Military Review

Old Cossack ancestors

182
Old Cossack ancestors



While in Moscow, Napoleon interrogated a captive, wounded Cossack and asked him: how could the war against Russia started if the Cossack units were in the ranks of the French army. Donets grinned: “Then, the French emperor would have been a Chinese emperor long ago.”

“A happy commander who has Cossacks. If I had an army from some Cossacks, I would subdue all of Europe. ”
“We need to give justice to the Cossacks, - it was they who brought the success of Russia in this campaign. Cossacks are the best light troops among all existing ones. If I had them in my army, I would have passed with them the whole world. ”
Napoleon


“The name of the Cossack for the French thundered with horror, and after the Parisian acquaintance they opened for them heroes from ancient myths. They were as pure as children and as great as gods. ”
Stendhal


1. You can speak last, but you must always shoot first
2. Not the Cossack who overcame, but the one that twisted
3. Do not trust a sword, a horse, and a wife
4. As war - so brothers, how the world - so sons of bitches
5. Pyma, sheepskin coat and malahai - the most reliable and reliable weapon siberian cossack
6. Cossacks are not crayfish - do not move backwards
Cossack sayings

Cossacks - a unique phenomenon on the planet Earth, which arose in the process of natural historical selection, established on the basis of military fraternity and the Orthodox faith. The unique military glory of the Cossacks caused many states to create their own Cossack troops: hussars appeared in Hungary, dragoons in France, and Cossack hundreds in England and Prussia. The practice of their combat use led to the inevitable conclusion: Cossack not first-class dzhigitovka, not masterly possession of cold and firearms, not even the ability to fight and a rare fearlessness, but the "special state of mind" inherent in the best representatives of the Eastern Slavs. They amazed with their fearless dzhigitovka, they admired with the dexterity and beauty of their system, they struck the intricate game of enticing cavalry lava. They, according to all the foreigners who saw them in peacetime, were the only inimitable and incomparable cavalry in the world. They were natural horsemen. The Hessian German, the heroic partisan of the Patriotic War, Adjutant-General Wintzingerode wrote in 1812 year: “I’m accustomed to always consider the Hungarian cavalry as the first in the world, I must give the Cossacks an advantage over the Hungarian hussars”.

The beauty of their regimental life, with their coming songs from the depths of the centuries, with a dashing dance, with a close and friendly army comradeship, captivated. To serve the Cossacks, to serve with the Cossacks was the dream of all truly military people. Cossacks themselves have become so. They created and tempered in the battles on the border itself история. Yes, in the XIX century, the Cossacks to everyone who saw them seemed “natural horsemen”. But we remember the formidable Zaporozhye infantry and the traditions of the fearless Kuban elas who adopted it. And when the Cossacks in their light strugus or "seagulls" went out to sea, the coast of sultan Turkey and Shah's Iran fluttered. And rarely galleys and "hard labor" could resist the Cossack flotilla, bringing the matter to a cruel and merciless boarding battle. Well, and when the Cossacks, surrounded by many times superior enemy, were under siege, they showed themselves to be true masters of the mine war. The art of foreign siege masters was broken about their Cossack tricks. Excellent descriptions of the defense of the city of Azov were preserved, which nine thousand Cossacks managed to capture almost without loss, and then hold on for several years, fighting off the 250-thousandth Turkish army. They were not only “natural horsemen”, they were natural warriors, and they managed in military affairs everything they took on.

The last in all of Russia, the Cossacks retained the old knightly principle of "service for the land" and were going to serve at their own expense "horse and arms." This is the last Russian knights. Silently, in the greatest consciousness of their duty to the Motherland, the Cossacks bore all their burdens and deprivations for their service and were proud of their Cossack name. They had a natural sense of duty.

Many Russian historians explain, albeit without proof, the origin of the Cossacks from walking, homeless people and runaway criminals from different regions of the Moscow and Polish-Lithuanian states, "who were searching for wild will and booty in the empty uluses of the horde of Batu." At the same time, the very name "Cossack" will be of relatively recent origin, which appeared in Russia not earlier than the XV century. The name was given to these fugitives by other nations, as the name is called, identifying with the concept of "free, beyond the control of anyone, free." Indeed, for a long time it was customary to think that the Cossacks were Russian peasants who had fled to the Don from the horrors of the oprichnina. But you can not withdraw the Cossacks only from the serfs. Different classes ran away, not contented and not reconciled with the authorities. They fled to war, to Cossack democracy, artisans, peasants, noblemen, warriors, robbers, thieves, all who waited for Russia in Russia, all who are tired of living in peace, all who had a riot in their blood fled. It was they who replenished the Cossacks. This is true, a significant part of the Cossacks was formed in this way. But the fugitives, coming to the Don, did not fall into the desert. That is why the famous proverb was born: "There is no issue from the Don." Where did the Cossacks come from?

Kaisaki, Saklabs, Wanderers, Cherkasy, Black hoods

In the 1st millennium of our era, the Black Sea steppe became, as it were, a gateway from Asia to Europe. None of the people, led by the waves of the great migration, did not linger here for a long time. In this epoch of the “Great Migration of Peoples” in the steppes, as in a kaleidoscope, the dominant nomadic tribes changed, creating tribal nomadic states, the kaganates. These nomadic states were ruled by powerful kings - kagans (khaans). At the same time, most often, the large borders of the Kuban, Dnieper, Don, Volga, Ural and others were the natural boundaries of the habitats of nomadic tribes, respectively, and kaganates. The borders of states and tribes always demanded special attention. To live in the frontier was always difficult and dangerous, especially in the era of medieval steppe lawlessness. For frontier, serf, postal and postal services, maintenance, defense, fords, ferries and dredges, collection of duties and navigation control, the steppe kagans from the ancient times inhabited the banks of border rivers with semi-settled militant North Caucasian tribes of Circassians (Cherkas) and Kasogs (or more precisely Kaisaks). Iranian-speaking peoples called Saki Scythians and Sarmatians. Kaisaks were called the royal, chief Sakas, who made up all sorts of guard detachments, as well as the bodyguards of the khans and their nobles. These military inhabitants of the lower reaches of the rivers, many of the then chronicles are also called wanderers. About the Cossacks (Kaisaks) living in the Azov region, along the banks of the Don and Kuban, is mentioned in the fourth-century Arab and Byzantine chronicles. er as a warlike people practicing Christianity. Thus, the Cossacks became Christians almost five hundred years before the baptism of Russia by Prince Vladimir. From different chronicles it is clear that the Cossacks originated in Russia no later than the 5th century AD. and, before the epoch of the rise and flourishing of Kievan Rus (Russian Kaganate), the Cossacks long-time ancestors were often called rodents, and later also black hoods or Cherkasy.

Wanderers - a tribe of old Cossack ancestors who lived on the Don and the Dnieper in the first half of the Middle Ages. The Arabs also called them Sakaliba, the white people, mainly of Slavic blood (more precisely, this Persian word sounds saklaby - coastal Saki). So, in 737, the Arabian commander Marwan passed with the troops all the indigenous Khazars and between Don and Volga behind Perevoloka met the semi-nomadic horse breeders of Sakalib. The Arabs took their horse herds and took with them up to 20 thousands of families who were moved to the eastern border of Kakheti. The presence of such a mass of horse breeders in this place is far from accident. Perevoloka is a special place in the history of both the Cossacks and the steppes as a whole. In this place, the Volga comes closest to the Don, and at all times there was a portage there. Of course, no one dragged tens of kilometers of merchant ships. The transshipment of goods from the Volga basin to the Don basin and back was carried out by horse-drawn and pack transport, which required a large number of horses, horse breeders and guards. All these functions were performed by vagrants, in the Persian Saklabs - coastal Sakas. Perevoloka during the period of navigation gave a stable and good income. The steppe kagans greatly valued this place and sought to give it to the closest members of their clan. Most often, these were their mothers (widowed queens) and beloved wives, mothers of the heirs to the throne. From early spring to late autumn, for personal control Perevoloki, tsarina kept their tents on the banks of the picturesque and full-flowing river then, the right tributary of the Volga. And it is not by chance that this river has been called the Queen for centuries, and the fortress at its mouth, founded already in the new history as governor Zasekin, was named Tsaritsyn. The famous legend about the mother and wife of Batu, who owned Perevoloka, is only the visible and audible part of this centuries-old phenomenon of the steppe civilization. Many lords dreamed of making Perevoloku navigable, several unsuccessful attempts were made to build a canal. But it was only in the era of Joseph Stalin, whose all-Russian glory also began with the battles against whites in the Tsaritsinsky shift, did this project succeed.

And in those days, rodents were filled up with newcomers, fugitives and expelled people from the surrounding tribes and peoples. Wanderers taught aliens to serve, keep fords, portages and borders, make raids, taught their relations with the nomadic world, and taught them to fight. The rodents themselves gradually disappeared into the newcomers and created a new Slavic Cossack nation! Interestingly, the prowlers in their trousers wore stripes in the form of a leather band. This custom has been preserved among the Cossacks and subsequently, in different Cossack Forces, the color of the lanterns became different (the Don people - red, the Urals - blue, the Transbaikalians - yellow).

Later, around 860, the Byzantine emperor Michael III ordered that the Slavonic alphabet be compiled and the liturgical books translated into Slavic. According to biographical data, Kirill (Konstantin Philosopher, 827 – 869) went to Khazaria and, preaching Christianity there, studied the local Slavic dialects. Obviously, as a result of the preaching of this envoy of Byzantium, among the Azov Khazarites, the New Faith finally triumphed. At his request, the Khazar Khakan (Kagan) allowed the episcopal chair to be restored in Kaisak Land on Taman.



Figure.1,2 Legendary Wanderer and Black Cowl

In 965, the great Russian warrior, the prince (Kagan of the Rus) Svyatoslav Igorevich, together with the Pechenegs and other steppe peoples, defeated the Khazars and conquered the Black Sea steppe. I act in the best traditions of the steppe kagans, part of the Alans and Cherkas, Kasogs or Kaisaks, to protect Kiev from the raids of the steppe people from the south, moved from the North Caucasus to the Dnieper and in Porosye. This decision was promoted by an unexpected and treacherous raid on Kiev by his former Pecheneg allies in 969. On the Dnieper, along with other Turkic-Scythian tribes who had previously arrived and subsequently arrived, mingling with rodents and the local Slavic population, assimilating their language, the settlers formed a special nation, giving it their Cherkasy ethnic name. Until today, this region of Ukraine is called Cherkasy, and the regional center is Cherkasy. Approximately by the middle of the XII century, according to the chronicles around 1146, on the basis of these Cherkas from different steppe peoples, an alliance gradually formed, called the black hoods. Later, a special Slavic people formed from these Cherkas (black hoods) and then the Dnieper Cossacks were formed from Kiev to Zaporozhye.

On the Don was a little different. After the defeat of the Khazars, Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich divided her possessions with the Pechenegs allies. On the basis of the Black Sea Khazar port city of Tamatarkha (in Russian Tmutarakan, and now Taman), he formed the Tmutarakan principality on the Taman Peninsula and in the Azov region. The connection of this enclave with the metropolis was carried out by the Don, which was controlled by Don rodents. The former Khazar fortress city Sarkel (in Russian, Belaya Vezha) became the stronghold of this medieval transit along the Don. The Tmutarakan principality and fordsters became the ancestors of the Don Cossacks, which, in turn, later became the ancestors of other Cossack Troops (Siberian, Yaik, or Ural, Greben, Volga, Terek, Nekrasov). The exception - the Kuban Black Sea - are the descendants of the Cossacks.



Ris.3,4 Russian prince (kagan of Rus) Svyatoslav Igorevich before the battle and at the negotiations with the Byzantine emperor John Tzimischius on the Danube

The great warrior Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich, for his services to the Cossacks, can rightly be considered one of the founding fathers of this phenomenon. He loved the look and boldness of the North Caucasian Cherkas and Kaisaks. Brought up by the Vikings from early childhood, nevertheless, under the influence of Cherkas and Kaisaks, he willingly changed his appearance and most of the later Byzantine chronicles describe him with a long mustache, shaved head and with a black-saddle.

In the middle of the 11 century, the Black Sea steppes captured the Polovtsy. These were the Turkic-speaking Europeans, blond and light-eyed. Their religion was the veneration of Tengri - the Blue Sky. Their arrival was cruel and merciless. They defeated the principality of Tmutarakan, fragmented and torn by princely feuds Russia could not help their enclave. Some residents of the steppe part of the Russian state submitted to the Polovtsy. The other part went to the forest-steppe and continued to fight against them together with Russia, adding to its federates, black hoods, which received the name of the Rus in appearance - black felt hats. In the Moscow chronicle of the XV century, a provision dated 1152 is given: “All Black Klobuks are called Cherkasy.” The continuity of Cherkas and Cossacks is obvious: both capitals of the Don Cossacks have this name, Cherkassk and Novocherkassk, and the Cossack region of Ukraine to this day is called Cherkasy.



Fig. 5,6 Polovtsi and Black hoods XII - XIII centuries

In the Russian chronicles there are also the names of smaller peoples and tribes, known under the common nickname of the black hoods, or Cherkasy, which became part of the Cossack nationality. These are bonds, Torks and Berendeis with the cities of Thor, Torchesk, Berendichev, Berendeevo, Izeslavs with the town of Izeslavts, toropes and sakas with the cities of Voin and Sakon, Kovui in Severshchina, bologovtsy in the Southern Bug, wanderers on the Don and Azov, Chigi (jigi) with the city of Chigirin and sary and azman on the Donets.

Later, another great Russian warrior and prince Vladimir Monomakh managed to consolidate the Russian principalities, brutally suppressed the princely and boyar civil strife and, together with black hoods, inflicted a series of cruel and decisive defeats to the Polovtsy. After that, the Polovtsy were for a long time compelled to peace and alliance with Russia.

In the 13 century, Mongols appeared in the Black Sea steppes. In 1222, around 30, thousands of Mongols left the Transcaucasus in the Black Sea steppe. This was a reconnaissance detachment of the Mongol horde sent by Genghis Khan under the command of the legendary commanders Subadei and Chebe. They defeated the Alans in the North Caucasus, and then attacked the Polovtsy and began to crowd them over the Dnieper, seizing the entire Don steppe. Polovtsian khans Kotyan and Yuri Konchakovich asked for help from their relatives and allies, the Russian princes. Three princes - Galician, Kiev and Chernigov - came with their troops to help the allies Polovtsy. But in 1223, on the Kalka River (a tributary of the Kalmius River), the combined Russian-Polovtsian army was utterly defeated by the Mongols, Cherkasy and roved.


Fig. 7 The tragic ending of the Battle of Kalka

About this episode should be said separately. Wanderers, tired of endless feuds and oppression of the Russian and Polovtsian princes, perceived the Mongols as allies in the fight against arbitrariness and Polovtsian oppression. The Mongols knew how to persuade and recruit warlike, but offended tribes. Caucasian Cherkasy and Don Brodniki formed the basis of the new, third Mongolian army, provided Subadei with tactical and strategic intelligence, and before the battle took an active part in embassies and negotiations. After the battle, the ataman of the Ploskinya balkins, kissing the cross, persuaded the remnants of the Russian army to surrender. Surrender for the purpose of subsequent redemption is quite common for that time. But the Mongols treated with contempt the commanders who had surrendered to captivity and the captured Russian princes were placed under the “dastarkhan” of boards on which a feast was organized by the victors.

After the bloody battles, the Mongols went back to the Zavolzhskaya steppe, and for some time nothing was heard about them. The Mongol leader, Genghis Khan, soon died, dividing the empire he created between his descendants. The grandson of Genghis Khan Batu led the western limits of the Mongolian possessions (Ulus Juchi) and, fulfilling the precepts of his grandfather, had to expand them as far as possible to the west. By order of the Kurultay 1235 of the year, held in the capital of the Mongolian Empire, Karokorum, the all-Mongolian Western campaign to the coast of the Atlantic Ocean (campaign to the “last sea”) was appointed to 1237. Dozens of tumens from the entire Mongolian empire were mobilized on the campaign, with 14 Tsarevich-Chingizids, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Genghis Khan taking the lead. Khan Batu was appointed commander-in-chief; a veteran of the Western campaigns Subeyi was in charge of the training. The whole 1236 year went on for training and training. In the spring of 1237, the Mongols and the nomadic tribes under their control concentrated on the territory of the Bashkirs who were recently subdued by Subedei and again attacked the Polovtsi, now because of the Volga. In the area between the Volga and the Don, the Polovtsi were defeated, their commander Bachman was killed. Khan Kotyan led the Polovtsian troops to the Don and temporarily stopped the further advance of the Mongols along this river. The second large detachment of Mongols, led by Batu, defeated Volga Bulgaria, in the winter of 1237 / 38, invaded the territory of the northern Russian principalities, destroyed many cities, and in the summer of 1238, left the Russian territory to the steppe, to the rear of the Polovtsy. In a panic, part of the Polovtsian troops rolled back to the foothills of the Caucasus, some went to Hungary, many soldiers died. Polovtsian bones covered the entire Black Sea steppe. In 1239 - 1240, smashing the southern Russian principalities, Batu sent his tumens to Western Europe. The warriors from southern Russia, including the Cherkasy and vagabonds, readily took part in the campaign of the Mongolian troops against their ancient enemies, the “Ugrians” and “Lyakhs”. Numerous European chronicles and chronicles of that time draw a completely non-Mongolian image and language of the Tatar-Mongolian troops who came to Europe.




Fig. 8,9,10 Commander Subedey and participants in a grand battle under the Polish city of Legnitz, a European knight and "Mongol" horsemen

Until 1242, Batu led the all-Mongolian Western campaign, as a result of which the western part of the Polovtsian steppe, Volga Bulgaria, Russia were conquered, all countries to the Adriatic and Baltic were conquered and conquered: Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Croatia, Dalmatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Bulgaria and dr. The defeat of the European armies was complete. During this time, the Mongols did not lose a single battle. The Mongolian army reached Central Europe. Frederick II, the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, tried to organize resistance, however, when Batu demanded obedience, he answered that he could become a falconry of the khan. The salvation of Europe came from no waiting. In the summer of 1241, the great Mongol khan Ogedei fell ill and withdrew his children and grandchildren from the front, and in December 1241 died. The first all-Mongol turmoil was brewing. The numerous Tsarevich-Chingizids, in anticipation of a fight for power, one after another left the front with their troops and returned to their ulus. Batu did not have the strength to attack alone with only his ulus and completed his campaign against the West in 1242. The troops retreated to the Lower Volga, the city of Sarai-Batu was founded, which became the new center of the Juchi Ulus. After these battles, the Kuban, the Don and the Black Sea steppes were incorporated by the Mongols into their state, the surviving Polovtsy and Slavs became their subjects. Gradually the nomads who came along with the Mongols, called “Tatars,” merged with the local Slavic-Polovtsian population, and the resulting state was called the Golden Horde.



Fig. 11,12 Ulus Juchi (Golden Horde) and Batu Khan

With its new revival, the Cossacks owed to the custom of the tamga, which was available during the time of the Golden Horde, live tribute, that is, tribute by people whom the Russian principalities supplied to the horde to replenish the Mongolian troops. The Mongol khans who ruled in the Polovtsian steppes loved to raid the coastal Byzantine and Persian lands, i.e. to smuggle over the sea "for zipuns." For these purposes, the Russian warriors were especially suitable, since the rule of the Varyags in Russia, they had successfully mastered the tactics of the Marines (in Russian, “rook's ratification”). And the Cossacks themselves turned into a universal mobile army, capable of fighting on land both on foot and in equestrian ranks, making river and sea raids, and also conducting boarding battleships in boats and struga. Being foreigners not connected to the clan, kinship and ethnically with the local steppe population, they were also valued by Mongolian nobles for personal loyalty, loyalty and diligence in the service, including in terms of police and punitive functions, tax evasion and debt relief. By the way, there was a counter process. Since the “rook rati” was constantly lacking, the khans requested replenishment. Russian princes and boyars went for it, but in return for their service, they requested detachments of dashing foreign steppe horsemen, no less faithful and zealous in service in a foreign land. These Russified princely and boyar military servants gave root to many noble and boyar families. L.N. Gumilev and other Russian historians constantly paid attention to the Turkic origin of the majority of Russian noble families.



Fig. 13,14 Campaign “for zipuns”

In the first century of the existence of the Golden Horde, the Mongols were loyal to the preservation of subjects of their religions, including the people who were part of their military units. There was even a Saraisko-Podonsky bishopric formed in 1261. Thus, those driven from Russia retained their originality and self-identification. Many ancient Cossack legends begin with the words: “From the blood of the Sarmatian, clan-tribe of Cherkasy, allow the Cossack brothers to say a word not about the death of Vidar the Great and the campaigns of his son Kudi Yarogo, the glorious thousandaire and the favorite of Batu. And about the affairs of our fathers and grandfathers, who shed blood for Mother Russia and laid down their heads for the tsar-father ... ”. Subdued by the Tatars, so to speak, stripped away, the Cossacks, caressed and showered with the mercies of the khans, began to constitute a dashing invincible cavalry in the advanced detachments of the conquering hordes of the Tatars - the so-called horsemen (from the name of the Cherkasy tribes of chigov and the Goths), as well as detachments of bodyguards of the khans and them. Russian historians of the XVIII century. Tatishchev and Boltin write that Tatar Baskaks, sent to Russia by the Khans to collect tribute, always had with them troops of these Cossacks. At this time, the Cossacks formed as a purely military estate in the Horde khans and their nobles. “God feeds us the good fellows: like birds we do not sow and do not collect bread in the breadbaskets, but always full. And if anyone plows the land, mercilessly whip them with rods. ” In this way, the Cossacks jealously made sure that nothing distracted them from the main occupation - military service. At the beginning of the Mongol-Tatar domination, when internecine wars were forbidden inside the Golden Horde on pain of death, the nomadic population of the Black Sea region increased many times over. In gratitude for the service of the Horde, the Cossacks owned the lands of the entire Black Sea strip with Kyivshchina inclusive. This fact is reflected in numerous medieval maps of Eastern Europe. The epoch from 1240 to 1360 was the best for the life of the Cossack People under the auspices of the Mongolian Power. Noble Horde Cossacks of that time looked very formidable and impressive and all had the sign of belonging to the social leaders of the Cossack society. This chub is an oseledets, based on the custom long accepted from Cherkasov in the Caucasus. Foreigners wrote about them: “They carry the longest mustache and the darkness of the weapon with them. On the belt in a leather handbag, made and embroidered by the hands of his wife, they always have a razor and razor with a wheelbarrow. She shaves each other's head, leaving a long tuft of hair in the form of a pigtail on its crown. ”




Fig. 15,16,17 Horde Cossacks

At the beginning of the 14 century, the Mongolian empire, created by the great Genghis Khan, began to disintegrate, in its western ulus, the Golden Horde, dynastic unrest (jam) occurred from time to time, in which Cossack detachments subject to individual Mongol khans participated. Under Khan Uzbek, Islam became the state religion in the Horde, and in subsequent dynastic distempers it became aggravated and the religious factor also became actively present. The adoption of one state religion in a multi-confessional state certainly accelerated its self-destruction and disintegration. The Cossacks also participated in the distemper of the Horde temnik Mamai, including on the side of the Russian princes. It is known that in the 1380 year, the Cossacks presented Dmitry Donskoy with the icon of the Don Mother of God and participated against Mamaia in the Kulikovo battle. The troops who died in the troubles of the Khans often became abandoned, "free." It was then, in the 1340-60 years, a new type of Cossack appeared in the Russian frontier, who was not in the service and who lived mainly raids on the nomadic hordes surrounding them and neighboring peoples or robbing merchant caravans. They were called “thieves” Cossacks. Especially many of these “thieves'” patrols were on the Don and the Volga, which were the most important waterways and the main trade routes connecting the Russian lands with the steppe. At that time, there was no sharp separation between Cossacks, servicemen and volunteers, often free men were hired for service, and servicemen, on occasion, robbed caravans. After the final collapse of the unified Mongolian state, the Cossacks who remained and settled on its territory retained the military organization, but at the same time found themselves in complete independence both from the fragments of the former empire and from the Muscovy kingdom that appeared in Russia. The runaway peasants only replenished, but were not the root of the rise of troops. The Cossacks themselves always considered themselves to be a separate people and did not recognize themselves as fleeing men. They said: “we are not Russians, we are Cossacks”. These opinions are clearly reflected in fiction (for example, in Sholokhov). Historians of the Cossacks, give detailed excerpts from the chronicles of the XVI-XVIII centuries. describing conflicts between Cossacks and alien peasants, whom the Cossacks refused to recognize as equal to themselves.

In the XV century, the role of the Cossacks in the border areas increases dramatically due to the incessant raids of nomadic tribes. In the 1482 year, after the final collapse of the Golden Horde, the Crimean, Nogai, Kazan, Kazakh, Astrakhan and Siberian Khanates emerged. They were in constant hostility between themselves, as well as with Lithuania and with the Moscow state and did not want to recognize the power and authority of the Moscow prince. Since that time, a new, three-century period of Eastern European history begins - the period of the struggle for the Horde inheritance. At that time, few could have imagined that the state-of-the-art, although dynamically developing, Moscow principality would ultimately prove to be the winner in this titanic struggle. But already less than a century after the collapse of the Horde, with Tsar Ivan IV the Terrible, Moscow will unite around itself all the Russian principalities and conquer part of the Horde. At the end of the XVIII century. under Catherine II, the entire territory of the Golden Horde would be under Moscow authority. Having defeated the Crimea and Lithuania, the victorious grandees of the Queen-German put a fat and final point in the centuries-old dispute over the Horde inheritance. Moreover, in the middle of the 20th century, under Joseph Stalin, for a short time the Soviet people would create a protectorate over almost the entire territory of the Great Mongolian Empire, created in the 13th century. the work and genius of the Great Genghis Khan, including China. But it will be later.


Fig. 18 Disintegration of the Golden Horde

And in all this postordyn history the Cossacks took the most lively and active part. Moreover, the great Russian writer Leo Tolstoy believed that "the whole history of Russia was made by the Cossacks." And although this statement is certainly an exaggeration, but, taking a close look at the history of the Russian state, it can be stated that all significant military and political events in Russia did not go without the active participation of the Cossacks.

http://donskoykazak.narod.ru/Ludov3.html
http://passion-don.org/history-1/chapter-1.html
http://www.studfiles.ru/dir/cat7/subj258/file12332/view126531.html
http://go.mail.ru/search?q=%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B9-%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8&where=any&num=10&rch=e&sf=0 http://oldrushistory.ru/library/Sergey-Alekseev_Slavyanskaya-Evropa-V-VIII-vekov/
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Articles from this series:
Siberian Cossack Epic
Old Cossack ancestors
Cossacks and the annexation of Turkestan
Education Volga and Yaitsky Cossack Troops
Cossacks in Time of Troubles
Seniority (education) and the formation of the Don Cossack troops in the Moscow service
Azov seat and the transition of the Don troops in the Moscow service
Formation of the Dnieper and Zaporizhia troops and their service to the Polish-Lithuanian state
The transfer of the Cossack army hetman to the Moscow service
Treason of Mazepa and the pogrom of Cossack liberties by Tsar Peter
The uprising of Pugachev and the elimination of the Dnieper Cossacks by Empress Catherine
Cossacks in World War 1812 of the year. Part I, pre-war
Cossacks in World War 1812 of the year. Part II, the invasion and expulsion of Napoleon
Cossacks in World War 1812 of the year. Part III, foreign campaign
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  1. Fox
    Fox 20 December 2012 09: 50
    +9
    started for health, finished for peace ... what Mongols? a cocktail of everything that has been read and understood ... in short, delirium.
    1. klimpopov
      klimpopov 20 December 2012 09: 52
      +3
      Yes, I was also puzzled by what was written ...
    2. Ross
      Ross 20 December 2012 11: 18
      +1
      Fox,
      Yes, the author mixed. Not the Mongols came to Russia, but the Mughals (Great). The Mongols appeared in the 19 century. White Turkic-speaking tribes related to Slavs and Cossacks. Therefore, they allied with the Cossacks.
      1. ikrut
        ikrut 20 December 2012 18: 06
        +12
        "Mughal in modern times, the people in the north of Afghanistan. 20 thousand people (1992). Descendants of the 13th-century Mongol conquerors mixed with the local population. The language of the Mongolian group. Believers are Sunni Muslims.
        Mughal Empire - the largest power in India and Afghanistan. It was formed after the collapse of the Delhi Sultanate in the 16th century. Ruled by the Mughal dynasty. The capitals are Agra and Delhi. In the 17th century. included most of India. In the 18th century. split into a number of states, which in the 18-19 centuries. were captured by the British. "(c)
        No "Mughals" came to Russia in the 13th century. They simply weren't there then.
        "The word" Mogul "is of Greek origin, and means" Great. "This word the Greeks called our ancestors - the Slavs. It has nothing to do with the name of any people (NV Levashov" Visible and invisible genocide ")." (from)
        The Kipchaks (the ancestors of the Kazakhs) and the Volga Bulgars (the ancestors of the Kazan Tatars) came from Batu to Russia. The majority of this army were Slavic tribes. Including those "Cossacks" about which the author writes.
        In fact, it was a war for the redistribution of influence in the Slavic world. During the existence of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" not a single document in the Tatar or Mongolian language has survived. But on the other hand, there are many documents of this time in Russian.
        Article "+" for an interesting presentation of the history of the Cossacks.
        1. marshes
          marshes 20 December 2012 18: 17
          +4
          Quote: ikrut
          ikrut

          Mughals are the ancestors of the Elder Zhuz, among the Kazakhs. There was such a state MOGULISTAN.
          Mogulistan (in other words: Mogolistan, Mogul ulus, Dzhet Ulus, Mamlakat-i Mogolistan) is a state that was formed in the middle of the XIV century in the territory of Southeast Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan (East Turkestan) as a result of the collapse of the Chagatai ulus.
          Political history of Mogulistan in the second half of the 575th century little known, the sources do not have reliable information about events in the northern regions, in Semirechye and on the Tien Shan. The most detailed information is given by Mirza Muhammad Khaidar douglat on the history of a kind. After the death of Chagataid Kazan Khan, an opponent of nomadic life, the tribal elite of the Mogul tribes decides to form a state independent of the chagataids [source not specified XNUMX days]. The center of the new state is the ownership of the Duglat tribe called “Manglai-Sube”, which, according to Mirza Muhammed Khaidar-Dulat, included Kashgar, Yarkend, Khotan, Kasan, Andijan and others, that is, the south-west of Semirechye along with the regions East Turkestan from Ferghana to Kuchi and Cherchen.
          Since in all Mongolian states, according to tradition, only Chingizid could be a khan, the emir of the Dulat (Doglat, Duglat) tribe of Puladchi, creating an independent khanate, put at its head the nominal (fake) khan of the 18-year-old
          It is believed that the term “Mogulistan” (Mogolistan) is derived from the ethnonym “mogul” (“mogul”), which corresponds to the pronunciation adopted in Central Asia and Kazakhstan and is present in the Turkish-speaking and Persian-historical works of the ethnonym “Mongol”. A large region of the era of the Chagatai ulus in the territory of modern Southeast Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and the north of East Turkestan. Nomadic life was preserved in this region; a relatively large (compared with other regions) Mongols migrated to these lands. Thus, the population of Mogulistan consisted of a large number of Turkized Mongolian and Turkic tribes proper: Duglat (Dulat), Kangla (Bekchik), Kireit (Kireei), Uysun, Arkenut, Baarin, Arlat, Barlas and others. A significant part of these tribes subsequently became part of the Kazakhs, another part, which was located in the Tien Shan and East Turkestan, became part of the Kyrgyz and Uighurs [1].
          1. ikrut
            ikrut 20 December 2012 19: 18
            +2
            Thanks for the sensible comment. In general, this does not contradict my quote. Apparently, those Mughals that today make up such a nation in Afghanistan come from this Moghulistan. It seems that everything is logical. But they have nothing to do with the "Great Moguls".
            Eh. It did not happen to me to visit Central Asia at one time. But the opportunity was good. The brother of his wife served in Termez as a great boss. I invited you. Now he quit and left for his homeland.
            1. marshes
              marshes 20 December 2012 19: 38
              +1
              Quote: ikrut
              . The brother of his wife served in Termez as a great boss. I invited you. Now he quit and left for his homeland.

              And I had to visit the region in the winter of 97-98. smile
        2. skullcap
          skullcap 21 December 2012 10: 38
          +3
          ikrut Yesterday, 18: 06 ↑ ↓ new
          The Kipchaks (ancestors of the Kazakhs) and the Volga Bulgars (the ancestors of the Kazan Tatars
          ----------------------------------------
          The Kipchaks-Polovtsians appeared in the southern Russian steppes long before Batu (even "Igor's regiment" walked them) and they were Caucasian-haired Europeans, and the Kazakhs were Mongoloids, so there are big doubts about their direct relationship.
          But Volga Bulgaria as a state also took place much earlier than Batu. This is visible on school history maps.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 11: 19
            0
            Duc Kazakhs have recently turned into Mongoloids. Now Kazakhs have 70% of Mongoloid features, 500 years ago they had 50%, fifteen hundred years ago there were only 30% of Mongoloid features. These are the official data of Soviet science, based on archaeological and anthropological research. When a red-haired child is born (which is quite common among Kazakhs), any Kazakh grandmother exclaims: "Nagyz a Cossack!" ("A real Kazakh!")
            1. The centurion
              24 December 2012 07: 57
              +1
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Duc Kazakhs have recently turned into Mongoloids. Now Kazakhs have 70% of Mongoloid features, 500 years ago they had 50%, fifteen hundred years ago there were only 30% of Mongoloid features. These are the official data of Soviet science, based on archaeological and anthropological research. When a red-haired child is born (which is quite common among Kazakhs), any Kazakh grandmother exclaims: "Nagyz a Cossack!" ("A real Kazakh!")


              In the Chelyabinsk region there is the Nagaybaksky district, descendants of the Cossacks – Nagaybaks live there. In common people they are called differently: Nogais bakula, bakalintsy, baptized Tatars, red (red) Tatars, because they are mostly really red and caulk. They are in the Orenburg Cossacks already around the 3 centuries, but many older people still speak Russian with a strong accent, and at home everyone speaks mostly Tatar. Very bravely fought in 1812 year as part of the Orenburg Cossack regiments. In gratitude for this, many Cossack villages (now the Chelyabinsk Region) were named after the glorious victories of Russian weapons. So the center of the Nagaibaksky district is called Fershampenoise, and there is also Kassel, Ostroleka, Paris, Trebbia, Arsi, Kulikovsky. Paris even has its own Eiffel Tower replica.
              And in the article everything is quite simple and correct. The roots of such a phenomenon as the Cossacks are uniquely Scythian-Sarmatian, then the Turkic factor strongly superimposed, then the Horde one. Then the Don, Volga and Yaik Cossacks became strongly Russified due to the massive influx of fighters from Russia. For the same reason, the Dnieper Cossacks greatly drenched due to the influx of fighters from ON. The Cossacks of the Aral Sea region from the lower reaches of the Amu-Darya and the Syr-Darya could not be Russified by definition and by geography; therefore, Kara-Kalpaki, the same Cossacks of Zabalkhash, who lived along the rivers flowing into Balkhash, remained. They are rather messed up.
          2. Beck
            Beck 21 December 2012 19: 10
            +1
            Quote: kosopuz
            The Kipchaks-Polovtsians appeared in the southern Russian steppes long before Batu (even "Igor's regiment" went to them) and they were haired Caucasians, and the Kazakhs are Mongoloids, so there are great doubts about their direct relationship.


            You briefly make such a statement that it is possible to answer in two lines, but this will not be clear. And in order to answer, you have to get into the jungle of millennia. But I will try to compose.

            Ancestral home of Indo-European peoples this is the interfluve between the Rhine, Danube, Volga. Indo-European languages ​​are Germanic, Slavic, Romance, Iranian, languages ​​of North India - Hindi. In the 3rd millennium BC. the cattle-breeding tribes of the Indo-Europeans, the Indo-Iranian group, began to migrate beyond the Volga. By 1800-1600 BC. Indo-Iranians moved very far eastward - to the Yenisei and Western Mongolia. Those tribes that remained to the west of the Volga, according to the method of burial, began to be attributed to the "Timber" culture. Oriental to the Andronov culture, by the name of the village on the Yenisei. Subsequently, the Indo-Iranians, under the name of the Aryans, the Aryans, penetrated through Central Asia into Eastern Iran and North India, where, mixing with the local population, they became the progenitors of the modern Iranians and Indians. The Aryans of Iran became farmers, their relatives, the cattle-breeding tribes of the Aryans, settled throughout the territory of Kazakhstan, southern Siberia, and western Mongolia. Andronovo culture of the Aryans existed in the 17th century BC. until the 9th century BC The Aryans of Kazakhstan and Central Asia ended their existence in the 1st millennium BC. Their descendants began to be called Sakas-Tigrahauds, Sakas-Khaumovarga, Massgatemi, Scythians, Sarmatians, Yuchzhenes, Tochars, Sogdians, Issedons, Derbiks, Hephthaliites, Savromats, etc.

            Ancestral home of Turkic peoples it is the steppes of present-day Mongolia and Altai. In the 2nd century BC Turkic Huns created a powerful nomadic power in the steppes of Mongolia. Two centuries fought in the exhausting wars with China. Conquered North China. At this time, they assimilated more often, and for the most part ousted the young people, Ephthalites, Tochars from western Mongolia and the Xinjian region to the territory of Kazakhstan. Andronsevs of the Yenisei and the steppes north of Altai were assimilated. It turned out average, where with black hair, where with blond, but everyone began to speak Turkic languages. In the 1st century AD, the Huns were exhausted in wars with China. A third of them moved to Southeast Kazakhstan where they assimilated the Saks. In the 2nd century, another third went to Northern Kazakhstan and the Volga region. There she assimilated Scythians, Sarmatians, Ugro-Finns. It turned out to be a cross where European blood (Chuvash) prevailed somewhat, but the language became Turkic. Part of this cross in the 4th century, under the Europeanized name of the Hun, went to derban Western Europe. Attila is quite possibly the Europeanized pronunciation of the Turkic Attila - the horseman, meaning the Great Horseman.

            In the 7th century, with the formation of the Turkic Kaganate from the Ussuri River to the Volga and Don. The last population of the Aryans of central Kazakhstan and Central Asia was assimilated by the Turks. But also many Iranian-Aryan words entered the Turkic language. The names of the kings and heroes of the Aryans Rustam, Madi. Nur - permeated with light, radiant. Nursultan is a radiant, radiant sultan. In every Turkic language there is a designation of the earth. But the Aryan designation of the earth - the camp, became the designation of the homeland. Kazakhstan is the land of Kazakhs. Tatarstan is the land of the Tatars. And from the god of the Aryans Ahur-Mazda and his prophet Zarathushtra, the Turks took for themselves the main holiday celebrating a new time, a new year on the day of the vernal equinox - Navruz. This holiday is celebrated only by Turkic-speaking countries, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan.
            1. Beck
              Beck 21 December 2012 19: 36
              +5
              Quote: Beck
              This holiday is celebrated only by Turkic-speaking countries, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan.


              Since the 7th century, everything east of the Volga has become a Turkic-speaking population. In some places Mongoloid features prevailed, in others Caucasoid, but the language became Turkic of different groups and dialects.

              In the 9th century, the Turks, under the name of the Pechenegs, moved from the northern steppes of Kazakhstan to the South Russian steppes. In the 10th century, the Oghuz Turks from the shores of the lower reaches of the Syr Darya and Amu Darya left for Iran, defeated the Baghdad Caliphate, the Byzantine Empire and subsequently formed the Ottoman Empire.

              And only now we approach the Polovtsy. In the 10th century, from the Baraba steppes north of Altai to Northern Kazakhstan moved to the Turkic tribes of Kypchaki who already lived here. In the 11th century, some of them crossed the Volga and replaced the Pechenegs. Since part of the Kipchaks had Russky hair that remained from the Sarmatians and Savromats, the Slavs called them Polovtsy - the color of the floor, straw. The same Kipchaks who remained in the steppes of Kazakhstan remained Kipchaks.

              So, Turkic peoples are the result of thousands of years of historical processes. So, the present Türks have their roots in the proto-Türks of the steppes of Mongolia and the Altai mountains and the Indo-Aryan peoples of the Indo-Europeans.

              Everything has long been mixed up and not by us. And now there are no true Turks like there are no true Slavs.
              1. cherkas.oe
                cherkas.oe 24 December 2012 15: 19
                +1
                Quote: Beck
                Everything has long been mixed up and not by us. And now there are no true Turks like there are no true Slavs.

                Thank you so much for the well-organized and useful information for everyone.
    3. borisst64
      borisst64 20 December 2012 11: 38
      +4
      And as pictures in the style of "fantasy" generally neither to the village nor to the garden.
    4. Vodrak
      Vodrak 20 December 2012 19: 18
      +1
      I didn’t even read to the end. Somehow everything is completely far-fetched
    5. wasjasibirjac
      wasjasibirjac 20 December 2012 19: 45
      -1
      probably Fomenko read. but it’s interesting to read how the altistory
    6. Sotnik77s
      Sotnik77s 25 December 2012 15: 20
      0
      some beleberd
  2. vezunchik
    vezunchik 20 December 2012 09: 53
    +3
    Interesting article. For some reason, no one wants to understand that the history of the Slavs goes back more than one thousand years. The Slavs lived in Siberia at the beginning of the first millennium, Slavic tribes are found in Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq ... If you turn
    to the clay cuneiform tablet, then the Slavic tribes were included in the first "socialist" state of the Hittite kingdom. Yes, and the new Greeks (see other history) came from the east and squeezed out the peoples who lived there ... It's very good that finally we began to speak openly about our roots and the influence of the Slavs on the course of world history.
    And according to the latest data, drunk western Europe leads ....
    1. Shuhrat turani
      Shuhrat turani 20 December 2012 12: 38
      +4
      Recently, a burial site of Australopithecus was found on Antarctica with a map where the center of Antarctica marked the capital of the Slavic Russians of the 40th millennium BC. The city in the form of a swastika with a length of 99 versts and was called Atlantis. it turned out that when Antarctica sank, only the Hyperboreans survived, who across the sky moved to the other pole and formed a new country there, where everyone lived happily. It died as a result of the invasion of countless hordes of h ... rok-Agvanov. The remnants of the Hyperboreans founded the Sumerian Federation, the Egyptian kingdom of the prehistoric period, Babylon, the Het empire, the Chinese kingdom, Troy, Sparta, Rome, and finally KIEV !!!!! We do not know what turns out to be about Slavic history.
      1. klimpopov
        klimpopov 20 December 2012 16: 03
        +3
        Ahhh, + for the humor!
        1. Shuhrat turani
          Shuhrat turani 20 December 2012 22: 58
          +2
          Quote: klimpopov
          Ahhh, + for humor


          thank you ... Nowhere without humor now ...)))
      2. tomket
        tomket 21 December 2012 22: 27
        +1
        and on the moon Neil Armstrong didn’t find a Slav-humanoid with a map of Moscow on Venus? And what would you immediately read the text right away !!! or is there a dictionary attached?))))
      3. stroporez
        stroporez 7 May 2013 13: 51
        0
        smiled wassat but why not a word about the glorious stolen !!! ??????? am
      4. andrew42
        andrew42 21 May 2015 14: 08
        0
        Not funny. This is how the ancient history of our ancestors defamates: connected the Hyperborean myth with several mockery, neighing, and left. So smart that the brain presses the skull?
  3. Middle-brother
    Middle-brother 20 December 2012 10: 15
    +1
    Put a plus, a very entertaining article, despite some controversial points. Well, I'm not a historian ...
  4. sq
    sq 20 December 2012 10: 31
    +3
    article is good, but there is one "but". Fig. 18 indicates that ON was part of the horde, This is not true. The GDL did not pay tribute to the horde and it is incorrect to show it as part of the horde, although many Russian and Soviet historians try to reduce the role of the GDL in history, and often simply keep silent about its existence.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 11: 31
      +3
      ON did not pay tribute, because at one time, their princes helped cool some of the Horde political parties, but nevertheless they were nominally dependent on the Horde and all the rulers of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania received a label for reign, like other vassals.
  5. Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 11: 42
    +3
    The article is interestingly written, but controversial in many points. Although the main idea is quite robust, but many details spoil the impression.
    By the way, black hoods, Circassians and Cumans live and live to this day - these are Karakalpaks and Kazakh clans "Sherkesh" (Younger Zhuz) and "Kypshak" (Kipchak) in the Middle Zhuz.
    At the same time, the Circassians began to be called Circassians for a couple of centuries, although neither they themselves, nor their real neighbors ever called them that. The Adygs adopted an alien name in the same way as the name "Turk" was assigned to the former Byzantine Greeks, and not to the real Turks.
    Well, until the accession to Russia, Kazakhs wore the so-called. "Cossack" hairstyle with forelocks. By the way, few of the Slavs know, but the word "khokhol" (in different sound variations of local dialects) in all Turkic languages ​​literally translates as "chub".
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 12: 08
      +2
      Yes, I would also like to note an important detail for understanding some of the processes taking place at that time. "Tatar-Mongols" consisted of the clans Naiman, Argyn, Kerey, Zhalayyr and others. This is documented in the Eastern chronicles. All these clans today are the core of the Kazakh nation. But the real Mongolian clans (Hoshiuts, Torgauts and others) are not recorded in the western campaigns. Even the "Polovtsy" and those were in the army of the Chingizids. And Kotyan was the khan of the western part of the "Polovtsian" people (and not the largest part). Other Polovtsians entered the army of Genghis Khan after the Khorezmshah state annexed his empire. And they drove Kotyan across the steppe - native "Polovtsy", but serving Chingis.
      And the most "funny" thing is that by and large, the entire first western campaign of the Horde, as a result of which a lot of cities and countries were captured, is just a punitive raid on the rebellious "separatist" Kotyan, who, unlike the rest of the Kipchaks, did not want to join the new Empire ... The Horde troops pursued him for many years in Russia, the Caucasus and Europe, until Batu Khan (Batu was not the "Chief Khan", he was something like the governor of the region and the commander of the military district, in modern terminology) drove him into Hungary (Kotyan had relatives there). The frightened Hungarians themselves killed Kotyan, and since the task was actually completed, and then the Great Khan also died, it was necessary to go home to the Horde. True, the Bulgarians (themselves yesterday's Turkic-speaking steppe inhabitants) screwed up one of the small Horde detachments returning to the Steppe, but Batu did not deal with the Bulgarians, since was in a hurry. He returned the following year and put the Bulgarian Tsar "on the counter" without a fight.
      And another cool infa. Polovtsi Kotyan, once defeated on Kalka, and driven by the rest of the Horde to Hungary, are still alive and well. And although they have long been Christians, they are called Hungarians and are no different from the rest of the Magyars, they still annually send delegations to Kazakhstan to "breathe the smell of the Motherland." almost 800 years have passed, and they are still proud of their roots. amazing!
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 20 December 2012 12: 56
        +2
        Quote: Marek Rozny

        Yes, I would also like to note an important detail for understanding some of the processes that took place at that time. "Tatar-Mongols" consisted of the clans Naiman, Argyn, Kerey, Zhalayyr and others. This is documented in the Eastern chronicles. All these clans today are the core of the Kazakh nation. But the real Mongolian clans (Hoshiuts, Torgauts and others) are not recorded in the western campaigns.

        Question: China, India, Japan, Burma, too, Kazakhs fought?
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 13: 27
          +1
          As for Japan and Burma, they are most likely Mongolian clans. And China and India are relatively speaking, yes, "Kazakh" clans. The same Kipchaks, Barlas, Zhalayyrs, Naimans and other Turkic clans. The Turks, in general, have been at war with the Chinese throughout history. As for India, remember that armies from Moghulistan broke into it. And Delhi for the first time became the capital of the Muslim state of the Turkic sultans. The influence of the Turks was so great that Gandhi once wrote that the Turks influenced India more than even Britain.
          ZY I put the word "Kazakh" in quotation marks at the beginning of the post, because then the Kazakhs as a nation did not call themselves that. The listed clans took the ethnonym "Cossack" only in the middle of the 15th century. And before that, the conglomerate of these clans was called whatever you like - "Mongols" ("eternal people" literally in Turkic, which fully corresponds to the Tengrian worldview of the steppe people, who considered themselves children of the "Eternal Blue Sky"), "Tatars" (not to be confused with the Volga modern Tatars , who were then called Bulgars), "Horde", "Kipchak" (in Asian books), etc. The Türks called their Chingizid state itself uncomplicated - "Ulug ulus" (Great state). The term "Golden Horde" was coined in Western Europe and more recently. As well as, for example, the term "Great Silk Road". These are all European names.
          1. Beck
            Beck 20 December 2012 13: 56
            +4
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            And China and India - relatively speaking, yes, "Kazakh" clans


            Let the fellow countryman here disagree with you. The Türks and the Mongols had a custom of subduing peoples to take troops from these peoples. And the farther from the motherland, the fewer Turks were in the troops and the more peoples of the conquered countries.

            The Batu Khan’s campaign in Poland was already attended by Smolensk regiments and A Nevsky’s squad.

            And in the campaign against Japan and Vietnam, the vast majority of the troops were already Chinese. This explains the defeat of the imperial troops from Japan and Vietnam.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 14: 18
              0
              Honestly, I don't know who exactly was in the Horde army in the campaigns against Japan, Korea and other countries of the region. I don't even have any reasonable version. The only thing I know is that the Turks were not there. Moreover, the "Kazakh" Turks.
              And China Genghis Khan wet with its steppes, and not at the expense of the Han or anyone else.
              Unless in the Indian campaign some other peoples of Central Asia - Afghans, for example, were called to service. Yes, and it seems to me that Afghans from Pashtuns are most likely, because sedentary peaceful Tajiks are not very suitable for harsh military operations. In medieval Afghanistan, by the way, the Turkic-Horde alien population of the locals numbered quite well. They completely drove the Afghans into the mountains, taking away pasture land. It is now from the Horde that there is only an echo in the form of semi-assimilated Hazaras left, and during the time of Mogulistan, the Turks in Afghanistan were the main political and military force. At least, all the few Soviet works on the history of medieval Afghanistan speak of this. At the same time, real Khalkha-Mongols are never mentioned.
              1. Beck
                Beck 20 December 2012 15: 22
                +2
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                Honestly, I don’t know who exactly was in the Horde army on campaigns in Japan,


                China was certainly conquered by the Horde forces. In my youth I perceived a lot literally. Well, the imperial troops suffered defeat in Japan and Vietnam, so they suffered. The truth was somewhat embarrassed by the victory of the Vietnamese. Then, in some documentary about Japan, they showed an old Japanese picture, the same age as the events, which depicted the battle of Khubilai’s troops with Japanese samurai. At first I didn’t understand who is who. Well, I recognized the samurai right away, but looking at the wars Khubilai could not understand. In the picture, the samurai were confronted by people with one pike in hand, in round straw hats and Chinese shirts for graduation, to the middle of the hips. Then he began to rummage in the sources and realized that the Vietnamese lost the battle the Chinese.

                Just like when the Hulagu troops invaded the Middle East and took Damascus. But by this time the base of the army was no longer the Turks, but the Persians, Kurds, Arabs. And in the battles of Ain Jalut and Homs, these troops were defeated by the troops of the Egyptian Sultan Bay Bars. Bay Bars was a Mameluke, his wars were Mamelukes, and Mamelukes are the Turks.

                Marek about the Khalkha Mongol. I’ll send you the other day, in PM, my review of some historical milestones. Where is this confused question from the Khalkha somehow brought out into logical reality.
                1. skullcap
                  skullcap 20 December 2012 16: 54
                  +2
                  Beck (1) Today, 15: 22
                  were defeated by the troops of the Egyptian Sultan of Bey Bars. Bei-Bars was a Mamluk, his wars were Mamluks, and the Mamluks are the Turks
                  -------------------------------------------------- ----
                  So this is where the homemade truth lurked: Australopithecus from Antarctica was actually a Turk!
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 19: 50
                    +2
                    No need to juggle :) Baybars was a Turk and no one in the East argues with that. The only dispute over his origin is whether he is from the "Bersh" clan from western Kazakhstan or a Kipchak born in the Crimea (which, essno, was then the fiefdom of the Turks).
                    The Mamluks mainly consisted of Turks, less often Caucasians and other peoples. By the way, after the capture of Egypt by Napoleon, the Mamluks became the personal guard of the emperor. And near Moscow, on the Setunsky camp in Soviet times, a mass grave of Napoleonic guards was found. In appearance and in rings with Turkic tamgas, it was found that they were Kipchaks who died in battles near Moscow as part of the French army.
                    By the way, the mentioned Beibars defeated the Horde at the battle of Ain Jalut (Palestine, 1260), commanded by the commander Ket-Buk, who was a Naiman. Both the Kipchaks and the Naiman are now part of the Middle Zhuz of the Kazakhs.
                    And the most interesting thing is that after Beibars stopped the Horde forces (more precisely, the remnants of the Horde corps, after the main unit, led by Genghis Khulagu, was forced to return to the Horde due to the death of the Great Khan Munke), Beibars sent a letter to the new Golden Horde ruler Berke Khan with an expression of friendly intentions, they say, they have their own blood. And Burke eagerly reconciled with Baybars. Moreover, he went on a campaign against the Mamluks after endless pleas of the Pope to help in the Crusade against Muslims in the Holy Land.
                    In 1261, Sultan Beybars sent an embassy to the Byzantine emperor Mikhail Paleolog, offered him friendship and asked permission for his merchants to sail through the straits into the Black Sea once a year. At first, the emperor agreed, but then closed the Black Sea straits for the Mamelukes and detained in 1263 the embassy of the Sultan of Beibars, which was sent to the Golden Horde. In response, the Golden Horde ruler Berke Khan sent an army against Mikhail and forced him to reconciliation. This fact indicates the high interest of the Golden Horde to maintain ties with Egypt. Wanting to strengthen this military-political alliance, Baybars married the daughter of Berke Khan.
                    Here it’s really possible to joke that the Kazakh Kipchak fought with the Kazakh Naiman in Palestine, and then reconciled, married a Kazakh woman from the Torah clan (the so-called large Kazakh clan of Genghisides in Kazakhstan).
                    Z.Y. The grave of Baybars in Syria is under the tutelage of the Republic of Kazakhstan; recently it was reconstructed with money from the state budget.
                    1. Shuhrat turani
                      Shuhrat turani 20 December 2012 22: 54
                      +1
                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      Here it’s really possible to joke that the Kazakh Kipchak fought with the Kazakh Naiman in Palestine, and then reconciled, married a Kazakh woman from the Torah clan (the so-called large Kazakh clan of Genghisides in Kazakhstan).

                      Probably, the Kypchaks, as well as the Naimans, are treated incorrectly to the Kazakhs, tk. Kypchaks took an active part in the ethnogenesis of not only the Kazakh people ... Please, "do not pull the blanket over yourself." Sincerely.

                      The Tura-affiliation to Genghisides was such a genus in every ulus (and in smaller areas) of the Mongol Empire.



                      1. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 23: 39
                        +2
                        There are more Kazakh Kipchaks than all other Kipchaks among other Turkic peoples. And there are as many Kazakh Naimans as there are generally all Mongols in Mongolia :)
                        By the way, only the Kazakhs left Chingizids "en masse". The rest of the non-Kazakh branches of the Chingizids disappeared somewhere. And of course ... they really were in every ulus. But now they are not even in Mongolia (I do not mean the clan from which the Redbeard came, namely the Torus - his descendants).
                        Non-Kazakh Chingizids are a piece commodity, so to speak. And the Kazakhs have a rather large genus.
                        Of course, the Kipchaks (and any other Turkic clans) played a large role in the ethnogenesis of many other peoples, but how many Nogais, Kumyks, Siberian Tatars, and others compared to Kazakhs? Like it or not, the Kazakhs include the largest part of these genera.
                        It would seem that there are many Uzbeks, but their ethnogenesis has developed so that most of the ancestors of the current Uzbeks come from the Sarts (or even just from the Tajiks), and the Stepnyak part of the Uzbek people have long merged into one kind of Kurama and few can call themselves specifically Konyrat or Kipchak. Azerbaijanis, with all due respect, will also not be able to call themselves the concrete representative of the mentioned clans, since most often they are the autocratic indigenous inhabitants of present Azerbaijan. For the most part, the Volga Tatars are Bulgars. The Kirghiz clearly preserved their generic structure, but the genera mentioned are literally tiny, but they have many other unique genera (they generally have interesting ethnogenesis). About the Turks - the jaded Greeks, I generally keep quiet. So whatever one may say, few of the non-Kazakh Turks can clearly identify themselves as specifically Kipchaks, and even indicating the subgenus. Unless on the whole they can call themselves Kipchak, implying not their own generic name, but some common ethnonym, which was called the aliens of all Turkic nomads in general.
                        Sincerely.
                    2. skullcap
                      skullcap 21 December 2012 12: 36
                      +2
                      Marek Rozny (3) Yesterday, 19: 50 ↑ ↓ new
                      Do not distort
                      ------------------------------------------
                      Yes, I did not seem to juggle. Just wanted to support the irony of Shuhrat Turani (1) Yesterday, 12: 38 ↑, just send it to the one who started this irony ..
                      I understand the desire of each person to be proud of their ancestors, as well as the desire to look for their glorious accomplishments and deeds in history.
                      I sincerely envied those visitors to the site who consider themselves Turks: how well and in detail they know the chronology of many historical events, despite the fact that by historical standards they received writing recently. Well done.
                      But against this background, it causes a certain bewilderment. Why, while studying and glorifying their history, some do not recognize this right for other peoples, first of all Russian?
                      Academician B.N. Rybakov, in his writings, unequivocally, though not advertised, proved that the culture of Tripoli developed to this day organically without abrupt changes or replacements with new, more recent cultures. That is, throughout the entire historical period, it is native or related to the peoples living in the nearby territories.
                      And the history of this culture belongs to all nations that grew out of it. And they are not enough. And the attempts of the ukrov, recently invented by a non-historical people, to compose their past, appropriating everything they only reach, for their own history is no reason to deny their neighboring nations the right to ascertain their historical path.
                      So please do not be offended - I just ferried the ball to the half with which he flew.
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 13: 05
                        -2
                        Kosopuz, firstly, our writing appeared earlier than that of the Slavs. No offense. The fact that we switched to Cyrillic at the end of the 30s does not mean that we were an unwritten people. Before this period, the Kazakhs used the Latin alphabet, for several centuries - the alphabet based on Arabic, before that the Chagatai and Sogdian scripts, and for one and a half thousand years the ancient Turkic runic writing was in use. And these are not discoveries of "independent" scientists, but a simple statement of fact. You can even look at Soviet encyclopedias.
                        2) None of the local Kazakhs in any way try to infringe on the Russians, or even more insult them. Where did you find it? I myself will send such a relative in three letters. Another thing is that the Kazakhs have fiercely defended and will defend the theme of the origin of the Cossacks. Sorry, but we are literally Cossacks. And the Russian Cossacks emerged as a branch of the Turkic Cossacks, adopting practically everything from the steppe - everyday life, weapons, language, mentality. What offends you? Have Kazakhs belittled Russian culture or history somewhere? Find it here! But you will come across insults against the Kazakhs, but oh well. Kazakhs defend their roots, since almost everything Cossack is ours. And if the Russians think that the ataman, kuren, Cossack, esaul, kosh and even tyutyun are in a Cossack lyalka of Slavic origin, then tomorrow the Russians will prove that the phrase "Altyn kun aspany, altyn dyan dalasy" is even very Russian. Sounds crazy? Well, Duc and for a Kazakh now sounds nonsense that a Cossack who calls himself in Turkic, dressed as a Turk, speaking Turkic, fighting like a Turk, leading a Turkic way of life is supposedly Russian.
                        ZY B. Rybakov is a master of allegory and omission in the style (I exaggerate) "the Slavs did not build tanks until the 15th century." I mean that he very skillfully leads the reader to all sorts of conclusions, while formally he cannot be accused of inaccuracies. He just didn't say it somewhere, somewhere he put it differently. And then you guess in what century the Slavs began to build tanks, and whether they began to build them in the 16th century ...
                    3. s.lekomtseff
                      s.lekomtseff April 8 2013 21: 44
                      0


                      And you are all about the Turks and the Aryans laughing
                  2. Beck
                    Beck 20 December 2012 19: 54
                    0
                    Quote: kosopuz
                    were defeated by the troops of the Egyptian Sultan Bay Bars.


                    Ironize everyone’s business. But for some reason, it so happened that in the Middle Ages in the Middle East and in the Vostok it became fashionable to compose a guard of troops from the Turks. In Egypt, these were the Mamluks. There were two kinds of Mamluks. River Mamluks (island on the Nile) from the Turks. And tower Mamluks (borderline) from the Caucasian peoples. The Iranian shahs had kizilbashi - red-headed, because they wore, as a difference, white trousers with 12 red stripes. And the Mamluks and Kyzylbashi were brave, but also wayward. The Mamluks of Egypt made a coup, killed the ruler of Egypt, and ruled Egypt for about 300 years. Bay Bars was the third Turkic sultan of Egypt. Kyzylbashi also killed the shah at one time and ruled Iran for some time.
                  3. hommer
                    hommer 20 December 2012 20: 46
                    +2
                    Quote: kosopuz
                    Bay Bars was a Mameluke, his wars were Mamelukes, and Mamelukes are the Turks


                    Mamluk is not a nationality, it is a military caste in medieval Egypt, recruited from youth slaves of Turkic (Kipchaks) and Caucasian (Georgians and Circassians) origin, Georgian Mamelukes were called Gurjis.
                    By the way, he stood in Beijing Russian regiment , which was part of the troops of Khubilai.
                    1. Beck
                      Beck 20 December 2012 22: 43
                      0
                      Quote: hommer
                      By the way, in Beijing there was a Russian regiment, which was part of Khubilai’s troops.


                      It stood. The campaign to Vietnam was planned as a general, and a Russian military unit was transferred from Russia to Beijing. But upon reflection, they decided not to direct this compound into the jungle, due to the climate of the jungle, which was quite unusual for the Russians.
    2. Shuhrat turani
      Shuhrat turani 20 December 2012 12: 53
      +6
      Well, until the accession to Russia, Kazakhs wore the so-called. "Cossack" hairstyle with forelocks. By the way, few of the Slavs know, but the word "crest" (in various sound variations of local dialects) in all Turkic languages ​​literally translates as "chub"

      All Cossack terminology has Turkic roots, the truth is that the Cossacks have exclusively Turkic roots, subsequently "Russified" ...
      Brodniks are Orthodox Khazars, subsequently assimilated by the Slavs.
      Torquay, Berendey. Black hoods are tribal groups that, under the onslaught of the Kypchaks (Polovtsy), moved to the border zone of Russia and carried out military service in exchange for land.
      Already in the 10th century, some Polovtsian (Kypchak) clans (clans) adopted Orthodoxy.
      but in general, the early Cossack-steppe gangs, associations of those who left their clans or outcasts (Subsequences involved in the system of feudal relations of the Slavs). In the eastern part of the Steppe, Chinese historians mention the robbery state of Juan Juan (this is in Chinese) - one of the first great images of Cossack cities in the Black Sea region. Juan, the truth ceased to exist as a result of the expansion of the Turkic Kaganate.

      1. tomket
        tomket 21 December 2012 22: 36
        0
        Why should the Cossacks invent a bicycle if it has already traveled across the steppe in the form of the same little knapsacks? What terminology do you mean? What do you mean by Turkic roots? Nationality or terminology and a samovar with a saber?
    3. Shuhrat turani
      Shuhrat turani 20 December 2012 22: 59
      0
      Marek rozny,
    4. Maximars
      Maximars 20 December 2012 23: 33
      +1
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      By the way, few of the Slavs know, but the word "crest" (in different sound variations of local dialects) in all Turkic languages ​​literally translates as "chub".

      But what about the word PENDANT?
      Interestingly, in your opinion: are the black hoods the Karakalpaks, the Circassian-Kazakh clans "Sherkesh", and the Polovtsians are the Kipchaks? Or is it a "cocktail": hoods + Chessy + Kipchaks + Cumans + Kazakhs = Cossacks?
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 00: 01
        +1
        "crest" is a derivative word from Turkism. for example, "cap" is Turkism, and "cap" (from a felt-tip pen, for example) is a derivative word.

        black hoods - literal tracing paper from the ethnonym "Karakalpak" (black hat).
        Circassian - phonetic transmission of the name of the genus "Sherkesh".
        Polovtsy - the Russian name for the Kipchaks (Europeans called the Polovtsy - Cumans).

        Karakalpaks now live in Karakalpakstan (Karakalpakstan) in what is now Uzbekistan. Previously, Karakalpakia was part of the Kazakh SSR. Karakalpaks are practically no different from the Kazakhs. The difference is really tiny.
        Kipchaks (more precisely, those who retained this self-name) now live mainly in Kazakhstan (West, North KZ), as well as in some other peoples - Hungarians, Bashkirs, Kyrgyz, Nogais.
        Circassians (Sherkesh) live in the western KZ.

        and as for the Cossacks, they wrote many times that any hot guy who wanted to live freely, to serve as a mercenary, or even just to bandit could become a Cossack. well, or at worst, to live hunting. it was never an ethnonym. it is a way of life.
        those. For example, I am from the Argyn clan, I was born and live in the ulus of Khan Berke. I am, say, 15 years old, I strive for a free life from my parents, khans and go to the nearest "gang" of free vagabonds. I will roam with them, I will serve as a mercenary to various people, I will form a squad with the boys for the Russian prince Vasya, who decided to rob a neighbor or Bulgarians, then with friends I will rob Vasya or poor Bulgarians myself. I use and throw away women, I rob gold, but I despise. I love only adrenaline, in a word. then time passes, I am no longer attracted by noisy parties and senseless hikes "for the sake of glory" - I find a pretty Ukrainian girl, I return home with her to my native ulus, where an already gray mother cannot rejoice that her son is alive and well not on short visits at the age of three he arrived with gifts, and returned for good to settle down, have children, a household. that's the meaning of the Cossack.
        and then it became an ethnonym in the 15th century, when two Central Asian Chingizid sultans sent three letters of their khan and, together with their people, left the ulus that offended Abulkhair. Well, without thinking twice, they began to call themselves Cossacks (whom the Russians later began to call Kazakhs, to distinguish them from those Don and other Cossacks who were recruited under Russian authority when they could not find another employer). I hope it became clearer)
        1. donchepano
          donchepano 21 December 2012 09: 42
          +3
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Circassians (Sherkesh) live in the western KZ.


          Chekres generally have nothing to do with the Turkic peoples
          The Circassians, like the Kabardins, Adyghe, and others living in the Caucasus belong to the Adyghe - Abkhaz group
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 11: 27
            0
            I wrote above that the Circassians began to call the Circassians, although neither they themselves nor the neighbors called them that. Adygs took a strange name, as the Byzantines took the name of the Turks. But the Kazakhs have a genus Circassian (Sherkesh). And this is their ancient self-name. On the topic of the Circassians, more precisely, how Circassians became Circassians there is a lot of work. To make it clearer, for example, a hundred years ago, Uzbeks were exclusively called nomadic Türks, contrasting them with Sarts - sedentary residents of Central Asian cities with a mixed or Tajik origin. And today we call the Uzbeks just the very same Sarts and Tajiks!
        2. tomket
          tomket 21 December 2012 22: 37
          0
          Everything is simple here, someone is trying to cling to the glory of the Don Cossacks and just plays with words
    5. tomket
      tomket 21 December 2012 22: 29
      +1
      Grew up on the Don, in Kazakh, something no one says)))
      1. nurker
        nurker 21 December 2012 23: 06
        -1
        Was this the case at all times ??? nobody told you that they speak Kazakh in the Don, you are cunning. And Russian historians also already call Genghis Khan Russian ...

        for comparison, I will give an example that during the existence of the USSR, in Kazakhstan, many Kazakhs have become Russified, just such an example exists in all CIS countries, mind you, I am not saying bad or good, I give a fact. But this does not mean that we are all Russian? Right? In Belarus itself, Belarusian is generally spoken little, I do not say that someone is to blame or not to blame, this is a fact. And the fact that you do not speak the Turkic expression does not yet say that they did not use this language before you
  6. Flooding
    Flooding 20 December 2012 12: 52
    0
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    amazing!

    This is not surprising.
    The amazing thing is how much we do not know our story.
    Each historian has his own truth and his own facts.
    Historians have become all and sundry to read on the Internet.
    The head goes round from a variety of theories and frankly fantastic statements.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 13: 53
      0
      "The second World Kurultai of Kypchaks is being held in the regional center of compact residence of Hungarian Kypchaks, Nagykunshag and Kishkunshag, in Kartsag.
      “This year the event was held under the patronage of Chairman of the National Assembly of Hungary Laszlo Carpet, Minister of the Interior Sandor Pinter and ambassador Kazakhstan in Hungary Rashid Ibraev. Sponsors made Hungarian Ministry of Human Resources и national cultural fund", - said in a statement distributed on Friday.

      According to the press service, Minister of Regional Development S. Fazekas noted the importance of cultural assistance to the historical homeland of Kazakhstan in the preservation and prosperity of the Kypchak heritage of Hungary. It is a great honor for the European Kipchaks that the president of Kazakhstan, N. Nazarbayev, is their honorary leader, the minister said.

      As noted, within the framework of the kurultai, traditional festivals and concerts were held, as well as scientific and educational conferences and "round tables" devoted to the history, traditions, life and culture of Kipchak-kun.

      The message recalls that in 2008, the Kypchak Consortium was founded to organize the Kurultays. The association includes the municipalities of Greater and Lesser Kipchakia (total number of members is 260 thousand people).

      The main goal of the “Kypchak Consortium” is the preservation and further development of original traditions and historical rites. Members of the union carry out activities in the field of science, education, culture and tourism.
      (22.09.2012)
      ========
      As you can see, Hungary's Kipchak past is actively supported at the highest governmental level. Moreover, the main Hungarian politicians (including the president) urge Hungarians to abandon the previously dominant theory that the bulk of Hungarians are of Finno-Ugric roots. Now there is a pull to the east in favor of the Turkic-speaking ancestors of the Hungarians in the person of the Huns and Kipchaks. In my old work, I met a lot with Hungarians - everyone supported this version, because, as everyone usually said, “my grandfather told me that our ancestors spoke Turkic and lived in the steppe”. And if now the Germans and the French look in amazement at the Hungarians who have declared themselves Turks, the Kazakhs only laugh, recalling that the genus "Magyars" are also part of the Kazakhs, and that the Kazakhs have always called Hungary "Madjaristan" had the ending "stan" in our language, which the kagbe hints :)))
      1. ikrut
        ikrut 20 December 2012 18: 23
        +1
        Interesting. Apparently this is also the source of the fact that the Hungarian cavalry was considered the best in the world. Ancient roots affected.
        If possible - it would be interesting to know your point of view on this question. How realistic are China's claims to Siberia? If China was always beaten by the Turks and had no influence north and west of the Great Wall. At the same time, I had to see huge stone blocks with hieroglyphs (whose - I don’t know - not specials) found in the local places in the local history museum of Krasnoyarsk. Where are they from?
        1. marshes
          marshes 20 December 2012 18: 47
          +1
          Quote: ikrut
          How realistic are China's claims to Siberia?

          Modern China has no claims whatsoever about Siberia, the Han people (they are thermophilic) were in power another matter of Manzhura, their lands were in the northeast. But they "rotted" the last emperor Pu I. Now, Mongolia, these are the ancestors of the Manzhurs. Chingis Khan, Shygys Khan-eastern khan, possibly the ancestor of the Khakas and Shoig, possibly a direct descendant. smile
          At the expense of stone slabs, they are also offered on the territory of Kazakhstan, but these are symbols of the torture of "baptism" into Buddhism of nomads who professed Tengriism; by the way, there are steles with a runic letter in Ukraine. Dneprodzerzhinsk.
          1. ikrut
            ikrut 20 December 2012 19: 12
            +2
            Thanks. About Buddhism - very convincing. The origin of the hieroglyphs becomes clear. The expansion of Chinese Buddhism to the north and west is well known. Then this in no way can be the basis of any state. "claims", since Buddhism in China has almost never been a state. religion (although sometimes it was supported at the state level). As for the Manzhurov, I think that their influence on the territory of present-day Siberia and the Far East was not so significant. Even the Buryats, as far as I know from conversations with them, themselves appeared in the floodplain of the Irkut and to the east only in the time of Chingiz, as nomads. And they settled there rather locally. And they are not Buddhists, by and large. In the hinterland, they worship "Burkhans". They are rather pagans (shamanists with a touch of animism).
            Another question. As far as I know, runic inscriptions have nothing to do with Buddhism. The origins of Buddhism in India. The first sutras were written in Pali. Then came the Chinese sutras. Runes are completely different.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 20: 18
              0
              By the way, about the Buryats. They settled on the lands where the Kyrgyz lived. The main part of the Kyrgyz moved to the territory of present-day Kyrgyzstan, and some part assimilated with the Mongol-speaking newcomers who came. At the same time, a huge number of Turkic words, as well as the word "Buryat", got into the Buryat language. This word was used to name the ancestors of the Kyrgyz - "burut". I do not know why they were called that, but this word has been applied to the Kyrgyz to this day. The Kyrgyz, by the way, were the main Buddhists in Semirechye. They have ruins of Buddhist temples everywhere. Whether they were Buddhists when they lived in Siberia - I don't know.
        2. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 20: 12
          +2
          Hieroglyphs or ancient Turkic runes were? There are monuments where the Orkhon-Yenisei runes coexist with Chinese characters. Due to this, in the 19th century, the Danes Thomsen was able to decipher the ancient Turkic runic script.
          The Turks not only constantly buragozi with the Chinese, but also the cultural exchange was strong. Chinese "Pushkin" Li Bo praised the yurt, and the Turkic women demanded Chinese silk dresses from their men. The Han people actively tried to resolve the issue with the nomads (either the Turks, the Mongols, or the Tungus) through cultural assimilation. Just like the Romans tried to tame the Germans. The Chinese writing was well known to the Huns (more precisely, the Huns). The epitaph in honor of the deceased Kagan of the Türkic Kaganate Kültegin was carved in ancient Türkic and Chinese in the 7th century AD. (the monument is located on the territory of modern Mongolia).
          Well, and the Chinese themselves, essno, never moved deeper outside the Wall, except that they went on hikes. Another thing is that after the overthrow of the Chingizid regime, China was ruled by the Jurchen / Manchus, who really left Siberia and controlled a significant territory. After the liquidation of the Manchu dynasty, the Chinese simply decided to appropriate all their political and military achievements, without having any legal grounds for this. Until the 20th century, no one conducted any negotiations with the Chinese, but only with the Manchus (the Kazakhs called them "rustling").
        3. hommer
          hommer 20 December 2012 21: 03
          +2
          Quote: ikrut
          If China has always been beaten by the Turks


          Not always. The empire was beaten during periods of weakening due to internal reasons. The steppes conquered China, the leader became emperor. It was possible to manage the country only with competent officials, therefore, the Chinese administrative apparatus was preserved. The children of the conquerors were already pampered with comfortable living conditions in the palaces, but still successfully repelled the attacks of their brothers from behind the wall. The grandchildren no longer knew their native language, having mastered the Chinese language and writing. After three or four generations, the conquerors were dissolved in an incommensurably large nation. This happened repeatedly. The Chinese sincerely consider Genghis Khan to be one of their emperors.
          More often than not, Han people regulated relations in the steppe, choosing one kind or another, supporting them with weapons, and selectively trading only with that kind, pursuing their own politics in the steppe through them.
    2. donchepano
      donchepano 21 December 2012 09: 45
      +1
      And Moldovans - like Romanians to the Romanesque group. Perhaps the descendants of the Romans
    3. stroporez
      stroporez 7 May 2013 14: 22
      0
      true ------- the girl is naked, and each of her in his own way wassat
  7. Oidsoldier
    Oidsoldier 20 December 2012 13: 14
    +1
    The article is more like an illustrated fairy tale than a historical work. There are no primary sources, references to them or the results of excavations, etc. archaeological data that would unambiguously confirm the author’s claims.
    1. reading
      reading 20 December 2012 17: 02
      +2
      And it seemed to me so. Although I am not a specialist and live on the Don, local local historians set out somewhat differently. And the truth is somewhere nearby ...
  8. Farvil
    Farvil 20 December 2012 13: 26
    +3
    That’s the answer why Russia has such a large territory, it simply became the head of the Golden Horde, because they were their own and rightfully took the place of Chengizites.
    1. tomket
      tomket 21 December 2012 22: 40
      0
      learn history and you will be happy.
  9. Beck
    Beck 20 December 2012 13: 30
    0
    Read. The author of the article, in my opinion, mixed everything together. I will post another version based on the works of S.G. Professor Klyashtorny, Head of the Department of Turkology and Mogolistics of the Institute of Oriental Studies in St. Petersburg and T.I. Sultanov, doctor of historical sciences of the same institute. If you approach impartially, I think it will be more objective than Volgin's article.

    The word ҚAZAҚ is of Turkic origin, since it contains two uvular Қ. Slavic words have a different structure in the Turkic-Arabic dictionary, compiled in Egypt in 1245 and published in Leiden in 1894. The word ҚАЗАҚ is translated as “homeless, homeless, exile, wanderer”. Initially, it was a household word - Free, Wanderer.

    The term ҚАЗАҚ among the Turks also had a social meaning (an ancient custom). This condition, the position of a certain person, collective at any given moment in relation to society, the ruler, the state. Among the Turkic-speaking peoples, it was considered commendable to be a Cossack at least once in a lifetime, but Cossacks mostly became young. That is, to lead the life of an adventurer and at that moment not have obligations to the family, clan, tribe and not have the power of a sultan or khan. Having shown, people could at any time freely return to the house and take on social obligations to the family, clan, tribe and recognize the power of the Sultan and Khan. Cossacks lived near water sources, mainly rivers, hilly ridges that are natural borders of tribes and peoples, existing by hunting and dashing raids on adjacent territories. At the same time, these Cossacks served as a kind of border guard and outpost.

    Both the cattle breeder and the prince of blood could become a Cossack equally, and they were equal in the Cossacks. The Cossacks at one time were the son of Khan Tokhtamysh Jamaladin, Khan Abu al-Khair, Khan Mohammed-Sheybani, Sultan Husain. Another feature (which influenced the formation of the Russian Cossacks) was that the Cossacks accepted not only and exclusively Türks, but both the Persian who came and the fugitive Slav could become a Cossack.

    In those distant days, when the South Russian steppes were not yet Russian, there were several areas of settlement of Turkic Cossacks among Turkic tribes and peoples. Cossacks were East Turkestan - Uygur-Xinjiang region and Semirechye - Southeast Kazakhstan. Chutur-Cossacks - Northern Ciscaucasia. Desht and Nogai Cossacks - between the Irtysh and the Dnieper. And these Cossacks were not of permanent composition. Some of them showed off to their villages, others came.

    The addition of the Russian Cossacks and Kazakhs as a people took place at about the same time. In the 15th century, the khan of the White Horde stretching from the Irtysh to the Volga, and from Tyumen to Syr-Darya was the khan of Abu al-Khair. In 1459, dissatisfied with the policy of the khan, the sultans Girey and Dzhanibek left him. They went to Kazakhs, to free people. But violating traditions, it was not alone that they left, but all tribes subject to them took with them. To differ from the subjects of the Khan, these tribes took on the common name of the Cossack (Buva to x were replaced only in Soviet times). After the death of Abu al-Khair, Jinibek and Giray seized all power in the steppe and all Turkic tribes took on a new name Қаза себе.

    The growth of feudal exploitation in the 14-15 centuries in the Russian and Polish-Lithuanian states led to the mass exodus of peasants and townsmen outside the borders of these states to the south, in the middle and lower reaches of the Dnieper and Don. And mostly men fled. Here they met the gangs of Turkic Cossacks, who, honoring customs, accepted them into their midst, that is, into Cossacks. Now, the boyar detachments sent for the fugitives did not meet the fugitives, but the Cossacks, who knew the techniques of horse fighting and who did not give offense to their new members.
    1. Beck
      Beck 20 December 2012 13: 37
      +4
      Quote: Beck
      they did not give offense to their new members.


      But there was one difference between the Turkic Cossacks and the new Slavic. Having shown the Türks, they could return to their villages. The Slavs were not able to return to the yoke of serfdom. This circumstance violated yet another law - bachelor life. In the end, the Slavs of the Cossacks began to marry and initially on the Turkic women, then on the Slavs. The influx of Slavs was constantly increasing and in the end Slavic blood and Slavic speech began to prevail.

      But still in the Cossack dialect are the original Turkic words. Ataman. Ata - Father, Man, men - I. In the meaning of the Old Man. Baz is a farmyard. Kuren - initially a combat unit, then a hut, a house. Esaul - Isaul, the head of the squad. UR in Turkic - Bay, Beat. Cossack lava rushed in the attack with a long cry of OURRRRR and exhale at the end of A.

      These already free Slavic-Turkic Cossacks at the end of the 14th century began to be hired by the Russian state for the border service, from the Wild Field. For the first time, the Cossacks, without reference to the fact that they were just Russian people, are mentioned in Russian sources at the end of the 14th century.

      - The Cossacks were free people, free of tax. Service Cossacks were divided into city and village (watch) and were used - city - to protect cities and maybe to perform police functions, - village - to serve at watch posts on the outskirts of the state.

      And who in Russia of the 14th century could be free and free from tax if not the Cossacks. There were no other free estates in Russia. For this service, the Cossacks received land on the terms of local ownership and salaries. In the end, the land occupied by them - the land system - was assigned to the Cossacks. In subsequent centuries, Russian Cossacks forgot about the roots of their education.

      Subsequently, the first Cossack army in the 16th century, the Region of the Don Army, was formed from the Slavic Cossacks by the Russian government. Then, the resettlement of part of the Don Cossacks to the Terek formed the Terek Cossacks. Such relocation formed other Cossacks. And according to tradition, from the Turkic Cossacks, the Russian Cossacks served as border guards and were the advance detachment of Russia's advancement in the southeast.

      This my comment is not for exaltation, but to show the community of intertwined stories and destinies of our peoples.
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 20 December 2012 14: 01
        +1
        Quote: Beck
        But there was one difference between the Turkic Cossacks and the new Slavic. Having shown the Türks, they could return to their villages. The Slavs were not able to return to the yoke of serfdom .... The influx of Slavs was constantly increasing, and in the end Slavic blood and Slavic speech began to prevail.

        So peremptory and confident?
        Based on what? The presence of words of Turkic origin?
        So they are now in Russian.
        And after about three hundred years they will talk about how great the Turks who created the Russian state were ...
        No, give facts and sources. I will draw conclusions myself.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 14: 39
          +3
          The fixed names of the first atamans in Russian sources are exclusively Turkic. The way of life and language is exclusively Turkic (and they spoke Turkic until the end of the 19th century, starting from the memoirs of Tolstoy, where he writes that at home the Cossacks spoke to each other only in Turkic and up to incidents in SKV, OKV, when a private The Christian Cossack, seemingly Russian by nationality, could not explain himself to the officer who had arrived from St. Petersburg in Russian, but explaining himself only "in Kyrgyz"). And even if we assume that this is only because of the influence of the nearby living Turks, then if they completely adopted the language, then the rest of the influence even on 100% Slavic Cossacks can be considered huge without exaggeration.
          The entire life of the Cossacks until recently, until they began to plow, was completely identical to the usual Turkic. From household and kitchen to clothing and military strategy. Only under Catherine was the Cossacks ceremonial in European uniforms and officially forced to speak Russian.
          Naturally, from each century, the Cossacks more and more took over the Slavs, communicated in Russian and became just the Russian sub-ethnic group, but the roots of the Cossacks are Turkic and only Turkic.
          For example, the Kazakhs have a kind of "kozhA" ("khoja"). Kazakhs know that this genus was originally Arab a thousand years ago. Now they have completely assimilated among the Kazakhs - they speak only Kazakh, in everyday life they are 100% the same as other Kazakhs, but everyone remembers that they were once Arabs. It's not bad, it's not good, it's just a fact. There is a clan "Uysun", which 2000 years ago were a Saka (Scythian) clan, now they are also ordinary Kazakhs, but everyone remembers that they lived here before the Huns and other Turkic-speaking nomads poured into the Steppe. I have a mother - uysunka. They were once non-Turkic.
          So your Russian Cossacks were once high-cheeked Turkic-speaking free nomads. And they vaguely remember this themselves, although many of course do not want to see their ancestors - Asians. But nevertheless, before the revolution, the Cossacks usually clearly opposed themselves to the ordinary ethnic Russian. Take any memoirs of contemporaries or just real experts of the Cossack world - Tolstoy, Sholokhov and others - seemingly "Orthodox Russian-speaking" Cossacks, but they clearly said "Russians are not our kin." On the other hand, the Cossacks always quickly found a common language with a "Kyrgyz" or Tatar (when they were not fighting for the interests of St. Petersburg).
          It would never occur to me in my life to call a modern Cossack a Kazakh or a Turk. It's too big a difference already. But I repeat once again, the roots of this Cossack (if not genetic, then cultural) are my native Turkic. And the Cossacks are another bridge between our Slavic and Turkic peoples. There is so much Turkic in Russian culture - from felt boots to vocabulary, and modern Kazakhs have become so Russified that we can all be called "Cossacks" :)))
          1. Beck
            Beck 20 December 2012 15: 45
            0
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Take any memories of contemporaries


            If you carefully read Lermontov, it is clear that Lermontov does not mix the Russian soldier and the Cossack. He does not identify them in one nation, in one nation.
          2. The centurion
            21 December 2012 07: 15
            +4
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            The recorded names of the first atamans in Russian sources are exclusively Turkic.

            List is not difficult. Ploskinya, Kudiyar (Kudislav Yariy) seems not to be Turkic.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 11: 54
              0
              Please: the first recorded ataman of the Don Cossacks is a certain Sary-Azman.
              Kudiyar (Kudeyar) is a Turkic name (of Persian origin, "Beloved by God"). Until now, in use among the Turkestan peoples in different phonetic variations.
              But as for brodniks and Ploskini - the devil knows him. The venerable historians cannot answer these questions, not that you and I.
        2. Beck
          Beck 20 December 2012 14: 46
          0
          Quote: Flood
          So peremptory and confident?


          Respected. Confidently, but not peremptorily. You read and somehow caught only the words. The main thing is that among the Turks and the ancient times there was an institution of Cossacks. Where young people lived without the power of the khan and edification of elders. Where they could show their boldness. And the word KAZAK itself is a Turkic word. Other nations did not have an institution of Cossacks, there was nothing similar.
          From here I draw a conclusion. And the presence of indigenous Turkic words among Russian Cossacks is one of the main proofs.
          Or do you think that the word KAZAK, which coincides with the Russian Cossack and means the self-designation of my people, is pure coincidence. If such a coincidence were among peoples on different continents, then this could be called an accident. And among the peoples of neighbors living side by side with the millennium, the adoption of customs and traditions is the rule.

          And no offense. After three hundred years, a normal person will never say that the Türks created the Russian state. And now there are some who claim that the Golden Horde is the essence of the Russian state and the Turks have nothing to do with it.

          After all, at the beginning of the comment, I indicated that I relied on the work of Klyashtorny and Sultanov.
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 20 December 2012 17: 34
            +3
            Quote: Beck
            The main thing is that among the Turks and the ancient times there was an institution of Cossacks. Where young people lived without the power of the khan and edification of elders.

            The fact is that the institution of Cossacks was successfully adopted by Russia. Which used it to create Cossacks in Siberia. Not suggestive?
            Quote: Beck
            If you carefully read Lermontov, it is clear that Lermontov does not mix the Russian soldier and the Cossack. He does not identify them in one nation, in one nation.

            Of course, who can argue. The Cossack has always stood apart. Since you will not find Lermontov's lines about such a nation or people as a "soldier".
            Quote: Beck
            And the word KAZAK itself is a Turkic word

            I agree. And this word appeared when? True, in the days of the Tatar-Mongolian.
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            So your Russian Cossacks were once cheeky Turkic-speaking free nomads. And vaguely they themselves remember this, although many certainly do not want to see Asians in their ancestors.

            Amazing situation. The Cossacks themselves do not want to see the Turks as their ancestors. And the Turks want to see the Cossacks as their brothers. Who is right? In your opinion, everything is so clear. Cossacks and no need to ask.
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Sholokhov and others - seemingly "Orthodox Russian-speaking" Cossacks, but clearly said "Russians are not our kin." But with a "Kyrgyz" or Tatar, the Cossacks always quickly found a common language

            Everything is not quite as you see it. Of course, the same Tatar Cossack is more understandable (but not dearer), because the mentality is closer. Mentality dictated by living conditions. But you forgot to mention one important factor - the Cossacks up to the last kept the Old Orthodox faith (Old Believers). And many were oppressed, including for this. Therefore, talking about special love between Cossacks and other Russian people is probably incorrect.

            Quote: Marek Rozny
            The way of life and language is exclusively Turkic (and they spoke Turkic until the end of the 19th century, starting from the memoirs of Tolstoy, where he writes that at home the Cossacks spoke to each other only in Turkic and up to incidents in SKV, OKV, when a private The Christian Cossack, seemingly Russian by nationality, could not explain himself to the officer who had arrived from St. Petersburg in Russian, but explaining himself only "in Kyrgyz").

            Better argue on this topic with respected Beck. He assures that the Slavic speech gradually replaced the Turkic with a rush of Slavic blood. And to listen to you, in the 19th century the Cossacks spoke exclusively in Tatar. True, Beck does not specify when this "displacement" took place. Or maybe everything is easier to explain? Was the ordinary Christian Cossack "kind of Russian"? Let's reread Tolstoy.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 20 December 2012 17: 44
              +1
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              The way of life and language is exclusively Turkic ... up to incidents ... when an ordinary Christian Cossack, seemingly Russian by nationality, could not speak ... in Russian, but explaining himself only "in Kyrgyz").

              Better argue on this subject with a respected Beck. He assures us that Slavic speech gradually supplanted Turkic with a surge of Slavic blood.
              And to listen to you, in the 19th century the Cossacks spoke exclusively in Tatar. True, Beck does not specify when this "displacement" took place.
              Or maybe everything is easier to explain? Was the ordinary Christian Cossack "kind of Russian"?
              Let's reread Tolstoy.
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 20 December 2012 17: 45
                +2
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                The entire life of the Cossacks until recently, until they began to plow, was completely identical to the usual Turkic. From household and kitchen to clothing and military strategy.

                Is it really so?

                But among other things, dug-outs were widespread among the Don Cossacks.
                "In the image of the arrangement of Cossack dwellings," noted VD Sukhorukov, "in the first half of the XNUMXth century there is nothing different from their primitive state. The main town of Cherkaska consisted of dugouts ...". According to VB Bronevsky and A.A. Leonov, dwellings in early towns were also dugouts. V.V.Kogitin and M.A. Ryblova believe that the most ancient type of buildings for riding Cossacks were dugouts and semi-dugouts. The statement that at the beginning of the formation of the Cossacks, the main type of Don dwelling was a dugout or a semi-dugout can also be found in one of the works of E.V. Pyavchenko

                By the way, since we touched on this topic, it would be nice to recall about ritualism: burial, folklore, weddings, etc.
                What about the Circle? From whom did they adopt this form of self-government?

                To summarize, there are a lot of weak points in your theory. Naturally, the Cossacks, living side by side with the Turkic-speaking neighbors, could not but adopt much, much. Naturally, for hundreds of years there has been a place to be exchanged in all areas of human activity. Cossack ethnos is an interesting phenomenon that requires careful and in-depth study. And its ethnic composition, apparently, was never homogeneous. But looking from the heights of today, we can safely say that Slavic culture has become a fundamental element.
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 21: 23
                  0
                  In the 17th century, those Cossacks had a permanent troubles with housing. In his novels, the Polish writer Senkevich well noted that Cossack houses were constantly burned by Polish punishers, and the Cossacks no longer really tried to have a normal home. And dugouts also helped to be more secretive. I do not remember the exact wording, but the meaning is this.
                  In general, such simple little adobe houses are built by all nomads for wintering. In winter, nomads usually live in houses, which they throw in the spring, leaving for a nomad on a spring pasture. And then they return again in the winter, putting in order the house for the winter. Kazakhs are no exception. Not all year the steppe lives in a yurt. Moreover, it all depends on the terrain. Kazakhs generally live in the bare steppe. But those who lived in what is now Ukraine had access to the forest, and finding a stone was not a very big problem. Look at the housing of the Altai Turks - they began to live in chopped huts even earlier than the Slavs. True, the shape of their huts is round and similar to a yurt) But nevertheless, their housing is radically different from the neighboring Kazakh, located a couple of hundred kilometers in the Steppe.
                  As for folklore, all Cossack tales have absolutely identical options among the Türks, including and Kazakhs. Generally just the same. The difference in burials is related to religion. For Kazakhs, this ritual has changed a lot over the past centuries. With all desire, I can’t bury my parents as well as the Turkic ancestors buried. Those guys have Orthodoxy, we have Christianity. And no one has been doing mounds for a long time.
                  And what differences were there between the Cossack wedding until they became Russian soldiers and Kazakhs - I do not know. Tell in a nutshell? Considering the religious difference.
                  As for the Cossack Circle, well, so the Kazakhs just as well until the Revolution also decided all more or less important matters in the villages. Even under tsarist rule, aul elders were elected like that. The only difference between the Cossack Circle and the Kazakh counterpart is that the Cossacks had a priest with a cross and the Gospel. That’s the whole difference. Read on the internet - try to find the difference.
                  1. Flooding
                    Flooding 21 December 2012 11: 13
                    +2
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    In his novels, the Polish writer Senkevich well noted that Cossack houses were constantly burned by Polish punishers, and the Cossacks no longer really tried to have a normal dwelling.

                    Yes, yes, and even Polish women tore the chain mail with their hands, and the gentry jumped in full knightly armor on a horse, without touching the stirrup. We know, they read the great historian Senkevich.
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    In general, such simple little adobe houses are built by all nomads for wintering.

                    Pay attention - the house is chopped. It is called a five-wall.
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    As for folklore, all Cossack tales have absolutely identical options among the Türks, including and Kazakhs

                    Hmm, let me doubt it. What is your confidence based on? In the study of Cossack folklore?
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 12: 07
                      0
                      10 Ok, one can perceive Senkevich in different ways, especially considering his nationality (Pole, and even not entirely pure - a direct descendant of "Polish-Lithuanian" Turks, by the way). However, there is a sense in his words. The Cossacks we are talking about now did not create permanent residences (by the way, their temporary sites were called "kosh" - a purely Turkic word). They were constantly gouged by the same Poles, burning everything clean. And those Cossacks were forced to bury themselves in the ground like moles. Exactly in the same way as during the Second World War in the occupied territories, people dug dugouts so as not to attract the attention of the Germans from afar. No wonder.
                      2) Did you get to the bottom of the house material? I think I wrote that the surrounding area always dictates its own rules. There are no trees in the bare steppe - they are built from adobe. Where there is a forest - build from the forest. As an example, he cited the undoubted Asiatic Türks - the Altai, who have been chopping huts since ancient times (the oldest hut was recorded in the Turkic Altai).
                      3) I was born in Russia. The houses were stuffed with fairy tales (Kazakhs), and in kindergarten and school - with Russian fairy tales. Well, having matured, he rummaged with interest in Cossack folklore. From fairy tales to 19th century songs. The topic is rich and interesting. As for the general correspondence of fairy tales among Russians and Kazakhs, there are materials by Chokan Valikhanov. He conducted research on this subject two centuries ago.
                      1. Flooding
                        Flooding 21 December 2012 13: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        Ok, one can perceive Senkevich in different ways, all the more, given his nationality (Pole, and even not entirely pure - a direct descendant of the "Polish-Lithuanian" Turks, by the way). However, there is a sense in his words. The Cossacks we are talking about now did not create permanent residences (by the way, their temporary sites were called "kosh" - a purely Turkic word). They were constantly gouged by the same Poles, burning everything clean.

                        Are you talking about donuts? No, in my opinion, I missed somewhere when the conversation began about the Cossacks.
                        But bring all into one boiler. So even more interesting.
                        But I, naive, spoke about the life of the Don Cossacks ...
                        After all, you deigned to write that their culture is exactly repeating the culture of neighboring Turkic peoples.
                        No, I can’t wait for an explanation, I already understood that.
                        Just by the way ...
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        Did you get to the bottom of the house material?

                        No, I didn’t dig too much. He simply showed a picture to an educated person without even the thought of giving an explanation. It turns out that something needs to be clarified.
                        It was not worth referring to the Altai log houses. Or are you transparently hinting that the Don people suddenly started talking to the genetic memory and they decided "and I will build a dike, like my distant great-great-great-grandfathers." But here's the catch, the house is five-walled, Russian. Not ala yurt.
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        In general, such simple little adobe houses are built by all nomads for wintering

                        These are not your words? Adobe houses, indeed, were common among neighboring Turkic-speaking peoples. I am sure that the Cossacks also found use for them. BUT it still doesn’t work out in your opinion:
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        The entire life of the Cossacks until recently, until they began to plow, was completely identical to the usual Turkic. From household and kitchen to clothing and military strategy.
                2. Beck
                  Beck 20 December 2012 21: 51
                  -3
                  Quote: Flood
                  What about the Circle? From whom did they adopt this form of self-government?


                  Initially, the Circle of the Cossack Turks was used to select the leader, Old Man, Ataman. And it was not at all necessary that a noble Turk who came to showcase, for example, a young sultan, would be chosen as the ataman. And the sultan unquestioningly had to obey the chieftain. At the circle, some economic issues of the company were also resolved. And already with the Russian Cossacks, the Circle became an institution of self-government of the entire Region of the Cossack army.
                  1. tomket
                    tomket 21 December 2012 22: 52
                    +3
                    The Turks did not invent the Cossack circle, this is a normal phenomenon of military democracy, so do not ascribe the homeland of elephants to yourself
                    1. Beck
                      Beck 21 December 2012 23: 22
                      -1
                      Quote: tomket
                      The Turks did not invent the Cossack circle, this is a normal phenomenon of military democracy


                      But I didn’t say that they invented. Just Turkic Cossacks gathered for the elections in a vaman, to solve some problems. Call it circle, gangway. Subsequently, the Russian Cossacks transferred it to the Institute of Cossack self-government.
              2. Ascetic
                Ascetic 21 December 2012 14: 06
                +3
                Quote: Flood
                Or maybe everything is easier to explain? Was the ordinary Christian Cossack "kind of Russian"?
                Let's reread Tolstoy.


                The Cossacks, as the CONDITION, began to take shape in Russia with the development and establishment of feudal (not to be confused with serfdom) law. The Cossacks are not any special nationality, these are the same Russian people and not only Russians, if you really dig deeper into the truth, with their historical roots and traditions. But the main thing is that they were Russians in spirit and traditions and customs dating back to the time of Svyatoslav, even pre-Christian Russia.
                Although I agree, the word "Cossack" is of Turkic origin and in translation means, in my opinion, "a free man or warrior"
                In Russia, Cossacks called free people living on the outskirts of the state. As a rule, in the past it was runaway peasants, slaves and the urban poor.Leaving people's homes was forced by their disenfranchised position, poverty, to bondage. These fugitives were called "walking" people. The government, with the help of special detectives, tried to track down those who had gone on the run, punish them and put them back to their old place of residence. However, the mass shoots did not stop, and gradually on the outskirts of Russia, entire free regions arose with their Cossack administration.
                In the XVI century there were already many Cossack settlements, whose inhabitants, in accordance with geographically called Cossacks: Zaporozhye, Don, Yaitsky, Grebensky, Tersky, etc.
                These free people were mainly engaged in raids, robbery and robbery, and also served as mercenaries in various wars.
                Subsequently, the growing Moscow state and then the Russian Empire became concerned with the problem of taming this "freeman" and the creation of irregular military formations from the Cossacks on a territorial basis to protect their own ever expanding borders and outskirts.
                In the XVIII century, the government transformed the Cossacks into closed military estate, which was obliged to perform military service in the general system of the armed forces of the Russian Empire. First of all, the Cossacks were supposed to guard the borders of the country - where they lived. In order for the Cossacks to remain faithful to the autocracy, the government gave the Cossacks special privileges and privileges. Cossacks were proud of their position, they developed their own customs and traditions, which were passed down from generation to generation. They considered themselves to be a special people, and called the inhabitants of other regions of Russia “nonresident” This continued until 1917.
                Soviet power ended the privileges of the Cossacks and eliminated the isolated Cossack regions. Many of the Cossacks were repressed. The state has done everything to destroy the traditions that have developed over the centuries. But it could not completely make people forget about their past.. Because the estate and conservative Cossacks appeared to the keepers namely Russian communal and retinue traditions
                which by no means fit into the idea of ​​proletarian internationalism
            2. marshes
              marshes 20 December 2012 17: 47
              0
              Flood.
              Judging by the flag, you are from Moldova.
              And Moldova lived in the capital of Gagauzia (it is autonomy within Moldova), the city of Comrat, a bust of the President of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbayev was established. This was reported by the Kazakh Foreign Ministry.
              The bronze monument was created by the Moscow sculptor Konstantin Konstantinov. The opening ceremony was attended by the head of Gagauzia, Mikhail Formuzal. He noted that the decision to erect the bust was "a tribute to the eminent statesman who led his people at a turning point in history and confidently leads them to prosperity."
              "Nursultan Abishevich Nazarbayev not only preserved the state, but also strengthened its international authority," Formuzal stressed.
              The bust of Nazarbayev was installed on the Comrat Walk of Fame, where the authorities of Gagauzia decided to immortalize "outstanding political figures of the Turkic world." In addition to the monument to the Kazakh leader, busts of former Turkish President Suleiman Demirel and former Azerbaijani leader Heydar Aliyev have already been installed there.
              The fact that a bust of the Kazakh leader will appear in Moldavian autonomy became known back in November last year. Note that this is not the first monument to Nazarbayev, installed outside of Kazakhstan. In particular, there are monuments to Nazarbayev in Turkish Ankara and the Kyrgyz city of Cholpon-Ata. They are TURKS, not descendants of the Turks but descendants of the Kypshaks.
              Previously, the steppe stretched. The Polovtsian steppe or Desht-i-Kypchak (Pers. دشت قپچاق, Crimean Tat. Deşt-i Qıpçaq, Kyrgyz. Deshte-kypchak, Kazakh. Deshti Қypshaқ, Қypsha dalasy, bashtq dtq ; Uzbek dashti-qipchoq; translated from Persian “Kypchak steppe”) - the historical region of Eurasia, representing the Great Steppe, stretching from the mouth of the Danube to the lower reaches of the Syr Darya and Lake Balkhash.
              In Persian and Arabic sources of the XI-XVI centuries. also referred to as Kibchak, Khikhchak, Kichchak, Kepchak, Hifchak [1].
              In the late Middle Ages and New Time, the Polovtsian steppe was inhabited by the peoples of the Kypchak group: Tatars, Bashkirs, Nogais, Kyrgyz, Kazakhs, Kumyks, Altai and Karakalpaks. Nowadays, the Polovtsian steppe is mainly divided between the states of Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan, also a small part of the steppe in the west belongs to Romania and Moldova.
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 20 December 2012 18: 12
                +3
                Thanks for the information, swamps.
                Heard about the Gagauz. Somehow it happened, we live nearby and even know it personally.
                I also read about their origin, although the information may vary in different sources.
                And, by the way, it would not hurt you to read about the resettlement of the Gagauz to Moldavian lands from the Balkans.
                And following your logic, you can draw the following conclusion from what you wrote: Moldovan ancestors - Slavs!
                Do not laugh, I am absolutely serious.
                First, the Slavs from ancient times lived on these lands.
                Secondly, up to now, in spite of the implanted Latinization, not less than 10-20% (according to various sources) of Slavisms remained in the Romanian and Moldavian languages.
                And in the good old days there were at least 30% of them!
                What do you say to that?
                1. marshes
                  marshes 20 December 2012 18: 24
                  0
                  Quote: Flood
                  Moldovan ancestors - Slavs!

                  It is quite possibly interesting that the East Germanic tribes are also Slavs. Not long ago I saw a discussion somewhere but forgot on which site.
                  1. Flooding
                    Flooding 20 December 2012 18: 28
                    0
                    Quote: marshes
                    It is quite possibly interesting that the East Germanic tribes are also Slavs. Not long ago I saw a discussion somewhere but forgot on which site.

                    In my statement there was a share of humor. Because Moldova cannot be associated in any way with the Slavs. Nevertheless, Slavic culture had a significant impact on Moldavian.
                    Just according to Beck's theory, based on the place of residence and the similarity of words, it is quite possible to come to this conclusion.
                    And so much in common with the Carpathian Romanians, for example, in dancing and national dress with the Carpathian Ukrainian highlanders!
                    1. marshes
                      marshes 20 December 2012 18: 55
                      0
                      Quote: Flood
                      Just according to Beck's theory, based on the place of residence and the similarity of words, it is quite possible to come to this conclusion

                      Beck is probably right. Pay attention now in Almaty, Yablichnoe is already under 2000 years old, there are many foreigners, they will say that they communicate here in a mixture of Russian Kazakh and English in their countries. smile By the way, the Chinese, much less than in Moscow and Lodnongad, are on business. smile The climate is not the same and officials, though .... but remember.
                    2. Beck
                      Beck 20 December 2012 22: 50
                      +1
                      Quote: Flood
                      Just according to Beck's theory, based on the place of residence and the similarity of words, it is quite possible to come to this conclusion.


                      Respected. This is not just the similarity of words. The similarity of words can be between the Papuan and the Englishman. In our case, these are indigenous Turkic words, the origin of which linguists derive precisely from the rules and features of the construction of Turkic speech.
                      1. Flooding
                        Flooding 21 December 2012 11: 07
                        +1
                        Quote: Beck
                        Respected. This is not just the similarity of words. The similarity of words can be between the Papuan and the Englishman. In our case, these are indigenous Turkic words, the origin of which linguists derive precisely from the rules and features of the construction of Turkic speech.

                        I did not quite correctly use the word "similarity". But if you read my post more carefully, you would catch the main thing instead of finding fault with trifles:
                        in the old Moldavian language was used up to 30% of Slavisms (Slavic words, read Russian, origin).
                        But no one speaks not only of the Slavic origin of Moldavians, but even of distant kinship. Due to the cohabitation of the Walach-Moldavians and the Slavs who inhabited the Moldovan land (including the Romanian part of Moldova) earlier, a mixture of cultures and languages ​​occurred. And there is nothing antihistorical about this. Even on the press of the greatest ruler of Moldova, Stephen III the Great, Russian words were written.
                      2. Beck
                        Beck 21 December 2012 16: 09
                        +1
                        Quote: Flood
                        I didn’t use the word correctly


                        Okay. I have a question for you, you live closer there. Gagauz - Turks. I know. But do not tell if you know where they settled there. From the Turks through the Balkans. From the Huns during the squatting of nations. Or like a splinter of the Khazars or the Turkic Khaganate? If you answer I will be grateful.
                      3. Flooding
                        Flooding 24 December 2012 12: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Beck
                        Gagauz - Turks. I know. But do not tell if you know where they settled there. From the Turks through the Balkans. From the Huns during the squatting of nations. Or like a splinter of the Khazars or the Turkic Khaganate?

                        Beck, the Gagauz people themselves find it difficult to answer this question. Here is what they write about it:
                        The history of the Gagauz people is still poorly understood. The following facts on the history of the people are reliably known to historical Gagauzovedenii. The Gagauzians, as an independent ethnic group, finally formed in the XNUMXth century in the region of northeastern Bulgaria, mainly on the territory of Dobrudja and Deliorman. On the territory of Dobrudzhi in the same XIII century, the Uziialet state formation is known, which most scientists qualify as the first state of the Gagauz people. Only in the eighteenth century. in the Varna region, the allegedly existing Gagauz republic of Wister is mentioned.

                        As you can see, they are not in a hurry to make hasty decisions and put forward unfounded hypotheses.
                      4. Beck
                        Beck 24 December 2012 14: 09
                        -1
                        Quote: Flood
                        Beck, the Gagauz people themselves find it difficult to answer this question. Here is what they write about it:


                        Thanks for the information.

                        Quote: Flood
                        As you can see, they are not in a hurry to make hasty decisions and put forward unfounded hypotheses.


                        Based on your information, the Gagauz people simply do not have additional information.
                        Marek and I didn’t just simply affirm something, but also cited some data to confirm my allegations. And these data are mainly the works of Russian, Soviet, Russian scientists.

                        Thank you again.

                        Quote: Flood
                        Beck, the Gagauz people themselves find it difficult to answer this question. Here is what they write about it:


                        Thank you for your information.

                        Quote: Flood
                        As you can see, they are not in a hurry to make hasty decisions and put forward unfounded hypotheses.


                        Based on the information that you sent me, they simply do not have enough information. But Marek and I, asserting my own, relied on tinder, for the most part, Russian, Soviet, Russian scientists.
            3. ikrut
              ikrut 20 December 2012 19: 25
              +2
              Even if not Slavs, then for a long time they lived side by side and mixed with the Slavs. Interesting film Zadoronov shot "Rurik. Lost reality". Historical. He showed there that Rurik was a Slav and came from the present East German lands. Everything seems to be logical and intelligible. The film is on the Internet. 2 series.
        3. Turkir
          Turkir 4 December 2014 09: 12
          +1
          What modest these Turks were, they had to be painted to the north pole.
          There were not so many Kypchaks.
          When Subedei and Jebe went to the rear of the Polovtsy (Kypchaks) to the North Caucasus through Georgia with three tumens to the Kuban region, the Kypchaks-Kuman-Polovtsy rushed for help to the Russian princes (there were no Ukrainian Fuhrers nearby) in 1223.
          Three princes Mstislav, Udaloy, Kievsky, Chernihiv came to the aid judging by the map from St. Petersburg, to the region of Donetsk. Moreover, the joint army of Russians and Polovtsy was supposedly 80 thousand people, according to Gumilyov
          The battle at Kalka was lost as a result of poor organization and the retreat of the Kuman-Kypchak-Polovtsy directly to the Russian regiments on foot.
          They just crushed them.
          But the map is beautiful, the Turks look and sigh, only it has nothing to do with history.
          How many such cards have I seen from different nations.
          And all as one from the sea to the sea. laughing
      2. Beck
        Beck 20 December 2012 20: 32
        +1
        Quote: Flood
        The fact is that the institution of Cossacks was successfully adopted by Russia. Which used it to create Cossacks in Siberia. Not suggestive?


        Excuse the discounter, but you somehow accent from what you read on the other. Before the creation of the Siberian Cossack army, Russia already had the experience of creating the Donskoy and Tersky - in 1577, the regions of the Cossack troops. Siberian was created in 1582. Ataman Ermak was hired with his squad by the Ural merchants Stroganovs. He crossed the ridge and captured the capital of Khan Kuchum, Kashlyk. There was a recent broadcast on the Russian television channel "365". There Ermak is directly called a Turk in the service of the Stroganovs. The Türks usually gave the name Ermek to the youngest son, as he was fun with the elderly parents. Literal translation Ermek - Fun.

        Quote: Flood
        Of course, who can argue. The Cossack has always stood apart. Since you will not find Lermontov's lines about such a nation or people as a "soldier".


        Well, that you pretend to be a little ?. I clearly wrote that Lermontov does not otdezhdivaet soldiers and Cossacks as Russian. He clearly shares that the soldiers are Russian people, and the Cossacks are not Russian, they are different people.

        Quote: Flood
        I agree. And this word appeared when? True, in the days of the Tatar-Mongolian.


        Batu Khan completed the conquest of Russia in 1242. The Turkic-Arabic dictionary in Egypt was written in 1245. But before that, it took time to compile the dictionary. This is to the fact that among the Türks this word existed before the Batyev invasion. Well, and the institution of Cossacks has existed among the Turks since ancient times, now no historian will establish it. And in Russia the word Cossack was familiar, but perhaps not so widely, even before Batu. Indeed, the Khazars, Pechenegs and Polovtsy lived in the South Russian steppes, and all of them, like the Türks, had a Cossack institution. It's just that the Russians began to use this institute only after the collapse of the Golden Horde, at the end of the 14th century.
        1. MstislavHrabr
          MstislavHrabr 20 December 2012 23: 32
          +4
          Mstislav Vladimirovich the Brave

          Mstislav Vladimirovich the Brave (died 1036), the Old Russian prince Tmutarakan and Chernigov, the son of the Grand Duke of Kiev Vladimir Svyatoslavich and Polotsk Princess Rogneda. Around 988, the father was planted to reign in Tmutarakan. In 1016 he fought with the Khazars, in 1022 he conquered the Kasogs and imposed a tribute to them.(The sons of the Rededi killed by him were married to the daughters of the prince.) In 1023, it also established itself in the Chernigov land. In 1024, brother M.V. of Kiev Prince Yaroslav tried to expel him from Chernigov land, but was defeated. In 1026 M.V. made peace with Yaroslav at Gorodets, according to which the Russian lands located on the left bank of the Dnieper with its center in Chernigov went to his possessions. In 1031 M.V., together with Yaroslav, made a trip to Poland, from where he brought many prisoners. After the death of M.V., his land holdings again became part of the Kiev state. (These are strings from TSB)
          The structure of the Kiev state included only Chernihiv. But where did the Russian people living in the rest of this power go ?! Mstislav had the best squad of that time and she did not go to serve with Yaroslav the Wise ...
        2. Flooding
          Flooding 21 December 2012 11: 01
          +2
          Quote: Beck
          Well, that you pretend to be a little ?. I clearly wrote that Lermontov does not otdezhdivaet soldiers and Cossacks as Russian. He clearly shares that the soldiers are Russian people, and the Cossacks are not Russian, they are different people.

          Quote to the people. He did not identify the Cossacks and the soldiers. This is clear to everyone, like God's day. But where do you find the opposition "Cossacks and Russians" in Lermontov's lines?
          Quote: Beck
          Batu Khan completed the conquest of Russia in 1242. The Turkic-Arabic dictionary in Egypt was written in 1245. But before that, it took time to compile the dictionary. This is to the fact that among the Türks this word existed before the Batyev invasion. Well, and the institution of Cossacks has existed among the Turks since ancient times, now no historian will establish it. And in Russia the word Cossack was familiar, but perhaps not so widely, even before Batu.

          Beck, now you are like a fool. We are talking about the word "Cossack" only in relation to the sub-ethnos inhabiting the lower reaches of the Don. Right? Why should I push (excuse the rudeness) its etymology and linguistic affiliation? I didn't argue on this point.
          BUT with reference to the ancestors of modern Cossacks, this word began to be used most of all later. In any case, if you look for documentary sources, you will come across dating from the type of the 15-16th century.
          That's why I ask you again if this fact leads you to any thoughts. Namely: the 14th-15th centuries are the times when both this and all neighboring territories were subject to the Tatars.
          What were the ancestors of the Cossacks called before the invasion of the Tatars?
          Quote: Beck
          Before the creation of the Siberian Cossack army, Russia already had experience in creating the Don and Tersky - in 1577 the regions of the Cossack troops. Siberian was created in 1582.

          Are you again consciously missing my words past your attention? Or subconsciously? If you wanted to list everyone, you forgot at least the Yaik (Ural) Cossacks.
          But I did not write about that. Try to catch my mind. Russia successfully adopted the so-called Institute of Cossacks, which in your opinion is one of the confirmations of the Turkic origin of the Don Cossacks. Does this mean that in the same way he could be adopted from the Turkic peoples by the prazakaks?
          1. Beck
            Beck 21 December 2012 16: 58
            0
            Quote: Flood
            "Cossacks and Russians" in Lermontov's lines?


            Something went in cycles. I just say that according to the statement of Lermontov does not unite soldiers and Cossacks in one nation. These are Russian soldiers, and these are Cossacks, in the sense that they are not Russian. This suggests that at the time of Lermontov the Cossacks still retained some Asian features.


            Quote: Flood
            What were the ancestors of the Cossacks called before the invasion of the Tatars?


            Maybe I did not emphasize this point in my main comment. Until the 15th century, the nation, the Cossack people as such did not exist. The Cossack Institute was common to different Turks. The Cossacks Institute existed among the Pechenegs, the Polovtsians, the Khazars, the Naiman, the Dulats, the Kipchaks, and the Argyns. Just a group of young Kypchaks or young Argyns left the villages in the search for a free life and adventure, and lived separately for a year or two. Engaged in hunting, raids on adjacent territories. Having shown, they returned to their villages, but not all at once. Someone left, others came. Those who showed began to lead a normal life in the village. As a good example. Russian scientist goes on a business trip for the Arctic Circle. During the trip, he becomes a polar explorer. He returns, another scientist takes his place and also becomes a polar explorer. Therefore, Cossacks existed where various Turkic tribes lived. And in Xinjiang, and on the Irtysh, And in the foothills of the Caucasus, and in the Don, and in the Aral Sea region, and on the Dnieper. But in the 15th century, thanks to the Sultans Janibek and Girey, the collective, common, temporary name Cossacks took as an ethnonym all tribes of the steppes of Kazakhstan. And the Russian people who fled to the Don most likely joined the Nogai Cossacks and, as Slavic blood prevailed, eventually turned into a Russian subethnos. Just as if for some reason the Georgians fled en masse across the Caucasus ridge, they could join the Chutur-Cossacks of the Caucasian Turks.

            Quote: Flood
            Does this mean that in the same way he could be adopted from the Turkic peoples by the prazakaks?

            If you take into account my upper paragraph, then there can be no pra-cossacks. We can talk about when the institution of Cossacks arose, but this is a dark question.

            Somehow, if you and I were not at all confused.
        3. Flooding
          Flooding 21 December 2012 11: 16
          +1
          Quote: Beck
          Ataman Ermak was hired with his squad by the Ural merchants Stroganovs. He crossed the ridge and captured the capital of Khan Kuchum, Kashlyk. There was a recent broadcast on the Russian television channel "365". There Ermak is directly called a Turk in the service of the Stroganovs. The Türks usually gave the name Ermek to the youngest son, as he was fun with the elderly parents. Literal translation Ermek - Fun.

          Are other versions rejected? What did not suit you with the Arkhangelsk origin? Oh, I guess. Well, the names of Yermolai, Yeremey, what is worse than Yermek?
          1. Beck
            Beck 21 December 2012 16: 18
            +1
            Quote: Flood
            Are other versions rejected?


            Not rejected. Well. if there was Ermolai, then why should he now remake him into Ermak. That Ermak was a tbrok I had only my own suspicions. But my suspicions turned into confidence after watching the Russian historical channel "365", where the presenters, without accusations, call him a Turk. There, the presenters said, I don't know on what grounds, that Ermak himself was from a noble family of Tyumen, but for some reason fled from there. He went to the Cossacks. Then, with the help of the Stroganovs, he returned, in addition to the main task, having personal revenge. Something like that. Where did the presenters get this information, I do not know.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 24 December 2012 12: 57
              +3
              Quote: Beck
              if there was Yermolai then why should he redo it now in Yermak.

              Firstly, not now. About Ermak was written at the end of the 16th and 17th centuries.
              But where did Timofeev's middle name come from? I do not touch upon the mention of his Christian name Basil. It is possible that this name is received at baptism. But then why do all sources persistently call him Ermak Timofeev?
              Vyacheslav Sofronov writes that he could get a middle name by the name of the godfather.
              But such an interpretation makes me personally doubtful. Why, in this case, the middle name received at baptism was not used with the name Vasily?
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 24 December 2012 13: 26
                +1
                It is Yermak Timofeevich who is called the Cossack chieftain who participated in the Livonian War in battles against the troops of the Polish king Stefan Batory.
                It is mentioned in letters of Pan Stravinsky and Pan Golovchinsky (summer of 1581).

                Of course, to the heyday of Yermak's fame, it would be very "inconvenient" to rename him Vasily Timofeevich. Although, as Ruslan Skrynnikov assures, chroniclers began to write about his deeds much later, 40-50 years after his campaign.
                But by that time Ermak had already taken a firm place in the Cossack tales, from which the chroniclers actually recorded the acts of Ermak.

                But in 1581. under Mogilev it was not yet such a big name. And the Poles write "Ermak Timofeevich, Ottoman Cossack" ...
                Here, in my opinion, there is something to think about for lighter heads than ours. So let's not chop off the shoulder.
                1. Beck
                  Beck 24 December 2012 14: 29
                  -1
                  Quote: Flood
                  It is Yermak Timofeevich who is called the Cossack chieftain who participated in the Livonian War in battles against the troops of the Polish king Stefan Batory.


                  The fact that Yermak took part in the Livonian War is obvious. Considering the scrupulousness of the Russian spirit, it is still not clear why Ermolai should be converted into Basurmanskoe Ermak. And again. The Türks did not pronounce the patronymic. Only if it was necessary to distinguish from another, for example, Bulat Temir uly - that is, Bulat is the son of Temir. And if further then it was necessary to name the name of the grandfather, great-grandfather, etc. In the Russian mentality, in order to show respect, it was necessary to add a patronymic to the name. So they added the patronymic Timoveevich to the Basurmanskiy Yermak. If you look directly, then not to the village, not to the city.

                  I don't remember now. But somehow they showed on the "TV box" a picture of a Russian artist, it seems, the 18-19 centuries. There Yermak is shown in thought, sitting at the table before the campaign. So there is no Russian clothes on him, all clothes are of the oriental type.

                  Better yet. I don't know about you in Moldova, but our TV channels have their own sites. So on the website of the Russian historical television channel "365" you need to find an archive of programs and watch a program about Yermak. Where the Russian leaders are looking for the grave of Yermak, near Tyumen and directly call Yermak a Turk, citing their own justifications.
                2. Flooding
                  Flooding 24 December 2012 15: 21
                  +2
                  Quote: Beck
                  The fact that Yermak participated in the Livonian War is a sign of business. Given the scrupulousness of the Russian spirit, it is still unclear why Yermolaya should be remade into the Basurm Ermak.

                  And again, it was not customary in those days to reshape the Orthodox names in a "non-Sermen" way.
                  I tend to believe that there are reasons for different versions. And several places of Yermak's birth have been "found". It would be very strange to take the 365 theory on faith simply because it is more to our liking. As well as vice versa.
                3. Beck
                  Beck 24 December 2012 17: 38
                  0
                  Quote: Flood
                  it is very strange to take on faith the theory of the "365" channel simply because it is more to their liking


                  She's not like that. All my conscious life, the name Ermak did not fit into Slavic names. That is how it is. From the Slavic side, it is inexplicable. Then a picture of a Russian artist caught my eye. Where on Ermak is not only eastern clothing, but also a forelock from the middle of the crown of the head. And such a forelock is the ancient hairstyle of the Turks even before the Batyev invasion. There were different varieties. Or a forelock on the crown of the head, or a bang on the front of the crown of the head. There were also braids from the temples, and the rest of the head was shaved. But all these were only personal inconsistencies. And the Russian television channel simply confirmed my suspicions, bringing its evidence that I would not have found. And this is the Russian channel that you will not suspect of Russophobia, but there is objectivity.

                  You speak different versions. It is of course, but the most evident is that Ermak was a Turk.

                  Well, probably further there will be a perivanie from empty to empty. If you do not want to admit the Russian historians of the "365" channel, this is your business.
    2. stroporez
      stroporez 7 May 2013 15: 08
      +1
      ...... and drove that day, into the capital city of Kiev, the good KAZAK Ilya Muromets ...... "
  10. Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 21: 48
    0
    1) I have a bunch of pre-revolutionary literature on the Cossacks in my computer. practically all of them were written by the Cossacks and it is stated that the first Cossacks were the steppe-Turks, incl. "kirghiz-kaisaks". Too lazy to remake pdf files into a format from which you can copy-paste without problems, so I just suggest downloading pre-revolutionary books on the Cossacks from the first available resource. Well, and the fact that now the Cossacks completely deny their connection with the Turks is understandable. after the 1920s, consider that there was a gap in historical memory. modern Cossacks do not know nifig, they poke around more and show off, like at carnivals. One of them is a Cossack, like a ballerina of me I judge on TV and on the local Astana Cossacks. Although their breasts notably shine from cool medals :)))) Lenin pounded the Cossacks specifically, and World War II destroyed the Cossacks as a class completely.
    2) As for religion. Again, in the lists of Cossack troops (usually I look at the VHF, OKV and SKV), the religious composition of the Cossacks is always written. The vast majority are ordinary Orthodox, and Old Believers are few. Muslims among the Cossacks and even more. There were always a lot of Old Believers (for example, in the KZ), but they tried to stay away from everyone, including and from the Cossacks.
    3) About the language. Initially, the Tsar communicated with the Cossacks through the Ambassadorial Prikaz (the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, to put it simply), and the Turkic names of the translators (!) Who communicated between Moscow and the Cossacks are mentioned. Then, under the Romanovs (under Catherine), a decree was issued, according to which in order to become a Cossack it was necessary to know the Russian language. Essno, and office work with Russia was now in Russian. However, in fact, according to the recollections of contemporaries, the Cossacks preferred to speak "in Tatar" ("in Kyrgyz") not at work, but at home, whether in the Caucasus, on the Don, or on the border with the Kazakhs. Almost all contemporaries called the Türkic speech "home language".
    Here are some examples:
    "The Semipalatinsk regional administration notes" ... Cossacks ... speak not only with the Kyrgyz, which would be quite understandable, but also among themselves in Kyrgyz ... Small children of the Cossacks - and they speak Kyrgyz. "
    F. Usov wrote: "... Almost all the Cossacks of the Gorky and Irtysh lines often use the Kyrgyz language in conversation ..."
    G. Potanin in "Notes on the Siberian Cossack Host": "The Kyrgyz language is not only not neglected, but is considered spoken"; "... and the local Cossacks (it is said about the Koryakovskaya stanitsa) ... in their home life they prefer the Kyrgyz language to their ..."
    In another article, he writes: “... Almost the entire population speaks the Kyrgyz language ... Not only simple Cossacks, but also young Cossacks chat here in Kyrgyz. You will hear the Kyrgyz language everywhere: in quiet conversations about haymaking rations, which are conducted among themselves by Cossacks sitting on the rubble; in the conversation of coachmen clapping at the station near the crew of a passing official; sometimes even in court, because between the local Cossacks there are people who more thoroughly tell the case in Kyrgyz than in Russian. They tell jokes about the village bosses who, in their reports, stray from the Russian language and end the report in Kyrgyz. In the village of Belokamennaya there was one centurion who knew the Kyrgyz language and Kyrgyz customs in such perfection that the Kyrgyz came to sue her; her Kirghiz called "Biy-Baibiche", i.e. Madam Judge. ”
    Grebenshchikov, "Ubinsky Cossacks": "Having excellent command of the Kyrgyz language, they often speak Kyrgyz among themselves."
    "URAL COSSACKS ON THE RIVER SURA" (The story of captain Vladimir Aleksandrovich Timofeev): "They (the Cossacks - my comment) were fussing, it was clear that they were preparing for something, but secretly from me, since when I approached they began to talk among themselves on Kyrgyz ".
    And I just pulled it from an Internet in 5 minutes.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 21 December 2012 11: 49
      +2
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      I have a bunch of pre-revolutionary literature on the Cossacks in my computer. practically all of them were written by the Cossacks and it is stated that the first Cossacks were the steppe-Turks, incl. "kirghiz-kaisaks". Too lazy to remake pdf files into a format from which you can copy-paste without problems, so I just suggest downloading pre-revolutionary books on the Cossacks from the first available resource. Well, and the fact that now the Cossacks completely deny their connection with the Turks is understandable. after the 1920s, consider that there was a gap in historical memory. modern Cossacks do not know nifig, they poke around more and show off, like at carnivals.

      Do a favor - do not be lazy to get acquainted with what is gathering dust on your computer. Somehow, I also pumped up a bunch of books about the Cossacks, though I managed to find djvu (joking, my friend), but read carefully - my hands did not reach. And the son took them and removed them. Maybe you will throw a couple of quotes excerpts confirming your version?
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      About religion. Again, in the lists of Cossack troops (usually I look at the VHF, OKV and SKV), the religious composition of the Cossacks is always written. The vast majority are ordinary Orthodox, and Old Believers are few.

      Apparently, they were not looking there. I will not linger on the Ural, Siberian, Orenburg or Transbaikal Cossacks. They were ardent supporters of ancient Orthodoxy and greeted all those who fled from oppression.
      But since we are talking about Don, please be kind - read:
      - 1687 Ataman Frol Minaev was overthrown in Cherkassk. Don people demand a return to the old rites. Then a punitive expedition led by Prince Golitsyn followed in order to pacify the dissatisfied.
      In the Don, as throughout Russia, there was oppression of the Old Believers. Old Believer churches were closed forcibly. Many Don Cossacks tended to UNINFIDENCE (read about it, if interested).
      Nevertheless (already in 1805), in response to the petitions of the Cherkasy Old Believers, Bishop Arseny of Voronezh and Cherkasy writes:
      “To write about this relationship from me to the lord of the Don army to the chieftain, Lieutenant General and Cavalier Matthew Ivanovich Platov.
      As the Donskoy’s troops, all the inhabitants live on special rights and most of them are in the military service, and the city of Cherkassk is transferred to another place - whether there will be any harassment in this part of their rights and in the state insanity service - if permitted their army to be an Old Believer temple "

      From Platov's answer:
      "... On top of all that, the government, regarding the demand of His Grace Methodius Bishop of Voronezh and Cherkassy, ​​based on the Decree of the Governing Synod in 796, issued strict instructions to the military department not to build up anywhere, in any army, villages, forbidden chapels and so that no one for the future, he did not dare to enter with his requests to the Right Reverend ... "

      I will say even more - the first Cossack army in the Kuban was organized from the Cossacks of the Old Believers who left the Don in the 1690s.
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 21 December 2012 12: 01
        +3
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        "The Semipalatinsk regional administration notes" ... Cossacks ... speak not only with the Kyrgyz, which would be quite understandable, but also among themselves in Kyrgyz ... Small children of the Cossacks - and they speak Kyrgyz. "
        F. Usov wrote: "... Almost all the Cossacks of the Gorky and Irtysh lines often use the Kyrgyz language in conversation ..."
        G. Potanin in "Notes on the Siberian Cossack Host": "The Kyrgyz language is not only not neglected, but is considered spoken"; "... and the local Cossacks (it is said about the Koryakovskaya stanitsa) ... in their home life they prefer the Kyrgyz language to their ..."

        And here we come to the most interesting.
        The fact is that the ethnic composition of the Cossacks, settled from the Urals and to the Far East, was much more ethnically homogeneous than that of the same Don Cossacks. Almost 9/10 of the Siberian Cossacks were Russians. You can verify this yourself by reading the appropriate materials.
        This once again emphasizes that the Cossacks language was influenced primarily by the environment, the surrounding peoples and nationalities. They were largely torn off from the Russians.
        You just have to either admit that the facts are far-fetched or put an end to the Turkic theory of the origin of the Cossacks.
        I repeat: in the theory of the origin of the Cossacks, which you adhere to, there are a lot of weak points. Both you and Beck are largely unfounded. Save up material instead of referring to Senkevich and TV channel "365".
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 12: 46
          0
          Everything is correct. The overwhelming majority of the mentioned Cossack troops already consisted of Russians. I do not argue with this, moreover, in another topic I wrote about it, and here I wrote that the bulk of these Cossacks were Orthodox, and not Muslims or Old Believers. I emphasized that even in the 19th century, the Turkic language was the main language of these Cossacks in everyday life, and stressed that if even in a later time, 100% Slavic Cossacks were subjected to a giant Turkic influence, that they even spoke Turkic at home, then what we can talk about the time of the birth of the so-called. "Russian" Cossacks on the Dnieper and Don among the Turkic khanates! This sub-ethnos is closer to the Turks by all ethno-cultural characteristics than to the Slavs, even in the days of the emerging Russian Empire. What is Slavic in them? Religion? Well, Duc Yakuts are also Orthodox. As well as the Chuvash. Well, and the fact that the Cumans and even Kazakhs in the 19th century massively converted to Orthodoxy is also no secret (the Kyrgyz branch of the ROC asserted that up to half a million Kazakhs were baptized in the period from the middle of the 19th century to the beginning of the 20th).
          What else is Slavic in their culture? What began to plow? So it happened recently. And before that, the Cossacks lived exclusively by cattle breeding. I will not say any more that the agriculture of the "Kirghiz-Kaisaks" was also known, and wheat and millet were sown in minimal volumes in the Kazakh steppe.
          Even 100% Russians, becoming Cossacks, quickly turned into a Turkic-speaking ethnos. And this was happening everywhere. Even the Don Cossacks of the 20th century - it would seem that they are much more Russian than the other Cossacks - and those at Sholokhov bake "Bursaks" incomprehensible to the Russian people and ride "large" horses. Where did the "Russian" Don Cossack have baked baursaks at home - the favorite pastries of distant Kazakhs? Why is this undersized horse at the Russian bottom - "big", which is understandable to any Kazakh, but not to a Russian?
          What facts do you propose to admit? That the Cossacks were influenced by the Türks? Well, so who argues with this, except for the Russians?
          Or the fact that the Cossacks of the dugout dug-considered a sign of non-Turkic? And that dugouts are a sign of Slavism? Typical Slavic housing?
          Tried to convince the Kazakhs that the Cossacks have a unique Cossack Circle? Well, he existed among the Kazakhs until the revolution.
          Don't like the mention of Senkevich? He is certainly politically engaged, but he is an excellent connoisseur of Polish, Ukrainian, "Tatar" life. Are you sure you read it? Have you noticed how he describes in detail even the smallest ethnocultural features? Sholokhov is also not a historian, but no one doubts him, as an expert on the Cossack culture of the 20th century. Tolstoy is also a writer, not a historian. But we get a lot from him about that era.
          The position of the Russians on the origin of the Cossacks is simple: "It cannot be!" Because the Russians, who have not seen real Cossacks for almost a hundred years, are accustomed to presenting them as a swaggering Grigory Melentiev or a Kuban tractor driver. Naturally, these video images do not contain anything distinctly Turkic. For a long time I could not believe that during the Second World War hundreds of thousands of Soviet people served in the Wehrmacht. I was firmly convinced that these were "attempts to rewrite history" and that such cases were isolated. We were brought up like that - at school, in cinemas, on holidays - a Soviet soldier cannot be a traitor. It was only recently that I realized the magnitude of this issue.
          And then they start to tell the Russians that Melentyev is Kazakh! Of course, it will seem nonsense. What does our Cossack and narrow-eyed "Kirghiz" have to do with it? Well, everything else is swept aside according to the principle: "This cannot be!" This is the main reason.
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 21 December 2012 14: 13
            +2
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Don't like the mention of Senkevich? He is certainly politically engaged, but he is an excellent connoisseur of Polish, Ukrainian, "Tatar" life. Are you sure you read it?

            My dear, still in deep adolescence. And I’m not even ashamed of the fact that I am not drawn to re-read it.
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            What facts do you propose to admit? That the Cossacks were influenced by the Türks? Well, so who argues with this, except for the Russians?
            Or the fact that the Cossacks of the dugout dug-considered a sign of non-Turkic? And that dugouts are a sign of Slavism? Typical Slavic housing?

            I wrote about the Don people, not the Cossacks (see my post above). And he did not deny the influence of Turkic culture on the culture of the Don Cossacks. As well as the influence of the culture of the Caucasian highlanders on the Kuban, Terek Cossacks. BUT nothing more! You claim direct origin and heritage. Give me at least one word that says otherwise. And re-read your statements at the same time.
            By the way to your phrase:
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            About the language. Initially, the Tsar communicated with the Cossacks through the Ambassadorial order (the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, in other words), and the Turkic names of translators (!) Are mentioned, who communicated between Moscow and the Cossacks. Then, under the Romanovs (under Catherine), a decree was issued according to which in order to become a Cossack it was necessary to know the Russian language.

            Here is a curious fact about the dialect of the Kuban Cossacks:
            It should be added that the performers of the Black Sea songs, as a rule, “balakyut” in Kuban, many of them know and love the poems of T.G. Shevchenko, but they treat the modern Ukrainian colloquial and literary language quite restrained and often admit that many of his words are not understood. Moreover, some older performers say that “now the Ukrainian language has become such, as it used to be with T.G. Shevchenko. Todi vin bouv is “right”, and teper yogo is so pyrkierkerkaly in a western way, sho wines already becoming a stranger and that is understandable ”
          2. Flooding
            Flooding 21 December 2012 14: 56
            +2
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            All right. The vast majority of the mentioned Cossack troops already consisted of Russians. I do not argue with this, moreover, I wrote about it in another topic, and here I wrote that the bulk of these Cossacks were Orthodox, and not Muslims or Old Believers.

            Then why write about the fact that the Siberian Cossacks spoke almost exclusively in Tatar or Kyrgyz, since you use this fact in the form of evidence of their origin?
            You contradict yourself and do not notice that.
            My dear, the Old Believers are the most genuine Orthodox. This is what they are called - THE OLD Orthodox. And even more real, because they adhere to the faith of their great-grandfathers, nor accepting Nikon's reforms.
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Even 100% Russians, becoming Cossacks, quickly turned into a Turkic-speaking ethnos. And this was happening everywhere. Even the Don Cossacks of the 20th century - it would seem that they are much more Russian than the other Cossacks - and those at Sholokhov bake "Bursaks" incomprehensible to the Russian people and ride "large" horses. Where did the "Russian" Don Cossack have baked baursaks at home - the favorite pastries of distant Kazakhs? Why is this undersized horse at the Russian bottom - "big", which is understandable to any Kazakh, but not to a Russian?

            It turns out that in order to become a 100% Tatar, it is enough for a Russian person to bake a Tatar dish and name his horse in Tatar?
            Sorry, but this is nonsense.
            In Russian sources of thoroughbred racehorses of eastern blood they are often called ARGAMAKI (from Tatar). But did the princes seated on the argamaks become a Turkic-speaking ethnic group?
            1. Turkir
              Turkir 4 December 2014 09: 28
              +1
              These gentlemen do not suffer from logic.
              A story for them, like an arba, wherever I want, I’m turning it over there.
              The most important thing is not, scientific thinking, it is necessary to train it for years.
              Grab quotes from the same gentleman who is not related to history and sprinkle them left and right. Simply and easily. There are plenty of them now.
              It is worse when proven gentlemen are engaged in this, as much as Doctor of History. For example Danilevsky, an ethnos of the Babylonian captivity, which is often in demand on the site, do not buy the name: "Russian Planet". The planet is rather anti-Russian.
              And if you want to convince these gentlemen-historians with logic, then in vain, they do not understand what it is.
              Scientific facts, logic, they are replaced by faith.
    2. Ascetic
      Ascetic 21 December 2012 14: 16
      +3
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      that now the Cossacks completely deny their connection with the Turks - it is understandable. after the 1920s, consider there was a gap in historical memory.


      Opponents of our country in the wars of the XIX - early XX centuries. often all Russians were identified with Cossacks. In the twentieth century. attempts were made to investigate their origin according to the peculiarities of the lexicon, to customs - for example, the Cossacks were reduced to the type of troops, light cavalry, whence it was concluded that it originates from the Tatars. Theories appeared "a separate Cossack nation". And the Oxford Encyclopedia defines:
      "Ethno-class groups consisting of Russian and some other peoples of Russia; descendants of people who fled from Poland and Muscovy because of religious persecution, as well as peasants who evaded feudal taxes and duties"
      ... The very word "Cossacks" is recognized as Turkic and is translated as "adventurers" or "rebels"

      , among the Cossacks there is their own definition: "The Cossacks are a brotherhood of people united by a special state of mind and consciousness, morality and morality"
  • ikrut
    ikrut 20 December 2012 18: 40
    +4
    The imperial Russian state created, first of all, an imperial, Russian self-awareness, and then "blood". This is what the Empire was strong. Not genetic code. I myself am Russian and have known my ancestry since the 17th century. But it does not bother me at all, but, on the contrary, admires, arouses respect and pride for our ancestors, who managed to preserve the Empire longer than other peoples. And mainly precisely because it was based not on anthropology, but on self-awareness, self-identification of its citizen and subject.
    1. marshes
      marshes 20 December 2012 19: 12
      0
      Quote: ikrut
      . I myself am Russian and have known my pedigree since the 17th century.

      This is good, that means you have not been drained by the noblemen.
      Here is an interesting surname of the Biryukovs, it turns out that they are the descendants of Biryuk Khan, or lackeys. They told about "MIR".
      here's an interesting one.
      Andrei Yuryevich Bogolyubsky (d. June 29, 1174) - Prince Vyshgorodsky (1149, 1155), Dorogobuzhsky (1150–1151), Ryazan (1153), Grand Prince Vladimir (1157–1174). The son of Yuri Vladimirovich (Dolgoruky) and the Polovtsian princess, daughter of Khan Aepa Osenevich.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 14: 05
    0
    I completely agree with everything. The only thing that always confused me was the cry of "hurray". It seems that everything is true within the meaning - "hit! Urine!" But it seems to me that "hurray" could have come from another quite widespread battle cry of the steppe people "aruakh!" As a Kazakh, you know what this word means, and you know that the Kazakhs used this cry along with the generic ones. In a horse attack, a drawn-out cry "aruaaaaaah" sounds like ... "Uraaaaa!" Try to shout this word, and even imagine that your comrades are also shouting this cry at the top of their lungs. It is quite possible that the Slavs took over this cry as they heard it - "hurray." And from there it already migrated to European languages ​​- "Hurra!" and other options.
    Or maybe the Russians have mixed both calls - "ur!" and "aruach!"
    1. Oidsoldier
      Oidsoldier 20 December 2012 15: 08
      +1
      Maybe not entirely scientific, but for myself I saw the explanation of the appearance of the cry "Hurray" in a film (I do not remember the name) of the obscurant time, when the Russian people were driving the Poles, they shouted "FOR RUSSIA", and sounded - "URA".
  • ikrut
    ikrut 20 December 2012 18: 34
    +2
    Beck... You "+" for the comment. Very sensible. I think no one should be offended here. By the way, "kurenem" was the name of a combat unit in Petliura's army in Ukraine at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. Something like a battalion or regiment. As a tribute to an old tradition. What is funny, there was even a Jewish (called "zhi..dovsky") kurin.
  • ikrut
    ikrut 20 December 2012 18: 26
    +1
    This, by the way, is not the Girei that later settled in Crimea?
    1. Beck
      Beck 20 December 2012 21: 57
      -1
      Quote: ikrut
      This, by the way, is not the Girei that later settled in Crimea?


      No. The kettlebell of the Kazakh steppe of 1459 has nothing to do with the Crimean kettlebell. Just the names are the same. For example, Catherine 2 the Great and Catherine de Medici.
  • skullcap
    skullcap 21 December 2012 16: 02
    +1
    Beck (1) Yesterday, 13: 30
    The word ҚАЗАҚ of Turkic origin ...
    -------------------------------------------
    Is it indisputable how you serve? There are other versions of the origin of the word.
    For example, purely Slavic words: FAIRY TALE, FAIRHOOD, FAIRDAY, FAIRY TALE, TELL, SEE, LOOKUP, FAULT - the source of all diversity is the ancient Slavic syllable "KAZ", which means sending a message orally or in print, as well as in the form of an image, a process.
    Thus, “kazakovat” - show, demonstrate the best military qualities: courage, fearlessness, strength and skill, which is recorded in many ancient records of Russian epics and comments to them, as well as the word “Cossack”, by the way.
    I think this version has the right to life.
    1. Beck
      Beck 21 December 2012 17: 52
      +2
      Quote: kosopuz
      The word ҚАЗАҚ of Turkic origin ...------------------------------------------- Is it indisputable how you serve?


      This is not me serving. I am an older person, so I can’t give links. Since what I have in mind, I took not from the links, but that when I read and of course I remember all the authors and I can not indicate the pages of their works.

      But, if you poke your head in the theory of linguistics and linguistics, then you will definitely find that words with two uvular Қ at the ends, for example ҚazaҚ, are the rule for constructing Turkic speech and not Slavic.
  • Forest
    Forest 20 December 2012 14: 24
    +1
    Orthodox Cossacks associated with the Circassians (Muslims) with white thread. The article is half-truth - half a lie.
  • baltika-18
    baltika-18 20 December 2012 14: 37
    +2
    I don't belong to such articles at all. The author simply compiled a number of publications, articles into a single whole. At the same time, without even bothering to decide on the main idea that I wanted to convey to the reader. Publication for the sake of publication. Or, as an option, the revision of any article. , with a pass through the program "Advego Plagiatus" (in Latin, reluctance to type, whoever is familiar with this will understand).
  • plebs
    plebs 20 December 2012 14: 57
    +2
    Yes, the combat value of the Cossack units is shown by the famous raid of Mamontov. The commander of the Caucasian Volunteer Army at the time of the raid, Lieutenant General Wrangel, Pyotr Nikolaevich wrote about Mamontov’s raid [4]:
    “The name of General Mamontov was on everyone's lips. The Don military circle solemnly honored him, the newspapers were filled with the details of the raid.
    I considered the actions of General Mamontov not only unsuccessful, but clearly criminal. Having penetrated the rear of the enemy, having in his hands a large mass of beautiful cavalry, he not only did not use the advantages of his position, but clearly avoided the battle, constantly avoiding collisions.
    General Mamontov's regiments returned encumbered with huge booty in the form of herds of pedigree cattle, wagons of manufactures and groceries, table and church silver. Coming to the front of our units, General Mamontov sent his greetings to the "native Don" by radio and said that he was carrying "Quiet Don" and "relatives and friends ... rich gifts." Then there was a list of "gifts", including church utensils and vestments. This radio telegram was received by all radio stations. She could not but be known to the headquarters of the Commander-in-Chief. "The Cossacks robbed everything that caught their eye, did not hesitate to rip off even churches.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 14: 57
    0
    In general, it would be easier for Russians if they still had a generic division, as among Asians (Turks, Mongols, Koreans, Japanese, Afghans). Then there would be fewer problems in its history.
    Vasya Ivanov would say, I am from the Drevlyan family, a subgenus of Vasilkovsky. My ancestors fought there, in such and such a chronicle it is written about my family. The epic "Mikhailo the Hero and the War with the Pechenegs" mentions the name of my distant ancestor Semyon Kozhevnik, who commanded the Drevlyan regiment ...
    And when there is no division into genders, then it is already difficult to imagine the history of your people clearly. Even the Germans and those know who from which land came from them, and therefore the history of their people can be clearly perceived several centuries ago. And not abstractly "the Russians fought against the Mongols." At the same time, of course, Vasya Ivanov has a misunderstanding, when it suddenly turns out that not all yoghurts are the same, that some "Mongols" were fighting on the side of Dmitry Donskoy or Alexander Nevsky, and some seemingly native Russians were generally on the side of foreigners , even during the Kulikovo battle. For so many years this topic has been simplified that now it is necessary for several generations to digest the information.
    Wake up a drunk Kazakh or Buryat at night and ask who his ancestors are - he will tell you a story of his kind since the invention of the wheel. In some places, kanesh, lies or confuses, then on the whole he will more or less tell that later, rechecking in historical sources, you will be surprised at the concept of "people's memory".
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 20 December 2012 16: 53
      +3
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      In general, it would be easier for Russians if they still had a generic division, as among Asians (Turks, Mongols, Koreans, Japanese, Afghans). Then there would be fewer problems in its history.
      Vasya Ivanov would say, I am from the Drevlyan family, a subgenus of Vasilkovsky. My ancestors fought there, in such and such a chronicle it is written about my family. The epic "Mikhailo the Hero and the War with the Pechenegs" mentions the name of my distant ancestor Semyon Kozhevnik, who commanded the Drevlyan regiment ...


      You did not have the thought that because Russia has become what it is, that they have not preserved the "tribal division, like among the Asians." By the way, how about the Chinese with this question?
      1. marshes
        marshes 20 December 2012 18: 03
        0
        Quote: Flood
        "generic division, like the Asians

        You know the funniest thing is that I am a mestizo, my mother is Mari’s father, Kazakh, but by nature I’m Dulat and I will stay! smile In Shezhere, the birth book, I entered. Moreover, my father is the eldest in the family, Kuntu, I have sons and my elder brother has four daughters. My wife is German smile And the most interesting thing is that I took a walk this year at seven weddings, where cousins, second cousins, sisters, nieces, nephews, granddaughters and grandchildren went out, married representatives of other clans and zhuzes. smile Simply, you can’t marry relatives to the SEVENTH tribe, and every Kakhakh should know his Shehere.
        Many resettled in Kazakhstan have big problems with genetic diseases, even with the psyche.
    2. ikrut
      ikrut 20 December 2012 18: 52
      +6
      Paradoxically, this is not only the weakness, but also the strength of Russia. The Empire is OVER national. That is why she was able to "absorb" into herself both Kazakhs and Kyrgyz and others, "burdened" with such "historical memory. Such" memory "is not only constructive. It also separates." I am from the Drevlyans - why should I fight for Vyatichi? ” the strength of the people is in the memory of COMMON great victories and achievements, and not family tales since the "invention of the wheel".
      Although, I agree, the latter is also not useless.
      1. marshes
        marshes 20 December 2012 19: 14
        0
        Quote: ikrut

        Paradoxically, this is not only the weakness, but also the strength of Russia. The Empire is OVER national. That is why she was able to "absorb" both Kazakhs and Kyrgyz

        But at the expense of the Kyrgyz, they later joined. smile
        1. ikrut
          ikrut 20 December 2012 19: 30
          +3
          wink I did not talk about chronology. Just the Kyrgyz here already mentioned :)))
          I mean that for some time we were one OVER the people. And it was cool to realize. Like Kipling's "You and I are of the same blood." Despite the fact that I am Russian and you are Kazakh.
      2. Flooding
        Flooding 20 December 2012 19: 17
        +4
        Quote: ikrut
        Paradoxically, this is not only weakness, but also the strength of Russia. Empire is national.

        First, plus, and after reading, I decided that I was in a hurry. The thought is actually seditious. Because the story cannot be new or old or fashionable or obsolete. And the people have the right and the obligation to know their history, regardless of what foreign well-wishers think in this respect.
        It is not worth attributing to the same gentlemen the insight and concern about the fate of the Russian land.
        Russia was supranational only in the sense that Russian people never looked at representatives of small nations as inferior savages. But this attitude does not come from the historical opuses of German explorers, but from the greatness of the Russian soul.
        That is why we must know who we are and where from.
        1. ikrut
          ikrut 20 December 2012 19: 36
          +3
          I wanted to say the same thing. So that you did not hurry. Brevity does not always help clarity.
          That is why he called the thought "seditious", that I consider the loss of Russian history to be a great loss for our people. But at the same time I think that Imperial Russia, after all, was not a prison of peoples, but just helped many of them to revive after the most difficult historical cataclysms, to recover and make its contribution to the common great history. Who knows, maybe one of the "Germans", rewriting history anew, considered the entire past unnecessary and insignificant before modern (them) events. Or maybe they were just mistaken ...
      3. cherkas.oe
        cherkas.oe 24 December 2012 16: 52
        +1
        Quote: ikrut
        Paradoxically, this is not only weakness, but also the strength of Russia.

        Ah well done! Let me kiss you with a plus. Now, if I look at anyone’s face, but not a rookie, eyes gray hair, dark nose, long nose with a hump, narrow eyes and a beard when I grew young, I gave it with a red one, because my ethnic Ukrainian father was black like a raven, and my mother red-haired Pskov, Ancestors of the father (with Suvorov came to the Kuban) from the village of Cherkasy from the village that Prince Svyatoslav gave his illegitimate son Vladimir to feed, there in the cemetery lie 40 percent with my surname. Mom grew up in Altai she is from Stolypin settlers from Pskov province, and I and my son Kuban Cossacks and Russian because nat graphs. not in the passport. Yes, I and my son do not need it because we are Russian and Cossacks I don’t know in which tribe. PS. My son, blue-eyed like his mother, sexually-colored hair was hunchbacked, and in childhood he was ashes and red as a cat and black eyebrows, the hemp left with age, lost red hair, and so on.
  • Black
    Black 20 December 2012 15: 19
    +2
    Cossacks - a unique phenomenon on planet Earth ....
    I did not read further.
    1. xan
      xan 20 December 2012 16: 20
      +2
      Brad.
      About 70% of the territories are also nonsense, when an empire was created, the Cossacks were already a Russian service class. By the way, by the genus Ermak was an Arkhangelsk man. In the most serious periods of Russian history, the Cossacks were sausage, in troubled times, part with enemies, and part with Minin, in Peter's time, the rebellion of Bulavin. Cossacks became very useful to Russia when the Russian bureaucracy put them in harsh conditions and turned them into a service class. All their strength is in constant service, in constant practice, in the uniform composition of the troops, in high mobility and adaptability. For the Russian government, they were the cheapest kind of army, so they were sent on expeditions, they guarded the borders, they were sent all the time to where the nature of the war is unclear, and whether there will be a war at all. Cossacks were almost always the advanced detachment of Russia. If the Cossacks could not cope, then they sent infantry, but then, as Lelik said, it was a matter of technology. And the Cossacks always knew, behind them - all the power of Russia. But what’s interesting, during the revolution there was a lack of hard power, and the Cossacks began to sausage again, partly for the whites, partly for the reds, partly for the Cossack state.
      What can I say for sure that there would have been no Cossacks without Russia, and Russia was and is without Cossacks.
      Words of Napoleon lyrics. Cavalry maiden Durova wrote: “I love cavalry very much ...................... But the basis of Russian power is valiant infantry, musketeers.”
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 16: 54
        +2
        Well, the infantry in the Russian army is the infantry :) The queen of the fields :) But once the infantry was much inferior to the cavalry. The same steppe dwellers utterly defeated all armies of the world from Asia to the "Last Sea" in the 13th century.
        With the improvement of small arms, the value of cavalry decreased to a minimum. Already in the 19th century, infantry infantry outright won against the cavalry. And the appearance of the armored forces put an end to the cavalry as a kind of troops. Everything has its time.
        By the way, I recently discovered with interest that the last "Tatar" cavalry died in 1939 in Poland in battles with the Wehrmacht. The Polish army had Uhlan squadrons from the so-called Tokhtamyshevskys. Polish-Lithuanian Tatars, who served Poland faithfully since the time of the Golden Horde until World War II. Those very famous Polish uhlans who fanatically rushed towards German tanks with a blade in their hands. The cavalry time is up. As well as the time of the Cossacks. Although something may come out of the idea of ​​patrolling the streets, but in reality the experience of the Cossacks can be useful only during the colonization of other planets :)))
        1. stroporez
          stroporez 7 May 2013 15: 44
          0
          I live now on the Don. so what kind of "revival of the Cossacks" can we talk about, when among the "Cossacks" the percentage of "kicked" from service is no lower than among the rest. What is this for "revival" is this !! ???????? I am not saying this out of nowhere .....
  • vostok1982
    vostok1982 20 December 2012 15: 26
    0
    Cossacks certainly played a huge role in the colonization of the steppe, its involvement in the field of civilization. They were at the forefront of the battle between the Wild Field and Russia. Similar formations were found in Hungary and Serbia and Poland, wherever Christian civilization encountered nomad robbers. Naturally, civilization won. Then the Cossacks became serving people, having already turned into a modern understanding of this phenomenon by us. Cossack - a phenomenon rather than ethnic, but geographical. In the modern world, Russian Cossacks are likely to find a new life in connection with the processes of degradation of the former Russian lands, rapidly degenerating into a tribal system - the Caucasus, Central Asia. So I’m sure that the importance of the Cossacks will continuously grow until either Russia regains the Caucasus and Central Asia, or a new civilization is born that can offer an alternative civilization project to the rapidly degrading outskirts of the former Empire.
  • marshes
    marshes 20 December 2012 15: 36
    +1
    And here's another interesting one: Mazhar (Magyar) is a Kazakh tribe of the Argyn tribe. It is a descendant of the Magyars (Hungarians) who wandered in the territory of Northern Kazakhstan. Their ancestors, the Magyars (or Hungarians), migrated to the West at the beginning of the 2006st millennium BC. e. Remaining on the territory of Kazakhstan, the Magyars assimilated with the Kipchaks and other tribes that later formed the Kazakh people. The memory of people has preserved some ancient traditions of the Hungarian people, and in the lexicon of the tribe there are words of Finno-Ugric origin. Hungarian scientists came to the conclusion that majors are direct descendants of their ancestors common with Hungarians. In the work of Andras Biro in 1 and others. [45] haplotypes of 39 majars were collected and analyzed, 2009 of which were carriers of haplogroup G, and a conclusion was made about the likely genetic contacts with Hungarians in the past. In 2, Hungarian geneticists came to the conclusion that the majars are descendants of the Magyars, common with the Hungarians of the ancient Uralic ethnos [XNUMX].
    August 25, 2012 From August 8 to 20, the Kurultai “Mazharstan-Turan” was held in the capital of Hungary, Budapest. In total, representatives of 22 countries took part in the work of a major international event: Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia and other states where representatives of peoples of similar origin live. Our country was represented by musicians, historians and artists, ”the historian and writer Asykbek Omorov told our channel. The vice-speaker of the Hungarian parliament from the ruling party, Shandor Lezak, came to the kurultai in an unusual way - on a bicycle. Representatives of various nations demonstrated the work of their masters of applied art, folk art, and national products from felt. Not far from the capital of Hungary, in the Keskémet district, horse riding masters showed various games on horseback at the racetrack. In Kurultai, it was decided to hold such meetings annually.
    “We were invited by the Hungarian side and all expenses were financed by the inviting party. It is necessary to pay tribute to the Magyars, who, living in the very center of Europe, still have preserved the customs and traditions of the nomadic people. These people make felt better than the Kyrgyz, because they are used in the manufacture of boards. Kurultay showed that we have something to learn from each other, ”said the writer Asylbek Omorov.
  • marshes
    marshes 20 December 2012 16: 48
    +1
    With the help of historians and members of the Siberian Heraldic College, a regional coat of arms of the Omsk Region was developed in the regional ministry of culture. The historical coat of arms of the region of 1825 was taken as the basis. In the updated version, the rider depicted on the red shield will replace the Kazakh armor with a more international version.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 20: 27
      0
      wow! I didn’t know that a military Kazakh was depicted on the old coat of arms of Omsk! I know that on the coat of arms of Petropavlovsk a peaceful Kazakh was depicted leading under the bridle of a camel :)
      1. marshes
        marshes 20 December 2012 20: 31
        0
        Quote: Marek Rozny

        wow! I didn’t know that a military Kazakh was depicted on the old coat of arms of Omsk! I know that on the coat of arms of Petropavlovsk a peaceful Kazakh was depicted leading under the bridle of a camel :)

        Go to the sites of neighbors and read the comments. smile
    2. Shuhrat turani
      Shuhrat turani 20 December 2012 23: 32
      -1
      The white fluffy animals on the coat of arms are Arctic foxes? ambiguously somehow ... (((
      1. stroporez
        stroporez 7 May 2013 15: 47
        0
        and these are specially trained hellish foxes. Nehai the enemy is trembling ..........
  • marshes
    marshes 20 December 2012 17: 27
    0
    And now the story, that would not be with the Kazakhs ....
    He comes to the service, "Russian-speaking", with a broken face. We ask what happened? So and so went from the service received. WHO? Yes here and there. Instantly in the car and .... We checked it out, caught it, we ask why, he was drunk and not so spoke about the Turkic-speaking "former" inhabitants of the Caucasus - we then had a "conversation" with them, they realized their mistakes and said that they would no longer touch those walking in military uniform. smile
  • ddmm09
    ddmm09 20 December 2012 19: 13
    +1
    marshes,
    If it’s not difficult for you, then show at least one Kazakh sword of the Golden Horde era or even earlier. I read your messages and the messages of others about the role of the Kazakhs in various historical events in the fate of Russia. It was not for nothing that I mentioned the sword; the same can be said about other things. The basis of the country's development and prosperity is the economy, I think you will agree with this. Usually, it all comes down in the Tatar-Mongolian era to the fact that someone came to us and imposed his idea. At the same time, the Russian states were suddenly in a vassal position. If the economy of the Russian state made it possible to create cities, weapons, trade with the whole world, etc., then please give us similar prerequisites from the history of the Kazakhs. From scratch, do not create an army from the void, before, and now this is oh what a lot of money it costs. So far, you are buying weapons from us, and not us. I ask you not to be offended, Alma-Ata is my hometown and I am a descendant of the Semirechensky Cossacks. In museums of Almaty in the era of the USSR he visited more than once, he is familiar with the history of the Kazakhs. It's just that I see bad notes in your posts, so I decided to besiege you a little, despite your rank!
    1. romb
      romb 20 December 2012 19: 21
      0
      Nomads were the first to stop practicing direct-shaped blades (swords) - semser. They were extremely uncomfortable with chopping hits from above. Therefore, even one and a half millennia ago, nomads began to use sabers (stub - cut). If you are talking about sabers, then them in museums of the Republic of Kazakhstan - in bulk.
      1. Beck
        Beck 20 December 2012 21: 02
        -3
        Quote: romb
        Nomads were the first to stop practicing direct-shaped blades (swords) - semser.


        I will add. The Turks have been using iron for a long time. In their ancestral home, in the Altai mountains, many minerals lie on the surface. And the Turks used them. And now they continue to use - Ust-Kamenogorsk, Rider. In the 30s of the 20th century, near Biysk, primitive iron-making furnaces were discovered for smelting raw iron, the so-called "blue" blades were made of it. And these ovens are from the 1st century AD. The process has improved from time to time and by the 7th century it became so good that the Türks, with the help of the Altai iron, created the Türkic Khaganate.

        In addition to the semsera, rejected as an uncomfortable weapon for the rider, there were various sabers under the general name - canine. There was also a special weapon, a long, narrow, straight sword - konchar. It was intended to defeat the enemy through the holes of chain mail. There is an assumption that the konchar could be a harbinger of a sword, also originally intended to hit the enemy through slots in armor.
    2. marshes
      marshes 20 December 2012 19: 32
      0
      Quote: ddmm09
      If it’s not difficult for you, then show at least one Kazakh sword of the Golden Horde era or even earlier.

      The Russian word “sablya” probably comes from Hung. szablya from Hung. szabni - "cut, cut" [1]. Perhaps it is an earlier borrowing from the Turkic languages ​​sv. with Tatar "chabu" (the form in the Western dialect is "tsabu") I mow || mowing II 1) chop, chop, chop / chop || deckhouse 2) gouge / gouge (trough, boat) 3) cut, hack (ice, ice hole). In the ancient Turkic language, the word "sapyl" meant "to stick in". (ДТС, p. 485) There is also a common Türkic word sabala, shabala - with a transition of meanings: (cutting and piercing tool)> plow blade> long-handled blade for cleaning the plow> long-handled bucket. In Chuvash - Sabala, Tatar - Shabala, Turkish - Sapylak, Tuvan - Shopulak, Altai - Chabala. There are also versions of the origin from the Turkic sap - "handle, handle" (saply - "having a handle") and sapy - "swing" (ДТС, p.485) In the Circassian language, the word "saber" comes from Kabard-Cherk. sable (Se - "knife", Bla - "hand" - a knife the size of a hand), also in view of this, a connection with the Circassian deity Shible (god of thunder) is visible, that is, the meaning of the word saber can be understood as "a punishing (cutting) hand".
      The saber appeared in the XNUMXth century among the Turkic peoples, as a result of the broadsword modification
      Quote: ddmm09
      . So far, you are buying weapons from us, and not us.

      Yes, the trouble is, we are tied up with this business, with the purchase, money is lost.
      Quote: ddmm09
      I ask you not to be offended, Alma-Ata is my hometown and I am a descendant of the Semirechensky Cossacks. In museums of Almaty in the era of the USSR he visited more than once, he is familiar with the history of the Kazakhs. It's just that I see bad notes in your posts, so I decided to besiege you a little, despite your rank!

      Quote: ddmm09
      I ask you not to be offended, Alma-Ata is my hometown and I am a descendant of the Semirechensky Cossacks. In museums of Almaty in the era of the USSR he visited more than once, he is familiar with the history of the Kazakhs. It's just that I see bad notes in your posts, so I decided to besiege you a little, despite your rank!

      Come on, you were told the same "one-sided" story, that we owe you to the grave, and how the Dzungars were armed with memory it got out of hand.
    3. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 20: 56
      +1
      I did not quite understand the question ... but how does the Kazakh cold weapon differ from other cold weapons of the Golden Horde ??? Kazakhs, like most other Turkic and Mongolian steppes, used almost unified types of cold water. And not with swords in the European sense (initially the Scythians steppes had straight akinaki), but with curved blades for delivering chopping blows. There were also very curved sabers and a cooler with a slight curvature, similar to the later adopted by the Russian Cossack saber.
      As an Almaty resident, you should have been in our city museum, did you really pass by stands with medieval weapons? And you haven't seen the "golden man" either? Although he is not a Turkic, but a Scythian ancestor of the Kazakhs, nevertheless, it is quite possible to appreciate the skill of the nomads of Kazakhstan.
      The Kazakhs (and before them the Huns and other Turkic ancestors) made weapons themselves - from mining ore and forging sabers, up to the manufacture of gunpowder and caramults later. Rich people bought "thieves" lavishly decorated blades of Central Asian and Iranian craftsmen. Let me remind you that Genghis Khan was proud that his family was from blacksmiths, and his real name Temujin (taken from the Chinese chronicles, in this form it is not found either among the Turks or among the Mongols) means Temirshi - "Blacksmith" (Temir - means iron among both the Turks and the Mongols).
      If you are simply embarrassed by the fact that the nomads simply smashed the armies of settled peoples, then I remind you that not only the Turks, but also the Manchus, easily defeated giant China with its cities and the military-industrial complex and ruled this country until the 20th century.
      The Horde not only defeated the Russian principalities, but also European countries, and in the memory of the Iranians, Indians and Arabs they remained as unconditional conquerors. But they do not come up with the idea that the Horde allegedly did not exist or consisted of Indians and Iranians. Yes, and the nomadic Huns at one time took the loot from the defeated Romans.
      The strength of the steppe inhabitants was that the steppe bow was the best small arms before the new era. Plus tough discipline, contempt for the death of one's own and someone else's, constant combat training even in peacetime (hunting for game was carried out according to all military canons - this is a separate and very interesting topic), well, the steppe inhabitants quickly changed tactics depending on the situation - here you can mention and Chinese siege weapons, and irrigation work during the siege of fortresses and even deceit (war dummies, fake camps, and in the battle of Legnica, when the Germans and the Poles were defeated, the Horde set up a smokescreen in which nothing was visible and heartrendingly shouted at -Polish: "Save yourself!", from which the Poles finally could not resist and scrambled). I no longer remember about the favorite tactics of nomads, described since ancient times - shelling from bows, false retreat, subsequent stretching of enemy troops and then the destruction of individual groups of the enemy. All this is well known and described by all neighbors of the steppe inhabitants.
      And if earlier it was possible to make weapons literally "on the knee" in any aul, now yes - serious investments are needed. Even the Chinese are unable to do what the USSR jokingly created some time ago almost 30-40 years ago.
      Well, and about the fact that the KZ purchases weapons in Russia, Russia also purchases naval weapons from Kazakhstan (torpedoes and all kinds of different things). Even from the Kyrgyz, Russia buys torpedoes. And during the Second World War, generally 9 out of 10 bullets were made thanks to Kazakhstan.
      The same Cossacks themselves riveted weapons until the 17-18th century, and did not wait for the Russian Tsar to give. Is not it?
      1. Beck
        Beck 20 December 2012 22: 29
        0
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        I no longer remember my favorite tactic


        I will add one more tactic. I don’t remember exactly what it’s called, but something like - the spring unclenched, "serine sozyldy".

        It was used when the enemy outnumbered. The Türks specifically allowed themselves to be surrounded. At the same time, the front of the enemy was stretched around the circumference and became thinner. Then, with a sharp wedge, from left to right (to make it easier to chop with the right hand), the riders began a circular motion. More and more horsemen were involved in this movement. Finally, the entire army of the Turks came in a circular motion, gradually cutting off the ranks of the opponents, row after row (like a rotating disk of a grass mower). It happened like a flat clock spring. With skillful execution, in a few laps, the enemy was defeated.
        1. cherkas.oe
          cherkas.oe 24 December 2012 17: 46
          +2
          Quote: Beck
          With skillful execution, in a few laps, the enemy was defeated.

          Well, this is if the enemy didn’t do a damn, but watched how they chop it, and if the enemy also chopped and rotated in the opposite direction to chop and stab with his right hand, then after a while in the center of the circle, only corpses remained.
          1. Beck
            Beck 24 December 2012 18: 42
            0
            I described one method of tactics. And like all the tactics of the world, he is successful and not successful. We'll see how it goes. Just such a method was. And here you are to me the consequences. The consequences could be very different.
      2. cherkas.oe
        cherkas.oe 24 December 2012 17: 36
        +1
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Russia buys naval weapons from Kazakhstan (torpedoes and all kinds of things). Even from the Kyrgyz, Russia buys torpedoes. And during the Second World War, generally 9 out of 10 bullets were made thanks to Kazakhstan.
        The same Cossacks themselves riveted weapons until the 17-18th century, and did not wait for the Russian Tsar to give. Is not it?

        My uncle, my mother's mother, Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, built these factories both in Almaty and in Kyrgyzstan, and so, no offense, he told you how difficult it was to build and establish production with the local contingent in those years. He died in the early 90s, he was already 86 years old, and so he stayed with us five years before his death and said: Kazakhs are now different, literate, they work as engineers. So this is my uncle, and specialists like him helped you, now "other" Kazakhs and Kyrgyz, to sell to Russia what she taught you to do, and when it is outdated and Russia does not need it, what and to whom will you sell ? You yourself can't think of a shit. So, with fiery Cossack greetings, gentlemen Kazakhs.
        1. Beck
          Beck 24 December 2012 18: 00
          0
          Quote: cherkas.oe
          You yourself can’t come up with a damn thing. So, with a fiery Cossack greetings, gentlemen of the Kazakhs.


          Everything flows, everything changes. Who denies that Great Russia, despite its colonial beginning, gave the steppe a lot. I joined the world culture through the Russian language. And just the same, bastard Russia, under Peter 1, was introduced to world culture by Germans and Dutch from Kukuy and those whom Peter invited from Europe. And who denies help in developing virgin lands, help in the construction of Temirtau and Kentau. So, after all, wheat, iron, and phosphorus went to the needs of the entire USSR.

          We are building the Eurasian Union and the economic capacities of Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus are needed by the whole Union. But if we don’t need any goods, we will sell Russia to another place. The main thing is that there is something to sell, and the rest depends on bargaining.

          Europe can also tell Russia - In nanotechnology, in electronics, in space telescopes you can’t come up with a damn thing. And they will send greetings with a brush. As easy as you. If such positions as yours would have been with the Russian leadership then the Eurasian Union would not exist in the project.

          So that you flameless greetings. You will be able to think more adequately.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 20 December 2012 19: 30
    +1
    The word "Horde" is neither Turkic nor Mongolian, the most European one - horde-order-order-ordnung. Maybe on the contrary, the Türkic words originated from the Slavic, the Slavic genetic group is MUCH older than the Türkic and Mongolian.
    Take an interest in new archaeological sites Moscow - Voronezh - Southern Urals - Altai - in the ancient settlements, the overwhelming prevalence of Slavic genetics.
    1. marshes
      marshes 20 December 2012 19: 42
      +1
      Quote: Setrac
      The word "Horde" is neither Turkic nor Mongolian, the most European is - horde-order-order-ordnung

      Funny.
      Horde is BET, Kyzyl Horde is the Red Bet. Ak Horde is the White Bet.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 20 December 2012 19: 58
        -1
        That’s exactly what is funny, neither the Türks, nor the Mongols, nor the Tatars have such a word, and therefore the states with the same name could not create Turks and other Mongol-Tatars. But the inhabitants of Kievan Rus called the inhabitants of the Upper Volga, also Slavs, the Zalesskaya Horde. In all languages ​​where this word is (Slavic, Germanic, the same Sweden, Germany, England, etc.) this word refers to the army or navy, means order, or order.
        1. Beck
          Beck 20 December 2012 21: 26
          +2
          Quote: Setrac
          neither the Turks, nor the Mongols, nor the Tatars have such a word,


          Linguistically - horde, horde, these are Turkic words. They mean - the rate, the residence of the khan, the palace. The second meaning is the union of several tribes.

          The Zalesskaya Horde, Belgorod Horde (Budzhatsky, Dobrudzhanskaya, Maly Nogai), Dzhambuylutskaya Horde (Perekop), Edisan Horde (Ochakovskaya) arose during the collapse of the Golden Horde and were perceived as provinces, provinces, and not as ethnic territoriality.

          Your comparison of the Order of the Horde is only a superficial consonance. The word "order" comes from it. Orden or Lat. ordo - "row, order."

          In addition, you are charged with Russianness of everything and everything. And you do not want to recognize the close interweaving of stories and the fate of two neighboring peoples. By your logic, if the Turks could not create the Golden Horde, but the Slavs created, then who fought with whom on the Kulikovo Field? Russians with Russians or what?
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 20 December 2012 22: 18
            -1
            The annals clearly speak with whom they fought on the Kulikovo field, with the Europeans (with all the princes of Ordinsk and with all the power of the Tatars and Polovets. They also understood rati, Besermen and Armenians, Fryazy and Cherkasy and Burtasy, together with it they have the same thoughts and the prince is great Litovskiy Yagailo Olgerdovich with all the power of Lithuania and Lyatskoy, with them the same unity and prince Oleg Ivanovich Ryazan.), that is, the southern and western peoples.
            This is what you perceive, the reality is that it is a European word, among the Russians and Europeans the horde is a horde and not another word, you correctly recalled the order - a military religious organization - and there was such a - Golden Order, including in the Tatra Mountains (Tatra - Tatars), Batukhan we write in Latin BaTuKaH, too obvious for a coincidence. They conquered Ugrov - Hungary, Bulgarov - Bulgaria, Polovtsev - now they are Poles (Catholic). This version has a lot of confirmations, and the mono-Tatars from the east do not stand up to criticism.
            1. Shuhrat turani
              Shuhrat turani 20 December 2012 23: 47
              +3
              Great logic, it means that the Vatican, having united the Polish steppe, invaded Ryazan lands from the east. Then Alexander Nevsky, being in vassal dependence on the Vatican (Batukhan), fought with the Swedes and Germans in the north-west of which the Vatican (Pope) "protected". Tell me, is it an incomplete heresy?
              You probably grew up on a book published under the editorship of RNU "Slavic-Aryan Vedas" or similar nonsense?
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 21 December 2012 00: 08
                -2
                When there is nothing to answer, then arguments like "this is heresy" or "golimotya" appear. What you have composed here does not follow from my words. And it follows from my words that what we call the Mongol-Tatar invasion was in fact an invasion from the west of Christian militarized religious organizations under the auspices of the Pope. Please note that it was at this time that Russia was Christianized - the official version of the adoption of Orthodox Christianity is absolute crap. "
              2. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 00: 15
                0
                Shuhrat, gyyy, I just wanted to ask a similar question, what kind of nonsense is it if we identify the Poles with the Polovtsy, the Tatars with the Tatras, and the Batu Khan with the Vatican :)))))

                Setrak, the Vatican keeps correspondence with the khans of the Golden Horde. Is this the Pope corresponded with himself?
                And in Poland last year the president unveiled a monument to the "Tatar lancers", the descendants of the Polovtsians and other Turkic families of Crimea. It turns out that the Poles invited the Poles who lived in the Crimea? And why were they then Muslims and gutorized in Turkic, if they were originally Poles-Slavs-Christians? Indeed, in Poland they are buried in separate cemeteries. What are these strange "Poles"? :)))
                1. MstislavHrabr
                  MstislavHrabr 21 December 2012 12: 42
                  0
                  Have the important Marek. Many of your arguments make sense ... However: Have you seen the correspondence between the Pope and the Khans !? Are you sure this is not a fake ?! Perhaps you know what language this correspondence was conducted in ?! Can you tell me where the population of the broken "Golden Horde" went ?!
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 13: 11
                    +1
                    Correspondence between the Vatican and the Horde is the most famous layer of medieval documents. Written in Mongolian, Turkic languages. Translation into Latin (and Russian) is known.
                    But who defeated the Golden Horde? The external adversary did not break it. It collapsed due to the ongoing squabbles of the Genghiside establishment. But the population has not gone anywhere. Lived for yourself. While Catherine and Suvorov did not begin to clear the Crimea, the Kuban and Nogai steppes.
                    1. Setrac
                      Setrac 21 December 2012 23: 26
                      +2
                      Be sure, the Vatican will draw such documents as you need, it’s easier than printing amers dollars. Here you can continue where you went: Polovtsy, Bulgars, mysterious Ugrians from the south of the Urals, the Romans in the end (though not in the subject).
                      Here the ancient Roman and ancient Greek literature is also "a whole layer", however, not a single handwritten text older than 9-10 centuries AD EXISTS. Everything that exists is either copies (the originals have not survived), or supposedly originals, but they surfaced for the first time in the 18-19 centuries, why has no one seen them before?
                      You believe Western propaganda, stories written in the West, but they lie about World War II, although the Ochivids are still alive, and you believe the history of Russia written by the Germans for the rulers of the Germans (Romanovs). Here it is the end of the foreign yoke - the overthrow of the pro-Western Romanov dynasty.
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 20: 30
      0
      and how much is the "Russian" haplogroup R1a older than the "Kyrgyz" haplogroup R1a?
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 20 December 2012 22: 34
        0
        Not everything is clear with this genetics.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 00: 17
          +1
          Quote: Setrac
          Slavic genetic group MUCH ancient Türkic and Mongolian


          Quote: Marek Rozny
          and how much is the "Russian" haplogroup R1a older than the "Kyrgyz" haplogroup R1a?


          Quote: Setrac
          Not everything is clear with this genetics.


          Well, what for then it was necessary to write that Slavic genetics is ancient Turkic? wink
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 21 December 2012 23: 13
            0
            And because the ancient Slavic settlements are ANCIENT similar to the Turks.
    3. Horde
      Horde 22 December 2012 13: 00
      +2
      Horde - order
      ORDER- ship system
      ORDER - ORDER
      ORDEN- reward for service, valor, heroism

      -This is from foreign sources and, only in Russian, the meaning of the word ORDA is distorted the most in Russian by ORDA-a promiscuous crowd is NOT THE TRUTH.
  • ddmm09
    ddmm09 20 December 2012 19: 41
    +1
    romb,
    What times is this weapon? Anyway, there must be somewhere mass production of these weapons and there must be source material for their manufacture - iron. Historians are silent about this. Without mass production, you will never achieve high quality workmanship, as it is based on experience and technology accumulated over time. On the whole territory, which is attributed to the Tatar-Mongols in general, there were not many places where traces of the mass production of weapons were found.
    1. marshes
      marshes 20 December 2012 19: 52
      0
      Quote: ddmm09
      What times is this weapon?

      Talgar (Kazakh. Talғar, / tɑlˈɣɑr /) - a city in Kazakhstan, the center of the Talgar district of Almaty region. It is located on the northern slopes of the Zailiysky Alatau, 25 km east of Alma-Ata.
      In written sources, it was first mentioned in 982 in the geographical treatise of an unknown author “Khudud al-Alem” (“The Borders of the World”), under the name Talhiz (Talhiz), according to the author it was located on the border between the Turkic tribes of Chigil and Karluks. [Source not specified 918 days] Analyzing the name “Talkhiz”, scientists came to the conclusion that it was distorted and sounded differently - Talkhir (Talkhir). [Source not specified 918 days] There is also an ancient Turkic interpretation of this word - Dongar, which translates as “High ice mountain ". [Source not decree n 918 days] The generally accepted identity of Talhir with Talgar settlement [1], one of the largest medieval cities of the Ili Valley [2].
      The settlement was located on the right bank of the Talgar River and was a rather large medieval city - its area in the X century was 28 hectares [source not specified 918 days]. The area of ​​the fortified site (a quadrangle with a side length of about 300 m) was approximately 9 ha; there were towers behind the shaft at the corners of the shaft and around the perimeter [2]. In the middle of the southwest and northeast walls there were two entrances connected by a road that divided the city into two approximately equal parts [2]. To the fortified part of the city adjoined other buildings of trade, handicraft and agricultural nature [2].
      According to archaeological excavations, it was possible to establish that the city began to form in the late 2th – 4th centuries, its most intensive development took place in the 6th – 32th centuries, forging, metalworking, pottery, glass, bone carving, and construction were developed in it [75]. According to the uncovered estates, it is clear that they consisted of a residential part (XNUMX-XNUMX or more rooms) and a courtyard. In the living rooms there were tandoor for heating and cooking, including cakes. Most houses had granaries ranging in size from XNUMX to XNUMX m². Inside the courtyards adjacent to the houses, surrounded by stone and adobe fences, pens for sheep and goats, stables, sheds for cows were arranged. Thus, it is known that the inhabitants of Talhir were engaged in cattle breeding and agriculture. The latter prevailed, which is very characteristic of these places. The cultivation of wheat and horticulture — the cultivation of apples, apricots, and grapes — were especially developed. The favorable location on the Silk Road contributed to the development of handicraft and, as a consequence of trade, as evidenced by finds at archaeological sites. The presence of slag and ore in large quantities allows us to conclude about the smelting of iron in the city.
      1. MstislavHrabr
        MstislavHrabr 20 December 2012 23: 58
        +1
        I don’t understand ... Is it that the Turks in the 8th century were mainly farmers and built cities ?!
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 00: 37
          0
          Mstislav, imagine that you are an Afghan. They were born and lived all their life in Afghanistan. You've seen the Russians. They were all soldiers. We arrived by plane, arrived by KAMAZ trucks. The only thing these foreigners are doing is shooting, marching, digging in, chasing the "dissenting" Afghans. Then these Russian boys fly back, new soldiers arrive in their place.
          You, as a logical person, will imagine that all Russians are soldiers, and they only live in war, live on iron beds, dress in poor, albeit strong clothes, live in plain houses "kazarma" and so on.
          Now you also imagine that the Türks are entirely nomads who never knew urban culture, because for centuries the Russian world has encountered only the military side of the Turkic world. There were Turks and settled. Far from Russian lands. Because between the Russian lands and Asian Turkic cities lay and lies the giant Eurasian Steppe, in which the most natural form of economy was distant pastoralism. Those. nomadic lifestyle, which includes seasonal use of certain pastures. Most of the Turks were occupied precisely in this agricultural field. A part of the Türks was engaged in agriculture (other cereals also sowed millet). Did you know that the main part of wheat came to Italy from the Crimea, and the main occupation of the Crimean branch of my genus Argyns was the cultivation of this cereal? It was the cultivation and sale of wheat that gave the main profit to the Crimean Khanate.
          Do you know that all the Russian and Ukrainian cities of Crimea were once quite recently called completely differently: Odessa - Khadzhibey, Simferopol - Akmeshit, Feodosia - Kefe, Sevastopol - Aktiyar, etc.? And the Turks lived there, prayed in mosques and feasted on mutton and pilaf. Crimea has only recently become a "Russian" land. In a word, some Turks were sedentary and were engaged in trade, construction and handicrafts, while others lived in the steppe in the well-known image of an "evil Tatar".

          Have you ever seen a map of the resettlement of the Turks? This is a gigantic territory from Yakutia to Hungary, from the northern spurs of the Urals to Persia and Afghanistan.
    2. romb
      romb 20 December 2012 19: 57
      0
      The nomads used mighty iron ever since Attila.
      For example, the emergence and further expansion of the largest nomadic state - the Turkic Kaganate, was largely a consequence of the massive use of iron for military purposes.
  • Lignitz
    Lignitz 20 December 2012 20: 01
    +1
    An article, to be honest, liquid, designed for readers with a shallow historical horizons. I liked the comments of the brothers of the Kazakhs, on the spot all the arguments of the non-Kazakhs hit! Know ours!
    1. Beck
      Beck 20 December 2012 21: 40
      +1
      All fellow countrymen on this page have a lot of respect. The fact that not a single offensive word was said on the national question to other forum users. Everything is correct and courteous.
  • ddmm09
    ddmm09 20 December 2012 20: 05
    +1
    marshes,
    Talgar - in the era you mentioned, was it the territory of the Kazakhs?

    romb,
    A reasonable question arises. Where is at least one name of the famous Kazakh or other gunsmith in your region?
    1. marshes
      marshes 20 December 2012 20: 13
      0
      Quote: ddmm09
      Talgar - in the era you mentioned, was it the territory of the Kazakhs?

      Even "scary" Dulatov. smile
      July 24, 1853.
      Almaty
      G. Corps Commander
      With my report of July 18, No. 140, I had the honor to inform Your Excellency of crossing the river. Or…
      ... The woodland of the gorges, from where Issyk flows, made me immediately begin to survey them. Upon inspection, I moved to Talgar and, having examined its peaks, I am currently inspecting Almaty. Further, the Almaty forest in the mountains is gladdening and becoming more accessible. The choice to occupy the point should fall on Issyk or Talgar.
      - Centre. Gos. Archive of the Republic of Kazakhstan, f.3, op.1, case 7
      8 August, 1853
      Kargaly
      G. Corps Commander
      I had the honor to inform Your Excellency of my intentions to survey the peaks of Almaty. Having examined the first and second Almaty and the valley between them with engineer-lieutenant Aleksandrovsky, we found the convenience of logging, a large number of beautiful arable land rugged by irrigation ditches, pastures and hayfields, far exceeding the tracts in Issyk and Talgar, which is why Almaty was offered the place of the future settlements, moreover, through occupation of this point, all the best nomads and arable lands of Dulat will be at our fingertips. Unfortunately I can’t take this p ...
      (the end of the first sheet of the report is badly damaged and destroyed)
      - Centre. Gos. Archive of the Republic of Kazakhstan, f.3, op.1, case 7
      In the report of employee member N. A. Abramov, published in 1867 in St. Petersburg, the name "Almaty" is also used.
      Dulat (kaz. Dulattar / dulattar /; unit Dulat, other names - Dulu, Duklat, Duglat, Dugolat) - an ancient Turkic nomadic tribe and the largest group in the composition of the Senior Zhuz of the Kazakh nation. Dulat lived along the banks of Ili, right up to the Chu and Talas and the middle reaches of the Syr Darya.
      According to the agricultural census of 1906-1912. there were 334 thousand people, including 60,8% of the Kazakh population in Taraz, 41% in Almaty, 32,8% in Shymkent, and 93,7% of the Kazakh population in Bishkek [1]
      The question of the ethnicity of the Dulats has repeatedly been the subject of controversy for many researchers - some considered them to be from the Mongolian steppes (Rashid-ad-Din, Ch. Valikhanov), others as Türks (N. Aristov, S. Amanzholov). According to the latest data, the ethnic basis of the Dulat was made up of the tribes of the Western Turkic Kaganate (VI century), known in written sources as the “Dulu” (five Dulu tribes and five Nushibi tribes are residents of Semirechye. In 840, the Dulat became part of the Karakhanid state ( 840–1212), then the Khitan (Kara-Sin, 1124-1219) and finally the Mongols.In the Chagatai Ulus (1224–1348), later the Dulates founded their own state, Mogulistan.
    2. romb
      romb 20 December 2012 20: 13
      +1
      Please Kulmenov brothers. They are well known, including in other countries!
  • Setrac
    Setrac 20 December 2012 20: 12
    +1
    This "Khudud al-Alem" first surfaced in 1892 and cannot claim any antiquity.
  • elfxnumx
    elfxnumx 20 December 2012 20: 14
    +2
    This is not a historical article. This is Tolkien-style fantasy ...
    Hobbit-2 or how the hobbits and gnomes became the ancestors of the Indians and Cossacks :-)))
    1. marshes
      marshes 20 December 2012 20: 21
      -2
      Quote: elf72

      Hobbit-2 or how hobbits and gnomes became the ancestors of Indians and Cossacks

      A small mountainous region in southern Siberia is perhaps the genetic homeland of the first inhabitants of the North American continent. So said the Russian-American group of anthropologists, whose study was published on Thursday in the United States.

      These carriers of Asian genes passed through Siberia, and then moved to America through the Bering Strait, which at that time was not yet completely under water.

      Scientists conducted an analysis of the Y chromosome (transmitted by the paternal line) of the American Indians and indigenous people of southern Altai and as a result revealed a unique genetic mutation that is characteristic of these two groups.

      In addition, as indicated in the study, significant genetic similarity between the two groups was also found in the mitochondrial genome (transmitted through the maternal line). smile
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 22: 08
      +5
      No, no, no, friend. The ancestors of the Kazakhs were not hobbits, but beautiful swans. And here is the historical source:
      "All Kazakhs were swans -
      Kings of the steppes.
      And a graceful thin beak
      They ate horses. "

      (Astana.KZ, KVN.)

  • serge
    serge 20 December 2012 20: 25
    +3
    Historical fiction. Cossacks are Ukrainians (read between the lines), they are Scythians, they are Sarmatians, they are Circassians, they are black hoods, they are the Mongol army, they are Tatar Basques, they are marines (!) - Ushkuyniki. Kagan (!) Svyatoslav. Mosk (a) whether Joseph Stalin (!). Horror. Similar to this fantastic historical nonsense is seriously moving forward in Ukraine and Kazakhstan as the history of the fictional nations of Ukrainians and Kazakhs.
    1. bart74
      bart74 21 December 2012 01: 48
      +1
      yes I agree complete nonsense
  • ddmm09
    ddmm09 20 December 2012 20: 34
    +1
    marshes,
    romb,
    Actually, this is not about the 19th century, you developed a theory about the power of the Kazakhs from about the 12th-13th centuries. From that era, begin to reason. Remember how you fought with the Dzungars at least the 16-18th centuries (your historians write that 2/3 of the Kazakhs died from them during this time). First we developed a harmonious theory about our power, now you post some reprints from the wiki. No, that's not interesting.
    Take as an example even modern history, there is only one principle - if a state has a well-developed economy, then it easily allows itself to wage aggressive or defensive wars. Moreover, we can see at least traces of such power - architecture, works of art, etc. On the territory of Mongolia, something similar remained after the enslavement of Russia? Or maybe somewhere else? Use the era of the Mamluks as a fulcrum in your discussion, if they have been in power in Egypt for about 300 years, then traces of their culture are still visible with an unarmed look. But they also fought with the Mongols, had close ties with the Polovtsians of that era, etc. But the Mamluks are an estate similar to our Cossacks, only recruited from people bought in slave markets.

    marshes,
    Talgar was hardly Kazakh in the 10th century. They wrote that your people were not yet.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 20 December 2012 22: 48
      0
      Jungars were a worthy adversary. The same steppes. Yes, and received a firearm from the Russians. Nevertheless, they were completely destroyed by the Manchus and Kazakhs. Kalmyks still scare children with Kazakhs.
      Economics and military power are very different things. Rome fell from the barbarians - first the Huns, then the Germans doped.
      Byzantium fell from the nomadic Turks (Oguzes) and became Turkey.
      And you yourself know a lot of such examples. It’s just clear that the Russian person is unpleasant that once the nomads not only defeated all the Russian principalities, but also ruled for hundreds of years. The Chinese were also offended, but now they have taken a different path - they, recognizing the foreignness of the nomad invaders, simply declared themselves the political descendants of these conquerors. And therefore, with a clear conscience they erect monuments to Genghis Khan and shoot series on this topic, annoying both the Mongols and Kazakhs am
      Regarding the influence of the Horde on Russian culture in terms of architecture, then try to guess - what is the origin of the word architecture itself? :) But more seriously, let me remind you that Russian churches were built at one time of the Scandinavian type, and during the time of the Horde, oriental motives began to appear - Asian onion turrets. Kremlin is a word of Turkic origin, meaning “fenced off”. By the way, will Kazan, Tashkent, Turkestan, Taraz, Shymkent and hundreds of other cities be an example of the existence of Turkic architecture for you? By the way, do you recall the ethnicity of the sultan who built the Taj Mahal?
      And where did the Turkic words from the field of architecture and urban development come from in Russian - an architect, a brick, a street, a chicken, a hut (who would have thought!), A tent, a barn, a square, a barn, an attic, a hut, an adobe, etc. According to some of these words, of course, there are attempts to find a Slavic etymology, but even linguists who have put forward such versions, they are recognized as very weak versions (especially for the keywords - hut and Kremlin :))))).
      Well, as for the Mamluks and Egypt - here, as I understand it, you simply do not know the history of Egypt of that period at all. Because not a single historian (even the ardent anti-Turkist :)))) will have no doubt at all like yours about this.
      And regarding Talgar. They even gave you the name of the clan - dulats. They lived there then, they are indigenous there now. Dulats and other clans then did not have a common name "Kazakhs" ("Cossack"), but dulats were, are and will be.
      And the ethnonym can at least a hundred times a day change among the steppes. The main generic name. If at one time the Sultans Janibek and Giray had not freaked out on their Khan Abulkhair, then we would now be called Uzbeks (not to be confused with modern Uzbeks, descendants of Sarts) or Abulkhairians. In this case, the generic composition would be the same.
      The ethnonym among the Turks is rather the name of the union of clans. Take, for example, the Siberian Tatars or Nogais - look at their tribal composition - the same as that of the Kazakhs. Just someone subordinate to one khan, and in another part of the steppe - another khan ruled.
      In Soviet childhood, when I was asked about nationality, I answered proudly: "I am Soviet!" And for me a Latvian or a Moldavian were relatives. Is that clearer? Tomorrow the Kazakhs will take and call themselves some kind of "Kazakstandyk" -ami (Kazakhstani) in order to solve the issues of multi-ethnic Kazakhstan in one fell swoop, and that's it ... Kazakhs and Russians will disappear from us, we will be Kazakstandyks. But at the same time, we will still remember our generic names - argyn, naiman, dulat, kipchak, kerey, adai, skin, tore. Plus new genera will appear - Orys, Nemis, Ukrain, Korean :)))
      1. xan
        xan 20 December 2012 23: 41
        +1
        Marek rozny,
        they, recognizing the foreignness of the nomad invaders, simply declared themselves the political descendants of these conquerors

        Kazakhs, I didn’t understand something
        should we Russians recognize ourselves as political descendants of Turks and Kazakhs chtoli? not a lot of honor? How many people were in the Tatar-Mongolian army?
        Russia all its hard time and did not know about the existence of the Kazakhs, and when it became an empire, learned along the way. Why would the Russians supply the Dzungars with a firearm, if at one time they were sorted out by hundreds of Cossacks. What did you think of yourself there? Russian Cossacks have nothing to do with the Turks, they just lived nearby. I understand that by chance an article appeared suitable for the propaganda of pan-Turkism, and here you are grazing. Russian Cossacks became what we know and remember and value them in the 18th century, and you recall the time of the horde. so about the Turks - this is about the Turks, and about the Cossacks - this is about the Cossacks.
        Dosvidos.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 01: 04
          0
          And where do the Russians go? The Russian Empire, the USSR and the future Eurasian Union are the same Golden Horde, which regularly does a reboot, updating itself in the political sense. At the same time, its imperial essence, ethnic composition and external perimeter of the border are fully preserved. Only the dynasty is changing. Genghisides-Romanovs-Bolsheviks, etc. Previously, the Turkic language dominated, now Russian. Nothing wrong. After 200 years, Georgian can dominate. I personally do not care for the state language. If only the Horde was whole :)
          By the way, Ivan the Terrible tried in every possible way to appear before the other rulers of the fragments of the Horde as a Genghiside. Now this is ridiculous, but then it was necessary to have a legal justification for picking up the Empire's broken puzzles. And everyone perceived the Russian Tsar as the successor of the Great Khans, which was officially indicated in the diplomatic correspondence of those years. Another thing is that Petya Romanov, delighted with Europe, decided to completely repaint the Empire in European colors.
          And about the fact that supposedly Russia did not know about the existence of the Kazakhs - nonsense. Correspondence between the Kazakh khans and the Russian tsars was ongoing. The nephew of the Kazakh Khan Taukel - Uraz-Mohammed, for example, was the commander of the Russian army in the Crimean direction in the 16th century and was killed by False Dmitry II.
          Regarding the supply of firearms to the Dzungars - see the Great Soviet Encyclopedia. Strange as it may seem, Soviet historians did not ignore this fact.
          I, kanesh, understand that you are sickened by the fact that there is a lot of non-Russian in the history of Russia, and everything Russian is great and great, but whatever one may say, the history of the Russian people alone does not fit into the geography of Russia. You probably don't know about the fact that there were empires on the territory of the Russian Federation in the 6th century in the form of a huge Türkic Kaganate, as well as about the existence of the state of Jurchens and other other peoples on the "Russian" land. And no stupid pan-Turkism has nothing to do with it. This is the history of Russia. As it is. Together with narrow-eyed nomads, together with Tengrian prayers, together with colorful Horde cities. Ulug Ulus, in a word - the Great State.
          1. Horde
            Horde 22 December 2012 10: 29
            +1
            Only the dynasty is changing. Genghisides-Romanovs-Bolsheviks, etc. Previously, the Turkic language dominated, now Russian.


            then there’s more nonsense and he’ll banish for the truth. laughing For example, there are ancient annals in the Slavic languages, which is the basis for both TI and other points of view, but as you know from the era of Genghisides and the Golden Horde, there are NO WRITTEN DOCUMENTS almost on what basis do you say that the Turkic language dominated?
            After 200 years, Georgian can dominate.


            "... ROBIC GEORGINS RUNNED ..." Demon Lermontov. , what would some language DOMINATE it is necessary that the people of a native speaker dominate in something, for example, win wars, and this is a problem for Georgians.

            Ivan the Terrible tried in every possible way to appear before other rulers of the fragments of the Horde as a Genghiside.


            link to the studio. I know that in a letter to the Queen of England, Ivan4 said that his family was from Julius Caesar, but you certainly can’t believe this either, since the UTs is a legendary person, like Genghis Khan.
            And about the fact that supposedly Russia did not know about the existence of the Kazakhs - nonsense. Correspondence between the Kazakh khans and the Russian tsars was ongoing. The nephew of the Kazakh Khan Taukel - Uraz-Mohammed, for example, was the commander of the Russian army in the Crimean direction in the 16th century and was killed by False Dmitry II.


            Again, a link to the studio, what kind of correspondence? why don't we know?
            I, kanesh, understand that you are sickened by the fact that there is a lot of non-Russian in the history of Russia, and everything Russian is great and great, but whatever one may say, the history of the Russian people alone does not fit into the geography of Russia. You probably don't know about the fact that there were empires on the territory of the Russian Federation in the 6th century in the form of a huge Türkic Kaganate, as well as about the existence of the state of Jurchens and other other peoples on the "Russian" land. And no stupid pan-Turkism has nothing to do with it. This is the history of Russia. As it is. Together with narrow-eyed nomads, together with Tengrian prayers, together with colorful Horde cities. Ulug Ulus, in a word - the Great State.


            about the existence of the "huge Turkic kaganate" seems to be, only you know the rest have not heard anything. The most important thing is that from the kaganates, golden hordes and from their virtual rulers in real life, there is NOTHING left, neither documents, nor structures, nor anything other than stupid speculation, it may be enough to fill in about "Mongol-Tatars here, the Turks, their assistants" WHAT ARE YOURS EVIDENCE?
        2. bart74
          bart74 21 December 2012 01: 45
          +1
          DO NOT BELIEVE IN NONSENSE
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 21 December 2012 23: 37
            0
            Add nonsense: Ulus - Urus, maybe Ulus is Russia? So to speak literally in Turkic.
      2. Flooding
        Flooding 21 December 2012 12: 36
        +1
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        But seriously, I remind you that Russian churches were once built like the Scandinavian ones, and in the time of the Horde, oriental motifs began to appear - Asian bulbous turrets.

        What you call oriental motifs is Byzantine architecture, which came to Russia with Orthodoxy. Yes, the east probably influenced it, but it came to Russia through Byzantium.
        Church of Our Lady of Pammacaristos

        Once built like the Scandinavian? I don’t know if they can be called Scandinavian. It is rather the style of the northern Slavs. In the Pomeranian they looked like this:
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 13: 17
          +1
          1) Regarding the Greek building :) So what? Does it look like a Russian temple? Even if I’m drunk, I won’t confuse the Russian church with this Greek building :))) But take the contours of Russian churches, remove the crosses and draw Aladdin against them - you will have a spilled oriental fairy tale :))) What does St. Basil's Cathedral look like on Europe or Asia? To Orthodox Greece or the Muslim East? I think the answer is obvious to you.
          2) Maybe I will surprise you, but the northern Slavs experienced the strongest influence of the Scandinavians, including in architecture. Moreover, the Scandinavians began to develop Pomerania 5 minutes earlier than the Slavs.
          And the church in the photo is typical Norwegian. Look on the internet old Norwegian wooden churches. And do not say that this is a coincidence or the supposedly Scandinavians have learned to build churches from the Russians.
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 21 December 2012 14: 42
            0
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            And the church in the photo is typical Norwegian. Look on the internet old Norwegian wooden churches. And do not say that this is a coincidence or the supposedly Scandinavians have learned to build churches from the Russians.

            Of course not. As you can argue, the Scandinavians are much more ancient and enlightened than the Russians. I do not even demand proof from you. Enough of your words. Now I have enlightened and will bring the light of your teachings to people.
            However, I can develop an idea. Scandinavians had a strong influence on Armenians

            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Regarding the Greek building :) So what? Does it look like a Russian temple? Even if I’m drunk, I won’t confuse the Russian church with this Greek building :))) But take the contours of Russian churches, remove the crosses and draw Aladdin against them - you will have a spilled oriental fairy tale :))) What does St. Basil's Cathedral look like on Europe or Asia? To Orthodox Greece or the Muslim East? I think the answer is obvious to you.

            The types of domes of Russian churches are not one or two.
            Helmet-shaped domes are as widespread as bulbous domes.
            I admit, I chose a not-so-good example of Byzantine architecture.
            But you will take an interest in where the onion-like domes so loved by you came to Central Asia. Is it from India by chance?
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 17: 19
              0
              1) The Scandinavians began to develop the lands on which, for example, Novgorod now stands, a little earlier than the Slavs. With the smallest margin. About the influence of Scandinavian customs, language and other things on the ancestors of the northern Russians - a railway train and a small cart are written in Russia. Why take offense at me and flirt? Moreover, for some reason to look for the roots of Russian churches in Greece - you "didn’t zap" (sorry, for the expression), and my example with the Norwegians greatly outraged you. Well, the northern Russians adopted the style of Scandinavian church building, and then adopted Asian motives. And then the Italians were invited. What's so offensive? And I was not going to "humiliate" this in any way. The question just started above, they say, with what fright the Turks are able to build, and this topic started. The Turks also borrowed differently from their neighbors, fortunately, that they had seen both Asia and Europe. With this, I'm not going to argue, but I myself can give a lecture for hours. The question was - what did the Turks bring to Russian architecture? I have named some examples. And he brought the vocabulary. And then people are convinced that the Turks only rode on horses and even a Lego set would not have folded. It's like a grandfather from the Bryansk region blurt out, they say, all the Germans are punitive, which means they don't know how to build and so on. And he will be convinced that he is right, because all the Germans he saw were SS-sheep, and he never saw other Germans. And so it turns out. Moreover, the theme of nomads among the Turkic peoples is idealized and promoted, often to the detriment of the "urban" part of their own history. We only focus on nomads. In Russia, this picture of the Turks is even more distorted. Solid "tugarin snakes".
              1. Horde
                Horde 21 December 2012 23: 21
                +2
                The Scandinavians began to develop those lands on which Novgorod, for example, now stands, a little earlier than the Slavs.


                maybe the Scandinavians mastered the northern lands before the Slavs, but the only question is, what were they actually for the Swedes? Among the deposits of the strata of the traditional historical paradigm of steel are strange facts, for example, "A LITTLE SPEECH ACCORDING TO KARL 11" written in the Latin alphabet read IN RUSSIAN. This historical document is in the museum in Stockholm and was brought to the celebration of 300 liters of St. Petersburg. Here is a question for you, as an adherent TI with what joy did the medieval Swedes speak Russian?
                1. nurker
                  nurker 21 December 2012 23: 29
                  0
                  looks more like Polish (1697). And where did Cyril and Methodius go with the Cyrillic alphabet?

                  Dear, where did the picture come from, give the source of the title of the book
                  1. Horde
                    Horde 22 December 2012 00: 58
                    +1
                    http://video.yandex.ru/users/taksi12/view/3/?cauthor=tantrido&cid=8

                    this is not a book this is Levashov’s movie, there are a lot of absurd facts, but about the fact that the speech was given at the funeral of Karl11 in Russian, there are still confirmations, I can’t find yet.
                    1. nurker
                      nurker 22 December 2012 01: 32
                      +1
                      And you are aware that a criminal case was opened on Levashev and Trekhlebov.

                      The elect of God is racism, in this matter they answered ...
                      Dear, at least turn your head on when you watch such films, and always analyze cause-effect relationships, with such films as people like you preparing for the army of Nazi Slavs, this is a Roman chocolate wrapped in another candy wrapper to let it through, and people are tired of everyone religions and scholars, and you got caught on another hook.

                      I recommend that you familiarize yourself with Major General Petrov K.P. and with lectures on the Concept of Public Security, who really have Slavic goals
                      1. Horde
                        Horde 22 December 2012 09: 51
                        -2
                        Quote: nurker
                        And you are aware that a criminal case was opened on Levashev and Trekhlebov.


                        Levashov has already died so that the case is closed, but this is not important.
                        The elect of God is racism, in this matter they answered ...

                        interesting and what did they answer? that the Russians were at the beginning and the rest were at the end, what can you do if it was so, there must be someone first.
                        I recommend that you familiarize yourself with Major General Petrov K.P. and with lectures on the Concept of Public Security, who really have Slavic goals


                        Dear, at least turn your head on when you watch such films, and always analyze cause-effect relationships, with such films as people like you preparing for the army of Nazi Slavs, this is a Roman chocolate wrapped in another candy wrapper to let it through, and people are tired of everyone religions and scholars, and you got caught on another hook.

                        it’s not for you to advise which films to watch and which books to read in my history, I’ll figure it out myself without your prompts

                        Petrov the talker, and his lectures transfusion from empty to empty ...
                      2. nurker
                        nurker 22 December 2012 09: 58
                        0
                        it’s not for you to advise which films to watch and which books to read in my history, I’ll figure it out myself without your prompts

                        So it is, your truth is and will remain your truth.
                        Then answer me the question, where did the Slavs come from?
                      3. nurker
                        nurker 22 December 2012 10: 22
                        -1
                        Petrov the talker, and his lectures transfusion from empty to empty ...

                        The fact that Petrov is a talker is your opinion? or did such a conclusion come from Levashov’s lectures ??

                        I watched Levashev’s lectures, so he said there that if a person lies, then he dies, that is, Petrov died because he lied ... But Levashev died too because he lied a lot ...

                        I want to unite the members of the forum: The origins of the Cossack rites are Turkic, these are the reasons, and as a result they are Slavs in their genetic significance ...
                      4. Horde
                        Horde 22 December 2012 10: 57
                        0
                        I watched Levashev’s lectures, so he said there that if a person lies, then he dies, that is, Petrov died because he lied ... But Levashev died too because he lied a lot ...


                        I absolutely do not care what Levashov said there, you asked for the source of the quote, I gave it to you, there are other sources.

                        I want to unite the members of the forum: The origins of the Cossack rites are Turkic, these are the reasons, and as a result they are Slavs in their genetic significance ...


                        together with your friends on the discussion you are mistaken. "Turks" cannot be the forerunners of the Cossacks due to the fact that the very name "Turk", like "Mongol", "Mongolian race" is a product of the 19th century. Like the "Kazakhs", a product of the century 20.
                      5. nurker
                        nurker 22 December 2012 11: 15
                        0
                        Note, I did not say that the Turks were the ancestors of the Cossacks, I meant that both the Cossacks and the Turks had a cultural exchange ...

                        and the fact that you are the Mongols, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, as the second grade was considered, doesn’t color you at all.
                        According to your arguments, it turns out that I am a descendant of some unknown creature
                        You will meet a Kyrgyz or a Mongol and ask their origin, they will tell you everything and explain. You are engaged in inciting racial hatred towards the neighbors of Russia, and this is another weapon for dividing and escalating the negative towards Russia. Moreover, Asia already has a dislike for Russia, and you only take such convictions and confirm your ignorance. then do not be offended.

                        "Turk", like "Mongol", "Mongolian race" are products of the 19th century. Like the "Kazakhs", a product of the 20th century. SO YOU HAVE ONLY LOST THE MANY CENTURY HISTORY OF THESE PEOPLES AND THEIR PEDIGREE. SUBMIT PROOF THAT WE ARE PRODUCTS OF THE 20TH CENTURY?

                        here is the opinion of one of the people from your source, it’s most likely Slavs:
                        "" it's just a text message from Russia was sent (of course, then still a letter) about the expression of condolences! I would have to send 2 letters in Russian letters.
                        But did Europe not undergo romanization or was this romanization in Russian.
                        Although no, I found a connection, everything is in order: the Romuls (Romans) came from the Romanov dynasty, and while the Romanovs were romanizing Europe, we were temporarily ruled by the Rurikovichs (acting so to speak), and then the Romanovs returned "
                      6. Horde
                        Horde 22 December 2012 12: 14
                        -1
                        SO, YOU ONLY HAVE OMITTED THE MANY-HISTORY HISTORY OF THESE PEOPLES AND THEIR PEDIGREE. PROOF THAT WE ARE PRODUCTS OF THE 20 CENTURY?

                        so at the end of the 19th century, NO KAZAKH WERE EXISTING KYRGYZ.
                      7. Beck
                        Beck 22 December 2012 12: 57
                        -1
                        Quote: Horde
                        so at the end of the 19th century, NO KAZAKH WERE EXISTING KYRGYZ.


                        Russian administration called the Kazakhs, kaisaks and further Kazakhs from bewilderment and misunderstanding.

                        Our self-name is not KAZAKH, but KAZAK (the letter k was replaced with x only in Soviet times). The imperial administration stared blankly here and there. Here Cossacks and here қazaқi. And what about clerical clerical work? After all, the confusion will be above the roof. So they decided to clearly distinguish, write the steppes and kaisaks and Kyrgyz.
                    2. Horde
                      Horde 22 December 2012 12: 40
                      0
                      You will meet a Kyrgyz or a Mongol and ask their origin, they will tell you everything and explain. You are engaged in inciting racial hatred towards the neighbors of Russia, and this is another weapon for dividing and escalating the negative towards Russia. Moreover, Asia already has a dislike for Russia, and you only take such convictions and confirm your ignorance. then do not be offended.


                      Although history is, as Gleb Nosovsky put it, "a kind of court poetry", it is desirable for the accuracy of history to have not the opinion of people from the street, but FACTS AND DOCUMENTS. If the neighbors of Russia are engaged in rewriting the HISTORY of Russia, then they must certainly be put in PLACE.
                      Ermak was not Russian!
              2. Horde
                Horde 22 December 2012 10: 49
                +1
                So it is, your truth is and will remain your truth.

                TRUTH is a category of objective and evidence-based and independent of anyone’s opinions. As for Karl11, here is http://gorod.tomsk.ru/index-1228868796.php.
                Then answer me the question, where did the Slavs come from?

                no written source has been preserved where we would be informed where the Slavs came from and where the Kyrgyz came from.
                do not ask stupid questions, lead a conversation on the merits
              3. Horde
                Horde 22 December 2012 12: 22
                0
                population data taken from the census of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE 1897
                there are no Kazakhs reported in the census, there are Kyrgyz, there are Kyrgyz-kaisaki, therefore, as a nation, the Kazakhs became only a stroke of the pen of Lenin.
              4. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 22 December 2012 12: 54
                +1
                Horde, that's what! I read the census of Kazakhstan in the Kazakh language. Searched for Russian - did not find. There is a Cossack, Ozbek, Nemis, Korea, Ukraine, there are even some ores. But there are no Russians. It’s a pity we don’t have Lenin, otherwise he would have created them with a magic stroke of the pen ...
              5. Horde
                Horde 22 December 2012 13: 11
                +2
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                Horde, that's what! I read the census of Kazakhstan in the Kazakh language. Searched for Russian - did not find. There is a Cossack, Ozbek, Nemis, Korea, Ukraine, there are even some ores. But there are no Russians. It’s a pity we don’t have Lenin, otherwise he would have created them with a magic stroke of the pen ...


                the fact that you didn’t find Russians in Kazakhstan is your problem because of this the Russians didn’t stop being. As for your census, it is translated as Russian, but Kyrgyz is not translated from any other, like Kazakh.
              6. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 22 December 2012 13: 41
                +1
                Quote: Horde
                the fact that you did not find the Russians in Kazakhstan is your problem; therefore, the Russians did not cease to be.

                In-in, golden words, Yuri Venediktovich! So the fact that the Russian official census does not contain "Kazakhs" does not mean that there was no such people with such a self-name ("Cossack"). The Kazakhs never called themselves Kirghiz, except that the documents had to be drawn up in this way, since the Russians did not categorically accept the "Cossack" nationality. Read any Russian explorer of the Steppe. Everyone writes that the self-name of the "Kyrgyz" is actually "Cossack". And the ethnonyms "Kirghiz", "Kirghiz-Kaysak" were invented so as not to confuse Asians-Cossacks with Russian service Cossacks. What are you talking about nonsense? In addition, even the Soviet government initially called the republic from the 20s of the Kazak ASSR, the nationality was recorded as "Kazak". And only in 1936 they again decided to distort the self-name of this Turkic people by changing the last letter to "X", inventing a new ethnonym "Kazakh" and "Kazakh SSR".
                We call you Orys, tomorrow we will take you and begin to call you Resailik ("Russians") in Kazakh. And we will also prove to you that no Russians existed in nature. There were only Orys, to whom the Kazakhs gave their real name "resalelik".
              7. Horde
                Horde 22 December 2012 14: 16
                -2
                golden words, Yuri Venediktovich!

                I am not Yuri Venediktovich.

                The Azakhs never called themselves Kirghiz, except that the documents had to be drawn up in this way, since the Russians did not categorically accept the "Cossack" nationality. Read any Russian explorer of the Steppe. Everyone writes that the self-name of the "Kyrgyz" is actually "Cossack". And the ethnonyms "Kirghiz", "Kirghiz-Kaysak" were invented so as not to confuse Asians-Cossacks with Russian service Cossacks.


                it means everyone was mistaken when they said the Kyrgyz and the Russians and other map-makers of that time, but did he make the 19th-century map of John Kari when he wrote the Kyrgyz?

                We call you Orys, tomorrow we will take you and start calling you reseilik in Kazakh ("Russians"


                call that word get in your ear dude ...
              8. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 22 December 2012 14: 58
                +3
                It feels like I'm talking to the wall))))
                I say again, the self-name of Kazakhs since the 15th century is KAZAK, and nothing else. Where did the word "Kirghiz" come from? You have already been written here a hundred times - so as not to confuse their service Cossacks with us.
                Secondly, put your hands down, Internet fighter. Somehow your threats are not very impressive. As Kazakhs want in their own language, they call Russians. Just as the Russians call the Han Chinese the Chinese, Deutsche call the Germans, the Magyars the Hungarians. And the Russians in Kazakh - Resaleik, Russia in Kazakh - Resey, Moscow - Maskeu. Now go to Kazakhstan and start fighting with all the Kazakhs about this :)))))
      3. Beck
        Beck 22 December 2012 13: 07
        +2
        Quote: Horde
        there are no Kazakhs reported in the census, there are Kyrgyz, there are Kyrgyz-kaisaki, therefore, as a nation, the Kazakhs became only a stroke of the pen of Lenin.


        Before the revolution, the steppe-Cossacks were written by the Kyrgyz, Kaisaks, in order to distinguish them from the Russian Cossacks.

        In 1925, the Soviet government faced another problem. There were also the highlanders of the Tien Shan who had already precisely called themselves Kyrgyz. Again avoiding confusion. The Soviet government in 1925 renamed the Kyrgyz SSR into the Kazakh SSR. That is, the last letter K is replaced by X. Now there will be no confusion in the documents. There will be Cossacks, there will be Kazakhs and there will be Kyrgyz. Now everything is a chinar.
      4. Horde
        Horde 22 December 2012 13: 32
        0
        Before the revolution, the steppe-Cossacks were written by the Kyrgyz, Kaisaks, in order to distinguish them from the Russian Cossacks.

        In 1925, the Soviet government faced another problem. There were also the highlanders of the Tien Shan who had already precisely called themselves Kyrgyz. Again avoiding confusion. The Soviet government in 1925 renamed the Kyrgyz SSR into the Kazakh SSR. That is, the last letter K is replaced by X. Now there will be no confusion in the documents. There will be Cossacks, there will be Kazakhs and there will be Kyrgyz. Now everything is a chinar.


        the fact that the Kirghiz called themselves warriors as opposed to some sort of Sart, and the fact that the Kirghiz at the same time called themselves Cossacks-daredevils, is also a known fact, but all this was most likely already in the 19th century. And of course, not all Kyrgyz were Cossacks, but had their own names of the clans, so the country of KAZAKHSTAN - the country of the Cossacks does not have one hundred percent coincidence.
      5. Beck
        Beck 22 December 2012 13: 52
        +1
        Quote: Horde
        KAZAKHSTAN - the country of the Cossacks does not have one hundred percent coincidence.


        You somehow entered the topic from the middle. Now to answer, to repeat again what was said earlier. If you are not lazy, and if you want, read the comments above.
        Then I think you will ask questions in a different vein.

        And further. A purely personal interest. Your nickname is Horde. Avatar - Wolf, Totem of Türks (a bared wolf head flaunted at the top of the banners). If not a secret, what is your ethnic name?
      6. Horde
        Horde 22 December 2012 14: 02
        +1
        Quote: Beck
        If not a secret, what is your ethnic name?


        What is Beck so abstruse? nationality or what? no secrets, mom and dad were russian ...
      7. Beck
        Beck 22 December 2012 14: 08
        +1
        Quote: Horde
        What is Beck so abstruse?


        And this is just in case. You never know what. Suddenly you come across a nationalist. Then bark at half a page, and this is useless to me.
  • Horde
    Horde 22 December 2012 13: 20
    -2
    and not even so, Lenin has nothing to do with it.
    During the national-state demarcation of the Soviet republics of Central Asia, in April 1925 it was renamed the Kazakh Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, and on December 5, 1936 it was incorporated into the USSR as a union republic. Data on TSB.
  • Lignitz
    Lignitz 23 December 2012 15: 10
    0
    Then a mistake crept in, not in the Kazakh Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, but in the Kazak Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, I’m sorry that I’m correcting it.
  • Flooding
    Flooding 24 December 2012 13: 43
    +3


    It is possible that the Cyrillic woman could not stand it and lost her position, just as she had done in the territory of modern Romania.
    Who needed it? This is another question.
    But in Romania, too, the "struggle for the purity of the language" began with a change in the alphabet.
    1. Horde
      Horde 24 December 2012 20: 48
      +1
      Quote: Flood
      It is possible that the Cyrillic woman could not stand it and lost her position, just as she had done in the territory of modern Romania.


      I welcome you in bulk!
      "Lamentable speech" is a very serious document that runs counter to any Scaligerianism, sorry for the expression. I would like to hear what the TI historians can argue on this score. Thank you very much for the valuable and rare historical document. I just heard about it, but not live never seen.
      1. xan
        xan 25 December 2012 22: 45
        0
        in bulk
        great respect
  • YuDDP
    YuDDP 21 December 2012 00: 02
    +1
    Serious work, with pictures, but erroneous.
    I recommend the author to read Nosovsky with Fomenko.
    1. Beck
      Beck 21 December 2012 01: 03
      -2
      ALL.

      Too late to sleep. I want to thank everyone for their restraint and correctness. All without screaming.

      And I want to thank fellow countrymen that without a bang. And reasoned with evidence. If at least a tenth of what we have said will reach the Russian forum users, then the Eurases will be 10% easier to build.
  • bart74
    bart74 21 December 2012 01: 44
    -1
    TOTAL LITTLE THAT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE FACT OF EXISTENCE OF CHINGISKHAN! (HERE ABOUT EXISTENCE OF TAMERLAN-TIMUR IS!). SO AUTHOR deduced the beginning of the rise of the Cossacks from the Mongols. AUTHOR TREAT IN A HOSPITAL. MY ANCESTORS IN AFUA FROM SUCH THEORIES!
    1. romb
      romb 21 December 2012 13: 22
      -1
      TOTAL LITTLE THAT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE FACT OF EXISTENCE OF CHINGISKHAN!

      Hmm ... "Torah" is shocked!))))
  • bart74
    bart74 21 December 2012 02: 03
    +2
    Hear what are we talking about? Forget about the greatness and primacy of the "great" Turks. Exaggerating this topic only adds confidence in the inconsistency of this theory and in the complexes of underdevelopment of this ethnic group, which claims to be the primordiality of its ethnic group in Eurasia. Okostya. Only our Russian tolerance and the blood of our ancestors shed for you made it possible for you as nations and cultures to take place. And you are already climbing into such a historical jungle in which, I apologize for my own gentleness, your grandfathers were still hanging on branches in Indian zoos. Your screams are reminiscent of Sharikov's monologues from The Heart of a Dog.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 03: 13
      -1
      1) The topic was set initially - "Ancient ancestors of the Cossacks", in which the author (a Slav) tries to give his answer. There is a corresponding discussion of supporters and opponents of the Turkic beginning of the Cossacks. If you, "highly developed", "tolerant" and "Bart 74, who climbed off the branch of the Indian zoo before anyone else," have reasons - then state them. If there is nothing but bile and a dirty tongue, go for a walk.
      2) In what war did your ancestors shed blood for the Kazakhs?
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 02: 34
    +1
    Let's think about the lands on which the "Russian Cossacks" appeared. We will examine the land on which specifically the Zaporozhye and Don Cossacks appeared.
    We take an atlas on the history of the USSR for the 8th grade.
    We open page number 2 - "Ancient states ...": on the territory we need, the "Scythians" are marked. I hope people here remember that the Scythians were nomads, not sedentary. They ate horse meat and drank kumis, and, according to all academic historians, they were not the ancestors of Russians.
    Opening page number 3 "Kievan Rus in the 9-12 centuries": Pechenegs, Polovtsy and Khazars live on this territory. The peoples are clearly of Turkic origin. They lead a nomadic way of life, eat horse meat, lift up all neighbors.
    Page number 4 "Feudal fragmentation of Russia in the 12-13th century": on this territory, from now on, all the nomadic tribes were consolidated into "Polovtsy", who still eat meat, ride horses across the steppe, get involved for profit in any fights between Rurikovich.
    Page 6 "Fight against invaders in the 13th century": the Polovtsian nomads were in their place, although another nomad, Batu, walked along with a dotted line.
    Page 8 "Formation of the Russian centralized state": the territory of future Cossacks is generally absent on the map of Russia.
    Page number 9 "The Russian state in the second half of the 16th century": SUDDENLY between the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Crimean Khanate on the lands of the Polovtsy a mysterious inscription "Zaporozhye" appears, and between the aforementioned Crimean Khanate and the Astrakhan Khanate "Don Cossacks" appear! Where are the local nomads who have lived for centuries on this territory ??? And where did some Slavs come from? "Cossack" vocabulary is Turkic, the names of atamans are Turkic, self-designation is Turkic, clothing is Turkic, weapons and tactics are Turkic, plowing - they do not plow, they live only by cattle and war ... What is this amazing substitution? Local Turks disappeared, and instead of them very strange Slavs without a single ethnocultural Slavic sign ... Let me remind you that this is the 16th century - i.e. there can be no runaway serfs by definition, and in general the idea of ​​the Russian people fleeing deep into the lands of nomads smacks of idiocy. It's like the Belarusian partisans flee from the SS-ov punishers to Bavaria. All the same, supporters of the eternal confrontation "Russians VS steppe dwellers" must understand that the Horde will either sell them into slavery or simply eat them.
    Which of you, members of the forum, wants to flee in the 16th century deep into the lands of the Horde and from whom did you decide to hide between the Crimean and Astrakhan khanates? From serfdom, which has not yet been invented? From the "Tatar-Mongol" yoke? From burdensome corvee and tithe? Are any of you now ready to run away from mortgages in Afghanistan? And why do you present your Russian ancestors as some idiots who, in the 16th century, allegedly fled into the Don wedge between the Crimeans and Astrakhan? I'm not talking about the Nogais scouring nearby. And what a masquerade with Turkic clothing, self-name, weapons and vocabulary? So that the enemy khans did not burn down the Slavic saboteurs in the deep Turkic rear?
    Russian people did not run to the Don between the khanates and the Nogai horde. And the local Turkic nomads did not disappear anywhere. Cossacks came from these same nomads. And awareness of this fact instantly removes all the stupid cognitively dissonant misunderstandings.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 21 December 2012 12: 44
      +1
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      Let's think about the lands on which the "Russian Cossacks" appeared. We will examine the land on which specifically the Zaporozhye and Don Cossacks appeared.

      And what does the Atlas on the history of the USSR for the 8th grade tell us about the history of the Tmutarakan principality?
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 13: 20
        0
        this is where a couple of times the Russian (or rather still Scandinavian) princes ruled? ;) Soviet history abruptly dealt with the Vikings, all of their campaigns in the territory of the USSR declared Slavic.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 21 December 2012 13: 40
          +1
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Soviet history abruptly dealt with the Varangians; all their campaigns in the territory of the USSR were declared Slavic.

          But in reality, the harsh Scandinavians (who? Swedes or what?) Came to Russian lands, and probably in a considerable number, and arranged for the beating of babies? And then quickly lost their militancy and hid in the corners?
          Let's not touch the "Scandinavian" princes.
          I asked a simple question. You are guided by the atlas of history, so answer me on it. Or does the atlas selectively give answers only to your questions?
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 14: 11
            +1
            And what is there to answer? You yourself know everything. Khazar city. Populated by the Khazars, Greeks and all newcomers - Jews, Caucasians, Slavs. During the weakening of the Khazar Khaganate, the Scandinavians, who ruled the Slavs at that time, successfully slaughtered the Khazars in pieces from the 9th century, taking away their lands and cities (Kiev until the 9th century was a small border fortification of the Khazars until it was captured and made by the Rurik from the lands of the northern Slavs at your bid). For a short time, Tmutarakan was controlled by the Rurikovich (but this did not make the population different). Very soon, Tmutarakan became a colony of European merchants and Circassians. Etc. The Russian-inhabited Tmutarakan has never been. Well, for the Russians themselves, the concept of Tmutarakan generally means, you know, something unimaginably distant.
            Do you have any information about the mass migrations of the Slavs to Tmutarakan during that short historical period when it was captured by the Rurikovich? Or do you think any Greek temple is evidence of his Russian character? So, Orthodox churches appeared there even before the Russians became Orthodox. There the Greeks were the founders, until the Khazars appeared.
            As I understand it, do you want to write down the fact of a short rule by the Rurikovich of this Khazar city far from the Slavic lands into the treasury of evidence of the Russian origin of the Cossacks? Or what?
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 21 December 2012 16: 10
              0
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Kiev until the 9th century was a small border fortification Khazaruntil Rurik from the lands of the northern Slavs captured and made his bid

              Everything is clear, I pass. Against such an argument, I simply cannot find any arguments.
            2. Flooding
              Flooding 21 December 2012 17: 45
              +1
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              And what is there to answer? You yourself know everything.

              Do not look at me between the lines. I already understood what you need to spell.
              Repeat question? You look in the atlas and find confirmation for your own reasons. But, apparently, the atlas for the 8th grade cannot give an answer to all the questions. And even that little information contained in it is very superficial. Which I tried to convey to you.
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Very soon, Tmutarakan became a colony of European merchants and Circassians.

              Colony of Circassians - sounds exciting. And they had a lot of colonies?
    2. xan
      xan 21 December 2012 14: 09
      0
      Marek rozny,
      it remains to answer one question why the Turkic nomads suddenly forgot their language and spoke in Russian
      and yet, the most famous Cossack Yermak moved to the steppes due to constant crop failures in the Russian north and the famine associated with this.
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 21 December 2012 14: 58
        +1
        Quote: xan
        and yet, the most famous Cossack Yermak moved to the steppes due to constant crop failures in the Russian north and the famine associated with this.

        xan, be careful.
        Ermak has already been attributed to the Turks.
        Quote: Beck
        There was a recent broadcast on the Russian television channel "365". There Ermak is directly called a Turk in the service of the Stroganovs. The Türks usually gave the name Ermek to the youngest son, since he was fun with the elderly parents. Literal translation Ermek - Fun.
    3. Horde
      Horde 22 December 2012 00: 33
      -1
      We take an atlas on the history of the USSR for the 8th grade.


      You see, the history books of the USSR are a little outdated due to the fact that NEW HISTORICAL FACTS are opened, for example, it turns out that the old world maps were not taken into account at all when the TI was written to which you refer and from which you make ERRUAL conclusions, but after all it’s exactly there that contains the GENUINE history of peoples and countries of that time, for example, consider a map of the beginning of the 17th century, which we see
      Vast toponyms are called TARTARIA. There are KOZAKI near the Black Sea, in Central Asia there are KALMOKI, there are BASHKIR, there are even TURKMEN, and why not, and there are NO KIRGHIZ, well, and, accordingly, Kazakhs. A significant fact! Do you think that the KOZAKI in UKRAINE were Türks - it’s vryatli then I advise you to look at the typical TARTAR in the lower left corner typical Zaporozhye Cossacks!
      1. nurker
        nurker 22 December 2012 01: 09
        -3
        It's funny that this map was not known in Soviet times, but how the collapse was, it immediately came out as an alternative story. The development in this direction of history was greatly contributed by Levashov, with his great tartaria. By the way, he himself lived about 15 years abroad. this is the so-called Solzhenitsyn in the era of Stalin, who understood he understood.

        Dear, when you were told that Soviet textbooks hid the origin of the Türks, it did not mean that there were no Soviet historians of Turkologists ...

        and by the way, the map once again confirms that the Kazakhs are a free people.

        you see three green areas on the map: in the east, south-west and north-west, between them a scarlet large territory, divide it into north and south and in the southern part read TARTARIE INDEPENDENTE, which literally can be translated as free Tatars, and now taking into account the fact that the Europeans did not separate clans and tribes, then for them all these are Tatars, not in the ethnic sense, but in the sense that they are "not Christians", that is, not literally Slavs.
        1. Horde
          Horde 22 December 2012 11: 37
          0
          Quote: nurker
          It's funny that this map was not known in Soviet times,


          whoever needs a GENUINE story is always known.
          The development in this direction of history was greatly contributed by Levashov, with his great tartaria. By the way, he himself lived about 15 years abroad. this is the so-called Solzhenitsyn in the era of Stalin, who understood he understood.


          about Levashov, do not insist; I took him only as a source of quotation.
          Dear, when you were told that Soviet textbooks hid the origin of the Türks, it did not mean that there were no Soviet historians of Turkologists ...


          why did they hide it? what are the Turks, what is a sacred concept? it seems not.

          and by the way, the map once again confirms that the Kazakhs are a free people.


          you made me laugh "free people" - that means today they are here, tomorrow look for us in Patagonia, and maybe in Lapland. laughing

          you see three green areas on the map: in the east, south-west and north-west, between them a scarlet large territory, divide it into north and south and in the southern part read TARTARIE INDEPENDENTE, which literally can be translated as free Tatars, and now taking into account the fact that the Europeans did not separate clans and tribes, then for them all these are Tatars, not in the ethnic sense, but in the sense that they are "not Christians", that is, not Slavs literally



          not Tatars, but Tartars - these are two big differences Tatars appeared in the 19th century attached to the Bulgars-Volgars. Modern Tatars are for the most part Slavs speaking Tatar-Turkic. Tartaria is a westernized name of the country that existed almost until the end of the 18th century with its capital in Tobolsk. So the Great Tartary included Independent Tartary, as well as Chinese Tartary, and this was the Russian state, at least in control.

          but for them all these are Tatars, not in the ethnic sense, but in the sense that they are “not Christians,” that is, not literally Slavs.


          awkwardly replaced by concepts, not Christians at all does not mean that they are not Slavs. Fomenko, Nosovsky have a version backed up by some nonsensical facts that the Russians in those days, as well as the Cossacks, were BILINGUAL, and maybe more, there were too many Russian documents written in Arabic . Accordingly, the khans of Tokhtamysh, Tamerlan were Russian. As for Tamerlane, the face was reconstructed from the skull of the remains and this face was not Turkic, it turned out to be quite Slavic.
          1. nurker
            nurker 22 December 2012 11: 53
            0
            Horde,

            Dear, I pass. You are so convinced and take all this source as the truth that you don’t even want to think otherwise. For you, the English Cat (cat) will not have a common root with the Slavic Cat. as you wrote Tartary is one thing, Tatars are another. These are the works of Levashov, and there is no need to hide behind this: "I took the source, but I am not defending Levashov." And who developed this information weapon for you? Levashov, Trekhlebov. You have outright racism or peaceful fascism.

            And the fact that the Central Asian rulers of the Indo-European appearance is not a secret ... Or you still call each bright European Slav. I am not a decree for you, and on this I would like to end the discussion with you. All the best and success in your work.
            1. Horde
              Horde 22 December 2012 13: 56
              +1
              Quote: nurker
              what girlfriend do not want to even think


              just do not, what do you want to think about?

              For you, the English Cat (cat) will not have a common root with the Slavic Cat.

              that more and more people are beginning to guess the English language compilation from Russian, and by the way from Turkic-Kazakh, but it’s crucial here about Tartaria, the Mongol-Tatars, all this verbal husk created in the era of Catherine by the court Germans Miler, Bayer, Schletzer and others (in at the time of Catherine there were 100 Germans out of 99 academicians of the Germans, one was Loonosov, and there are doubts as well.) As it was called, this great state in those days it is now not known almost all the evidence destroyed by the Germans by FIN is possibly RUSSIA-Horde.

              These are the works of Levashov, and there is no need to hide behind this: "I took the source, but I am not defending Levashov." And who developed this information weapon for you? Levashov, Trekhlebov. You have outright racism or peaceful fascism.


              you are a vindictive man, I’m saying Levashov has nothing to do with it. And do not throw such words.
  • ddmm09
    ddmm09 21 December 2012 13: 07
    +1
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    I, kanesh, understand that you are disgusted by the fact that in the history of Russia there is a lot of non-Russian, and all Russian is great and great, but whatever one may say, the history of the Russian people alone does not fit into the geography of Russia.

    I do not bother, in Russian there is a lot of foreign-borrowed, I even have a surname derived from the Turkic name Mamai, although I am a purebred Slav. As for the Mamelukes, specify for yourself what you mean. This is a military multinational estate that has come to power by military means in Egypt, briefly as I understand it.


    Quote: Marek Rozny
    It’s just clear that the Russian person is unpleasant that once the nomads not only defeated all the Russian principalities, but also ruled for hundreds of years.

    Understand that even the "Secret Legend ..." was brought from China by a Russian Orthodox priest only in the 19th century. All this does not seem strange to you. And from what sources you take information about the role of the Kazakhs in the fate of the Golden Horde, I do not know at all. At the same time, all our neighbors are vying with each other to shout about their leading role in the Golden Horde - the Chinese, Kazakhs, Buryats, Kalmyks, Uzbeks, Kirghiz, etc. Only the Russians, as always, deny it, our historians still say how we suffered from the yoke, how we oppressed, how many of our people were put ... and so on. Only recently began to say that it was a state formation based on the principles of federation.
    I will give an example from the history of other peoples, the Bratsk prison (this is in the territory of the current Irkutsk region) was founded by 15 Cossacks who came to the Angara in the 17th century. These 15 people went around the vast territory, founded a prison, persuaded the local population in the face of the Tungus and drilled to accept Russian citizenship and ordered them to pay yasak. After some time, the Tungus insidiously killed them, setting up an ambush. Then 50 Cossacks came to the prison and the order of obligations was restored. If you listen to the drill, these guys also with foam at the mouth prove that they used our women and that many of them are Genghisides. But their verbal belligerence somehow does not fit in historically, while the Cossacks did not have any cruel violence, mass killings, genocide, finally. Kalmyks are also normal guys until they start remembering Genghis Khan, etc. But they are all descendants of the Mongols, and if they are such cool conquerors, why did they so easily agree to be a citizen of the Russian tsar, I want to especially note this - they accepted without any bloody wars. Moreover, Kalmyks themselves came to our territories from their Dzungaria.
    The defeat that the Kazakhs suffered from the Dzungars was one of the factors contributing to their entry into the Russian Empire. If the Kazakhs are so strong, along with other nomadic peoples, then why did it so happen that only the Russians and Chinese played the key role in this region? Economics is not just a word; I want to bring you to this very thought. The prerequisites for long wars in the form of a strong economy are a prerequisite. If there are few resources, then you simply cannot fight for a long time.

    Quote: Marek Rozny
    And regarding Talgar. Even the name of the clan was given to you - dulates.

    The question for the opponent was about the mass production of weapons from the Kazakhs. If they could take control of vast territories in the era of the Golden Horde, then where did they get so many weapons?
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 13: 51
      0
      1) If your surname is formed on behalf of Mamai, it means that you are probably not that pure Slav. Mamai is a large clan that played a significant role in Russia, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and the Crimea. Even in the blood of the Russian tsars were. Maybe you should look for a little "Tatar" in yourself?
      2) Mamluks are not a nation, no one argues with this here! But the Mamluks in the bulk consisted of Turks. This is a historical fact. The same fact that there were Georgians with Circassians. In a smaller amount. Domestic and foreign studies on the subject above the roof.
      3) The role of Kazakhs in the Golden Horde is based on the countless mentions of the names of the clans that make up the modern Kazakh nation. There are a huge number of sources in Chinese, Arabic, Persian, Turkic. And even in the records of the Vatican ambassadors there is a mention of my Argyns clan. There is no need to imagine that Kazakhs are talking from scratch about their role in the Horde heritage. It has already been repeatedly written here that Kazakhs, like any other nomads, are divided into clans, and information about where they were in the Middle Ages, what they did, to whom they obeyed, with whom they fought is described in sufficient detail. Type "dulats" in a search engine and find a huge number of links to medieval documents.
      4) The Kazakhs eventually defeated the Dzungars. And without Russian help. And let me remind you once again that the Dzungars were Russian subjects. This fact did not save the Dzungars from destruction by the Kazakhs and Manchus. At the same time, the Russians are constantly expressing the opinion to the Kazakhs that the Kazakhs allegedly owe their "miraculous salvation" to the Russian army. Sorry, in what battle did the Russian army soak the Dzungars in the name of the Kazakhs? In the 18th century, when the Kazakhs became part of the Republic of Ingushetia, the Kazakhs were a greatly weakened state. For several centuries in a row, wars have not passed just like that. Moreover, the Russians absolutely ignore the economic reasons for the annexation of the Kazakhs to Russia. But the Kazakhs were interested in Russia as a market for their meat products. You will be amazed when you find out how many million head of cattle were sold annually by the Kazakhs to Russia through Orenburg, Astrakhan, Omsk and other cities. The Kazakhs always had a surplus of cattle and there was practically nowhere to put it. The markets of Central Asia and Uyguria were already packed with Kazakh meat, leather and hides. Only the Russian market remained, but trade was hampered, as was the movement of merchants. Now the Kazakhs are doing the same, offering Russia and other countries to create an economic union. You probably read that the trade turnover between our countries within the CU increased immediately. It is strange that you are talking about the economy, but at the same time you completely ignore the economic realities of the accession of the Kazakhs to the Empire.
      5) Regarding the production of weapons. Once again I am writing. The main weapon Kazakhs made themselves. Read at least Russian sources on the steppe weapons. And the nomads themselves mined the metal and forged everything that was needed. Kazakhs bought some types of steel (such as damask steel) from Central Asian relatives, and they themselves forged pigs into the items they needed. The gunshot was also made by ourselves, as well as gunpowder was made independently. The Dzhungars, when they asked for help from Russia, constantly complained that the Kazakhs made guns and therefore in many battles they lost to the Kazakhs. Then, by the way, Russia began to send firearms to the Dzhungars through the city of Kuznetsk.
      Do you think that the Kazakhs did not have any resources to purchase the necessary goods from their neighbors? Hello, we've arrived. The wealth of the steppe dwellers is countless cattle, which were valued by all neighbors. Even in Soviet times, our entire army, scattered from Vietnam to the GDR, was fed with Kazakh stew. Kazakhs use the expression "Are your cattle healthy?" means a greeting at a meeting, like "How are you?" Meat, skins, fur - this was an inexhaustible Kazakh economic resource.
      1. xan
        xan 21 December 2012 14: 33
        0
        I realized
        Genghisides are all Turkic-speaking, because obviously someone of their kind participated in the army of Genghisides. and the Kazakhs are one of the main, along with the Mughals, if not cooler.
        if the Russians needed it, the Dzungars would have won, you have no doubt.
        and with whom did you fight that were greatly weakened, and for economic reasons became part of the Republic of Ingushetia, can you explain?
        Nenado pull your story on ours. The yoke was a disaster for Russia, cast aside several centuries ago. You can be proud of this, since you were a part of the Horde among many nomadic peoples.
        But where is Russia, and where is the Horde.
      2. nurker
        nurker 21 December 2012 15: 37
        -2
        Marek rozny,
        Hello gentlemen.
        I have carefully read the entire discussion on this article. I noticed the dualism of opinions. The basic law of nature is that any process is twofold: day / night, good / evil .... here the first camp is ardent Slavs or Slavophiles, many of whom profess imperial ideology, like the fans of "Russia is the third Rome". Such people practice little the principle of self-criticism in order to listen to the opponent and make a general analysis, but they defend their FACT. everything from the Russians and everything, the Russians brought writing to the steppe and everything, they opened their eyes, and the fact that Cyril and Methodius are not "Slavs" at all does not bother them. for such people it will always seem that a sedentary culture is better than a nomadic one, "the fact that he has a computer, and I do not, does not mean at all that I do not know how to live." A nomadic culture is better than a sedentary one - is it an axiom (does not require proof) who has lived a lot or who has seen a lot? ask this question to yourself.
        The second camp is the ardent Pan-Turkists in the good sense of the word. Especially "swamps", "Marek Rozny" and others as well. it was very pleasant to read your conjectures and ideology, aimed at offending the Slavophil, I did not notice, they proved many facts from their lives and referring to serious anthropologists and linguists.
        I wanted to draw attention to both the first and the second camp on one thing, draw your own conclusions. The fact is that I saw quite a bit of cause-and-effect relationships in various arguments, and without them, gentlemen, all our hype is just the surface of the ocean, but not deep ... I will give an example: there are probably individuals among you who use cigarettes, and so, ask yourself: "what is the reason why you smoke?" Many will say: "Well, it relaxes me, calms my nerves. But because dad and grandfather smoked. I smoke for the company." Others will say: "I smoke and that's it." but none of them will tell the reason. All that they would not say is the whole consequence. He has that the death of his parents was the reason for smoking ... ask this question, you are people, not drug addicts. Let everyone make their own choice.
        And now about the topic ... under the cause-and-effect relations of the Turks, Slavs, I understand a reasonable scientific explanation of certain factors that made a particular nation act in one way or another. what is the reason that the Türks began to leave the eastern regions and moved west: the first contact of the Türks was Attila, the Huns and the Roman nude empire (here humor, do not judge) that made the Slavs adopt the language and culture of society among the Türks and other peoples .. without understanding cause-effect relationships, we will not build any picture of antiquity and other eras. for example, harem pants or halbar are modern trousers, and no people wore trousers in Europe ... why did the steppe men sew trousers, since it is convenient when riding in lushadi, etc. ... there are no cases ...
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 21 December 2012 17: 30
          +2
          Quote: nurker
          I carefully read all the discussion on this article. I noticed the dualism of opinions. The basic law of nature is that any process is twofold: day / night, good / evil .... here the first camp is ardent Slavists or Slavophiles

          nurker, thank you for taking the Slavophiles to the camp of good.
          Everything else is written by you, apparently, to cover the tracks)
    2. Cossack Ermak
      Cossack Ermak 25 June 2014 14: 14
      0
      And the attack on the Kazakhs by the Dzungars was caused by the Chinese genocide of the latter. Over a dozen years, several million have been carved.
  • ddmm09
    ddmm09 21 December 2012 13: 41
    +3
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Soviet history abruptly dealt with the Varangians; all their campaigns in the territory of the USSR were declared Slavic.

    What kind of hiking?
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 21 December 2012 13: 57
      0
      Hrereka and his sons and grandchildren - all sorts of Ingvars, Helgov, Khlefrov and Svendslejvy from the 9th century to the 11th until they were glorified with their squads. And then they took even long wives from the Varangian tribe.
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 21 December 2012 17: 37
        +2
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Hrereka and his sons and grandchildren - all sorts of Ingvars, Helgov, Khlefrov and Svendslejvy from the 9th century to the 11th until they were glorified with their squads. And then they took even long wives from the Varangian tribe.

        These or what?

        Ingvar, Truvor and Helgi on the Neva
  • ddmm09
    ddmm09 21 December 2012 14: 15
    +2
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Well, and about the fact that the KZ purchases weapons in Russia, Russia also purchases naval weapons from Kazakhstan (torpedoes and all kinds of different things). Even from the Kyrgyz, Russia buys torpedoes. And during the Second World War, generally 9 out of 10 bullets were made thanks to Kazakhstan.

    You don’t tell me about torpedoes, my father worked for a long time at a military factory - the plant named after Kirov in Alma-Ata, where these torpedoes were fired. On the lake Issykul conducted their test, etc. If your Baikonur cosmodrome is on your territory, this does not mean that Kazakhstan is a space power.
    If some kind of torpedo production is preserved in your region, it is only because we have not yet created a similar enterprise.
  • ddmm09
    ddmm09 21 December 2012 14: 41
    0
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Hrereka and his sons and grandchildren - all sorts of Ingvars, Helgov, Khlefrov and Svendslejvy from the 9th century to the 11th until they were glorified with their squads. And then they took even long wives from the Varangian tribe.

    And what does the Varangians campaign in Russia ?! Calling to Russia was in the Tale of Bygone Years ... Nobody writes about campaigns anywhere.

    Marek rozny,
    I went to the off. site of the plant Kirov - they write that they don’t let out torpedoes, but they release spare parts for submarines.
  • ddmm09
    ddmm09 21 December 2012 15: 18
    0
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    then probably you aren’t such a pure Slav.

    The Cossacks did not have childbirth, the origin of the surname could also be from the place of initial residence. There were no Tatars in the relatives of Nicodegus.

    Quote: Marek Rozny
    The role of the Kazakhs in the Golden Horde is built on countless references to the names of the clans ...

    I want to remind you that I was not in vain citing the history of the Mamelukes as an example. Numerous artifacts have survived from their era - publications of everyday life, art, clothing, etc. All that they brought to or taken away from them. Where is everything that was stolen in Russia that would have been preserved somewhere in the territory of the Mongols, Kazakhs, Buryats, Kyrgyz and even Uzbeks ?! Traces of this should be, though tiny, but should. If Russia traded or fought with someone from ancient times, then in our museums or during excavations, such artifacts are still found. I really see them in the form of exhibits in the museum, with dating, rust marks, broken, etc., but they are. Something similar from the evidence I want to find from you. Written by someone and somewhere else is another. Claiming your high role in the Golden Horde, try to prove the fact that this role still took place. For 100-200-300 years to rob, take away to yourself and ultimately not provide a single artifact or evidence that you turned out to be owners of huge or not very wealth - this at least raises doubts: was it?
  • nurker
    nurker 21 December 2012 15: 50
    0
    Many people argue about history, but few, even among scientists, give an objective opinion of the creation of history (that is, in other words, the history that the Earth "saw", and not the one that is based on understanding a purely subjective opinion, that is, private understanding)

    in my opinion there is a certain cyclical nature of the processes of the Earth. for example, temperature drop and warming, and this cycle also changes ...

    in the first migration of peoples, the factor probably played a major role in a cooling, the steppes became unacceptable conditions and a certain part of the Proturks or the glorious (in depth they are similar) to Europe, especially the basins of the Black Sea and rivers played an exceptional role in that migration, and only nomads could move - this is also an axiom ... these pro-Turk or Slavs remained to rule in those lands and drove out many other indigenous peoples, in particular the Finno-Ugric and others. faith was monotheistic - faith "upward" as the sun, sky, moon, stars are on top. it is then that these peoples and tribes are attached to various false faiths, Hungarians in Catholics, Slavs under Orthodoxy. I don't want to offend anyone, but none of these religions can stand up to any criticism ... engage in self-criticism and ask yourself, your soul ... look for answers ... then the so-called Turks came to the role of resettlement, here you need to understand by the Turks not a nationality, but a confederation of tribes speaking Turkic and living in Turkic ... Subsequently, these Turks also assimilated among other civilizations, but left many of their rituals ... many adopted Islam due to time, many Christianity, Buddhism, but forgot their religion, the purest, is Slavism, not from the term of nationality, but Slavism - These are glorifying Gods, and God is all heaven with luminaries ... advertising may have sounded, but I think this better explains causal relationships than other ideologies. you can knock on the wall as you like, but the Earth and people could not appear in 7 days. in the same way, the peoples did not descend to the earth from the air and with their language ... by this I want to say that the language was also formed, there are reasons for its formation ... I advise you to read the works of Olzhas Suleimenov "The Smile of God", "Language of Writing" http: // kitap.net.ru/sulejmenov/index.php
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 21 December 2012 16: 15
      +2
      Quote: nurker
      Subsequently, these Turks also assimilated among other civilizations, but left many of their rites ... many converted to Islam by virtue of time, many Christianity, Buddhism, but forgot their religion, the purest, it is Slavism, not from the term of nationality, but Slavism - These are glorious God, and God is all heaven with lights ...

      Well, this version is no worse than the others expressed earlier.
      It means the Slavs are not the people at all, but those who have kept the correct faith (sorry for the tongue-tied tongue). I think some people might like this option. Some of those who push the role of the Slavic ethnic group into the backyard of world history.
      1. Beck
        Beck 21 December 2012 23: 52
        +1
        Quote: Flood
        It means the Slavs are not the people at all, but those who have kept the correct faith (sorry for the tongue-tied tongue). I think some people might like this option. Some of those who push the role of the Slavic ethnic group into the backyard of world history.


        Respected. As far as I read carefully, not only my fellow countryman did not speak bad words about the Slavs. Slavs are one of the largest ethnic and linguistic strata of mankind. The Russian people are one of the great nations of the world both in terms of investing their share in world culture and science in creating the largest empire in the world.

        It’s just that the history of the Türks was on the fringes of Soviet textbooks throughout Soviet time. The attachment of history textbooks to Turkology was limited to a few words - a yurt, a steppe, a ram, a shepherd. The works of the great Russian historians - Gumilyov, Klyashtorny did not fit into the outline of history textbooks, were not published in the mass press. All this caused some neglect of some Russians towards the Turks.

        And only in the years of perestroika did the mass of documents and historical materials open where the history of the Turks began to differ from the cliche. Personally, I was amazed, since it turned out that I did not know the true history of my own people. I had to learn history anew. And now on the site no one wants to belittle Russian history. We just want to show the natural interweaving of the stories and destinies of two neighboring peoples living side by side of the millennium. Well, our fates cannot not intertwine, do not interact with each other.
  • nurker
    nurker 21 December 2012 18: 20
    +1
    Flooding,

    I don’t know who will like it or not, but one thing is clear. Humanity, after all, in the most general feature has one root, and humanity came out of nature and nothing else. If every nation descended from some kind of humanoid pals, then now obviously not one nation would understand each other well, as we do not understand a word like a dog, like a cat ... Or there are people among you who understand -dogs? well tell me. By this I wanted to say that there is a certain base of the language, that is, the thought process ... whether you are an Englishman, French, Russian, Kazakh, but if you have a small child, he will understand your index finger in any language and look where you indicate. Well, point your finger to the wild chimpanzee from the jungle, I'm sure the chimpanzee won't understand this gesture, and this is the basis, but when we argue on the surface of the ocean "about anything" the matter will not move, from this approach we will not understand history, so we need to dive into this crazy ocean, and not to argue with facts: the Slavs are, the Chinese are ...

    Or are there those who believe that the Slavs from Atlantis? that the ancient country of Asgard, and the Slavs flew into Atlantis from space? you believe in it (the phrase applies to everyone)

    Hello gentlemen.
    I have carefully read the entire discussion on this article. I noticed the dualism of opinions. The basic law of nature is that any process is twofold: day / night, good / evil .... here the first camp is ardent Slavs or Slavophiles, many of whom profess imperial ideology, like the fans of "Russia is the third Rome". Such people practice little the principle of self-criticism in order to listen to the opponent and make a general analysis, but they defend their FACT. everything from the Russians and everything, the Russians brought writing to the steppe and everything, they opened their eyes, and the fact that Cyril and Methodius are not "Slavs" at all does not bother them. for such people it will always seem that a sedentary culture is better than a nomadic one, "the fact that he has a computer, and I do not, does not mean at all that I do not know how to live." A nomadic culture is better than a sedentary one - is it an axiom (does not require proof) who has lived a lot or who has seen a lot? ask this question to yourself.
    The second camp is the ardent Pan-Turkists in the good sense of the word. Especially "swamps", "Marek Rozny" and others as well. it was very pleasant to read your conjectures and ideology, aimed at offending the Slavophil, I did not notice, they proved many facts from their lives and referring to serious anthropologists and linguists.
    1. nurker
      nurker 21 December 2012 18: 25
      0
      nurker,
      I wanted to draw attention to both the first and the second camp on one thing, draw your own conclusions. The fact is that I saw quite a bit of cause-and-effect relationships in various arguments, and without them, gentlemen, all our hype is just the surface of the ocean, but not deep ... I will give an example: there are probably individuals among you who use cigarettes, and so, ask yourself: "what is the reason why you smoke?" Many will say: "Well, it relaxes me, calms my nerves. But because dad and grandfather smoked. I smoke for the company." Others will say: "I smoke and that's it." but none of them will tell the reason. All that they would not say is the whole consequence. He has that the death of his parents was the reason for smoking ... ask this question, you are people, not drug addicts. Let everyone make their own choice.
      And now about the topic. Under the cause-and-effect relations of the Turks, the Slavs, I understand the reasonable scientific explanation of certain factors that caused this or that people to act one way or another. what is the reason that the Türks began to leave the eastern regions and moved west: the first contact of the Türks was Attila, the Huns and the Roman naked empire (here humor, do not judge) that made the Slavs adopt the language and culture of society among the Türks and other peoples .. without understanding cause-effect relationships, we will not build any picture of antiquity and other eras. for example, harem pants or halbar are modern trousers, and no people wore trousers in Europe ... why did the steppe men sew trousers, since it is convenient when riding in lushadi and so on ... there are no casesnurker,
  • tomket
    tomket 21 December 2012 22: 58
    0
    people! don’t you listen to the opinion of the Don Cossack? I was born and raised on the Don near the Kazanka and the village of Veshenskaya. The quiet Don don’t know, how many people I lived, I didn’t see the Turks in my neighbors or Kazakhs, and if someone mixed our blood, it’s RUSSIAN and UKRAINIAN peoples! Everything! Stop clinging to the Cossacks!
    1. nurker
      nurker 21 December 2012 23: 24
      -1
      We are listening to you dear, we are listening, it’s a pity the people have already untied this topic for a while, the end of the LIGHT is more important ...
    2. Beck
      Beck 22 December 2012 00: 08
      0
      Quote: tomket
      All! Stop clinging to the Cossacks!


      Who is clinging to right now? Not about today. Who said that today Don Cossacks speak Turkic? It is about 200-1000 years ago. On the circumstances and conditions of the emergence of such an institution as the Cossacks.
      1. tomket
        tomket 22 December 2012 15: 55
        -1
        but if as an option that the Cossacks came and drove the Turkic peoples from the Don? how do you like this? quite a theory)
    3. xan
      xan 22 December 2012 02: 10
      +1
      tomket,
      Don Cossacks are the people?
      But how do they differ from the Russians?
      and why all of a sudden everyone wants to cling to the Cossacks?
      1. tomket
        tomket 22 December 2012 15: 57
        -2
        Well, Turks and Kazakhs are anointed) English Cossack hundreds in the article
    4. Lignitz
      Lignitz 23 December 2012 14: 58
      0
      Can you answer a few questions? What was the name of the first Don Cossack? And Kuban? Maybe you are aware that the Don Cossack Ermak was called in Kazakh? Do you know the name Khabarov as translated from Kazakh (Erofei Pavlovich Khabarov founded Khabarovsk ...)? So I do not advise you to promise that I have not met Kazakhs, Turks, etc. Where did the name of the village of Mechetinskaya come from? Karakorum? Did the Russians really call them that?
      1. xan
        xan 25 December 2012 23: 08
        0
        Wow!
        I have a Greek name, am I now chtoli Greek?
        all whom you list are Russian, spoke Russian and Orthodox
        we have a lot of these in history
  • tomket
    tomket 21 December 2012 23: 58
    0
    The dispute was interesting, at least argued
  • Setrac
    Setrac 21 December 2012 23: 59
    +2
    The latest archaeological excavations say that the Slavs live on the Don for a very long time, millennia BC.
    And why couldn't the Scandinavians adopt the architecture from the Slavs? Study geology, Scandinavia rises and a thousand years ago its area was much smaller, for example, the fertile plains of Sweden were under water.
    And the Slavic territories were already called Gardarika - the country of cities, and now tell us how the Russians adopt architecture from the Khanty and Chukchi.
    Dad smoked, grandfather smoked, I don’t smoke, and I think smokers are near-minded people.
    I will say this to the pan-Turkists: the opposition of the Russian sedentaries to the nomadic Turks, as well as the confrontation between Russia and Turkey, are propaganda from the West, they sleep and see that we kill each other and bang the Chinese along the way.
    1. Beck
      Beck 22 December 2012 00: 09
      +2
      Quote: Setrac
      The latest archaeological excavations say that the Slavs live on the Don for a very long time, millennia BC.


      You wrote this koment yesterday. If you want, read my koment above. About Indo-Europeans.
    2. nurker
      nurker 22 December 2012 00: 14
      -1
      Have you read Levashov ??? only honestly.
  • tomket
    tomket 22 December 2012 00: 19
    -2
    Indo-Europeans are you talking about gypsies ????
    1. Beck
      Beck 22 December 2012 00: 27
      +3
      Quote: tomket
      Indo-Europeans are you talking about gypsies ????


      Why about gypsies. The Indo-European family includes Slavs, Germans, Romans. Gypsies are a late rendition of the Indo-Aryans. And the full answer is in my comment above.
      1. tomket
        tomket 22 December 2012 15: 53
        -1
        compare the German and the gypsy, I think the first one will correct something on your face)
  • nurker
    nurker 22 December 2012 01: 14
    +1
    It's funny that this map was not known in Soviet times, but how the collapse was, it immediately came out as an alternative story. The development in this direction of history was greatly contributed by Levashov, with his great tartaria. By the way, he himself lived about 15 years abroad. this is the so-called Solzhenitsyn in the era of Stalin, who understood he understood.

    Dear, when you were told that Soviet textbooks hid the origin of the Türks, it did not mean that there were no Soviet historians of Turkologists ...

    and by the way, the map once again confirms that the Kazakhs are a free people.

    you see three green areas on the map: in the east, south-west and north-west, between them a scarlet large territory, divide it into north and south and in the southern part read TARTARIE INDEPENDENTE, which literally can be translated as free Tatars, and now taking into account the fact that the Europeans did not separate clans and tribes, then for them all these are Tatars, not in the ethnic sense, but in the sense that they are "not Christians", that is, not literally Slavs.

    http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2012/275/efcd884.jpg
  • nurker
    nurker 22 December 2012 01: 33
    0
    Horde Today, 00:58 ↑ new
    0 http://video.yandex.ru/users/taksi12/view/3/?cauthor=tantrido&cid=8

    this is not a book this is Levashov’s movie, there are a lot of absurd facts, but about the fact that the speech was given at the funeral of Karl11 in Russian, there are still confirmations, I can’t find yet.

    Quote Report Site Violation

    nurker Today, 01:32 a new
    0 And you are aware that a criminal case was opened on Levashev and Trekhlebov.

    The elect of God is racism, in this matter they answered ...
    Dear, at least turn your head on when you watch such films, and always analyze cause-effect relationships, with such films as people like you preparing for the army of Nazi Slavs, this is a Roman chocolate wrapped in another candy wrapper to let it through, and people are tired of everyone religions and scholars, and you got caught on another hook.

    I recommend that you familiarize yourself with Major General Petrov K.P. and with lectures on the Concept of Public Security, who really have Slavic goals
  • GOLUBENKO
    GOLUBENKO 22 December 2012 03: 09
    -1
    . Moreover, in the middle of the XNUMXth century, under Joseph Stalin, for a short time и create a protectorate over almost the entire territory of the Great Mongol Empire,

    I read all this nonsense with fantasy elements.
    I congratulate you comrades, it turns out the Soviet people = and, including the residents of the Ukrainian SSR, as I understand it. With all this, this is written by a person with the surname Volgin.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 22 December 2012 12: 43
    +2
    I'm pretty tired of this discussion. The Fomenkovites and other alternatives are very strange people. They look like Kazakh boys who want to believe that King Arthur was Kazakh. But they grow up and then do not carry such nonsense. And the "Fomenkovites" - people, it would seem, adults, and all sorts of garbage toil. Genghis Khan was not, there were no Turks on the territory of Russia. Batu is the Vatican, Tokhtamysh and Aksak Temirlan - Russian princes, Arabic script - Russian writing and other nonsense. Any misunderstandings are swept aside with shouts: "It was the cunning West who made a fake! It is the evil Kazakhs who steal our history!" etc. To be honest, I'm in a daze from their logic. Convincing and proving something on the internet in this format is pointless. This, I think, will be healed over time, when a critical mass of doubts about the Fomenkovism accumulates in their heads. In the meantime, with the fervor of neophytes, they will soak ignorance with axes, proving that "Russian genes are the most ancient in the world, and in general Russians descended from the best monkeys, unlike their neighbors." I am exaggerating, kanesh, but even in this forum, sometimes such pearls are found that at least stand, at least fall. And the lack of evidence is easily replaced, in their opinion, by emotionality and firmness of position.
    In the era of the Romanovs, they tried not to notice the Turkic period of history, the policy of Russia was absolutely tilted towards Germanism. In Soviet times, the idea of ​​a pathological enmity between the two worlds began to be hammered into their heads, fostering the image of "long-suffering Russia, which defeated everyone," which is only the statement that Europe owes Russia the fact that Russians allegedly played the role of a shield to the Western world ... “shame” was laid in the Russian mentality for the age-old humiliation inflicted by the Horde. As a result, the collective intelligence of all Nosov-Fomenko-others gave birth to a new theory, in which there was no conquest from the East, and all these nomads are in fact simple Russian peasants. Lyapota! Now you can finally sleep peacefully at night, without suffering from resentment that some "unwashed" Asian ruled the Motherland for several centuries.
    I suggest Fomenkovtsy to develop a theory. Fascists did not exist. In fact, these are the Russian peoples who at one time founded the German state (the founder was the Ryazan tradesman German Nemtsov). Then it will not be a shame that the Germans reached Moscow in 1941. The same Slavs kicked the Red Army to the Kremlin walls. And you are not ashamed to lose to your own. Moreover, then Russia was ruled by non-Russians, and Georgians. The Russians of the USSR were waiting for the brothers to come to their senses, but because Aleksey Hitler (Supreme Boyar of Germanushka), entering the Russian rage, could not stop, then the Siberians and the Far East (a special caste of the Russian people, descended from the Atlanteans) had to mash the sides of the Western Russian brothers. Well, and comrade Alyosha Hitler, though late, repented of his crimes before the Russian Motherland, and realizing that he could no longer look into the eyes of the Russian people - he was poisoned. This is the power of the spirit! Only a Slav could so radically experience a sense of shame before his Motherland! Here she is - a mysterious Russian soul.
    Z.Y. There was no lendliz. Sherman and Churchill - Russian tanks. There are many documents in Russian that mention the names of these tanks. And English-language documents do not exist in nature. And what is shown on the internet is a fake from the Vatican.
    1. Horde
      Horde 22 December 2012 15: 12
      0
      why so many words? and so much without the use of time spent on the Internet? It seems that you are being compensated for the loss of time with something else. This is just the case when the number of words will never turn into quality. Want to draw a line under what you have said.
      There was no Mongol-Tatar conquest because there is practically NO EVIDENCE.
      -the state existed from 14-16th to FIN Russia -Orda is also the Great Empire. The proof is old maps of different peoples of the world and much more.
      -all discrepancies in cultural interaction between Russian and Turkic are explained only by one Russian people was BILINGUAL, spoke Russian and Tatar and, accordingly, the Russians were both Orthodox and professing Islam.
      - Cossacks and Tatars in different sources are one and the same concept. And the concept is for Russian people as huge as the size of Great Tartary.
      -with the collapse of the empire, from the end of the 18th century on, the small peoples of the Kyrgyz Republic, later the Kazakhs, began to enter the world stage. Since they lived nearby, they therefore have many similarities in culture in the way of life.
      - Cossacks, as the guards and soldiers of the Great Country in history, have the most, the Cossack world is almost destroyed, but in the memory of the people and the efforts of Russian scientists we can appreciate all the merits of the soldiers of the EMPIRE that have come down to us.
    2. knn54
      knn54 31 January 2013 17: 08
      -1
      Batu-BATU HAN. It somehow reminds ... VATICAN. So whose yoke was that? It is said that some of the cardinals in the Vatican do not deny this version.
      By the way, 40 years ago the novel "Areya's Sword" was published (in Ukrainian). The author argued that Attila is the Slavic prince Gatylo. True, the book was quickly banned by the Soviet censorship and it was withdrawn from shops and libraries.
  • nurker
    nurker 22 December 2012 13: 51
    0
    Horde,
    Marek rozny,

    Address to all representatives of Homo Razumos. In my opinion, one should no longer pay attention to the representatives of the works of Fomenko-Nosovsky and Levashev. Fomenko-Nosovsky had an interesting idea, but the implementation of the idea was erroneous, with errors in calculating various calendars.

    Dear Horde ... You either refute and support the failure of the Scaligerian version, then you suddenly get the TSB and say something else from it. You can easily say that the Slavs did not have slavery, and it was Peter the Great who was to blame for the serf reforms, you can easily jump and say no, the Slavs were poor and were slaves to evil Europeans. Slave in English subordinate. slave.
    Slavs in English Slavs. What is it? coincidence and coincidence? There are no accidents, chop on the nose

    For you, there is nothing similar between the Jewish "bondage" and the Slavic "mare" and those and those peoples called the female horse that way or whatever it is correct.
    1. Horde
      Horde 22 December 2012 15: 26
      -4
      Quote: nurker
      Slavs in English Slavs. What is it? coincidence and coincidence? There are no accidents, chop on the nose


      English rudeness, arrogance and permissiveness stem from the weakness of Russia conquered, but not conquered. The heavy yoke that the Russian people have been pulling for 400 years cannot realize themselves under the yoke of strangers who are constantly at the head of our state (except for STALIN).

      For you, there is nothing similar between the Jewish "bondage" and the Slavic "mare" and those and those peoples called the female horse that way or whatever it is correct.


      I don’t know about the bondage-mare, but I know something else
      CAVALERY, according to TI, the Latin word from here is CABALLERE-nobleman (it.) Or CHEVALIERE-nobleman (fr.) So it’s amusing to realize that all these nobles are simply MOBILE there is no such word, but there is the concept of CAVALERY-MOBILE. smile like this!
  • Beck
    Beck 22 December 2012 18: 27
    +2
    Here, on the site, most Russians are brought up on the history of Great Russia, and that’s good. But there are some educated not on history, but on Great Russian chauvinism, and this is not exclusiveness, all peoples have a similar thing. And when the writings of pseudo historians are superimposed on greatness, a mossy, birch-like type is obtained that does not want to see anything Russian around itself.

    And he sits this type in a den with a computer, reads and throws his cues.

    The Türks had writing from the 6-7th century. - "Yes, not h ... I myself !?"
    Some of the Turks were engaged in agriculture. - "Well, not h ... I myself !?"
    The Turks built cities in the Middle Ages. - "Finally not x ... I myself !?"
    The Turks created nomadic states. - "That's really not x ... I myself !?"
    There was a kind of steppe culture. - "Wow ... am I !?"

    Then this type, with his paw, knocks out the answer on the keyboard. - "Well, fuck ... th !!! All this is a lie, p ... you are here and a provocation! I said so."
    1. nurker
      nurker 22 December 2012 19: 11
      0
      Beck,

      Something is very true said. What do you think? does humanity have common roots?

      Horde. Describe what the Slavs and Russians should look like.
      1. Horde
        Horde 22 December 2012 19: 59
        +1
        Horde. Describe what the Slavs and Russians should look like.


        please, here are the Russians!
        1. nurker
          nurker 22 December 2012 20: 31
          -1
          Horde,

          The concept of Russian has completely different roots ....
          1. Horde
            Horde 22 December 2012 20: 34
            +1
            The concept of Russian has completely different roots ...


            is also Russian!
      2. Beck
        Beck 22 December 2012 21: 12
        +1
        Quote: nurker
        What do you think? does humanity have common roots?


        Of course have. All archaeological, geological, gene surveys speak of one thing. All peoples of the world have one root. Our common ancestor formed in one place. And to the great chagrin of all racists and nationalists in East Africa. Modern Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya. And our common ancestor was black and curly. Somewhere around 60-80 thousand years ago, through the Arabian Peninsula, man began to settle in all the continents. And adjusting to a particular climate changed its anthropological data.

        Humanity settled in groups of families. And gradually the community of language was losing. The language was divided into adverbs, groups. As soon as a person settled, the unification of people in ever larger formations began. With the ultimate goal of creating a single humanity. Families began to unite in childbirth. Childbirth in the tribe. Tribes to the nations. Peoples in a nation.

        Now the process of uniting nations into single ethno-territorial associations with the unification of languages ​​has begun. Examples. Diverse, but the only Americans in the state. United Europe. By the will of history, multinational Russia and China. Construction of the Eurasian Union. And in these conglomerations a single language is developed. In the future, these conglomerations will unite into a single state - the planet Earth, into a single nation - earthlings. Then, living creatures of other planets will become foreigners for us. And as a result of assimilation, a single anthropological type of earthlings will be developed.

        After all, it is impossible to imagine that in a thousand years, at the meeting of our spacecraft with an alien, our astronauts will say this. One will say - I am American, and the other - I am Russian. They will say - We are Earthlings from planet Earth.

        And at all times, a newborn was born without a nationality, he was born - a HUMAN. Someone, an Englishman, a Russian, an Iranian, he became depending on what language he was taught. After all, language gives self-awareness. If you take a newborn Papuan and educate him in a Russian family, then he will grow up with self-awareness of Russianness.

        And all of our nations today, languages, states will remain carefully preserved facts of past history. Just as we are now preserving the facts of civilization of ancient Greece, India, Egypt, Mesopotamia. Because this is not only the story of the Egyptians and Greeks, this is the history of mankind.

        And if everything will be as I described, and it will be so, there is no other way. It’s stupid to clutch at the ax of national superiority of some over others today.
        1. nurker
          nurker 22 December 2012 22: 29
          -1
          Beck,

          Yes, you said it right. Due to climatic, social, regional conditions, humanity has changed ... We are all from the same roots, not in the sense of Adam and Eve, the ancient priests came up with this myth, and not from one monkey, it does not happen. Imagine that a tiger and a lion are from the same cat, but by virtue of adaptation each of them has its own characteristics, but the structure is the same. And mankind is much more confused, because they are the owners of the mind, by virtue of their concepts, the concepts of the priests, one people competed with another, and this is the principle of history.
  • nurker
    nurker 22 December 2012 20: 52
    +2
    nurker,

    Russian is a way of life, it is like a firmware or an operating system of a person, an ideological view, therefore there are the concepts of Russian German, Russian Tatar, Russian Kazakh, Russian Georgian. Even Stalin said: "I am a Russian person of Georgian nationality"

    There is the concept of "Russian Jew", Russian Mordvin, and summarizing the people living on the same land, the Russian people said.

    Slav and Russian other things ... Anyone could be Russian, even me.

    Pushkin A.S. - a descendant of the Moorish rulers, Peter the Great adopted his ancestor. Karamzin - The work wrote the history of the Russian State, Tatar, start scrubbing every Russian and you will find a Tatar, there is a popular expression.
  • aviamed90
    aviamed90 23 December 2012 13: 49
    +2
    For those in doubt, I recommend reading the book by Andrey Andreevich Gordeev "History of the Cossacks" (Moscow, publishing house "Veche", 2007).
    Mr. Gordeev is a hereditary Don Cossack, a front-line officer (he served in the Don Cossack Army). Written work in the 20-e years in Paris in exile. In the USSR, it was naturally banned.
    The book describes roughly the same thing as in the article. In addition, the book was written on the basis of the knowledge of Russian history that was officially taught at the imperial military schools at one time.
    Very interesting work! There is something to think about! Recommend.