Pre-revolutionary Russia in the photos. Peasant life of the Volga

Pre-revolutionary Russia in the photos. Peasant life of the Volga

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[Yoshkin Kot]

they don’t look like those whom Marxist propaganda painted

[Alone]

And whom did Marxist propaganda draw? How much did I study it, so on the contrary everything converges.

[Yoshkin Kot]

hungry, undressed, poor, something not to see not hungry not undressed, not poor
there’s a fishing dugout, so we still have the same people on Kruzak, they spend the night in autumn

[Alan]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

there’s a fishing dugout, so we still have the same people on Kruzak, they spend the night in autumn

Yes, technology has changed all the same, the "Kruzaks" come and not on a peasant horse. Only in the whole world, little has changed. Here are Nekrasov's poems written in 1854, but it seems about us, about our time.

Great spectacles, world destinies
We are delivered by the audience today:
Original bloody enemies
Uniting, go against Russia:
The fire of war swept half the world
And lit up with a sinister glow
The acts of the powers of peace ...

Turned into a disgrace of hostility
Sea and land ... slow and dull
Masses of ships moved toward us,
Boastfully predicting our doom,
And finally came closer - they stand
Before the fortified Russian stronghold ...
And now in the urn fatal
Two lots ... and the time comes
When the solver of peace and war
Will cast them out with an omnipotent hand
And show the shocked light

So yes, we are dressed differently, and technical progress is "on the face" but in fact ...

[The centurion]

Looking at the photo they come to mind for some reason that other verses of N. Nekrasov

In which year - count,
In what land - guess,
On the highway
Seven peasants came together:
Seven temporarily liable,
A smart province,
Terpigoreva county,
Empty-voiced volost,
From adjacent villages:
Zablatova, Dyryaeva,
Razutov, Znobishin,
Gorelova, Neelova -
Failure identity,
Came - and argued:
Who lives happily,
Free in Russia?

Roman said: to the landowner,
Demyan said: to the official,
Luke said: ass.
Cupina Tolpoi! -
Said the brothers Gubina,
Ivan and Mitrodor.
Old Man groined with Pakhom
And he said, looking into the earth:
To the noble boyar,
To the Minister of the Tsar.
But Prov said to the king ...

[Andrey58]

Nekrasov then is like today Makarevich, and under the Soviets - Sinyavsky. An intellectual who is constantly whining about something, either wanting freedom, or stellar sturgeon with horseradish.

[Nagaibak]

Yoshkin Kot "hungry, undressed, beggars, something not to be seen not hungry, not naked, not beggars"
And you take a closer look! And you will see exactly what you wrote about!

[Yoshkin Kot]

Canes, Canes, infected by Marxism always sees what it wants to see

[Nagaibak]

Yoshkin Kot "kaneshno, kaneshno, infected with Marxism always sees what he wants to see"
I didn’t want to answer, but when I saw the Yoshkar-Ola cat I will answer. Of course, my friend, how can you not know that before the Soviet government your city was not at all. Before the revolution, the Mari lived in such poverty that they still remember in the villages. And now you can see who lives. So Stalin organized the republic from scratch, created the capital. In which there are theaters, museums and other benefits of civilization. So, now Yoshkar-ol is a decent city, developing. I was there in the month of August. So, the very existence of your republican capital is a direct merit of the communists that you hate!

[vyatom]

I do not particularly see wealth and affluence. Most of the workers and peasants were very poor. Hear you, fans of tsarism.

[Harleone]

And the hungry, the poor and the naked would not be photographed.

[nurker2]

Quote: Harleone

And the hungry, the poor and the naked would not be photographed.

Did you live at that time?

[Beltar]

Yeah, the wear of clothes says a lot.

[atalef]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

there’s a fishing dugout, so we still have the same people on Kruzak, they spend the night in autumn

Yes, yes, in general, the village is not much different, it was in the village of Nizino ((Volkhov district), very similar. Wooden huts, a primer and a well.

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

hungry, undressed, poor, something not to see not hungry not undressed, not poor

Neither beggars nor hungry. And the fact that so dressed, well, so the time is different.

[Marek Rozny]

Atalef, this is not such a fashion, this is the real poverty of the people. Pay attention to shoes - or barefoot, or more often bast shoes! Do you know what bast shoes are? The most primitive bast shoes that can be worn for a maximum of a week. After which the peasant is forced to weave new bast shoes. No boots, no leather shoes, no shoes! Only one photograph shows a more or less prosperous family, where people have some kind of shoes. In one photo, a man in summer boots in general. I don’t understand why he put them on - he will erase them in a week!
Simple galoshes were the crystal dream of a simple Russian person. Galoshes could afford only rich commoners. Valenoks until recently were completely absent in Russia, only in Siberia the local Russians who adopted these shoes from the Turks there wore them. And only recently in Russia (in the 19th century) appeared factories for the production of boots, which were still expensive for ordinary people.
And boots are generally "Ferrari" for people. The Russian word "goldfinch" appeared not from the bird "goldfinch", but from the Türkic word "goldfinch", which literally means "nailed", "lined with nails". That was the name of those who had boots.

[Yoshkin Kot]

from, and in summer you don’t go in leather bast shoes? or barefoot on the beach?

[Marek Rozny]

ahh, so it's vacationers on the beach? Thank you for the clarification.

[Sanches]

Marek Rozny (4) KZ Yesterday, 21:51 PM

they’re at least in bast shoes, and my grandmother, a Soviet peasant woman, spent all her barefoot childhood, both in winter and in summer. I don’t want to judge either the Tsar or the Bolsheviks for shoes, but only the time solved the problem with shoes. that’s what the Bolsheviks really thank for - it’s for medicine and education

[Marek Rozny]

Well, yes, the Russian peasant people from hand to mouth and lived in hardship until the Khrushchev years. But! From the very beginning, the Soviet government aimed at creating a literate society, at its intellectual development. Even if everything did not work out right away, even if mistakes were made, sometimes even tragic, but there was a clear vector for the intellectual development of the common people. This is the main difference from the tsarist policy, which did practically nothing for the Russian peasants. How fashionable it is to say about our current political elite - "they were terribly far from the people."

[vyatom]

Quote: Marek Rozny

How fashionable it is to say about our current political elite - "they were terribly far from the people."

For which they paid in the 17th year. And no matter who tryndel, I am not sorry at all for these rowing august princes and the riffraff accompanying them.

[aleksandroff]

why did you bend. especially about boots. Amer literature read less. and no peasants would have exchanged bast shoes for galoshes. it’s like now only a fool will walk in socks in socks and not in footcloths. but footcloths do not speak of poverty. you know a bad story. and here is shown an ordinary life what it is almost now. only the clothes are a little different and the technique.

[Marek Rozny]

ok, alexandroff, tell me when felt boots appeared in Russia.
secondly, galoshes are worn on boots or boots, and not on the bare foot. you still say that the peasant would not exchange bast shoes for skates - it is also pointless to argue with such a statement.

[aleksandroff]

whole boots were already from the first half of the 18th century, and before that there were a lot of products from felted sheep wool and no need for the 19th century. in general, historians found such products in the Altai region of the 4th century. galoshes here on boots began to be worn in the 19th century. I myself am from the village and I did not put overshoes like many on felt boots because it was not convenient, so my grandfather was a guard and he needed it. I grew up in a village and even in our time a lot of guys ran barefoot but not from poverty. and I’m telling you that the photos are simply mundane. You can also sfotit a builder in work clothes and pass him off as a beggar.

[Marek Rozny]

alexandroff, felt boots in general appeared in Russia only in the 19th century. Until that time, only Siberians ("pims") used such shoes, who simply adopted these shoes from the local Siberian Turks.
but about the 4th century and Altai could not write at all :)))))) in the 4th century in Altai no one lived except the Türks. the ancestors of the eastern Slavs at that time were ooooooo far away, even before the present Kiev region they had not yet reached the territory of Central Europe.
the spread of boots in Russia in the 19th century was due to the fact that the first factories for their manufacture appeared. before that, boots were not found at all on Russian lands outside Siberia. The date of the 18th century is a mention of the fact that the first Russian felt boots began to be made in Yaroslavl, but there was no mass distribution.
Here is a quote unchanged from the wiki: “During the Golden Horde period, felt boots began to penetrate into the territory of Russia through the Turkic and Mongol tribes, whose shoes were called“ pima. ”In Russia, felt boots became widespread only in the first half of the XNUMXth century, when they began to be manufactured industrially. Before that, they were sufficient expensive and quite wealthy people could afford them ".
I could not find prices of the 19th century, but there are prices for goods of 1900:
warm boots - 4 rubles. 20 cop.,
felt boots 1 rub. 13 kopecks,
a pound of beef (0,4 kg) - 17 kopecks.,
3 pounds of black rye bread (1,2 kg) - 6 kopecks.,
groats (buckwheat) - 1,25 kopecks.
That is, one pair of felt boots in 1900 (when there were already enough factories, and the prices, logically, for these shoes fell) cost as much as 22,6 kg of bread, which in fact was the size of a month's food (and bread was the main food for the peasants). That is, a peasant does not have to eat for a month to buy felt boots. And this is still in the more or less prosperous "advanced" year 1900, and not in some 1890 or 1870.
Well, now back to the dialogue:

Quote: Marek Rozny

Valenoks until recently were completely absent in Russia, only in Siberia the local Russians who adopted these shoes from the Turks there wore them. And only recently in Russia (in the 19th century) appeared factories for the production of boots, which were still expensive for ordinary people.

Quote: aleksandroff

why did you bend. especially about boots.

And where did I go too far? You just wanted to chat with me? Thank you, I am pleased.

[Nagaibak]

atalef "Neither beggars, nor hungry. And the fact that they are dressed like this, well, the time is different."
Yes, of course, dressed barefoot! What a nonsense!

[yak69]

And do you think these people in the photo are well-fed, rich and satisfied ??
You just need to compare the photos of peasant life before the revolution and after. In my opinion, the difference is very bright. And just do not talk about the Holodomor - at that time my grandfathers and great-grandfathers lived in villages and from them I heard something completely different. (I’m not saying that there was no famine and people didn’t die, it just wasn’t what the current liberal shit-democrats describe).

[Yoshkin Kot]

Yeah, in what place did your grandfathers live?

[sergei]

according to my stories about grandmothers before the revolution, peasants lived no worse

[Maks111]

And in the camps they did not die in millions.

[Marek Rozny]

I have pre-revolutionary Russian newspapers. produced in St. Petersburg, 1908. In every daily issue on the first page it is daily reported: "Today in Odessa 4 people were executed, in Tiflis - 1 person, in Rostov - 2 people."

[Yoshkin Kot]

thieves, rapists and murderers, what should be elected to the workers 'and peasants' councils?

[Marek Rozny]

yes it turns out quite a bit too much "thieves, rapists and murderers." in 1907-1910 there was a peak of executions - 2-4 people daily.
And here is a quote:
“The practice of using the death penalty by PA Stolypin was sharply criticized by his contemporaries. So, S. Yu. Witte described this activity as follows: Stolypin“ executes in vain: for robbing a shop, for stealing 6 rubles, just out of misunderstanding ... to be a supporter of the death penalty, but the Stolypin regime abolished the death penalty and turned this type of punishment into simple murder, often completely meaningless, murder by mistake. "
LN Tolstoy described this practice in a similar way in the article "I Can't Be Silent", where it was described as corrupting the Russian people. "
The people became impoverished, and therefore had to go to crime in order to somehow survive.
I'm already talking about hard labor and just do not remind prisons.
You just want to say that in 1917 the Russian people lived a normal, satisfying and well-off?

[Sanches]

Marek Rozny (4) Today, 15:13

the people did not become impoverished, just as a result of the abolition of serfdom, carried out in 1861, a new class appeared - the unemployed (tramp). it is described in detail in Gorky. even from the point of view of Gorky, who himself was a tramp, there was no more dangerous rabble

[Marek Rozny]

Sanchez, yes, I have said a hundred times on the site that these tramps were sent to the Kazakh steppe under the Stolypin reform, so as not to create an excessive concentration of the protest masses in the European part of the empire. But right there the Russian citizens of the same forum think of them as "great educators of the Kazakh people"! That's what tsimes is about! Thousands of materials were written about what the Russian population of the late 19th century was like (and it was then that massive Russians appeared in the Kazakh steppe, before them there were only military men). But just some kind of shiz when it comes to the relationship between the Russian and Kazakh peoples during this period - the Russian interlocutor obstinately repeats the mantra "Russian people pulled you out of shit." And this causes surprise, irritation and misunderstanding.

[Sanches]

the enlightenment of the Kazakh people were the Kazakhs themselves, such values ​​as Altynsarin, Kunanbaev, Ualikhanov long before the Russians were resettled. smart people understand this anyway, but it's useless to argue with others

[aleksandroff]

you read about the bread riot. it becomes clear how the peasants lived. I am from Mordovia. it could be said outback. but if there was a crop failure the landowners themselves helped the peasants from the stocks. but then these landowners the red gopnik olkash who lived in the village and they were given the Nagans took away a noblewoman salova for example in an unknown direction. and the whole village cried, contrary to the opinion of the Communists. the grandmother said that they lived well. but when the gopniks came the last one was picked up.

[Marek Rozny]

I repent, I don’t know anything about the history of Mordovia, so I looked in the internet. Wikipedia hides the history of Mordovia and counts only since 1917. Therefore, I had to google a little. I found an abstract where in a concise form describes the social and economic situation of the Morodov region - http://gendocs.ru/v16123/%D1%88%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B3%D0% B0% D0% BB% D0% BA% D0% B8_

%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B4

%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B8?page=2
And what did I read there? The fact that since 1861 the peasants of Mordovia raised riots and killed landowners, that practically nothing was allocated from the budget for education, that there was high unemployment and that (I quote): "In general, the Mordovian Territory continued to remain a backward area. " I did not look at the period of the civil war. I am more interested in the period from 1861 to 1917 here (since this is the period when the photographs of the article under discussion were taken).

[aleksandroff]

no need to read nonsense. the riot was at Pugachev. he came here. and I told you about the outback. but not according to books, but according to older people. wrote and write all shit now. because no one believes that in Mordovia the roads were excellent already in the 90s, and even in the villages. and gas everywhere in backward Mordovia was already in the 90s in any of the three houses of the village. even in the suburbs there is no gas properly.

[Marek Rozny]

I don’t consider the Pugachev period at all. photographs here end of the 19th - beginning of the 20th centuries (until 1917). This period interests me. and the leap to the 18th century or the civil war of the 20th century is not quite the topic.

[Nagaibak]

Max111 "And in the camps millions did not die."
Do not limit their imagination. It is necessary so not millions, but hundreds of millions perished in the camps. It’s closer to them.

[Maks111]

In any case, they did not even die of starvation in the millions, as was the case with the alliance until the 50s

[Marek Rozny]

look for info about hunger in the Russian Empire. You will be unpleasantly surprised. In the photo, the starving Bashkirs, 1912. He deliberately did not post photos of the Russian starving people, so that they would not accuse me of exposing the Russian people to only those who were starving. If desired, you will find such photos within five minutes.

or read here - http://silvergoat.ucoz.ru/publ/golod_evropa_rossija_povolzhe_samara/1-1-0-21-XNUMX

[Yoshkin Kot]

hungry? with a cow carcass ???
in RI, the last serious famine was in 1890, when people died, and then from cholera, and not from malnutrition, weary of Bolshevik false propaganda

[Marek Rozny]

read what is written under the picture. and where did you find the "Bolshevik propaganda" in the 1912 newspaper? Have you confused it with the Iskra newspaper?
find this newspaper online, the rest of the photos show a bunch of hungry people from Orenburg, Volga.

[Maks111]

Yah. And you walked about how many people starved to death in the early 20th century. And then like zombies Lenin, Stalin, Beria, the Soviet empire.

[Marek Rozny]

about Lenin, Stalin, Beria and the Soviet empire, only you especially remember here. The rest are trying to talk about the period of tsarist Russia. no one argues that in the 20-30s the worst cases of famine happened in Soviet Russia, moreover, this was mentioned before you. only we are talking about the period until 1917.
do you want to prove that people before the revolution lived happily and freely? it's not like that at all. even anti-communist white emigres never wrote in their memoirs to fantasies about the well-fed Russian people in tsarist times. on the contrary, they scolded the dead king for bringing the people to a state below the baseboard.

[Sanches]

Marek Rozny (4) Today, 13:32
http://silvergoat.ucoz.ru/publ/golod_evropa_rossija_povolzhe_samara/1-1-0-21

Marek, wildly sorry, but something is wrong with the link. Under this inscription - "According to unspecified data, these old postcards are evidence of the 1911 famine in the Russian Empire. One of them can be said for sure - it was issued by the Universal Postal Union, which Russia joined in 1874" - these are the posters:

The question is clearly ideological, leading to a dead end, and it is better to leave the ancestors alone. It is better to remember the good that both modes left us, and not look for what they did wrong.
PS: Yes, and the fact that such a creepy photograph was printed in the "illustrated art-literary and humorous magazine with caricatures", it's just a pattern break

[Marek Rozny]

Sanchez, firstly, the scan of the magazine and the link are two different resources. I gave the link as additional information about the famine in the Russian Empire. And note that the link goes infa first about the famine in tsarist times, and then the sub-heading "Soviet Russia" begins, from where you pulled out these scans. You skipped that article's heading and got the timing wrong.
Secondly, the Iskra magazine contains many photographs of the famine that happened. By 1911, the magazine had been published for 12 years, and apparently before that it was really more entertaining. But in 1911 in the Volga region there was a great famine (not to be confused with the Hunger in the 20s) and the magazine came out with materials on a topical topic of the day.
And about the fact that you need to concentrate on the positive past - so I do not mind. Only first the "teachers of hygiene of ungrateful Kazakhs" should disappear. And there we will discuss more positive topics with pleasure. And it turns out a game with one goal. It is possible and necessary to mention the Russian people in a positive context, but absolutely not in a negative one (even if it was so). But the Kazakhs can be here daily to insult with lumps, savages, dull, dirty shepherds with olfactory trousers and ungrateful creatures and to spit, demanding "gratitude", etc. All the words I wrote - I encountered on the site today. These words hang quietly. Nobody deletes them, the authors are not banned. One gate play.

[Sanches]

for Kazakhs are part of this past, it is impossible to separate the Kazakh people from Soviet power, even impossible from tsarist power - the Kazakhs held fairly high posts in both civilian and military service long before the revolution. and if someone offends the Kazakh people, it’s not of great mind, on this site there is no people who have not yet offended, and the Russian people are also often offended by Jews, Caucasians, each other, and Europeans indiscriminately. moderators delete such posts after some time and issue

[aleksandroff]

reading a spark is the same as reading amer propaganda against us. and don’t yet know who it is. Now homeless people can be photographed and betrayed that all Russians live like that. that's about what the spark was doing.

[Marek Rozny]

alexandroff, this is not Iskra, but Iskra - these are two different media.

[vladimirZ]

How different it is that you see before you rich and prosperous peasants. The terrible poor and the nakedness, who after the revolution literally in 20 years were pulled out of poverty by the "Marxists". And the children of these beggars have all received education and a normal decent life for people.

[Orik]

It is only necessary to take into account that in the same 20 years a fundamental change occurred in the world economy, when the bio-chemical energy of people and horses was replaced by the energy of hydrocarbons. This transition has largely determined changes in the severity of labor, productivity, the ability to create large surpluses of products in all areas of production.

[Yoshkin Kot]

Jews returned Marxists from poverty? can these be?

[Marek Rozny]

Attribute the photo, if it’s not difficult for you.

[clinic1]

On the contrary! They also blame Stalin for industrialization ...!

[Legate]

I love old photographs, I always look at them for a long time, trying to catch every little thing, understand the feelings of the people depicted on them. So a simple photograph turns into a time machine.

[Marek Rozny]

Strange, here, in every post about the CIS, Russians write that this Stolypin illiterate barefoot / bastard venom taught all neighbors how to progress (including bowel skills). Although the pre-revolutionary Russian researchers of Turkestan Potanin and Kharuzin wrote that the steppes stood at a higher cultural level than the Russian immigrants. Not to mention that the Kazakhs were trite richer than the Cossacks and immigrants.
Plus, I put it for the material, for the fact that the author was not afraid to expose Russia in non-printed form. History - as it is. There were Russian engineers, there were brilliant balls of the nobles, there was a wonderful Russian opera, but the vast majority of the Russian people are in these photographs.

[Fox]

Quote: Marek Rozny

Kazakhs were trite richer than Cossacks and immigrants

Kazakhs, as a nation, appeared in the early 30s, with the light hand of Kaganovich, and before that there were kaisaks, nomads, who shit in their pants.

[Marek Rozny]

hey you fox! and his other comrades. if you don’t know anything, it’s better to be silent in a rag (well, or in pants that the nomads have told you about).
The Kazakh Khanate was formed in the second half of the 15th century. And the fact that the Russian Kazakhs (self-name - "Kazakh") called for their convenience Kyrgyz, Kyrgyz-Kaisak - these are the problems of the Russian language, which does not have enough letters to convey other people's phonemes.
In the Kazakh language there is no word "Russian", there is only the word "orys". But I don’t conclude that the Russian people do not exist, but, they say, there are only orys. And among them there are such ignoramuses as you.
Watch the bazaar, "ethnographer".

[dark_65]

Well, yes, a small zhuz, an average zhuz, a big zhuz ... a khanate, there were a lot of them, and I do not demand love for Russia for life, but I have to remember. If it weren’t for Russia, it’s an oryss ... where the khanate ended ... .

[Marek Rozny]

do you even know what division into zhuzes is, one more ethnographer? ))))) these are not states, and not peoples, this is actually the territorial and economic division of the Kazakh Khanate. The youngest zhuz lives in the Caspian region, the middle zhuz lives in the steppes, the elder zhuz lives in the cities. And although the ruler of the zhuz was called a khan, but by status he stood below the khan of the entire Kazakh khanate. The president of the country is above the governor of the region. And if the khan of one zhuz could have political graters with the khan of another zhuz (but there have never been any wars between zhuz), then before the general khan, the rulers of the zhuz shut up. The Khan of the Kazakh Khanate is the main boss, so to speak.
and no "khanate, there were many of them." The Kazakh Khanate was one. Maybe you wrote so stupidly, remembering other people's Uzbek khanates? There, yes, each major city was a separate state - Kokand, Khiva, Bukhara.
And why are your words about "remember it is necessary. If not for Russia"? What to remember? What is Russia? "Where" would the Kazakh Khanate end? A thick hint of mythical protection from the Dzungars, Chinese and other peoples? :))) Thank you, we coped completely without Russia. They did not receive the promised help from Russia. I had to deal with the Dzungars without you. But we remember that the TSB in Soviet times calmly wrote that Russia supplied the Dzungars with firearms through the city of Kuznetsk. "Thank you" that Russia did not have atomic bombs then, otherwise they would have sold the bombs to our enemies.
Well, the Chinese do not need to scare us either. In those centuries, the Chinese themselves went into slavery among the Manchus. And China has not made any conquests in recent centuries of empires. In the same way, I can demand gratitude from Russia for the fact that the Kazakhs did not allow the Thai people to seize Russia))))) Did the Thais capture the Russian Empire? No? So tell us, Kazakhs, thank you)))))
Dark, tie up nonsense to write if you don’t know our story)

[aleksandroff]

All the same, I advise you not to read the amers and our liberals submitted literature. if it were so bad Russia would not be so big. and every peasant had a bathhouse, albeit in black. and when my father decided to build a bathhouse with his own hands, he almost fell into the zone. in general, Russians lived very prosperously before the revolution, read about products until 1913. England was far from us. European historians speak of this, though with sarcasm.

[Marek Rozny]

where does amer ???
Alexey Nikolaevich Kharuzin (February 24, 1864 - May 8, 1932) - Russian ethnographer and anthropologist, statesman. He was subjected to repression since 1927, and after repeated imprisonment he died of a heart attack. Came from a wealthy merchant family.
Ivan Lukyanovich Solonevich (November 1 (13), 1891, the village of Rudniki, Pruzhany district, Grodno province, Russian Empire - April 27, 1953, Montevideo, Uruguay) - Russian publicist, thinker, historical writer and public figure. He was widely known as the author of books about the USSR and theorist of monarchism. Member of the White movement, died in exile in Uruguay. Nationality - Belarus (just in case)
Where did you find the trail of the USA or the liberals?
2) As for the "black" bathhouse, I did not understand at all what it was said for. Is this a sign of wealth, literacy, or satiety?
3) As for the "prosperity" of the peasants - give specific sources, not just words. I am also ready to hear from you about the industry on the eve of WWI - how much and what has Russia exported abroad and from what year. And also at the same time I would like to know why Russia bought weapons from backward Europe and America (from ships and tanks to rifles and helmets), and what sarcastic European historians do you mean exactly?

[aleksandroff]

and you don’t know that from the time of Columbus our guns and muskets were delivered to Europe. already then we poured cast iron which the Angles did not really know how to do. but about amers, so it’s been a lot of liberals from the 90s who inspired us about our pity. the bathhouse is prosperity and culture, which was in Russia in the Middle Ages, but was not in Europe, and they died from pestilence in the mud. and Europe in all respects, Russia did. that's why they tried and are trying to get rid of us as soon as Russia gets up. she wouldn’t be great if she were so backward

[Marek Rozny]

1) Yes, what are you? neighing to tears :)))) Well, tell us about how in the 15th century Prince of Moscow Ivan the Third began to export guns and muskets to Europe :))))))))
2) cast iron in Russia was cast only in the 18th century under Peter the Great (while cast iron itself has been flowing for almost 4000 years).
3) Well, I still do not understand about the bathhouse. well, yes, Russians washed themselves more often than Europeans of the early Middle Ages (but by the 19th century the situation had changed dramatically, Europeans were already very careful about hygiene, although Muslims were still far away who have a special interest in this subject, not only 5 times it’s necessary to wash all the members and face every day, but every time after the toilet.Muslims still do not spend a lot of toilet paper on their buttocks, preferring to wash everything clean with water, no matter what, God forbid). Only the presence of baths is absolutely not an indicator of prosperity (forests in Russia by ramparts, making a bathhouse and even a hut is not a problem) or a special height of culture in the 19th century. This could show off before the Europeans in the aforementioned Columbian 15th century, and in the 19th century the Europeans were already quite clean. and Turks or Finns would not have understood the reasons for their special pride ...

[vyatom]

It’s strange. Belarusian and theorist of monarchism. After the revolution, Belarusians wanted a separate state.

[nurker2]

Quote: Fox

Kazakhs, as a nation, appeared in the early 30s, with the light hand of Kaganovich, and before that there were kaisaks, nomads, who shit in their pants.

How much bile and hatred

[romb]

Regarding the lack of Kazakhs:
http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_lan_97.php

If it works, find a scan. manuscripts in Farsi "Tarikh-i Safaviye". It describes in great detail who and how really shit in his pants from the mere mention of the name of Kasym (Kazakh Khan) :)))

[Marek Rozny]

Rhombus, eastern (Iranian in this case) sources for Russians are not quoted. Moreover, the chronicle speaks of the relationship of five hundred years ago of Kazakh khans with Uzbeks and the conquest of Iranian territories. The Russians do not need this info. They prefer to believe that the Kazakhs appeared in the 30s of the 20th century, because the appearance of a nation depends on how they are called by Russians, it turns out :))))
Moreover, here you can see that people are not interested in Russian sources on the topic either. I would say, "blessed is he who does not know": |

[romb]

You correctly pointed to this aspect. I even suspect that they gave me a minus, so, just in case: maybe there is something bad written about us (Russians). )))

[clinic1]

That's right!

[Marek Rozny]

Blade, before you catch the stupidity of a fox, read the pre-revolutionary Potanin and Kharuzin, where they write that the Russians in the Irtysh are assimilated under the influence of local Kazakhs, as those are much higher in cultural and material terms in comparison with Russian immigrants. Maybe then you stop believing in popular prints and pick up other people's nonsense.

[Marek Rozny]

(Irtyshskiye) Cossacks succumbed to the influence of the Kyrgyz people around them, that almost all the Cossack population speaks Kyrgyz and often prefers this language to their native language; for many, this is a lullaby, as babysitters are often chosen from Kyrgyzstan. Kyrgyz habits extend to the clothes and food of the Cossacks. Like Kyrgyzstan, the Irtysh Cossack likes to wear wide Plisov harem pants, a dressing gown from Bukhara brocade or locust and a fox hat (wrestling); he loves Kyrgyz national dishes, including horse meat ... In addition, many prejudices, understandings and convictions of the Kazak people were borrowed from the Kyrgyz people: he, like this last one, is ashamed to sit down on a horse and put on some clothes. .
In order to wage a successful struggle, the Russian must have learned from the Kyrgyz, and since the cultural level of the settled soldiers was not high, he should be attracted by the more luxurious clothes of the Bukhara brocade of the Kyrgyz people, and weapons, and horse decoration; Kyrgyz-stepnyak, being for the new settler the ideal of a rider, was supposed to subjugate the Russian element and influence his customs, manners, worldview and language. ... The Okirgizenie of Russians is explained mainly by the low cultural level of the last ...
(Alexey Nikolaevich Kharuzin, "On the question of the assimilation ability of the Russian people", 1894).

[Marek Rozny]

In fairness, it should be noted that Kharuzin also writes about the back process, when some Kazakhs got rid of it, when they became settled, but he immediately explains that the Irtysh Kazakhs were unfamiliar with sowing and therefore had to learn from the Russians. However, very soon they plowed better than the Russians who taught them, the author adds.

[Smoke]

Cossacks are now banned in the KZ .... and it was with the construction of fortresses along the Irtysh that the attacks of the Dzungars on Kazakh nomads stopped, it was only later that the Chinese cut all the dzungars to the root and now know no problems with territories and ethnic relations xDD Only Russians not Chinese in all conscience, the cautions still allow. And the fact that the Irtysh Cossacks borrowed clothes from the Kazakhs there is on the contrary good quality, and the Cossacks always had to know the languages ​​of the peoples living in the border zone, therefore they took nannies to teach .... so the Kuban and Don people had until the border moved over. The Terek Cossacks won the clothes and customs of the highlanders too

ps and yes, I hope that you and your hamster compatriots will reconsider their views on the history of relations between Russians and Kazakhs: were Russian colonialists harashy? They lived better than their colonized peoples, and even served, guarded by them.

[Marek Rozny]

Smoke, go into the fog. I already suggested to you to type in the search engine "Cossacks in Kazakhstan" for general development. The only thing that is not allowed to the Cossacks is to carry edged weapons, everything is according to the law. Exactly the same requirements for the rest of Kazakhstanis. Go google, "expert".
2) No Dzungarian raids after the Russian seizure of land for military fortresses did not stop. Kazakhs fought with the Dzungars until their physical extermination. The Kalmyks are still offended by the Kazakhs because the Kazakhs prettyly crushed Oirats without pity. In addition, no Chinese fought at all with the Dzungars. Maybe you are confusing with the Manchurians (relatives of the Tungus)? The Chinese were conquered by the Manchus themselves (Qing Empire). It can be seen that you grabbed the tops, but did not delve into the essence. The Manchus - yes, for their part they cut out the Dzungars, Kazakhs - with their own. But the Russians and Chinese have nothing to do with it. By the way, the Dzhungars were Russian subjects who were promised military protection. Well, and how did Russia save the jungar? Do you want to tell?
3) The main part of the territory of the Dzungaria occupied by the Kazakhs. The Manchurians lacked the strength and (paradoxically) people to develop the Dzungarian lands. Moreover, the Qing Empire itself was falling apart due to its problems. Plus, from the sea, the Europeans drew themselves.
4) Have you carefully read the passage of the ethnographer? He writes that the Russian Cossacks assimilated under Kazakh influence, because they stood at a lower level of culture than the Kazakhs. You didn’t notice the elephant.
5) And what kind of joy is it for the Kazakhs when a "colonizer" comes who does not even have shoes? And from whom did you protect the Kazakhs?)))) Do you even know why Russia sent a bunch of troops to Kazakhstan by the end of the 19th century? To protect the Russian immigrants-Stolypin from the European part of Russia, for whom the lands were taken from the Kazakh indigenous population. Again you, Dymok, out of place)))) Or do you think the Cossacks guarded the Kazakhs from the "Dzungars" and the Sarts?)))))) Or from the Chinese, to whom it was necessary to pass the Uyguria, which, although it was part of the Qing empire, but it was then inhabited only by the Turks, and then also to cross the desert)))) The Qing Empire and Uyguria practically only nominally kept it under its control. They actually lived there on their own, although there were a few officials from among the ethnic Chinese. And if I had delved into the history of the Uyguria, I would also have noticed that when the locals wanted to kick out the Imperials, they did it easily. Then, after the civil war between Mao and Chiang Kai Shi began in China, the Uyguria generally sent them all away and actually separated, creating an independent East Turkestan Republic. The Chinese appeared in our region en masse only in the 20th century. And then only in the second half))))) Istoreg)))

[Smoke]

In 1723, Tsevan-Rabdan waged successful wars with the Kazakhs, who attacked Oirat nomads from the east, as a result of which the Kazakhs lost vast territories in the region of Semirechye and lost to the Oirats of Tashkent and Turkestan. In 1725, the Dzhungars defeated the Karakalpaks.

From 1729 to 1737, the successor of Tsewan-Rabdan, Galdan-Tseren, waged war against Qing China, his task was to recapture Khalkha-Mongolia from China and unite it with Dzungaria. In 1730, Qing troops were defeated by Oirats near Lake Barkul, and in 1731 - in Altai. However, in 1732, the Qing army built a powerful fortress on the Dzungarian border in the tract Modon-Tsagan-kul, which served as the basis for its further operations. On August 23, 1732, the 30th Oirat army march eastward towards Tola and Kerulen, and on August 26 defeated the 22th enemy group near Mount Modon Khoton. The Oirats reached the residence of the head of the Lamaist church in Khalkh - Erdeni-Dzu Monastery, but were defeated there by Qing troops, but despite this the war continued until 1737. It became clear that it was impossible to solve the conflict by force of arms, neither side could inflict decisive defeat on the other. In 1739, Galdan made peace with Qing China on favorable terms.

1740-1743, the troops of Galdan Tseren made successful campaigns against the Kazakhs. As a result of the war, the Sultan of the Middle Zhuz Abylay was captured, and the Zhuz fell under the control of the Dzungars. The younger Zhuz joined the Russian Empire in order to protect against the Dzungars.

1755-1759 - The Third Oirat-Manchu War, the Dzungar Khanate was liquidated by the Qing Empire.

taken I confess from here (I didn’t particularly google once): http: //ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzhungarskoe Khanate

Kuri is a victim of Kazakh education, and yes, you can learn more about how the Dzungars were accepted into Russian citizenship

[Marek Rozny]

Well, already a plus, Smoke, began to delve into the topic.
1) Qing China and the Chinese are not the same thing. I repeat, the Chinese were a conquered people. The Qing empire was ruled by the Manchus, and the army was Manchu (the Kazakhs called them "rustle" from their ancient self-name "Jurchen"). This is to stop confusing the Qing empire and the Han Chinese.
2) This Wikipedia article does not really say anything about the Kazakh-Dzhungar wars, only the initial period is mentioned when the Dzungars really beat the Kazakhs, however, further attention is turned to their relations with the Manchzhurs, and the Kazakh front "dropped out" from the article. And hundreds of scientific books have been written on this topic, and there are many Russian and Soviet works on this topic. And it’s not clear why the editor of this article did not mention the Anyrakay battle, which is no less important for the Kazakhs than the Stalingrad battle for the history of the Second World War. The Dzungars were completely defeated by the Kazakhs even before the Manchurian extermination. The problems in Dzungaria so strongly shattered this state that several parties formed, some of which asked for help from the very Abylai, who was once held captive by the Dzungars, and some went over to the side of the Tsin. In fact, the state no longer existed; it disintegrated into parts hostile to each other. That is why, using some Dzungar politicians, the Tsin invaded from their side the devastated and helpless Dzungaria, and unhindered destroyed all the remaining Dzungars that were available to her.
The Qinans hoped to get the lands of the Dzungars, but faced with the Kazakhs, who also rightfully claimed these lands. As a result of the battles of 1756, the Manchus and Kazakhs switched to diplomatic relations. The Manchu people made it clear that the Dzungarian lands would remain with the Kazakhs. The Qinans demanded to recognize the formal vassality, which the Kazakhs agreed to, but the most paradoxical - the Kazakhs did not pay any taxes, the power of the Qin emperor did not actually extend to the Kazakhs, although Abylay formally recognized himself as their vassal. A strange situation, but it suited both sides - the Manchus did not have the strength to control the Kazakh steppe, and the Kazakhs, weakened by the centuries-old war with the Dzungars, did not need a new war. Dzungarian lands remained with the Kazakhs. Later, there were some incidents on the border up to the 20th century, but that’s why the border always happens, especially since the Qinans usually didn’t come from outside the borders themselves, but because the dependent inhabitants of Uyguria went to the Kazakh steppe, and demanded to return them. First, the Kazakhs sent three letters of the Manchu, and then the Russian Empire. The Qinans excreted with bricks, but they could not do anything, they and Uiguria could not even control, which regularly cut Qin garrisons during the riots.

[Marek Rozny]

And about the citizenship of the Dzungars - there is no definite date, these oirats were sworn in by different clans at different times in the 16th century, 17th century, 18th century, migrated from place to place, then from Dzungaria to Russian Siberia, then to the Volga, then back to Dzungaria. By the way, those who later did not leave the Volga for Dzungaria are now known to you as Kalmyks. These are the remains of the Dzungars. At a real meeting, ask a Kalmyk about their historical relationship with Kazakhs - until now we are for them we are "cruel evil offenders", and they are "white and fluffy innocent victims") Well, unless Sangadzhi from RUDN University does not say a bad word about Kazakhs, since his mother is Kazakh))))
In short, Smoke, if you are unable to carry on a conversation without Google and Wikipedia, then why bother? I understand if you would use these resources for additional purposes, but I see that you know absolutely nothing on this topic (I am not talking about others), you just heard somewhere that "the Russian Kazakhs were saved from the Dzungars", so you blurted out without thinking, and now you will waste your energy and time to try to defend your mistake. Just admit that Russia did not conduct any wars with the Dzungars, that it did not carry out any opposition to the Dzungars in the war against the Kazakhs, that Russia, on the contrary, only supplied weapons to the Dzungars and the dispute will be closed. What for do you protect someone's stupidity? Well, Russia did nothing to help the Kazakhs. Nothing. Absolutely. Russian Kazakhs were deeply give a damn about it. And the Khan of the Younger Zhuz Abulkhair simply wanted to become the khan of the Kazakh Khanate on Russian bayonets. Not that the other zhuzes did not understand him at that moment, his own people killed him for it. Abylai Khan later also nominally recognized the power of the Russian tsar, but in fact did not obey either the Manchus or the Russians, but pursued his own policy. Any claims of the overlords, he redirected to the other side. Tsintsev referred to Russians, Russians referred to Tsints. Both those and others tolerated this, since no one had a real opportunity to control the Kazakh Khanate. Until the abolition of the khan's power in the 19th century and the death of the last Kazakh khan Kenesary.
Do you have any questions - I will answer. And if you have a desire to argue for the sake of argument, then this is not very interesting to me with a person who confuses the Chinese with the Manchus.

[Smoke]

Loal))) The Kazakh hamster decided to teach me stories .... you still walked under the table, and for myself I already knew the difference between the Han Chinese and the Manchus, the only point is that by that time the Qin Empire had become CHINESE and HAN. By this time, the Manchu elite has completely adopted the customs of the Chinese Han Chinese, so in essence it’s just nit-picking your words, because you don’t take it out in the argument and start moving out like that: as it turns out, you can’t call AN ANY OWN FACT on loyalty to the Russian Tsar by the Dzungars, and at the same time you begin to drag Kalmyks here, who, according to customs, were very closely related to the Dzungars according to customs, BUT by this time Kalmyks migrated to the Volga steppes and BREAKED away (like Kazakhs from the Uzbeks) from the bulk of the Dzungar tribes. The Russian tsar essentially had no choice but to acknowledge the existence of the Kalmyks and take them into his nationality, while the Kalmyks began to play an important role as a counterweight to the Nogais Tatars Bashkirs and Don Cossacks. At the same time, Kalmyks occupied an area of ​​the territory that had long been under the jurisdiction of the Russian Tsar, but the Dzungars occupied completely different territories, thousands of kilometers east of the Kalmyks. But as for the kzakhs, then this is a completely different matter. The Kazakhs of the Dzhungars began to strengthen so much that the Kazakh nation itself was under the BAAAAl question, Abulkhair Khan himself and voluntarily asked under the jurisdiction of Russia - then at that time it was enough to get protection, because at that time no one wanted to fight with Russia. And there whether Khan Abulkhair wanted to become a khan of all Kazakhs or not, it’s already the tenth case, maybe he probably wanted to, but it’s all irrelevant, so don’t drag left-handed questions here, cutlets separately and flies separately.

[Marek Rozny]

Smoke, I have no idea how much you are, just like you are unfamiliar with my biography. All your arguments are reduced to a banal grumbling and undisguised chauvinism. Plus you constantly write all sorts of stupid things about history, while you are not at all embarrassed when they point out your grossest mistakes and unsubstantiated speculations.
It is absolutely stupid to call the Manchu dynasty Chinese, just as it is stupid to call the Golden Horde a Russian state only on the basis that part of the Russian lands was part of the Horde. The Qin dynasty was Manchu, the conquering army consisted of Manchus. Take it easy with your Chinese people. You just dodge and are ready to stick any argument in order to somehow try to seem smart in this matter. You don't know the history of the Russian people, but you are trying to get into the jungle of the history of neighboring states. Turn off Google and wiki and there will be just a small-grained showik with moronic slogans "I taught everyone to poop" and "I taught everyone to fuck." I well remember how you told the "ungrateful" Kazakhs about your services in the field of enlightened defecation.
Secondly, Kalmyks are pure Dzungars. Why are you stupid writing about "kinship"? According to your logic, the inhabitants of Tambov and the inhabitants of Yaroslavl are not one ethnos, but closely related peoples ... Or will you tell about the difference in the language and culture of medieval Kalmyks and Dzungars? I think that such fabrications will tear your, as you like to say, "hamster" mind.
In addition, do not build the Russian state by the cornered appearance of "Kalmyks", they say, there was nothing left to do but to recognize their existence and, therefore, accepted into Russian citizenship. Russian tsarist ambassadors with a proposal to accept the shert (oath of allegiance to the Russian state) themselves went to Dzungaria much more often than the Dzungars to Moscow and St. Petersburg. And the number of Russian Dzungars began to constantly increase due to the continuous transition of new clans under Russian rule. And you make a moron out of the king - thousands of foreign nomads entered his country and the frightened king was forced to give them citizenship ... He put the cart in front of the horse. The Kazakhs gave the nickname "Kalmak" directly to those Dzungars who eventually left under the Russian hand. But they did not cease to be the Dzungars from this, and in 1771 they began to migrate to the liberated Dzungar lands (one of the reasons is the tightness of the Volga pastures). Russia was indifferent to the fact that these Russian Dzungars were mostly killed by the Kazakhs, who did not care that these Dzungars were subjects of Russia, and did not belong to some Tsewan-Rabtan. Dzungarin, period. And that means - an enemy for a Kazakh. Russian sources simply recorded the fact of the mass beating of the Dzungars, but Russia did not take any action - neither to protect its subjects, nor to punish the murderers of its Russian Dzungars (yes, they were going to leave for Qin, but after all, they did not formally leave the Russian jurisdiction, the agreement was not broken). There is no need to represent the Kalmyks of the 18th century as a separate people or even a closely related people. This is one ethnic group.

[Marek Rozny]

And Russia did not defend its Russian Dzungars. And just watched with satisfaction as the two steppe peoples were destroying each other. Russia did nothing to protect the Kazakhs from the Dzungars and Manchus. Absolutely. Shove your conjectures that allegedly "Russia saved the Kazakhs" somewhere deep and calm down. Well, or at least try to give examples :)))))))))) Your main task is to prove that "Kazakhs should be grateful for the Russian protection from the Dzungars"))))) Forward, istoreg!
And it’s better not to write about Kazakhs and Uzbeks either)))) Because for you an Uzbek of the 21st century and an Uzbek of the 15th century are the same thing) To say that the Kazakhs descended from the Uzbeks is the same as writing that the Russians descended from the Ukrainians, migrated from Kiev to the Finnish forests))))
And your speculation that all the neighbors were afraid of the fact of accepting Russian citizenship of the Kazakhs does not withstand even the slightest criticism. The Qinans invaded deeply into the Kazakh steppe and the Kazakhs themselves had to fight with them. Russia did not even concoct a note to the Qing emperor, not to mention sending troops to defend the Kazakhs)))) There was no benefit from Russia. And the Dzungars did not care about Russia, and the Qinans. All parties conducted their bilateral policy with the Kazakhs, without even noticing the existence of Russia.
And since such a booze started, I can remember to a heap how Russia "saved" the Nogai from the Ottoman influence so that the whole steppe was white with their bones for a long time. Suvorov not only wandered around the Alps, he also faithfully otgenocid entire nations, so that from the Crimea to the Caucasus the land was empty for Russian settlers. The remaining crumbs of the Nogai people are so "grateful" to Russia for their protection from the Ottomans!))))) And before that, Russia also pitted the Dzungars against the Nogais. And nibbled on popcorn, looking at this action of her subjects.

[Smoke]

Oh, how ...)) in terms of chauvinism, I still have to study and study with you .... soon the Turks will become the founders of Kiev fathers there)))

1. Was there an embassy from Khan Abulkhair asking for citizenship and protection from the Dzungars? It was.
2. Kalmyokv cited Ayuk Khan if I am not mistaken, brought in the 17th century, when Russia waged almost continuous wars after the Time of Troubles and was militarily extremely weak and could not oust the Kalmyks from the steppe, and why? The Moscow politicians of that time were extremely profitable for the appearance in the steppes of a new NET-LANGUAGE people. who accepted citizenship ensured the supply of horses and light cavalry to the Russian troops, Kalmyks considered everything from the Nogays to the Cossacks, who would soon raise an uprising of Stenka Razin. Yes, at that time the Kalmyks were jungars according to the customs according to customs, but they had already been KIDNEYED - in fact, they had become a different people.
3. As for the citizenship of the Dzungars: you again did not bring a single fact that the Dzhungars were under the jurisdiction of Russia. Just because it wasn’t)) Yes there were embassies, even the Russian gunners were in the Dzungars, but Dzungaria was an INDEPENDENT state.
4. The Nogais were punished by Suvorov for their loyalty to the Ottoman Empire - the main enemy and main military opponent of Russia at that time. Neither the Bashkirs, nor the Kazan Tatars, this RETURN has not touched. Suvorov did not roll cotton wool - lured almost the entire NOGAY ELITE into the gorge and punished everyone there. I repeat for you on purpose - only ELITE. After that, the Nogais SUDDENLY became allies of Russia and even fought against the Turks. The Nogai genocide was not included in the task of Suvorov, the task was to restore order and fulfill the oath of the Empire given earlier, which Suvorov did. If there was a task to cut ALL Nogais to the root - believe me. the task would be completed, but you know better than the great historian all the Türks))
4. I was always touched by how fiercely the Kazakhs get bored when they are ranked among the Uzbeks ... tell me dear and who are you? They began to call you Kazakhs only in the 20th century - before that, they were always listed in the Kyrgyz)) Kazakh khans split from the Uzbeks (I’m considering the territorial aspect here) and declared themselves Kazakhs ...
5. The Qinets invaded only until the borders were settled, while neither the Qinans nor Russia was profitable: the Qinans believed that they would manage to grab a larger piece, Russia generally had to spit out who the territories of the Semirechye would be under, as long as the troubled tribes of nomads were under control .... neither Russia, so at least Tsintsev. But it turned out as it turned out and I think that if the Seven Rivers were to be taken by the Qinans, then they would not have smelled of Kazakhs there now, just as they did not smell of the Dzungars in Xinjiang.
6. Yes, at the time of the Conquest, the Manchu of China's army was Manchu. And then ..... these Chinese are such an arode)) they all assimilate and dissolve in themselves, for the Manchus were nomads with a low level of production culture - therefore, dissolution was inevitable. And by the time of the liquidation of the Dzungarian state in the army of the Manchus, only the officers and the personal guard were directly Manchus. The bulk of the troops were Han Chinese and the commands in this army were given in Chinese and orders were written in Chinese characters.
Pak is a victim of the great Turkic education, you are tired of me))

[Marek Rozny]

1) Keep quiet about chauvinism, you are yelling about how you taught everyone to go to the toilet, although at the same time you even write with childhood mistakes. Among your messages, you can rip out a bunch of messages for which you can be prosecuted for "incitement". Calm down.
2) Did someone argue about the embassy of Abulhair? What do you mean?
3) Are you fooling or really do not understand the difference between Dzungars and Dzungaria? I wrote about the Dzungars, who took Russian citizenship, and not about the state. To find the dates - just stupidly type in the search engine "Dzungars (Oirats; Kalmaks - whatever is more convenient for you) + Shert" - you will instantly find the information you are interested in about accepting Russian citizenship.
4) The Nogais were almost completely exterminated. And by deception, when they gave the Nogai a corridor to migrate to a new place, but in fact they attacked and exterminated. Not the elite, but the whole nation as a whole. Those legs survived that at that moment did not take part in the migration, but obeyed various rulers, and a small part escaped from Suvorov. Is it embarrassing for you to read and find out that Suvorov was not such a good hero as they told us at school? Well, be ashamed of it. If you prefer to perceive your story only in a glamorous color, then these are the problems of your psychology.
5) Butchert in your ass look. The Uzbek of the 15th century was ABSOLUTELY no different from other nomads who became Kazakhs of the sultans Janibek and Girey. Those who were then called Uzbeks were subordinate to Abulkhair (not the one who was the Khan of the Younger Zhuz in the 19th century). When Abulkhair died, almost all "Uzbeks" went to the Steppe to Janibek and Giray and reunited with their relatives. The nation was not divided (and the concept of Uzbek practically disappeared from the 15th to the 20th century, since practically no one called themselves that name, except for a tiny ethnic group of several tens of thousands of people, despite the fact that there were several million Kazakhs). And on the territory of modern Uzbekistan, the bulk lived - called SARTY, plus Tajiks. And since the 20th century they have been called Uzbeks, although they have nothing to do with medieval Uzbeks either genetically or culturally. It is a sedentary "Tajik-like" ethnic group. And 99% of Russians do not know and do not understand that the Uzbek of the 15th century is a completely different nation, and not the one that now walks in colorful robes and square skullcaps, selling melons in the bazaar. These are sarts actually, not Uzbeks. To pretend like you say that the Kazakhs descended from the Uzbeks is the same as constructing absurd proposals like "Russians descended from Soviet ones." And even geographically, you will cut the garbage anyway, because in 1897, in fact, only Sarts, Kazakhs and Tajiks lived on the territory of modern Uzbekistan, and ... a tiny ethnic group that called itself Uzbeks, but was no different from the Kazakhs. The fact that you were on a business trip in the Pavlodar region during the Soviet era does not make you an expert in Central Asian ethnography.
6) The Qinans stopped invading the Kazakh steppe after the Abylay embassy traveled to Beijing and ended the war. Russia has nothing to do with it.
7) The army of the Manchu at the time of the wars with the Kazakhs was precisely Manchu, and not Chinese in ethnic terms. Do not bother all in a heap, they came around later, when the war with the Kazakhs ended.
Z.Y. The most important thing is that now you even begin to understand history a little))) And at the beginning you didn’t know anything at all)))) You look, soon you’ll start writing better than me :))))

[Smoke]

1. and what I wrote wrong about the level of development of the Kazakhs is not it? or do you seriously think that the Kazakhs were above the level of cultural technical scientific development in Russia?) Are you a fool chtoli? When you start the ships into space to launch on their own, then you’ll spread your fingers here about which Kazakhs are advanced ok? Once again, I repeat to you Druk: the Russian Kazakhs exaggeratedly speaking you to write against the wind weaned ... cut it on your nose. Sharp? offensive? You’ll survive anything, shake it on the mustache.

2. You again pretend to be a fool chtoli .... one of the reasons for the embassy of Abulkhair was precisely the military defeat of the Kazakhs from the Dzungars.
3. I always make a connection of the people to a certain TERRITORY of residence of this people. In Germany, the Germans, in Africa - the blacks, in the Dzungaria - the Dzungars, is that understandable? The Oirat tribes wandered their business somewhere there ... migrated to live on the territory of Russia - please submit to the tsar’s authority, don’t like to bring down the opposite, but Nowhere and never heard that Dzungaria asked to take under the protection of Russia.
4. Genocide implies TOTAL annihilation, without any reservations such as practically, etc. I crossed paths with the Nogais in the north - the guys plow, sow, remember about the races, everyone told me about how their horse won the Nazarbayev Cup, they didn’t forget their tongue, they live in the stavropol region in the region of Neftekumsk .... in general, everything is fine with them don't worry about them don't worry.
5. For those who are from an armored train: part of the Uzbek khans broke away from the central government, which was located in what is now Uzbekistan, and began to call themselves Kazakhs. The process of folding the ethnic group went more complicated, then later the remnants of the Dzungars migrated to the Kazakhs, but in fact everything looked just like that. What then happened on the territory of Uzbekistan is already the tenth thing ... Sarts are not Sarts Tajiks are not Tajiks, the fact is that the ORIGINAL center of power of Central and Central Asia was located in Uzbekistan.
6. Well, Russia has nothing to do with it, absolutely nothing to do with it ... Ablai was spinning like a frying pan between Russia and Beijing ...))
7. Well, you can bleat !!! BINGO !!! As soon as the war with the invincible and legendary Kazakhs ended, the Manchu army suddenly got around !! And before that, no matter what you are ....)))
Thank you, the great history connoisseur, for the praise of my adriz, teach me to be as cool as you, spread the story about how Kazakhs in Egypt bought the pyramid of Khufu, tell about the secret of secrets of the founding of Kiev about the great! tear the covers !! Everyone is eager to SEE about Vilik thanks to you !!

[Marek Rozny]

The Russians taught everyone to piss and poop correctly, except you ... I got it with my chauvinism. Go to the toilet and enjoy the bowel movements. To argue with you is a waste of time. I wish you brains and literacy, you have the rest, I hope, everything is there.

[Smoke]

Goodbye ... suitcase train station Istanbul))

[aleksandroff]

damn now I will know that the Russians came from the Kazakhs. Amer rewrote your story chtoli?

[Marek Rozny]

alexandroff, where did you see my words about the origin of the Russians ???

[aleksandroff]

I'm exaggerating this, I'm sorry.

[romb]

Shhh .. - don't destroy the "legend" ...

[Nurius]

The number of minuses exposed to you shows how many chauvinistic (and even neo-Nazi) contingents are present on the site, alas, there are not a few of them .. Even I am a supporter of integration, I began to hesitate, can we still live with such people without integration?

[Marek Rozny]

Nurius, you read my mind. I have the same thing in my head. He is also an ardent supporter of integration, but it is difficult not to pay attention to the number of Natsiks in the ally country. But damn, where ours did not disappear? ;) The game is worth the candle :) We need a union, and the Internet is for the Internet to quarrel and swear) In real life, usually Kazakh and Russian easily converge :)

[vyatom]

Yes, you started boiling with your Kazakhs. not about them at all. calm down.

[Marek Rozny]

what an aggressive reaction)))) do not like it when the myth of enlightened Russians and stupid poor nomads is refuted? although in your comments around there are only "chocks", "bulbashi", "shameful psheki", "German slut" and others.
and my speech is just about notorious nationalism, and about the fact that studying your own history helps to look at yourself and your neighbors in a different way, and establish a normal dialogue. otherwise you will really turn into insular Britain in mentality, which has no allies other than "army and navy". Russia is not Britain, and with such a psychology (and geography) it won't get far. Even its own border will not be able to close completely along the perimeter. The language must be found in common, and not throwing poop. That's why I started this topic.

[ken]

All earned, with many years and ten years of exhaustion on their faces, even children have such faces. Work from morning to night from the age of six, dirt, illiteracy, unsanitary conditions, that’s all life. And it’s kind of well-off photographed. Material for work and not people.

[djon3volta]

Now, if I had a time machine, I would know what I would have done? I returned around 1939, asked to be accepted by Comrade Stalin, I think people would have understood by my clothes that I was not like everyone else. Let Stalin accepted me, here I stand in front of him, there are all sorts of higher ranks, I begin to tell that in 1991 the USSR will collapse, which will contribute to the United States and the West, as proof I will give Stalin LCD TV 42 "and a computer, there I will show the entire top of the USSR the video that I will bring with me, I will show who Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Khrushchev are. I will give evidence that Techcher wants only 15 million Russians left, as the American presidents wanted to bomb the USSR several times with nuclear bombs, I will also tell you about Putin, but only good. Then I will suggest Stalin to destroy the USA and England nuclear bombs, which I will deliver (no matter how, but Stalin will have them), I will provide 3-4 Tu-160 and 2 Tu-95 for these purposes. I will tell you that if we do not destroy the United States and England, it will be as I showed on video and told Stalin e will naturally accept my offer. I will say that it is better to bomb the USA with nuclear bombs at 50 mgt.

[Hon]

Comrade Yezhov would have welcomed you

[dark_65]

Not, this to the Institute of the brain immediately, an interesting instance.

[Evgan]

That is, would you like that in 1939, millions of that way 300 people died at a time, most of whom are innocent? Churchill is a lamb of God compared to you ...
Are you not afraid of a nuclear winter? And the global impact of your atomic explosions on the environment - including ours?
Thatcher, of course, something was bad there under his breath, the amers made plans for the nuclear bombing of the USSR - but they had enough brains to keep these plans only on paper.
And the photographs are really interesting. They are honest working people who cannot but respect

[Astrey]

I am making a proposal - to ban the "3volta" author from using a time machine for a period longer than 10 years.

[atalef]

Quote: Astrey

I am making a proposal - to ban the "3volta" author from using a time machine for a period longer than 10 years.

He is there in the same room as Einstein and Napoleon - it is they who influence him so much.

[Botanologist]

No, we are the empire of Good!
And not an empire, we are evil,
as we heard here yesterday
from one here we goat ...


In short, minus John 3 volts

[atalef]

Quote: djon3volta

in the 1939 year, Comrade Stalin asked me to accept me, I think people would understand by clothing that I’m not like everyone else.

The people would understand, and probably would first accept comrade Beria

Quote: djon3volta

Stalin accepted me, so I stand in front of him, there are all sorts of top officials right there, I begin to tell that in the 1991 the USSR will fall apart

Enemy of the people, Art. 58 (parts of 1, 2, 5, 7)

Quote: djon3volta

as proof, I will give Stalin LCD TV 42 "and a computer

Production Samsung and Lenovo - and then they shoot you (as an enemy, already the first night)

Quote: djon3volta

Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Khrushchev. I will give evidence that Techcher wants only 15 millions of Russians left

Apparently, Khrushchev will also be killed this night, as well as the parents of Gorbachev and Yeltsin. (Poisoned with Thatcher polonium)

Quote: djon3volta

I’ll tell you about Putin, but only good

You will tell the bad during interrogation with addiction , so it’s better to keep quiet about Putin, otherwise who knows how it will turn. Although if Yeltsin. Khrushchev and Gorbochev will be killed in the bud --- Putin will not be needed.

Quote: djon3volta

Stalin to destroy the United States and England with nuclear bombs that I deliver (no matter how, but they will be with Stalin), I will provide 3-4 TU-160 and 2 TU-95 for these purposes. I will say that if we do not destroy the USA and England, then there will be as I showed on the video and told

From pancake as it happens.

Quote: djon3volta

Stalin will naturally accept my proposal. I will say that it is better to bombard the United States with nuclear bombs in 50 MGT.

He will consult with Sakharov (this is his project * Puff). Well then you, of course, to Stalin and to Sakharov’s eyes open and ....
Well it’s so buggy. He laughed.

[ass hole]

Good thing you don’t have a time machine.
However, Stalin would not accept your proposal for the US bombing. He was a sane person.

[Andrey58]

And if I had a time machine, I would return to the year 1900 and, according to the list, would liquidate the entire top of the Bolsheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries.

[djon3volta]

Well, by the answers you can immediately see on whose side you are, all those who answered my post. It’s easy to determine when you throw in a terrible fantasy, where the Russian will remain, and those who are against the Russians die.

[Yoshkin Kot]

Well, long ago they were discharged from the hospital?

[ISI]

Loved the selection. It is a pity that there are no signatures for the photo - where it is taken, when, who is in the photo. I ask you to continue the publication of such photos, it is advisable to give more for the CIS countries, for Kazakhstan, for example

[Marek Rozny]

I have a photo of Kazakhs of the 19th and early 20th centuries. but there are few of them, more sketches of ethnographers. they were made fairly accurate. plus a lot of textual descriptions of the external decoration of Kazakh outfits. everywhere, without exception, Russian authors emphasize sufficient wealth, artistic beauty and hygienic cleanliness of the clothes of the steppes (even among the poor). at the same time, the appearance of Russians, Altaians and other peoples is often compared (without exception, for the worse to them).
when photography came more or less firmly into everyday life, Kazakhs apparently were no longer interesting to Russian ethnographers, because During the 18th, and especially the 19th century, Kazakhs were already well described by Orientalist travelers in their journalistic and scientific works for the Russian reader. Is that Prokudin-Gorsky left a few more pictures. Although some people look like Uzbeks, despite the fact that the photographer claims that they are supposedly Kazakhs.
In almost all the images, Kazakhs look quite cheerful and wealthy people, but the photographs of the 20s and 30s are simply awful. The people were completely impoverished. Most of the population died after weaning livestock and material values. The steppe became depopulated. Remaining after collectivization, "small October", forced resettlement, dispossession (and almost all Kazakhs ended up in the rank of bays, since even a poor Kazakh had more cattle than a well-to-do kulak in Russia), repressions slipped to the bottom. Instead of clothes, there are torn rags, there are no more jewelry, faces are scared and haggard. Such photos only now began to float to the Internet, in Soviet times they did not fit into the thesis about the prosperity brought by the Bolsheviks to the "oppressed byi" Kazakh people.

[nurker2]

Quote: Marek Rozny

I have a photo of Kazakhs of the 19th and early 20th centuries. but there are few, more sketchings of ethnographers.

Salam, fellow countryman. Happy New year to you. This is me that nurker. Can you share these photos?

[Marek Rozny]

easily, email me in PM.
ps happy New Year!)

[Marek Rozny]

By the way, if anyone will really prepare material on this topic - write to me, I will send a bunch of information on the Kazakhs of the 19-20 centuries.

[aleksandroff]

their travelers specifically asked to dress normally in weekend clothes, here we see people at the factory. for the holidays they were not photographed for some reason, which means another propaganda.

[Marek Rozny]

alexandroff - some kind of Jesuit logic. if a Kazakh is in leather boots, it means propaganda. if Russian is barefoot, it means that the production process ...

[aleksandroff]

you just started talking like that. served with Kazakhs, many became friends. and I was in many ways surprised when Russians began to be expelled from you, even physically. but I like that they did not leave Russia for a big chunk. with us "you swallow dust". just a lot that we have rewritten and want to convince us that we are worthless.

[Marek Rozny]

as a typical Kazakh, I have a very good relationship with Russians and Russian culture. Russians have enough qualities for which they can be truly respected. only this does not mean that the Kazakh will obsequiously listen to tales about the progress brought by tsarist Russia or simply endure chauvinist phrases. Of course, most Russians write about it not out of malice, but because Soviet school textbooks were built on the fact that the Russian people managed to give all foreigners "nishtyaks" even before the revolution and now this is a persistent myth that is difficult to get rid of. and then there is the myth of the expelled Russians after 1991. Yes, many have left, but most left for economic reasons - the 90s were very difficult for us. someone left because they were afraid of possible unrest on the national theme, someone left because they preferred to live in their historical homeland (which for most Russian Kazakhs is also a real small homeland). But there were practically no cases of nationalism in KZ. At least, there were much fewer such cases than similar cases in Russia itself. 3/4 of the Russian diaspora remained in KZ and they are not going to go anywhere. About 20 thousand people leave KZ for Russia every year. But the same number of people move from Russia to Kazakhstan every year. For our countries, these are not very large numbers.
And do not pay attention to American propaganda, just do not confuse them with any non-complimentary Russian source. Better is the bitter truth, as the Russian proverb says.
Z.Y. If somewhere offended, then excuse me, in the heat of a heated argument I could blur an insulting word. I apologize. Got excited.

[rexby63]

Thank you very much for the photos .. Very valuable shots. Gentlemen, commentators, stop arguing, anyway, in your disputes there is not a drop of constructiveness. Just watch and enjoy. THIS IS HISTORY !

[nurker2]

Quote: rexby63

Thank you very much for the photos .. Very valuable shots. Gentlemen, commentators, stop arguing, anyway, in your disputes there is not a drop of constructiveness. Just watch and enjoy. THIS IS HISTORY !

certainly priceless

[biglow]

the very original, homespun Russia

[biglow]

biglow,
why minus, I didn’t say anything bad, homespun Russia is a designation of primordial, traditional Russia

[The cat]

"What squalor", a thought that arises after viewing the photo.

[nurker2]

Quote: Elgato

"What squalor", a thought that arises after viewing the photo.

which is true, then true. Why deny it and blame someone?

[topwar.ruk-d]

You, apparently, have mixed up the monitor with a mirror.

[vinnie]

I don’t think, but I’m even sure that our closest neighbors didn’t look more presentable at that time ... If anyone has such, no doubt, historical photos - PLIZ, imagine ... And, please, without "fanaticism" in the discussion. ..

[Alan]

I agree with the comparison. The thing is generally ungrateful. You can take a photo of a prosperous townsman of the tradesman of that time, but you can as a peasant here. The same can be done with any other country.
Here is a photo of an American kid at the beginning of the last century.

[Marek Rozny]

I don’t know how Americans lived there before the First World War, but here in Russia the Russian people in their bulk lived in disgusting conditions. You can read Russian classics, ethnographers, see hundreds of photographs and sketches. that is why the people in 1917 threw off the king with pleasure and hung the nobles without pity.
I remember the impression that Novikov-Priboi's Tsushima made on me as a child, when the author described the relationship in the navy between officers and sailors. and absolutely not surprised why the sailors willingly drowned during the revolution and civil war.
Remember in St. Petersburg recently found bags with silverware? the nobles had balls, operas and treatments in Baden-Baden, and the Russian people swallowed saliva at the sight of a piece of sugar.
before 1917 the people were really dark, downtrodden, humiliated, half-starved and illiterate. no matter how they admire Chaliapin or Mendeleev. The Naryshkins and Kolchaks wanted to spit on the "peasant", which they perceived as slaves, mistakenly freed in 1861.

[nurker2]

The tsarist elite was absolutely official and pro-Western

[topwar.ruk-d]

Another "guardian" for the Russian people. Where do you write from? Brighton Beach or Tel Aviv.

[nurker2]

Quote: topwar.ruk-d

Another "guardian" for the Russian people. Where do you write from? Brighton Beach or Tel Aviv.

everything is perfectly visible, do not look for enemies

[topwar.ruk-d]

All this Central Asia is worth nothing without cultural Russian influence. It was the Russians who were the main vehicles of civilization among the local savages. And this continues to this day.Marek rozny, I remember the impression that Novikov-Priboy's "Tsushima" made on me as a child
You would still study the history of the short course of the AUCPB.

[nurker2]

Quote: topwar.ruk-d

It was the Russians who were the main vehicles of civilization among the local savages

how many words and few facts are in your comment

[Marek Rozny]

Don't you like Novikov-Priboi? Read about Russian life from Nekrasov and Tolstoy. And about the savages - read the ethnographer Alexei Kharuzin, who described the Russians in the Kazakh steppe. Well, or see the photo above. Find the "light of culture" there. Or did you write down the entire pre-revolutionary Russia as scientists and nobles? Unfortunately, they were not sent to us in the steppe. And the Russian people did not see any benefit from them.
And didn’t you see a photo on the Internet where the inhabitants of a Russian village listen to the radio for the first time? 1924 year.

I do not argue that the majority of Kazakhs also heard the radio for the first time at the same time. But why imagine everything as if the Russian people (I'm not talking about the elite of Russia, who were kicked out in 1917) were supposedly one step above the rest? Leave your fantasies about the "advanced" Russian peasant to yourself.

[aleksandroff]

then there was a lot of propaganda too. writers were now from the liberals. and so many classics talked about prosperous Russia. the Communists and in the 90s corroded the whole truth and left only the bad. although looking at the photo I didn’t see anything bad, just people at work. now the peasant is plowing what in the outfit? and again I tell you find the data for Russia in 1913 and you will see how they lived. I don’t feel like looking now. I saw it. that is why England and Germany did their utmost to destroy tsarist Russia.

[Marek Rozny]

alexandroff, where does the liberals? I quoted the words not only of Russian scientists and publicists, but also of monarchists in general! I deliberately did not refer to the Bolsheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries and others, for their words would have generally been rejected here, even without being heard. and here are quotes from the works of people who were adherents of the Russian monarchist culture. Kharuzin generally wrote his work in order to facilitate the assimilation of Russian foreigners. what nafig liberals?
but about the words of the classics about prosperous Russia, I expect to hear from you. I can’t recall such words, so please kindly provide some references if this does not complicate you.
I know perfectly well the data on the Russian economy before the revolution. I asked you to give examples of "advanced" industrial Russia to make sure that you cannot provide such data. Unless, of course, we consider that flax and grain are signs of a developed industry. Well, or did you consider the fact that Russia exported Azerbaijani oil to be "advanced" of the Russian economy?
Moreover, even the famous export of Russian grain does not look so triumphant, remembering that the government ignored the hungry peasants, forcing them to send grain for export. "We will eat less, but we will export more (grains - my note)"- This is how the Minister of Finance Vyshnegradsky declared in 1887 after the price of grain in the world fell.
Let's prove the industrial superiority of tsarist Russia over Europe and the United States. Although I guess where the legs grow from in such myths. People in Russia now like to say that Russia ranked fifth in the world in terms of gross industrial production (5% in fact). At the same time "forgetting" that part of China, India, Asia, Africa, South America were colonies of France, Britain, Germany, and the United States. So who was in 6th place I wonder? Arab Bedouins? Sahara nomads? Iceland?

[Karmin]

Here, somewhere on the "Military Review" there was material about the famine in the USSR in the 20s and there were corresponding photos of the "prosperous" life of Soviet peasants. So in comparison with them, these photos depict heavenly life.

[Marek Rozny]

I agree. the situation in the 20s as a whole became even worse. it’s good that at least the NEP gave the people a little curse.

[nurker2]

Quote: Marek Rozny

I agree. the situation in the 20s as a whole became even worse. it’s good that at least the NEP gave the people a little curse.

The mistakes of the leadership of those times

[Marek Rozny]

First, WWI squeezed juices out of the country, then after the February Revolution, anarchy, rampant crime, then civil war, intervention, famine, food surpluses and more. in a very short time, the entire population of the former Russian Empire was impoverished specifically. all made a contribution - both white, and red, and gray-burmaline.

[Yura]

I’m kind of not old yet, but it seems that I remember these clothes, these faces are dear to me, there is so much to say .... It hurts and is sad.

[Black]

I agree with you- SHCHEMIT .....

[Andrey58]

Damn, what country they lost.

[Black]

You know, if the rate of agricultural degradation in the modern Volga region does not change, then in 10 = 15 years everything will be the same.
Find again .....

[Black]

Quote: Fox

Kazakhs, as a nation, appeared in the early 30s, with the light hand of Kaganovich, and before that there were kaisaks, nomads, who shit in their pants.

Not a few of your ancestors, the inferior, got a Cossack whip, apparently. You see how your memory is at the genetic level, it kicks up !!!! Did not crush you in the eighteenth !!!!!!

[deman73]

good photos have something to see and stop getting smart and put forward stupid theories about the stagnation and poverty of the Russian people we didn’t live at that time so it’s not worth inventing anything

[Marek Rozny]

need to read more. then you will not only know how the Russian people lived then, but you will begin to use punctuation marks.

[Yura]

Quote: Marek Rozny

need to read more. then not only will you know how the Russian people lived then

Who are you? And why are you here?

[Marek Rozny]

Go away. Or write on the topic.

[Yura]

Quote: Marek Rozny

Go away. Or write on the topic

Well, here it is your face. And if we are already on you, then kindly choose the words, the topic is something that you came up with, what did you see when looking at the photos? I looked at the photos and thought that the worst was yet to come and I felt uneasy about what they still had to endure, and I didn’t care what nationalities lived and live on the territory of Russia, you saw the opportunity to show off here, show erudition, amuse his sick self-identity, from rags to riches snob unhappy. It would be better if I thought silently that this hour is the 21st century, and we all have not gone so far from the time at which these pictures were taken, I thought what could be done so that the peoples would really begin to live better, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s Russian or Kazakh or other nations. Dust in your yurt; away, be respectful.

[Marek Rozny]

1) First, you go nafig with your intimate questions, who am I, what am I, etc. Yes, and with such a provocative implication. And so it is clear that any of my answers would provoke your remark of negative content. So go outside and ask everyone in a row who he is and what he is. I also found an investigator.
2) I wrote what I think - my irritation that the majority of Russian members of the forum here fantasize about the enlightened Russian people who have taught all neighbors the benefits of civilization. That same Smoke himself boasts that "we taught you how to shit" (I quote verbatim). And these phrases hang on the site. And all sorts of ignorant bawlers "we are the greatest, we taught everyone, we protected everyone, we built Disneylands for everyone, etc." I teach that you should not confuse the Russian nobility and the Russian people, as well as Stalin's construction projects run by the American office of Albert Kahn with the Russian people. If you want the Russian people to be respected - start small - start studying the history of your own people, and not live with slogans, myths and chauvinist theories. As soon as the Russian Internet man in the street begins to understand what and how it was in his own history, then you look and the pathos will diminish, and you will begin to see people in your neighbors. In the meantime, the majority on the forums are brought up by semi-fascists and Ivans who are not remembered.
I understand perfectly well that it’s unpleasant to break stereotypes, that it’s unpleasant to find out the rough pages of your own history, but then choose yourself - live in a popular print and have bad relationships with all your neighbors, or rediscover the history of your own people and stop bothering neighbors with your gender -fascism, like Smoke and others like defecation teachers.
And to be offended by my erudition is so stupid. I am now another "ungrateful" Kazakh for you, who dared to pull something out there that was said by a Russian person about the Russian people? If so, then you can join Smoke and start shouting "we are you, a sheep... zoophiles and lumps, taught to shit! "Go ahead, there are hundreds of such slogans. One more, one less.
And if such Nazi cries will disappear, then it will really be possible to think what our peoples should do next for common development. Moreover, it is natural that we have more in common in culture and history than smokes and his intellectual relatives - "hygiene specialists".

[Chamber No. 6]

Marek Rozny (4)

If you want the Russian people to be respected - start small - start studying the history of your own people, and not live on slogans, myths and chauvinist theories.

Well done! Plus!

[Marek Rozny]

Thanks. I just want all of us to show our patriotism not in chauvinist phrases towards each other, but to act as the Russian philosopher P. Chaadaev said: "Love for the Fatherland is hatred for its shortcomings and the desire to eradicate them as soon as possible."
But ignoring the shortcomings of the native country (and ignoring the unpleasant moments in the history of the native country) is not love for the Motherland, but some kind of prostitution: I will love this Motherland, but I will not.

[MG42]

Grandma recalled was young = here is a photo of the USA 1900 - 1917

[Marek Rozny]

and it was. and even in the 30s, the USA is represented by terrifying photographs. what was, it was, no one to get out of nowhere.

[MG42]

Continuation of the photo of the USA 1900 = 1917 >>>>>>>>

[Marek Rozny]

White emigrant, monarchist and anti-communist Solonevich writes about tsarist Russia the following:
"The fact of the extreme economic backwardness of Russia in comparison with the rest of the cultural world is not subject to any doubt. According to the figures of 1912, the national income per capita was 720 rubles in the United States (in gold, pre-war terms), in England - 500, in Germany - 300, in Italy - 230 and in Russia - 110.
So, the average Russian, even before the First World War, was almost 7 times poorer than the average American, and more than 2 times poorer than the average Italian. Even bread - our main wealth - was scarce. If England consumed 24 pounds per capita, Germany 27 pounds, and the USA - as much as 62 pounds, then Russian bread consumption was only 21,6 pounds - including cattle feed... At the same time, it should be borne in mind that bread occupied such a place in the food ration of Russia as it did not occupy anywhere else in other countries. In the rich countries of the world bread was replaced by meat and dairy products and fish "(I. Solonevich" People's Monarchy ")

[aleksandroff]

where do you find them, those who write for abroad.

[Marek Rozny]

alexandroff, this is your russian story. just take any topic that interests you and start to discover it purely for yourself. I’m sure you will find a lot of interesting and instructive things.
In fairness, I note that you will not only find unpleasant pages in the history of your people, but also those moments that are undeservedly forgotten by the Russian people - for example, few people in Russia know and realize the significance of the Battle of Molodi, when in fact Moscow really began to dominate the territory of the disintegrated Golden Hordes. Instead of giving publicity about the Battle of Kulikovo (where, in fact, Dmitry Donskoy acted in the interests of the Horde against the separatist Mamai with his Ryazans and Genoese), the Russians would have been more proud of the victory over the last Crimean invasion. This is where the Russians really skillfully showed how they learned to fight and beat the enemy, rather than betraying some kind of stupid standing on both sides of the Ugra as a brilliant Russian military strategy.

[apppa]

The quote is taken out of context. To understand the meaning, you need to read further, especially the next chapter "Two poles".

[8 company]

I was in Shushenskoye with an excursion in Soviet times, I experienced a slight shock. Propaganda asserted that the tsarist regime oppressed everyone and inhumanely exiled revolutionaries to the taiga. It turned out that the "oppressed" Siberians lived in huge huts made of thick logs (I have never seen such logs in the European part), spacious courtyards, and a lot of farm buildings. And the "inhumane" exiled Ilyich ordered himself a wife, went hunting, bought meat, milk, and fat sour cream from the peasants. He also received an allowance from the regime for his needs in exile. In vain, of course, Nikolai liberalized the revolutionaries, this liberalism cost the whole people dearly.

[motorized rifle]

Marek, I don’t understand that, in your opinion, the Russian people, the most flawed in the world, have such an impression on your posts, did you read Abai, no ?, if you read and forgot, then re-read, no offense. Well, I would be curious if someone posted photos of the peoples of the Russian Empire of this period, then we could compare who has happier faces and better shoes ......

[Marek Rozny]

Do not think of what I did not say and did not think. I just said that before the revolution the Russian people were goalless, impoverished and uneducated. He cited references to Russian eyewitnesses of that time. If it disturbs you, then this is not my problem. My comment is given to all smokes who believe that the simple Russian people stood above all their neighbors in development at that time, and that they allegedly did something for the Kazakh and other peoples before the revolution.
And I can send you photos in a personal message, if it's really interesting - just write your e-mail. Or if you yourself want to write a photo article on this topic, then I will give any information that you need. I have nothing to be ashamed of, I know the history of my people well, as well as the vast majority of materials from the tsarist era on my people. You can even write a negative article about the "unfortunate" wild Kazakh people - anyway I will give any information I have with links to Russian and European authors (I will not even give Asian authors, because for Russians, only infa from ethnically "correct" sources can serve as arguments , any non-Russian surname of the historian causes a negative reaction here on the site).
ZY I will recite Abai to you both in Russian and in Kazakh. He really called on Kazakhs to learn Russian, through which Kazakhs would gain new knowledge. Only at that time did the Russian enlighteners try to familiarize their dark people with the knowledge of the (written) language, so that the Russian people would break out of the shackles of medieval development. Let us not confuse under the concept of "Russian culture" both illiterate peasant bourgeoisie and Russian scientists, who were really great, but whose knowledge and discoveries did not play any role in the life of the common people. If now the offspring of our elite have received a London education and have yachts, we are not saying that our peoples all have similar chips. Otherwise, it turns out strange - now we do not want (for obvious reasons) to associate the people with the rich elite of the country, and we easily mix the people of the 19th century with the nobles.

[Marek Rozny]

If I were ethnic Russian, no one would say a word to me for my quotes and my personal opinion about the level of development of the Russian peasantry before the revolution.
The main negative factor here is that I am a Kazakh. How, they say, the Kazakhs dared to tell us something about Russian history !? Let him sit in his yurt and thank you for giving us the Cyrillic alphabet ...
That’s the whole truth. And now say that this is not a manifestation of nationalism.

[romb]

Baurym!
Believe me, after getting acquainted with the mass of various "facts" and "hypotheses" about the allegedly Russian origin of "Hyperborea", "Atlantis" and the empire of Genghis Khan - I am not surprised that much.

[Marek Rozny]

I read these essays, where to go from the general trend :))) Kazakhs at least refer to medieval primary sources, and in Russian modern census stories - continuous fantasies from the bulldozer a la Zadornov. Of course, I understand that we also have dreamers like Adzhi Kumyk, or Kalibekov sometimes goes too far with the interpretation of historical facts (although his main idea is, in principle, true), but we have already run out of interest in folk history, but in Russia the wave is just beginning. Given that the Hyperborean-Fomenko-Tatar-Aryan-s
Lyavian garbage is superimposed on enduring myths and cliches of past ideologies - it turns out a terrible mess. Academic science in the Russian Federation was at the margins of public interest. People like books where pictures are beautifully painted with fantasy cities that have nothing to do and cannot have with reality, since these drawings are not based on anything other than the artist’s own imagination.

To believe in such an idyllic picture is more pleasant than reading Russian ethnographers of the 19th century or boring academic dry materials on ancient Russian archeology.

[Marek Rozny]

Arrra, with pleasure I plus. hats off for your knowledge of your own family history. I am sure that such hardworking and handsome ancestors have worthy offspring in your person.
with respect.

[motorized rifle]

I just said that before the revolution the Russian people were goalless, impoverished and uneducated.

I'm shocked marek! It remains to add that the Kazakh people, before the revolution, were dressed, rich and educated! From the heart! No need for fantastic pictures, visit the Museum of Russian Northern Architecture, in Kizhi, well, at least virtually, there, besides churches, there are many peasant houses, where naked, beggars and uneducated, they kept horses with a cart ... on the second floor of the house. Naked people in our climate do not survive, beggars in the countryside, that is to say, lazy because working on the land, you will not be poor, poor, perhaps, but not beggars. What do you mean by education? Reading ability? University degree? Then I'll tell you that I saw a lot of people with diplomas and they all knew how to read, but I cannot name many of them educated. How can you judge this way? People without, those and special education, create the Transfiguration Cathedral, and even without a single nail, are they uneducated? And it’s curious what period before the revolution do you mean, or the poverty and lack of education of the Russian people goes, well, from the time of Ivan the Terrible to 1917. ? And why, in the end, do you divide the Russian people, it turns out that the people are peasants, and the nobles, workers, philistines, etc., they are not a people before the revolution, they came to Russia from Central Asia? It is very convenient to argue, they say, Russian enlighteners, and wanted to bring their own people out of the "darkness of the Middle Ages", well, just on the spot, and they, that are not Russian people, eh? Therefore, it is necessary to build logic very correctly in such matters, i.e. not the Russian people before the revolution, but part of the Russian peasantry was ... I hope the idea is clear.

[Marek Rozny]

There is a separate discussion about Kazakhs, although any Russian ethnographer before the revolution described Kazakhs as a prosperous, well-fed nation. Kazakhs had other educational standards - madrassas, writing based on Arabic script. Due to the fact that few people knew how to write in Russian, the tsarist and Soviet authorities considered them illiterate.
Yes, a significant mass of Kazakhs was uneducated, even by that time, although there was a sufficient layer of people educated in Tashkent, Orenburg, Omsk, St. Petersburg and abroad (I am silent about Asian education). Unfortunately, absolutely everyone was eliminated by 1937 (the elder brother of my grandfather - railway engineer Shugaip, too). But this is another story.
Before the revolution, I wrote about the poverty of the Russian people, based on the works of contemporaries. No one argues that there were prosperous peasants and wonderful examples of rural architecture, but this does not completely cancel the fact that the vast majority of peasant people (and peasants were the absolute majority of the Russian population) lived in miserable conditions, were illiterate (in the best rare case could write your name).
And about the construction of cathedrals and other things - well, Tajiks build skyscrapers without education. What the foreman said (and the engineer) is what they do. Why assign laborers to supposedly educated people? There is no need to juggle concepts and build sentences with which it is pointless to argue. "Russian athletes built a space rocket on which Gagarin flew" - they say, and that athletes are not part of the Russian nation that built the rocket? You also enlisted peasants as architects and simply educated (or at least literate) people.
Well, take the statistics of the late 19th century, see how many educated and literate there are among the village peasants. Given that the ability to write your name and no more - already automatically elevated a person to the status of "illiterate".
The report "On the reduction of gymnasium education" (1887) was published by the Minister of Education, Count I. Delyanov. The report introduced a monetary qualification for higher education, thus "grammar schools and progymnasiums will be freed from the children of coachmen, lackeys, cooks, laundresses, small shopkeepers and the like, whose children, except perhaps gifted with genius, should not at all strive for secondary and higher education ".
The report was drawn up at a meeting of the ministers of the interior, state property, the manager of the Ministry of Finance and the chief prosecutor of the Holy Synod of the Russian Empire and was based on the views of Alexander III (Alexander belongs to the testimony of the peasant woman M.A. Ananyina that her son wants to study at gymnasium - "This is awful, man, but also climbs into the gymnasium!").
Only at the beginning of the 20th century (especially towards WWI) did the policy regarding education begin to change, but its scale was not very large until 1917, although the number of schools increased. And in the Kazakh steppe, schools were usually created by Kazakhs and on Kazakh donations, and then many rave about phrases like "Russians broke into villages and left behind schools, hospitals and Disneylands" ... Russia did not even want to teach Russians to read and write, not to mention foreigners , the former Horde.

[apppa]

Your desire to prove a good level of development of Kazakhs before the revolution is understandable. Perplexity is caused only by a biased attitude towards the Russians.

"the overwhelming majority of the peasant people ... lived in miserable conditions, were illiterate ..."
The vast majority of peasants lived in their own homes, good enough by the standards of the time, and had their own land. At the end of the 19th century, 73% of the population were literate in my native Yaroslavl province (an average of 33% in European Russia, see the 1897 Census). Initial education in Russia was free, and since 1908 it has become compulsory, therefore, by 1917. all peasants learned to read and write. In 1913, the number of schools exceeded 130.
Without a doubt, in the 19th century, Russia lagged behind the countries of Western Europe in spreading the literacy of the population, but under Nicholas II this gap narrowed rapidly.
It would be interesting to get acquainted with literacy statistics among Kazakhs in the 19th century and the number of schools, hospitals (and Disneylands))) built by Kazakhs.

[Marek Rozny]

1) almost all Russian peasants had their own homes. this is not surprising in Russian conditions. the forest was a rampart, in Russia historically there have never been any homeless people. even the landlords allocated the forest to their serfs, although not free of charge. Nevertheless, the presence of a hut is by no means a sign of the prosperity of the Russian peasant.
2) regarding literacy:
a) data for 1897: total in Russia - 21,1%, incl. 29,3% of men and 13,1% of women. At the same time, the most literate regions were, for example, Estonia and St. Petersburg province - 77,9% and 55,1%. Where did you get the data on the Yaroslavl province I do not understand, according to the 1897 census you had 52% of literate men and 23% of literate women (and according to the "statistical collection 1884-1890" - 63,42%). Apparently you used later data or took into account only the inhabitants of the city of Yaroslavl, excluding the rest of the province.
b) regarding Kazakhstan. According to the Collection of Statistical Information (1884-90) http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82% D0% BD% D0% BE% D1

%81%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%B2_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8#.D0.93.D1.80.D0.B0.D

0.BC.D0.BE.D1.82.D0.BD.D0.BE.D1.81.D1.82.D1.8C_.D0.B2_.D0.A0.D0.BE.D1.81.D1.81.D

0.B8.D0.B9.D1.81.D0.BA.D0.BE.D0.B9_.D0.B8.D0.BC.D0.BF.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.B8_.D

0.BD.D0.B0_.D1.80.D1.83.D0.B1.D0.B5.D0.B6.D0.B5_XIX.E2.80.94XX_.D0.B2.D0.B5.D0.B

A.D0.BE.D0.B2
The literacy rate in my Akmola province is 55,3% of the total population. And this despite the fact that those who owned only Kazakh written literacy did not fall into the number of literate. Semipalatinsk province - 37,3% literate. From other sources in other areas: for example, Semirechenskaya - the literacy rate in 1897 was only 4,5% (approximately the same as in Ufa or Bessarabia).
c) that I have written that the level of primary education has risen by the time of WWI. However, even then the level was low, there are a lot of mixed numbers, but it will show the level of education based on the Likbez figures in the 20s and 30s well:
In general, the USSR by 1926 occupied literacy only 19th place among European countries, yielding to countries such as Turkey and Portugal. Significant differences remained in the literacy level of the urban and rural population (in 1926, 80,9 and 50,6%, respectively), men and women (88,6 and 73,9% in the city, 67,3 in the village, and 35,4%).
But by 1936 about 40 million illiterate people had been trained. And this figure does not include children who have already studied without fail in schools. 40 million adult residents of the USSR learned to read and write in the Likbez circles! Despite the fact that at that time the total population of the country was 160 million people, and this is without lost territories. How many people managed to get a letter before 1917? According to the most contradictory information, only in European provinces Russian Empire, and even excluding children under 10 years old in 1917, 30-43% of the population were recognized as literate. This, of course, is a giant leap compared to the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries, but nonetheless it is obvious that most of the population, especially the village, was still illiterate. What is the argument on your part?
3) the law on universal education was not adopted either in 1908 or in 1917. You confuse some counties with your own initiative. The bill on universal free education was generally rejected by the Duma and the State Council in 1912.
And here are the specific figures for universal education, which supposedly spread throughout Russia: "in general, by 1915, universal free primary education was introduced only in 3% of zemstvos (15 out of 440)"

[apppa]

Compare statistics until 1917 with statistics from 1926. absolutely incorrect, because by this time, the Bolsheviks had destroyed a significant part of the country's adult population, and millions of orphans were not able to learn to read and write. And the rest of the children were more concerned with finding food, rather than studying. In Yaroslavl, for example, people with higher education and gymnasium students as potential counter-revolutionaries were almost completely destroyed.
(Literacy in Yar. Of the province is really 63%, thanks for correcting)

"Only in European provinces ..., and even excluding children under 10 years of age in 1917, 30-43% of the population were recognized as literate. This, of course, is a giant leap compared to the late 19th and early 20th centuries."
According to the census of 1897. in Heb. Russia was 30% literate, over the next 20 years there has been a huge leap, and you write again 30-43. Where does this data come from?

I respect people who study and preserve the history of their people. Your desire to introduce us to the history of the Kazakhs and show their high level of development is also worthy of respect. But the undeserved humiliation of the Russians nullifies all your efforts.

[Marek Rozny]

1) The data for 1926 was cited as an indicator of the low literacy rate that we got after the end of the Civil War, which indirectly shows that it is unlikely that the literacy rate was high by 1917. In Europe, as a result of the WWII, too, a lot of people were killed, but nevertheless, the literacy rate was much higher than in Soviet Russia of the 20s.
2) Data for 1897 (21,1%) are taken from the census, and 30-43% are estimates of literacy by 1917. All these figures are taken from Wikipedia under the heading "Literacy in the Russian Empire".
3) Dear Arrra, I am not going to "undeservedly belittle" the Russians. I operate only with more or less confirmed data taken from Russian sources of the tsarist period. Here are the links where the figure of 21% was taken from in 1897 - http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4% D0% B0% D1% 86% D0

%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%

81%D1%82%D0%B8 or http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0

%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F
I quote: “At the beginning of the 1901th century, most of the peasants were illiterate; for example, in 84 there were 454 elementary schools in the Russian Empire (52% were secular, subordinate to the Ministry of Public Education, and 48% were religious parish schools subordinate to the Holy Synod). 4,5 million people studied, despite the fact that in the country as a whole, there were 23 million school-age children. In total, the empire was literate by 1897 21% "
и "By the end of the 1897th century, the literacy of the population of the Russian Empire was very low for a country that had long embarked on the path of industrial development. The starting point of the literacy level throughout the country at the beginning of the century is the data for 21,1, recognized by domestic and foreign scientists: in total - 29,3 %, including 13,1% men and XNUMX% women. "

[apppa]

1) Russia as a whole is not entirely correct to compare with the countries of the West. Europe (or take them into account with the colonies). And it’s no secret that ZE The past few centuries are ahead of the rest of the world in development.
2) 21,1% - of the total number, 30-43% - excluding children. Comparing different indicators is incorrect.
3) Again, everything is relative. From West Europe and the United States were lagging behind (but the gap was closing rapidly), the rest of the world was ahead.

[apppa]

Since in the Akmola region there was the most competent Kazakh population, let's look at the data
The First General Census of the Russian Empire in 1897
Tom LXXXI. Akmola region.
page 8. «Literacy of the population.
The total percentage of literate people is insignificant, which depends on the size of the nomadic Kyrgyz population, which, by its very nature, has an insignificant need for knowledge of literacy.
...
It is interesting to dwell on the spread of literacy among individual religious groups:

Religion -% literate men / women
Orthodox - 30,9 / 9,5
Old Believers - 42,5 / 12,9
Roman Catholics - 57,0 / 43,0
Protestants - 61,1 / 55,4
Jews - 65,6 / 44,8
Mohammedans - 6,7 / 1,1

The least intense literacy is among the Mohammedans, to whom mainly the Kyrgyz belong. ”

But since the Mohammedans were not only Kazakhs (Kyrgyz), but also those living in the Tatars and other peoples, we take the statistics of the distribution of the population by literacy and social groups (Tables, p. 30):

Estate -% literate (number)
Nobles - 75,3% (6 people)
Clergy - 72% (832 people)
City estates - 34,6% (33 684 people)
Rural estates - 17,9% (212 people)
Foreigners - 3,5% (427 892 people)

All Kazakhs belonged to the estate of foreignersexcept those who converted to Orthodoxy (and there were about 150 of them).
Literate people were considered regardless of what language they wrote.

Marek Rozny, I do not post this with the goal of belittling you, but from the desire for objectivity.

[Marek Rozny]

Arrra, ohhh, I will be grateful for the link! I could not find and download this volume! (Probably clumsy hands) I already have a good library, but I don’t have volumes for the census. Do you have an electronic version? If it’s not difficult, either send a download link or send it by mail?

[apppa]

http://www.twirpx.com/file/861383/?rand=9688250

[Marek Rozny]

Damn, but I thought there was a paid registration by SMS, so I did not even get registered)))) Thank you!

[Nomad]

Marek Rozny,
good afternoon! I am reading your comments with great interest. You are unlikely to convince a Smoke type chauvinist, since they are not really interested in history, but stupidly hate the world for their quick-witted worthlessness and bankruptcy and are in dire need of self-affirmation in any way.
Those who are bolder go out to drive Gaster, and those with a thin gut pour their vomit on the net.
But this is not about that. You are here to one forum member promised links to materials on the Kazakh history of the 18-19 centuries. How would I get them too? In turn, I am ready to share what I have (a little, but very interesting).

[Marek Rozny]

In a personal email your address, and what exactly interests you - a specific topic, preferably. I will send without problems.

[Smoke]

shit, another offended by the Russian poor clogged with illiterate colonialists crawled out to the forum))

[Nomad]

Hey, civilizer, unfinished, thank Marek Rozny for condescending to a discussion with you. And in my opinion such stupid evil creatures like you do not even spit. By the way, as always you are talking nonsense and gag, I did not say a word about any insults to the Russian people. Do you even understand the meaning of what is written? You can not answer, and so it is clear.