Tank Lend-Lease. Great Britain

159
Tank Lend-Lease. Great Britain

Germans inspect the padded British tank "Matilda"


“The Germans will pass through Russia like a hot knife through butter”, “Russia will be defeated within 10 weeks” - the alarming reports of experts from the Foreign Office increasingly troubled Churchill. The course of hostilities on the Eastern Front did not give reason to doubt these disgusting predictions - the Red Army is surrounded and broken, Minsk fell on June 28. Very soon, Great Britain will once again be left alone in the face of an even stronger Reich, which received the resources and industrial bases of the USSR. In the light of such events, the United Kingdom and the United States agreed to only sell weapons and military materials to the Soviet Union.

On August 16, 1941, when Soviet soldiers fought exhausting battles on the outskirts of Kiev, Smolensk and Leningrad, in London, British politicians signed an important agreement on the provision of a new loan to the USSR for a period of 5 years (10 million pounds, at 3% per annum). At the same time, in Washington, the Soviet ambassador was handed a note on economic assistance, which contained a proposal to place Soviet defense orders at American enterprises on favorable terms. Big Business rules are simple: Cash & Carry - "pay and take".

A week later, the situation took a new, unexpected for British and American politicians. A miracle occurred on the Eastern Front - the Red Army moved from an unorganized indiscriminate retreat to a retreat with battles, the Wehrmacht was firmly stuck in heavy battles near Smolensk, the German army suffered heavy losses - all Blitzkrieg plans were thwarted.

“Russians will be able to survive the winter. It makes a huge difference: England will get a long respite. Even if Germany suddenly triumphs, she will be so weakened that she can no longer organize an invasion of the British Isles. ” The new report changed the position of the British government - now everything had to be done so that the Soviet Union would last as long as possible.

Simple and cruel logic

Over the past half century, “Lend-Lease” has been overgrown with many myths and legends - what kind of program it was, what were its conditions and significance for the USSR during the war, these questions are the causes of heated disputes between staunch supporters of anti-Western policies “paid in gold for useless junk” and lovers of democratic values ​​“America has nobly extended a helping hand”. In fact, everything is much more interesting.

The Lend-Lease Bill is just an American law passed by 11 March 1941 of the year. The meaning of the document is simple to ugliness: it was decided to provide the maximum possible material and technical assistance to everyone who fights against fascism - otherwise, there was a risk of surrender to Great Britain and the USSR (at least, it seemed so to transatlantic strategists), and America would remain alone with the Third Reich. Before the Americans there was a choice:
a) go under bullets;
b) get up to the machine.
Of course, supporters of the point “bE” won overwhelmingly, especially the conditions at the American factories were even nothing compared to Tankograd or the industries evacuated outside the Urals.

Assembly "Matilda"

Deliveries from overseas were calculated as follows:

- what died in battle is not payable. As the saying goes, what fell is missing;

- after the war, the equipment that survived the battles had to be returned or, otherwise, redeemed. In fact, they acted even easier: under the supervision of the American commission, equipment was destroyed on the spot, for example, “Aero Cobras” and “Thunderbolts” ruthlessly crushed tanks. Naturally, at the sight of such vandalism, Soviet specialists could not hold back a tear - therefore, urgently, taking into account the Russian ingenuity, documents were forged, the equipment was "destroyed in battle" in absentia, and "what fell, then disappeared." They managed to save a lot.

You need to clearly understand that land-lease is NOT CHARITY. This is an element of a well-designed defense strategy, primarily in the interests of the United States. When signing Lend-Lease Protocols, Americans thought least of all about Russian soldiers dying somewhere near Stalingrad.

The Soviet Union never paid for Lend-Lease in gold; we paid for the supply with the blood of our soldiers. That was the meaning of the American program: Soviet soldiers go under the bullets, American workers go to the factories (otherwise soon American workers will have to go under the bullets). All the talk about “paying off the billionth debt, which the USSR does not want to return for 70 years” is ignorant talk. Only payment for surviving property officially left after the war in the national economy of the Soviet Union (power stations, railway transport, long-distance telephone communication nodes) is discussed. This is a few percent. Americans do not claim more - they know the price of lend-lease better than we do.

Matilda loading in port

In the autumn of 1941, the UK, itself receiving assistance from overseas, decided to apply this scheme in relation to the USSR. The Russians are fighting - we are doing everything so that they will hold out as long as possible, otherwise the British will have to fight. Simple and brutal logic of survival.

Regarding the infamous cruiser Edinburgh, on board which was 5,5 tons of Soviet gold - this was the payment for supplies made before the Lend-Lease Act was extended to the USSR (22 June 1941 g. - October 1941 g.)

The first wishes of the Soviet Union regarding the volume and composition of foreign supplies were very prosaic: Arms! Give us more weapons! Aircraft and tanks!
Wishes were taken into account - October 11 1941. The first 20 British Matilda tanks arrived in Arkhangelsk. In total, until the end of 1941, 466 tanks and 330 armored personnel carriers were delivered to the USSR from the UK.

It should be emphasized that British armored vehicles - this is clearly not something that could change the situation on the Eastern Front. For a more sober assessment of Lend-Lease, you should look at other things.For example, deliveries of trucks and jeeps (car lend-lease) or food supplies (4,5 million tons).

The value of "Matilda" and "Valentine" was small, but, nevertheless, "foreign cars" were actively used in the Red Army, and, it happened, remained the only machines on the strategically important areas. For example, in 1942, the troops of the North Caucasus Front were in a difficult situation - being cut off from the main industrial bases of the Urals and Siberia, they were 70% manned with foreign armored vehicles that came along the "Iran corridor".


The best British medium tank "Cromwell". Analogue T-34. Not delivered en masse in the USSR


In total, during the Great Patriotic War, the 7162 units of British armored vehicles arrived in the Soviet Union: light and heavy tanks, armored personnel carriers, bridge layers. About 800 machines, according to foreign data, were lost along the way.
The list of arriving vehicles that filled the ranks of the Red Army is well known:

- 3332 tank "Vallentaine" Mk.III,

- 918 tanks "Matilda" Mk.II,

- 301 tank "Churchill",

- 2560 of Universal armored personnel carriers,

- tanks "Cromwell", "Tetrarch", as well as specialized vehicles in quantities unworthy of mention.

It should be noted that the concept of "United Kingdom" implies all the countries of the British Commonwealth, because, in fact, Valentine's 1388 tanks were actually assembled in Canada.

Also, in 1944 year 1590 repair shops it was delivered from Canada to equip mobile tank repair plants and armored units, include: machine shops A3 and D3, electromechanical workshop (on the chassis of the GMC 353 truck), a mobile charging station OFP-3 and electrofusion workshop KL-3 (on the Canadian Ford F60L and Ford F15A chassis, respectively).

From a technical point of view, the British tanks were not perfect. In many ways, this contributed to the wonderful classification of combat vehicles and their division into "infantry" and "cruising" tanks.

The "infantry tanks" were machines of direct support: slow, well-protected monsters to overcome defensive lines, destroy enemy fortifications and firing points.
“Cruising tanks”, on the contrary, were light and fast tanks with minimal protection and small caliber weapons, designed for deep breakthroughs and swift raids on the enemy’s rear.

Wounded "Valentine" in the region of r. Istra

In principle, the idea of ​​an "infantry tank" looks quite attractive - according to this concept, the Soviet KV and IS-2 were created - highly protected tanks for assault operations. Where high mobility is not required, and priority is given to heavy armor and powerful weapons.

Alas, in the case of British armored vehicles, a sound idea was hopelessly ruined by the quality of performance: "Matilda" and "Churchill" were hypertrophied in the direction of increasing security. British designers failed to combine the conflicting requirements of armor, mobility and firepower in the same design - as a result, the Matilda, which was not inferior in booking HF, turned out to be extremely slow and, in addition, was armed only with 40 mm tools.

As for the British "cruiser tanks", as well as their counterparts - the Soviet tanks of the BT series, their use for their intended purpose, in conditions of war with a trained enemy, turned out to be impossible: too weak armor leveled all other advantages. “Cruising tanks” were forced to look for natural shelters on the battlefield and act from ambushes - only in this case could success be ensured.

A lot of trouble delivered the operation of foreign technology - the tanks arrived according to the British standards of picking, with markings and instructions in English. The equipment was not sufficiently adapted to domestic conditions, there were problems with its development and maintenance.

And yet, it would be incorrect to attach the label “useless trash” to British tanks, at least - the Soviet tankers won many remarkable victories on these machines. The British armored vehicles, in spite of the absurd comparisons sometimes made to the Tigers and the Panthers, were quite consistent with their class of light and medium tanks. Behind the unsophisticated appearance and scanty “paper” performance characteristics, there were combat-ready machines that combined quite a few positive aspects: powerful booking, well-thought-out (with rare exceptions) ergonomics and a spacious fighting compartment, high-quality manufacturing of parts and mechanisms, synchronized gearbox, hydraulic rotation of the tower. Especially Soviet specialists liked the Mk-IV periscope observation device, which was copied and, under the designation MK-4, began to be installed on all Soviet tanks, beginning in the second half of 1943.

Often, the British armored vehicles were used without regard to its design features and limitations (after all, these vehicles were obviously not designed for the Soviet-German front). However, in the south of Russia, where climatic and environmental conditions corresponded to those for which British tanks were created, the Vallentines and Matilda showed themselves from the best side.

Queen of the battlefield

Infantry tank "Matilda" Mk II.
Combat weight 27 tons. 4 crew
Reservations: 70… 78 case front, mm 40 board… 55 mm + 25 mm paddle screens.
Armament: 40 mm anti-tank gun, Vickers machine gun.
The speed on the highway 25 km / h, on the cut-off terrain 10-15 km / h.


In the winter of 1941, the British "Matilda" could so unpunished ride through the battlefields of the Soviet-German front, as if she rolled onto the Borodino field in 1812. 37 mm anti-tank "knockers" Wehrmacht were powerless to stop this monster. Opponents of "fire hazardous" carburetor engines may exult - there was a diesel on the "Matilde", and not one, but two! Each power xnumx hp - it is easy to imagine how high the mobility of this car was.
Part of the machines arrived in the USSR in the configuration “Close Support” - infantry fire support vehicles with 76 mm howitzers.

Actually, this is where the advantages of the British tank end and its disadvantages begin. To 40mm gun was not fragmentation shells. The crew of four was functionally overloaded. "Summer" tracks did not keep the tank on a slippery road, tankers had to weld steel "spurs". And the side screens turned the operation of the tank into a complete hell - mud and snow were packed between the screen and the caterpillars, turning the tank into an immobilized steel coffin.

Part of the problems managed to be solved by developing new instructions for the operation of the tank. Soon a production line of 40 mm fragmentation shells was launched at one of the plants of the People's Commissariat of Ammunition (by analogy with the technological process of 37 mm ammunition). There were plans to retool the Matilds with the Soviet 76 mm F-34 gun. However, in the spring of 1943, the Soviet Union finally refused to accept tanks of this type, but single Matilda still met on the Soviet-German front right up to the middle of 1944.

The main advantage of the Matilda tanks was that they arrived very on time. In the initial period of the Great Patriotic War, the Matilda Technical Specifications fully corresponded to the characteristics of the Wehrmacht tanks, which allowed the use of British armored vehicles in a counteroffensive near Moscow, the Rzhev operation, on the Western, South-Western, Kalininsky, Bryansk fronts:

«
... tanks MK.II in battles proved to be from the positive side. Each crew spent the day of the battle up to 200 – 250 shells and 1 – 1,5 ammunition ammunition. Each tank worked on 550 – 600 hours instead of 220. Armor tanks showed exceptional stamina. Individual machines had 17 – 19 hits with 50 caliber mm projectiles and not a single case of frontal armor penetration. ”


Best in class

Infantry tank "Valentine" Mk.III
Combat weight 16 tons, crew 3 people.
Reservations: 60 mm case forehead, 30… 60 mm case board.
Armament: 40 mm anti-tank gun, BESA machine gun.
Speed ​​on highway 25 km / h.


One of the most important qualities of a riveted armored hull tank "Valentine" was a special arrangement of rivets - story knows many cases where a projectile or a bullet hit a rivet led to serious consequences: the rivet flew into the hull and cruelly crippled the crew. On Valentine this problem did not arise. It's amazing how the designers managed to install such a powerful and high-quality booking on such a small tank. (However, it is clear how - due to the close fighting compartment).

In terms of security, “Valentine” repeatedly surpassed all of their classmates - the Soviet BT-7, or the Czech Pz.Kpfw 38 (t), in service with the Wehrmacht, had only bulletproof booking. The meeting of “Valentine” with the more modern PzKpfw III also did not promise anything good for the German crew - the British tank had good chances of destroying the “troika”, while remaining itself unharmed.
A direct analogue of the “Valentine” tank was most likely the Soviet light tank T-70, which surpassed the “British” in speed, but was inferior to that in security and did not have a regular radio station.

The Soviet tank crews noted such a flaw in Valentine as a disgusting view from the driver. On the T-34 on the march, the mechanical drive could open its hatch in the frontal armor plate and dramatically improve the visibility - on the "Vallentine" there was no such possibility, you had to be content with a narrow and uncomfortable viewing slot. By the way, Soviet tankmen never complained about the close combat compartment of a British tank, because on the T-34 it was even closer.

In November 1943 of the year, the 139-th tank regiment of the 5-th mechanized corps of the 5-th army conducted a successful operation to liberate the village of Maiden Field. The regiment consisted of X-NUMX T-20 and 34 “Valentine” tanks. November 18 The 20 of the year, in conjunction with the 1943 Guards Tank Regiment of the Breakthrough, and the infantry of the 56 Guards Rifle Division, tanks of the 110 Tank Regiment went ahead. The attack was carried out at high speeds (up to 139 km / h) with an assault rifle on armor and with anti-tank guns attached to the tanks. In total, the operation involved 25 Soviet combat vehicles. The enemy did not expect such a swift and massive strike and could not provide effective resistance. After breaking through the first line of enemy defense, the infantry dismounted and, having unhooked the cannons, began to take up positions, preparing to repel a possible counterattack. During this time, our troops advanced 30 km into the depths of the German defense, losing one KB, one T-20, and two Valentine.


Valentine in North Africa



"Valentine - Stalin" is sent to the USSR



Bridgelayer based on "Valentine"


Land cruiser

Infantry tank "Churchill" Mk IV
Combat weight 38 tons. Crew 5 man.
Reservations: 102 mm case forehead, mm 76 case board.
Armament: two 40 mm guns (!), Two twin BESA machine guns.
Speed ​​on highway 25 km / h.


British attempt to create a heavy tank, similar to the KV. Alas, despite all the efforts of the designers, the masterpiece did not work out - Churchill was morally obsolete even before its appearance. However, there were also positive moments - for example, a powerful booking (later it was strengthened to 150 mm!). Outdated 40 mm guns were often replaced with 57 mm or even 76 mm howitzer guns.

Due to its small size, Churchill didn't gain special fame on the Soviet-German front. It is known that some of them fought on the Kursk Bulge, and Churchilli from the 34-th separate guards breakthrough tank regiment was the first to break into Orel.

Best of all, William Churchill himself joked about this car: “The tank that bears my name has more flaws than me.”


Kiev residents welcome the liberators



Flame-throwing tank "Churchill-Crocodile". This modification is stored in Kubinka.



The universal carrier

Light multipurpose armored personnel carrier.
Combat weight 4,5 tons. 1 crew + 4 paratrooper.
Body armor: 7 ... 10 mm rolled steel armor
Speed ​​on highway 50 km / h.


The Universal Carrier fought around the world: from the Soviet-German front to the Sahara and the jungles of Indonesia. 2560 of these nondescript, but very useful machines got to the USSR. Armored personnel carriers "Universal" found use mainly in reconnaissance battalions.




Soviet intelligence officer on the BTR "Universal"


Facts and figures are taken from M. Baryatinsky's book “Lend-Lease Tanks in Battle” and D. Loza’s memoirs “Tankman on a Foreign Car”
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  1. 22rus
    +28
    19 December 2012 08: 38
    The main advantage of the Matilda tanks was that they arrived very on time.

    That's right, because the best tank you need to consider the tank that you have at the moment.
    But in general, a very good and balanced article.
    1. +3
      19 December 2012 17: 37
      Many thanks to the author for the article and photo wink
    2. -2
      19 December 2012 23: 57
      Good article, RESPECT! good
      The only pity is that not with this:
      http://topwar.ru/21646-podpravlennoe-srazhenie.html#comment-id-751374
  2. -15
    19 December 2012 09: 01
    Well, allies, for such junk, they also asked for money.
    1. +24
      19 December 2012 09: 17
      You see, in 41 we delivered our "junk" and "non-junk" on the battlefields and front-line roads - alas, this is a fact. And for the battle for Moscow, the leader was distributing the tanks PERSONALLY and BY PIECE. In these conditions, there was no time for whims, and they were ready to pay.
      But I still can’t understand one thing, that’s the twist of British thought - HOW THE INFANTRY TANK CAN BE WITHOUT A SHORT EQUIPMENT ????
      How to suppress machine guns? VET guns? To destroy just a hut, for which the enemy ?? Everything else is tolerable, but this is just shocking. And also the pioneers of tank building and tank application ...
      1. +2
        19 December 2012 09: 23
        Quote: Mikhado
        How to suppress machine guns? VET guns?

        Yes, infantry, apparently suppress
        .
        Quote: Mikhado
        HOW THE INFANTRY TANK CAN BE WITHOUT A SHARDBAR shell ???

        Caliber, such a landmine, just a laugh.
        The AGS and the one will be worse.
        1. +5
          19 December 2012 11: 11
          Well, allies, for such junk, they also asked for money.

          If not for this "junk" then at least instead of this

          would ride this


          Read more here
          Transport in the Great Patriotic War (1941 – 1945 gg.)
          1. +1
            19 December 2012 14: 45
            Quote: professor
            If not for this "junk" then at least instead of this

            But what photo from the T-34 was not found? Yes?
            I understand .... I, too, in your place, would "spread" it.
            1. -14
              19 December 2012 14: 55
              For the most literate, I even posted a link - read on health.
              1. Fox 070
                +1
                20 December 2012 11: 00
                Professor,
                That "professor", again you are carried by your face according to your "comments"? !! And artificial rating does not help. Here again you have lost your general's shoulder straps. Interestingly, you yourself are not ashamed? Or is shame an impermissible luxury for a true Jew and Zionist? In general, it is true, who will teach us, lapotnikogv ?! You are not a "professor", you are a beggar, unable to raise your rating on your own and begging for it from your superiors. SHAME !!!
                1. -4
                  20 December 2012 11: 22
                  Go I serve on Saturdays
                  1. Fox 070
                    +5
                    20 December 2012 11: 43
                    Quote: professor
                    I serve on Saturdays

                    What can you file? Rating requested? Or other people's articles that you (?) Translate? You have nothing of your own, and even the thoughts and ideas that you are pushing here are the only ones for the entire Jewish kagal. Throughout your story, stand with an unhappy look and outstretched hand. He serves ... You yourself live on tips and deception. Beggars. tongue
          2. +11
            19 December 2012 15: 27
            The soldiers did not ride much on both. Critically small. My late father marched on the front line from Stalingrad to Vienna. Pts. I remember his stories well. The most important transport was the HORSE. And also, as he said "fart steam". Ie - with feet. Even near Budapest, they emerged from the possible encirclement on carts. The Germans also had horses, but they also had a lot of equipment. As my father said - "they kick us in the face in one place - and quickly throw their soldiers to another until we come to our senses." He received his Red Star for destroying the German transport with precise fire and did not allow the Germans to withdraw and withdraw the artillery.
            There was very little wheeled transport. Is that maybe for heavy artillery and in the rear used.
            1. 22rus
              +4
              19 December 2012 16: 03
              Quote: ikrut
              There was very little wheeled transport.

              Very, very strange to read.
              As of June 22.06.41, 272, in the Red Army there were already XNUMX thousand cars.
              During the war years, domestic industry produced about 300 thousand cars. During the same time, 477,8 thousand vehicles were delivered from abroad.
              It is clear that cars are consumables, but 1 million cars are ... one million.
              Not to see so many cars is impossible.
              1. -6
                19 December 2012 16: 09
                I fully support ikruta. Type in Google "Soviet troops on the march to the Second World War" and see how they stomped on foot.
                Read the book that I bring here The book of Lieutenant General of the Technical Forces, Doctor of Military Sciences I.V. Kovalev, during the war years, the chief of the Central Directorate of Military Communications, a member of the Transport Committee at the GKO, People's Commissar of Railways, summarizes the experience of transport support of the largest strategic operations of the Great Patriotic War and the needs of the national economy. The book contains rich material about the work of Soviet transport in difficult military conditions.
                1. 22rus
                  +4
                  19 December 2012 16: 20
                  Quote: professor
                  I fully support ikruta.


                  Quote: ikrut
                  The most important transport was a HORSE.


                  The total number of horses in the Red Army was 1,9 million, i.e. one car for two horses. But something I did not hear, so that two horses harnessed to the cart could carry 4 tons of cargo or a platoon of soldiers at a speed of 70 km / h.
                  But one Studebaker US6 could. Yes, and pick up some cannabis like ZIS-2 on a trailer.
                  1. -1
                    19 December 2012 16: 23
                    and a lorry in nominal value on a paved road could transport only 1.5 tons ... sad
                    1. +5
                      19 December 2012 17: 54
                      It was intended to carry 1.5 tons, not for nothing that it has the national name Lorry.
                2. Skavron
                  +10
                  19 December 2012 16: 32
                  "Soviet troops on the march in the Second World War" and see how they stomped on foot.

                  And the German rode bicycles))))))))
                  The basis of German motorized infantry is a horse and a peasant cart.
                  Source: Remembering My Relatives. The first thing the Hitlerites seized was not food (the womb of the trigger, milk ...), but carts and horses that the Red Army did not manage to mobilize.
                  1. Nord007hold
                    +3
                    21 December 2012 02: 18
                    Quote: Skavron
                    The basis of German motorized infantry is a horse and a peasant cart.

                    In fact, German motorized infantry made up about 15% of all infantry units. She had armored personnel carriers and other equipment to increase mobility, and worked closely with tank units.
                    But the bulk of the infantry really moved at random, because despite the relatively high degree of mechanization of the German army, the transport was primarily to motorized infantry and artillery, and there was not enough for all of them.
            2. +2
              20 December 2012 20: 24
              Quote: ikrut
              There was very little wheeled transport.

              It is true that all the transport went to traction for guns. Even jeeps and doji.
              And the soldiers trampled on the dugout with their two.
          3. 0
            20 December 2012 19: 03
            "Studers" is a thing !! It was a very good car for its time
            1. 0
              21 December 2012 01: 32
              Yes, Studebaker is a thing, some survived to the 70's. And my grandfather, a veteran, praised Dodge 3 / 4 very much.
          4. +1
            18 November 2013 12: 14
            Oh well you Professor- and drove, and won. But this is WE. But would they be able to do so? Even with some Martian Lend-Lease.
      2. panda
        +1
        19 December 2012 19: 33
        HOW THE INFANTRY TANK CAN BE WITHOUT A SHIPBOARD Shell ????
        Matilda was used badly as a ram, crushing enemy artillery and anti-tank missiles was also poorly used, most importantly against Italian tankettes and armored vehicles, German PZ 2,3 with 37,50 mm. The gun was the most, and the 40 mm shell for fragmentation, not very good option, you need at least 75mm weapons.
      3. Denzel13
        +1
        19 December 2012 22: 35
        Quote: Mikhado
        HOW THE INFANTRY TANK CAN BE WITHOUT A SHIPBOARD Shell ????


        And you take an interest in the types of shells in the ammunition Abrams. There is also no high-explosive fragmentation.
        1. 0
          20 December 2012 02: 21


          But he has such exotic in the BC as a card shell.
          1. +1
            21 December 2012 07: 16
            I don’t know how it is now, but in Soviet times and immediately after, while the army was still alive, all the tanks in ZabVO and DalVO also had grenade shells in their ammunition. It was believed that if the Chinese climbed, then there was nothing denser than buckshot.
      4. +1
        20 December 2012 10: 09
        Yes, these tanks disappeared on time to the front, when production beyond the Urals had not yet begun on the production of tanks. Although they were not distinguished by their cool qualities, the gap in this period was fixed by tanks. hi
        1. +2
          18 November 2013 12: 19
          Quote: Simon
          Yes, these tanks disappeared on time to the front, when production beyond the Urals had not yet begun on the production of tanks. Although they were not distinguished by their cool qualities, the gap in this period was fixed by tanks.

          Which once again speaks of the correctness of the decisions of our political leadership. That time, of course ...
  3. +3
    19 December 2012 09: 36
    Interesting article! So we have no debts to the former allies! this is good, Another argument in the ideological struggle against Western propaganda.

    Regarding the quality and characteristics of foreign technology: the aircraft were good, the cars are super! But the tanks are not very. But on fishlessness, as they say, and fish cancer!
    1. Chapaev
      +1
      19 December 2012 09: 40
      Not allies, but allies. And our great-grandfathers fought with them side by side against a common enemy. And if it weren’t for them, maybe they would live now in a recreation zone beyond the Urals
      1. +11
        19 December 2012 10: 36
        With whom????? Side by side those who hit Hitler credited military equipment and sent to the East ??? With those who prepared plans for an attack on the USSR after the 9 of May? With those who raised a lot of money on the blood and suffering of my people ???? With those who belittle the merits of the USSR in the fight against fascism ??? / With those who pulled with the opening of the second front ??? With those whose leaders openly declared that the more Russians die in a meat grinder, the better for them ??? Sorry of course, but I don’t have a name for such people as allies! All these so-called allies just covered their ass and traded !!!
        1. -14
          19 December 2012 11: 17
          Side by side those who hit Hitler credited military equipment and sent to the East ???

          Are you talking about these?

          General G. Guderian and brigade commander S.M. Krivoshein take a joint parade of Soviet and
          German units in Brest on the occasion of the transfer of the city under the jurisdiction of the USSR.
          (There are many more such pictures http://gendol.livejournal.com/25351.html)

          Or how did Stalin arm Hitler until the summer of 1941?
          1. +7
            19 December 2012 11: 40
            Do not confuse the policy of coexistence with overt provocations for starting a war!
            1. -16
              19 December 2012 13: 47
              Do not confuse the policy of coexistence with overt provocations for starting a war!

              How correctly you noticed. We will recall the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact, according to which the two countries agreed on how they will unleash a war?
              1. +6
                19 December 2012 14: 38
                So what?????? This pact is an attempt to prevent the impending catastrophe by building relations with the most powerful countries in the region in such a way as to have as little stress as possible!

                I see nothing wrong with the desire to strengthen the influence and power of the USSR!
                And what do you think ??? It’s better to sit in revenge and watch the state approach an imminent war and not take any action!

                And I’ll see how you’re a child of Western propaganda! There is nothing to blame for what was done for the good of the Russian people !!!
                1. -4
                  19 December 2012 14: 53
                  I see nothing wrong with the desire to strengthen the influence and power of the USSR!

                  And I am a "child of Western propaganda" see a lot of bad things in inciting the Second World War.

                  It’s better to sit in revenge and watch the state approach an imminent war and not take any action!

                  You can negotiate with the cannibal, attack the neighbors and continue to supply this cannibal with everything necessary for the war, and then be very surprised how he attacked you. fool

                  There is nothing to blame for what was done for the good of the Russian people !!!

                  Are these millions of victims among the Russian people for his good? Sometimes include gray matter.
                  1. +7
                    19 December 2012 15: 35
                    And why do wars arise ???? Because Stalin wanted or Hitler decided to have fun ??? Can you give more objective prerequisites for the start of the Second World War? Or do you think that the reason for everything is the act?

                    In your opinion, it turns out that any dialogue with an opponent necessarily leads to blood?

                    Quote: professor
                    You can negotiate with the cannibal, attack the neighbors and continue to supply this cannibal with everything necessary for the war, and then be very surprised how he attacked you.
                    And here it is possible in more detail who supplied what to whom ???? According to your version, as I understand it, Stalin delivered military supplies to Germany. technology and mat. funds as with Lend-Lease ???? He taught the Gestapo torture and taught people to let fertilizer ?????


                    Quote: professor
                    Are these millions of victims among the Russian people for his good? Sometimes include gray matter.


                    I try to include ...... none of the authors of this act envisaged such consequences. Stalin just wanted to "sort out" the situation for himself with the greatest benefit. Only now Hitler had a clouding of his mind due to success, or he was a puppet and obeyed commands like an obedient dog ... here we can say - a mystery shrouded in darkness!
                    1. -7
                      19 December 2012 16: 02
                      In your opinion, it turns out that any dialogue with an opponent necessarily leads to blood?

                      There is a dialogue, but there is an agreement in which the parties undertake not to interfere with each other's attack on the negotiated countries.

                      And here it is possible in more detail who supplied what to whom ????

                      Is it you who are joking or do not have any information about the cooperation of the USSR with Nazi Germany?
                      After the signing of non-aggression and trade agreements between Germany and the USSR in August 1939, our countries became allies. Germany provided the Soviet Union with a loan of 200 million Reichsmarks, for which German products were purchased. It was calculated by the USSR as a raw material. The last train with Soviet wheat proceeded west in a few hours before Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union.
                      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                      So, in the 1924 year in Lipetsk, the Reichswehr Aviation School was created, which existed for almost ten years and disguised as the 4 th squadron of the aviation part of the Red Air Fleet. Many, if not most of the German pilots (Blumenzaat, Heinz, Makratsky, Foss, Teetsmann, Blume, Ressing, etc.) who later became famous studied in Lipetsk.
                      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                      At the end of 1939, a repair base for German ships was founded near Murmansk, in the spring of 1940, its ships participated in the aggression against Norway. The base actually operated before the start of the war between Germany and the USSR.
                      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                      The most secret object of the Reichswehr in the USSR was the Tomka, in which the Germans invested about 1 million. Marks. It was the so-called school of chemical warfare, located in the Samara region, in the immediate vicinity of the territory of the autonomous republic of the Volga Germans. Meanwhile, Part 1 of Art. 171 of the Versailles Peace Treaty forbade Germany both the use of asphyxiant, poisonous and similar gases, all sorts of similar liquids, substances or methods, and their import into Germany. At Tomka, methods of using toxic substances in artillery, aviation, as well as means and methods of degassing contaminated areas were tested. The research department at the school was supplied with the latest designs of tanks for testing toxic substances, with devices obtained from Germany, and equipped with workshops and laboratories.
                      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                      It is indisputable that the cooperation of the Red Army and the Reichswehr in the three named centers (with the code names Lipetsk, Kama and Tomka) was carried out contrary to the Treaty of Versailles, in accordance with Art. 168 of which the location and establishment of such military undertakings had to be agreed and approved by the governments of the main Allied and Associated Powers. The Soviet side received an annual material `` reward '' for the use of these facilities by the Germans and the right to participate in military-industrial tests and development. Chief of armaments of the Red Army I. Uborevich said that `` the Germans are the only outlet for us so far through which we can study achievements in military affairs abroad, moreover, from the army, which has very interesting achievements in a number of issues. ''

                      Should I retype the whole Internet for you or will you find it yourself?

                      He taught the Gestapo torture and taught people to let fertilizer ?????

                      NKVD - GESTAPO: secret cooperation
                      1. +4
                        19 December 2012 16: 30
                        Thank you for the information, but I do not see anything immoral in it. The usual two-way cooperation from which both parties have mutual benefits. Now, too, many foreign nationals are studying military science and engineering in our country. Later, the Western regime will certainly condemn this. After all, trained military and engineers prevent them from pumping oil just like that. NATO sends instructors to all countries that are geopolitical enemies of Russia, and God knows what horrors they create in their underground laboratories. In the same USA, the largest number of prisoners in the WORLD !!! And about the camps for those accused of terrorism, I generally keep quiet, the Gestapo nervously smokes on the sidelines. Why is this not bothering you ???
                        It is now possible to "upload" a heap of unreliable information to the network, it is possible to expose information from a certain angle about those past days in order to discredit Russia. They say we are worse than the Nazis. This is an information war !!!

                        Regarding the attack, so what that Poland was torn to pieces (I do not feel very warm feelings for them). I do not deny that Stalin had a personal dislike of this country (and indeed there is a reason). Nobody has yet canceled evolution.

                        Please understand me correctly. I'm just trying to get to the truth and sharing my point of view.
                        Yours!
                      2. -7
                        19 December 2012 16: 39
                        Thank you for the information, but I do not see anything immoral in it.

                        Your right, just do not blame everyone in a row for helping Hitler and seeing him among the main assistants of the USSR.

                        Why is this not bothering you ???

                        Very worrying, but this is not the subject of discussion in this article.

                        Please understand me correctly, I'm just trying to get to the truth

                        I welcome your desire and advise you to read more, but not "Soviet newspapers before dinner"
                      3. +4
                        19 December 2012 17: 04
                        What to read ??? Western bravado about "Bruce Willis" ???

                        Why do you have such a negative attitude to Soviet information ??? Yes, propaganda is better than the Western "heroic fables" ......... And how to understand where is the truth and where is the lie ??
                      4. -9
                        19 December 2012 17: 44
                        Why do you have such a negative attitude to Soviet information ???

                        60 years since the war ended, and many Soviet archives are still classified? So trust them after that ... The bourgeoisie not only declassified, but also provided access to the Internet for everyone. Learn, I do not want to.
                      5. +3
                        20 December 2012 00: 34
                        As far as I remember, the British archives are secret for at least 100 years, and then they will think ... and will be extended for another hundred years wink
                      6. DmitriRazumov
                        +5
                        19 December 2012 18: 14
                        In this context, it is highly desirable to mention the cooperation of American business with Hitlerite Germany and the loans to. provided "private" American and other companies to industrialists of the Third Reich, even after the United States officially declared a state of war with the Axis powers. There is also a lot of information on this topic. in the Internet.
                      7. -4
                        19 December 2012 21: 09
                        Business is one thing. Bastards are everywhere. Here's the official level - a little different
                      8. +13
                        19 December 2012 17: 00
                        Quote: professor
                        Germany granted the Soviet Union a loan of 200 million Reichsmarks

                        Stalin is just super, take a loan from VRAGA. Load his industry with orders for the USSR, and German industry is not rubber --- the machines cannot simultaneously make a checkpoint for a German tank and a Soviet tractor.
                        A joke with a cruiser? Buying from the enemy is a double benefit, you have one more from the enemy one megier. Petropavlovsk showed the Frisians their error with 8 inch shells))))

                        That's for this I respect the leadership of the USSR, not like the current))))
                      9. Skavron
                        +4
                        19 December 2012 17: 37
                        KARS ++++++++++++++++++++
                      10. +1
                        19 December 2012 22: 53
                        Quote: Kars
                        load its industry with orders for the USSR, and German industry is not rubber

                        There is little joy here - at the end of the 30's, the Reich managed to provide his army + to fulfill international contracts.
                        They paid the Reich not in rubles and not in stamps, but in coal, ore, oil - because Germany was so lacking to prepare for war

                        Quote: Kars
                        A joke with a cruiser? Buying from the enemy is a double benefit, you have one more from the enemy one megier.

                        For me, this story is noteworthy because Petropavlovsk was never able to complete

                        Quote: Kars
                        Stalin is just super, take a loan from the ENEMY ... For this I respect the leadership of the USSR, not like the current ones))))

                        I respect Ronald Reagan more. Hollywood actor destroyed the Union without firing a shot and losing a single American soldier
                      11. +2
                        20 December 2012 00: 13
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        There is little joy here - in the late 30s Reich

                        Do you want to say if he had better made tanks for Vkrmacht?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        They paid the Reich not in rubles and not in stamps, but in coal, ore, oil - because Germany was so lacking to prepare for war

                        Is it really enough? But what about Finland? Sweden? And if we are talking about the end of the 30s, then ring everything with Germany, they traded EVERYTHING))) and the United States traded through neutrals until the end of the war.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        For me, this story is noteworthy because Petropavlovsk was never able to complete

                        Fritz braked like a moghlm, but stumbled on a full BK, all the more their TKR stock of shells.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        fulfill international contracts

                        These are his problems, but the USSR was not in the blatant Saxons of the United States or France in a hurry to supply weapons and machine tools, will we remember how hard the Christy tank got from the Yankees? And at the same time they demanded GOLD for their services, and here yes even in exchange for raw materials of such low quality that the Fritz complained that iron ore was one slag))))
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        I respect Ronald Reagan more

                        Your personal problems, respect the enemy, do not forget to respect Gorbachev as well.
                      12. +5
                        20 December 2012 01: 02
                        Quote: Kars
                        Do you want to say if he had better made tanks for Vkrmacht?

                        This is a story from the category: Mi-28 India did not buy - the Russian Air Force will get more credit. But do the Russian Air Force agree to pay money for the additional Mi-28? Not. It is not a matter of industrial capacity, but of money, needs and contracts. There is no need - no one will do anything. Neither for the Red Army, nor for the Wehrmacht. Moreover, no one in Germany made tanks for the USSR

                        Quote: Kars
                        Really missing? And what about Finland? Sweden? And if we are talking about the end of the 30's then ring with Germany traded ALL

                        We are talking about 39-40 years. Germany has always had a shortage of raw materials, especially oil. To cite material as the Soviet leadership suggests the Reich to eliminate the acute shortage of fuel during the Battle of Britain?

                        Quote: Kars
                        and the United States so traded until the end of the war through neutrals

                        Scum speculators are everywhere. But the sums of this "business" were ridiculous.

                        Quote: Kars
                        These are his problems, but the USSR was not insolently sailed by the United States or France in a hurry to supply weapons and machine tools. Let’s remember how hard the Christy tank got from the Yankees?

                        In the 30's, the crisis USA was happy to supply the USSR with any equipment: Alberta Kahn’s company, designed the 521 enterprise — pillars of Soviet industrialization, machine tools, equipment, and an engineer. Do you remember Henry Ford and GAZ or the Stalingrad Tractor Plant, fully delivered disassembled?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And while they demanded GOLD for their services

                        What bastards. They were supposed to build an 521 factory for free.

                        Quote: Kars
                        but stumbled upon delivering a full ammunition, so far only their TKR stock of shells.

                        In exchange, the Reich received the necessary ore and oil (as well as grain, flax, food, alloying additives and other useful things). And TKR Kriegsmarine vseravno stood in the harbors throughout the war.

                        Quote: Kars
                        respect the enemy, do not forget yet to respect Gorbachev on the side.

                        No, Gorbachev did not stand close here. Reagan (like F. Delano Roosevelt) was a really cool president and maybe, someday, such a person will also appear in the Kremlin.
                      13. -3
                        20 December 2012 01: 20
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        This is a story from the category: not bought

                        No, this is a direct question.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Do you want to say if he had better made tanks for Vkrmacht?

                        Better Not Better Yes, no.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        We are talking about 39-40 years. Germany has always had a shortage of raw materials, especially oil. To cite material as the Soviet leadership suggests the Reich to eliminate the acute shortage of fuel during the Battle of Britain?

                        I personally do not care, and even these years do not exclude Sweden, Finland, Romania. Neutral countries including the USA. By the way, did the USA stop trading with Germany after September 1, 1939?
                        And these years, apart from Germany, nobody supplied us with anything as such.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        30s crisis USA gladly supplied

                        But you yourself have just limited the terms of 1939, when the United States supplied the Germans and did not deliver what is it?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In exchange, the Reich received the necessary ore and oil

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In exchange, the Reich received the necessary ore and oil (as well as grain, flax, food, alloys, etc. useful things

                        Which, in any case, he would have received from other countries, but to win 2 cruisers of the USSR would have been bad.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And TKR Kriegsmarine vseravno stood in harbors all war

                        Tell it to those whom Eugen ironed on the Courland Peninsula until April 1945,
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        No, Gorbachev did not stand close here. Reagan

                        I already said these are your personal problems.

                        as a bonus
                        As noted above, the equipment of the bow and stern blocks was completely duplicated, but on the “Prince Eugen” premises of the aft information processing post were empty until 1942, since all its components were supposed to be delivered to the USSR for the completion of Petropavlovsk - the former Lyuttsov.

                      14. +1
                        21 December 2012 08: 37
                        Yes, and here Reagan was an actor, an actor, and remained. Here are those who behind him, who bought a humpback and others like him, are another matter. But here is a banal betrayal ... And it’s not necessary to respect them, but to despise themselves, having bought pannukha on all channels and hamburgers with poisonous swill at all corners passed ... Power.
                      15. Andof odessa
                        +4
                        19 December 2012 17: 31
                        Dear most of what you have stated in the field of mutual assistance of the armies of the USSR and Germany ended within a year after the arrival of Hitler ent races. secondly, we received from Germany 200 million Reichmarks more than we repaid (see credit), and mainly with industrial equipment, including for the military-industrial complex and ready-made weapons. in this sense, we can say that the Germans had previously signed a lease-lease agreement with us. preparing our army for war with Germany. thirdly, the treaty will say so about non-interference and the division of spheres of influence was inevitable the question was only with whom. The choice of our future allies was at that time not in favor of an agreement with the USSR. but in favor of Poland. since their proposals and requirements cannot be interpreted differently. and in general, Lend-Lease was beneficial to both Us and the Americans.
                      16. -10
                        19 December 2012 17: 35
                        Dear most of what you have stated in the field of mutual assistance of the armies of the USSR and Germany ended within a year after the arrival of Hitler ent races.

                        Dear, discard the link to the list of supplies and their chronology, ento races. And after that we will talk about the following points.
                      17. Andof odessa
                        +7
                        19 December 2012 18: 13
                        For starters, dear: Flight school in Lipetsk http://www.airpages.ru/dc/lipetsk.shtml cooperation terminated at 34
                        танковая школа в http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%E0%EC%E0_%28%F2%E0%ED%EA%EE%E2%FB%E9_%F6%E5%ED%
                        F2% F0% 29 cooperation terminated at 33 (although the wiki is not conclusive evidence but other sources indicate the same)
                        chemical facility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D2%EE%EC%EA%E0 although completion is not indicated anywhere, but since the management of the facility ceased at 33, it can be reasonably assumed that the collaboration ended then (Colonel L. von Zikherer was the head of Tomka in 1928, and General V. Trepper was after his death in 1929-1933.)
                        We won’t consider trade agreements until 1939, since at that time France and Britain and the USA were actively trading with Germany. I want to remind you that Adolf became Reich Chancellor in 1933. in my opinion, there are enough races for ent.
                      18. -4
                        19 December 2012 21: 53
                        Not at all enough.
                        1. wiki doesn't channel
                        2. especially for you dear: The last train with Soviet wheat proceeded west several hours before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union.
                        So, dear, we will see references or how? wink
                      19. RUSLV
                        +1
                        20 December 2012 11: 49
                        Judging by the manner of writing and the avatar, I came across your opponent on this site - http://www.imhoclub.lv/user_page/1217 under the name Procurator Ivanovs, complete Russophobe, lives in Latvia. We, in Latvia, have a full-blown Cold War - a confrontation between Latvians and Russians. On local sites, a certain amount of paid trolls from the Security Police crawls. So I advise you not to enter into discussions with these ****.

                        On the raised issue of "cooperation" between the USSR and Germany, you may be interested in the following links:

                        Was a fascist sword forged in the USSR? - http://militera.lib.ru/research/pyhalov_i/01.html

                        Should the “Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact” be ashamed? - http://militera.lib.ru/research/pyhalov_i/04.html

                        Soviet-German economic cooperation - http://militera.lib.ru/research/pyhalov_i/07.html

                        “... Those who condemn the then Soviet leadership for non-compliance with“ moral norms ”in foreign policy proceed from the postulate that trade with a potential enemy is something out of the ordinary. However, in real life, it is quite common to conduct commercial affairs with a future enemy. Let's not go far for examples. So, on the eve of [185] World War I. Germany was the main trading partner of the Russian Empire. Despite the fact that the alliance treaty between Russia and France, which had a clear anti-German orientation, was concluded back in 1 {1893 }, and with England, in 487 {1907}, the volumes of Russian-German trade steadily increased: if in 488-1898, 1902% of Russian exports went to Germany, and 24,7% of Russian imports came from Germany, then in 34,6 - already 1913% and 29,8%, which significantly exceeded the share of England (47,5% and 17,6% respectively) and France (12,6% and 6,6%) taken together {4,1 } Trade with the Germans was briskly conducted right up to the very beginning of the war.

                        “And you do not compare the respectable empire of the Kaiser with the Third Reich,” my opponents will object. “The odious Hitler regime put itself outside the framework of the community of civilized nations, so any cooperation with it, including economic, is categorically unacceptable.”

                        To begin with, Nazi Germany conducted active foreign trade in the 1930s. Moreover, without the foreign sources of raw materials, the then German economy simply could not exist. So, on the eve of the outbreak of World War II:

                        “For raw materials, dependence on imports was approximately 33%. In the metallurgical industry, the ratio of domestic ore consumption to consumption of imported ore was expressed in a ratio of 1: 3. For a number of non-ferrous metals, dependence on foreign countries was extremely large; So, for lead it was 50%, for copper - 70%, for tin - 90%, for aluminum (bauxite) - 99%. The dependence was also very significant for mineral oils (65%), rubber [186] (over 85%) and raw materials for the textile industry (about 70%) ”{490}.

                        Who supplied Germany with raw materials? The main suppliers of the Third Reich were the United States and England, not only giving the Nazis the opportunity to make extensive purchases thanks to exemption from debt payments and providing new loans, but also supplying them with especially valuable types of strategic raw materials, re-exporting them to Germany from other countries {491}.

                        For example, England re-exported to Germany copper ore from South Africa, Canada, Chile, the Belgian Congo (through Portuguese East Africa). In 1934, England re-exported copper to Germany in the amount of 3870 thousand marks, which amounted to one third of all German imports of copper, and in 1935 the amount of British copper supplies for the Third Reich increased even more, reaching 6770 thousand marks {492}.
                      20. His
                        0
                        25 December 2012 01: 36
                        During the war, an American company from Venezuela supplied Germany with petroleum products
                      21. +2
                        19 December 2012 19: 02
                        Quote: professor
                        Dear, discard the link to the list of supplies and their chronology, ento races. And after that we will talk about the following points.


                        1. Lathes for turning wheel half-blades. Special machines for railways. Heavy rotary machines with a diameter of 2500 mm. Lathes with a center height of 455 mm and above, planing machines with a planing width of 2000 mm and above, edge planing machines, boring machines with a drilling diameter of over 100 mm, grinding machines weighing more than 10 thousand kg, boring machines with a spindle diameter of 155 mm, frontal lathes with face diameters from 1500 mm, broaching machines weighing more than 5000 kg, slotting machines with strokes from 300 mm, deep hole drilling machines with drilling diameters in excess of 100 mm, large radial drilling machines with spindle diameters in excess of 80 mm.

                        Automatic bar machines with bar diameters over 60 mm. Semiautomatic devices. Multi-cutting machines. Mnogoshpindelny automatic machines with a diameter of a bar over 60 mm. Gear cutting machines for gears with a diameter over 1500 mm. Large hydraulic presses, friction presses, crank presses, bursting machines, edging presses, forging hammers over 5 t.

                        Machinery: rollers, scissors, bending machines, wire weaving machines, cutting machines, etc. (167,0)

                        2. Cranes: bridge, blacksmith, slewing, floating (5,0).

                        3. Rolling mills: wire, sheet and for thin sheet iron (5,0).

                        4. Compressors: air, hydrogen, gas, etc. (5,1).

                        5. Linde plants, various special equipment for sulfuric acid, powder and other chemical factories.

                        Fischer system installations for the production of liquid fuel from coal, Winkler generators and high pressure columns for nitrogen (23,5).

                        NOTE: The delivery of the Fischer system unit for the production of liquid fuel from coal, Winkler generators and high pressure columns for nitrogen begins in the middle of 1942.

                        6. Various electrical equipment: explosion-proof motors, oil circuit breakers, transformers (3,3).

                        7. Equipment for the coal industry: pneumatic drill hammers, loading machines, conveyors (0,5).

                        8. Tugboats with power from 100 to 200 hp, floating ship repair workshops, 20 fishing trawlers (3,0).

                        9. Turbines with generators from 2,5 to 12 thousand kW and diesel engines with power from 600 to 1200 hp (2,0).

                        10 Lokomobiles from 350 to 750 hp (2,8).

                        11. Control and measuring instruments (4,1).

                        12. Optical Instruments (2,3).


                        http://flibusta.net/b/120728/read
                        there you will find yourself in the text.
                      22. -1
                        20 December 2012 17: 22
                        the guys forgot to add that Guderian learned to ride a tank in Kazan and most of the tank generals were trained at the Academy of the General Staff and their blitzkrieg strategy is nothing more than "with little blood and on foreign territory"
                      23. +2
                        18 November 2013 13: 14
                        Quote: zadorin1974
                        the guys forgot to add that Guderian was learning to ride a tank in Kazan
                        "Fast-paced Heinz" never studied in Kazan (and in general, by and large, never studied anywhere, never even graduated from the academy - well, sure, our Tukhachevsky, was delighted with them for a reason).

                        most tank generals had internships at the General Staff Academy
                        Surnames are possible, otherwise they are somehow unknown to me.

                        their blitzkrieg strategy is nothing more than "with little blood and on foreign territory"
                        But this is the true truth. But there is no need to draw far-reaching conclusions from this: in the German General Staff, too, not all were completely fools, but, I think, at least through one.
                      24. 0
                        20 November 2017 17: 48
                        In general, military cooperation between the USSR and Germany was before Hitler came to power.
                        But to see the propagandists constantly invent something new ...
                  2. +2
                    19 December 2012 20: 54
                    By the way, at the expense of incitement, you’ll soon write down Cheberlina in Stalin’s puppets, they say he danced signing the Munich agreement to the tune of Stalin !!!! cannibals are in the West, remember the history of the beginning of the First World War! history with mustard gas! history with tanks! history with bombing of Dresden! atomic bombing! vietnam! well and cadafia
                    1. vyatom
                      0
                      20 December 2012 13: 01
                      Stop whining about Dresden. There was a military necessity. I am not sorry for the Germans. For that fought for it and ran.
                  3. Baboon
                    +2
                    19 December 2012 23: 11
                    But what about the Munich conspiracy, and the calm Anschluss of Austria (it was impossible in the Weimar world! 0? Why didn’t they stop Germany? And who, interestingly ignited this war?
                  4. +1
                    20 December 2012 19: 37
                    Come on ..)) The West has been engaged in all its life just kindling wars. You shouldn't go far for an example - just look at how the "hard work of democracy" takes place at the suggestion of the "civilized world" in North Africa and the Middle East. Permanent chaos under the banner of Islamist radicals, not democracy there now.
              2. Andof odessa
                +7
                19 December 2012 15: 18
                dear or maybe the Munich agreement on the division of the Czech Republic is better to start, or on the failure of France and England to fulfill the union agreement in this regard? or the fact that they, having an overwhelming superiority in the army, did not crush Germany when it refused restrictions on the army in the Weimar world? although you still need to say thanks for the help provided cars food antibiotics helped save many lives. Although in my opinion our grandfathers and fathers did this back in 1944 in Poland when the Germans flattened the Allies in the Ardennes 2 times. and could flatten back to the big English channel and the new dunkirk.
              3. +2
                19 December 2012 15: 20
                Quote: professor
                How correctly you noticed. We will recall the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact, according to which the two countries agreed on how they will unleash a war?

                What the propaganda?
                Goebbels case, I see, lives and thrives.
                1. -14
                  19 December 2012 15: 21
                  Essentially argue is what?
                  1. +1
                    18 November 2013 13: 17
                    Quote: professor
                    Essentially argue is what?

                    And the meaning? ... Dupit always everything is clear and understandable.
              4. +8
                19 December 2012 15: 39
                Sorry, but you are reasoning very superficially. Even Bismarck said: "Politics is the art of the possible." If you are talking about a pact, then remember the Munich Agreement. Where it all began. Stalin acted very wisely, although not at all original. Read Lenin's work "On Compromises". And you will understand the rules of conduct in politics and "maneuver" between enemies and allies. The latter, by the way, as the whole history of mankind shows, very often change places.
                I wonder if you personally would prefer a non-aggression pact (the notorious "pact") or a war? Especially at that moment, in the 39th.
              5. DmitriRazumov
                +5
                19 December 2012 18: 04
                It would be nice to recall the Munich agreement of 38 years, ctor. gave the nod to the Nazis for the conquest of eastern Europe, and Kotor. for some reason, our Western partners constantly forget to consider it in the context of political and military adventures of that era. And the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact should be evaluated as a response to the initiative of England and France, who tried to send Hitler to the east.
                1. -6
                  19 December 2012 22: 00
                  No one forgets the "Munich Agreement '38", but do not remind us when it began The Second World War and how did it begin, with the occupation of Czechoslovakia in March 1939 of the year or Poland (under an agreement with the USSR) 1 of September 1939 of the year?
                  1. 22rus
                    -8
                    19 December 2012 22: 34
                    Quote: professor
                    when did the Second World War begin and how did it begin

                    The Second World War began on December 7, 1941 after an attack by the Japanese Air Force on the American Navy in Pearl Harbor.
                    1. Cavas
                      +6
                      19 December 2012 22: 39
                      Quote: 22 rus
                      The Second World War began on December 7, 1941 after an attack by the Japanese Air Force on the American Navy in Pearl Harbor.

                      This is where you taught history ???? wassat



                      Even Lenin came to life!
                      1. 22rus
                        0
                        19 December 2012 22: 44
                        Quote: Cavas
                        This is where you taught history ???? wassat

                        What is your point of view on this?
                      2. Cavas
                        +4
                        19 December 2012 22: 59
                        Quote: 22 rus
                        What is your point of view on this?

                        1 September 1939 year!
                        This is not my point of view - this is a story and it needs to be known, not redrawn.

                        And only G. Stimson, the foreign minister in the Hoover administration and the war minister under Roosevelt, admitted - World War II began on the rails of Mukden. This is the year 1931.
                      3. 22rus
                        -5
                        19 December 2012 23: 07
                        Quote: Cavas
                        1 September 1939 year!

                        1.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX the German-Polish war began .... which, due to known reasons, grew into the World War.
                        There is such a philosophical question ...
                        When did a person become an alcoholic? When did he start to leave for weekly binges or when he drank the first glass?
                        smile
                      4. Cavas
                        +3
                        19 December 2012 23: 36
                        Quote: 22 rus
                        There is such a philosophical question ...

                        Your normal comparisons are alcoholic and WWII! fool
                        It is a pity my grandfather is no longer alive, but he will probably have to finish for him what he missed!
                        You watch from 32 seconds, filosoFff ......

                      5. 22rus
                        -2
                        19 December 2012 23: 42
                        Quote: Cavas
                        Your normal comparisons are alcoholic and WWII!

                        Where did I compare alcoholics and WWII? What fright are you writing this from?

                        Quote: Cavas
                        You have to watch from 32 seconds, PhilosoFF.

                        With cowards on a stick - are you? Good ...
                      6. Cavas
                        +1
                        20 December 2012 00: 35
                        Quote: 22 rus
                        Where did I compare alcoholics and WWII? What fright are you writing this from?

                        Read your posts carefully!
                        Quote: 22 rus
                        With cowards on a stick - are you? Good ...

                        I am not Mironov and not a Jew, but he gave you a sweetener! laughing
                        And these cool words "Towards the puppy" ...! wassat
                      7. Kaa
                        +1
                        20 December 2012 02: 36
                        Quote: 22 rus
                        When did he start to leave for weekly binges or when he drank the first glass?

                        When conceived ...
                      8. +1
                        20 December 2012 10: 30
                        And Germany and France, that there was a German-French war and that Hitler did not plan to capture the whole of Europe? Some nonsense, teach a story friend.
                      9. 22rus
                        0
                        20 December 2012 12: 32
                        Quote: Simon
                        Some nonsense, teach a story friend.

                        People, why are you all so excited? request
                        Do you really think that among the participants in our community there are those who do not know when WW2 began ???
                        But if I answered non-standardly, is it really difficult to understand / guess / suppose, in the end, that my answer has some hidden subtext, the meaning of which is very simple.
                        Show / name me the person who in September 1939 precisely determined that the greatest massacre of the peoples of the world began on 1.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX. Predictions of the Nostradal not to offer.
                        What they did in the 30s of the twentieth century, the powerful people of the world with horror realized much later.
                        And show / name me a person who tomorrow’s border conflict somewhere on the Turkish / Iranian / any other border will definitely determine the beginning of WW3.
                        This is about the responsibility of leaders to history.
                        And in response to me they waved cowards on a stick, they poke a muzzle in common truths and strive to fix a kick under the zd.
                        Thank you.
                    2. -7
                      19 December 2012 22: 44
                      Yes? It turns out I'm not educated. recourse
                      I can’t even bring you links-useless.
                      1. 22rus
                        -3
                        19 December 2012 22: 51
                        Quote: professor
                        Yes? It turns out I'm not educated. recourse
                        I can’t even bring you links-useless.

                        I see they did not understand me.
                        Get well.
                        This The Second World War began on December 7, 1941.
                        Before that, hostilities were fought at the European Theater of War.
                        Local conflicts in Asia do not count, as are not very related to the European mess
                        Border (in the sense of the European theater of operations) - the Iraqi operation, the Iranian operation, the Syrian-Lebanese operation, and so on - do not count due to pettyness.
                        smile
                      2. -1
                        19 December 2012 23: 01
                        The true Second World War began on December 7 1941.

                        I understand that real, and before that I had fun. Good night to you.
                      3. Cavas
                        +2
                        19 December 2012 23: 10
                        Quote: professor
                        I understood that it was real, and before that I had fun. Good night to you.

                        One of the only moments when I support you! hi

                        "- How does a smart Jew talk to a stupid Jew?"
                        "Only by phone and from America."
                      4. 22rus
                        -5
                        19 December 2012 23: 20
                        Quote: professor
                        I understood that it was real, and before that I had fun.

                        Yeah .. And you thought that Hitler told his soldiers so on 1.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX. : "We begin the second world" Whistle. Throw-in. Let's go! smile
                        Just at first it flowed in different places from different slots and from different pipes that are not connected to each other. But it flowed at the same time. And then. when all the streams connected the World began. And they joined on December 7.12.1941, XNUMX.
                      5. Cavas
                        +1
                        19 December 2012 23: 03
                        Quote: 22 rus
                        Local conflicts in Asia do not count

                        By this time, the Chinese had already lost about 20 million only in the repulsed Japanese aggression.
                        That is, they do not count ?????
                      6. 22rus
                        -3
                        19 December 2012 23: 11
                        Quote: Cavas
                        That is, they do not count ?????

                        It doesn’t count in the sense that it was in no way connected with 1.9.1939.
                      7. Cavas
                        +2
                        19 December 2012 23: 26
                        Quote: 22 rus
                        It doesn’t count in the sense that it was in no way connected with 1.9.1939.

                        Sit study!
                        This is for a start!
                        The main events preceding the war
                        1935.10.02/XNUMX/XNUMX Italy sends troops to Ethiopia.
                        1936.07.17 Spain. The military rebellion led by Francisco Franco in Spanish Morocco was raised under the slogan of protecting religion and traditional values. As a result of numerous clashes between the people and the military, a civil war begins in the country.
                        1938.03.12 Anschluss. German troops enter Austria, and on March 13 it is announced that it is part of the Reich.
                        1938.07.11 A clash of Soviet and Japanese troops began on the border with Manchukuo (fighting continues until August 11) near Lake Khasan (see the article Military conflict in the area of ​​Lake Khasan).
                        1938.09.29 Conference in Munich (until 30 September) at which British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, French Prime Minister Édouard Daladier, Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini agree on a German military occupation of the Sudetenland, subject to guarantees of inviolability borders of Czechoslovakia. Germany is turning into the dominant power in Europe, as a result of which the Little Entente and the French system of cooperation in Eastern Europe lose their meaning and existence. Upon his arrival in London, Chamberlain declares that he has brought "an honorable peace" and speaks of his belief that this will indeed be peace for all.
                        1939.03.14/XNUMX/XNUMX In response to Hitler's ultimatum demand, the former Prime Minister of the Autonomous Government of Slovakia, Josef Tiso, declares its independence from Czechoslovakia.
                        1939.08. Negotiations were held in Moscow between the British, French and Soviet delegations on containing the aggression of Nazi Germany. The negotiations ended in vain.
                      8. Cavas
                        +1
                        19 December 2012 23: 27
                        1939.03.15/XNUMX/XNUMX German troops occupy Bohemia and Moravia in Czechoslovakia. On the evening of this day, Hitler makes a triumphal entry into Prague. The occupied regions are declared a German protectorate, whose head is Konstantin von Neurath.
                        1939.08.23/80/XNUMX Molotov and Ribbentrop signed a non-aggression pact in Moscow. The parties agree not to conduct military operations against each other. The secret protocols discovered later (appeared in the press in the XNUMXs in the context of growing anti-Russian hysteria; the authenticity of the document is being questioned) approve the plan for the division of Poland and the freedom of action of the USSR in the Baltic countries, Finland and Bessarabia.
                        1939.08.31 Japanese troops were completely defeated in the battle with the Soviets on the Khalkhin Gol River (see the article Battle on the Khalkhin Gol River).
                        1939.09.01 Germany invaded Poland (September 1, 1939 is considered the beginning of World War II).
                        1939.09.01 The Supreme Soviet of the USSR adopted a law on universal military duty.
                        1939.09.03/10/1940 Great Britain and France declare war on Germany after she leaves unanswered their ultimatum to stop aggression against Poland. New Zealand and Australia also declare war on Germany. From that time until May XNUMX, XNUMX, the so-called "Strange War" takes place.
                        1939.09.05 The US government declared neutrality in the war.
                        1939.09.06 The South African Union declared war on Germany.
                        1939.09.10 Canada declared war on Germany.
                        1939.09.15 USSR, Mongolia and Japan signed an agreement on the cessation of hostilities in the Khalkhin Gol river area.
                        1939.09.17/XNUMX/XNUMX Soviet troops occupied the eastern regions of Poland (Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, territories inhabited mainly by Ukrainians and Belarusians).
                        1939.11.01 The Supreme Soviet of the USSR at its 5th session (See Government report on foreign policy). legislated the inclusion of the territory of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus into the USSR.
                        1939.11.04 The US Congress passes an amendment permitting the sale of weapons and military materials to belligerent countries.
                        1939.11. The Polish emigre government in Angers (France) declared a state of war with the Soviet Union.
                        1939.11.30 Soviet troops invaded Finland (this so-called Winter War lasted until March 12, 1940 and is not considered part of the Second World War). The government of the Democratic Republic of Finland was formed, headed by Otto Kuusinen.
                        1939.12.14 The Soviet Union was expelled from the League of Nations in connection with the attack on Finland.
                        1940.03.12 Between the USSR and Finland, a peace treaty was signed: the Karelian Isthmus, part of the peninsulas, left the USSR.
                        1940.04.09 Germany occupied Denmark and Norway.
                      9. 22rus
                        -2
                        19 December 2012 23: 45
                        DO NOT rush into the embrasure.
                        Calm down, I know quite well when WW2 started.
                      10. Cavas
                        0
                        20 December 2012 00: 36
                        Quote: 22 rus
                        Calm down, I know quite well when WW2 started.

                        I doubt it! negative
                      11. 0
                        21 December 2012 09: 14
                        Please tell me, where does such data come from?
                      12. +3
                        20 December 2012 00: 23
                        Then the First World War was not.
                        There was no Pacific theater of war (besides the relatively peaceful occupation of several German colonies), which means that there was no First World War. Small European feuds. There, however, at the end the Americans sailed. Then, it turns out 6 April 1917 years The First World War began ... or did not start ...
                        Quote: 22 rus
                        Border (in the sense of the European theater of operations) - the Iraqi operation, the Iranian operation, the Syrian-Lebanese operation, and so on - do not count due to pettyness.
                        - Yeah, and Rommel in Africa played pokatushki only for the sake of the process itself. In general, it is customary to mention the operations you cited in the context of the Mediterranean theater of war of World War II. There were also other theaters that were "not connected" with each other. The Battle of the Atlantic and the Manchurian operation do not correlate either in geography or in direct participants. That's what World War is for.
                        As for the beginning of World War I can say one thing. It began precisely on 1 of September 1939 in view of the fact that, in fact, hostilitiesaimed at achieving the ultimate goal of Germany and the Axis countries - world domination. Again, then the World. All countries of one bloc could not simultaneously oppose another. It was not possible.
                        In addition, think about how the World War differs from the ordinary? Naturally, the vastness of the theater of war, but also the number of warring countries. By December 1941, most countries were already embroiled in a world carnage, for it had been going on for two years ...
                      13. 22rus
                        0
                        20 December 2012 06: 10
                        Quote: Bronis
                        As for the beginning of World War I can say one thing. It began on September 1, 1939.

                        Who same could say that 1 September 1939 r?
                    3. -3
                      19 December 2012 23: 51
                      Is this an original look at history?
                      1. 22rus
                        -2
                        20 December 2012 06: 16
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Is this an original look at history?

                        Well I said that this is a philosophical question smile Like before, a chicken or an egg.
                        1.09.39 historical events began, which by the end of the 41st turned into a world war.
                        1.09.39 not a single person on Earth knew that WW2 began.
                        December 7.12.41, XNUMX, the whole world understood this.
                      2. -1
                        20 December 2012 13: 35
                        This is all sophistry. September 1, 1939 was officially considered to be the date of World War II, because everything went from local conflicts to a conflict involving a large number of countries
                      3. +1
                        18 November 2013 14: 51
                        September 1 of 1939 is officially considered to be the date of World War II, because everything went from local conflicts to a conflict involving a large number of countries

                        From a formal point of view - yes, in fact - far from it. First, only Germany and Poland with minimal participation of the USSR (or is the "strange war" not strange anymore?); then - Germany and France with the feasible participation of England; followed by the Balkans, where Italy hindered Germany rather than helped; then Germany and the USSR with the benevolent participation of England and the USA; then the showdown between Japan and the United States, which did not affect the alignment in Europe.

                        Mussolini's African adventures, into which Germany was entangled, does not count (it was later that Rommel's successes were temporarily so overwhelming that Hitler, as always, his eyes lit up and his hands began to shake. But the great Fuhrer often had bouts of dizziness from his successes, in which he often the desired was seen as valid). As well as the only TKR raid "Admiral Graf von Spee" and the failed campaign of the "Bismarck". Yes, the geography turned out to be significant, but the duration and effectiveness of these campaigns are so ridiculous that I would venture to express a seditious thought: WWII began on June 22, 1941 and ended on August 2, 1945. The argument was that it was a war of two systems, in which a compromise such as the surrender of France or an agreement the division of spheres of influence in peace with England simply could not be. Stalin understood this, and Hitler also agreed. And all the other participants are allies (of varying degrees of reliability and duration), fellow travelers, political adventurers and profit seekers. Their participation was just episodes that had practically no effect on the main balance of power.
                  2. Baboon
                    +3
                    19 December 2012 23: 59
                    And whoever likes it, U. Churchill generally said that this was not the Second World War, but a continuation of the unfinished World War I.
                    1. 0
                      20 December 2012 00: 01
                      And in many ways he was right
                    2. +2
                      18 November 2013 14: 55
                      Quote: Babon
                      Churchill generally said that this was not World War II, but a continuation of unfinished World War I.

                      And he was absolutely right. Who, if not him, should know which time-bombed mine was planted in Europe by his Versailles world. And what kind of bear was teased in the east, leaving him wounded, bleeding in a hopeless situation ... One wonders not that after 1918 the second world showdown appeared in a new form, but that it appeared so late.
                  3. +3
                    20 December 2012 00: 22
                    Quote: professor
                    No one forgets the "Munich Agreement '38", however

                    And it’s better to remember the militarization of the Rhine region and the Naval Treaty between Great Britain and Germany, which actually legitimized Germany’s refusal to comply with the Versailles Treaty.
                    Here it is the beginning of the Second World War --- the Anglo-French allowed Germany AGAIN to arms hoping to set her against the USSR. This is possible even by the ratio of fleets in the agreement Germany was allowed to have 20% of the tonnage of England, not fatal for England (which the war proved) but for The North and Baltic Forts of the USSR were with a head.
                    Draw conclusions.
                  4. major1976
                    +2
                    20 December 2012 01: 32
                    The USSR occupied the territory of supposedly Poland, but in fact Ukraine and Belarus, that is, their original only on September 17.09.1939, 1938, when the master's government fled with its tail between its legs, leaving the people and the army in London !!! And in general, you shouldn't sculpt a victim from Poland !!! Even Sir Winston Churchill, apparently dearly beloved by you, used to say that Poland is the hyena of Europe !!! If it were not for Poland, two well-known countries (one of which lasted only a couple of weeks against the blitzkrieg), then in XNUMX there would have been our valiant warriors in Berlin and I'm sure Hitler would not have been able to leave our mortal world so quickly and easily (although at that moment he have not yet committed all the atrocities that horrified humanity) !!! Although you are a "professor" but apparently other sciences are not historical !!!
                  5. Andof odessa
                    +3
                    20 December 2012 12: 48
                    Dear it only proves your bias. consider the beginning of World War II when Anglo-French allies entered it. there are those who quite justifiably consider the first act of World War 2 as Japan’s attack on China. since it was after this that the complete bankruptcy of the league of nations became clear. and the irreversibility of a new redivision of the world. and the term 2, the world’s term, just the western term, for us the war was and is in trouble GREAT DOMESTIC.
                  6. +1
                    21 December 2012 12: 06
                    Yes, come on. The start date was taken quite arbitrarily, historians decided to think so and that’s all. With the same success it was possible to count from March 1939
                  7. +2
                    18 November 2013 14: 17
                    Quote: professor
                    however, do not remind us when the Second World War began and how it began,

                    And why are you dissatisfied with the date of 1936, for example, when Japan began large-scale military operations in China? Or 1938, when the fighting on Khasan began? Or 1939, but not from the notorious Poland, but from Halkin-Gol? Or are they all "local conflicts"? In terms of the scale of hostilities and the number of troops involved on both sides, the entire Polish campaign of the Wehrmacht (without the Red Army troops, which entered the war three days before its end) is comparable to the battles on Halkin Gol. Or does the "heavy burden of the white man" prevent us from looking at events from this perspective?

                    But in general, God bless him, with the Far East. Wars do not start with a shot on the other side of the border. This is a pretext, such as the murder of the Ernz-Duke Ferdinand (just a refrain of some kind already). The reasons ripen in high government offices, are nurtured in the general staffs and only in the last turn are realized on the battlefield. It is strange that such an "intelligent" opponent like you does not know these elementary truths. Or stubbornly refuses to know?
              6. -1
                19 December 2012 20: 51
                comrade, remember Spain that you pledged a pact, read the story and you will not look like a rezunovsky gorval
              7. Baboon
                +2
                19 December 2012 23: 09
                So all countries concluded pacts, not only the USSR.
              8. major1976
                +2
                20 December 2012 01: 20
                The Molotov-Ribentrop Pact still haunts you in Europe! But sorry professor, in my opinion, this should not bother you! The Anglo-Saxons achieved victories at all costs by stepping over and stepping on corpses! Sing your song to them! And in general, was there a pact itself, namely its secret protocol? Or were your EU neighbors sucked out of the finger during the Cold War? And about the pact itself, the whole European press of that time justified this step of the USSR !!! And what if England and France turned their backs on an outstretched hand! Moreover, his country, which survived the treason of these countries in the First World War and their intervention in civilian life, was holding out! Therefore, as they say in Russia, whose cow would moo and yours would be silent! My regards!
                1. +1
                  20 December 2012 08: 47
                  And in general, was there a pact itself, namely, its secret protocol? Or were your EU neighbors sucked out of the finger during the Cold War?

                  CEP, come. wassat
              9. +1
                20 December 2012 19: 34
                The West, too, with Hitler, "vas-vaskat", so that the Pact was quite in the spirit of that time. Diplomacy, eprst .. Everyone then "sinned" like that
              10. +1
                21 December 2012 07: 40
                Tell me better about the Munich conspiracy of 1938. Or is it not very convenient for you? Or do you think that with beaten and hackneyed phrases and reproaches about the 1939 pact you will cause a feeling of guilt and self-humiliation? worked for hitler? And, now, that Great Stalin was a strong supporter of the creation of Israel forgot ...
            2. -3
              19 December 2012 14: 09
              "coexistence policy"? It's like, my dear political scientist? Although the professor has already chewed everything up for you.
          2. -1
            19 December 2012 15: 17
            Quote: professor
            Are you talking about these?

            What is that photo?
            From a family album, or what?
          3. 0
            19 December 2012 20: 49
            I don’t remember that in 41 the Germans would have been armed with at least one model of weapons from the USSR, or maybe Stalin armed Hitler with a kind word ?, many suckers-rezun uplifters forget that the USSR alone fought with the Nazis in Spain, trying to crush fascism until it crawled up and didn’t grow stronger if you are fighting alone and supposedly friends are standing behind and spitting while looking at whom, you or you, you kind of got out of the fray, will you help those who looked at you a minute ago?
            1. +5
              19 December 2012 21: 39
              Quote: tomket
              I don’t remember that in 41 the Germans would have been armed with at least one model of weapons from the USSR,


              By the way, Manstein was in prostration when in 1941 his troops captured the 88mm Flakov battery from the Soviet units, then when not all Germans had it that was supposed to be in the states)))))
          4. Kaa
            +2
            20 December 2012 00: 57
            Quote: professor
            Are you talking about these?

            What about these? A memory photo - a Jewish policeman, two Jews and a German guard. Warsaw Ghetto, 1942
            1. -2
              20 December 2012 01: 06
              Kaa
              And what should this photograph illustrate in the topic of tank deliveries to the USSR from Britain and the Dominions?
              1. Kaa
                +2
                20 December 2012 01: 27
                Quote: Aron Zaavi
                And what this photograph should illustrate

                The photo posted by the professor above "General G. Guderian and brigade commander S.M. Krivoshein take a joint parade of Soviet and
                German units in Brest on the occasion of the transfer of the city under the jurisdiction of the USSR. "
                Kombrig Krivoshein Semyon Moiseevich, by the way, a Jew by nationality, did not accept the parade, but controlled the withdrawal of German troops, saving Belarusian Jews from moving quickly to the Warsaw ghetto, where they existed under the joint protection (from whom?) Of the Jewish police and the SS, the truth is not long - then there was Auschwitz. This example of cooperation impresses me much more than the adoption of the city by the Red Army from the Wehrmacht ...
                1. -5
                  20 December 2012 08: 53
                  where they existed under the joint protection (from whom?) of the Jewish police and the SS, though not for long - then there was Auschwitz. This example of cooperation impresses me much more than the adoption of the city by the Red Army from the Wehrmacht ...

                  You would have to learn a story about what local governments in ghettos and camps were doing, and then maybe you would not expose your ignorance to the whole world. Especially this Commander Krivoshein Semyon Moiseevich, by the way, a Jew by nationality, did not accept the parade
                  Soviet-German military parade 1939 of the year

                  1. major1976
                    +3
                    20 December 2012 11: 23
                    Again, for your sake, it’s enough to distort the pseudo-historical facts !!! Especially for you I’ll explain there was no PARADE, but there was only a solemn passage of the troops of the two countries — the German troops left the city, and the Soviet entered it !!! And by the way, the brigade commander Krivoshein refused a joint parade and as a result of the above !!! And in general we are too distant from the topic of the article which was about Lend-Lease, its price and benefits !!! And the pact with Germany has absolutely nothing to do with it !!!
                    1. -5
                      20 December 2012 11: 33
                      There was no PARADE, but only a ceremonial passage of troops

                      CEP, how is it with the Russian language?
                      Parade (fr. Parade, Spanish. Parada, from lat. Paro) - solemn passage (solemn march) of troops or military equipment.
                      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4
                      1. Andof odessa
                        +4
                        20 December 2012 13: 03
                        Dear you yourself said above that Wikipedia is not a source, so please do not reference it laughing
                      2. -1
                        20 December 2012 13: 19
                        Will it suit you? laughing
                        PARADE
                        m. 1. Solemn passage of troops (ships, planes), as well as athletes. P. Victory. Festive n. Marine, air n. 2. At the circus: a ceremonial entrance to the arena of all artists. 3. Same as parade (dec. Jokes.). Came with the whole parade. * Parade of planets (special) - this is the location of most of the planets when they appear visible in the same direction from the Sun. || adj. ceremonial, th, th (to 1 and 2 meanings). P. review
                        http://ozhegov.info/slovar/?q=%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4
                      3. Andof odessa
                        +2
                        20 December 2012 14: 47
                        Thanks, enough. then the actions reflected in the photographs can be described as a PARADE removal of Germans from the city under the control of our military leaders.
                      4. +2
                        18 November 2013 15: 11
                        There was a parade, was not; there was a parade or a ceremonial passage ... As for me - why not rejoice? Our troops without fights and losses (or this is also evidence of something reprehensible) got their original territories, which Poland, for some historical perplexity, regards as its whole life, even used the Wehrmacht a little, after which they asked its troops to withdraw from the designated territories - What is not a reason for a holiday?
                        The Germans are also not in trouble: at last they solved their problems with the arrogant pzheks, the lands that they considered to be theirs, they returned the force of arms, they brilliantly completed the entire campaign - is this also no reason for triumph? Well, if the two reasons coincided - who is the doctor for whom (except for the psychiatrist)?
            2. -3
              20 December 2012 13: 38
              In prison, there is a duty on camera, in the colony - foremen of work. Do they become less prisoner from this? No. Are they free to leave prison or camp? No.
              And, for the sake of interest - it’s like we are talking about lendlize. Anti-Semitic?
          5. sapulid
            +4
            20 December 2012 02: 46
            Prof, I have always favored you, but now I won't. The parade was in the former Polish territories in honor of the joint defeat of Poland. Let me remind you that it was Poland that did not allow the Red Army to help Czechoslovakia, it was not enough; it even took part in the division of its territory together with Hitler. Can you recall the "Munich Agreement" of England and France? Maybe remind about the refusal of the latter in alliance with the USSR?

            I don’t put a minus, but for the distortion of facts, your authority in my eyes has fallen sharply.
            1. -4
              20 December 2012 08: 57
              I don’t put a minus, but for the distortion of facts, your authority in my eyes has fallen sharply.

              I'm not here for pluses - minus for health. Nevertheless, the fact of "love and friendship" between Hitler and Stalin cannot be concealed (thousands of documents have been published) as it is not regrettable. Note, I do not justify either Poland or the Anglo-Saxons, but I will not make white and fluffy from the USSR, and I will not let others.
              1. sapulid
                +2
                20 December 2012 10: 15
                Quote: professor
                Note, I do not justify either Poland or the Anglo-Saxons, but I will not make white and fluffy from the USSR and I will not give it to others.


                Let me ask you, with whom are you arguing? Each country (the ruling cohort thereof) has a main goal: "survival". Therefore, politics, a priori, cannot be pure, because this is nothing more than behavior in a "pack of comrades", moreover, cannibals.

                The question was posed differently. You can’t argue by pulling facts out of the context of history. One action is a logical continuation of the previous ones. I think you know this, no less than me. If this is so, then you, Professor, simply cheated in a dispute, and this does not add respect.

                By the way, it was not a question of cons. Less rarely. Only when they get it.
                1. -5
                  20 December 2012 10: 21
                  Let me ask who are you arguing with?

                  With those who claim that the USSR did not help Nazi Germany.
                  1. sapulid
                    +1
                    20 December 2012 12: 58
                    Quote: professor
                    Let me ask who are you arguing with?

                    With those who claim that the USSR did not help Nazi Germany.


                    Put the question correctly and you will have no opponents left. Maybe it’s worth asking about whether there was mutually beneficial cooperation between the USSR and Hitler Germany before 22.06.1941? If, yes, then what did both parties get from this and what caused this interaction? So, it is worth asking about other countries that had similar relations with Hitler's Germany.
                  2. Andof odessa
                    +3
                    20 December 2012 13: 16
                    The USSR achieved its geopolitical goals. however, he did not betray a single ally for the entire time of his existence. which cannot be said of other participants in the big game of that time. and on the Lend-Lease account, one can recall 1945 and the preparation for the operation. The Unthinkable, and this is what happened when we were allies and the ruins of the Reichstag were still warm, they supplied us in many respects due to the fact that neither the United States nor England were alone against the Axis countries if they couldn’t resist, they needed a shield behind which they could create their army. Thank you with all my heart to the workers of the United States and the British Commonwealth.
              2. major1976
                0
                22 December 2012 18: 42
                Well, directly unsinkable aircraft carrier USA !!!
              3. +2
                18 November 2013 15: 14
                Quote: professor
                but I’m not going to make white and fluffy from the USSR either and I won’t let others.

                Already scary ...
          6. +1
            21 December 2012 01: 34
            Indeed, the last train with grain for Germany crossed the border exactly after midnight 22 / 06 / 41 ....
            1. +2
              18 November 2013 15: 19
              Indeed, the last train with grain for Germany passed through the border exactly after midnight 22 / 06 / 41 ...

              And what of this? ... And the distance from Kiev to Simferopol in a straight line is exactly 666 km. Does this also mean something? Or is numerology still missing on the site for a change?
              1. +3
                17 August 2014 18: 11
                Quote: Alex
                Or is numerology still missing on the site for a change?
                As always - to the point!
          7. 0
            21 December 2012 07: 33
            And also Joseph Vissarionovich delivered the girls to him, after special castings ... Didn't hear about this? Look for photos.
      2. +3
        19 December 2012 10: 36
        Chapaev "And if not for them, maybe they would live now in the recreational zone beyond the Urals"
        Nothing would happen. Where we live, they would live there. But how much they would mess with the Germans without us! Or the Germans with the Anglo-Saxons! No difference!
      3. +7
        19 December 2012 10: 41
        Quote: Chapaev
        And if it weren’t for them, maybe they would live now in a recreation zone beyond the Urals

        Are you serious?
        Thinks that Britam, it was a matter of where we will live?
        Glory to God that this was decided by the soldiers and officers of the Red Army, and not by them,
        otherwise we, now, would not only not live in the Urals, but also beyond.
        I doubt that the Anglo-Saxons and Co., treated us better than the Natsiks,
        yes, they actually didn’t hide it.
      4. +2
        19 December 2012 10: 49
        Chapaev,
        Oh, not a fact!
      5. +1
        19 December 2012 17: 57

        Not allies, but allies. And our great-grandfathers fought with them side by side against a common enemy. And if it weren’t for them, maybe they would live now in a recreation zone beyond the Urals

        Even without help, the USSR would have survived, would have lost 5-10 million more people, but would have survived. Germany opened its mouth to too large a prey and choked.
      6. 0
        21 December 2012 07: 30
        Where did they fight side by side? The article specifically says either under the bullets or to the machines. Of course, due to their mentality, they got up to the machines. And at the same time they managed to do some harm. One PQ-17 was worth it. military operations when Stalin specifically said: well, we will end the war ourselves. Fear of losing all of Europe and it is still unknown what pushed them. And then, right away in the Ardennes .... smiling. And again, due to the blood of our fathers and grandfathers crawled out of shit. And it was they who DID NOT GIVE Fascists to the Urals to reach? You probably studied on their textbooks and did not see mass graves from Mozhaika to Berlin. MINUS.
    2. -1
      19 December 2012 20: 45
      the planes also went on the principle of God for me that I am worthless
  4. Chapaev
    +2
    19 December 2012 09: 38
    It’s a good article as a whole, but it didn’t quite understand the first part of it, where the author vigorously teaches us about how the damned capitalists did not want to go to war and made us pay with the blood of our soldiers. Okay, at least it still happened that they delivered us the equipment! Thanks to this, hundreds of our soldiers did not have to fight against tanks with rifles, but on equal terms.
  5. snek
    +5
    19 December 2012 10: 17
    An article at the level of the political analytics circle in kindergarten.
    The Americans faced a choice:
    a) go under bullets;
    b) get up to the machine.

    Hitler a) did not intend b) even if he did not intend to be able to fight the USA (the author may not know, but the USA and Germany have no land border, and the German fleet would have to be built up to that level for another ten years to conduct an assault through ocean).
    It’s clear that the Americans were using us. But that was a big political game, one of the participants was the USSR itself. First, we played very well the map of Poland (we managed to push the borders aside) and then merged the map of France (imagine if in May 1940 Stalin had declared that the USSR could not tolerate such unprovoked aggression and would have attacked Germany from the rear - we would have had the same war "on a foreign land, with little blood", but the USSR was playing for time and poured out France) and then they played us.
    And while trying to show that Landley was actually the author, in fact, concentrates on tanks, when the basis of landlize is materials.
    Article "-" for pseudo-analytics.
    1. 22rus
      +1
      19 December 2012 10: 28
      Quote: snek
      And while trying to show that Landley was actually the author, in fact, concentrates on tanks, when the basis of landlize is materials.

      So the article is called "Tank Lend-Lease". Therefore, only about tanks. The materials will probably be called "Gasoline Lend-Lease". Or "Nitroglycerin Lend-Lease". Or Cotton Lend-Lease.
      1. snek
        +4
        19 December 2012 10: 32
        Then there was no need to write such a detailed introduction.
        Over the past half century, “Lend-Lease” has grown with many myths and legends - what kind of program it was, what its conditions and significance were for the USSR during the war, these issues are the cause of heated debate between staunch supporters of anti-Western politics “paid with gold for worthless trash” and loyal lovers of democratic values, "America nobly extended a helping hand." In fact, everything is much more interesting..

        This paragraph unequivocally indicates that now the author will abruptly begin to pluck the veils from the truth and we will find out how everything was really related to the whole lendlize.
        1. 22rus
          -1
          19 December 2012 10: 53
          As for this phrase, perhaps I agree. Since the author did not say anything new and interesting about the meaning of Lend-Lease (although he promised), it would be better to write
          In fact, everything is much more interesting easier.
          1. snek
            +4
            19 December 2012 11: 02
            Well, remove the introduction, name the article "British tanks in the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War" and the result would be normal, albeit somewhat subjective material.
            1. Skavron
              +1
              19 December 2012 11: 58
              snek Perhaps you should put a plus for the comments
          2. -1
            19 December 2012 16: 59
            Quote: 22 rus
            it would be better to write
            In fact, everything is much more interesting easier.


            No, it wouldn't be better. A little lower in the text there is already a synonym for "simpler", and two identical words - it sounds wrong, I had to look for an alternative.

            in fact, everything is much more interesting.

            The Lend-Lease Bill is just an American law passed on 11 on March 1941. The meaning of the document simple
        2. 0
          19 December 2012 16: 55
          Quote: snek
          Then there was no need to write such a detailed introduction.


          Without this entry, there would now be 1000 comments about paying Lendlis: they paid with gold for worthless trash, no, they didn’t pay anything - the USSR threw its unlucky allies like suckers (and rightly so!), No, you are wrong, you paid with blood, no you didn’t pay - all in debt ...
          A voluminous introduction avoided all this meaningless conversation.
    2. +4
      19 December 2012 15: 53
      The United States and Japan also have no land borders, but they fought, "the guy was buzzing."
      The fact that the Americans did their best to substitute the USSR for Hitler - I agree.
      And further. History knows no subjunctive mood. How would it have been if the USSR had been the first to violate the non-aggression pact, it's hard to say. I think Hitler did not rule out this option either. France was not a "player". Some show-off.
      And there was no "unprovoked aggression" by Hitler against France, along the way. France declared war on Germany back in 39th. Although she already knew about the notorious "pact" and hardly hoped that the USSR would help her. Yes, Stalin would not have helped her after the Munich Agreement and the surrender of Czechoslovakia. Everything was very logical. Illogically Hitler entered in June 41st. IMHO.
      1. snek
        +2
        19 December 2012 16: 31
        Quote: ikrut
        The fact that the Americans did their best to substitute the USSR for Hitler - I agree.

        There was a game - we tried to substitute the West for Hitler’s blow, and the West tried to substitute us for Hitler’s blow. First, we won (German attack on France), and then it turned out that we lost everything (well, except for the states).
        Quote: ikrut
        As if it were, if the USSR were the first to violate the non-aggression pact, it’s hard to say. I think Hitler didn’t exclude this option either.

        Well, what would he be able to oppose to the Red Army? On the eastern border in May 40, Germany had nothing that could somehow compete with the forces of the Red Army in this direction. If he began to transfer forces from France, he would be stuck there and the "transferred" would be forced to engage in battle after a long march.
        Quote: ikrut
        France was not a "player". Some show-off.

        This is clearly seen in retrospect, and then even Hitler could hardly believe how easy the victory was (the numbers of the French army in the 40th year were one of the strongest and most modern in the world).
        1. +1
          19 December 2012 17: 02
          Quote: snek
          and then it turned out that everyone lost (well, except for the states).

          In a major bloody war, the one who takes the least part in it always wins.
          1. +2
            18 November 2013 15: 26
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            In a major bloody war, the one who takes the least part in it always wins.

            Until the beginning of the twentieth century, England was brilliantly successful. Now to the States. And we almost always have nothing but the highest price. It's a shame, yes ...
    3. +2
      19 December 2012 16: 50
      Quote: snek
      And while trying to show that Landley was actually the author, in fact, concentrates on tanks, when the basis of landlize is materials.


      Uh ... in the same place it is highlighted in black and white:

      British armored vehicles - this is clearly not something that could change the situation on the Eastern Front. For a more sober assessment of Lend-Lease, you should look at other things.For example, deliveries of trucks and jeeps (car lend-lease) or food supplies (4,5 million tons).
  6. 0
    19 December 2012 11: 21
    Lord and Mr. snek, such nonsense throws up, It seems that everything is correct but the conclusions are opposite, divorced from that distant reality now, Read the German statement about the beginning of the war with the USSR,
  7. 0
    19 December 2012 12: 07
    Valentine - was a normal machine. Until the end of the war, it was in demand in our TAs. In addition, in the 2nd half of the war, they were often installed 6-pounds (57 mm). But the T-70 for reconnaissance and vanguard operations was not a blunder.
  8. Skavron
    +1
    19 December 2012 12: 18
    Each 80 horsepower - It is easy to imagine how high the mobility of this machine was.
    160 hp for 27 tons is cool ???
    Yes, this is not power, but weakness ...
    already for this article "-"
    1. 22rus
      0
      19 December 2012 12: 40
      Quote: Skavron
      60 hp for 27 tons is cool ???
      Yes, this is not power, but weakness ...

      Well, yes, the T-34 is more powerful. But the Mk-II engine worked 550-600 hours without failures, although the British only guaranteed 220 hours of uptime.
      Compare with the declared and real hours for the B-2.
      1. Skavron
        0
        19 December 2012 12: 57
        Yes, I won’t compare anything ... I just pointed out that the author is clearly wrong, considering Matilda a mobile tank.
        1. +3
          19 December 2012 13: 53
          Skavron
          And why did you decide that he considers her a tank with high mobility :))
          I saw the opposite, the irony:
          ... it's easy to imagine how high the mobility of this machine was.
          1. Skavron
            0
            19 December 2012 14: 03
            Well, if so, then of course)

            UPD Although I’ve re-read it now .... not the irony ... the author relates this to the advantages
            1. +1
              19 December 2012 17: 01
              Quote: Skavron
              PD Although I’ve read it now .... not the irony ... the author relates this to the advantages


              Irony.
              The specific power of Matilda 6 hp / ton is below all limits
              1. Skavron
                -1
                19 December 2012 17: 39
                Questions to the author ....
                But if this is irony, then the whole article is from the category of "article in" crocodile ".

                So I think that the author really drives or seriously writes such things.
                1. Skavron
                  +1
                  20 December 2012 10: 47
                  ah ah ah)))) some Anglophiles will pass)))
                  DO YOU REALLY THINK MATILDA A MOBILE TANK ???
                  it’s funny to me by God)))
  9. +7
    19 December 2012 13: 56
    It’s a pity that the Sherman’s English modification didn’t fail. It would be useful in the fight against German heavy tanks. About tanks - the main thing here is to use them correctly - and there will be no bad tanks, cans, and ignition. The Germans used EVERYTHING, up to T-60
    1. +3
      19 December 2012 14: 18
      I agree. Everything rests on combat use.
    2. snek
      +3
      19 December 2012 14: 20
      Quote: Kars
      here the main thing is to use them correctly

      There is no arguing. If you look only at the characteristics of German and Soviet tanks in the 41st, then in theory the Germans did not have a single chance (early t-3 and t-4 against t-34-76 and kv-1)
    3. +1
      19 December 2012 15: 00
      Kars (1)
      НGermans used EVERYTHING, up to T-60

      But, as far as I know, not in mobile connections and not systemically (until the first breakdown and before the development of the CD).
      "Reich" here, with a company of Kharkov T-34s in the 43rd, is perhaps an exception.
      1. +3
        19 December 2012 17: 04
        Quote: BigRiver
        about, as far as I know, not in mobile connections and not systemically (until the first breakdown and before the development of the CD).

        Not well known. The theme of trophies in the Wehrmacht is a storehouse of interesting things.
        For example, the last KV-2 defended the Reich Chancellery together with the French SS Charlemagne.
        1. +2
          19 December 2012 17: 10
          Quote: BigRiver
          before the first breakdown and before the development of BC).
        2. +2
          19 December 2012 17: 31
          I myself have such revolvers :)))
          By the lack of consistency, I meant:
          - the creation of parts on the technique of the same type as part of tank formations;
          - centralized and regular provision of s / h and BC;
          - providing repair and maintenance.
          For example, F-22 was used as a limited standard, but systemically.
          Even the shots in Germany were specially developed for it and produced / supplied.
          1. +1
            19 December 2012 18: 14
            Quote: BigRiver
            I myself find such revolvers :)))
            By the lack of consistency, I meant:

            Unknowingly
            Quote: BigRiver
            But, as far as I know, not in mobile connections and not systemically (until the first breakdown and before the development of the CD).

            And it’s not the first breakdown, and the VK’s mining of VCR was somewhat limiting the Germans, the fact that they didn’t do regiments and divisions of trophies would say nothing. Trophies were used in large quantities.
            Quote: BigRiver
            For example, F-22 was used as a limited standard, but systemically.
            Even the shots in Germany were specially developed and produced / supplied for it.

            Naturally, if they remade it for themselves, but this does not mean that the cash ML-20 and A-19 were not used by the Germans.

            maybe something interesting gets here
            http://www.achtungpanzer.eu/captured.php
        3. +2
          18 November 2013 19: 35
          Quote: Kars
          For example, the last KV-2 defended the Reich Chancellery together with the French SS Charlemagne.

          Well, that's not an indicator. Rather, a curiosity and bezishodnost. Then in a berdin, like a classic: "Horses, people mixed in a heap ..."
    4. +1
      19 December 2012 17: 23
      I noticed that the Matilda side screens fall below the hull:

      In the place of our warriors, I would hatch (do not forget Horseradish - plant) autogenous to the line of the hull, while Matilda would lose weight and solve the problem of dirt frozen between the screen and the tracks.
      1. 22rus
        +3
        19 December 2012 17: 36
        Quote: cth; fyn
        a problem with the dirt frozen between the screen and the tracks.

        In such cases, it was enough just to turn the tank over and shake out the dirt. smile
        1. +1
          19 December 2012 18: 07
          What can I say? Bogatyrs, I wouldn’t be able to laughing
          In general, Otto Carius writes that bonfires were burned around the tanks.
          1. 0
            19 December 2012 21: 13
            Quote: cth; fyn
            What can I say? Bogatyrs, I wouldn’t be able to

            - Private Ivanov!
            - I!
            - Raise the tank!
            - I can’t drag the ensign
            - Well, what did you want! Etozh whole 50 tons!

            laughing
        2. 0
          19 December 2012 19: 16
          But still, you must agree, to dump 500-700 kilograms, with such engine power, and then gut.
      2. Skavron
        +1
        19 December 2012 17: 42
        Well, I don’t know ... it seems to me that the mud is stuck right at the top ...
    5. postman
      +1
      19 December 2012 22: 22
      Quote: Kars
      It is a pity that the English modification of Sherman did not fail.

      They (the British) themselves did not have enough: Until July 31, 1944, 699 tanks were converted, barely by day D had time.
      and who prevented to replace the 75 mm M3 L / 37,5 with the 85 mm ZIS-S-53 or 85 mm D-48?
      the British then changed to 76 mm QF 17 can be said on the knee
      There seems to be enough space, even AZ climbed:

      Since 1942, more than 4000 have been delivered to us.

      And what is worse than the 76 mm M1A2 compared to the 76 mm QF 17?
      1. +1
        20 December 2012 13: 56
        Quote: Postman
        And what is worse than the 76 mm M1A2 compared to the 76 mm QF 17?

        The question is of course very interesting --- but for some reason I did not hear the delighted American reviews about the success of the three-inch (76.2)
        17 pounds used two types of anti-tank ammunition. APCBC (Armor Piercing, Capped, Ballistic Capped) ammunition could penetrate 140 mm of armor at 457 meters and 131 mm at 914 m at 30 degrees. APDS (Armor Piercing, sub-caliber) could penetrate 208 mm of armor at 457 m and 192 mm at 914 m at 30 degrees, [5] [6] [7] allows it to penetrate into the armor, even the formidable Royal Tiger tank.


        And somehow it went that 17 pounds is considered the best anti-tank gun of the Allies.

        Towards the end of production the 76mm M1 cannon was installed in the last 300 or so M10, as it was being installed in the new production M4 Sherman tank at that time. The 76 mm M1 offered slightly better armor-piercing performance than the previous 3 "M7 cannon. [Edit]

        The British variant, designated "17pdr SP Achilles", was designed to mount a successful 17-pounder anti-tank gun in a modified turret. The 17-pounder had a similar hole, but was far superior to armor penetration capabilities. It was used by the British, Canadian and Polish armies in Italy and Northwest Europe

        Well, something like this, in principle, the table data is hard on the opirax, although it also comes with all of its own calculation methods, and the generalized ones reduced to the same denominator of the table did not fit me.
        1. postman
          +1
          20 December 2012 23: 47
          Quote: Kars
          admired three-inch success reviews (76.2

          In general, if we compare the M4 of the 1941 model and the M4A2 (HVSS) with a 76-mm gun, then progress is clearly visible. By the end of the war, only its enormous height remained from the great flaws of the M4.
          with M1A2
          76 mm cannon M1 surpassed in armor penetration 7,5 cm KwK 40 L / 43, and was equal to 7,5 cm KwK 40 L / 48 of later modifications of the “four”, but significantly inferior to modern German models, primarily 7,5 cm KwK 42 Panthers, and 8,8 cm KwK 43 Royal Tigers. With regard to the fight against unarmored targets, the rearmament on the M1 was rather a step backward, due to the less damaging effect of the fragmentation shell, and the smaller range of ammunition. The M1 gun had comparable penetration of the same types of shells with the Soviet 85-mm D-5 and ZiS-S-53, but the supply of shells with a tungsten core M93 was established earlier than the sub-caliber BR-365P.

          A very big plus of the Sherman’s armament was that its gun was equipped with a gyroscopic stabilizer operating in a vertical plane. Since the telescopic sight was paired with the gun and the periscope was synchronized with it, the gunner’s field of view also remained stable. The stabilizer’s performance did not allow aiming cannon fire on the move, but it worked as a very effective vibration damper - the target remained in the gunner’s field of view all the time, and the gap between stopping the tank and opening fire was very short. In addition, the tank could conduct targeted fire from a coaxial machine gun. On the other hand, the effective use of the stabilizer required some training of the crew, so many crews preferred to turn it off.

          The presence of a stabilizer, high quality manufacture of cannon barrels and shells, as well as good quality opticsand the tank made Sherman’s fire very accurate, which partially compensated for the insufficient power of the gun.



          with QF 17


          But the tables with the range of ammunition (at the same angle) can be compared:
          / M1A2 /
          1. postman
            0
            20 December 2012 23: 50
            Quote: Kars
            and generalized tables reduced to the same denominator didn’t come across to me.


            But the tables with the range of ammunition (at the same angle) can be compared:
            / QF 17 /
            PS share after comparing ...
            1. 0
              21 December 2012 00: 02
              Quote: Postman
              if you compare the M4 model of 1941 and M4A2 (HVSS) with a 76-mm gun

              As I understand it, the Shermans will be the next article.
              As for the 76.2 mm USA, then its advantage in armor-piercing (rather than HE explosiveness) over the Soviet 85 mm D-5T and S-53 guns has been documented.

              Regarding the tables, I mean that the counting methods are different for everyone.
              If the Germans and the USSR will experience the same gun, then the output will be different.
              1. postman
                +1
                21 December 2012 00: 34
                Quote: Kars
                If the Germans and the USSR will experience the same gun, then the output will be different.

                Let's take it. Yes
                Dap need guns (and those and those) and shells (list) throw.
                The results this time will be the same, as a citizen of Ukraine will experience.
                You can shoot there?
                Threat at us like Rzhevsky closed that something does not rattle recently.
                1. +1
                  21 December 2012 00: 45
                  Quote: Postman
                  You can shoot there?

                  We’ll sit down)
                  Quote: Postman
                  Dap need guns (and those and those) and shells (list) throw.

                  The joker however ---- will we plunder the Kubinka?

                  It’s better that you can’t find the accuracy of the large-caliber artillery, I see you find whatever you want. I used to have a website for railway guns with calculations, but then it became like a one-hour one and I didn’t get access, then I removed it from my bookmarks.
                  1. postman
                    +1
                    21 December 2012 01: 48
                    Quote: Kars
                    Better on the accuracy of large-caliber artillery that does not matter

                    "favorite" 305 mm?
                    or more?
                    1. +1
                      21 December 2012 01: 57
                      Quote: Postman
                      or more?

                      Choosing a caliber will be generally arrogance.
                      1. postman
                        +1
                        21 December 2012 02: 24
                        Such probably?
                        18 "/ 48 (45,7 cm) Mark 1
                        16 "/ 56 (40.6 cm) Mark 4
                        18 "/ 47 (45,7 cm) Mark" A "
                        In the early 1920s, USN was developing the 18 "/ 48 (45,7 cm) Mark 1 naval gun. At the time the restrictions came into effect, 1922% of the work had been completed under the 50 Treaty of the Sea.
                        They did not stop work, and muddied until 1945 (in 1927-28 and again in 1938 and in 1941)
                        18 "/ 47 (45,7 cm) Mark" A "on the left and right 16" / 50 (40.6 cm) Mark 7 (Iowa)

                        One of two 18 "(45,7 cm)" Super-Heavy "Shells on display, Indiana
                        the plaque reads "18 inches experimental projectile"
                  2. postman
                    +1
                    21 December 2012 02: 09
                    In about battleships you need to read to you:
                    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06279r.pdf
                    Dear Mr. Chairperson:
                    Before World War II, the US Navy, with the help of battleships, achieved an impressive demonstration of force and weapons and defeated its ocean enemies. From the end of World War II to the Persian Gulf War in 1991, Iowa class ships guaranteed fire support with their 16-inch guns for naval and coastal operations. Marine fire support of the surface, with ground and air forces, constituted a joint fire triad to provide support for marine landing operations. The latest class of Iowa battleship was decommissioned in 1992. In 1996, Congress became justifiably concerned about the fact that the fleet would not be able to replace Naval Surface Fire Support, comparable in performance to battleships in the twenty-first century. The request was sent to the Secretary of the Navy about the possibility of recovering at least two Iowa class battleships in the register of naval vessels, until the Secretary of the Navy confirms that there is the possibility of an equal or greater replacement than the battleships provided.


                    And the amounts are the same ($ 1,34 million)
                    //// Here is the question: where were you at that time and why are you "stirring up" now water with battleships? AND?
  10. postman
    +4
    19 December 2012 20: 19
    Question (or clarification) to the author:
    Quote: Author Oleg Kaptsov
    Deliveries from overseas were calculated as follows:

    - what died in battle is not payable. As the saying goes, what fell is missing;

    - after the war, the equipment that survived the battles had to be returned or, otherwise, redeemed.

    This interpretation of Lend-Lease applies only to technology, and is not related to raw materials (oil, kerosene), metals, chemistry, uniforms, tires and food.
    There could be no talk of any "temporary use".
    “Please give a bottle of moonshine for temporary use” / k / f "Green van" /
    The law provided for the burning of military equipment and materials, for the rest it was supposed to pay

    Food stock 4 tons
    Machinery and equipment $ 1
    Non-ferrous metals 802 tons
    Petroleum products 2 670 000 tons
    Chemical 842 tons
    Cotton 106 tons
    Leather 49 tons
    Tire 3
    Army boots 15 pairs
    Blankets 1
    Alcohol 331 066 L
    Buttons 257 723 498 pcs.
    Respectively
    Quote: Author Oleg Kaptsov
    The Soviet Union never paid for Lend-Lease in gold; we paid for the supply with the blood of our soldiers.

    Not quite right ....
    But it should be noted that the USSR paid real pennies and even under Yeltsin
    Nameplate and infa just from wiki
    1. 0
      19 December 2012 21: 11
      Quote: Postman
      This interpretation of Lend-Lease applies only to technology, and is not related to raw materials (oil, kerosene), metals, chemistry, uniforms, tires and food.
      There could be no talk of any "temporary use".
      "Please give me a bottle of moonshine for temporary use" / k / f "Green van" /
      The law provided for the burning of military equipment and materials, for the rest it was supposed to pay


      All that was destroyed, died, was spent or spent in battle was not supposed to be paid
      1. postman
        -1
        19 December 2012 22: 01
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Everything was not supposed to be paid

        Well, that is, I correctly understood:
        all that was eaten, poured into open-hearth furnaces, used in the chemical industry, should was to be paid.
      2. postman
        0
        21 December 2012 00: 00
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Everything was not supposed to be paid

        If it’s exactly like this:
        1) delivered materials: cars, various military equipment, weapons, other items destroyed, lost and used during the war, are not subject to payment;
        2) property remaining after the end of the war and suitable for civilian purposes was supposed to be paid in whole or in part on the basis of long-term loans submitted by the United States;
        3) the law provided for a possible refusal to supply materials for reasons of secrecy (primarily equipment) and the priority satisfaction of the needs of their own armed forces;
        4) the surviving military materials remain with the recipient country, but the US government reserves the right to demand them (although it was understood that the government would not use this right);
        5) equipment not completed by the end of the war, and Lend-Lease materials stored in the warehouses of US government agencies can be purchased by the countries for which they were ordered, with an American long-term loan.
        6) the delivery period under the Lend-Lease Law was initially set until June 30, 1943, and then was extended annually.


        Every state that signed a lend-lease agreement with the US government was required to provide a "financial statement."
        Speaking before the Foreign Affairs Committee of the US Senate, Treasury Secretary Morgenthau noted that "for the first time in history, one state, one government gives the other all the information that characterizes its financial situation."

        It is important to note, that countries that have agreements with USA in turn committed themselves to help protect the United States and help them with the materials they had, as well as provide various services and information.
  11. +3
    19 December 2012 20: 59
    Today I opened a new book in the book "myths about war" and this is what it turned out, So the loss of our army in the war-23 million soldiers killed !!! and another 20 miles of citizens, a crime against HUMANITY was committed in Katyn, but there was no Khatyn at all, so soldiers In the battle with the partisans, the residents were a little hooked and the rest fled, well, the losses during the atomic bombings were not as huge as they seem, since the residents allegedly left Hiroshima. I stood looking at the book and shook with hatred of the author, God forgive me Judas.
  12. kov
    kov
    0
    19 December 2012 23: 22
    Several famous British from the Second World War



  13. postman
    +1
    19 December 2012 23: 29
    Forgot (photo) Tetrach: Vickers Light Tank Mk VII, Tetrarch


    Although they were delivered then only 20 pieces (and Cromwell -6, but the photo is in the article)
    Tetrachi "landed" in Normandy on D-Day

    Combat weight 7,8 t
    Dimensions: length 4120 mm width 2310 mm height 2130 mm
    Crew 3 rights
    Armament 1 x 40 mm cannon 1 x 7,92 mm machine gun

    Ammunition 50 shells 2025 rounds
    Reservation: front of the hull 14 mm forehead of the tower 16 mm
    Engine type carburetor "Meadows"
    Maximum power 165 hp
    45 Maximum speed km / h
    Power reserve 224 km

    Here
  14. +1
    20 December 2012 12: 42
    Very interesting, for the first time I hear that the USSR was paying for the surviving equipment, and not for the entire supply of goods.
    1. 0
      20 December 2012 13: 43
      Only for surviving. And that is partly. The only full-fledged was the first tranche.
      1. postman
        +1
        20 December 2012 23: 31
        Quote: Pimply
        And that is partly. The only full-fledged was the first tranche.

        There was no full-fledged one ...

        At the 1948 talks, Soviet representatives agreed to pay a small amount and met a well-predicted refusal.

        US State Department Letter to Ambassador A.S. Panyushkin September 3, 1948:
        $ 170 million., proposed by the government of the USSR, is not considered by the US government as appropriate fair and reasonable compensation for objects of a civil type. The US government considers the amount of $ 2600 million to be the minimum estimate of the value (discounted) of civil items remaining in the USSR in September 1945.
        The amount of 1300 million dollars. The US Government offers acceptable payments to the Government of the USSR. The calculation of interest from this amount should begin on July 1, 1946 in the amount of 2% per annum and that interest calculated on July 1, 1948, should be paid every year on July 1, 1949 and July 1, 1950; and so that starting from July 1, 1951, interest and capital share should be paid in thirty equal annual installments, each of which must consist of the full amount of interest due for the year preceding July 01 of that year in which the payment is made, and from part capital debt falling for this year.
        Perhaps, due to the unpleasant economic situation that arose during the payment period, making any payment will not be in the interests of both governments, the payment may be postponed for another period according to the agreement reached. The US Government is requesting the return in good condition of items handed over to your Government by agreement of June 11, 1942, as they are "necessary for immediate use."


        It was required to return 186 vessels (landing - 15; torpedo boats -101; large and small hunters for submarines - 70). In addition, the US government offered to sell certain types of ships to the USSR government at agreed prices.

        The Soviet side did not provide the results of the inventory, and the American side considered that we had $ 2,6 billion worth of such equipment.

        The leadership of the Soviet Union considered that the calculation should not be carried out in accordance with real debt. A different formula was invented. It was based on the proportions prevailing in determining the debt of Great Britain to the United States, which was fixed in the report of the Senate Commission for the Regulation of Lend-Lease Settlements on March 22, 1946. In other words, they proceeded from the precedent created by the Anglo-American agreement.


        In April 1972, debt negotiations were resumed again, and on October 18, Washington signed an agreement at the level of trade ministers of the two countries on the settlement of Lend-Lease settlements. Under this agreement The Soviet Union pledged to pay $ 2001 million, including interest, until 722..

        By July 1973, three payments of $ 48 million were made.
        and discontinued until 1990.

        New deadlines for final repayment of debt were established - 2030. According to the statement of the then Deputy Minister of Foreign Economic Relations of the USSR Yu.N. Chumakov, the amount of funds that must be returned for deliveries under Lend-Lease, equals 674 million dollars.
        1. 0
          21 December 2012 01: 24
          "Pre-Lend-Lease" - from June 22, 1941 to September 30, 1941 - was paid in gold.
          1. postman
            0
            21 December 2012 16: 20
            Quote: Pimply
            Pre-Lend Lease

            This is what V. Pikul wrote? 5.5.tn In my opinion (if I’m not mistaken) they didn’t figure it out for what.
            HMS Edinburgh (QP-11 (28.04.1942 Murmansk - 7.05.1942 Reykjavik)

            On August 12, 1941, the first the marine Lend-Lease convoy, designated PQ-00,

            Approved March 11, 1941 - Lend-Lease

            By September 10, 1986. 24 lowering of the bell was carried out, while 29 ingots were raised in the amount of more 10 million US dollars. (At the rate of 1986 !!)
            What is this
            Quote: Pimply
            The only full-fledged was the first tranche.
            ??

            This is not a tranche or a land lease. This is a payment for excess deliveries (outside the Lend-Lease), and the amount is not impressive.
            V.S. Pikul fooled ..
            Pre- this is not a Lend-Lease
            there was no concept of "pre" in the bile.
  15. DmitriRazumov
    +2
    20 December 2012 17: 49
    Of course, Lend-Lease played a role, and without it the Red Army would have been more difficult to cope with the Wehrmacht, but we should not forget that the USSR had quite decent tank potential before the Second World War. BTs were not inferior in combat power to the main German tank of the time PanzerKampfWagen III, and T-34s, according to the genius of the German military machine Heinz Guderian, exceeded them many times. The Germans had to use 2-3 well-trained crews on the PzKfW III to deal with one thirty-four. The Wehrmacht even had tank regiments. they fought on the T-34 captured by the Germans, on which radio stations were installed and commander's towers were built on. Such cars were designated by the Germans with a large cross so that their silhouettes were not confused. Of course, in the first months of the war, as a result of the disgusting organization of defensive retreat from our side, above all, the high command, we were forced to abandon hundreds of cars to our fate. were without fuel and ammunition, so the German advantage was felt in full growth. But by the end of 1942 it had evaporated. The Germans were forced to seriously accelerate in the modernization of their models, appeared PzKfW IIII - essentially 3 with reinforced frontal and side armor and an extended gun. And in 1943, on the Kursk Bulge, we had to face PzKfW 5 (Panter) and PzKfW 6 (Tiger). It should be noted and the Germans serious approach to the training of crews. Already experienced tankers were released into the battle, having undergone many years of training at the training ground and training under field conditions. This gave the Germans an indisputable advantage in the early stages of the war, even on the worst technology. In addition, German tanks were equipped with radio stations, which greatly facilitated command in combat conditions. Ours reached radiification only by the end of 1942.
    1. 0
      21 December 2012 01: 26
      It’s difficult for tanks to shoot without gunpowder, for example.

      Lend-Lease plugged a lot of holes formed simultaneously.
      1. postman
        0
        21 December 2012 16: 28
        Quote: Pimply
        Lend-Lease plugged a lot of holes formed simultaneously.

        Another interesting approach - = arithmetic (subtracted), besides "try to shift the burden of armed struggle onto other members of the coalition."

        The number of workers that could be freed up in the USSR as a result of Lend-Lease deliveries (Americans and British worked at factories) corresponded to 200 to 486 thousand people. annually during the entire period of the war.
        1943 thousand people worked at the enterprises of the People's Commissariat of Ammunition in 329.

        By number of people released in the USSR it was possible to fully staff at least 30 rifle divisions or 7-8 combined arms armies. 5 people participated in the opening of the Second Front in Normandy on June 6-1944, 155.
        Consequently, the opening of the Second Front, which the Soviet leadership spoke about for a long time, was carried out with a number of soldiers much less than we were able to free from the national economy through supplies under Lend-Lease.
  16. postman
    +2
    20 December 2012 23: 56
    The author may be interested
    Quote: Author Oleg Kaptsov
    The Lend-Lease Bill is just an American law passed on March 11, 1941.


    US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt compared assistance to countries opposing Nazi Germany with a hose, which is best given in a fire to a neighbor, when the flame threatens to spread to your house. But the idea of ​​landlize It did not belong to him or the US government at that time.

    She originated in the US Treasury Department. in the autumn of 1940, when the legal advisers of this ministry, E. Foley and O. Cox, discovered in the archives the law of 1892, adopted under President Benjamin Harrison.

    Blowing dust off him, they read that the US Secretary of War, "when, at its discretion, it will be in the interests of the state, it may lease for a period no more than five years property of the army if the country does not need it ".

    Based on their find, Foley and Cox prepared a bill, that is, a bill on land lending, which they submitted to the US Congress in January 1941. Surprisingly quickly, the House of Representatives and the Senate approved it, and on March 11, 1941, it was signed by the president. So this bill became US law.
    ====================
    strange find?
    strange term of 5 years (1941-1945)?

    Winston Churchill 15 May 1940 years addressed to Roosevelt: "we really need a temporary provision of your 40 or 50 old destroyers in order to supplement what we have now, until the completion of the major construction, which we launched at the beginning of the war."

    Roosevelt answered the next day.

    Churchill knew that in the history of the United States there have been cases of the application of this law and the leasing of various military property from time to time. Lease (leasing) relations with motor vehicles were also used in the commercial activities of American enterprises.
  17. +2
    19 November 2013 00: 00
    I remember that on one of the talk shows one person said: "Stop appealing to the conscience of business." In terms of American Lend-Lease, this is most appropriate: the war, haha, others won, and three skins to tear off the devastated country. Well, such subtleties as gratitude or conscience, of course, do not have an exchange equivalent. For such people, and the definition of non-maternal is not invented.

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