Rider on wheels

111
The first attempts to increase the operational mobility of artillery by installing guns of various calibers on tracked or wheeled chassis were already made at the beginning of the 20th century. At the same time, there was a definite bias towards the latter, which was not accidental.

Caterpillar tractor chassis, and then tanks It turned out to be not only much more difficult technically, but also much more expensive. The tactics of the combat use of tank units in the 1920s and 1930s have not yet been worked out. The role and place of self-propelled artillery was not clearly visible, and self-propelled artillery as such did not exist. Therefore, the developers did not see the significant advantages of tracked chassis over wheeled ones. Moreover, the automotive industry at that time developed rapidly. A new impetus to the creation of self-propelled guns on wheeled chassis gave the appearance of off-road vehicles. The most successful design of this kind should be recognized as the French self-propelled guns on the chassis of the Laffly all-terrain truck, armed with a 47mm anti-tank gun.

The beginning of the Second World War put an end to the competition between tracked and wheeled self-propelled guns. The nature of the conduct of hostilities clearly demanded the presence on the battlefield of self-propelled guns created on the tank chassis. Only in this way was their close interaction with tanks ensured. The wheel-mounted ACS did not have sufficient cross-country ability or armor protection for the required level. Self-propelled guns built on the chassis of half-tracked armored personnel carriers can only be considered as an auxiliary weapon system with limited capabilities. They acted mainly in the battle formations of motorized infantry units equipped with semi-tracked armored personnel carriers. By the end of the war, the concept of a self-propelled artillery installation on a tank chassis had finally triumphed. But, as it soon turned out, not for long.

In the first post-war decades, anti-tank destroyers disappeared from the arsenals of the leading military powers of the world. The fight against enemy tanks was fully laid on tanks and anti-tank missile systems. And the latter could be mounted on anything - from helicopters to jeeps. The need to escort tanks in a battle with self-propelled guns has disappeared, and as a result, the requirements for the level of armor protection of the latter have decreased. By the beginning of the 1970s in different countries, lightly armored self-propelled guns, created either on the chassis of tracked armored personnel carriers or on special chassis, began to enter service. And it was only about self-propelled howitzers of caliber from 105 to 203 mm. With the reduction in the combat mass of these SAUs, the temptation to use the wheeled chassis again arose, especially since by that time there were already many samples of automotive vehicles that were not inferior in traction to tracked vehicles. Czechoslovakia became a pioneer in creating wheeled self-propelled guns of the new generation.

It should be noted that the armies of the countries participating in the Warsaw Pact in the main were equipped with Soviet-made armament and military equipment. Together, those countries that had the appropriate defense industry were not forbidden to develop their own designs both for their own needs and for other allied states. The only requirement was only the unification of ammunition.

152 mm ShKH vz.77 (152 mm samohydna kanonova houfnice vz. 77 - 1 52MM self-propelled gun-howitzer model 1977 of the year)

In the middle of 1970 in the design office of a machine-building enterprise in the Slovak city of Dubnica nad Vahom, a new software was built. sample 152 of the year). However, this self-propelled gun, launched into a series in the 77 year, gained great fame under its own name - “Dana”.
The Tatra 815 all-wheel-drive chassis, seriously upgraded for this purpose, was used as a base for placing weapons in this SAU. The chassis has a wheel formula 8x8, with two front steering wheels. Suspension - independent spring. The wheels are equipped with a tire pressure control system. In front of the chassis is a low-profile armored cab. It houses the driver and commander. At the rear of the chassis is a 12 cylinder V-shaped multi-fuel Tatra 293034 diesel engine with 345 horsepower.

Rider on wheels

in 1979 year, acquired under its own name - "Dana"

Armament - 152mm howitzer gun - installed in a rotating turret consisting of two armored half-towers, sealed and isolated from each other. On the left are the gunner and loader jobs located in tandem, followed by the mechanized charging of charges. In the right - the workplace of the second loader, and in front of him - the mechanized laying of shells. The 12,7mm anti-aircraft gun DSHKM is installed on the turret of the second charging loader. The gun-howitzer gun carriage mounted openly between the semi-towers. Above the barrel of the gun is placed the mechanism of filing.

This installation of howitzer guns eliminates the effect of powder gases on the calculation when conducting intensive firing. Namely, such shooting is provided in automatic mode, when projectiles and charges are fed to the discharging line with the help of special mechanisms. Cartridges are removed by a special conveyor. In the automatic mode, “Dana” is capable of producing 30 shots in 7 minutes, and within an hour - 90 shots. With manual loading, the rate of fire is 2 rds / min. Ammunition - 60 shots. For firing, high-explosive fragmentation grenades from the Soviet gun-howitzer D20, including Czechoslovakia, are used. The maximum angle of elevation of the gun barrel is + 70 °, the declination is 4 °. Despite the fact that the installation in a combat position is hung out with the help of three hydraulic supports, it is possible to fire only in the 225 ° sector. The maximum firing range of an 43,5 kg fragmentation grenade mass is 18,7 km. The installation can be deployed in the firing position within 2 minutes, and leave it - a minute after the end of the shooting.

The engine allows the vehicle with a combat weight of 29,25 t to reach speed on the highway 80 km / h. Power reserve - 800 km.

At the beginning of 1980, the ACS "Dana" entered service in Czechoslovakia, Poland and the GDR. The Czechoslovak military leadership offered “Dana” to the Soviet Union, but this did not arouse much enthusiasm. In terms of fire capabilities, the “Dana” was identical (with the exception of the rate of fire) of the Soviet self-propelled howitzer 2SZ “Akatsiya”, which was already in service with the Soviet Army. True, thanks to the use of a wheeled chassis, the “Dana” possessed a higher mobility on the roads, but on the roads it was losing on the terrain of the tracked “Acacia”. This circumstance may not have been significant in the context of an extensive European road network, but for the territory of the USSR it was a clear disadvantage. A very serious lack of “Dana” was considered the lack of the possibility of loading from the ground.

In general, it was obvious that adopting another artillery system, which had no obvious advantages over the domestic one, does not make sense. Such an opinion was finally confirmed in the Main Rocket-Artillery Directorate and the 3m Central Research Institute of the USSR Ministry of Defense - organizations that were entrusted with working out the issue of the expediency of purchasing “Dana”. Nevertheless, in the 1979, at the Rzhev artillery range, two Dana samples were tested, which, as expected, showed no advantage over the domestic counterpart. In 1983, a letter was sent to the General Staff from the USSR Academy of State Administration about the inexpediency of supplying the Dana ACS to the Soviet Union. However, in the same year, the command nevertheless decided to take some of the Czechoslovak self-propelled guns into experimental military service in the USSR. To do this, Czechoslovakia bought six (according to other sources, 18 - one division) self-propelled guns. They were operated in the USSR for about a year, after which they were returned to Czechoslovakia. In 1985, Minister of Defense of the USSR S.L. Sokolov was sent a report on the results of trial operation "Dana". Despite the objections and doubts of most of our gunners, the USSR Council of Ministers issued the 25 of October 1986 of the year “On procurement in Czechoslovakia in 1987 - 1989 152mm Dana self-propelled howitzers. Perhaps this order the Soviet leadership wanted to support the Allied manufacturer.

Czechoslovak SAU planned to arm the 211 artillery brigade, which was part of the Central Group of Forces deployed in Czechoslovakia. This facilitated the resolution of logistics issues. In 1988, the “dans” began to enter the troops. Prior to the rearmament of the 211, the brigade consisted of four divisions equipped with D20 towed howitzer guns and self-propelled Hyacinth 2C5. With the beginning of the replacement of the material part, the compound moved to a new state: now it included five divisions, each of which had three artillery batteries of eight-guns. Thus, the total number of ACS “Dana” in the brigade was 120 units. In addition to the TsGV artillery brigade, these installations were received at an artillery training center located in the territory of the Belarusian Military District.

According to reviews of officers who served in the 211 brigade, the artillery unit of the “Dana” was very sensitive to operating conditions, and for this reason there were many failures. The eight-wheeled chassis received certain praise, in any case, its maneuverability, which turned out to be even higher than that of the BTR70. The radius of rotation of the ACS was such that in narrow places - where, for example, the armored personnel carrier needed to pass in two stages, with the inclusion of a reverse gear - “Dana” passed without problems.

In the Soviet Army "given" served not for long. In 1990, the withdrawal of compounds and parts of the CHB from Czechoslovakia began. The 211 brigade was incorporated into the troops of the Moscow Military District and redeployed to the village of Mulino, Gorky Region. The materiel brigade was sent to Kazakhstan, but there is no data on the use of ACS "Dana" in Kazakhstan.
It should be noted that in the USSR at about the same time, attempts were made to create their own self-propelled gun on a wheeled chassis. The base used was the 8X8 15 chassis of a prototype KrAZ4P3130 vehicle with a multi-fuel YaMZ202 diesel engine with 360 horsepower. But these works didn’t go further than creating prototypes

As for Czechoslovakia, before the beginning of the 1990 years, about 750 self-propelled guns were produced. An attempt was made to upgrade the ACS by increasing the length of the gun barrel from 39 to 47 calibers. This option is called Ondava, but there is no data on its mass production.


SAU "Zuzana"

At the beginning of 1990, Slovak designers, seeking to expand the market for their cars, developed another upgraded version. SAU "Zuzana" differs from the "Dana" mainly tool. She is armed with a 155mm howitzer cannon with a barrel length 45 caliber. All standard NATO ammunition can be used for shooting. Ammunition reduced to 40 shots, and the crew - to 4 people. Improved fire control system. Anti-aircraft gun DShKM replaced modern NSV12,7. Blocks of smoke grenade launchers were installed on the front sheets of the tower. On some of the demonstration samples, the Luna-4 IR illuminator was also mounted, which indicates the presence of a night sight on the vehicle for direct fire.
After the collapse of Czechoslovakia in 1992, the fleet of self-propelled guns was divided between the Czech and Slovak armies. In particular, on 1 in January 2008 of the year in the Czech Republic there were 173 machines (115 of them were in storage), in Slovakia there were 131 (12 in storage). In turn, Poland had 111 Dana artillery systems.


SAU "Dana" Georgia

As for supplies to other countries, very little is known about them. It is authentically known that in 2006, the Czech Republic sold 12 to ACS “Dana” to Georgia. Two years in a row, these installations were a kind of “nail” of military parades in Tbilisi. Judging by the television shots, on the night from 7 to 8 in August 2008, they fired at sleeping Tskhinval together with the “hail”, by the way, also from Czechoslovak production - RM70.


G6 Rhino ("Rhino")

Another sample of self-propelled artillery on a wheeled chassis was created almost at the same time as the "Dan", but far from Czechoslovakia - in South Africa. The development of the ACS, which received the designation G6 Rhino (“Rhino”), began at the end of 1970 in the state-owned corporation APMSKOR, and the first prototype appeared in 1981 year. The choice of a wheeled chassis was primarily due to the peculiarities of the terrain of the region, as well as the need to have a large stock of self-propelled combat equipment used by ground forces.



In front of the body of the ACS G6 there is a department of management, behind it is the engine-transmission, and then the combat, including an armored tower of circular rotation. The body is made of welded armor plates that protect against small-arms fire. weapons and artillery shell fragments. The bottom has a reinforced reservation against the action of mines.
The G6 uses an air-cooled diesel engine with an 525 horsepower.

The automatic transmission provides six forward gears and two reverse gears. All wheels - driving (wheel formula 6x6), front pair - driven. Wheel suspension - independent torsion bar, with hydraulic shock absorbers, it switches off during firing. Prior to this, using the hydraulic system, four supports are lowered (along the sides in the front and rear parts of the hull). Despite the significant combat mass in the 36,5 t, the G6 self-propelled howitzer has good mobility. Maximum speed on the highway - 90 km / h, and on rough terrain 35 - 40 km / h. Power reserve 600 km.

The armored turret houses: a commander, a gunner, and two loaders. For their entry and exit, there is a door on the right side and two hatches on the roof of the tower. In front of the tower on either side of the gun are four-barrel smoke grenade launchers. The commander's tower is equipped with periscopes of a circular view. A 12,7mm machine gun is installed in front of the loader's hatch for firing both ground and air targets.

The main armament of the ACS is a 155mm howitzer with a barrel length of 45 calibers. The tool pointing angles are vertically from 5 to + 75 °, and horizontally 80 °. Guidance drives - electro-hydraulic. To facilitate the loading on the left side of the shutter posted rammer shells. Powder charges in a combustible sleeve are placed in the charging chamber manually. A well-trained calculation ensures the 4 firing rate per minute for 15 minutes.

For firing from a howitzer, shots with fragmentation, smoke, lighting and incendiary projectiles are used. Ammunition - 47 shells and 52 charge. The maximum firing range of an ordinary high-explosive projectile is 30 km, and the high-explosive fragmentation projectile with a special bottom pyrotechnic nozzle is 39 km.
The fire control system (FCS), in addition to day and night sights, includes a laser range finder and an electronic ballistic computer. It can be connected to the battery MSA, receiving from there the necessary target indication.

Serial production of ACS began in the year 1988. Prior to this, several vehicles were tested during the fighting of the Yuarovo troops in Angola. At the end of 1990, the G6 party was acquired by the army of the United Arab Emirates.

The creation of two quite successful samples of ACS on wheeled chassis pushed designers in other countries to design similar systems. At the same time, one common tendency emerged - the rejection of the use of heavy multi-axle chassis and armor protection.

In fact, we are talking about replacing a conventional gun carriage along with a wheel drive and beds on a two or three-axle off-road truck. The creators are captivated by the high mobility of such systems, as well as the willingness to quickly open fire.


ATMOS system (Autonomous TruckMounted System)

One of the typical samples of new ACSs is the ATMOS system (Autonomous TruckMounted System), created by the Israeli company Soltam on the chassis of the Czechoslovak Tatra 815 truck (version 6x6). At the rear of the chassis are mounted a swinging part and an upper 155mm howitzer machine with a barrel length of 52 caliber. This ACS was created in 2001, almost by order of the Indian army, which shows increased interest in such systems.

The MOVAT - 105mm howitzer system installed on a two-axle truck cargo platform is being tested in the Netherlands. And in France, eight artillery ground troops re-equipped with self-propelled guns from the company Caesar GIAT Industries. 155mm howitzer is installed in the aft chassis of the all-wheel drive truck Renault 6x6. The machine is equipped with a light-armored cabin, fire control devices, as well as boxes for placing projectiles and charges. However, by the car they are transported a little. SAU Caesar can be transported by C130 aircraft. The installation is ready to open fire for 2 minutes. It should be noted that the United States and other NATO countries are showing interest in developing such systems.
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111 comments
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  1. +14
    2 February 2013 10: 04
    Speaking about the wonderful qualities of the wheelbase for self-propelled guns, one should not forget that, for example, the South African G6 (an undeniably remarkable system in its class) was entirely created taking into account the hostilities in the vast veld (bush, pronounced steppe zone). For these conditions, the wheelbase is more than ideal ...
    Almost the same can be said about the Czech “Dana”. Center of Europe. Sufficiently developed road network. Moreover, very high quality ...

    And now (for the sake of interest) mentally dip the samples shown in the material into the muddy soil of our Black Earth ...
    I am not against wheeled vehicles as weapons carriers. However, the base should be chosen very meticulously, taking into account many factors, among which, first of all, soil and climatic conditions should be taken into account ...

    Regarding the material itself. Great review. Five plus ...
    1. +2
      2 February 2013 10: 43
      Quote: Chicot 1
      And now (for the sake of interest) mentally dip the samples shown in the material into the muddy soil of our Black Earth ...


      And you mentally dip the towed D-30 with the Ural tractor into the soggy soil of the non-black earth. Do you think they will get around there much better? (I will not talk about more extreme things like "Genocide" 2A36 with a regular "KrAZ")
      1. +6
        2 February 2013 13: 42
        Towed artillery is a separate issue. Here we are talking about self-propelled guns on a wheelbase ... But answering your question, dear Lopatov (and you "+" for him), I can say that the tractor can be tracked. The same D-30, for example, were towed by MTLB. And towed pretty well. We can say that it is very good ...
        But the examples you cited with "Ural" and KrAZ once again demonstrate that under certain conditions the wheel outright loses to the goose in cross-country ability ...
        1. +1
          2 February 2013 16: 37
          Quote: Chicot 1
          Those D-30s, for example, were towed by MTLB. And towed pretty well. We can say that which is very good ...

          But at the same time, such a complex (D-30 + MT-LB) acquires the worst from both self-propelled and towed artillery.
          From the first - low operational mobility, from the second - low security and low tactical mobility, due primarily to the long time of transfer from marching to combat and vice versa.
          What is the point?
          1. +7
            2 February 2013 16: 53
            Quote: Spade
            But at the same time, such a complex (D-30 + MT-LB) acquires the worst from both self-propelled and towed artillery.



            The campaign began nonsense.

            Somehow everyone forgot about money, expediency and tactical environment.
            For example, all these arguments do not stop the sale of towed artillery around the world, as well as finding it in service.
            1. +1
              2 February 2013 16: 58
              Quote: Kars
              The campaign began nonsense.

              "Campaign" Do you consider yourself so authoritative that you don’t exchange arguments for trifles?
              1. +3
                2 February 2013 17: 03
                Quote: Spade
                that the little things like an argument do not exchange?

                And why? Here to the campaign, prove the principle that it is not a camel.
                Quote: Spade
                towed artillery has no advantages before self-propelled
                It has. High operational mobility. And therefore, the opportunity

                From another commentary. Even comments do not bother to read.
                1. 0
                  2 February 2013 17: 46
                  You need a primer. The second time already. You read, but you can’t understand the meaning.
                  Russian language is written:
                  Quote: Spade
                  It gets the worst from both self-propelled and towed artillery.
                  From the first - low operational mobility, from the second - low security and low tactical mobility

                  Where is here about "towed artillery has no advantages"? Oh yes, you "accidentally" inserted other people's words into my quote and build your argumentation on this? Delightful!
                  1. +1
                    2 February 2013 18: 39
                    Quote: Spade
                    You ABC book

                    Thanks to the trip, you all smoked it.

                    Quote: Spade
                    Here "- where exactly

                    Okay, come in more detail.

                    Quote: olp
                    Not only. There is no substitute for her in the mountains
                    unless in the mountains, although at the moment the mountain motorized rifle brigades use 122mm 2S1

                    in all other parts, the replacement of towed guns is fully justified
                    towed artillery has no advantages over self-propelled

                    Quote: Spade
                    Quote: olp
                    towed artillery has no advantages over self-propelled
                    It has. High operational mobility. And therefore, the ability to quickly create an advantage in artillery at a local site. What is needed in defense and offensive.
                    By the way, wheeled self-propelled guns have the same properties, but without the inherent drawbacks of towed artillery


                    smoke further
                    1. +1
                      2 February 2013 18: 51
                      Well, now compare the two phrases
                      Quote: Spade
                      It gets the worst from both self-propelled and towed artillery.
                      From the first - low operational mobility, from the second - low security and low tactical mobility

                      и
                      Quote: Spade
                      It has. High operational mobility.

                      And try to find contradictions in them.

                      It seems that you absolutely do not understand the essence of what you read, just grab familiar phrases and try to challenge them. By virtue of its capabilities, i.e. using killer arguments like
                      Quote: Kars
                      The campaign began nonsense.
                      1. +1
                        2 February 2013 19: 03
                        Quote: Spade
                        You absolutely do not understand the essence of what you read.

                        You write nonsense, and this is not the first time I've noticed this.
                        Quote: Spade
                        From the first - low operational mobility, from the second - low security and low tactical mobility

                        This is just enchanting nonsense.
                      2. 0
                        2 February 2013 19: 09
                        Quote: Kars
                        You write nonsense, and this is not the first time I've noticed this.

                        And you declare nonsense everything that you absolutely do not understand. Without arguments, you simply do not have them. But I really want to support the reputation of a specialist in everything. That's why phrases like
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is just enchanting nonsense.

                        You didn’t understand what I mean, did you?
                      3. bask
                        +2
                        2 February 2013 20: 10
                        Quote: Kars
                        You write nonsense, and this is not the first time I've noticed this.

                        Kars you are already starting, copy the phraseology pimply Not necessary, it does not suit you. SPEAK AS BEFORE FACTS AND KNOWLEDGE OF MATCH.
                      4. +1
                        2 February 2013 20: 13
                        Quote: bask
                        copy the phraseology of pimply

                        If it’s unreasonable, then it can he me.
                        Quote: bask
                        No, it’s not your face

                        Not at a beauty contest.
                        Quote: bask
                        SPEAK AS BEFORE FACTS AND KNOWLEDGE OF MATCH.

                        Not the first time I come across. And I used to call a spade a spade.
                      5. bask
                        0
                        2 February 2013 21: 39
                        Quote: Kars
                        the first time I come across. And I used to call a spade a spade.

                        Yes, call it without any problems.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Not at a beauty contest.

                        Kars /. Not to face it means no rudeness. There are enough boors without you. Or have nothing to write - tired?
                    2. +3
                      2 February 2013 19: 48
                      Quote: Kars
                      smoke further

                      Andrey ...... well, you understand
              2. +5
                2 February 2013 17: 08
                Not long ago I found one article entitled: Lessons from Chechnya and the prospects for the development of armored vehicles.
                http://antisys.narod.ru/uch.html
                I’ll give you an excerpt, the most interesting thing is that in Kazakhstan we probably also read this article, so some weapons appeared. smile
                High mobility weapon. In the conditions of mountainous terrain and mobile war, when the operations of the opposing sides were mainly raiding in nature, active operational artillery support with regimental-divisional caliber calibers of motorized rifle subunits and mobile groups acquired particular importance. The towed and self-propelled artillery of the corresponding calibers, which are in service with the Russian army, does not have sufficient mobility to be in the right place in time. This disadvantage can be partially compensated for by long-range artillery systems with guided ammunition, but this solution is significantly more expensive and requires effective communication and target designation systems. However, it seems optimal to create an ACS with a gun of sufficient caliber installed openly on a wheeled floating chassis. A similar wheeled self-propelled gun with a powerful howitzer-cannon was previously produced in Czechoslovakia. In our case, a significantly lighter system can be created by using the BTR-80 or BTR-90 chassis with the installation of an openly swinging 152 (155) mm Pat howitzer, or by adapting the 130 mm self-propelled gun of the Bereg ".
                1. +2
                  2 February 2013 17: 17
                  Quote: marshes
                  floating chassis gun of sufficient caliber. A similar wheeled self-propelled gun with a powerful howitzer gun was produced earlier in Czechoslovakia. In our case, a substantially lighter system can be created by using the BTR-80 or BTR-90 chassis with the installation of an openly swinging part


                  An easier way is to bundle a tank and a 160-240 mm self-propelled minaret
                  Quote: marshes
                  mountainous conditions and mobile warfare

                  Quote: marshes
                  on a wheeled floating chassis

                  why necessarily floating?
                  1. +1
                    2 February 2013 17: 23
                    Quote: Kars
                    why necessarily floating?

                    Koryavtsev P.M. cited this opinion in the article. The lessons of Chechnya and the prospects for the development of armored vehicles. St. Petersburg: 2006. I just copied it and found it when I was looking for combat use of Shilok and Tungusok.
                    So now we are armed with BMPT, self-propelled mortar Aibat and Semser. smileBy the way, we have Tulips.
                    1. 0
                      2 February 2013 17: 53
                      Quote: marshes
                      By the way, we have Tulips.

                      You were told a tank, then you need a tank base.
                      1. +1
                        2 February 2013 18: 02
                        Quote: Spade
                        You were told a tank, then you need a tank base.

                        In the fall, they signed a memorandum with the Uralvagonzavod on remaking the old T-72s, in a year we’ll see what happens. Although Krasus wrote
                        Quote: Kars
                        An easier way is to bundle a tank and a 160-240 mm self-propelled minaret

                        This is how I understand the tank + Tulip. Because the tank is a tank and a SELF-PROPELLED MORTAR, notice is not just a mortar-160-240mm. smile
                      2. 0
                        2 February 2013 18: 10
                        Quote: marshes
                        This is how I understand the tank + Tulip

                        And this is completely pointless. Now the trend is different - the same tank detects the target and passes its coordinates to the top. And the management system itself decides how to hit this goal.
                      3. +1
                        2 February 2013 18: 17
                        Quote: Spade
                        And this is completely pointless. Now the trend is different - the same tank detects the target and passes its coordinates to the top. And the management system itself decides how to hit this goal.

                        Now at the moment we are developing this system, it seems with the Belarusians.
                      4. +2
                        2 February 2013 18: 23
                        This is to be expected. All three of your art systems. developed jointly with the Israelis, the self-propelled mortar, self-propelled howitzer and MLRS are already ready to be included in this kind of system. So to speak, they are made for growth.
                      5. +1
                        2 February 2013 18: 26
                        Quote: Spade
                        So to speak, they are made for growth.

                        Ours are now studying all military conflicts, drawing conclusions.
                      6. bask
                        +1
                        2 February 2013 20: 30
                        Quote: Spade
                        it is completely pointless. Now the trend is different - the same tank detects the target and passes its coordinates to the top. And already

                        The trend is different, it’s understandable. But the realities of the Russian army are such that the 2C4 mortar,, Tulip, is the most effective weapon for fighting in the mountains and urban conditions .. What he proved with a blaze in the 1st and 2nd Chechen wars It needs serious modernization and development 240 mm. ,, smart ,, ammunition. Shot forgot.
                      7. +1
                        2 February 2013 20: 32
                        I know men from the 24th. Good stuff.
                        Modernization would be good. Moreover, there is a corresponding kit, it just needs to be finalized for this particular SM
                      8. +1
                        2 February 2013 18: 42
                        Quote: marshes
                        This is how I understand the tank + Tulip. Because the tank is a tank and a SELF-PROPELLED MORTAR

                        Not necessarily a Tulip. Whatever you think, the main caliber will be more than 120 mm
                        Quote: Spade
                        And this is completely pointless

                        If honestly then in this thread your comments are absolutely meaningless.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Now the trend is different

                        Where is such a trend? All participants, from UAVs to simple infantrymen, should detect the target.
                      9. -1
                        2 February 2013 18: 54
                        Quote: Kars
                        If honestly then in this thread your comments are absolutely meaningless.

                        You simply do not have the skills to understand what is written to understand their meaning.
                        And this phrase of yours brilliantly confirms my impression:

                        Quote: Kars
                        Where is such a trend? All participants, from UAVs to simple infantrymen, should detect the target.
                      10. +2
                        2 February 2013 19: 05
                        Quote: Spade
                        Where is this trend? All participants, from UAVs to simple infantrymen, should detect the target


                        But the funny thing is that about the trend of target detection by tanks you have not confirmed your words.

                        And you didn’t refute my goals that all participants must discover ALL participants.
                        I would like to see how the tank will detect targets out of line of sight.
                      11. 0
                        2 February 2013 19: 14
                        Quote: Kars
                        But the funny thing is that about the trend of target detection by tanks you have not confirmed your words.

                        Try to express your thoughts normally, I did not understand you.


                        Quote: Kars
                        I would like to see how the tank will detect targets out of line of sight.

                        I wrote that you have problems understanding the text. Here is what the phrase carries:
                        Quote: Spade
                        Now the trend is different - the same tank detects the target

                        That's right, a tank is one of the target designation channels for other weapons. Один из- Do you understand the meaning of this phrase?
                      12. bask
                        +2
                        2 February 2013 20: 16
                        Quote: Spade
                        m said the tank, then you need a tank base

                        Why rush to extremes right away For self-propelled guns ..... GM GM 123 is quite suitable ,, Acacia ,,,, Geacind ,, Tulip ,,
                2. 0
                  2 February 2013 18: 01
                  The conclusions are incorrect. Although the correct path in your quote is present:
                  In part, this shortcoming can be compensated by long-range artillery systems with guided ammunition, but this solution is significantly more expensive and requires effective communication systems and target designation.

                  Only this drawback is not compensated in part, but in full. And it still needs to be done.
                  But about the "BTR-80 (90) with the installation of an openly swinging part of the 152-mm howitzer" Pat "" - pure nonsense. And the APC as a base for this kind of self-propelled guns is inapplicable, and the "Pat" thing, to put it mildly, has too many disadvantages.
                  1. +1
                    2 February 2013 18: 12
                    Quote: Spade
                    Only this drawback is not compensated in part, but in full. And it still needs to be done.
                    But about the "BTR-80 (90) with the installation of an openly swinging part of the 152-mm howitzer" Pat "" - pure nonsense. And the APC as a base for this kind of self-propelled guns is inapplicable, and the "Pat" thing, to put it mildly, has too many disadvantages.

                    I wrote to Kars that this is the opinion of Koryavtsev P.M. , we just used what we have, KAMAZs are being assembled here, and since the time of the USSR, D-30s were in warehouses. Here they started collecting BTR-4, let's see what happens, the contract ends in 2013, It’s not a fact that they will be to have something in common with Ukrainian BTR-4.
                    1. +1
                      2 February 2013 18: 17
                      I got it.
                      What yours are doing, I think is right. Nearly. The KAMAZ cabin could be booked. Shrapnel, no more. And so - a very effective and relatively inexpensive installation.
                      1. +1
                        2 February 2013 18: 31
                        Quote: Spade
                        What yours are doing, I think is right. Nearly. The KAMAZ cabin could be booked. Shrapnel, no more. And so - a very effective and relatively inexpensive installation.

                        Over time, they might reserve it, just for new weapons we have little information to learn only by parades or exhibitions. smile I didn’t even know that we had 60mm mortars in our arsenal, I just saw them in the news about the exercises. Even many types of weapons would flash somewhere.
              3. +1
                2 February 2013 19: 38
                What a dumb minuser? Looks like I know who this mask is (s)
              4. bask
                +4
                2 February 2013 20: 06
                Quote: Spade

                "Campaign" You consider yourself so authoritative that you do not exchange arguments for trifles.

                On tanks, but authority in ,, law ,, - a joke. By art. systems authority was DIMS. But he disappeared somewhere. The excellent complex of coast guard ,, Shore ,, 130 mm has already been in service with the Russian Armed Forces since 95. Upgrade it to 152 mm. It will not be a big problem. A 2A65 howitzer cannon ,, Msta ,, is quite suitable.
                1. +2
                  2 February 2013 22: 10
                  Sorry. I would talk.

                  "The coast" is good, my classmate served on it. But heavy, contagion.
                  1. +2
                    2 February 2013 22: 21
                    Judging by the signature, this is Coalition-SV.
                    1. +1
                      2 February 2013 22: 27
                      And this is your project.
                    2. +2
                      2 February 2013 22: 32
                      This is "Msta-K" - an experimental sample. We tried to create a wheeled 2S19. Why they refused, I don't know.

                      "Coalition" is a completely different topic. It's all about modular charges. That is, in reaching the world level. This will create a full-fledged automatic loader. Now in 2S19 it is only a shell, the charges are thrown onto the tray manually.
                      1. +1
                        2 February 2013 22: 42
                        Quote: Spade
                        This is "Msta-K" - an experimental sample. We tried to create a wheeled 2S19. Why they refused, I don't know.

                        As I understand it, you have a rather powerful bureaucracy, years pass from idea to execution.
                      2. bask
                        +1
                        2 February 2013 22: 46
                        Quote: marshes

                        As I understand it, you have a fairly powerful bureaucracy, a year goes from idea to execution

                        Not so much bureaucracy. How much the rotten system of oligarchic capitalism itself. Which can only drain resources, and create 000 ..
                      3. +1
                        2 February 2013 22: 51
                        Quote: bask
                        Not so much bureaucracy. How much the rotten system of oligarchic capitalism itself. Which can only drain resources, and create 000 ..

                        Well, ours, too, have not gone far from yours, but at least they are trying to do something for the state, which means there is interest, leaving a good memory about ourselves.
                      4. +1
                        2 February 2013 22: 52
                        Here is another case. The car fell under the collapse of the USSR. Then a lot of things were lost in this way.
                      5. bask
                        0
                        2 February 2013 22: 49
                        Quote: Spade
                        Now in 2S19 it’s only shell, charges are being thrown onto the hand tray

                        With a loading sleeve ???
                      6. bask
                        +3
                        3 February 2013 09: 02
                        Quote: Spade
                        create a wheeled 2С19. Why refused, I don’t know.

                        We are only trying to create everything. Why not create ??? Serbian NORA 155 mm. On the dase of our Kamaz, With a reserved cabin. With duplicated automation ...
          2. +4
            2 February 2013 19: 41
            Ah ha ... Avona as however ... So, a bunch of MTLB plus D-30 acquires the worst qualities from self-propelled guns and towed guns ... Nu-nu ...
            Only one question - does the Ural plus D-30 bundle have higher operational mobility and less time to transfer from the traveling position to the combat position? ..
            Or you, dear Lopatov, do you think that self-propelled guns on a wheelbase will have better cross-country ability than wheeled tractors? .. If "yes", then you are grossly mistaken ...
            And one more thing - the time to deploy the artillery system is completely independent of whether it was delivered to a position by a tractor or wheeled or tracked. It directly depends on the design of the gun and training calculation ...

            And as I understand it from all your posts, you, dear Lopatov, not so much against the goose, how much against the towed artillery ... I will tell you frankly - it's you in vain, it's you in vain. The towed artillery will take place in the armies of the whole world for a long time. A very long time. Do not agree with this statement of mine? .. So let's argue ... wink
            1. 0
              2 February 2013 19: 57
              Quote: Chicot 1
              Only one question - does the Ural plus D-30 bundle have higher operational mobility and less time to transfer from the traveling position to the combat position? ..

              Operational mobility is higher. Translation time is the same.

              Quote: Chicot 1
              Or do you, dear Lopatov, think that self-propelled guns on a wheelbase will have better cross-country ability than wheeled tractors?

              No. But the time of transfer from combat to marching and vice versa will decrease. Plus it’s easier to equip such things

              Quote: Chicot 1
              And as I understand it from all your posts, you, dear Lopatov, are not so much against a goose, how many against towed artillery ...

              No, I believe that each sample should be in place.
              Caterpillars in a division link (when they appear) - brigade,
              Wheel self-propelled guns - in army and higher
              Towed - mountains, airborne forces, aero mobilists (here, however, we need a normal towed gun that can transport the Mi-8
              1. +2
                2 February 2013 22: 20
                I am also for a balanced approach in choosing a base for the carrier of one or another weapon. What I wrote about in my first comment on this topic ...
                However, I do not see the special advantages of wheeled tractors over crawler ones where it comes to the lack of roads with a more or less prepared track. And about complete off-roadness there is nothing to say ... Moreover, the towing speed of artillery systems is limited. And even more so, it will be limited on rough terrain ...

                By the way, for mountain conditions, the wheel seems to be the most suitable for me. I judge this by my own observations, having experience in the mountains ...
                There, in the mountains, I had to work with artillery. So I have a practical idea about bringing guns from a traveling position to a combat one ...
                1. +1
                  2 February 2013 22: 40
                  When we climbed into the mountains, we left all the wheels below. And that was the right decision. There the tanks got stuck.

                  Tracked tractors? Just in case of emergency. If you need to transfer over a long distance, they will not go. In any case, the whole goose will be allowed along column roads, not along roads. I'm talking about a normal war. It’s in Chechnya that we’ve gouged all the asphalt
                  1. bask
                    +2
                    3 February 2013 10: 32
                    Quote: Spade
                    When we climbed into the mountains, we left all the wheels below. And that was the right decision. There the tanks got stuck.

                    Tracked tractors? Just in case of emergency. If you need to transfer over a long distance, they will not go. Anyway

                    That is, you need a specialized general-purpose chassis for self-propelled guns with high cross-country ability, for action in the mountains. The mass is not more than 20 tons and the cargo capacity is at least 10 tons. MT-S Type civil ТМ-130
                    1. +2
                      3 February 2013 13: 03
                      Normal device. Book a cabin and it’s fine
            2. bask
              +3
              2 February 2013 21: 18
              Quote: Chicot 1

              Ah ha ... Avona as however ... So, a bunch of MTLB plus D-30 acquires the worst qualities from self-propelled guns and towed guns ...

              Sorry to wedge into your dispute. My dear Chicot .. I am also an opponent of towed artillery. Efficiency and deployment time. All having driven towed. I had a friend in Angola. And I experienced what a high-precision and mobile self-propelled guns Rino. 87 in South Africa, there were no more than 10 of them. But they managed to fire along the entire front line. Is towed artillery capable of this ??? MT-LB.
              1. +4
                2 February 2013 21: 28
                Quote: bask
                But they managed to shell along the entire front line

                Was there a front line? I hear it for the first time.

                And vryatli they had time to shell everything.

                Quote: bask
                SPG Rino

                45 tons, on wheels worth a dozen bundles of MT-LB D-30

                Also, do not compare Reno, it is by itself without a chassis much more powerful than the D-30 or even the Geocinta. Especially the latest versions.

                So here it is necessary to understand how the Artillery in general are going to use.
                If the battery in Chechnya or Vietnam, mounted on a hill, worked from one place for months, then the point is in expensive self-propelled guns?
                1. bask
                  +1
                  2 February 2013 21: 52
                  Quote: Kars
                  Am there was a front line? I hear for the first time.

                  Show. ???
                  Quote: Kars
                  tons, on wheels worth a dozen bundles of MT-LB D-30

                  Quantity does not always mean quality. One G-6 Rino, just replaces the 10-towed D-30 GSH MT-LB with a range of 15-20 cells.
                  1. +1
                    2 February 2013 22: 19
                    Quote: bask
                    Show. ???

                    Show. The map does not mean anything. Especially in Russian.
                    The conflict was distinguished by the lack of a front line.
                    Quote: bask
                    .One G-6 Rino, just replaces the 10-towed D-30 GSH MT-LB with a range of 15-20 cells

                    In 5 different places? And by the way, knocking out one Rino is 10 times easier than 10 D-30s.

                    It is a pity the question remained unanswered
                    Quote: Kars
                    So here it is necessary to understand how the Artillery in general are going to use
                    1. bask
                      +1
                      2 February 2013 22: 42
                      Quote: Kars
                      show. The card doesn’t mean anything. Especially in Russian

                      The Yuarovskys to Afrikos are in English only. And what do you mean by the front line? Of course, not the trench war of 14-18 years. There was a modern asymmetric raid war. And despite all the help of the USSR and the heroism of our advisers and Cuban volunteers. The situation turned out to be a stalemate. could not defeat the Yuarovtsev. And including the competent use of G-6,, Reno ,,
                      Quote: Kars
                      different places? And by the way, knocking out one Reno is 10 times easier than 10 D-30s.
                      40 cells range. Podbeby try. And cover with the G-6 ,,, D-30 battery without problems So it was in Angola.
                      1. +1
                        2 February 2013 22: 49
                        Quote: bask
                        what do you mean by the front line

                        Therefore she was not there.
                        Quote: bask
                        We could not defeat the Yuarovtsev. And including the competent use of G-6,, Reno ,,

                        Too much honor for the top ten self-propelled guns. Can you still have the number of shots fired?
                        Quote: bask
                        40 cl range

                        True? 40 km? And is it really common OFS for 45 cells (barrel length 45 calibres) and with what dispersion?
                        Quote: bask
                        So it was in Angola

                        Wasn’t it like that, and was it really 40 km in 1981--89?
                      2. bask
                        +2
                        2 February 2013 23: 37
                        Quote: Kars
                        e? there didn’t seem to be like that. And was it really from 40 km in 1981--89

                        In 89, the barrel length is 45 calibres. 36 tons Cruising range 400 C. Speed ​​90 hours on the highway and 45 hours on the shroud. Link. [Media = http: //www.dogswar.ru/bronetehnika/say-zsy/668-samohodnaia-artilleriiska
                        ia-ys.] TMVA MK-OG radar station. AS-80 fire control system 30-cl. conventional ammunition firing range. 37 cl. improved aerodynamic form.
                      3. +1
                        2 February 2013 23: 47
                        Quote: bask
                        In '89, length

                        it has something to do with
                        Quote: bask
                        We could not defeat the Yuarovtsev. And including the competent use of G-6,, Reno ,,

                        we? in 1989?
                        Quote: bask
                        barrel length 45 calibres. 36 tons Cruising range 400 C. Speed ​​90 C. h on the highway and 45 C.

                        artillery Shunkov 47 tons 30 km conventional OFS 600 power reserve

                        Quote: bask
                        conventional ammunition 30-cl

                        what you were asked about.

                        So I don’t understand anything what you are proving.
                      4. +1
                        3 February 2013 00: 08
                        Quote: Kars
                        Wasn’t it like that, and was it really 40 km in 1981--89?

                        Let me see ... Bull was jailed in 1980. This means that shells with a firing range of 39 km were already produced in South Africa in 1981-89.
                      5. -2
                        3 February 2013 00: 35
                        Quote: Spade
                        Let me see...

                        It’s not worth it to you.
                        Quote: Spade
                        This means that shells with a firing range of 39 km were already produced in South Africa in 1981-89.

                        and Reno was adopted in 1988.

                        And there are real facts about the application of the experiment. Rino that destroyed D-30 batteries from 40 km?
                      6. bask
                        +1
                        3 February 2013 00: 41
                        Quote: Kars

                        It’s not worth it to you.

                        Thinking is not harmful to anyone. And so the country is full of fools.
                        Quote: Kars
                        There are real facts about the use of the experiment. Rino that destroyed D-30 batteries from 40 km?

                        Only on the recollections of military specialists from the USSR who fought in South Africa. The rest is in English.
                      7. 0
                        3 February 2013 01: 01
                        Quote: bask
                        Only on the recollections of military specialists from the USSR who fought in South Africa. The rest in English

                        I imagine how they rumored to determine the range to the enemy fire and the type of 155 mm gun firing it.
                      8. bask
                        +1
                        3 February 2013 10: 43
                        Quote: Kars
                        I see how they rumored to determine the range to the enemy fire and the type of 155 mm gun firing it.

                        Our reconnaissance in Angola was at its height. And from what distance the fire was being fired. ((The academies were finishing (((((. Almost all by then had passed Afghanistan ... Everyone had combat experience ....
                      9. 0
                        3 February 2013 16: 27
                        Quote: bask
                        Our intelligence in Angola was on top

                        Really? And what is it? Aerial reconnaissance? Instrumental? How many artillery radars were there?
                        Quote: bask
                        And from what distance the fire could be conducted. ((The academies were finishing

                        Enlighten how they did it? And how distinguished Reno G6 from simple G 5 for an example.
                        Quote: bask
                        Everyone had combat experience ....

                        And in fact you yourself wrote
                        Quote: bask
                        We could not defeat the Yuarovtsev. And including the competent use of G-6,, Reno ,,

                        And all the same, it is desirable what specifics
                      10. +2
                        3 February 2013 13: 04
                        That is, by 1988, South African technology lost? Somehow little is believed in it.
                      11. +3
                        2 February 2013 23: 11
                        This is the Rheinmetall Wheeled Gun -52. The base is like that of the South African G-6, but art. part at the modern level. Full automatic loader.

              2. +4
                2 February 2013 22: 34
                I wrote about G6 in my first comment. Its success (I repeat) to a large extent is the result of the right choice of chassis for this theater. And in this regard, the South African engineers deserve the highest praise ...
                Alas, all this has done us harm ...

                And now, with regards to the alleged shortcomings of towed systems in comparison with self-propelled guns ... I will cite the same Yuarovites ... Having a wonderful G6 self-propelled guns, they don’t even think about abandoning the towed G5. Why?..

                However, if you look at this issue from a different angle, you can safely say that the self-propelled guns also have drawbacks in relation to towed artillery systems. For example, great technical complexity, high cost, it was necessary to use special transport-loading machines on some of them (which also translates into a greater cost of the entire complex), longer reconservation time and full alert ...
                Yes, they seem to be like not so many of these very shortcomings. But it’s precisely they who determine, and will for a long time, determine whether the towed artillery systems are in service ...
                1. +1
                  2 February 2013 22: 47
                  Quote: Chicot 1
                  And now, with regards to the alleged shortcomings of towed systems in comparison with self-propelled guns ... I will cite the same Yuarovites ... Having a wonderful G6 self-propelled guns, they don’t even think about abandoning the towed G5. Why?..

                  Features of tactics. Towed in hospitals, self-propelled - in units.
                2. +2
                  2 February 2013 22: 51
                  Quote: Chicot 1
                  ACS G6 they do not think to abandon the towed G5. Why?..

                  I suspect there is no
                  bask,
                  Lopatov,

                  And Khrushchev, too, was never observed with rocket addiction
                  1. +1
                    2 February 2013 23: 01
                    And it’s just not clear what the Yankees are doing in tug of war.
                    1. +1
                      2 February 2013 23: 16
                      Do you know what a "titanium" M777 is? You think something is cheap, and Americans, British, Canadians, etc. Is it why they buy it so actively?
                      1. +1
                        2 February 2013 23: 21
                        Quote: Spade
                        what is the "titanium" M777

                        Is it self-propelled?
                      2. +1
                        2 February 2013 23: 25
                        Airmobile
                      3. +1
                        2 February 2013 23: 31
                        Quote: Spade
                        Airmobile

                        That is, you want to say that it is transported exclusively by aviation means?

                        Armaments of the Yankees

                        M109 "Paladin" Self-propelled artillery gun 950
                        M119 Howitzer 498
                        M198 Howitzer 653
                        M777 Howitzer 360

                        What do you say wheeled self-propelled guns here?
                      4. +1
                        2 February 2013 23: 43
                        No, I want to say that this is the only 155-mm howitzer in the world that can be transported on the external suspension of a helicopter. And that's why they buy it. Despite the fact that its cost of $ 3.5 million is very high.
                      5. 0
                        3 February 2013 16: 30
                        Quote: Spade
                        And that's why they buy it

                        That is, besides it, towed art systems are no longer bought and sold in the world? Are you sure? Maybe they are not produced yet? They are not in operation?
                      6. bask
                        0
                        2 February 2013 23: 56
                        Quote: Kars
                        Is it self-propelled?

                        In Afghanistan, ours did not sit at the bases. Therefore, they mainly used self-propelled guns at the General Staff. ,, Geocind-C ,, Do not take axle boxes along the mountain serpentine. Our
                      7. +1
                        3 February 2013 00: 00
                        Quote: bask
                        In Afghanistan, ours did not sit at the bases. Therefore, they mainly used self-propelled guns at the General Staff. ,, geocind

                        In Afghanistan, that just did not use.

                        M 198 in the Bure in the Desert 1991
                    2. PLO
                      +1
                      2 February 2013 23: 19
                      In general, I believe that despite the fact that the "Orlan" is a good ship, IMHO, we do not need these giants now, but 21956 and a lot. At least as much as the potential adversary Ticonderogo.

                      and that the Taliban had heavy modern weapons
                      but against the partisans that are towed that sau are equally good

                      then it’s better to recall 888, the Russian Federation and did not think of introducing towed artillery into Ossetia, only the Georgians used it, not for long though
                      1. +1
                        2 February 2013 23: 27
                        There was nowhere. The closest is in Volgodonsk, as far as I remember. 58 A did not have towed artillery.
                      2. bask
                        +1
                        3 February 2013 00: 12
                        Quote: Kars
                        M 198 in the Bure in the Desert 1991

                        Yankers, what is the standard of military thought and strategy ???
                        Quote: olp
                        it’s better to recall 888, the Russian Federation, and did not think of introducing towed artillery into Ossetia, only Georgians used it
                        They have their own combat experience, we have our own. A multimillion-strong army of Russia is not foreseen in the near future. Therefore, only self-propelled guns on the main gun and wheeled chassis should be in the brigades. Aerial vehicles, only in mountain brigades and airborne forces.
                      3. +1
                        3 February 2013 00: 33
                        Quote: bask
                        Yankers, what is the standard of military thought and strategy ???

                        And why not, the most granny army uses towed cannons. M198 is in service with a dozen countries.
                        And who is the benchmark? India buys hundreds of axle guns. Recently, the article was not titanium Americans.
                        Quote: bask
                        Therefore, only self-propelled guns on the main gun and wheeled chassis should be in the brigades. Airmobile, only in mountain brigades and airborne

                        but who is against it, just don’t have to distort the movement of military thought. In the USSR, for example, wheeled Dans did not take root. In Georgia, they did not show themselves.
                      4. bask
                        0
                        3 February 2013 00: 55
                        Quote: Kars
                        weapons of a dozen countries.
                        And who is the benchmark? India buys hundreds of axle guns. Recently, the article was not titanium Americans.
                        Quote: bask

                        The Hindus have a multi-million army.
                        Quote: Kars
                        otiv, just do not distort the movement of military thought. In the USSR, for example, wheeled Dana did not take root. In Georgia, they did not show themselves.

                        In the hands of the Georgians, some equipment did not show itself. In the USSR they always tried to betray mobility to the troops. Remembering the lessons of the Second World War ..
                      5. 0
                        3 February 2013 01: 14
                        Quote: bask
                        Hindus have a multi-million army

                        So 400 Japanese FH70s will not say anything for you either. Although I don’t understand what you need.
                        Quote: bask
                        In the USSR, they always tried to betray mobility to the troops. Remembering the lessons of the Second World War ..

                        Especially in artillery under Khrushchev.
                    3. bask
                      0
                      2 February 2013 23: 44
                      Quote: Kars

                      And it’s just not clear what the Yankees are doing in tug of war.

                      Kars In Afghanistan. .Bucks are wetted by the Yankers because they don’t foot outside their bases. And they mainly use the M777A2 to defend their bases. On them .. mobility ..
                      1. bask
                        0
                        3 February 2013 01: 05
                        Quote: bask

                        . Remembering the lessons of the Second World War ..

                        This is another example of ZIS -3 ... On which GS is not known. 1943.
                      2. +1
                        3 February 2013 13: 07
                        On the basis of "Komsomolets". ZiS-30. Not 1943, by this time they were all promoted. 41-42 years
                3. bask
                  0
                  2 February 2013 23: 03
                  Quote: Chicot 1
                  Cove. But it’s precisely they who determine, and will for a long time, determine whether the towed artillery systems are in service ...

                  I also wrote in my post that the towed airborne howitzer type M777A2 is needed by the airborne units. Mountain brigades. But with asymmetric modern wars. Mobility comes in the first place, range-accuracy of firing. Firing rate .. And a quick change of position ..
                  1. bask
                    0
                    2 February 2013 23: 11
                    Quote: bask
                    asymmetric modern wars. .

                    The best self-propelled guns in the world, wheeled, for the present, Archer,
                    1. +2
                      2 February 2013 23: 23
                      ________
                      Chassis may be different
                      1. +1
                        2 February 2013 23: 30
                        This is their new, universal artillery unit. You can put it anywhere, even stationary. The only drawback is completely "deserted", no duplication, only automation
                      2. bask
                        0
                        3 February 2013 00: 29
                        Quote: Spade
                        new, universal art part. You can put it anywhere, even stationary. The only drawback is completely "deserted", no duplication, only automatic

                        You can argue MBT, Armata,, Tag tower is uninhabited ... For a tank this is a jamb. And for the self-propelled guns I think just right. That from RPGs at point blank range did not shy away. Reservation shatterproof.
                    2. 0
                      2 February 2013 23: 24
                      Not the best. It is simply most actively advertised.
                  2. +2
                    2 February 2013 23: 22
                    Quote: bask
                    What towed airborne howitzer type M777A2 Need units of the Airborne Forces

                    Strange you made a hint
                    Quote: Chicot 1
                    Having a wonderful G6 self-propelled guns, they don’t even think about giving up the towed G5. Why?..
                    1. bask
                      0
                      3 February 2013 00: 35
                      Quote: Kars
                      Strange you made a hint

                      How much time has gone. To make the first shot, a coordinated calculation from the G-5
                      1. 0
                        3 February 2013 00: 44
                        Quote: bask
                        How long did it take. To make the first shot, a coordinated calculation from G-

                        In the know that the video is not G-5?

                        And from the answer the availability of the South African G-5 will change?

                        two minutes for the transition from traveling to combat. 5 members of the calculation.
                      2. +1
                        3 February 2013 13: 08
                        Quote: Kars
                        two minutes for the transition from traveling to combat. 5 members of the calculation.

                        In modern warfare they are corpses.
                      3. 0
                        3 February 2013 16: 20
                        Quote: Spade
                        In modern warfare they are corpses

                        Are you in a modern war? Where is it?
                        In Mali? In Afghanistan? Angola? Sierra Lyon? Syria?
                        WHERE?
          3. bask
            -1
            2 February 2013 19: 54
            Quote: Spade
            Ohm, such a complex (D-30 + MT-LB) gets the worst from both self-propelled and towed artillery.
            From the first - low operational mobility, from the second

            To the point of Lopatov MT-LB .. As a morally obsolete and low-security GSh chassis. For civilian use by gas and oil industry workers. Only use MT-S, MT-SM and GM 123 on self-propelled guns weighing 23 tons and carrying capacities of up to 15 tons.
            Quote: Kars
            The campaign began nonsense.

            Bullshit when in Chechnya massively used MT = LB, whose armor was pierced right through with armor-piercing 7.62 bullets. It can be used in the Arctic latitudes but only after deep modernization.
            1. +7
              2 February 2013 20: 04
              Quote: bask
              Bullshit when in Chechnya massively used MT = LB, whose armor will penetrate

              Bullshit is when artillery with a range of fire of 15-20 km is pulled by small arms fire.
              1. bask
                0
                2 February 2013 21: 01
                Quote: Kars
                rotting 15-20 km, firing at small arms.

                What small arms have a range of 15-20 km.
                1. +3
                  2 February 2013 22: 23
                  Quote: bask
                  What small arms have a range of 15-20 km.

                  This is what you need to ask. You are lamenting about
                  Quote: bask
                  Bullshit when in Chechnya massively used MT = LB, whose armor was pierced through with armor-piercing 7.62 bullets

                  In the topic where it is about MT-LB as an artillery tractor. And artillery in the above privacy
            2. +1
              2 February 2013 20: 11
              They were used in Chechnya because we have no more cars with such cross-country ability.
              1. bask
                0
                2 February 2013 21: 00
                Quote: Spade
                nya, 20:11 ↑ 0 
                They were used in Chechnya because we have no more cars with such cross-country ability.

                Not only because of the cross-country ability. But it’s just that there were no other main guns besides MT-LB .. The average MT-ST was never put into production.
        2. 0
          25 December 2017 10: 10
          Quote: Chicot 1
          Here we are talking about self-propelled guns on a wheelbase.

          And there’s also such a self-propelled gun with a tank turret and a 125 mm gun. So far the test is underway, but then who knows.
      2. bask
        +1
        2 February 2013 19: 43
        Quote: Spade

        And you mentally dip the towed D-30 with the Ural tractor into the soggy soil of the non-black earth. Do you think they will get around there much better? (I will not talk about more extreme things like "Genocide" 2A36 with a regular "KrAZ")

        The topic is separate. But there is a problem .. It is necessary to upgrade all towed artillery to self-propelled artillery on wheels. In the 21st century, towing and subsequent deployment can take a lot of time. D-30 122mm.ATMOS.
        1. +3
          2 February 2013 19: 59
          Towed is also needed. But exclusively in its niches where weight and air transport are important.
          1. bask
            0
            2 February 2013 22: 28
            Quote: Spade

            Towed is also needed. But exclusively in its niches where weight and air transport are important.

            Maybe I agree, but only for airborne troops. Airborne Forces. Then you need to create new art. Systems .. Like English 155 mm M777A2 BAE Systems. The main weight is 4.220 and the range is 40 cells.
            1. +1
              2 February 2013 22: 49
              I absolutely agree here. Towed for the airborne and other similar needs a new one.
    2. +1
      2 February 2013 10: 57
      That's right) You, Chicot, got ahead of me. From myself, I want to add that in most of our homeland such cars are doomed to ride on the highway, which are few in number. If you are lucky with the weather, they will go to the country. After all, their weight is increased in comparison with the usual armored personnel carrier. Plus sustainability. It’s not very comfortable to shoot at the wheelbase at an angle to the course ..
  2. +2
    2 February 2013 10: 13
    With self-propelled guns on wheels, as with any other equipment - if there is a niche for such equipment in the military doctrine and in the concept of using troops - you need to create it. No - not horseradish and bother. And then they will do it again, and then they will scratch their turnips - where to put it.
    Think first, then do, and not vice versa!
    1. 0
      2 February 2013 10: 48
      There is a niche - replacement of towed guns. Operational mobility is maintained, in general, the installation is more convenient to use.
      1. Akim
        +4
        2 February 2013 10: 56
        Quote: Spade

        There is a niche - replacement of towed guns

        Not a single "weighty" country has abandoned towed artillery
        . Military reform in Russia, reforming units is something incomprehensible.
        1. 0
          2 February 2013 11: 02
          Its only plus at the moment is the ability to airborne.
          All.
          "Significant countries" buy super-expensive M777, "titanium howitzers", for this very reason.
          1. Akim
            +1
            2 February 2013 11: 14
            Quote: Spade
            Its only plus at the moment is the ability to transfer by air. Everything.

            Not only. In the mountains she has no substitute. And about the chariots. European NATO countries use both wheeled and tracked chassis.
            1. +1
              2 February 2013 11: 25
              In the mountains? Anything can be applied there. Preferably on a tracked base.
              Or transferring artillery from one OP to another by helicopters, so that we again return to air transport.
              1. Akim
                -1
                2 February 2013 11: 37
                Quote: Spade
                Preferably on a tracked base.

                And when the self-propelled guns began to ride donkeys?
                1. +1
                  2 February 2013 11: 42
                  Why should they "jump"? We have tea not during the First World War
                  1. Akim
                    +1
                    2 February 2013 11: 49
                    Quote: Spade
                    Why should they "jump"?

                    I know that it is very difficult for our helicopters to transport a howitzer on an external sling.
                    1. 0
                      2 February 2013 11: 58
                      Better not like that. It is hard for our helicopters to transport our howitzers.
            2. PLO
              +1
              2 February 2013 14: 15
              Not only. There is no substitute for her in the mountains

              unless in the mountains, although at the moment the mountain motorized rifle brigades use 122mm 2S1

              in all other parts, the replacement of towed guns is fully justified
              towed artillery has no advantages over self-propelled
              1. 0
                2 February 2013 16: 42
                Quote: olp
                towed artillery has no advantages over self-propelled

                It has. High operational mobility. And therefore, the ability to quickly create an advantage in artillery at a local site. What is needed in defense and offensive.
                By the way, wheeled self-propelled guns have the same properties, but without the inherent drawbacks of towed artillery.
                1. PLO
                  +1
                  2 February 2013 18: 30
                  It has. High operational mobility. And therefore, the ability to quickly create an advantage in artillery at a local site. What is needed in defense and offensive.

                  high operational mobility?
                  what do you mean by that? more specific please

                  in a modern war, towed artillery simply does not have time to change position after artillery raid, so there can be no talk of any mobility
                  1. +1
                    2 February 2013 18: 45
                    Quote: olp
                    high operational mobility?
                    what do you mean by that? more specific please

                    Transfer to 100-300-500 km. along the line of contact with the enemy. You will recall to whom, in fact, art was subordinated. parts and formations in which the armament had towed guns. This is an army level and above. Subordinates, in divisions and regiments throughout the state had self-propelled guns (we don’t take airborne forces and other specific troops)

                    Quote: olp
                    in a modern war, towed artillery simply doesn’t have time to change position after an artillery strike,

                    Wheel self-propelled guns solve this problem. While maintaining high operational mobility.
                    1. PLO
                      0
                      2 February 2013 18: 53
                      Wheel self-propelled guns solve this problem. While maintaining high operational mobility.

                      uh? belay
                      then what is the advantage of towed guns over self-propelled guns?
                      1. 0
                        2 February 2013 18: 56
                        Towed guns and wheeled self-propelled guns have the advantage of high operational mobility.
                      2. +1
                        2 February 2013 19: 02
                        Quote: Spade
                        advantage in high operational mobility

                        decrypt)))))))
                      3. 0
                        2 February 2013 19: 16
                        Quote: Spade
                        Transfer to 100-300-500 km. along the line of contact with the enemy.

                        in order to have
                        Quote: Spade
                        the ability to quickly create an advantage in artillery at a local site.
                      4. 0
                        2 February 2013 19: 21
                        Are you LOCAL primarily with a shoulder of 300-500 km? When is this not even army submission, but a group of fronts?

                        This is what you have artillery saturation on the front km to drive artillery over 300 500 km, removing from the contact line, and not using the RGVK
                      5. 0
                        2 February 2013 19: 34
                        Quote: Kars
                        Are you LOCAL primarily with a shoulder of 300-500 km? When is this not even army submission, but a group of fronts?

                        It is possible and groups of fronts. I said that we are talking about artillery, subordinate to the army and above. Reserve VGK also included in this list.
                      6. +1
                        2 February 2013 19: 46
                        Quote: Spade
                        It’s possible and groups of fronts. I said that we are talking about artillery, subordinate to the army and above.

                        It’s not like locality.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Reserve VGK also included in this list.

                        And it is natural along the front line, along rocky roads under its own power for 300 km. All artillery division of the RGK or several.
                      7. 0
                        2 February 2013 20: 03
                        Quote: Kars
                        It’s not like locality.

                        Locally means in a small area of ​​the front.


                        Quote: Kars
                        And its natural along the front line, along rocky roads under its own power

                        And so too. Don't worry too much about "along the front line." Of course, this is first to the rear, then along the road, then towards the enemy.
                      8. +1
                        2 February 2013 22: 25
                        Quote: Spade
                        Locally means in a small section of the front

                        Can not be.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Of course, this is first to the rear, then along the road, then towards the enemy.

                        And at the same time there should be exactly wheeled self-propelled guns that will surpass the Caterpillar ones in this maneuver.

                        Will come again to state nonsense. As well as your story about conscripts against professionals.
                    2. 0
                      2 February 2013 19: 09
                      Quote: Spade
                      Transfer to 100-300-500 km. along the line of contact with the enemy

                      This takes the railway, and along the line of contact under the impact of artillery and tactical aviation of the enemy for 300-500 km under its own power)))))))
                      Quote: Spade
                      Wheel self-propelled guns solve this problem. While maintaining high operational mobility

                      At the same time, they have no advantage over tracked self-propelled guns, but they have worse protection and less cross-country ability.
                      1. 0
                        2 February 2013 19: 29
                        Quote: Kars
                        This takes the railway, and along the line of contact under the impact of artillery and tactical aviation of the enemy for 300-500 km under its own power)))))))

                        As I understand it, the railway does not suffer from artillery and tactical aircraft strikes. And because she is only so busy that art. parts and connections for 100-500 km. throws.

                        Quote: Kars
                        However, they have no advantage over tracked self-propelled guns.

                        They have an advantage in operational mobility.
                      2. +1
                        2 February 2013 19: 37
                        Quote: Spade
                        from artillery and tactical aviation strikes

                        In general, it is much smaller. Since they usually deliver equipment to 20-30 km of the contact line. And they almost do not get hit by artillery strikes. And the fact that they usually go not along the contact line, but radially.
                        Quote: Spade
                        They have an advantage in operational mobility.

                        In no way do they have the advantage of operational mobility.
                        With a big stretch, they have an advantage in expanding and folding in position over the MTLB CHEAP sheaf + howitzer.

                        Quote: Spade
                        And because she is only so busy that art. parts and connections for 100-500 km. throws.

                        and what else? Art is not only guns, but also shells, people, supplies, kitchens, repair units. And if you want to create a LOCAL somewhere, then Sorry, it’s not just that you want to create it — that means tanks, armored personnel carriers are concentrated there, infantry, sappers. Or just to shoot for 500 km to drive?
                      3. 0
                        2 February 2013 19: 46
                        Quote: Kars
                        Generally much less

                        Because the enemy is not able to detect rails?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And the fact that they usually go NOT ALONG the line of contact, but radially.

                        There is such a thing as a rocky railway. Can you guess how it is laid?

                        Quote: Kars
                        In no way do they have the advantage of operational mobility.

                        As I understand it, again without arguments. Why do not possess. At least one argument.


                        Quote: Kars
                        With a big stretch, they have an advantage in expanding and folding in position over the MTLB CHEAP sheaf + howitzer.

                        Well, this can be attributed to the fact that you have never in your life deployed the D-30 at the OP, because you consider this an easy task.

                        Quote: Kars
                        and what else?

                        Under its own power. For example, from Vladikavkaz to the tunnel more than 100 km, I'm not talking about the distance to Java. It is good that ours did not wait for the construction of a separate railway line.
                      4. +1
                        2 February 2013 19: 51
                        Quote: Spade
                        Because the enemy is not able to detect rails?

                        Able, like highways.
                        Quote: Spade
                        There is such a thing as a rocky railway. Can you guess how it is laid?

                        Can you guess when it was, and how many kilometers from the front line?
                        Quote: Spade
                        As I understand it, again without arguments. Why do not possess. At least one argument.

                        the above is full of arguments, as is the lack of organization in the advantage of wheeled over tracked ones.

                        Quote: Spade
                        that you’ve never deployed a D-30 at an OP, because you consider this an easy task

                        Is hyacinth suitable?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Under its own power. For example, from Vladikavkaz to the tunnel more than 100 km, I'm not talking about the distance to Java

                        So they wrote that under their own power the guns in tow will not reach. And the tracked self-propelled guns have a cruising range of 50 km.
                        And about the fact that the equipment goes on the road not in a mess, but COLUMNY, you probably do not taste at all.
                      5. +1
                        2 February 2013 20: 17
                        Quote: Kars
                        Can you guess when it was, and how many kilometers from the front line?

                        You yourself will guess that "along the front line" does not mean that along the front line?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Is hyacinth suitable?

                        Yes, at least 82 mm mortar. Anyone who does this will not give out something like yours
                        Quote: Kars
                        With a big stretch, they have an advantage in expanding and folding in position over the MTLB CHEAP sheaf + howitzer.



                        Quote: Kars
                        So they wrote that under their own power the guns in tow will not reach. And the tracked self-propelled guns have a cruising range of 50 km.
                        And about the fact that the equipment goes on the road not in a mess, but COLUMNY, you probably do not taste at all.

                        Where did I write this?
                      6. 0
                        2 February 2013 22: 26
                        Quote: Spade
                        Guess yourself

                        Something with you guesses? The ways of delirium are inscrutable.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Yes, at least 82 mm mortar. Anyone who does this will not give out something like yours

                        What are you talking about? Can you recall the narrative for transfer to combat?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Where did I write this?

                        Reread what you carry.
      2. 0
        25 December 2017 10: 18
        Quote: Spade
        There is a niche - replacement of towed guns. Operational mobility is maintained, in general, the installation is more convenient to use.

        It looks like a self-propelled guns 125 mm. there, and on wheels.

        Shot from the movie TK Zvezda - Military Acceptance. Center for Closed Trials. The time is 9:05. Here is the link:
  3. avt
    +1
    2 February 2013 10: 13
    Quote: Chicot 1
    I am not against wheeled vehicles as weapons carriers. However, the base should be chosen very meticulously, taking into account many factors, among which, first of all, soil and climatic conditions should be taken into account ...

    I completely agree, you can add - the tracked platform will be more stable, no backups are needed laughing in short.
    1. 0
      2 February 2013 10: 46
      The problem is solved by hanging on the jacks. Or disabling suspension - a budget option.
  4. +3
    2 February 2013 10: 59
    122 mm art. Installation "Semser"
    1. +1
      2 February 2013 11: 04
      Has she already been brought to mind? And then I read that they complained about this miracle of Israeli military-technical thought. And even someone was planted.
      1. +2
        2 February 2013 11: 14
        Quote: Spade
        Has she already been brought to mind? And then I read that they complained about this miracle of Israeli military-technical thought. And even someone was planted.

        They brought it to mind, though of course they put the refuseniks. smile
        Semser (with Kaz. Semser - sword, saber) - 122-mm self-propelled artillery mount, developed by the Israeli company Soltam by order of the Ministry of Defense of Kazakhstan for the Kazakhstan army.
        Structurally, it is a 122-mm howitzer D-30 mounted on a turntable on the chassis of a KAMAZ-63502 truck. It is equipped with an NATO C4I standard automated fire control system and a loading system developed by Soltam systems as part of the ATMOS-155 2000-mm howitzer self-propelled gun [1]. From electronic equipment, GPS and GLONASS positioning systems and a computer for receiving data from a senior battery officer appeared. Ammunition is 80 rounds [2].
        The production was mastered in 2008 by JSC National Company Kazakhstan Engineering [3] at the Petropavlovsk Heavy Machine Building Plant (JSC PZTM) [4].
        The first experimental machine entered the troops in the summer of 2008 [5]. Subsequently, until June 2010, one division of the 122 mm Samser self-propelled howitzers was obtained [1].
        Designed: 2007-2008
        Years of production: 2008 -
        Features
        Barrel length, mm: 38 calibers
        Crew (calculation), people: 6
        Caliber, mm: 122 mm
        Recoil device: hydropneumatic
        Rate of fire
        rounds / min: 6
        Sighting range, m: 15300 m
        Maximum
        range, m: 22000 m (active-reactive projectile)
        1. +1
          2 February 2013 11: 19

          This is not a big plot.
          1. Akim
            0
            2 February 2013 11: 33
            marshes,
            "I was bitten for describing myself"5000 thousand kilometers "... But I am not a politician or a journalist - I can make a reservation. And the girl over there said in the report that reloading in the D-30 took 12 minutes. Like in German "Dora"
            1. 0
              2 February 2013 11: 38
              Quote: Akim
              “I was bitten for describing“ 5000 thousand kilometers. ”But I’m not a politician or a journalist - I can make a reservation. And the girl over there said in the report that reloading in the D-30 took 12 minutes. As in the German“ Dora ”.

              Well, the girl is far from the army. smile
              1. Akim
                0
                2 February 2013 11: 46
                marshes,
                So in reality, what kind of speed? Yes, D-30 can do 5-6 rpm. 1shot-12 sec. And if 1 shell in 2 seconds. This is the rate of fire of a ship’s gun!
                PS I have already seen above.
                1. +1
                  2 February 2013 11: 52

                  6 rounds per minute, there is an autoloader.
                  1. +1
                    2 February 2013 11: 56
                    This is not an automatic loader. This is mechanized messing. Especially the rate of fire does not increase, but it gives a big plus in accuracy - they are always sent with the same effort.
                    Well, the calculation is less strained.
                2. +1
                  2 February 2013 11: 52
                  The rate of fire is hardly particularly different. Maybe one per minute due to automatic recovery of the pickup after the shot
                  There are other advantages: higher accuracy, shorter opening times for new targets, the possibility of dispersed deployment at the OP, which will help withstand counter-battery combat
                  1. Akim
                    0
                    2 February 2013 11: 55
                    Lopatov,
                    You can’t argue with these. The caliber is really small.
                    1. +1
                      2 February 2013 12: 03
                      Quote: Akim
                      You can’t argue with these. The caliber is really small.

                      And what was left in the warehouses was delivered.
                      There is a UAV in the complex, a meteorological station, an automated fire control complex.
                    2. +1
                      2 February 2013 12: 13
                      Normal caliber. Just the consumption of shells is higher. For example: the target is a battery of towed guns in the trenches. 122 mm 240 rounds per target, 152 mm 180 sn / c
        2. +1
          2 February 2013 11: 22
          Quote: marshes
          They brought it to mind, though of course they put the refuseniks.

          This is yes, this is the right policy.

          A good thing, for your conditions, the very thing.
          1. Akim
            +1
            2 February 2013 11: 35
            Quote: Spade
            This is yes, this is the right policy.

            I agree. That's right, a couple of bureaucrats from Ukrspetsexport were detained in Kazakhstan.
            1. 0
              2 February 2013 11: 41
              Quote: Akim
              I agree. That's right, a couple of bureaucrats from Ukrspetsexport were detained in Kazakhstan.

              And here we are "racking our brains" on what business?
              Btr-4, repair of the crashed AN-72 in Kiev or is it something else?
              1. Akim
                0
                2 February 2013 11: 52
                Quote: marshes
                looking for something?

                For 200 thousand dollars - rollback on BTR-4.
                1. 0
                  2 February 2013 11: 58
                  Quote: Akim
                  For 200 thousand dollars - rollback on BTR-4.

                  So this is by our standards a mere penny, 3 bedroom apartment. smile Another thing is 10-15% of the order value. smile There is nothing else.
                  1. Akim
                    +1
                    2 February 2013 12: 18
                    Quote: marshes
                    So this is by our standards sheer pennies, 3 bedroom apartment

                    They paid just for lobbying. And how much more money was given, we won’t know ...
                    1. 0
                      2 February 2013 12: 25
                      Quote: Akim
                      we will not know ...

                      Yes, we will find out if they are not hushed up through diplomatic channels.
            2. +1
              2 February 2013 11: 44
              And them now? Only Jews from the "Kazakh torture chambers" Israel scooped out, so immediately the Ukrainians took their place? It's cool there.
              1. +2
                2 February 2013 11: 48
                Quote: Spade
                Cool there with them.

                There are places where it is better not to meddle, especially if it is related to defense, there they solder the article about treason to the motherland and will not seem enough.
                1. +1
                  2 February 2013 12: 01
                  You do it right. And here we have freaks who tried to put substandard body armor in the troops, give children terms. For theft of a box of alcohol from the store give more.
                  1. 0
                    2 February 2013 12: 06
                    Quote: Spade

                    You do it right. And here we have freaks who tried to put substandard body armor in the troops, give children terms. For theft of a box of alcohol from the store give more.

                    We have the most "terrible service" is the Financial Police. They can jail all in a row whether it is army or security officers. smile
                    1. 0
                      2 February 2013 12: 16
                      Kazakh "bloody gebnya"? Do human rights activists swear, talk about political persecution?
                      1. +1
                        2 February 2013 12: 22
                        Quote: Spade
                        Kazakh "bloody gebnya"? Do human rights activists swear, talk about political persecution?

                        As soon as they take another assailor for the ass, they yell that the year 37 has come ... smile Yesterday, on the news, they talked about the financial floor, like they opened four cases a day last year, according to the number of open cases. smile A landing ministers, akims (governors), police.
                      2. +1
                        2 February 2013 12: 28
                        So they work well, well done.
                        The cries of human rights defenders are an objective indicator of the quality of activity of such structures
                      3. +3
                        2 February 2013 12: 33
                        Quote: Spade

                        So they work well, well done.
                        The cries of human rights defenders are an objective indicator of the quality of activity of such structures

                        Human rights activists did not go down much, just the Finnish men began to study their financial flows.
                        Here's an example.
                        ASTANA, Jan 9 - IA News-Kazakhstan. The Adil Soz International Fund for the Protection of Freedom of Speech, due to lack of funding, has stopped monitoring violations of freedom of speech in Kazakhstan, fund president Tamara Kaleeva said on Wednesday.

                        “Dear colleagues and partners, I inform you that, due to the lack of funding, the Adil Soz International Fund for the Protection of Freedom of Speech has been forced to stop monitoring violations of freedom of speech and, in particular, the Hot News mailing list. We hope that this measure is temporary, ”the letter says.

                        The Adil Soz International Foundation for the Protection of Freedom of Speech was registered as a legal entity with the status of a public foundation on April 12, 1999.
                        The general goal of the Adil Soz International Foundation for the Protection of Freedom of Speech is the establishment of an open civil society through the establishment in the daily life of the country of free, objective and progressive journalism.

                        Adil Soz projects are supported by the Open Society Foundation, the Soros Foundation-Kazakhstan, the American Agency for International Development (USAID), the Delegation of the European Commission to Kazakhstan, the Kyrgyz Republic and Tajikistan, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), the United Nations Cluster Office nations for education, science and culture (UNESCO) in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, the non-governmental organization MLDI “Media Legal Defense Initiative” (Great Britain), the International Association for the Protection of Freedom of Speech IFEX, the Government of the Kingdom of Norway, the Finnish Media, Information and VIKES development.
                  2. Akim
                    +3
                    2 February 2013 13: 56
                    Quote: Spade
                    1
                    they do you right.

  5. Insurgent
    +1
    2 February 2013 12: 21
    but what about A-222 “The shore was unremarkable
    1. +1
      2 February 2013 12: 24
      This thing is somewhat from another opera. It does not apply to field artillery.
  6. 0
    2 February 2013 13: 06
    You should not consider self-propelled guns as a separate type of artillery, only as a replacement for towed howitzers and no more!
  7. +1
    2 February 2013 15: 45
    In the steppes of Kazakhstan and Mongolia, wheels are lovely, but not in between seasons. Everything in clay gets stuck.
  8. +2
    2 February 2013 19: 44
    As for deliveries to other countries, very little is known about them.


    Self-propelled gun howitzer vz.77 Dana
    Quite a lot. Here and Libya "pleased".


  9. 32363
    +2
    2 February 2013 20: 03
    In the early 90s, when he was still living in Kazakhstan, they brought several Dan self-propelled guns to scrap metal, they were absolutely brand new ... I managed to twist with one sight.
  10. zhvn
    +2
    2 February 2013 20: 07
    And what kind of cover is needed for a division of such weapons? It seems to me, the partisans have a good living.

    My late grandfather served in artillery. He told me that I had to go hand to hand.
  11. cool.ya-nikola
    0
    2 February 2013 20: 07
    I would like to know the opinion of everyone who is in the subject of the South Korean ACS "Thunder" ("Thunder"). Is it really as good as advertised? Please share who knows! Details can be found on the same website:
    http://topwar.ru/4105-korejskaya-sau-k9-thunder-populyarnaya-klassika.html
    1. 0
      2 February 2013 20: 28
      Almost level. Somewhat does not correspond to modern samples - modular charges are thrown manually.
  12. zhvn
    +2
    2 February 2013 20: 09
    My late grandfather served in artillery. He told me that I had to go hand to hand.
    1. +1
      2 February 2013 20: 30
      The artillery is different. For example, the anti-tankers often did not manage to survive until melee.
      1. bask
        +1
        2 February 2013 20: 37
        Quote: Spade

        The artillery is different. For example, anti-tankers often didn’t get to melee

        We need to discuss the future, artillery. And the future .. In the use of satellite systems, I hope, Glonas. And the installation of all towed artillery on a wheelbase .. A, classic, self-propelled guns on the main chassis will remain priority on the battlefield.
  13. zhvn
    +1
    2 February 2013 23: 25
    So the Swedes made a car, in my opinion - the best wheeled self-propelled guns for today.
  14. Akim
    0
    3 February 2013 12: 28
    Not about the wheels. I read somewhere about the Ukrainian modernization of the Akatsia with a new weapon. Who knows about this?
  15. 0
    3 February 2013 13: 48
    Well, for the Russians, they are more worried about their army.
    Leave the towed receiver for draftees, jackets and partisans. I don’t know if there is a weapon that the MI-8 can carry on external sling.
    Wheeled for brigades (divisions), "light", rapid response, deployment.
    On tracked, for "heavy" divisions (brigades).
    Of course, you need to unify, that is, the ability to install a combat module that is on wheels or tracks, but people should be professionals, contract soldiers.
    Yes, do not "hesitate" to send to study in NATO countries, although I understand how much noise will be smile , to China, Israel, South Korea. Military science does not stand in one place. By the way, I noticed the interest of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in the exercises held in our Republic in the Airmobile Parts, our cadets also studied in NATO countries, although most of them in Kazakhstan and RF
  16. Akim
    0
    4 February 2013 11: 02
    kerekypnoyaoyo
  17. SOZIN2013
    0
    23 February 2013 21: 44
    Guys, what about Coalition CB ??? closed the project or not, if not, will it have 2 trunks ??? And then I'm confused, some say there will be 2 trunks, others say 1 !!! And for how many kilometers it will hit, I heard at the level of Msta C, but I myself hope for more !!! Tell me who knows!)

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

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