Tank Lend-Lease. USA

174
Tank Lend-Lease. USA

“There are no more stupid people than Americans. They will never be able to fight like heroes, ”Adolf Hitler authoritatively stated. The mustachioed was partly right - it’s hard to feel like a hero when, in all cases, you have tenfold quantitative superiority. The Americans clearly overdid it, having thrashed over 200 thousand units of armored vehicles during the war years - more than they released tank factories of the Soviet Union and the Third Reich combined.

The achievements of the American “Stakhanovists” are explained simply: a developed country, which did not know destructive wars on its territory, industrialized at the dawn of the twentieth century and was ready at any moment to realize its gigantic accumulated potential. X Day was 11 March 1941, when President Roosevelt signed the famous Lend-Lease Bill: a law giving the right to transfer military property to any country whose defense is deemed vital for US security.

Best of all, the meaning of Lend-Lease was explained by President Roosevelt himself: “Imagine,” he said, “that my neighbor's house caught fire, and I have a garden hose. If he can take my hose and attach it to his pump, then I will help him put out the fire. What am i doing? I am not telling him: “Neighbor, this hose cost 15 dollars to me, you have to pay for it.” Not! I don't need 15 dollars, I need him to return my hose after the fire ends. ”

From the above, three important conclusions follow:

1. Lend-Lease is NOT CHARITY, but an elaborate defense strategy in the interests of the United States. The reason for Uncle Sam’s unheard-of generosity was quite obvious: the Americans seriously feared that the "world fire" would spread to their "home", so they decided in advance to "secure themselves" and help those whom they considered necessary. Choking in brutal battles, the Soviet Union was included on the November 7 list of the 1941 of the year.
2. Pay for Lend-Lease was not gold. For lend-lease Soviet soldiers paid with their own blood.
3. All that was destroyed, spent and spent was not payable. It was necessary to pay (or return) only the property that remained in the army and the national economy after the end of hostilities (the surviving tanks, power plants, machine tools, long-distance telephone communication nodes, etc.)

Democracy arsenals

By the beginning of the Second World War, the Yankees had only five hundred M2 tankettes with anti-bullet armor and machine-gun armament. In principle, even this seemed redundant for the North American continent, safely separated from any wars and social cataclysms by two deep anti-tank ditches with salt water.

In other words, the US Army essentially had neither tanks, nor armored units, nor any tactics to use armored vehicles in conjunction with other branches of the military (the reader should not make the mistaken conclusion that the Yankees were an overly peace-loving people — for example, by the end of 30 -years they had a solid carrier fleet, a dozen modern battleships and four-engine "Flying Fortresses" - the needs of the armed forces are determined by the nature of the fighting).

And now the situation has changed - urgently needed tanks. Tens of thousands of military vehicles for the needs of their own army and supplies under the Lend-Lease program. The first American medium tank M3 "Lee" was designed - an unusual and contradictory machine. The industry increased the production of armored vehicles, for the production of tanks were used the power of giant automobile factories. American engineers did not disdain to use automotive technology in tank building.

At the end of 1941, genuine frenzy began - Chrysler launched Detroit Tank Arsenal, a giant defense plant specializing in armored vehicles. By this time, the second “tank-town”, the Fisher Tank Arsenal, reached full capacity, literally filling up the army warehouses and storage sites with light and medium tanks, as well as various self-propelled guns and specialized armored vehicles on their chassis.



From all this abundance, the Soviet Union got:

- 1232 light tanks M3 "Stewart",

- 976 medium tanks M3 "Lee",

- 3664 medium tank M4A2 "Sherman",

- 52 tank destroyer M10 "Wolverin",

- single copies of the light tank М5 (“Stewart” with an automobile engine), light tank М24 “Chaffee” and the most modern American heavy tank М26 “Pershing” for informational purposes.

In addition to tanks and heavy armored vehicles based on them, the USSR was supplied:

- 100 anti-aircraft self-propelled units M15 semi-tracked chassis,

- 1000 anti-aircraft self-propelled units M17 (on the chassis of the M3 armored personnel carrier), which became the main means of mobile air defense of tank and mechanized units of the Red Army.

- 650 lightweight destroyer tanks T48 (also on the chassis of the half-tracks BTR M3).

As for the armored personnel carriers themselves, there were by no means as many of them as is commonly believed. The USSR received in the framework of the Lend-Lease:

- 118 MNNXX Half-Track BTR,

- 840 more modern semi-tracked M5 / M9 (modification of the M3 armored personnel carrier, characterized by a more powerful engine, cheap armor and a different arrangement of firing points).

- 3340 light armored personnel carriers М3А1 "Scout", which are all-wheel drive armored vehicles of high maneuverability of about 5,5 tons.

- Several amphibious amphibious tracked LVT tracked vehicles for informational purposes.

Almost none of the American armored personnel carriers did not get into the motorized rifle regiments for their intended purpose. All of them were intended for reconnaissance or artillery units, where they were used as tractors.

The Americans, it is worth paying tribute to them, have kindly attended to the maintenance of their “steel chariots” - together with the USSR armored vehicles, a number of field tank repair plants were set up, the fleet of which had up to 10 special machines: the M16А and М16В mechanical workshops, the mechanical workshop М8А, the mechanics workshop M2А and М18В, the fitting and mechanical workshop М7А, the mechanics workshop M14А and М10В, the fitting and mechanical workshop М31А, the mechanics workshop MXNUMXА and МXNUMXВ, the fitting and mechanical workshop МXNUMXА, the mechanics workshop MXNUMXА and MXNUMXВ -welding workshop MlXNUMX, electrical repair workshop MXNUMX, repair workshop for weapons MXNUMX, tool workshop and storage machines MXNUMX. All of them were based on the chassis of the Studebaker three-axle off-road truck. The fleet of tank repair shops also included XNUMX-ton automobile cranes and armored repair and recovery vehicles MXNUMX.

Analyzing the above material, it is clearly noticeable that the supply of American armored vehicles looks very pale against the background of the scale of the domestic industry: during the war years, the Ural factories produced 50 000 T-34 tanks! It is clear that American tanks cannot serve as an accurate criterion for estimating the value of the Lend-Lease - for a more balanced comparison, it is preferable to pay attention to the supply of trucks or the supply of aluminum (300 thousand tons).

It is worth noting that the UK received many times more American armored vehicles, for example, the British were delivered over 17 thousands of tanks "Sherman"! However, in drawing up the Lend-Lease protocols, the interests of each side were taken into account: the United Kingdom experienced an acute shortage of tanks, the USSR, on the contrary, could independently ensure the mass production of excellent armored vehicles, so ordered airplanes and rolled aluminum, along with motor vehicles, radio stations and food.

American tank Lend-Lease is significant primarily because thousands of our soldiers fought not with a rifle, but on tracks and under the cover of armor. Still, six thousand tanks and the same number of armored vehicles for various purposes - a solid force.
Secondly, this whole story very interesting from a technical point of view - American tanks differed by the original design and often acquired specific properties that allowed them to be used in special operations (this will be a little later).
Finally, such a class of equipment as an “armored personnel carrier” was not produced in the USSR during the war years, which gave the Lend-Lease BTRs a certain uniqueness.

M3 "Stuart"

Light tank
Combat weight 13 tons. 4 crew
Reservations: 38 hull forehead ... 44 mm, hull sideboard 25 mm.
Armament: 37 mm anti-tank gun, stabilized in a vertical plane; 5 machine guns "Browning" (1 - paired with a gun, 1 - course, 2 - in the side sponsons, 1 - anti-aircraft).
Speed ​​on highway 60 km / h.




“The mobility of the tank MLS is truly amazing. In the area of ​​combat operations, both when driving on roads and over rough terrain, the MZl tank turned out to be the fastest of all known wheeled and tracked vehicles. ”- Major General of tank engineering, Ph.D., Professor NI Gruzdev (1945 g.).

The first 46 "Stuarts" arrived in the USSR in January 1942. The firstborn of American tank building in the USSR received the designation MHNUMXl (light), and entered into service with battalions of light tanks as part of tank brigades. Like any light tank, the "Stuart" was limited to maneuver on the battlefield, preferring to fire from natural shelters. A frontal attack on the prepared strip of anti-tank defense guaranteed for him ended with heavy losses. However, with proper use of this tank turned into a formidable weapon:

September 19 1942, conducting reconnaissance near the city of Malgobek, a tank platoon of Lieutenant Pavkin discovered a convoy of German tanks 16. Having organized an ambush with his platoon (three tanks MSL), Lieutenant Pavkin attacked the enemy and, acting boldly and decisively, destroyed the 11 machines. The platoon of Lieutenant Pavkin had no casualties in personnel and material parts.


Most of the 977 “Stuarts” that arrived in 1942 were deployed in the South of Russia, where the critical situation with domestic armored vehicles was critical: the North Caucasus Front was cut off from the industrial bases of the Urals and Siberia.

In February 1943 of the year, the Stuarts took part in a unique operation - the landing of a naval landing near Novorossiysk. It was the only case in the Great Patriotic War when Soviet tanks had to land in the first wave of the landing. Of the tanks participating in the landing of the 30, most of them were destroyed during the landing, but the 12 of the Stuarts managed to get ashore, and for three days they were supported by the fire of the black jackets. Unfortunately, the entire staff of the 563-Tank Battalion heroically died in a battle at South Ozereyka. Another remarkable fact from the biography of "Stewart" - tanks of this type were the first to engage in battle with the German armored vehicles on the Kursk Bulge, and even managed to take part in a tank battle near Prokhorovka.

“... a tank must harmoniously combine armor, speed and armament, in this sense the MSL tank is inferior. The 37-mm caliber cannon, the main armament of the MPL, is undoubtedly weak armament, and this is the main reason why the tank could not hold out for a long time on the battlefield. ”- Major General, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Professor NI Gruzdev.
In principle, this is a fair estimate for any light tank.

M3 Stuart and his Soviet crew


And this happened


M3 "Lee"

Medium tank
Combat weight 28 tons. Crew 6-7 people.
Reservations: 51 mm case forehead, mm 38 case board.
Armament: 75 mm gun in the sponson on the starboard side of the tank; 37 mm anti-tank gun in a rotating turret; Browning machine gun 4.
Speed ​​on highway 40 km / h.


"As America of Russia
Gave em three es.
A lot of noise, little sense,
Growth came to heaven! "

The M3 “Lee” is the case when looking at the “paper” TTX it seems that we have a real “super-weapon”. Two guns, a large crew, decent mobility and reservations for those years. Alas, when we get acquainted with the appearance of the M3, it becomes clear that we have before us a “three-story steel coffin”. Bulky, poorly protected and inefficient. The Soviet tank crews did not hesitate to give even tougher assessments to the American tank: the BM-6 (“mass grave for six”) or the VG-7 (“sure death of seven”).

The fact that two cannons for one tank is an obvious brute force became clear at the end of the 30s. The tank commander physically did not have time to coordinate the work of the gunners, as a result, usually only one of the two guns fired. The obvious conclusion was that it was obvious: why carry extra “ballast” with you if these several tons can be rationally distributed by turning them into additional millimeters of armor. Well, throwing tomatoes into a loser is a great deal. But it is more interesting (and more useful!) To analyze the real combat use of the M3 “Li” (received in the USSR the designation M3c (medium), in order to avoid confusion with the M3 “Stewart”). Was it all so hopeless in reality?

For example, the British tankers treated the M3 "Lee" with respect: in addition to such basic quality as reliability, the M3 perfectly matched the conditions of North Africa: Caterpillar fortress! Where there were no dashing tank breakouts and counterattacks, where it was necessary to defend from prepared positions - the M3 “Lee” turned out to be a real “long-term firing point” with enormous firepower.

The conditions of the Soviet-German front, on the contrary, turned out to be extremely unprofitable for the use of the M3 "Lee". But even here this tank managed to distinguish itself: 5 July 1943 of the year, an episode of the heroic defense of Cherkasy village took place on the Fiery Arc: 67-I and 71-I guards rifle divisions, with the support of 39 tanks M3 "Li" and 20 SAU, kept back all day furious attacks of the Wehrmacht’s 48 tank corps, equipped with the latest armored vehicles. The Soviet soldiers confused the Germans with all the plans, which ultimately led to the failure of Operation Citadel.
Still, too much depends on the actions of the tank crew and the correct tactics for the use of armored vehicles. Even such a “barn on the tracks”, like the M3, can be taught to fight and win.

M4 "Sherman"

Medium tank
Combat weight 30 tons. Crew 5 man.
Reservations: 51 mm case forehead, mm 38 case board.
Armament: 75 mm or 76 mm rifled gun, large-caliber machine gun on the turret roof, two rifle-caliber machine guns.
Speed ​​on highway 39 km / h.


Soviet tankers in the ski resorts of Austria

It was a good tank in all respects. Weighted, carefully thought out design, high-quality assembly, excellent weapons, unique equipment and mechanisms of the tank. The list of positive qualities of “Sherman” can take a whole chapter: accurate and reliable hydraulic drive of the turret (100% advantage in any duel situation), vertical gun-stabilized gun, low noise (unlike T-34, whose clang and roar was heard at night for many kilometers, the Sherman was ideal where secrecy was required), a large-caliber machine gun (the only medium tank of the Second World War that had such weapons), an economical motoblock for heating and charging batteries (domestic tanks had onyat main diesel, expending valuable service life and consuming buckets of diesel fuel - the idea of ​​an auxiliary power unit proved to be so attractive that these units are equipped with most modern tanks), spacious and ergonomic crew compartment, reliable transmission. All Shermans supplied to the USSR were equipped with diesel engines (this will probably become an important argument for opponents of fire-hazardous gasoline engines).

Let us be completely objective! The disadvantages of the Sherman tank, in the first place, are called weak bookings - the situation was aggravated by the end of the war, the 38-51 mm was clearly not enough in conditions of maximum saturation of the German troops with anti-tank weapons. "Sherman" on 23 cm above T-34 (and almost equal in height to T-34-85). He has more pressure on the ground, less power density (although this was offset by a more efficient transmission), a small power reserve for gasoline versions.

Sherman has practically no tragic and glorious history that the T-34 acquired in the battles on the Eastern Front. However, the fate of some American tanks was no less remarkable - after hot battles in the Sinai desert, the 150 surviving Super Shermans (modified with 105 mm gun) were acquired in 90 for the Chilean Ground Forces. "Super Shermans" friskedly plowed the mountain slopes of the Andes until they were replaced with the modern MBT "Leopard-2" at the beginning of the new millennium.


"Super Sherman" Chilean Army, 1990's


During the war years, the 49 234 "Sherman" was released, which puts him in second place after T-34. It is fair to say that the number of “Shermans” did not affect their quality in any way: the “features” characteristic of the T-34, in the form of raw elements of the interior of the crew compartment or problems with gear changes, were not typical of Sherman. The quality of these tanks was included in the legends.


Soviet soldiers on a light armored vehicle M3A1 "Scout"



ZSU M17. The 12.7mm 4-way "Browning" motorized unit provided a sufficiently high density and accuracy of fire for low-flying targets.


Facts and figures are taken from M. Baryatinsky's book “Lend-Lease Tanks in Battle”
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174 comments
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  1. +4
    25 December 2012 09: 39
    There is not a bad book about the EMCH "Tankman in a foreign car" but what about "Matilda" is forgotten (though it's an English tank)
    1. Sirozha
      +2
      25 December 2012 10: 40
      About English help, here on the site, there is a separate article.
      1. +2
        25 December 2012 15: 07
        Sirozha

        and there Yes .

        on the picture:

        Soviet tank English production "Valentine II" in ambush during the battle for Moscow. The photo was published in the newspaper “Krasnaya Zvezda” No. 275 of 22 in November 1941. The article “To the battle in British tanks” was published on the issue. It described the division of Captain Frost. Stepan Samoilovich Moroz, commander of the 137 tank battalion, killed 7 on December 1941. Most likely, this photo was taken exactly at the location of the 137 tank battalion.
    2. +3
      25 December 2012 10: 48
      There was an article about Matilda recently. "tank Lend-Lease. Great Britain" is called. also interesting, I advise you to read it.
    3. 0
      25 December 2012 15: 01
      Narkom

      Quote: Narkom
      then they forgot about "Matilda"


      we all remember wink

      on the picture:

      Named infantry tank "Matilda II" tank "Tank of four heroes" and its crew. In the ranks from left to right: Senior Lieutenant N.I. Fokin, Senior Lieutenant A.I. Voitov, Senior Sergeant P.K. Smooth, Senior Sergeant S.T. Dorozhenko. Central Front, January 1943
  2. +17
    25 December 2012 09: 47
    We must pay tribute to the United States in terms of assisting the USSR with Lend-Lease, we really must thank them for their help, BUT the main thing is not to forget, and the fact that aid, although it contributed to the victory in Germany, was far from the most important link in this victory.
    It’s not worth extolling our Allies in WWII; they helped us with only one goal to save or postpone the strike on their precious arrogant-Saxon asses.
    Our grandfathers won that war, they won with the help of the Allies, but victory would have been achieved by the USSR’s own resources, if only this would have happened later.
    1. +5
      25 December 2012 10: 39
      Quote: Sakhalininets
      It’s not worth extolling our Allies in WWII; they helped us with only one goal to save or postpone the strike on their precious arrogant-Saxon asses.

      it’s also a very profitable business
      1. +3
        25 December 2012 13: 58
        Who brought Adolf Ivanovich to power, not Bush?
        The entire cut of 2 MV consisted of the rise of the "freezeStan" and the unconditional decrease in the capabilities of other "opponents-participants" of the great world game.
    2. +4
      25 December 2012 13: 32
      Tell me, but with thanks, it’s necessary to fault them, is it?
      1. +6
        25 December 2012 17: 38
        Pimply

        Quote: Pimply
        Tell me, but with thanks, it’s necessary to fault them, is it?


        I personally think this is not right!
        - Yes, of course ours would have won without American help;
        - Yes, of course, the quantity of finished products supplied was incomparably small in comparison with what Soviet plants produced;
        “Yes, it was all paid for by our blood and gold.”
        But, I think so, do not forget about the rest of the military cargo delivered to us; do not forget what significance both the Soviet and German leadership attached to the northern Lend-Lease path; what efforts were made to destroy it --- in fact, almost the entire surface fleet of the Reich was thrown into caravans with land lease.
        I especially want to emphasize that we should not forget the courage of sailors, commanders, sailors delivering to us these caravans, which were killed by thousands and this cannot be appreciated with gold.
        To speak in a derogatory tone about Lend-Lease is, I dare say so, also to insult the memory of the Northern Fleet sailors who sacrificed their lives during the caravans.

        on the picture:

        Tank M4 "Sherman" American production from the 2nd Ukrainian Front on the march.
      2. SSR
        +2
        26 December 2012 12: 51
        Quote: Pimply
        Tell me, but with thanks, it’s necessary to fault them, is it?

        Have a nice day!
        I personally do not thank them, if only because they were based on their interests .. well, you can search on the Internet ..
        Lend-lease on the contrary. How the capital of the USA and Britain helped Hitler
        Not everyone knows that such American companies as, for example, the famous Otis or American Express, during World War II, invested gigantic amounts in ... the development of Nazi Germany.
        However, the contribution of these companies compared to others looks just ridiculous. Tens of millions of dollars - these are the amounts that were transferred to the Rockefeller, Rothschild and Dupont companies in the Reich. We’ll talk about them today.
        Just a business, nothing personal

        http://maxpark.com/community/129/content/1674254
        Charles Hiam. Trade with the enemy. How America Helped Hitler
        How America helped Hitler. Foreword ... Facts about secret cooperation between the American (as well as British, French) monopolies and the large German
        1. 0
          26 December 2012 14: 00
          And again Thomas suffered a hassle. The interests of individual citizens acting against the interests of the state are a slightly different scenario. For which, by the way, these citizens actively received hands
    3. +5
      26 December 2012 01: 02
      Sakhalininsk
      Of course, there is no need to exalt. But you should not rush with claims. One must be realistic. The USSR was frankly on the drum when Hitler burned Coventry and London in 1940 and this is also a policy of realism, and not Stalin’s dishonest plan. Each of the leaders of the anti-Hitler coalition thought first of all about the victory over Germany, secondly about his country after the victory, and only then about the allies. Otherwise, what kind of leaders would they be? Of course, the Americans were not naive altruists creating a land lease system, but this does not make it less valuable for the USSR in 1942-45. By the way, we must not forget that the supplies that the United States made to the USSR did not come from the bulldozer. There was a commission from the USSR and it was she who selected the samples. At the beginning of the war there was no particular choice because the US military industry came to a serious backlog only by the 1942 year, but we must not forget that the Americans and the British also fought with these weapons. So if without extremes then Lend-Lease did not win the war on the Eastern Front, but saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers and saved the country's poor resources at that time for other purposes.
      1. +4
        26 December 2012 03: 02
        Quote: Aron Zaavi
        . Each of the leaders of the anti-Hitler coalition thought first of all about the victory over Germany, secondly about his country after the victory, and only then about the allies.


        yeah, all the fools were sitting there good . When the USSR tried, with the help of France, to create a zone of public safety, and Poland torpedoed all endeavors, England and the United States led their game ---- no one made plans, there will be what will happen good all leading powers thought so laughing
        Well, their countries have finally nothing to leaders to think - bullshit of those countries!
        the collapse is complete.
  3. DYMITRY
    +10
    25 December 2012 09: 53
    The article is good. But there is one BUT !!! If Lend Liz was paid for by military operations, then for what did the Soviet Union pay with gold until the middle of the 70's ??? Amers did not hesitate to invoice for each nut supplied.
    1. +5
      25 December 2012 11: 01
      For example, many planes remained, Li-2 cargo-passenger, many other equipment for which it was easier to pay off than letting out by ourselves.
      1. +1
        26 December 2012 08: 36
        a license was purchased for the DS-3 before the war.
        1. Rjn
          0
          26 December 2012 13: 12
          I will clarify Manenko - DC-3. And Li-2 met in the 70s.
    2. +16
      25 December 2012 11: 51
      Quote: DYMITRY
      If Lend Liz was paid for by military operations, then for what did the Soviet Union pay with gold until the middle of the 70's ???

      It was necessary to pay these things:

      machine tools - 20 380 pcs.

      industrial equipment in the amount of 257,2 million dollars;

      power equipment for a total capacity of 288 thousand kW.,

      263 power plants,

      equipment of 4's oil refineries and aluminum rolling
      factory

      200 stations of high-frequency telephony (long-distance communication between cities of the USSR);

      4 138 marine engines .total power 1 768 000 horsepower,

      2718 presses and hammers,

      622,1 thousand tons of railway rails;

      1900 steam locomotives

      etc.
      1. +3
        25 December 2012 18: 00
        This is a condition of Lend-Lease, what we kept in the national economy after the war. It was necessary to either return or pay
    3. +2
      25 December 2012 18: 57
      Quote: DYMITRY
      The article is good. But there is one BUT !!! If Lend Liz was paid for by military operations, then for what did the Soviet Union pay with gold until the middle of the 70's ??? Amers did not hesitate to invoice for each nut supplied.

      I agree with you - the gold was exported without understatement by DRY LOADERS AND CRUISERS !!! 1 of them (it seems "Edinburgh" sank, you can try to find about 100 tons of gold there laughing ) so this "help" was not only a forced step, but also hit hard on the already collapsed economy of the state that had survived a terrible war ... but all the same, in fairness, I must say that LANDLIZE saved a certain number of soldiers' lives ...
      1. postman
        +2
        26 December 2012 00: 15
        Quote: 11 black
        try to find there about 100 tons of gold

        HMS Edinburgh QP-11 (28.04.1942/7.05.1942/XNUMX Murmansk - XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX Reykjavik)

        4.5-long-ton (5,570 kg) Gold £ 1.5 million sterling. What are 100 tons?

        in 1981, a Soviet-English agreement was concluded and a contract was signed with Jessop Marine Recovery Limited on the terms “there is no reward without salvation”. All expenses for search and rescue operations until the successful unloading of gold at the agreed ports were borne by the company. Under the contract, the extracted precious cargo was divided between Great Britain and the Soviet Union in the proportion of one third to two thirds.

        431 out of 465 ingots were raised.
      2. +1
        26 December 2012 11: 01
        Here again, they mined without comment ... just click on the minus, but argue your minus you need to strain gyrus

        PS I myself wonder what I'm wrong ...
        1. postman
          0
          26 December 2012 21: 57
          Quote: 11 black
          Here again, they mined without comment ... just click on the minus, but argue your minus you need to strain gyrus

          I corrected if it is so important (+)
  4. borisst64
    +13
    25 December 2012 10: 22
    I look at the photos of our tanks in Austria. T-34-85 is elegant from all angles, surprisingly beautiful tank.
    1. +4
      25 December 2012 11: 05
      Perfection is always beautiful ...
    2. +4
      25 December 2012 16: 46
      We’ll also see the T-90 there! soldier
      1. +3
        25 December 2012 20: 00
        With such an attitude towards the army, if "Leopards" could not be seen in Moscow ...
        1. 0
          26 December 2012 13: 17
          I already laughed, I noticed for sure, well done.
  5. Chapaev
    -1
    25 December 2012 10: 22
    Well, thanks to our allies for the help provided at a difficult moment. It’s a pity only politicians for many decades sowed enmity between our countries
    1. +8
      25 December 2012 10: 53
      The United States should not be too exalted if something is beneficial to them - they do it. Although their help came in handy., Otherwise a few million more Russian lives would have to be put on the altar of Victory. My opinion is that we ourselves would have finished off the Germans, but at the cost of enormous human and economic losses.

      They drank for Russian whiskey -
      Did not have time to pour;
      And the second front was then opened,
      When they could not open ...
      When they realized what was going on, they immediately rushed to Europe, "ruble" places to take

      The Soviet army captured Hitler. At the Politburo they are discussing what to do with it, someone suggests hanging, someone shooting ...
      Then Stalin says:
      -I propose to take an iron rod, heat it up and insert it into Hitler's cold end with a cold end!
      - Why cold, comrade Stalin ???
      -And so they don’t pull out the allies!

      Some statistics:
      The main recipients of Lend-Lease are England (31 billion) and the Soviet Union (11 billion)
      England:
      According to the post-war agreement, England was supposed to pay only 5.2 billion over 50 years at 2% per annum. The payout start date was set from 1950. England had the right to deferments, which she used. Payments were completed in 2006. After the payment ended, the Minister of Economy solemnly thanked America for its help in the war.
      USSR: In 1945, America wanted to get 1.3 billion from the USSR (the proportion looks better than for England). The USSR proposed 170 million. The debt hung before 1972, when part of the debt was written off. The USSR bought grain for 750 million and this amount seems to have been written off from debt.
      About 500 million remained. At 2006, Russia paid the debt to the Paris club.
      1. +4
        25 December 2012 11: 35
        Quote: Middle Brother
        And the second front was then opened,
        When they could not open ...

        The first American expeditionary force (55 thousand people supported by 500 tanks) landed in Algeria on 8 on November 1942.

        A year later, in July 1943, 500 000 of English and American soldiers landed in Sicily, Italy surrendered a month later. (total forces deployed in Italy - up to 1,5 million people, more than when landing in Normandy!)

        6 June 1944 took place final a major landing in Normandy, which Soviet historians blasphemously misinterpreted, calling "the date of America's entry into the war."

        As if nothing had happened before - neither the Strategic bombing of German industry (started in 1942), nor 700 of sunken German submarines in the Atlantic (on average, 1000 tons of steel each — recalculate this steel to the number of tanks); neither the landing of Italy, nor the Pacific theater of operations, which America was completely dragging on itself (2 million Japanese soldiers and sailors were killed there, by the way, and war at sea requires a huge amount of manpower and means - the fleet has always been the most expensive type of aircraft).

        And add here the US Labor Front - American industry supplied, fed, dressed and put on the entire Anti-Hitler Coalition.
        1. +9
          25 December 2012 12: 04
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          On June 6, 1944, the final major landing in Normandy took place.

          Why did it even take place?
          The post-war section compensated well for the costs. And it is strange that the pre-war crisis gave way to a boom in the economy after the war in the United States, with such selfless and selfless help to the Soviet Union.
          1. 0
            25 December 2012 13: 36
            Who is talking about selfless help? Or did the USSR selflessly help someone? All pursue their own interests. Just do not forget that the Americans did not choose the Germans, but the USSR
            1. +4
              25 December 2012 14: 09
              Quote: Pimply
              Just do not forget that the Americans did not choose the Germans, but the USSR

              Eugene, I wonder what Hitler would do if the blitzkrieg was successful?
              He probably would have cleaned the wings of his eagle and attacked England and with unlimited resources of the USSR it would have been difficult for him to resist.
              After the war, there was a division and the parties agreed on fair compensation.
              That's why they and the allies would have to provide any help.
              1. -11
                25 December 2012 14: 14
                Quote: saturn.mmm
                I wonder what Hitler would do if the blitzkrieg was successful?

                In the end, the rake would be from the United States
                1. +8
                  25 December 2012 14: 19
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  In the end, the rake would be from the United States

                  With the resources of all Eurasia and allied Japan?
                  The United States had fewer chances, and the war would drag on for decades, which is why the Yankees had to help the USSR.
                  And Stalin tried to squeeze EVERYTHING out of this, somewhere it happened that the Yankees were shocked when they saw that the piers of Arkhangelsk were lined with aluminum.
                  1. 0
                    25 December 2012 14: 57
                    Kars hi

                    Hello! Where were you?

                    on the picture:

                    A rare photo of Soviet tank crews with the Stunt M3A1, in American headsets, with the Thompson M1928A1 submachine gun and the M1919A4 machine gun. American technology was left fully leased by Lend-Lease - with equipment and even small arms for the crew.

                    1. 0
                      25 December 2012 15: 00
                      If I’m not mistaken, there was even a bottle of whiskey in the barrel.
                      1. +1
                        25 December 2012 15: 05
                        Pimply

                        hello hi Well, if so, then I am happy for ours.
                      2. +4
                        25 December 2012 15: 31
                        In the book of the Hero of the Soviet Union tank officer D.F.Losa, “Tanker on a foreign car” [15], a rather interesting case is described. “Shermans” entering the USSR under Lend-Lease were re-conserved directly in the troops, into which they came in the very form in which they left the factory gates. Representatives of American firms told Soviet tank crews that factory workers usually leave small gifts for tank crews in the tank, but despite the fact that the tanks came canned, nothing interesting could be found in them.
                        The canned tanks arrived with two corks of cannon fat in the gun barrel, one on the bolt side and the other in the muzzle, when the corks were re-mothballed, they were knocked out by a banner. When knocking out another cork, a bottle of whiskey fell out of the barrel and broke. It is curious that the diameter of a standard whiskey bottle is exactly 3 inches, which coincides with the caliber of the M2, M3 and M1 guns installed on the Shermans.
                        After that, the trunks began to re-preserve very carefully.
                      3. YuDDP
                        +1
                        25 December 2012 20: 44
                        not the topic, but by analogy with a bottle of whiskey: the diameter of the cigarette is just 3 lines - 7.62 mm
                      4. 0
                        27 December 2012 06: 31
                        Interesting story!
                  2. +3
                    25 December 2012 15: 04
                    Kars hi

                    Hello! Where were you?

                    on the picture:

                    A rare photo of Soviet tank crews with the Stunt M3A1, in American headsets, with the Thompson M1928A1 submachine gun and the M1919A4 machine gun. American technology was left fully leased by Lend-Lease - with equipment and even small arms for the crew.
                    1. 0
                      25 December 2012 15: 07
                      Quote: Karlsonn
                      Hello! Where were you?

                      You just don’t notice me))))))
                      1. 0
                        25 December 2012 17: 42
                        Kars laughing

                        you will not notice)))
                    2. 0
                      27 December 2012 06: 35
                      Karlsonn,
                      Super photo
                  3. 0
                    25 December 2012 15: 57
                    Quote: Kars
                    With resources of all Eurasia

                    Line Arkhangelsk - Astrakhan

                    Quote: Kars
                    And Stalin tried to squeeze EVERYTHING out of this, somewhere it happened that the Yankees were shocked when they saw that the piers of Arkhangelsk were lined with aluminum.

                    But the aircraft lining in flight pasted up.
                    No need to attribute credit to what in fact was a mess and mediocre management
                    1. +4
                      25 December 2012 16: 07
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      Line Arkhangelsk - Astrakhan

                      Yeah, of course, like the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. We would have reached in 1941 as planned, we would not have stopped. And even if the Ural Urals were the USSR whose ally she was? And Japan would not have stopped.
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      But the planes in flight stuck in the aircraft

                      All the same, they did not fly long.
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      No need to attribute credit to what in fact was a mess and mediocre management

                      Well, here the mess was vryatli, there were a lot of interesting questions in Lend Lease, for example, why did the USSR have a bunch of diesels for torpedo boats that were not built, and the Yankees had a shortage of them for high-rise facilities. This is just a snap.
                      1. -1
                        25 December 2012 21: 46
                        Quote: Kars
                        ha, of course, like the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia.

                        compared. They would not have the strength to control such a territory
                        Quote: Kars
                        for example, why did the USSR have a bunch of diesels for torpedo boats that were not built, and the Yankees had a shortage of them for high-rise facilities

                        it turns out they’ve done worse for themselves.?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well here the mess was vryatli

                        Sorry, if you have cardboard fighters sticking up in flight, and in Arkhangelsk there are heaps of luminium - this is a mess.
                      2. +1
                        25 December 2012 22: 15
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        compared. They would not have the strength to control such a territory

                        Oh, yes, of course, Siberia is a densely populated territory, partisans from Moscow do not send explosives. Did the Japanese in China somehow control the Germans in Europe?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        it turns out they’ve done worse for themselves.?

                        Well then, it was already clear that it was better for the USSR that the Yankees would not be planted, but how to say this?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Sorry, if you have cardboard fighters sticking up in flight, and in Arkhangelsk there are heaps of lumin - this is a mess

                        Well, aluminum would lie instead of Arkhangelsk in sheets, along the fields in the form of debris.
                      3. +1
                        26 December 2012 00: 35
                        Quote: Kars
                        The Japanese China somehow controlled?

                        There was a mess and war from the beginning of the 30's to the end of the 40's.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Oh yes of course Siberia is a densely populated territory

                        In some ways this is the advantage of the partisans)))
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, aluminum would lie instead of Arkhangelsk in sheets, along the fields in the form of debris.

                        With this logic, planes and tanks could not be released at all.
                      4. +1
                        26 December 2012 00: 48
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        There was a mess and war from the beginning of the 30's to the end of the 40's.

                        Like the USSR, for 20 years it was able to crush all national movements and radicals.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In some ways this is the advantage of the partisans)))

                        Yes, it’s just not a particular advantage, nutrition, replenishment. Intelligence is the minimum number of targets. Railway in the taiga is easier to guard, where each is an enemy of acupants and must be shot.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        With this logic, planes and tanks could not be released at all.

                        You misunderstand the logic. These debris before the death turned into debris more expensive mechanisms and their operators spent more time and money on training. And if you just didn’t let go then how to beat the enemy? It’s about how foolish the Germans were to do Panther with their limited resources, bet quality did not play in a total war.
                2. Suvorov000
                  +3
                  25 December 2012 15: 54
                  Eco your altroego is high in respect to America, the Germans fought on three fronts and kept to the last yes so that everyone had their ears cracked, and if they had the resources of Russia, I’m afraid that tigers with good steel would have gone in the thousands, unitary bombs on jet bombers, England if my mother didn’t have time to say how she would become a big bridgehead for the transfer of forces to America, and don’t forget, South America was very empathetic to the Germans, so here you have a second front for America, nuuuu and the Japanese would bite them on the third front
                3. +2
                  25 December 2012 16: 13
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  In the end, the rake would be from the United States

                  At that time, the USA was raking off the Japanese.
                  1. 0
                    25 December 2012 16: 26
                    Not long enough.
                    1. +2
                      25 December 2012 17: 17
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Not long enough.

                      Well, if by the winter of 1941 the USSR had been crushed, then the Americans would have had to fight not only in the Pacific, but also in the Atlantic Ocean, so that could not turn into a long enough. But this is one of many scenarios.
                      It could have happened that the hawk of Harry Es Truman would not have come to power in the USA
                      1. 0
                        25 December 2012 17: 35
                        Yes, most likely it would be so.
                4. 0
                  26 December 2012 13: 31
                  Do not forget Japan. With a successful blitzkrieg for Hitler, the alignment in the Pacific Ocean would also be different. Most likely not in favor of America.
            2. Suvorov000
              +2
              25 December 2012 15: 46
              Yeah, as they understood that it would not burn out, they joined right away, and they dragged on the second front for a long time, but as they sensed that we would get to the La Manche, we immediately climbed
            3. +2
              25 December 2012 21: 13
              Quote: Pimply
              Or did the USSR selflessly help someone?

              Egypt, Syria, Cuba, Vietnam ... continue?
              1. 0
                26 December 2012 00: 09
                Disinterestedly? Are you laughing? The USSR pursued its foreign policy interests there, creating a vector of pressure on the USA
                1. +2
                  14 November 2013 00: 03
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Disinterestedly? Are you laughing? The USSR pursued its foreign policy interests there, creating a vector of pressure on the USA

                  Something wafted with political information ... Only exactly the opposite.
        2. +1
          25 December 2012 14: 22
          The labor front, famously rose on this. (earned)
        3. +6
          25 December 2012 20: 11
          In general, I agree with all of the above, but this
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          And add here the US Labor Front - American industry supplied, fed, dressed and put on the entire Anti-Hitler Coalition.

          a little from the evil one. He had a labor front in our war when people had nothing to eat, when children staggering from hunger, whetted shells and bombs on machine tools, when women plowed and sowed fields on themselves. But the Americans simply worked, received money for their work, after the shift they went home or to a bar, successfully overcame their great depression and developed the economy.
        4. 0
          26 December 2012 13: 28
          The information is absolutely fabulous - the source is where, in the state congress? Seven hundred sunken boats is not even a fantasy, it is a disease. And, probably, Dresden was the center of industry in Germany? The source, please ...
      2. -9
        25 December 2012 13: 35
        I was always touched by the fairy tale about the Second Front. Type only in the 44th. Tell me, what would happen if the Anglo-Saxons did not bind the Germans in Africa and the Japanese in the East? Have not you thought? Or do we also rule out a landing in Sicily in 1943?
        1. +10
          25 December 2012 13: 42
          Quote: Pimply
          did not bind the Germans in Africa

          Oh, yes, the great corps of rommel, which was interrupted by equipment that the British threw at him.
          Quote: Pimply
          Or landing in Sicily in 1943, we also exclude

          The landing in Sicily and not, for example, in Solerno or Naples allowed the Germans to transfer about 10 divisions to the Eastern Front. The Yankees would make the USSR better if they did not land at all.
          Quote: Pimply
          and the Japanese - in the East?

          The East is generally a separate conversation, if the USSR had fought the battle of Moscow, then the Japanese would have attacked the USSR, and so they would have attacked the United States. But at the same time, the USSR kept a lot of troops in the east.
          1. 0
            25 December 2012 14: 23
            Well, Kars, I know your opinion - we will never agree on it.

            Yes, the USSR held a lot of troops in the East, no one argues. Only these troops had almost no loss except for illness, and the East was relatively covered.
            1. +8
              25 December 2012 15: 00
              Quote: Pimply
              Only these troops had almost no loss except for diseases

              Does this change anything? They were not at the front near Kharkov and Belgorod. Perhaps their absence, when surrounded by Stalingrad, refused to attack Rostov, which could end the war in early 1944.
            2. 0
              25 December 2012 17: 50
              Pimply

              Quote: Pimply
              Only these troops had almost no loss except for illness, and the East was relatively covered.


              (pulls a hand from the back of the desk)
              there was some decline:

              By June 22, 1941, the field directorate of the 16th Combined Arms Army, [184] 2 infantry and mechanized corps (2 infantry, 2 armored, motorized divisions and 2 separate regiments), and 2 airborne arrived from the Far Eastern Front and the Trans-Baikal Military District. - Airborne brigades - in total over 57 thousand people, more than 670 guns and mortars, 1070 light tanks and other forces and equipment. These troops participated in defensive operations in the Western and South-Western strategic directions in the first month of World War II.

              In the summer-autumn campaign of 1941, from the Far Eastern and Trans-Baikal fronts, the Stavka used 12 rifle, 5 tank and motorized divisions on the Soviet-German front - a total of more than 122 thousand people, more than 2 thousand guns and mortars, 2209 light tanks , over 12 thousand cars, 1500 tractors and tractors.
              1. +1
                25 December 2012 17: 53
                I had directly on the spot. There was still a decline in small border conflicts and so on.
                1. +1
                  25 December 2012 18: 04
                  Pimply

                  to train, equip, keep recruits instead of those sent to the front is also not an easy task.
                  1. +3
                    25 December 2012 18: 11
                    Did someone talk about an easy task? NEVER. My grandfather and great-grandfather passed that war, and even a bunch of relatives, and how many more were killed there. I never said and will not say - an easy task about that war
                    1. 0
                      25 December 2012 22: 00
                      absolutely agree. drinks
              2. 0
                25 December 2012 17: 53
                From December 5, 1941 to April 30, 1942, only two rifle divisions were transferred there from the Trans-Baikal Front, and a cavalry regiment from the Far East.

                In the summer and autumn of 1942, when the Wehrmacht fiercely rushed to the Volga and the Caucasus, the Japanese command again prepared to strike at the Soviet Far Eastern border. It was at that time that the military operations of his armed forces did not differ in activity either in the Pacific Ocean or in China. Meanwhile, the advance of the Nazi troops demanded new reserves. From May 1 to November 19, the Stavka transferred 10 rifle divisions from the Far East to the Stalingrad and South-Western fronts, 4 rifle brigades totaling about 150 thousand people, over 1600 guns and mortars, a large number of other weapons and military weapons to the Bryansk Front technicians.

                In the winter of 1942/43, only 1 rifle and 3 cavalry divisions, 6 howitzer artillery brigades and 3 mortar regiments with a total number of about 35 thousand people, 557 guns and mortars, 32 light tanks and other weapons were transferred from the Far East to the Stavka reserve. [185] In 1943, only 8 howitzer artillery brigades were formed from the Far East to the Soviet-German front, formed in March - May, with a total number of about 9 thousand people, more than 230 large-caliber field guns.

                The last regrouping of Soviet troops from the Far East was carried out during the summer-autumn campaign of 1944. It was an airborne brigade and four howitzer artillery regiments of high power.

                During the war years, 39 divisions, 21 brigades, and 10 regiments were redeployed to the Headquarters reserve from the ground forces of this group. Their total number was about 402 thousand people, over 5 thousand guns and mortars, more than 3300 tanks {482}.

                An important role in the defeat of Nazi Germany belongs to the sailors of the Pacific Fleet and the Red Banner Amur Flotilla. In 1941, 12 naval rifle brigades were formed from their composition. More than 140 thousand Pacific sailors fought in the ground forces on the Soviet-German front {483}. In 1941 - 1944 the existing Northern and Black Sea fleets were replenished with warships, as well as well-trained sailors and pilots of the Pacific Fleet.

                http://protown.ru/information/hide/5452.html
          2. 0
            25 December 2012 16: 00
            Quote: Kars
            The landing in Sicily and not, for example, in Solerno or Naples allowed the Germans to transfer about 10 divisions to the Eastern Front. The Yankees would make the USSR better if they did not land at all.

            190 Panthers arrived at Kursk, can you tell me where the rest of 100 Panzer-5 went? They were in Greece - it worked British intelligence.
        2. +8
          25 December 2012 13: 47
          Quote: Pimply
          Tell me, what would happen if the Anglo-Saxons did not bind the Germans in Africa,

          NOTHING, 20 Rommel divisions would not play a role.
          Quote: Pimply
          and the Japanese in the East?

          Also past, the Germans persuaded Japan to attack the USSR, but one of the Japanese generals (I don’t remember my last name) said. We received elementary education in Hassan, with Khalkhin Gol we got secondary education, we don’t want to get higher education. That was Germany’s answer.
          Quote: Pimply
          Or landing in Sicily in 1943, we also exclude

          Mushka on the map of the Great Warriors. Zhenya, how many divisions of the Allies landed in 1944 and compare with the forces of the Wehrmacht on the eastern front hi
          1. +2
            25 December 2012 14: 24
            Sasha, I compare everything perfectly. I do not like cheers-patriotism, either Russian, American or Israeli
            1. +5
              25 December 2012 14: 27
              Quote: Pimply
              Sasha, I compare everything perfectly.

              IIIiiiiiii, what-to what conclusions did you come? Hurray, patriotism is unacceptable, I just proceed from the realities of history and do not fantasize. And then we can assume, but what would happen if Stalin screwed up the amers at 45 belay
          2. -6
            25 December 2012 14: 29
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            20 Rommel divisions would not play a role

            German group "Africa" ​​(190 thousand people + 500 tanks).
            And if you add the 5-th Italian army and Libyan divisions?

            + Kriegsmarine

            + Reich Air Defense (1 / 3 of all Luftwaffe fighters)

            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Also past, the Germans persuaded Japan to attack the USSR, but one of the Japanese generals (I don’t remember the last name)

            And I remember. April 13 1941 Neutrality Pact between the USSR and Japan.

            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            under Khalkhin Gol we received secondary education

            What about the Tsushima pogrom?

            It was pointless for the Japanese to attack the USSR. They needed the resources of the East Indies (primarily oil), and not the Far Eastern Taiga.

            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            how many divisions of the allies were dressed up in 1944 and compare with the forces of the Wehrmacht on the eastern front

            In France there were 1,5 million German soldiers and their allies.
            1. +3
              25 December 2012 14: 54
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

              + Reich Air Defense (1 / 3 of all Luftwaffe fighters)

              If Rommel had so much aviation, he would have taken Cairo.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

              German group "Africa" ​​(190 thousand people + 500 tanks).
              And if you add the 5-th Italian army and Libyan divisions?

              I wrote above, the total strength of the Rommel military was 20 divisions. What is the question?
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              And I remember.

              What is your last name, or are you blurt out?
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              April 13, 1941. Neutrality pact between the USSR and Japan.

              Where was Japan to go after two defeats in a row.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              What about the Tsushima pogrom?

              And here is 1905?
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              It was pointless for the Japanese to attack the USSR.

              Really, the gut was thin and all.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

              In France there were 1,5 million German soldiers and their allies.

              Where did 100 divisions come from?
            2. +2
              25 December 2012 15: 08
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Africa "(190 thousand people + 500 tanks).
              And if you add the 5-th Italian army and Libyan divisions?

              So what, in 1942, under the Alameinov, only 90 gathered together with Italians?
        3. +5
          25 December 2012 14: 28
          Quote: Pimply
          I was always touched by the fairy tale about the Second Front. Type only in the 44th.

          The first American expeditionary force (55 thousand people supported by 500 tanks) landed in Algeria on 8 on November 1942.
          In October 1942, it was already clear that Hitler would not be able to win the battle of Stalingrad. There have already accumulated strength for the offensive.
          On October 7, a directive of the General Staff No. 170644 on conducting an offensive operation by two fronts surrounding the 6th Army was issued, the start of the operation is scheduled for October 20.
          About Sicily and Japan below, it is very clear, Kars described.
          There is another variant of the development of history - the "Warsaw Pact" from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean.
        4. +2
          25 December 2012 16: 30
          It’s as if it’s still worthwhile to estimate how much effort and allied allies could devote to open a second front in Europe, say in 1942,
          Considering the situation on the fronts of North Africa and the Pacific Ocean that was not too good for itself at that time.
      3. postman
        0
        26 December 2012 03: 22
        Quote: Middle Brother
        In 2006, Russia paid the debt to the Paris club.

        The PC was created in 1956; it is not related to Lend-Lease payments.
        And the debt was not paid to him but equal to $ 345? 5 million

        By July 1973, three payments of $ 48 million were made.
        New deadlines for final repayment of debt were established - 2030. According to the statement of the then Deputy Minister of Foreign Economic Relations of the USSR Yu.N. Chumakov, the amount of funds that must be returned for Lend-Lease deliveries equals $ 674 million.
    2. +1
      25 December 2012 11: 03
      I agree, sorry.
  6. +5
    25 December 2012 11: 25
    Quote: DYMITRY

    The article is good. But there is one BUT !!! If Lend Liz was paid for by military operations, then for what did the Soviet Union pay with gold until the middle of the 70's ??? Amers did not hesitate to invoice for each nut supplied.


    The volume of US Lend-Lease deliveries amounted to about 11 billion US dollars. According to the Lend-Lease Act, only equipment that survived the war was subject to payment; to agree on the final amount, immediately after the war, Soviet-American negotiations began. At the 1948 talks, Soviet representatives agreed to pay only a small amount and met the predicted failure of the American side. The negotiations of 1949 also led to nothing. In 1951, Americans twice reduced the amount of payment, which began to equal $ 800 million, but the Soviet side agreed to pay only $ 300 million [43]. According to the Soviet government, the calculation should not have been carried out in accordance with real debt, but on the basis of a precedent. This precedent should have been proportions in determining the debt between the United States and Great Britain, which were fixed in March 1946.
    An agreement with the USSR on the procedure for paying off debts under Lend-Lease was concluded only in 1972 [44]. Under this agreement, the USSR pledged to pay $ 2001 million, including interest, until 722. By July 1973, three payments were made for a total of $ 48 million, after which payments were discontinued due to the introduction of discriminatory measures by the American side in trade with the USSR (Jackson-Vanik Amendment). In June 1990, during negotiations between the presidents of the United States and the USSR, the parties returned to a discussion of the debt. [45] A new deadline for the final repayment of debt was set in 2030, and the amount was $ 674 million. [46]
    After the collapse of the USSR, the debt for help was reissued to Russia (Yeltsin, Kozyrev), as of 2003, Russia owed approximately 100 million US dollars. [47] [48]
    Thus, of the total volume of US Lend-Lease deliveries of $ 11 billion, the USSR, and then Russia, recognized and then partially paid, $ 722 million, or about 7%. However, it is worth considering that today's dollar is "lighter" than the 1945 dollar by about 15 times /

    Wiki is not fate to see?
    1. vyatom
      +3
      25 December 2012 11: 46
      We saved them anyway. So do not let them fuss.
  7. -17
    25 December 2012 11: 59
    I always liked the reasoning on the topic: what if the USSR attacked the USA in 1945? Would we defeat the damned Yankees and become the rulers of the world?

    Based on the facts that during the war years the American industry produced more tanks and planes than all the factories of the USSR and the Third Reich combined, the answer seems very simple: in case of an attack on US troops in Europe, the Soviet Union would disappear from the world map in a few months . We did not have a share of the necessary resources to truly fight the United States.
    1. DYMITRY
      +17
      25 December 2012 12: 34
      Rave!!! Options for continuing military operations on a European theater were discussed. And here a lot of options arose. There were no, and could not be, options for invasion of the USA, for the simple reason, the absence of landing craft, even in the minimum necessary quantity. If such ships were available, the United States would cease to exist within 1-2 weeks. Due to the lack of an army in the metropolis.
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      The Soviet Union would disappear from the world map in a few months.

      The author of this deep thought, Dr. Goebbels? Even if the amers gathered all the troops from all the theater, plus the Britons threw everything that they have the superiority of the Soviet army would be overwhelming. Rommel in one corps drove the entire British army for three years with rags with rags across Africa. The remaining European armies by the 45th year de facto ceased to exist !!! And those 3 bombs that the United States had could not fundamentally change the situation. If their analysts considered that there was a chance to cope with the USSR, military operations would begin immediately !!!!!!!
      1. -17
        25 December 2012 12: 50
        Quote: DYMITRY
        If such ships were available, the United States would cease to exist within 1-2 weeks.

        The composition of the US Navy for 1945 year:
        - 130 aircraft carriers;
        - 60 battleships and cruisers;
        - 400 destroyers;
        Still have questions?

        Quote: DYMITRY
        Due to the lack of an army in the metropolis

        Yes Yes)))

        Quote: DYMITRY
        Rommel in one corps the entire British army for three years with pissed rags

        For what I love cheers-patriots - this is for the carbonic distortion of facts))))
        Rommel and Italians lost 900 thousand people (killed and prisoners)
        The British and Americans - 200 thousand killed

        Quote: DYMITRY
        Even if the amers gathered all the troops from all the theater, plus the Britons threw everything that they have the superiority of the Soviet army would be overwhelming.

        Production of cars and trucks during the war years:
        USSR - 152 thousand units
        USA - 5 Millions pcs.

        Tank production during the war years:
        USSR - 90 thousand units
        USA - 200 thousand units

        Aircraft production during the war:
        USSR - 130 thousand units
        USA - 287 thousand units

        Quote: DYMITRY
        And those 3 bombs that the United States had

        Enough carpet bombing of Baku oil fields

        The USSR did not have a single chance to win that war
        1. +10
          25 December 2012 13: 23
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          The composition of the US Navy for 1945: - 130 aircraft carriers; - 60 battleships and cruisers; - 400 destroyers; still have questions?

          Remained: and where would they be able to apply all this in Europe? Well, yes, well, yes, battleships and aircraft carriers in the Alps is cool.
          1. -7
            25 December 2012 13: 47
            Quote: revnagan
            <130 aircraft carriers; - 60 battleships and cruisers; - 400 destroyers> and where in Europe could they apply all this? Well, yes, well, yes, battleships and aircraft carriers in the Alps are cool.

            It is sad that people confuse land with the sea.

            The US industry has released 200 thousand units of armored vehicles - more than the USSR and the Treich Reich taken together.

            On airplanes the same picture - the USSR produced 36 thousand Il-2 single-engine attack aircraft. During the war years, the United States produced 36 four-engine Flying Fortresses. So compare the scales.
            1. +5
              25 December 2012 21: 30
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              It is sad that people confuse land with the sea.

              Yeah, I'm so stupid. You talk about the power of the US Navy what kind of theater against the USSR could this power be realized?
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              The US industry has released 200 thousand units of armored vehicles - more than the USSR and the Treich Reich taken together.

              And how many of this number were "Stuarts" and "Lee"? By the way, at the end of 1941, the Wehrmacht also had an overwhelming superiority in tanks and aviation. And at the same time they saw Moscow through binoculars. How did it all end?
            2. Filin
              0
              26 December 2012 02: 17
              SWEET_SIXTEEN


              Where do you get these numbers ?? Do you come up with chtoli yourself? Sat an hour
              and looked for all possible info on the production of all military products during WWII by all participating countries.

              The US industry has released 200 thousand units of armored vehicles - more than the USSR and the Treich Reich taken together.


              The number of produced equipment;
              USSR -105,251 (92,595)
              USA - 88,410 (71,067)
              Germany - 46,857 (37,794)
              In brackets are tanks and self-propelled guns with a caliber over 75 mm.
              WHERE AND WHERE 200 thousand ???

              On airplanes the same picture - the USSR produced 36 thousand Il-2 single-engine attack aircraft. During the war years, the United States produced 36 four-engine Flying Fortresses. So compare the scales.


              Well, the United States did not have a good attack aircraft at all during the entire war. There was only "Douglas" carrier-based attack aircraft SBD / A-24 "Dauntless", but it is more of a dive bomber. A little over 5000 pieces were produced. Had bad nicknames and a bad reputation.
              IL -2 released 36130.
          2. postman
            -2
            26 December 2012 00: 26
            Quote: revnagan
            Remained: and where would they be able to apply all this in Europe?

            Would provide a landing in Normandy or Greece, or Norway or Turkey (European part)
            Quote: revnagan
            aircraft carriers in the Alps is cool.

            By the beginning of the 40s, the human resources of British imeria are about 640 million people, only UK + USA + technology
            1. +1
              26 December 2012 14: 46
              and ... you do not confuse anything? 640 million - 1 fifth of the planet’s population at that time. Britain and the USA ... well. You probably counted with the elderly, women and children?
              1. 0
                26 December 2012 14: 59
                As if at that time, Britain had a huge number of dominions and countries within the Commonwealth. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India
              2. postman
                0
                28 December 2012 02: 36
                Quote: Temer
                and ... you do not confuse anything? 640 million -

                460 million chips.
                Although to be accurate 458 million people. (So) 000/000 of the world's population

                DO NOT THINK why English is the most common in transport, trade, banks, business, and everywhere it can say something
                Pax Britannica

                Observe the picture by year:


                List of the largest states in history
      2. -15
        25 December 2012 13: 39
        The atomic bomb appeared in the USSR only in 1949. In 1945, the Americans already had it. The probability of their victory after this we will consider?
        1. +4
          25 December 2012 14: 10
          Quote: Pimply
          The atomic bomb appeared in the USSR only in 1949. In 1945, the Americans already had it. The probability of their victory after this we will consider?

          So try to imagine such a situation. Where could amers throw a bomb? Could you deliver her to her destination?
          1. -5
            25 December 2012 14: 25
            In principle - yes, they could. Given how efficiently they bombed Germany, which had good air defense
            1. +5
              25 December 2012 15: 46
              Quote: Pimply

              In principle - yes, they could. Given how efficiently they bombed Germany, which had good air defense

              Given that the bulk of the fighters fought in the sky with the pilots of the USSR, they could effectively bomb.
              1. -3
                25 December 2012 16: 01
                Sasha. And again by.
            2. +4
              25 December 2012 15: 54
              Quote: Pimply
              In principle - yes, they could. Given how efficiently they bombed Germany, which had good air defense

              You did not catch the main point in my question. The USSR is not Germany. The territories are huge. Therefore, the first question is where to strike.
              The bombing of a provincial town would not have the same effect as in a relatively small and densely populated Japan.
              In addition, one thing is the air defense of a warring country, all of whose forces are pulled to the front lines.
              And quite another - the hypothetical situation we are considering in the post-war period.
              1. -2
                25 December 2012 16: 04
                I agree, there would be a stalemate. Moreover, with the Soviet system of government, and a moral upsurge. But the USSR would be very, very much hurt.
                And the bombing would be the same in Moscow. Leningrad (God forbid).
                Glory to Gd, all this did not happen. In fact, it is sickening to even consider hypothetically. Real parity was established between the USSR and the States only in the second half of the 60s.
                1. +6
                  25 December 2012 16: 15
                  Quote: Pimply
                  And the bombing would be the same in Moscow. Leningrad (God forbid).

                  If the border began from the English Channel, then they would certainly not have flown to Moscow.
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Real parity was established between the USSR and the States only in the second half of the 60s.

                  The United States gained a foothold on the European continent and Turkey, and the USSR would not have to keep such huge groups of troops in Europe and build tanks in the thousands when the oceans would separate us from the USA. Germany would not be divided. nuclear weapons in Holland and Turkey.
                  1. postman
                    -2
                    26 December 2012 00: 59
                    Quote: Kars
                    If the border began from the English Channel, then they would certainly not have flown to Moscow.

                    ?
                    The distance from London to Moscow is 2490 km. Minimum airfare from London to Moscow (round trip):

                    - 13 p. * (Direct flight)
                    - 7 381 p. * (With change)


                    What about Norway?


                    In 1953, the first U.S. tactical nuclear weapon was tested -
                    an atomic shell for a 280-mm cannon, followed by the use of shells for self-propelled howitzers of 203 mm and 155 mm caliber. Then, tactical and operational tactical missiles with nuclear warheads entered service.
                    In 1954, an order was issued in the United States for the development of the first land-based long-range ballistic missile; intensive work soon began to improve and quantitatively increase the arsenal of such missiles.
                    In early 1956, US President D. Eisenhower approved a plan to create a marine strategic nuclear missile system, which envisages its implementation in three stages with increasing the combat capabilities of both missiles and missile submarines.
                    1. +2
                      26 December 2012 01: 10
                      Quote: Postman
                      The distance from London to Moscow is 2490 km.

                      And all over the hostile territory, so that they would fly away.
                      As the author writes
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      In the case of B-10s flying at 29 km, the bomber pilots will not even notice the "Stalin's falcons". And if you take into account the thunderball escort, there is no chance of interception

                      they don’t have a great chance to fly 2000 km under constant attacks, even if not the best planes.
                      1. postman
                        0
                        26 December 2012 01: 28
                        Quote: Kars
                        And all over the hostile territory, so that they would fly away.

                        How to intercept?

                        That hostile territory presented itself from itself, something like:
                      2. 0
                        26 December 2012 01: 48
                        All that is possible.
                        And from the hostile territory special qualities are not necessary, the Yak-9 is not particularly picky about the airfield, anti-aircraft guns are easier to hide in ruins.
                        And the truth is the raid on Berlin from the English airfields is easier than the same but on Moscow?
                        And the zones simply reflect the difference in tactics of using aviation; there were few high-altitude bombers on our front.
                      3. postman
                        0
                        26 December 2012 02: 18
                        Quote: Kars
                        Yak-9 is not particularly demanding

                        That is yes. but MTO YAK-9? and exacting to height.
                        Quote: Kars
                        And the truth is the raid on Berlin from the English airfields is easier than the same but on Moscow

                        And who argues that.
                        Have you ever wondered why no B-17s were supplied to us under the "Lend Lease"
                        (not to mention B-29) and Lancaster is the same.
                        ?
                      4. postman
                        +1
                        28 December 2012 02: 27
                        Quote: Kars
                        And from a hostile territory special qualities are not necessary

                        England-Denmark, Sweden, Baltic: I want to see MPVO
                      5. 0
                        28 December 2012 02: 44
                        Quote: Postman
                        Denmark, Sweden, Baltic: I want to see MPVO

                        Well, let them be bombed, it won’t bring any special emotions. It’s good to camouflage fighter airfields, not to arrange large clusters.

                        Like some general from the Air Force when the offensive in Normandy stalled --- that for every km of the road to Berlin they are not able to drop 1000 tons of bombs ..

                        The strategic bombing of Germany was not one year, but it was impossible to break its power, it was necessary to reach Berlin. And the USSR has large open spaces.
                      6. postman
                        0
                        26 December 2012 03: 08
                        Quote: Kars
                        they don’t have big chances to fly 2000 km under constant blows

                        By the way, another question is how to fly.

                        Molotov flew:



                        And the Germans at that time oh how strong they were. And the radar already had.
                      7. 0
                        26 December 2012 03: 40
                        Quote: Postman
                        but MTO YAK-9? and exacting to height

                        Is this an insoluble task? Being weak in aviation, having a working ceiling does not mean that at least for a short time the fighter will not rise to B-29 level.
                        Quote: Postman
                        And the Germans at that time oh how strong they were. And the radar already had

                        A single plane, not a 7th air army.
                        In addition to Moscow and Leningrad, all the same, there were no explicit goals for A-bombs, and it was quite possible to provide air defense of precisely these cities, and bombs were not megaton.
                      8. postman
                        0
                        26 December 2012 21: 34
                        Quote: Kars
                        does not mean that at least for a short time the fighter will not rise to the level of B-29.

                        Here the point is that you need to "accelerate" in the right place (and fly to it, and so as not to burn the fuel, calculate), and so on. After "climbed" to the height, aim and hit. I am not a pilot, but it seems not so easy.
                        At 10000m you need a suit and an oxygen mask.

                        Quote: Kars
                        In addition to Moscow and Leningrad, there were still no explicit goals for A-bombs

                        Refineries and they are within reach. Hydroelectric power plants, thermal power plants, Baku fields (by the way, you’re wrong: the surface will shift the beds, but even if not, the mouth will be destroyed, but how can I recover under such a background? (
                      9. +2
                        14 November 2013 18: 06
                        Quote: m
                        And the Germans at that time oh how strong they were. And the radar already had.

                        The German radar system ... I beg you, as they say about Odessa.
            3. +1
              25 December 2012 22: 34
              Quote: Pimply
              Given how efficiently they bombed Germany, which had good air defense

              By the end of 45, the Americans had something like 100 aircraft capable of atomic bombing in Europe. This is not so much, given the USSR's fighter fleet and the experience of the air war.
              1. +2
                26 December 2012 00: 11
                Well, firstly, the United States’s ability to produce aircraft was much greater, do not forget. And cutting them in a short time was not so difficult. And see for yourself how efficiently the Allied aviation acted, and what ceiling those very 100 aircraft had.
                1. +1
                  26 December 2012 00: 53
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Well, first of all, the possibilities of the States


                  this is what i understand good I'm in a good way if cho feel
                  drinks
            4. +3
              26 December 2012 14: 47
              Well, our distant bombers bombed Berlin very efficiently in 41m, but nobody really wants to remember about it.
          2. -2
            25 December 2012 14: 31
            Quote: Flood
            Where could amers throw a bomb?

            Baku, Leningrad
            Quote: Flood
            Could you deliver her to her destination?

            Without any doubt.
        2. +3
          25 December 2012 15: 45
          Quote: Pimply
          The probability of their victory after this we will consider?

          We can calculate the probability of a breakthrough of the bombers. Through the fighters of the USSR of that time, what are the chances?
          1. -2
            25 December 2012 16: 06
            Yes, high, Sash, taking into account what kind of bombers they had, and taking into account their number. Do you think nothing after the war was so hastily copied from the Americans and hastily tried to catch them? Real parity was established only in the second half of the 60s
            1. +4
              25 December 2012 16: 17
              Quote: Pimply
              Yes, high, Sash, taking into account what kind of bombers they had, and taking into account their number

              But not everyone will have an A-bomb, and there were losses even during the bombing of Germany in 1944-45. Yes, and ranges would change.
              1. 0
                25 December 2012 16: 41
                I don’t argue. Just remember, for example, about the B-29.
                1. +3
                  25 December 2012 16: 45
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Just remember, for example, about the B-29.

                  And what to remember? Let's remember that they decided to launch attacks on Japan when the air defense of the Japans lived for a long time, and even in such conditions they managed to miss from the planned place of impact in both cases.
                  Well, in Korea, you can remember the B-29.
                2. +3
                  25 December 2012 16: 49
                  Quote: Pimply

                  I don’t argue. Just remember, for example, about the B-29.

                  Zhenya, we will remember with pleasure wink
                  The USSR won the first round of the air-nuclear war from the USA. Even the day of this victory is known - April 12, 1951.

                  That day, forty-eight American B-29s, under cover of eighty fighter jets, rushed from Korea to the sky of China - to wipe out the hydroelectric station on the Yalu River and the Andun Bridge from the face of the earth.

                  If the Americans that day crushed from the air the crossings over the Yalu River, through which flows of goods and troops went to the front from China, the war in Korea would be won by the Americans.

                  But they were met by the MiG-15 of the Soviet 64th Fighter Corps, entering into fierce battles. Then the Yankees will call this day “Black Thursday”.

                  With “twinkles”, 10 B-29 “super-fortresses” and two F-80 cover fighters were shot down, severely damaging a dozen B-29s. At the same time, Soviet pilots did not lose a single aircraft!

                  The second rout to the Americans was arranged on October 30, 1951. At Yaluzyan, Soviet fighters shot down twelve B-29s and four F-84 fighter jets, losing only one MiG-15.
                  1. 0
                    25 December 2012 17: 06
                    Sash, we are talking about 1945.
                    1. +2
                      25 December 2012 17: 19
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Sash, we are talking about 1945.

                      I understand, but then we did not shoot down B 29 for obvious reasons, but the essence would not have changed. We will compare the losses and understand how it would all end for US aviation
                      1. 0
                        25 December 2012 17: 35
                        Sasha, look at the ceiling of the fighters of that time. And detection capabilities
                      2. +2
                        25 December 2012 17: 37
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Sasha, look at the ceiling of the fighters of that time. And detection capabilities

                        Eugene, both of these arguments did not prevent the Luftwaffe from knocking down those famous B 29
                      3. -2
                        25 December 2012 17: 40
                        In what quantities, Sash. And with the right approach, escort fighters took the brunts.
                      4. 0
                        25 December 2012 17: 54
                        Quote: Pimply

                        In what quantities, Sash

                        It’s already one in the morning, I’m too lazy to search, but the losses were B 29, and considering that at the end the soldiers were German pilots (ASs in Russia burned out), the result is more than obvious. And look at Korea. B 29 covered 80 fighters Well, it really didn’t help.
                      5. +2
                        25 December 2012 18: 05
                        Quote: Pimply
                        In what quantities, Sash. And with the right approach, escort fighters took the brunt


                        And if you look at the length of the active route? Will it be closer or shorter when you strike Moscow or Chelyabinsk? Using England as an airfield or Italy.
                        there are no problems with the B-29 in the box, even with old radars.

                        As for the ceiling, the USSR simply had no need to intercept high-altitude targets, but there was some sort of Yak high-altitude, so they could do something, then the high-altitude route is not cruising altitude, there will be more fuel consumption in theory. Well, the USSR has no goals for AB that would bring some sort of great damage. Besides the moral.
                      6. +2
                        14 November 2013 20: 52
                        I do not understand the meaning of this strange discussion, but one thought comes to my mind. From time immemorial, whoever didn’t perceive Russia-Russia, and at the same time, everyone believed that THEY had the best, US did not have anything worthwhile. And everyone raked.
                        That's about this alter-mentation: we really did not have high-altitude fighters at that time. But if such a problem became, then they would have appeared. I don’t know who would have made them: Yakovlev, Mikoyan with Gurevich or Lavochkin (he personally impressed me) - but I know for sure: they would have done it very quickly, and Americans would have been completely robbed.
                        And the fact that it would have cost millions more lives - no one argues. But I think that it would be worse (there is no need to talk about it better): to crush these Masons beyond their oceans and now live like that. how do we rightfully deserve it, or then breed polites, so that now they squeezed out the last juices from us and even mocked OUR Victory? The difficult dilemma ...
                      7. +3
                        25 December 2012 18: 12
                        Did the B-29s take part in the bombing of Germany? Maybe all the same B-17?
                      8. 0
                        25 December 2012 19: 53
                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        Eugene, both of these arguments did not prevent the Luftwaffe from knocking down those famous B 29


                        1. B-29 did not fight over the Reich. Germany was bombed by the old B-17.

                        2. Even as they interfere. With the use of fighter escort, the loss of American fortresses decreased to a few%.
              2. postman
                -1
                26 December 2012 01: 18
                Quote: Kars
                But not everyone will have an A-bomb, and losses, even during the bombing of Germany in 1944-45

                You are talking about the B-29, and since 1957 they had the B-47
                Cruising 980 km / h and an altitude of over 10 km. (There is a certain ambiguity with the definition of the "stratojet" flight ceiling, different sources call different numbers - and 10 100 m, and 10 500 m, and 11 900 m, and even 13 500 m for the lightest modification under the index B-47A )
                And what would they shoot down with?
                RS-1U, RS-2U?
                Captain Vasily Polyakov, who first destroyed the RB-47 in the summer of 1960, used his MiG-19 cannons to attack.
                Carrier?
                The Stratojet was practically invulnerable to the Soviet MiG-15 and -17, which at that time formed the basis of the USSR fighter aircraft fleet. In order not to be shot down by a Soviet interceptor, the "forty-seventh" needed only not to approach closer to 150 km to the airfields of air defense fighter bases.

                The maneuvering Stratojet simply did not allow the MiG-15 to get into its tail for an attack, since the Soviet interceptor did not have enough speed reserve for this. In most cases, when the airspace of the USSR was violated by RB-47 aircraft, our interceptors did not even fly into the air due to the senselessness of attempts to intercept.
                1. +2
                  26 December 2012 01: 32
                  Quote: Postman
                  You are talking about the B-29, and since 1957 they had the B-47

                  To 57 still need to live.
                  Here I at least say that in 1945 it was EXACTLY in 1945 that the USSR could throw Anglo-Americans off European content and block Italy.


                  And then a difficult alternative begins.
                  Quote: Postman
                  the "forty-seventh" only needed to stay away from the airfields of the air defense fighters, closer than 150 km.

                  This vryatli emu made life easier when hitting Moscow, Leningrad and other large objects. Or even then he had missiles with nuclear warheads with a range of 150-300 km.
                  1. postman
                    +1
                    26 December 2012 02: 03
                    Quote: Kars
                    1945 USSR could dump


                    Unthinkable (ratio)
                    Appendix II - Russian forces and their disposition
                    Appendix III - Allied Forces and Their Disposition
                    For you in Ukrainian ... a joke, in Russian:
                    https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Udv-CFbRIU7snxpdvPvzQsD-iKUvJSCsy8POakG
                    Hvzm
                    Original:
                    http://web.archive.org/web/20101116152301/http://www.history.neu.edu/PRO2/
                    Very far away and very sacrificial.
                    Quote: Kars
                    This vryatli emu made life easier when hitting Moscow,

                    So it was still necessary to find ...., successfully reach the target ... and hit with Bortao weapons (which was not)
                    "Metamorphoses of combat training of Soviet fighter aircraft in the postwar period", I. Kartashev, Z. Nikitin and P. Chernysh (all three colonels, military pilots of the 1st class)
                    In August 1953, the British Canberra reconnaissance aircraft with the latest American camera on board carried out reconnaissance of the missile range in Kapustin Yar. The flight took place at altitudes of 13 m and higher along the route Prague-Kiev-Kharkov-river Volga-Caspian Sea-Iran. During this flight, English pilots witnessed how Mig-15 fighter jets that climbed from different airfields to intercept them entered battle with each other - the planes apparently belonged to different military units and poor coordination of air defense services led to the fact that the pilots were not warned of joint actions.
                    Cap Yar Shooting in 1953 (with B-47)
                    1. +2
                      26 December 2012 03: 36
                      Quote: Postman
                      Very far and very sacrificial

                      I immediately said this, but not impossible. And it was in 1945-46, despite the fact that there were more American troops. The enemy was more demoralized, the hostages, the Americans didn’t even closely resemble the Stalingrad or Korsun-Shevchenko boiler, but this is the maximum option - - as they say without any rules - though so. And the bomb does not fit into them.

                      But as we see the ogre, as many call him Stalin, didn’t do this, and this was the last real chance for a world communist Empire.
            2. +3
              25 December 2012 16: 44
              Quote: Pimply
              what kind of bombers did they have, and

              And how many Germans beat them, even with a small number of fighters, not a few.
              Quote: Pimply
              Do you think nothing after the war was so hastily copied from the Americans and hastily tried to catch them?

              Well, here it was a retaliatory strike, and we are talking about the possibility of a breakthrough of the B 29 through fighters of the USSR. There are not many chances, given the experience of our pilots and the number of fighters.
              1. 0
                25 December 2012 17: 07
                Sash, once again - look at the situation at the end of the war, and, specifically, at the ceilings of the same b-29
                1. +3
                  25 December 2012 17: 21
                  Quote: Pimply

                  Sash, once again - look at the situation at the end of the war, and, specifically, at the ceilings of the same b-29

                  And what is wrong? There is a small warrior, and if large-scale using all the forces of the USSR Air Force, then the number of B 29 would quickly go to zero hi
                  1. 0
                    25 December 2012 17: 35
                    Commented above
                2. +3
                  25 December 2012 17: 35
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Sash, once again - look at the situation at the end of the war, and, specifically, at the ceilings of the same b-29

                  And what about the ceilings? In 1945, these ceilings easily reached the Yak-3PD - High-altitude fighter, I-221-225 so there was no problem with this. Both in height and in speed.
              2. -4
                25 December 2012 17: 51
                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                And how many Germans beat them, even with a small number of fighters, not a few.

                The Germans were bombed by the obsolete B-17 and B-24.
                The Germans were able to bring down only a few%.

                The entire Reich air defense system was found to be ineffective.

                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                We are talking about the possibility of breaking the 29 B through fighters of the USSR. There are not many chances, given the experience of our pilots and the number of fighters.

                And taking into account the performance characteristics of Soviet fighters? wink
                1. +4
                  25 December 2012 18: 01
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  The Germans were bombed by the obsolete B-17 and B-24.
                  The Germans were able to bring down only a few%.

                  By B 17 hi
                  The first air raid on August 17, 1943 did not lead to sufficient destruction of the plants, about 230 Luftwaffe fighters were sent to intercept 17 B-300 aircraft. 36 aircraft with 360 crew members on board were shot down. In total, together with those shot down earlier on the same day during the raid on Regensburg, the losses amounted to 60 B-17 units.
                  The second attempt on October 14, 1943 was soon called Black Thursday [36]. Of the 291 attacking Fortresses, 59 were shot down over Germany, one drowned in the English Channel, 5 crashed in England and 12 were decommissioned due to combat or landing damage. A total of 77 cars were lost. 122 bombers in need of repair. Of the 2900 crew, 650 did not return to base, some of them were captured. 5 were killed and 43 injured from aircraft returning to airfields, 594 were reported as missing. Only 33 B-17s returned without damage.
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  And taking into account the performance characteristics of Soviet fighters?

                  It says above about Korea, you can wink once more, only now to yourself wink
                  1. -1
                    25 December 2012 18: 12
                    Sash, and then the tactical changes
                    1. +2
                      25 December 2012 18: 20
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Sash, and then the tactical changes

                      And as I wrote above, the peak of industrial arms production in Germany was marked by an Akurat in 1944. And by the rate of production of the same armored vehicles in the first months of 1945, as such, a sharp decline was imperceptible.
                      Especially industry suffers from a shortage of raw materials and workers who were called up for military service.
                  2. -2
                    25 December 2012 19: 49
                    Quote: Alexander Romanov
                    The first air raid on 17 on August 1943 did not lead to sufficient destruction of the plants; about 230 Luftwaffe fighters were sent to intercept 17 B-300 aircraft. Xnumx


                    Very witty.
                    300 FV-190 vs 230 B17 without fighter cover

                    In the case of B-10s flying at 29 km, the bomber pilots will not even notice the "Stalin's falcons". And if you take into account the thunderball escort, there is no chance of interception. (To exclude further distortion on your part, I will indicate the time period - the end of the 40s.)

                    Quote: Alexander Romanov
                    It says above about Korea, you can wink once more, only now to yourself

                    Before blinking, read again what is written there.
                    This is a famous battle - the MiG-15 fought with the F-84. and obsolete by then piston B-29.

                    It would be a great result if ours shot down B-29s on piston La-7s - machines of the same age. Otherwise, everything turns into an anecdote about "Stalin's falcons" who actually shot outdated cars and have been rattling about their super-victory for 50 years.

                    If you want to know the real state of things - check out the air battle over the Kola Peninsula, 8 on May 1954 of the year:
                    TWO SHELVES MIG-15 ALL DAY CHASED FOR B-47, but could not intercept a single bomber.

                    http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/xussr/airfight/airfight.html
                    1. -7
                      25 December 2012 20: 51
                      Well, why so tear the pattern of cheers-patriots ??? Pity them at least a little bit)))
                      1. +1
                        26 December 2012 04: 15
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        Well, why so tear the pattern of cheers-patriots?

                        You would have changed the avatars and the flag to American, otherwise the pilots are bad, the planes are bad, the Americans have better ones. And the fact that ours were beaten like dogs is bullshit, do not pay attention. wink
                    2. +2
                      25 December 2012 21: 09
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      In the case of B-10s flying at 29 km, the bomber pilots will not even notice the "Stalin's falcons".



                      During the war with Japan, the American B-29 was discovered by two pairs of Yak-9 aircraft, intercepted and fired at the Kanko Korean airport, where the Soviet, 14th Pacific Air Force fighter regiment was based. As a result of the shelling, the leftmost engine caught fire at B-29, and he immediately landed at the Kanko airfield
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      who actually shot obsolete cars and have been banging their super-victory for 50 years

                      The Americans are not behind this, which for thousands of MiG-21s over Vietnam and thousands of T-72s in the sands of Kuwait burn in the Discovery tapes for a year.
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      at 10 km B-29, bomber pilots will not even notice "Stalin's falcons"

                      And why only 10 km? Is it reachable for La-7 and Mig-3. And is there a difference in range at different flight heights?
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      TWO SHELF MIG-15 ALL DAY CHASED B-47, but could not intercept a single bomber

                      This case was explained to you, but you still didn’t understand anything.
                      1. 0
                        26 December 2012 04: 18
                        Quote: Kars

                        And why only 10 km? It is reachable for La-7 and Mig-3.

                        For him, the American bombers are the best and you will not prove anything else.
                        Quote: Kars
                        This case was explained to you, but you still didn’t understand anything.

                        Well, not given laughing
                    3. 0
                      26 December 2012 04: 08
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

                      Very witty.
                      300 FV-190 vs 230 B17 without fighter cover

                      This is to the British, they sent planes without interruption.
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      In the case of B-10s flying 29 km, the bomber pilots will not even notice the "Stalin's falcons"

                      C'mon, what is the height of high-altitude fighters of the USSR for 45 years?
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      This is a famous battle - the MiG-15 fought with the F-84. and obsolete by then piston B-29.

                      Horseradish dancer, always eggs interfere.
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      Otherwise, everything turns into an anecdote about "Stalin's falcons"

                      Probably the surviving American pilots, laughed at this joke, returning to base.
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      FOR B-47

                      It's about B 29,
                2. postman
                  +1
                  28 December 2012 01: 19
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  The entire Reich air defense system was found to be ineffective.

                  I would like to add it (the German air defense system) was very "rich" and one of the most modern. This guy got margarine with bread for a different reason:

                  The Kammhuber Line
                  Radar "Würzburg" and "Freya", searchlights, anti-aircraft towers of the Luftwaffe

                  Guns
                  3,7 cm FlaK 43
                  2 cm Gebirgsflak 38
                  10,5 cm FlaK 38/39
                  12,8 cm Flak 40
                  Automated communication fire control system
                  Bf 109
                  Fw-190
                  Fw-190A-8 in "Sturmbock" variant
                  Wa 349

                  Fieseler Fi 103R Reichenberg

                  Not 162 "Salamander"
                  Ho XVIII-IX Go 229
                  Me 163 "Comet"
                  Me 262 "Schwalbe"
                  SAM: "Enzian", "Feuerrili", "Reintochter", "Schmetterling", "Wasserfall"

                  Air defense fleet.
                  And?
                  And nothing! Bombed like on a conveyor belt
                  1. +2
                    14 November 2013 21: 46
                    Me 163 "Comet"

                    I apologize, but with all due respect - der ... well, not a single plane was shot down, but they destroyed their pilots with enviable regularity and constancy.
            3. +1
              25 December 2012 22: 59
              Quote: Pimply
              Yes, high, Sash, taking into account what kind of bombers they had, and taking into account their number.

              By 1950, the Americans managed to do something about 450 pcs. nuclear carrier aircraft. The Americans were justifiably afraid that such a number of aircraft would not be enough to win. The fact is that not every aircraft will carry and drop an atomic bomb. The shortage of both the bombs themselves and their carriers from the United States to ensure victory in the atomic war in the late 40s and early 50s was one of the decisive factors that this war did not take place.
              1. -2
                26 December 2012 00: 13
                There were a lot of factors. If you really consider the situation - it’s stalemate, there was no need to wait for victory over the USSR. But then to deliver a serious blow, to demoralize, to seriously bleed - the Americans at that time, yes, they could. A certain parity was established much later.
                1. 0
                  26 December 2012 00: 52
                  Quote: Pimply
                  victory over the USSR there did not have to wait

                  Then what are we arguing about?
                  1. -5
                    26 December 2012 01: 22
                    Did anyone argue about the fact that the USSR would be able to defeat ???? Here, as always, on the one hand, cheers-patriotic citizens who are ready to throw all their hats on, and people on the other hand, are more calm ...
                    1. +2
                      26 December 2012 01: 34
                      Quote: mehanik27
                      Then someone argued about the fact that the Soviet Union could defeat ????

                      Who is here?
                      I am wildly sorry, but I argue with the citizens Popyrchaty and the Author about specific things.
                      1. -3
                        26 December 2012 01: 39
                        Kars,

                        Quote: Pimply
                        victory over the USSR there did not have to wait
                        Kars

                        Then what are we arguing about?

                        I understood everything ... here is your result about the dispute ????
                      2. +1
                        26 December 2012 01: 43
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        here is your result about the dispute ????

                        This is an intermediate stage, which shows that the USSR, according to someone's estimates, is not the easiest prey.
                        And the result - it has been voiced for a long time--
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Well, Kars, I know your opinion - we will never agree on it.
                      3. DYMITRY
                        +1
                        26 December 2012 08: 21
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        I understood everything ... here is your result about the dispute ????

                        The dispute began with this phrase of the American cheer patriot:
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        in the event of an attack on US troops in Europe, the Soviet Union would disappear from the world map in a few months.

                        He was explained that such an option is possible only in the inflamed consciousness of Dr. Goebbels
                      4. 0
                        26 December 2012 14: 19
                        In fact, such an option would still be possible. One of. At that time, the USSR was seriously weakened, despite the fact that it was already actively dominating the war, and the US military-industrial potential was much higher. However, there were too many additional factors.
                      5. -4
                        26 December 2012 15: 32
                        Well, he does not look much like an American cheer patriot ... and the option, although unlikely, would have been possible. Everything here gives the numbers of aircraft, submarines, but they forget that the USSR was undermined by the war, he had huge losses. And if if something started in Europe, then everything would be against us ... And they would have forgotten about the Germans immediately., and they would have started to fight with us too .. And Poland with great pleasure, and Czechoslovakia and so on. Thank God that none of the allies decided on such a step.
                      6. +1
                        26 December 2012 04: 23
                        I do not argue. I simply argue that at a certain stage of the USSR, with all its large army, it was weaker in a number of ways and would have suffered significant damage, possibly more than from the Germans.
                      7. +1
                        26 December 2012 14: 34
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I simply argue that at a certain stage of the USSR, with all its large army, it was weaker in a number of ways and would have suffered significant damage

                        It was weaker, would have suffered damage, but would have won Europe. At the same time, it would have prevented the development of the Marshall plan and the dominance of the dollar in the world.
                      8. +1
                        26 December 2012 14: 37
                        As for winning Europe - a moot point. In fact, it’s almost impossible to calculate - there are too many additional factors.
                      9. -1
                        26 December 2012 15: 33
                        Yeah, considering that all of Europe would be against the USSR, it would be very difficult to win
                      10. +1
                        26 December 2012 15: 41
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        Yeah, considering that all of Europe would be against the USSR

                        Are you all Europe? Was the case in 1941 wrong? And before that, ALL Europe was against the Germans.
                        As we know, Romania in 1945 became an ally of the USSR from Germany’s ally.
                        So ring, your argument is not accepted.
                        In 1945, the European army of the Wehrmacht was broken and crushed.
                        The USSR repeats the motifs of the German Arden offensive operation, with a large fuel supply and more tailored armored vehicles, a large number of aircraft - and the American-British troops recognize what real boilers are, not Bastogne.
                      11. 0
                        26 December 2012 15: 46
                        And what would prevent Romania from turning over again and becoming an ally of the United States ??? I think that if they ate began to fight against each other, then they would lure all the USA and England to their side ... Poland would be the first to jump. Those same Vlasov would be warmed and sent back to the battle against the USSR, and the remaining parts of the Wehrmacht there too ... yes, there are a lot of people. as if you yourself do not know what the Europeans have a changeable mood. Today they are with us, and tomorrow against us.
                      12. +1
                        26 December 2012 15: 53
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        And that would hurt

                        You start to make me laugh.
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        cross over again and become an ally of the United States ???

                        themselves are not able to understand? for this in the territory of Romania should be US troops.
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        Poland would be the first to jump

                        just jumped right? something in the real history she could not do this, like half of Germany.
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        who, as if you yourself don’t know, what Europeans have a changeable mood

                        their mood decides whose troops will begin mass shots faster.
                        As for the Wehrmacht, this option was provided by Churchill. But the USSR also had Paulus, you know this? Plus stretched communications to the American when they rushed to Berlin without meeting resistance as such.
                      13. -1
                        26 December 2012 15: 59
                        It’s one thing when our troops are on the territory of a friendly or neutral state, and another thing is when the population of this state is hostile towards you. And I think the Americans would provide the right mood. The first shots would only help them and accelerate their appearance hostility to the USSR.
                        Poland didn’t jump, because nobody needed it, the Americans would want to use it, it would jump like a pretty one.
                        And what would Paulus do ???
                      14. 0
                        26 December 2012 16: 07
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        It’s one thing when

                        Are you on purpose :?
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        on the territory of a friendly or neutral state, and it’s another matter when the population of this state is hostile to you

                        Germans were in France for 4 years more than Norway, Denmark, and WHAT?
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        if only they would help them and hasten the emergence of hostility towards the USSR

                        is it someone should be driven?
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        because no one needed her, if the Americans would like to use her, she would bounce on as cute.

                        oh, it looks like you are one more holy believer in the omnipotent United States? probably the poland government in england was just kept there? and the uprising in warsaw from london just started like that? and the communist government of poland czechoslovakia and so on didn't bother anyone.
                        Quote: mehanik27
                        to make Paulus ???

                        Do you know what he did in the USSR? And about the same what Keitel could do.
            4. 0
              27 December 2012 06: 44
              absolutely agree.
          2. postman
            0
            26 December 2012 01: 11
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            We can calculate the probability of a breakthrough of bombers. Through fighters of the USSR

            Practically = 100%. How to intercept and how to shoot down?

            On October 15, 1952, two "stratojets" invaded Soviet airspace near Wrangel Island.
            In August 1953, the British Canberra reconnaissance aircraft with the latest American camera on board carried out reconnaissance of the missile range in Kapustin Yar.

            On April 29, 1954, a group of three RB-47 reconnaissance aircraft carrying mixed Anglo-American crews made a daring raid along the route Novgorod-Smolensk-Kiev.
            from 4 to 9 July 1956. Every day, their "stratojets" invaded the western regions of the USSR to a depth of 350 km, entering from Poland or the Baltic Sea.

            1956 "home run" Between March 21 and May 10, "Stratojet" reconnaissance aircraft of various modifications made at least 156 deep incursions into Soviet airspace in the Kola Peninsula, the Urals and Siberia. A total of 21 reconnaissance aircraft and up to 15 tanker aircraft were involved in the operation; thanks to the use of the latter, the flight range of the Stratojets increased from 6,5 thousand km. up to 9,4 thousand km. and even more depending on the number of refueling in flight.

            RB-47 was first shot down in the summer of 1960 (when such an aircraft was shot down in the area of ​​Cape Kanin Nos)
            American RC-47 reconnaissance aircraft in the second half of the 50s easily and naturally flew to the Uralcherez North Pole
            On May 6, 1956, the flight from Ambarchik to Anadyr and back was made 6 "Stratojets" at once
            1. 0
              26 December 2012 04: 21
              Quote: Postman

              Practically = 100%. How to intercept and how to shoot down?

              Quote: Postman

              On October 15, 1952, two "stratojets" invaded Soviet airspace near Wrangel Island

              How and what brought down B 29 in the 50s is written above in the comments.
              1. -1
                26 December 2012 14: 21
                Sasha. The 50s. You would have brought the 90s. We are talking about the interval 1945-1947, and this situation is considered. The USSR subsequently, through tremendous efforts, managed to build power so as to establish a certain parity.
              2. postman
                -1
                26 December 2012 22: 19
                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                How and what brought down B 29 in the 50s is written above in the comments.

                1.I would be better statistics, document

                about the role of the B-29 in the Korean War, and the most frequently repeated comments state that "MiGs knocked them out of heaven."
                In fact, these statements are very far from the truth. A report provided by the FEAF Bomber Command shows that during the Korean conflict only 16 B-29s were lost from the actions of enemy fighters, 4 from anti-aircraft battery fire, and 14 of the combat losses were related to other causes, thus giving a figure of the total combat losses of 34 vehicles. [/I]
                2. I wrote about B-47 (start of operation May 1951 (fifties)
                ERB-47H Stratojet (reg. Number 53-4281) was shot down by the Soviet pilot Vasily Polyakov on the MiG-19 over the Barents Sea July 1, 1960
                + project MX-1457 Brass Ring
                And forties:

                Boeing B-29 Superfortress (1943-1946)
                Command Decision (ser. Number 44-87657) - an aircraft whose side gunners gained five air victories over MiG-15 fighters during the Korean War.
                Boeing B-50 Superfortress (1947 = 1953)
                North American B-45 Tornado (1947) = Practical ceiling: 12 m
                Convair B-36 (1948) = Practical ceiling: 15 m
                And this is op Germany
            2. DYMITRY
              +1
              26 December 2012 08: 23
              Quote: Postman
              Practically = 100%. How to intercept and how to shoot down?

              Let me remind you again: we are talking about the year 1945 !!!!!
              1. postman
                -1
                28 December 2012 01: 24
                Quote: DYMITRY
                Let me remind you again: we are talking about the year 1945 !!!!!

                I already answered
                B-29 Command Decision (ser. Number 44-87657) - aircraft, whose side shooting won five air victories over fighter MiG-15 during the Korean war.
                I hope the presence of the B-29 in 1945 is not denied?
                And I oppose MIG-15.
                We look at the performance characteristics of the Yak, La and B-29, try to detect (by something), put out the target, try to rise to the cruising height and ...

                watch Analisys of B-29 losses
        3. Misantrop
          +5
          25 December 2012 18: 14
          Quote: Pimply
          The atomic bomb appeared in the USSR only in 1949. In 1945, the Americans already had it.
          The Americans had THREE bombs. One of them (for verification) rushed to Alamogordo, de threw off to Japan. And their own nuclear weapons appeared in 1950 already, and even then, not at the first attempt. The statements they made earlier were a grand bluff
        4. +2
          25 December 2012 21: 25
          Quote: Pimply
          The atomic bomb appeared in the USSR only in 1949. In 1945, the Americans already had it. The probability of their victory after this we will consider?

          Let’s: how many times was the attack on the USSR delayed arrogantly-Saxons and why?
          A-bomb, in Amer’s 1945, was a piece of goods. Enrichment was very slow. Amer analysts considered that 3 A-bombs were not enough to win. And with the growth of A-bombs, the industrial power of the USSR also grew. attacked that there was no 100% certainty of victory.
        5. +1
          25 December 2012 22: 31
          Quote: Pimply
          The atomic bomb appeared in the USSR only in 1949. In 1945, the Americans already had it. The probability of their victory after this we will consider?

          You can not count a lot. By August 45th, the Americans had no more banal atomic bombs (after Japan). And until the age of 48 they made another approx. 20 such bombs. Yes, and the means of delivery of these bombs was quite a finite number (something about 200 aircraft). Although Americans resisted not weakly, to squeeze the Union. But did not have time. And if they could, they would certainly attack. Otherwise, why were there so many bombs to rivet then?
          Those. the USSR still had some reserve of time and maneuver. Europe certainly would have mastered, plowed and sowed. Well, there they made their bombs. True, with carriers it would be more difficult. But the Germans would probably help. Although, what is there to fantasize?
          History does not know the subjunctive mood.
        6. postman
          0
          26 December 2012 00: 44
          Quote: Pimply
          The atomic bomb appeared in the USSR only in 1949.

          Actually like a bomb later
          and the carrier?
          The next "tower" explosion took place on September 24, 1951.
          Tu-4A (5100km) made 3 pieces only at the end of 1949
          On October 18, 1951, the Maria bomb was dropped with an RDS-3 charge with a capacity of about 30 kilotons.
          Tu-16 in 1953
          ============
          US Air Force. In 1947, parts of the NAC had 148 V-29 vehicles. Some of them were based in Europe on the British Isles.

          RV-47 to 1/3 1960 UNFILUNGEDLY FLYING OVER THE TERRITORY OF THE USSR
          Single and group flights
          1. +2
            26 December 2012 01: 01
            All the same, before the appearance of ICBMs and charges of hundreds of kilotons. The nuclear weapon was, as Stalin said (at least I might confuse) - a paper tiger.
            And the skating rink of the Soviet tank armies was already in the center of Europe, from which the United States was keen to earn profits and spend on WWII and had already launched the Marshall plan.
            1. postman
              0
              26 December 2012 01: 44
              Quote: Kars
              the nuclear weapon was, as Stalin said (although I may confuse it) - a paper tiger

              Purely calculated no (see the number of YABs from the USA), you know the number of bombs dropped daily on Germany. You would bomb, enter the Baltic, destroy Murmansk and Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok and occupy the Black Sea.
              The Americans released more ships a week than the Japanese drowned in a month (if I'm not mistaken already in 1943)
              played a role:
              the people of the world are tired of war
              - to drop a bomb on the aggressor (Japan) is one thing, and to drop BOMBS on the USSR (the liberator of Europe) is another. Who would (public) support this? who would go to war?
              - ours (Stalin and Khrushchev of course) talented misinformed everyone about our capabilities.
              Only this saved.

              Here are the “neutral” data on building up the nuclear potential of the Stockholm Peace Institute (SIPPRY).
              U.S.:
              1946: 125 carriers (9 bombs),
              1947: 270 carriers (13 bombs),
              1948: 473 carriers (50 bombs),
              1949: 447 carriers (200 bombs),
              1950: 462 carriers (400 bombs),
              1951: 569 carriers (569 bombs),
              1952: 660 carriers (660 bombs),
              1953: 720 carriers (878 bombs),
              1954: 1035 carriers (1418 bombs),
              1955: 1260 carriers (1755 bombs),
              1956: 1470 carriers (2123 bombs),
              1957: 1605 carriers (2460 bombs),
              1958: 1620 carriers (2610 bombs),
              1959: 1551 carriers (2496 bombs),
              1960: 1559 carriers (3127 bombs),
              1961: 1532 carriers (3110 bombs),
              THE USSR:
              Until 1956 - one zeros
              1956: 22 carriers (84 bombs),
              1957: 28 carriers (102 bombs),
              1958: 56 carriers (186 bombs),
              1959: 108 carriers (283 bombs),
              1960: 138 carriers (354 bombs),
              1961: 187 carriers (423 bombs),
              1. +1
                26 December 2012 01: 56
                Quote: Postman
                they would enter the Baltic Sea, destroy Murmansk and Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok, and occupy the Black Sea.

                As I already wrote, attacks on ports did not bring much sense - from whom should convoys be expected?
                As for the Black Sea --- Galipoli would be repeated, in extreme cases, the Bosphorus would somehow block.
                Quote: Postman
                the people of the world are tired of war

                especially the American and Canadian peoples.
                Quote: Postman
                1946: 125 carriers (9 bombs),
                1947: 270 carriers (13 bombs

                It is nothing against the USSR.

                Further, of course, it is more difficult, but it is not necessary to neglect the aviation of the USSR in such a way. And Europe, which the USSR would definitely turn into a desert.

                Quote: Postman
                ours (Stalin and Khrushchev of course) talented misinformed everyone about our capabilities.
                Only this saved.

                And another question - what will it give? Where is the money?
                1. postman
                  0
                  26 December 2012 02: 15
                  Quote: Kars
                  And another question - what will it give? Where is the money?

                  We are conducting a purely theoretical debate. I am sure (from our side that from them) - there were no idiots. The war would not have begun. And the United States would not be able to economically resist (then).
                  The destruction of the Baku deposits (well, and Romanian at the same time) -and that's all.
                  Do not forget about chemistry, rubber (depriving yourself of UK supplies), something else (I don’t remember).
                  1. Kaa
                    +3
                    26 December 2012 02: 19
                    Quote: Postman
                    We are conducting a purely theoretical debate. I am sure (from our side that from them) - there were no idiots. The war would not have begun

                    To all participants in a fascinating discussion:
                    "Comrade Stalin walked around the office, and thoughtfully poked his pipe at his interlocutor:
                    - And what, fellow Zhukov, do you want V to ride your tanks right to the English Channel?
                    - Affiget! - only could say Zhukov. No, he knew how to ride tanks and loved, but the time was not very suitable. The war has just ended, the loss of the army amounted to at least 7 million people, and taking into account those killed in captivity - and all ten. And plus about the same number of civilians. The soldiers and officers were eager to go home, and even the upcoming pushing of Japan created serious problems in this sense. Those who were present during the conversation, Molotov and Beria also said “Affiget!”, Zhukov simply said louder. Beria said “Affiget” because such adventures (and information available from the intelligence, in particular on the atomic project of the Americans) said that this was an adventure squared. Or in a cube) were uncharacteristic for Stalin. At one time, he did not dare to “Big Saturn”, limiting himself to a small, although the Soviet General Staff, and, as it turned out later, Manstein considered the operation quite feasible. Stalin did not rush to Berlin in January 45th, preferring to first secure the flanks. And here - the Raz- and the English Channel. Molotov said “Affiget” because such a decision did not at all correspond to the state of the economy - half of the country is in ruins. And besides, it smelled like Trotskyism - export of revolution, all things ... Apparently, all at once thought of Trotskyism. The ice ax was not in the office. I had to use the full power of communist theory. “Capital” weighs 3 kilograms, and the teachings of Marx, as you know, are omnipotent. Patamushta right, yeah. Who exactly lowered the tome to the back of the Leader’s head remained a mystery - the Leader himself received short-term amnesia (exactly from the moment when the above thought crossed his mind), and the rest were modestly silent. To avoid. In short, the English Channel question has been removed. Comrade Stalin was demoted from the Generalissimo to the Marshal of the Soviet Union, but for what - he could not, and did not want to, because the subconscious connected this fact with some kind of cosmic scale stupidity. So he went to Potsdam in a simple marshal's uniform. In Potsdam he was met by (already) Truman and (so far) Churchill. Truman was cheerful and showered with sparkling ideas.
                    “Do you know, Marshal Stalin (can I just call you Uncle Joe?), We have such a wonderful General Patton in the army.” He already poured Jerry and now swears that by the new year he will reach the Volga! Great idea, right? I don’t give a damn that we should finally get even with the Japs for Pearl Harbor, spit on China and the British inheritance - count it, dude - it's cool - take a walk right up to the Volga! Affiget, right?
                    1. Kaa
                      +1
                      26 December 2012 02: 22
                      Quote: Kaa
                      Affiget, right?

                      - Yes Yes Yes! Sir Winston supported Truman, “We also don't give a damn that all the copper door handles are screwed in the Tower, and we don’t give a damn about the treasury. And the fact that we have food on the cards. And the fact that the empire is pouring in front of our eyes is also on the drum. But check it out, Marshal, what plan I came up with! And the name is “Not-Cape-Lee-Mo-E”! ABOUT! By the way, I have already taken some steps. Let me introduce you our new ally!
                      Keitel, who had become quite cheerful in comparison with the night of May 8-9, entered the office. Going up to the table, he snapped his heels in a snappy manner, took a harmonica from his pocket and, not without skill, sang the German folk song “Ah, Mine Liber Augustine”.
                      - See, Marshal? Currently, we have already formed 50 divisions from prisoners who are ready to protect European civilization from the invasion of Asian-Bolshevik hordes! In short, Marshal. The USSR has done its job, the USSR may leave. The German people in the person of Mr. Keitel demands respect for his legitimate interests.
                      Stalin puffed smoke from the pipe and turned to Mikołajczyk, who was modestly standing in a corner:
                      - Or maybe the Gaspadin Mykolaychik will tell us his opinion? Maybe the Polish people also demand respect for their legitimate interests?
                      - Affiget! - Mikołajczyk vividly responded (they hadn’t given him a word before), “of course, the Polish people also demand respect for their interests!” - The prime minister of the London government, not looking up, looked at Keitel, “Tell me, Marshal,” he turned to Stalin, “do you have a couple of completely unnecessary tank armies in reserve?” Could you place them with us in Poland? Just in case? - Lily Marlene burst out the window - to the beat of forged boots on the paving stones - No! Better four!
                      - Affiget! - Benesh shouted out the window, not invited to the meeting, - As many as four! Is he printing these armies on Xerox ?! In the end, we were the first to suffer! Two armies to you, four to us! We undertake to pay for their maintenance ... Within reasonable limits ... Maybe we will agree on an installment plan?
                      There were enough armies for everyone. Even to Hungary and Romania, who were not particularly asked for - but they were not specifically asked. Yes, the removal of captured property from Germany had to be carried out at a fire pace, in synchronism with the withdrawal of troops - but the Czechs riveted machine tools, “Hetzer” and “Me-262” clones not for fear, but for conscience. And when the AKovtsy who came out of the forests began to sort things out with people from the Ludova Army, the corresponding unit of the Polish Army was taken on an excursion to the western border. A fifteen-minute listening to the Augustin coming from that side dramatically improved the team’s moral climate. At the same time, some minor problems were solved - the Polish expert commission traveled to Katyn and dug up a jacket in the indicated place with a newspaper in its pocket dated June 21, 41. What is satisfied. Still, four tank armies are four tank armies.
                      The French traveled for sharp impressions not to the western border, but to the eastern one. They did not get the captured Panthers (they all went to the reviving Bundeswehrmacht), so the Normandy veterans flew through Sweden to Moscow to negotiate the supplies of the T-34-85. Just in case, yeah. Well, yes, the Germans now have the Potsdam Republic. But the Hitlers, as you know, come and go - and the German people remain. Moreover, which is characteristic, all the same.
                      1. Kaa
                        +2
                        26 December 2012 02: 24
                        Quote: Kaa
                        the German people remain. Moreover, which is characteristic, all the same.

                        The Japanese also traveled to Moscow to negotiate the supply of oil and aircraft in exchange for battleships. Battleships Stalin did not need nafig - but he managed to get half of Sakhalin - to get it back. In a good way - it is always better than in a bad way. On September 6, the Americans demolished Hiroshima by edrenbaton (“Affiget!” - said the Japanese general staff), and on the 9th, a single “Super Fortress” on the approach to Nagasaki was attacked by a large group of aircraft that had never been seen before in the Pacific Theater. Having received 37mm in the center section from a long distance, the plane fell to the ground. It was rumored that a fighter pilot attacked with a somewhat strange cry, “Tenno haiku bonsai!” And his name, Toyama Tokanawa, was chosen in honor of the rural road that he ran to a neighboring village to school in his youth. Something extremely interesting was found in the wreckage of the B-29, and the interrogation of the pilots, carried out with all eastern politeness, provided the Japanese intelligence with even more valuable information. It became clear that you shouldn’t worry before the 46th, but then something needs to be done. The Czech Me-262 (and then the Russian MiG-9) and kerosene were expensive for them, in the political sense, but the Kwantung Army was still needed on the Islands. Meanwhile, a delegation from the Middle East arrived in Poland. Having visited Auschwitz, the guests traveled to the border with Germany and listened to Augustine. They did not say anything, but soon several more hotels with British officers took off in the vicinity of Jerusalem. One of the visitors went to relatives in the States. After heated discussion in a narrow circle, a significant part of the Manhattan project staff (with the same, characteristic, 5th point) decided to relax in Tijuana. True, they didn’t really like the Mexican climate, so after a while they settled a little north - some in Chelyabinsk-50, some in Arzamas-16. As a result, the Soviet atomic bomb exploded already in 1948. Senator McCarthy was happy - finally, anti-American figures had a clearly defined sign! The resolution on the Middle East was blocked, and the internal climate in the United States (prohibitions on professions, rumors of deportation to Alaska) made many Jews think that the vicinity of Birobidzhan was not such a bad place. Crimea, of course, is better - but the Germans have already arrived there twice, do we need it? The climate there is not sugar - but Jewish kibbutzniks didn’t even fight that. Moreover, the religious orthodox parishes of the Messiah have not yet recorded - so you can wait with Jerusalem. In short, Georgia has a strong apple and tangerine competitor. How did they manage to agree with the climate - Gd knows. With Japan, the British and Americans were busy until the end of the 47th. Meanwhile, Mao drove Chiang Kai-shek to Taiwan without interference, and Kim Il Sung built People’s Korea without any particular problems. Lyapota! Poles, Czechs and others, in the changed situation, were not going to rebel. So Sovietization was not required. Themselves. Voluntarily. With a song. Stimulus patamushta. From the West. The fateful volume of Capital was repeatedly used for its intended purpose. Only in Khrushchev it was used at least 4 times - in 53 (peppy party discussion), 54 (Crimea), 56 and 61 (congresses of the CPSU). Western Sovietologists did not record any use according to Brezhnev, but Leonid Ilyich stopped at the 2nd Golden Star and possessed impeccable diction for the rest of his life. They say he put the volume under the pillow. Option "Bam" or a volume of "Capital" http://wolfschanze.livejournal.com/207162.html
                      2. +2
                        26 December 2012 03: 06
                        I propose to put an end to the reasoning who could win and leave the victory for us --- we all want rockets in the mines and pipets - we won !!! drinks
                        of course there will be no planet, but victory will remain with us hi .
                      3. DYMITRY
                        +2
                        26 December 2012 08: 35
                        Quote: Kaa
                        Option "Bam" or a volume of "Capital"

                        Bravo!!! The mood in the morning at 5+ raised))) hi
                  2. +2
                    26 December 2012 03: 20
                    Quote: Postman
                    We are having a purely theoretical debate

                    Then, theoretically, all the chances to restore the German plants for the production of synthetic gasoline are theoretically. So why the Romanians did not destroy earlier if it is so simple?
                    Quote: Postman
                    Do not forget about chemistry, rubber (UK was supplying itself

                    Germany, for some 6 years, managed to cope with rather dense isolation, and here the USSR and non-justice, knock the enemy out of the continent, a strike from the Adriatic and Italy is unlikely due to the terrain and poor transport connectivity. It’s possible that the German and American German vehicles (they were lovers of throwing everything), with the punching of tanks to transfer efforts to aviation. Well and further a complete alternative. It cannot be denied that such events are likely.
                    1. postman
                      -2
                      26 December 2012 21: 54
                      Quote: Kars
                      Germany managed to do this for almost 6 years

                      At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, there was a boom in demand for natural rubber, which rubber plants could not satisfy in Brazil, and then in Southeast Asia and the Congo. Demand creates supply. Natural rubber has a competitor - synthetic rubber.

                      Synthesis of synthetic rubber was first carried out by the German chemist Dr. Fritz Hoffmann (photo 1) at Farbenfabriken, formerly Friedr. Bayer & Co. (Elberfeld city). Corresponding patent No. 250 690 for “Method for the production of artificial rubber” was granted by the Imperial Patent Office on September 12, 1909, only four weeks after its opening. Hoffmann's technology was used during the First World War for the industrial production of ebonite, and later it became the basis for the production of styrene butadiene rubber, which since 1938 began to be produced in Germany on an industrial scale.

                      On June 21, 1929, IG Farben received the first patent for its method of copolymerizing butadiene and styrene under the name BUNA. This name comes from the first letters of the words butadiene and natrium. The copolymerization of styrene with butadiene in an aqueous emulsion, the German chemists Walter Bock and Eduard Chunkur developed a cost-effective technology for the production of rubber BUNA®S, and a year later Helmut Kleiner, Erich Konrad and E. Chunkur received non-swelling acrylonitrile butadiene rubber rubber BUNA®N and NUN rubber products.

                      These important steps towards the mass production of synthetic rubber were complemented by the discovery of the influence on rubbers of such auxiliary components as antioxidants, vulcanization accelerators, fillers. The industrial production of BUNA®S synthetic rubber in Germany was launched in 1936 (Schkopau). Before the end of World War II, the total capacity of the group of companies producing synthetic rubber was 170 thousand tons per year.

                      The first tires for passenger cars with a tread from BUNA®S were shown at the automobile exhibition in Berlin in 1936 and aroused great interest. Their mileage was 36 thousand km, and the natural rubber tire mileage was only 29 thousand km. The world's first passenger car tires and small truck tires based on BUNA®S (100%) were launched in 1942.

                      After the end of World War II, German enterprises were forbidden to produce synthetic rubber.

                      about cast iron, steel and steel additives you know better than me on German armor
                      Scrap metal has already been taken out of France, and Germany’s debt to Romania and Hungary on clearing transactions exceeded all reasonable.
                      + smuggling:
                      Sweden, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey ...
              2. DYMITRY
                0
                26 December 2012 08: 28
                Quote: Postman
                Until 1956 - one zeros

                The question is what did the "neutral" "experts" smoke?
                From 1949 to 1956, more than 20 test bombings were conducted. Do you seriously consider the Soviet leadership impassable idiots that ALL nuclear weapons put to the test? As for the carriers, the TU-4 was put into service in 1949.
                1. postman
                  +1
                  28 December 2012 02: 00
                  Quote: DYMITRY
                  The question is what did the "neutral" "experts" smoke?
                  From 1949 to 1956, more than 20 test bombings were conducted.
                  Umilolo. Who composed this nonsense?
                  I do not know what the experts are, but you would cut it, she’s more.
                  Read at your leisure:
                  Testing of nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons for peaceful purposes of the USSR 1949-1990, Ministry of the Russian Federation for AE of the RF Ministry of Defense, RFNC-FNIIEF 1996, Professor V, N, Mikhailov
                  Although "the book is designed for expertsengaged in nuclear technology, "but bearable, tolerant.
                  Label below

                  To finally "smoke2 the absurdity of such statements, look
                  Enriched Uranium Reserves in the USSR in 1949-1990
                  Weapon-grade plutonium stockpiles there on the same dates.

                  Quote: DYMITRY
                  Do you seriously consider the Soviet leadership impassable idiots that ALL nuclear weapons put to the test?

                  I consider the Soviet leadership to be talented manipulators and counterfeiters (in the good sense of the word), NOT ABOUT THE CURRENT POLYURKI, who think only of their purses.
                  Until 1963, the whole world was drifted. Bluff, but what kind.
                  True to the Caribbean Crisis, the US already knew the true state of affairs. And did not back down.
                  Quote: DYMITRY
                  As for the carriers, the TU-4 was put into service in 1949.

                  Tu4 clone B-29 (with the worst LTX.
                  3 pieces only at the end of 1949
                  In reality, we managed to push the bomb into it ONLY at 10.1951, before that all the "tower explosions" (2a in my opinion)
                  Look at the LTH and figure out WHERE he could fly (even taking into account that there is no need to return) and what he could "convey" to the goal.
                  And also what opposed him:
                  in 1945 - continental aviation command (30 radar stations and 20 fighter squadrons)
                  Pinetree Line - 1950 to 1954
                  McGill Fence by 1957
                  Dew-The third line of long-range radar warning contained a transcontinental radar circuit by 1957.
                  I will not continue further, in view of the meaninglessness
                  1. Alex 241
                    0
                    28 December 2012 02: 06
                    Tactical and technical characteristics of the aircraft:
                    Year of adoption - 1947
                    Wingspan - 40,05 m
                    Length - 30,18 m
                    Wing area - 161,7 m2
                    Weight, kg
                    - empty aircraft - 32270
                    - normal takeoff - 47500
                    - maximum take-off - 66000
                    Engine Type - 4 x ASh-73TK
                    Thrust - 4 x 2000 kgf
                    Speed, km / h
                    - maximum - 558
                    Flight range - 5100 km
                    Take-off run - 960 m
                    Mileage - 1070 m
                    Practical ceiling - 11200 m
                    Crew - 11 pax

                    Armament: Small arms - initially 10 UB machine guns (12,7 mm), then 10 B-20E guns of 20 mm caliber and later NS-23 (23 mm) in five towers - two in the front cockpit, one in the rear, one behind it and one in the aft cabin, bomb load of 6000-8000 kg (6-8 FAB-1000).
                    1. Alex 241
                      +1
                      28 December 2012 02: 08
                      ..................................................
                    2. postman
                      +1
                      28 December 2012 02: 25
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      Year of adoption - 1947

                      1st flight 06.1947 (N.S. Rybko), state tests completed in 1948
                      immediately laid the head series of twenty cars
                      third car was lost due to engine fire
                      engine ASH-73TK -fires
                      Propellers (on the "four" the propeller even collapsed, and the blades, flying away, damaged the wing and the adjacent engine nacelle)
                      Available in long-range aviation since 1949.
                      AND ONE MORE TRAINING IS NECESSARY !! Or not?

                      Quote: Alex 241
                      Tactical and technical characteristics of the aircraft:

                      Distance Europe-America.
                      I will give you a Mercedes and the whole AvtoVAZ- collect an analog, but not 1nuyu thing, but a series.
                      Will he go?
                      Practical ceiling: 12 m (with a combat weight)
                      Practical range: 6380 km Ferry range: 8321 km (with maximum fuel supply, without bombs)
                      =================
                      and guns, yes. right
                      1. Alex 241
                        +1
                        28 December 2012 02: 42
                        There was such a bike: Stalin asked Beria: Can we make Mercedes? He answers: We can, but only one.
                      2. postman
                        +1
                        28 December 2012 03: 47
                        Yes exactly.
                        Now imagine a plane .....
      3. +7
        25 December 2012 13: 43
        Quote: DYMITRY
        If their analysts considered that there was a chance to cope with the USSR, military operations would begin immediately !!!!!!!

        +1
        Some American figure had a quote that was close in meaning
    2. +8
      25 December 2012 12: 55
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      Based on the facts that during the war years, American industry produced more tanks and aircraft

      Tanks and planes are not all.

      In 1945 there were chances to throw the Yankees from Eurasia, though it was still necessary to have millions of lives and a difficult political game with the conversion of Romanians, Bulgarians, Germans to war.

      In the case of a meat grinder, Amenikan units would not be stable, this confirms the experience of the initial period of the Pacific War and post-war Korea and Vietnam, and in principle it would be difficult to argue for American soldiers to die in faraway Europe for no reason.
      1. -5
        25 December 2012 13: 08
        Quote: Kars
        In 1945 there were chances to throw the Yankees from Eurasia, though it was still necessary to have millions of lives and a difficult political game with the conversion of Romanians, Bulgarians, Germans to war.

        Tales about "the revival of German industry and the transformation of Germans into slaves" do not roll - by May 1945 all industrial facilities in Germany were destroyed, destroyed or flooded, the population fled. They will take years to recover.
        Only a few units remained from the Kriegsmarine submarines - it is useless to hope for German submariners.
        Japan will not succeed in attracting - even if the Emperor is evacuated, after the 5 bombing of Tokyo there will be sensible people who will take power into their own hands and make peace.
        Romanians are still that ally, especially in the war with the United States)))
        Lend-lease this time will not be, but there will be bombing of oil fields in Baku

        Quote: Kars
        In the case of a meat grinder, Amenikan parts would not be stable, this is confirmed by experience

        Nevertheless, as the Germans were knocked out of Africa, the Mussolini ridge was straw-baked and reached Berlin.

        Do not forget, in the event of a war with the Union, they would have on their side technical superiority and complete supremacy at sea and in the air. Plus endless resources and super industry.
        1. +9
          25 December 2012 13: 35
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Tales about "the revival of German industry and the transformation of Germans into slaves" do not roll - by May 1945

          Of course, it was destroyed, so destroyed that the peak of the production of equipment fell on 1944 and it became clear to everyone that strategic bombing was a bluff, and attacks on residential neighborhoods began. Some plants were destroyed 3-4 times, and the Fritzes restored them over and over again.
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Only a few units remain from the Kriegsmarine submarines - it is useless to hope for German submariners

          This is how much if not a secret? 407? (You sent me the signs yourself))))))))
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Japan will not succeed in attracting - even if the Emperor is evacuated, after the 5th bombing of Tokyo there are sensible people who will take power into their own hands and make peace
          She herself would not give up while the Kwantung group was intact, and if the USSR began to throw up resources. Yes, they only needed manpower, which was almost unaffected in island battles.

          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Lend-lease this time will not be, but there will be bombing of oil fields in Baku

          The USSR will take Iran even faster, and shuttle raids over the USSR will not be allowed by American bombers, by the way, therefore, they must be dropped from the continent. And there are German factories for the production of synthetic gasoline from coal.
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Nevertheless, the Germans were knocked out of Africa somehow.

          This is the full merit of the FLEET OF HER Majesty and tossing with iron and meat - the Montgomery butcher is worse than Zhukov.
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Straw Mussolini Ridge and reached Berlin
          At the same time, they fussed around Montekasino for six months, and they came to Berlin because the Fritz liked the Yankees sdovatsa more (they still did not know about Eisenhower's camps, but they knew about Russian frosts)
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          supremacy at sea

          Who needs it if the convoys still will not be?
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          in the air

          This is a very controversial moment.
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Plus endless resources and super industry.

          But this does not happen. Especially when there is not even a hint of a quick end to the conflict.
          1. -3
            25 December 2012 14: 08
            Quote: Kars
            so destroyed that the peak of the production of technology fell on 1944

            You yourself know very well that this is a false figure - the "peak of German production" was at the level of the plinth in comparison with the industry of the USSR or the USA in 1944.
            The 400 Royal Tigers and 415 Yagdpanter Kakbe are hinted at. And the Pnzer-5 armor bursting to smithereens under the impact of shells.
            Quote: Kars
            How much if not a secret? 407?

            You just took all the dead from 1153.
            And now subtract those that were flooded by the Allies, fled to Argentina, worked out a resource or flooded the crews. Consider the destruction of bases in France.
            In principle, the efficiency of Kriegsmarine already in 1944 tended to zero.
            Quote: Kars
            while the Kwantung group was intact, and start the USSR to throw resources

            Well, yes))) in conditions of complete domination of the sea and air. And regular bombing of the ports of the Far East.
            Quote: Kars
            USSR will take Iran even faster

            Too few forces to hold Europe, the Far East and even Iran)))
            Quote: Kars
            USSR will take Iran even faster, and the range of American bombers

            B-29 could operate from North African airfields. The range is enough to Baku and Ploiesti. And without Baku and Ploiesti, the war is over.
            Quote: Kars
            This is the full merit of the fleet of Her Majesty

            By the way, yes, do not write off the English.
            Quote: Kars
            This is a very controversial moment.

            Well yes)))) Was the USSR a Mustang? B-29 was? Was Gloucester Meteor? Was there a mosquito? Squadrons of B-29 and Thunderbolts, marching at an altitude of 10 km, would simply not have been noticed by Jacob and the Lavochkin.
            Quote: Kars
            supremacy at sea
            Who needs it if the convoys still will not be?

            These are unpleasant consequences for Murmansk, St. Petersburg, Novrossiysk and the Far East.
            Quote: Kars
            especially when there is not even a hint of a quick end to the conflict.

            There is ab
            1. +4
              25 December 2012 14: 36
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              You yourself know very well that this is a false figure

              This is not a false figure, otherwise where did the Yagdpanthers come from if the Yankees destroyed all the plants.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              400 Royal Tigers and 415 Yagdpanter kakbe hint

              Naturally hint that it is an industry - for labor costs it is about 3-4 thousand Shermans.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              You just took from 1153 all the dead

              No, I rewrote the count in Stroy in May 1945, in June there are 487))
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Well, yes))) in conditions of complete domination of the sea and air. And regular bombing of the ports of the Far East

              This did not stop the Japanese in 1943,1944, even in 1941.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Too few forces to hold Europe, the Far East and even Iran)))

              The Germans had even less forces at the beginning, but here the most powerful and experienced army of the world in 1945
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              B-29s could operate from North African airfields. The range is enough to Baku and Ploiesti. And without Baku and Ploiesti war the end
              How many times have Americans bombarded Ploesti?

              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              By the way, yes, do not write off the English.

              Who writes them off? Like cannon fodder, Anzaki and Hindus are worthless, maybe a little better than Italians. And he could cut off the ragmell rafting by sea by the fleet, then it is useless.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Was the USSR Mustang? Was B-29? Was Gloucester Meteor? Was there a mosquito? Squadrons of B-29 and Thunderbolts, reaching at an altitude of 10 km, simply would not have been noticed by Jacob and Lavochkin.

              Well, the USSR has no goals for strategic bombings on the European continent, it needs to capture the objects of the same France as whole as possible,
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              These are unpleasant consequences for Murmansk, St. Petersburg, Novrossiysk and the Far East

              Well, Leningrad and Novorossiysk vryatli, but without Murmansk you can live, do not forget the convoys there.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              There is ab

              A paper tiger that even the Japanese weren’t scared of. And the USSR appeared in 1949 AB and the Werner von Braun did not appear in the Yankees.
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              Pnzer-5, bursting to smithereens under the impact of shells
              1. 0
                25 December 2012 15: 15
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                at the baseboard level in comparison with the industry of the USSR or the USA in 1944
                1. +2
                  25 December 2012 15: 17
                  Quote: Kars
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  at the baseboard level in comparison with the industry of the USSR or the USA in 1944

                  And this is after TOTAL destruction by the omnipotent US aviation.
        2. DYMITRY
          +6
          25 December 2012 13: 38
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          reached Berlin.

          Citizen American cheer patriot, tell us how the amers got to Berlin. If you are talking about Berlin, which is in the state of Oklahoma, then I will disappoint you, even though the American troops were there, but this town has nothing to do with the Second World War. Learn Math. part!!!! Of course, I understand that with education in the states it’s bad, but I didn’t think so !!!
          1. -2
            25 December 2012 14: 27
            That is, they were absent in Berlin?
        3. +2
          25 December 2012 13: 53
          I categorically agree with all your arguments! good
        4. -1
          25 December 2012 20: 56
          And one more not unimportant nuance ... These are human resources. The USSR only spent 4 years of a heavy war with the occupation of its territories, and in the United States the population was practically not affected by the war. the manning system was put into operation by more than one hundred thousand bayonets, which would already defend their country, and would not help Europe in the war with Germany.
    3. -7
      25 December 2012 13: 38
      In the 1945th? The USSR would simply be smashed by atomic bombs, wherever they reached. It would have disappeared - hardly, but would have suffered greatly - yes.
      1. DYMITRY
        +9
        25 December 2012 13: 55
        Quote: Pimply

        In the 1945th? The USSR would simply be smashed by atomic bombs, wherever they reached.

        All three bombs smashed ????
        1. -4
          25 December 2012 14: 28
          My dear man, determine the scale of the possible production of already refined technology yourself, or how?
          1. DYMITRY
            +6
            25 December 2012 15: 07
            Quote: Pimply
            My dear man, determine the scale of the possible production of already refined technology yourself, or how?

            Nice person, labor and energy costs, as well as the rate of production of plutonium, take into account, or what? Let me remind you that industrial separators from amers appeared only in the late 70s, and before that they were received in the old fashioned way, by the diffusion method.
            1. -4
              25 December 2012 15: 35
              In 1947, they had 32 bombs, by 1952 they were already 1005, and after 5 years - 6000. And this despite the fact that they did not throw all their potential at it. Now imagine that they abandoned.
              1. +4
                26 December 2012 04: 32
                Quote: Pimply

                In 1947, they had 32 bombs,

                Eugene, before 1947, the Amers would still not have to lose the warrior. How much they fussed with Japan and how we smashed the Japanese army. In the United States with their atomic bombs (3) bombs, well, in short, our soldiers would still sign the White House and all. hi
                1. 0
                  26 December 2012 14: 22
                  Sash, the Japanese army was demolished in 1945, after the war for Japan was actually lost.
                  1. +1
                    26 December 2012 14: 30
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Sash, the Japanese army was demolished in 1945, after the war for Japan was actually lost.

                    Eugene, the Japanese Kwantung Army numbered up to a million people and represented a serious force. How much the United States would have fumbled before you joined the USSR. And B 29, even Japanese fighters shot down
                    1. 0
                      26 December 2012 14: 38
                      Sasha, the Japanese Kwantung army was demoralized, and was not an elite unit. By that time, Japan was losing in the war.
          2. +4
            25 December 2012 15: 28
            Quote: Pimply
            My dear man, determine the scale of the possible production of already refined technology yourself, or how?

            Well, a refined technology still needs resources such as minerals.
            1. -2
              25 December 2012 15: 40
              Once again - we will recall whether there are similar minerals in the USA and Canada?
              1. +5
                25 December 2012 15: 48
                Quote: Pimply
                are there any such minerals in the USA and Canada?
                Reply

                Whether or not this is of utmost importance, but it is still necessary to take into account that they were explored; were they started in the 40s?
                And Vika gives 32 bombs from the US to 1947. That's not so much considering the low power and possible losses during an air defense breakthrough.
                1. -3
                  25 December 2012 16: 07
                  Let us recall that significantly less forces were thrown at these 32 bombs than could be?
                  1. +3
                    25 December 2012 16: 11
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Let us recall that significantly less forces were thrown at these 32 bombs than could be?

                    But we can recall, on the contrary, that even these bombs could not have been captured by the Americans, the uranium reserves of Germany. Does the Alsos group say something? And that from 1945 to 1947 the USA no longer waged wars, and did not spend resources, so there could be and less than 32. Considering that there was no special meaning in them.
                    1. 0
                      25 December 2012 16: 42
                      Naturally, this could be. Who is arguing? 8)
                2. -4
                  25 December 2012 17: 40
                  Quote: Kars
                  And Vika gives 32 bombs from the US to 1947. That's not so much considering the low power and possible losses during an air defense breakthrough.

                  One is enough in Baku.
                  1. +4
                    25 December 2012 17: 57
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    One is enough in Baku

                    and what will happen? You know the area of ​​the oil fields? And do you think someone will stop radioactivity during restoration? This is on condition that they get there. The bomb is not megaton.

                    something you are in this regard similar to Rezun, which was worn with Ploesti.))))))
        2. +2
          25 December 2012 15: 44
          Quote: DYMITRY
          All three bombs smashed ????

          This is despite the fact that there is a version that US uranium was taken from this submarine.
          1. -3
            25 December 2012 17: 34
            Quote: saturn.mmm
            This is despite the fact that there is a version that US uranium was taken from this submarine.


            In 1945, the Americans already learned how to produce weapons-grade plutonium, of which the Germans had no idea
            1. Misantrop
              +3
              25 December 2012 17: 42
              And this is another big question ... Yes, two warheads ("Fat Man" and the one that blew up in Alamogordo) were plutonium. But according to the officially announced dates of the American nuclear program (Manhattan project), it turns out that in order to have time to produce the required amount, they needed to know about all the properties of 239 plutonium back in 1942, if not earlier. In order to have time to prepare the necessary equipment, ignite the isotope, and then still have time to isolate and purify it. Where from? There the picture of nichrome does not add up ... wink
          2. postman
            0
            26 December 2012 02: 24
            Quote: saturn.mmm
            US uranium taken from this submarine

            "Fat Man" - based on plutonium-239, power - about 21 kt.
            1. DYMITRY
              0
              26 December 2012 08: 39
              Quote: Postman
              Fat Man - Based on Plutonium-239

              And how do you not get the plutonium?
              1. +1
                26 December 2012 14: 38
                I can recommend an interesting book - by chance I came across in the library when there was a readership hunger. Although I probably need to read it in the original. But this is not given to me.

                The reader will be interested to learn how the first atomic bomb was created, what methods the political and military leadership of the United States used, what enormous apparatus of coercion of atomic scientists was used to implement the project, what kind of rivalry broke out between the capitalist powers on this ground during the Second World War and how the US imperialists tried to use their atomic monopoly for hegemony in the post-war world.
                The reader will find answers to these questions in the book before him.



                http://flibusta.net/b/74522
                1. postman
                  -1
                  26 December 2012 21: 38
                  Quote: Kars
                  I can recommend

                  And there is nothing about this topic:
                  "Radiogram No. 1074

                  27 1945 of August

                  Deputy Chief of General Staff

                  from the chief of staff of the Kwantung Army

                  The unexploded atomic bomb delivered from Nagasaki to Tokyo, please urgently transfer it to the Soviet embassy for preservation. Waiting for an answer".
                2. Misantrop
                  0
                  26 December 2012 23: 38
                  There is very interesting book "Mystical secrets of the 3rd Reich", by Hans Ulrich von Kranz. It is very sensibly written and makes you think about many, seemingly well-known, things. Written reasonably well. I recommend
              2. postman
                0
                26 December 2012 23: 29
                Quote: DYMITRY
                And how do you not get the plutonium?

                In the know, in the know, and even know who Siborg is. Only you in the USSR find reactors of that time.
                "Kyshtymsky complex" (1955-1956): each of the reactors produced 0,86 gr. plutonium-239 per day at 1 MW of power (those. in each reactor 246 gr. per day)

                And do you know where ALL THE Uranus -235 got (produced from ore containing 238) after the order of GKO No. 2352 ss dated September 28, 1942?

                The first bar of uranium weighing about a kilogram was obtained in the laboratory of Ershova in late 1944 in the presence of a commission led by Pervukhin and Zavenyagin. Bulk uranium Kurchatov’s nuclear reactor was delivered from Germany after our victory in 1945.

                On November 23, 1945, an agreement was concluded between the USSR and Czechoslovakia providing for the development of the Jáchymov mines. A.P. Zavenyagin participated in the development of measures to ensure a production plan here.

                Agreement between the Government of the USSR and the Government of Bulgaria (October 18, 1945). Deployment of works (1946-1947) at the Goten and Strelcha deposits.

                Romania (Quartzite company);
                Poland (Silesia Kuznetsk Mines)
                The largest consignments of raw materials came from the German Democratic Republic (Bismuth JSC, Saxon Mining Administration)


                The average uranium content in Russian ores is only 0,15% (in Gabon - 0,31%, Zimbabwe - 0,6%, Canada - more than 7%).
                In Australia, a significant part of the uranium reserves is associated with complex gold-copper ores, which makes it cost-effective to obtain it in passing even at low contents.
              3. postman
                0
                26 December 2012 23: 33
                Quote: DYMITRY
                And how do you not get the plutonium?

                In the know, in the know, and even know who Siborg is. Only you in the USSR find reactors of that time.
                "Kyshtymsky complex" (1955-1956): each of the reactors produced 0,86 gr. plutonium-239 per day at 1 MW of power (those. in each reactor 246 gr. per day)

                And do you know where ALL THE Uranus -235 got (produced from ore containing 238) after the order of GKO No. 2352 ss dated September 28, 1942?

                The first bar of uranium weighing about a kilogram was obtained in the laboratory of Ershova in late 1944 in the presence of a commission led by Pervukhin and Zavenyagin. Bulk uranium Kurchatov’s nuclear reactor was delivered from Germany after our victory in 1945.

                On November 23, 1945, an agreement was concluded between the USSR and Czechoslovakia providing for the development of the Jáchymov mines. A.P. Zavenyagin participated in the development of measures to ensure a production plan here.

                Agreement between the Government of the USSR and the Government of Bulgaria (October 18, 1945). Deployment of works (1946-1947) at the Goten and Strelcha deposits.

                Romania (Quartzite company);
                Poland (Silesia Kuznetsk Mines)
                The largest consignments of raw materials came from the German Democratic Republic (Bismuth JSC, Saxon Mining Administration)


                The average uranium content in Russian ores is only 0,15% (in Gabon - 0,31%, Zimbabwe - 0,6%, Canada - more than 7%).
                In Australia, a significant part of the uranium reserves is associated with complex gold-copper ores, which makes it cost-effective to obtain it in passing even at low contents.
        3. postman
          -1
          26 December 2012 01: 48
          Quote: DYMITRY
          All three bombs smashed ????

          NINE!
          War plan TOTALITY was followed by others; these were code-named as follows:

          1946 - PINCHER - 50 bombs on 20 Soviet cities
          1948 - BROILER - 34 bombs on 24 cities
          Likewise, in this same period,
          CHARIOTEER - a global war plan involving: 133 atomic bombs on 70 Russian cities, 8 on Moscow and 7 on Leningrad.
          COGWHEEL, GUNPOWDER, DOUBLESTAR, ABC10, DUALISM and FLEETWOOD.
          1949 - DROPSHOT and TROJAN.
      2. +2
        25 December 2012 15: 52
        Quote: Pimply

        In the 1945th? The USSR would simply be smashed by atomic bombs, wherever they reached.

        Firstly, the power of the bombs, and secondly, how many of them could reach their targets, given the number of Soviet fighters in 1945, well, we put 0.
        1. -2
          25 December 2012 17: 38
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          how many of them could reach their goals, given the number of Soviet fighters in 1945

          The Soviet Yaks and La 5 were useless when intercepting the B-29 with an escort of hundreds of Thunderbolts.
          American bombers traveling 10 km simply would not have noticed the "Stalinist falcons".

          I already wrote about the goals - Leningrad and Baku oil. The blow to Baku (the only large oil field in the USSR) puts an end to the continuation of the war.
          1. +2
            25 December 2012 18: 14
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            I already wrote about the goals - Leningrad and Baku oil. The blow to Baku (the only major oil field in the USSR) puts an end to the continuation of the war

            Here is an article about German fuel, imagine that the USSR got all this and the NKVD specialists improve productivity by the methods of suggestion to German personnel.
            http://nnm.ru/blogs/teufel65/sostoyanie_s_toplivom_v_nacistkoy_germanii_v_period
            _1933 _-_ 1945 / page3 /
            Plus the notorious Ploesti, Hungarian deposits.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Soviet Yaks and La-5 were useless when intercepting the B-29 with an escort of hundreds of Thunderbolts

            Well, maybe once they would have slipped,
            Downloaded by the way the blue ray with the Flying Fortress watched a movie?
            1. -3
              25 December 2012 19: 33
              Quote: Kars
              Here's an article about German fuel, imagine that the USSR got all this and the NKVD specialists improve productivity by suggesting methods to German personnel

              Erzats gas is too little to fight the United States

              Quote: Kars
              Downloaded by the way the blue ray with the Flying Fortress watched a movie?

              How from Africa bombed Italy?
              1. DYMITRY
                +2
                25 December 2012 21: 55
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Erzats gas is too little to fight the United States

                But Grozny oil is not consciously taken into account ??? After the war, the development of the Tatar and Bashkir deposits began. They must also be taken into account.
              2. +2
                25 December 2012 22: 11
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Erzats gas is too little to fight the United States

                Where is the war? There is plenty of fuel to throw the Yankees into the sea in 1945, and for the landing operation --- they’ve been preparing to overcome the English Channel for three years.
                And I was wondering how much fuel you need to fight the United States?
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                How from Africa bombed Italy?

                http://kinozal.tv/details.php?id=971759
          2. Misantrop
            0
            26 December 2012 23: 41
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            useless when intercepting the B-29 with an escort of hundreds of Thunderbolts.

            And what is the flight range of these American fighters? Why did Hiroshima and Nagasaki B-29 go without fighter cover?
            1. -1
              27 December 2012 21: 17
              Quote: Misantrop
              And what is the flight range of these American fighters?

              3700 km with PTB
              1. Misantrop
                +1
                27 December 2012 21: 22
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                3700 km with PTB

                Is it in the years 1946-49? Why then didn’t they fly directly from the USA to Berlin in the 45th? Fuel or motor resources saved? wink
                1. postman
                  0
                  28 December 2012 01: 36
                  Quote: Misantrop
                  Why then didn’t they fly directly from the USA to Berlin in the 45th? Fuel or motor resources saved?

                  Geography at school was not visible
          3. postman
            0
            27 December 2012 23: 52
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            The blow to Baku (the only large oil field in the USSR) puts an end to

            + at the refinery. And that’s all.
            Baku wellhead can still be restored (sacrificing staff), but you can’t build a refinery like that.
    4. slas
      +1
      25 December 2012 23: 35
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      in the event of an attack on US troops in Europe, the Soviet Union would disappear from the world map in a few months.

      laughing laughing laughing
  8. +5
    25 December 2012 12: 43
    Quote: DYMITRY
    Rave!!! Options for continuing military operations on a European theater were discussed. And here a lot of options arose.


    And for what? Stalin, whatever they said about him, was a wise man, he did not smile at all to conquer Europe, the question is not to conquer, but to keep, and why is it needed at all?
    Stalin needed a strip of allied or, at worst, neutral states along the perimeter of the USSR to exclude the possibility of direct sudden aggression, and he achieved this, and not only by military methods
    1. DYMITRY
      +7
      25 December 2012 13: 34
      So no one says that these were Stalin's plans. Just the same allies developed such plans. And realizing that for any outcome there is no chance, these plans were abandoned
      1. Misantrop
        +1
        27 December 2012 11: 38
        Quote: DYMITRY
        And realizing that for any outcome there is no chance
        When it’s not just about their well-being, but about survival itself, these children have little “chances”. They VERY value themselves. In order to get involved in a military adventure, they need a GUARANTEE. Self-security guarantee. They had chances, but the guarantees - alas. Therefore, they did not dare ...
  9. 0
    25 December 2012 12: 50
    “There are no more stupid people than Americans. They will never be able to fight like heroes, ”Adolf Hitler authoritatively stated. Partly the mustachioed was right ...
    I would like to see which of the original documents contains such a statement of the "mustache", otherwise it suits Zadornov more stylistically. I can almost hear Zadornov's voice behind these words :) By the way, Hitler attributed the British, Americans, and Germans to the same Aryan race. To tell him that the Americans or the British are stupid is like saying that the Germans are stupid
    1. -2
      25 December 2012 13: 00
      Quote: Sanches
      :) By the way, the British, Americans, Germans, Hitler attributed to the same Aryan race. To say for him that the Americans or the British are stupid is the same as saying that the Germans are stupid


      you can read at your leisure:
      http://www.libma.ru/istorija/svastika_i_orel_gitler_ruzvelt_i_prichiny_vtoroi_mi
      rovoi_voiny_1933_1941 / p2.php
      1. +3
        25 December 2012 14: 36
        there are some abstract reasoning, political jokes and no references to these documents. Moreover, the joke that I asked about in a previous post is not mentioned there. Accordingly, you can read at your leisure, as Hitler actually expressed himself about the armies of foreign countries:

        "The most characteristic feature of British public policy is that the British are excellent at using political power for economic conquest, and vice versa, turning economic gains immediately into political power. At the same time, please note: what nonsense is it to assume that the British are personally too 'cowardly'? to donate their blood to defend the country's economic policy! The fact that England for a long time did not have a "people's army" does not in any way indicate the "cowardice" of the British. The form of organization of military forces is of no decisive importance. and the willingness to use to the end the form of military organization that the nation currently possesses. Well, England always possessed the weapons that she needed for the moment. England always used those weapons of struggle that promised success. England fought under the help of a mercenary army as long as it could be done. But England, to When necessary, she shed the precious blood of her best sons, if only this was required by the success of the business. And always unchanged England showed decisiveness, perseverance and the greatest perseverance in the struggle.
        In Germany, we created a caricature of the British and the British Empire. Through the school, the press, and humorous magazines, this caricatured representation was created, which gave us nothing but the worst self-deception. This ridiculous idea of ​​the British gradually infected everyone and everything. The result was a huge underestimation of England, which subsequently avenged itself very strongly. This falsification was so deep that almost all of Germany imagined the Englishman as a person capable of all kinds of fraud and at the same time an incredibly cowardly trader. Our professors and scientists who spread this idea of ​​England did not even think of the question of what means such a people could create a great world power. Those who warned against this caricature did not want to listen, their warnings were hushed up. I vividly remember how the faces of my colleagues in the regiment stretched out when we found ourselves in the fields of Flanders face to face with the English Tommy. After several days of fighting, all of our guys began to perfectly understand that these Scottish soldiers, with whom we now have to face, are far from the caricature that was drawn in our humorous sheets and in our military reports published in the newspapers. "
        A. Hitler "Mein Kampf"

        This is about World War I
  10. +2
    25 December 2012 13: 12
    Quote: Sanches
    By the way, the British, the Americans,


    Americans and the race are from different operas in general, there is also a full vinaigrette, although the Afro-Arians sound cool
    1. 0
      25 December 2012 14: 43
      at the time of Hitler, the United States was still associated with the Englishman, and not with the African American
  11. Skavron
    +2
    25 December 2012 14: 29
    could the USSR attack the USA or could not ...
    What's the point? There are those here who say that "if only the Yankees would break in."
    And why in 1945 attack the Americans ???
  12. 0
    25 December 2012 14: 54
    Quote: Sanches
    there are some abstract reasoning, political jokes and no references to these documents.

    but Hitler still said the phrase about Americans
    "They have no idea, my Fuhrer, that is, they cannot be called people at all" - and this Goebbels seems to be about them

    And the fact that Hitler considered the British Aryans is well known, only he did not equal them with the amers
    1. 0
      25 December 2012 18: 32
      with the same degree of seriousness, one can ascribe for example to Brezhnev, Khrushchev or Mikoyan words from jokes:
      Brezhnev at a meeting of the Politburo says:
      - Comrades! We have many members of the Politburo fell into insanity, play games, ride on wooden horses. But Kosygin took away the tin soldiers from me (crying) and does not give-e-eh!

      Khrushchev returned from the United States in a bad mood and complains to Mikoyan:
      “Kennedy said they have a car that revives the dead.” In return, I lied that we have doping, from which a person runs faster than any car. Where to get it now, this dope?
      Mikoyan in response:
      - Nothing, if they can revive Stalin, you will run faster than any car!
      "But they still said these phrases" :)
      You don’t have to make a moron from Hitler, otherwise every skinhead clown begins to imagine what can follow in his footsteps
  13. +1
    25 December 2012 15: 34
    Look at the results of the war, and the results are as follows: the European metropolises lost their richest colonies, the United States acquired them, the entire second world was started by the United States in order to become the only superpower. Who restored and developed the industry of Germany and Japan? It was the USA, in the thirties Germany was a backward agrarian country.
    Now about the war between the USSR and the future of NATO immediately after the war, my scenario is this: the Army is not only (and not how many!) Tanks and planes, the army is primarily people, and here the Invincible and Legendary are ahead of all the planets. So, the script. The USSR completely captures Europe (three atomic bombs will not help allies), has an overwhelming influence in China and India, and captures Iran and the Middle East, Turkey. In fact, a land war will be fought in Africa, only there the United States will be able to maintain a foothold, the Americans will lose the first time with a crushing score, but over time they will gain experience and learn how to make normal armored vehicles, balance will come somewhere along the 20th parallel. Further, it all depends on many factors, how quickly the USSR will make its atomic bomb, how quickly it will integrate and master the economies of the conquered countries, whether it will be able to mobilize the human resources of these countries for war. Despite the victories at first, the chances of the USSR are very small.
  14. +2
    25 December 2012 16: 13
    And this happened
    1. +2
      25 December 2012 17: 59
      igordok

      that's the war;
      true Fritz it did not save, in the photo:

      Jubilant residents of Sofia welcome Soviet soldiers entering the Bulgarian capital on Valentine tanks, which were delivered to the USSR under Lend-Lease.
  15. Gadfly
    +4
    25 December 2012 18: 15
    "" The mobility of the MZl tank is truly amazing. In the combat area, both when driving on roads and over rough terrain, the MZl tank turned out to be the fastest of all known wheeled and tracked vehicles "- Major General of the Engineering Tank Service, Doctor of Technical Sciences ., professor N.I. Gruzdev (1945) "

    Well, I do not agree with this! The fastest tanks in the world are Soviet tanks of the BT series: BT-2, BT-5, BT-7. And if someone says that they are the invention of the American J. Christie, not appreciated in the USA, then I object: in fact, only his philosophy - speed, speed and speed - remained from Christy's tank in BT. And everything else is ours, domestic, of our own design. Like this.
  16. ICT
    +2
    25 December 2012 18: 40
    Quote: vyatom

    We saved them anyway. So do not let them fuss.


    the last comment is related to the topic of the article, the rest is fortunetelling on coffee grounds. I repeat history does not like the subjunctive mood, what happened can no longer be changed to until guessing that there will be something else that can be done for implementation, the forum has KSI lol , there the meaning is clear and conclusions on the comments can be made with the result you can summarize
  17. revenge
    +4
    25 December 2012 19: 30
    ahah, you always sucked. There is not a single war that they themselves would win
    .Now about atomic bombs.The range of the bombers of that time was 4-5 tkm, they would not have reached Moscow, St. Petersburg, or other large cities. Let us give an example America with Japan for 3 years, the USSR Japan for 3 months. Recall that America does not have 42 years there were at least some competitive tanks. The ground army is weak. And here again about Romel, suffering huge losses, having old German tanks, poor supplies, and Italians. He drove the whole coalition
  18. djon3volta
    -6
    25 December 2012 21: 37
    if Stalin and Hitler had united, right now there would have been no USA, no England or Israel .. the planet’s floor would have been the USSR, half eastern Germany soldier
    1. +6
      25 December 2012 21: 49
      Quote: djon3volta
      if Stalin and Hitler had united, right now there would have been no USA, no England or Israel .. the planet’s floor would have been the USSR, half eastern Germany


      We've already heard this somewhere. Germans will win - Let's drink Heineken and drive Mercedes. HERE ON SUCH HERE "MERCEDESAH", MLA:
      1. +1
        25 December 2012 22: 13
        SWEET_SIXTEEN hi

        I see minus, you terribly offended fans of Bavarian beer and Mercedes, or maybe a descendant of Vlasov or policemen showed up laughing .
        our culture is limping on both legs crying and that's bad.
      2. +1
        26 December 2012 03: 36
        We've already heard this somewhere. Germans will win - Let's drink Heineken and drive Mercedes. HERE ON SUCH HERE "MERCEDESAH",


        As one good friend of mine says categorically plus!
    2. +3
      25 December 2012 22: 10
      djon3volta

      Quote: djon3volta
      if Stalin and Hitler united


      write nonsense, excuse my directness; how could the communists unite with the national socialists? how the Germans (I mean the leadership) didn’t explain to the people, even the parties — why do they suddenly unite with second-class people; there are systemic contradictions!
      Quote: djon3volta
      right now there would be no usa, no england or israel .. half the planet would be the ussr, half east germany


      history does not know the subjunctive mood and to argue what would happen if in front of Kalka, because of princely grievances, 10 (if I'm not mistaken) the best husbands of Pskov and Tver were killed - probably not worth it.
      1. 0
        31 July 2021 00: 14
        Quote: Karlsonn
        how the communists could unite with the national socialists

        Easily. Have you forgotten about the "blood-sealed friendship"? I remember
    3. +1
      26 December 2012 03: 36
      if Stalin and Hitler had united, right now there would have been no USA, no England or Israel .. the planet’s floor would have been the USSR, half eastern Germany


      Hmm ... we just didn’t have enough school opinion. Learn the story, my friend. I have nothing more to say to you.
  19. 0
    26 December 2012 23: 51
    The United States did not have a special need at that time to fight with the Soviet Union. They fulfilled their goals - the crushing of Europe and its subordination to their own interests. Moreover, the remaining members of the anti-Hitler coalition were not in the best condition and there were no competitors for the Americans, except for the USSR, but the amers understood the scale of the destruction suffered by our country, so they were not particularly worried.
  20. bart74
    +2
    27 December 2012 01: 36
    Thanks to the Grandfathers for the victory! But allies for prayers, comforts and iron. In some part, this iron was even very personal: Jeeps and Stew. Legends go about stew.
  21. urchik
    +1
    27 December 2012 15: 33
    Pimply,
    Quote: Pimply
    I was always touched by the tale of the Second Front. Type only in the 44th. Tell me, what would happen if the Anglo-Saxons did not bind the Germans in Africa and the Japanese in the East? Have you thought about it? Or landing in Sicily in 1943, we also exclude

    Yes, but if there weren’t Moscow, Brest, Stalingrad, and so on, then what would happen to London and subsequently to New York and Washington.
  22. +2
    28 December 2012 08: 06
    Tanks are, of course, good, but the most important thing that they put IMHO is "Studers"
  23. 0
    April 16 2021 15: 06
    "For Lend-Lease, Soviet soldiers paid with their own blood."
    it is necessary to have such a perverted logic

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