Expedition to the ancestors. Migration “there” and migration “back”

75
Expedition to the ancestors. Migration “there” and migration “back”
Borodino treasure in the State Historical Museum in Moscow


…Amon gave birth to Josiah;
Josiah begat Joachim;
Joachim begat Jehoiachin and his brothers,
before moving to Babylon.

Matthew's Gospel, 1: 11

Migrants and migrations. In the previous material devoted to the Yamnaya culture, horses and chariots, it was said that “the ancient Yamnayas boarded their chariots and rode to the East.” And yes, they took off, and even more than that, they gave rise to the so-called Andronovo culture, which developed on the basis of the Yamnaya.



And again - yes, chariots with solid wheels were known to the peoples of the Indus Valley and Mesopotamia long before the appearance of chariots with spokes, which appeared precisely in the zone of the Eurasian steppes.

It is interesting that an exact copy of such a chariot was made (I think that information about who, when and what academic degree the organizer had would be superfluous in this case, although if it is important to someone, you can find it) strength tests. Moreover, in the steppe region (Agapovsky district of the Chelyabinsk region) and exactly where its remains were found - on a hilly plain, with alternating forest and steppe, that is, in places for traveling on a chariot not very convenient.

And here's what it turned out: wooden wheels with spokes are able to withstand long-term loads when moving over rough terrain - this is the first thing.

And secondly, we managed to accelerate the sample to 40 km per hour! That is, 4 years ago people could already move at such a record speed for that time.


Image of a chariot in the Elangash tract, Altai Mountains. V. D. Kubarev, A. I. Solovyov

It is interesting that the historian A.I. Solovyov in his 2003 monograph “Weapon и доспехи. Сибирское Armament: от каменного века до Средневековья» тоже подробно разобрал устройство колесницы, принадлежавшей андроновцам, и даже привел её реконструированное изображение.

It was made on the basis of finds in burials, from which it is clear that their platforms had a square or rectangular shape, and the wheel axle on the right side was 10–15 centimeters longer than on the left.

The body was open at the back, but it had a handrail at the front, giving a total height of about 90 cm, which was quite comfortable for men of average height. The height from the ground was 140 cm, the length with drawbar was 310 cm, with a track width of about 125–145 cm.


Axes of the Andronovo culture. State Historical Museum, Moscow


Woman of Andronovo culture. Reconstruction

Box dimensions – 90x120 cm or 100x100 cm, wheels with a diameter of 80–90 cm.

The design of the wheels was very interesting: their rim was assembled from separate wooden beams, which were bent (!) and attached to the hub on 11 spokes. At the same time, they were also covered with leather or strips of birch bark. Such a chariot dating back to the XNUMXth–XNUMXth centuries. to the village was found in the Sintashta burial ground, in the Southern Trans-Urals.

By the way: Sintashta is also a culture, and it is believed that it even preceded Andronovo! And if the Sintashta people rode chariots, then the Andronovo people – even more so. By the way, studies of their fossil DNA have revealed the Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a and mitochondrial haplogroups such as J1, J2, N1 and U2.

The Andronovo people turned out to be close in genetics to the Sintashta people: in all 10 discovered representatives of this culture from the territory of the Krasnoyarsk Territory, the Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a1-M17 and mitochondrial haplogroups U, Z, T, H, K and HV were found.

Andronovo men had blond hair and blue eyes. That is, Southern Siberia at that time was characterized by a Caucasian population, and everything indicates that it gradually migrated from west to east!


Territory of settlement of Andronovo residents

However, here's what's interesting.

On the one hand, we are seeing migration to the east, but on the other... exactly the same migration to the west, that is, in the opposite direction, but taking place somewhat to the north. That is, there were carriers of a certain culture, which we can trace through burials; they lived in the north of Siberia, in its forest zone, and left their monuments over a vast territory.

We will be talking, as many have probably already guessed, about the Seima and Turbino people, and today many people no longer talk about the “Seima-Turbino culture”, preferring the term “Seima-Turbino intercultural (transcultural) phenomenon.” The reason is... in the coverage of a large region by its representatives, where other archaeological cultures are found, but in the end they remained, and the Seima-Turbino people disappeared to an unknown location, as if they had dissolved in time and space.


Map with the location of the largest burial grounds of the Seima-Turbino people. Rice. A. Shepsa

They opened them a long time ago. In 1912, an infantry regiment dug trenches during exercises near the Seima station in the Nizhny Novgorod province. They dug and dug and found green bronze objects. The commander turned out to be competent: not only did he report the find, he also described it, identifying four groups of objects. And then in the same year, but 3 km from the Seimas, they found the famous Borodino treasure already in Bessarabia.

In the 50s, the Turbinsky burial ground and a burial ground on Shustovaya Mountain in Siberia were excavated, and then another one was found near the village of Rostovka near Omsk on the banks of the Irtysh and a fifth burial ground was found. The most mysterious thing is that only burial grounds are found from the Seima-Turbino people. Although very rich. In all cases these were burial grounds, but not settlements, although they were very rich in terms of burial goods. That is, the people of this culture did not spare bronze items for their deceased.


Celts of the Seima-Turbino people. State Historical Museum

It has been noted that all the main Seima-Turbino burial grounds are located near large rivers, usually closer to the mouths. Moreover, all burials belong exclusively to soldiers. There are no burials of either women or children. There are no mounds above them, and bronze weapons, apparently, were simply stuck into the bottom or walls of the grave.

Many burial grounds were clearly destroyed, but it’s somehow strange: the skulls and bones in them were broken, but for some reason they themselves were not looted! Although there was plenty of bronze items in them. The settlements of the Seima-Turbino people, as well as their ceramics, have not yet been discovered. That’s why they now talk about phenomenon, but not about culture...

It is interesting that some of their products are found even in Finland and Estonia, that is, their technology of bronze products has spread very widely. Almost all of Northern Eurasia, but the people themselves are not there. We found a skull suitable for research from the Satyga XVI burial ground on the northern shore of Lake Satyginsky Tuman near the former village of Satyga and the village of Yagodny (Kondinsky district of the Khanty-Mansiysk Autonomous Okrug), and with its help we determined the Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a1a1b2a2-Z2122, but this is still practically All.


Monuments of the Seima-Turbino type, turn of the XNUMXrd–XNUMXnd millennium BC. e. Turbino burial ground. Spearheads; bronze, silver. Perm region. State Historical Museum, Moscow

“According to experts in ancient metallurgy, these mysterious tribes came from somewhere in the Rudny Altai region and made an unprecedented campaign to the West, having a huge impact on the fate of the peoples of Northern Eurasia. Their path, marked for us by rare burial grounds and random finds of magnificent bronze weapons, lay between the pegs and lakes of forest-steppe Siberia, through the gloomy wilds of the dense taiga, through the mountain ranges of the Urals to the forest plains of Eastern Europe. These warrior-wanderers were distinguished by their melee weapons, in which new technologies of bronze casting were displayed with all their brilliance.”

- A.I. Soloviev.

Findings of Seima-Turbino artifacts in China (in the province of Xinjiang) gave rise to a number of experts to say that the main route along which the bearers of this tradition moved to the north was along the Irtysh. The largest researcher of the Seima-Turbino cultural phenomenon E.N. Chernykh also stated that it may well be that the source region for the formation of the Seima-Turbino phenomenon was precisely Xinjiang. That is, the territory of the modern Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region in China and from the Mongolian Altai up to the Eastern Tien Shan, with the inclusion of a number of other territories: in total up to 1,5–1,76 million square meters. km.


Silver tips of the Seima-Turbine spears. State Historical Museum, Moscow

Well, then they “went north”, walked west along the valleys, along the hills, and so they came out onto the East European Plain to the Baltic Sea itself.

An interesting feature of the Seima-Turbino bronzes is the high percentage of arsenic they contain. That is, these are arsenic bronzes, which are durable, malleable, and pour well into molds, but the production of which does not add health to the foundry workers at all. Moreover, spectrographic analysis shows that the arsenic in them, as a rule, is local, but the tin they contain... is from the Sayan Mountains!

Well, did they carry a supply of it with them, get it through trade through the mountains and forests, or melt down old products? But then a lot of tin was wasted, and maybe that’s why it was replaced with arsenic? Or was it for the same reason that many of their spearheads were cast from silver? Questions, questions, questions...


Bronze figurine of an idol, also belonging to the Seima-Turbino culture. State Historical Museum, Moscow


Galich treasure. Kostroma province, Galich district, village of Turovskoye. The figurine is cast from red copper, which has very poor fluidity and does not fill the mold well. However, with what high quality this idol is cast! Height 14 cm. State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg

I also came across an opinion on the Internet that the Seima-Turbino residents were simply... skilled robbers. That’s why they hid in the forests, from where they raided the local residents they encountered along the way. They did not have their own women, but took the first ones that came to hand, and therefore did not bury them in a dignified manner after they gave birth and raised new warriors. That is why they disappeared without a trace: once again they were unlucky with women - this is where the end of their clan and tribe came.

It should be emphasized that this is nothing more than a hypothesis, moreover, it was not expressed by some master like E.N. Chernykh, but it exists.

Literature for additional reading:
Chernykh E. N. Cultures of nomads in the megastructure of the Eurasian world. M.: Languages ​​of Slavic Culture, 2013. T. 1. 369 p.
Chernykh E. N., Kuzminykh S. V. Ancient metallurgy of Northern Eurasia. M.: Nauka, 1989. 320 p.
Nefedkin Alexander Konstantinovich. War chariots in ancient Greece (XVI–I centuries BC) // Dissertation for the scientific degree of candidate historical Sci. – St. Petersburg: St. Petersburg State University, 1997.
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  1. +4
    1 November 2023 05: 09
    Thank you, I have never positioned the Andronovo culture cartographically, but it turns out that everything is “not far”, only 300-400 km to the south.
    Good day everyone, best regards Kote
    1. 0
      April 3 2024 15: 36
      By the way, on the map shown, the village of Borodino is shown incorrectly. In fact, it is located much further south - in the south of the Odessa region.
  2. +5
    1 November 2023 06: 38
    In 2015 there was an article:
    "Warriors of Seima and Turbino, or the Bronze "chain" through Eurasia"
    It was written by Shpakovsky in collaboration with Glab Koshkin.
    The article is more “strong” than this remake. True, data on the genetics of one skull was added to this article and that’s it.
    The photos in the original version are more colorful and there are more of them.
    1. +7
      1 November 2023 07: 14
      The most important thing that is not in the article is the dating of the Seima-Turbino culture.
      The author didn't even make a guess.
      And this question is very important. This culture is dated very widely by different researchers. Starting from the XNUMXnd century BC
      and earlier.
    2. 0
      1 November 2023 07: 26
      Colleague, Alexander, it’s called: “if you don’t like it, don’t eat it”
      1. +9
        1 November 2023 08: 36
        You can say it another way: “eat what they give!”
        Colleague. lol
    3. +2
      1 November 2023 07: 42
      Eight years have passed since Alexander. There are no others, and those are far away, so why not repeat it? But you might notice that the content of the cycle is completely different. And each part definitely relates to the others.
      1. +3
        2 November 2023 14: 49
        Question personally to the Author. hi There is a point in the article
        .....XVII --- XVI centuries. to p.

        Is this something--- “before the flood”??? If not, please clarify. If yes --- then I ask you to express yourself in understandable reference systems: “BC,” “BC.” And then you have to translate. In addition, the time of the so-called “The Flood”, as well as the “Creation of the World”, is defined differently by different religions! But science generally denies it.
        1. +1
          2 November 2023 18: 39
          Quote: Reptiloid
          This is something--- "before the flood"

          This means I was WRONG, and the proofreader and editor missed it. There should be B.C. And you could have guessed it yourself, but thanks for the click. It's a small thing, but nice.
          1. -1
            6 November 2023 16: 29
            Quote: kalibr
            ...... and the proofreader and editor LOOKED.......

            It's like it's the first time.
            клик

            recourse Yes, where are the times when there were Communist forum members --- Alexander Green, Bloodsucker, Sword Bearer, Doctor, there were disputes. hi
            1. +1
              8 November 2023 08: 11
              Quote: Reptiloid
              Yes, where are the times when there were Communist forum members --- Alexander Greene, Bloodsucker, Swordbearer, Doctor, there were disputes.

              There are no others, and those are far away. Remember, Dima, only those who outlive their opponents are right. For he can spit on their graves, but they cannot!
      2. 0
        4 November 2023 22: 08
        About the chariot test - it’s very interesting how many kilometers it covered. Since the cannon carriages, made for horse traction, fell apart from being hauled by a truck, that is, I have vague doubts that more than 100 meters traveled.
        Quote: kalibr
        Image of a chariot in the Elangash tract

        An interesting drawing style, like a parody of Egyptian “artistic drawing”; they loved such strange combinations of projections.
    4. +5
      1 November 2023 15: 08
      The photo in the original version is moreаlorite and there are more of them.
      Alexander, photo toоlorite, but what you wrote has a slightly different meaning.
      1. +8
        1 November 2023 15: 53
        In the morning, on the phone, well, let’s consider it a mistake according to Freud)))))))
  3. +1
    1 November 2023 07: 09
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, and the latest version is not without wit. At least it explains a lot
    1. +2
      1 November 2023 07: 37
      Quote from lisikat2
      At least it explains a lot

      Yes you are right. I liked her too.
    2. +4
      1 November 2023 11: 41
      the latest version is not without wit. At least it explains a lot

      It can be developed. Let's say these were not robbers, but Baskaks. The silver spearheads, not suitable for combat, have loops for something that could be a flag, a lanyard, indicating that the warrior belonged to the structure of tribute collectors or forwarders. They could greatly interfere with the lives of the locals, so they were buried, with all the evidence. Ends in the ground.
  4. +1
    1 November 2023 07: 15
    "40 km/h" is a good speed. In the city I drive at a speed of about 57k/h, and outside the city I add up to 65-70 km, and a Hyundai can go up to 120. My husband drives like this
    1. +1
      1 November 2023 07: 38
      Remember how Marty McFly and Doc Brown tested the wagon for speed in the 3rd film...
    2. +4
      1 November 2023 13: 50
      And you try, for example, to accelerate like that on a bicycle. Especially if not on the highway, but on a country road. The sensations will be completely different :). or skiing :).
  5. +1
    1 November 2023 09: 06
    Thank you very much for an interesting article, as always.

    There is an opinion not only about the “robbery” origin of this culture, but also that it never existed at all.

    For example, verbatim
    “The so-called “Andronovo cultural-historical community” is a historiographical myth.” Grigoriev S.A. "Archaeological justification for the Middle Eastern localization of the Indo-European ancestral home on the territory of Eurasia."

    I don’t know how much authority he has :) The dispute seems to be more about terminology, how to call what was dug up, without questioning the very fact of the existence of what was dug up.

    IMHO, when there are no written sources left, the field of guesswork is many times wider than the field of knowledge. Literacy is power.
    1. +2
      1 November 2023 16: 25
      Quote: S.Z.
      The dispute seems to be more about terminology, how to call what was dug up, without questioning the very fact of the existence of what was dug up.

      Exactly! What has been dug up cannot be buried back!
  6. 0
    1 November 2023 10: 14
    What about the fighting qualities of silver tips?
    And how difficult is it to manufacture? Vicki says that the melting point is 962 degrees, is it achievable under those conditions?
    1. 0
      1 November 2023 10: 48
      Vicki says that the melting point is 962 degrees, is it achievable under those conditions?

      Certainly. Charcoal and iron will melt.
    2. +3
      1 November 2023 10: 54
      But none.
      Purely burial material.
      There are no signs of use, the thickness of the products does not allow them to be used as weapons.
    3. +1
      1 November 2023 16: 26
      Well, if you did it, then it’s achievable.
  7. 0
    1 November 2023 12: 49
    Quote: AllBiBek
    But none.
    Purely burial material.
    There are no signs of use, the thickness of the products does not allow them to be used as weapons.

    Not necessarily funeral, but symbolic, for example. M.b. These are insignia, like horsetails. Silver (especially polished) is clearly visible from afar, and you can’t easily make a fake, unlike a ponytail. So it could serve as a “flashing light” so that irresponsible subjects would not launch something from the bushes, mistaking it for an ordinary caravan.
  8. +1
    1 November 2023 14: 28
    Quote from cpls22
    But none.
    Purely burial material.

    Well, maybe it can help against vampires and other ghouls... :)
  9. +3
    1 November 2023 14: 50
    The design of the wheels was very interesting: their rim was assembled from separate wooden beams, which were bent (!) and attached to the hub on 11 spokes.

    To be honest, I didn’t understand what surprised the author about the design of the wheel. Such a wheel is called a jamb, in contrast to a solid-rim one. Jamb wheels are still made today.
    1. +1
      1 November 2023 18: 26
      The strength of modern (and not so modern) wooden wheels is ensured by a metal rim, which fixes and compresses the entire structure. The Andronovites, presumably, did not have rims - how did their wheels not fall apart when driving over rough terrain at a speed of supposedly 40 km/h???
      The second question is the axle, is it really made of wood?
      1. +3
        1 November 2023 18: 50
        Quote: Roman Efremov
        The Andronovites, presumably, did not have rims - how did their wheels not fall apart when driving over rough terrain at a speed of supposedly 40 km/h???
        The second question is the axle, is it really made of wood?

        Wow! Exactly! This means how firmly it was necessary to connect and glue. However, hoof glue provides an exceptionally strong connection. You can judge by the finds of bows - the joints have been preserved to this day!
        And - yes - the axle is wooden!!!
  10. +5
    1 November 2023 14: 56
    Andronovo men had blond hair and blue eyes.
    here the author forgot to write in parentheses “trust me - I know” wink
    The design of the wheels was very interesting: their rim was assembled from separate wooden beams, which were bent (!) and attached to the hub on 11 spokes. At the same time, they were also covered with leather or strips of birch bark.
    It’s unlikely that they were pasted over - there’s no point in that
    1. +2
      1 November 2023 16: 28
      Quote: Lewww
      It’s unlikely that they were pasted over - there’s no point in that

      Something was preserved there, otherwise where would it come from in the description?
    2. +1
      1 November 2023 17: 28
      If the genome has been deciphered, then we can find out the color of hair and eyes
    3. +2
      1 November 2023 21: 24
      It makes sense: to protect the wheels. Otherwise, the wheels will soon be screwed up and then what.
      Pull yourself onto the cart and walk Arshsh?
  11. +3
    1 November 2023 15: 29
    What a characteristic! The Aryans went to the southeast, and the Tatars returned.
    But for some reason many historians and archaeologists do not want to accept a simple fact. During the onset of the Ice Age 25 thousand years ago, Neanderthals went south, and modern people (Homo Sapiens) returned. It would seem obvious, but not everyone agrees with this. Tropical women are so insidious that they won’t do anything to men.
    1. +2
      1 November 2023 16: 28
      Quote from Eugene Zaboy
      Tropical women are so insidious that they won’t do anything to men.

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    2. +3
      1 November 2023 17: 27
      25 thousand years ago, the Neanderthals had already been gone for 10 thousand years.
    3. +1
      1 November 2023 22: 20
      According to the latest data, early sapiens appeared earlier than classical Neanderthals. And the ice age did not begin 25 thousand years ago. And 25 thousand years ago, Neanderthals most likely no longer existed. So let's pass.
      1. +2
        1 November 2023 23: 47
        Quote: Cartalon
        25 thousand years ago, the Neanderthals had already been gone for 10 thousand years.




        What then were Neanderthals doing in Israel and Iran?
        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
        According to the latest data, early sapiens appeared earlier than classical Neanderthals. And the ice age did not begin 25 thousand years ago. And 25 thousand years ago, Neanderthals most likely no longer existed. So let's pass.


        Perhaps 25 thousand years ago they had already assimilated as a species, having lost their characteristic features, but what were they doing in Israel and Iran if they were not fleeing the glacier.

        The Neanderthals had plenty of reasons to go south, and they took advantage of them.



        As for the "classic Neanderthals". The term was invented and put into circulation in order to somehow save the hypothesis of man’s exit from Africa. In fact, this never happened. At best, the regions of hominid contact were the Mediterranean, Caucasus and further east.
        From contact zones, new forms spread to the south and north. Below is one of the proofs, very recent:


        12 million-year-old human ancestor, Pierolapithecus, brought to life
        Chrissy Sexton
        ByChrissy Sexton
        Earth.com staff writer
        The face of the ancient ape, Pierolapithecus catalaunicus, has been brought back to life, providing significant insights into the story of great ape and human evolution.

        The research project was conducted by scientists from the American Museum of Natural History, Brooklyn College, and the Catalan Institute of Paleontology Miquel Crusafont.

        The team has reconstructed the damaged but well-preserved skull of the remarkable species, which existed approximately 12 million years ago.


        Pierolapithecus catalaunicus
        Discovered in northeastern Spain and first described in 2004, Pierolapithecus catalaunicus belongs to a diverse group of now-extinct apes that inhabited Europe between 15 to 7 million years ago.


        The results indicate that Pierolapithecus represents one of the earliest representatives of the apes and humans.

        “An interesting result of the evolutionary modeling in the study is that the skull of Pierolapithecus is closer in shape and size to the ancestor from which modern apes and humans evolved,” study co-author Sergio Almesia said.


        More about Pierolapithecus
        As mentioned above, paleontologists unearthed the Pierolapithecus in a remarkable state of preservation. This was allowed for an extensive study of its physical characteristics. The findings, published in the journal “Science” in 2004, shook the scientific community
        1. 0
          2 November 2023 21: 09
          25 thousand years ago, the Neanderthals had already been gone for 10 thousand years.
          What then were Neanderthals doing in Israel and Iran?

          Are you struggling with reading comprehension? 25 thousand years ago there were no Neanderthals. Not in Israel, not in Iran, not even in Spain. Nowhere.
          but what were they doing in Israel and Iran if not fleeing the glacier. Neanderthals had plenty of reasons to go south, and they took advantage of them.

          They “walked” both south and east. If it weren’t for the glacier, they would “walk” to the north; if it weren’t for the Atlantic Ocean, they would “walk” to the west. Why this stream of consciousness?
          As for the "classic Neanderthals". The term was invented and put into circulation in order to somehow save the hypothesis of man’s exit from Africa. In fact, this never happened.

          You can think whatever you want. For the rest of the world, there are classic Neanderthals, and there are early (aka late Heidelbergers) with a very clearly visible morphological difference. Before preaching heresy with a pompous air, at least read something on the topic.
          in order to somehow save the hypothesis of man’s exit from Africa.

          The hypothesis of man leaving Africa does not need to be saved. It is generally accepted by archaeologists, morphologists, and geneticists. It is you who needs to be saved.
          The results indicate that Pierolapithecus represents one of the earliest representatives of the apes and humans.

          Pierolapithecus represents one of the earliest representatives of the great ape family, but not a human. 12 million years ago, anthropoids occupied a large region in Europe, Africa and Asia, and only God knows where our pre-pre-ancestors came from. But much later Sahelanthropus, Ardipithecus and Orrorin lived in Africa. If you find no less advanced contemporary apes in Europe, then we’ll talk.
          .
          1. +1
            3 November 2023 01: 16
            Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
            Are you struggling with reading comprehension? 25 thousand years ago there were no Neanderthals. Not in Israel, not in Iran, not even in Spain. Nowhere.


            Is this the only argument (25 thousand years)? This is exactly what confuses you. Actually, I did not question the official point of view that the Neanderthals disappeared about 40 thousand years ago.
            I asked a simple question. What did the Eurasian Neanderthals do in the territory of present-day Israel and Iran. Why did such advanced, highly developed and aggressive Homo Sapiens, who, in your opinion, defeated the Neanderthals in Europe, let these primitive ones go south?

            Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
            Pierolapithecus represents one of the earliest representatives of the great ape family, but not a human. 12 million years ago, anthropoids occupied a large region in Europe, Africa and Asia, and only God knows where our pre-pre-ancestors came from. But much later Sahelanthropus, Ardipithecus and Orrorin lived in Africa. If you find no less advanced contemporary apes in Europe, then we’ll talk.


            Are you really trying to compare this:


            Sahelanthropus tchadensis is an extinct species of the hominid dated to about 7 million years ago, during the Miocene epoch.



            Orrorin tugenensis is a postulated early species of Homininae, estimated at 6.1 to 5.7 million years ago and discovered in 2000. It is not known how Orrorin are related to modern humans.




            Ardipithecus is a genus of an extinct hominine that lived during the Late Miocene and Early Pliocene epochs in the Afar Depression, Ethiopia. Originally described as one of the earliest ancestors of humans after they diverged from the chimpanzees, the relation of this genus to human ancestors and whether it is a hominin is now a matter of debate.[1] Two fossil species are described in the literature: A. ramidus, which lived about 4.4 million years ago[2] during the early Pliocene, and A. kadabba, dated to approximately 5.6 million years ago


            With this:

            and do you think this is correct?

            Pierolapithecus catalaunica
            Discovered in northeastern Spain and first described in 2004, Pierolapithecus catalaunicus belonged to a diverse group of now-extinct apes that inhabited Europe 15–7 million years ago.

            They lived in Europe at least 8-10 million years earlier than these more primitive representatives of the apes.
            Once again I draw your attention to the conclusion:
            “An interesting result of the evolutionary modeling in the study is that the skull of Pierolapithecus is closer in shape and size to the ancestor from which modern apes and humans evolved,” study co-author Sergio Almesia said.

            "On the other hand, gibbons and siamangs ("small apes") appear to have evolved secondary to size reduction."

            The most important. This work was published in 2004. It, like many others, notes:
            Pierolapithecus catalaunicus belonged to a diverse group of now-extinct apes that inhabited Europe 15–7 million years ago.

            It talks about the wide variety of great apes that inhabited Europe.
            In Europe, primitive people more than 3 million years ago hunted mammoths in an organized manner, with spears, and used fire. You refer to the forms of apes that, even before Pierolapithecus catalaunicus, are like before the moon. They are closer to modern forms of apes than to humans, and certainly have nothing in common with the skull of Homo Sapiens. Or you need immense imagination to discover it. At the same time, European forms contain almost everything that is characteristic of humans. It remains to explain the gaps in time.
            1. 0
              4 November 2023 07: 11
              What did the Eurasian Neanderthals do in the territory of present-day Israel and Iran.

              Lived. What else could they do there? Israel and Iran are precisely Eurasia.
              Why did such advanced, highly developed and aggressive Homo Sapiens, who, in your opinion, defeated the Neanderthals in Europe, let these primitive ones go south?

              Well, firstly, technologically and culturally, sapiens at that time (about 70-80 ka ago) were not superior to Neanderthals. The Cro-Magnons did not immediately surpass the Neandlerthals. The former have Moustier, the latter have analogues of Moustier. Aurignac, Paleolithic Venuses and sewing needles are all yet to come. And according to geneticists, at least the bulk (if not all) of hybridization occurred precisely during the period when Neanderthals and sapiens lived together in the Levant, and not during the later period of their joint stay in Europe (though this is quite old data, and geneticists report every year something new). Secondly, are you sure that sapiens were already living in the Levant at the time the Neanderthals arrived there? Most likely it’s the other way around - it was the Neanderthals who missed the sapiens..
              Pierolapithecus catalaunicus belonged to a diverse group of now-extinct apes that inhabited Europe 15–7 million years ago.

              15-7 million years ago, various anthropoids lived in both Asia and Africa. I have already written to you. What is so special about this monkey that you rush around with it?
              Are you really trying to compare this: With this: and do you think it’s correct? They lived in Europe at least 8-10 million years earlier than these more primitive representatives of the apes.

              What's wrong with your arithmetic - Pierolapithecus lived 13 million years ago. Sahelanthropus, Orrorin and Ardipithecus lived 7 -5 million years ago. Where did the difference of 10 million years come from? and why did you decide that the glorious African monkeys are more primitive than Pierolapithecus? Pierolapithecus is close to the common ancestor of hominids, and Sahelanthropus, Orrorin and Ardipithecus are hominins, a more advanced subfamily of the hominid family. Moreover, most researchers consider Sahelanthropus, Ardipithecus and Orrorin to be erect, i.e. Pierolapithecus was not even close.
              Pierolapithecus is closer in shape and size to the ancestor from which modern apes and humans descended

              That's right - Pierolapithecus is close to the common ancestors of all anthropoids, Sahelanthropus, Orrorin and Ardipithecus - along with the gorilla and chimpanzee - are the pinnacle of anthropoids.
              The most important. This work was published in 2004.

              It’s all about nothing.
              In Europe, primitive people more than 3 million years ago hunted mammoths in an organized manner, with spears, and used fire.

              Yah? A link to reliable research.
              1. +1
                4 November 2023 08: 14
                Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                with the gorilla and chimpanzee - the pinnacle of apes.
                The most important. This work was published in 2004.

                It’s all about nothing.


                Sergei!
                You should first read the article, quotes from which I am giving you. The link to the article is above in my comments. I’m not highlighting my own words, but serious specialists. If you didn’t meet her in 2004, read it now. Otherwise, it turns out to be a conversation between a deaf person and a dumb person. Nehilism (healthy) is normal, but ignoring scientific research conducted for more than 20 years is no longer negilism, but something else. You ignore direct quotes from scientific works and simply subjectively deny them, based on your own opinion. I often don’t even translate so that you can get acquainted with the original text from the article. Doesn't this seem strange to you? If you don't like something, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or didn't exist.
                1. 0
                  4 November 2023 16: 42
                  Sorry, but you do not understand the meaning of what you read. The authors of the article clearly write to you - your monkey is at the beginning of the genealogy of apes, but you imagined who knows what, and still write nonsense. Goodbye.
                  1. +1
                    4 November 2023 22: 54
                    Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                    Sorry, but you do not understand the meaning of what you read. The authors of the article clearly write to you - your monkey is at the beginning of the genealogy of apes, but you imagined who knows what, and still write nonsense.


                    Can you give quotes from the article about the beginning of the pedigree of the great apes of Europe, without further ado?
                    1. 0
                      5 November 2023 17: 23
                      You still can't calm down? Here is your own translation:
                      “An interesting result of the evolutionary modeling in the study is that the skull of Pierolapithecus in shape and size closer to the ancestor from which modern apes evolved monkeys and people»

                      which is in good agreement with data from other sources.
                      Pierolapithecus is somewhere at the base of hominoids (it’s not even considered a hominid, oops!).
                      "The discoverers of Pierolapithecus, paleontologist Salvador Moya Sola and colleagues from the Catalan Institute of Paleontology in Barcelona, ​​consider it the common ancestor of orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos and humans. ... Analysis of the reconstructed skull of Pierolapithecus is consistent with the hypothesis that this species is a representative basal group, including apes and humans"
                      https://4everscience.com/2023/10/18/reconstructed-cranium-of-pierolapithecus/
                      (although other researchers classify it as Dryopithecus or Pongidae). There are interesting links on this monkey in the English-language Wikipedia.
                      I did not find data on the volume of his brain - apparently the dome of the skull was not preserved, but analysis of other parts of the skeleton clearly excludes bipedalism, so your favorite monkey is definitely more primitive than Ardipithecus and Orrorin.
                      Well, in conclusion, a photo of the skull, so that you don’t make hasty conclusions from the cute pictures - pay attention to the fangs, it’s just a saber-toothed tiger, not a hominoid::
                      1. +1
                        6 November 2023 01: 04
                        1.
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        Pierolapithecus is somewhere at the base of hominoids (it’s not even considered a hominid, oops!).


                        Not certainly in that way. Or rather, the conclusions are exactly the opposite of your statement. Here are quotes from the articles:
                        The findings are consistent with the idea that this species represents one of the earliest representatives of the great apes.
                        https://4everscience.com/2023/10/18/reconstructed-cranium-of-pierolapithecus/


                        Pierolapithecus catalaunicus belonged to a diverse group of now-extinct apes that inhabited Europe 15–7 million years ago.
                        https://www.earth.com/news/experts-recreate-the-face-of-pierolapithecus-a-12-million-year-old-ape/


                        The results indicate that Pierolapithecus represents one of the earliest representatives of the apes and humans.


                        Apes, or hominoids, or anthropomorphids, also simply anthropoids


                        Inside the skull, fragments of the inner ear are well preserved. Their shape indicates that Nyanzapithecus belonged to the “advanced” apes, like the ancestors of chimpanzees and orangutans. Oreopithecus, an advanced upright walking monkey, had a similar inner ear structure. However, Nyanzapithecus, like Oreopithecus, is not a direct ancestor of either humans or modern apes, but represents a separate dead-end branch.
                        https://nplus1.ru/news/2017/08/10/alesi

                        In virtually all articles, Pierolapithecus is classified as an early ape, or hominid. Which, in fact, is the same thing. You can double-check and carefully read the original articles.

                        2.
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        but analysis of other parts of the skeleton clearly excludes upright walking, so your favorite monkey is definitely more primitive than Ardipithecus and Orrorin.


                        Previous work suggests Pierolapithecus had an upright body plan that predates the adaptation that allowed hominids to walk along tree branches.
                        https://www.earth.com/news/experts-recreate-the-face-of-pierolapithecus-a-12-million-year-old-ape/

                        So it is not yet a fact which forms were closer to upright walking.
                        The results indicate that Pierolapithecus represents one of the earliest representatives of the apes and humans.

                        «An interesting result of the evolutionary modeling in the study is that the skull of Pierolapithecus is closer in shape and size to the ancestor from which modern apes and humans evolved,” study co-author Sergio Almesia said.

                        The facial structure of Pierolapithecus is no less revealing. It has forward-facing eyes, a short snout and small fangs, which distinguishes it from fruit-eating primates and suggests a varied diet. These characteristics paint a picture of a versatile and adaptive creature straddling the line between the arboreal and terrestrial worlds.


                        As we see, in the Northeast of Spain there lived a monkey that was very close to the common ancestor of humans and apes. The key word here is Europe and the Northeast and not Africa at all. Can you provide data on the finds of remains of apes in Africa older than 15 million years that are superior in development to at least Pierolapithecus, or are its ancestral form? If not, then what are the grounds for asserting that apes and humans originated or came out of Africa?

                        Our analysis supports the presence of a hominid ancestor that differed from all living and fossil hominids in overall facial shape and shared many features with Pierolapithecus.
                        https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2218778120
                      2. +1
                        6 November 2023 05: 04
                        Taking into account the currently available data, the hypothesis suggesting a Eurasian origin of hominids is preferred, given the following facts: (i) the presence in the Middle Miocene of Eurasia of both Kenyapithecus and hominids, (ii) their probable sister-group relationships, and (iii) their striking sequential time interval (Kenyapithecus, 15–13 Ma; Dryopithecus, such as Anoiapithecines and Pierolapithecus, 11,9 Ma; and Late Miocene hominids, <11,1 Ma). Kenyapithecines retain not only a primitive facial pattern for apes, but also, as far as can be determined, a pronograde postcranial body structure (21–23, 28, 29). Anoiapithecus and other dryopithecus (Dryopithecus s.s. and Pierolapithecus) share with late Miocene Eurasian hominids and modern apes a derived facial morphology (4, 5) and, at least Pierolapithecus, an orthograde postcranial body plan (5). This combination of features supports the view that crowned hominids originated in Eurasia from the more primitive ancestors of Kenyapithecins and spread across this continent into pongins and hominins (Fig. 4).

                        This scenario entails the subsequent dispersal of the ape clade (African apes and humans) "back to Africa"
                        (9, 18).
                        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701031/


                        Rudapithecus has been interpreted as either an anthropoid (Begun, 2001, Cordos and Begun, 2001, Begun, 2009, Begun, 2010, Begun, 2015, Begun et al., 2012) or a stem hominid (Alba, 2012). Alba (2012) argued for a close relationship between Rudapithecus and the human primate Hispanopithecus from the Valles Penedes Basin in Spain. Differences in facial profile, pelvic morphology, and inferred torso shape and body position between Sivapithecus and Rudapithecus argue against Rudapithecus being a member of the Pongi clade (see also discussion in Begun, 2015), although this interpretation is complicated by uncertainty surrounding the precise phylogenetic position of Sivapithecus ( see above). Rudapithecus has also been compared to anthropoids based on cranial anatomy, including a stepped subnasal fossa with overlap of the nasoalveolar clivus and palatine process of the maxilla, an elongated low neurocranium with an inion at the level of the superior edges of the orbit, and fusion of the tympanic and articular parts of the temporal bone (Begun, 2009, Begun, 2010). 2015, Runner, XNUMX). Other cranial features suggest that Rudapithecus is a human, although not everyone agrees that these are human synapomorphies. These features include a ventrally deviated face relative to the neurocranium (clinorhynchia), well-developed frontal sinuses continuous with the ethmoid bone, reminiscent of the ethmoidal frontal sinus, and thin but distinct supraorbital tori (Kordos and Begun, 2001; Begun, 2010). Thus, Rudapithecus may have been a basal or stem man (a hypothesis supported by the DRB), but even the most conservative phylogenetic interpretations include Rudapithecus among the hominids (Alba, 2012).
                        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047248419300685


                        In addition to my comment above, another source directly substantiates the origin of great apes (hominids) in Europe.
                      3. 0
                        6 November 2023 10: 07
                        How difficult it is for you if you cannot understand the meaning of what you read!
                        Not certainly in that way. Or rather, the conclusions are exactly the opposite of your statement. Here are quotes from the articles:

                        And here are the quotes that confirm my words:
                        The findings are consistent with the idea that this species represents one of the earliest representatives of the great apes.

                        Do you understand the meaning of what was written? One of the early hominids, from the early apes came both higher and lower apes. Sahelanthropus, Orrorin and Ardipithecus are late higher apes.
                        Pierolapithecus catalaunicus belonged to a diverse group of now-extinct apes that inhabited Europe 15–7 million years ago.

                        Early anthropoids (dryopithecus and related ones, including Pierolapithecus) lived in Europe, Africa, and Asia (including China). According to the authors of the satatya, his ear is similar to the structure of the ear of higher apes. It may well be. It happens. I have already written to you several times, and the same thing is written in numerous articles about this monkey of yours. It is close to the ancestors of modern apes. Monkeys! Humans are still more than ten million years old. Oriopithecus has nothing to do with it at all, its belonging to anthropoids is doubtful and bipedalism is a very, very big question, as is Nianzopithecus, which is now classified as a proconsulid.
                        Apes, or hominoids

                        So, who can argue? To hominoids (apes). No one classifies him as a hominid (higher apes), much less as a hominin (humans and their immediate ancestors).
                        Previous work suggests that Pierolapithecus had an upright body plan, which predated the adaptation that allowed hominids to walk along tree branches.

                        Firstly, they are just guessing. Secondly - by trees. This basically says it all.
                        It has forward-facing eyes, a short muzzle and small fangs,

                        Compared to all the proconsuls there, yes, this is indeed progress. It would be nice to compare it with Dryopithecus. We have already seen how small its fangs are.
                        Pierolapithecus skull in shape and size closer to the ancestor from which modern apes descended

                        Don't be disingenuous. Closer is when they compare. For example, they would write that it is closer than other European Dryopithecus. But this is not the case. Therefore it is more correct to translate
                        "Pierolapithecus skull in shape and size close to the ancestor from which modern apes descended. Do you agree?
                        These characteristics paint a picture of a versatile and adaptive creature straddling the line between the arboreal and terrestrial worlds.

                        And on what basis did the respected authors make this conclusion? They look good as wood ones. Perhaps they periodically descended to the ground. We don't know the details.
                        The key word here is Europe and the Northeast and not Africa at all.

                        Wake up. Dryopithecus lived from Spain to China, including Africa. Your monkey looks good (but not great) - mainly according to the authors of the study. Other anthropologists do not particularly distinguish this species from other early anthropoids. But suppose apes actually originated in Europe. This cannot be ruled out (nor can it be confirmed 100%). What next? Further finds of hominoid bones in Europe disappear...
                        But there appear... hominids in Africa and Asia, and hominins in Africa.
                      4. +1
                        6 November 2023 15: 54
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        But suppose apes actually originated in Europe. This cannot be ruled out (nor can it be confirmed 100%). What next? Further finds of hominoid bones in Europe disappear...
                        But there appear... hominids in Africa and Asia, and hominins in Africa.


                        Then everything is simple, or rather, as always. If you pay attention to this graph, you can assume that the temperature level in Europe has reached a level of discomfort for great apes and they have headed south, including to Africa. This is how apes appeared in Africa. Graph below:


                        If you look at the temperature chart, there is a fairly long period, between 35 and 10 million years ago, of stable, relatively cool temperatures. These 20 million years of cool temperatures forced monkeys in Europe to come down from the trees to get food, grow legs and change the hip joint, in pursuit of prey, due to the lack of plant food, periodically. That's all. No way without Santa Claus. Therefore, the remains of great apes disappeared in Europe. And more advanced forms of Rudapithecus are found not in the north of Europe, but in the south of Spain and Hungary, on the way to the Levant and Africa.
                      5. 0
                        7 November 2023 21: 21
                        Then everything is simple

                        It's simple - it's yours. How it was in reality - scientists argue. But do you really agree that man appeared in Africa? Phenomenal!
                      6. +1
                        7 November 2023 22: 16
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        . How it was in reality - scientists argue. But do you really agree that man appeared in Africa? Phenomenal!


                        Definitely and definitely not. This is impossible. If this were so, Europeans would have black skin and the 3rd blood group would prevail, and not the first. In Africa and Asia, climatic conditions stimulated the evolution of primates. In the warmth and comfort there was no need to descend to earth and evolve into a human being.

                        The fact is that great apes from Northern Eurasia migrated not so much to Africa, but more to Asia, including the Arabian Peninsula.
                      7. 0
                        8 November 2023 21: 20
                        It's impossible.

                        Almost all scientists disagree with you. But I understand - you are smarter than them.
                        If this were so, Europeans would have black skin and the 3rd blood group would prevail, and not the first.

                        They had black skin. And to this day, Mediterranean people are quite dark-skinned. And then it’s a matter of chance. No one has canceled mutations, just like the genocide of hunter-gatherers by farmers.
                        In the warmth and comfort there was no need to descend to earth and evolve into a human being.

                        Warm - maybe, although at night in those areas of Africa where humanity arose, it is quite cold. But as for comfort, this is nonsense. Just during the period of the formation of humanity, the forest area in Africa decreased catastrophically, and the higher apes were faced with a dilemma - learn to live in the savannah or die.
                      8. +1
                        8 November 2023 22: 26
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        It's impossible.

                        Almost all scientists disagree with you. But I understand - you are smarter than them.


                        In the Eocene, primates were distributed throughout the Holarctic. They flourished in subtropical forests, which, thanks to the warm climate of that era, grew even in high latitudes. However, by the Oligocene, which began about 34 million years ago, the planet became noticeably colder and drier, causing dense northern forests to give way to open forests and grassy plains. As a result, the primates' range declined sharply. In particular, they disappeared from Europe (with the exception of the Iberian Peninsula) and North America for millions of years.
                        https://nplus1.ru/news/2023/11/07/ekgmowechashala/amp
                        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248423001318?via%3Dihub#sec5https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248423001318?via%3Dihub#sec5


                        What do I and my opinion have to do with this? If you noticed, I operate exclusively with quotes and usually from more than serious publications, based on many years of research, the results of which are confirmed by reviews of world-famous scientists, i.e. authoritative and respected by all. I do not invent fantastic stories, such as the Bible, the Old Testament, etc., but rely on scientific data over the past 20 years.
                        So scientists today are more likely to disagree with you, although they agreed about 50 years ago.
                      9. +1
                        8 November 2023 22: 57
                        We are just discussing with you the period from 34 to 10 million years ago, when apes, or hominids, who are the ancestors of modern humans, evolved in Europe. Cold weather forced them to migrate south, towards Africa, but the Mediterranean and Black Seas stopped this migration in the area of ​​​​the Iberian Peninsula and the Carpathians, forcing the apes to evolve into humans.
                        Naturally, some reached Africa in the form of transitional, dead-end forms that did not evolve into humans, but formed the order of great apes that exists today, or disappeared.
                      10. The comment was deleted.
                      11. +1
                        9 November 2023 08: 11
                        I remember you claimed that Homo Sapiens exterminated the Neanderthals. They probably should have exterminated him too:

                        I have a feeling that I meet hundreds of them every day in the Metro and on the sidewalks. You did not see? By the way! Age over 60 years. Almost all teeth are lost, and also arthritis of the spine, brucellosis. Obviously he was cared for with such diseases. Where did he get the unboiled milk? Maybe the mammoths were milked. Interesting. How much milk did one mammoth give?
                      12. 0
                        9 November 2023 22: 59
                        I don't make up fantastic stories

                        But what is this then?
                        but the Mediterranean and Black Seas stopped this migration in the area of ​​the Iberian Peninsula and the Carpathians, forcing the apes to evolve into humans.

                        Naked fiction, absolutely unscientific. You found pictures of early apes in the Balkans and Spain, but apparently you cannot understand that early apes are far from people. The first people found in the Balkans and Spain are Erectus Heidelbergians. Dryopithecus is farther from them than from Earth to Jupiter.
                        I have a feeling that I meet hundreds of them every day in the Metro and on the sidewalks.

                        I noticed that you react to the beautiful pictures of the reenactors. Anthroplogs work not with pictures, but with bones. And the bones say unequivocally - Naenderthals and sapiens are too different for one to have descended from the other. And geneticists confirm this. Stay in your fairy tales. Ciao!
                        P.S. He took milk from the udders of killed females, most likely deer and wild cows, as savages still do in Africa today. Scientists have long noticed that Neanderthals often consumed thermally unprocessed food - and this is harmful to health.
                      13. +1
                        10 November 2023 11: 25
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        But what is this then?
                        but the Mediterranean and Black Seas stopped this migration in the area of ​​the Iberian Peninsula and the Carpathians, forcing the apes to evolve into humans.

                        Naked fiction, absolutely unscientific. You found pictures of early apes in the Balkans and Spain, but apparently you cannot understand that early apes are far from people. The first people found in the Balkans and Spain are Erectus Heidelbergians. Dryopithecus is farther from them than from Earth to Jupiter.


                        This is just a statement of fact.
                        You don't seem to mind that the first or "early apes" appeared in Europe, or Northern Eurasia, and then spread to Africa and Asia. As stated in this scientific paper:
                        This combination of features confirms the opinion that crowned hominids originated in Eurasia from the more primitive ancestors of Kenyapithecins and spread across this continent into pongins and hominins (Fig. 4).

                        This scenario entails the subsequent dispersal of the ape clade (African apes and humans) "back to Africa" (9, 18).
                        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701031/

                        This happened thanks to one remarkable natural phenomenon, please note:

                        The period I highlighted, about 25 million years, of stable cool temperatures with a fairly wide amplitude of fluctuations, apparently, stimulated the evolutionary development of great apes, specifically in Europe. Probably only there the most favorable conditions for this have developed.

                        stopped this migration in the area of ​​the Iberian Peninsula and the Carpathians

                        I didn't make this up, here's the quote below:
                        However, by the Oligocene, which began about 34 million years ago, the planet became noticeably colder and drier, causing dense northern forests to give way to open forests and grassy plains. As a result, the primates' range declined sharply. In particular, they disappeared from Europe (with the exception of the Iberian Peninsula) and North America for millions of years..
                        https://nplus1.ru/news/2023/11/07/ekgmowechashala/amp
                        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248423001318?via%3Dihub#sec5https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248423001318?via%3Dihub#sec5


                        Quite understandably, the early anthropoid primates that appeared in Europe could hardly have crossed the Mediterranean Sea to get to Africa. They had to go around the Mediterranean Sea, passing through the Carpathians, the Levant and hitting the Nile, moving along the coast to Africa. By the way, already in the Carpathians, on the territory of Hungary, Rudapithecus is discovered, an anthropoid with a flexible hip joint, like a person’s. Pay attention to how scientists call it:
                        (Begun, 2009, Begun, 2010, Begun, 2015). Other cranial features suggest that Rudapithecus is a human, although not everyone agrees that these are human synapomorphies.

                        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0047248419300685





                        What happened to those who remained on the Iberian Peninsula, as indicated in the work.

                        This is not me saying all this, but peer-reviewed scientific articles.
                        If you believe them, then even though primitive man reached Africa, he came out of Europe.
                        Naturally, it was not Homo Sapiens, but there is no evidence of the origin of Homo Sapiens in Africa. The forms you refer to are considered by many to be dead ends and most likely the ancestor will be found in Europe, on the Iberian Peninsula, in the Carpathians, the Mediterranean coast, or the Levant. This is not easy because the sea level has risen by 150 meters.
                        Understand a simple thing. Anthropoid hominids, as they migrated to Africa, encountered only apes, not apes. Consequently, their descendants, as they moved south, became more ape-like, i.e. degraded, forming new transitional forms, often dead-end. This process continued for millions of years until the great apes reached Cape Horn.

                        These conclusions are supported by a simple and stubborn fact. The evolution of apes (primates) that reached the tropics stopped and then specialized evolutionary changes began, associated with adaptation to the conditions of the tropics, and not with human development. This is unnecessary and even harmful in tropical conditions. You don’t have to think there, you have to survive, otherwise they’ll eat you while you’re thinking.
                      14. 0
                        10 November 2023 23: 35
                        This is not me saying all this, but peer-reviewed scientific articles.

                        Every year, a sea of ​​peer-reviewed scientific articles on anthropology are published around the world. Why do you choose the most unscientific, and even ancient and outdated ones, while ignoring the bulk of modern articles?
                        (Begun, 2009, Begun, 2010, Begun, 2015). Other cranial features indicate that Rudapithecus is a human,

                        So it's 2023. Rudapithecus - Dryopithecus, not related to humans in any way
                        https://antropogenez.ru/single-news/article/842/
                        most likely the ancestor will be discovered in Europe

                        Anthropology is an evidence-based science. Go to the Pyrenees and the Balkans, it seems like Spain and Serbia are still accepting Russians, and look for transitional forms there. When you find it, write an article in Science - then we’ll talk.
                        by many

                        Why do you talk about Klesov in the plural?
                      15. +1
                        11 November 2023 06: 22
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        Every year, a sea of ​​peer-reviewed scientific articles on anthropology are published around the world. Why do you choose the most unscientific, and even ancient and outdated ones, while ignoring the bulk of modern articles?


                        You don't like the articles I quote. At the same time, your argumentation is often limited to your subjective opinion. Do you think your opinion is enough?
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        So it's 2023. Rudapithecus - Dryopithecus, not related to humans in any way
                        https://antropogenez.ru/single-news/article/842/


                        I cannot help but note, while smugly stroking my belly, that all of the indicated patterns were deduced by me on completely different materials when writing my diploma and candidate’s thesis twenty years ago, just when the Rudapithecus skull was just found. It's always nice when the results of your work are fully and independently confirmed :)
                        17.01.2020
                        Author: S. Drobyshevsky


                        What did you find in this article, except "smug belly stroking"?
                        This is not a scientific article, but the usual, subjective opinion of Drobyshevsky, who discussed the skull of Rudapithecus. However! The uniqueness of Rudapithecus lies not in the skull, but in the structure of the hip joint, similar to that of a human. Skull of Pierolapithecus (The research project was conducted by scientists from the American Museum of Natural History, Brooklyn College, and the Catalan Institute of Paleontology Miquel Crusafont.) in combination with the hip joint of Rudapithecus.
                        However:
                        This paper describes this new partial pelvis (RUD 210/211), attributed to R. hungaricus, and compares its morphology with that of modern primates and fossil hominoids. This specimen provides new details of the anatomy of this critical anatomical region in the late Miocene ape, as well as new data needed to interpret the ancestral pelvic morphology of the hominin (a taxon closer to Homo than to Pan).

                        Journal of Human Evolution
                        Volume 136, November 2019, 102645
                        Partial pelvis of a late Miocene hominid from Hungary.
                        Author links open overlay panel Carol W. Ward, Ashley S. Hammond bc, J. Michael Plavkan d, David R. Begun and
                        Integrative Anatomy Program, Department of Pathology and Anatomical Sciences, School of Medicine, Health Sciences Building M263, One Hospital Drive, University of Missouri, Columbia, MO 65212, USA
                        б
                        Department of Anthropology, American Museum of Natural History, New York 10024, USA.
                        с
                        New York Consortium for Evolutionary Primatology (NYCEP), USA
                        д
                        Department of Anthropology, 330 Old Main, University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, AR 72701, USA
                        е
                        Department of Anthropology, University of Toronto, 19 Russell Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada


                        If this is not a scientific article, then what is a scientific article?
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        Anthropology is an evidence-based science. Go to the Pyrenees and the Balkans, it seems like Spain and Serbia are still accepting Russians, and look for transitional forms there. When you find it, write an article in Science - then we’ll talk.


                        Have they ever found a direct human ancestor in Africa? You are wasting your enthusiasm on something that has not been proven.
                      16. 0
                        11 November 2023 16: 23
                        at the same time, your argumentation is often limited to your subjective opinion. .

                        This is not my judgmental opinion, this is the mainstream of modern anthropology. Select articles on anthropology over the past decades - and see for yourself. I will not do this work for you.
                        This is not a scientific article, but the usual, subjective opinion of Drobyshevsky,

                        Are you crazy? However, what am I asking...
                        Drobyshevsky simply retells the results of the reconstruction of the skull of Rudapithecus, there are links at the end of the article - are you too lazy to go through it or does your faith not allow it?
                        However! The uniqueness of Rudapithecus lies not in the skull, but in the structure of the hip joint, similar to that of a human.

                        But a pelvis is a pelvis, sorry, a person is defined not by his pelvis, but by his head. And if your head doesn’t reach the level of a chimpanzee, then all your pathos goes down the toilet. It has been noted more than once or twice that the evolution of hominids is mosaic, when different species combine different advanced traits with other primitive ones.
                        Have they ever found a direct human ancestor in Africa?

                        Even if some species of Autralopithecines are not the direct ancestors of humans, they are very close to them. Nothing even close to this has been found in Europe.
                        So I say goodbye, I won’t talk to you in this thread anymore, I’m tired of explaining elementary truths. Doubts and criticism are good when they are based on facts, but you just have a fountain of crazy ideas, citing scientific articles in your justification, without even understanding their meaning.
                      17. 0
                        10 December 2023 15: 12
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        Even if some species of Autralopithecines are not the direct ancestors of humans, they are very close to them.


                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        Doubts and criticism are good when based on facts


                        As you yourself say, science is based on facts. Since in Africa, according to you, there are no traces of confirmed transitional forms of people, then there is no reason to assert that man came out of Africa. When unambiguous evidence of the origin of man is found in a certain region, then it will be possible to talk about the homeland of the origin of people, and not engage in fantasies on the topic of human origin.
                      18. 0
                        4 March 2024 20: 46
                        Since in Africa, according to you, there are no traces of confirmed transitional forms of people

                        Where did you find this in my words? Africa has a sea of ​​confirmed transitional forms of people. From Australopithecus to Sapiens. They don’t raise any questions for anyone except you. Nothing similar has been found either in Europe or Asia.
                      19. 0
                        5 March 2024 01: 23
                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        Even if some species of Autralopithecines are not the direct ancestors of humans, they are very close to them.




                        I quoted your words.


                        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                        Where did you find this in my words?


                        Re-read your comments.
  12. +3
    1 November 2023 18: 05
    Quote: Cartalon
    If the genome has been deciphered, then we can find out the color of hair and eyes
    Just guesswork.
    Genetics provides acceptable accuracy in relation to forensic science, and in matters of establishing paternity.
    And in matters of judgment about what happened more than 1000 years ago, genetics is akin to shamanism
  13. +3
    1 November 2023 21: 19
    V.O. You, a city person, did not notice what I, a rural resident, noticed.
    40 km/h “there are a lot of nuances here: an empty cart or with a load. With a load and over rough terrain. Yes, they will kill the horses and then they’re screwed!
    Another nuance: what kind of horses were used. Percherons are excluded, old horses too, I exclude them. Those who are not well-trained will be able to navigate the dirt road, but sharp stones... Again, they will spoil the horses and drag them on themselves?
    1. 0
      2 November 2023 18: 34
      A two-wheeled chariot with two horses and two crew members.
  14. +4
    1 November 2023 21: 38
    In St. Petersburg, in the Kirovsky district, there is Turbinnaya Street, and its residents for the neighboring streets are, accordingly, Turbino residents. I don't know the haplogroup.
  15. +3
    1 November 2023 22: 01
    I also came across an opinion on the Internet that the Seima-Turbino residents were simply... skilled robbers.
    The Internet is a well-known source of misinformation designed to fuel theories put forward by various historians. laughing
  16. +3
    2 November 2023 07: 48
    Quote: kalibr
    Exactly! What has been dug up cannot be buried back!

    However, it is possible to excavate in such a way that there is no need to bury it. Here is Schliemann, he dug up Troy (and more than one). And how much and what he buried - God knows.
  17. 0
    2 November 2023 18: 42
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Roman Efremov
    The Andronovites, presumably, did not have rims - how did their wheels not fall apart when driving over rough terrain at a speed of supposedly 40 km/h???
    The second question is the axle, is it really made of wood?

    Wow! Exactly! This means how firmly it was necessary to connect and glue. However, hoof glue provides an exceptionally strong connection. You can judge by the finds of bows - the joints have been preserved to this day!
    And - yes - the axle is wooden!!!

    Thin log? Well, so that the strength is decent.
  18. 0
    1 December 2023 08: 25
    Wooden wheels made by clever craftsmen can really stand up to a lot. Not 4000 km, naturally, but really a lot. Maybe up to 1000 km. But only if they are correctly grabbed by a metal rim.
    What cannot withstand even 100 km are wooden axles) They will fray no matter what you make them from. Therefore, the main condition for the manufacture of such “chariots” is durable metal axles. The friction bearing in the wheel can also be made of wood; it can be changed frequently, unlike the axle. As a child, on the territory of an agricultural machinery repair plant, I saw a workshop for the manufacture and repair of cart wheels. It had not worked for a long time, but was still preserved. It was a very complex production, I would say!)
    That's interesting. Historians write all about “tribes”. How the cities of Gardariki, tens of times larger in population than the then largest cities in Europe, are persistently called “fortifications”. They say they lived in the forest, prayed to the wheel, while culture bloomed and smelled like crap in Europe)
    Guys! These INDUSTRIAL advances are not for the tribes! Under no circumstances will one blue-legged blacksmith be able to establish a unified production (look at the spear points) of good alloys! And not because it is impossible with two or three pairs of hands. But because FREE exchange of information between forging production centers is necessary.
    Decades of experiments carried out by thousands of forge shops are needed. And at the same time, constant exchange of received data is necessary. For such an exchange, a lot more is needed, starting with such a trifle as the Chamber of Weights and Measures. It is impossible to share a recipe for smelting bronze if you do not have a universal measure of weight. It is not always possible to operate with “parts”. Well, etc. In general, complex forging products are a DEVELOPED civilization. Very developed.
    And it's weird as hell. Where did such a civilization come from and where did it go? What signs was it based on? How could she disappear so completely? Or do we simply not understand what these traces are? There is no hope for historians...
  19. 0
    April 3 2024 15: 32
    An interesting feature of the Seima-Turbino bronzes is the high percentage of arsenic they contain. That is, these are arsenic bronzes, which are durable, malleable, and pour well into molds, but the production of which does not add health to the foundry workers at all. Moreover, spectrographic analysis shows that the arsenic in them, as a rule, is local, but the tin they contain... is from the Sayan Mountains!

    Well, did they carry a supply of it with them, get it through trade through the mountains and forests, or melt down old products? But then a lot of tin was wasted, and maybe that’s why it was replaced with arsenic? Or was it for the same reason that many of their spearheads were cast from silver? Questions, questions, questions...
    Let the respected expert know that the very first bronze was arsenic, and tin began to be used as an alloy due to the depletion of arsenic ore deposits. Similarly, later the first iron was learned to be mined and processed due to the depletion of deposits of copper and bronze. And richly decorated weapons made of silver and gold were generally ceremonial or status weapons and no one was going to fight with them.
    1. 0
      April 3 2024 15: 38
      *due to the depletion of deposits of copper and tin