Military Review

German analyst: the counteroffensive plan assumed that the Armed Forces of Ukraine would fight as a NATO army would do

61
German analyst: the counteroffensive plan assumed that the Armed Forces of Ukraine would fight as a NATO army would do

The German press is increasingly publishing materials under headlines like “What about the Ukrainian counteroffensive?” Another material on this topic was published in the SRF edition, being illustrated with a photo with a lined a tank APU.

In the material, the editor of the publication, David Nauer, writes that the Ukrainian counteroffensive "is moving slowly and sluggishly." According to him, in the two months of its counter-offensive, the Ukrainian army achieved "small success, but not a breakthrough, as planned."

David Nauer:

The Ukrainians captured several villages, taking control of a maximum of 250 square kilometers of territory. For comparison: Russia still occupies 100 square kilometers. Why is that? On the one hand, there is strong resistance from the Russians, on the other, the wrong tactics of the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians tried to break through the Russian positions using Western military equipment, but this did not work and led to heavy losses.

Naeur writes that the original counteroffensive plan was developed by Western countries together with Ukraine. According to the German analyst, this plan assumed that "Ukraine would fight as a NATO army would." But, as the SRF editor writes, NATO in this case would seek air supremacy. Ukraine does not have it, which has been repeatedly stated in Kyiv. As Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Zaluzhny put it a few weeks ago, he has big doubts that NATO would launch an operation without air supremacy and an advantage in the number of aircraft.

And the used option of conducting hostilities required constant consultations with the NATO command, which reduced efficiency.

In other words, the German analyst directly says that the offensive operation was actually conducted under the direct command of NATO. But in the end, the Ukrainians decided to abandon this tactic, since it did not bring success. True, the return to its own tactics of the Armed Forces of Ukraine has not yet brought success.

Nauer:

How long should the counteroffensive last? According to experts, the counter-offensive will probably last until autumn. It is also possible that Ukraine has been dealt a larger blow, but such a blow is unlikely. The question is how to move on. As far as is known, the Russians do not currently have large strike units. However, the Kremlin could stage another major mobilization and send hundreds of thousands more soldiers into battle.

The author eventually comes to the conclusion that hostilities will continue in the future, including in the winter, but their intensity may significantly decrease due to, as he puts it, "the exhaustion of the armies."
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  1. IVZ
    IVZ 6 August 2023 10: 49
    +12
    If the Armed Forces of Ukraine fought as the NATO countries assumed, the Armed Forces of Ukraine would no longer exist. And so they at least delay the defeat.
    1. Aken
      Aken 6 August 2023 10: 52
      +12
      And if the Armed Forces of Ukraine fought as our General Staff assumed, the Armed Forces of Ukraine would no longer exist.
      What is the conclusion from this? Our strategists and NATO strategists stand by each other.
      1. Rostov Papa
        Rostov Papa 6 August 2023 10: 54
        +5
        They remembered the past days and the battles that they loudly pissed off!
      2. fruc
        fruc 6 August 2023 11: 08
        +4
        ......... how the NATO army would do it

        Hmmm, if the NATO army did this in Ukraine, then the "conversation" with them would be appropriate, because there are no fraternal peoples in the NATO countries.
      3. Rumata
        Rumata 6 August 2023 11: 22
        +3
        Quote from Aken
        And if the Armed Forces of Ukraine fought as our General Staff assumed, the Armed Forces of Ukraine would no longer exist.
        What is the conclusion from this? Our strategists and NATO strategists stand by each other.

        "Generals are always preparing for the last war."
        1. bessonov932
          bessonov932 6 August 2023 11: 32
          +1
          If so, then it makes sense! Prepare for the last war.
          1. Zoldat_A
            Zoldat_A 6 August 2023 14: 00
            0
            Quote: Rumata
            "Generals are always preparing for the last war."

            Quote: bessonov932
            If so, then it makes sense! Prepare for the last war.

            Surprisingly, in Europe they hardly compare this war with the Second World War. In America, someone has already talked about the "counterattack" as about "D-Day", something else there ... And in Europe - sometimes they compare it with Verdun, sometimes with the battle on the Somme.
            Apparently, somewhere in the subcortex, it still plays that the result of the First World War was the Compiegne Carriage, and the result of the Second World War was the Red Banner over Berlin? And no matter how successful they were, European, local actions during the war, it all ended with a Russian soldier in Berlin.
            Yes, and in the Pacific Ocean there is still a big question, what would happen if Roosevelt had the foolishness to get involved in Churchill's British adventure called "The Unthinkable". Either they would have burned Japan with an atom, or they would still have fought with Japanese partisans in the Philippines.

            And even then ... If in the First World War it was not for the Eastern Front in Germany, and then there was this revolution in Germany ... Those Franks would spin along with the impudent Saxons like a propeller on one indecent German axis. Like it or not, the Russians helped Europe again.
        2. Aken
          Aken 6 August 2023 12: 39
          0
          Today, the generals are preparing for a fictional war.
      4. IVZ
        IVZ 6 August 2023 11: 30
        +8
        And if the Armed Forces of Ukraine fought as our General Staff assumed
        I'm afraid that initially the SVO was developed not by the military, but by politicians who did not expect serious resistance from the Armed Forces of Ukraine against the backdrop of general Russophilia that suddenly, with an incomprehensible fright, would suddenly engulf the "Ukrainian fraternal people." I then told my friends - ".. imagine that your relative will come to your house by force to establish their own rules. But our mentality is the same." Now looking at what is happening, I'm not sure if it was possible to do without war. But I am sure that there was a huge failure in our foreign policy at that time, which the authorities had no right to allow. However, I believe that the foreign policy of any state is highly dependent on the domestic one.
        1. Aken
          Aken 6 August 2023 12: 40
          -1
          Now looking at what's going on, I'm not sure if the war could have been avoided.

          I'm sure you can. It just had to start at 15.
          1. IVZ
            IVZ 6 August 2023 12: 53
            0
            I'm sure you can. It just had to start at 15.
            I envy your confidence, for me it is not so obvious - not a great specialist, unfortunately. I'm interested in the date. Why at 15?. Why not in the 90s? Or should not have started in the 80s? Or in 1917? Or when? I don't understand.
          2. fruc
            fruc 6 August 2023 17: 24
            +1
            Aken .....I'm sure you can. It just had to start at 15.

            No, earlier, in 1992.
        2. Andrey Dibrov
          Andrey Dibrov 6 August 2023 13: 33
          0
          Quote: IVZ
          And if the Armed Forces of Ukraine fought as our General Staff assumed
          I'm afraid that initially the SVO was developed not by the military, but by politicians who did not expect serious resistance from the Armed Forces of Ukraine against the backdrop of general Russophilia that suddenly, with an incomprehensible fright, would suddenly engulf the "Ukrainian fraternal people." I then told my friends - ".. imagine that your relative will come to your house by force to establish their own rules. But our mentality is the same." Now looking at what is happening, I'm not sure if it was possible to do without war. But I am sure that there was a huge failure in our foreign policy at that time, which the authorities had no right to allow. However, I believe that the foreign policy of any state is highly dependent on the domestic one.

          It could be. I'm running.
          All of America <both> is one and the same. But Mexico has not yet been soaked for their tricks.
          1. IVZ
            IVZ 6 August 2023 14: 11
            -1
            It could be. I'm running.
            All of America <both> is one and the same. But Mexico has not yet been soaked for their tricks.
            Why wet it? Is it that missile weapons, possibly with nuclear warheads, not far from Washington, enter the Warsaw Pact - just a matter of time? It seems not. And there is simply no need to fight. But if ... Remember the Caribbean crisis.
      5. LeutnantTom
        LeutnantTom 6 August 2023 11: 30
        +2
        Most of the commanders, most of the Ukrainian soldiers who received NATO training in the west, died on the battlefield.
        Now the old reservists, who still served in the Soviet Army, are drafted into the Ukrainian army.
        Well, the Russian General Staff is as old as the old Ukrainian reservists.
      6. Andrey Dibrov
        Andrey Dibrov 6 August 2023 12: 28
        0
        Quote from Aken
        And if the Armed Forces of Ukraine fought as our General Staff assumed, the Armed Forces of Ukraine would no longer exist.
        What is the conclusion from this? Our strategists and NATO strategists stand by each other.

        21 century.
        All those "strategists" of conventional batches in the technological era can be shoved into a dupa for a long time.
        https://topwar.ru/108040-pozicionnyy-tupik.html
      7. guest
        guest 6 August 2023 14: 12
        0
        Quote from Aken
        Our strategists and NATO strategists stand by each other.

        Well, what to do, they are "partners" and, as they say, "with whom you behave, you will gain from that."
    2. LeutnantTom
      LeutnantTom 6 August 2023 11: 16
      0
      see, for example, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. All three wars were lost.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 6 August 2023 11: 28
        -4
        Quote from LeutnantTom
        Iraq

        The regular army was driven into crap in three weeks, left due to partisanship, leaving ruling officials loyal to the States
        Quote from LeutnantTom
        Afghanistan

        Left because of the partisans, the government loyal to the West fell after leaving
        Quote from LeutnantTom
        Syria

        There, no one seriously worked against Assad's army with regular units
        1. Andrey Dibrov
          Andrey Dibrov 6 August 2023 13: 37
          -1
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Quote from LeutnantTom
          Syria

          There, no one seriously worked against Assad's army with regular units

          There, their own half of the country, who dumped all four from there and are not going to return "to their homeland for Assad and the third five-year plan", actually finished off. A polygon with no prospects, except for a roly-fool and bam-s in the dunes
    3. dmi.pris1
      dmi.pris1 6 August 2023 12: 08
      +2
      And how can the Armed Forces of Ukraine fight like NATO countries? With disarming air strikes, widespread suppression by armored vehicles, etc. The Armed Forces of Ukraine did not and could not have this. The article by this German analyst is complete nonsense
      1. IVZ
        IVZ 6 August 2023 12: 40
        0
        .The article of this German analyst is complete nonsense
        It seems to me that they are not analysts. and they make similar statements, and their awareness of what is happening is fundamentally wrong. Probably Western propaganda "Ukraine has everything you need ..." is doing its job and not only at the level of the plebs.
    4. And Us Rat
      And Us Rat 6 August 2023 14: 10
      +1
      Quote: IVZ
      If the APU fought

      If yes ....

      Quote: IVZ
      NATO countries

      Not everyone is equal in terms of their capabilities.

      For a successful breakthrough of the Russian defense in Ukraine, a whole list of mandatory conditions and means in the right quantities is required, which not every country has.
      First, we need a full-fledged network-centric communication and control system that allows you to close the fire cycle faster than the enemy.
      Secondly, you need air dominance over the front line and accurate means of destruction to the depth of enemy artillery fire + EW cover from air defense systems.
      And from this point, something could already be adequately planned.

      Personally, I initially considered the idea of ​​a Ukrainian counteroffensive to be Manilovism. And when they started, I was generally in shock, I could not even imagine a more mediocre waste of troops and resources.
  2. EvilCommunist
    EvilCommunist 6 August 2023 10: 51
    +8
    I am glad that in the Western media now and again seething is heard from draining urine into the toilet of history
  3. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 6 August 2023 10: 52
    +6
    The Germans and Americans are happy to push the Ukrainians to their extermination.
    From their point of view, the more Slavs die in this war, the better.
    Therefore, weapons, mercenaries, military experts will enter this war in an endless stream until the last Ukrainian, then Poles, Balts and then will follow.
    Proxy war, at the expense of others, is what Americans love to do with other peoples.
    1. Sedov
      Sedov 6 August 2023 11: 03
      0
      Someone already once promoted this thesis, that the Aryan (in this case, the Anglo-Saxon) race is the only one in the world and the rest should be exterminated .. But it didn’t lead to anything good then. And the race has sunk into oblivion.. Let it also happen now.. But how many lives should be required for this?
  4. kosmozoo
    kosmozoo 6 August 2023 10: 55
    0
    The German pig did not understand that the answer to the question of the defeat of a ukroreich fighting according to NATO patterns lies in history.
    1. GELEZNII_KAPUT
      GELEZNII_KAPUT 6 August 2023 12: 44
      -1
      Quote: kosmozoo
      The German pig did not understand that the answer to the question of the defeat of a ukroreich fighting according to NATO patterns lies in history.

      In what story, that the Germans were castrated after WWII, they fought competently, so there’s no need to talk nonsense, but they didn’t have enough resources, but they didn’t calculate their strength, etc. etc., but to blame NATO for the fact that they can't do anything is stupid. The fact that they still have not transferred their industry to a war footing (I'm talking about Europe), but they have it, unlike Russia, suggests that they really want to unbuckle themselves from the US team, no matter what they say.
      1. Andrey Dibrov
        Andrey Dibrov 6 August 2023 13: 45
        -1
        Quote: GELEZNII_KAPUT
        Quote: kosmozoo
        The German pig did not understand that the answer to the question of the defeat of a ukroreich fighting according to NATO patterns lies in history.

        In what story, that the Germans were castrated after WWII, they fought competently, so there’s no need to talk nonsense, but they didn’t have enough resources, but they didn’t calculate their strength, etc. etc., but to blame NATO for the fact that they can't do anything is stupid. The fact that they still have not transferred their industry to a war footing (I'm talking about Europe), but they have it, unlike Russia, suggests that they really want to unbuckle themselves from the US team, no matter what they say.

        The West has more than those resources. They are there, corny, half the number of people than on the rest of the planet per square meter. With an order of magnitude more technologically advanced.
  5. NG inform
    NG inform 6 August 2023 10: 57
    0
    It is necessary to bomb the German and Bulgarian factories ...
    1. fruc
      fruc 6 August 2023 11: 19
      +1

      NG inform ..... bomb German and Bulgarian factories...

      There are no factories. But if Ukrainian planes and frigates (not built yet) appear in Romania and Poland, then it is quite possible.
    2. kit88
      kit88 6 August 2023 11: 23
      +9
      In order to bomb German factories, one must be prepared that a couple of hundred axes will fly to Moscow the next night. And in response, a couple of hundred special warheads will start across North America.
      In short, instead of bombing German factories, I propose to take Kyiv. And this will all end happily.
      1. fruc
        fruc 6 August 2023 17: 33
        +1
        kit88
        ............. I propose to take Kyiv. And this will all end happily.

        Instead, we were shown a piece of paper that costs nothing and is called the "draft Istanbul Treaty." Another divorce, although this was to be expected.
      2. NG inform
        NG inform 6 August 2023 23: 56
        0
        Will not fly. Western leaders also want to live.
  6. fiv
    fiv 6 August 2023 10: 57
    0
    To put it mildly, this gentleman demonstrates amazing self-confidence. He only forgets that the rockets would then arrive not only at Ukrainian facilities, but also at Fatherland. Least. with different charges.
  7. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 6 August 2023 11: 00
    +2
    On the one hand, there is strong resistance from the Russians, on the other hand, the wrong tactics of the Ukrainians.
    Were they really sure that the Russians, seeing Western technology, would stop resisting? And who imposed the tactics of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, who tried to teach these tactics at their training grounds, who developed plans for the so-called. "counterattack"? Solid verbiage in an attempt to write off their frank jambs on the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    1. dzvero
      dzvero 6 August 2023 12: 21
      -1
      Were they really sure that the Russians, seeing Western technology, would stop resisting?

      Oddly enough, yes. There was such a trend before the NWO - all its prodigy, a head (or even two) superior to Russian counterparts. Like, here's a hundred leopards and three hundred bradleys, which is quite enough to go to the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line, and in good weather to reach the Urals. We have a plan, beautiful and LGBT-ish. You just have to go forward, there are no ravines there smile
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. Anchonsha
    Anchonsha 6 August 2023 11: 09
    0
    Analyst, but the Bandera people are fighting in a way that NATO has never fought with anyone: - just as vile and vile as NATO, only more sophisticated, more vile, as the Anglo-Saxons act in general. our General Staff proceeded from the fact that at least some laws of the Second World War would be observed - not to touch the civilian population. However, the Anglo-Saxon Bandera did as they were incited by their masters from the Bandera Cossack Bayda
  10. Vladimir M
    Vladimir M 6 August 2023 11: 14
    +3
    The Armed Forces of Ukraine, by definition, cannot fight like NATO armies - they do not have the necessary amount of forces and means: missiles, aviation ....
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 6 August 2023 11: 42
      +4
      And what type of NATO army has all this and is it capable of fighting on equal terms with the RF Armed Forces? Bulgarian? Romanian? Portuguese? Italian? Estonian? Ha ha .. Yes, even German or French .. The only NATO army that poses a real danger to us is the American one. The rest - it’s even funny to remember, so, dirt under the tracks ..
      1. Russian_Ninja
        Russian_Ninja 6 August 2023 13: 11
        +2
        Well, who said that they will act separately? After all, we are not playing a turn-based strategy, individually they are really weak, but if they act as a united front, it will no longer be funny.
        Another question is that everyone has their own skin and there will be a united and indestructible front only if it is clear that they will not suffer and the treasury will be replenished from these actions. Otherwise it's every man for himself
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 6 August 2023 15: 03
          0
          Uh-huh .. This is how I imagine it - this is the Bundeswehr brigade advancing in the steppes of Ukraine, the Romanians on the left, the Hungarians on the right, and even the Italians loom nearby. As for me, the Germans at the genetic level of the memory of their ancestors should have an irresistible desire to immediately dump away from sin .. They already acted like a united front, how it ended - everyone remembers.
          1. And Us Rat
            And Us Rat 6 August 2023 18: 21
            +2
            Quote: paul3390
            at the genetic level of the memory of the ancestors, a German should have an irresistible desire to immediately dump away from sin..

            Alas, in the real world, such a phenomenon as "ancestral genetic memory" does not exist. But the ideology of revanchism is a very real phenomenon.
      2. And Us Rat
        And Us Rat 6 August 2023 14: 42
        +1
        Quote: paul3390
        And what type of NATO army has all this and is it capable of fighting on equal terms with the RF Armed Forces?

        Watching where. You forget that any war is, first of all, LOGISTICS.
        Therefore, the army of the Russian Federation against the army (for example) of France on the Russian borders is one alignment, and on the territory of France itself it is completely different.
        The further the logistic arm, the thinner it is.
        It is not a fact that the Russian army will have enough logistics capacity to even reach the territory of most NATO countries, at least with something other than missiles and sabotage groups. And they don't win the war.
        For the sake of comparison, the US Army has 2 or even 3 orders of magnitude more logistics, and at the same time it took them almost 2 years to transfer and concentrate troops (and not alone, but with a coalition) to invade Iraq, a country far from the first quantities.
        It is also very important who plays on defense and who comes on the offensive.
        Moreover, the defense is also different, sometimes deaf, sometimes dynamic.

        Quote: paul3390
        even German or French

        On his home field and from defense - more than.

        Quote: paul3390
        The only NATO army that poses a real danger to us is the American

        And here is just a reassessment, even they do not have enough logistics for a full-fledged successful invasion of the Russian Federation.
        So the only army that poses a real danger to the Russian Federation in terms of objective capabilities is the PLA.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 6 August 2023 15: 05
          0
          it took them almost 2 years to transfer and concentrate troops (and not alone, but with a coalition) to invade Iraq

          Well, you give - you compare the transfer by sea to the other end of the globe, and the passage through the generally well-equipped European territories ... belay
          1. And Us Rat
            And Us Rat 6 August 2023 16: 49
            +1
            Quote: paul3390
            passage through the generally well-equipped European territories ...

            Was the Russian Federation unable to effectively reach Kyiv with logistical communications, recall ambushes and burning columns in the first months? Chinese tires dried up from storage, because of which serviceable equipment was abandoned? Lack of clear coordination between the military branches, disgusting communications, the inability to provide significant cover for transport arteries and a lack of situational awareness even in controlled territories?
            Are you dreaming about a march on France with Germany? Wake up.
            Nothing serious will reach them corny, even without entering into open clashes.
            Do you understand at least a little bit about the strategic mechanisms of war?
    2. NG inform
      NG inform 6 August 2023 23: 56
      0
      In the event of a war with Russia, NATO will also not have missiles and aircraft.
  11. alexoff
    alexoff 6 August 2023 11: 15
    +2
    As far as I remember, a year ago, the Armed Forces of Ukraine received an absolute wunderwaffe against our air defense systems called harm, well, of course, they destroyed everything. And they also have incredible pilots who shot down hundreds of our planes in the old moments, at the end of 2022 they shot down more than they had before. Therefore, they should already have air superiority according to NATO plans. But something went wrong.
  12. Egor Adashev
    Egor Adashev 6 August 2023 11: 17
    0
    If my grandmother would have ... And also these bushes, well, Nata doesn’t get a stone flower in any way ... Maybe it’s in Nata herself?
  13. former soldier
    former soldier 6 August 2023 11: 18
    0
    But, as the SRF editor writes, NATO in this case would seek air supremacy. Ukraine does not have it, which has been repeatedly stated in Kyiv. As Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Zaluzhny put it a few weeks ago, he has big doubts that NATO would launch an operation without air supremacy and an advantage in the number of aircraft.


    NATO air supremacy would still need to be able to create. And Ukrainian practice shows that it is not the Hindenburgs who run the NATO headquarters either, and it would not turn out as expected. This means that long-range mutual missile attacks of the tomahawg / caliber type would begin with a smooth transition to tactical nuclear weapons and then either negotiations or general Armageddon
  14. Observer2014
    Observer2014 6 August 2023 11: 18
    +2
    And the German analyst did not assume that the Russian army if the Ukrainian army would start fighting like NATO. I would fight like with NATO. No. Did not think. With TNW strikes on the rear and the accumulation of troops. What is there. It's not the end of the world yet they think everything is so simple. And they will be watching everything on TV. Yes, our soldiers are now literally delaying the day of judgment with their lives. Although last year everything converged on the fact that there were more reasons than necessary to stop evolution on Earth.
  15. RuAbel
    RuAbel 6 August 2023 11: 20
    +4
    Everyone agrees that there is no significant preponderance of the parties. To break the conflict, mobilization of personnel is needed. Ukraine does not have a mobile resource, we do. Whether the Commander-in-Chief decides to end his battle with a victory or an agreement, I don't know. Dilemma: Victory means thousands of Russian lives now; contract - thousands of lives in installments. I don't blame the president. I sympathize with him.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  16. Ulan.1812
    Ulan.1812 6 August 2023 11: 34
    0
    The Armed Forces of Ukraine, having a year and a half experience of a large-scale war, can teach NATO themselves.
  17. evgen1221
    evgen1221 6 August 2023 12: 01
    +1
    The stubbornness of the woodpecker is their policy. Wait, they will persuade you to negotiate, they will pump you up with planes in a respite, and they will give you Yao and go on again. But figs to them! Don't care about their swelling cheeks, go to the end, as soon as they feel that they themselves will begin to fly on their heads, only then will they fall behind. And no measurements from the EU until the payment of all reporats for damage, it is necessary to take everything in a row, except for opening our markets for their goods, it is necessary, make our workers with us, transfer your technologies to us, your markets have become ours before paying debts. And in general they are used to licking their boots to feel the owner and the whip on the ridge, so our policy towards the EU must be built on this. Enough to deify pigs.
  18. Alexey Gorshkov
    Alexey Gorshkov 6 August 2023 12: 04
    0
    I am amazed at the Ukrainian officers! Let's leave it out of the question that they are fighting against us, although, in my opinion, this in itself is WRONG!!! But they are the same heirs of the winners, just like us! And they CROVE in front of the instructors of the NATO armies, who either do not know how to fight at all, or who know how to obviously worse than the Soviet / Red Army, which Ukrainians CANNOT NOT know about! Their training is ANYWHERE ABOVE, and in theory THEY SHOULD TEACH NATO !!!
    1. Andrey Dibrov
      Andrey Dibrov 6 August 2023 13: 55
      0
      Quote: Alexey Gorshkov
      I am amazed at the Ukrainian officers! Let's leave it out of the question that they are fighting against us, although, in my opinion, this in itself is WRONG!!! But they are the same heirs of the winners, just like us! And they CROVE in front of the instructors of the NATO armies, who either do not know how to fight at all, or who know how to obviously worse than the Soviet / Red Army, which Ukrainians CANNOT NOT know about! Their training is ANYWHERE ABOVE, and in theory THEY SHOULD TEACH NATO !!!

      Therefore, there is no "truth".
      Capitalist strife. Where the same officer then gets a deputy director in some Roshen, his children rent a couple of gas stations, and so on.
    2. And Us Rat
      And Us Rat 6 August 2023 14: 53
      -1
      Quote: Alexey Gorshkov
      I am amazed at the Ukrainian officers! Let's leave it out of the question that they are fighting against us, although, in my opinion, this in itself is WRONG!!! But they are the same heirs of the winners, just like us! And they CROVE in front of the instructors of the NATO armies, who either do not know how to fight at all, or who know how to obviously worse than the Soviet / Red Army, which Ukrainians CANNOT NOT know about! Their training is ANYWHERE ABOVE, and in theory THEY SHOULD TEACH NATO !!!

      We are discussing objective facts here, not ideological slogans. Slogans don't win wars.

      Py.Sy. During WWII, "those who did not know how to fight", for every 1000 Fritz, fewer soldiers were exchanged than the Red Army. Food for thought.
      1. Petr_Koldunov
        Petr_Koldunov 6 August 2023 17: 10
        0
        Quote: And Us Rat
        During WWII, "those who did not know how to fight", for every 1000 Fritz, fewer soldiers were exchanged than the Red Army. Food for thought.

        No, not food. What's with the WWII?
        Please tell us in more detail about any NATO army during WWII?...
        (after all, here we are discussing NATO, and not WWII, the struggle for the Spanish inheritance or the Hundred Years War).

        I will even develop my idea: the current NATO has nothing to do in terms of morale and combat qualities with that generation of courageous Americans (and even more courageous and courageous British) who have fought Hitler desperately and seriously.
        1. And Us Rat
          And Us Rat 7 August 2023 03: 20
          +2
          Quote: Peter_Koldunov
          the current NATO - in terms of morale and combat qualities, has nothing to do with that generation of courageous Americans that has gone into oblivion forever


          Like the modern army of the Russian Federation to the generation of veterans of the Second World War.
          Cliches - they're such clichés.
          To judge the fighting spirit of a person, first go into battle with him. Have you ever been in combat?
  19. Chief Officer Lom
    Chief Officer Lom 6 August 2023 12: 22
    -2
    Quote: Alexey Gorshkov
    THEY SHOULD TEACH NATO

    The whole ideology of today's Ukraine was created by Nazi "canned food" from the USA/Canada and is based on the superiority of absolutely everything Euro-American over Russian/Soviet.
  20. Petr_Koldunov
    Petr_Koldunov 6 August 2023 17: 00
    0
    the counteroffensive plan assumed that the Armed Forces of Ukraine would fight as a NATO army would do

    That is, with those who a priori are not able to fight back? With backward tribes armed with flintlocks?
    Yes, if the ukrovermacht fought as the NATO army would have fought, then the war would have ended in a month. And so bloomers are still the same Russians, just with warped brains. And they are fighting desperately and stubbornly ... as always, the Russians fought. And as no NATO country can fight.