Is everything calm in Kazan?

244
Tatarstan again marked the rally with black banners, and the new leader of the local Wahhabis promised to kill Russian President Vladimir Putin. In addition, Kazan announced the need to erect a monument to Khan Ulu-Mohammed Khan (Ulug Mohammed), the founder of the Kazan Khanate, who made a number of devastating campaigns on the Russian lands.

One of the developer (from English develop - develop, develop, create, improve) Kazan companies with the organizational assistance of the Office of Architecture and Urban Planning of the city executive committee announced an open competition for the development of a sketch, the idea of ​​a central architectural composition that will decorate Privokzalnaya Square in the Tatar capital. Among the projects already proposed for the competition there is a monument to Khan Ulu Mohammed, who distinguished himself by a series of victories over Vasily II Vasilyevich and his governors, devastating raids on Russian lands.

It should be noted that the idea to establish monuments on the squares of Kazan to prominent personalities of the period of the Mongolian Empire and the Kazan Khanate was repeatedly raised by Tatar national separatists. Typically, these requirements were consonant with the political situation in the Russian Federation. Under President Boris Yeltsin, under which Moscow was ready to “give sovereignty how much to swallow,” it was often proposed to erect monuments of Genghis Khan and Batu in Kazan. After strengthening the system of power in Russia, the Tatar nationalists became more modest, bringing to the first place not so large-scale figures. However, the essence of the requirements remained unchanged, Kazan should be symbolized by those who "defeated the Russians."

Now, if the idea of ​​establishing a monument to Ulu-Mohammed will be implemented, guests from Ryazan, Murom, Nizhny Novgorod, Suzdal and Moscow right at the station will understand where they came from and how they are treated here. In the center of the station square, there will be an image of the fact that, at the time of commerce, Tatar hordes robbed, burned Russian cities and villages, taking thousands of people for sale into slavery. It must be remembered that the Russian state and the Russian army had to wage a hard and bloody struggle for more than a century in order to “pacify” the Volga state. Many tens of thousands of people, both warriors and civilians, died in it, tens of thousands of Russians were driven into slavery and sold as cattle. The current separatists, with the full support of Western and Eastern sponsors, again want to plunge the peoples of Russian civilization into turmoil, internecine war.



Historical reference. Ulu-Muhammed (1405 - 1445) and his war with Moscow. Khan Mohammed was the grandson of the famous Tokhtamysh and the son of the Saray tsar Dzelal-udddin. During the internecine wars and the process of the collapse of the “Juchi ulus”, Ulu-Mohammed occupied the Saray throne several times (1419 - 1423, 1426 - 1427, 1428 - 1432). However, in the end he was defeated in the struggle for power in the Horde and was forced to retire to the Crimea, and then to the redistribution of Russian land, where he captured the border town of Belev. In 1437, the horde of Ulu-Mohammed, settling on the Upper Oka River, carried out predatory raids on neighboring Russian lands. The Moscow government demanded the removal of the horde of Mohammed beyond the borders of the Russian lands. An army led by Dmitry Yuryevich Shemyaka and Dmitry Yuryevich Krasny was sent against Ulu-Mohammed. However, 5 December 1437, in the battle of Belev, the Russian army was defeated, "and kill Russia a lot of Velmi ... rebuild the Russian, then kill the boyars and the princes many."

Ulu-Mohammed, having the experience of alienation of the independent Crimean Khanate from the Golden Horde, wanting to find his own “Ulus”, decided to seize another part of the Sarai Khanate and settle there as an independent “king”. He decided to restore an independent state in the Middle Volga region, the Bulgarian kingdom (Volga Bulgaria). Leaving Belev, Ulu Mohammed made a speech in the land of Mordovia and passing by the Russian border, reached Bulgaria. The capital of the region, the city of the Great Bulgar, after the pogrom of 1361 of the year and the campaign of Starodubsky prince Fyodor Pёstroi in 1431, was in ruins. The population mostly moved to the north, beyond Kama to safer and deaf places, began to concentrate around the new center - Kazan. Therefore, Khan Ulu Mohammed chose Kazan not the capital of his state, but Kazan, and the new state entity was named the Kazan Khanate. Kazan by this time was already a large city and inherited from Bulgar its political and economic importance. Russian chronicles report that Kazan was taken by Muhammad by force, after the murder of Prince Ali of the local (according to the Voskresenskaya chronicle), or Gaza (Nikon's chronicle).

Having established himself in the Middle Volga region, Ulu Mohammed decided to establish domination over the Moscow state so that it would pay tribute not to Sarai khan Kichi Mohammed, but to him. To this end, he organized a trip to Moscow. In the summer of 1439, the Tatar army moved to Moscow. The Grand Duke of Moscow, Vasily Vasilyevich, not ready to repel the attack, fled the city, leaving the governor Yury Patrikeevich to defend Moscow. “Mahmut-Tsar” (as Ulu-Mohammed was called in Russian chronicles) “with many forces unknown” approached Moscow, but could not take the capital city even after a ten-day siege, retreated. But "he did much evil for the Russian land," "many captures, and for some others." On the way back, the Tatars burned Kolomna. В 1444-1445 гг. Mohammed undertook a second march on Moscow. In the autumn of 1444, the Kazan army captured Nizhny Novgorod. Part of the Kazan army was sent to Murom, but was defeated by Russian regiments. Tatars moved away from Nizhny Novgorod. In 1444, the same Tatar detachment of “Prince” Mustafa seized Ryazan with a sudden blow. The Grand Duke had to send an army to the rescue under the command of the governor Vasily Obolensky and Andrey Goltyaev. After a fierce battle, the Tatars were defeated, Mustafa was killed. The remnants of the Horde fled. In the spring of 1445, the Tatar army delivered a new blow. The sons of Khan Makhmud and Yakub again invaded the Nizhny Novgorod lands. Posad of Nizhny Novgorod was destroyed, the Kremlin, where voivods Fyodor Dolgolyadov and Yushka Dranitsa were settled, was besieged. While the grand duke was collecting troops, in late June, the Nizhny Novgorod Kremlin fell. According to the arriving governor, “they ran out of the city at night, having lit it, because they could not endure hunger any longer: what was the grain supply, they all overnawed”. Learning about the fall of Nizhny Novgorod, the Grand Duke went on a campaign, not having time to gather all the forces. 7 July 1445, near Suzdal, on the banks of the Nerl River, a battle took place in which Russian troops were defeated. The Grand Duke Vasily the Dark himself, along with his cousin Prince Mikhail Vereisky, were taken prisoner. The Grand Duke was taken to Nizhny Novgorod, where he again met with Ulu Mohammed (they had previously met in Sarai, when Muhammad was the ruler of the Golden Horde). At this time, Moscow was preparing for a siege, but the Kazan troops only reached Vladimir, then turned back. The terms of the agreement between Vasily and Mohammed are unknown. It is only known that the Moscow prince was freed, agreeing to give a huge ransom, according to some information - “how much he can”, on the other - “from gold and silver, and from the portista of everyone, and from horses, and from the armor of half-30 thousand” on the third - 200 thousand. rubles. Basil the Dark was accompanied by a Kazan detachment, Kazan officials were appointed to Russian cities to collect the ransom. In ensuring the payment of tribute, Kazan received revenues from some Russian cities, volosts in the form of feedings. In general, Mohammed realized his plan, albeit briefly. Mohammed did not celebrate for long, in the same year 1445 he died, apparently, was killed by his sons.

“Is everything calm in Baghdad?”

A new motor rally with black flags was held in Tatarstan. At the same time, almost simultaneously, the President of Tatarstan Rustam Minnikhanov said that the republic would not allow rampant Wahhabism. 22 December R. Minnikhanov at a meeting with journalists in Kazan, in response to the question of how strong the influence of Wahhabism in the republic, said that to say that Tataria and Bashkiria rampant Wahhabism is impossible. Law enforcement agencies are doing a great job, have a full base on those who preach Islam. According to him, a merciless struggle will be waged with the bandits who “cling to Islam”. Tatar President believes that the processes are not so dangerous. Figuratively speaking, the danger of perishing from falling ice is higher than that of a Wahhabi attack, he noted.

However, the words of the leader of Tatarstan do not coincide with the reality and the new action of supporters of radical Islam, is proof of that. Obviously, if the authorities are in complete control of the situation on the ground, this convoy should have been slowed down by law enforcement agencies, reinforced by riot police. Conduct appropriate outreach and preventive work, showing who is the "owner". All participants of the action get into the relevant databases, etc. In the absence of reaction from the local law enforcement forces, the federal center should respond. With the “cleansing” of the authorities and security of all those who do not do their work (without the right of return).

In reality, we are probably the same stage that we observed in Syria, this is the same technology - this is the stage of demonstration of power. The next stage is demonstration force actions, a clash with law enforcement agencies, the first blood. The first actions have already taken place - an attack on July 19 in Kazan, when an attempt on the life of two spiritual leaders was committed. The next stage is a sharp aggravation of the situation. Radical groups are saturated with finances, weapons, there is a sharp rise in their numbers due to the “zombie” ideas of Islam and the “nation state” of young people, criminal elements, and marginal groups of the population. Next, we remember Chechnya 1990-s and modern Libya and Syria.

Not to notice such processes for the state power is mortally dangerous, and promises to ordinary people a lot of disasters, such as genocide and mass exodus of ethnic Russians (Rus) and Russian Tatars. At present, the central and local authorities have all the opportunities to “freeze” the members of the radical structures and their sympathizing element (the militant intelligentsia who help or close down officials on these processes) to freeze all these destructive processes. Why freeze? For their complete elimination, Russia needs a real Ideology, Aim and Program, which will unite the Rus and Russian peoples (who have adopted the Russian language, Russian culture, and have a common destiny with the Rus). At present, the forefront is the brutal elimination of the rebellion germ, which can lead to a lot of blood. You can not reassure yourself that the Tatars are a peaceful people who have become Russian for several centuries, sharing with the Russians all the burden of creating a great power. Or the fact that traditional, Hanafi Islam is a religion of peace. Obviously, the majority of citizens of Libya, Syria, or Chechnya 1990 would prefer to live in peace, but it turned out the opposite. A radical, tough and energetic minority, with the presence of Eastern (Arab, Turkish) and Western sponsors, patrons who sympathize with the “common cause” of local officials, if not opposed, will be able to “shake” the region within a rather short period of time. The first to fight will be small ethnic separatists, Muslim radicals, mercenaries from the outside. The majority, which is “out of politics”, will be connected after the first significant blood.

Silent danger, reporting that ongoing processes are not so dangerous, very dangerous. Especially in the conditions when in the USSR and Russia the process of cultivating the national intelligentsia that hates the "Russian (Soviet) occupiers", supporting ethnocratic "elites" dreaming of "independence" has been stealthily going on for decades. We can get explosive growth of danger when the problem comes out of a hidden state. As the events of the “Arab unrest” have shown, this period is very short, six months to a year. In Russia, it can be a little longer - one and a half to two years. Problems with the state of education in Russia, a problem with the state of the Russian language in Tatarstan. An imbalance has been firmly established in the republic in the field of personnel and cultural policy, in the field of public education, which does not correspond to the number, place and role of the Russian people in modern society and in the history of Tatarstan. In particular, more than 80% of leading posts are held by Tatars. The absence in Russia of all ideologies uniting all, led to the fact that part of the Tatar youth has already become isolated. There is a division into "friend or foe" at the household, language level. The Russians were squeezed out of the managerial corps.

Tatarstan President Rustam Minnikhanov himself admitted in an interview with 22 December that during the “new Russia”, when there was no common ideology, “quite a lot of our young people were trained in Arab countries”, “many migrants arrived”, “different people ", Salafists alien to the local religious tradition have appeared, who" believe that the infidels must be killed. " All these fault lines are not so dangerous in a stable period, but they sharply manifest themselves in times of crisis and instability. The world is in a fever of a systemic crisis, and Russia is by no means a “stable island” in a stormy ocean. The same Minnikhanov correctly noted that for a very long time “many authorities were not watched by neither the authorities nor the law enforcement agencies”.



Islamists of Tatarstan promised to kill Vladimir Putin

Another fact that refutes the line of the Kazan authorities - “everything is calm in Kazan” is the appeal of the latter-day “Amir of Tatarstan” Abdullah posted on the Internet. He replaced the “supreme” in this gang after the dead Mohammed (Raisa Mingaleev) and Abu Musa (Robert Valeyev). "Amir" reported on the work done and shared with the audience with the plans of the gang.

According to Wahhabi, it is his group that is responsible for the murder in Moscow of two FSB officers, undermining the gas pipeline in the Moscow region and damaging the railway in the Kuban region, which led to train accidents with oil. Abdullah said that his group will continue attacks on infrastructure facilities - gas, oil pipelines, railways, power lines, petrochemical enterprises. Amir also said that the fighters would kill law enforcement, judicial and security officers. A separate point is the murder of the President of the Russian Federation: “we will soak him in the toilet, like Gaddafi in the sewer pipe ...”.

It is clear that this statement has little real power, especially in the implementation of a large-scale plan of war against the Russian state. Silenok is still not enough (only the first “swinging” stage is underway). But the fact of its appearance is alarming. The problem of the emergence of the Islamist armed underground in the Volga region, and in other regions of Russia, including Siberia, is already a sad reality. For too long, these destructive processes were overlooked or even supported. The illusions of a quiet "Soviet" life have to be discarded. The war is not only on the threshold, somewhere in the Caucasus or Central Asia, but also in the house itself. It is a fact of life that will not disappear by itself. A lot of work is needed to eradicate the virus of radical Islam and ethno-separatism in Russia. This is the only way to stop a lot of blood ...
244 comments
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  1. +76
    25 December 2012 08: 54
    No one will ever convince me that Muslims are peaceful people and Islam is the religion of the world. Islam was created to seize power, Islam developed to seize power, all movements of Islam are initially aggressive! Show me at least one example of the opposite! Always and everywhere, while this infection spread throughout the world, it brought only pain and blood!

    I was recently blamed for this koment. Oh well.
    1. Shuhrat turani
      +1
      25 December 2012 09: 11
      Quote: hohryakov066
      No one will ever convince me that Muslims are peaceful people and Islam is the religion of the world. Islam was created to seize power, Islam developed to seize power, all movements of Islam are initially aggressive


      America discovered, or what?
      It is also characteristic of Christianity, Judaism, Communism, nationalism, fascism, Maosism. Shintoism, liberalism. monarchism, anarchism and ananism.
      Man creates doctrines for the seizure of power and control over the masses ... This is irregular ...
      1. +10
        25 December 2012 10: 18
        Quote: Shuhrat Turani
        It is also characteristic of Christianity, Judaism, Communism, nationalism, fascism, Maosism. Shintoism, liberalism. monarchism, anarchism and ananism.
        - This is not characteristic of the main world religions.

        Quote: Shuhrat Turani
        Man creates doctrines for the seizure of power and control over the masses ... This is irregular ...
        - that’s exactly what people creates.
        1. +5
          25 December 2012 21: 36
          And in general, my opinion is that religion everywhere is just a screen in such cases. Many hid for her, regardless of name
        2. +1
          26 December 2012 01: 29
          Quote: Middle Brother
          - This is not characteristic of the main world religions.

          This is "not typical" for ALL spiritual traditions from which religions grow, but for the historical realizations of these religions it is quite even "typical". The human factor, s.
      2. +1
        25 December 2012 16: 17
        Quote: Shuhrat Turani
        America discovered, or what?
        It is also characteristic of Christianity, Judaism, Communism, nationalism, fascism, Maosism. Shintoism, liberalism. monarchism, anarchism and ananism.
        Man creates doctrines for the seizure of power and control over the masses ... This is irregular ...

        You are advised to start thinking with your own head, and not repeat old cliches voiced by stupidity by others. To repeat the anti-religious Soviet myth that Christianity was created to rule the people means to show complete ignorance of the history of the Church, especially the first three centuries. Take an interest in how they treated Christians: Nero, Troyan, Marcus Aurelius, Diocletian and other Roman emperors.
        "Christians to lions" is the principle of attitude towards Christians. At that time, being baptized meant one thing - to stand in line for terrible torture and execution.
        And you speak for the power. wassat
        1. akbarr
          +4
          25 December 2012 18: 20

          yes everything is right the middle brother said, you need to learn to think with your own head.
          1. 0
            26 December 2012 23: 35
            akbarr RU "... you need to learn to think with your own head." talking about kos
            -------------------------------------------------- ----------------------
            I completely agree! In addition, it is desirable not to confuse ORTHODOX with "Christianity" - these are different religions!
            1. 0
              1 January 2013 11: 14
              Quote: alexdol
              I completely agree! In addition, it is desirable not to confuse ORTHODOX with "Christianity" - these are different religions!

              and what is the difference?
      3. +4
        25 December 2012 20: 17
        Shuhrat turani,
        For Orthodoxy is not characteristic. And every creature began to stir from the dough pumped up by the Saudis to fulfill its plans. I think sane people will not follow their lead.
        1. +2
          26 December 2012 01: 43
          Quote: Sandov
          For Orthodoxy is not characteristic. AND

          Not typical, but everything happened in history. And we do too. Here is one example - the correspondence between two magi-kobas (fortune-telling by the flight of a bird), taken from the old Russian "Boyan's Hymn" (IV century AD). One of them is a priest of Old Ladoga, and the second sorcerer is from Novgorod. (translation into Russian):
          "Mr. light cob
          Christians go enemies to the city of Ladoga
          Pray, offer sacrifices, lest we
          enslaved and would not ruin the city
          I am sending the speech of Perun to my master.
          old cob
          I send my husband, waiting for the coveted term
          against false literacy
          The Russians were Kimry and lived before the Kimry.
          Were Enemies of Rome and You Stipichon
          Bolorev. The deer warrior was in our throes. was a barbarian, and by birth a Greek
          Otuarich. Then Izhodrik, then the lying Eric the warrior
          damned Aldorg
          sowed death, burned our god, killing the townspeople
          Forever I fight on the bones
          Suffering from Bus to Deer .... "

          The matter is not in spiritual teachings and traditions, but in how and for what PEOPLE they "introduce them into life."
          1. Che
            Che
            0
            26 December 2012 13: 15
            ikrut,
            Now you are talking about Orthodoxy, not Christianity. Did I understand you correctly?
    2. Svarog
      +14
      25 December 2012 09: 17
      Quote: hohryakov066
      No one will ever convince me that Muslims are peaceful people and Islam is the religion of the world. Islam was created to seize power, Islam developed to seize power, all movements of Islam are initially aggressive! Show me at least one example of the opposite! Always and everywhere, while this infection spread throughout the world, it brought only pain and blood!

      Religion itself does not call for anything like that. We must fight the spread of its extreme directions (there are such in Christianity). You can fight only in 1 way - modern education (fursenko and receivers are not offered). Well, read the history - not the Muslims were the first to attack, but the familiar "democratic" forces of the West.
      1. +8
        25 December 2012 10: 19
        Quote: Svarog
        Religion itself does not call for such a thing. It is necessary to fight with the spread of its extreme directions

        + 1, I fully support you
        1. vladsolo56
          +1
          25 December 2012 17: 18
          The question is who will fight, so I understand that you are a believer, and if someone calls for faith, they must drive the infidels, and the crowd will run to fulfill the call, you will stand in her way and try to stop, I don’t believe, but I don’t believe, rather just succumb to the general impulse, so here it is.
          1. +3
            26 December 2012 01: 48
            Quote: vladsolo56
            you are a believer, and if someone calls for faith, they must drive the infidels, and the crowd will run to fulfill the call,

            This may have happened more than once. But what does "Vera" have to do with it? Perhaps I will take up arms for the Russian or Christian world. But it will have nothing to do with the ideas of Jesus. Religion is just an excuse. No more. IMHO.
      2. His
        +4
        25 December 2012 11: 46
        Religion itself is the root of universal evil, they even cut their own and explode in their temples
        1. +7
          25 December 2012 13: 30
          Quote: Own
          Religion itself is the root of universal evil,

          Not religion, but pigs that hide behind religion.
      3. Footmansur86
        +29
        25 December 2012 11: 50
        You are mistaken, read about jihad in the karana and be terrified.
        And when the forbidden months are over, beat up the polytheists, where you find them, capture them, besiege them, ambush them in any hidden place ... "(Sura 9,5)

        "O prophet! Fight the infidels and hypocrites. Be cruel to them! Their refuge is hell, and this return is bad!" (sura 9,73)

        "And kill them where you meet, and drive them out from where they drove you out: after all, temptation is worse than murder!" (surah 2,191)

        "And when you meet those who disbelieve, then - a blow with the sword in the neck." (sura 47,4)

        "And fight with them until there is no more temptation, and all religion belongs to Allah" (Surah 2, 193)

        "Fight with those who do not believe in Allah ..." (Sura 9,29)

        It is estimated that the Qur'an contains over fifty calls for jihad (war and murder, not self-improvement). The entire planet is divided into two parts - the "land of peace", where Sharia norms are fulfilled, and the "land of war", where these norms are not fulfilled. The goal of Islam is to subjugate all the peoples of the world to their religion, and if necessary, then by fire and sword ...

        Find something similar in the bible ..............
        1. +17
          25 December 2012 12: 51
          Of course, I am maximally tolerant of all religions, but I have never met such aggressiveness as in the Koran, in any religion, and even more so in the Bible. One of the ten commandments of Christ says "Thou shalt not kill." That says it all. Everywhere murder is considered a terrible, unforgivable sin.
          And here ... this is beyond comprehension. Formally, from a legal point of view, in our country, and in the world in general, literature of a weaker content than the Koran is recognized as extremist. Of course, no one will take such a step in relation to the Koran, but one must be aware that there are more than 70 directions in Islam. And each representative of his direction believes that it is he who professes the right thing. Wahhabism is one of these 70 directions.
          The majority of Russian Muslims, God grant them health, profess the "peaceful" part of Islam and live side by side with the rest, and work together and eat at the same table. All others who are not satisfied with this way of life in our ONE state will have only one option ...
          1. +3
            26 December 2012 02: 04
            Quote: TUNISIA
            such aggression as in the Qur'an never met, in no religion, and even more so in the Bible

            And read carefully the Old Testament. Better yet, Shulhun Arun. You will find many interesting things.
            1. -1
              26 December 2012 18: 47
              Thanks for the tip, but the New Testament is enough for me.
              1. +2
                27 December 2012 00: 56
                Quote: TUNISIA
                the New Testament is enough for me.

                Christians fully honor the Old Testament.
                And you said "In the Bible". And there are many interesting things in the Bible. Well, for example:
                “And Moses stood at the gate of the camp, and said, Who is the Lord, come to me! And all the sons of Levi gathered to him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel: put every sword of yours on your thigh, go through the camp from gate to gate and back, and kill every brother, every friend of his, every neighbor of his. And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and that day about three thousand people fell out of the people ”(Exodus 32: 25-29).
                Well, in the New Testament, Jesus said about this (About the "Law"): "Do not think that I came to break the law or the prophets: I did not come to break the law, but to fulfill it" (Matthew 5-17).
                I do not advocate extremism in Islam at all. I just think that profaning (in other words, simplification, not knowledge) of a problem plays into the hands of those who benefit from this problem.
        2. +13
          25 December 2012 16: 40
          Footmansur86,
          I spent two years in disputes with Muslims and they answer one such quote: it was a time of war and similar words of Muhamed date back to the time of war. But the problem is that you can sign any for this time.
          The Meccan and Medina suras are especially strikingly different from each other, if in one world, then others are full of aggression. This is all explained by history, when Muhhamed realized that his teachings did not find support (in the course of several years only about 80 people joined him), he switched to power actions. By the way, robbery, torture, murder (marrying a 6 girl, though he began to sleep with her when she was 9 years old and he was 50 !!) - all this can be found in the biography of Muhammad. And for Muslims, he is an object of imitation.

          Here's an example:
          “And fight all with the polytheists, as they all fight with you. And know that Allah is with the God-fearing! ” (9:36)
          I can explain a little that by polytheists, pagans can be understood as Christians, because Muslims are not able to adequately understand the dogma of the Trinity of God and understand him stupidly as polytheism.

          "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are furious against the infidels, merciful to each other." (48:29)

          And here are the hadiths of jihat:

          The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: “I was ordered to fight people until they testify that there is no deity but Allah, and that Muhammad is His Messenger, until they pray and pay zakat, but if they do this, I will protect their life and property, as long as they live in accordance with Islam and honor Allah Almighty. ”

          The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: "I was ordered to fight people until they say:" There is no deity except Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger. " If they do this, they will protect from me their life and their property, which will be available only by law, and only Allah will require a report from them. ” (Bukhari, Muslim)

          I can still list a lot. And I assure you, in the Quran and Sunnah the so-called the prophet has a lot of places that modern terrorists can take as an excuse and a direct call to action.


          In general, I can talk about this a lot.
          PS I wonder if you know what death is supposed to be for getting out of Islam?
          True, in the beginning they give three days to think, and then ... But this is for a man. And for a woman, life imprisonment with periodic force exposure.
          1. Lech e-mine
            +1
            25 December 2012 16: 49
            very interesting, I would like to know more about such disputes
          2. +2
            27 December 2012 01: 23
            Quote: kos
            the problem is that under this time you can sign any.

            Your opponents were right. To understand this, you only need to read the listed suras as a whole. Or at least neighboring verses.
            Quote: kos
            Meccan and Medina suras are especially strikingly different from each other.

            You're right. A number of researchers believe that Mohammed consciously gave a more social aspect to his latest revelations.
            Quote: kos
            Muslims are not able to adequately understand the dogma of the Trinity of God and understand him stupidly as polytheism.

            I think not quite so. Muslims simply do not consider Jesus Christ to be God. The Jews do not have a trinity, but the Qur'an also criticizes them. It is only a matter of interpreting dogmas. The dogma of the Filioque divided the Catholics and the Orthodox. Who and what did not understand here?
            Quote: kos
            Do you know what death is supposed to leave Islam?

            Who installed it? Can I link to the Quran? I read in the Quran: "If God wanted, then everyone would believe" (10:99) and also "God does not change what happens to people, as long as people themselves do not change their thoughts."
            Quote: kos
            I can still list a lot.
            I also:))
            I am not a Muslim, but in my deep conviction the Great Spiritual Tradition cannot be reduced to banal extremism. to do so - to become like those dark and clogged people who commit crimes in the name of Islam.
            The Koran is such an "interesting" book, in which everyone can find what they need for themselves. If you want - hatred of your neighbor and aggression. And if you want - love for your neighbor and humility. It all depends on PEOPLE.
          3. Yarbay
            +1
            27 December 2012 18: 41
            Quote: kos
            I spent two years in disputes with Muslims

            After reading your entire commentary, I realized that you were wasting your time in vain because you do not understand Islam or do not want to understand!
            Quote: kos
            And fight all with the polytheists, as they all fight with you. And know that Allah is with the God-fearing! ” (9:36)
            I can explain a little that by polytheists, pagans can be understood as Christians, because Muslims are not able to adequately understand the dogma of the Trinity of God and understand him stupidly as polytheism.

            It’s clear from your explanation that you are not just not carefully reading, but to put it mildly!
            Quote: kos
            And fight all with the polytheists, as they all fight with you. And know that Allah is with the God-fearing! ”

            It means fighting with those who are fighting with you, who attacked you !!!
            Yes, I do not understand the Trinity of God, but like every Muslim I have a clear knowledge of Christians and how to deal with them !!
            “Say:“ We believe in Allah (praise be to Him, the Most High) and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, in what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets by their Lord. we make no distinction between them and surrender ourselves to Him "" (2: 136).

            Quote: kos
            The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: "I was ordered to fight people until they say:" There is no deity except Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger. " If they do this, they will protect from me their life and their property, which will be available only by law, and only Allah will require a report from them. ” (Bukhari, Muslim)

            No need to misinterpret, there they speak not with people but idolaters !!
            Quote: kos
            I can still list a lot. And I assure you, in the Quran and Sunnah the so-called the prophet has a lot of places that modern terrorists can take as an excuse and a direct call to action.

            They can take it if you, being illiterate in the religion of Allah!
            Quote: kos
            In general, I can talk about this a lot.

            And the point is to talk about what you don’t know about !!
        3. Yarbay
          0
          27 December 2012 18: 46
          Quote: Footmansur86
          You are mistaken, read about jihad in karana and be terrified

          Again copy paste from the forums of idolaters and atheists !!
          Write answers for a long time and I wrote dozens of times here !!
          Quote: Footmansur86

          Find something similar in the bible .............

          There in the same forums about the Christian religion!
          God calls for killing about a hundred times in the Bible,(I emphasized that you could compare with what you wrote about fifty calls for jihad, so that you appreciate the hand of the writer of both texts) and in about a thousand cases he himself exterminates people. Cruelty is the most common theme in the Bible.

          "When the Lord your God brings you into the land into which you are going to take possession of it, and he will drive out numerous nations from your presence ... and the Lord your God will deliver them to you, and smite them, then cast them to a curse, do not enter into an alliance with them and do not spare them "(Deut. 7: 1-2)

          "And in the cities of these peoples, which the Lord your God gives you for possession, leave not a soul alive, but put them to a curse" (Deut. 20: 16-17)

          "And they put to a curse everything in the city, men and women, young and old, and oxen, and sheep, and donkeys; [everything] they destroyed with the sword" (Joshua 6:21)

          "And Jesus smote all the land on the Mount and the noonday, and the lowlands and the land lying by the mountains, and all their kings: he left no one who would survive, and all that breathed he put to a spell, as the Lord God of Israel commanded" (Joshua 10: 40)

          "Now go and smite Amalek [and Jerim] and destroy everything that he has; [do not take anything from them, but destroy and curse everything that he has;] and give him no mercy, but put to death from husband to wives, from boy to suckling child, from ox to sheep, from camel to donkey. (1 Samuel 15: 3)
          I am convinced that all this, that is, those who hate God, write dirt about religions !!
          1. Footmansur86
            0
            15 January 2013 17: 44
            Listen to Muslims so peaceful and friendly when they write about their religion, here you are a Muslim, when your co-religionists in your presence begin to kill Christians or Buddhists, no matter what you do?
            I know only one thing that you will not contradict or stop them, but in the worst case you will join.
            All Muslims are still peaceful or in the minority, but gaining superiority reveals their true face, and by the way in Islam you can lie, even to friends and wives, not to mention the other categories, the main thing is to have an excuse for lying, such as you can lie to your wife to save your family , you can lie to a friend if this keeps friendship, well, you can safely lie if the truth will harm your religion.
      4. +5
        25 December 2012 13: 24
        Any religion can be "adjusted" to fit your selfish and base desires by pulling out "unnecessary" postulates from its concept ... And since when has the European Inquisition become a democratic force in the West? As for militant Islam, in my sincere opinion it needs to be cut at the root in the very beginning, isolating its apologists from society in ALL ways, in the Constitution it should be written that calls for a change of power in the country or on its separate territory (and Tataria is part of Russia) is tantamount to an attempted murder of two or more people (any revolution or action to implement separatism leads to the death of a very large number of people) with aggravating circumstances with a corresponding period of treatment somewhere in the White Swan or a similar sanatorium. Ideologists, especially those who have come from beyond the hillock or the dune, should be settled in a "krytka" somewhere on the island of Novaya Zemlya, so that it would be problematic for sympathizers to get on a date. am
      5. +9
        25 December 2012 14: 42
        Well, who was the first to attack and when .. a moot point. Let's start from the 8th - 9th centuries when the Islamic Arab expansion swept across territories from Spain to Central Asia. These were the classic "crusades" but in an Islamic interpretation and on a much larger scale. And also, remember, when did Orthodox Christians engage in the slave trade? And in Islamic countries and regions, they still do not disdain human trafficking. So it really can be argued.
      6. +5
        25 December 2012 16: 20
        Quote: Svarog
        Well, read the history - not the Muslims were the first to attack, but the familiar "democratic" forces of the West.

        Yah? And who the war passed the Arabian Peninsula, North Africa, Portugal, Spain, etc. almost 400 years before the crusades?
        Or again: "Is Rafik pure innocent?"
      7. +1
        26 December 2012 01: 44
        Quote: Svarog
        Religion itself does not call for such a thing. It is necessary to fight with the spread of its extreme directions

        From me too +1
    3. +13
      25 December 2012 09: 26
      Yes, in modern Russia, everything that concerns Islam is somehow connected with violence and aggression, the desire to split the country. And the "militant intelligentsia" would like to wish to closely follow the events in Syria and once again remember Chechnya, in the sense that independence in their version is fraught with a bunch of cut off heads, Sharia courts with executions on the spot and an elementary lack of food and the whole complex of social spheres to which this very intelligentsia is accustomed, well, do they want to be independent? It is they (the intelligentsia) who will work hard on the bandyugans, and the Wahhabis will slaughter the bad bosses.
      1. ilf
        ilf
        -23
        25 December 2012 09: 38
        Only who conquered the Caucasus in this long-term war, climbed into Afghanistan ... as they say the strongest wins.
        1. +19
          25 December 2012 14: 46
          Yeah, but how many mountaineers of the Caucasus, not decades, but centuries, were engaged in the robbery of ALL neighboring states, stealing, killing and stealing into slavery?
          1. +13
            25 December 2012 16: 44
            Quote: Mairos
            Yeah, but how many mountaineers of the Caucasus, not decades, but centuries, were engaged in the robbery of ALL neighboring states, stealing, killing and stealing into slavery?

            Moreover, it should be added that in Russia there was even introduced a separate article of state expenditures on the redemption of stolen into slavery!
            And how these "peaceful" shepherds slaughtered each other even before the Russians can be read among the people of that time. if anyone needs to look for quotes.
        2. +1
          26 December 2012 02: 09
          Quote: ilf
          Only who conquered the Caucasus in this long-term war, climbed into Afghanistan ..

          Orthodoxy, or something "climbed"? The usual historical process of the explicable expansion of a strong state. By the way, he never covered himself with bellicose religious slogans.
        3. -1
          27 December 2012 07: 56
          Once again, the zhek popped in and farted!
    4. +45
      25 December 2012 10: 05
      And the main thing is that everything is interesting ... All Muslims flee from countries where Muslim laws rule. In all these countries, chaos, poverty and anarchy. The exception is Qatar and one or two countries with a huge number of petrodollars. And all run to the damned infidels. And already there they are trying to establish their laws. The example of Europe is simply iconic. But these fools do not understand that they live well thanks to the infidels ... having established their wild laws, they will again receive a garbage dump as in their orthodox homeland. I do not want to offend the normal Muslims of Russia, who work for the good of their homeland, and live quietly without bothering with religion and other crap. Religion is like a firefly, and a firefly shines only in darkness. In the darkness of ignorance.
      PS The position of the leadership of the USSR crushing all religions is becoming more understandable to others.
      1. vyatom
        +8
        25 December 2012 12: 01
        Yes, I think in Soviet times, such issues were resolved quickly and specifically.
      2. +2
        25 December 2012 12: 02
        Mitek

        Great comment, support.
      3. +9
        25 December 2012 14: 47
        "All Muslims flee from countries ruled by Muslim laws. In all these countries, chaos, poverty and anarchy." - I also wanted to ask many apologists of Islam this question - "If Islam is such a blessing, then why is there poverty and blood there."
      4. +3
        25 December 2012 16: 50
        Quote: Mitek
        And the main thing is that everything is interesting ... All Muslims flee from countries where Muslim laws rule. In all these countries, chaos, poverty and anarchy.

        Look at the example of Constantinople (Istanbul). In the time of Byzantium, it was a huge city, a center of culture and science, and after its conquest by Muslims it turned into a market of apricots and spices.
        I strongly advise you to watch the film: "The death of the empire. Byzantine lesson". very important for today's Russia.

        Quote: Mitek
        Religion is like a firefly, and a firefly shines only in darkness. In the darkness of ignorance.

        This is another myth, people unfamiliar with the faith, say blind faith, faith fought with science, etc.
      5. ivachum
        +6
        25 December 2012 20: 57
        "The position of the leadership of the USSR, who crushed all religions, is becoming more and more clear to those around him."

        ....Unfortunately yes..... crying
    5. Guran96
      +14
      25 December 2012 10: 23
      Is there such sentiment in Tatarstan alone? Tuva, Bashkiria, even in the same Buryatia, they wanted to erect a monument to Genghis Khan. Take any national republic, not necessarily with a predominance of the Muslim population (although this is expressed more sharply here), everywhere one way or another they declare their claims and not love for their "elder brother." Moreover, at all levels, both at the state and at the household level. And all because under our leadership and tolerance they forgot JV Stalin, who recognized the Russian people as the leading force of the USSR among all the peoples of our multinational country!
      1. iulai
        0
        25 December 2012 11: 45
        Guran, in Bashkortostan there was never even a thought about installing a monument to Chinghiz Khan, read the story. the Bashkirs fought against the Mogulotars, but lost the war, like everyone else.
        1. vyatom
          0
          25 December 2012 12: 03
          that is, in Bashkiria there are no such moods as in Tatarstan?
          1. Serge
            +1
            25 December 2012 12: 45
            There is
            2010year
            In Bashkiria, a gang of radical Islamists who planned terrorist attacks in large cities of the republic was liquidated.

            http://www.gazeta.ru/social/2010/08/20/3409475.shtml

            2011year
            In Bashkiria, nine local residents were detained, alleged Wahhabis, who are suspected of illegal possession of weapons and the unauthorized overthrow of the imam of a mosque in Baymak.

            http://i-r-p.ru/page/stream-event/index-28455.html
          2. +12
            25 December 2012 14: 33
            This is not about Tatarstan, Bashkiria or else where these hobbits were caught. The presence of hobbits in the region does not reflect the mood of the majority. There are also Russian hobiits, a certain Buryat said for example. And there are others. This does not mean that the entire Russian population wants to live according to the wild laws of Sharia. This means one thing - there is a developed, well-concealed, well-financed network in the country. The task of this network is to destabilize the situation in the regions and the country as a whole. It's just that at this stage of historical development, representatives of the Muslim community are most easily treated as the least literate and much more religiously fanatical. Plus, Islam itself is an extremely aggressive religion, with calls for violence against "infidels." Radical Orthodoxy will begin, fascism will flourish and these organizations will be financed, while Muslims will disappear and quietly bend. These terrorist and radical formations are inherently ARTIFICIAL, funded from OUTSIDE. And we must fight them very hard. I don’t understand the government’s policy on this issue.
            1. mamba
              0
              25 December 2012 21: 38
              Quote: Mitek
              I do not understand government policy in this matter.

              GDP and LADIES! Maybe enough to protect thieves already? Isn't it time to look back at the country and people? After all, those whom you looked through your fingers all the years of your reign are already knocking at you: A separate point is the murder of the president of the Russian Federation: “we will kill him in the toilet, like Gaddafi in a sewer ...”. This is the last call, gentlemen!
          3. +1
            25 December 2012 16: 53
            Quote: vyatom

            that is, in Bashkiria there are no such moods as in Tatarstan

            In Bashkiria, no. This is a completely secular republic, but how do Tatars and Bashkirs drink here for the New Year ... Rather, we drink together !! drinks
        2. Guran96
          0
          25 December 2012 15: 37
          iulai and where does the monument to Genghis Khan in Bashkiria, we are talking about separatist sentiments. Read the comments carefully.
        3. 0
          25 December 2012 16: 50
          Yes, it was so, the ancestors of the Bashkirs, like the Bulgars, fought like the Russians and the Polovtsians with the Mongols, as well as everyone who came across the Batyev invasion rink.
      2. +2
        26 December 2012 02: 14
        Quote: Gouran96
        Tuva, Bashkiria, even in the same Buryatia wanted to erect a monument to Genghis Khan

        Neither in Tuva, nor in Buryatia there is no Islam. There is officially Buddhism. The MOST peaceful religion in the world. Well, and more shamanism. There, in general, they are not talking about other people of other faiths.
    6. Starksa
      +2
      25 December 2012 11: 26
      I considered more Catholics as such, we went to the Crusades all the time and in the name of God we killed just the same Muslims
      1. iulai
        -3
        25 December 2012 11: 48
        Yes, seven crusades were organized. in those days, Christianity was one. For some reason, Soviet and Russian historians are silent about the participation of Russian princes in these campaigns.
        1. Starksa
          0
          25 December 2012 11: 59
          If Russian people XII-XIII centuries. and rushed to Palestine, it was by no means out of a desire to stand in the ranks of the liberators of the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusades influenced Russia only in that they caused a rapid revival of interest in pilgrimage to holy places.

          http://oldrus.livejournal.com/194383.html
          1. +6
            25 December 2012 13: 39
            According to some signs, the campaign of the Livonian knights on the Principality of Nogorod in 1242 was such a crusade
        2. +4
          25 December 2012 13: 31
          Quote: iulai
          For some reason, Soviet and Russian historians are silent about the participation of Russian princes in these campaigns.

          Where is the evidence of participation in the Russian campaigns. When did the Russians go to exterminate other nations with the name of Christ?
        3. +3
          25 December 2012 14: 52
          Quote: iulai
          Yes, seven crusades were organized. in those days, Christianity was one.

          In what "those" times was Christianity united?
          1054g. consider the official date of separation of the Orthodox and Catholic churches. But even before that, there was no unanimity between Constantinople and Rome.
          1. YuDDP
            -3
            25 December 2012 21: 22
            After I read the books of Fomenko and the Nosovsky discussion, the likes of this one amaze me. Mom, Genghis Khan, X century and other stereotypes of school history ... I will not retell, I recommend reading.
            1. +1
              26 December 2012 00: 55
              YuDDP,
              read less pseudoscientific nonsense.
              1. YuDDP
                0
                28 December 2012 19: 58
                Yes, here too many of them fit together.
                Example: there is a mode when the navigation program displays a route along the path of the driver, regardless of the cardinal points. The machine in this mode is from below (in the south) and travels north.
                Also, the sea charts of the Middle Ages - north from below, south from above - that is, maps are drawn for ships leaving Azov.
                I hope I clearly explained.
                So this is a fact from the books of Fomenko with Nosovsky, and traditional history does not explain this. According to traditional history, at the head of the entire Geyrop, and Russia - in A.Nus
                So, I recommend reading it. Not only that, I would be glad if this story was taught at school, at least optionally
        4. +1
          25 December 2012 16: 52
          But indicate the info .. When and which of the Orthodox Princes participated in the Crusades of Catholics. I DO NOT BELIEVE! - said Stanislavsky. In principle, it could not be.
        5. +2
          25 December 2012 23: 26
          Quote: iulai
          Yes, seven crusades were organized. in those days, Christianity was one. For some reason, Soviet and Russian historians are silent about the participation of Russian princes in these campaigns.

          You're wrong. The split between the Eastern and Western Church occurred in 1054, i.e. since mid-11th century Christianity is no longer uniform.
          The Crusades were not only against Muslims, but also against the Orthodox. for example 1099 (from memory) the capture and plunder of Constantinople. After that, for 50 years, the Europeans exported gold from Constantinople. Largely due to this, the banking system of Europe appeared and developed, in particular the so-called the Venetian empire.
          It is also worth noting that most Christian shrines in European churches are stolen and exported from Byzantium.

          Again, I highly recommend the documentary: "Death of the Empire. Byzantine Lesson"
          http://pravfilms.ru/load/filmy/dokumentalnoe_kino/film_quot_gibel_imperii_vizant


          ijskij_urok_quot_smotret / 2-1-0-185
        6. 0
          26 December 2012 20: 48
          On this site there was an article about the reasons for the non-participation of Russians in the Crusades
          http://topwar.ru/1751-ot-grexa-v-koren-pochemu-russkie-ne-poshli-v-krestovyj-pox
          od.html
    7. His
      +1
      25 December 2012 11: 44
      It has long been banned as a particularly dangerous religion. Where it does not appear everywhere is war and destruction. Thank God that we are Orthodox
    8. Footmansur86
      +7
      25 December 2012 11: 46
      But what about the peaceful protests of Muslims in Libya, they shouted that the most peaceful and offended in the world and to prove their peaceful orientation they burned cars, killed an American diplomat, and cursed the infidels.
      Islam is a belligerent state; no other religion invokes or justifies murder other than Islam.
      1. 0
        25 December 2012 23: 37
        Quote: Footmansur86
        Islam is a belligerent state; no other religion invokes or justifies murder other than Islam.

        I agree. Islam is not just faith, not just religion, it is a true ideology. Islam completely subordinates all aspects of the life of the state: politics, economics, science, etc.
        This Islam is very different from Christianity. By and large, Christians don’t care who is in power (the political system is absolutely not important), the type of economy is not important, etc. Christianity is not called to build paradise on earth, because It has long been understood that this is utopia. Christianity educates the citizens of their true Homeland, the High World, the Kingdom of Heaven, so every Christian understands that he is visiting here and does not pay much attention to the structure of this world.
    9. +10
      25 December 2012 11: 50
      Quote: hohryakov066
      No one will ever convince me that Muslims are peaceful people and Islam is the religion of the world. Islam was created to seize power, Islam developed to seize power, all movements of Islam are initially aggressive! Show me at least one example of the opposite! Always and everywhere, while this infection spread throughout the world, it brought only pain and blood!


      Islam was originally the religion of the Arabs, religion arab caliphate, Originally serving to unite the Arab pagan tribes with the idea of ​​monotheism and create on this basis the caliphate, a form of power that
      It is carried out by a member of the Prophet Muhammad’s tribe, chosen by authoritative Muslims, that’s why the idea of ​​uniting all the Muslims of the world on the basis of the caliphate under the control of the Arabs of the Prophet’s descendants is so intensively promoted by the Islamists. They now have huge resources, oil, influence, support from America its idea of ​​controlled chaos, therefore, in the troubled waters of this chaos when the world lost its balance of power with the collapse of the USSR, the Islamists try to play their own game, impose their idea. By the way, the main split in Islam into the movements of Sunnis and Shiites occurred in the result of the struggle for power in 656, the reign of the third caliph Osman.
      1. +14
        25 December 2012 12: 22
        What was Muhammad calling for? abandon polytheism and go (return) to monotheism, to the faith of Ibrahim (Abraham) and Musa (Moses), and Isa (Jesus), read prayers, give alms to the needy and fast, feed the orphans, be fair, do not weigh in on trade deals. He claimed that Arabs' primordial faith, monotheism, faith in one God, the one that was with the ancestor of Adam, with Noah and others. Muhammad said that God sent prophets to people to guide them on the true path. There is no people to whom the prophet was not sent from God. . Therefore, in the verses (verses) of the Prophet there was initially nothing reactionary, there was a desire to unite people, warring tribes on the basis of faith in one God, to establish peace, order and tranquility. Another thing is that as always happened in other religions, the ruling clans began to use religious ideas are in their narrow interests and not in the interests of the whole people and all Muslims in particular. We see the same thing in the history of Christianity. Therefore, it is foolish to oppose one religion to another, initially there were no contradictions.
        1. von_Richten
          +4
          25 December 2012 20: 47
          There are two types of suras: Medina (hard-late) and Meccan (soft-early). In the Medda (late) surahs of the Qur'an, a struggle against infidels just appeared. Muslims have a rule of replacing old suras with new ones. The logic is clear, I hope?
        2. 0
          26 December 2012 21: 44
          Ascetic, I put a plus.
          I will only add that there are three religions called "Abrahamic". (named after Abraham)
        3. 0
          27 December 2012 08: 21
          SW Stanislav! I personally prefer to live today and judge by modern concepts. It is clear that everything was cool, but here is the result! Nevertheless, I can once again repeat that wherever Islam appeared, he left behind only grief. No one could cite any evidence to the contrary. I ask you to misunderstand - I am not a religious opponent of Islam and I am rather a Gnostic. But the feeling doesn’t leave me that as soon as atomic weapons appeared in the hands of Muslims, the scribe will come to everyone. they will gladly be exalted themselves, and we sinners will exalt before the deadline.
      2. +3
        25 December 2012 16: 56
        Vooot! This is where the roots of the "Islamic awakening" lie)) It is precisely that controlled chaos. And where, in Eurasia, ideally throughout! The United States decided to act on the principle - if we cannot think of anything better at home, then we will create HELL in other places and everyone will see our life as Paradise
    10. Rossamaha
      +1
      25 December 2012 11: 56
      You're wrong! In every nation, religion has its own patients, which must be isolated and kept in chains. To be faithful to them, you can still break the limbs. Such are in Christianity! stop
      1. +10
        25 December 2012 12: 07
        Quote: Rossamaha
        You're wrong! In every nation, religion has its own patients, which must be isolated and kept in chains. To be faithful to them, you can still break the limbs. Such are in Christianity!


        There is also in Christianity. What an example of the years of the "Holy Inquisition" in medieval Europe. This is where power leads religious fanatics in society. The main thing is separation of any religion from power and politics up to a ban And so all these crusades, holy jihads are just a screen in the struggle for power and the influence of certain influential circles who is behind it. Religion should be in the heart of a person. This is a purely intimate thing like conscience or love.. But by no means the banner of the struggle for something or a means for separating people on issues of Vepa, traditions or culture.
    11. Guun
      0
      25 December 2012 12: 06
      And the Orthodox priest? I was looking for God, I started with everything that came across. I read the Bible and know it, but I became a Muslim. Why? For example, a heartfelt conversation with an Orthodox priest and one.
      This person’s name is Vyacheslav Polosin, the names of others are not asked, they asked.
      And is it really possible to call the Crusades humane? They drowned the whole of Jerusalem in blood. Are the pedagogical priests the norm? So all Christians are perverts and sects in it? And do the popes take only the name of God from the Bibles, they set Roman laws and interpret Greek philosophy in its own way. Christianity was created by the emperors of Rome for absolute power and never corresponded. No one will convince me that Christianity is the right religion, I will give an example of the Grace Church sponsored by the Vatican.
      Minus or plus your business. And how many people believed that the deathly new Jesus?
      1. His
        +4
        25 December 2012 12: 45
        Remember the Crusades, and when were they? At the dawn of mankind. It was after this that the Christian faith led us to such a concept as humanism, humanity.
        Now people are flying into space and the Islamists are trying to drive us into the Middle Ages. Isn't this a threat to us all?
        1. +9
          25 December 2012 13: 18
          Quote: Own
          Now people are flying into space and the Islamists are trying to drive us into the Middle Ages. Isn't this a threat to us all?


          This is the youngest religion, six centuries younger than Christianity, if you stupidly take the calendar, then they are just in the 15th century, But remember what happened in Europe at that time? Therefore, they are now in the Middle Ages. Similarly, civilizations are developing unevenly. Maybe this is also the reason? Apparently, any civilization and religion should survive a certain stage of its development, Here they have become unlimited money and consciousness at the level of obscurantism of the Middle Ages
          Once again, I repeat all the phenomena that need to be considered in a historical perspective. Initially, Islam was progressive, served to unite peoples - tribes, the development of culture and productive forces. Over time, ANY religious dogma comes into conflict with the development of mankind and BRAKES its development, All this is well known from history, If in the Renaissance in Europe and during the time of Ivan the Terrible in Russia, churchmen of dogmatics were gradually removed from state power. The Renaissance began, then in Islamic countries it still does not succeed, Take for example the Saudis or Shiite Iran with the ayatollahs. Plus, for some reason, this situation is beneficial to the Americans. Example - they are actively destroying secular regimes in Muslim countries if they prevent them from ruling the world, Libya, Egypt, Syria is the same, it is easier to manage the dark masses and use their resources.
          1. His
            +3
            25 December 2012 14: 47
            During wars, the country dramatically loses development momentum. We had it in the 90s. Amers now has an era of high technology, artificial intelligence will appear soon, robots, etc. Against this background, the primitive military actions of the natives, the destruction of stable states, which at one time could object to the United States, including by military means. And now? Complete military hegemony of the United States in the most important energy region of the planet.
          2. +3
            25 December 2012 14: 57
            Quote: Ascetic
            This is the youngest religion, six centuries younger than Christianity, if you stupidly take the calendar, then they are just in the 15th century, But remember what happened in Europe at that time? Therefore, they are now in the Middle Ages. Similarly, civilizations are developing unevenly. Maybe this is also the reason?

            I also thought that way. Apparently, religion, like any other socio-organizational form, needs to go through certain stages of growing up. Perhaps Islam is experiencing the same "childhood" diseases as Catholicism in the Middle Ages.

            Of course, these words can be attributed to religion only in its external aspect, without affecting the deeper moral spiritual strata.
          3. 0
            26 December 2012 00: 21
            Quote: Ascetic
            Over time, ANY religious dogma comes into conflict with the development of mankind and BRAKES its development,

            Ascetic, with all due respect, this is not so.
            If you can list Christian dogmas (for this you need to understand what dogma is in general) that impede the development of mankind.

            Similar misconceptions about the interaction of science and religion directly emerge from Soviet propaganda. Dozens, if not hundreds of believers of great scientists, are an example of this.
            Moreover, science itself grew out of monasteries.
          4. Misantrop
            0
            26 December 2012 00: 38
            Ascetic, it would be interesting to know an opinion on one interesting issue. Does the appearance of a standard mosque look like nothing? What about the minaret? IMHO if you look at the silhouette, it is very similar to a classic rocket and a flight control tower with a radio telescope in the dome. Did a soldier of a defeated stellar empire fly one and a half thousand years ago? what
            1. +3
              26 December 2012 01: 45
              Misantrop,

              In general, there are no strict rules and standards in mosque architecture as far as I know. Here for example
              LaLa Tulip Mosque in Ufa. Here you can also see the rocket and radar
              1. Misantrop
                0
                26 December 2012 10: 58
                This is strange IMHO. And the rule is there - the minaret is always (of those that I came across) located separately. Is this not an unconscious attempt to repeat what he once saw in the calculation to get the same opportunities? How now do adherents of one funny religion on the Pacific Islands build runways and mock-ups of transport planes from the Second World War?
                1. Misantrop
                  0
                  26 December 2012 13: 31
                  Something was thought, it may not be directly connected with Islam. Just a fancifully transformed memory of the people that a place where you can talk with God should look just like that. It is no coincidence that the Baalbek porch, located in some places, according to some ufologists, was originally built as something like a launch pad. And German Anenerbe, it seems, in the same places was persistently looking for something. And judging by the powerful breakthrough precisely in Germany of those years, rocket technology is not so unsuccessful ... recourse
      2. +3
        25 December 2012 13: 58
        All these examples relate to the Catholic religion, which split off during the division of the Roman Empire into Western and Eastern (unfortunately I did not delve into the details of the split), but in the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium) there was just a tolerant attitude towards any religion and, as a result, Byzantium was economically was a very strong state until the Ottomans came to its walls. I have no facts for the Orthodox Church to be forcibly implanted in other nations. The fact that there was a schism under Nikon is the embodiment of the Roman rule "Divide and rule". All sorts of scum, like the Wahhabis, carry this with them, and the Middle East "civilian" regimes, vassals of the Anglo-Saxons, who play into the hands of the weakening of one of their world competitors, play along with them.
      3. +4
        25 December 2012 17: 03
        Damn it, where the crusades compete with the Islamic expansion of the 7-9 centuries, the whole of Central Asia, the Middle East and North Africa was Islamized with a spear and were noted in Spain. That's where the scope was, and you mean Jerusalem ... It's just that Islam is now adolescent, like the Catholics in the 10-11 centuries, they want to build everyone, all the more clever uncles from overseas have thrown this idea on them and promote them. This is how they will run into a couple of times "in an adult way", as the crusaders in their time, and will calm down. In the meantime, political Islam does not get susal, it will not stop - everything is like Catholics - history repeats itself.
      4. +5
        25 December 2012 23: 59
        Quote: Guun
        This person’s name is Vyacheslav Polosin

        AND! This is Ali Vyacheslav Polosin, my sworn friend. I know I know...
        Only one but. For his interpretation of Islam, the very same Afghan or Saudi Muslims will be stoned. He has a mixture of Christianity, as he is a former priest and of Islam.

        For the rest, your answer is filled with quite typical errors.

        1. You are talking with the Orthodox, so you do not have to weave the atrocities of the Western Church here. The Orthodox suffered from them no less.
        2. Expose the crusaders as bloodthirsty bandits who drenched Jerusalem with blood. And Muslims, having passed by fire and sword to Europe 400 years before the Crusades, sprinkled exclusively roses and violets on their way.
        3. The fact that Christianity was created by the Roman emperors is nonsense understandable to anyone more or less familiar with history. Which emperors created Christianity: Nero, Troyan, Marcus Aurelius, Diocletian? Under Constantine the Great (4 c), Christians for the first time received equal rights with the Gentiles.
        4. Muslims are very fond of talking about the rewriting of Christianity, but with confirmation, as always, it is extremely bad.

        Usually, when religions are compared, they look at their peaks, at their founders (if I may say so). For Christians, Jesus is a model of a perfect man and an ideal to strive for. For Muslims, this is Muhammad. From a moral point of view, Muhammad is a man to whom I would not give a hand. For Christians, Muhammad is a deceived person. For those who are familiar with Orthodox asceticism with Muhammad, everything is clear.
    12. Lucky
      0
      25 December 2012 12: 08
      And what do you suggest?
    13. airatt
      +15
      25 December 2012 13: 25
      I am a Tatar and also a great-grandson of the mullah !!! all my life my grandfathers and great-grandfathers urged to live in peace and harmony! and we grew up together with the Russian Chuvash, the Mordovian Ingush and were always friends and never had conflicts and we still live like this !!! the invented trend and its Salofites rub into the heads of uneducated young people !!! and those who shoot and blow up peaceful people of no relation to Islam do not have their own god "DOLLAR" and without him they will not budge their ass and religion as a cover !! ! remember the crusades as the crusaders plundered and devastated the land and covered themselves with faith !!! MONEY AND POWER !!! that's what drives them and religion is a cover for uneducated people !!! you need to separate flies from cutlets!
      1. +2
        25 December 2012 15: 03
        Quote: airatt
        I am a Tatar and still a great-grandson of a mullah !!! all my life my grandfathers and great-grandfathers urged us to live in peace and harmony! and we grew up with the Russian Chuvash, Mordvins Ingush and always were friends and there have never been conflicts and we still live like that !!!

        God grant that it be so. But, unfortunately, reality tells us to prepare for the worst.
      2. 0
        25 December 2012 17: 07
        Right! Once upon a time, Catholic crusaders plundered under religious appeals, and now Islamist radicals. This is called political Islam and its end will be like that of the crusaders.
    14. +1
      25 December 2012 16: 11
      Quote: hohryakov066

      No one will ever convince me that Muslims are peaceful people and Islam is the religion of the world. Islam was created to seize power, Islam developed to seize power, all movements of Islam are initially aggressive! Show me at least one example of the opposite! Always and everywhere, while this infection spread throughout the world, it brought only pain and blood!

      I totally agree.
      Not many people know that according to Islam, the whole earth is divided into two parts: the land of peace and the land of war. The land of the world is the land where Sharia law is in effect. The land of war, in turn, is divided into two parts: the land of cease-fire, a land where Sharia law does not apply yet, but nothing prevents Muslims from practicing their religion, and the land of jihat, where Muslims are forbidden to practice their religion, so every Muslim is obligated wage a war there for liberation.

      And if you read the biography of Mohamed (for Christians he is a false prophet), then it is clear that the sword lies in the very cradle of this religion.

      It is very bad that in Islam there is no orthodoxy, the rules of faith, on the example of ecumenical councils of Christians, on which the Church defined in the form of oros-borders of the true doctrine of lies. Therefore, in Islam there are a lot of movements and not one Muslim has the right to call Salafi (Wahhabi) non-Muslim (I can call Protestants, Baptists, Anglicans, etc. heretics as a Christian, but based on the conciliar decisions of the ancient Church) until he publicly renounces Islam.
      In addition, look at the striking difference between Russian Muslims and the refined Islam of Afghanistan, KSA, UAE, Yemen, etc. This is all the result of contact with Christianity, which people from the above countries do not know.
      1. 12061973
        -4
        25 December 2012 18: 47
        in which Sharia state. it is not found anywhere, even in Saudi Arabia.
        1. von_Richten
          +1
          25 December 2012 20: 52
          In many. I read the Constitution of Yemen. Sharia norms are recognized as the main ones there.
    15. rate
      0
      25 December 2012 17: 47
      If the power is weak, the separatists feel it. So their greyhound is a marker of weakness in power. Putin's problem is Medvedev. Until it is removed so everything will continue.
    16. 0
      25 December 2012 18: 22
      Have you read what Islam is calling for? Not sects (like Wahhabism), but traditional. If you search, then in other religions there will be sects calling for violence. therefore, it is not correct to align all under one comb.
      1. 0
        26 December 2012 00: 26
        Quote: Hauptmann Emil
        Have you read what Islam is calling for? Not sects (like Wahhabism), but traditional.

        And excuse me on the basis of what you suddenly decided that Wahhabism is a sect?
        Wahhabism is the official religion of the KSA for example.
        Or maybe I missed some kind of Muslim cathedrals that expressed the general opinion of the Ummah in relation to Salafis / Wahhabis?
        If there are any, please. In the meantime, you have no right to call a Wahhabite a non-Muslim (this was directly said by Muslims at the Slovo forum, where I was).
    17. +2
      25 December 2012 19: 14
      I’m a Muslim. But I would have smashed with pleasure ...
      1. 0
        25 December 2012 21: 15
        arnulla, will you take me with you? You will break this "crystal", and I will bury it wink
    18. rolik
      +2
      26 December 2012 00: 09
      appeal of the new "Amir of Tatarstan" Abdullah. He replaced the “supreme” in this gang after the murdered Muhammad (Raisa Mingaleeva) and Abu Musa (Robert Valeev). Amir reported on the work done and shared with the audience plans for the gang.
      He said that he signed a death sentence for himself, I hope he stocked up with green stuff.
    19. 0
      26 December 2012 00: 45
      and let's cut each other - to hell with the dog wink , some are dark, others believe in whatever we like, others still don’t speak Russian! such hatred that sorry Buddha is really so ashamed that you belong to homo sapiens.
      I, as a communist, in the zen-Orthodox sense, affirm that apart from arms sellers, no one will gain anything sensible from hatred bully ; at the same time, as a person born in the USSR, it will be interesting for me to see how the Earth burns up in nuclear fire - well, to say the same, I said, capitalism sucks.
      when I see such comments, I always think about how our grandfathers had to - in the same trench and an atheist, and a believer and a Muslim, and a dude reading shamans - but after all, in order to sit in it, you’ll have to dig four years in the summer- fall-winter-spring, and blah still have to fight with the best army in the world and it is necessary with almost all of Europe!
      really - if our grandfathers read what they wrote here, oh, and they would flog us.
      Respectfully Karlsonn hi .
    20. +4
      26 December 2012 00: 47
      and let's cut each other - to hell with the dog wink , some are dark, others believe in whatever we like, others still don’t speak Russian! such hatred that sorry Buddha is really so ashamed that you belong to homo sapiens.
      I, as a communist, in the zen-Orthodox sense, affirm that apart from arms sellers, no one will gain anything sensible from hatred bully ; at the same time, as a person born in the USSR, it will be interesting for me to see how the Earth burns up in nuclear fire - well, to say the same, I said, capitalism sucks.
      when I see such comments, I always think about how our grandfathers had to - in the same trench and an atheist, and a believer and a Muslim, and a dude reading shamans - but after all, in order to sit in it, you’ll have to dig four years in the summer- fall-winter-spring, and blah still have to fight with the best army in the world and it is necessary with almost all of Europe!
      really - if our grandfathers read what they wrote here, oh, and they would flog us.
      Respectfully Karlsonn hi .
      1. +1
        26 December 2012 01: 10
        Karlsonn,
        What is the hatred here? If I, as an Orthodox person (familiar with dogmatic theology, that is, I know the rules of faith preserved by the Church from the first centuries), say that Islam is a false religion, and Muhammad is not a prophet, then am I the instigator of hatred? Those. can not be called white white? Not tolerant? By the way, Muslims also do not consider Christianity to be a true religion. but it doesn’t bother me. Why are they so susceptible?
        for example, the film "The Last Temptation of Christ". From the point of view of Christians, this is a direct and impudent blasphemy, but I don’t remember burning shops, riots and murders. Now remember the consequences of the film "Innocence of Muslims" (where, by the way, a lot of truth). Why are they so intolerant of our opinion?

        Now the following.
        Christianity teaches us to separate the erring from his error, the sinner from his sin, not to identify these concepts. For us, Muslims are erring (many quite sincerely) people, not some enemies.
        I live in Bashkiria, I have many Muslim friends with whom we communicate very well. I have relatives from my Muslim wife (my wife, thank God, was baptized) and nothing, peaceful, interesting communication.
        Nobody talks about the household level at all, there are no prerequisites for hostility, but if a theological discussion begins, then excuse me, a Christian cannot be cunning and tolerantly dodging.
        1. -4
          26 December 2012 02: 50


          Quote: kos
          What is the hatred here?
          wink


          Quote: kos
          If I, as an Orthodox person (familiar with dogmatic theology, that is, I know the rules of faith preserved by the Church from the first centuries), say that Islam is a false religion, and Muhammad is not a prophet, then am I the instigator of hatred?


          Yes, you as a person overflowing with pride judge other people.


          Quote: kos
          Those. can not be called white white? Not tolerant?


          I’m like a Russian, I’ll say - the plague on the house of contention! Under the Russian - Soviet all lived together, but if we continue this orgy of independence - we will get to tribal autonomy, to the delight of our enemies.


          Quote: kos
          By the way, Muslims also do not consider Christianity a true religion.


          math part learn.


          Quote: kos
          Why are they so susceptible?


          perhaps because their heretical Christian Christians have long slaughtered and exploited?



          Quote: kos
          Christianity teaches us to separate the erring from his error, the sinner from his sin, not to identify these concepts.



          yeah, teach me how and what to believe good . Dear Friend - Did you actually go under death? (not modest, but important).

          Quote: kos
          For us, Muslims are erring (many quite sincerely) people, not some enemies.


          respected, Orthodox Christian does not have the right to judge others, he can kill, but to judge - no! You bear heresy, only God can recognize a person guilty or erring.

          Quote: kos
          for example, the film "The Last Temptation of Christ"
          1. -1
            26 December 2012 02: 51
            he warps me very much, as if I know that I’m flying past paradise like plywood - I really want to execute the creators of this monstrous attack on Orthodoxy personally Yes .


            Quote: kos
            but something I don’t remember ripened shops, riots and killings


            Well, Orthodoxy has been torn to pieces, but what can one expect from heretics?


            Quote: kos
            Now remember the consequences of the movie "Innocence of Muslims"


            there would be at least a couple of hundred thousand convinced Orthodox Christians and everyone who came up about scribbles would sleep out of fear - "pogrom" is a Russian word that entered the lexicons of many languages ​​and Pushkin was mistaken - the Russian rebellion is not meaningless and merciless, the Russian rebellion - when there is something, be patient was gone.
            Muslims are more active and united, our misfortune is that we are not like that.


            Quote: kos
            (where by the way a lot of truth). Why are they so intolerant of our opinion?


            Have you come to us from Mars?


            Quote: kos
            I live in Bashkiria, I have many Muslim friends with whom we communicate very well.



            Sincerely happy for you.

            Quote: kos
            but if a theological discussion begins, then excuse me, a Christian cannot be cunning and tolerantly dodging.


            I agree, we Russians understood under the Horde that it was a mistake to oppress people for faith, that’s why English capitalism-imperialism always lost Russian expansion, that’s why England was the tight-lipped bologna of its former colony, and Russia, no matter what, was the most a large country in the world, although you can correct it with your view of religion.
          2. +1
            26 December 2012 23: 02
            Quote: Karlsonn
            Yes, you as a person overflowing with pride judge other people.

            Following your wrong logic, you are also overflowing with pride, because judge me. wink
            I don’t need to judge Muhammad, our Church has long passed its judgment on him and I, as a Christian, cannot think otherwise.
            Here are quotes from the saints and fathers of the Church (far from all, but enough):
            St. Ignatius Brianchaninov:

            "Then only faith is holy and true, when it is faith in holy Truth, when it is faith brought to earth by the Divine Truth made human, by our Lord Jesus Christ. Any other faith, except faith in holy Truth, is superstition. The fruits of superstition are destruction. ... Such faith is condemned by God: idolaters in their idols believe in it, Muslims in the false prophet Mohammed and the Koran, heretics in their blasphemous dogmas and in their heresearchs, rationalists in the fallen reason of man. Her followers will believe in the Antichrist. "

            Venerable Theophanes the Confessor: "This year, Muhammad, the leader and false prophet of the Saracens, died, electing his relative Abu Bakr to rule in advance. And when at that time the rumor about this passed, everyone was afraid."

            Venerable Maximus the Greek: "Now I will turn to the other wickedness of this Muhammad and, with the help of God, I will expose him, showing that he is, indeed, a flatterer and a wolf, clothed in sheep's skin, and the forerunner and preacher of the God-fighter-Antichrist, who has come."

            etc.
            There is a decision of the Council of Constantinople in 1180:
            "Anathema to Muhammad, [and his] teaching transmitted in the Koran, in which he confesses that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is not the Son of God; he calls good bad, but exposes light to darkness, and yet [anathema] to bad teaching him, contrary to the sacred teachings of Christ and the wise saints, as well as [anathema] and the one who inspired him to think and teach these nasty and despicable things, whether it is any of the people, or the evil leader of demons and the father of evil, or himself bad Muhammad bore such ugly fruits from himself, in addition, anathema to those who [believe] that Muhammad is a prophet and messenger, from whom they received teachings and commandments contrary to the teachings of Christ. "

            You can read here: http://www.um-islam.nm.ru/fathers.htm
            1. 0
              26 December 2012 23: 06
              Continued ...

              In addition to all this, the Church has the rite of renunciation of the teachings of Muhammad at the baptism of a Muslim (did you know about this?):
              Here is a part of it:

              Behold, child, the time of the instruction of your repose. Also, you were especially asked if you, for the sake of Christ and for the salvation of your soul, would your Christian be desirable: both now and then, before the church meeting, you must declare this, the first falsehood; and the Orthodox faith is clearly professed.

              Q. Do Mohammedans' faith and all their false beliefs be denied, and is it left completely?
              O.Veru Mohammedan and pseudo-mudding sweep them and leave them.
              Q. Does Mohammed, as a lying prophet, deny?
              A. I impute him to be a lying prophet and deny him.
              B. Does the book called Alcoran and all, even within it, false tales, statutes and traditions are denied?
              O. I deny Alcoran, and all, even in him false lies, statutes and traditions.
              Q. Do you reject the Mohammedan rule about traveling to Mecca, for the sake of worshiping Tamo, supposedly soul-saving?
              O. Reject, as superstitious.
              Q. Does the Mahometan blasphemous doctrine of polygamy in this life, and of sensual delight in paradise after death, be rejected?
              O. I deny it, and I reject this doctrine, which is a fabrication of fake pleasures.
              Q. Do all false words and blasphemy be denied, even Mohammedans scolded Christ, His Most Holy Mother and Christians?
              O. Denied.


              It is not for nothing that the Lord gave us the mind and the ability to think. In addition, He teaches us to distinguish between good and evil, falsehood and truth, and it would be absolutely wrong to reject this gift of God and, like an ostrich, burying his head in the sand, say: I know nothing, I see nothing.

              Quote: Karlsonn
              I’m like a Russian, I’ll say - the plague on the house of contention! Under the Russian - Soviet all lived together, but if we continue this orgy of independence - we will get to tribal autonomy, to the delight of our enemies

              What does nationality have to do with it? yes at least Bashkirin. It is completely incomprehensible about what kind of contention is it? I already wrote that at the household level there should not be discord and enmity, but at the same time, a person should understand that when it comes to doctrinal truths, tolerance is not at all appropriate, moreover, it becomes a betrayal.
              1. +1
                26 December 2012 23: 08
                Quote: Karlsonn
                math part learn

                Let's study together. Bring me ayahs or quotations from the sunnah of the "prophet" which says about the truth and equality of Christianity. I'm looking forward to it.

                Quote: Karlsonn
                perhaps because their heretical Christian Christians have long slaughtered and exploited?

                And Muslims are directly shepherd peaceful peasants and farmers ... They never fought, did not rob, did not kill and were not taken into slavery. And Istanbul has never been one of the largest centers of the slave trade. Oh well

                Quote: Karlsonn
                yeah, teach me how and what to believe

                Those. do you disagree with the principle of Christianity: "love the sinner and hate the sin"? Or did you already know about it?
                And what do you mean by "walking by death"? If you are asking if I was very close to death, I will answer yes, twice.

                Quote: Karlsonn
                respected, Orthodox Christian does not have the right to judge others, he can kill, but to judge - no!

                Many Christians, who are not particularly interested in their faith, distortedly understand the words of Christ: "do not judge, let not be judged."
                Christianity distinguishes between condemnation and reproof. If I say to a person, “You stole”, this is a denunciation. If I say, "You are a thief," that is condemnation. When we condemn, we are, as it were, passing the final judgment, summing up a person's entire life, determining who he is, identifying a person and his sin. This is inadmissible, only one Judge-God can do it. But a Christian can, and sometimes simply must, give a moral assessment to a person's deed.

                Further generally interesting.
                What does the Orthodox mean can kill? Who allowed it to him?
                On the contrary, the Lord says that a murderer is not only the one who kills, but also the one who is simply angry with his neighbor!
                In cases of protection of the neighbor, the Christian is obliged to do everything that depends on him, even to kill, but only this as a sin was and will remain, regardless of the reasons. In the ancient Church, there was even a tradition of excommunication for some time from the Communion of Wars, because they stained their hands with blood. But in Islam, by the way, killing is not always considered a sin.

                Quote: Karlsonn
                You bear heresy, only God can recognize a person guilty or erring.

                Heresy is a false doctrine refuted at one of the Councils or in conflict with consensus patrum (consent of the fathers). Now explain to me what decision, which Council I violated.
                You use terms that you simply don’t know the meaning of.

                And God, by the way, has already said his word. Read the New Testament, get acquainted with the Holy Tradition of the Church and you will be happy.
                1. +1
                  27 December 2012 01: 08
                  Quote: kos
                  Let's study together. Bring me ayahs or quotations from the sunnah of the "prophet" which says about the truth and equality of Christianity. I'm looking forward to it.


                  let's hi

                  How many Christian leaders are revered by Muslims?


                  Quote: kos
                  And Muslims are directly shepherd peaceful peasants and farmers ... They never fought, did not rob, did not kill and were not taken into slavery. And Istanbul has never been one of the largest centers of the slave trade. Oh well


                  then everyone behaved like that, but Muslims missed and honored - the law of hospitality, pilgrims of Christians to places of worship, than the crusaders heretics took advantage of.


                  Quote: kos
                  Those. do you disagree with the principle of Christianity: "love the sinner and hate the sin"? Or did you already know about it?


                  how should this principle be expressed in your attitude towards the sinner?


                  Quote: kos
                  If you ask if I was very close to death, then I will answer yes, twice.


                  very strange then your attitude towards people.


                  Quote: kos
                  Many Christians, who are not particularly interested in their faith, distortedly understand the words of Christ: "do not judge, let not be judged."
                  Christianity distinguishes between condemnation and reproof. If I say to a person, “You stole”, this is a denunciation.


                  this is only your personal opinion on Orthodoxy.

                  Quote: kos
                  Further generally interesting.
                  What does the Orthodox mean can kill? Who allowed it to him?


                  learn materiel.
                  1. -1
                    27 December 2012 01: 12
                    learn materiel.

                    Quote: kos
                    In the ancient Church, there was even a tradition of excommunication for some time from the Communion of Wars, because they stained their hands with blood. But in Islam, by the way, killing is not always considered a sin.


                    dear friend, it’s even uncomfortable for me as a communist to incriminate your ignorance No. Please study the question of the attitude to the soldiers in the Russian army from Kievan Rus to the first, well, when Russian soldiers and soldiers could be allowed to the sacraments, which was penance.


                    Quote: kos
                    But in Islam, by the way, killing is not always considered a sin.


                    The Quran in Russian, of course, is not the Quran, read at least in the Russian translation - nonsense will disappear by itself.


                    Quote: kos
                    You use terms that you simply don’t know the meaning of.


                    the fact that we disagree, does not give you a reason to say so.


                    Quote: kos
                    And God, by the way, has already said his word. Read the New Testament, get acquainted with the Holy Tradition of the Church and you will be happy.


                    Communists personal happiness-is not necessary.
                  2. 0
                    1 January 2013 10: 35
                    Quote: Karlsonn
                    How many Christian leaders are revered by Muslims?

                    Who are "Christian leaders"? Not quite clear. List, and I will choose from them.

                    Quote: Karlsonn
                    then everyone behaved like that, but Muslims missed and honored - the law of hospitality, pilgrims of Christians to places of worship, than the crusaders heretics took advantage of.

                    Before answering, I can tell you directly: in all your posts your enthusiasm for the Quran is very visible.
                    answer: You have excellent logic ... It’s the same as if I would have kicked you out of your apartment, and then I would show my generosity by occasionally allowing you to visit it. Hello!
                    Quote: Karlsonn
                    how should this principle be expressed in your attitude towards the sinner?

                    But Muslims, for the most part, do not understand this either.
                    Example gay.
                    Yes, pederasty is a vile perversion of human nature is a sin, but this does not mean that homosexuals can be beaten, humiliated or killed. A Christian should pray for such a person, to help him in every possible way out of this painful condition.
                    In general, it doesn’t matter who needs help, but even to the Satanist, any person, first of all, is an image of God who is not identified with his sin.
                    This means loving the sinner and hating sin.

                    Quote: Karlsonn
                    learn materiel.

                    This phrase, often found, doesn’t color you at all. At one time, I studied theology at the university, therefore, I still know a little bit and I could write something like that more than once.
                    So all the same, where did you find the permission to kill, if the Savior himself forbids this?

                    Quote: Karlsonn
                    dear friend, it’s even uncomfortable for me as a communist to expose your ignorance, please study the question of the attitude to the soldiers in the Russian army from Kievan Rus to the first one, well, when the Russian soldiers and soldiers could be admitted to the sacraments, which was like penance.

                    Be more modest.
                    In my opinion, I clearly wrote in the "ancient Church", where does the Russian wars?
                    I had in mind the 13th rule of swt. Basil the Great (I hope you know who it is).

                    Quote: Karlsonn
                    the fact that we disagree, does not give you a reason to say so.

                    You start telling me about theologians here.
                    There are terms with a very specific meaning and you do not need to invent your own.
                    So I'm waiting for what decision of which Council I violated, that you accuse me of heresy.
                2. Yarbay
                  0
                  27 December 2012 18: 25
                  I read your dialogue with Carlson!
                  As for your views, this is your right!
                  You can write a lot about the attitude of religions to each other and one topic is not enough
                  Quote: kos
                  Let's study together. Bring me ayahs or quotations from the sunnah of the "prophet" which says about the truth and equality of Christianity. I'm looking forward to it.

                  Let's!
                  I here cited in other topics these verses and statements of the Prophet Muslims about Christians and the Christian faith, for you I will repeat part of them!
                  The Jews and Christians in the Qur'an have a special relationship. They are called the phrase ahl al-Kitab, that is, the "people of the Scriptures (Books, Messages)." There should be a more friendly attitude towards the “people of the Scripture”, regardless of whether they are in the Islamic world or beyond.
                  The appeal to them of Allah (praise be to Him, the Almighty) "O people of the Scripture" OR "O you, the owners of the Scriptures" emphasizes that they originally belonged to the same, single religion of the prophets of monotheism.

                  “Say:“ We believed in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was sent to Ibrahim, Ishmael, Ishaq, Yakub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We do not distinguish between any of them, and we surrender unto Him. ” (Cow, 136).
                  “He legitimized for you in religion that which he bequeathed to Nuha, that we revealed to you and that bequeathed to Ibrahim, and Musa, and Isa (Jesus):“ Keep faith straight and do not divide in it. ” (Council, 13).
                  speaking of Christians, Allah (praise be to Him, the Almighty) said: “Undoubtedly, you will be convinced that those who say:“ Indeed, we are Christians ”are the most friendly to those who believe. This is because there are scholars and monks among them, and because they are not proud ”(5:82).
                  The Qur'an permits Muslims to have the closest contacts with the "people of the Scripture": "The food of the people of the Scripture is permitted to you, and your food is permitted to them. Women of chastity from those who believed and women of chastity from among those who have been given the Scripture before you are allowed to marry you ”(5: 5).
                  “Do not argue with the owners of the Book, except with dignity and honor, in the best way, besides those who unjustly inflict (intentional) evil on you. And say: "We believe in what has been sent down to us and to you. Our God and yours are truly one, and only to Him we surrender" "(29:46).
                  If mutual understanding is not reached, the Muslim must wish the interlocutors of the world and conclude the discussion: “I will not worship what you worship, and you will not worship what I worship. Your faith is yours, mine is mine! ” (109: 4-6).
                  The Quran affirms the principle of peaceful competition with representatives of other monotheistic religions in matters of piety:
                  “If Allah (praise be to Him, the Most High) wanted, He would make you one community. But He wanted to test you with what He gave you. Therefore, compete with each other in good deeds. To Allah (praise be to Him, the Most High) you will all return, and He will judge you in what you argued among themselves ”(5:48).
                  Allah (praise be to Him, Almighty) commands to show kindness and justice in relation to the Gentiles: “Allah (praise be to Him, Almighty) the prohibition does not give you virtue and justice to show to those people who have not fought against you, did not drive you out of the house you. Truly God loves the fair!"(60: 8).
                  The Prophet Muhammad (praise be to Him, the Almighty) said: “Verily, he who offends a person living in Muslim territory (not a Muslim), or infringes on his rights, or entrusts to him that which he cannot afford, or takes anything from him against his will, that I will become an adversary on the Day of Resurrection! ”
                  1. 0
                    1 January 2013 09: 55
                    Quote: Yarbay
                    The Jews and Christians in the Qur'an have a special relationship. They are called the phrase ahl al-Kitab, that is, the "people of the Scriptures (Books, Messages)." There should be a more friendly attitude towards the “people of the Scripture”, regardless of whether they are in the Islamic world or beyond.

                    Alibek, all these arguments are known to me, because There is some experience in discussions with Muslims.
                    Orthodox are not "Book people". I understand that from the point of view of Muslims Muhammad's merit is that he brought the Koran, a copy of the Heavenly Koran, but Jesus did not bring any Scripture, He brought something completely different, incomparably greater. Talking about Christians as people The book means not at all to understand the essence of Christianity, the meaning of the coming of the Son of God. Here are Protestants, yes, the real people of the book, tk. they think the Bible is EVERYTHING.

                    Regarding the special attitude.
                    I already wrote about the dualism of the Koran, about how it coexists in calls for violence and peace.
                    "8 (39). Fight the unbelievers until they stop seducing [the believers from the path of Allah] and until they worship only Allah.", "2 (191). And kill them [the unbelievers] wherever you are. met, drive them out of the places from which they drove you, for for them delusion is worse than death at your hand. "

                    And here's another interesting thing about friendship:
                    "56 (51). O you who believed! Do not take Jews and Christians as friends: they are friends to one another. And if any of you takes them as friends, he is one of them. Verily, Allah does not lead unrighteous people! "

                    At one time, Muslims responded to this that at that time there was a war and all the words of Muhammad refer to wartime, but who said that wartime cannot be repeated?

                    About the veneration of Jesus.
                    Muslims do not know Jesus, they know some kind of Isa (the difference in description with Jesus in the New Testament is simply striking). We honor and worship Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Second Hypostasis of the Triune God. You honor the man of Isa the prophet whose mission was a little unsuccessful.

                    I asked for quotations where it would be clear that Christianity is a religion that is equal to Islam, you cited only the words about "a special attitude towards the people of the Book." This is completely natural, since There are no such quotes, moreover, you yourself quote: “I will not worship what you worship, and you will not worship what I worship. Your faith is yours, mine is mine! " (109: 4-6). This is what I wrote about: no Muslim will consider Christianity to be a true, saving religion, which is completely understandable (why then Islam).

                    “9 (30). And the Jews said:“ Uzair is the son of Allah. ”And the Christians said:“ The Messiah is the son of Allah. ”These words in their mouths are like the words of those who did not believe before. May Allah smite them! they are repulsed! "

                    Here is one faith.
                    1. 0
                      1 January 2013 09: 58
                      Continued ...
                      Yes, and the Lord Himself said: "John 14: 6 Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father as soon as through Me."

                      There is one more thing: polytheists.
                      The Quran says enough about how to deal with them. The fact is that during the discussions there were Muslims who considered Christians to be polytheists, supposedly we worship three gods, which means we must deal with us as with polytheists.

                      In my opinion, the main problem of Islam is the lack of orthodoxy, a clear rule of faith. Muslims urgently need to conduct something like their ecumenical councils with the adoption of clear and understandable oros-borders, as was done in Christianity at one time. These boundaries will clearly determine where Islam ends and heresy begins, but for now complete free thought (you adhere to the five pillars of Islam and you are Muslim according to anybody).
                      Based on the example of my experience, I want to say that the majority of Russian (or, well, CIS) Muslims are strikingly different from Muslims of the Arabic type, so to speak. The joint life of Christians and Muslims in a certain way influenced Muslims, they are softer, it is easier to talk with them and find common ground, they will consider Christians to be book people, and not polytheists, like their Arab brothers. The problem is that their Arab brothers are also Muslims (only of a different trend) and it is completely unclear which of you adheres to true Islam. This will become clear when you decide, only how you decide if Mecca is in KSA, and there the Wahhabis rule ...

                      In general, Alibek, I understand your position, it is familiar to me. I hope you understand mine. I don’t want to raise a theological debate here (the topic of the forum is not the same, and even these restrictions on the size of the text just kill ...), but if you can answer what you think about the Muslim Council and making a general decision on it.
                      1. Yarbay
                        0
                        1 January 2013 11: 20
                        Quote: kos

                        In general, Alibek, I understand your position, it is familiar to me. I hope you understand mine. I don’t want to raise a theological debate here (the topic of the forum is not the same, and even these restrictions on the size of the text just kill ...), but if you can answer what you think about the Muslim Council and making a general decision on it.

                        This is not my position, this is the position of Islam!
                        So you write that
                        Quote: kos
                        This is what I wrote about: not a single Muslim will consider Christianity to be a true, saving religion, which is completely understandable (why then Islam).
                        73 (69). Apparently, some of them have not been able to understand the situation, and some of them are missing, but I didn’t do much, but a little more!
                        And I agree that now this is not a place of dispute, but if you want, I can answer in your face with the help of the Almighty to your questions, as I can!
                        As for the Muslim Cathedral and a general solution on it, it has long existed and give fatwas general and obligatory for everyone !!

                        Quote: kos
                        What do you think about the Muslim Council and the adoption of a common decision on it.

                        Here is an example!
                        Joint Fatwa of the World Union of Islamic Scholars
                        The final document of the International Muslim Conference, held on July 4-6, 2005 in Amman (Jordan) under the motto "True Islam and its role in modern society"
                        In the name of Allah the Merciful and the Merciful! Blessing and peace to our lord Muhammad and his family! “Oh people! Fear your Lord, who made you out of one soul ... ”(Quran 4: 1).
                        In accordance with the fatwas (religious and theological conclusions) of the Supreme Imam Al-Azhar, the Mufti of Egypt, the Supreme Mufti of Oman, the Islamic Law Academy of Saudi Arabia, the Supreme Religious Council of Turkey, the Mufti and the Committee for Fatwas of Jordan, Shiite Maja (spiritual leaders) of the Ja'afarites and as well as Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani and Sheikh Yusuf al-Qardawi:
                        1. Anyone who is a follower of one of the four Sunni madhhabs (Hanafi, Malikite, Shafiite, Hanbalite), Shiite movements of Jafaria, Zayed, as well as Ibadiy and Zakhir, is considered a Muslim.
                        It is unacceptable to accuse him of unbelief, to encroach on his life, honor and property. In addition, it is forbidden to accuse adherents of asharism and those who practice true Sufism, continuing the traditions of their ancestors, in disbelief. In general, it is not permissible to classify atheists any group of Muslims who believe in Almighty Allah and His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him!) Respect the tenets of religion, without rejecting any of them.
                        2. Among the various areas of Islam, there is much in common. Adherents of the eight movements follow the basic Islamic principles, believing in the One Most High Allah, the holy Quran (the revealed Word of Allah), and our lord Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him!), The Prophet of all mankind. They also adhere to the five pillars of Islam (confession of faith, prayer, alms, fasting in the month of Ramadan, Hajj), recognize the five pillars of faith (in Allah, in His angels, in His Message, in His prophets (peace be upon them all), on Judgment Day , in predestination).
                        The discrepancies between the ulama of these directions do not affect fundamental issues, but only particular ones. Moreover, the existence of differences in the views of the ulama is a positive phenomenon.
                      2. Yarbay
                        +1
                        1 January 2013 11: 21
                        3. Possession of knowledge of Islamic movements implies the need to adhere to the fundamental methodology of theology. No one has the right to make decisions on religious issues without understanding the specifics of each of the areas of Islam. No one is allowed to engage in independent theological activities in one direction or another, without adequate training, or to proclaim the emergence of a new trend, and to publish fatwas that would take Muslims outside the rules and principles of the doctrine established by the Sharia.
                        4. The main idea of ​​the Amman message, adopted on the blessed night of Predestination in 1425 according to the Hijra and read out in the Hashemite mosque, is the admissibility of belonging to various streams and directions, recognition of their right to exist, recognition of the need for dialogue and interaction between their followers. This, in turn, implies a moderate approach, a search for mutual compromise, tolerance and condescension to each other, mercy and respect for the opinions of others.
                        5. We call for the settlement of disagreements among Muslims, the unity of their statements and positions, the consolidation of their mutual respect, the solidarity of their peoples and states, the strengthening of fraternal ties so that there is no reason for confusion and division between them.
                        Allah (praise be to Him) says: “Indeed, believers are brothers. Reconcile your brothers and fear Allah - maybe you will be merciful ”(Quran 49:10).
                        Glory be to Allah!
                      3. Cavas
                        0
                        1 January 2013 11: 23
                        Quote: Yarbay
                        Here is an example!

                        Alibek, a lot of letters in the New Year!))) hi
                        Why are you avoiding me?))
                        Or it seems to me?)))
                    2. Yarbay
                      0
                      1 January 2013 11: 24
                      Quote: kos
                      I asked for quotes where it would be clear that Christianity is an equal religion with Islam,

                      I brought them precisely, but read carefully!
                      For example, “The food of the people of Scripture is permitted to you, and your food is permitted to them. Allowed to marry you are women who are chaste from believers and women who are chaste from among those who have been given the Scripture before you ”(5: 5). Does this not mean that the people of the Scriptures are in many ways equal?
                      Quote: kos
                      Orthodox are not "Book people".

                      These are your speculations!
                      1. 0
                        6 January 2013 14: 41
                        Quote: Yarbay
                        For example, “The food of the people of Scripture is permitted to you, and your food is permitted to them. Allowed to marry you are women who are chaste from believers and women who are chaste from among those who have been given the Scripture before you ”(5: 5). Does this not mean that the people of the Scriptures are in many ways equal?

                        Alibek, I’m not asking about this. Not that Christians and Muslims "in many ways"(but not in everything) are equal. To paraphrase the question: Do you think that an Orthodox Christian (who believes in the Triune God, in incarnation, does not consider Muhammad a prophet, etc.) is a believer in true religion and will be rewarded with the same paradise as Muslims?

                        About the cathedral. If I understood correctly, it does not follow from it that the Wahhabis are not Muslims, i.e. they are recognized by the same Muslims as supporters of the so-called traditional Islam?
              2. +3
                27 December 2012 00: 51
                Quote: kos
                What does nationality have to do with it? yes at least Bashkirin. It is completely incomprehensible about what kind of contention is it? I already wrote that at the household level there should not be discord and enmity, but at the same time, a person should understand that when it comes to doctrinal truths, tolerance is not at all appropriate, moreover, it becomes a betrayal.


                we do not understand each other sad I am an internationalist, I am for freedom of speech and religion, I respect all nations, cultures and faith --- at the same time I am for brutal power as a Stalinist! tolerance?! for me it's at the level of reflexes - a flash on the right ...
                1. Yarbay
                  0
                  27 December 2012 18: 29
                  Quote: Karlsonn
                  we do not understand each other, I am an internationalist, I am for freedom of speech and religion, I respect all nations, cultures and faith --- at the same time I am for brutal power as a Stalinist! tolerance?! for me it's at the level of reflexes - a flash on the right ...

                  You are all right!
                  Our misfortune is that we are looking for everything bad in each other!
                  I once read on one forum a dispute * of a Christian * with * a Muslim *, there was a huge amount of dirt poured on each other, because both of them pulled out quotes about the bloodthirstiness of another religion and did not look for the good and the good, in principle, and lead us ours and your FAITH !!
                  I am glad that you are a person with principles that are close to me !!
                2. -1
                  1 January 2013 10: 08
                  Quote: Karlsonn
                  we do not understand each other, I am an internationalist, I am for freedom of speech and religion, I respect all nations, cultures and faith --- at the same time I am for brutal power as a Stalinist! tolerance?! for me it's at the level of reflexes - a flash on the right ...

                  I am also for freedom of speech and religion, if the Lord does not forbid a person to choose faith (albeit erroneous) at his own discretion, then who am I to forbid this?
                  The question is different, you must decide for yourself whether Islam is equal to Christianity or not (for those Christians who have read the NT, this question is not worth it at all). If you have decided for yourself, this question will transform into another: can I calmly watch how another person dies? (I'm not saying that you need to rush to every Muslim and start heated debate with him, but if he asks you, then answer he needs directly and clearly). Can I calmly watch the poison brought to my lips?

                  I even know what you will answer. wink
            2. +2
              27 December 2012 00: 48
              Quote: kos
              you are also full of pride, because judge me.


              sinful.


              Quote: kos
              There is a decision of the Council of Constantinople in 1180:
              "Anathema to Muhammad, [and his] teaching transmitted in the Quran, in which he confesses that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is not the Son of God;


              nor when I was strong in Theosophy, but I, as an Orthodox Christian, cannot say that it is righteous, the Lord will judge us.
              1. -1
                1 January 2013 10: 57
                Quote: Karlsonn
                never when I was strong in Theosophy, but as an Orthodox Christian, I can’t say what is righteous, the Lord will judge us

                where does theosophy come from? Maybe you wanted to say theology-theology?
                You, as an Orthodox Christian, must adhere to the conciliar decisions of the Church, and the Lord through the Church has long ago expressed His opinion.

                And Theosophy is a heresy expressed in the belief that since God is one, then all religions are equal / true / equally saving. By the way, many (perhaps unconsciously) adhere to this false doctrine.
    21. +3
      26 December 2012 01: 23
      Quote: hohryakov066
      No one will ever convince me that Muslims are peaceful people and Islam is the religion of the world.

      "Reason always brings us to the point where we ourselves appoint him a date" (c) Therefore, you cannot be persuaded.
      I myself am a Christian, but a little familiar with the Qur'an. Just interested in spiritual traditions. And since 1993 I like to relax in the UAE. Orthodox Muslim country. But I do not know a more peaceful and calm place on Earth. But, for example, in Tuva, one of the main religions is Buddhism. The most peaceful and humane. However, I would not advise you to walk along the streets of Kyzyl in the evening.
      Or in the 13th century, when Christians in EUROPE were conducting a crusade - well, there were some different interpretations of the scriptures among Catholics and heretics - the papal envoy commanded "Kill everyone. The Lord will know his own." well, they killed everyone. But what does Christianity and Jesus have to do with it?
      Do not confuse Quranic Islam and its historical metamorphoses.
      In the history of all Avramic religions there are many crimes against man and humanity. Islam is no exception.
      1. 0
        26 December 2012 02: 54
        ikrut

        arguing is useless. Alas.
      2. -1
        26 December 2012 23: 54
        Quote: ikrut
        Or in the 13th century, when Christians in EUROPE were conducting a crusade - well, there were some different interpretations of the scriptures among Catholics and heretics - the papal envoy commanded "Kill everyone. The Lord will know his own." well, they killed everyone. But what does Christianity and Jesus have to do with it?

        Indeed, there are many examples in history of a peculiar interpretation of creeds, but it is one thing to try to find calls to violence in the words of Christ (try), and it is quite another to read the Qur'an, where there are a lot of such calls (some verses were given above). In addition, the example of the Savior’s life itself and what example gives Muhammad to Muslims. Hadith read.

        Here's an example:

        Amr ibn Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said: "One man came to the Prophet and asked:" What is Islam? " The Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: “To entrust your heart to Allah and that Muslims be safe from your tongue and hands.” He asked: "And which of the manifestations of Islam is the best?" The prophet answered: "Faith." He asked: "What is faith?" The Prophet replied: "Believe in Allah, in His angels, in His books, in His messengers and believe in the resurrection after death." He asked: "And what is the best manifestation of faith?" The Prophet said, "Hijra." He asked: "What is hijra?" The prophet replied: "Leave the bad." He asked: "What is the best hijra?" The Prophet said: "Jihad." He asked: “What is jihad?” The Prophet said: "To fight with kafirs." He asked: "What is the best jihad?" The Prophet replied: "Jihad of the one whose horse was wounded and shed blood." (Ahmad, Baihaki)

        Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said that he had heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be said, “I will certainly drive the Jews and Christians out of the Arabian Peninsula and I will not leave anyone except Muslims” . (Muslim)

        In addition, what you consider the Quran, in fact, is only a transfer of meanings, but not the Quran itself. The Quran can only be in Arabic! And interestingly, the Russian translation is somewhat milder than the original Arabic text.

        And of course, Islam is not an Abrahamic religion. On the same basis, the worship of the Moabites to one god, Hamos, can also be called the "Abrahamic" religion (God forgive me). And the Amalekites were also the descendants of Abraham, but the worst enemies of the chosen people. Read the Old Testament.

        But to argue, really, alas, is useless, especially with people who have a very conditional idea of ​​their faith. Unfortunately.

        Here I advise http://forum-slovo.ru/index.php?board=24.0
        the forum where I have been talking with Muslims for a long time.
        1. 0
          27 December 2012 01: 46

          why so shameful?
  2. Shuhrat turani
    +7
    25 December 2012 08: 55
    the news is certainly sad, but the answer to Wahhabism in Tatarstan should be adequate, but tough ... But something I'm not sure that Moscow will be able to respond correctly to the challenges ...


    ON THE SITE- We tighten the belts, tie ourselves to the mast - now a nationalist storm will begin, the meaning of the komenots is easy to guess: "We fed the Tatars for 500 years, but they still" look into the forest "," but remember in the "N-th" years we were driven out of Kazan " and they will quote from a Nazi website about the massacres of "netatars" on the streets of Kazan, besides, someone will advise you to expel the Tatars from everywhere. wherever possible ....

    Well, that's it ... we are waiting for the cons and angry comments.
    1. lechatormosis
      +8
      25 December 2012 08: 59
      DANGEROUS GAMES ARE TALKED BY NATIONALISTS IN TATARSTAN.
      The scenario is exactly the same as in SYRIA.
      I hope that the intelligence services will still be able to shoot a large part of the mercenaries SQUARE in TATARSTAN and WAITING FOR ITS HOUR X.
      1. Shuhrat turani
        +9
        25 December 2012 09: 04
        Or like in Chechnya, probably. Now the underground gang, under the guise of a "national liberation" movement, is trying to recruit as many people from the local population as possible (for a sign) ... And the Vainakhs and Arabs will go to war ...

        I am waiting for an adequate reaction from Moscow, and the realization that the "mass character" of the separatists is an empty propaganda move ...
      2. - = ALEX = -
        -3
        25 December 2012 10: 56
        And if these ideas are popular among the masses and they are more and more radicalized? Shoot everyone?
        1. Lech e-mine
          +2
          25 December 2012 16: 35
          NO Nobel Peace Prize to hand them am
        2. +1
          25 December 2012 17: 12
          It’s necessary to shoot the popularizers. And faster.
        3. YuDDP
          0
          25 December 2012 21: 30
          it’s possible for everyone, otherwise we’ll miss and much more blood will be
          but probably only the instigators are enough
          1. - = ALEX = -
            0
            26 December 2012 17: 40
            So don't be trifling, arrange a "decimation" of the entire population, and they will love you very much for your order ..
      3. SSR
        +3
        25 December 2012 11: 21
        Quote: lehatormoz
        The scenario is exactly the same as in SYRIA.

        Yes, here on the forum there was already information that if Russia pursues an independent financial policy, the West will begin to act according to the Libyan-Syrian scenario.
        and in general, they prepared the soil and the seeds germinate ...
        I hope ours have a ready-made supply of herbicides that quickly destroy this shelupon ... but the volumes are growing (((
        along the way there are people who give TSU as Mudaltsova but with the task of Wahhabism.
        1. Serge
          +2
          25 December 2012 12: 52
          Tatarstan has close ties with the UAE, they have never hidden it.
      4. +10
        25 December 2012 11: 35
        lechatormosis,
        Slowly they’ll shoot Leha! Yes, it’s only mainly Moscow specialists who do this (in the federal sense) And among the Tatar specialists there are those who even help the militants, from there this arrogance and impunity! Yes, and how to determine where the real, seasoned, finished Islamist is, and where is the lost romantic. Minikhanov himself is more than ... t than really doing something for stability in the republic, and his tricks with the Balts and Arabs allow him to doubt his loyalty to the existing Russian government.
      5. vyatom
        +2
        25 December 2012 12: 05
        I think the Tatar people themselves understand the destructiveness of these "currents". They will not bring anything good. Russians and Tatars have been living together for many years, and together they solve common problems.
        1. +4
          25 December 2012 13: 01
          vyatom,
          His,
          People understand that, but not everything depends on him!
          In my opinion, all the blame for this incitement of nationalism lies with the "president" Minikhanov. This is, mind you, the only republic where the head did not give up the "presidency"!
          1. 0
            26 December 2012 00: 29
            Quote: sergo0000
            Note this is the only republic where the head did not give up the "presidency"!

            In my opinion, our Khamitov is also the president.
        2. +5
          25 December 2012 14: 09
          If in the spring on the garden bed in time to remove the weed growth, then you can get by with a chopper. But when you start timely weeding, a hoe is already needed, while the effort will go away and at the same time you can destroy the necessary plants. But people are not plants, and Russia is not a garden. Therefore, now a chopper needs to work and work tirelessly. am
        3. - = ALEX = -
          0
          26 December 2012 00: 11
          This Tatars rally is the answer to the Russian march ..
      6. Serge
        +3
        25 December 2012 12: 49
        All nationalists are the same
      7. +3
        25 December 2012 21: 22
        Alexey, there will be a team - let's go and work. In Tatarstan, it means in Tatarstan. But the fact that they are waiting in the wings and signed a sentence is a fact. It's a question of time...
    2. His
      +3
      25 December 2012 11: 50
      It is strange that the Tatars with their education and secular culture are being led on occasion. On the contrary, in order to save the Tatars, it is just that big brother. Russians always help everyone. I think that many Chechens secretly thank us for cleansing their land
    3. 0
      25 December 2012 17: 11
      Mmm ... well, nobody minuses you. Poking around in the past is only hatred, in history everyone managed to fight with everyone, and if NOW strikes revenge, then chaos will come ... controlled from across the ocean.
  3. MGVM
    +4
    25 December 2012 08: 56
    Vaccinate the virus with Alpha, GRU, Pennant.
    1. Serge
      +2
      25 December 2012 12: 53
      Vaccination in the Caucasus does not work well, I do not think that it will be better in Tatarstan
    2. +4
      25 December 2012 13: 03
      Vaccination will not help here: only a surgical operation to excise an incipient tumor. The smaller it is this tumor now, the more painless it will cost for the whole organism as a whole. If you miss time, it will be very painful and there will be a lot of blood.
  4. +10
    25 December 2012 09: 26
    The manifestation of banditry needs to be dealt with severely.
    Crush reptiles in the bud !!! Do not allow the infection to spread.
    The lie is that the separatists give out their crazy ideas as the idea of ​​their people, but it is not!

    It is important that the media do not disseminate the ideas of perverts such as Abdullah, but publicly express their contempt for them clearly and unequivocally. It is important!

    Understand the situation correctly for the religion of Muslims Abdullah and his jackals have no relation whatsoever.
  5. +6
    25 December 2012 09: 33
    I remember in 2009 engaged in mounted electrics in one of Moscow's shopping centers. There was a team of finishers from Tatarstan. So, their team leader, unobtrusively, was engaged in the propaganda of nationalist ideas and the recruitment of the poorly educated. It looks like another Chechnya has been prepared for us. The only question is when will it blaze?
    1. vyatom
      0
      25 December 2012 12: 08
      In the 30s, Germany went on a nationalistic path. And how it ended: millions of dead Germans, a ruined country, and traditionally torn away German territories in favor of the victors.
    2. Serge
      +4
      25 December 2012 13: 05
      30.11.2005

      The village of Middle Yeluzan is turning into a hotbed of Wahhabism ...
      Around the largest Tatar village in Europe, Middle Yeluzan, a scandal erupts. Mufti of the Penza region Abbas Hazrat Bibarsov claims that local youth have already gone to Wahhabis. Seven mosques were built in a 10-thousand-strong village, 800 arms barrels were officially registered, oil products were stolen from pipelines, and recently authorities searched a local madrassa, which, in their opinion, exists illegally, and seized suspicious literature. The prosecutor’s office is sounding the alarm and warning that the situation in the village, nicknamed the Northern Mecca, is getting out of control.
  6. +5
    25 December 2012 09: 36
    American total democracy is being replaced by total Islamic extremism. Although, the second is a continuation of the first, financial elites have found a new tool to keep the world in turmoil. If it did not work out with democratization, then with Islamic extremism - this option is not a losing one. There is a real enemy - that means you need more money for the military, you can eavesdrop and spy on everyone (all for the safety of beloved fellow citizens :-)). The safety of the nation comes first, and the fact that one cannot even go to the toilet incognito is inconvenient of course, but it’s also for safety. Shock drones in Pakistan, which keep ordinary people at bay and shoot indiscriminately, annoyingly but again for security reasons. Rave. And most importantly, giving money to these extremists in Tihar, they will always be in abundance. Moreover, having invested in the heads of the sheikhs the idea of ​​the Great Caliphate, you don’t need to give money, they themselves will give. Total savings and benefits. This is not democracy to you to sow, democracy is now expensive. And the fact that sooner or later it will be necessary to apply harsh measures against these radical scumbags, and these are the victims, nobody cares. No wonder there is an expression - the countries of the 3rd world. Yes, and the nuclear weapons argument is strong, for the United States it is clearly not a problem to apply it in the Middle East when everything gets out of control.
    1. vyatom
      0
      25 December 2012 12: 09
      Here also Berezovsky will be connected - the great friend of any nationalists.
  7. go_by
    +7
    25 December 2012 09: 38
    Whether the public likes it or not, from a Christian point of view, Islam is a sect. With all that it implies. There is no "traditional Islam". Traditional Islam is unbelief in the Muslim world. Most likely, political tolerance will lead to the fact that not only Chechnya will have to be flooded with money. Tatarstan also wants to have its own free skyscrapers and golden toilet bowls.
  8. +8
    25 December 2012 09: 43
    Sparks are extinguished before a fire, and not when it burns.
    Intelligence agencies can not yawn. Media in this situation must be skillfully used. In general, you need to work!
  9. Yarbay
    +4
    25 December 2012 09: 44
    Quote: go_by
    There is no "traditional Islam". Traditional Islam is unbelief in the Muslim world.

    You speak like an illiterate Wahhabi !!
    Unbelief is precisely the ideas of al-Wahhab!
    1. go_by
      +2
      25 December 2012 10: 11
      You are talking nonsense. Do you want, in simple terms, to eat a fish and sit on a Christmas tree. Professing a senseless set of rules on the one hand, and being a modern open-minded person on the other. Will not work. We'll have to abandon civilization or fix something in our "conservatory." Throw you your sect. May you have order in your head.
      1. Siberian
        -2
        25 December 2012 13: 13
        Quote: go_by
        You are talking nonsense. Do you want, in simple terms, to eat a fish and sit on a Christmas tree. Professing a senseless set of rules on the one hand, and being a modern open-minded person on the other. Will not work. We'll have to abandon civilization or fix something in our "conservatory." Throw you your sect. May you have order in your head.


        A meaningless set of rules? Is this traditional Islam? Unbelief is the West, with its consumption mania, it’s all that destroys a person from within — liberalism. pornography, prostitution, drug addiction, religious nihilism ... as you know, a religious nihilist, your stomach, cars, clothes are important. after your death (God forbid you many years of life) you will not leave anything, because the descendants will forget about you in the next generation ... You are a Westerner who has exchanged the pure faith of ancestors (be it Christianity, or traditional Islam) for clothes. on pornography ... You cannot teach children to build if your soul is empty, and faith has long left your soul ... This is your own business, and I do not blame you ... But do not meddle in someone else's faith with your emptiness in your soul .. .
        1. go_by
          +3
          25 December 2012 15: 41
          You are somehow strange. You talk to yourself.
          That is the problem of the Russians, that many have been brainwashed. What faith is important to you? Ready to respect anyone? And the blue ones? And burry? Everything is cute for you.
      2. Yarbay
        0
        25 December 2012 14: 46
        Quote: go_by
        Will not work.

        Do not you teach me Islam!
        Sheikhs and scholars from all over the world came to my great-grandfather to study Islam and learn answers to questions!
        Quote: go_by
        Let there be order in your head.

        I have an order in my head, you should worry about yours!
        1. go_by
          +4
          25 December 2012 15: 33
          SCIENTISTS FROM AROUND THE WORLD? Full nonsense to carry. What is clever for you is zero for the rest of the world.
          1. 0
            25 December 2012 18: 19
            go_by

            Quote: go_by
            What is clever for you is zero for the rest of the world.


            (sighing sadly, I open the transcript lists)

            Dear, why are you so awesome in the attack? Insulting a person, being rude, violating the rules of the resource? request
      3. 0
        25 December 2012 15: 08
        Quote: go_by
        To profess a meaningless set of rules on the one hand, and to be a modern person of broad views on the other.

        I don’t know how dear Alibek is, but I personally don’t want to be a "modern person of broad views." I hate cosmopolitanism and tolerance.
        I want to be the grandson of my grandfathers.
        And if Muslims want the same, then, I think, there will be much less problems in mutual understanding.
        1. go_by
          0
          25 December 2012 15: 43
          Alibek called, etit ...
          1. 0
            25 December 2012 18: 32
            No, go_by, I joined your discussion with Alibek.
            Alibek is a name, you can name it, not call it.
            1. Yarbay
              +1
              26 December 2012 21: 40
              Quote: Flood
              Alibek is a name, you can name it, not call it.

              I advise you to read this article !!
              I think a lot is wrong with you and there are people who help obscurantists !!

              http://vesti.az/news/141813/
        2. Yarbay
          +2
          26 December 2012 19: 46
          Quote: Flood
          I don’t know how dear Alibek is, but I personally don’t want to be a "modern broad-minded person"

          I am a man of conservative views, moreover, I know what I believe in and will never stumble !!
          Quote: Flood
          I want to be the grandson of my grandfathers.

          Nothing can be more beautiful than this desire!

          Quote: Flood
          And if Muslims want the same, then, I think, there will be much less problems in mutual understanding.

          Dear Vladimir, the trouble is that people are trying to teach Islam, those who studied for six months in Saudi Arabia and consider themselves sheikhs !!
          My great-grandfather wrote more than a hundred books about Islam, Islamic jurisprudence, but forbade himself to be called a sheikh !!
          Now 19-year-old youths who do not even know the multiplication tables require calling themselves sheikhs and trying to teach obscurantism! The trouble is that the older ones do not try to educate the younger ones as before !!
          Young (not all) are in principle ready to fight and listen to those who justify their instincts !!
      4. +1
        25 December 2012 18: 15
        go_by

        Quote: go_by
        You are talking nonsense.


        Quote: go_by
        To profess a meaningless set of rules on the one hand,



        Quote: go_by
        Throw you your sect. Let there be order in your head.


        Reread the rules of conduct on the site!
    2. 12061973
      +1
      25 December 2012 18: 51
      competent wahab is not serious.
      1. Yarbay
        +3
        26 December 2012 19: 49
        Quote: 12061973
        competent wahab is not serious.

        Absolutely right!!
        Wahhab's followers must be destroyed !!!
  10. +12
    25 December 2012 09: 48
    He always believed that Power is the enemy of the people. And in the Russian Federation all Power, all bureaucratic horde-parasites.
    But the fact of a direct threat to life for the head of state is a bust. For such things it is already necessary to punish the law. As well as for similar events in the style of rebel terrorists. One misfortune, a bureaucratic pack is not able to withstand this, for too many have been rolled off for them to close their eyes to what is happening. And only when blood is shed, when peaceful people, innocent people die, a shout from Moscow will follow, then someone will stir, someone will blather and indicate opposition. Like, you don’t need to incite ethnic and religious hatred and all types at the household level, and in general people themselves were cut or hit. And we sort of figure it out.
    To solve the problem, two simple things are needed - the will of the Authority and strict adherence to the law. But that will not happen. For the authorities do not care about the people. so that people will be left alone with Wahhabis, bandits, and robbers. Add here the Ministry of Internal Affairs, corrupt from head to foot, where commerce is at the forefront - and it will be really fun.
    The people (no matter what nationality) are always alone with the threat. They will be imprisoned for power resistance, robbed and killed for timid bleating.
    And now the question is - who poses a great threat to the people - the United States, NATO, China, or the one who everyone in the street can rob, kill, throw without charge and trial in jail, undermine, deprive the house and money?
    The country's army must be strong and powerful is a fact. But what is the use of this for people who are defenseless against an internal enemy?
    Dilemma...
    1. iulai
      +1
      25 December 2012 11: 52
      too much and boring. special services need to quietly eliminate the leaders, and business then. need a team -FAS! and who will give the command?
      1. His
        +3
        25 December 2012 11: 57
        Financing plays a role in everything. Defeat financial support and you will defeat the enemy
    2. vyatom
      +1
      25 December 2012 12: 13
      Plus. In our country, we already feel like poor relatives. A step to the left, a step to the right - everyone will be taken away, beaten, robbed and you are completely powerless before the arbitrariness of the internal enemy, and you must pay for everything.
  11. +3
    25 December 2012 10: 03
    Quote: Shuhrat Turani
    the news, of course, is sad, but the response to Wahhabism in Tatarstan should be adequate, but tough ... But I’m not sure that Moscow will be able to respond correctly to the challenges ... AND ON THE SITE - We tighten our belts, tie ourselves to the mast - now it will start a nationalist storm, the meaning of the komenots is easy to guess: "We fed the Tatars for 500 years, but they still" look into the forest "," and remember, in the "Ns" we were expelled from Kazan "and they will quote from the Nazi website about the massacres" netatars "on the streets of Kazan, besides, someone will advise you to drive out the Tatars from everywhere. from wherever you can .... Well, everything ... we are waiting for cons and angry comments.

    Well, while you are clearly bending the stick and stooping. If the trolls do not run, then nothing described by you on this forum will be.
  12. Mihailo
    +6
    25 December 2012 10: 14
    Where are they going ??????????? And where are the authorities looking, allowing such a disgrace !!!!
  13. +5
    25 December 2012 10: 28
    That's generally not clear. If they are bad, then ban their activities and hold activists accountable. As I understand it, the threat of murder is also a criminal offense, to put this ideological one alone and let him preach there.
    1. +5
      25 December 2012 11: 49
      FunkschNNX,
      Usually, these statements are made on camera in a clown outfit with a fake beard! One of them I tried to do without a beard last summer, now I am having fun with the gurus in heaven! winked
      Therefore, now they do not run the risk of being so substituted. Indeed, by nature, these newly-minted leaders, cowardly jackals, notorious from childhood, are!
      Therefore, they are not so easy to catch!
    2. go_by
      +3
      25 December 2012 12: 14
      "Radical Islam" in a tolerant country is a very good business. And as Marx used to say, there is no such crime that businessmen will not commit for the sake of 300 percent of the profit. And here is money and territory ... Only such a freebie will refuse
  14. MG42
    +9
    25 December 2012 10: 30
    Tatarstan again marked the rally with black banners, and the new leader of the local Wahhabis promised to kill Russian President Vladimir Putin. In addition, Kazan announced the need to erect a monument to Khan Ulu-Mohammed Khan (Ulug Mohammed), the founder of the Kazan Khanate, who made a number of devastating campaigns on the Russian lands.

    This is some kind of glum, is the official authorities really turning a blind eye to something like this, Someone allowed them to take this action from the local administration, if the central government turns a blind eye, it will show weakness, as it is already known in history.
    1. +4
      25 December 2012 11: 30
      Quote: MG42
      This is some kind of glum, is the official authorities really turning a blind eye to something like this, Someone allowed them to take this action from the local administration, if the central government turns a blind eye, it will show weakness, as it is already known in history.

      It looks like only blue buckets, our government has learned to "adequately" react.
  15. +3
    25 December 2012 10: 46
    I don’t understand the inaction of our government! Who allowed the rally, where the gallant police, why didn’t they stop them in the most severe way? After all, if this infection is not crushed in conception, then later rivers of blood will have to be poured. Examples - the sea! If the local government does not cope, then take your own, but adequate measures to prevent the country from sliding into a new war.
    Aw, Moscow, the Kremlin !!! There is a toilet, it has Wahhabis. To water who will be and when ???
    1. - = ALEX = -
      +7
      25 December 2012 11: 03
      Because the Tatars also serve in the police. And often they also share these views. Just for them the Tatars are closer than the Russians.
      1. vyatom
        +3
        25 December 2012 12: 15
        I think these policemen should not forget that many Tatars also live in Russia.
        Do not do with others as you do not want to do with you.
      2. +2
        25 December 2012 17: 33
        I don’t know about the Tatars, but many Asian and Caucasian peoples have a clan mentality. According to the principle - "friends" can do anything, any filth, any crime if it is not against "friends".
    2. Yarbay
      +1
      27 December 2012 17: 49
      Quote: IRBIS
      I don’t understand the inaction of our government! Who allowed the rally, where the gallant police, why didn’t they stop them in the most severe way? After all, if this infection is not crushed in conception, then later rivers of blood will have to be poured. Examples - the sea! If the local government does not cope, then take your own, but adequate measures to prevent the country from sliding into a new war.
      Aw, Moscow, the Kremlin !!! There is a toilet, it has Wahhabis. Watering who will be and when ??

      This is generally nonsense !!!
      this is not dancing boys !!
      So they feel their strength if they do so, if they are not pressed in a short time, then there will be another one!
      I am surprised by the attitude of the public, why are they silent! ??
  16. +7
    25 December 2012 11: 04
    There is a well-known popular expression characterizing Russians - they harness for a long time, but they drive fast. However, this "slowness" is not always good. In the context of rapidly developing religious extremism, actively sponsored by the West and the Arab monarchies, the fruits of which and, most importantly, the OBJECTIVE is in plain sight (Libya, now Syria), this "slowness" is very dangerous - it can happen that there will be NOTHING TO TIGHTEN! We need a quick and tough reaction, regardless of faces, in order to crush this extremist infection in the bud!
    1. - = ALEX = -
      +4
      25 December 2012 11: 07
      And what idea or fair idiology can the authorities offer for the Tatars? Russian world?

      That’s why they see justice in Islam, and against the backdrop of corrupt authorities, the protest electorate is solidifying on the basis of radical Islam and its national heroes of the past.
    2. His
      +1
      25 December 2012 12: 50
      There are all the leaders of the Tatars. The root of the evil is nationalism, which easily harnesses but quickly gets out of control of the harnesser
  17. +3
    25 December 2012 11: 35
    If there is no reaction from the local law enforcement authorities, the federal center should react. With a "sweep" of the authorities and security of all those who do not do their job (without the right to return).
    ________________________
    The names are known, the goals of the "spirits" are announced ... where is the reaction of the center? Lyaya ... this is what most of all outrages me!
  18. +1
    25 December 2012 11: 39
    And what idea or fair idiology can the authorities offer for the Tatars? Russian world?

    That’s why they see justice in Islam, and against the backdrop of corrupt authorities, the protest electorate is solidifying on the basis of radical Islam and its national heroes of the past.
    You're right! We see the same thing in Ukraine. Understandably "zapadentsy", but in the East of Ukraine the nationalist "Svoboda" began to receive votes from the population!
    1. - = ALEX = -
      +1
      25 December 2012 12: 06
      This is a global trend that only confirms that cosmopolitanism and internationalism crashed.

      And if nationalism does not acquire extreme (extremist) forms, it does not bring anything bad. That is, if he is not directed against other peoples, but is aimed at protecting and developing his own.

      "At its core, nationalism preaches loyalty and devotion to its nation, political independence and work for the benefit of its own people, cultural and spiritual growth, the unification of national identity for the practical protection of the living conditions of the nation, its territory of residence, economic resources and spiritual values. It is based on national a feeling that is akin to patriotism. This ideology seeks to unite different sectors of society, regardless of opposing class interests. It has proved to be able to mobilize the population for common political goals.

      Nationalism emphasizes the differences, color and individuality of nations. These distinctive features are cultural and ethnic in nature. National identity contributes to the identification of existing foreign inclusions in culture and the rational analysis of the prospects for further borrowing from other cultures for the benefit of their nation. "
    2. His
      -1
      25 December 2012 14: 49
      The idea of ​​a sovereign state is Putin’s idea now
  19. 0
    25 December 2012 11: 46
    I do not support the idea expressed above that all Islam is only radical. As Wasserman says: "There is no need to look for a simple wrong way out of a difficult situation." It is, of course, a matter of the people and interests of other countries.
    People: as soon as the state ceases to engage in "EDUCATION" of its own people, especially focusing on young people, this niche is immediately occupied by others: pop culture, drugs, alcohol, sects (especially radical ones), after which we invariably see the dawn of youth radicalism in all spheres life! A holy place is never empty, young people cannot decide their own destiny without a guiding hand!
    The interests of other countries: it is very, very, very beneficial for many to create instability on the southern borders of Russia, with further rolling into chaos! Only special services, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the FSB will help here. There is absolutely no one to ceremony there.
    1. His
      0
      25 December 2012 12: 51
      Do you think Jehovah's Witnesses is a good faith?
      1. 0
        25 December 2012 13: 07
        Sorry, I didn’t understand why you got that I think so?
        1. His
          +1
          25 December 2012 14: 51
          The root is that young people study religion. Individual people do not decide anything. And Islam is now on the rise, and throughout its history it has been radical
  20. USNik
    +4
    25 December 2012 11: 49
    It is noteworthy that, judging by the photo of the run, all radical Tatarstan people drive exclusively on VAZs ... Muslim combat vehicle bully
    1. MG42
      +4
      25 December 2012 12: 15
      It is vases that are most used for terrorist attacks in the Caucasus.
      1. His
        0
        25 December 2012 12: 51
        The most stolen car in Russia
  21. +5
    25 December 2012 11: 50
    Even after the first motor rally, El Murid wrote that the indigenous population of Tatarstan opposed Salafism (Wahhabism) and asked the security forces to stop these antics. But the government assured "everything is under control." It turns out that the Wahhabis are under the control of the government.
  22. iulai
    +4
    25 December 2012 11: 55
    eliminate the leaders! I want to tell the smart thing to the president - it’s better a year earlier than a week later !!! I don’t know if he will hear, probably not, sorry.
    1. His
      +1
      25 December 2012 12: 53
      First we must rein in separatism in a single territory. Wahhabism is a consequence, as in Chechnya in the 90s.
  23. +3
    25 December 2012 12: 26
    The slaughter in Chechnya was beneficial for some, who received material income, who earned political points. Also in Dagestan, so they want in Tatarstan. And ordinary people, Tatars and Russians will suffer.
    WHO is cooking a rainy day?
  24. +3
    25 December 2012 12: 35
    [Quote]in Bashkiria, there was never a thought about installing a monument to Chinghiz Khan, read the story. the Bashkirs fought against the Mogulotars, but lost the war, like everyone else. [/ Quote]
    I confirm. Did not have. And the Bashkirs really lost that war. But the conversation is not about nationality. Relations between Tatars and Bashkirs are strained, but it is Islam that unites them. And combined. Moreover, Islam is radical, carefully cultivated on the Arabian Peninsula. There are not only Tatars and Bashkirs there. There are our "friends" - guest workers from Central Asia, there are Azeris, there are Arabians, and the converted Slavs, Mordovians, Chuvashs. And it is still unknown who is worse. And our "woodpeckers" in the federal and regional leadership have understood that this gin cannot be joked or come to an agreement. He will devour the country and devour them, and the children and grandchildren will have no future.
  25. +2
    25 December 2012 12: 35
    Wahhabis were supposed to be on the list of banned, terrorist organizations immediately after the events in Dagestan, in 2000. Why didn’t this happen? Probably, not only Themis was blindfolded, but also the republican security officials. The story of separatism and nationalism generated within the power and power structures of the republics of the former USSR at the beginning of the 90, apparently did not teach the federal authorities anything.
    1. His
      0
      25 December 2012 12: 53
      It’s not easier in Crimea
    2. 0
      26 December 2012 19: 07
      VadimSt, you can't do this! There are concepts of diplomatic and political correctness of relations in the world: Wahhabism is one of the official currents of Islam, as well as the state religion of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. This is NOT a sect, as is commonly believed! This is not an organization like Hizbut-Tahrir, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. It is an internationally recognized religion. Like Orthodoxy in general Christianity. Do you understand? And no one will ever agree to automatically recognize a Wahhabite as an enemy of the people. Let me give you an example. Imagine an ordinary carpenter's ax: you can use it to build a house, or you can use it as a weapon to kill a person. It's the same here. IMHO.
  26. satellite
    +7
    25 December 2012 12: 54
    As the Russians arrange the "Russian run" (and the purpose of the run is somehow to unite the youth, otherwise they get drunk), a whole bus of riot police arrives, and as the Wahhabis drive around the streets with flags calling for unification into the Caucasian caliphate, so no one will stick out their faces. this power consists entirely of cowards and hypocrites who can do nothing but crush the Russians. If they cannot protect us, then give us weapons.
  27. +6
    25 December 2012 13: 04
    Hard understanding is given, hard.
    And where is Islam - as a religion?
    Run with black flags - stock. Paid share. Registered share. Registered topics - in which everything is under control. Which paid.
    The central government ... is having fun ... with the acclamation "... laws of Dima Yakovlev ...", instead of seriously, like a man, in the teeth to give ... to the overwhelmed senators. Or at least ... a member of this ".. Magnitsky .." put.
    But the local authorities have fun ... by "controlling" ... everything and everyone.
    Some are rich (already) wooden Pinocchio.
    Others - only strive to become - rich wooden.
    ...
    And they sell - "wooden jackets" for the people.
    Do you think they are interested in it - are you an Islamist, Shinto, Scientologist or Christian?
    The main thing - that a specific person - could be fooled, fooled, forced to perform, well, for nothing he did not need, actions.
    ...
    Such a normal situation is when the central figures of Islam in Kazan are removed. Muslims themselves are cleaning.
    Is this normal?
    And where is the ummah? Why are they still not publicly shown - killers, performers, financiers / customers?
    ..
    Well, there will be power - from top to bottom - neither mooing, nor calving - well, they will ruin Russia to the very end. To the borders of cities and villages.
    And then certainly - no monument ---- ANYONE --- will not be put.
    ...
    Nauseous from such a government.
    Sick of such a story.
    Sick of juggling.
    From such a life - sick.
    1. +1
      25 December 2012 13: 41
      The Wakhabis in Kazan, with untied banners, staged another parade. They demonstrated their solidarity and impunity for the City and the World. And our government, once again showed its helplessness. Our government can hang promising rattles on the people's ears from high stands. the security of Russia, the REGULAR action of the fascists in skullcaps cannot. And I, because I know what happened under these black banners in Chechnya, Nord-Ost and you never know where. And I also want to add that this action is not the last, sadly ... ...
    2. Yarbay
      +1
      27 December 2012 17: 51
      Quote: Igarr
      Hard understanding is given, hard.
      And where is Islam - as a religion?
      Run with black flags - stock. Paid share. Registered share. Registered topics - in which everything is under control. Which paid.
      I agree with you in many respects, but I think that this is not a simple action !!
      It is necessary to crush them, definitely and hard !!
  28. +5
    25 December 2012 13: 11
    A new rally with black banners was held in Tatarstan.

    Stop the first car with a land mine (stop the convoy), the last of the RPGs, suppress the rest with machine gun and machine gun fire with the support of snipers for 1,5 minutes. The result - the backbone of Wahhabism in Tatarstan is destroyed. fellow

    Ehhh, I was dreaming ... I forgot that our state is tolerant and legal ... winked
    1. +1
      25 December 2012 13: 35
      Quote: TUNISIA
      The result - the backbone of Wahhabism in Tatarstan is destroyed.


      This is unlikely ... Those who are the backbone and the leadership - they then do not participate in this race. They are sitting in quiet cabinets, in easy chairs. There are no landmines and RPGs needed ... or rather, not only them. It would be nice for an inconspicuous man in a gray suit who has a PM with a blanket under the floor, and in those reception rooms ...
      1. +2
        25 December 2012 13: 47
        Well, then it goes without saying that the operation will continue in the form of targeted events "according to the list." How can we do without it? There, both PB and VAL with VSS can be used ... and it's not a sin to work out with a knife bully
    2. +3
      25 December 2012 13: 42
      Quote: TUNISIA
      Stop the first car with a land mine (stop the convoy), the last of the RPGs

      Great idea! Still not bad neatly napalm, the current so as not to catch the neighboring ...
      Better, it's easier to hang on each beacon. and then go to each quiet home with one specific question "Well, what a kid, did you jump?"
      I think then the stock will noticeably decrease.
  29. Mr. Truth
    +2
    25 December 2012 13: 38
    Islam is moving towards marginalization. By the way, few Muslims know the exact origin of their religion. History, Truth and the Quran are absolutely incompatible things. For example, Hub Alla, one of the gods of the pagan pantheon, the god of the moon and sky. portrayed next to the moon and star. He was long before the advent of Islam. He was also worshiped in the kaaba. By the way, Hub Alla, in tune with Baal / Baal / Balu, also a god who is now considered a demon, he made a massive sacrifice of an offering. There are no accidents.
    1. His
      0
      25 December 2012 14: 56
      The main thing in Islam is jihad and it is cultivated and idealized among the fighting youth. YouTube is clogged with similar bloody acts under Arabic chant
  30. atomic
    0
    25 December 2012 13: 41
    Eh Rusichi will respond to us 282 more article. Try to write on the T-shirt "Russia for the Russians" -time, and then marches with flags, the president wet, please.
    Putin is either a strategist, or a coward, or an enemy. Sometimes I tend to the first, not when to the second and increasingly to the third.
  31. +2
    25 December 2012 14: 29
    It seems to me that it will blaze there very soon. If such actions take place, most likely the population is not against it, the result? Capture of Kazan after 700 years, hello? Only now the country is not the army that fought in the 90s in Chechnya .... maybe better, maybe worse .. time will tell. Grozny was also a beautiful city before the war, but then there were only ruins ...
  32. Dendi
    0
    25 December 2012 14: 34
    It's not for us to judge someone else's religion, I myself live in a lot of national countries, and believe me Islam can be different. It's just that new trends are very popular now, where most of the youth are joining. They are being taught false concepts there. Islam is a huge force that unites people! We must fight not with him, but with poverty, illiteracy and hopelessness of life. if these conditions are met vryatli someone will want to turn into themselves into cannon fodder in the war of "pure Muslims" with the regime.
    1. His
      0
      25 December 2012 14: 57
      Qatar is the poorest country?
  33. -3
    25 December 2012 14: 43
    Tatars do everything right.
    We don’t care about our Faith. We dance in the temples, pull out paganism for some reason. And this is the field for the activity of Islam.
    1. pag-uralmir
      +1
      25 December 2012 17: 14
      What paganism are you talking about? The history of Russian people has more than 30000 years, (Arkaim, the Great Trans-Volga Wall), are you interested in the history of your people? Before Cyril and Methodius, the Russians had 49 letters and sounds in the alphabet, which generally tells you what.
      1. -1
        27 December 2012 18: 26
        Quote: pag-uralmir
        The history of Russian people has more than 30000 years

        I have nothing against it, but the Russian Empire, which includes hundreds of nationalities, vast territories, is based on the basis of Orthodoxy.
        Do not return to us in the tribal system of statehood?
    2. +1
      25 December 2012 19: 39
      Radio operator, please explain what you mean by the phrase "doing the right thing". What is right"? Killing people? Is it a jihad? Are they imposing their ideology under the guise of true Islam? What is happening now in many regions, not only of the country, but also of the world, can be called "Islamic Nazism." Hitler once also thought that there is no purer race than the Aryan. These bastards also think: there is no true faith, except for the one that belongs to them. And under these slogans they are ready to KILL. This is Fascism, this is a CHALLENGE to the entire normal civilized world community. They are moral monsters, they are fascists. They don't want to live (this is the main phrase bully) normally together with everyone, they do not want to work, they need easy earnings in the form of huge sums for the efforts not made to this, they think that they are the top of society, and everyone else is the second, third class, which must be destroyed. Doesn't this look like anything? So what is "correct" in your statement?
      1. 0
        27 December 2012 18: 20
        Quote: TUNISIA
        Radio operator, please explain what you mean by the phrase "doing the right thing". What is right"? Killing people? Is it a jihad?

        Of course, all these atrocities do wrong.
        The meaning is different. We do not respect ourselves, but what to demand from others when there is no consent in us.
        The biggest problem is to regain your identity.
        Bring it back - roll the mountains, no - eat ourselves from the inside, which has been happening for 50 years. With the support of the Islamists.
      2. Yarbay
        +1
        27 December 2012 19: 02
        Quote: TUNISIA
        Announce Jihad?

        Sorry to interfere !!
        You see, every passer-by cannot declare jihad !!
        I don’t want to teach everyone here that there is a Big Jihad and a little Jihad, but I will say that there must be a basis for the announcement of jihad and not everyone can announce it!
  34. +2
    25 December 2012 15: 23
    The Wahhabis are Muslim Nazis (Arabs are the highest nation), and the conversation with the Nazis should be short. Kadyrov does not stand on ceremony with them. And to put it mildly, the descendants of the invaders are perplexing. It seems that the heirs of the Volga Bulgars forgot their history. Some of them remembers Kurbat, Asparuh, Almush. Nowadays, it has become fashionable to recall individuals who knew only two (out of 4) arithmetic operations - to take away and divide.
  35. +2
    25 December 2012 15: 28
    Everything goes according to plan. Dulles.
  36. +1
    25 December 2012 16: 25
    "and the new leader of the local Wahhabis promised to kill Russian President Vladimir Putin" - Some have already been soaked, I suggest these - freeze!
  37. +1
    25 December 2012 16: 38
    A lot of religion in the 21st century ....

    Atheism? sad
  38. Region65
    +2
    25 December 2012 17: 05
    Putin will see Tatarstan, if in the bud, now, in the bud, it will not eradicate this scum on the territory of Tatarstan, it will be visible, with loud bunches, diarrhea showers.
  39. +1
    25 December 2012 17: 36
    I think the article showed an emerging new threat to Russia as a state ... Islam, Islam, there are simply the laws of the Russian Federation, and specifically take measures to destroy the underground underground !!! Wahhabism is declared illegal on the territory of Russia, just like Fascism. To intensify work with the imams, the population of the republic, and those who were noticed in this case, to a new place of residence, to Novaya Zemlya, as Stalin had allotted land for the development of Jews near Birobidzhan, without the right to correspond and memorize the laws of the Russian Federation by heart ... Otherwise, it will not good. Who remembers TOTs (Tatar Public Center) in the 90s and how many people left Naberezhnye Chelny? About 540 thousand people left the city with a population of 5 thousand in 150 years. not Tatars .... until this TOTs were crushed ...
  40. 0
    25 December 2012 18: 05
    Kazan rudeness has already been measured by organs in the process of the Tatar-Mongol yoke. Does it seem a little? Repeat!
  41. 12061973
    +3
    25 December 2012 18: 44
    Kurban Bayram would coincide with the Airborne Forces Day in Moscow, that would be fun.
  42. Kurchan.70
    +1
    25 December 2012 19: 07
    This is to be expected
  43. +2
    25 December 2012 19: 21
    Crush and beat, beat and crush. Perhaps with feet. Even desirable ... And let the monument near his toilet put in the yard. By the way, the Tatar himself, from Kazan.
    1. 0
      26 December 2012 16: 50
      Create and send a brigade of special forces to them. Malyuta Skuratova.
  44. Cold
    +1
    25 December 2012 19: 35
    In Kazan, the people are educated and more secular (as tolerant whoever was in Syria) and very few Muslims, and among Tatars and among Russian and other peoples, unlike Chechnya (there are no Chechen scripts), moreover, in the photograph, on the flags it says Allah for the color is black (allegedly al-Qaida) in Russia we do not plant (violation of the Constitution of the Russian Federation) as during the procession. In addition, the boat is rocked from below (Saudis and others), but it turns out they are very sluggish because of the above. It’s not profitable for the elites (they’re not idiots) where is Moscow and where is the Arab world. wink
  45. 0
    25 December 2012 19: 56
    I read the comments carefully. He concluded that a good half of commentators are working in the same direction as the Tatar Wahhabis. It’s not a secret to anyone, it can be seen with the naked eye that this site does the same thing as other anti-government sites on the Internet. And do not rush into angry remarks - not rallying, you betray
    1. Cold
      0
      25 December 2012 20: 07
      Sites whose traffic is high is monitored by the FSB for stuffing information and reactions; public opinion is radically tagged as a joke. laughing
  46. +1
    25 December 2012 20: 26
    I came across one poem about religion.
    It was written either by an Arab or by a Persian in the Middle Ages:
    Christians affirm - Christ is omnipotent!
    Well, how not marveling at that power,
    Whatever omnipotent meekly demolished,
    When would his mortals beat.

    Jews praise us for their deity
    Jehovah is saying good things
    He is kind ? How strange
    then why does he require sacrificial blood?


    Intelligence, the logic of his faith,
    And you didn’t boast about a Muslim
    Passing hundreds of stones on the road
    Only in Mecca do you kiss a stone.

    Religion by the cunning plexus of words,
    He puts the power on people,
    The snares are different, the catch is unchanged,
    The fool always gets into them.
  47. von_Richten
    +2
    25 December 2012 21: 01

    Abu Bakr Muhammad al-Razi (c. 865 - c. 925) - Persian encyclopedic scientist, doctor, alchemist and philosopher. Truth, according to Ar-Razi - one, religions - many, therefore, all religions are false; one must read not Scripture, but the books of philosophers and scholars.
  48. +5
    25 December 2012 21: 15
    Müssülman understands only one thing-power! Good, respect ... etc.on he perceives as weakness and give him a little he will want everything ... Russia still has the strength and it’s impossible to retreat and tolerate this!
    1. 0
      25 December 2012 21: 56
      Where did you learn to write so "competently"?
  49. Alex-z84
    +3
    25 December 2012 21: 45
    It is high time that the seedlings of terror of Qatar and Saudi Arabia be made targets for a possible nuclear missile strike.
  50. +1
    25 December 2012 22: 17
    The fact of the appearance of "such" should not be alarming, but give rise to active preventive action. maybe it will not work. A religion (Wahhabism) in which the murder of an infidel is elevated to the rank of dignity, i.e. a person of another faith cannot be accepted in a civilized society in any way. And understand "such" really only strength. So far, this coal is just beginning to smolder - it is necessary to fill it with the blood of the provocateurs of riots in our state, otherwise we will flood it with tears later. And of course they inflate it over the hill ...
  51. ded_73
    -1
    25 December 2012 22: 21
    "What should we do with Ukraine?" Maybe it's better to put things in order at home?
    1. mamba
      +1
      25 December 2012 22: 53
      Quote: ded_73
      "What should we do with Ukraine?" Maybe it's better to put things in order at home?

      Yes, we seem to be talking about Tatars here. And in Crimea you have the same problems with them, if not worse. And about putting things in order in our homes - you are absolutely right. The bell is already ringing.
  52. bart74
    0
    26 December 2012 01: 12
    Yes, it all started from Tatarstan before Chechnya,
    in Tatarstan everything must end! Any attempts at separatism must be firmly suppressed. First of all, change the leadership. Deprive Tatarstan of the status of a republic and make it a province. But most importantly, with a firm, unwavering hand!
  53. +1
    26 December 2012 01: 23
    Hmmm, Waahabism is not Islam at all. They successfully hide behind this. But seriously, this is very exciting. We must not allow these creatures to take over. There are too many people who want to destabilize Russia. From time immemorial, both Orthodox and Muslims lived peacefully in Russia; you will not find this anywhere else!
  54. 0
    26 December 2012 06: 38
    Tatars are “nationalists” due to illiteracy. The great Genghis Khan, who created the largest empire in the world (and for this alone he is worthy of a monument), was an internationalist. After all, there were actually very few Tatars. His army included representatives of all nations who recognized the power of the khan. Almost all conquered peoples began to be called Tatars!
    Modern Tatars are not a nationality, but a super-ethnicity - a kind of “mixture” of completely different peoples (just like modern Russians).
    Another very important historical moment. Batu, his sons and grandsons had baptized wives (neumans). The policy of Batu and his descendants towards Rus' has always been very soft, almost allied (Prince Alexander Nevsky was not for nothing that Khan Sartak was a sworn brother and more than once used the help of Tatar warriors).
    But Khan Tokhtamysh was not a descendant of Batu. He was the Khan of the Blue Horde (northern Siberian territories). He did not understand the politics of the Golden Horde khans. It was his (and his descendants’) stupid raids on Rus' that led to the storming of Kazan by Ivan the Terrible.
  55. stranik72
    +2
    26 December 2012 08: 15
    These are already visible consequences of the failed policy on the national issue in Tatarstan, i.e. in Russia, Russians have been quietly surviving there for a long time, appointments to top positions are mainly based on nationality, the slogan is all for the Tatars, children of non-Tatar nationality have no prospects there, it is not possible to get a well-paid or promising job, in the oil industry it is even possible for a non-Tatar to become a hard worker the problem, in a word, the problem is already only our authorities, as usual “everything is fine.”
  56. Eric
    +1
    26 December 2012 10: 38
    I don’t care, they call me, I’ll go. Which have not be avoided.
  57. dema46
    -1
    26 December 2012 10: 59
    comment from an experienced Tatar
    1. there are a lot of left-wing mullahs, especially from the Caucasus, as well as in neighboring regions. For example, a Tajik mullah in Perm was convicted of extremism
    2. low standard of living. especially in villages. a lot of crime in large cities. the authorities don’t care at all. if the Minikhans and Shaimis are rich, then my sister in the village clings to 6 thousand like the last thread - she guards the hut-club.
    4. good work is not enough for young people, and this is precisely the breeding ground in Nizhnekamsk and Nizhny Chelny for replenishing the ranks of extremists. The slogan is this - we would live with our oil without Russia like in Kuwait. Slogans like in Ukraine in the early 90s when Kravchuk separated Ukraine from Russia.
    5. This is beneficial for officials as well as law enforcement officers, because just touching them will raise those who are nationally concerned on their hind legs.
    6. Many laws and regulations are adopted in retaliation for the downright short-sighted decisions of the central government. The law on the holiday on the occasion of the Russian victory over the Tatar-Mongol hordes on the Kulikovo field clearly did not please the Tatarstan people. For how many hundreds of years they have been poking the Tatars in the face with all sorts of fables about antiquity. all sorts of atrocities against the Russians. in Tatarstan they remember how they chopped off the heads of everyone who was even a little taller than a cart wheel... it’s interesting that the fables about the Second World War and the revolution have been changed so many times, but they talk about what happened hundreds of years ago as about what happened before our eyes and yesterday, the country does not become any friendlier from this.
    7. Why can you write on TV and in newspapers like Muslims are enemies? But you can’t write about Christian shortcomings?
    8. in the newspaper they easily mock non-Russians, mock the Chukchi, draw caricatures of Caucasians. They condescendingly suggest that we consider ourselves Russian, like if you speak Russian and live with us, then you can be Russian. But I speak Russian and all my friends think the same Russians and Jews, but I will never be Russian because I don’t know why, but I don’t need it.
    9. they are indignant that some idiots are chanting essentially dangerous slogans like Tatarstan for Tatars! And in Moscow and St. Petersburg, don’t we hear slogans that Russia is for Russians? Foreigners out!? Visit Saratov and the region and you’re interested will see the rudeness of the locals towards the rest, like chumps. But have you not heard about how your mug is not Ryazan, even if they cut it for an hour?
    10. Why do the authorities and the prosecutor’s office allow films about Russian heroes and other scoundrels to be shown for days on end? In any normal country this is nonsense, but in ours it’s normal!
    11. The priests have become the second or more parallel government in the country only because the government is very pious. Their speeches and teachings on the zombie box certainly do not strengthen our national unity.
    12. Why can Muslims be bullied in any way, but for example Jews cannot? Maybe because they are the owners of publications and television channels? But isn’t there any connection?
    13. Maybe we all need to start with ourselves and think about what to say. For example, we want to blurt out something like an uninvited guest, worse or better than a Tatar, and bite our tongue?
    maybe someday you should ask the authorities for Russian national idiots and Tatar scoundrels for slogans leading to bloodshed, because it is not clear where and whose?
    Maybe we need to understand that stop playing with all sorts of religions, because we need to believe without disturbing others.

    Why can the President of Tatarstan Minikhanov issue a decree on supporting Tatar women? And why only Tatar women? This is the president of multinational Tatarstan and where there are only half Tatars! And where is Putin and the prosecutors!
    and why does the central government announce that the Russian people are the city-forming people? First of all, I don’t understand why this needs to be announced. My friends, about whom I know that they are Russians, definitely haven’t increased their money and potential. And the second nasty thing immediately comes to mind - like the rest, who are really different according to some kind of record, are they, like, second-rate or slackers? Probably they did something wrong before or didn’t show up? But what on TV is constantly being suggested that the Russians defeated those or created something pleasant for others, well, not Russians?
    1. mamba
      +2
      26 December 2012 16: 24
      Quote: dema46
      Visit Saratov and the region and it will be interesting for you to see the rudeness of the locals towards others like chumps. But have you not heard about how your mug is not from Ryazan, even if they slaughter you for an hour?

      I live in Saratov, but I have never seen anything like this. When I was young I had to go to collective farms, mainly on the left bank, on the border with Kazakhstan. More Kazakhs and Tatars lived there, but there was never any national conflict with them. But we have been with visiting Chechens. Even then they behaved defiantly.
      Quote: dema46
      Why do the authorities and the prosecutor’s office allow films about Russian heroes and other scoundrels to be played for days on end? In any normal country this is nonsense, but in ours it’s normal!

      Can I have examples?
      Quote: dema46
      Why can Muslims be bullied in any way?

      Where and when?
      Quote: dema46
      or maybe someday ask the authorities for Russian national idiots and Tatar scoundrels for slogans leading to bloodshed

      I completely agree with you. It is high time. Otherwise they are busy cutting, they have no time for people.
      Quote: dema46
      Maybe we need to understand that stop playing with all sorts of religions, because we need to believe without disturbing others.

      As I understand it, you are against religious extremists, and not against the revival of traditional religions and their symbols. One of my Tatar friends once objected to the symbols of Orthodoxy, saying that they put up crosses, like in a cemetery. I had to explain the meaning of this symbol. I think I understand.
      Quote: dema46
      Why does the central government announce that the Russian people are the city-forming people?

      Not a city-former, but a state-former by right of the overwhelming majority in Russia. Is this really offensive to you? This has nothing to do with your assumptions about some kind of “second-classness” of other peoples living in Russia. This is complete nonsense!
      Quote: dema46
      But what is constantly suggested on TV that the Russians defeated those or created that and that is pleasant for others, well, not Russians?

      Any nation has the right to be proud of its victories. But unlike others, the Russian people never stick out their victories, do not hide their defeats, no matter how bitter they may be, and never belittle others’ victories, even over themselves. If it is unpleasant for someone to hear what you are talking about, then he should think about whether he chose the right country to live in?
  58. 0
    26 December 2012 13: 44
    Religious unrest, as well as the incitement of nationalism, is now BENEFITIVE for the authorities, because we now have capitalism everywhere. But the capitalists don’t care about the people - as long as they stay in power. well, a little more, a little more, and if it flares up, the entire “elite” will immediately jump over the hill, fortunately there are accounts there. And they need this so that the people do not unite and return to the socialist system. And let the whole world burn in flames. IT'S BENEFITABLE FOR THEM!
    1. 0
      26 December 2012 16: 56
      I agree. This happened in both Fergana and Osh, when the ruling elite cleverly turned social unrest into an interethnic conflict.
  59. +2
    26 December 2012 14: 43
    There are many faiths, and they are all different...
    What does heresy, sin, Islam mean?
    I chose love for You, God,
    Everything else is insignificant rubbish.
    Omar Khayyam
  60. Skinny
    +6
    26 December 2012 16: 18
    Why is there no radical Orthodoxy? Everything is just peasantry - if a person has stumbled or is of a different religion - understand, teach. Islam - kill the infidel!
    Bearded and angry monkeys will remain in the Stone Age.
    Yes, I don’t care... minus.
  61. davoks
    0
    26 December 2012 16: 18
    Has everyone who is discussing Kazan like this been in Kazan at least once in their life?
  62. Ares1
    0
    26 December 2012 16: 38
    We can talk a lot more about where Putin and the prosecutors are looking, declare the Tatars greedy and rude, state Tatar Wahhabism and call for retribution and justice, but... No one asked themselves the question - why is the real center of Wahhabism in Russia located in their country, why they also have centers for publishing such literature, why do they have such monuments to Tatar “heroes”, etc.? And this cannot be called separatism, because legally it will not be true. And why? And here is a quote from the constitution (yes, that’s right!) of Tatarstan: “Section I. Fundamentals of the constitutional system. Article 1. 1. The Republic of Tatarstan is a democratic legal state, united with the Russian Federation by the Constitution of the Russian Federation, the Constitution of the Republic of Tatarstan and the Treaty of the Russian Federation and the Republic of Tatarstan "On the delimitation of jurisdiction and mutual delegation of powers between government bodies of the Russian Federation and government bodies of the Republic Tatarstan" and is a subject of the Russian Federation. The sovereignty of the Republic of Tatarstan is expressed in the possession of all the fullness of state power (legislative, executive and judicial) outside the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation and the powers of the Russian Federation on subjects of joint jurisdiction of the Russian Federation and the Republic of Tatarstan and is an integral qualitative state of the Republic of Tatarstan.” These are the relations... And this is not Russian territory, but a separate state, unfortunately. Such a “good” neighbor is a powder keg... At one time, the “drunkard tsar” Yeltsin tried to further develop the situation and “stability” in Russia.
  63. Ares1
    +1
    26 December 2012 16: 43
    We can talk a lot more about where Putin and the prosecutors are looking, declare the Tatars greedy and rude, state Tatar Wahhabism and call for retribution and justice, but... No one asked themselves the question - why is the real center of Wahhabism in Russia located in their country, why they also have centers for publishing such literature, why do they have such monuments to Tatar “heroes”, etc.? And why? And here is a quote from the constitution (yes, that’s right!) of Tatarstan: “Section I. Fundamentals of the constitutional system. Article 1. 1. The Republic of Tatarstan is a democratic legal state, united with the Russian Federation by the Constitution of the Russian Federation, the Constitution of the Republic of Tatarstan and the Treaty of the Russian Federation and the Republic of Tatarstan "On the delimitation of jurisdiction and mutual delegation of powers between government bodies of the Russian Federation and government bodies of the Republic Tatarstan" and is a subject of the Russian Federation. The sovereignty of the Republic of Tatarstan is expressed in the possession of all the fullness of state power (legislative, executive and judicial) outside the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation and the powers of the Russian Federation on subjects of joint jurisdiction of the Russian Federation and the Republic of Tatarstan and is an integral qualitative state of the Republic of Tatarstan.” These are the relations... Such a “good” neighbor is a powder keg... At one time, the “drunkard tsar” Yeltsin tried to further develop the situation and “stability” in Russia.
  64. +1
    26 December 2012 18: 33
    Who is stopping us from changing this constitution? The terms of the presidency were immediately changed.
    The disease must be treated before it metastasizes. Surgically. If necessary - "Scalpel".
  65. 0
    26 December 2012 23: 21
    Regarding Ulu-Muhamed, everything is very much demonized. I would say the author is outright lying.
    Ulu-Muhamed was friends with our prince Ivan the Second (or the Third, I don’t remember). He was against campaigns against Rus' when he was Khan in the Horde. Moreover, he helped politically and even with military force against Lithuania, which was very strong at that time. After another coup, he left the Horde with only a few thousand of his most loyal subjects. Considering the Moscow Prince his friend, he counts on shelter in the Russian land and, moreover, occupies a DISPUTED city, which is constantly being captured by the Lithuanians. And he is ready to defend the southern borders of the Moscow Principality.
    But for some reason, our Prince, in principle, instead of thanking Khan Mahmed, sends an army there and asks Khan to go back to the Horde. To where they will kill him.
    So a huge army of Russians comes near Bele against a handful of Tatars. Those have nowhere to go. Our governors are no longer even willing to negotiate. The Tatars are ready to die. And then, as the chronicles write, an incomprehensible thing happens. Russian troops abandon everything and flee at night. They throw away convoys, weapons, etc. Some unknown force scared them. The Tatars, of course, were a little freaked out, since they clearly had nothing but death to expect from the battle.
    Of course, Khan Mahmed still leaves Belev. He is shocked by how Prince Ivan, whom he trusted, treated him. He goes to Kazan, which at that time was a ruin, and the small population of the remnants of the Bulgars was subjected to plunder.
    On these ruins he builds his state, and he was the first to Rus' didn't run into me. Next came the usual showdowns for that time. Raids, wars of robbery. It is unknown who robbed whom more - Russians or Tatars. Let me remind you that Moscow also robbed Tver and Novgorod and vice versa.
    Therefore, Ham Mahmed is truly worthy of a monument. He is NOT bloodthirsty, but a very worthy Ruler.
    I don't know where the author took his story from. Along the way, Karamzin did the same, but he simply slyly concealed the basic truth.
    1. 0
      27 December 2012 09: 18
      Ulu-Mukhamed was friends with our prince Ivan the Second (or I don’t remember the Third)

      Ivan the Second or Red is the father of Dmitry Donskoy. Here, you understand, the finger is in the sky. Ivan III or the Terrible (yes, Grozny, according to some sources, his contemporaries called him that, unlike Ivan IY) was born in 1440 and Ulu-Muhammad died in 1445 at the age of 40. What a friendship between a 5 year old boy and a 40 year old man. You reminded me of another “historian, a certain director Lungin, with his film “Tsar.” There, too, he “became friends” with 30-year-old Kolychev and young Ivan.
      So your comment smells stronger than Samsonov’s article. How is it in the Gospel:
      Judge not, lest ye be judged, for with the same judgment ye judge, so shall ye be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not feel the plank in your own eye?
  66. s1н7т
    +2
    26 December 2012 23: 26
    The author raised an important topic, but somehow strangely - he is not friendly with history, and somehow bypasses the constitutional responsibilities of the federal government (headed by Putin). The unambiguous impression is that the article is custom-made. They need to push through a law in the State Duma on criminal liability of municipalities and regional authorities for interethnic hatred. A stupid law - there is the Constitution of the Russian Federation, there is the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the FSB. Work - I don't want to! Do not want. And this law will only make the situation worse. Tomorrow the president of the Tatar republic will become (willingly or unwillingly) the banner of “struggle.” It’s right that people collect signatures for the dissolution of this “Duma”!
    1. +3
      27 December 2012 00: 29
      We need to keep a close eye on this Alexander Samsonov.
      He likes to push through all kinds of crap from history under the jingoism of patriotism. Moreover, he knows history quite well, but for some reason he deliberately lies.
      Along the way, he is one of those who works for the idea “give Russian Russia from Moscow to the Volga.”
      Well, how could you tell such crap about Khan Mahmed?
      The cunning west works. On the one hand there are Wahhabis, on the other there are “Russian” nationalists. The result is 3.14 children for the entire country. 40% of the world's resources go to the winner of the game.
      1. Yarbay
        +1
        27 December 2012 17: 57
        Quote: Magadan

        We need to keep a close eye on this Alexander Samsonov.
        He likes to push through all kinds of crap from history under the jingoism of patriotism. Moreover, he knows history quite well, but for some reason he deliberately lies.
        Along the way, he is one of those who works for the idea “give Russian Russia from Moscow to the Volga.”
        Well, how could you tell such crap about Khan Mahmed?
        The cunning west works. On the one hand there are Wahhabis, on the other there are “Russian” nationalists. The result is 3.14 children for the entire country. 40% of the world's resources go to the winner of the game.
        I’m ready to subscribe to your every word!!!!!+++++
        1. +1
          28 December 2012 05: 44
          Thank you Yarbay!
          I re-read the History of Mahmed Khan. In short, ours really don't look good there. We must pay tribute to the chronicler, he still simply depicted everything in black and white, although he referred to objective circumstances. If we put all emotions aside, this is what we get:
          1. When Mahmed was Khan in the Horde, he freed Prince Vasily (! sorry, not Ivan, as I wrote before) from all payments to the Horde.
          2. Khan Mahmed acted politically on the side of Moscow against Lithuania.
          3. Khan Mahmed, after the coup in the Horde, left there with 3 thousand soldiers and occupied the Lithuanian city of Belyov at that time.
          4. Prince Vasily demanded that Mahmed leave Belyov. Here the historian begins to explain why. But the important fact is that Mahmed considered Vasily a friend. Mahmed could not threaten Moscow with 3 thousand.
          5. Prince Vasily sent Shemyaka against Mahmed. At the same time, the historian points out that somehow our army behaved like bandits along the road.
          6. Shemyaka did not talk to Makhmedam, although he really asked him about negotiations. Russian troops, almost 30 thousand, prepared for battle
          7. In the morning the Tatars saw the Russians running away, as if they were frightened by something. As an Orthodox Christian, I would rather say SOMEONE. Well, I don’t believe that the Tatars had some kind of psychotropic weapon. God was clearly not on the side of Vasily, who, whatever one may say, acted like a complete lawless man at that time.
          Mahmed still leaves and creates Kazan.
          Conclusion - ours were wrong. But is this a reason to be ashamed of History? We all made mistakes, but the main thing is that we built a Great Country together. And Mahmed was indeed a very worthy person. Just like our glorious surnames: Sheremetyevs, Saltykovs, Yusupovs, Tolstoys, etc. All are entirely from the Horde.
  67. 0
    28 December 2012 08: 36
    Damn, the thought came to mind - what if this was actually a production, some kind of show for the new Horde ruler? Like, we Russians are not friends with your enemy Mahmed. We are sending troops against him. And on the sly, Vasily agreed with Mahmed that the troops would feign vigorous activity, and then run away, as if some vision had frightened them?
    Who knows how it was.
  68. 0
    28 December 2012 18: 03
    I am the governor - why are we silent? This fits well with the concept of the beginning of World War 3. Isn't it time to calm down the Tatar Muslim comrades? Like, don’t worry, Allah Akbar, and who doesn’t agree - riot police Akbar?
  69. teo-s09
    0
    28 December 2012 22: 07
    TAKE THE RUSSIANS OUT OF KAZAN AND THE ATOMIC BOMB THERE! WHAT'S THE FUCK WITH THEM!
  70. fedulaz2015
    0
    8 March 2013 15: 23
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