The IL-112V project is being closed - long live the IL-212

The prospects for the Il-112V are as vague as ever

Engine first

Good news first of all. On October 12, the promising PD-8 aircraft engine was launched in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. Not on a stand or even under the wing of the Il-76LL flying laboratory, but on an SJ-100 aircraft. The engine was installed on an import-substituted domestic airliner, in which the most critical component was the power plant. The Franco-Russian SaM146 had an imported gas generator. And quite problematic. The sanctions have virtually paralyzed the production of Russian aircraft - spare parts for the aircraft engine are very difficult to buy even through third parties.

On August 29, as the official version stated, the imported SJ-100 took off into the air. Only it was not possible to replace the notorious SaM146 in the engine nacelles at the end of the summer - the car took off with foreign engines from old stocks. Now they have launched Russian PD-8s under the wing of the SJ-100 on the ground. This is very good news, it remains to be confirmed by the first flight. Then it will be possible to put the regional airliner on a par with its older brother MS-21. Next year, the United Engine Company should deliver at least forty “combat-ready” PD-8s intended for the SJ-100.

Perm PD-8 is being prepared for a new military transport aircraft

History above looks like a spoonful of honey in a barrel of tar. The situation in the civil aircraft industry is far from prosperous. The appearance of two vehicles at once - Il-114-100 and L-410 - is highly questionable. Production of the L-410 has generally been shifted to 2027, and hopes for a full-fledged series are minimal here. The remaining aircraft are gradually being phased out due to a shortage of spare parts. At the beginning of the year, all L-410s of the Komiaviatrans companies from the Komi Republic and Aurora in Kamchatka stopped flying. The problem with the Il-114-100 was the TV7-117ST-01 engine, which was never brought to fruition. At the same time, the product received a type certificate from the Federal Air Transport Agency back in January 2023. As a result, the appearance of the first aircraft was delayed until 2025. Managers explain the situation by the need to refine the engine after the Il-112V disaster. Everyone remembers the tragedy of August 17, 2021, when the plane crashed due to surge in the right engine and subsequent fire. All three crew members were killed. Therefore, it is necessary to consider the history of the Il-112V and Il-114-100 comprehensively - one engine slows down the development of two aircraft platforms at once. There is nothing surprising. It is around the aircraft engine, as the most complex structural element, that the entire aircraft is built. Unfortunately, there have always been problems with this in Russia.

But a non-trivial solution was found, after which it is possible to close the TV7-117ST-01 turboprop project. We are talking about the remotorization of the future military transport Il-112V with the latest gas turbine PD-8. The plane will be built from what is at hand.

Turbines and propellers

The situation with the remotorization of the Il-112V is not as good as it might seem at first glance. Engineers will have to significantly modernize the finished aircraft in order to install not just a new aircraft engine, but an engine of a different design. It’s not so easy for the future novelty of the domestic air fleet called Il-212. It is enough to compare the characteristics of the previous engine with the PD-8 to understand the scale of the event. Several parameters: the PD-8 has a thrust of 7,5 tons, the TV7-117S has 3,1 tons, the dry weight of the gas turbine engine is 2,3 tons, the turboprop engine is 510 kg. Even far from aviation a person will understand that they are trying to install a completely unsuitable unit for a light military transport aircraft. Theoretically, one PD-8 will more than cover the thrust of two TV-7-117S, but in world practice there are no single-engine cargo aircraft yet.

Turboprop TV7-117S

What will the aircraft manufacturers end up with? The result will be an enlarged version of the famous “Cheburashka” An-72 with characteristic engines installed above the wing. If the developers place the PD-8 under the wing of the future Il-212, then it will be ordered to work on unpaved airfields. There is no need to talk about any military specifics. Engines mounted on the wing will significantly complicate maintenance, but there will be a bonus in the form of increased lift. We are talking about the Coanda effect, that is, increasing the efficiency of the wing due to the jet stream blowing onto the upper plane. Only for this purpose the aircraft engine should be moved forward relative to the leading edge of the wing. Of course, this will require a radical restructuring of the design and several years of testing. Large-scale work cannot be avoided (although it will be less expensive) if engineers decide to simply hang aircraft engines under the wing. In the style of SJ-100. But, we repeat, this will significantly reduce the aircraft’s capabilities on unpaved and snow-covered airfields - the diameter of the aircraft engine is almost 1,3 meters.

Heavy and powerful PD-8s consume more fuel. Approximately three times relative to the TV7-117S turboprop. This means that we need to take more kerosene on board, reserve space for it and again radically interfere with the layout. It is completely unclear how the fuselage will be preserved “in general”, as some sources say.

Il-212 should be similar to the An-72 enlarged in all respects

Of course, leaving the original carrying capacity of 5 tons with all this would be a crime. The car will turn into a carrier of kerosene and a pair of heavy engines. Therefore, a remotorized aircraft will inevitably enter a new class. Presumably, the Il-212 will be capable of lifting at least 12 tons into the sky. The benchmark is the An-72 with a payload of 10 tons, but its engines produced 6,5 tons of thrust versus 7,5 tons of the PD-8. Before asking questions, let us clarify that it is impossible to restore production of the An-72 precisely because of the D-36 aircraft engines, which they have forgotten how to build even in their homeland. And the homeland of the products is in Zaporozhye.

As a result, the IL-212 will stand one or two steps higher than its ideological predecessor with the IL-112V index. There is only one caveat. The fact is that UEC can come up with its own modification of the aircraft engine for the aircraft. For example, PD-6 or PD-4. Theoretically, there is nothing complicated about this. PD-8, recall, was built by scaling the older PD-14. Why not do something similar for the IL-112V? Moreover, such a gas turbine engine can also be used by the civilian Il-114-100. All that remains is to find a couple of years of emergency work to certify the new engine according to all the rules.

The question of the possibilities of production workers remains open. How much will it be possible to increase the production of the PD-8 (or its versions) if the civilian fleet requires 40-60 aircraft engines annually? Will you have to choose between the military Il-212 and the “peaceful” SJ-100? If a passenger aircraft is in demand abroad, then the prospects for engine manufacturers are generally gloomy.

The story of the remotorization of the military transport Il-112V and its transformation into an aircraft of a different class allows us to hope for the continuation of work on the long-suffering TV7-117S engine. Albeit with a long delay, but it must be brought up to standard. The class of light transport vehicles, designed for 5-6 tons of load, will not evaporate anywhere - the vehicles are needed by both military and civilian users. The IL-112V project can be further developed without any rush and with comprehensive testing. The above-mentioned IL-7-117, as well as the light Ladoga, which is replacing the An-114, cannot do without the TV100-2S.

The measures taken by the state are largely unprecedented. But there is no other way - the An-26 fleet is rapidly aging, and the vehicles are gradually being taken out of service. The needs of the special operation expectedly accelerated this process. Therefore, of two evils - waiting for the TV7-117S to be finalized for several more years or urgently redesigning the aircraft for the sake of the finished PD-8 - we chose the second. After all, it is much easier to build a new aircraft around a working engine than vice versa. Only it will be a completely different car.

Comments

[Ross xnumx]

“There are three things you can look at forever: burning fire, flowing water and a shining starry sky.”
In Russia it is becoming fashionable to watch how budget funds are wasted without creating anything...
Always sawing
Saw everywhere
Until the last days of the bottom.
Sawing and no ideas -
This is my slogan and...
"sun" face...
Endless fatigue from the massive plans that have been going on since 1991, which ultimately come up against the conflict created by the forms of ownership of the means of production...
When will you get drunk and burst, you untalented ghouls and lousy speculators?

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

It’s curious whether it would be easier to install PL-72 engines on the AN-8. As far as I remember, we collected them ourselves.
Please do not judge strictly, the proposal is purely conceptual.
All the good days!

[highlight]

There is the An-148, its further development with engines under the wing. In the transport version, only design the ramp and remotorize it and strengthen the chassis for working from the ground

[TermNachTer]

There is a ready-made An-178, although the airplane is very so-so. “Blinded” by cutting in 3 m sections, behind the center section. The airplane has a very strong rear centering, in some cases it is very dangerous.

[Eug]

Yeah, I was flying with over a ton of ballast under the cockpit...

[nordscout]

Dear ROSS 42! Under the current political and economic system in Russia, the ghouls will NEVER "get drunk"... And all the "social" flirting with the people is just entourage, scenery in a play about capitalism, but with a "Gagarin smile"... After all, we want a "house in the country" (in the Maldives or Spain), and for the plumber, Uncle Vasya, to be able to live on his pension, like in the USSR, and for Russian planes to fly with domestic engines and for household electronics to be superior to Japanese ones.... Everything is "wanted and pricked", but without ideology, education and a socialist view of the future, we will continue to mark time, "saw" the budget, no matter what, "fight" for a place under the "bureaucratic" sun (there are the "coolest" opportunities there), lie to the Supreme and remain in a state of "indifference" regarding this state...

[Grim Reaper]

There are three things you can look at forever: a burning fire, flowing water and a shining starry sky."
+ + + + + +
In the original: on fire, on water and how others work. Therefore, the best spectacle is a fire. :)

[Arkady007]

And the prospects for the development (revival) of the aircraft industry are fading every year.
Just baltalogy and nothing has changed for 20 years.
Another confirmation of this is the article from previous years about engines and aircraft.

[Lech from Android.]

Quote: ROSS 42

When will you get drunk and burst, you untalented ghouls and lousy speculators?

Never...the current system does not imply talent in the management system in civil and transport aviation, focused on making a profit.
That which does not bring quick profit will be crushed mercilessly... no matter how talented a person's invention is, with a return in decades and with the investment of large funds in its development, it is not profitable for today's bourgeois in Russia who live for today.
This is the peculiarity of our country, described by Saltykov-Shchedrin.
How to quickly and without bureaucratic delays introduce inventions into our lives??? The question of questions... there are prohibitions everywhere, lack of money... and just a disregard for the attitude of the people on whom it all depends.

[Andrey Yuryevich]

and Shoigu, also give AN 124. dreamers...

[your vsr 66-67]

Lech from Android.
I agree with all points!
I would like to add something that does not relate to the BTA, but to aviation in general.
If memory serves, our M1954 strategist took off in 4. In 1954!!!
And it was equipped with 4 jet engines! And this in a country that has not yet really recovered from the Second World War! A country still in ruins in places! (in Kropotkin, these ruins lay in the center of the city until about 1957. We boys ran there to play)
And after 60-70 years they cannot create an engine!
And I have a question.
Who is to blame for this? Constructors? Leaders? Or is it still the supreme power?
Was this possible during the management (I deliberately write management, not government) of the country
I.V. Stalin?

[Luminman]

Quote: your vsr 66-67

Was this possible during the management (I deliberately write management, not government) of the country by I.V. Stalin?

If the country was now ruled by Comrade. Stalin, then we would now be baking microchips with computers and long-haul airplanes, just like hot cakes are baked, and at all these sanctions we would just laugh and twist our fingers at our temples...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Luminman

If the country was now ruled by Comrade. Stalin, then we would now be baking microchips with computers and long-haul airplanes, just like hot cakes are baked, and at all these sanctions we would just laugh and twist our fingers at our temples...

And no one would sit on the forums... and after work they would go on public transport to their 9 square meters to take notes on the latest decisions of the party and government. Oh yes, half of the salary would be received in government bonds, and even for the second half they would have to be bought - if the district committee needed to report on exceeding the plan and a united popular impulse.

[Dutchman Michel]

Quote: Alexey RA

And no one would be on the forums...

Did they tell you this on Ekho Moskvy?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Dutchman Michel

Did they tell you this on Ekho Moskvy?

You see, Comrade Stalin’s management style and the need to once again cover a hundred-year gap in ten years go very poorly with sitting on forums during working hours.

[bayard]

Quote: Alexey RA

You see, the management style of Comrade Stalin and the need to once again cover a hundred-year gap in ten years go very poorly with sitting on forums during working hours

Do you think that the opportunity to sit on forums is an absolute achievement of the current system?
Under Comrade Stalin’s USSR, young people after their work shift went to evening courses to get an education, to libraries, to lectures and creative evenings. And the creative activity of the population was supported and stimulated in every possible way by the Soviet Government.
Yes, and today Russia does not need to run 100 years behind the leader, we do not have SUCH a lag. And the country has enough funds to build its own autarky (self-sufficient economy). And we have quite enough markets (both internal and external) for this. The reason for today's vegetation is the laziness and lack of talent of the "new aristocracy", which is in no hurry to go to war, nor in a hurry to equip the Country. They have one passion - to live happily and for nothing to change.
Regarding the article.
I have already written on this topic, but since there is such “outstanding” news, it can be repeated. And also to evaluate the “wisdom” of the authors of such ideas as installing an engine from an SSJ-100 on a LIGHT transport aircraft.
Is it out of desperation?
Or just out of stupidity?
First, we need to remember and decide WHY our aerospace forces need an Il-112 class aircraft. And it is needed for the purpose of transporting aircraft engines to and from repairs from military aviation airfields to repair plants. And also for the delivery of spare parts, repair teams and for other operational duties of remote garrisons, air bases, etc., etc., etc. Its dimensions and carrying capacity were not taken out of thin air, but written down in the terms of reference. If now they spend another 10 years with the reincarnation of an enlarged (otherwise there is no other way) version of the An-72, and in the end they get a transport aircraft with a payload capacity of 12 tons and fuel consumption that is wild for the purposes described above... the problem STILL will not be solved and the VKS will be left without the aircraft they desperately need.
What's wrong with the IL-112?
ENGINE ! It is frankly weak, because with the required power of 3500 hp. (minimum) it is capable of producing a maximum of 2750 hp. At the same time, the TV7-117 at such thrust already has a critical temperature regime, and no more can be squeezed out of it. Need another engine.
And there IS such an engine! In stock !! Just in warehouses. This is the good old AI-20, which is installed on the Il-18, An-12, Be-12 and a number of other vehicles. The engine is not new, but it is very, VERY reliable and produces 4000 hp in its basic and most common version. Of course, it is more than twice as heavy as the TV7-117, but in its forced version it already produces ... 5500 and even 6000 hp. But the most important thing is that its RESOURCE is... 40 flight hours! And there is no need to compare its efficiency with the same TV000-7, its specific fuel consumption will still be 117+ times less than that of a turbojet engine of the same thrust... But we have already been offered to install... engines on the IL-2 PD-112!! Wild game. And most likely this stupidity was voiced only in order to divert the attention of the narrow-minded society from the failures of citizen Manturov and Co. for new unprecedented projects.
If the Country and the Aerospace Forces need a light military transport aircraft with characteristics not lower than those specified, it must be built around a proven, reliable turboprop engine with an excellent (!!) service life - the AI-20. In this case, it will be necessary to make some changes to the design of the IL-112, but not critical ones. As a result, we will get an aircraft with excellent take-off characteristics (thrust-to-weight ratio) and a payload capacity of up to 7 - 7,5 tons. This is somewhat more than stated, but the engines allow it, so we will consider this a bonus.
Someone will say that these engines are no longer produced, and they were produced, it seems, in Zaporozhye... Well, firstly, they are still PRODUCED today. In China . Just like the clone of our An-12. Yes, they also install it on other planes.
Now fine ?
In addition, we still have quite a few aircraft (even old ones) flying on these engines; we have experience in operation, maintenance, and repairs. I don’t think it would be particularly/critically difficult to organize a restart of their production in the Russian Federation. And for the first experimental and pre-production vehicles, you can take advantage of warehouse stocks and supplies of its clones from China.
And in order to find a wider application for this engine, you can think about... reincarnation in a new guise of the An-12.
Surprised? In vain. In the USA to this day the C-130 Hercules is not only in service, but also in production. And there is still a queue for him from all over the world. And the infection does not age. And why ? Yes, because military transport aircraft have their OWN SPECIAL FASHION. They don't need record speeds, ultra-high efficiency and fancy bells and whistles. They must be RELIABLE, have the proper capacity, payload capacity and flight range. Be able to land on airfields of any class, including unpaved ones. That’s why the S-130 is still in service and no one has moved it in this class.
So why should we look for some special way? Dreaming about some ephemeral and unrealistic Il-276... or its analogue from the Tupolev Design Bureau? And even on turbojet (!!) engines (which will never be equal to turboprop engines in efficiency and unpretentiousness) ... which they also want to place under the wing of a high-wing aircraft! What does it mean to completely say goodbye to the possibility of operation from unpaved airfields? But this is a middle-class BTA aircraft. Which is bound to be the main workhorse of Transport Aviation.
Make the updated An-12 fuselage a little wider so that the BMP-3\3M can fit, make a new cockpit, more modern mechanization and install the updated AI-20 with a thrust of 5500 l/s. And we will get an analogue of the modern version of the Hercules with a carrying capacity of about 30 tons. It's a simple solution after all. There is no need to invent a wunderwaffle - the ancestors have already taken care of it. new heat-resistant materials will make the AI-20's lifespan simply amazing... And in the next decade, the VKS will have not only a light transport aircraft, but also a medium transport aircraft with a payload capacity similar to the first versions of the Il-76. Only he will land on any unpaved airfield.
Can you imagine HOW MANY AI-20 engines will be needed just for these two programs? And if these planes appear with us, there will be a QUEUE for them from our allies and partners. But lately more and more of them have been arriving... Only now we offer them we can't do anything. Because they ruined their industry, machine tool building and industrial science.
But DEMAND also determines supply. With such demand, you can safely restart not only your aviation industry across the entire spectrum. This will require huge investments... but for such a huge and long-term order, any industry can be started from scratch. It is cost effective. It's politically advantageous. This is military-strategically VERY PROFITABLE.
But in order to take advantage of such historical opportunities, it is necessary that the country and the industry were led not by strange people with the intellect of a teenager with a poor grade, but by responsible professionals in their field and real statesmen - Creators.

And now we see how some people with the intellect of a retarded teenager are voicing strange ideas for installing two PD-8 jet engines on a small transport aircraft... And with a blue eye they promise to solve the problem in this way... For the sake of laughter, I’ll tell you how to solve it with help PD-8. Two engines will of course be too much, but if you install one under the tail above the fuselage (don’t laugh) , that’s also possible, they’ll grab the idea now). Its (PD-8) thrust is quite sufficient to transport the Il-112 specified in the flight characteristics specifications, because its thrust even slightly exceeds the optimally required thrust for a given airframe with a given load. How do you like THIS Elon Musk?
The last sentence was, of course, a joke, but with their crisis of ideas, they could quite easily seize on something like that.
And it will fly.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: bayard

Do you think that the opportunity to sit on forums is an absolute achievement of the current system?

Nope. I simply believe that those who desire the return of Comrade Stalin do not understand well how this can affect themselves and their usual life.

Quote: bayard

Yes, and today Russia does not need to run 100 years behind the leader, we do not have SUCH a lag.

How is it with domestic civil aviation? Or will it not be remembered by night, with the auto industry?

Quote: bayard

... Just for fun, I’ll tell you how to solve it using PD-8. lol Two engines will of course be too much, but if you install one under the tail above the fuselage (don’t laugh at stop, that’s also possible, they’ll grab the idea now). Its (PD-8) thrust is quite sufficient to transport the Il-112 specified in the flight characteristics specifications, because its thrust even slightly exceeds the optimally required thrust for a given airframe with a given load. yes How do you like this Elon Musk?

I offer a practice-tested solution:

[bayard]

Quote: Alexey RA

Nope. I simply believe that those who desire the return of Comrade Stalin do not understand well how this can affect themselves and their usual life.

But did those whom you mean really live that badly under Comrade Stalin? And not during the Great Breakthrough period, but when the fruits of Industrialization and Collectivization already bore fruit?
Who howled (and howls) the loudest about “Stalinist repressions”?
Intelligentsia. Especially creative. Well, the children of enemies of the people. Moreover, it was under Stalin that the creative intelligentsia (artists, scientists, writers) received very high salaries, they were paid (and well paid) for published books, released films, they were paid for titles, they had very high pensions (only under Stalin! ), they were provided with comfortable large apartments in prestigious houses and districts, they received state-owned dachas for use (often hereditary) ... It was they who, after Khrushchev’s reforms, howled when their salaries and pensions were cut off by an order of magnitude. When a worker at a machine began to earn twice as much as a qualified engineer! So do not confuse the muck and dregs that Khrushch created with the period of Stalin's reign.
Remember the wonderful film “Shadows Disappear at Noon”, the plot with the arrest of Manka Bonds, and then Fox... Did you even understand that that restaurant (and almost all other restaurants, cafes, ateliers, hairdressers, shoe workshops and factories, furniture factories, factories for the production of radios, radiograms, gramophones and tape recorders...) all this was in cooperative or individual ownership! And all this was nationalized in the most barbaric way by Khrushchev. Discrediting the Stalinist model of state Socialism is precisely the work of Khrushchev. And the socialism that you remember (if you remember) is already the Khrushchev-Brezhnev model. Moreover, Brezhnev softened a lot of all the nonsense that Khrushch did, but, alas, we did not return to Stalinist norms.
Or do you judge that time and this Leader by the books, films and articles of demshiza? But under Stalin, everyone really had to work. And the higher the post and status, the more, and the more strictly one had to answer for all their mistakes, shortcomings, and even more so for sloppiness or, even worse, sabotage. That is why the parasites were afraid like fire of high positions, because the responsibility was severe. Especially during the period of the first five-year plans, when the separation of the wheat from the chaff took place. The tares have been howling ever since.
And in general, the image of Stalin as a state leader is now most popular among young people. But even those same “eighties”, on whose stupor the Restructuring of Socialism into Feudalism became possible, now treat Comrade Stalin with much more respect and piety than in the years of their young foolishness.
But the authorities hate Stalin.
And this is the problem of our Society and State. When almost 70% of the country’s population treats Stalin “good”, “very good” or even “with delight” and wants to return all the best of the gains of that era, and the authorities keep telling this population about “galoshes”, “gulags”, “repressions” and other horror... crammed with outright black stuff and vigorous Lies from all screens and textbooks... This is a disaster. And against the backdrop of the “brilliantly” launched SVO...
Who took care of the situation and prevented the fronts from collapsing during the famous “Guards Drape” last year?
"Small mercenary army"?
Which in its court and guards unit turned out to be almost 50-60% five hundredth?? Or mobilized Donbass corps and volunteer units?
Do you know that in Donetsk, immediately after the Debaltsevo operation, a monument to Stalin was erected in the city? Zakharchenko installed it! And a medal for this operation with Stalin’s profile!! And at the beginning of the Northern Military District our soldiers advanced (they were in all directions - in Kherson, and near Kharkov, and near Kiev and in Mariupol, of course) marching under the Red Flag of the Soviet Union! And it was the Red Banners that were hoisted on the administrative buildings of the liberated cities, towns, villages... Do you remember Grandma with the Red Flag? Which one didn’t come out to anyone?
This is what the People want and what can unite, mobilize, inspire, give strength and perseverance in achieving the Goal.
And if the goal of those who hold back is only to “eat sweetly” and “not change anything”... Trouble. After all, again the War is carried out by active Russian (mostly) patriots, but the goals are never named... and what the feudal-bourgeois Russian Federation will bring to the liberated Northern Black Sea region... again... is not the same. Who will come there instead of the sold-out Ukrainian politicians, oligarchs and Western curators? Exactly the same, only with a tricolor? Having previously smashed everything into dust and rubble?
Not an idle question. Not at all idle.

Quote: Alexey RA

Quote: bayard
Yes, and today Russia does not need to run 100 years behind the leader, we do not have SUCH a lag.

How is it with domestic civil aviation? Or will it not be remembered by night, with the auto industry?

Both with Aviation (including Civil Aviation), and with the Automotive Industry, everything depends on the goal setting of the authorities. If the goal is “to strain as little as possible and bear as little responsibility as possible,” as well as “to accept offerings for the protection of foreign goods and services,” then nothing good came of it. When management takes a bribe to do nothing, they definitely won’t do anything.
It all depends on GOALS SETTING.
And if the task is “to revive the domestic aircraft industry, automobile industry, machine tool industry, radio-electronics industry in the shortest possible time”... if this is precisely the goal of the authorities... believe me, everything will work, be filled and saturated within a maximum of 10-15 years.
But new wine is not poured into old wineskins. If slackers and incompetents, saboteurs and imitators, continue to cling to power...
It’s not for nothing that I brought up the percentage of Comrade Stalin’s sympathizers in society. It is necessary to “GET FUCKED”, as Lukashenko says. And he (Lukashenko) has NOT LOST either production or competence.

Quote: Alexey RA

I offer a practice-tested solution:

This is cruel... for "Handsome Gray" (IL-112).

[Alexey RA]

Quote: bayard

Remember the wonderful film “Shadows Disappear at Noon”, the plot with the arrest of Manka Bonds, and then Fox... Did you even understand that that restaurant (and almost all other restaurants, cafes, ateliers, hairdressers, shoe workshops and factories, furniture factories, factories for the production of radios, radiograms, gramophones and tape recorders...) all this was in cooperative or individual ownership!

Judging by "Tractor Drivers" and "Kuban Cossacks", then the collective farms under the temporary detention center were simply basking in luxury.
Restaurants and studios are, of course, good and noble. But not in a situation where the majority of the population does not have basic needs met - food and housing. It was not because of a good life that the corn grower had to plow up virgin soil and build Khrushchev commune blocks. Because the grain situation was critical, and it had to be resolved as quickly as possible. And the housing issue is evidenced by the fact that more housing was built in a year under Khrushchev than in five years under Stalin.
Yes, the infrastructure for such a breakthrough began to be prepared under the IVS. But in the early 50s, even with the presence of an industrial base, budget housing of standard designs, at the instigation of the chief architects of the cities, was included in development plans in meager quantities. It was even necessary to burn out the passion for decoration from the architects with the hot iron of the Resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers - and beat for the cause.

For example, in Moscow, in residential buildings along Gorky Street (architect Zhukov), along Mozhaiskoe Highway (architect Chechulin), along Leningradskoe Highway (architects Gottlieb and Khilkevich) and in a number of other buildings, for the sake of ostentatious decoration, numerous columns were used, porticoes, complex cornices and other expensive details that give the houses an archaic appearance. At the same time, due attention was not paid to the convenient layout of apartments in these houses and landscaping of the territories.
Particularly great excesses were allowed by the architect Rybitsky in the built house on Chkalova Street, for the decoration of which expensive materials, complex architectural decorations and decorative arcades were used; When planning apartments, the areas of hallways, corridors and other auxiliary rooms are unacceptably inflated. The cost of one square meter of living space in this house is 3400 rubles, which is two to three times higher than the cost of living space in economically designed houses.

During the construction of the administrative building of the Gruzugol plant in Tbilisi (architects Chkhikvadze and Chkheidze), a decorative, practically unused tower 55 meters high was built at a cost of 3 million rubles; the cost of cladding the facades of this building amounted to 8,1 million rubles or 33 percent. total construction cost.

In 1954 the volume of construction according to standard designs in Moscow amounted to only 18%. the volume of housing and cultural and household construction.
In Leningrad, out of 353 residential buildings under construction, only 14 houses are being built according to standard designs.

© Resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers of the USSR of November 4, 1955 No. 1871 “On the elimination of excesses in design and construction.”
And this is at a time when the majority of the population lives in barracks, communal apartments, or even rents corners.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: bayard

Who took care of the situation and prevented the fronts from collapsing during the famous “Guards Drape” last year?
"Small mercenary army"?

Yes, we didn’t have this army! The Serdyukov-Makarov reform was killed by the Arbat military with the support of the Ministry of Finance even before the arrival of Shoigu. According to the plan, the Army was supposed to have brigades of constant combat readiness, staffed by 80-90% contract soldiers, trained and coordinated. Plus a reserve in the form of conscripts trained in training units and centers, and equipment for mobile units at the BKhVT.
And we again received an army of the 2008 model. In which the combat units are half filled with conscripts (and even one-year students), and the auxiliary units and the rear are...framed.
And instead of Serdyukov’s full-blooded brigade, our “new-look army” can only field a battalion tactical group, which includes all the double basses of the brigade.

[Cartographer]

Quote: Alexey RA

Quote: Dutchman Michel

Did they tell you this on Ekho Moskvy?

You see, Comrade Stalin’s management style and the need to once again cover a hundred-year gap in ten years go very poorly with sitting on forums during working hours.

For some reason, the Chinese eliminated the hundred-year gap without the style of Comrade Stalin.

[bayard]

Quote from Kartograph

For some reason, the Chinese eliminated the hundred-year gap without the style of Comrade Stalin.

What do you, young man, know about “Stalin’s style”?
Have you read a lot of fashion books? Or, Ahura-Mazda forbid, films from Medinsky?
Did you communicate with people living at that time? Have you asked? I understand, they might not have made it in time, so at least their memoirs?
To you 1937 - 1938 Are the impressions exciting?
Who initiated these purges? The fact that at the congress Stalin with his idea of ​​universal (without loss of rights, as was the case before) and competitive (election of one of several candidates) Elections to local and Supreme Soviets... remained in the minority. And the victory was won by the so-called. "old Bolsheviks" who took over local power as some kind of princes, but to the canons of the Builders of Communism did not correspond . They knew that in free and general elections they would be removed from power, therefore... DESPITE Stalin’s repeated requests to abandon this idea, they insisted on their agenda - to “postpone” free elections, but to carry out radical purges in the country of “those hostile to Soviet Power” elements" . And the arrests of former nobles, former monks, former priests began... My friend's grandfather, a priest outside the state, was arrested and shot on the same day. The relatives were told: “10 years without the right to correspondence.” They hoped.
Do you know who headed the “troika” (court)?
Khrushchev. And everything that was happening then in Moscow (and this is the capital) was done by Khrushchev and ONLY. And Stalin’s main opponent at that congress was he - Khrushchev. And the idea of ​​carrying out total purges in the Country at the congress was proposed, pushed through and approved by HE - Khrushchev. And most... the overwhelming majority of execution sentences were signed by him - Khrushchev. When the special services came to power, personal files of those executed by Khrushchev's decision were burned in trainloads.
And Stalin had to urgently “strengthen” the bodies of the NKVD - the “Stalinist conscription” was carried out to the NKVD from among the working and Komsomol youth. And then the purges of those who started this terror began, incl. NKVD employees. There was a fierce internal struggle in the country between supporters of Stalin and supporters of Trotsky. Khrushchev was an inveterate Trotskyist since the Civil War, but then he hid it very carefully.
In 1938, purges of the Red Army began. Letters were intercepted with Trotsky's instructions to his agents - to slander as many honest and loyal Red commanders as possible. “If you (a Trotskyist) are arrested, you are obliged to inform about the participation in the conspiracy of at least 10, and preferably 20, commanders loyal to Stalin.”
So, according to a conspiracy, my great-uncle, the commander of the 25th (Chapaevskaya) shock division, a friend, comrade-in-arms and first deputy, was arrested and executed. V.I. Chapaev, who took command after his death. He was unlucky; he was shot immediately. But the cases of many other commanders of the Red Army, on the orders of Stalin, were reviewed by a special commission established by L.P. Beria, who was appointed head of the NKVD (accepted the position in the late autumn of 1938). Rokosovsky and many thousands of other commanders were rehabilitated, released, and after sanatorium treatment returned to duty.
And to Khrushchev’s requests to Rokosovsky to write some nasty thing about Stalin, he responded bluntly: “Stalin is a saint for me!” .
So it was not Stalin who organized those very “purges” - he stopped them!
And about the methods of work of Comrade Stalin, it is better to hear from those who worked with him, who themselves had remarkable authority and competence. I listened . And I read it. Not Khrushchev and Medinsky.
And the Chinese not only began their Industrialization according to the plans we drew up and based on our example, but also after Khrushchev’s slander against the Father of the Nations (as he was called abroad) they broke off all relations with him, and their program for building a “Socialist Economy with Chinese characteristics” "We took it from the example of Stalin's economic policy of the post-war period. And here and there, but in China the memory of Stalin is venerated.
And China’s lag was much more than “100 years,” much greater than that of the USSR in 1929, which is why it took longer to catch up.

[Cartographer]

Quote: bayard

Quote from Kartograph

For some reason, the Chinese eliminated the hundred-year gap without the style of Comrade Stalin.

What do you, young man, know about “Stalin’s style”?
Have you read a lot of fashion books? Or, Ahura-Mazda forbid, films from Medinsky?
Did you communicate with people living at that time? Have you asked? I understand, they might not have made it in time, so at least their memoirs?
To you 1937 - 1938 Are the impressions exciting?
Who initiated these purges? The fact that at the congress Stalin with his idea of ​​universal (without loss of rights, as was the case before) and competitive (election of one of several candidates) Elections to local and Supreme Soviets... remained in the minority. And the victory was won by the so-called. "old Bolsheviks" who took over local power as some kind of princes, but to the canons of the Builders of Communism did not correspond . They knew that in free and general elections they would be removed from power, therefore... DESPITE Stalin’s repeated requests to abandon this idea, they insisted on their agenda - to “postpone” free elections, but to carry out radical purges in the country of “those hostile to Soviet Power” elements" . And the arrests of former nobles, former monks, former priests began... My friend's grandfather, a priest outside the state, was arrested and shot on the same day. The relatives were told: “10 years without the right to correspondence.” They hoped.
Do you know who headed the “troika” (court)?
Khrushchev. And everything that was happening then in Moscow (and this is the capital) was done by Khrushchev and ONLY. And Stalin’s main opponent at that congress was he - Khrushchev. And the idea of ​​carrying out total purges in the Country at the congress was proposed, pushed through and approved by HE - Khrushchev. And most... the overwhelming majority of execution sentences were signed by him - Khrushchev. When the special services came to power, personal files of those executed by Khrushchev's decision were burned in trainloads.
And Stalin had to urgently “strengthen” the bodies of the NKVD - the “Stalinist conscription” was carried out to the NKVD from among the working and Komsomol youth. And then the purges of those who started this terror began, incl. NKVD employees. There was a fierce internal struggle in the country between supporters of Stalin and supporters of Trotsky. Khrushchev was an inveterate Trotskyist since the Civil War, but then he hid it very carefully.
In 1938, purges of the Red Army began. Letters were intercepted with Trotsky's instructions to his agents - to slander as many honest and loyal Red commanders as possible. “If you (a Trotskyist) are arrested, you are obliged to inform about the participation in the conspiracy of at least 10, and preferably 20, commanders loyal to Stalin.”
So, according to a conspiracy, my great-uncle, the commander of the 25th (Chapaevskaya) shock division, a friend, comrade-in-arms and first deputy, was arrested and executed. V.I. Chapaev, who took command after his death. He was unlucky; he was shot immediately. But the cases of many other commanders of the Red Army, on the orders of Stalin, were reviewed by a special commission established by L.P. Beria, who was appointed head of the NKVD (accepted the position in the late autumn of 1938). Rokosovsky and many thousands of other commanders were rehabilitated, released, and after sanatorium treatment returned to duty.
And to Khrushchev’s requests to Rokosovsky to write some nasty thing about Stalin, he responded bluntly: “Stalin is a saint for me!” .
So it was not Stalin who organized those very “purges” - he stopped them!
And about the methods of work of Comrade Stalin, it is better to hear from those who worked with him, who themselves had remarkable authority and competence. I listened . And I read it. Not Khrushchev and Medinsky.
And the Chinese not only began their Industrialization according to the plans we drew up and based on our example, but also after Khrushchev’s slander against the Father of the Nations (as he was called abroad) they broke off all relations with him, and their program for building a “Socialist Economy with Chinese characteristics” "We took it from the example of Stalin's economic policy of the post-war period. And here and there, but in China the memory of Stalin is venerated.
And China’s lag was much more than “100 years,” much greater than that of the USSR in 1929, which is why it took longer to catch up.

So, in a nutshell, why was China able to become a self-sufficient country in 2 years, but Russia was not?

[abc_alex]

Quote from Kartograph

So, in a nutshell, why was China able to become a self-sufficient country in 2 years, but Russia was not?

Reform in China followed the institutional path, while in Russia it followed the path of shock therapy. Did you explain?

[Cartographer]

Quote: bayard

Quote from Kartograph

For some reason, the Chinese eliminated the hundred-year gap without the style of Comrade Stalin.

What do you, young man, know about “Stalin’s style”?
Have you read a lot of fashion books? Or, Ahura-Mazda forbid, films from Medinsky?
Did you communicate with people living at that time? Have you asked? I understand, they might not have made it in time, so at least their memoirs?
To you 1937 - 1938 Are the impressions exciting?
Who initiated these purges? The fact that at the congress Stalin with his idea of ​​universal (without loss of rights, as was the case before) and competitive (election of one of several candidates) Elections to local and Supreme Soviets... remained in the minority. And the victory was won by the so-called. "old Bolsheviks" who took over local power as some kind of princes, but to the canons of the Builders of Communism did not correspond . They knew that in free and general elections they would be removed from power, therefore... DESPITE Stalin’s repeated requests to abandon this idea, they insisted on their agenda - to “postpone” free elections, but to carry out radical purges in the country of “those hostile to Soviet Power” elements" . And the arrests of former nobles, former monks, former priests began... My friend's grandfather, a priest outside the state, was arrested and shot on the same day. The relatives were told: “10 years without the right to correspondence.” They hoped.
Do you know who headed the “troika” (court)?
Khrushchev. And everything that was happening then in Moscow (and this is the capital) was done by Khrushchev and ONLY. And Stalin’s main opponent at that congress was he - Khrushchev. And the idea of ​​carrying out total purges in the Country at the congress was proposed, pushed through and approved by HE - Khrushchev. And most... the overwhelming majority of execution sentences were signed by him - Khrushchev. When the special services came to power, personal files of those executed by Khrushchev's decision were burned in trainloads.
And Stalin had to urgently “strengthen” the bodies of the NKVD - the “Stalinist conscription” was carried out to the NKVD from among the working and Komsomol youth. And then the purges of those who started this terror began, incl. NKVD employees. There was a fierce internal struggle in the country between supporters of Stalin and supporters of Trotsky. Khrushchev was an inveterate Trotskyist since the Civil War, but then he hid it very carefully.
In 1938, purges of the Red Army began. Letters were intercepted with Trotsky's instructions to his agents - to slander as many honest and loyal Red commanders as possible. “If you (a Trotskyist) are arrested, you are obliged to inform about the participation in the conspiracy of at least 10, and preferably 20, commanders loyal to Stalin.”
So, according to a conspiracy, my great-uncle, the commander of the 25th (Chapaevskaya) shock division, a friend, comrade-in-arms and first deputy, was arrested and executed. V.I. Chapaev, who took command after his death. He was unlucky; he was shot immediately. But the cases of many other commanders of the Red Army, on the orders of Stalin, were reviewed by a special commission established by L.P. Beria, who was appointed head of the NKVD (accepted the position in the late autumn of 1938). Rokosovsky and many thousands of other commanders were rehabilitated, released, and after sanatorium treatment returned to duty.
And to Khrushchev’s requests to Rokosovsky to write some nasty thing about Stalin, he responded bluntly: “Stalin is a saint for me!” .
So it was not Stalin who organized those very “purges” - he stopped them!
And about the methods of work of Comrade Stalin, it is better to hear from those who worked with him, who themselves had remarkable authority and competence. I listened . And I read it. Not Khrushchev and Medinsky.
And the Chinese not only began their Industrialization according to the plans we drew up and based on our example, but also after Khrushchev’s slander against the Father of the Nations (as he was called abroad) they broke off all relations with him, and their program for building a “Socialist Economy with Chinese characteristics” "We took it from the example of Stalin's economic policy of the post-war period. And here and there, but in China the memory of Stalin is venerated.
And China’s lag was much more than “100 years,” much greater than that of the USSR in 1929, which is why it took longer to catch up.

Let's say Stalin cleaned the stables in the 30s-40s. Let's say he changed the composition of the NKVD by 70%. And who then sculpted the doctors' case in the 50s, the Leningrad case, the case of the Jewish Congress? Again, everything is bad with you, Stalin is good. Just like right now with Putin, one to one. How many governors and mayors are under investigation and convicted? There is no alternative, of course...

[2al]

Because they had a “Cultural Revolution” and Deng Xiaoping, like Xi Jingping, was re-educated in agricultural communes.

[AAK]

But without extremes, without animal capital and taking notes on the decisions of the next party congress or the “Short Course...”, can anything happen here, or not at all? As for the authorities, the majority at first applauded the Marked Creature with his Paradise, then under Borka the drunk they got too drunk on freedom and democracy, but stepped on the same rake and began to applaud the “colonel who became a captain” (see the book by A. Bushkov ), they will continue to splash around in 2024... they haven’t gotten any wiser...

[Luminman]

Quote: AAK

then under Borka the drunk we got too drunk on freedom and democracy

Are you sure that under Alkash we had freedom and democracy in our country?

[Dutchman Michel]

Quote: Luminman

Are you sure that under Alkash we had freedom and democracy in our country?

There was a "Collective Rasputin" led by an alcoholic

[Alexander Rasmukhambetov]

At least on TV they gave everyone the floor.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: AAK

But without extremes, without animal capital and taking notes on the decisions of the next party congress or the “Short Course...”, can anything happen here, or not at all?

Well, the top starter certainly wanted Comrade Stalin at the head of the country.

[Nikolatz]

Young people can't know about this

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Alexey RA

Oh yes, half of the salary would be received in government bonds, and for the second half you would have to buy them

I remember my parents had two suitcases in the attic. A small one and a slightly larger one, crammed full of these bonds. My father, being a young, single lieutenant on a warship, gave two-thirds of his salary, and my mother, a teacher, the same... So later they burned this "money" at the dacha... A voluntary subscription to a government loan for defense... True, a bit forced... Like - "Subscribe to the loan. Are you a conscious communist or not!"

[Cartographer]

Quote: 30 vis

Quote: Alexey RA

Oh yes, half of the salary would be received in government bonds, and for the second half you would have to buy them

I remember my parents had two suitcases in the attic. A small one and a slightly larger one, crammed full of these bonds. My father, being a young, single lieutenant on a warship, gave two-thirds of his salary, and my mother, a teacher, the same... So later they burned this "money" at the dacha... A voluntary subscription to a government loan for defense... True, a bit forced... Like - "Subscribe to the loan. Are you a conscious communist or not!"

For example, in 2000, part of the salary for six months was paid in bonds. Then I went and received interest for 2 years.

[ln_ln]

there were two suitcases. Small and slightly larger ones chock full of these bonds

My grandmother had an envelope with bonds.
I have some doubts about the “suitcases”.

[anzar]

If the country was now ruled by Comrade. Stalin, we would now be baking microchips with computers

For "bourgeois pseudoscience cybernetics"?? Wait))

[Alexey RA]

Quote: anzar

For "bourgeois pseudoscience cybernetics"?? Wait))

Avotfig. Bourgeois science cybernetics is a philosophical concept about managing society.
And applied science is responsible for computers (more precisely, computers) - technical cybernetics, which was treated absolutely normally during the IVS. Because the computers of that time primarily solved problems in the interests of general engineering, medium-sized engineering and the aviation industry. And any infringement on their developers would have resulted in a reprimand from the curator of these areas, who was the “best effective manager.”

[hagen]

Quote: your vsr 66-67

Was this possible during the management (I deliberately write management, not government) of the country
I.V. Stalin?

Perhaps it was. Just remember the history of the Su-8. And testers also died during tests, more than once. There were a lot of design bureaus that designed aircraft of the same type and purpose. Then these design bureaus were either merged or liquidated. It’s just that at that time there was no Internet and there was a fairly strict authoritarian government. Therefore, the people did not know everything and could discuss even less publicly in writing. Especially in such a critical tone... And, in general, who told you that everything new should go into production the first time? Not so long ago, one of the luminaries of astronautics said that with our current security system, Gagarin would never have flown into space. Therefore, the old engine does not meet modern requirements, and the new one is born difficult, in pain and blood. It is only armchair know-it-alls who immediately identify cuttings, embezzlement and nonsense. Most likely, other versions of the mind are not the same... Take it and create it yourself... Weak? That's the same... They are only capable of crap on their own country. And she, by the way, provided everyone with food, her own, not from abroad. This is for nostalgists for the USSR, for comparison. And it fulfills all its guarantees, despite the war. And without forced government loans... So Saltykov-Shchedrin should not be remembered in vain. For those who work hard, there is no time to ask stupid questions. But you have the right

[sergeyketonov]

Nikolay. Good afternoon. It's not about Stalin. It's just that a planned economy is two orders of magnitude (100 times) more efficient than a market economy. In the USSR, they easily produced 1000 fighters a year, and now how many? - 8 (eight!!!!!!!!), 12 nuclear submarines a year, and now one every 12 years. And the "Soviet rubber galoshes"? - WWER-1200, developed from 1974 to 1978, was ready for production in 1978, now these "Soviet rubber galoshes" are high-tech products that we, capitalist Russia, export.

[hagen]

Quote from sergeyketonov

It’s just that a planned economy is two orders of magnitude (100 times) more efficient. than the market one.

Where is it today, this two orders of magnitude more efficient economy? In which country? A market economy with elements of strategic planning is perhaps the most sustainable economy.

Quote from sergeyketonov

In the USSR they easily produced 1000 fighters a year, but how many now? - 8 (eight!!!!!!!!), 12 nuclear submarines per year, and now one every 12 years.

You've obviously read too much Suvorov and have fantastic pictures in your head... Read the term "labor intensity" in the dictionary, find it in the production of a fighter in 1945 and 2023, and compare them. Compare the standard of living in those years and your life today. And if you have a secondary education, you will understand that your comparisons are incorrect. Rastrenin's book about the Il-2 provided the following statistics: during the war, 33083 Il-2 aircraft were delivered to the Red Army, 11448 were lost in combat, 11055 were lost (written off) due to accidents, disasters and wear and tear of the materiel, which characterizes the quality of manufacturing and technical support. This is not a fighter, but I don't think that the matter of producing fighters was strikingly different from attack aircraft. That's the price of your "easy to produce". In order for all this weaponry to be "easy to produce", people lived and died from exhaustion and burnout in factories, not knowing days off or vacations. And those who survived the war "moved away" from this "easy" production for a long time. In order to saturate the troops with weapons for the sake of the shaft, the GKO decree simplified the equipment and weapons even to the point of reducing their performance characteristics. So, I would be more careful with the words "easy to produce".

[sergeyketonov]

Dear, we are talking about peacetime - the 1970s-1980s.

[hagen]

Quote from sergeyketonov

Dear, we are talking about peacetime - the 1970s-1980s.

Can you tell me how it ended? Landing on the oil and gas needle, the transition to imported wheat and, ultimately, 1991 - the collapse of the USSR, the general decline of the economy with defaults and billions of dollars in debt payments to various international banks.

[sergeyketonov]

MiG-21s alone were produced - 500 units per year in the 1970s and even in the 1980s, plus another 100 to 120 Su-15s, and also Su-17, Su-24, MiG-23, MiG-25, in total from Soviet industry produced 1000 to 15000 aircraft per year.

[hagen]

Quote from sergeyketonov

Soviet industry produced only 1000 to 15000 aircraft per year.

At the same time, the production of group B collapsed, and then what I already said above.

[point]

\Lekha from Androyda, above\ ...Moreover, when the Russian Federation achieves victory, it will happen at the expense of the people, post-Soviet people, who still carry something in themselves from past ideals. I don’t deny that the Russian people have been characterized by self-sacrifice and heroism since ancient times, but capitalism is against it! Okay, I’ll correct myself: liberal capitalism of the 90s, based on Washington patterns in the head - this is against the Soviet legacy. The ruling foam wants to convince itself that it has the right to the plundered heritage of the USSR, squeezing out the productive forces... in short, changing its shoes to capitalism. Well, as you said, or rather Saltykov-Shchadrin, this form of imperial patriotism was already dying in the fields from the underdeveloped system of economics and consumption. Because there is no humane capitalist consumption - it is always at the expense of “those who do not fit into the market” - their own or other people’s men.
Oh, it’s no coincidence that egg-headed bespectacled people talk not about “capitalism/socialism”, but about different models of financing innovation - on borrowed capital and on consolidated savings and redistributed intersectoral income.

[jdiver]

it is not beneficial to today's bourgeoisie in Russia who live one day at a time.

Well, if the invention is breakthrough, then instead of implementing it here, which is expensive and hectic and someone else will get the profit later, you can sell it here and now to “respected partners”, and the money will go into your pocket. And then pay “respected partners” exorbitant prices for the purchase of products made not “in this country” but in the “civilized West”. And inventors in Russia somehow later “give more births.”

[Eug]

The An-72/4 layout is also not optimal in terms of fuel consumption, which is why it was never widely used, only for flights from poorly prepared runways. For the main mass transport aircraft, for which the cost of transportation is one of the most important characteristics, the location of the engines above the wing is not suitable... as for me, the customers of the Il-112 clearly overdid it with the internal diameter of the cargo cabin, but I would like to hear more professional opinions.

[Stas157]

The PD-8 turned out to be 600 kg heavier than its old French counterpart with comparable power. Especially if you take the forced version of SaM146. This, in my opinion, is strange. Because newer and more advanced things need to be designed so that they really are like that.
I would be glad to make a mistake.

[d4rkmesa]

There's some kind of murky story with him. But the fact is that it cannot directly replace the Sam-146; according to the “Saturn” tradition, the imported engine is not compatible with the “original” (as with the same marine turbines).

[abc_alex]

Quote: d4rkmesa

There's some kind of murky story with him. But the fact is that it cannot directly replace the Sam-146; according to the “Saturn” tradition, the imported engine is not compatible with the “original” (as with the same marine turbines).

??? And someone set before Saturn to fit engines into import dimensionsreplaceable units? Let me remind you that ship propulsion systems for Saturn are a NON-core product. The NK-32, on the basis of which the ship’s unit is now being made, was not made for import substitution at all. The “land” version of this engine itself was not made for the fleet, but for gas pumping stations.
And directly replace one aircraft engine with another? Is this ever done? As far as I know, replacing an engine is always a difficult task and, at a minimum, requires a test cycle and new certification...

[Amateur]

"Groundhog Day"? An "unsigned" article about replacing the Il-112 with the Il-212 was on VO on 13.10.23. And even then, most commentators agreed that the "212" is not a replacement, but a completely different aircraft that needs to be designed from scratch. But is it necessary/possible to do this, throwing away huge amounts of money and 19 years of work, only to wait another 20 years with unpredictable results due to the "effective managers" in the UAC leadership?

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Amateur

"Groundhog Day"? An "unsigned" article about replacing the Il-112 with the Il-212 was on VO on 13.10.23. And even then, most commentators agreed that the "212" is not a replacement, but a completely different aircraft that needs to be designed from scratch. But is it necessary/possible to do this, throwing away huge amounts of money and 19 years of work, only to wait another 20 years with unpredictable results due to the "effective managers" in the UAC leadership?

There is no need to blame everything on managers.
The problem is the lack of constructors.
Any design school is a process of constant evolution.
And if there was a gap of a couple of generations of designers, if the talented ones in the early 90s went to sell jackets on the market, just to provide for their families, and only useless people remained in factories and design bureaus, then what could they teach?
Losers can only raise poor students.
We have a huge gap in the work of designers.
Evolution not only stopped, it simply ended.
And now, no matter how much you throw money at these industries, it is practically useless to wait for results.
It’s like with the Tajiks pouring the foundation.
You can pay them ten times, provide all the plasticizers, super-duper vibrators, cements and dispensers.
But they will still knead the concrete with hoes, on a sheet of rusty metal, adjusting the proportions by eye.
Because they simply don’t know how to do it differently and don’t know that it’s possible to do it differently and don’t want to learn differently...

[Amateur]

if talented people in the early 90s went to sell jackets at the market, just to provide for their families,

And who “left” them there? These are the “effective managers” who were put in charge of “cutting money”.

[hagen]

Quote: SovAr238A

And now, no matter how much you throw money at these industries, it is practically useless to wait for results.
It’s like with the Tajiks pouring the foundation.

In your opinion, Su-57, Su-34...Ka-52 are smart enough, but with passenger aircraft manufacturing - a gap of two generations and we immediately write them off to the Tajiks?! MS-21 too - "concrete with hoes"? I have doubts that you have any knowledge of the topic. You sprinkle newspaper and Internet cliches, just to humiliate those whose brains you are not up to. Envy is a sin... In my opinion, today technology has become very complicated, and the requirements for safety, environmental friendliness, economy and other parameters have skyrocketed. Today, there is not a single country that would build an aircraft from fossil raw materials to a finished product in 100% of its own localization. And we are trying. And yes, the refusal of technologically developed countries to cooperate slows down these attempts. And to the greatest extent this is manifested today in engine building. Not good? Yes, it's not great... Yes, we strive to make aircraft engines at such a level that they could compete with the products of industry leaders in terms of their parameters. And if this does not work out right away, this does not mean that we should pour a bucket of slop on those who are trying to do this today. Moreover, you yourselves have not grown up in this business even to the dust from their desks. And you show no desire to do so. I think that in the early 2000s, you also did not imagine that we could reach a war with Ukraine. And then a number of aviation projects in Russia were frozen in attempts to build new aircraft jointly with Ukraine. Normal formal logic says that highly integrated countries are least susceptible to conflicts with each other. And therefore, an abundance of joint projects, including in the aviation sector, was considered a way to strengthen ties. Unfortunately, the American "donkey with gold" managed to break and subjugate the top of both the EU and Ukraine. And now we have a war... But the losses are not fatal. And there will be our own engines in the entire range of required characteristics and aircraft, to spite the West and our domestic doomsayers.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Hagen

Quote: SovAr238A

And now, no matter how much you throw money at these industries, it is practically useless to wait for results.
It’s like with the Tajiks pouring the foundation.

In your opinion, Su-57, Su-34...Ka-52 are smart enough, but with passenger aircraft manufacturing - a gap of two generations and we immediately write them off to the Tajiks?! MS-21 too - "concrete with hoes"? I have doubts that you have any knowledge of the topic. You sprinkle newspaper and Internet cliches, just to humiliate those whose brains you are not up to. Envy is a sin... In my opinion, today technology has become very complicated, and the requirements for safety, environmental friendliness, economy and other parameters have skyrocketed. Today, there is not a single country that would build an aircraft from fossil raw materials to a finished product in 100% of its own localization. And we are trying. And yes, the refusal of technologically developed countries to cooperate slows down these attempts. And to the greatest extent this is manifested today in engine building. Not good? Yes, it's not great... Yes, we strive to make aircraft engines at such a level that they could compete with the products of industry leaders in terms of their parameters. And if this does not work out right away, this does not mean that we should pour a bucket of slop on those who are trying to do this today. Moreover, you yourselves have not grown up in this business even to the dust from their desks. And you show no desire to do so. I think that in the early 2000s, you also did not imagine that we could reach a war with Ukraine. And then a number of aviation projects in Russia were frozen in attempts to build new aircraft jointly with Ukraine. Normal formal logic says that highly integrated countries are least susceptible to conflicts with each other. And therefore, an abundance of joint projects, including in the aviation sector, was considered a way to strengthen ties. Unfortunately, the American "donkey with gold" managed to break and subjugate the top of both the EU and Ukraine. And now we have a war... But the losses are not fatal. And there will be our own engines in the entire range of required characteristics and aircraft, to spite the West and our domestic doomsayers.

Su-34, 57 are the essence of Soviet projects and developments.
MS-21, also came out of the Soviet school on the Yak-242...
Moreover, almost 60 years later than the Boeing 737...
In total, more than 21 trillion rubles were spent on becoming the MS-1.
For all developers and subcontractors.
Not counting the engines...
Which are already about 20 years behind.
Yes, we will have our own plane.
But it will not be modern at all.

And yes, I have visited the workshops of TsSKB Progress many times before, and I have also been to Kuznetsov about a hundred times.
In the early 2000s, he was on the team that tried to restore the Samara (Kuibyshev) Aviation Plant. Which is the 18th.
On which the Tu-154, Tu-95, Tu-142 were previously made.
Even then they were unable to return quality personnel.
They had already left for good and did not return even for good money.
And I saw those people who worked.
These were losers.
Really bad students.
In all.
The result with space, aviation, engines in Samara and the country is already known to everyone.

[hagen]

Quote: SovAr238A

These were losers.
Really bad students.
In all.

This is because all the geniuses gathered at VO. That's not enough for production...

[abc_alex]

Quote: Hagen

In your opinion, the Su 57, Su-34...Ka 52 is smart enough

Ka-52 is a separate story, what was smart enough for is a moot point.
And Sukhoi's zoo is the result of Pogosyanovism, the hyperconcentration of intellectual resources in one single design bureau. In fact, most Soviet aviation companies today exist only in name. Neither Yakovlev, nor Tupolev, nor Beriev, nor Mesishchev, and even Ilyushin, as it turns out, have extremely limited legal capacity. We need to accept this reality - in Russia today only one design bureau can properly develop an aircraft - Sukhoi. The rest are in the wings.

[Pankrat25]

The question of the possibilities of production workers remains open. How much will it be possible to increase the production of the PD-8 (or its versions) if the civilian fleet requires 40-60 aircraft engines annually? Will you have to choose between the military Il-212 and the “peaceful” SJ-100? If a passenger aircraft is in demand abroad, then the prospects for engine manufacturers are generally gloomy.

For this purpose, there is such a thing as duplicate production. For example, the engine plant in Kazan is virtually idle. It is not even a third as busy as it was during the Soviet period.

[Revolver]

If a passenger aircraft is in demand abroad, then the prospects for engine manufacturers are generally gloomy.

As long as there are sanctions, there will be no foreign sales, well, maybe to Iran or North Korea. And when the sanctions are lifted, airlines will rush for Boeings and Arbuz.

[mark1]

Therefore, of two evils - waiting for the TV7-117S to be finalized for several more years or urgently redesigning the aircraft for the sake of the finished PD-8 - we chose the second. After all, it is much easier to build a new aircraft around a working engine than vice versa.

Ha ha ha! And who said that it is more efficient than TV7-117? Appointed as such?
I don't know, but I see this whole story a little differently - the 5-6 tg aircraft is not going anywhere, there is just a delay with the Manturov TVRS, which they are trying to carry out instead of the Il-112 (if it doesn't work out, then the 112th will be reborn like a phoenix), and the 212th is a new project in which the only thing that will be left from the original is the pilot's cabin and it is considered a consolation option (although, of course, the aircraft itself is needed)

[Alex 1970]

Unfortunately, the last thirty-odd years of life have taught me to be wary of promises of anything good, and if it's from the state, then I start to worry that something might happen. But here I'm just bursting with optimism. And somewhere deep down, a naive hope still glimmers, what if it works out and we'll go ! But you have to pull yourself together so as not to be disappointed again.

[Foma Kinyaev]

In short, some semblance of MTS or Tu-330 emerges. Yes, and rightly so. The An-12 needs to be replaced. And if we turn to the topic of the article, where is Rostec, there is victory.

[d4rkmesa]

The Tu-330, if we talk about a payload of 32 tons, will require 2 engines more powerful than the PS-90A. MTS in the version that was demonstrated to the Indians and the Moscow Region is not needed at all.

[GUKTU76]

Indestructible. Everyone knows how to teach, heal, play football and build airplanes. Especially under conditions of sanctions and integration into the global economy. There will always be a bunch of mosquitoes who know what and how an elephant needs to do. And only the very lazy don’t talk about this elephant’s appetite.

Essentially the article. The tasks facing the country and its aircraft industry are extremely difficult. It is clear that an outside observer can hardly help. But why are there so many of those who constantly whine and get in the way while doing their important and necessary work for the country?

[mark1]

Quote: GUKTU76

There will always be a bunch of mosquitoes who know what and how an elephant needs to do. And only the very lazy don’t talk about this elephant’s appetite.

Quote: GUKTU76

Why are there so many of those who constantly whine and get in the way while doing their important and necessary work for the country?

The leitmotif is a big giraffe, he knows better!

[Vadim S]

They will definitely give birth to something, and then they will finish it for a long time. In general, the war gave a good kick to the entire system at all levels, at least something began to move.

[Vladimir80]

Quote: Vadim S

the war gave a good kick to the entire system at all levels, at least something began to move.

Unfortunately, this is a misconception. Occasionally, the appearance of a “movement” is created by the media, but in fact, either everything is in place, or there is regression. My theses can be easily proven - all those responsible for the failures of import substitution and the placement of funds in enemy countries have retained their positions and continue to saw through the remains of the country.

[Krilion]

I can’t shake the feeling of total schizophrenia and professional helplessness in the aircraft industry... all I can see is an imitation of vigorous activity, which boils down to eating up budgets... and the output is complete zero...

In 1945 the war ended. the country was in ruins, everything was destroyed... and despite this, in 1957 the USSR had already launched Sputnik, and in 1961 - the first manned space flight... only 12 years had passed before the first date, only 16 years before the second... and today's Russia under the strict guidance of the beholder - a bald bastard and his collection of effective managers, during the 30 years of their power they could not do ANYTHING... they ruined everything they could...

[URAL72]

You should be more careful with your words, otherwise your epic about the beholder falls under the article of the Criminal Code. And VPN won't help here , well, unless you are in Kyiv. But we’ll go there soon for some tea. If we compare Russia today and Russia in 1999, when the “looker” first appeared, then this is heaven and earth. I hope the sanctions will be a good inoculation for Russian business, and they will invest more in the country rather than drive them to the West. It's the fault of the one not looking. And you are probably 200 years old, since you still have the tsar to blame for everything. Increase your level of education, dig deeper. Maybe you will find your fault in the fall of the country

[vovochkarzhevsky]

In short, the military-industrial complex of the modern Russian Federation admits that it is no longer capable of producing an aircraft to replace the An-26. Because this structure was built only to “adopt” budget money without any responsibility. The Il-112V can’t cut much anymore, so they pushed it back and started working on the Il-212. And there is no doubt that the result will be the same.

[jdiver]

It's not all bad. At least the level of plywood biplanes should be exactly within the capabilities of our effective managers from the ranks of managers from the aviation industry. There, the skill of total cutting will at least somehow be useful in business. Since no one is going to send such master saws to logging yet.

[d4rkmesa]

PD-8 is not a scaling of PD-14. The PD-14 has just been put into mass production and its current characteristics have not been confirmed. No other engine has been created based on the PD-14.

[anclevalico]

With this gas generator, it’s just some kind of circus. Create a new engine, instead of copying a gas generator. And what is it about the TV engine that two years after the disaster cannot be corrected and it is better to tune the PD by redoing the entire airframe. It's like putting a truck engine into a car. Once again I am convinced that we need to start with education, because the design school has been completely destroyed. And it’s not specialists who rule, but effective managers, the sons of geniuses at the trough. There is a complete inability to set specific goals and systematically achieve them. Metal from corner to corner. Budgets are spent in the billions, but the emissions are zero. Apparently, the samurai has no goal; the path itself suits him.

[Maks1995]

Well.
The anecdote about Nasredin is just right for the situation.
And so, all the leaders were not held accountable.
Rogozin Jr. got hooked on the money for the UAV. Senior - became the head of the region

[faiver]

But on the Il-114, the engines are also on top of the wing, or what?

[Alexey RA]

Engines mounted on the wing will significantly complicate maintenance, but there will be a bonus in the form of increased lift. We are talking about the Coanda effect, that is, increasing the efficiency of the wing due to the jet stream blowing onto the upper plane. Only for this purpose the aircraft engine should be moved forward relative to the leading edge of the wing.

Our designers have already stepped on the rake of the Coanda effect on the An-72. In theory, yes, everything was great. But in practice it turned out that all the advantages are eaten up due to losses of engine thrust and friction of the jet stream on the surface of the wing.
An-72:

The company's specialists initially understood that using the Coanda effect would have to pay with losses in engine thrust and increased fuel consumption, but still, calculated and experimental data allowed us to hope for a better picture than what actually turned out. To establish a “final diagnosis”, a special laboratory installation was built, which was placed in a high-altitude pressure chamber at the Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM). The experiments carried out were aimed at determining engine thrust losses both in the nozzle itself and at the exit from it due to friction of the jet stream on the surface of the wing. “When we received the results, we were horrified,” recalls V.G. Anisenko. – The losses were huge! There were even proposals to completely abandon the use of the Coanda effect, using a circular nozzle and directing the gas stream in such a way as to minimize its friction on the wing.

An-74:

...the vehicle retained the increased structural mass characteristic of STOL aircraft, and the overhead placement of the engines led not only to thrust losses, but also to an increase in aerodynamic drag. The latter was caused by the fact that high-speed jet streams washed large areas of the wing area and “licked” the side surfaces of the fuselage, and this led to an increase in friction drag. As a result, fuel consumption was overestimated

© Jet all-terrain vehicle. AiV No. 3, 2008

[Vert]

The Il 212 VTOL aircraft will have 16 tons of thrust for 25 tons of its own weight, it won’t be enough, well, lifting engines will be installed there, like on the Yak 38 m and Yak 41-141, and there will be sabotage happiness.

[Zaurbek]

To be honest, the problems with the turboprop engine are not entirely clear.... VK2500 is mass-produced.... but we don't even see a turboprop engine for an aircraft with a capacity of 2500 hp. It's strange. The country produced AI and NK engines with a capacity of 4000 hp. That is, there should be documentation and developments. The NK 12 is still being produced (repaired and used), and it is a twin unit.

[TermNachTer]

TV 7 - 117 is very different from VK - 2500, the compressor is completely different.

[TermNachTer]

If we move to the next class, that is, we make some analogue of An - 12, then two D - 27 would be more logical.

[Zaurbek]

If you are tied to the motor that is available, then you need to do it with PD-8 and using SSG systems

[URAL72]

It was reported that the PD-8 is made in the dimensions of SaM146, with a fan diameter of 1228 mm, has a bypass ratio of 4,4 and a dry weight of 1690 kg (with an engine nacelle - 2300 kg). At the same time, in comparison with the “analogue engine”, which, obviously, in the presentation meant SaM146, specific fuel consumption in cruising mode will be reduced by 3% (up to 0,61 kg/kgf.h) and noise level by 5 EPNdB.

So 2300 kg is not dry weight at all. But thanks to the author for the good news. But that's not it. IL -112 is a different class of cars. So PD-8 has nothing to do with this program. TV-117 needs to be improved. Or make a new one from scratch. And since we are talking about a jet engine, then we have the VK-2500 in the 3000-2500 kgf class, with the Yak-130

[Zaurbek]

If the PD-8 has 8 tons of thrust, then such a transport aircraft is approximately equal to the An12.

[Zaurbek]

We need to make an airplane for the BTA based on what already exists.
1. TV3-117
2. PD-8
3. PD-14
4. PS-90.


Let's say we don't fit the standard size, but there are serial SSZh, Il76, Tu204. With serial turbojet engines, avionics and auxiliary systems. And at the same time, we need transport aircraft based on passenger ones. And at some airfields, maybe it would be cheaper to make a concrete runway for passenger planes?!

[Radical]

Quote: GUKTU76

Indestructible. Everyone knows how to teach, heal, play football and build airplanes. Especially under conditions of sanctions and integration into the global economy. There will always be a bunch of mosquitoes who know what and how an elephant needs to do. And only the very lazy don’t talk about this elephant’s appetite.

Essentially the article. The tasks facing the country and its aircraft industry are extremely difficult. It is clear that an outside observer can hardly help. But why are there so many of those who constantly whine and get in the way while doing their important and necessary work for the country?

Is that so?
What kind of "important and necessary thing" (sorry for the tautology) have people in power been doing for over 30 years - they still can't finish gnawing away at the Soviet country? Haven't all the defense and other factories/manufacturing facilities gone bankrupt yet, and haven't used the liberated territories for predatory mortgage housing construction?
The country, under Stalin's leadership, transformed from an agrarian country into an industrial country in 30 years, was able to win the most destructive world war that human history had never seen, and then create a nuclear bomb, and eventually became the second power in the world! And what did "these" drivers, in addition to all sorts of summits, forums, exhibitions, do in 30 years???!!! How many machine-building enterprises, aircraft factories, radio-electronic industry enterprises, and similar facilities were built? To paraphrase the expression, appearing on TV at all sorts of summits/forums, giving "instructions" to the government is not like lifting sacks!

[vvn_vl]

The cause of the Manturovs, Christians, Dvorkovichs, Pogosyans, etc. lives and wins...

[shikin]

also a light Ladoga, replacing the An-2

- Ladoga is just replacing the An-24 (can be operated from unpaved airfields), and the Baikal is replacing the An-2, for which UZGA is developing its own engine - VK-800SM.
And Ladoga is equipped with the TV7-117ST-02 version with a power of 2400 hp. (deformed), perhaps there will be fewer problems with it

[Magician Goodwin]

Nothing surprising. Since the 90s, our universities have trained mainly all kinds of managers. And interest in engineering only decreased. In addition, even if you want to study to become an engineer, today there are many obstacles: there are no necessary teachers. There are only old teachers left who can no longer learn new technologies and cannot create productively. And the managers can only do sawing, which is what they demonstrate.

[ln_ln]

. There are only old teachers left who can no longer learn new technologies.

Teachers must provide Basic knowledge. How to master new technologies if a person does not understand the meaning of Newton's 3rd law?

[16112014nk]

Quote: your vsr 66-67

Was this possible while governing...the country?
I.V. Stalin?

Under Stalin, a failed leader could lose his life. Under Brezhnev - with a position. And now they are rewarding and promoting for it. A simple example - deputy. prev Prospect Golikov.
Something is wrong in the “Danish kingdom”.

[Adrey]

How much will it be possible to increase the production of the PD-8 (or its versions) if the civilian fleet requires 40-60 aircraft engines annually? Will you have to choose between the military Il-212 and the “peaceful” SJ-100? If

You won't have to. This “krokazyabra” (Il-212) will never be lifted into the air. The topic is for “cutting” for 15 years and that’s it.

[vovochkarzhevsky]

The topic of TV7-117 is not closed. Moreover, the engine is very promising. Moreover, the Il-112V aircraft is a real-life aircraft and the crash of the first flight prototype is not a reason to close the program. You just need to work and bring the car to mind. But it's a lot of work and not a lot of money to cut. And the Ilyushin OKB, after Rogozin’s youngest son took the helm there, exists only nominally. There is already a larger group of “effective” managers there. Hence the new “topic”, in fact a new cut.

[Diverter]

My deep couch opinion.
1. Restore production of the An-12 by purchasing a license from the Chinese. Call it the Il-112 and produce it somewhere in Samara, constantly modernizing it to a modern level. The engine may be old, but we have it. In the future, we will replace it.

2. If the PD-8 is ready, then it is still possible to restore the AN-72/74 with this engine, also modernizing it to a modern level. Here is the Il-172.
This could have been thought out a long time ago and already implemented.

3. Buy a license from Iran for the An 148 and continue to produce it, only adapting it to the PD-8 with a name change to Il 148
Iran does not produce this aircraft, which means a license can be purchased very inexpensively. Here is another civil regional.

4. This monstrosity, which killed the crew in 2021, is only worthy of being placed in a museum with a sign: “How not to build an airplane.” The designers who participated in its development should be demoted or fired.

5. We need many different engines. We need to significantly expand their production. This is important for the state.

[Diverter]

I’ll add something about constructors. It's still better to go to jail.
As an option.
They could have installed two engines from the An-12/Be-12/Il-18/Il-38. Yes, old, but very reliable and proven Ai-20.
They don’t think about the Motherland....

[osp]

Quote: Hagen

Quote: SovAr238A

And now, no matter how much you throw money at these industries, it is practically useless to wait for results.
It’s like with the Tajiks pouring the foundation.

In your opinion, Su-57, Su-34...Ka-52 are smart enough, but with passenger aircraft manufacturing - a gap of two generations and we immediately write them off to the Tajiks?! MS-21 too - "concrete with hoes"? I have doubts that you have any knowledge of the topic. You sprinkle newspaper and Internet cliches, just to humiliate those whose brains you are not up to. Envy is a sin... In my opinion, today technology has become very complicated, and the requirements for safety, environmental friendliness, economy and other parameters have skyrocketed. Today, there is not a single country that would build an aircraft from fossil raw materials to a finished product in 100% of its own localization. And we are trying. And yes, the refusal of technologically developed countries to cooperate slows down these attempts. And to the greatest extent this is manifested today in engine building. Not good? Yes, it's not great... Yes, we strive to make aircraft engines at such a level that they could compete with the products of industry leaders in terms of their parameters. And if this does not work out right away, this does not mean that we should pour a bucket of slop on those who are trying to do this today. Moreover, you yourselves have not grown up in this business even to the dust from their desks. And you show no desire to do so. I think that in the early 2000s, you also did not imagine that we could reach a war with Ukraine. And then a number of aviation projects in Russia were frozen in attempts to build new aircraft jointly with Ukraine. Normal formal logic says that highly integrated countries are least susceptible to conflicts with each other. And therefore, an abundance of joint projects, including in the aviation sector, was considered a way to strengthen ties. Unfortunately, the American "donkey with gold" managed to break and subjugate the top of both the EU and Ukraine. And now we have a war... But the losses are not fatal. And there will be our own engines in the entire range of required characteristics and aircraft, to spite the West and our domestic doomsayers.

What electronic equipment is on the Su-34 and when did it make its first flight?
In 1990, he made his first flight.
Its electronic equipment in terms of optics and radar is from approximately the same period.
Just like other electronics.
It turns out that the aircraft is being produced and is in service.
Only in terms of weapons and electronic equipment it is 30 years behind modern requirements.
Even more so in terms of visibility.
The engines there are 40 years old, simple Al-31F.
For all these 33 years, not a single country in the world has shown interest in it.

[osp]

Quote: Saboteur

My deep couch opinion.
1. Restore production of the An-12 by purchasing a license from the Chinese. Call it the Il-112 and produce it somewhere in Samara, constantly modernizing it to a modern level. The engine may be old, but we have it. In the future, we will replace it.

2. If the PD-8 is ready, then it is still possible to restore the AN-72/74 with this engine, also modernizing it to a modern level. Here is the Il-172.
This could have been thought out a long time ago and already implemented.

3. Buy a license from Iran for the An 148 and continue to produce it, only adapting it to the PD-8 with a name change to Il 148
Iran does not produce this aircraft, which means a license can be purchased very inexpensively. Here is another civil regional.

4. This monstrosity, which killed the crew in 2021, is only worthy of being placed in a museum with a sign: “How not to build an airplane.” The designers who participated in its development should be demoted or fired.

5. We need many different engines. We need to significantly expand their production. This is important for the state.

This Il-112 was equipped with a hastily made modification of helicopter engines.
They overheated and there were complaints about this.
There were many complaints about the power plant.
And the Il-114 was previously supposedly designed for production with the Uzbeks for these engines.
But there is also zero.

[Diverter]

YES, I know that. Was it possible to install AI 20? I'm sure it was. And let them further improve TV117.

[Cook]

There have already been experiments with the AI-20: it is called the An-32. Like the An-72/74, these are special niche aircraft, not suitable for mass use. You can make a small pylon to mount the engine under the wing, we will gain in fuel consumption and speed, but lose in takeoff and landing characteristics. The advantage of a turbofan is that it does not cause losses, it provides air flow over the wing with a speed greater than the flight speed of the aircraft. In the event of an engine failure, this advantage turns into an unpleasant disadvantage, as in the case of installing a turbofan engine above the wing, like the 72/74. The An-74, even without a full takeoff weight, with the failure of one engine, the vertical is 0,5 - 1 m / s, given that the working engine on the ChR is working. I personally participated and observed this.

[Greyfox]

So much nonsense in one article.
- "The production of the L-410 has been postponed to 2027" there will be no L-410. So much so that it has already been announced that "Russia and Belarus will create a new aircraft in partnership that will replace the Czech L-410, said Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Oleg Bocharov at the HeliRussia-2023 exhibition."
- “The problem of the Il-114-100 was the TV7-117ST-01 engine.” The problem of the Il-114 was the Ilyushin design bureau, which is so impotent that it kicks away from its brainchild with all its arms and legs
- “PD-6 or PD-4. Theoretically, there is nothing complicated about this. PD-8, we recall, was built by scaling the older PD-14.” Oha, it's not difficult. Oh well. PD-8 is a marriage alliance to reproduce the hot part of the Sam-146 based on the technical solutions of the PD-14, but not scaling in any way.
- "as well as the light "Ladoga", which is replacing the An-2". The "Baikal" with the VK-2 engine is replacing the An-800. "Ladoga", also known as TVRS-44, is replacing the An-24 and when it appears, the Il-114 may turn out to be unnecessary and unclaimed, especially considering the "enthusiasm" of the Ilyushin Design Bureau for the Il-114

[Dimax-nemo]

Quote: Greyfox

So much nonsense in one article.
- "The production of the L-410 has been postponed to 2027" there will be no L-410. So much so that it has already been announced that "Russia and Belarus will create a new aircraft in partnership that will replace the Czech L-410, said Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Oleg Bocharov at the HeliRussia-2023 exhibition."

I wonder who and what new things can be created there, and in such a short time? If only the Be-30 is removed... but for it, the most significant problem will be the engines.

Quote: Greyfox

- “The problem of the Il-114-100 was the TV7-117ST-01 engine.” The problem of the Il-114 was the Ilyushin design bureau, which is so impotent that it kicks away from its brainchild with all its arms and legs

Indeed, it is not entirely clear how the original Il-114 flew with the original TV7-117, and the “new” Il-114 suddenly needed the TV7-117ST boosted to the limit. At one time, the Ilyushinites even pushed the idea of ​​abandoning the Il-114 altogether and making a passenger plane from the Il-112, a la the An-24/26. But they were quickly explained that the IL-112 would not be able to replace the IL-114.

Quote: Greyfox

- “PD-6 or PD-4. Theoretically, there is nothing complicated about this. PD-8, we recall, was built by scaling the older PD-14.” Oha, it's not difficult. Oh well. PD-8 is a marriage alliance to reproduce the hot part of the Sam-146 based on the technical solutions of the PD-14, but not scaling in any way.

And after all this, it will still be necessary to make a theater of war out of it. Does anyone think that there is not much difference between the gas generators of turbofan and turboprop/turboshaft engines?

Quote: Greyfox

- "as well as the light "Ladoga", which is replacing the An-2". The "Baikal" with the VK-2 engine is replacing the An-800. "Ladoga", also known as TVRS-44, is replacing the An-24 and when it appears, the Il-114 may turn out to be unnecessary and unclaimed, especially considering the "enthusiasm" of the Ilyushin Design Bureau for the Il-114

Ladoga will not have the range of the Il-114. But in general, at one time, the Il-114 was supposed to replace, among other things, the An-24.

[Dimax-nemo]

They were making a replacement for the An-26, but they wanted more than what the An-26 could do. They wanted to squeeze in a standard cargo air container. As a result, they got a "tadpole" for which 2,5 thousand hp engines were no longer enough. UEC did not want to make a new VK-3500 engine (in fact, it is not a fact that Klimov would have been able to handle it, it already has VK-650 and VK-1600, the VK-800 was pushed off to Ulyanovsk). They had to push the TV7-117 to the limit. This engine was created back in the late 80s of the last century, and, strictly speaking, is outdated. It was not debugged in serial production. It is unlikely that squeezing "well, kitty, just a little more" out of it could have led to a good result. The TV7-117 is made in cooperation with UEC enterprises, but many essential parts are manufactured at MMP im. V.V. Chernysheva, which should soon "move" to Salyut. Guess for yourself (and if you don't guess, then https://dzen.ru/a/Y0DBi-hMyAebp_ER )....
In short, this is not how new technology is made. “I blinded you from what happened...”. It was necessary either not to show off and to make an aircraft that would be able to handle the existing engines, and at the same time to invest in mass production of these engines, or to make new engines for the desired specifications (but again, a new production base was needed). The failure of the TV-117ST program in such conditions was expected. And along with it - Il-112, Il-114, Mi-38, TVRS-44 Ladoga, most likely Lampreys.
PS: I may be wrong, but it still seems to me that it is easier to “squeeze” the Il-112 fuselage under the TV7-117 than to disfigure the wing and everything else under the PD-8. Both are already new planes, but in the second case they are already completely new. TV7-117 can be brought to fruition if desired, if you are serious about it, incl. on the part of investments in mass production.

[2al]

Does the author even know that there is a TV7-117V on the Mi-38 helicopter? That TV3-113 is a very long and consistent modernization of TV2-117, which has a total operating time of more than 100 million hours?
Moreover, the Il-112V crash cannot be blamed only on the engine, without taking into account the circumstances under which the disaster occurred, which made it inevitable.

[lelik613]

Why not the IL-1112 right away? Don't skimp on ink and paper.