Incredible version of the birth of the Su-25

Incredible version of the birth of the Su-25

Soviet "Zone 51"

The "newcomers" arrived at the air base in Akhtubinsk in large numbered boxes, which were carefully unloaded in one of the hangars, away from the curious eyes of the personnel of the Air Force flight test center. It was here, among the Astrakhan steppes, in a secret city that is not on geographical maps, it was decided to conduct a study of objects from another world.
20 July 1976, a special commission of the Scientific Research Institute of the Air Force under the leadership of leading engineer V.M. Chumbarova opened the first box with the "alien". They found nothing unusual inside: just a set of fuel equipment and parts of a jet engine. In the next box, there was a more curious artifact - a weighty “Pilot Instructions” (at least, local polyglots were thus determined by deciphering the characters on the first pages of the foreign folio).

The day flew by. Only when the contents of the last box were removed to the racks, tired engineers finally had a smoke break. In front of them, in the bright light of electric lamps, lay two piles of metal. Now, without having at hand any drawings, diagrams or technical descriptions, from these scattered elements, it was necessary to collect valid samples of the most complex technology. System of equations with many unknowns.

However, contrary to expectations, the difficult puzzle did not cause any problems. Soviet aviators regularly encountered these problems during the Great Patriotic War, when they had to prepare for flights (and even modernize under our conditions!) At leased speeds, often in the absence of foreign instructors, and using instructions in a foreign language . So it was this time - they assembled a brigade of the most competent people in the field of airframe design, engines, radio engineering equipment, and set about the task. Domestic "Kulibins" quickly figured out all the details, mechanisms and wiring, returning the "newcomers" to a healthy state.

There were no problems with the operation of the “aliens” either: the design of their structures was simple and concise, and the maintenance of most important components did not require even stepladders and special tools. Technicians noted a convenient location and ergonomics of service points, all the hatches necessary for prelaunch preparation were thrown open with a simple movement of the hand and did not require additional accessories, and the opening of the filling points was no more difficult than in a passenger car. However, the filling process itself did not look the best - technicians had to stand on the machine on their knees. Here is such ergonomics.

Soviet aircraft technicians were irritated by the abundance of exclamation marks and formidable warning signs that began with the words "WARNING" and "DANGER" with what seemed to be the most obvious content - the creators of the "newcomers" seemed to pay close attention to "fool protection". Before each departure from the car, it was required to remove about a dozen plugs and removable checks, protecting the “newcomer” from accidentally removing the landing gear in the parking lot or unintentionally triggering weapons. With such unprecedented security measures, you need to be a complete donkey to do something wrong when preparing for the flight.

Tigers vs. MiGs

By the end of the ground-based research cycle, an extensive flight test program was already prepared, and the foreign test equipment was entrusted to the leading test pilots of the Air Force Scientific Research Institute, Heroes of the Soviet Union N.I. Stogovu, V.N. Kondaurovu and A.S. Beige.

On the keel of the tactical fighter F-5E "Tiger II" drew big red stars (and then!), Replaced the instrument scales on the dashboard with American miles and feet with our usual meters and now, finally, on a cold December morning 1976, the American trophy the plane rolled out onto the runway of the Akhtuba Flight Test Center.

The honored test pilot of the USSR, Hero of the Soviet Union, Colonel Vladimir Nikolaevich Kandaurov recalls:

... I knew that every company has "raisins" in its products. Compared with the serial domestic fighters, "Tiger" had brakes on the pedals, which we used only on heavy machines. The cabin was not littered with unnecessary in-flight switches and gas stations (circuit breaker). They are all in the same "store" on the horizontal console, outside the work area. F-5 is not the most modern model and its characteristics are inferior to the MiG-21. Nevertheless, I liked the layout of the cabin and a great overview of it. High-quality instrument panel, illuminated instrument glass did not give glare in any light, and the AN / ASQ-29 small collimator sight was approximately 2 times smaller than domestic analogs.

Decided to run on a second, longer runway. "The stock pocket does not pull," I thought, taxiing to the strip. Of course, what to hide, I was proud that this unique copy in the USSR was entrusted to me.
He turned on the front desk uplift - he earned an electro-hydraulic lift and the nose of the plane "climbed" up. “Wow, how!” I shook my head in surprise. “Couldn't you have done this without such a baby?” In my opinion, not the most common method to reduce the length of the run. We used this aircraft only VMMyasishchev M-3 and M-4 - heavy long-range bombers.

From the very first seconds of the takeoff, the pilot realized that an increase in the angle of attack on the takeoff was not a luxury, but a necessity. The frail engines of the Tiger reluctantly dispersed the car: the F-5E was equipped with two General Electric turbojets with a 15 kN each. For comparison, the TRG MiG-21bis reached 70 kN in the unformed mode. As a result, even with a snuffed nose, the Tiger needed a strip of 900 meters in length for the run. A lot for such a small plane.

Alas, the first test run almost ended in disaster - the chassis of the American fighter was horrified by the quality of the Russian “concrete”, and the large gaps between the plates finally damaged the front support. The takeoff run was urgently interrupted, and only the skill of the pilot allowed to avoid serious damage.

F-5E "Tiger II" (7300807 serial number, manufactured by 02.06.74 in Palmdale, California)

After a short-term repair, the F-5E returned to service, this time to conduct training aerial battles with its peer, the front-line fighter MiG-21bis. The most exciting part of the test program began.
On paper, the MiG was almost X times longer than the “Tiger” in terms of thrust-to-weight ratio, speed (about 2М against 2М), rate of climb (1,6 m / s against 225 m / s) and in all other dynamic characteristics. The best test pilots were sitting at the wheel of the cars, one and all Heroes of the Soviet Union. Equal conditions for the start of the battle, in tanks the optimum amount of fuel, telemetry systems are included. Take off!

18 battles were conducted by the Soviet aces, and not once MiG-21bis could not enter the tail of the F-5E. The devil was hiding in the details: a smaller unit load on the wing, developed nodules in the root of the wings, slotted flaps and advanced slats - all this gave the F-5E advantage in close combat. The “American” was also helped by its original “shark” nose, equipped with vihregenerators - such a design significantly increased the stability of the “Tiger” at low speeds, making it possible to conduct a maneuverable air battle at critical angles of attack.

Automatic gun "Pontiac" M39

The armament of the small fighter was also initially “sharpened” for maneuverable battles - two built-in automatic guns of the 20 caliber mm with 280 ammunition for shells per barrel. All this, coupled with an excellent view from the cockpit, made the "Tiger" an extremely dangerous enemy in melee.
Experienced experts also noted the great vitality of the F-5E, thanks to its twin-engine layout and the lack of wing fuel tanks - the plane could return from a job with riddled planes.

It is fair to note that in the event of a real combat collision of the MiG-21bis and F-5E, the American fighter did not expect anything good. The Soviet machine could have triumphed when the air battle was tied up - thanks to its more powerful Sapphire radar, the MiG could detect the enemy earlier and take an advantageous position for an unexpected attack. The high fighter-weight ratio of the Soviet fighter gave him a chance to get out of the battle, if suddenly the situation takes a turn that is unfavorable and dangerous for him.
According to test pilot Vladimir Kondaurov, the American Tiger’s maneuverability was completely lost at speeds above 800 km / h, although in this case, the turn radii became so large that the pilots lost visual contact with each other and the air battle stopped .

And yet, the results looked clearly disappointing. The arrival of the aircraft manufacturers commission was also at a loss - to bring such reports to Moscow means to get big problems on my head. There was nothing left to do but put up against the F-5E the more modern MiG-23. The conditions of the battle were initially unequal, and, the results of the air battle were quite predictable. "Twenty-third" could not get involved in the near maneuver combat, because he was armed with a medium-range air-to-air missile P-23. MiG-23 could easily shoot the "Tiger" from the distance 40 km. At the same time, in the closest air combat, the large MiG-23 was inferior in maneuverability even to the MiG-21: the nimble "Tiger" curled with impunity around his opponent.

The tests were completed on this - the aircraft were transferred to Moscow at the Chkalovsk airfield, where a presentation was held for the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force, P.S. Kutakhov. As expected, the reaction was similar to a deafening thunderclap. The captured American cars have never been lifted into the air since then, and in the recommendations for conducting air battles a point was added in which it was advised not to engage the F-5E "Tiger II" in close combat, preferring more advantageous "hit-run-off" tactics. .

Fighter for export

The tactical fighter F-5 is a special American development for arming its allies. The specific purpose determined the appearance of the car: unlike expensive, radio-saturated and difficult-to-operate US Air Force aircraft, in 1959 the Northrop company created a lightweight fighter that was as cheap as possible and adapted for local conflicts. Potential customers were not interested in high-tech equipment, on the contrary, reliability, low operating cost, ease of piloting and machine versatility were at the forefront.

The fighter with the saying name "Freedom Fighter" (Freedom Fighter) confidently pressed its rival - the "flying coffin" F-104, which the Americans were trying to attach somewhere, just to get rid of the obviously unsuccessful machine. F-5 entered service with 30 countries of the world, and in many of them it is still in use.

Despite the “export” status of these machines, the US Air Force ordered a small batch of these aircraft during the Vietnam War, an F-5C modification (included the installation of “advanced” electronics, an air refueling system and 90 kg of armor). In Vietnam, the heavy name "Freedom Fire" somehow changed by itself to a more resonant "Tiger" (Tiger).

In 1972, a new modification of the F-5E "Tiger II" appeared, radically different from the base F-5. More powerful and high-torque engines were installed, a primitive radar appeared. The aircraft of this type from the Air Force of South Vietnam hit Akhtubinsk in 1976 year.

T-38 Talon

F-5 left its mark on another field - on the basis of its design the T-38 “Talon” aircraft was created, which has been the main training and training machine of the NATO countries for 50 for years.
Well, on the basis of its characteristics, the F-5 Tiger / Freedom Fighter is one of the best fighters of the Cold War, which has been undeservedly forgotten in the shadow of its clumsy F-4 fellow Phantom.


The attentive reader probably noticed that initially there was a conversation about two "aliens" - two trophies that we got for detailed study after the end of the Vietnam War. Where did the second "alien" go? What was this plane?

The second was the light attack jet attacker A-37 "Dragonfly". At first, the unpretentious flattened car did not cause any positive emotions among domestic specialists: some sort of nonsense for a war with the natives and the performance characteristics to match: max. 800 km / h speed, 2 crew of a person (why not alone?), combat load: built-in 6 two-barreled machine gun in the forward part of the machine, up to 2,5 tons of bombs and tanks with napalm on underwing pylons (almost as much as weighed himself "Dragonfly").

However, even in this primitive plane, the Soviet military experts managed to find quite a few “surprises”: first of all, a fully armored cabin, reliably protecting the crew from small arms bullets. Return of the legendary attack aircraft IL-2?
One of the participants in the tests jokingly recalled how long he had been searching for a "multi-kilogram cabinet" of an 20-channel VHF radio station in the "Dragonfly" booth, which, as it turned out, was a unit that fits in the palm of his hand. The curious eye of specialists quickly identified the most curious moments of the American machine: for example, our aircraft technicians really liked the method of connecting the wires by “crimping” without a soldering iron, which greatly simplified the maintenance of the aircraft in front-line conditions.

The results

After extensive tests in the interests of the Air Force, both captured aircraft were transferred to the Sukhoi Design Bureau, where at that time the aircraft was being designed to support the troops directly - the T-8 product (the future Su-25 Grach). A close acquaintance with foreign technologies was most welcome: a control system for the Su-25 attack plane was designed on the basis of successful servo compensators of the Dragonfly attack aircraft. Also, from the American "Dragonfly" Su-25 inherited a rational booking scheme and an effective filler tanks based on polyurethane foam with a cellular structure. Not less interesting results were given by the study of the tactical fighter F-5E “Tiger II”, on the basis of which the wing “Rook” with developed mechanization was designed.

The moral of this stories is this: as has been said more than once, the devil is in the details. Especially in such a knowledge-intensive industry as aircraft. Here, too, the quality of the performance and the imperceptible details of the ordinary eye, on which, ultimately, the outcome of the air battle depends, plays a big role.

As for the beneficial influence of “overseas technology” on the creation of the Sukhoi Design Bureau aircraft and eternal moral and ethical questions about copying technical solutions: “Do we have a right?”, “How are we different from China then?”, Here, it seems to me, the answer is simple - This is normal world practice. Any technique is always created with an eye to foreign analogues. Moreover, if in the samples that fell into our hands aviation Since there were really innovative and useful ideas in technology, there was no reason to neglect foreign experience (obtained, by the way, not by our blood in the jungle of Vietnam).

During the Cold War, the United States was able to obtain, for detailed acquaintance, the entire spectrum of Soviet aviation technology, relatively speaking, from the MiG-15 to the MiG-25. It is indisputable that each sample was carefully studied with great prejudice and, for sure, foreign experts discovered many new and interesting things for themselves.
Well, we were lucky only once.

The story about the amazing events that occurred in Akhtubinsk in 1976 year, written on the basis of the facts from the book VN Kondaurova "The runway of a long life"

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  1. +11
    14 December 2012 10: 08
    Well, about the birth of the Su-25 from two aliens, of course, an exaggeration. And it’s so very interesting, I didn’t think that such a small airplane, there are so many surprises.
    1. vyatom
      14 December 2012 12: 10
      As far as I know, our industrial intelligence completely stole the blueprints of the American F-18 Hornet. And the Pentagon was very indignant at this fact.
      1. 7778
        14 December 2012 12: 35
        The Americans didn’t even have to steal))) they just bought two SU-27s with documentation))
        1. 0
          15 December 2012 11: 46
          interesting, f-15 got ours at the disposal or not
      2. 0
        16 December 2012 07: 34
        vyatom (2- our industrial intelligence soldier drinks fool
    2. VAF
      14 December 2012 14: 40
      Quote: Wedmak
      Well, about the birth of the Su-25 from two aliens, of course, an exaggeration.

      To the author of RESPECT ..... slowly opening of the "veil" begins bully + !? wink

      Denis ... no exaggeration ... everything as it is ... good and it was!

      There are two comments on the author:

      1. The LE manual for the F-5 is not a heavy book, but a thin book with minimal text and large drawings and photographs, very similar to our ABCs and Primer ... I'm quite serious!

      2. That's what they dragged in vain, it's brakes recourse when retraining from the Su-17-x and MiG-27K (MiG-23 B, BN), so many planes "took off" on landing. practically sat on the braked wheels!

      The most "indicative" case was in ... well, in short, in the Odessa Military District, when landing, all 23 Su-25s were ... "barefoot"! bully
    3. black_eagle
      14 December 2012 14: 47
      The new aircraft is a serious work of foreign intelligence services. each machine is designed to solve a certain range of problems in certain conditions, so I doubt very much that foreign models were copied blindly, take two opponents A-10 and Su-25, the tasks are the same, but the layout is completely different, but the planes have the same wing mechanization, as I will say more, the F-22 has a wing like the IL-2 !!!!!!! so it's amers slamzili))))))))
  2. +4
    14 December 2012 10: 46
    Very interesting, original article ...
    1. +1
      15 December 2012 12: 50
      Live and learn! And learning is never ashamed, but very useful.
  3. Brother Sarych
    14 December 2012 11: 14
    The article is interesting in terms of testing imported aircraft, but in the main message - "an attempt to pull an owl on the globe", as one of the commentators put it elsewhere ...
    "Work on the creation of the Su-25 attack aircraft began at the PO Sukhoi Design Bureau in the mid-70s, when it became clear that the decision taken in 1956 to abolish the attack aircraft and transfer its functions to fighter-bombers was erroneous. research and development work was carried out on 40 topics, about 600 samples and models were manufactured and tested. February 1975 The prototype of the attack aircraft, which had the working designation T-8, was taken into the air, and in 1980 the attack aircraft was adopted by the USSR Air Force under the designation Su-25. In 1981, a Su-25 squadron in the amount of 12 aircraft already took part in hostilities in Afghanistan. "
    And there is no sin in using successful solutions - no one will argue with this ...
    Maybe only epplovtsy wink
  4. +4
    14 December 2012 11: 21
    AUTHOR'S QUOTE "... But, and we were lucky only once"

    Except for 11 pieces of V-2, and 4 pieces of B-29!
    But in general, the article is interesting. Thanks to the author!
    1. +1
      15 December 2012 08: 51
      To this list you can still add an unexploded missile stuck in a Chinese plane.
      1. 0
        15 December 2012 17: 51
        And Powers U-2, don't you need to add.
  5. +4
    14 December 2012 11: 31
    The article is informative. +
    In both photos, not Su-25, but Su-39
  6. MilaPhone
    14 December 2012 11: 39
    Northop f-5, although it participated in many conflicts, was not used as a fighter in any of them, but it proved to be a good percussion force. The aircraft had excellent maneuverability and rarely got into a tailspin. Thanks to this, aerobatic teams were created in many countries.

    Swiss aerobatic team Patrouille de Suisse
    1. 7778
      14 December 2012 12: 48
      it seems to me or is it a brake hook?
      1. +3
        14 December 2012 15: 22
        Quote: 7778
        it seems to me or is it a brake hook?

        The brake hook was mounted on the F-5 to simplify basing in the field.
    2. +3
      14 December 2012 13: 01
      And also, if I'm not mistaken, this plane (or its model) was filmed in the movie Hot Heads as a “Russian MiG”. smile
      1. +3
        14 December 2012 15: 11
        Starred. And not a layout. And not Russian, but like Iraqi)))
        1. +1
          14 December 2012 15: 18
          Ah ... I need to urgently review the film. smile
      2. +3
        14 December 2012 15: 33
        Quote: Wedmak
        And also, if I'm not mistaken, this plane (or its model) was filmed in the movie Hot Heads as a "Russian MiG"

        He not only starred in the film, but also always imitated Soviet aircraft in the exercises of the US Air Force, the "Aggressor" squadron (pictured - 1983
        1. +1
          14 December 2012 15: 48
          Yes, one of the few American aircraft that can be called beautiful.
          1. +1
            14 December 2012 15: 57
            Quote: Wedmak
            one of the few American aircraft that can be called beautiful.

            In my opinion, a freak from 60's

            Only three cars were graceful at the Jankers: the B-29, the multi-purpose F-16 and (pictured) the percussion F-15Е. However, bombers have always been distinguished by the nobility of the lines.
            1. +1
              14 December 2012 16: 12
              The taste and color markers are different. smile As for the American aircraft, here is my modest rating of prettiness:
              1. R-39 "Airacobra" (the first one because I started to learn the world of aviation with it)
              2. F / A-18 "Hornet" (interesting layout, deck boat)
              3. SR-71 Blackbird (generally fantastic aircraft)
              4. F-5 slim, lightweight, almost a model))
              5. With a stretch of F-14 for the variable geometry of the wing and the shape of the inflated, muscular fighter.

              Ours of course, out of competition!
              1. +2
                14 December 2012 16: 55
                Quote: Wedmak
                As for the American aircraft

                Here is the undisputed winner
                1. +9
                  14 December 2012 17: 01
                  Yes uzhzhzhzhzhzh ... flying iron! And I want to straighten with a shovel so that at least a little like an airplane.
              2. Fox
                15 December 2012 15: 51
                But what about light ?!
  7. +2
    14 December 2012 11: 43
    Exchange of experience with Zaokensky colleagues))) If seriously, not to mention the Su-25, but in general about the situation, borrowing and co-copying other people's results is a normal thing.
  8. Brother Sarych
    14 December 2012 11: 52
    By the way, I remembered one anecdotal case I had read about the skill of our mechanics - according to the Lend-Lease, an extra box with a plane without documents was received, ours sat and assembled the plane, even tested it, but only then it became clear why there were no documents! It turns out that there was a set of spare parts for one batch of supplied aircraft, which were stuck during shipment, from which our "extra" aircraft was assembled ...
    I didn’t invent it myself, I read it on one site ...
    1. +1
      14 December 2012 13: 01
      There was such an anecdote - they bought a fighter, got it in analysis, assembled it - it turned out a steam locomotive, the plant engineer showed in the instructions "after assembly, slightly file with a file")))
    2. 0
      14 December 2012 13: 50
      I also read this, in my opinion, on the same site. It's just that in the states the plane was stupidly disassembled and sent in a "parcel". What instructions are needed for the parts?
    3. +1
      17 December 2012 10: 12
      This is called a group spare parts kit :)
  9. +3
    14 December 2012 12: 01
    During the Korean War, Amer. scattered leaflets in which they promised a big reward for a hijacked plane. One Korean traitor was found (his relatives lived in South Korea). In Vietnam, they also scattered leaflets, but there were no traitors among the Vietnamese.

    "We were lucky only once" - during his studies at the school in 86. We were shown a film about the Vietnam War, the chronicle showed several captured F-5s and Iroquois (UH-1).
    1. 0
      14 December 2012 15: 17
      As for aircraft, it was rarely lucky, but an enemy missile (it seems short-range air-to-air) was brought directly to the wing once ..... smile
    2. +3
      14 December 2012 15: 19
      Quote: Forest
      We were lucky only once "- while studying at the school in 86. We were shown a film about the Vietnam War, several captured F-5s and Iroquois (UH-1) were shown in the chronicle.

      At the end of 1958, a MiG-17 was delivered to the USSR from China with an unexploded Sidewinder air-to-air missile fired by a Taiwan Air Force fighter stuck in the fuselage. On its basis, the Soviet melee missile R-3 (R-13) was developed.

      It is reliably known that in addition to the F-5 and Dragonfly and Iroquois, a Phantom engine and parts of the F-111 cab were brought from Vietnam.

      Surely there was a close acquaintance with the F-117 from Yugoslavia. In the same place, in 1999. NATO has lost a couple of large Predator drones. One (pictured) was found in good condition and exhibited at the Belgrade Aviation Museum (our specialists had access to modern UAV technologies 14 years ago)
      1. 0
        15 December 2012 13: 23
        our specialists had access to modern UAV technology as far back as 14 years ago

        just not to technology, and for the samples - the difference is colossal.
        1. Denzel13
          15 December 2012 14: 17
          Oh, "professor" - don't forget to minus me. Flattered by the attention, catch an adequate answer.
      2. 0
        15 December 2012 14: 33
        If only the UAVs could be taken from the Iranians, or the Chinese have already stolen ...
  10. AK-47
    14 December 2012 12: 05
    The cabin was not clogged with unnecessary in-flight switches and gas stations

    How is it in Soviet.
    18 fights were carried out by Soviet aces, and never MiG-21bis could not get into the tail of the F-5E

    Amazingly, maybe they were not aces.
    ... in close air combat, the large MiG-23 was inferior in terms of maneuverability even to the MiG-21: the brisk Tiger curled around its enemy with impunity.

    Is all this a revelation where the intelligence looked.
    In the recommendations for conducting air battles, a clause was added in which it was advised not to engage in close combat with the F-5E Tiger II, preferring the more advantageous hit-and-run tactics.

    A depressing discovery. It was believed that our planes were the fastest, most maneuverable, the most, the most, and then some insect wiped its nose.
    I wonder if such surprises exist at this time.
    1. 0
      14 December 2012 13: 52
      In Vietnam, with "Phantoms" and MiGs, the Amerov pilots had the same memo.
    2. +4
      14 December 2012 15: 42
      I-15/16 were more maneuverable than Messers, did they wipe their nose? Anyone who in an air battle has an advantage in speed and climb he dances a girl, the opposite side can only pray to God and dodge attacks. However, now all this is no longer relevant since 90% depends on the electronics, and the aircraft is essentially just a means of delivering weapons and target detection, maneuverability is needed only to dodge anti-aircraft missiles.
      1. +1
        14 December 2012 15: 57
        Well, I would argue with you. I-16 wiped their nose on the first bf-109 models (the messer had an advantage in vertical maneuver, and donkeys in horizontal). But after the release of new models of the latter, they simply did not keep up with them. Therefore, as a matter of urgency, they began to create all new modifications of LAGG, Yak. But there was a difference, each fighter was laid out in full only at the optimum height for him. It’s now that 2000 m, that 3000 m, the difference is not great, but then it was significant.
        1. 0
          10 January 2013 14: 03
          The very logic of air combat of those times suggests that a faster and faster aircraft will have an advantage due to the fact that it can impose its will on the enemy. A horizontal maneuver is good for defense and only if the enemy wants to take the battle horizontally, but he does not want to, because it is much more profitable to fly up, hit and run away horizontally or high.
      2. +1
        14 December 2012 16: 59
        Quote: Midshipman
        Anyone in aerial combat has an advantage in speed and climb

        climbing is a very vague concept

        usually in battles they try to use dynamic modes, in this case any La-5 could gain altitude like, for example, a jet MiG-15. Simply simpler: who has more horizontal speed, who managed to turn on the afterburner earlier or has an excess in height - that will have an advantage in rate of climb
        1. 0
          10 January 2013 13: 55
          The battle on the vertical under equal initial conditions is won due to the static (I will call it that) climb.
      3. Denzel13
        14 December 2012 22: 22
        Quote: Midshipman
        I-15/16 were more maneuverable than Messers, did they wipe their nose?

        Very controversial statement. The first versions of the Bf-109 didn’t have an advantage over the latest versions of the I-16.
        Read VF Golubev, he planned a demonstration battle with German "hunters" over his airfield, pretending to be hit. The result is 2-0 in favor of Golubev on the I-16 against the Bf-109F (and knocked down "experts") + convinced personnel of the regiment that it is quite possible to blame the Germans on the "donkey".
        1. 0
          10 January 2013 14: 14
          Donkey and Messer are such a "Christomatic" example and it is not the plane that wins, but the "pad" (pilots forgive me), but the will of the enemy will be imposed by a faster and faster climb.
  11. +2
    14 December 2012 12: 09
    I think yes, that they are.
  12. +2
    14 December 2012 15: 21
    Thank you so much for the article, I have not met this information before, very informative.
  13. +1
    14 December 2012 15: 50
    I also wanted to pay attention to this point: Is a combat training aircraft possible?

    Over the 50 years of operation of the T-38 Talon training aircraft (based on the F-5 fighter), NATO has never used it in combat, although it would seem that Talon - the very thing for local wars - is simple, cheap, and even supersonic ( 1,3М), maneuverable and equipped with a modern flight and navigation system.

    In my opinion, the reason is that the training aircraft is not capable of performing combat missions. Even modern combat aircraft are often unable to detect and effectively hit point targets. What then to expect from a training machine without a radar (EMNIP on Telon does not have it), without armor protection and with a trimmed weapon complex ?!

    An attempt to attack a group of militants in the mountains of Chechnya will end tragically - the spirits never had a shortage of MANPADS or DShKs (according to 84 statistics,% of our aviation losses in Afghanistan came from small arms fire, and not from the advertised Stinger.)

    The most that "combat" aircraft are capable of is the shooting of unarmed demonstrations.


    Talon's Cabin
  14. Nechai
    14 December 2012 16: 40
    Quote: askort154
    Except for 11 pieces of V-2, and 4 pieces of B-29!

    Americans from gansiks got kostruktors, production facilities and an ALL set of both serial and experimental aircraft and rocket technology. Just in case ...
    It is authentically known that from Vietnam

    KABs, air-to-ground missiles with guidance on laser target illumination.
    1. -2
      14 December 2012 17: 03
      Quote: Nechai
      Americans from gansiks got kostruktors, production facilities and an ALL set of both serial and experimental aircraft and rocket technology.

      The American aircraft industry hardly needed German crafts. Amers already had B-29 level cars flying by that time, an anti-loading suit was developed, radar sights for bombing, in 1945 P-80 Shutingstar appeared - this machine did not stand close to the level with the jet Messer. The next year, a jet B-45 Tornado flew (50 tons take-off weight, for comparison, the super-duper German Arado-234 had a maximum take-off weight of about 10 tons)

      The only area where the Germans really overtook the whole world is rocket technology. And the great achievements of the Reich in jet aviation are the same myth as the base in Antarctica
      1. +2
        16 December 2012 06: 23
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        in 1945 the R-80 Shutingstar appeared - this machine did not stand close to the level of the jet Messer.

        What tells me that you are in world of warplanes are playing.
        In October 1938, on the instructions of the Reich Ministry of Aviation, Messerschmitt began designing an experimental aircraft for flight tests of BMW P3302 turbojet engines with a thrust of 600 kg. BMW undertook to deliver these engines by the end of 1939. The aircraft was designated P-1065. In mid-November 1941, the Messerschmitt factory finally received BMW-003 engines suitable for installation, and four months later, on March 25, 1942, upon completion of the static tests, Me.262 made its first flight with them. In total, during the war, 1930 was released (according to other sources - 1933) Me.262 of various modifications, but this number also includes 611 issued, but damaged or destroyed before arriving in the part of aircraft; 114 of them were restored. Thus, 1488 vehicles were adopted.
        And at the same time:
        Work on the prototype p-80 began in July 1943, when the United States received from England the latest Havilland H-1 turbojet engine (Havilland H-1). The aircraft was completed 143 days after the start of work and made its first flight on January 9, 1944. In April 1945, two aircraft were sent to England, where they became part of the 8th Air Army, and two more arrived in Italy, but none of them took an active part in the hostilities in Europe. The first production F-80s entered the U.S. Air Force at the end of 1945 in the 412th fighter group, which was soon renamed the 1st Fighter Group and included the 27th, 71st and 94th fighter squadrons. July 12, 1948 16 Lockheed F-80A were sent to strengthen the European group, as a result of the blockade by Soviet troops in West Berlin.
        Arado-234.For the first time in combat conditions, the aircraft was used on August 2, 1944. A reconnaissance manned by Lieutenant Erich Sommer took a photograph of the entire enemy landing area in Normandy in 1,5 hours. The Luftwaffe has been used since November 1944 as a scout, and since December 1944 it attacked the Allied forces.
        Despite the fact that at the end of the war due to lack of fuel the aircraft was used occasionally, it remained a very difficult target to intercept due to its high speed. In the last months of the war, Ar 234 were the only reconnaissance aircraft capable of operating in conditions of total superiority of the enemy in the air, including over the territory of Great Britain.
        1. 0
          16 December 2012 06: 24
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          The next year, the jet B-45 Tornado flew
          that is, in 1946 year? But...
          In September 1948, the first prototype, piloted by D. Krebs and N. Piccard, took off for testing new J47-GE7 engines
          The first serial modification of Tornado was the B-45A-1. Due to the lack of J47 engines, which were installed only on B-47 and F-86 aircraft, less powerful J1-A-35 or J9-A-35 engines with a thrust of up to 11 kg were installed on the A-2000 series machines. The first serial B-45A-1 (serial number 47-001) at the beginning of 1948 flew to the Murok air base, where it embarked on test flights in conjunction with the experimental KhV-45. Until the end of the year, 22 Tornado aircraft left the assembly line. But their transfer to the combat units of the Air Force was delayed. The reason was the lack of funds from the US military. The US Congress did not allocate enough money for the new fiscal year (1948-1949), and many military programs were frozen or curtailed. All released B-45 canned. Only in April 1949, the aviation command was able to begin to equip the 47th light bomber wing with these aircraft - the 47th th Bomber Wing (Light), based at Barksdale airbase.
          You compare the technique of different eras.
          1. -3
            16 December 2012 20: 21
            Quote: Aleksys2
            that is, in 1946 year? But...

            In the 1945 year, work on the aircraft project was carried out at an accelerated pace, design teams worked on 12-14 hours a day. However, with the end of the war in Europe, work was somewhat slowed down. Only on 2 of August 1946 of the year the US Air Force announced the adoption of the B-45 Tornado for service and ordered a series from 96 vehicles The first prototype bomber with the serial number 45-59479 was prepared for testing at the beginning of the 1947 year. In an unassembled form, the XB-45 was transported to the Murok air base, where all the first tests were carried out in the classified part of the test complex eaktivnye planes seventeenth of March 1947, the test pilots and D.Krebs P.Brever raised plane in the air

            The 50-ton strategic B-45 Tornado is ridiculous to compare with the German crafts Arado234. The B-45 bomber carried more bombs than the "bomber" Arado weighed.

            Quote: Aleksys2
            You compare the technique of different eras.

            What to do if this new era has come too quickly. After 2-3 years, the air forces of developed countries forgot about German crafts and flew in cars of a completely different generation. And the "gansik technologies" remained in museums.
            1. 0
              17 December 2012 04: 57
              Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
              What to do if this new era has come too fast.

              Do not compare them.
              1. 0
                17 December 2012 14: 21
                Quote: Aleksys2
                Do not compare them.

                Actually, I’m talking about the same thing.

                But many of the local inhabitants constantly hint that the allies got the "super-technology of the Gansiks", and before that the Amers and Britons did not know how to make planes. They knew how. And already in 2-3 years they flew in new generation cars, without any help from "gansik".
        2. -3
          16 December 2012 20: 10
          Quote: Aleksys2
          On 25 on March 1942, after the completion of the static tests, Me.262 made its first flight with them. In total, during the war, 1930 (according to other sources - 1933) Me.262 of various modifications was issued, however, this number also included 611 issued, but damaged or destroyed before arriving at part of the aircraft; 114 of them have been restored. Thus, 1488 vehicles were adopted.

          No matter how you try to paint the great achievements of the fascist Caudla, the first combat sortie of the British jet fighter "Gloucester Meteor" (pictured) stood on the same day as Me.262, in the summer of 1944. Unlike the German wunderwafle, the Meteor was much more reliable and had higher performance characteristics, therefore it was massively used all over the world until the end of the 50s (Korea, the Middle East, etc.)

          Quote: Aleksys2
          Work on the prototype p-80 began in July of the 1943, when the United States received from England the latest Hevilland H-1 turbojet engine (Havilland H-1). The aircraft was completed in 143 days after the start of work and made its first flight on January 9 1944 of the year

          The F-80 was much more advanced than the Me.262, primarily due to its more reliable engines. All the rest of the equipment, the construction of the sights, avionics did not stand close with the German wunderwafer

          About piston aircraft: "Messerschmitt-109" or "Fokkevulf190" is useless to compare with the P51 "Mustang", the heavy fighter-bomber P47 "Thunderbolt" or the carrier-based "Corsair" - German cars were rather uncompetitive.

          The Germans had neither B-17, nor B-29, nor carrier-based aircraft
          1. 0
            17 December 2012 04: 54
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            No matter how you try to describe the great achievements of the fascist Caudla, the first combat sortie of the British jet fighter "Gloucester Meteor" (pictured) was on the same day with the Me.262, in the summer of 1944.

            Oh really?
            The first sorties took place on July 27, 1944, and soon the Meteors intercepted and shot down 2 Fau-1 aircraft-shells (a total of 14 such vehicles were shot down). Then part (the 616th squadron) was removed from combat duty and, using new machines, tactics were developed to counter the attacks of German jet fighters on the construction of bombers.
            In early October 1944, an order was received by the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, Hermann Goering, on the formation of a fighter unit of forty Me.262 aircraft. Her commander was appointed one of the best German aces Walter Nowotny. Already on October 4, the first combat flight of four fighters took place, moreover, three of them in this flight were shot down above the airfield and during the approach.
            Teach materiel.
            1. 0
              17 December 2012 14: 24
              Quote: Aleksys2
              Oh really?

              On July 25, 1944, the Mosquito, under the control of Flight Lieutenant Ball, was flying at an altitude of 9000 m near Munich, when an observer warned the pilot about a twin-engined aircraft rapidly approaching from the tail side. This was unexpected, since the Mosquito, when flying at high altitude, practically did not encounter any opposition. Ball immediately gave full throttle, but the enemy plane - it was already clear that it was Me 262, bypassed the Mosquito and turned to attack. After a sharp bend, the Me 262 was in 2000 m behind the Mosquito in a minute and was rapidly approaching again. From 700 meters the pilot of the Messerschmitt opened fire, but Ball left with a quick turn to the left, and then turned on the Me 262, forcing him to turn away. This maneuver was repeated four times. At the same time, the German never managed to get into the Mosquito. After the fifth call, Me 262 dived and from 700 m tried to attack the Mosquito from below, but Ball again managed to escape from the fire. However, the Englishman liked the situation less and less, and he dived into cumulus clouds. After three to four minutes of flying in the clouds, Me 262 disappeared from sight.
              It is interesting to note that two days later, on July 27, 616 Squadron entered service with the first Gloucester Meteor jet fighter and made its first combat mission to intercept the Fi-103 Fieseler missile. The British Fighter Command was initially preparing the 616th Squadron for high-altitude air battles and planned the combat debut of the British jet fighter two or three months later, but the situation forced them to immediately throw them to intercept Fi 103.

              Wow, it turns out that Me.262 was two days ahead of the Britons! True Gloucester-Meteor flew faster and operated on 15 for years longer, but who cares ... the main thing is that the fascists are the first!
  15. aviator46
    14 December 2012 16: 53
    He worked at Sukhoi, at a motor test station, in the 70s ...
    In my opinion, everything that the Americans flew in Vietnam / except b-59))) /,
    visited Sukhoi on Running))
  16. +3
    15 December 2012 13: 22
    Great article. Here are just the author, as it were, not very comfortable for the fact that we "lambasted" other people's technical achievements. Do not be ashamed of this! We need to be proud of this - we know how, we can! "Steaming in your own juice" is the lot of the stupid and short-sighted.
  17. mr.poops
    15 December 2012 13: 49
    in general, in my opinion, it would be foolish if the designers did not adopt interesting technical ideas from each other (another question is how this happens). On a citizen, patents are responsible for exclusivity, and in the army, intelligence and counterintelligence)))
  18. maxiv1979
    15 December 2012 15: 41
    a good attack aircraft, the most important thing is the reviews of soldiers, in the war they love him and pilots piloting, everything else is demeogy
  19. -1
    15 December 2012 16: 34
    Yes, the author is right, the devil is in the details.
    There is such a bearded anecdote:
    bought (someone) our combat fighter. How not to collect - it turns out the engine. Claimed a complaint. Ours arrived and pointed to the point at the end of the instruction in small print: after assembly, finalize with a file.
    So we are finalizing.
  20. Alexsasha77
    15 December 2012 18: 11
    SU-25 is one of the best aircraft in the world. Love him!
  21. xzWhiteWolf
    16 December 2012 00: 34
    The most beautiful American plane - padded.
    On the topic, the author wrote absolutely correctly that work had been going on for a long time. These trophies (if any) could give us some of the technology that Americans were a little better at.
  22. Cornflower
    16 December 2012 01: 28
    Whatever we say about amerovskoy aviation and no matter how we spread rot, but it must be admitted, they have highly qualified engineers, one F-15 with mods is worth something. Do not minus, I call for a sober assessment of our capabilities. As a pancake, it doesn’t hurt to talk about it, but for now we are in "catching up". Sorry for the pancake.
  23. +1
    16 December 2012 21: 48

    Not quite, but still a similar situation, but on the other hand.

    On 12 of August 1968, two miracles of the Israeli Air Force were raised to intercept a pair of Syrian MiG-17. Two pilots, Lieutenant Walid Adham and Lieutenant Radfan Rifai, made a training flight and made serious mistakes in navigation. They used 1945 cards of the year of manufacture and made a mistake in the direction of flight. A pair of MiGs landed at the Betzat Israeli airfield in western Galilee, and even after landing, the pilots were convinced that they had landed in Lebanese territory. Only when their planes rolled out of the short runway and the locals began to gather around them, only then did the two Syrian pilots realize what mistake they made. They were held in prison for almost two years and exchanged for Israeli prisoners of war.

    To raise both planes to the sky as quickly as possible, a special group of technicians was created in the Air Force. Dani Shapiro - test pilot and Ehud Hankin - Mirage pilot were the first to fly Syrian MiGs into the air.

    "The MiG-17 turned out to be an aircraft with amazing maneuverability," recalls Dani Shapiro, "It was much more maneuverable than any aircraft in service with us, including the Mirage. But all this was true only up to a speed of 350 knots. Above this speed was more difficult to fly this aircraft, and above 600 knots the situation was even worse. "

    “I advised our pilots to engage in aerial combat against the MiG-17 only when their speed (Israeli aircraft) exceeded 400 knots. At these speeds, the MiG was not a threat to them, but below 400 knots, they had to break away from the MiGs, otherwise MiGs could make a sharp maneuver and go to their tail. "

    Both MiGs were transferred to the United States in the late sixties. One of them returned to Israel and is presented at the Air Force Museum.
  24. roial
    18 December 2012 14: 45
    Cool coloring, who says whose country ??

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