How the Wehrmacht stopped the Anglo-American Avalanche

40
How the Wehrmacht stopped the Anglo-American Avalanche
Soldiers of the 143rd Infantry Regiment of the US 36th Infantry Division land on a beach from landing craft (LSVP) near the Italian city of Salerno. September 9, 1943

Anglo-American troops, despite complete superiority at sea and in the air, and significant manpower, were unable to immediately capture most of Italy. By the end of September 1943, the Allies occupied about a quarter of Italy.

Operation Avalanche - Avalanche


On September 9, 1943, the main forces of the Allied army began landing in Italy (Operation Baytown). The 5th American Army of General Mark Clark, which consisted of two corps - the 6th American (6 infantry divisions) and the 10th British (2 infantry and one armored), began landing in the Salerno area, in the southwest of the peninsula. There were three divisions in the first echelon.



The Allies planned to capture the port of Naples and airfields in the area at the first stage of the operation, creating a springboard for a further offensive. The width of the landing site was about 60 km and included Salerno, the gulf coast to the south and west of it.

The Allies were opposed by the German 16th tank division, which occupied the defense on the right flank at Salerno and on the left at the Sale River. The Germans managed to prepare strong points, but the work on mining and creating barriers was not completed.

On the night of September 8, 1943, convoys with landing forces, which had about 450 ships and vessels of various classes, left Tripoli, Oran, Bizerte, Palermo and a day later entered the Gulf of Salerno. Airborne flotilla approached the shore at a distance of approximately 20 km. On the night of September 9, the Union aviation attacked enemy positions in the landing area, and in the morning the coastal batteries were hit by naval artillery.


An American destroyer lays a smoke screen during Operation Avalanche before the landing at Salerno. The photo was taken from the light cruiser Philadelphia.


American soldiers land ashore near Salerno from LCI-220

Minesweepers cleared the passages of mines. The first echelon troops switched from transports to landing craft and went to the shore. The landing began at 4:30 am. At first the Germans were silent. Only when the paratroopers landed on the shore did the Germans open fire with cannons, mortars and machine guns. The paratroopers, having overcome barbed wire barriers, moved deeper into the sand dunes. The Germans increased their fire, several landing craft were damaged, and some turned back. The landing troops were pinned to the ground, or even turned back.

The Germans counterattacked with the forces of the 16th Panzer Division and in some places pushed back the enemy. However, the Allies had complete air supremacy, greater naval artillery power, and were able to suppress enemy firing positions. The paratroopers captured the necessary bridgehead. By the end of September 11, the 36th American Division had advanced 15 km, the British occupied Salerno and the coastal strip south of it to a depth of 20 km. German aircraft attacked British troops and the Allied fleet, damaging several ships.


British troops and equipment of the 128th Infantry Brigade, 46th Infantry Division, disembark from the American tank landing ship USS LST-383 at Salerno during the landings in southern Italy. Operation Avalanche. September 9, 1943


Spitfire Mk.Vc Tropical fighter of the 307th Squadron of the 31st Fighter Group of the 12th Air Force of the US Air Force. The plane was damaged, according to one source, by return fire from a German Do bomber. 217, on others – by friendly fire. In the background, a tank landing ship of the LST type is visible, from which the American 817th Engineer Aviation Battalion is being unloaded ashore

German counter strike


The German command hastily withdraws troops from Southern Italy (76th Panzer Corps) to the landing site of the main enemy forces. Only small rearguards and sappers remained against the British, destroying communications. This allows the 8th British Army to easily occupy the cities of Catanzaro and Nicastro by the end of September 10.

On September 9, the allied forces carried out another landing operation - “Farce” (“Slapstick”). The British 1st Airborne Division, supported by the 12th Cruiser Force, landed at Taranto, an important Italian naval base. There were almost no German forces there, and the British landed right at the port. The city, port and airfield in the surrounding area were occupied without resistance. Further Allied movement was held back by the German 1st Parachute Division.

The slowness of the allied army allowed the Germans to bring two divisions to the Salerno area - the Hermann Goering tank division and the 15th motorized division. The first reinforcements arrived on September 10, strengthening the defenses of the 16th Panzer Division. The arrival of two divisions of the 76th Panzer Corps was delayed due to fuel shortages. By September 13, the Germans brought up units of the 29th motorized and 26th tank divisions.


The hit of a 1-kg FX-400 gliding bomb from a Dornier Do 1400K aircraft from the 217th Bomber Squadron (KG 100) of the Luftwaffe hit the American light cruiser Savannah Salerno. The bomb hit the cruiser on the roof of the third main caliber tower and, having broken through it, exploded in the interior of the ship. The cruiser received heavy damage and lost 100 crew members killed. Savannah managed to reach Malta to undergo repairs. Further repairs and modernization took place in Philadelphia until September 197, 4.

On September 13, in the afternoon, the Germans, with the help of two tank and motorized divisions, launched a strong counterattack on the American troops and split them into two parts. Two American divisions were defeated and rolled back to the shore. The next day, the Germans were going to crush the northern part of the allied group. The Allied command had to take urgent measures to preserve the bridgehead. When the Germans tried to build on their first success on the morning of the 14th, large forces of the Allied Air Force were thrown into battle and naval artillery was used. On September 14 alone, Allied aviation made more than 700 sorties.

Large reinforcements are transferred to the bridgehead: the 82nd American Airborne, 7th British Armored and 45th American Infantry Divisions. By September 15, the Allies were able to strengthen their position. The German defenses were subjected to heavy attacks from the air and from ships. The Allied fleet operated completely without interference.

The Germans, having brought up the last units of the 26th Division and a regiment of the 3rd Motorized Division from Rome, counterattacked again on September 16. But the Allies had a great advantage in firepower (they were supported by the navy) and aviation. German attacks on September 16 were unsuccessful. The Germans failed to throw the enemy troops into the sea.

The success of the Allied landing operation was due to several factors.

Firstly, complete superiority at sea and in the air.

Secondly, at first the Germans did not know where the main attack would be, and it was necessary to resolve the issue with the Italian Armed Forces. This did not allow us to concentrate forces and resources.

Thirdly, the German group lacks strength. Hitler and Rommel believed that it was enough to hold Northern Italy, the area of ​​Rome. The commander of Army Group Southern Italy, Kesselring, was prohibited from using reserves from the northern Army Group.



Tank Pz. Kpfw. IV Ausf. H of the 8th company of the 26th tank regiment of the 26th tank division, knocked out on the road near Salerno. On September 14, 1943, this unit took part in an attack on American positions south of Salerno, losing 9 out of 14 vehicles. The vehicles were hit by anti-tank artillery fire and Bazooka RPGs.


A column of tanks from the 26th Tank Regiment of the Wehrmacht, destroyed on the road near Salerno


Destroyed German tank Pz. Kpfw. IV Ausf. H in the area of ​​the Italian city of Salerno

Development of the offensive of the allied army


Meanwhile, the Germans quite successfully withdrew troops from the south of the peninsula, holding a section of the coast north of Salerno, retreated to a new line and took up defense with a front to the south. On September 8, units of the 16th British Army linked up with the Americans southwest of Salerno. A single front line of the 15th Army Group was created on the Apennine Peninsula. On September 18, the Americans, finding that the enemy had left, moved north.

The commander of the 15th Army Group, Harold Alexander, set the task on September 21, 1943 to develop an offensive in order to occupy Rome with its airfields and the communications hub of Terni, north of the Italian capital, by the end of the year. Moving along the western coast of the peninsula behind the retreating German units, the Americans entered Naples on October 1. On October 6, the American army reached the Volturno River.

On the east coast, the British occupied Foggia and major airfields in its vicinity on September 25. The Allies attached great importance to these airfields. From them it was possible to carry out raids on important targets in Northern Italy, Austria, Germany, the Balkans and Romania. On October 6, British troops reached Termoli. As a result, the allied armies reached the line of the Volturno, Campobasso and Termoli rivers.


Map of German defensive fortifications south of Rome

After a preparatory pause, on the night of October 12, 1943, American troops crossed the lower Volturno along an 80-kilometer stretch. In two days, the Americans advanced only 5–10 km. Until the end of the month, the Americans had not achieved success. The British on the east coast did not begin their offensive until 26 October.

The German command calmly and organizedly withdrew troops to new positions. In essence, the Anglo-American troops followed the systematically retreating German army. In early November, the Germans began withdrawing troops to “winter positions,” which ran through the narrowest part of the Apennines southeast of Gaeta and Pescara. Anglo-American troops reached this line in early November.

Attempts to break through the German defenses were unsuccessful. The Allied command was not going to tear the veins by storming the German positions. The front has stabilized.


German half-track tractor Sd. Kfz. 9 is transported on a low-loader 23-ton trailer Sd. Ah. 116 tank Pz. Kpfw IV. The truck on the right side of the photo in the background is a 3-ton Opel Blitz model 3.6-6700 A. Autumn 1943.

"Vesuvius"


During the same period, the Allies occupied Corsica. There were 4 Italian divisions on the island (including two coastal divisions) plus auxiliary units. By the time Italy surrendered, the Germans in Corsica had only the SS assault brigade “Reichsführer SS” numbering about 4 thousand people and several small anti-aircraft and rear units. These forces were not enough to disarm the Italians and organize the defense of the island.

The commander of the German forces, General Zenger, decided to evacuate the 90th Motorized Division from Sardinia to Corsica, followed by the relocation of all German troops to the continent. To achieve this, the SS brigade took control of the port of Bonifacio in the south of the island on September 9. On September 13, to evacuate troops from Corsica to Livorno, the port of Bastia in the north, which had previously been controlled by the Italians, was captured. To ensure communications between the south and north of the island, a road running along the eastern coast was used.

As a result, General Zenger concentrated his efforts not on the defense of the island, but on ensuring an orderly evacuation from Corsica. In total, it was necessary to evacuate a 30-strong group with equipment and supplies.

On Corsica, as part of Operation Vesuvius, on the western coast of the island, which was not controlled by German troops, on September 12, the 1st battle group of the 4th mountain Moroccan division from the Free French forces began landing in the port of Ajaccio. Under the command of General Henry Martin there were about 6 thousand soldiers, reinforced with armored vehicles. On September 21, an agreement was reached between the French and Italians on a joint attack on Bastia along a mountain road passing through the center of the island. The offensive was also supported by Corsican partisans - up to 12 thousand people.

On September 16, the active evacuation of German troops began, with which Italian units that remained loyal to Mussolini were leaving. Personnel were evacuated mainly by air from three airfields in the north of the island; heavy weapons and equipment were exported by sea through the port of Bastia. On September 17, the Americans landed in Sardinia, where the Germans had left.

On September 23, the Germans left the bridgehead in the south of Corsica and began to retreat north. During the retreat, the Germans destroyed the bridges on the eastern road, and also destroyed all the port facilities at Bonifacio and Porto-Vecchio. The Italian Cremona division, which was based in this area, did not provide opposition to the Germans during their retreat.

In the 20s of September, the Allies sharply intensified air operations. Anglo-American aircraft began raids on the port of Bastia and German airfields in an attempt to disrupt the evacuation. Several transports and ferries were sunk. 11 Junkers transport aircraft were shot down over the sea. The Germans began to carry out air evacuation mainly at night.

On September 25, Franco-Italian troops began to concentrate south and west of Bastia. They were held back by an SS assault brigade. By the night of October 4, the Germans completed the systematic evacuation. The remains of equipment and military equipment were destroyed by German sappers. The Germans also destroyed the port.

Overall it was a success for the Wehrmacht. The Allies had superiority at sea and in the air, but allowed an entire enemy corps to escape with weapons and material reserves.

Corsica was the first region of France liberated from occupation. Corsica was occupied by American troops and turned into their “unsinkable aircraft carrier.” In a short period of time, 17 large airfields were created on the island, and aviation was relocated to them, which played an important role in subsequent operations in Italy and France.


Soldiers and sailors of "Fighting France" on board the ship before landing in Ajaccio on the island of Corsica. Operation Vesuvius.

Results


The Anglo-American troops, despite complete superiority at sea and significant superiority in aviation and manpower, were unable to immediately occupy most of Italy. By the end of September 1943, the Allies occupied about a quarter of Italy. The hopes that the Germans, forced to fight on two fronts - against the Anglo-Americans and Italians, would leave most of the peninsula themselves, did not materialize. The large Italian army disintegrated, laid down its arms and went home almost instantly.

On September 29, on the island of Malta, the head of the Italian government, Badoglio, signed a truce, which expanded the rights of the United States and England in Italy. On October 13, Badoglio's government declared war on Germany. But all power in the liberated part of Italy belonged to the Anglo-Americans.

The offensive of the Anglo-American army in Italy and large-scale bombing of Germany in 1943 did not lead to decisive results. The German heavy military industry and production as a whole did not suffer heavy damage from the bombing. Mostly peaceful city areas were affected.

The German command quite successfully evacuated troops from the south of the peninsula and Corsica, almost threw the allies back into the sea, and systematically created defense lines that the Anglo-Americans could not break through. The Allies moved north mainly only as the German divisions withdrew.

Churchill's assurances that the operation in Italy would divert large Wehrmacht forces, which would help the Russians, also did not materialize. The Germans sent a small force to Italy, mainly from France. In September 1943, there were only 17,5 German divisions in Italy. Subsequently, the Germans held Northern and Central Italy with 21 divisions and 370 aircraft.

In general, the strategy of the United States and England to prolong the war, with the aim of exhausting Germany and Russia, has been developed. The Allies landed in Europe, but moved slowly, strengthening their rear (supply, airfields, ports, etc.). The divisions received the necessary combat experience. It was decided to continue the fight in Italy with minimal forces, maintaining the appearance of a second front, concentrating efforts on preparing the landing in France.


Soldiers of the British Army's 10th Corps ride in a captured German Sd armored personnel carrier. Kfz. 250 on a pontoon crossing over the Volturno River in Italy. American soldiers follow the armored personnel carrier. At the beginning of the Italian campaign, the British 10th Corps was part of the US 5th Army. October 1943


British soldiers fire a 2-inch mortar at the site of a destroyed house in Grazzanise on the Volturno River. October 1943


British Army sappers work at a pontoon crossing on the banks of the Volturno in southern Italy. An M4 Sherman tank is being transported to the other side of the river. November-December 1943
40 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. -2
    20 September 2023 07: 28
    Here is the news!
    The Allies EVERYWHERE advanced only after the retreating German troops. As soon as the Germans even looked back, I’m not afraid of this word, the Allied armadas froze, as if rooted to the spot.
    1. +9
      20 September 2023 08: 28
      Quote: Grossvater
      Here is the news!
      The Allies EVERYWHERE advanced only after the retreating German troops. As soon as the Germans even looked back, I’m not afraid of this word, the Allied armadas froze, as if rooted to the spot.

      And the German troops retreated naturally, solely because of Hitler’s love of peace, right? And not from the threat of withdrawals, massive air and naval strikes, and so on? wassat
      1. +5
        20 September 2023 08: 39
        Quote: BlackMokona
        And the German troops retreated naturally, solely because of Hitler’s love of peace, right?

        Well, you know everything...
        Then tell the “dense public” how many German formations were on the Western and how many on the Eastern Front... And also tell us why the Germans surrendered and surrendered territories to the “allies”... Is this some kind of military trick or was this the plan? It was not for nothing that Nazi criminals found refuge in Canada and Argentina - it was the Soviet troops who issued them travel allowances there...
        1. -6
          20 September 2023 09: 58
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Well, you know everything...
          Then tell the “dense public” how many German formations were on the Western and how many on the Eastern Front... And also tell us why the Germans surrendered and surrendered territories to the “allies”... Is this some kind of military trick or was this the plan? It was not for nothing that Nazi criminals found refuge in Canada and Argentina - it was the Soviet troops who issued them travel allowances there...

          1. Because on the eastern front there were many millions more soldiers than their enemies. So they distributed their resources accordingly.
          2. Because the Germans who were captured were sent to the Gulag, to Siberia to work and they worked there until the age of 50. And those who surrendered to the Allies were released immediately after the war to go home. and the conditions of captivity among the Allies were orders of magnitude better than the conditions in Soviet captivity. A simple rational decision is purely selfish and there are no conspiracies. Therefore, it is necessary to keep enemies in excellent conditions in captivity so that they surrender more willingly.
          1. +8
            20 September 2023 14: 23
            “You need to keep your enemies in excellent conditions as prisoners.” After Stalingrad? Seriously?
          2. +12
            20 September 2023 15: 31
            They sent everyone, everyone, to Siberia, to the Gulag. And there the “poor Germans” were directly tyrannized... In St. Petersburg we have many houses built by captured Germans. As far as I know, a lot was rebuilt in Moscow, Novosibirsk, Chelyabinsk, Minsk...they were building somewhere else. Of course, with the regime and under guard (prisoners), and the food was so-so (not at the resort, however, but they would have fed their own). Somewhere they died. But they didn’t starve us like in concentration camps, they didn’t poison us in gas chambers, they didn’t burn us alive.... So they came to us. They bombed, burned, killed (and civilians too. Will you argue?). They were prisoners, not civilians (and the conditions, I think, were the same as later in the “chemistry” in Soviet times). And as for the conditions of the Anglo-Americans, they said nonsense. There seemed to be no more people who died in the camps (unless, of course, you are a high-ranking officer or are not interesting to intelligence/industry) Google it. You will find a lot of interesting things... Only the amers themselves do not admit this. Naturally. They are “a stronghold of democracy and Guianism)))
            1. -2
              20 September 2023 16: 42
              Quote: Doc1272
              They sent everyone, everyone, to Siberia, to the Gulag. And there the “poor Germans” were directly tyrannized... In St. Petersburg we have many houses built by captured Germans. As far as I know, a lot was rebuilt in Moscow, Novosibirsk, Chelyabinsk, Minsk...they were building somewhere else. Of course, with the regime and under guard (prisoners), and the food was so-so (not at the resort, however, but they would have fed their own). Somewhere they died. But they didn’t starve us like in concentration camps, they didn’t poison us in gas chambers, they didn’t burn us alive.... So they came to us. They bombed, burned, killed (and civilians too. Will you argue?). They were prisoners, not civilians (and the conditions, I think, were the same as later in the “chemistry” in Soviet times). And as for the conditions of the Anglo-Americans, they said nonsense. There seemed to be no more people who died in the camps (unless, of course, you are a high-ranking officer or are not interesting to intelligence/industry) Google it. You will find a lot of interesting things... Only the amers themselves do not admit this. Naturally. They are “a stronghold of democracy and Guianism)))

              I don't even need to argue with you. All the same, it was much sweeter for the Germans in the west. They didn’t rebuild anything there in other countries, they went straight home.
              1. +2
                22 September 2023 00: 36
                Quote: BlackMokona
                They didn’t rebuild anything there in other countries, they went straight home.

                In Denmark, for example, German prisoners removed all the millions of mines they had laid. Minefields were installed on the coast and the waves carried away either the soil above the mines or the mines themselves. Many Germans were blown up while clearing mines. In Europe, unexploded ordnance was cleared.
          3. +1
            20 September 2023 16: 53
            Quote: BlackMokona
            Because on the eastern front there were many millions more soldiers than their enemies.

            Stop fussing! Yours?
            Quote: BlackMokona
            And the German troops naturally retreated solely from Hitler’s love of peace, right? And not from the threat of encirclement, massive air strikes, naval strikes, etc.?

            So, take the trouble to strain your brains and answer (for yourself - I don’t need to) why the Germans so quickly occupied Europe at the beginning of the war and surrendered its entire western part with virtually no destruction (France, Italy, Belgium and other Holland), and on the Eastern Front everything the countries of Europe were in ruins?
            Can you name the great battles in Western Europe? Outline the victories of the “grand French army” and the British expeditionary force...
            Are you aware that offensive/defensive manpower losses are approximately 3/1? So what losses did the Allied forces and the Germans defending against them suffer?
            * * *
            WWII had not yet ended, and the Allies began to hatch plans to use Hitler’s military leaders and specialists. How many former Nazis joined the German army?
            * * *
            A tambourine differs from a person in that it rings incessantly, just hit it - don’t be lazy. A person needs to think before putting words together into sentences...
            1. +6
              20 September 2023 20: 13
              Quote: ROSS 42
              why did the Germans occupy Europe so quickly

              They knew how to fight well.
              Quote: ROSS 42
              they handed over its entire western part with virtually no damage

              The allies also learned to fight well. By the way, the allies left no stone unturned in many places, so you lied about “no destruction.”
              Quote: ROSS 42
              Can you name the great battles in Western Europe? Outline the victories of the “grand French army” and the British expeditionary force...

              Are you boasting about your illiteracy? The 40 campaign was generally unsuccessful for France and Britain. The victories came later.
              Quote: ROSS 42
              Are you aware that offensive/defensive manpower losses are approximately 3/1? So what losses did the Allied forces and the Germans defending against them suffer?

              Approximately 1/1 in killed, EMNIP. Taking into account the prisoners, the Allies have been doing better since they started pouring into cauldrons. For my part, with all my ardent dislike for the Allied Command, I have to admit that they did not enter a serious cauldron even once. I don’t consider Bastogne a cauldron.
              Quote: ROSS 42
              WWII had not yet ended, and the Allies began to hatch plans to use Hitler’s military leaders and specialists

              Yes, specialists, it would be strange if not. Unfortunately, there are no military leaders; American arrogance did not allow this to be done. Only after becoming president did Eisenhower come to the idea that it was necessary to call Halder to America and somehow sort out this mess.

              Quote: ROSS 42
              How many former Nazis joined the German army?

              Everything, of course. Another thing is that the Bundeswehr appeared only 10 years later.
          4. +4
            20 September 2023 17: 57
            Quote: BlackMokona
            because the Germans who were captured were sent to the Gulag, to Siberia to work, and they worked there even before the 50s. And those who surrendered to the Allies were released immediately after the war to go home. and the conditions of captivity among the Allies were orders of magnitude better than the conditions in Soviet captivity

            :))) tell this to tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of German soldiers who died of starvation in American captivity
            1. +3
              20 September 2023 19: 57
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of German soldiers who died of starvation in American captivity

              It must have been very sad to die of starvation in American captivity. Especially if we are talking about the heroes of the alt-history genre.

              I'll add it if you allow. Adenauer pulled the last Hartamanns out of the Gulag in the mid-50s. And all sorts of Einsteins and vonbrauns there were just beginning to work in Eisenhower’s sharashkas. The latter even designed a rocket in the 60s to fly from the damned Americans to the Moon to his beloved Fuhrer - all the FBI from there removed him from the top.
              1. +2
                20 September 2023 22: 24
                And all sorts of Einsteins there
                He was a Jew and ended up in the United States before the outbreak of WWII.
              2. +4
                21 September 2023 08: 19
                Quote: Negro
                It must have been very sad to die of starvation in American captivity. Especially if we are talking about the heroes of the alt-history genre.

                Oh, so you’re not aware of this little misunderstanding? :))))
                Well, yes, yes, and the Canadian D. Buck wrote exclusively in the fantasy genre, and Albert Cowdrey, who actually counted not 800-1000 thousand, but “only” 56 who died of hunger, also counted the German Red Cross, who missed 285- 1,3 million prisoners are also an alternative, and all sorts of James Masons and Charles Beasleys, as well as Joseph Julien - they are all science fiction writers :)
                Quote: Negro
                I'll add it if you allow. Adenauer pulled the last Hartamanns out of the Gulag in the mid-50s.

                But when he asked representatives of the US State Department where the 1,5 million prisoners had gone, he received the answer: “They did not return home.” The difference seems noticeable.
                1. -3
                  21 September 2023 10: 03
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Oh, so you are not aware of this little misunderstanding?:

                  Of course I know. You try to talk about it almost every time we talk about post-war Germany.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Well, yes, yes, and the Canadian D. Buck wrote exclusively in the fantasy genre

                  Yeah. I'm just talking about him. This is the same bullshit as some Mukhin. I almost said “Samsonov,” but Samsonov writes in a different genre. More precisely in several genres.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  who actually counted not 800-1000 thousand, but “only” 56 who died of hunger

                  Really. They lied about 20 times in total.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  The US State Department, where 1,5 million prisoners had gone, received the answer: “They did not return home.” The difference seems noticeable.

                  Naturally. During Adenauer’s time, the US State Department was not interested in the issues of “prisoners”, unless we were talking about the Korean War. The war is over - the prisoners are over.

                  If, of course, there was such a conversation at all. You, dear friend, also used to prefer artistic truth to factual truth, so to speak.
                  1. +3
                    21 September 2023 11: 02
                    Quote: Negro
                    Yeah. I'm just talking about him. This is the same bullshit as some Mukhin.

                    What about the rest?
                    Quote: Negro
                    Really. They lied about 20 times in total.

                    Are you sure that this is an accurate count? :))) And, if so, it is only 5,6 times higher than the official American data, at least, because officially, 10 Americans died in captivity from all causes. And here there are 000 thousand from starvation alone. By the way, how many Germans died of starvation in the Gulag, please remind us? Only without the Stalingrad ones, please, there they were already captured as dystrophics.
                    Quote: Negro
                    You, dear friend, also used to prefer artistic truth to factual truth, so to speak.

                    Listen, well, whose cow is mooing? Of course, I also make mistakes, who can argue, but your posts mainly consist of them.
                    1. -1
                      21 September 2023 11: 53
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      what about the rest?

                      Who are the others? Adenauer in your retelling?
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Are you sure this is an accurate count?

                      Of course not. Let the Germans themselves do the counting of the dead Germans. Everyone who wants to tear off the veil should first discuss this with the official version, so to speak. The current official version is Overmans. It is also an estimate of losses from above (unlike Krivosheev, who estimates losses from below in terms of the military).
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      By the way, how many Germans died of starvation in the Gulag, please remind me?

                      Every seventh according to Soviet data.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      but your posts mainly consist of them.

                      My posts mainly consist of journalistically pointed, radicalized statements. I admit revisionist evaluation, but I never pass them off as data.
                      1. +1
                        21 September 2023 12: 40
                        Quote: Negro
                        Who are the others? Adenauer in your retelling?

                        Have you forgotten how to read simple texts?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Albert Cowdrey, who actually counted not 800-1000 thousand, but “only” 56 who died of starvation, who also counted the German Red Cross, who missed 285-1,3 million prisoners - is also an alternativeist, and all sorts of James Masons and Charles Beasleys, as well as Joseph Julien - they are all science fiction writers :)

                        Quote: Negro
                        Of course not. Let the Germans themselves do the counting of the dead Germans.

                        Well, they were missing one and a half million prisoners.
                        Quote: Negro
                        Every seventh according to Soviet data.

                        You lie, as usual. I asked you
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        By the way, how many Germans died from hunger in the Gulag, please remind me? Only without the Stalingrad ones, please, there they were already captured as dystrophics.

                        You are giving me the total mortality rate, not only from hunger, but from all causes in general, including the Germans captured at Stalingrad. And even then - slightly overpriced.
                        Quote: Negro
                        I allow revisionist assessments, but I never present them as facts.

                        Just released
                      2. -2
                        21 September 2023 13: 38
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Just released

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You are giving me the total mortality rate, not only from hunger,

                        What a question, such an answer. I am not the chief pathologist of the Soviet Union to separate the dead German military personnel by cause of death. Moreover, I suspect that in the Soviet Union no one was interested in the causes of death of military personnel; accordingly, such data does not exist at all.

                        Separately smiled.
                        And then - slightly overpriced

                        This is said by a man whose Americans killed almost everyone who surrendered to them.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well, they were missing one and a half million prisoners.

                        Who is “they”? Are you with Adenauer?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Albert Cowdrey, who actually counted not 800-1000 thousand but “only” 56 deaths

                        What comments can there be? A certain author, the so-called American Rostislavdd, writes that out of approximately 7 million dead Germans, 50 thousand were genocided by Eisenhower. Since I have a complaint against Eisenhower not for 50 thousand, but for all 18 million Germans of the GDR, plus Eric Hartmann personally, the question of these 50 thousand simply does not interest me. You can throw them wherever you want.

                        Well, your 1,5 million Red Cross is simply taken out of context. We see the same thing not 80 years ago, but right now from the “confessions” of the most unexpected people of the “real” losses of the Nazis in one small victorious one.
                      3. +1
                        21 September 2023 15: 05
                        Quote: Negro
                        What a question, that’s the answer.

                        And again - you lie. The question was quite specific, if you cannot answer it because you
                        Quote: Negro
                        not the chief pathologist of the Soviet Union to separate dead German military personnel by cause of death

                        and you just don’t know this, then say so - it will be honest. And to answer that every seventh German prisoner of war in the USSR died of hunger is a deliberate lie.
                        Quote: Negro
                        This is said by a man whose Americans killed almost everyone who surrendered to them.

                        That is, you are not familiar with the numbers at all. How many Germans managed to escape into “civilized” captivity is truly unknown. But according to the Military Police of the Allied Expeditionary Forces, at the end of May 1945 there were 1 German prisoners of war and 890 “disarmed enemies” in captivity. However, the American command reported the capture of 000 German troops and the disarmament of another million soldiers and officers.
                        Actually, directly in the USA, where the Germans were not starved to death, there were more than 400 thousand German prisoners of war.
                        Quote: Negro
                        Well, your 1,5 million Red Cross is simply taken out of context.

                        No question, put them back in context :)))
                      4. -2
                        21 September 2023 19: 23
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        No question, put them back in context :)))

                        For what? These are your numbers and your problems.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But according to the Military Police of the Allied Expeditionary Forces, at the end of May 1945 there were 1 German prisoners of war and 890 “disarmed enemies” in captivity. However, the American command reported the capture of 000 German troops and the disarmament of another million soldiers and officers.

                        As I already said, counting the Germans is the business of the Germans themselves, and no one else. If all 4 million captured Germans, as you stated here, were captured by the Americans, then the communists would simply have no one to keep in their beloved Gulag. This state of affairs seems counterintuitive to me.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And again - you lie. The question was quite specific, if you cannot answer it because you

                        What a question, such an answer. You cited the fantasies of another “researcher” - which, I note, differ tens of times from the figures of another “researcher”, your favorite one - and for some reason you expect me to support this strange conversation. I have German mortality figures in captivity - that’s enough for me.

                        I'll say more. The USSR did not sign any conventions, so it did not owe anything to the prisoners. It was rather imprudent on the part of the German command not to take this aspect of the matter into account. But the USA and the British signed, so yes, there are damn big questions for them. But not for those virtual 50 thousand blind people (this is close to the total mortality in captivity in the West, I’m not interested in how your Cowdry recorded them all as starvation deaths), but for completely different people.
                      5. 0
                        22 September 2023 11: 32
                        Quote: Negro
                        As I already said, counting the Germans is the business of the Germans themselves, and no one else. If all 4 million captured Germans, as you stated here, were captured by the Americans, then the communists would simply have no one to keep in their beloved Gulag.

                        Because you again failed to provide numbers and do not know the number of captured Germans
                        The rest - well, if anyone reads our correspondence, everything is already clear to him, I think
                      6. -1
                        22 September 2023 12: 04
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The rest - well, if anyone reads our correspondence, everything is already clear to him, I think

                        )))
                        Just like with you. Throw a few numbers into the conversation that differ from each other by an order of magnitude (and which are mostly pure propaganda): if I didn’t know that you were an amateur, I would consider you a professional. I mean a bot.
              3. -2
                21 September 2023 22: 10
                Quote: Negro
                Adenauer pulled the last Hartamanns out of the Gulag in the mid-50s.

                There was no gulag in the mid-50s. And the Hartmanns had to be sent not there, but to their own gas chambers. Then there were much fewer of their last ones.
                1. 0
                  22 September 2023 08: 17
                  Quote: albert
                  There was no gulag by the mid-50s

                  In 59 it was renamed.
                  Quote: albert
                  But the Hartmanns had to be sent not there, but to their own gas chambers. Then their last ones were usually much smaller.

                  Did you mean to say “so that we fight better next time”? Are you by any chance Leo Tolstoy? He had thoughts in this direction...
          5. 0
            29 September 2023 10: 19
            What kind of “Gulag” were German prisoners of war held in? For the bastards there was another structure - GUPVi. It was not possible to keep the bastards in better conditions. The country, thanks to their efforts, lay in ruins. Based on your considerations, the Nazis willingly gave up their positions and surrendered to the allies themselves, but they often fought the Red Army to the end. Why did it happen? Apparently the brutes knew what they were doing on the territory of the USSR and seriously believed that something would be cut off for them in captivity. Another thing is that the German brutes measured everyone by themselves. In the Red Army, they did not commit savagery against prisoners, unlike civilized Europeans - the descendants of Kant, Hegel and Nietzsche.
          6. 0
            28 November 2023 19: 55
            It’s just that the Germans didn’t occupy either the USA or England, so they bombed a few Britons and that’s all. And they didn’t have time to “distinguish themselves” there with their civilian population. But here the Germans were completely trampled and afraid of well-deserved retribution.
            I can imagine what good Americans would have done to the Germans if they had experienced the horrors of the German occupation.
    2. +2
      20 September 2023 19: 48
      Quote: Grossvater
      As soon as the Germans even looked back, I’m not afraid of this word, the Allied armadas froze, as if rooted to the spot.

      Well, at least they didn’t flee like some other army in 41-42.
      1. -1
        21 September 2023 09: 37
        Remind me of Dunkirk? That's where the Britons really have one rifle left to platoon.
        1. -1
          21 September 2023 09: 54
          Quote: Dmitriy Zadorozhniy
          Remind me of Dunkirk?

          Well, you see. And the British retreated from time to time.
      2. 0
        21 September 2023 14: 45
        You should go galloping somewhere else!
  2. 0
    20 September 2023 08: 51
    Mostly peaceful city areas were affected.
    So who would bomb their own property or someone else’s private property?
    1. +1
      20 September 2023 09: 59
      Quote: kor1vet1974
      Mostly peaceful city areas were affected.
      So who would bomb their own property or someone else’s private property?

      Are houses no longer private property?
      1. Alf
        -1
        20 September 2023 19: 18
        Quote: BlackMokona
        Quote: kor1vet1974
        Mostly peaceful city areas were affected.
        So who would bomb their own property or someone else’s private property?

        Are houses no longer private property?

        Well, it's not American. Unlike Ford factories in the Reich.
        1. +1
          21 September 2023 08: 23
          Quote: Alf
          Well, it's not American. Unlike Ford factories in the Reich.

          They were nationalized. Therefore, not Ford ones. Everything is insured, everything has been paid for a long time ago.
    2. 0
      20 September 2023 22: 54
      The dill and banderlogs began to stir, as well as our fifth column...
  3. +1
    20 September 2023 13: 47
    Attempts to break through the German defenses were unsuccessful. The Allied command was not going to tear the veins by storming the German positions. The front has stabilized.

    somewhere in the current war something similar is happening sad
  4. -1
    21 September 2023 22: 36
    If I’m not mistaken, Stalin returned ordinary German prisoners of war almost immediately after the end of the war; those who were convicted of war crimes remained in Siberia. It was them, along with a complete amnesty for the Banderaites, that Nikita, proud of his 3rd grade education, returned to Germany after the death of the leader.
  5. 0
    22 September 2023 14: 20
    Quote: BlackMokona
    Quote: ROSS 42
    Well, you know everything...
    Then tell the “dense public” how many German formations were on the Western and how many on the Eastern Front... And also tell us why the Germans surrendered and surrendered territories to the “allies”... Is this some kind of military trick or was this the plan? It was not for nothing that Nazi criminals found refuge in Canada and Argentina - it was the Soviet troops who issued them travel allowances there...

    1. Because on the eastern front there were many millions more soldiers than their enemies. So they distributed their resources accordingly.
    2. Because the Germans who were captured were sent to the Gulag, to Siberia to work and they worked there until the age of 50. And those who surrendered to the Allies were released immediately after the war to go home. and the conditions of captivity among the Allies were orders of magnitude better than the conditions in Soviet captivity. A simple rational decision is purely selfish and there are no conspiracies. Therefore, it is necessary to keep enemies in excellent conditions in captivity so that they surrender more willingly.

    Yes, Germans were kept in captivity much better than children in orphanages. And this is in a country at war with them.
  6. -1
    22 September 2023 23: 38
    Italy is very similar to Korea. The same mountainous, narrow peninsula stretched from north to south. With a sufficient density of troops on both sides, it is possible to fight there for years. Plus, the Allies made a mistake: due to political considerations, they withdrew the French-African forces from Italy (which were almost their only specialized mountain troops and brought enormous benefits at Monte Cassino). However, in any case, the Italian front was very useful - the Allies could disperse their forces almost painlessly, but the same cannot be said about the Germans.