Military Review

Deck comparison J-15 is better than Su-33?

86
Just a month ago, in China, on the deck of the aircraft carrier "Liaoning" for the first time in stories countries sat fighter Shenyang J-15. By the end of November, the Chinese had already reported about five successful landings. It seems that such successes have turned their heads and a few days ago an even more interesting message came about China’s aircraft-carrier program. In the online edition of People's China Online, a note appeared in which the new Chinese J-15 is compared with the Russian Su-33 and the comparison is not at all in favor of our aircraft. The representative of the Chinese Ministry of Defense, Gen Yansheng, as evidence of the superiority of his fighter referred to modern onboard electronics, design excellence, the possibility of striking ground targets, etc. In the light of some data on the creation of the J-15 fighter, all these statements look at least ambiguous. Let's try to figure out if the words of Comrade Geng are true.


Deck comparison J-15 is better than Su-33?


First you need to remember the history of the development of the aircraft J-15. According to reports, back in the late nineties, China tried to buy from Russia fifty Su-33 fighter planes. During the negotiations on a possible contract, the number of desired aircraft was constantly reduced and eventually decreased to two units. It is not hard to guess that two fighter planes will not be able to arm even one aircraft carrier, but they can be used for reverse engineering with subsequent deployment of its own production of a copy. Despite the difficult economic situation and the need for new contracts, the Russian aircraft manufacturers refused to China and did not sell a single Su-33. A little later, China agreed with Ukraine on the sale of one of the Su-33 prototypes, T-10K, and some documentation on it. Around the middle of the two thousandth's, the Ukrainian aircraft went to China. In the summer of 2010, the first flight of the J-15 carrier-based fighter "self-developed" was reported. It should be noted that already at that time the Chinese called J-15 the development of the previous J-11 (first a licensed, and then a counterfeit copy of the Russian Su-27SK), and not a copy of the T-10К / Su-33. In this case, it turns out that for some unknown reason, the development of the J-11 project went exactly the same way as it was with Su-27K, which later became Su-33.

The available photos show that the Chinese J-15 has almost no noticeable external differences from the Russian Su-33. Perhaps some of the details and have a different view, but for their detection requires a careful and detailed inspection of the two aircraft. Thus, the structural differences between the gliders of the two deck fighters are likely to have only a technological "nature." The Chinese themselves are talking about some newer and more advanced materials. Most likely, some parts of the airframe are made either from other alloys or from composite materials. Either way, such a design change may entail some relief for the aircraft and easier maintenance. However, no weight advantage was achieved. An empty J-15 weighs as much as Su-33. Other weight indicators also vary slightly. As for aerodynamics or flight characteristics, the J-15 can hardly win in this respect only due to a change in the airframe design.




Much more important element of the aircraft in the context of the characteristics are its engines. Like the T-10K purchased from Ukraine, the J-15 is equipped with two dual-circuit turbojet engines. According to reports, the J-15 installed engines Shenyang WS-10A with afterburner about 13500 kgf. WS-10A give out almost a ton more than Russian AL-31F. Due to this, the Chinese fighter has a maximum speed in M ​​= 2,4, which is approximately 200 km / h higher than the Su-33. In general, the stated flight data of the Chinese fighter J-15 is at least not lower, but for a number of indicators and higher than the characteristics of the Russian Su-33. At the same time, it is worth noting such an important question as engine technology and their resource. Since the WS-10 engine family is directly related to the Russian AL-31 line, several versions appear at once. For example, the Chinese could copy not only the design of Russian motors, but also the technology of manufacturing their parts. It is the technological part of the modern aviation engine-building is one of the most difficult tasks. It seems that full copying failed. Recent modifications to the WS-10 engines, according to open sources, have a total resource of 200 hours. The AL-31F has this parameter five times more. Recently, the Chinese declared that they had found a way to increase the resource of the purchased AL-31F up to one and a half thousand hours, but their technology implies the revision of the motors after the purchase. Perhaps they will be able to introduce such technologies into the production of WS-10, but at present the resource of these engines leaves much to be desired and Chinese aircraft manufacturers have to massively purchase engines from Russia. In general, the WS-10A engine is not a good compromise between high performance and survivability.

The Chinese press as an advantage of its aircraft points to the possibility of attacking ground targets. The Su-33 armament range contains unguided caliber bombs up to 500 kilograms and unguided rockets of various types. During the tests, attempts were made to use anti-ship missiles X-41 "Mosquito", but the production aircraft have no such possibility. As a matter of fact, in the concept of the domestic carrier-based fighter, paramount importance was attached to the protection of ships from air attack, and the attack of ground targets was only an additional possibility. There is no accurate information about the range of weapons of the Chinese J-15 aircraft, and therefore there is every reason to assume that its capabilities to strike at the ground are also limited. If China decides to develop its carrier fleet in accordance with the American views on this question, then it is quite possible that any guided weapons will appear in the J-15 arsenal. At the moment, there is no exact information about this, and in fact all data is limited to the words of Gen Yanshen.

In the case of on-board electronics J-15 information is not much more. It is argued that the computing system of the fighter has much better characteristics as compared with the Su-33 avionics, for example, the speed of the main computer is several times higher. Of course, at first glance, such statements look promising. However, for a full analysis of the combat capabilities of electronic equipment, including the on-board computer, other information is also needed, right down to the specific tasks and characteristics of a particular element of the computing complex. In addition, even a super-powered computer will not provide the expected capabilities if there are no other equipment with relevant characteristics in the avionics. For example, a bad airborne radar is unable to help unleash the full potential of a powerful computer. Interestingly, so far there is no specific information regarding the radar fighter J-15. It is alleged that he carries a station with an active phased array, but there is reason to doubt it. One way or another, the onboard electronics of a fighter must be “balanced”, otherwise the achievement of high performance is by definition impossible. It should also be noted that most of the recent aircraft have developed onboard electronics, including for interaction with the latest guided weapons. At the moment, only the possibility of using only air-to-air guided weapons of the J-15 fighter is known. Guided weapons for strikes against ground targets, requiring a complex set of onboard equipment, is still in question.




And yet it is impossible not to admit that the J-15 fighter-electronic avionics, namely the computing complex, most likely does have higher characteristics than the Su-33 equipment. The reason for the backlog of the Russian aircraft is simple and obvious. In August of this year, 25 celebrated its anniversary of the first flight of the prototype T-10K. J-15, in turn, took off just a couple of years ago. The difference of twenty years could not affect the composition and capabilities of the onboard equipment. So the very comparison of the Su-33 and J-15, undertaken by the Chinese, is doomed to failure. Given the large difference in the age of the aircraft, as well as in the light of the obsolescence of technology, such a comparison is in some sense unsuccessful for the Chinese fighter. Even if J-15 really is ahead of Su-33 in all characteristics - which, I must say, is not observed - it only says that China could not overtake Russia, but the Soviet Union of the second half of the eighties. Such a “victory in the race” would be honorable for a developing country, but for a five-minute superpower, as China positions itself, it already looks rather doubtful.

It is quite clear that Su-33 was chosen as a “rival” in comparison only because J-15 was made, at least, using the documentation on it. Therefore, a new aircraft in some nuances may look better. However, for greater justice, it would be necessary to compare not the old plane with the new one, but two new ones. In this case, the “rival” J-15 could be the updated MiG-29K or its training version MiG-29KUB. The latest version of the MiG-29K is actually a development of the late eighties - early nineties, significantly improved in recent years, which is a bit like the J-15. Of course, the MiG-29K and J-15 are seriously different even at the level of weight and size parameters: the maximum take-off weight of the Chinese fighter is almost one and a half times larger than the Russian parameter. At the same time, the MiG-29K has modern onboard electronic equipment, high thrust-to-weight ratio (more than one with a normal take-off mass) and the possibility of using air-to-surface guided weapons. Thus, the Russian development already has all the advantages that the Chinese boast of, comparing their new aircraft with our old ones.

When comparing the truly new deck aircraft, we can also recall the time frame for the start of service. According to current statements by Chinese officials, the J-15 will be put into service in the 2014-15 year. At the beginning of this year, the Russian Ministry of Defense ordered RSK MiG two dozen MiG-29K and MiG-XNUMKUB fighters. Order date of performance - 29 year. Thus, the MiG-2015K and J-29 will go into operation almost simultaneously. It is also necessary to remind that initially compared with the Chinese fighter Su-15 to the same time it is planned to incapacitate due to the development of the resource. In their place will come the new MiG-33K. As a result, the J-29 is guaranteed to be able to compete with Russian carrier-based fighters only in number. However, in this case, the number of existing aircraft carriers will become a serious limiting factor for both aircraft, which will have to make a start when calculating the required number of fighters. Over the next few years, Russia will have only one aircraft carrier, and the construction of new ones is only planned. It is unlikely that new ships with aircraft on board will be commissioned earlier than 15. China, in turn, also possessing one aircraft carrier, is going to build new ones, although in his case it is too early to talk about the number and timing.

As you can see, the statements of the Chinese military about the superiority of the fighter Shenyang J-15 over the Su-33, if true, then only partially. For example, higher flight data is “compensated” by a small engine resource, and all the advantages in electronic equipment are easily explained by novelty alone. Yet the main problem of comparing these aircraft lies in the age of the machines. This aspect not only eliminates all the advantages of the Chinese machine, but also puts some Chinese citizens in a not very good light, because compared to the newer Russian machine, the J-15 no longer looks modern, unique and invincible.


On the materials of the sites:
http://lenta.ru/
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/
http://airwar.ru/
http://china-defense.blogspot.ru/
http://sac.com.cn/
Author:
86 comments
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  1. aktanir
    aktanir 10 December 2012 08: 07
    +43
    At present, Russia is developing in such economic conditions that, if necessary, it does not need to cooperate more with countries that buy equipment only in order to subsequently produce it, fully copied, on its territory, and do not give a damn about the copyright holders. It seems to me that under any formal pretext it is necessary to stop military trade with China. We ourselves will not suffer from this and will not allow this country to build up its military power through stolen technology.
    1. Civil
      Civil 10 December 2012 10: 29
      +13
      Even if the J-15 is really ahead of the Su-33 in all respects - which, it must be said, is not observed - it only means that China was technologically not able to catch up with Russia, but also the Soviet Union of the second half of the eighties


      and they themselves have gone far from the USSR ?!
      1. Wedmak
        Wedmak 10 December 2012 10: 31
        +14
        It depends on what you compare it to. Somewhere already decently come off.
        1. Inzhengr
          Inzhengr 10 December 2012 15: 01
          +8
          yes, in terms of corruption
          1. alex-defensor
            alex-defensor 12 December 2012 00: 50
            0
            Quote: aktanir
            At present, Russia is developing in such economic conditions that, if necessary, it does not need to cooperate more with countries that buy equipment only in order to subsequently produce it, fully copied, on its territory, and do not give a damn about the copyright holders. It seems to me that under any formal pretext it is necessary to stop military trade with China. We ourselves will not suffer from this and will not allow this country to build up its military power through stolen technology.


            Well, we can bring a lawsuit ... if only China will execute the court decision ?! We will definitely not fight because of this.
        2. neri73-r
          neri73-r 10 December 2012 15: 16
          +2
          Yes, if we talk about housing and communal services, then they came off, in the sense of behind, forever!
        3. viktor_ui
          viktor_ui 10 December 2012 17: 47
          +5
          Wedmak RU "It depends on what to compare with. Somewhere have already come off decently." .... in terms of theft at the level of the Supreme Command ??? - there is nowhere to come off - don't make me laugh wassat
    2. Dnepropetrovsk
      Dnepropetrovsk 12 December 2012 00: 38
      0
      Not only did they copy the plane, but they also say that it’s better than what they copied from.
    3. med262
      med262 14 May 2013 11: 46
      0
      The words "patent law" are not translated into Chinese. So trade with them in this area should be curtailed.
  2. PLO
    PLO 10 December 2012 08: 15
    +18
    and it was worth writing such a detailed analysis
    the absurdity of comparing the su-33 that flew almost 25 years ago with its miserable Chinese counterpart is obvious
    it would be better if they compared with Su-35, I would love to read

    but in general it is a pity that the su-33 will be written off, the plane is beautiful
    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak 10 December 2012 09: 51
      +8
      It was worth it, it was worth it ... After all, not everyone understands such "small" details as years of construction and engine life.
    2. 11 black
      11 black 10 December 2012 10: 25
      +17
      Quote: olp
      it would be better if they compared with Su-35, I would love to read

      olp, but what are you - how can they compare flying scrap metal of a resource that is enough for several flights with a normal plane ... and by the way, the ws10 Chinese imperfection will be more correctly compared with the AL41 developed in the same years as the ws10 copied, and so - the thrust is al41 15000kg with an overhaul interval of 4000 hours ... no comments.
      1. 11 black
        11 black 10 December 2012 12: 01
        +7
        especially for URA patriots - I called j15 a flying scrap metal and in general, if you put a minus, take the trouble to explain why!
        1. plotnikov561956
          plotnikov561956 10 December 2012 12: 21
          +2
          Quote: 11 black
          especially for URA patriots - I called j15 a flying scrap metal and in general, if you put a minus, take the trouble to explain why!


          Regarding flying scrap metal it can be very hard ... rather not flying ..... if the resource is not 5 times, but by an order of 200 and 2000 hours (in other sources according to AL-31), then it turns out flying-scheduled .. .
      2. VAF
        VAF 10 December 2012 15: 36
        +4
        Quote: 11 black
        with an overhaul interval of 4000 hours ... without comments.


        Immediately I say, set, +! But ... maybe you were a little mistaken ..... not at the overhaul interval (such a concept a priori does not exist; there is the term overhaul resource in hours and the overhaul calendar in years wink ),

        So ..can the APPOINTED engine life be 4000 hours? wink
    3. VAF
      VAF 10 December 2012 18: 40
      +2
      Quote: olp
      the absurdity of comparing the su-33 that flew almost 25 years ago with its miserable Chinese counterpart is obvious


      Oleg, only +!

      Here's another, so to speak .. for comparison .... our Mi-14th ... even then ....



      And the current Chinese ..... Changhe Z-8KA ....

      1. jasorgho
        jasorgho 10 December 2012 19: 06
        +4
        sorry, but this is a license of the French helicopter Super Frelon
        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sud-Aviation_SA.321_Super-Frelon
        rather, this Mi-14 was inspired by Super Frelone, because the last 62 years of development
  3. Alexander Petrovich
    Alexander Petrovich 10 December 2012 08: 28
    0
    To hell, I hate these monkeys, and our fools all step on the same rake.
  4. King
    King 10 December 2012 08: 48
    +5
    China is doing everything to make its military products competitive. but like everything that has been done in China, it’s just a cheap fake. (Sherpotreb). Chinese products for those who do not have the means to buy good equipment in Russia and the USA. And the Chinese themselves understand this and therefore buy aircraft in Russia the same
  5. Rus_87
    Rus_87 10 December 2012 08: 48
    +4
    To compare the J-15 with the Su-33, as the author said, is not correct, there is a very large temporary gap between them, to compare with the MiG-29K / KUB, it is also wrong, too different aircraft both in terms of the complex of tasks being solved and in terms of weight and dimensions, etc. The J-15 must be compared with the Su-27KUB! Here, for sure, there is China in the "span"!
    1. VAF
      VAF 10 December 2012 16: 17
      +4
      Quote: Rus_87
      to compare with the Mig-29K / KUB, it’s also wrong, the planes are too different both in terms of the complex of tasks being solved and in mass and size, etc.


      That's for sure .... our, or rather the "Nidian" C / CUB is so good that the Chinese have nothing to do next!

      1. Zerstorer
        Zerstorer 10 December 2012 19: 02
        0
        This is an SMT commissioned by India (they call them MiG-29UPG)

        A MiG-29K / KUB
      2. jasorgho
        jasorgho 10 December 2012 19: 12
        0
        what criteria were compared? For example, I spent 20 minutes in the net and could not compare, can I have a brief comparative summary? or was it a particular comment, anyhow to write?
    2. jasorgho
      jasorgho 10 December 2012 19: 10
      +1
      and if they converge in the sky, then how can the Chinese explain that aircraft of different classes and ours cannot be shot down?))
      if you compare, then compare on the basis of the real situation, due to the greater radius of action, the Ketai planes will keep our aircraft carrier at a distance and force the carabels to fight in worse conditions ...
      I hope this advantage is neutralized for the pilot’s brush (as always) and the quality of rockets and radars
  6. Oleg1986
    Oleg1986 10 December 2012 08: 50
    +2
    It is hard to imagine how a fake on, conditionally, a Swiss watch, could be better than the original. They probably have a LED flashlight built in somewhere. And at the expense of using other people's ideas - it was written somewhere that the Chinese religion forbids (in all seriousness, without irony) to invent something.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 10 December 2012 09: 24
      +9
      Quote: Oleg1986
      And at the expense of using other people's ideas - it was written somewhere that the Chinese religion forbids (in all seriousness, without irony) to invent something.


      The Japanese have recently copied this (guess two times) on the basis of Daikhatsu and nothing, they give out as their demand, there is something, but there is no mind to build it
      1. Hunghuz
        Hunghuz 10 December 2012 13: 38
        +1
        Looks like a smaller Toyota Town Ace with PAZ headlamps.
      2. Srgsoap
        Srgsoap 10 December 2012 17: 57
        +7
        In fact, the muzzle of the UAZ 452 is popularly known as a "loaf".
      3. Nick
        Nick 11 December 2012 16: 44
        0
        Bah! "Loaf" in Japanese performance! I had one 15 years ago. Permeability class! Reliability, large 0. Judging by the photo, the Japanese have a large cross-country ability of 0, but the reliability of IMHO ++ ...
    2. GELEZNII_KAPUT
      GELEZNII_KAPUT 10 December 2012 15: 59
      +1
      their flashlight moved to bekren, and what to invent ... not in that climatic zone they live!
  7. terp 50
    terp 50 10 December 2012 09: 00
    +15
    ... with a with a with a bastard. D, what are they all, everyone, lick ,,. The towers themselves do not, well, nothing original (except for the wall). Zadolbali their consumer goods, often also not high quality.
  8. Fox
    Fox 10 December 2012 09: 12
    +2
    Lying would the Chinese people like their product! Let them amuse themselves.
  9. wave
    wave 10 December 2012 09: 15
    -2
    Good thing I'm not Chinese! Such they are pathetic ..
  10. Alexander Petrovich
    Alexander Petrovich 10 December 2012 09: 27
    0
    I repeat, otherwise they deleted it -
    To hell, I hate these monkeys, and our fools all step on the same rake.
    1. Smirnov Vadim
      Smirnov Vadim 10 December 2012 09: 34
      0
      Stirring natsrezni!
  11. Garrin
    Garrin 10 December 2012 09: 29
    +8
    Despite the difficult economic situation and the need for new contracts, Russian aircraft manufacturers refused to China and did not sell a single Su-33. A little later, China agreed with Ukraine on the sale of one of the prototypes of the Su-33 - T-10K - and some documentation on it

    That's where the "fifth column" is. am
    1. Nymp
      Nymp 11 December 2012 00: 12
      +2
      Quote: Garrin
      That's where the "fifth column" is.
      Yes, these are ready to sell anyone for money! And then give them cheaper gas! If I were Putin, I would forbid them to sell our military equipment, and then later, if not in Georgia, it knocks down our planes, then it’s copied to the competition from competitors, it’s opposed to us!
  12. Kostyanich
    Kostyanich 10 December 2012 09: 45
    +5
    well done kitayozy even though they produce something (even if they licked)
    but ours can sell oil, gas, gas
    it's time to think too painfully strong becomes our narrow-eyed neighbor
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 10 December 2012 12: 26
      +7
      Quote: kostyanich
      but ours can sell oil, gas, gas

      To ours and to whom not so,
  13. david210512
    david210512 10 December 2012 10: 06
    +4
    but they want to buy our su 35s too .... our patronage will be full of digridantomy if I sell ...
  14. pav-pon1972
    pav-pon1972 10 December 2012 10: 21
    +7
    The Chinese have swallowed the bait from the United States in the arms race and have taken the path of developing maximum funding for projects that they have not worked out, which will financially tighten the stomachs of all of China, and moreover, also expensive ones. We were so blundered at the SDI, which led to the financial and political collapse of the USSR.
    1. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 01: 53
      0
      Quote: pav-pon1972
      The Chinese swallowed the bait from the United States in the arms race and took the path of developing maximum funding for projects that they have not worked out, which will financially tighten the stomachs of all of China

      Well, peace be upon them laughing They love to copy everything! Only here is one serious BUT. Unlike shitty Chinese consumer goods, military hardware, as Chinese intelligence has learned (horror), MUST WORK! belay
  15. akbarr
    akbarr 10 December 2012 10: 43
    0
    The author of the article certainly filed the material, but there remains the impression of being far-fetched. This always happens when people try to reason and evaluate something that is not convincingly confirmed (this is about J-15).
    It's like comparing who defeats a bear or a bigfoot.
    Well, among other things, I do not believe in the ability of the Chinese to create modern weapons, to steal and copy is as much as you want ....
  16. Akim
    Akim 10 December 2012 10: 49
    +3
    Riddle: Find 10 differences ...


    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak 10 December 2012 10: 51
      0
      The second is a little painted!
    2. 11 black
      11 black 10 December 2012 15: 05
      +2
      Quote: Akim
      Riddle: Find 10 differences ...

      COLORS ARE DIFFERENT - EVERYTHING !!! THIS IS 100% DEVELOPMENT OF CHINA AND NO COPYING !!! laughing wink
      1. Akim
        Akim 10 December 2012 15: 40
        +6
        11 black,

        There are visible external differences. Another number of blades on the turbine. In general - these two engines are similar to each other like Toyota Yaris on Geely MK. It seems like they licked it from the first, and you’ll dig half of the spare parts from Toyota is not suitable.
    3. postman
      postman 11 December 2012 09: 28
      +1
      Quote: Akim
      Riddle: Find 10 differences ...
      - FOR SIMPLY
      AL-31F WS-10
      Diameter: 905 mm 950 mm
      Length: (4945) 4990 mm 4630 mm
      compressor stages 4F +9 H 3F +9 H
      The number of turbine stages 1H +1 L 1H +2 L
      Combustion chambers annular Short annular
      bypass ratio 0.6 0.78
      total increase 23,8> 30
      compressor pressure
      Deadlift: (7,14) 7,8 7,5
      fan
      (pressure ratio) 3,6 ~ 3,3
      compressor VD, 6,46 12
      relative pressure
      WS-10 (problem areas)

      AL-31F (these zones are absent)

      WS-10 need to look for differences with F110-GE-100




      624 institute, chief designer Jiang Hefu and plant No.403 did a good job
  17. SSR
    SSR 10 December 2012 10: 53
    +1
    Nevertheless, the main problem of comparing these aircraft is
    the fact that the Chinese are not only copying our technology, but also pi *** t our technology, and frankly without hesitation.
    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak 10 December 2012 10: 54
      +4
      Well, actually everyone is engaged in this business. In one way or another.
      1. SSR
        SSR 10 December 2012 15: 06
        0
        Quote: Wedmak
        in fact, everyone is engaged in this business. In one way or another.

        good
        Just not so brazenly and not on such a scale)))
      2. GSH-18
        GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 10
        0
        Quote: Wedmak
        Well, actually everyone is engaged in this business. In one way or another

        But with an overwhelming margin Sheen leads! laughing
    2. Demon_Ex
      Demon_Ex 10 December 2012 12: 15
      +5
      The engine is 100% AL-31K, ours for the Chinese produces engines with a lower arrangement of the drive box, and in the photo there is an upper arrangement. And the difference is only in materials and manufacturing technology. According to experts, the resource of these forgeries is 8 times less than that of the originals of the first issues 120 hours against 900. Let the metallurgy develop. I saw a Chinese tank "Type 64" a clone of our T-55. The armor after hitting the coil from the "Rapier" was simply broken and metal chips fell from the edges of the hole. This is the armor.
      1. GSH-18
        GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 13
        0
        Quote: Demon_Ex
        Let metallurgy develop.

        They do nothing to metallurgy. The plastic is forever! laughing And everything else is from the boards wassat
    3. viktor_ui
      viktor_ui 10 December 2012 17: 49
      +1
      Kitaytsi don’t ... they buy technology from our thieving bureaucrats, and these are different things.
    4. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 06
      0
      Quote: SSR
      Nevertheless, the main problem of comparing these aircraft is
      the fact that the Chinese are not only copying our technology, but also pi *** t our technology, and frankly without hesitation.

      You are so surprised as if you just found out about it! The Chinese have ALL "their" military equipment from the USSR and the Russian Federation. With branded Chinese "improvements" from which the performance characteristics suffer terribly, but the technique instantly becomes purely Chinese! lol
  18. Stalingradec
    Stalingradec 10 December 2012 11: 37
    +2
    I look at the photographs and think: if I were to put the J-15 and Su-33 in the unpainted form, it is hardly possible to guess which of them is who.
    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak 10 December 2012 11: 42
      0
      Why, then ... You just need to find the inscription "Made in China"!
    2. knife
      knife 10 December 2012 12: 47
      +1
      The degree of coloring thing is probably not even third-rate wink The engine is a blade, as Russian engine drivers evolve in this sense, briefly there is http://oko-planet.su/science/sciencenews/60718-vo-vse-lopatki.html The article is not new, it has already been cited, but gives a general idea wink
    3. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 15
      0
      Quote: StalinGradec
      I look at the photographs and think: if I were to put the J-15 and Su-33 in the unpainted form, it is hardly possible to guess which of them is who.

      You're not right. Answer: Two Su-33 yes
  19. ded_73
    ded_73 10 December 2012 11: 59
    +1
    What can I say. Well done Chinese! National interests above all. And how they are achieved, from a moral point of view, they are not interested. By the nature of the service to communicate with them. They say with a direct test - where one Russian understands and does it, we need three or four specialists (therefore their delegations are always so large). Therefore, they have a very narrow specialization, there is no unified approach (one - knows one thing). But this absolutely does not prevent them from producing decent models of technology. And constantly learn, while slowly grinding down. And why not steal if it is bad.
    Today, I must admit, the Chinese army is one of the most, if not the most combat-ready in the world. A good weapon, a trained and morally strong soldier - is this not the dream of every commander in chief?
    1. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 19
      0
      Quote: ded_73
      Today, I must admit, the Chinese army is one of the most, if not the most combat-ready in the world.

      You're right. However, their main strength is quantity. Not quality.
      We almost went through a similar situation in World War II. When, perfectly technologically armed army was opposed simply by a living force. The price of victory is known to everyone .. sad
  20. leon-iv
    leon-iv 10 December 2012 12: 42
    0
    MMM, but nothing that a lot of time has passed?
    At the same time, aircraft carriers of different classes and tasks are compared. Moreover, Kuznetsov is only a parody of an aircraft carrier.
    By the way, with the stubbornness of a worthy better application, they sculpt PGO wherever it costs
  21. segamegament
    segamegament 10 December 2012 12: 47
    +8
    Well, the planes were copied, but if you have enough sense to invent, where will they take off from? Personally, it seems to me that all their subsequent aircraft carriers will not differ much from the Varyag, and a greater "miracle" is beginning to be born in our country!
    1. patsantre
      patsantre 10 December 2012 16: 16
      +2
      This miracle was born to us 20 years ago, and it was sawn up, I think it’s not necessary to speak by someone’s efforts. And so far, nothing has been born to us, as long as they think. How they will give birth.
    2. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 28
      0
      Quote: segamegament
      Well, the planes were copied, but if you have enough sense to invent, where will they take off from? Personally, it seems to me that all their subsequent aircraft carriers will not differ much from the Varyag, and a greater "miracle" is beginning to emerge in our country.

      In vain you lighted THIS here .. The Chinese do not sleep! laughing
  22. knn54
    knn54 10 December 2012 12: 56
    +1
    Even more. They’ve been dragging them since the 20s.
    They have a contest in the army more. than in our universities. In the 80 years (I don’t know now) the operator (air defense, radio reconnaissance), who fell asleep at the post, was sentenced to death. And the moral and psychological preparation was limping then.
    And yet, in the PRC, the profession of manager is not prestigious: even with us they study as engineers. Pharmacists ...
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 10 December 2012 13: 07
      +2
      And yet, in China, the profession of manager is not prestigious
      you smile me))
      Being a good manager is very prestigious. And units achieve this.
      1. knn54
        knn54 11 December 2012 14: 55
        0
        The units are godfather, matchmaker, brother ... After the reforms of Den Xiao Ping, China, as a socialist state. does not exist.
        And in Europe (I don't know why) the profession of "manager" is the most popular in Norway.
    2. Prometey
      Prometey 10 December 2012 14: 33
      0
      knn54
      You are wrong. Service in the Chinese Armed Forces is the destiny of the poor - the rural population. Urban, grown in cities can not be lured there.
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 10 December 2012 15: 09
        +2
        that’s how they have military service in the mail
        1. sasha.28blaga
          sasha.28blaga 11 December 2012 06: 06
          +1
          Service in the NCA in China is very honorable. In some cases, people of draft age have to pay extra for military service. But this is not due to patriotism, but rather to the situation of the Chinese themselves. Very great competition among the working population, difficulties in finding work.
          1. knn54
            knn54 11 December 2012 15: 06
            0
            Therefore, one should not expect high endurance from a PLA soldier.
            Afghanistan and Georgia (08.08.08) showed that the infantry is the queen of the fields. And the equipment ... Yes, nowhere without it. But how much did she do in the last conflict in southern Lebanon. And the stamina of the defenders of Basra. It’s too early to write off (disband) army, corps, division.
      2. knn54
        knn54 11 December 2012 14: 48
        0
        I don’t think that everything has changed a lot in 30 years.
  23. Cvyatochek
    Cvyatochek 10 December 2012 13: 23
    0
    not only timber, gas, oil is sold. They also began to stretch the country's defense ... it is doubtful that, knowing the plans of the Chinese engineers, we missed the opportunity to stop the process of licking the apparatus. They were just allowed to do this ...
  24. silver_roman
    silver_roman 10 December 2012 13: 27
    +2
    as they say in modern politics: "This article causes only regret and compassion!" and to be honest, a share of anger. The Chinese, in addition to their fertility, as it turns out, are also famous for their arrogance and one might even say rudeness. somehow they inspire more fear than amers.
    Someone from the predictor said that in the end, the yellow race will rule. oh, how unpleasant is such a future. I hope it will turn out to exclude it, or at least push it forward a couple of hundred years.
  25. Evrepid
    Evrepid 10 December 2012 14: 09
    +1
    Yeah...
    You just need to develop your technology and not look at the fact that someone is copying us!
    And you can’t give up technology! In no case! Sell ​​please, but without technology!
    1. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 40
      0
      Quote: Evrepid
      Sell ​​please, but without technology!

      So, and how to do it, if cheating at all stages of the contracts: the contract is to supply several hundred pieces of equipment (but at the request of the bus-side it is fractional). As a result, the first batch of several units is delivered, the Chinese refuse to supply further longer. And tire engineers can safely proceed with the invention of the latest Chinese technology through disassembly of spare parts for incoming equipment! laughing
  26. Light
    Light 10 December 2012 14: 27
    +2
    The thing is that China has a LOT of this.
    For each of our "super-duper" they will put a dozen of their "flying scrap metal", as someone thoughtlessly put it, and this "our all" will end.
    Even if China loses 200-300 cars, it will not hurt him particularly. And if Russia loses so much, that means kapets.
    I would also like to add that the plane is a cart for a rocket (bomb), like a tank is a cart for a gun.
    I wonder how China is doing in this area.
  27. scorpido
    scorpido 10 December 2012 14: 59
    +1
    The word copy and Chinese have already become synonymous.
    1. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 44
      0
      Quote: scorpido
      The word copy and Chinese have already become synonymous

      Why do you think there are so many? Copy all night planing! laughing
  28. cucun
    cucun 10 December 2012 15: 15
    +3
    As in a joke:
    - The Chinese are not afraid of American tanks, the cannon of which flashes any Chinese tank on departure because an American tank shell costs as much as a Chinese tank ....
  29. Nechai
    Nechai 10 December 2012 15: 15
    +4
    Quote: Demon_Ex
    I saw a Chinese tank "Type 64

    At the stern of the tower - three hieroglyphs "Wind from the East" - were located on all weapons and ammunition. Yes, plasticine armor. But then it was not samples and documents - completely the production and the process was set for them. But as soon as our instructors were kicked out, the baida died.
    And how did they modernize the PT-76! lol In general, a complete atas - such a cow with an 85mm cannon, for climbing rice checks, on the pieces of a medium tank.
    ps. Sedni what only flags the system does not hang me and it was a Pole, and a Norwegian, and now, please, to the amers "lodged". Are these jokes like that? /
    1. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 49
      0
      Quote: Nechai
      ps. Sedni what only flags the system does not hang me and it was a Pole, and a Norwegian, and now, please, to the amers "lodged". Are these jokes like that? /

      These are machinations wassat
  30. I. Brovkin
    I. Brovkin 10 December 2012 15: 18
    +3
    I would also like to add that the plane is a cart for a rocket (bomb), like a tank is a cart for a gun.
    I wonder how China is doing in this area.

    It seems to me that it’s complete crap. There is no long-range air-to-air missile, there is no medium-range missile, but they are so-so, from a small point of view, they seem to be a little better. There is nothing to say about air-to-ground missiles and corrected air bombs.
  31. werr17
    werr17 10 December 2012 15: 47
    +1
    As the writer Shukshin wrote: "They compared crap with a finger," forgive the expression.
  32. genzik161
    genzik161 10 December 2012 17: 02
    +1
    How we fucked you devils and we will fight
  33. Megatron
    Megatron 10 December 2012 17: 11
    0
    I wonder what kind of aircraft we would have now if the USSR didn’t fall apart ??? !!!
    1. tichsha
      tichsha 10 December 2012 17: 26
      0
      something like your ava!
    2. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 10 December 2012 23: 06
      +1
      Quote: Megatron
      I wonder what kind of aircraft we would have now if the USSR didn’t fall apart ??? !!!

      Perhaps the same as now, but here are the numbers .....
  34. Max79
    Max79 10 December 2012 18: 00
    0
    So the question is ........ The Chinese need to merge all the technology? It is only idiots that can do that. Why aren’t ours copying anything? How many Western weapons can be copied or upgraded.
    For the country, for the people insulting ....
    1. patsantre
      patsantre 10 December 2012 18: 05
      -1
      You also need to be able to copy, but the Chinese ate the dog in this)
      1. Max79
        Max79 10 December 2012 19: 08
        +3
        patsantre,
        They eat dogs even without this. The fact is that with the help of trials and multiple mistakes we went to the creation of this miracle of aircraft engineering. And the impudent chinas came to the ready, and even the stupid and snickering generals and bureaucrats of our army have this loot, but suffer all Russian people and our country ...
        1. Light
          Light 10 December 2012 19: 42
          -4
          Quote: Max79
          The fact is that we, with the help of trials and multiple mistakes, went to the creation of this miracle of aircraft construction. And the impudent Sinies came to the end, and even the stupid and snickering generals and bureaucrats of our army have this loot, and the whole Russian people and our country suffer. ..

          This is called "a thief stole a club from a thief."
          The Union at one time also had a lot of stolen things in terms of weapons and technology.
          So now there is nothing to drive a wave about this.
    2. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 02: 56
      0
      Quote: Max79
      So the question is ........ The Chinese need to merge all the technology? This is only idiots so can do

      Military technology is a national treasure of the country. We have a clear flaw in secrecy! When will the president start doing this ?? request
  35. sapulid
    sapulid 10 December 2012 18: 15
    +5
    Well done, that they were able to buy our glider and improve. Amerikosy and we, copied from each other. They are on the right track. Someday, they will create their own. We need to put more pressure on corruption nits in our country so that copies of ours from them do not appear. This is our misfortune. Thousands plow, and one sssuk sells ...
    1. GSH-18
      GSH-18 10 December 2012 23: 17
      -1
      Quote: sapulid
      Well done, that they were able to buy our glider and improve. Amerikosy and we, copied from each other. They are on the right track. Someday, they will create their own. We need to put more pressure on corruption nits in our country so that copies of ours from them do not appear. This is our misfortune. Thousands plow, and one sssuk sells ...

      I think, for this it is necessary to quietly put to the wall! am
  36. 1goose3
    1goose3 10 December 2012 19: 00
    0
    Brazenly, with frozen eyes, without feeling any shame, China is trying to fulfill the tasks set for the future. And by the way, sometimes, it turns out well. And the plane, even if not the most worthless copy, are trying to pass off as a super achievement. This "method" they licked the same from ours. Only with ours it works, well, sometimes they are very strictly put in a corner, but these Chinese aircraft builders, I'm afraid the wall is waiting. No wonder they are fussing about their own achievements. In China, they ask strictly for budget funds.
  37. the polar
    the polar 10 December 2012 21: 23
    +1
    Don’t worry, all this Chinese rhetoric about superiority over SU-33 is not intended for Russia but for the USA. The Pindostans, in their narrow circle, highly value Russian military equipment, so the information about the superiority of Kiai aircraft over Russian should, in theory, be very disappointing.
    This is Chinese diplomacy.
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 10 December 2012 23: 33
      0
      and I read that every new type of weapons in China is declared a "Great Victory", there is even a special hieroglyph on this topic. This strengthens the spirit of the nation. It's bad that cheap counterfeits are squeezing us out of traditional Russian arms markets. Here is where to extract the maximum benefit is to plug huge holes in our own weapons system with serial deliveries. Of course, the price of products will increase for our budget. But if we cut off the corruption component and capital outflow over the hill, maybe everything is not so Fantastic. That's just how the most important thing is painless for the country , to carry it out. here, I think, and ten Confucius will not give an answer ...
    2. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 03: 03
      0
      Quote: Polar
      Do not worry, all this Chinese rhetoric about superiority over the SU-33 is not intended for Russia but for the USA. Pindostans in their narrow circle highly value Russian military equipment

      Yes. But the Americans are not id * iots for Chinese noodles are not conducted. This noodle bar is mainly for indoor use.
  38. RUS-36
    RUS-36 10 December 2012 22: 53
    0
    Tear off the plane, and then claim its superiority .... cross-eyed are completely overgrown ...
  39. arduan
    arduan 10 December 2012 23: 09
    +1
    I do not understand only one thing: is this technique for the Chinese for themselves or for export? If export, what are they counting on? Who in their right mind would buy these planes and tanks from them? With a Chinese image "This is not Vietnamese bullshit, this is real Chinese quality!" And if for yourself ... let them arm themselves, everyone went through this. Not everyone, of course, ended the same way.
  40. GSH-18
    GSH-18 10 December 2012 23: 09
    +1
    laughing This is a complete rzhach! Insolence in Chinese! Copy our plane, and say that they did it and that they did better! They would have compared their home-made with LA-5 laughing It would be really cool! lol
    And if it is abstractly shitty than Chinese production, there is nothing in the world! Someone does not agree ??
    1. Kavtorang
      Kavtorang 11 December 2012 03: 47
      +1
      I do not agree wink .
      But I do not minus, making allowances for remoteness. If you moor nearby our "Fast" (clean project 956) and the Chinese "Teizhou" (project 956EM), your laughs will quickly evaporate. You will see two ZRAK "Goalkeeper", a permanent hangar-based deck helicopter and improved habitability in the KMO area.
      No need to throw slippers to China, it can be very painful to fly back.
      Blind decked aircraft? Blinded. Good or bad, but there is. How many carrier-based aircraft at the Pacific Fleet? Right, zero. And they will bring the plane to mind, do not hesitate.
      1. Windbreak
        Windbreak 11 December 2012 11: 53
        +1
        Nothing that the 956EM project was developed by the Northern Design Bureau and the ships were built at the Severnaya Verf shipyard? And you will also see there 2 KRAKTAN ZRAK, and not Goalkeeper ZAK
        1. Kavtorang
          Kavtorang 11 December 2012 12: 10
          0
          It's nothing.
          The sacred right to work for export and fulfill the wishes of the customer. There is no "Kashtanov" - personally in the hands of wink The tracing paper of the Dutch "Goalkeeper" with open architecture. The command fleet drove us there by order.
          1. Windbreak
            Windbreak 11 December 2012 13: 03
            0
            Quote: Kavtorang
            There are no "Chestnuts" there - personally in the hands of a spit the Calca of the Dutch "Goalkeeper" with open architecture
            Previously "Chestnuts" were there. Show then the photo 956EM with Type 730 CIWS installed
        2. Kavtorang
          Kavtorang 11 December 2012 12: 53
          +1
          You must not be a staff officer or military acceptance - you don’t know the practical state of the fleet. Hence, the design specifications that you are cleverly operating with, design specifications and actual values ​​differ by a factor of two.
          1. GSH-18
            GSH-18 27 December 2012 03: 22
            0
            Quote: Kavtorang
            You must not be a staff officer or military acceptance - you don’t know the practical state of the fleet. Hence, the design specifications that you are cleverly operating with, design specifications and actual values ​​differ by a factor of two.

            In this case, what’s the matter, since everything has such a backlash.
            In general, I do not believe (and I will be supported) that the Chinese themselves can do military equipment at the level of the Russian Federation and USA. This country can only fight in numbers (which can be effective), but from a moral point of view, it is not justified. In their country there are no such talented engineers as ours and Amers. In general, for us, in technical terms, they are no match, period.
      2. GSH-18
        GSH-18 27 December 2012 03: 11
        0
        Quote: Kavtorang
        Blind decked aircraft? Blinded. Good or bad, but there is. How many carrier-based aircraft at the Pacific Fleet? Right, zero. And they will bring the plane to mind, do not hesitate.

        No one doubts. Still know how.
      3. GSH-18
        GSH-18 27 December 2012 03: 49
        0
        Quote: Kavtorang
        oh not minus, making allowances for remoteness. If you moor next to our "Fast" (clean project 956) and the Chinese "Teizhou" (project 956EM), your laughs will quickly evaporate. You will see two ZRAK "Goalkeeper", a permanent hangar-based deck helicopter and improved habitability in the KMO area.
        No need to throw slippers to China, it can be very painful to fly back.

        And what do you think is wrong? The corvettes you cited as an example are of Russian design and construction. You yourself reinforced my words!
  41. Nymp
    Nymp 11 December 2012 00: 29
    0
    If Russia does not seriously rejuvenate the brains of the design bureau, then, in 15-20 years, mother Russia will have to buy military equipment like the Chinese in order to copy it. After all, our youth all went into trade and into offices! Everyone dreams of becoming "michendizers", "schmeisers" and other idlers, to sit in a warm office of some "super-duper" company to play games and get more for it than a man at a machine or any other manufacturer! And these are already the majority, the time when the phrase; - "I want to be an engineer!" sounded proudly, passed.
    1. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 03: 29
      0
      Quote: Nymp
      If Russia does not seriously rejuvenate the brains of the design bureau, then in 15-20 years mother Russia will have to buy military equipment like the Chinese in order to copy it. After all, our youth all went into trade and into offices! Everyone dreams of becoming "michendizers", "schmeisers" and other idlers, to sit in the warm office of some "super-duper" company to play games and get more for it than a man at a machine or other

      You are mistaken (fortunately for us) dear friend. I personally know two young (already working by profession) guys of rocket engineers. Which had to change their occupation (not of their own free will), and become successful engineers in another field of technology. But if the motherland calls, then there will be rockets, and such as you need! You can be sure.
  42. Megatron
    Megatron 11 December 2012 01: 30
    +2
    200 hours of flight time for the engine, pleased. The Chinas are all disposable, including airplanes, probably they will start supplying them to Japan for kamikaze to Japan! )))))
    1. BRATISHKA
      BRATISHKA 11 December 2012 06: 38
      +1
      Do not compare basement slippers, Abibas clothes that are sewn in China, with the machine-building industry and high technology, factory and licensed in China of high quality, you better see how our air defense systems are assembled
      http://www.mk.ru/politics/article/2012/03/15/681956-vseh-vragov-rossii-perepem.h
      tml

      after such a language does not turn to speak against the Chinese, and this situation would not be surprised if in the entire military-industrial complex, the military-industrial complex does not bring such profit as oil and gas, for example, one loss, now I’m doing night clubs from factories
  43. Kavtorang
    Kavtorang 11 December 2012 04: 28
    +3
    Quote: Megatron
    The Chinas are all disposable, including airplanes, probably they will start supplying them to Japan for kamikaze to Japan! )))))

    Another cheers -! The Red Army - all the stronger!
    You would read what intelligence provides for combat planning.
    China has the 4th place in the world for the export of weapons and military equipment. Two "digital" divisions were rolled back for combat use. The rearmament of the ground forces, the navy, the air force, and the "second artillery" with brand new models is underway. You will mind something that the Chinese "one-time" feel
    Ours tried to excite illegal copying of the Su-27. The Chinese sent our forest and riveted safely, increasing production capacity.
  44. orfo
    orfo 11 December 2012 05: 26
    +1
    But neher Russian engines to sell them
    1. Kavtorang
      Kavtorang 11 December 2012 05: 45
      0
      Contract however feel . Kindly comply with the conditions.
      1. GSH-18
        GSH-18 27 December 2012 03: 33
        0
        Quote: Kavtorang
        The contract, however, feel. Kindly comply with the conditions.

        They can only deliver equipment with such a configuration so that it would be impossible to parse the blocks to zero and copy, let them break off.
  45. arthur_hammer
    arthur_hammer 11 December 2012 13: 51
    +2
    It is necessary to stop cooperating with the Chinas in the field of high technologies in general on ..............))))
    1. knn54
      knn54 11 December 2012 15: 18
      +1
      There are rats that can be sold to them on the cheap. And before you sell new, you need to equip your own aircraft. And secondly, China sells Russian (and other) clones cheaper than the originals, which causes damage to the treasury from the sale of weapons.
  46. radio operator
    radio operator 11 December 2012 14: 55
    +1
    Unfortunately, the Chinese are technologically leaps and bounds. I think that the hour is not far off when they will catch us.
    Honestly, I would not want to.
    1. GSH-18
      GSH-18 27 December 2012 03: 36
      0
      Quote: radio operator
      Unfortunately, the Chinese are technologically leaps and bounds. I think that the hour is not far off when they will catch us.
      Honestly, I would not want to.

      They are seven mile piz *** t our military technology. And maybe they’ll catch up soon. But you won’t overtake, you won’t jump above your head laughing
  47. Megatron
    Megatron 11 December 2012 16: 48
    0
    They will severely tear the navel, and neighbors in SE Asia will not let him open his mouth very much, led by India. Yes, and the States will continue to mischief.
  48. Dikoy
    Dikoy 27 December 2012 00: 11
    -1
    You might think that we didn’t rip off the TU-4 right up to the camera in the cockpit and did not install the Rolls-Royce engines in the MIG-15.
    China fights, fights brazenly, but it does not stand still, it studies and develops. And we suck out the last of the Soviet bookmarks. Now China is lagging behind, but after 10 years I can’t presume to say that ... I was in China, this is a modern country where not a single piece of land is empty. If the village, then two-story houses with hangars. All these American fables about the concentration camp of clogged strabismus are nonsense. They have one misfortune - very high competition and expensive education. Because of this, most people are forced to work with their hands and live rather poorly (as we do on average). But they solve this problem.
    And in our country universities make paid ...
  49. Columbus
    Columbus 27 November 2013 23: 45
    +1
    Well done Chinese! I hope we will see this day when Soviet technology, even if copied by the Chinese (from this it does not cease to be Soviet), suffocates Europeans and Amateurs. Soviet technology in this way will avenge the death of our homeland of the USSR.