How Karamzin distorted Russian history

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How Karamzin distorted Russian history
"Portrait of N. M. Karamzin." Hood. V. Tropinin



Writer and historiographer of Russia


Nikolai Mikhailovich Karamzin (1766–1826) was born into a noble family and served in the Preobrazhensky Regiment. He retired with the rank of lieutenant, preferring the social life and literary career. His first literary experiments date back to his military service. Karamzin was the editor of the Moscow Journal, the Vestnik Evropy magazine and the Aglaya almanac, in which he published, among other things, his works: poems and stories.



After traveling through Europe in 1789-1790. Nikolai Karamzin wrote “Letters of a Russian Traveler,” the publication of which immediately made him a popular writer. Karamzin was the leader of Russian sentimentalism. He wrote a story on historical theme - “Martha the Posadnitsa, or the Conquest of Novagorod” (published in 1803).

By decree of Emperor Alexander I on October 31 (November 12), 1803, Nikolai Karamzin, at his own request, was officially appointed “Russian historiographer,” which gave him the right

“to read the ancient manuscripts preserved both in monasteries and in other libraries, depending on the Holy Synod, concerning Russian antiquities.”

An annual salary of 2 thousand rubles was then added to the rank.

Since 1804, Karamzin stopped all literary work, “took his hair as a historian” and began to create the greatest work of his life - “History of the Russian State.” The first 8 volumes of “History”, with a huge circulation for that time (3 thousand copies), were published in February 1818 and were instantly sold out. In subsequent years, three more volumes of the History were published, and a number of its translations into major European languages ​​appeared.

In 1811, Karamzin wrote “A Note on Ancient and New Russia in its Political and Civil Relations,” which reflected the views of conservatives dissatisfied with the tsar’s liberal reforms. His goal was to prove that there was no need to carry out any special transformations in the country. Coverage of the Russian historical process brought Karamzin closer to the court and the tsar, who settled him near him in Tsarskoe Selo. Karamzin's political views evolved gradually, and by the end of his life, a Westerner and a Freemason, he became a staunch supporter of autocracy. The unfinished 12th volume of “History” was published after the death of the author. The writer brought the story to the period of Troubles.

It is worth noting that at this time Russian secular society, mainly of noble origin, knew better the history of Ancient Rome and Greece, Western Europe than Russia. For many nobles, French was the main language.

“Everyone, even secular women, rushed to read the history of their fatherland, hitherto unknown to them. She was a new discovery for them. Ancient Russia seemed to have been discovered by Karamzin, just as America was discovered by Columbus. They didn’t talk about anything else for a while.”

- Pushkin later recalled.

And the poet and critic Vyazemsky said:

“... He saved Russia from the invasion of oblivion, called it to life, showed us that we have a fatherland.”


N. M. Karamzin at the Monument “1000th Anniversary of Russia” in Veliky Novgorod

Distortion of the true history of Russia


The picture of Russian history drawn by Karamzin has actually become canonical and classical. However, from the very beginning, many critics drew attention to the fact that in his work Karamzin acted more as a writer than a historian - when describing historical facts, he cared about the beauty of the language. This is more literature than true history.

The writer quickly became a supporter of the authorities. Pushkin’s epigram to Karamzin is well known:

In his "History" elegance, simplicity
They prove to us without any bias
The need for autocracy
And the charm of a whip.

But the main thing is that Karamzin wrote the history of Russia in the interests of the House of Romanov, closely connected with the German world and Western Europe as a whole. Accordingly, the freemason Karamzin wrote a story that became part of the Western historical myth, created for the dominance of “historical peoples” - Germans, English, French, Italians, Greeks, etc. Russians and Slavs in general in this myth were “young peoples” , on the periphery of the cultural and historical life of European civilization.

Karamzin canonized the myth of the calling of the Norman-Germans, which was introduced into scientific circulation by the German scientists Schlözer, Miller and Bayer. Allegedly, Russian statehood was founded by the Vikings (The Rus of the North and the Lies of Norman Theory), gave the “unreasonable and wild” Slavs a ruling dynasty and the foundations of the state. This is how the Norman theory about the civilizing mission of the Scandinavian-Germans in Russia was founded. Karamzin, with his authority, gave this hypothesis the character of an immutable truth. The West happily accepted this theory. Westerners rightly pointed out: look, the most famous Russian historiographer - and he admitted that the state of the Eastern Slavs was founded by the Germans and Swedes.

Karamzin identifies the Mongols and Tatars of medieval sources. This identification dates back to the XNUMXth century, to the book of the papal legate Plano Carpini, “History of the Mongals, called Tatars.” The papal intelligence officer-diplomat made a mission to the Great Khan. Then in Rome they created the “myth of the Tatar-Mongols” (“The myth of “Mongols from Mongolia in Rus'” is the most grandiose and monstrous provocation of the Vatican against Russia). But the empty term “Mongol-Tatars” was introduced into scientific circulation only in the 1817th century. It was voiced in 1845 by the German historian H. Kruse, whose Atlas of the History of European Nations was published in Russian only in XNUMX.

Karamzin uses the name not Mongols, but Mughals, after the name of the ruler of India in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. Muslim dynasty. It is still unknown: either the dynasty identified itself with the descendants of Genghis Khan, or they were already ranked among the Mongols by the Europeans who discovered India.

But the most important thing is that since the time of Karamzin, any attempts to understand this terminology and reveal who is hiding in history under the name of the “Mongols” of Carpini, the “Mughals” of later European historians and the “Tatars” of the “filthy” ancient Russian chronicles and contemporary European chronicles, are here they denigrate them in every possible way. “Mongols from Mongolia”, despite all the facts that this simply cannot be (The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke), and period. The presentation of Karamzin and his followers became dogma.

Denigration of Ivan the Terrible


Karamzin’s description of the reign of Ivan IV Vasilyevich is divided into two parts. Until about 1560, he was a wise and kind, most Christian sovereign. In 1560-1564. Grozny allegedly begins to suffer from mental damage, which was expressed in outbursts of rage and unjustified executions. From the end of 1564, the king completely lost his mind and became a “crazy, bloody tyrant” (How Grozny was turned into "the most terrible Russian tyrant").

The Russian writer turned Ivan IV into a fallen sinner, the main anti-hero of Russian history. As sources, Karamzin used the slander of the fugitive emigrant prince and the first Russian dissident Andrei Kurbsky (“The Story of the Great Prince of Moscow Affairs”). The work was written in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during the war against Russia and was an instrument of the Western information war against the Orthodox Tsar. The prince himself hated Ivan the Terrible and wrote for the Polish gentry. Kurbsky, for Karamzin and other Russian Westerners, was a colorful figure: a fugitive from the “tyrant”, a fighter for “freedom”, an exposer of the “immoral despot”, etc.

Another "truthful" source for Karamzin was the "testimony" of foreigners. The History of the Russian State by Nikolai Karamzin contains numerous references to the works of P. Oderborn, A. Gvagnini, T. Bredenbach, I. Taube, E. Kruse, J. Fletcher, P. Petrey, M. Stryjkovsky, Daniel Prinz, I. Kobenzl , R. Heydenstein, A. Possevino and other foreigners. Karamzin also took as sources later Western compilations based on the retelling of various rumors, myths and anecdotes. The information in them was very far from objective: from dirty gossip and rumors to deliberate information aggression against Russians, Russia and Ivan the Terrible. Foreign authors were opposed to the "Russian tyrant". The texts were written in countries with which the Russian kingdom fought or was in a state of cultural and religious confrontation.

After Karamzin, this myth became one of the fundamental ones in Russian history. It was picked up by liberal and pro-Western historians, writers and publicists. Criticism and protests were ignored and hushed up. As a result, through collective efforts, such a collective opinion was created that when the epoch-making monument “Millennium of Rus'” was created in Novgorod in 1862, the figure of the greatest Russian Tsar did not appear on it! And there is a figure of Karamzin, who slandered the great sovereign!

Russian historical myth


History is one of the main methods of management. And long-term. An excellent example is Ukraine and the “Ukrainian people”. At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, they came up with “Ukrainians,” “the history of Ukraine,” cutting out the history of Southern and Southwestern Rus' from all-Russian history. By isolating the southern part of the Russian super-ethnos into a separate ethnic group of “Ukrainians”. In the USSR, Ukrainian statehood was created - the Ukrainian SSR, the “history of Ukraine”, and the “Ukrainian people” (Russians and Ukrainians are one people; "Ukrainians" are the same Russians). Since 1991, new generations of “Ukrainians” have been brainwashed on the theme of “heroes - Mazeppians, Petliurites, Bandera, etc.

Only a century has passed (for history this is a moment), and we received a fratricidal massacre in the Russian Ukraine, Great Russians against Little Russians. The huge Russian region - the former Kiev, Galician, Seversk Rus, Little Russia and Novorossiya - became a battlefield.

Therefore, one cannot allow one’s history to be written in the interests of the West, internal Vlasovites or Banderaites. Everything will end very badly.

The historical, chronological priority of management is second in importance, after the understanding of good and evil (methodology). Why does Russia live from crisis to crisis, from disaster to disaster, from turmoil to turmoil? The answer is that we have been lied to about our history. They lied about the history of mankind. True knowledge about the past and present is hidden from people. And even more so about methods of governing countries and peoples.

Some are told the version of history from the standpoint of Christianity (biblical history), others - from the standpoint of Islam, others - the “classical” version, in the interests of “historical peoples”, etc. Divide and conquer.

“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past."

- wrote George Orwell in the dystopia “1984”.

That's why Russians are constantly having their history cut short. Thus, in the life of one generation, the History of the Second World War was rewritten. No one in the world, except specialists, knows about our Great Victory. For the European or American average person, the USA and England won the war. Stalin and Hitler are bloody dictators, the Germans and Russians are occupiers.

Christian Rus'! Cyril and Methodius created writing for the “wild Russians who prayed to tree stumps.” Byzantium gave Rus' culture. However, writing existed in Rus' even before the Greek missionaries. It had its own high spiritual and material culture, while in Western Europe there were “dark ages”, and there were no Germans, no French, no English, no Italians. And Rus' was a “country of cities.” There were already Russians, they had writing, and they had many cities.

The millennia-long history of pre-Christian Rus' was “cut off” in the interests of our enemies. Therefore, study the works of those giants and titans who went against the “general line of the party” and created the true history of Russia: Lomonosov, Tatishchev, Volansky, Klassen, Chertkov, Shishkov, Lukashevich, Grinevich, Rybakov, Petukhov and many others.

It is clear that there are many controversial issues; one cannot stoop to the level of “Ukrainian historians” who are looking for the roots of “Ukrainians” in space, who record Moses and Jesus as “ancient Ukrainians”. However, one cannot help but see that the Scythians and Wends-Vandals are our direct ancestors. Accordingly, the Russians are one of the oldest peoples on the planet.
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228 comments
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  1. +8
    12 November 2023 04: 35
    What is this opus about? Why reproach Karamzin after so many centuries? And modern historians cannot understand either the Norman theory or the atrocities of Tsar Ivan, and what complaints can there be against a historiographer of the early 19th century? Was the Westerner and Freemason favored by the authorities and became a supporter of autocracy? So, even today we cannot be surprised by such metamorphoses. The article is in the trash!
    1. +16
      12 November 2023 05: 32
      Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
      Was the Westerner and Freemason favored by the authorities and became a supporter of autocracy?

      Isn't that right? Prove it!

      Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
      The article is in the trash!

      And I liked the article.
      And especially recommendations from whom to study history. After all, the question is not an idle one.
      There are a lot of pseudo historians. Find someone normal!

      . created the true history of Russia: Lomonosov, Tatishchev, Volansky, Klassen, Chertkov, Shishkov, Lukashevich, Grinevich, Rybakov, Petukhov

      Thank you. I copied it into my notepad.
      1. -4
        12 November 2023 14: 48
        Quote: Stas157
        Isn't that right? Prove it!

        By the way, Pushkin also rummaged through the archives, he was, so to speak, the historiographer of Nicholas 1. According to the article, go to the archives and show sources where the Mongols are not Mongols and there was no conquest of Russia. Otherwise blah blah blah all the same
        1. 0
          13 November 2023 11: 01
          Quote from Kartograph
          go to the archives

          I’m not the one criticizing the article. Why should I go? Let the critics go. Well, or justify their position!
          1. -1
            13 November 2023 18: 00
            I’m not the one criticizing the article. Why should I go? Let the critics go. Well, or justify their position!

            In fact, honest historians - those who go to the archives - have long ago substantiated their position. And if you not only don’t want to go to the archives, but also don’t want to read historians, use fairy tales, like the article published above. Very patriotic, very illiterate.
      2. -1
        13 November 2023 17: 44
        Isn't that right? Prove it!

        Actually, I wrote about something completely different - “even today we cannot be surprised by such metamorphoses” - you need to read more carefully.
        And especially recommendations from whom to study history. After all, the question is not an idle one

        Study history using literary works of the 18th and 19th centuries? You'll go far. Will you study chemistry or physics using textbooks that are 200-300 years old?
      3. +2
        16 November 2023 20: 05
        Quote: Stas157
        Thank you. I copied it into my notepad.

        Do not hurry. Otherwise, now the local “historians” will swoop in and pour a bucket of slop on both Klassen and Petukhov, and it won’t be any good for Rybakov either.
    2. -10
      12 November 2023 05: 48
      An opus about a fog that will soon clear itself. The Norman theory of the creation of Rus'-Russia “came” under the colonial seizure of the rest of the world by Europe.
      Today we are witnessing the reverse process.
      Soon the Genghisids and Sassanids, the Chinese dynasties (Indian?) will turn out to be the “Yusupovs” who will rule the world, and will write bad and good for Europe for the next 500 years.
      The Spanish monarchy will find its “great” roots in Baghdad and Medina.
      The Germans (and Winsors) are in Kipchpka and Altai.
      Asia will simply take over Europe. Under this advertisement and justification of ownership
      1. AUL
        +1
        12 November 2023 17: 41
        Any historian is a person with his own experience, worldview, and passions. And the official, appointed historian is also bound by a social order. Therefore, each of them brings into his presentation of history a piece of his vision and attitude to events. Or even direct falsification of facts at the request of those in power.
        1. +2
          13 November 2023 07: 27
          Further proof that history, like other humanities, is not a science at all, but a fantasy of the author’s mind, to please the needs of society and the existing government. It’s even worse here than with lawyers, where “two people have three opinions.” lol
          1. +8
            13 November 2023 08: 54
            Well why? Those who study history professionally know very well that the invasion took place, that many Russian cities were burned, some of which were not restored. After this, a period of failure of crafts began, when in Rus' the production of many things was lost or greatly simplified. All this is archaeology.
            Actually, the official version has been fundamentally confirmed, but its criticism...
            1. -4
              13 November 2023 10: 20
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              .. Those who study history professionally know very well that the invasion took place, that many Russian cities were burned, some of which were not restored ..

              The invasion could indeed have taken place, but the question is somewhat different: During the period of this invasion, a huge number of monasteries were built in Rus', which were later called Christian. Even V.V. Putin noticed that in the pictures of this invasion the troops on both sides look exactly the same and it turns out that this invasion is unlikely to have been at the expense of foreign soldiers, most likely it was something like today’s revolutions where foreigners introduce a new religious denomination for as if it were a “legal” robbery of the local population. I think that this view that I have outlined here more accurately reflects the events of that time. Many facts today confirm this version of events.
              1. +6
                13 November 2023 11: 10
                Quote: venaya
                Even V.V. Putin noticed that in the pictures of this invasion the troops on both sides look exactly the same

                Which is not at all surprising - who in those years cared about the historical accuracy of weapons and armor? How was she even supposed to know? They painted it much later than the invasion, for the most part.
                It’s scary to think what historians of the distant future will dream up if they come across Hollywood historical films...
                Quote: venaya
                and it turns out that it is unlikely that this invasion was at the expense of foreign warriors, most likely it was something like today’s revolutions where foreigners introduce a new religious denomination for the seemingly “legal” robbery of the local population

                Well, Christianity came to Rus' at the end of the 10th century, in the 11th it developed calmly, took root (as can be seen, among other things, from changes in funeral rites), and by the middle of the twelfth century Rus' suddenly woke up and killed most of the population in internecine wars?: )))) Are you drawing too broad conclusions from the pictures?
      2. 0
        13 November 2023 21: 42
        And then Ostap suffered wassat The text of your comment is too short and in the opinion of the site administration does not carry useful information
  2. +1
    12 November 2023 04: 35
    The author, unfortunately, himself goes to extremes, criticizing the classics: “We were deceived, our history was lied to” - - Why weren’t Western Europe or the Jews humiliated and slandered?

    Heh.... heh.... but because only fools are deceived.
    This is self-admission of inferiority a society that is constantly being deceived by “bad people” from the times of the “non-existent” Rurik until the Minsk agreements of 2015.

    “The History of Ukraine,” which begins with the capture of Kyiv by the Red Army in December 1919, has already become a tired idiotic cliche.

    The existence of Ukrainians was recognized by A.S. Pushkin, and the formation of the UPR and BPR should not raise doubts among people familiar with the history of the 20th century. But again and again they lie and lie....

    Only a hundred years have passed, and already on both sides of the LBL they are each coming up with their own “story”! Old man Karamzin is resting. Yes, he’s just an angel compared to today’s people.
    1. +15
      12 November 2023 05: 27
      Quote: ivan2022
      .. Existence Ukrainians A.S. Pushkin also recognized...

      And what about “Ukrainians” in the XNUMXth century? Is this a nationality or something? Just recently, while communicating with some American, I learned that it is not Russians who live in Siberia, but specifically certain "Siberians" - this is the first. And second: even in today's version of Vladimir Dahl's book, he explains the meaning of the words "Ukraine" and "Ukrainian"not at all as a certain state, but simply as a territory near the edge of the Russian state and the specialty of certain people who defend the edge, also after all, of the Russian state. You will clearly explain what you understand by the concept there"Ukrainian“already in your head as a person living in the XNUMXst century, I would be very interested in understanding this.
      And by the way, I basically agree with the author’s position in this article and would add very, very much more...
      1. -10
        12 November 2023 07: 59
        Quote: venaya

        And what about “Ukrainians” in the XNUMXth century? Is this a nationality or something? Just recently, while communicating with some American, I learned that it is not Russians who live in Siberia, but specifically certain "Siberians" - this is the first. And second: even in today's version of Vladimir Dahl's book, he explains the meaning of the words "Ukraine" and "Ukrainian

        So, in 1654, Russia concluded an alliance agreement with only one Bogdan Khmelnitsky? There weren't people behind him who had their own identity?
        [There are many nationalities in Russia, even those whose names you do not know at all.

        It's all about the abnormal extremes to which the author is prone.

        For example, Germany is also a federation, but they honor the dialects of different lands and remember that Germany is a unification of once different states. Not forgetting that there is strength in unity.
        The USA is a union of states.
        And only here they are rushing around like idiots in a madhouse from “We will separate the Ukrainians so as not to feed them,” to complete non-recognition of the existence of a many-million people.
        1. 0
          12 November 2023 09: 07
          Quote: ivan2022
          [There are many nationalities in Russia, even those whose names you do not know at all.

          But I actually don’t know at all about any nationalities in Russia before 1917! In the Russian Empire, no nationalities were recognized and simply did not exist by definition, although there really were religious denominations permitted at that time and people really differed in religious beliefs. But the whole point is that the very concept of “nationality” is not of Russian-speaking origin at all; the Latin term “nat” is fundamentally present there, which closely corresponds to the Russian-language concept of “clan”. And what a stupid concept:
          own self-awareness

          - what does it mean? Maybe it’s just some kind of brain foulness? Self-awareness is, in principle, possible among Siberians and among the Far Easterners and among residents of the northern regions, even among the Krainians of the far north and not only among the southwestern regions and the outskirts of Rus'.
          And more:
          in 1654, Russia concluded an alliance agreement with only one Bogdan Khmelnitsky?

          I don’t understand at all, did this same Bogdan Khmelnitsky have a certain nationality? Please clarify this point and don’t confuse the minds of local forum users here, there aren’t that many Svidomo people here.
          Yet:
          Germany is also a federation, but they honor the dialects of different lands

          - oh my God... How much I have to communicate with the inhabitants of this Germany, they honor dialects but not all of them remember the indigenous languages ​​of this very Germany, for example, when I just hinted that I was from Novgorod, there a certain German immediately told me that he was from Stargorod, in modern German it sounds like Stuttgart (Stuttgart). And how many Germans today remember their native indigenous language???
          Next:
          Germany - the unification of once different states
          And even earlier there was a single land whose inhabitants spoke, in general, the same language, guess for yourself which one, at least perhaps with slightly different dialects. And in general, try to study this issue on your own and especially in much more detail, otherwise I can’t explain all the numerous nuances of the past here due to limitations on the volume of materials presented.
          1. +8
            12 November 2023 15: 09
            But I actually don’t know at all about any nationalities in Russia before 1917! In the Russian Empire, no nationalities were recognized and simply did not exist by definition.

            They are unknown to you for the same reason - your dense ignorance. To be convinced of your ignorance, just go to the library.







            A term such as obscurantism is well suited to characterize your condition.
            1. -5
              12 November 2023 15: 32
              Quote from Frettaskyrandi
              .. the characteristics of your condition are well suited to the term obscurantism.

              Thank you for reminding me of this term, I used it once too. Now I turned on all the optical instruments to detect the term “nationality or at least the word nation - I again failed to detect this foreign term (of Latin origin) in all the documents submitted by you too! Try to find at least some glasses and demonstrate the presence of the term” nationality" at least once and in any document before 1917, thanks in advance.
              But it is inappropriate to compare the terms clan and people, because the inhabitants of today’s Germany can quite reliably be called Russians as a people, but at the same time they are Deutsch and Germans and even Germans and even whatever nationality you like, for their language began to be replaced starting in 1531 thanks to just the introduction of the Protestant religious denomination, initially introduced by Martin Luther, after which they suddenly changed their nationality (this concept also includes the language used) but their gender did not change at all!
              In this regard, we ask you not to confuse such concepts as people and nationality, otherwise there is a lot of confusion here
              1. +3
                12 November 2023 20: 01
                Now I turned on all the optical instruments to detect the term “nationality or at least the word nation - I again failed to detect this foreign term (of Latin origin) in all the documents submitted by you too!

                Throw all your equipment in the trash. Go to the library.

                1. -5
                  12 November 2023 21: 10
                  Quote from Frettaskyrandi
                  Go to the library.

                  Thank you both for the advice and for searching for a foreign, non-Russian term in the library. I remind you that the Imperial Russian Academy of Sciences before M. Lomonosov did not have any documents in Russian at all. For the first time, only Lomonosov experimentally tried to write in his native language, but in those days few people at the academy had knowledge of the Russian language. So the penetration of foreign Latin terms into Russian speech is quite possible, and indeed quite a few such cases can be found. Another thing is in official correspondence and office. In Russian-language documents, the use of many foreign terms was strictly not allowed under the Tsar. For example, today we can hear and read in texts as if in Russian a lot of foreign terminology; this disease exists in all languages. But what is the point of using the little understood foreign term “nation” at that time in the much more developed Russian language there is a radical and understandable term for everyone? PEOPLE ! So thank you for the exception and how correctly they say that exceptions only prove the rule.
                  1. 0
                    14 November 2023 08: 51
                    The word "people" is too general. It can mean both ethnicity and citizenship or nationality, and the term “nationality,” a synonym for the term “ethnicity,” makes it clear that we are talking about a person’s ethnicity. And that he is not Russian - there are many borrowed words in the Russian language, from “electron” to “motor transport” or “adzhika” - but before, in the time of Peter, all these words - yes, did not exist. There were electrons and nationalities, but there were no terms for them in the Russian language.
            2. +2
              15 November 2023 17: 36
              A with the letter "U", where is the page? We want to see it!! Why does the publication of the list of “peoples” stop at “T”?
          2. 0
            13 November 2023 21: 48
            In Slavic languages, the word “Kray” is not at all what it means in Russian.
          3. +1
            14 November 2023 08: 40
            About
            In the Russian Empire, no nationalities were recognized and simply did not exist by definition.
            - you are deeply mistaken. There was no TERM “nationality”, but the nationalities themselves, as we understand them today - other peoples, ethnic groups - still existed, and they were called in the days of the Republic of Ingushetia - nationalities.
            Here is a screenshot from the results of the 1897 census of the Russian Empire:


            And just don’t tell tales here that all the peoples listed in the Census are “confessions” - they will laugh.
            1. 0
              14 November 2023 09: 24
              Quote: Alt22
              ...

              Thank you for your support in connection with the absence of the very concept of “nationality” in the Russian language; I can hardly remember this due to the fact that few people had a chance to read the periodicals of those years, and even in the original, as I happened to do. But I think it’s not worth equating the concepts of “people” and “nationality” because the term “people” comes from the Russian-language term “clan”, implying the origin of the people, and the concept of “nationality” also includes the use of some other language , but this language can be easily and simply changed by introducing into the compulsory educational process the study of a new, synthetically created language, which is what happened with Ukrainian, Belarusian and even a little further with English and French. But how could a single tribe of Britons be forced to learn French in Britain and, in Great Britain, also a non-native English language? And it turns out that a single tribe was suddenly, by definition, divided into two different nations! Try to study this issue in more detail - your hair will stand on end. So I believe that there is no way to equate the concepts of “people” and the foreign concept of “nationality”
              1. +1
                15 November 2023 16: 22
                the Briton tribe is forced to learn French in Britain and in Great Britain also not their native English.

                Venya, you are ignorant in literally everything. By the time the French and English languages ​​appeared, no tribe of Britons existed.
        2. +1
          12 November 2023 10: 13
          That's right - dialects. German language. And not some separate Prussian or Bavarian language. And they all call themselves Germans, although there’s a lot of people mixed in there.
          1. +15
            12 November 2023 10: 35
            Have you ever heard of the Saxon dialect? Other “Germans” don’t understand him at all! And residents of different territories of Germany call themselves after this territory - Saxons, Bavarians, Mecklenburgers, etc. As Rasul Gamzatov said: “in Dagestan I am an Avar, in Russia I am a Dagestan, and abroad I am Russian.”
            1. +3
              12 November 2023 13: 08
              That's it! They can call themselves whatever they want inside themselves, but outside they are all Germans. By the way, they came together from different nationalities, but consider themselves the German nation. And Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians are generally one nation, but it turns out there is a separate nationality “Ukrainian”.
              1. 0
                14 November 2023 08: 55
                Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians are generally one nation
                - not one nation (google what this word means) and not one nationality, but THREE DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES.
                And as for your indignation about the existence of the Ukrainian nationality - please forward your complaints to the Ministry of Education of the Russian Federation, which even teaches in school that Ukrainians are a nationality and that they exist:
                1. 0
                  14 November 2023 13: 00
                  Quote: Alt22
                  Quote: Alt22
                  Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians are generally one nation
                  - not one nation (google what this word means) and not one nationality, but THREE DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES.
                  And as for your indignation about the existence of the Ukrainian nationality - please forward your complaints to the Ministry of Education of the Russian Federation, which even teaches in school that Ukrainians are a nationality and that they exist:

                  Again, complete confusion associated with the substitution of the indigenous Russian-speaking concept of “people” with a purely Russian-speaking root."ROD"to some clearly left-wing and recently introduced non-Russian-speaking muddy concept of "nationality". Don't you understand that it is indecent to introduce foreign terms in your text, for example with the foreign root "nat", turning our language from a natural syntactic one into an alien one for the Russian language " analytical" when there is still a natural syntactic term that is much more understandable by definition and native to the Russian language PEOPLE.
                  And as for the ministries, I don’t have enough strength to expel the Russophobes who have settled there, for example, me personally. Maybe someone and when will finally be able to do this.
        3. -3
          12 November 2023 10: 29
          The proposed categorical judgments are not supported by appropriate logic.
          In addition to critical thinking, the author, unlike yours, also has constructive thinking. Where did you find “self-recognition of inferiority” among the Russian people? K.N. Leontyev about our peasant roots: “nationally, in the sense of the general type... they were almost always impeccable.” The most evolutionarily wealthy type in “society” and inferiority..?
          “He recognized the existence of Ukrainians...” - they also recognize the existence of Siberians, still “oh”-repentant, “what”-repentant - who have no claims to statehood, so what?
          “The USA is a union of states.” -?
          The Slavs have been gnawing for many centuries, in Europe they are easily digested, and for some reason they are not yet extremely aggressive towards the surviving core of the Slavs.
          What is the essence of the greatness of the root “edge” in the word “Ukraine”? In this “essence” there are no signs of “its own self-awareness.”
          The words “Ukraine” and “marginal” are the same root (“margo” (Latin) – edge). The marginalization of the outskirts of our people is a sign of the ongoing successful assimilation of us by Europeans, this is an accurate diagnosis. Alas, marginalization has spread throughout Russia (capitalism, tolerance, hedonism, decadence,..).
        4. +3
          12 November 2023 14: 56
          Quote: ivan2022
          So, in 1654, Russia concluded an alliance agreement with only one Bogdan Khmelnitsky? There weren't people behind him who had their own identity?

          There were people. But these were representatives of the nobility, not ordinary peasants. Who would have allowed them to vote. You know, I came across an article here like this: “Pereyaslav Rada: why the union of the Muscovite kingdom and the Zaporozhye Sich was beneficial to both sides.”
          There is this line:
          "In the first half of the XNUMXth century, an extremely difficult situation developed in the Ukrainian lands. These territories were part of Russia, Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Poland"
          I have a question: How can territories that are part of other states be Ukrainian? Otherwise, in the current realities, you can also write
        5. +3
          13 November 2023 01: 19
          "He is a lot like some kind of idol priest, who, having smoked himself with henbane and dope and quickly spinning on one leg, twisting his head, gives dubious, dark, incomprehensible and completely wild answers" - Mikhailo Lomonosov about the “woe of historians”. Well, those who here in the comments are trying to “show off” their knowledge of history. There were no Ukrainians behind Khmelnitsky. And there was no state. And there is no need to distort and manipulate the words - “people who had their own self-awareness." Self-awareness of what? At least think sometimes before expressing your thoughts. Or better yet, read historical documents with your own hands.
          Ukraine: myth or reality?
          https://wakeupnow.info/ru/one-menu-facts-opinion/3249-ukraina-mif-ili-realnost-chast-1
        6. +6
          13 November 2023 08: 38
          Quote: ivan2022
          So, in 1654, Russia concluded an alliance agreement with only one Bogdan Khmelnitsky? There weren't people behind him who had their own identity?
          [There are many nationalities in Russia, even those whose names you do not know at all.

          It's all about the abnormal extremes to which the author is prone.

          For example, Germany is also a federation, but they honor the dialects of different lands and remember that Germany is a unification of once different states. Not forgetting that there is strength in unity.
          The USA is a union of states.
          And only here they are rushing around like idiots in a madhouse from “We will separate the Ukrainians so as not to feed them,” to complete non-recognition of the existence of a many-million people.


          “Receive Hetman Bohdan Khmelnitsky and the entire Zaporozhye Army with cities and lands.”

          In fact, there were then no Ukrainians and no Ukraine, but there were Zaporozhye Cossacks and the Zaporozhye Army, who hated Kyiv and Poland with fierce hatred. They would never call themselves Ukrainians.
        7. +2
          13 November 2023 21: 59
          Bohdan Khmelnytsky was a Rusyn. Oles Buzina spoke about this.
      2. +4
        12 November 2023 13: 16
        And what about “Ukrainians” in the XNUMXth century - is this a nationality or something... And second: even in today’s version of Vladimir Dahl’s book, he explains the meaning of the words “Ukraine” and “Ukrainian” not at all as a certain state, but simply as a territory the edges of the Russian state and the specialty of certain people who defend the edges are also, after all, the Russian state. You really explain what you understand by the concept of “Ukrainian” already in your head as a person living in the XNUMXst century, I would be very interested in understanding this.

        That's it!
        There was recently an article about the Stroganov merchants whose possessions were in the east of the Moscow state. So Tsar Ivan the Terrible gave them a charter that they could form new cities and villages EAST of the Ural Mountains and call them UKRAINE!
        That is, Ukraine was then simply called the outskirts of Russia.
      3. +2
        12 November 2023 15: 52
        even in today’s version of Vladimir Dahl’s book, he explains

        Vladimir Ivanovich Dal died two centuries ago, in the 19th century, in 1872, and could not write any “today’s versions” of his book.
        Dahl compiled a dictionary of the spoken Great Russian language,

        at that time, it was actively being replaced in use by the broad masses of the population by the literary language created by Lomonosov and developed by Pushkin and other writers and scientists, which we now use. Lomonosov himself and his followers called the literary language he created on the basis of Old Church Slavonic “Russian”.

        1. -5
          13 November 2023 16: 54
          Why don't you tell me why? Why “Russian” and not “Great Russian”?
          There is a German, the language is German. there is an Englishman, the language is English, a Frenchman is French... etc.
          And only in Russia is it Russian, the language is Russian. But this turns out to be nonsense, even from a grammatical point of view. If the language is Russian (and it should be written with one “S”, but the “grammar” is like this), then what should the native speaker of this language be called? Rus - and nothing else. For hundreds of years now, literally everything has been replaced: history, language, culture. Maybe it’s enough to stop focusing on “Western and Western” fakes?
      4. +1
        13 November 2023 18: 04
        It’s not Russians who live, but some “Siberians”

        With such a policy towards the outskirts, this will soon be true.
    2. +2
      12 November 2023 14: 28
      Quote: ivan2022
      The existence of Ukrainians was recognized by A.S. Pushkin,

      Take it higher, Herodotus himself recognized the existence of Ukrainians. laughing
      But can you still provide a quote from Pushkin that talks about Ukrainians?
      1. +4
        12 November 2023 17: 25
        Our readers, of course, remember the impression made on them by the appearance of “Evenings on the Farm”: everyone was delighted with this lively description tribe singing and dancing, these fresh pictures of Little Russian nature, this gaiety, simple-minded and at the same time crafty.

        Review by Pushkin.
        1. +4
          12 November 2023 19: 16
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Our readers, of course, remember the impression made on them by the appearance of “Evenings on the Farm”: everyone was delighted with this lively description tribe singing and dancing, these fresh pictures of Little Russian nature, this gaiety, simple-minded and at the same time crafty.

          Review by Pushkin.

          And where is the word Ukraine or Ukrainians?
          1. -1
            12 November 2023 21: 53
            Well then ...
            But the old hetman remained
            The obedient subjects of Peter.
            Keeping the severity of the custom,
            He calmly knew Ukraine,
            Molve seemed not to heed
            And he feasted indifferently.

            Ukraine was silently worried.
            It has long been sparked in her.
            Bloody antiquity friends
            The people's hope for war...

            And of course...
            Quiet Ukrainian night.
            Transparent sky. Stars shine.
            Overcome your nap
            Doesn't want air. Tremble a little
            Silver poplar leaves....

            Pushkin, by the way, distinguished between Ukraine and Russia
            Everywhere she became famous
            She is a modest and reasonable girl.
            But enviable grooms
            Sends her Ukraine and Russia:
            But from the crown, as from the shackles,
            Runs shy Maria.

            I don’t know, however, what is the meaning of the dispute about the peculiarities of the terminology of the literary Russian language that was emerging then, two hundred years ago, which later began to be called Russian...
      2. 0
        14 November 2023 09: 00
        “Forgive me, Ukrainian sage, governor of Phoebus and Priapus! Your straw hat is calmer than any other crown; Your Rome is a village; you are my dad, bless me singer!
        In general, in the time of Pushkin, Ukrainians were called Little Russians, but already in 1905 they increasingly began to be called Ukrainians - the works of ethnographers with this term were published.
    3. +2
      16 November 2023 20: 41
      Quote: ivan2022
      The existence of Ukrainians was recognized by A.S. Pushkin,

      Did he recognize them, the Ukrainians, as a separate nationality from the Russians, or as residents of the outskirts? You'll figure it out.
  3. +8
    12 November 2023 04: 39
    Great Russia, which is proud of its thousand-year history, does not know its history, and all through the efforts of foreigners, these are the things. Maybe in the basements of the Vatican, what is there about the real history of Rus'?
  4. +13
    12 November 2023 05: 22
    . during the creation of the landmark monument “Millennium of Rus'” in Novgorod in 1862 the figure of the greatest Russian Tsar did not appear on it! And there is a figure of Karamzin, who slandered the great sovereign!

    Ivan the Terrible is truly the greatest Tsar. After all, under him, Russia doubled in size, and the population grew by 30%.

    And who is Karamzin? The historian who slandered the greatest king!
    1. +2
      12 November 2023 05: 38
      Quote: Stas157
      And who is Karamzin? Historian..

      I suspect that, first of all, he is just a swindler who slandered Russia - Rus' on the instructions and copy of the French Masonic lodge of which he suddenly found himself a member due to his miserable position in France, where he once went after selling off the legacy of his own father Karamurza.
    2. +2
      12 November 2023 05: 51
      Karamzin, a Russian nobleman, lieutenant of the Life Guards Preobrazhensky Regiment, was officially appointed by decree of Emperor Alexander I as a historiographer for the composition of Russian history. Decembrist Bestuzhev-Ryumin: “A high moral feeling still makes this book the most convenient for cultivating love for Russia and goodness.” A.S. Pushkin wrote: “Everyone, even secular women, rushed to read the history of their fatherland, hitherto unknown to them. She was a new discovery for them. Ancient Russia seemed to be found by Karamzin, like America by Columbus. They didn’t talk about anything else for a while.” Alexander 1, Bestuzhev, Pushkin.
      But who are they according to local patriots? And the Simbirsk Masonic Lodge of the “Golden Crown” with Turgenev and Goncharov is also garbage compared to their native lodge “United Russia”
      1. +3
        12 November 2023 07: 29
        Quote: Deck
        Pushkin wrote: “Everyone, even secular women, rushed to read...

        And what? Did Pushkin extol Karamzin? No.

        Have you read the article? If you read it, you should have also read Pushkin’s completely unflattering assessment of Karamzin’s works:

        In his "History" elegance, simplicity
        They prove to us without any bias
        The need for autocracy
        And the charm of a whip.
        1. +2
          12 November 2023 08: 33
          In his "History" elegance, simplicity
          They prove to us without any bias
          The need for autocracy
          And the charm of a whip.


          So, what you don’t like is very relevant in today’s times, firmly. There are a lot of fans of Ivan IV and Stalin here. The freethinker Pushkin (fifth column and foreign agent) could not have written otherwise, the phrases do not contradict each other... The fact is that Karamzin will be read for many more generations and the author of the opportunistic article will be forgotten the day after the funding ceases.
          1. +1
            12 November 2023 10: 33
            Quote: Deck
            So, what you don’t like is very relevant in today’s times, firmly.

            I don’t like “The beauty of the whip and the necessity of autocracy” even though it is relevant.

            Quote: Deck
            the author of the opportunistic article will be forgotten the next day after funding ends.

            Come on! And who do you think is financing the quilted jacket (in a good sense) Samsonov??

            And I’m sure that the author does not pretend to go down in history by writing this article. The goal is different - debunking myths. In my opinion it worked.
            1. 0
              13 November 2023 18: 18
              And who do you think is financing the quilted jacket (in a good sense) Samsonov??

              VO readers fund it. Indirectly, of course, through advertisers - but they finance it. And the more provocative and ignorant the article, the more it fools people, the more money the author gets. Well, the power to lick is also not superfluous, now jingoism is in fashion. Maybe some kind of “pseudo-patriotism” is coming from the authorities.
              And I’m sure that the author does not pretend to go down in history by writing this article. The goal is different - debunking myths. In my opinion it worked.

              It turned out to play on the complexes of poorly educated readers and once again raise a long-rotten myth. “Oh, we are poor, unfortunate, we don’t know our history, we are poor, unfortunate, German historians with the Vatican and the evil Karamzin are fooling us, we actually dug up the Black Sea and gave birth to the Sumerians (oh yes, it’s not us, but the Ukrainians, but the message the same). Yes, that's it. If we are a great country, should we be ashamed of our great history? We cannot read serious books on history and archeology, work with sources, we are bored, but believing crooks and cheaters from history is just right. Karamzin is a monument in itself; fighting against monuments is the lot of ballistic soldiers.
        2. +1
          12 November 2023 22: 46
          “The history of the Russian State is not only the work of a great writer, but also the feat of an honest man”

          Pushkin A.S. On public education // Collected Works. In 10 volumes. - M.: Fiction, 1976. - T. 7. History of Pugachev. Historical articles and materials. Memoirs and diaries. Note Yu. G. Oksman and T. G. Tsyavlovskaya. - P. 311. - 500 copies.
          Alexander Pushkin
          BORIS GODUNOV

          PRECIOUS MEMORY OF NIKOLAI MIKHAILOVICH KARAMZIN FOR RUSSIANS
          dedicates this work, inspired by his genius, with reverence and gratitude
          Alexander Pushkin

          https://ilibrary.ru/text/465/p.1/index.html
      2. +11
        12 November 2023 07: 57
        In our country, I remember that half the country was peeing with boiling water from Rezun-Suvorov, some even now cannot pray to him
      3. +1
        13 November 2023 09: 11
        Actually, he is a Tatar who accepted the Christian faith.
    3. +2
      12 November 2023 08: 34
      Especially in Grozny, the special Livonian operation was a success, and the consequences for Moscow will be worse than before.
  5. +14
    12 November 2023 05: 41
    If we talk about Ivan the Terrible, then he must be considered from a state point of view, but cannot be confused with his inner world. Ivan the Terrible was a man of his time. A cruel and merciless time. A time when the technology of instruments of torture was ahead of other technologies. And this personality cannot be considered outside of time. A great contribution to the statehood of our country. And personal qualities were dictated by time itself.
    1. +1
      13 November 2023 18: 30
      If we talk about Ivan the Terrible, then

      If we talk about Ivan the Terrible, then we need to understand that the Troubles are a natural result of his activities.
  6. -5
    12 November 2023 05: 51
    It’s easy, two hundred years later, to throw mud at an author and patriot of Russia, which Karamzin certainly was. But his manuscripts, unlike yours, do not burn, and you will fade into oblivion.
    1. +9
      12 November 2023 06: 05
      Yours will not burn, and you will go into oblivion.


      The rewriting of history is in full swing. The business of Ogonyok magazine is thriving.
      1. +5
        12 November 2023 15: 01
        Quote: Deck
        The rewriting of history is in full swing

        By the way, how many times have textbooks been rewritten in modern Russia? The last time the pages about repressed peoples were rewritten the other day. Kadyrov didn’t like it.
        Nevertheless, read the book "The Golden Cloud Spent the Night" if it is not already prohibited
    2. +5
      12 November 2023 06: 13
      Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
      It’s easy, two hundred years later, to throw mud at the author and patriot of Russia, which Karamzin certainly was...

      And indeed, for some reason, his manuscripts do not burn, unlike the manuscripts of many, many other much more honest authors. Apparently, work for the narrow interests of those in power is not only always financially encouraged, but also any other thought and information is brutally suppressed and, naturally, in this case, simply physically destroyed by the method of burning unwanted manuscripts, and here there is no need to go far for examples, although There would be just one example with a truly outstanding academician, in contrast to the overwhelming number of other members of academies, namely Mikhailo Lomonosov. And there are simply countless other less famous authors whose manuscripts were mercilessly destroyed! So the “Inquisition” in Rus' worked no less than in other parts of the globe, no less and sometimes much more, because the past of Rus' is much more ancient than very, very many would like it to be. We can only hope that gradually the truth will come out and we will learn very, very much that is still unknown to the general public.
      1. +4
        12 November 2023 06: 31
        What exactly is the contradiction between Lomonosov and Karamzin?
        1. +1
          12 November 2023 07: 27
          Quote: Deck
          What exactly is the contradiction between Lomonosov and Karamzin?

          Well, what are you writing about here??? Well, what differences could there be between Lomonosov and Karamzin if Karamzin was immediately published in full, but the real and original manuscripts of Lomonosov himself are still not known! Immediately after Lomonosov’s death, his entire legacy was arrested and taken away, initially in an unknown direction, and only after quite a considerable time appeared in the interpretation of academicians (Schlöser, Bayer, etc.) who were allowed to study his manuscripts in a highly distorted form. So there is really nothing left to us from the legacy of the past of Rus' from Ak. Lomonosov almost didn’t get it! So subsequently, in principle, there cannot be any contradictions between Karamzin and what has come down to us from Lomonosov’s legacy. You can compare manuscripts and not the lengthy processing of these same manuscripts. So here I believe that looking for some contradictions between them is simply pointless by definition.
          1. 0
            12 November 2023 08: 39
            I haven’t read either Lomonosov or Karamzin, but I condemn him. Familiar.
            1. -2
              12 November 2023 09: 25
              Quote: Deck
              I haven’t read either Lomonosov or Karamzin, but I condemn him. Familiar.

              I had to read about Karamzin, but how did you manage to read the drafts of the very best academician Mikhailo Lomonosov? As far as I know, no one living today has ever succeeded in this... Share the secret of your amazing knowledge in this area, I think that this would be very, very interesting to many professional historians. And the fact that they are now reading under the nickname Lomonosov, the authorship belongs to completely different people, but not to Lomonosov himself, whose legacy is seriously distorted and the fate of the legacy of other similar authors is even much sadder....
              1. +13
                12 November 2023 09: 53
                And the fact that they are now reading under the nickname Lomonosov, the authorship belongs to completely different people, but not to Lomonosov himself, whose legacy is seriously distorted and the fate of the legacy of other similar authors is even much sadder....

                Dear Sir, you are talking utter nonsense, designed for the same dense ignoramuses as yourself.
                Your babble can be refuted very simply - to do this, just go to the Scientific Library of Moscow State University, which stores intravital (published during Lomonosov’s lifetime based on his manuscripts) books, including the first Russian history textbook in Russia, “A Brief Russian Chronicler with Genealogy,” which Lomonosov wrote for the heir to the throne, the future emperor, Pavel Petrovich.





                And this is for you to study. 128 pages. So that nonsense is not flogged.
                1. +5
                  12 November 2023 10: 06
                  Quote from Frettaskyrandi
                  Dear Sir, you are talking utter nonsense, designed for the same dense ignoramuses as yourself.
                  Your babble can be refuted very simply - to do this, just go to the Scientific Library of Moscow State University, which stores lifetime books (published during Lomonosov’s lifetime based on his manuscripts), including the first Russian history textbook in Russia, “A Brief Russian Chronicler with a Genealogy” ", which Lomonosov wrote for the heir to the throne, the future emperor, Pavel Petrovich.

                  This is a disgusting counterfeit of an antique. In Lomonosov's time there was no printing yet. Everyone knows that Lomonosov invented the periodic table, and Mendeleev himself stole his invention from him.
                  1. +6
                    12 November 2023 17: 51
                    Quote: Kaiten
                    This is a disgusting counterfeit of an antique. In Lomonosov's time there was no printing yet.

                    Really?
                    https://www.ozon.ru/product/polnoe-sobranie-sochineniy-mihaila-vasilevicha-lomonosova-izdanie-1803-goda-chast-pervaya-148918952/#section-description--offset-140--offset-80
                    This book is a reprint of the original edition (publishing house "Depending on the Imperial Academy of Sciences", 1803), created on the basis of a high-resolution electronic copy, which was cleaned and processed by hand, preserving the structure and spelling of the original edition. Rare, forgotten and little-known books published from the time of Peter the Great to the present day are again available in the form of printed books.

                    The complete collection of works of Mikhail Vasilyevich Lomonosov, with an introduction to the life of the author and with the addition of many of his works that have not yet been published anywhere. Published by the Imperial Academy of Sciences in 1803.
                    1. -3
                      12 November 2023 19: 19
                      Quote from Kartograph
                      This book is a reprint of the original edition (publishing house "Depending on the Imperial Academy of Sciences", 1803 year

                      I remind you that ak. M. Lomonosov died on April 4 [15], 1765year. And here you also confirm that no lifetime publications dedicated to the history of ancient Rus' from M. Lomonosov have reached us, to our great regret, thanks to both the empress and especially the foreign backbone in the Academy of Sciences itself. Thank you for the timely clarification.
                      1. +9
                        12 November 2023 20: 12
                        I remind you that ak. M. Lomonosov died on April 4 [15], 1765. And here you also confirm that no lifetime publications dedicated to the history of ancient Rus' from M. Lomonosov have reached us, to our great regret, thanks to both the empress and especially the foreign backbone in the Academy of Sciences itself. Thank you for the timely clarification.

                        You, my friend, are not able to understand in three words, but are aiming at global issues. 1803 is a book that someone Kartograf suggested you look at at the link he provided.
                        And in my commentary - the original 1760 edition, lifetime. Stored in the RSL.
                  2. +3
                    13 November 2023 08: 36
                    Quote: Kaiten
                    Quote from Frettaskyrandi
                    Dear Sir, you are talking utter nonsense, designed for the same dense ignoramuses as yourself.
                    Your babble can be refuted very simply - to do this, just go to the Scientific Library of Moscow State University, which stores lifetime books (published during Lomonosov’s lifetime based on his manuscripts), including the first Russian history textbook in Russia, “A Brief Russian Chronicler with a Genealogy” ", which Lomonosov wrote for the heir to the throne, the future emperor, Pavel Petrovich.

                    This is a disgusting counterfeit of an antique. In Lomonosov's time there was no printing yet. Everyone knows that Lomonosov invented the periodic table, and Mendeleev himself stole his invention from him.

                    Book printing was already under Peter the Great. And Lomonosov’s first printed book was Grammar, 1. Next was a translation from a German physics textbook. Etc. These books are in libraries
                  3. +4
                    13 November 2023 09: 17
                    Lead type printing appeared in Russia under Peter the Great. Types were ordered from Holland.
                2. +6
                  12 November 2023 16: 26
                  In the early 80s of the last century, the PSS of M.V. Lomonosov was published, distributed through Akademkniga, issued a catalog, was a bookstore in our county town. A good edition with notes to all works
              2. +4
                12 November 2023 12: 33
                Therefore, study the works of those giants and titans who went against the “general party line” and created the true history of Russia: Lomonosov

                A. Samsonov

                How did you manage to read the drafts of the very best academician Mikhailo Lomonosov? As far as I know, no one living today has ever succeeded in doing this.

                someone venaya (Vyacheslav)

                You will sort things out with the author of this note. By the way, I did not claim that I had read Lomonosov. )) Somehow you know his opinion
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. 0
            13 November 2023 18: 45
            Immediately after Lomonosov’s death, his entire legacy was arrested and initially taken away to an unknown direction.

            Actually they write that in the known. And it’s unlikely that the science of history has anything to do with it. Lomonosov was Orlov’s protégé, and the archive was taken to Orlov, precisely for the purpose of ensuring that nothing valuable was lost. And at the same time, so that nothing discrediting the royal family would fall into the wrong hands.
    3. +11
      12 November 2023 07: 44
      Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
      It’s easy, two hundred years later, to throw mud at an author and patriot of Russia, which Karamzin certainly was.

      Soloviev and Kiselyov are also the most ardent patriots today. You can have different attitudes towards Karamzin. But the fact that he was treated kindly by the authorities, because:
      Karamzin wrote the history of Russia in the interests of the House of Romanov, closely associated with the German world and Western Europe as a whole.
      no doubt.
      1. +2
        12 November 2023 08: 48
        For 300 years, the history of Russia is connected with the Romanovs, they determined the history, closely connected with the German world and Western Europe as a whole? Russian tsars are foreign agents! Eco wrap the Russophobic slogan.
        1. +4
          12 November 2023 10: 43
          Quote: Deck
          Russian tsars are foreign agents! Eco wrap the Russophobic slogan.

          Who wrote about agents? It was about the angle of view on things and history. That's all. It is obvious that among the Romanovs, who also had German roots, the German view prevailed.
          1. +1
            12 November 2023 12: 53
            It is obvious that among the Romanovs, who also had German roots, the German view prevailed.


            This is obvious only to you, and to some other adherents of the newfangled theory of the Western Conspiracy. Russian emperors and tsars quite successfully defended Russian interests. And attempts to slander and slander them is anti-Russian propaganda.
            1. 0
              12 November 2023 17: 19
              Quote: Deck
              Russian emperors and tsars quite successfully defended Russian interests. And attempts to slander and slander them is anti-Russian propaganda.
              How many worthy ones can you identify among Russian sovereigns?
              Mostly mediocre, if not worse. And foreign policy successes were rarely personally associated with their talents.
              Except perhaps Peter I and maybe Catherine II, and even then they are ambiguous personalities...
              1. +1
                12 November 2023 17: 55
                Quote: Yeti Suvorov
                How many worthy ones can you identify among Russian sovereigns?

                Yes, there were a lot of worthy people, it’s enough to read about them. The very fact that they didn’t miss the state makes them worthy
            2. -2
              13 November 2023 09: 21
              They defended their interests. Look at the names that headed societies in Russia. The most important thing is business. Step by step they colonized the territory of Eurasia, pumping out resources and selling them abroad.
      2. -1
        13 November 2023 18: 52
        Karamzin wrote the history of Russia in the interests of the House of Romanov

        Is it okay that the whole country lived in the interests of the House of Romanov?
        closely associated with the Germanic world and Western Europe in general

        Somehow you can’t tell from Mother Catherine that she lived in the interests of the German world and Western Europe. It would be difficult to find a greater Russian patriot, because she knew all of this Europe firsthand and was not going to do anything to please it..
  7. +3
    12 November 2023 07: 22
    It feels like the article was written for the sake of two paragraphs about Ukraine. There was no Ukraine before the capture of the USSR by the enemies of the USSR, there was no triune Russian ethnic group - and according to the 1897 census there were Great Russians, Little Russians, and White Russians speaking different languages.
    And the enemies of the USSR, who captured the republics of the USSR, falsified how it was beneficial for them in their anti-Sovietism, Russophobia and cowardice - both the pre-revolutionary and the Soviet period, and their anti-Soviet Perestroika, and their anti-Soviet period.
    How can Karamzin care about them?
    1. 0
      12 November 2023 08: 13
      Quote: tatra
      .. there was no triune Russian ethnic group - but according to the 1897 census there were people who spoke different languages Great Russians, Little Russians, White Russians.

      A little for reference: The modern Belarusian language was created in 1929 and it has a real author, and this despite the fact that the small “Belarus” was created on January 2, 1919, and then within just the city of Minsk itself and further to This city has other purely Russian lands. For example, the Lithuanian language was also artificially created even in 1595. There were no separate Little Russian and Belarusian languages ​​in the 80th century, but there were numerous dialects in almost every village. And yet, in today’s Belarus itself, in addition to the official Belarusian language, there are numerous natural native dialects that are very different from the official language. Let us remember that in today's Germany the presence of up to 1861 dialects is officially recognized, the inhabitants of neighboring lands do not understand each other at all, and even on television, programs from neighboring lands are with subtitles so that the Germans understand what is being said in this program in general, although officially they seem to speak the same language. The same situation is in English, only there are thousands of dialects and, for example, in the USA a person who comes from a neighboring state does not understand at all what exactly their neighbors are talking about. The difference between a language and a dialect is fundamental; they often belong to different language groups, and the languages ​​of a neighboring language group are generally understandable to many. The same situation is in the Italian Republic, the Italian language was also created quite recently and is not at all convenient for residents of the Italian provinces who prefer to speak their own language, which often even belong to different language groups, because the Kingdom of Italy was only officially founded in XNUMX from its multilingual constituent parts.
      And regarding the “triune Russian ethnos” - here, too, any definition is lame and is not able to accurately reflect the real state of affairs. I suggest that you yourself here define a definition of this imprecise concept that is more accurate in your opinion by coming up with a more accurate replacement for it, if this is, of course, possible and feasible.
      1. +1
        12 November 2023 09: 39
        Have you decided to argue with the results of the 1897 census?
        1. -3
          12 November 2023 10: 33
          Quote: tatra
          ... to argue with the results of the 1897 census?

          An interesting question even from a theoretical point of view. You can be understood in this way that you actually suspect the presence in that very year of 1897 of the very “Belarusian language”, which, according to my data, appeared only in 1929, and even of the Belarusian nation, which in no way could have appeared before 1919 year since no and in no form of the Belarusian state. the formation of neither the Belarusian ethnic group nor, naturally, a separate Belarusian language simply did not exist before. There are plenty of native local dialects in the territory even in today’s Belarus, but they are weakly connected with the Belarusian state. a language created artificially and relatively recently, in 1929, not earlier. At least pay attention to the year of this very census, 1897 - this year does not remind you of anything. Let me remind you that after the outright failure of the Rothschild family in the “Crimean War”, they actually prepared for the next war in advance and much more thoroughly. Well, think with your own head, how could the inhabitants of the future Belarus know that they are simply Belarusians? Did someone tell them about this, did someone believe them in this? Don’t you remember why this very year 1897 is truly significant? Try to remember it yourself, God will help you...
      2. +3
        12 November 2023 09: 53
        The modern Belarusian language was created in 1929

        In Slavic studies it is generally accepted that the separation of the spoken folk dialects of Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian languages ​​occurred around the 14th century

        The formation of the Belarusian language was influenced by the dialects of the ancient Radimichi, Dregovich, Smolensk and Polotsk Krivichi......

        By the 14th century, the Old Belarusian literary and written language had formed. In this form, it received the status of the official written language of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and retained its state status until 1696.

        A huge corpus of texts was written in the Old Belarusian literary language: the Wislica Statute (1423-1438)....

        They transferred St. Scripture (Francisk Skorina, Vasily Tyapinsky, Simon Budny, etc.), pan-European fiction (The Tale of Trishchan, The Tale of Troy, The Tale of Bava, The Tale of Skanderbeg, etc.) and much more.

        some "Belarus"


        Belarus was created on the territory based on the ethnic group that lived there.

        The ethnic territory of Belarusians is the territory of compact settlement of Belarusians as an ethnic group. The ethnogenesis of Belarusians and their ethnic history are associated with this territory.
        The geographical environment belonging to the ethnic territory is not only the sphere of residence of Belarusians, but also the basis of life, which determines the specifics of economic activities and creative culture.

        In today's Belarus itself, in addition to the official Belarusian language, there are numerous natural native dialects that are very different from the official language.


        AND? The English language also has dialects, just like other languages.
        1. +1
          12 November 2023 16: 40
          Quote from stelltok
          In Slavic studies it is generally accepted that the division of colloquial folk dialects Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian languages ​​occurred approximately in the 14 century ..

          Did you really understand what was written here? There are many different versions about the origin of the Russian language; it is important to define what is meant by it. But as for “Ukrainian and Belarusian” - are you too lazy to personally inquire when these languages ​​first came into being, and who the specific creators of these languages ​​are? This information is not classified at all and is available to everyone. I can’t answer all the crazy projects when and by whom they were made.
          And as for the dialects of English, study in what specific year in the British Isles this language began to be studied in schools without fail. But in Great Britain, people of the Briton tribe used to live, just like in Britain (now Breton), but in the second case it was the same At the time, compulsory education in French was introduced, although both Britons have a single native language called both British and Gaelic in different places. By the way, tell me in what years compulsory primary education was introduced in Great Britain and France, this will help you determine the time when you started learning all these new languages ​​in these places.
          In general, it is very difficult for me to comment on convinced Svidomites about the time of the appearance of newly manufactured languages.
          1. +2
            12 November 2023 19: 14
            Did you really understand what was written here?

            You yourself didn’t understand anything.

            There are many different versions about the origin of the Russian language; it is important to define what is meant by it.

            Start with the fact that the Russian language (unfortunately) has been changed (more than once).
            For example, the prefix “BES” instead of “BEZ” was introduced into the Russian language in 1921
            Contrary to the rules of the Russian language.
            Without this it is Old Slavonic.
            And there are many such moments.
            For example, the Old Slavonic Rozha is a beautiful face.
            What does it mean in Russian? Completely different meaning.

            At the same time, other Slavic languages ​​have (fortunately) retained many Slavic parameters.
            Even Zadornov (and not only) said that in other Slavic languages ​​there are many good things that should be adopted into the Russian language.
            1. -2
              12 November 2023 20: 24
              Quote from stelltok
              .. For example, Old Slavonic ..

              And again you use a widely used openly left-wing term: I remind you that the non-Russian term “Slavs” appears in Russia only in 1701 and not earlier, but the term “Old Church Slavonic” is even much younger. And as for the fact that spelling rules in Rus' were constantly changing - this is a commonplace. Here you mentioned only one episode, also known to me, about the prefix “without”; by the way, according to the previous rules, it was written both together and separately. I was more interested in the changes in the rules of the general, apparently also Russian language, for example, on the territory of today's Holland, and no, thanks to changes in the school curriculum in those places, the suffixes inherent in the Russian language were canceled and the language was instantly reformatted from synthetic to analytical, like all languages ​​of the “Germanic” language groups. This is also an interesting fact. I am writing to you so that you understand that until the real and frankly artificial creation of the Belarusian and Ukrainian languages, the use of such terms is simply not acceptable, this is an outright distortion of reality. And here you have come up with the idea that it is now customary for many to attribute its appearance to God knows what time. What, then the inhabitants of the territory of modern Belarus once had their own state? Yes, there really was such a state entity as the “Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Russia and Zhomoit”! Well, where were the mythical Belarusians at that time? And was Poland, for example, created at that time (Polonia in the original), but this is the territory of the former Galician Rus', simply taken over by someone. I am simply against all these newfangled innovations in historical science that are not confirmed by absolutely anything. By the way, on January 2, 1919, the newly created Belarus included only the city of Minsk itself and subsequently simply expanded. I looked at the ethnic composition of Minsk at that time and they write that there were Great Russians and Little Russians, and even more Jews, the Pale of Settlement after all. But it’s difficult with Belarusians; they are not even included in this list. All this needs to be dealt with and sorted out for a long time and very calmly, without any rush at all.
              1. +2
                13 November 2023 10: 15
                The non-Russian term “Slavs” appears in Russia only in 1701 and not earlier, and the term “Old Church Slavonic” is even much younger.


                And what about Russia?
                Is your whole world limited only to Russia?
                Well, the Serbs are Slavs.
                And that they were not considered Slavs until 1701?
                Are you seriously?
                Or do you think the Slavs appeared only in 1701?

                And as for the fact that spelling rules in Rus' were constantly changing - this is a commonplace.


                And?
                Much Slavic remains in other Slavic languages.
                But for some reason, in the Russian language, Slavic parameters were planned to be destroyed.

                What, then the inhabitants of the territory of modern Belarus once had their own state?


                Everyone once did not have their own state.
                There was the Fatyanovo culture.
                Further from this culture, Slavic tribes began to appear.
                Dregovichi, Krivichi,... appeared.
                These were the base tribes.
                The foundation of Belarusians.
                In the 6th century, the first political associations were formed - tribal unions.
                The first chronicle mention of the city of Polotsk and the Principality of Polotsk dates back to the 9th century.
                Then other principalities appear. etc.

                A little later, under 980, chronicles indicate the Principality of Turov.
                Polotsk and Turov principalities - These are the first state formations.

                State is a union of citizens formed for the common purpose of protecting their lives, liberty and property.

                With their appearance, new cities were founded in Belarus.
                The oldest of them are Vitebsk (947), Zaslavl (late 1019th century), Brest (1067), Orsha (1078), Logoisk (1097), Pinsk (1102), Borisov (XNUMX G.).

                The state contributed to the development of culture, writing, and religion.
                At this time, Belarusians converted to Christianity.
                Its spread on the territory of Belarus is associated with the activities of Euphrosyne of Polotsk.

                In the 13th century, the Belarusians united with the Balts to form a state - the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (GDL).

                Yes, there really was such a state entity as the “Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Russia and Zhomoit”! Well, where were the mythical Belarusians at that time?


                And you read who the Belarusians are (the same descendants of the Dregovichs).
                Learn a lot of interesting things.

                And was Poland, for example, created at that time (Polonia in the original), but this is the territory of the former Galician Rus',

                What???
                Poland originated from the Wends.
                Poland has nothing to do with Galician Rus.
                Poles have DNA karyotype z484. Ukrainians have z284.
                As you can see there is a difference.

                I'm just against all these newfangled innovations

                You just have a narrow outlook.

                By the way, on January 2, 1919, the newly created Belarus included only the city of Minsk itself

                And?
                The Belarusians occupied a much larger territory than Minsk.
                RI also once occupied a very small territory. Then it expanded.

                I looked at the ethnic composition of Minsk at that time


                And what does this have to do with the period of 1919?
                Let's look at the ethnic composition of Moscow for the current period?

                But it’s difficult with Belarusians

                Census of the Russian Empire of 1897

                By native language, the largest language groups, in descending order, are Great Russians (Russians) - 44,3%, Little Russians (Ukrainians) - 17,8%, Poles - 6,3%, Belarusians (Belarusians) - 4,3%, Jews - 4,0%.

                As you can see, according to the census, there are Belarusians in the Republic of Ingushetia.
                But for some reason you don’t see anything.
                Expand your horizons.
                Even a bit.
          2. +2
            12 November 2023 21: 46
            in which years compulsory primary education was introduced in the UK and France?
            In Great Britain - in 1880 (France - 1882), 50 years earlier than in Russia.
            1. -6
              13 November 2023 08: 57
              Quote: Bolt Cutter
              in which years compulsory primary education was introduced in the UK and France?
              In Great Britain - in 1880 (France - 1882), 50 years earlier than in Russia.

              Now imagine that neither in France nor in Great Britain until that time there were practically no opportunities for the mass study of French and English, respectively! Linguists write that only by the beginning of the 1900th century, that is, in 100, in the British Isles already half of the population spoke fluently in the new English language. At the same time, in the province of Brittany (this is France today), the compulsory study of French met with considerable resistance; the inhabitants of this part of France continued to resist such linguistic innovations and the authorities were forced to resort to the most severe measures when teaching young children in schools. In our territory, for example, the Ukrainian SSR, they also took draconian measures to study a new language, which was called Ukrainian. Now it’s the same thing: the prohibition of teaching in schools in the native language and the introduction of compulsory teaching in an unfamiliar language, called by misunderstanding the state language, although in fact French, English or Ukrainian are more suitable under the concept of occupation languages. The same situation is on all the American continents - there today, in absolutely all countries, essentially foreign, imported languages ​​from other continents are used as state languages, that is, in essence, XNUMX% linguistic occupation of huge continents. Just tough! And only in some countries their native languages ​​are still used as official languages. Russia is among them, which cannot be said about Ukraine or even Belarus. Isn't it interesting information?
    2. 0
      12 November 2023 10: 53
      Quote: tatra
      -and according to the 1897 census, there were Great Russians, Little Russians, and White Russians speaking different languages.

      These are the shortcomings of the census. And if in the paragraph languages ​​there would also be the meaning surzhik. Two thirds of the people you call Ukrainians would have to be called Surzhiks)))
      You need to understand that the “Little Russian” language appears in the 1897 census. And Grushevsky’s language is not the same thing.
      1. +4
        12 November 2023 23: 06
        Very close. Taking into account, of course, the fact that Grushevsky was a university professor and academician of the USSR Academy of Sciences.
        Read Kotlyarevsky’s “Aeneid”, it’s from the end of the 18th century. It is written in completely modern Ukrainian, which was already formed by that time. Then they just formalized the already formed rules so that Ukrainian would become literary.
        1. -4
          13 November 2023 12: 27
          Quote from solar
          Grushevsky was a university professor and academician of the USSR Academy of Sciences.

          Because like some other “revolutionaries” he worked for German intelligence. His works were banned in the USSR
          Quote from solar
          Read Kotlyarevsky’s “Aeneid”, it’s from the end of the 18th century. It is written in completely modern Ukrainian,

          If all Chinese are similar to each other to you, this does not mean that they are the same.
  8. +7
    12 November 2023 07: 34
    Karamzin was the court historian of the Romanovs and was appointed in order to distort the history of Russia so that no one in Russia would have a question about the right of the Romanov dynasty to sit on the royal throne after the death of Tsar Fedor, the last of the Rurik dynasty ... For This is what was needed to persecute Ivan the Terrible, as one of the greatest of the Rurikovich dynasty, they say, where are they compared to the pro-Western Romanovs.. But since Karamzin died creating the “History of Russia...” having only reached the Time of Troubles, then he is in this in his labor he only managed to make a mess about Grozny, but didn’t have time to write anything about the legitimacy of the throne under the sirloin of the Romanovs. For that he managed something else. It was Karamzin, an ardent Anglophile and Polonophile, who, on the advice of the British and Poles, invented the term Kievan Rus in order to alienate the outskirts of the Russian land from the rest of Russia. Karamzin Maksimovich, the seemingly completely harmless rector of Kyiv University, sang along. But such “innocence” is deceptive, especially since the ideas of pro-Westernism from Karamzin were picked up by the historian Kostomarov. When Maksimovich was the rector of Kiev University, Kostomarov, as a harmless pan-Slavic dreamer, joined the innocuous-named Cyril and Methodius Brotherhood, whose program was a federation of Slavic countries, moreover, Russia and Ukraine were to be included in this federation as two separate independent states. And this is in the nineteenth century in Russia! Tell me, what is the difference between Karamzin and Kostomarov? And the fact is that the first was a cunning teacher of the falsified history of Russia, for which he ended up at the “Russian Millennium Monument”, and the second, thinking that the historian was not a cart but a horse, and confused the places in this team with the Romanovs, for which he was sent into exile after the defeat of this Cyril and Methodius Brotherhood. By the way, not all historians of that time and later were like Karamzin-Kostomarov.
  9. +14
    12 November 2023 08: 05
    How often am I forced to “defend” N.M. Karamzine, without being his fan.
    N. M. Karamzin - on the one hand, was the ideological leader of moderate Russian conservatives, to the right of them were the Skalozubs and Sobakevichs.
    On the other hand, it is not for nothing that he is called the first Russian HISTORIOGRAPHER.
    Without him, Russian society, noble society, of course, would have had no interest in Russian history. He was the first to express a lot of hypotheses that became fundamental in Russian historiography and history, and to this day, he opened the world of Russian history to the reading public. But being, how could it be otherwise in the XNUMXth century, a monarchist, he looked at history as a consistent chain of reigns of sovereigns. However, even now the majority of the masses look at history through his eyes: here is under Stalin, here is Khrushchev, here is Putin, etc.
    Of course, many of his conclusions were criticized in his day...and to this day. But historical science was only taking its first steps.
    And...without the influence of European historical science it simply would not have existed. Because it was in Europe that it originated and developed in the scientific sense of the word with the development of rationalism. Like all other sciences in the modern sense, and not in the sense of alchemy and astrology of the Middle Ages.
    By the way, without Karamzin there would have been neither “Boris Godunov” nor other historical creations of the “sun of our poetry” A.S. Pushkin.
    Today, “fighting” against Karamzin is the same as against stone monuments; he is the property of our historiography and culture.
    Karamzin could be forgiven in the XNUMXth century. to be a literary historian and an “inventor” of hypotheses, such a level of scientific knowledge was at that time, it is another thing to be one in our days.
    1. +7
      12 November 2023 08: 31
      It’s just that Tatishchev and Lomonosov were not allowed to write history. And Karamzin is not a Russian, but a Romanov historiographer.
      1. 0
        13 November 2023 19: 00
        It's just...Lomonosov was not allowed to write history.

        Above is a photograph of the Lomonosov history textbook. The work that Karamzin did is not something everyone can handle. And then Karamzin’s life was not enough to finish. And Mikhailo Vasilyevich was a versatile person, he did a lot of things, it is unlikely that he would have been so fascinated by historiography that he would have had neither time nor energy left for anything else.
    2. +4
      12 November 2023 09: 56
      Thus, Karamzin is V. Pikul (or B. Akunin) of the late eighteenth - early nineteenth century!
    3. -1
      12 November 2023 10: 48
      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
      Karamzin could be forgiven in the XNUMXth century. to be a literary historian and an “inventor” of hypotheses

      Is it generally impossible to correct and correct the inventor of hypotheses?
      1. +8
        12 November 2023 15: 23
        Karamzin could be forgiven in the XNUMXth century. to be a literary historian and an “inventor” of hypotheses
        Is it generally impossible to correct and correct the inventor of hypotheses?

        Over the two hundred years of the existence of Russian historical science, Karamzin has been corrected and corrected more than once. But telling “amateurs” that he is an “inventor” is not appropriate.
        Moreover, the formation of new, incomprehensible inventions about some thousand-year history before Rurik or the fairy tales of Lomonosov, with all due respect to the figure of the scientist himself.
        It’s not clear why in 2023 one should fiddle with one’s memories of what Karamzin described anyway?
        When professional modern science exists - and its level corresponds to modern scientific thought.
        PS The story is not about who came up with what in the morning after a hangover, reading history only in high school and in Zen, but knowledge of the languages ​​of sources, knowledge of their analysis and a bunch of auxiliary disciplines (VID), which history buffs don’t even know about .
        1. +9
          12 November 2023 16: 35
          The story is not about who came up with what in the morning after a hangover
          I just read the title of the article, I didn’t want to read further hi By the way, commentators study history according to A. Samsonov and similar authors. But they do not notice this. laughing hi
          1. +7
            12 November 2023 16: 43
            Alexey good evening,
            Karamzin may have many questions, but, firstly, he will no longer answer.
            And, secondly, the fact that history is distorted can be said about everyone who writes about it. Just like physicists or mathematicians.
            For example, how Euclid distorted mathematics. How Lamar distorted biology. How Pearson misrepresented the statistics.
            Because science is developing.
            laughing hi hi
            1. +8
              12 November 2023 16: 51
              Because science is developing.
              Good evening, Edward! History develops in a spiral. Both in one direction and in the other. Since 1991, the spiral has rolled in the opposite direction. I am afraid that we are facing 451 degrees, Fahrenheit, in the near future. “Where gray triumphs, blacks always come to power.” (c) And judging by the article and numerous comments, she is triumphant. “It’s just some kind of holiday!” (c) laughing hi
            2. 0
              12 November 2023 20: 37
              What did Pearson do wrong?
              1. 0
                13 November 2023 08: 57
                What did Pearson do wrong?

                Sergey, good morning,
                according to the “logic about Karamzin”, he “distorted” the correlation of Charles Spearman laughing laughing lol
                hi
        2. -5
          13 November 2023 08: 02
          Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
          Over two hundred years of the existence of Russian historical science, Karamzin adjusted and corrected not once.

          They corrected it, but they never corrected it. Some are still studying the slandered Ivan the Terrible according to Karamzin.

          Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
          Why bother with memories in 2023, whatever Karamzin described?
          When does professional modern science exist - and its level corresponds to modern scientific thought.

          Is it Medinsky, or what, who extols the tsars and Russia of the example of Nicholas, modern and scientific thought??
          Karamzin reminds me very much of Medinsky. Both are court historians. Well, in 2023 history is more politicized than ever. What we have, what they have.
          1. +2
            13 November 2023 19: 14
            Karamzin reminds me very much of Medinsky.

            Karamzin - historian, Medinsky, Vladimir Rostislavovich - Russian statesman and political figure (VIKI). Even if he calls himself a historian, how is he related to historical science? And by the way,
            who extols the tsars and Russia modeled after Nicholas,

            I wouldn't say it so clearly. I listened to his program about Nicholas and the Crimean War. It seems very likely that he was talking about modern Russia and a completely different war. And he said things that were very unpleasant for the ears of “pseudo-patriots”.
  10. +2
    12 November 2023 08: 17
    The author writes about the Vikings. But the Vikings and Varangians, it seems to me, are very different peoples.
    Ukrainians are everyone who lived in the Ukrainians (outskirts) of the Russian land. Only in the area that is now called Ukraine, there were no Ukrainians. The Wild Field is a place where no one lived, only Tatars ran around. On the Dnieper lived the Cossacks, Cherkasy, and to the west the Poles. Which of them should be called Ukrainian?
    As for the Romanovs. Everything has been rewritten here too. It is unknown when the Zakharyins became the Romanovs. After the death of Alexei Mikhailovich, Fyodor Alekseevich, John and Peter Alekseevich ruled. These are all sons. Then Marta Skavronskaya - no one. Peter II is the grandson of Peter I. Then Anna Ioanovna, daughter of Ivan Alekseevich. Anna Leopoldovna is the granddaughter of Ivan Alekseevich. Finally, Elizaveta Petrovna, after all, the daughter of Peter I. Then Sophia Augusta and no one seized power. And from her the Romanovs came.
    1. +2
      12 November 2023 09: 58
      Quote: Gardamir
      The author writes about the Vikings. But the Vikings and Varangians, it seems to me, are very different peoples.

      You see, I think that neither some “Vikings” or even Varangians are actually peoples at all. Today they have already begun to study this issue in detail and what has turned out to be: In general, nowhere in the original Scandinavian chronicles, even of the XNUMXth century, is there even a hint of the presence of references to certain “Vikings”. Well, no, that’s all. “Vikings” appear in Scandinavian publics only in the XNUMXth century, that is, it seems that this is generally an invention of foreigners regarding the Scandinavians, the term is not from the languages ​​​​and dialects of the Scandinavian peninsula, but from somewhere far away. And as for the “Varangians”, even on the medal of the period of Catherine the Great, today’s name of the Latin origin of the Baltic Sea under Catherine was called the Varangian Sea, but I have serious doubts that it was a separate people, most likely this is still more of a specialty. For example, in V. Dahl and many other authors of the XNUMXth century, the Varangians understand people as peddlers, that is, small traders with the delivery of goods, similar to today’s gastrobaiters, who often deliver goods directly to their homes. That is, whatever one may say, this is to a greater extent a specialty, a specialization in work activity, but not a race or a people. So here, too, everything is very, very seriously confused. Something like this ...
      1. +3
        12 November 2023 12: 56
        But the Vikings were never a people. These are seafaring warriors or robbers, depending on how you look at them. And they were called Normans in Europe. And Varangians in Rus' called all people from Scandinavia and the shores of the Baltic, who were mainly engaged in trade.
        1. +5
          12 November 2023 16: 23
          Vikings - this is modern language, PMCs)))
          Varangians are traders.
          1. +1
            13 November 2023 19: 18
            Varangians are traders.

            The Byzantines had “varangi” - mercenary warriors from Scandinavia, England, and Rus'. And so war and trade always go hand in hand.
  11. +11
    12 November 2023 09: 37
    History shouldn't be written in someone's interests? And it needs to be written - is it a novel or what? “Writing” is probably appropriate only in terms of recording, documenting facts. And now such pearls are popping up in our country - direct analogies with the Sumerians - the diggers of the Black Sea - suggest themselves.
    1. +5
      12 November 2023 10: 27
      History is what happened, not what was written. In order for history to be in unison with what is written, archives and chronicles should be accessible only to exclusively honest and impartial historians. Moreover, we must proceed from the fact that the chroniclers were also just as honest and impartial, and the government that allows the historian to publish all the historical truth that he discovered in the archives and which was also written by honest chroniclers will be just as honest.
      Agree that perhaps no one has ever heard such a unison “singing”, although the archives are bursting with materials and there are tons of historians.
  12. +9
    12 November 2023 10: 15

    Another “truthful” source for Karamzin was the “testimony” of foreigners. “History of the Russian State” by Nikolai Karamzin contains numerous references to the works of P. Oderborn, A. Guagnini, T. Bredenbach, I. Taube, E. Kruse, J. Fletcher, P. Petrey, M. Stryjkovsky, Daniil Prince, I. Kobenzl , R. Heidenstein, A. Possevino and other foreigners. Karamzin also took later Western sources as sources.

    What sources were there, these were the ones I used. If there were others, I would use them.
    Karamzin is worthy of a monument simply because he was the first to generalize and describe our history in good and modern language, laying the cornerstone of Russian historiography. You can and should argue with him, but name me a historian with whom you cannot argue. Many people can criticize Karamzin, but how many are capable of creating something comparable?
  13. -1
    12 November 2023 10: 33
    The article is disgusting, stupid obscurantism, the comments are even worse.
    Yes, Rurik was a Scandinavian, like the rest of the Russians, and Ivan the Terrible was crazy
    1. -3
      12 November 2023 16: 25
      Yes, Rurik was a Scandinavian

      Rurik was of Slavic origin.
      There are DNA tests that confirm this.
      1. -1
        12 November 2023 18: 56
        Where did you get this? DNA research confirms that most Rurikovichs (descended mainly from Vladimir Monomakh) have haplogroup N1a1, common in northeastern Europe, as well as among some peoples of Siberia and the Urals. Rurikovich DNA on Family Tree DNA, haplotypes N1a1 are found mainly in the Baltic states, Finland, Sweden, Norway, most often found in the area of ​​Uppsala, the capital of the ancient Swedish kingdom
        There are some suspicious citizens here (for example
        Stas157 (Stas) can say that Ivan the Terrible, due to his origin, was under Swedish influence, but mostly sane people read VO
        1. -1
          13 November 2023 07: 30
          Quote: Deck
          suspicious citizens (for example
          Stas157 (Stas) can say that Ivan the Terrible, due to his origin, was under Swedish influence, but mostly sane people read VO

          About sanity and suspiciousness. Where did I claim that Grozny was under Swedish influence?

          Stop telling tales or whatever you imagine.
        2. -4
          13 November 2023 10: 32
          Where did you get this? DNA research confirms that the majority of Rurikovichs (descended mainly from Vladimir Monomakh) have haplogroup N1a1,


          You're wrong.
          And you are making a very serious mistake.

          There were DNA studies of the Rurikovichs
          2 groups of Rurikovichs had 2 haplogroups
          1) N1c1 (Slavic South Baltic, in modern Russia they are represented mainly by ethnic Russians, Slavs.)
          2)R1A (Slavic)

          Result: Rurik is of Slavic origin.
          Regardless of which of these 2 groups is correct.
          Proof:
          https://vk.com/doc-86388164_437055307

          N1a1 haplotypes are found mainly in the Baltic states, Finland, Sweden, Norway, most often found in the area of ​​Uppsala, the capital of the ancient Swedish kingdom.

          First:
          1) Read less nonsense.
          Secondly:
          Swedes have haplogroup I1. Norway does too. There is no trace of N1A1.
          In the Baltics, in general, 40 to 40 haplogroups are N1c1 (Slavic) and R1A
          In Finland N1c Finno-Ugric
          1. -4
            13 November 2023 11: 39
            Quote from stelltok
            First:
            1) Read less nonsense.
            Secondly:
            Swedes have haplogroup I1. Norway does too. There is no trace of N1A1.
            In the Baltics, in general, 40 to 40 haplogroups are N1c1 (Slavic) and R1A
            In Finland N1c Finno-Ugric

            Here, too, you make further inaccuracies: In Finland it is not “N1c Finno-Ugric” at all, namely Karelian-Finnish and their language is not even Ugoro-Finnish, but truly Karelian-Finnish, created on the basis of the language of the White Sea Karelian tribe. As for the Ugoro-Finnish people, they have haplogroup N1B1 and their language is different, and they really belong to the “Ugoro-Finnish” groups centered in the Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug, so you really need to be more careful. And they personally wrote such a footcloth to me that I don’t know where to find space for numerous answers to numerous clearly inaccurate accusations against me. Yes, this term “Slavs” is not Russian-language, but has a directly offensive origin from the Latin “sclaveni”, which in dialect in Latin means “slave” and this term appeared on the territory of today’s Croatia in a Catholic environment and first appeared in literature in the book of Mavro Orbini “ Slavic Kingdom" was released for the first time only in 1601 in Latin. But Peter, who arrived from Holland, gave instructions to publish a translation of this book into Russian as one of his first decrees. It is possible that this information is simply not familiar to you, so check it yourself and take it into account in the future.
  14. +2
    12 November 2023 10: 36
    that Karamzin and Samsonov are both far from historical science, read works on archeology and not about superethnos
  15. +2
    12 November 2023 10: 42
    It is unlikely that the Iranian-speaking Scythians were our ancestors. Well, we were hardly the oldest people on earth either. Russians are a union of Slavic and Finno-Ugric tribes.
  16. +5
    12 November 2023 11: 01
    All these cries about “being lied to” happen only because history is being used for political purposes. Both then and now. In addition, the history of a state and the history of an ethnic group or nation are different things. And in the first case, you need to look at the development of the state under a particular ruler, and not at its origin or moral character. Who cares, except individual historians, what Pythagoras or Beethoven, Newton or Rembrandt were like in everyday life? It is also necessary to evaluate the same Prince Igor, Ivan the Terrible, Peter I, etc., based on objective results. What difference does it make that Pushkin was a descendant of an Ethiopian, and Catherine the Great was even German, if they felt themselves Russian and did more for Russia than many hereditary Russians.
  17. +6
    12 November 2023 11: 02
    All authoritative historians in the Historical Society respect Karamzin. Not a single serious work writes about the rewriting of our history by the West, the monstrous provocations of the Vatican and the Mongol myth. And by the way, during the times of the USSR, which was clearly independent from the West, they didn’t write either. Think about why - all historians throughout the existence of Russia were liars and traitors or what? Yes, simply because this is a modern political propaganda at the level of ancient ukrov, nothing more.
  18. +10
    12 November 2023 12: 26
    The article is not about Karamzin and his work. This is just a reason for campaigning under the slogan “Down with the West! Let Great Rus' be reborn!” The author did not say anything independent about the man and his work. Everything stated in the text is an adaptation of many texts on the topic of “the distorted history of Russia” that authors like Dugin regal us with.
  19. -5
    12 November 2023 13: 08
    Rus' does not and cannot have a “history”. There is a FAIRY TALE that explains everything you need. It was the Russian fairy tale with its “living and living” that made it possible to cover spaces while Western historians were inventing the false greatness of the pieces of the “patchwork quilt”.

    Science and philosophy are insidious “handmaids” who have locked the “simple master”, Everyday Meaning, in a dusty closet of false fabrications.
  20. +4
    12 November 2023 13: 09
    It is worth noting that at this time Russian secular society, mainly of noble origin, knew better the history of Ancient Rome and Greece, Western Europe than Russia.

    Cryptohistorian Samsonov is not even able to realize that “Russian secular society,” as well as “church society,” “knew the history of Ancient Rome and Greece, Western Europe better than Russia” for the simplest reason - the history of Russia at that time was accessible to “ society" did not exist in nature. That is, an individual who is trying to position himself as some kind of historian, in reality, as a historian, is extremely ignorant. Therefore, his “historical creativity” occurs under the motto, which is formulated in an ancient Russian proverb:
    The fool is beaten at the altar
  21. +3
    12 November 2023 13: 37
    Quote: Bayun
    It was the Russian fairy tale with its “living and living” that made it possible to cover spaces while Western historians were inventing the false greatness of the pieces of the “patchwork quilt”.


    Um, the false majesty of the quilt pieces? Take an interest in the size of the Portuguese, Spanish, British, French empires...
  22. +1
    12 November 2023 14: 19
    Let’s assume for a second that Karamzin, practically a witness to History, distorted it. The question is, what can Russophobic apologists now do with HER after almost 200 years?
    As Diogenes said, “Don’t make fun of my sandals!!!”
  23. +3
    12 November 2023 14: 22
    . “Mongols from Mongolia”, despite all the facts that this simply cannot be (The Myth of the Tatar-Mongol Yoke), period.

    Samsonov convinced. Nabiullina is Russian. wink
    These guys too.

  24. +2
    12 November 2023 14: 26
    . However, writing existed in Rus' even before the Greek missionaries.

    I would like to see at least one example. Do not offer runes. You can grab a sentence for them... wassat
    1. -6
      12 November 2023 16: 04
      Quote: Arzt
      . However, writing existed in Rus' even before the Greek missionaries.

      I would like to see at least one example. Do not offer runes...

      For this purpose, we have long had a laboratory for the study of ancient forms of writing at the Academy of Sciences of the Russian Federation; in the simplest case, familiarize yourself with at least the previous form of writing called “Glagolic” and this is just for starters. And in the future you can move on to more ancient forms of writing, but I think this is not for everyone...
      And here’s another thing: according to documents, such concepts as “Mongolia” and even today’s “Mongols” appear only in 1920 - this is according to documents, earlier this term was used to define someone unknown, quite possibly just “Mughals”, but then they were still Aryans . Also study this issue more closely.
      1. +3
        12 November 2023 20: 58
        check out at least the previous form of writing called "glagolitic"

        Which was invented by the Greek Cyril.
        1. -4
          12 November 2023 21: 46
          Quote from Frettaskyrandi
          Which was invented by the Greek Cyril.

          Wow, it’s the same restless “Kirill” again. Let's read what they write about him:
          “Today, it is finally officially recognized that the Glagolitic alphabet is older than the Cyrillic alphabet, and that it existed long before the Cyrillic alphabet was chosen as the “church alphabet” of the Slavic peoples defeated by the Greeks. Cyril and Methodius owned it - and on its basis they created the Cyrillic alphabet. ".
          . And this despite the fact that no real evidence of the existence of these same Cyril and Methodius exists today, but only the vague term “Cyrillic alphabet” exists, and that we will attribute the Glagolitic alphabet to these phantoms. Won't it be too greasy and won't anything stick together? Just think with your head what you allow yourself to write here?
          1. 0
            13 November 2023 19: 29
            Today it is finally officially recognized

            Who is recognized?
            laboratory for the study of ancient forms of writing at the Russian Academy of Sciences

            Are you sure? The obscurantist Chudinovites can call themselves whatever they want, but the RAS has nothing to do with it.
      2. +3
        13 November 2023 00: 22
        For this purpose, we have long had a laboratory for the study of ancient forms of writing at the Academy of Sciences of the Russian Federation; in the simplest case, familiarize yourself with at least the previous form of writing called “Glagolic” and this is just for starters. And in the future you can move on to more ancient forms of writing, but I think this is not for everyone...

        Glagolitic? And what was it that the Russians wrote for the first time in Kyiv laughing Glagolitic sheets? A fragment of the liturgy according to the Roman rite? A strange text for the Russian pagans... wink
  25. -2
    12 November 2023 16: 16
    Quote: U. Cheny
    .. in Rus' all immigrants from Scandinavia and the shores of the Baltic were called Varangians ..

    In Rus', the Latin term “Baltic” had not been used before, but in the XNUMXth century the Varangian Sea was actually called that, although before that many people used numerous other names. As for the rest, of course, I completely agree with you. It’s just that different names are often used at different times: sometimes Stalingrad, sometimes Tsaritsyn, etc.
  26. +5
    12 November 2023 16: 20
    Quote: venaya
    And second: even in today’s version of Vladimir Dahl’s book, he explains the meaning of the words “Ukraine” and “Ukrainian”

    can credit?
  27. +2
    12 November 2023 16: 26
    Quote: venaya
    I myself am from Novgorod, there a certain German immediately told me that he was from Stargorod itself, in modern German it sounds like Stuttgart (Stuttgart).

    Stuttgart – Diese Stadt war früher ein Gestüt und wurde mit dem mittelhochdeutschen Wort "stuotgarte" bezeichnet, was so viel wie Stutengarten oder "Gestüt" bedeutet.

    Translate?
    1. -2
      12 November 2023 17: 18
      Quote: sevryuk
      Translate?

      What for? It’s clear to me. Let me just remind you that the German language in those places appeared much later than the name of this city. I don’t distrust the yellow press at all; now you can come up with any story, if only you have the desire and the appropriate funding required for this. Maybe you have some other data on the appearance of the German language in those places, but I trust professional German linguists more, this question was already raised here many years ago, you unfortunately simply missed this topic...
  28. +5
    12 November 2023 16: 35
    Quote: Alexander Ra
    The words “Ukraine” and “marginal” are the same root (“margo” (Latin) – edge). The marginalization of the outskirts of our people is a sign of the ongoing successful assimilation of us by Europeans, this is an accurate diagnosis.


    What does marginalization have to do with it? There was once a Polish-Lithuanian Ukraine, then it broke away from the then “center”. There was a Moscow (Slobodskaya) Ukraine, then - after the capture of Crimea and Taurida - it ceased to be such...
    1. 0
      13 November 2023 19: 35
      Absolutely.
      “...Marginal,.. marginal element (from Latin margo - edge) - a person located on the border of various social groups, systems, cultures and experiencing the influence of their contradictory norms and values"
      The diffusion of cultures and ideologies occurs everywhere and in different ways. Marginal - on this topic, and not ordinary - primitive. Marginality as hybridity distorts cultural “genotypes.” One can see this as a search for new forms, but basically it is a flawed mutation.
  29. +4
    12 November 2023 16: 59
    Friends, gentlemen, comrades!
    Two main problems of history as a science:

    1) History, as an official science, is the servant of politicians, rulers and rulers of all kinds. Just an integral part of the current state ideology.

    Example. How everything changed during the life of just one Soviet generation (born in the 1950s):

    - Stalin is a tyrant, a villain, a paranoid - according to the version of Khrushchev’s “thaw” (more precisely, evil and dirt)

    - Stalin is, in general, a smart manager, won such a war and saved the country, but went a little too far with repressions (Brezhnev’s version, years of “stagnation”).
    In Georgia at that time, handicraft photographic portraits of the Leader of the Nations were on every car; in Russia, calendars and booklets with his portraits were sold by train. Requests from workers to return Stalingrad instead of Volgograd.

    - Stalin is again a tyrant, a villain, a paranoid, he destroyed 30 billion (!) innocent people (voiced on TV, I heard it myself) - Gorbachev’s perestroika, the version of Ogonyok and others like it.

    - Stalin is great, wise, destroyed the fifth column and all kinds of traitors, brilliantly won WWII, created a great and powerful country, and we... - the modern semi-official version in Russia (there is no official ideology now).

    2) The problem of sources, historical documents.

    What to take as a basis? The current topic of WWII is now, for us it is the Great Patriotic War.
    Some military historians dreamed of gaining access to closed Soviet military archives, others thought - let's get into the German ones and find out the whole truth. What is the true price of Victory?

    The dreams of many have come true. The archives were opened and everyone rushed to read reports and reports on military operations at the level of divisions and regiments... They read it and there were even more misunderstandings. It turned out to be some kind of devilry... For example, how many planes were actually shot down by ours, and how many by the Krauts? They even dug up somewhere a log of the losses of the most important German quartermaster general (!). And then he slipped the fascist a meanie - a completely different method of accounting for German losses - what the hell is written.... It turned out like a Fritz - ours shot down so few, and they themselves lost so much - it’s even insulting...

    History is playing a cruel joke on us - there are more and more stunning documents in the public domain - but the truth is getting further and further, more and more offensive...

    Karamzin is a good illustration of the above


    1. 0
      12 November 2023 20: 04
      This is not a “servant story” - these are slaves - lackeys of the living Master. .

      And history is a science written on the basis of reliable documented facts and logical conclusions.

      The same Karamzin was an honorary member of the St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences. Do you understand what this means? Academicians recognized him, although no one could force them..... In those distant times, the word “authority” meant a scientist, not a bandit. Like now. You must have confused something.....
      1. -3
        12 November 2023 21: 32
        Quote: ivan2022
        In those distant times, the word “authority” meant a scientist, not a bandit. Like now

        Baby, word authority and now, in 2023, it doesn’t mean a bandit at all.

        And the fact that you teach your training manual here, where you can and cannot, paints you exactly... in a yellow-black color, “Vanya” Yes laughing
    2. 0
      13 November 2023 09: 55
      The most beautiful source in itself means nothing. You need to understand how it appeared, who the author is, how subjective it is, how it relates to other materials. That is, you need to live in that era, learn to understand the logic of those people, their morals, living conditions. And very few are capable of this.
      And I’m generally silent about statistics. About the same Germans, their accounting of losses was radically different, for example, a person was sent to the hospital, and that’s it, these are no longer combat losses, but a different column. In the 90s, our statistics changed the composition of indicators almost every year, some were combined, others were divided, and it was impossible to make a comparison in principle.
  30. 0
    12 November 2023 17: 32
    In fact, everything is correct. Historical knowledge (more appropriately “knowledge”) is used to govern society. This is the main function of “historical science” as a social institution. And that’s why Karamzin is a historian. Roughly and oversimplifying - a propagandist on a salary
    1. +1
      12 November 2023 20: 14
      I will believe that you are here on salary or Samsonov.... laughing But Karamzin was elected by academicians of the St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences - an honorary member of the Academy. They didn’t care who had what salary.... ...

      PS I guess that you and Samsonov are not honorary members of the RAS
      1. +1
        12 November 2023 20: 42
        Did the academicians support the academy at their own expense and finance its activities? Why were you ashamed to give its full name?
  31. +6
    12 November 2023 19: 02
    Whoever has not distorted the history of Russia to please the ruling authorities.
    Mikhail Zadornov said it best
    Russia is a country with an unpredictable past
  32. +4
    12 November 2023 19: 07
    Quote: Arzt
    I would like to see at least one example. Do not offer runes. You can grab a sentence for them...

    Please. They are called "Novgorod birch bark documents"
    1. +2
      12 November 2023 23: 19
      They were later
      Birch bark letters - letters and records on birch bark, monuments of writing of Ancient Rus' XI-XV centuries

      Writing developed in the middle of IX century by the enlightenment brothers Cyril and Methodius.
      1. +4
        13 November 2023 11: 21
        Quote from solar
        They were later

        http://gramoty.ru/birchbark/document/show/novgorod/752/

        Those. Do you think that the writing given in this example appeared by magic in the 1080s - 1100s?! belay belay belay
        Don’t you want to count back 8-12 hundred (at the very minimum) ...

        1. 0
          13 November 2023 19: 51

          Those. Do you think that the writing given in this example appeared by magic in the 1080s - 1100s?!

          Not by the wave of a magic wand, but by the decision of Prince Vladimir to Christianize Rus'.
          Don’t you want to count back 8-12 hundred (at the very minimum) ...

          We want. But there is no reason. We don’t believe in fairy tales and we don’t advise you to.
  33. +2
    12 November 2023 19: 32
    History is not an exact science, like mathematics or physics. It is not only subjective and can be written to suit the present day, but it is also quite changeable as new hitherto unknown documents are found somewhere in the deep recesses.
    It is impossible to accurately assess, especially after the death of the author, why and how he did something. This means that it is impossible to objectively condemn or approve of the author, speculating for him and not knowing thoroughly the entire background of the creation of his historical work.
    In my opinion, Karamzin N.M. - one of the great patriots of his homeland, who gave the state an official history that was missing before him. "Russian History" Tatishcheva V.N. It doesn’t count here, although Vasily Nikitich’s merits as a historian are very great.
    And here it doesn’t matter at all that much in his works is associated with the Germans or other peoples who tried to humiliate the Russian state, allegedly by their enlightenment over the Russian people.
    Karamzin gave a tremendous message with his historical work to the study of history, leaving enormous scope for the smart and inquisitive, in the form of controversial issues and dark spots. He stopped the development among the nobles and wealthy classes of such a person as “Ivan the Nepomnyashchie.”
    Thanks to his work, history, as a science, became an integral part of education at universities and subsequently gave birth to such historian-scientists as: M.P. Pogodin, K.S. Aksakov, N.I. Kostomarov, S.M. Soloviev, V. .O.Klyuchevsky.
    1. 0
      13 November 2023 17: 01
      History is not an exact science, like mathematics or physics. It is not only subjective and can be written to suit the present day, but it is also quite changeable as new hitherto unknown documents are found somewhere in the deep recesses.
      It is impossible to accurately assess, especially after the death of the author, why and how he did something. This means that it is impossible to objectively condemn or approve of the author, speculating for him and not knowing thoroughly the entire background of the creation of his historical work.

      Absolutely, completely and completely agree! good
  34. +2
    12 November 2023 21: 07
    Quote: ivan2022
    And history is a science written on the basis of reliable documented facts and logical conclusions.


    Sorry, point to the sky.
    EVERY HISTORIAN (or only one who considers himself one) assures that he writes history “on the basis of reliable documented facts and logical conclusions.” And Suvorov-Rezun and everyone like him thinks so. And Karamzin also thought. Therefore, each of them has its admirers and supporters.

    And what is considered “reliable documented facts”?

    Any Soviet schoolchild knew or heard about the “Tatar-Mongol yoke” in Rus'. Archaeological excavations of destroyed Russian cities seemed to confirm the testimony of chroniclers. Now the theory is gaining more and more supporters that all this is an invention of the papal nuncios, the Tatars, the Mongols - I don’t understand who at all, it seems they are also Russians, but instead of the yoke - there was a military alliance against who, I don’t understand, either. These are already “logical conclusions” from “reliably documented facts” that are being drawn.

    Logic is generally a relative thing. Logic cannot explain how, in general, a not very numerous horde of primitive wild nomads from distant Mongolia was able to defeat ALL the powerful empires and states that they came across. Moreover, armies of completely different types were completely defeated - from the numerous Arab cavalry to the best knightly army.

    Of course, the wonderful writer Ian seemed to explain all this sensibly in his popular novels “Genghis Khan”, “Batu”, “To the Last Sea”, but still...

    “What is history if not a lie with which everyone agrees?” - Napoleon said.

    1. +1
      12 November 2023 21: 15
      Suvorov, Fomenko and others like him have long been torn to smithereens by serious historians. And mind you, they do not have a historical education, and they are not members of the Historical Society or the Academy of Sciences. Therefore, their works cannot be taken seriously.

      By the way, “a not very numerous horde of primitive wild nomads” has nothing to do with reality.
      1. 0
        13 November 2023 01: 37
        Quote: Kmon
        By the way, “a not very numerous horde of primitive wild nomads” has nothing to do with reality.


        By the way, categorical judgments must be confirmed by equally categorical facts and arguments.

        I advise you to at least read this:
        https://www.yaplakal.com/forum7/topic1714872.html - подробные экономические выкладки сколько монгольского войска могло быть и прокормиться. Сравниваются данные разных летописцев, в т.ч. современников. Такова реальность...

        What's wrong?
        1. +1
          13 November 2023 10: 34
          All wrong. Read books by authoritative historians, everything is chewed up there, not the fantasies of no-names on the Internet. They will “prove” to you “mathematically” in no time that the Holocaust, for example, was impossible.
        2. +1
          13 November 2023 19: 58
          This is the reality...What's wrong?

          All wrong. In the 18th century, the Ural Kalmyk-Torguts migrated as a whole people back to Dzungaria. They went out fighting in the very cold. The entire campaign was documented by Russian and Chinese sources. Apparently the Torguts haven’t read your would-be economists.
      2. 0
        13 November 2023 11: 34
        Quote: Kmon
        And mind you, they do not have a historical education, and they are not members of the Historical Society or the Academy of Sciences. Therefore, their works cannot be taken seriously.

        Yeah, it means that if you’re not a member, that means you’re not right (fool in general)?! belay belay belay
        Yeahhh...cool proof!!! belay belay belay
  35. The comment was deleted.
  36. -1
    13 November 2023 05: 29
    Cyril and Methodius were good men: they made the Russian language more beautiful and harmonious! They didn’t reach the Italian level, but they did better than the German one.
    And historians, like scientists, are selected according to the wishes of the current elite. Take the same Anglo-Saxons: they were always too lazy to organize people - it was easier to kill. So they had the scientist Malthus, who pulled the demographic model of arthropods to humans by the ears. Although even to an uneducated person it is obvious that in chordates or humans only sexually productive activity is chemically determined, but not the raising and raising of children.
    1. 0
      13 November 2023 20: 01
      Cyril and Methodius were good men: they made the Russian language more beautiful and harmonious!

      Konstantin the Philosopher and Mikhail did not make Russian. Although the men are undoubtedly good.
      1. 0
        14 November 2023 06: 31
        To make the Russian language more beautiful and to make the Russian language more beautiful are two phrases that are opposite in meaning. In the first case, there is a reformation of it through the Church Slavonic language of Orthodox prayers. In the second case, we are talking about new phonetics, grammar and roots of high-frequency words of the Russian language.
        1. 0
          16 November 2023 15: 55
          Church Slavonic is essentially a South Slavic language. How different it was from the spoken language of the Eastern Slavs is difficult to say. Accordingly, it is difficult to say to what extent the introduction of Soavian church writing reformed (and whether it reformed at all) the Old Russian language. Well, to say that the Solun brothers made the Russian language this way and that way is not factually correct - they didn’t do anything with the Russian language, they worked with the Slavic language, in their times the Russian language, apparently, did not yet exist
          1. 0
            17 November 2023 01: 17
            Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
            Church Slavonic is essentially a South Slavic language. .. it is difficult to say to what extent the introduction of Soavian church writing reformed (and whether it reformed at all) the Old Russian language. Well, to say that the Solun brothers made the Russian language this and that is not factually correct - they didn’t do anything with the Russian language, they worked with the Slavic language, in their times, the Russian language, apparently, did not yet exist

            Truly stop, stop spreading this frankly subversive Svidomo nonsense! Before 1601, such a leftist concept as “Slavs” did not exist anywhere at all, and in Rus' this term appeared only in 1701. They write that it comes from the Latin “sclaveni”, which means “slave” in their dialects, that is, whatever one may say, this term, by definition, is offensive. For the first time, the translation of the Bible into this newly minted Church Slavonic language was carried out with difficulty only in 1890 due to the fact that this language had also been created recently and no one really knew it yet, everyone here used the Russian language, just like everywhere else in the world, often in dialects, for example, the Little Russian dialect. As for the Russian language, its distribution is really extensive, for example, words from the root words of the Russian language are found even among the indigenous Indian languages ​​in the Amazon prairies, although the division of these peoples occurred tens of thousands of years ago and during this time the ancestors of these same Indians managed to move from Siberia to distant South America! But the creation of the so-called “Slavic languages” is most often attributed to the beginning of the XNUMXth century or a little earlier. Make a list for yourself - in which specific years which of the “Slavic languages” were created and adopted for use by the mass population, for example, a completely new “Ukrainian language”, as it is being created by the enemies of Rus' to this day and without ceasing in their openly sabotage process.
            1. 0
              17 November 2023 17: 24
              I don’t comment on outright nonsense.
  37. -1
    13 November 2023 08: 17
    It is difficult to say whether the Author is right or not, because he does not provide arguments to support his words.

    Of course, Karamzin could be wrong in his “History...”. But as long as there is no new Karamzin, there will be no other history of Russia.
  38. +3
    13 November 2023 08: 20
    Quote: Timofey Charuta
    And what is considered “reliable documented facts”?


    Cross-checked primary sources and excavation results.

    Based on these data, the story becomes less colorful, less complete, but more reliable.
  39. 0
    13 November 2023 09: 38
    I strongly disagree with the article.
    Ukrainians, under the ethnonym Little Russians, existed even under the Russian Empire, no one invented them - they themselves arose from East Slavic tribes, as a result of centuries of occupation by invaders from other countries.

    Ukraine emerged as a result of the collapse of the Russian Empire in 1919, when there was no sign of Bolsheviks in the country. The fact that Ukraine existed as the Ukrainian SSR is not the fault of the Bolsheviks - because otherwise it simply would not have been possible to restore the integrity of the country, and today the Russian Federation consists of dozens of republics, and making a unitary country from the fragments of the Republic of Ingushetia was not at all realistic at that time.
    1. +1
      14 November 2023 12: 22
      Quote: Alt22
      I strongly disagree with the article.
      Ukrainians, under the ethnonym Little Russians, existed during the Russian Empire, no one invented them - arose themselves from East Slavic tribes,

      Do you even understand what you wrote here? By themselves, only the birds sing, and nations are artificially created by foreigners for very, very big money, since this term is frankly not of Russian-speaking origin. And the “Little Russians” also called themselves that, or some Greeks artificially divided them with this term united people and not at all some clearly left-wing “nation”; it’s even etymologically that the foreign origin of this also left-wing term is clearly visible!
      But by the way, the term Great Russia is still more similar to Russian-language origin, let us remember similar names, starting even with Great Britain, Veliky Novgorod, Velikiye Luki and even Veliky Ustyug, etc.: all these names mean, first of all, northern origin in confirmation of this Examples of these provisions include Nizhny Novgorod, Lower Saxony and Brittany. There are many examples to be found here...
  40. +1
    13 November 2023 09: 52
    [quote=Andrey from Chelyabinsk]Well, why? Those who study history professionally know very well that the invasion took place, that many Russian cities were burned, some of which were not restored. After this, a period of failure of crafts began, when in Rus' the production of many things was lost or greatly simplified. All this is archaeology.
    Actually, the official version has been fundamentally confirmed, but its criticism...
    ----------------------------------------

    Well-lived “historians” will confirm something else. And here are the questions: who and when proved that: where and when was the Mongol army formed? On what specific lands and how long did it take? Where are the traces of this huge camp at that time? How, what, and what supplies did you eat along the way? And an incredible amount of food was required. And the horses would not have found a blade of grass, given that the hypothetical war should have had at least three horses. Or horses! Whoever likes it. One with personal belongings. One under saddle. And one replacement. So then the army was mixed up. There must have been tens of thousands of these horses! And flocks of sheep or even camels for food. Where are the remnants and remains of this campaign? How did you go? There were no roads. A continuous thicket and windbreaks. About the trek along the southern route, through deserts and lands of extremely unfriendly tribes and peoples, even the “historians” don’t really try to weave in this nonsense! If anyone was able to get anywhere at that time, it was only by water, along rivers. And for tens of thousands of Mongols, this would be theoretically possible only on the ice of frozen rivers. (What would this “circus with horses” eat in the winter... This is a question more likely for science fiction writers than for “historian” writers.) Nothing more. I repeat, there were no roads. Moreover, even from Mongolia itself. Genetic traces, after 300 years the yoke should have been “through the roof”! But there are none. There is no haplogroup in our Russian genes, from alien conquerors! And so on, on, on... Conclusion! But a normal and sane person can easily draw a conclusion. And who is strongly against it, please ask the questions above. I'd like to hear the answers. Exactly on them. With facts in hand. And not abstract discussions about the sore “Mongol”, but from the 19th century, apparently for greater reliability, the “Mongol-Tatar” invasion, and the 300-year yoke.
    1. -3
      13 November 2023 11: 13
      Quote: Kruglov
      facts at hand. And not abstract discussions about the sore, “Mongolian”, but from the 19th century, apparently for greater reliability, "Mongol-Tatar" invasion, and 300 year old yoke.

      It would be good here and in the end it will be determined what it was in the end: or invasion or all the same "yoke". I think that the answer lies on the surface and, as a rule, in this case it is simply not very noticeable, namely: there are too few and not enough facts to indicate the presence of an invasion, but with the “yoke” it is simpler here - the term is Latin, and the Latin language is not eastern in origin, but definitely western, even extremely western, it looks like it’s from Spain itself. So the version is that the Latin-speaking people (possibly the Vatican) organized this whole riot in purely economic self-interest to plunder the lands they had newly conquered under the guise of introducing a new religion for these places. Hence the massive construction of fortress-monasteries, which in those days essentially protected foreign robbers from the local robbed population. And many people are already talking about this.
    2. +1
      13 November 2023 20: 11
      And here are the questions:

      And I repeat once again - in the 18th century, the Ural Kalmyk-Torguts as a whole people migrated to Dzungaria. We went out into the very cold. The campaign is documented by Russian and Chinese sources, not counting Kalmyk and Kazakh legends. He wasn't there either? Where did they get food for the horses in winter, under the snow? Where did you get the roads? No Mongolian haplogroups you say? So there are Turkic ones. The Mongol army was mainly Turkic. “through deserts and lands of extremely unfriendly tribes and peoples” - but there’s no way to read it at all? Where did they recruit these Turks? How lazy people have gone - they disdain to read historical books, charlatans and swindlers from history - with a bang!
  41. +1
    13 November 2023 09: 58
    The author's problem is that he is trying to open the eyes of a patriotic audience to the fact that their story is fake...
    And it’s true, history has been rewritten, is being rewritten and will be rewritten constantly, to please the ruling class.
    But an attempt to explain on this forum is guaranteed to run into hate and aggression, since you are trying to destroy the basis of their worldview, what they fanatically believe in and cannot be doubted.
    And it’s pointless to try to open someone’s eyes, because a smart person will understand everything himself, but others have no use for this knowledge.
    So calm down, turn on the movie “Ideocracy” and see what kind of society we live in... because that happy future has already arrived...
    1. 0
      13 November 2023 10: 53
      Quote: Kruglov
      facts at hand. And not abstract discussions about the sore, “Mongolian”, but from the 19th century, apparently for greater reliability, "Mongol-Tatar" invasion, and 300 year old yoke.

      It would be good here and in the end it will be determined what it was in the end: or invasion or all the same "yoke". I think that the answer lies on the surface and, as a rule, in this case it is simply not very noticeable, namely: there are too few and not enough facts to indicate the presence of an invasion, but with the “yoke” it is simpler here - the term is Latin, and the Latin language is not eastern in origin, but definitely western, even extremely western, it looks like it’s from Spain itself. So the version is that the Latin-speaking people (possibly the Vatican) organized this whole riot in purely economic self-interest to plunder the lands they had newly conquered under the guise of introducing a new religion for these places. Hence the massive construction of fortress-monasteries, which in those days essentially protected foreign robbers from the local robbed population. And many people are already talking about this.
    2. +1
      13 November 2023 14: 11
      Quote: seos
      But an attempt to explain on this forum is guaranteed to run into hate and aggression, since you are trying to destroy the basis of their worldview, what they fanatically believe in and cannot be doubted.
      It has been clearly noted that people cannot stand it when someone refutes the myths that form the foundations of their historical worldview.
      I have been convinced of this myself many times and hope to be convinced again. smile
    3. +1
      13 November 2023 20: 45
      Let's assume that the article simply asks you to think and read, read and think.
  42. 0
    13 November 2023 11: 33
    I specifically registered on the site to write a comment. The author of the post is not a historian, because... he does not understand that historical science is in development and Nikolai Mikhailovich did not have a significant amount of knowledge that we have. Today's learned historians perceive the work as nothing more than a stage in the development of the discipline, rather than actual scientific work. Of course, I read History about 20 years ago, but I don’t remember Nikolai Mikhailovich describing the Slavs as covered with wool and being taken from the trees by the Varangians. Modern research provides information that the Scandinavians, of course, were not the basis of development, but took a significant part in the cultural, social and political development of the Eastern Slavs. The author’s assessments of a number of events and pearls like the “Vendals-Vandals” and direct inheritance from the Scythians obviously indicate a low level of knowledge of history or a high level of knowledge of history, ed. Fomenko, which is the same thing. Should a statesman be accused of being politically biased? Soviet historical science was politicized, and today, unfortunately, we are also heading towards this. Nikolai Mikhailovich sifted through a mountain of sources and wrote, at that time, the most remarkable work on the history of the Country, and such attacks as in the fable cannot in any way detract from his merits.
  43. 0
    13 November 2023 11: 44
    Quote: venaya
    Belarusian state the formation of neither the Belarusian ethnic group nor, naturally, a separate Belarusian language simply did not exist before

    Let's be less categorical! It’s strange that you are not aware of the tsarist renaming in the first half of the 19th century, after another uprising against the “Muscovites”, Lithuanians (Litvins) into Belarusians. That is, it was not the Jamoits and Aukshtaits who were expelled from Moscow in 1612 (the day of unity!), but the current Belarusians and Poles! Those who did not want to call themselves Belarusians were called tuteish. And Zhmudz in the same 19th became Lietuva and appropriated the Lithuanian history of the Belarusians, because The new “Lithuanians” had their own national aristocracy growing up, while the old ones were either destroyed in uprisings, scattered around the world, or for the most part were Polonized, as they are now Russified...
    https://belhistory.com/forum/gistoryja-belarusi/predki-mnogikh-belorusov-byli-litvinami
  44. 0
    13 November 2023 13: 48
    This is what a “hot topic” topic is, judging by the comments. To understand the truth, you can turn to the genetic analysis of the Rurikovichs, which shows their Norman origin. The latest DNA study of the son of Alexander Nevsky.
    About the Tatar-Mongol (the word Tatars here means multi-tribal Mongols) invasion, we can say that if it had not happened, there would not have been a great legacy in language, culture, monetary relations, etc. The Yamskaya post office also arose thanks to them.
    Of course, Karamzin was wrong about something, but that’s not true about everything.
    1. +2
      13 November 2023 14: 08
      To understand the truth, you can turn to the genetic analysis of the Rurikovichs, which shows their Norman origin.
      This study only shows that there are many people in the world who have no idea what scientific research is.
  45. 0
    13 November 2023 14: 06
    Therefore, study the works of those giants and titans who went against the “general party line” and created the true history of Russia: Lomonosov, Tatishchev, Volansky, Klassen,
    the author forgot about D.I. Ilovaisky and E.P. Savelyeva
    1. -1
      13 November 2023 20: 18
      Better than Fomenko, Nosovsky, Chudinov and other clowns.
      Lomonosov, Tatishchev, Ilovaisky are, of course, very respected people, as is N.M. Karamzin, but in order to study their works of two or three hundred years ago, you must first study modern historians, and more than one, otherwise the result will not be knowledge, but cacophony. Only this way and no other way.
      1. 0
        14 November 2023 14: 14
        Ilovaisky are, of course, very respected people, as is N.M. Karamzin, but in order to study their works of two or three hundred years ago, you must first study modern historians,
        I won’t say anything about Karamzin, but having studied his works about Ilovaisky, I think that the man was very deeply immersed in the subject he was studying and is a HIGHLY SPECIALIZED historian on the issue of the origin of the first Russian princes.
        Historians of the Soviet and post-Soviet periods who followed him, at best, used the same primary sources as he did, and at worst, they used ready-made conclusions of other historians in their works
        1. 0
          17 November 2023 17: 31
          So no one argues about his integrity. But most of his views on the history of Rus' are frankly outdated. Still, more than a century has passed. If he lived in our time, and knew what we know, he would probably write something different.
  46. -1
    13 November 2023 15: 02
    Quote: venaya
    It would be good here and in the end it will be determined what it was in the end: either an invasion or still a “yoke”.


    The invasion that led to the yoke :)

    As a result of the military defeat, the Russian principalities received restrictions on their sovereignty. It was forbidden to fight with each other without permission (ban on independent foreign policy), appointments to reign had to be confirmed with the khan (control of the supreme power), and tribute had to be paid.

    The conquerors did not live among the conquered, did not mix with them, did not govern internal laws and customs, did not force them to learn their language - they did not need anything other than tribute.
    1. -1
      14 November 2023 16: 13
      Quote: S.Z.
      The conquerors did not live among the conquered, did not mix with them, did not govern internal laws and customs, did not force them to learn their language - they did not need anything other than tribute.

      Well, of course... In order to live among the conquered and at the same time stay alive, there was a need to build defensive structures in the form of fortresses-monasteries and attract partly local residents in the form of PMCs for their protection, and to impose their religion on the stability of this state of affairs. -ideology and for simplification in its own language. If in the west this language turned out to be Latin, then in our east it was already Greek, and in the middle another language was additionally created, which we call German, although perhaps on the basis of Gothic. So, to collect tribute in the form of a 10% tax on everything and absolutely everything, it was necessary to hire the then PMC in the form of princely squads, often hired from afar. This is how doormen were hired in England and they still serve today in all hotels, and the Vatican itself also uses the Swiss for its security. And as for the language: look, for the first time, the Bible was translated into almost Russian under the new name “Church Slavic” only in 1890! Don't believe me? So check it out.
  47. -1
    13 November 2023 16: 03
    If you follow the truth, then the political dynastic power of the Rurikovichs was founded by King Rurik, whose Varangian detachment was located in the ancient settlement of Ladoga (Old Ladoga). He ensured the safety of the inhabitants of Scandinavia, Scandinavian colonists, and merchants working on the then busy route from the Varangians to the Greeks. With his role strengthening, he was called to reign in Novgorod (Veliky Novgorod)
    1. 0
      14 November 2023 14: 22
      If you follow the truth, then the political dynastic power of the Rurikovichs was founded by King Rurik
      this statement has exactly the same evidentiary force as the statement that Rurik was a Scandinavian.
      For example, Ilovaisky poses the question much simpler: is Rurik a historical person, or is he a fictitious person?
      The totality of DOCUMENTARY information (and other evidence) requires the conclusion that this person is fictitious.
      Simply put, if we resolve the issue of the historicity of Rurik in the form “What nationality was Rurik and where did he come from?”, then this is equivalent to starting the path to a goal moving along a road that will definitely not lead to it.
  48. +2
    13 November 2023 16: 55
    Russian history has never been written objectively. In any case, the scribe brings his own subjective vision of events. As they say, history is written by the winners! After many years, the facts set out in history are always reinterpreted by descendants and a new layer of “historical” events is written. Everything is subjective!
    1. +1
      14 November 2023 14: 24
      Russian history has never been written objectively.
      Plus
      In our country, history has always been viewed as an element of propaganda, and therefore has always been adjusted to suit the interests of the ruling elite.
      And it goes on
      1. 0
        17 November 2023 07: 03
        It's like this everywhere - history is written by the winners
  49. +1
    13 November 2023 17: 30
    Quote: INSIGNIS_2
    If you follow the truth, then the political dynastic power of the Rurikovichs was founded by King Rurik, whose Varangian detachment was located in the ancient settlement of Ladoga (Old Ladoga).


    This is the most common and probable theory, which, however, still does not have direct evidence.
    1. -1
      13 November 2023 20: 21
      There is a lot of evidence, although questions remain. All other theories are about nothing at all.
  50. +2
    13 November 2023 20: 40
    Karamzinsky nonsense is now supported by workers of many created such as “Historical Reserves.” The leader is the Izborsk Museum in the Pskov region. Here they came up with the idea of ​​chasing tourists around our cemetery... They’re having so much fun, I don’t understand! Museum workers advocate for the preservation of identity and in fact are only engaged in extorting a pretty penny from tourists for the air, which they diligently spoil.
  51. 0
    13 November 2023 20: 42
    Quote: INSIGNIS_2
    If you follow the truth, then the political dynastic power of the Rurikovichs was founded by King Rurik, whose Varangian detachment was located in the ancient settlement of Ladoga (Old Ladoga). He ensured the safety of the inhabitants of Scandinavia, Scandinavian colonists, and merchants working on the then busy route from the Varangians to the Greeks. With his role strengthening, he was called to reign in Novgorod (Veliky Novgorod)

    Called" in the semantics of what tense are you voicing?
  52. +1
    13 November 2023 20: 43
    Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
    Better than Fomenko, Nosovsky, Chudinov and other clowns.
    Lomonosov, Tatishchev, Ilovaisky are, of course, very respected people, as is N.M. Karamzin, but in order to study their works of two or three hundred years ago, you must first study modern historians, and more than one, otherwise the result will not be knowledge, but cacophony. Only this way and no other way.

    It wouldn’t be a bad idea to study the works of real diggers and linguists.
  53. +2
    13 November 2023 21: 19
    Another proof that history is not a science, but a set of interpretations of facts in favor of politicians.
  54. 0
    13 November 2023 21: 22
    The beginning of another upheaval of the foundations? Once again, going towards unity with the West, with the world of lies and profit, receiving a beating, we are looking for salvation in our roots? How long?
    1. -2
      14 November 2023 02: 25
      looking for salvation in our roots?

      What are “your roots” - do you want to answer? Paganism? - it seems to have nothing in common with modern Russia. Byzantine Christianity? Is it something that has nothing to do with the world of lies and profit? Or will we take away Genghis Khan from the Mongols, and the Sumerians and the digging of the Black Sea from the Ukrainians? If someone shouts about roots and bonds, then they are almost always swindlers and deceivers.
  55. 0
    14 November 2023 11: 20
    Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
    There is a lot of evidence, although questions remain. All other theories are about nothing at all.

    Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
    There is a lot of evidence, although questions remain. All other theories are about nothing at all.


    Apparently, you mean evidence, not evidence. After the evidence, there are no questions left.
    Actually, I said that the Norman theory is the most plausible, but not proven.
    By the way, I don’t see anything humiliating for us in it. It’s worth looking at the history of Britain; they do not deny the Roman, Saxon, or Norman conquests, but they also do not have complexes.
    The size of our country should have saved us from complexes, but no...
  56. 0
    14 November 2023 11: 23
    Quote: Pavel57
    Another proof that history is not a science, but a set of interpretations of facts in favor of politicians.


    History is just a science, but some people think that they can understand it without going through training.
  57. The comment was deleted.
  58. +1
    14 November 2023 13: 45
    Quote: venaya
    By themselves, only the birds sing, and nations are artificially created by foreigners for very, very big money


    And who paid, for example, for the creation of the British, French, Germans, Koreans, Chinese, ancient Romans, Japanese?..
    1. -3
      14 November 2023 15: 41
      Quote: Kmon
      who paid, for example, for the creation of the British, French, Germans, Koreans, Chinese, ancient Romans, Japanese?..

      The Britons were, as it were, the indigenous inhabitants of the British Isles and settled on the continent in the region of the city with the ancient Russian name Brest, Brittany is called and the British were invented later by the British who seized control of these islands and much later they even changed their language, not only to their own but also mixed with Saxon dialects Ask about that very interestingly. Well, those Britons who remained on the continent today are considered French and in the 1882th century they were forced to speak French. Remember General De Gaulle, he was the leader of the Gallic Party, it’s remarkable, isn’t it? Now there are six constituent peoples from which the French were created, including the above-mentioned Britons. Who created the French? Most likely, some Franks are occupiers of that very Gaul and they managed to introduce their language to these peoples recently; mass teaching of French began, as I understand it, in 300, you can clarify this yourself. This is how the French nation was slowly created. Further, the “Germans” were clearly truly created by the great Martin Luther himself; he released a translation of the Bible into the German language he created, apparently a version of his native Gothic language. Without a mandatory visit to the Lutheran church, the Germans could easily die of hunger; they could not find work for non-Protestants. As for the Chinese, the story is more complicated, at least to the north of the Great Wall of China and to the south of it there live very different peoples, but in general in the Chinese empire there are about XNUMX of these people, it’s very difficult to understand here. Koreans are more homogeneous and are the result of numerous wars. The Japanese arrived on the islands recently, but due to the use of a highly productive rice crop in terms of productivity, they evicted the indigenous people called the Ainu, very hairy but now almost extinct, in any case, even when Hokaido belonged to the Russian Empire in the time of Catherine, there were no Japanese there at all, and then wars, wars and Ainu disappeared almost completely. As for the ancient Romans... - Moscow was also the third Rome, so the Romans can be understood as anyone. I hope that I was able to answer all your questions, what is not clear, I will try to add if I can.
      By the way, the Little Russians were invented by the Greeks, the Ukrainians were invented by the Polish gentlemen, and about the Belarusians they write that these were inventions of specialists from Austria-Hungary, we need to clarify.
  59. The comment was deleted.
  60. 0
    14 November 2023 15: 42
    Quote: Lewww
    Set of DOCUMENTARY information
    You can see at least one documentary mixing?
  61. 0
    14 November 2023 15: 44
    Quote: S.Z.
    History is just science
    How can history be a science if the descriptive discipline of history does not meet at least two basic scientific criteria?

    History is exactly the same “science” as Political Science, Sociology, Scientology, Dianetics...
  62. -1
    14 November 2023 15: 49
    Quote: Pavel57
    Another proof that history is not a science, but a set of interpretations of facts in favor of politicians.
    And not even a set of interpretations facts, and, in relation to the Most Ancient, Ancient, significant part of the history of the Middle Ages, and also in some places in relation to even New and Contemporary History, at best a set of interpretations versions, in relation to which most historians have agreed to consider them (versions) as “historical facts”.
    Even the concept of “historical fact” was introduced.
    That is, one thing is simple fact, and a completely different matter "historical fact". hi
  63. 0
    14 November 2023 17: 26
    Quote: Seal
    Is it possible to see at least one documentary information?

    Can.
  64. 0
    14 November 2023 17: 29
    Quote: Seal
    How can history be a science if the descriptive discipline of history does not meet at least two basic scientific criteria?

    This is not true, your list is out of place.
  65. 0
    14 November 2023 17: 32
    Quote: Seal
    at best, a set of version interpretations,


    :) Have you read any historical or scientific works on this topic? Well, are there monographs, for example, of some scientists? They usually point to a fact, and then give several versions with interpretation, that is, facts are one thing, and interpretations are another.
  66. The comment was deleted.
  67. 0
    15 November 2023 17: 40
    There is a rare book by V. Chivilikhin “Memory”, which sets out the history of Russia without political bias. Historians who work on order always write profitable history for customers. An example of how far this “intelligentsia” can go is the history of the “great Ukrainians.” With 140 thousand years of ukrov, dug by the Black Sea, ancient Egypt, Greece, etc.
  68. 0
    16 November 2023 06: 55
    Written in order to convince readers that the best historian of all times and peoples is Medinsky.
  69. +1
    17 November 2023 07: 02
    Just somewhere you can get acquainted with the works of "Lomonosov, Tatishchev, Volansky, Klassen, Chertkov, Shishkov, Lukashevich, Grinevich, Rybakov, Petukhov and many others."
  70. 0
    17 November 2023 22: 21
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Well why? Those who study history professionally know very well that the invasion took place, that many Russian cities were burned, some of which were not restored

    So the Armenians and Bulgarians had an invasion = they became the “invading” race, that is, blacks. Chechens also remember that Chechens generally had red hair, just like Armenians and Bulgarians, and ALL of them!!
  71. The comment was deleted.
  72. 0
    19 November 2023 10: 56
    Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
    What is this opus about? Why reproach Karamzin after so many centuries? And modern historians cannot understand either the Norman theory or the atrocities of Tsar Ivan, and what complaints can there be against a historiographer of the early 19th century? Was the Westerner and Freemason favored by the authorities and became a supporter of autocracy? So, even today we cannot be surprised by such metamorphoses. The article is in the trash!

    1. To reproach is not to reproach the question, but to deal with its lies is necessary!
    2. Scientists have dealt with the false Norman history introduced by the burghers and the non-existent atrocities of Ivan Vasilyevich. Those scientists who did not believe the “revelations” of the foreign agent Kurbsky, “friends” of Rus' like Posevin, etc.
    3. I agree about being favored by the authorities, but I’m surprised about adherence to autocracy.
    1. -1
      19 November 2023 17: 23
      but it is necessary to deal with his lies!

      The obvious, unconcealed and blatant lies of the author of the article need to be dealt with.
      The false Norman history introduced by the burghers...scientists have figured it out.

      This is why modern historians for the most part adhere to Normanism, while marginalized people and illiterate pseudo-patriots oppose it?
      non-existent atrocities of Ivan Vasilyevich

      How do you know that they don’t exist? This is a dark question.

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