schools, but there were military systems in each locality.
    For example, Slavic-Goritskaya, Lyubki, plastun, etc.
    And the names of elementary techniques or body positions also remained (flicker, mug, smell, odor block, etc.)
    Where does all this come from?
  • vorobey
    vorobey 16 January 2013 10: 29
    +10
    I live the fifth dozen. and still has not given up on the symbiosis that Kharlampiev Sr. created. The topics of hand-to-hand combat and knife fighting have already been discussed here; I do not want to repeat myself. there is also the concept of battle tactics.

    Already teaching at a departmental university I had to put my cadets to competitions in the army of Belarus. and so, if you have little experience, it doesn’t matter. You are a boxer, a fighter, if you can’t build a tactical fight, you will definitely lose. My guys took prizes more often, although there were mostly boxers among them. Work from the second issue, do not go into close combat and watch his hands at his feet.

    now the sons are engaged in combat sambo. It turns out helps in life have both been convinced. and the phrase that a large cupboard falls loudly makes a lot of sense.
    1. erased
      erased 16 January 2013 10: 50
      +3
      The system that is now called sambo was created by Vasily Oshchepkov. And Kharlampiev is his student. This information can now be found anywhere with a detailed description.
      1. vorobey
        vorobey 16 January 2013 10: 57
        +3
        Quote: erased
        created Oshchepkov Vasily. And Kharlampiev is his student


        plus

        Well, for the championship we will not butt. Kharlampiev systematized and summarized. And from Oshchepkov he did not take everything.
        1. erased
          erased 16 January 2013 11: 03
          +2
          What, how and when he created Oshchepkov - can be found on the net, there is a lot of material. What systematized Kharlampiev I do not know. But after the war it was he who was set to develop the newly named system and he did a lot for development and access to the international level.
          And Oshchepkov died in prison, his name was banned for a long time. that’s the whole focus with authorship.
          By the way - Vasily Oshchepkov received the second judo dan from the hands of the founder Dzigaro Kano. And in the future he called his new system free judo. After his death, the system was called the freestyle wrestling.
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 16 January 2013 11: 11
            +3
            Quote: erased
            What systematized Kharlampiev I do not know


            It is true that the student could systematize? Let's fight because of this?
            1. erased
              erased 16 January 2013 11: 36
              0
              By the rules of sumo? Or fighting Nanai boys?
              1. vorobey
                vorobey 16 January 2013 11: 44
                +2
                Quote: erased
                By the rules of sumo?


                Bumping their bellies? come on with pillows, the loser covers. drinks
                1. erased
                  erased 16 January 2013 11: 49
                  +1
                  Then it’s better to start right away by covering.
                  1. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 16 January 2013 12: 45
                    +1
                    erased "Then it is better to start right away with covering."
                    Will you take a judge? Or immediately third! Then I'm having a glass ...
                    1. vorobey
                      vorobey 16 January 2013 12: 57
                      +2
                      Quote: Nagaibak
                      Will you take a judge? Or immediately third! Then I'm having a glass ...


                      fans gather with their appetizer. hi
                    2. erased
                      erased 16 January 2013 12: 59
                      +1
                      Then for the bottle ... (s)
        2. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 17 January 2013 18: 39
          0
          Kharlampiev led a section at our institute after the war. My coach was one of his students. So Kharlampiev never said that he created sambo. He really disliked this topic, frowned and asked "you don't meddle in this matter."
          By the way, he showed some captures and tricks, for example, for taking the tongue. He showed specifically so that it was impossible to repeat, just indicated how to become so that not everything was visible. Those who served as assistants to him said that although he holds them with one hand, he doesn’t even jerk, not even escaping! There are no such techniques in sambo. They went on a subscription, and to see so deeply that they simply disappeared. Secret is easy to lose. Very sorry...
          1. erased
            erased 18 January 2013 21: 09
            0
            There are no secret tricks, strikes, captures. Someone invented them earlier, and later.
            It all depends on why and who is being trained. No one will show how to take their eyes out in the sambo section of the institute. And how to take the collarbone or neck, too.
            On the contrary, it is in the army. but the police are not again. They just don't need it. Other tasks, different equipment.
  • erased
    erased 16 January 2013 11: 02
    0
    What, how and when he created Oshchepkov - can be found on the net, there is a lot of material. What systematized Kharlampiev I do not know. But after the war it was he who was set to develop the newly named system and he did a lot for development and access to the international level.
    And Oshchepkov died in prison, his name was banned for a long time. that’s the whole focus with authorship.
    By the way - Vasily Oshchepkov received the second judo dan from the hands of the founder Dzigaro Kano. And in the future he called his new system free judo. After his death, the system was called the freestyle wrestling.
  • Oidsoldier
    Oidsoldier 16 January 2013 12: 32
    +5
    The effectiveness of melee actions depends more on his psychology than on school. Why become like the Chinese or Japanese traditions of training fighters (schools) if this did not take root in Russia. Our people are more practical and could not spend a lot of precious time on honing the technique of hitting a little finger in the eye or contemplating a duel between a snake and a crane. Despite the fact that a good punch in the chin or temple decides the outcome of a duel with any opponent in strength and size - there was no point in inventing any systems.
    1. romb
      romb 16 January 2013 12: 50
      +2
      I agree. All this knowledge and skills (given, ranks and titles) without proper psychological (psychophysical) training is mostly ordinary sports tinsel, far from real combat.
  • Kerch
    Kerch 16 January 2013 12: 56
    0
    "A good blow to the chin or temple with a fist decided the outcome of a duel with any opponent of any strength and size - there was no point in inventing any systems."

    Here, in part, I do not agree with you. A knockout punch to the chin with a punch of the whole mass needs to be trained and trained. The temple is simpler, but you also need to know how to beat. For an untrained person, a punch is more of a poke, maybe a strong poke, but not a punch.
    1. Oidsoldier
      Oidsoldier 16 January 2013 14: 17
      0
      Quote: Kerch
      Here, in part, I do not agree with you. A knockout punch to the chin with a punch of the whole mass needs to be trained and trained. The temple is simpler, but you also need to know how to beat. For an untrained person, a punch is more of a poke, maybe a strong poke, but not a punch.

      You won’t swim without a workout, you won’t ride a bike, etc. To practice something, you need practice. In ancient times fist fights were arranged quite often. And the practice was enough. A blow to the chin with the whole mass is not needed. Decides the speed and surprise of the blow. There are experts who knocked out the enemy not with his fist but with folded two fingers - index and middle. Side impact with the help of rotational movement of the body is mastered once and the impact force is impressive. A direct hit is closer to art. Here and the calculation of time and a sense of distance and the correct movement of the hand, etc., etc.
      1. Beck
        Beck 16 January 2013 17: 05
        +3
        Yes, and you do not need strength with an accurate hit in the chin. The upper branches of the lower jaw are not tight, but in contact with the bones of the skull. When applying force to the tip of the chin, the upper branches of the jaw play the role of levers that shake the entire cranium, which leads to a knockout. But to send a knockout with a blow to the forehead or on the side of the head, here you need a lot of strength. For doubters, try yourself to slowly hit the tip of your chin - you will immediately feel how the whole skull shakes.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 16 January 2013 17: 41
          +3
          Beck

          Quote: Beck
          For doubters, try yourself to slowly hit the tip of your chin


          do not be mischievous! stop

          I'll throw in:
          - Than judo and karate are better than an old TT!

          will you advise something again

          Quote: Beck
          try yourself slowly


          I’m even afraid to put how it might end what .
          1. Beck
            Beck 16 January 2013 21: 33
            +1
            Quote: Karlsonn
            I’m even afraid to put how it might end


            Here are those on St. George's Day. Well it is necessary to turn around, vigorous louse. So then I let him down under the monastery. And how did I have a thought on you, that was deafening, that was drawbar. I thought you’ll go through your images after the recline. It’s not good how it happened, oh, how bad it is. Forum users now in their ignorance will remain. Well, what’s tepericha, not a bulo so not a bulo.
  • MRomanovich
    MRomanovich 16 January 2013 14: 29
    0
    I am sure that, in ancient times, combatants were taught hand-to-hand fighting skills. it can also be assumed that these skills were somehow systematized for the quick training of fighters. in short, everything is just like in a regular army, but nothing more can be said about the development of these skills in the category of art. and yet, all these martial arts do not give a tangible advantage over simpler disciplines like boxing or sambo.
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 16 January 2013 15: 39
      +3
      MRomanovich hi

      Quote: MRomanovich
      in short, everything is just like in a regular army, but nothing more can be said about the development of these skills in the category of art.


      wink




      Quote: MRomanovich
      and yet, all these martial arts do not give a tangible advantage over simpler disciplines like boxing or sambo.


      history shows that a trained, disciplined detachment of soldiers bends a detachment consisting of good individual fighters.

  • FIMUK
    FIMUK 16 January 2013 16: 13
    +1
    The moon didn’t want to be reflected in the water,
    Water did not want to reflect the moon.
    Oh, how beautiful the waters of Hirosawa are (p.)
    wink
    1. marshes
      marshes 16 January 2013 16: 20
      0

      Something similar. smile
  • Dioxsin
    Dioxsin 16 January 2013 16: 38
    0
    The article is somehow incomprehensible. About nothing.
  • FIMUK
    FIMUK 16 January 2013 16: 50
    0
    I could be wrong, but it seems like a source of temporary time is not very popular in the scientific community.
    As an example of the Russian military spirit, it is better to disassemble-E. Kolovrat. this incident, according to our chronicles, also passes through the Horde, i.e., the fact took place.
  • Karlsonn
    Karlsonn 16 January 2013 16: 58
    +3
    Quote: marshes

    Something similar.

    wink
  • georg737577
    georg737577 16 January 2013 17: 28
    +1
    Personal; a sharpened sapper blade is the "queen" of hand-to-hand combat ...
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 17 January 2013 02: 32
      +2
      Quote: georg737577
      Personal; a sharpened sapper blade is the "queen" of hand-to-hand combat ...




  • Stiletto
    Stiletto 16 January 2013 17: 31
    0
    Yeah Geisha, sake, hara-kiri, tsunami - this is what destroys us.
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 16 January 2013 18: 36
      0
      Stiletto

      You forgot there! recourse
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 17 January 2013 02: 35
        +1
        here's another :



        I didn’t even know that during the war all-Union competitions were held belay
  • ildar335
    ildar335 16 January 2013 17: 36
    +2
    Quote: georg737577
    Personal; a sharpened sapper blade is the "queen" of hand-to-hand combat ...

    I completely agree !!! death to NATO soldiers, they will fight when they see our dirty soldier jumping into the trenches, his face twisted with rage, with a bloodied sapper in his hand !!! am
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 17 January 2013 02: 37
      +6
      Quote: ildar335
      , they’ll fight when they see our dirty soldier jumping into the trenches, his face twisted with rage, with a bloodied sapper in his hand !!!


      they are not the first time

  • Slavs
    Slavs 16 January 2013 18: 41
    +1
    My grandmother told me how her father (my great-grandfather) ran from home to fist fights, and the bribe chased him for this with a broom, and drove him out of the clearing .. I was small, did not ask for details, now I regret it, of course .... Great-grandfather when forcing The Dnieper disappeared, along with my son, my grandmother’s brother ... Now there’s nobody there, you won’t ask ... The great-grandfather said was wiry and was considered a good fist, beaten away .... So there was something, maybe not the system, but certain skills were for sure ... And personal observations ... It doesn’t matter, in principle, what you do, it’s important move ... As tough as possible, then there will be a result. I tried ...))) I had to reconsider my training ...))) I have a trainer from former criminal elements, now I have hit God and faith ... A very practical person ... I don’t impose my opinion, as always mine .. .
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 16 January 2013 19: 24
    +2
    The author began in health ... then I remembered - the grandmother is for instructing to mow nnada! Where did the "martial arts schools" originate? It's a lie that you can't do such things in the village. The question is different. This arose where large masses of people did not have access to military weapons. Because either weapon or poison (or denunciation). For any - there are some questions that cannot be solved otherwise than death. All fairy tale humanists are, first of all, because they are very squeamish people. And instead of the honest death of the enemy, they love to torture him - for example, willingly replacing the quick death of the body with the hellish death, the slow death of the spirit in the process of "curing mental illnesses."
    And the Russians, like a people from the free century, always had military weapons in their hands. How did we conquer such unparalleled spaces? Taking away weapons, military equipment and skills from people? Well, well ... An attempt now to hold them with an unarmed hand, relying on "professionals" ... but I digress. What's in the passage given in the article? The hero "without weapons" went? Duc of course - no weapons! That is, he threw off his armor, helmet, shield and sword. Two knives, a small hatchet, apparently a flail ... but without that - it's like jumping out without trousers. Without all this, people then did not go to the wind ... Did you twist the ax out of the hands of the attacker? Standard combo for weapon combat. What does "secret martial arts" have to do with it ?! They were followed by the armored (this is important. No sword kladenets and a spear a dildo to a heap will not help against an armored fighter holding a shield in his hand. He will cut "naked" until the hand is wrinkled) "youths", and the hero himself went to negotiations with a goal roll the ringleaders into a ram's horn, and not arrange a sea of ​​blood and heaps of bones from their tributaries. That's all.
    Did we have some kind of "secret martial art"? No, it was not, because there is no need. Forgive me the buzniks, but their description is a description of the tricks adopted in ... the thieves' gang. Fight in the dark, to the sound, sometimes with knives and sticks, in an enclosed space ... In the daytime, of course, it is a carpentry artel. And even then ... they met someone on the road, not very protected ... Did the Russians have hand-to-hand combat? Of course he was! Is he needed? Necessary !!
    Well, what are the special secrets of stenosis, for example? Only one is the education of an unshakable military spirit. That’s why the wall-to-wall battle and I even found ... wild, without memory, degenerated ... but still was in 70! Because it’s too late to bring up a man in battle. Hellish figures of losses of the Great Patriotic command - why? Because people were brave, but keeping yourself in a fist before pain, trauma, wound and death - this must be learned. So you can’t learn this on the battlefield, they’ll kill! Here the Russian people and through centuries carried its absolutely not secret fist wall. Not only hearts - so that you don’t lose your heads in battle! See the flanks, smell the shoulder ... It worked well, take a look at the map - very good!
    Such is the combat use of hand-to-hand combat. For war - only this. And hand-to-hand combat is a must! And defeat the enemy with weapons ...
  • AK-47
    AK-47 16 January 2013 19: 43
    0
    Russia has its own martial arts traditions. The Slavs were known throughout Europe as valiant wars. Since wars in Russia were a frequent occurrence, every man should possess military skills. Starting from a very early age, children through various games, such as “king of the hill”, “on the ice hill” and “heap-mala”, wrestling and throwing, gradually got used to the fact that you need to be able to stand up for the Homeland, family and themselves. When children became adults, games grew into real fights, known as “fist fights”.
  • roninas
    roninas 17 January 2013 00: 08
    +1
    I was surprised and amazed in general by the talk about some "Russian styles" of martial arts. WELL THERE WAS NO RUSSIAN STYLES !!! This is the same as the Ukrainian "Combat hopak" (I laughed specifically) or the style of Cossack scouts. In Russia, of course, fist fights were practiced It seems that this was one of the few fun of agrarian Russia. BUT !!! The main prowess of the Russian fist fighter was the ability to "hold" a blow, evasions were just considered a "zapad" So all these "adepts" of Russian styles, basically, underachieved hand-to-hand fighters, failed kung fu fighters, etc. So the "Russian style" is a myth.
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 17 January 2013 02: 28
      +1
      roninas

      Quote: roninas
      .So "Russian style" is a myth


      maybe so, but there is an opinion that with the advent of Christianity, all this was brought to the root of the same devilry and paganism and even the mention of extortions from written sources.
      The literature that has come down to us is more and more ecclesiastical, all sorts of chronicles of monks, and biographies, which again the monks rewrote.
      No one will say for sure.
      Personally, I am inclined to think that, among other things, we had huge borrowing anywhere, we lived, fought, bordered on a whole bunch of people, they turned to a bunch of different people, so I fully admit that among the same Cossacks (they served as 18 years only) from father to son certain systems could appear, but if we talk about schools, then personally I know only about wrestling.

      but then again, there was a strong persecution of all this by the Church; therefore, we did not have any dragon schools. About the Church here:

      ... In 1274, Metropolitan Cyril, having assembled a cathedral in Vladimir, decided among other rules: "to excommunicate those participating in fist fights and fights with stakes, and not to burial those killed." The clergy considered fist fights a godless thing and punished participants according to church laws.
      1. Kir
        Kir 17 January 2013 04: 31
        0
        The article of course put a minus, since, as a matter of fact, about nothing, and not even interestingly written.
        By the way, for some reason no one and no one, at least in a cursory review of the posts, mentioned the so-called Lyubka style, although the same author does not know who took such a nickname, or this is his name, he should know about its existence By the way, the keepers and masters of this style were buffoons persecuted by Christianity, they are also ministers of ancient cults. Now frank blunders, martial arts, have been brought to China along with Buddhism from India, and what we are now witnessing has developed on its basis from China further everywhere, the only exception it’s Daiviet (present-day Vietnam), it seems they’ve gotten something parallel before, but to talk about karate so generally look when it took shape as a school, who is interested to find out how the older styles were called. In general, it turns out interesting, I looked at the translation of Kempo , according to the national law of fist-fist fighting?
        Now, with regards to what was written by Stern, I don’t know, maybe the thing is that I talked closely with Rodnovers, supporters of old cults, or, as the neo-pagans usually put it, so I not only heard about the GBS, and not only from them, but also directly talked with the topic of who studied with him (years of close communication 2005-2007), now with regards to the fact that supposedly hand-to-hand combat appeared during the Roman Empire, it’s interesting, and then what?
        Now with regards to the Cossacks, let me ask what century their history has been going on, even if there is no consensus on where the name came from, I’m not talking about a military hopak and a blizzard, by the way, I admit that our reborn remake, but there’s still a claim.
    2. Beck
      Beck 17 January 2013 12: 09
      +3
      Quote: roninas
      The main prowess of the Russian fist fighter was the ability to "hold" a blow, evasion was just considered a "zapad"


      I agree. I read a long time ago that before the fight, wall to wall, the most desperate fists came forward. And standing in front of each other, one by one they stuck their fists into the snout of each other, without protection. Who did not fall he was well done.
  • Pinochet000
    Pinochet000 17 January 2013 04: 49
    +3

    Contactless fight.
    1. Kir
      Kir 17 January 2013 04: 59
      0
      Only one minus, it has a distant relation to the topic of the article, but in general, if I do not confuse, then such a system is called astral karate, by the way, part of the Lubka system from the same "opera", my friend somehow experienced by his own example, according to his expression, the soul flies off, continues to move by "inertia" and the body falls into a stupor.
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 17 January 2013 11: 41
      +2
      contactless - garbage for the naive
      1. Pinochet000
        Pinochet000 17 January 2013 13: 06
        0
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        contactless - garbage for the naive

        Did the Marine think so, or do you think this is a production?
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 17 January 2013 14: 05
          +1
          kanesh ruling)))) later the same channel filmed a report in which these hellish masters of contactless battle were debunked)
  • Ivanushra
    Ivanushra 17 January 2013 05: 52
    +2
    I don't know for sure whether in the old days there was a style of hand-to-hand fighting in Russia, but one thing I can say is look at our and Ukrainian folk dances. Notice there the "twisting of the butterfly", and the so-called kick in a jump on 2 opponents, and the squat is also punches, but only in the lower stance, etc. etc. And if this is encrypted transmission from ancestors?
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 17 January 2013 19: 02
      0
      There is nothing encrypted there. What secret dance ?! A completely open thing, learned - apply. Hand-to-hand combat requires strength, endurance and delivered blows. And the latter - least of all. Because without gloves or bandages, you need to specially harden your hands, just to simply tap on the face with an unarmed person. A meaningless translation of time, just as stubbornly learning how to tear the enemy’s throat with a sling Mosin rifle. Well, you can train this ...
      Previously, strength and endurance were not required to be trained separately, and so they were, so there are no techniques. It was necessary to free the body, stretch the ligaments and give freedom of movement. But for this, the dance was - the ability to move freely, quickly knead the body ... well, and then take on serious things - I’ll dig up the saber, for example.
      And as for the "secret messages" ... who remembers how to play siskin? And how can you apply these same movements if you don't have a bat in your hand, but something more serious? But there is no "secret knowledge" here either. Previously, this knowledge was the most obvious ...
  • Pinochet000
    Pinochet000 17 January 2013 06: 10
    -1
    Quote: Ivanushra
    And if this is an encrypted transmission from ancestors?

    Quite possible...
  • Serb
    Serb 17 January 2013 10: 55
    +1
    Apparently, students of any schools are flattered by the realization of the extreme antiquity of what they teach there. It turns out that you treat me like a magic wand, since I’ll come so ancient and immediately have everything and it doesn’t matter for what purpose this style was created, the main thing is that the story is long and colorful. In my opinion, do not care how ancient this or that style is, the main thing is whether you can solve your problems with it, i.e. purely applied value, and any process can be turned into art, even hammering a nail, if you do and strive for beauty with your soul.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 17 January 2013 11: 50
    +1
    The Greek dance "Sirtaki" is a disguised message from the ancestors of the warriors. There in the dance they teach to kick between the legs of bad guys. Greek martial arts "combat sirtaki" - rulez! Only thanks to the fighting sirtaki did the Spartans kick the ass of the Persians !! 111
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 17 January 2013 13: 01
      +2
      Marek Rozny

      Quote: Marek Rozny
      There, in dance, they teach to kick bad guys between the legs.


      screaming wildly:
      - this is the crawl of a magician !!!
  • Locksmith
    Locksmith 17 January 2013 13: 07
    -1
    I really like links to ancient manuscripts, for me it sounds something like this: we take the text, for example, this page, we discard all the Vowels, write it down with ONE consonants, teach the scribe to REMEMBER THIS BOOK, and then make it, for example 50 years, to rewrite this folio, in a normal form, with vowels, with normal names and events, or even funnier - let the one who was sitting next to him let him write down !! And not after 50 years, but after 700 !! laughing This is how absolutely ALL manuscripts look like now, including the tale of bygone years, especially since it is RELIABLY RENEWED IN THE 17TH CENTURY !! That is why now there is so much and all sorts of nonsense appeared under the guise of "lost materials", our mathematicians and physicists Nosovsky and Fomenko wrote about this problem well.
    1. Kir
      Kir 17 January 2013 15: 49
      0
      They said everything well, only at the end they all got rid of these cousinous rethinkers, although classical historians are not far from them.
      1. Locksmith
        Locksmith 17 January 2013 16: 38
        +1
        Quote: Kir
        homegrown rethinkers

        It is difficult to call them "rethinkers", rather "truth-restorers, read not their history, but about HOW THEY RESTORE THE FLOW OF HISTORY, they used SEVERAL MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE methods to prove how they falsified history, but here is a simple example - BOB, that others are completely unclear who is with whom. Or maybe some political goals interfere? And then, after a hundred years, this story will have to be unraveled like a ball. So they say, ALL HISTORY was rewritten to please some forces, at that time ruling. It's useless to argue with them, such a serious technique is used for evidence, and what I do not like how they described YOUR OPTION, so there are not many historians who want something, or, more precisely, CAN ARGUMENTALLY defend the topics written in the books. their ancestors, and we get NOTHING AT ALL WHERE our history has gone? Why did someone write it to us? Why there were no ORIGINALS of all the manuscripts kept in the museum yah? And you say rethinkers
        1. Kir
          Kir 17 January 2013 17: 03
          0
          It is the rethinkers and not the truth-tellers, but with regards to what they impose on us as a story, it is a politically engaged myth, both on the one hand and on the other, interspersed with particles of real truth. And with regards to the history of Europe, unbiased historians themselves said before them that the history of Europe begins in the 18th century, and before that there was, to put it mildly, true-fiction, take an interest at least that. that the "ancient authors" were not ashamed to insert appropriate dialogues and other things to reveal the "narrowing". Yes, the monument stands for a she-wolf, not a whore, as considering the she-wolf as not a devoted "spouse", in fact, on the contrary, strong families were called whores.
          And now my favorite song, the so-called Mayan calendar, and the whole story of American centers of civilization, T.Heyerdahl when he proved that culture is brought from outside, and the old song continues, at least We hear it most often on Easter Island , then they say it’s unknown who and how ...., and again T. Heyerdahl, if he didn’t show everything, indicated the way.
          1. Beck
            Beck 17 January 2013 21: 08
            +3
            Quote: Kir
            They said everything well, only at the end they all got rid of these cousinous rethinkers, although classical historians are not far from them.


            Real historians can be sincerely mistaken and inadvertently mistaken.
            Homegrown rethinkers deliberately falsify and deliberately lead people to error.
            1. Kir
              Kir 17 January 2013 21: 12
              0
              Although both of these, in the end, are misleading, which is sometimes very fraught with consequences, that there have been more than once in history, but nothing.
              1. Beck
                Beck 17 January 2013 21: 29
                +2
                If a real historian, he admits his mistakes and repents of error. Though in life, even in a different world.

                Domestic reinterpreters cannot be broken. They will look into the eyes and blatantly lie. And science is not proof to them, and God is not a decree.
  • Karah
    Karah 25 May 2013 22: 16
    0
    Quote: Ascetic
    To engage in hand-to-hand combat, a special forces soldier must ...
    machine gun, gun, bayonet-knife, sapper blade, helmet, bowler hat, flask, belt, find a clean, level platform, the second same woodpecker and engage in hand-to-hand combat

    Well said! good But in practice, everything happens ... wink
  • Diter
    Diter 20 December 2013 19: 39
    0
    This story was once told to me by my grandfather, he was a witness. It happened even before the revolution, somewhere at the very beginning of the 20th century. The people are working in the field, walking past some peasant, not young and not at all heroic in physique. Asks if anyone wants to be on the cams? One strong young guy called out, his name was Petruk. They started to fight, Petruk strikes, the peasant dodges. Then, seizing the moment, he took his hands in the "ovary" and stabbed Petruk in the chest. Petruk fell unconscious. The peasant said goodbye and left. When Petruk woke up, he said: "Guys, I'm not a tenant ...". And indeed, he did not live long afterwards.
  • papa-billy
    papa-billy 27 June 2014 12: 06
    0
    The fist tradition in Russia is FUN well done. A warrior needs a wand! A few years ago he took up historical fencing and at one of the fights I got a melee. After I knocked out his weapon, I got the opportunity to assess what an unarmed opponent was worth - nothing. It is foolish to think that a warrior without a weapon cannot do anything. Physical activity, constant fights (training and combat), work in the ranks - this is only a small part of what a soldier goes through. After all, when you are in a landfill or a tough match - there are hooks and biases and hooks, but they beat you not only with a blade, but with everyone in a row. This arrow is enough to learn a month, and the blade will take a lifetime.