Landing on the armor. Why no one trusts domestic BTR?

400

“BMD-4 is a BMP-3 version, no protection, again everything is above, but it costs more tank. We didn’t look at this car, we don’t look at it ”
Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation Army General N.Ye. Makarov


What was and what came to

Thirty-fours are rushing on the frames of the military newsreel, ruddy submachine guns are sitting thick on the armor. In the most terrible heat and the most severe frost, the Soviet soldiers went into battle, leaning their shoulders to the tank's massive tower, despising the thought that at any second a stray German bullet would “knock off” them from the armor under the tracks of a madly racing car.

It was not possible to cover the Soviet soldiers with armor - the extremely loaded industry had no reserves for the release of armored personnel carriers. There was not even any concept of the use of such machines. Lend-lease deliveries failed to rectify the situation: for example, from 1200 American semi-tracked armored personnel carriers (М3, М5, М9), transferred in 1942, only 118 machines got into the mechanized units, the rest were used as artillery tractors. So our soldiers rode on armor right up to Berlin.
Landing on the armor. Why no one trusts domestic BTR?

The Cold War set new standards: for the breakthrough to the English Channel through the submerged * and burned by nuclear fire Europe, armored personnel carriers were created - tracked BTR-50P and later wheeled BTR-60. Terrible machines, which were not inferior in tank maneuverability, could overcome water obstacles by swimming, and reliably protected the crew from the damaging factors of nuclear weapons.

* A group of Soviet troops in Germany (GSVG), consisting of 5 combined arms, 4 tank and 3 air armies, was able to break through to the English Channel in a couple of weeks. According to one of the legends, NATO humanists have laid nuclear bombs under dams and dams in order to flood Europe’s floor in the event of a conflict and slow down the advancement of tank columns. By the way, strange concrete wells were actually found under bridges, forks, and hydraulic structures in Europe.

In 1966, the USSR once again surprised the world by creating a fundamentally new model of armored vehicles. The light tank was transformed into an infantry fighting vehicle — an extremely mobile floating armored vehicle for transporting personnel to the front line and conducting combat operations together with tanks.

Television footage chronicles. Caucasus. Our days. Another counter-terrorist operation - armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles rush along a broken highway, rosy OMON fighters are sitting thick on the armor. But let me, what the hell? Why are soldiers afraid to descend into the combat compartment of our armored vehicles, preferring to serve as targets for snipers?

The paratroopers equally do not trust the elderly BTR-70, nor the more recent BTR-80, nor even the modern BMP-3. The reason is simple and obvious - domestic armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles are in fact not armored vehicles. They can be categorized as you like - fire support vehicles, tracked high-terrain vehicles, excellent tractors or swimming equipment. But they do not and cannot, in principle, fulfill their Main Purpose. It makes no sense to expect high security from a large combat vehicle weighing just 10 - 15 tons.

The 7-mm sides of the BTR-80 armored personnel carrier hardly keep shots even with handguns. The DShK machine gun is guaranteed to penetrate such “armor” from a distance of half a kilometer. A similar result awaits the BMP-2 infantry combat vehicle: frontal armor, as thick as 16 mm, installed at a rational angle, will not protect the crew in case of a mine exploding or an RPG shot - quite “domestic” troubles in modern conflicts.

Soldiers prefer to sit astride armor, hoping that a bullet-fool will whistle past them than to be guaranteed to be killed in the fighting compartment in the event of a vehicle being blown up on the most primitive explosive device.

The creators of the BMP-3 stubbornly insist on the correctness of their approach and pay attention to the powerful armament of the machine: a combat module with a 100 mm semi-automatic gun and an automatic 30 mm caliber automatic gun coupled with it — a seemingly formidable force.

Alas, the extremely weak booking levels the remaining advantages of the BMP-3. Film shots with paratroopers riding on armor serve as a silent reproach to the designers - why should all the efforts be made if the soldiers are afraid to sit inside? Is it not easier then to cut off the roof altogether and weld more armor plates on the sides and bottom?

Until the first meeting with RPG

To avoid accusations of bias and non-patriotic sentiments, I suggest looking at foreign armored vehicles designed to transport personnel. There are similar problems: the main American armored personnel carrier M113, which sold around the world in 85 thousands of vehicles, had a thickness of aluminum armor in 40 mm - in the 60s it seemed sufficient to protect the crew from small arms bullets and artillery fragments. But with the evolution of anti-tank weapons and methods of fighting armored vehicles, American GIs are not in a hurry to get inside their armored vehicles - the red-hot cumulative jet breaks the M113 armor like a tin can opener, turning those sitting inside into a baked vinaigrette. No less disastrous for the well-being of the crew of the American armored personnel carrier is the impact of a mine blast: all those sitting inside will, at best, get off with a heavy contusion.

M113 in Lebanon. Any means are used to increase security.

This begs a simple question: why do we need such “armored vehicles” if they do not protect the crew from even the most primitive means of destruction? After all, a shot from an RPG or a queue of large-scale DShK is the simplest one to be encountered in modern combat. But what about, for example, an anti-tank missile system or an improvised high-explosive missile from a pair of three 152 mm fragmentation shells lying on the side? - Practice shows that such things are much more common than the creators of the armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles planned.
The shell of 16 mm steel, as well as of 44 mm aluminum armor, is powerless here. For reliable protection of the crew requires a radically different solution.

M113 in a heavy body kit. Temporary solution

An infantry fighting vehicle is no ordinary light tank. Inside it, by definition, must be a large number of personnel. And if the crew of a tank of three or four tankers requires protection similar to 500-1000 mm of homogeneous steel armor, what was the fault of the 10 man of the BMP crew who were asked to go into the thick under the cover of its “cardboard” walls?

Recently, a clear trend has emerged in foreign tank building to increase the protection of combat vehicles. Designers ruthlessly delete from the list any minor options: heavy weapons, air transportability, positive buoyancy - such moments, most often, are ignored. The main thing - to provide reliable protection of the combat vehicle. Indeed, why BMP any swimming skills, thermal imagers and guns, if on the modern battlefield, it can not crawl and meter?
In the continuation of this conversation, I propose to get acquainted with the most successful models of foreign armored vehicles that have the greatest security:

The most formidable. "Stridsfordon-90"

Combat weight 35 tons. Crew 3 people., Landing 8 people. Body armor: steel spaced armor + modular protection. Armament: 40 mm automatic gun "Bofors". Speed ​​up to 70 km / h. Produced from 1993, built more than 1000 machines.

The Swedish infantry fighting vehicle, according to the formal performance characteristics (gun caliber / mm of armor), is the undisputed leader in the BMP class. Firepower, booking, mobility. Multi-toned hinged passive armor sets provide the crew with a full range of protection against 30 mm projectiles, increasing the resistance of the BMP to ammunition from the upper hemisphere. There is an anti-splinter podboy combat compartment.

The BMP bottom mine protection protects the crew from explosions of explosive devices with power up to 10 kg of TNT. The assault force is placed in separate cushioned seats, which increases the chance of avoiding serious injuries when a mine is detonated.
Most of the machines are equipped with a Barracuda mobile camouflage system (IR and RL range) and an opto-electronic suppression system (equipment depends on the specific customer).

The most advanced export version of the CV-90 Mk.III is equipped with a bikaliber 30 / 50 mm automatic cannon with a modular ammunition programmer, as well as a SAAB UTAAS fire control system with day and night sights.
In addition to the base case, the command and staff vehicle, the BREM, self-propelled anti-aircraft gun and light tank destroyer with 90 mm guns are manufactured on the CV-120 BMP chassis.

Disadvantages of the machine in theory? CV-90 cannot swim.
Disadvantages of a car in practice? In 2009, in Afghanistan, the CV-90 BMP from the mechanized Telemark battalion of the Norwegian Armed Forces was undermined by a powerful self-made VU. The car was seriously damaged, the driver was killed. It turned out that all the measures taken are not enough to ensure the survival of the crew of infantry fighting vehicles in contemporary conflicts. Need something else.

Ultimate protection "Ahzarit"

Combat weight 44 tons. Crew 3 people., Landing 7 people. Body armor: steel homogeneous armor thickness up to 200 mm + hinged armor and dynamic protection. Armament: several 7,62 mm machine guns. Speed ​​up to 50 km / h. Produced from 1988, built around 500 machines.

Heavy tracked armored personnel carrier of the Israel Defense Forces. Life on the front line forced the Israelis to violate all the established canons of tank building, the military was tired of dying in the M113 armored personnel carriers from the first hit of a cumulative grenade. The original solution was the Akhazarit armored personnel carrier on the chassis of the Soviet T-55 tank.
The T-55 hull mass with the 27 tower removed is tons, the Ahzarit mass is 44 tons — a significant difference in 17 tons is due to the installation of an additional reservation. The 200 mm armor of the Soviet tank was reinforced with invoice steel and carbon fiber armor plates, and a dynamic protection kit was installed outside. All these factors, combined with the low silhouette of the armored car, allowed for an exceptionally high level of crew protection. In total, this upgrade has undergone about 500 T-54 / 55, captured from Arab countries.

In! Another conversation! - you say. This is not the 16 mm shell of the BMP-2. Where the corps of the domestic infantry fighting vehicle will burst along the welds from the blast wave, the Akhazrit armored personnel carrier will only get rid of with scratches.

To accomplish the task of transporting personnel, the internal layout of the T-55 also underwent changes: the Soviet engine was replaced with a more compact General Motors 8-cylinder diesel engine, which made it possible to equip a corridor along the starboard side of the armored personnel carrier leading from the troop compartment to the stern security door.

Armored personnel carriers "Ahzarit" preparing for the invasion of Gaza

The armored personnel carrier is equipped with a remote-controlled OWS (Overhead Weapon Station) machine-gun mount; a pair of 7,62-mm machine guns on the pivot bolts can be installed as additional weapons at the hatches on the roof of the hull. Also, as an embrasure for observing and covering the “dead zone” behind the machine, a slightly opened feed door can be used, which is a reclining ramp.

Disadvantages armored? The Akhzarit cannot swim at all. "Specialists" will certainly note the weakness of defensive weapons - just a few rifle-caliber machine guns. Heavy BTR will not fit in the cargo compartment of a military transport aircraft. It is more expensive to operate than conventional armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles.
But "Ahzarit" is not afraid of shots at the focus of any weapons that are in service with the militants of Hamas and Hezbollah. Small arms of all calibers, automatic cannons, single shots from anti-tank rocket launchers - all this is powerless against the Israeli Israeli 44-ton monster.

The idea of ​​the ultra-protected armored personnel carrier was so much liked by the military that the Israeli designers began to re-equip everything that came to their hands in heavy armored personnel carriers: the 50-ton BTR "Puma" based on the British tank "Centurion" or the super-BTR "Namer" based on the main battle tank " Merkava "Mk.4. Today, the 60-ton “Namer” is the most highly armored troop-carrier in the world.

Heavy BTR "Puma"


Heavy BTR "Timer" on trials in the US (2012 year)


Do you want scrambled eggs - break eggs

Of course, invulnerable technology does not happen - even the most "impenetrable" tanks are killed in battles. Each design has its own vulnerabilities - a case of penetration of the British Challenger-2, one of the best protected tanks in the world (the fatal grenade accidentally fell into the most weakened place) was registered from the RPG frontal armor detail.

12 June 2006 of the tank Merkava Mk.2 of the Alef company of the 82 battalion of the 7 armored brigade advanced to Lebanese territory with the task of occupying the dominant height in Ayta Hashab village. The task could not be completed - a land mine explosion, with a capacity of more than a ton of TNT, stopped the tank forever. The ammunition charge rushed, the detached tower sank into the withered ground at a distance of 100 meters from the tank hull, smaller fragments were later found in Israel. The crew died in full force: Alexey Kushnirsky, Gadi Mosaev, Shlomi Irmiyagu and Yaniv Bar-On.

Such cases can not serve as a reliable argument for assessing the protection of combat vehicles - modern technology is not able to effectively withstand such powerful explosive devices. Unfortunately, such "gifts of fate" are inevitable - despite all measures to improve security, the bloody harvest of war will surely require sacrifices.

Much more indicative is another plot that occurred in the same June 2006 - the main battle tank “Merkava” Mk.4 was blown up on a bomb, containing 300 kg of explosives. The explosion tore off the entire nose section together with the engine, and then three ATVM “Malyutka” were fired at the inverted tank. Result: out of seven people who were in the tank (crew, combat, staff officers), six survived.

Next to the tanks "Merkava" up the tracks is a heavy armored personnel carrier "Puma"

Now imagine in place of the Merkava Mk.4 the heavy armored vehicle “Namer” created on its base - there is every reason to believe that the survivability of the armored personnel carrier would be at least as good as the main battle tank. A simple question: what would happen if they were in their place the domestic BMP-3? However, it is clear that - a tragedy.

For guaranteed destruction of such monsters as “Ahzarit” or “Inner”, exceptional conditions are required - massive shelling by modern ATGMs or improbable explosive devices. Alas, for the defeat of the national armored vehicles designed to transport personnel, the most primitive means are enough - up to several shots from a heavy machine gun.

The positive experience of the Israel Defense Forces is being carefully studied all over the world. In the US, announced the start of work on a promising infantry fighting vehicle to replace the Bradley M2. The project called “Ground Combat Vehicle” (GCV) involves the creation of a super-heavy tracked BMP with a mass from 58 to 76 tons (64-84 “short” US tons). The idea of ​​the Americans is clear: the 10 man of the GCV crew requires no less protection than the 4 man of the crew of the M1 Abrams tank.

Direct comparison of the GCV with the German "Royal Tigers" and so on. "Vunderwafles" since the Second World War is incorrect. The fascists didn’t have the main thing - powerful enough engines, the strongest Maybach barely gave out 700 hp. Modern technologies allow you to create engines twice as powerful, coupled with a fairly efficient and reliable transmissions.

Impenetrable BMP Ground Combat Vehicle. Project

Heavy armored vehicles, similar to the GCV and Akhzarit, seem to be the most suitable means for future conflicts — such vehicles are effective for conducting combat operations both in open areas and in a dense urban area. The large mass of the GCV doesn’t worry too much about its creators - the weight and dimensions of the new BMP are generally consistent with the Abrams tank. The lack of buoyancy will have little effect on its mobility and combat effectiveness: infantry fighting vehicles rarely operate in isolation from tanks. And where are the tanks, there are always bridge laying and so on. Specialized equipment.

All other “advantages” of the promising American BMP (acoustic sensors of shots, thermal imagers, remotely controlled machine gun turrets) and “flaws” (frankly, poor aircraft transportability, negative buoyancy) fade against the background of the Main - ensuring high crew protection.

The Stryker family of American "light" armored vehicles should not be misleading - this technique is intended for low-intensity conflicts (Papuans and "police" operations) when the enemy’s use of powerful anti-tank weapons is unlikely. It is worth noting that the Stryker base 17-ton armored personnel carrier does not have a tower and any heavy weapons - all mass reserves went to armor protection (the most modern technologies, MEXAS mounted ceramic armor sets) - and, nevertheless, from Iraq comes the mass complaints about the poor security of the machine. The creators of "Stryker" clearly did not expect such a number of sophisticated anti-tank weapons, even in anti-terrorist operations.

Omsk armor

Work to improve the security of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles are carried out even in Russia. In 1997, the Omsk designers presented their own modernization of the T-55 tank - a heavy BTR-T armored personnel carrier. The car embodied the best features of the national tank school: the designers limited themselves to minimal changes in the combat compartment - the modernization of the tank did not affect its main components; unlike the Israeli vehicle, the BTR-T retained solid armament — instead of a standard turret, a new low-profile turret was installed with an 30 mm automatic rifle and the Konkurs anti-tank missile system. Of course, the military was not satisfied with some technical shortcomings of the first domestic heavy armored personnel carrier - for example, an unsuccessful landing through roof hatches. In principle, all the problems were completely solvable - unfortunately, the well-known economic and political events of those years did not allow us to refine and launch a useful machine into the series.

There are even more interesting projects in this promising direction - heavy armored vehicles BMPV-64 and BMT-72 have already been created in Ukraine (as you might guess, based on the T-64 and T-72 tanks). What development awaits armored vehicles next? Progress moves in a spiral - maybe there will be “inadequate” 100-ton monsters, which at the new round of historical development will be replaced again by light armored vehicles. And the infantry will continue to ride armor.

Heavy armored personnel carrier BTR-T
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  1. +4
    5 December 2012 09: 09
    Forgot to mention in the article BMO-T. Ours is also trying to create something like that, like the Ukrainians ....
    1. +7
      5 December 2012 10: 56
      I won’t say much, but the fact that the BMP-3 and BTR-80 must be changed, I think there is no doubt

      we are waiting for Kurganets and Boomerang-only the Moscow Region is constantly changing those tasks, it’s like they defended the project according to Boomerang — these are again not so change this and this sad

      I think in 2013 the first samples were born there and we'll talk
      the fact that Centauri and so on is definitely not appearing in our army

      in the meantime, there is a government contract for the supply of 300 BTR-82a to the army, here it is in the photo (personal archive)
      1. +30
        5 December 2012 12: 35
        The author can shake hands, thanks.
        I agree, the main defense of the landing.
        Afghanistan and Chechnya showed (our military conflicts) - there was no airborne landing of equipment or water overcoming obstacles (isolated cases, only confirmation of the rule).
        Once again - I completely agree with the author. soldier
        1. +7
          7 December 2012 13: 26
          Quote: Z.A.M.
          Afghanistan and Chechnya showed (our military conflicts) - there was neither airborne landing of equipment, nor water crossing of barriers


          I dare to object. the remnants of the reconnaissance 131 brigade on two infantry fighting vehicles leaving the formidable jumped into Sunzha and crossed to the other side, taking out the wounded.
          Moreover, without any preparation for overcoming. look in the archives of the red star for that year. a classmate commanded this platoon, and the special forces of the VV pulled them out on the other side. Served with this guy.
      2. bask
        +32
        5 December 2012 13: 31
        My bro sat on his tailbone for 1.5 years at the Airborne Forces in Afghanistan in the 80s. And he argued that it was the only way to be saved. 25 le went and Nehia didn’t change anything !!! One feast and promises of a brighter future in the year 15,20 .. And then if they don’t steal another time ... And where are the guarantees for this? ??? Warranties are mute. Yesterday, according to the info in the S. Caucasus, 250 units of new, new technology came out. Of all this rubbish that is supplied in line with modern requirements. This is T90 ms. Everything, the rest of the armored vehicles do not meet the TTZ for asymmetric warfare and mine protection .. If tomorrow is war or activation of militants, what should I do ???? The armored vehicles operated in the S. Caucasus do not meet modern requirements NOT ONE ONE OPTION ,,, . PROVE IF I DO NOT RIGHT. They will be honored by why our soldiers should not be ruined .... And all the power, in the course of this fuck ........
        1. beech
          +7
          5 December 2012 16: 24
          T90 ms
          - forced to disappoint you came t-90a !!
          1. Samovar
            +6
            5 December 2012 17: 57
            Quote: beech
            forced to disappoint you came t-90a

            I will disappoint you even more, but it was not the T-90, but the T-72. No.
      3. M. Peter
        +14
        5 December 2012 16: 16
        The Jews have a lot to learn. What do not you say, but the war in Israel almost before every dinner. Why don't we fill our bumps, which are already swollen to "I can't", and finally start learning.
        1. AK-47
          +15
          5 December 2012 20: 54
          Quote: M.Pyotr
          The Jews have a lot to learn. What do not you say, but the war in Israel almost before every dinner. Why don't we fill our bumps, which are already swollen to "I can't", and finally start learning.

          Just the Jews are thinking about peopleand not about the well-being of the defense industry.
          1. 0
            5 December 2012 22: 02
            Quote: AK-47
            not about the well-being of the defense industry.

            Controversial statement. It is much more profitable to produce heavy APCs than light ones. But here is just ours and yours. And more profitable and more secure.
          2. +5
            6 December 2012 00: 16
            AK-47
            They think no more than everywhere, they just beat us so often on the top of their head that we have to turn around.
          3. +7
            6 December 2012 11: 10
            Why do not they think about the well-being of their industry?! All the alterations were made in Israel itself. They take care of both the soldiers and support their defense. The right move.
          4. -1
            7 December 2012 20: 55
            They never forget about the military-industrial complex.
      4. beech
        +18
        5 December 2012 16: 22
        war is a loss, it is inevitable, of course it is necessary to take care that there are no unnecessary casualties, but mobility should not suffer !!! MB in Israel heavy BMPs is an option, but we have our own specifics - few bridges can withstand 30+ tons, dirt in Russia is usually eaten and a heavy BMP is unlikely to creep in. I believe that the BMP3, BMD4M and BTR82 in principle suit the Russian army, I hope the Kurgan. ... will become much better, but I would not want them to turn into all sorts of azarchites, although it is worth keeping several parts in reserve on armored vehicles!
        This is my personal opinion, I do not impose it on anyone, so please do not water the mud!
        1. -1
          6 December 2012 13: 56
          Well, photos of Merkava, dissecting through the mud, show again? Here the question is only in mass, but in specific pressure on the ground

          1. +1
            6 December 2012 15: 53
            that is yes. but it already depends more on the suspension, the correct distribution of mass and the actual area of ​​the tracks.
          2. +4
            8 December 2012 14: 37

            oh drowned even in the desert
            1. -1
              8 December 2012 17: 35
              Quote: Dmitry Desnyansky
              oh drowned even in the desert

              What a desert, this is the Golan Heights, this is a desert
              1. 0
                15 February 2014 19: 41
                The Golan Heights and the desert are synonyms.
          3. +2
            9 December 2012 18: 50
            in the sands of Merkava to land at the bottom therefore additional armor from below must be removed. So what? where is mine protection ???
            1. +1
              9 December 2012 20: 14
              Quote: slav4ikus
              in the sands of Merkava to land at the bottom therefore additional armor from below must be removed. So what? where is mine protection ???

              Something new. At such a pace, it will soon turn out that the merkava cannot even move along the road, the gun is bent and it has to be removed
      5. g1kk
        +9
        5 December 2012 21: 30
        The author is so tactfully silent that during the Lebanese war, Cornet punched all kinds of Merkav
        1. -8
          5 December 2012 22: 01
          The author is so tactfully silent that during the Lebanese war, Cornet punched all kinds of Merkav

          Every Cornet Released? Anyone got it? What about the Gaza Strip two years later? What about the Gaza Strip last year (KAZ and all that)?
        2. +5
          6 December 2012 18: 10
          g1kk

          No, the author tactfully hints that the Russian armored vehicles aren’t just cornet, they don’t hold RPG 7 and dshk. How many gangs can have cornets? and how many gangs have an RPG of 7 - there almost every 3 action movie with an RPG.
          1. g1kk
            +2
            8 December 2012 13: 32
            Then it is necessary to determine with whom our army should fight with bandorings or with high-tech armies. If it’s with gangs, then yes, you need to recognize yourself as a Babanova republic and hang up 70 tons of armor, if against modern countries (America, China) then the issue cannot be solved by any increase in armor, because war will be decided by technology and maneuver. Tell us how Israeli armored vehicles would help them, in the war against, say the United States, how would their tanks and armored personnel carriers withstand missiles from planes ?:
            1. -5
              8 December 2012 17: 39
              Quote: g1kk
              armored vehicles would help them in the war against say the USA

              But how can an armored vehicle withstand a hit from an airplane? Will leave? How and by what means was Russia going to fight the United States or China? Likely Russian tanks at Beijing, one of its kind will not allow China to fire nuclear weapons
              1. +1
                9 December 2012 17: 47
                Quote: Rumata
                How and by what means was Russia going to fight the United States or China?

                Do not worry, we already have experience. Think better of Iran.
          2. 0
            9 December 2012 18: 52
            from RPG 7 and yes you still have to hit a moving target! and reloading - and at the top for this the soldiers are sitting: watching blah for such idiots
        3. +5
          6 December 2012 19: 39
          Blown up by a land mine and struck by 3 "little" Merkava "babies", with a surviving crew ... This is the same unique as hitting the "Challenger" from the 1st hit on the forehead. Lucky, h ... ule?
      6. +2
        5 December 2012 23: 49
        counterterrorist operations require troops and equipment specially sharpened for these purposes
      7. 0
        15 February 2014 19: 37
        Kurganians and Boomerangs are bullshit. Here the planned heavy conveyor on the basis of Almaty is a thing!
  2. kapitan_21
    +9
    5 December 2012 09: 10
    The image labeled "M113 in" heavy attachment. Workaround "shows the FV432 Buuldog APC of the British Armed Forces! This modification of the FV432 was specially designed for warfare in Afghanistan!
    1. +7
      5 December 2012 09: 19
      Quote: kapitan_21
      The image labeled "M113 in" heavy body kit. Workaround "shows the FV432 Buuldog APC of the British Armed Forces!

      Thanks for the addition. Usually I don’t correct the original sources - the system gave exactly this to the request for "M113 with reinforced protection".

      ПС Very similar to М113. Rollers, the shape of the body - from this angle it is easy to confuse
  3. Brother Sarych
    +19
    5 December 2012 09: 17
    The author is clearly unevenly breathing heavily armored monsters! And I think this is a mistake ...
    The creation of such machines is justified only for a decent disposal of obsolete tanks - instead of putting a sufficiently powerful machine into remelting, it becomes possible to give it a second life ...
    Why are BMPs needed at all? Or is it a means of transport, or a support vehicle, but how to combine these so contradictory qualities?
    If we consider that it is necessary to transfer a lot of troops behind the tanks, and provide them with some kind of their own fire support, then our BMP concept was the best for that time, only then the time has passed and will not return ...
    Subsequently, infantry fighting vehicles showed their unsuitability for solving the problems that arose - escorting convoys was not good, and fighting in the city and standing at checkpoints ...
    Heavy vehicles are also not a panacea - it was in Israel that they mounted armor and set as their goal to deprive the Hamas troops of an RPG stock, and when the enemy’s grenade launchers run out, the infantry will come out and try to clear the terrain ...
    Well, they will achieve that they will bring in new, more powerful RPGs, they will have to hang up more armor, and so on until the monsters can move at least a little ...
    1. +20
      5 December 2012 09: 29
      Quote: Brother Sarich
      Heavy cars are not a panacea either - it was in Israel that they hung up their armor and set as their goal to deprive the Hamas troops of an RPG stock, and when the enemy’s grenade launchers run out, the infantry will come out and try to clear the area ...
      Well, they will achieve that they will bring new, more powerful RPGs, they will have to hang more armor


      Well, at least they should keep shots from the DShK!
      In the end, no one talks about 100% security - you need to provide protection at least from old RPGs. And this will be the result.
      1. beech
        +8
        5 December 2012 19: 25
        even abrams will not save from the good old RPG7, I’m silent about the strikers, BMPhekhs ...
        1. +1
          8 December 2012 17: 35
          How much armor you don’t hang is still cheaper, the PG-7 or ATGM will be modernized for an asymmetric response. And for counter-terrorist operations in the Caucasus, we need such cars as Israel or our BMO-T as an example. Moreover, now there are so many extra tanks after reductions in The CBRT has accumulated.
          1. 0
            8 December 2012 18: 46
            why everyone forgets about active defense, for example, "Arena", you don't need to create a 70 ton monster, and the thickness of the armor will not solve anything, the means of destruction always overtake
          2. irony
            -1
            9 December 2012 21: 57
            I think that if ours had heavy armored personnel carriers, the "Czechs" would put "ton" landmines. And what would the critics of our armored vehicles write then? What are the heavy, clumsy monsters built?
    2. Fox
      +12
      5 December 2012 09: 30
      the author breathes unevenly towards Jewish technology, not really understanding FOR WHAT TASKS this or that technique was created. Now many "istorehof" spit on T34 that he was weak in the fight against tigers, not realizing that T34 is intended to support the infantry ... there was an order from I. Stalin on how to fight on t 34 as well here.
      1. +2
        5 December 2012 18: 35
        Quote: Fox
        Jewish technology, not really understanding WHAT TASKS this or that technique was created


        The heavy armored personnel carriers "Akhzarit" and "Namer" were created for the conditions of war with a numerous and well-equipped enemy, whose troops are extremely saturated with anti-tank weapons.

        And the climate of Israel has nothing to do with it
        1. g1kk
          +4
          5 December 2012 21: 33
          Will you tell me how they would ride along the thaw in early March-April of central Russia?
          1. +7
            5 December 2012 23: 07
            Quote: g1kk
            Will you tell me how they would ride along the thaw in early March-April of central Russia?

            In such an example?
            1. Suvorov000
              +11
              6 December 2012 13: 08
              it’s a kindergarten in the sandbox, they’re chasing after a puddle, you don’t seem to see what real thaw is, and for fun, ask mehans how to fight in Chechnya in the spring and autumn. It’s not correct to compare the hazbol and the Israeli army, some are fighting what they’re using the latest technologies. You don’t need to compare a tank and armored personnel carriers or infantry fighting vehicles, these are two different things, the author has left the wrong subject at the end of the article. Yes, the equipment is outdated and a different approach to solving this problem needs to be applied, weighing up with protection is not a panacea for maneuver, there is no speed and then it’s enough to bring the chassis and all the equipment to games, well, people are safe, I don’t argue only who will perform the task, then all these games good in their small territories
              1. +5
                6 December 2012 14: 18
                With this attitude, even if you show you Merkava on the tower in the mud, riding, you say - garbage. In Israel, it is worth noting that from 4 to 5 months is the winter season. With rains, skirting, wet snow, mud on the chest and so on.
              2. +2
                6 December 2012 18: 37
                Quote: Suvorov000
                it is fighting in Chechnya in spring and autumn.

                You absolutely do not know what winter is in Israel, and how the Hezbollah militants are equipped. For example, Chechen separatists are smoking peacefully on the sidelines, so there is no need to go too far.
                1. +1
                  6 December 2012 19: 44
                  you know??? Are you lord god ???
            2. g1kk
              +1
              8 December 2012 13: 36
              You do not understand what it is about. What you presented in the photo is no more. than water poured on the ground. See for yourself, it’s water there, to introduce the slutter, watch films about the Second World War or at least video from Siberia. Slag is not water, it is hard mud, the tank doesn’t go there, it just drills and that’s it, right there it’s fun dispersing the water in front of it
              1. 0
                8 December 2012 17: 45
                Quote: g1kk
                Slag is not water, it is hard mud, the tank doesn’t go there, it just drills and that’s it, right there it’s fun dispersing the water in front of it

                And here it is, for the umpteenth time they write that the merkava is suitable only for the desert, it does not go into the snow and dirt. If there is two meters of mud in the mud, no tank will pass, and the specific pressure of the merkava is not much higher than that of its Russian counterparts, I do not think that the difference between 0.97 and 0.85 in the T-80 will reduce patency by as much. If Merkava gets stuck in the tower, then most likely the same thing will happen with Teshka. Of course, Russian tanks have higher cross-country ability, but there’s no need to go too far about the mud, the same bridges are a big problem
                1. 0
                  15 February 2014 20: 13
                  And also rail transportation. Even the relatively easy Abrams to transport on the platform is not a trivial task. Can you imagine how troublesome it is to carry Ahzarit or Namer?
              2. +5
                8 December 2012 17: 47
                Quote: g1kk
                Slag is not water, it is hard mud, the tank doesn’t go there, it just drills and that’s it, right there it’s fun dispersing the water in front of it

                And this is in our Transbaikalia on the Tsugol training ground. The concrete is mixed.
        2. bart74
          +3
          6 December 2012 00: 19
          It's not that you are talking about, but they also ran into nat discussions. BTR and BMP is an armored fist of infantry and motorized rifle troops. It’s like in ancient times - heavy infantry. For a blitzkrieg, it’s too simple, for local operations, and special campaigns are just that!
          1. +2
            6 December 2012 02: 08
            The armored fist is tank troops in general.
          2. +1
            8 December 2012 17: 51
            Front view: They pulled him out, and Merkava would also be tortured to pull out.
            1. 0
              8 December 2012 20: 27
              Quote: ramzes1776
              Front view: They pulled him out, and Merkava would also be tortured to pull out.

              Whether they would have pulled out or not, this is another question, I remind you that the Merkava has a more powerful engine and there is always a D-9 nearby, which will pull out a tank of 100 tons if necessary.
              I mean, in the photo above, the dirt to the tower is a situation in which any tank would be stuck without options.
              1. 0
                15 February 2014 20: 15
                Tank and armored personnel carriers are not synonyms!
        3. majorlnb
          +15
          6 December 2012 01: 47
          Israeli technology was created for the conditions of their theater. Hence the high rates for the protection of crews. God forbid, in our conditions, that's all. Any bridge with a carrying capacity of less than 40 tons will cut off infantry from the BMP, and how many rivers with bridges with us are up to 20 tons?

          BMP and armored personnel carriers are needed precisely as infantry delivery and support vehicles. There is a completely different technique for patrolling and breaking through. Losses in Afghanistan and Chechnya due to the fact that the equipment was used thoughtlessly. The columns were driven without cover and intelligence. Patrolling was carried out at random ...
          1. +2
            6 December 2012 23: 56
            majorlnb. I completely agree I wanted to express the same idea, but I read your comment and did not repeat myself.
          2. terp 50
            -2
            10 December 2012 14: 45
            ,, BMP and armored personnel carriers are needed precisely as vehicles for the delivery and support of infantry. There is a completely different technique for patrolling and breaking through. Losses in Afghanistan and Chechnya due to the fact that the equipment was used thoughtlessly. The columns were driven without cover and intelligence. Patrolling was carried out at random ... ,,





            ... WHEN IT WILL BE?...
            That in the army, that in the civilian - everything is the same! an order (raspoyazhenie) received? - forward, which is not - your problems. Show the soldier (working) ingenuity.
            The Israelis appreciate the crew - they created "Merkava", and we have the equipment - the people in Russia in bulk, and not enough, so I’ll give birth to women.
          3. 0
            30 January 2018 16: 55
            Quote: majorlnb
            Losses in Afghanistan and Chechnya due to the fact that the technology was used thoughtlessly

            the mess with the database must be laid in the principle of design © max702
    3. PiP
      +16
      5 December 2012 11: 32
      BMP and armored personnel carriers should be universal with us at least. If we take into account Israel with a constant climate in the area of ​​hostilities, then it is possible to do not floating and heavily armored vehicles. And we have deserts (steppes) and forests and rivers and seas, and the weather changes twice a day, so there should be universality "in peace and in a feast." In my opinion, the main task of armored vehicles is fire support, and protection should be compensated for by mobility / mobility. And probably the main thing is why the "landing on the armor" is probably due to the fact that in a cretic situation (which is expected) while moving (usually as part of a column), quickly leave (without getting out of the hatches and doors in turn) the target and take up defense.
      1. +18
        5 December 2012 12: 30
        Quote: PiP
        And probably the main thing is why the "landing on the armor" is probably due to the fact that in a cretic situation (which is expected) while moving (usually as part of a column), quickly leave (without getting out of the hatches and doors in turn) the target and take up defense.
        PIP, I fully support. Any column is vulnerable, no matter what armor you make. The same "Merkavas" and heavy armored personnel carriers on a serpentine, trapped in the mountains, will be blown up and shot. You are right, Israel's climate is specific, the Israelis have adapted heavy equipment to their conditions, in a different environment, the pluses may turn out to be minuses. Diverse technology solves various problems, it is impossible to create a universal monster for everything without creating a semblance of a Nazi "Mouse".
        1. bask
          +4
          5 December 2012 13: 45
          What can now be done in the Moscow Region in an emergency, without attracting large financial resources. 1- There is a developed and tested BTR-90, it’s better until the age of 20 that there will not be an urgent resumption of its production of 500 pieces and everything in the Caucasus ... 2- GSH GM 123 ,, mine defense system, self-propelled guns, action, geocint, , Masa GSH 27 tons. Load capacity 12 tons. These 12 tons need to be installed additional reservation. Armament remote 12,7 ,, Cord ,, and AGS ,, Flame ,, MTO at GM 123 in the nose .. Aft entrance. Minimum modification and 8-10 soldiers will be able to transport under cover of armor ... we live in the 21st century ...
          1. +9
            5 December 2012 18: 28
            It would be a desire, bask, it’s strange that you didn’t think about converting the T-72 into a BMPT for the aforementioned North Caucasus. In the "police" version, you can remove anti-tank containers by adding a screen, as the Germans did on the T-III and T-IV turrets, increasing the protection of the BMPT rifle complex. I don’t know why, we didn’t bother to run the car in real conditions, ask the special forces for feedback. Surely, they would say thank you for the soldiers' lives saved with her help. As for the 34st century and covering soldiers with armor ... There is a small nuance that you won't notice in the article right away, Soviet soldiers on T-XNUMX armor, rushing into the attack, and modernity, also on armor, but this is already a column. No need, sorry, dick to be confused with a finger, no one is going to attack on armor like this, but about the column, its vulnerability during an ambush, with detonation and shelling, it is well said above by PiP. In Afghanistan, the spirits blocked the column in the gorge, and beat them almost from above on the cars, like in a shooting range, where the Shilka was sometimes more needed than a tank. Domestic armored personnel carrier, a good car, if used for its intended purpose.
            1. bask
              +4
              5 December 2012 21: 02
              Per se I agree with you BMPT ,, Object 199 ,,, Frame ,, This is the missing link between tanks and BMP-T. Armament like ZSU ,, Shilka ,, 23mm guns .. The kit is not an option of 5000 thousand pieces. Here they are must accompany the columns and be in combat guard., columns, It is their job to destroy grenade launchers, snipers, machine gunners ... Equipment is appropriate: .. shot sensors, thermal imagers, etc. .....
        2. Consmo
          +6
          5 December 2012 23: 17
          I agree. One of the photos shows how one car tumbled. Merkava will follow, it’s seen how the crew is evacuated (such as ueb ... t) and this is Israel with dense soil. The best defense is when the crew sits in a bar in New York, Tel Aviv, or Moscow and sips something from a glass.
          Then comes the defense, a pair of concrete blocks 2400x600x400 mm near and up and around. And the crew drives backgammon. It’s good to add a Night / Day auto scan camera with optics with a zoom of up to 40 times and a 32-inch telecom to this machine. The whole set will cost 100000 rubles. Well, a little more with the generator. Now there are a lot of such in video surveillance systems. The camera scans around the circumference, sometimes stopping and looking at the maximum approximation, let the bushes in the ravine opposite.
          Well, if you need to go, be prepared that you will be killed in any situation, not a mine like RPG or like a Molotov cocktail with a mixture.
          All Israel’s advertising (technology) is for the Zulus. They stand in front of the settlements and mock at them. They will go in and be with them kirdyk like Allah is great.
      2. griha988
        +1
        5 December 2012 20: 26
        I think our new concept (Kurgan, boomerang) with medium-weight machines with sufficient mobility and the possibility of hanging ceramic plates for our conditions just right
        1. 0
          30 January 2018 21: 53
          Quote: griha988
          our new concept (kurgan, boomerang)

          - Is it true that Rabinovich won the Volga in the lottery?
          - That's right. Only not Rabinovich, but Ivanov. And not the Volga, but a hundred rubles. And not to the lottery, but to the cards. And did not win, but lost.
          And so this is a new concept of the USA and NATO, nothing new, even the price is similar with amendments to the budget.
      3. 0
        6 December 2012 14: 20
        Israel has 17 climatic zones and rivers that spill over into the winter. Floods are a fairly regular thing.
        1. 0
          15 February 2014 20: 21
          The rivers in Israel are a myth. Some still believe.
      4. 0
        15 February 2014 20: 18
        And it’s not an armored personnel carrier — fighting on the front lines — there are tanks and aircraft for that. And after our tanks, there’s not much left on the battlefield.
    4. 0
      5 December 2012 18: 47
      but the crew is alive, but for our RPGs it’s not necessary, dshk decides ..
      1. beech
        +5
        5 December 2012 19: 27
        Well, let's all ride in the tank .. although stop .. RPGeshki penetrate !!!
    5. +6
      5 December 2012 19: 12
      These "monsters" run like our BMPs, or even faster. I believe the author is right. The armor should not be a tin can and cover the bottom from mines more or less reliably.
    6. +4
      5 December 2012 19: 47
      Each technique serves for specific purposes: for police operations, just btr82 is enough; heavy armored personnel carriers capable of escorting tanks are better suited for war; for reconnaissance, landing and other pranks - BMP3.
      1. 0
        8 December 2012 17: 54
        Quote: d.gksueyjd
        Each technique serves a specific purpose: for police operations, just btr82 is enough

        It depends on what operation and what the bandits are armed with.
    7. -3
      7 December 2012 21: 19
      Well, I think we need to proceed from the fact that since BMPs operate in the same formation with tanks, then their protection should be comparable.
      1. 0
        17 December 2012 19: 13
        they do not operate in the same ranks with tanks! this is a support machine
    8. 0
      9 December 2012 18: 58
      offset! DO NOT OFF! the author and many here do not whip the main chip6 BMP and armored personnel carriers created not intended to replace the tank on the battlefield, but for quick- I emphasize the FAST DELIVERY of infantry to the right place on the battlefield, etc., as well as for fire support if necessary! and during the battle they are on firing positions to enter the battle as necessary. citizens like this: read the combat charter blah children at home 2. otherwise the armor of the gun broke.
  4. 0
    5 December 2012 09: 25
    By the way, strange concrete wells were indeed discovered under bridges, forked roads and hydraulic structures in Europe.

    In peaceful Switzerland, many bridges are still mined.
    1. 0
      5 December 2012 10: 49
      Well, as if not only them)))
      But there, basically, explosives were not installed, but special places were prepared.
      1. -1
        5 December 2012 14: 29
        Under the autobahns laid pipelines. In peacetime, they let gas, gas, whatever. And in wartime, they are filled with liquid explosives and exploded. Instead of a freeway ditch. Neither tanks can pass normally, and using the runway the same will fail.
        1. Leonid
          +2
          5 December 2012 21: 54
          Do you happen to write not after watching science fiction? Send a link to this info! Help: The bed under the German autobahns (i.e. the construction excavation) reaches more than 1,2 meters! And under a dense road at least Oh, 7 meters of concrete!
          1. 0
            6 December 2012 14: 00
            Quote: Leonid
            You accidentally wrote a post after watching fiction? Send a link to this info!

            I read about it in the journal "Foreign Military Review" somewhere in the pre-perestroika time, unfortunately I cannot give more accurate information.
            1. 0
              30 January 2018 21: 58
              Quote: igordok
              I read about it in the magazine

              The magazine scrapped the author for execution for idiocy, these pipes are needed for thermal insulation and sometimes for the removal of moisture, in total we get less internal damage due to moisture and frost.
        2. +4
          6 December 2012 16: 56
          And here, under all the avenues, a heating plant has been built - there’s no need to let explosives go either - they’ve given more pressure and the enemy will drown in boiling water -
        3. -1
          15 February 2014 20: 24
          Our engineers went even further - on our roads even in peacetime you don’t really train (published as a joke).
    2. bart74
      0
      6 December 2012 00: 12
      And Switzerland has never been peaceful. Do you know where the world backstage is going? That's right - DAVOS! And which country was Hitler afraid to attack? That's right - SWITZERLAND! You there? YES! then say hello to the Rothschilds!
      stsuki we are going to you!
      1. 0
        6 December 2012 10: 50
        We will be soon :)
        1. 0
          6 December 2012 16: 57
          serjant4- Does he masturbate everyone with a mast? laughing
  5. Samovar
    +26
    5 December 2012 09: 52
    The DShK machine gun is guaranteed to penetrate such "armor" from a distance of half a kilometer.

    Well, let's start with the fact that armored personnel carriers are armored buses for infantry (I exaggerate). Their task is to deliver motorized infantry to the battlefield and quickly retreat. An armored personnel carrier should not go with it in an attack, BMPs are intended for this. Now about them:
    A similar result is expected by the BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicle: frontal armor as thick as 16 mm, set at a rational angle, will not protect the crew in the event of a mine explosion or from an RPG shot - completely “everyday” troubles in modern conflicts

    The main trouble of our infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers is that they were imprisoned only for a full-scale war with a developed army (NATO by default) and were supposed to operate mainly in the field in close cooperation with tanks and motorized infantry (and, of course, during clearance). According to the combat charter of the Army, infantry fighting vehicles can move behind a chain of dismounted infantry at a distance of 300 m, or in a chain. And she hurries to the infantry at a distance of 600 or less meters from the front edge of the enemy’s defense.
    So summing up the above distances (600-900 m) - is it really possible to get from such distances from an RPG or a machine gun into a car and is it worth it if the tanks and its motorized infantry are still moving in front of it?
    In general, for local conflicts, WHO needs a BTT with a higher level of security, but certainly not 70 tons of a wunderwafer. This is already too much ... negative
    1. Footmansur86
      +4
      5 December 2012 10: 59
      Quote: Samovar
      An armored personnel carrier should not go with it in an attack, BMPs are intended for this

      You’re wrong here, and armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles deliver infantry to the battlefield and carry out fire support, but unlike infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers have infantry escort mode (special transmission), armored personnel carriers are in service with the Ministry of Internal Affairs and only use them in special operations like this that the armored personnel carrier also goes to battle)
      1. Samovar
        +2
        5 December 2012 11: 15
        Quote: Footmansur86
        during special operations, only they are used so that the armored personnel carrier also goes to battle

        It is one thing when 2-3 militants with machine guns are smoked out of the house and quite another when there are much more of them and they are holding a prepared defense with more solid weapons. As armored personnel carriers in Grozny more than enough evidence went to such fights. So they can support infantry with fire in the absence or small number of anti-tank weapons from the enemy.
        1. Footmansur86
          +4
          5 December 2012 11: 26
          No, the direct-fire range of the KPVT is 800m, and the aiming range of 2000m, so the main caliber of the APCs is quite solid, landed infantry and watered from the KPVT; there is fire support, and almost any BMP and armored personnel carrier of a potential enemy is afraid of its shots
          1. Samovar
            +4
            5 December 2012 12: 30
            Quote: Footmansur86
            No, the direct-fire range of the KPVT is 800m, and the aiming range of 2000m, so the main caliber of the APCs is quite solid, landed infantry and watered from the KPVT; there is fire support

            Far from always the armored personnel carrier has the ability to fire at such a distance. Moreover, if we talk about armored personnel carriers as a machine for local wars and anti-terrorist operations, which use mainly guerrilla tactics of combat (sudden attacks with firing at close range, mine war, etc.), then our today's armored personnel carriers have insufficient protection against IEDs and mines, as well as heavy machine guns. Fire with armored personnel carriers and accompanying infantry opens from a distance of usually 200-300 m, i.e. effective range of application of DShK and RPG, and even closer.
            almost any infantry fighting vehicle and armored personnel carrier are afraid of its shots

            Yes, afraid, but only if it is at a distance closer than 500 meters.
            1. Footmansur86
              +5
              5 December 2012 14: 15
              Let's just say that the BTR-60,70,80, 90 and XNUMX were not designed for local wars and partisans, and I go to a local war school as a separate topic; the rest is tactics and methods of conducting large-scale military operations.

              As if in the technical specifications and infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers it is indicated that the armor is bulletproof, so in principle it should not even hold the simplest anti-tank weapons.

              Open BUSV it is now available without problems, the role of infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers in modern combat is clearly visible there.

              You call the distances unsubstantiated, so it’s from head to eye, since the terrain conditions are different, so an armored personnel carrier located on a high-rise can not do any good work, at the same time it can be driven out to the intersection with the landing inside and get a couple of hits from RPGs or line with DShK.
              1. Samovar
                0
                5 December 2012 15: 29
                Quote: Footmansur86
                Let's just say that BTR-60,70,80, 90 and XNUMX were not designed for local wars and partisans

                As required. Yes
                Quote: Footmansur86
                As if in the technical specifications and infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers it is indicated that the armor is bulletproof, so in principle it should not even hold the simplest anti-tank weapons

                The time for such armor has already passed.
                Quote: Footmansur86
                You call distances not confirmed by anything, so from head to eye

                From the head you say ...
                3rd chapter of the BUSW Offensive.
                005The infantry fighting vehicle (armored personnel carrier) operates behind the separation chain up to 300 m, on its flank or directly in the chain.
                006The dismounting line (for branches - the place of dismounting) is assigned as
                can be closer to the front line of the enemy’s defense, usually in places sheltered from the fire of his machine guns and anti-tank melee weapons. Sometimes it can coincide with the border of the transition to the attack and be in front or at a greater distance.

                He can be assigned to
                removal up to 600 m from the front edge of the enemy’s defense, and sometimes more.
                1. Footmansur86
                  +2
                  5 December 2012 15: 41
                  Quote: Samovar
                  Fire on armored personnel carriers and accompanying infantry opens from a distance of usually 200-300 m
                  And where is it indicated?

                  Quote: Samovar
                  The time for such armor has already passed.

                  You are mistaken, for Russia the main thing is the European theater of war, and not the mountainous woodland of the Caucasus or Avgan.

                  Quote: Samovar
                  006 The dismounting line (for branches - the place of dismounting) is assigned as
                  can be closer to the front line of the enemy’s defense, usually in places sheltered from the fire of his machine guns and anti-tank melee weapons. Sometimes it can coincide with the border of the transition to the attack and be in front or at a greater distance.

                  He himself answered, it is not necessary to increase the armor, but it is necessary to build up the brain and use the terrain and do not forget to take the main blow at the tanks, so that the bulk of the regular anti-aircraft weapons and firing points will be suppressed.
                  Well, do not forget the artillery.
                  1. Samovar
                    +1
                    5 December 2012 16: 13
                    Quote: Footmansur86
                    And where is it indicated

                    Well, you're weird though. What does "where indicated" mean? Afghan, Chechnya, Ossetia (storms of Grozny, ambushes at Yaryshmardy and Serzhen-Yurt, Tskhinvali, etc.)
                    Quote: Footmansur86
                    You are mistaken, for Russia the main thing is the European theater of war, and not the mountainous woodland

                    I don’t understand where is the armor and the theater. Armored vehicles should protect fighters equally well in any type of armed conflict and on any theater of operations.
                    Quote: Footmansur86
                    you don’t need to increase armor, but you need to build up your brain and use the terrain and don’t forget the tanks take the brunt, so that the bulk of regular anti-aircraft weapons and fire points will be suppressed.
                    Well, do not forget the artillery.

                    Here you know if you want, if you don’t want, you will have to, because the main number of infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers with bulletproof armor in a modern war are just tin cans.
                    Offensives with tanks and artillery / aviation are most likely in the event of a full-scale war, rather than a local one.
                    1. Footmansur86
                      +3
                      5 December 2012 16: 35
                      Quote: Samovar
                      Offensives with tanks and artillery / aviation are most likely in the event of a full-scale war, rather than a local one.

                      Why, then, do you give an example of a military combat charter written for a large-scale war ??
                      And in Chechnya and Avgan, the main losses were from landmines and mines, as well as in cities and difficult terrain.
                      TO; For example, in the lowlands of Chechnya, militants were defeated very quickly and without any chance of success on their part.
                      1. Samovar
                        -1
                        5 December 2012 16: 50
                        Quote: Footmansur86
                        Why, then, do you cite as an example the military combat charter written for a large-scale war?

                        Well, maybe because our infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers
                        were sharpened only for a full-scale war with a developed army

                        Quote: Footmansur86
                        And in Chechnya and Avgan, the main losses were from landmines and mines, as well as in cities and difficult terrain

                        You asked for examples of local war fights, I brought them to you. What other questions?
                        Quote: Footmansur86
                        TO; example in the lowland part of Chechnya, militants were defeated very quickly

                        There, by the way, chain attacks were used as according to the Charter, and quite successfully, since the terrain allowed.
                      2. Footmansur86
                        +5
                        5 December 2012 17: 06
                        As you measured a major war through a local prism, you are measuring it, what else can I say.
                        At present, anti-IFVs and armored personnel carriers use PTS under the onslaught of which neither our tanks nor foreign can stand, which can be said about lightly armored vehicles if they cannot protect the tank.
                        A tank armor on light vehicles will drag the economy into a hole, all armies need a cheap, fast means of delivery of infantry to the battlefield.
                        P.S. Do not look at Israel; they are doing equipment for their conditions and tasks, and not for the countries of Europe.
                      3. Samovar
                        0
                        5 December 2012 18: 01
                        Quote: Footmansur86
                        A tank armor on light vehicles will drag the economy into a hole, all armies need a cheap, fast means of delivery of infantry to the battlefield.

                        Modular Booking - Fertstein? Es east gut?
                        Quote: Footmansur86
                        Do not look at Israel

                        And in his thoughts was not.
                      4. Karish
                        +7
                        5 December 2012 21: 48
                        Quote: Footmansur86
                        P.S. Do not look at Israel; they are doing equipment for their conditions and tasks, and not for European countries

                        Well, Russia is somehow more fighting on its territory and in the urban (built-up) area, moreover. No need to chase versatility. What prevents the release of 200-300 heavy infantry fighting vehicles for specific tasks, and the remaining 20000 for the war in Europe?
                        The soldiers are dying in Transcaucasia and as it seems to me. with such a development of events. until the first soldier dies in the war with Europe, hundreds die in Dagestan and Chechnya. Why leave these unfortunate people without proper protection?
                      5. 0
                        5 December 2012 21: 55
                        It will be like with the T-90, it seems like they already exist, but as it was impatient, the T-72 and even medium tanks went into battle. It’s worthless that somewhere in the superfood of the demonstration Kantemir division there will be heavy armored personnel carriers, in the 51st army there will be BTR-80 and BMP-2. Something like that.
                      6. +2
                        6 December 2012 14: 22
                        That's right. For some reason, in Russia everyone wants a universal child prodigy, and they don’t understand that different machines need different machines.
                      7. 0
                        15 February 2014 21: 57
                        And for different conditions! Russia is extremely rich in climatic conditions, great variety of terrain ... Therefore, armored vehicles must be more flexible to adapt to these factors - the steppe conveyor and taiga - are not synonyms!
        2. +8
          6 December 2012 10: 48
          Some kind of nonsense, armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles have one purpose: the rapid deployment of troops and support by fire, you can find out more about this in the Soviet training manual on the use of light armored vehicles, even in the city you can successfully use it, the presence of radio communications and front flank escort units, and all this talk about heavy infantry fighting vehicles is a fact that you initially rely on a weak enemy, and 152mm HE is mine ... er its weight, the trucks will fly off unambiguously, and after they finish it do not hesitate, in 96 I personally saw 72 as a HE mine undermined, tr the ki with the skating rinks flew away, although the armor could withstand, but after three Czechs with RPGs immediately got out of greens, they burned, the crew died and still do not forget about the weight, I was always surprised on this site by discussing tanks by those who did not even serve urgent, weight more 50 tons are guaranteed to drive a car into the ground if there is a wet road and you will wait until the rain passes, at 1984 in a tank school, on our relocation in the rain, and 26 T-55 there were 18 cars on the belly, with its mass 37 tons and horseradish than pull it out when he’s on his belly, and here’s the tractor waiting for it to dry, I’ve also buried myself, I agree that the defense should be, but it should be in proper application and excellent training, and not in the dumb build-up of armor, the Germans have already embarked on this path, you know the result, and you have more chances for an APC slip past than on a heavy infantry fighting vehicle.
          1. 0
            6 December 2012 19: 00
            Quote: Saburov
            the Germans have already embarked on this path, you know the result, I hope
          2. 0
            15 February 2014 22: 11
            And besides, the combat capabilities of the BMP should not be underestimated. It will be remembered when the BMP-2 passed state tests, there were firing. So, after the line, the target tank completely lost its combat readiness - even the machine gun flew off 15 meters, other devices were also in the trash.
      2. 0
        15 February 2014 20: 28
        But this use is not for its intended purpose. Any manufacturer is so directly in the instructions and declares that this deprives the warranty.
    2. Oidsoldier
      +1
      5 December 2012 11: 41
      I will add that the BMP should be moving using the terrain from cover to cover (according to the BUS).
      1. +2
        5 December 2012 19: 19
        Believe me, the theory is VERY far from real life. And BUSV including, especially in the case of the North Caucasus, when the fighters and commanders do not understand why they should die there, when after the end of the DB they are "fouled" by their own power, and their enemies just won't kiss in the ass.
    3. Town Guard
      0
      5 December 2012 13: 45
      Quote: Samovar
      In general, for local conflicts, WHO needs a BTT with a higher level of security, but certainly not 70 tons of a wunderwafer.

      The thought came to my mind - why spend metal on a 70 ton machine, if KAZ can be used? there is a problem - will there be more powerful RPGs - will they hang armor again? And how many tons will the car weigh? It is not for nothing that Trophy began to be used in Israel, instead of hanging armor on the Mk4 merkava to bring it up to 80 tons.
      1. -2
        5 December 2012 14: 44
        KAZ, but against IEDs and DShK?
        1. Town Guard
          +2
          5 December 2012 21: 06
          Against the DShK - even on board - it’s not necessary to make a car weighing 70 tons. All the same, I can’t take the creators of Trophy so foolish. It’s not about completely abandoning the reservation, but my idea was that further mounting of the reservation without KAZ would lead to weight gain up to 80 tons. At the same time, efficiency will be in doubt. Moreover, according to recent studies, KAZs can bring down even BPSs.
          Against IEDs, the matter is more complicated here, but again, making a v-shaped bottom for tanks is not as easy as for wheeled armored personnel carriers, therefore, if you have money, it is better to introduce an IED suppression device. (Some can be suppressed, for example, with radio control).
    4. +1
      8 December 2012 17: 59
      Quote: Samovar
      Well, let's start with the fact that armored personnel carriers are armored buses for infantry (I exaggerate). Their task is to deliver motorized infantry to the battlefield and quickly retreat. An armored personnel carrier should not go with it in an attack, BMPs are intended for this

      We had the entire motor-shooting division on the BTR-70.
    5. terp 50
      +1
      10 December 2012 15: 00
      ... and, what, in a full-scale war they no longer shoot machine guns? Our KPVT, which is an armored personnel carrier, is sewing BMP from side to side, And it is necessary to land infantry 600 - 900 meters before the troop, so it will remain ALL there.
  6. kov
    kov
    +4
    5 December 2012 10: 03
    As for the Puma, of course it has protection not like that of a tank, but it was made for the convenience and survivability of the landing.

    1. terp 50
      0
      10 December 2012 15: 19
      ... yeah - ushsh ... Everything is done for the people. Not like ours - for soldiers. Mb there is (?) hope, and will we (somewhere, someday) have this? Or not?
  7. +19
    5 December 2012 10: 06
    I also always with a mixed sense of pride, pity and perplexity for more than 30 years look at the pictures of the departure of our valiant motorized infantry, airborne troops and internal troops on a combat mission.
    Like hens on a perch they sit on an armored personnel carrier and infantry fighting vehicles and God forbid this * chicken coop * run into an ambush. But according to the design and purpose of the armored vehicles, everything should be exactly the opposite. They should not sit on the armor, but in the armor, which should protect them from the primary and secondary damaging factors of various weapons, including nuclear. The explanation is equally valiant for the infantry and equally shameful for manufacturers and designers of armored vehicles. The infantry prefers a glorious death from a bullet or a fragment of painful death from barotrauma, and manufacturers and designers will not see the problem for more than 30 years that when hitting even a small mine mine, all the crew and the landing force (if it is inside) are painfully killed by barotrauma. However, last year, some fat uncle from one of our leading machine plants solemnly uttered that in the 12 year they POSSIBLE STARTED to develop a new BMP with elements of mine protection. Well, directly Christ (forgive me for blasphemy), 30 years and 3 years, this fat uncle needed to understand the problem and begin salvation. Of course, warriors and gunsmiths often do not find a common language and always argue, this argument is thousands of years old. Warriors always say that gunsmiths make bad weapons, and gunsmiths say that warriors do not know how to fight. Nevertheless, questions arise for our gunsmiths and their defenders in this eternal centuries-old dispute:
    - for what (or in the interests of whom) they do not like our valiant and sacrificial infantry, paratroopers and tankmen so much and are ready to burn and drench them in their coffins on wheels and tracks. They probably also think that there are too many of them, just like us Russians in general.
    - Why buy and spend billions of rubles on such equipment. With the same success, you can go on a mission and in a cart drawn by a mare. Therefore, I propose instead of the armored personnel carrier of the Arzamasmashzavod and BMP of the Kurganmashzavod to buy arbs and carts, the protective effect will be about the same and the passability at least not worse.
    However, it seems the ice has broken, when the new equipment arrives at the troops, they will quickly figure out where to sit on the march, inside or out.
    1. +2
      8 December 2012 18: 41
      Quote: Centurion
      However, it seems the ice has broken, when the new equipment arrives at the troops, they will quickly figure out where to sit on the march, inside or out.

      Yes, it will also sit on a march with a column on the armor. With ambushes, there will be more chances to survive.
  8. Alpha-omega
    +1
    5 December 2012 10: 12
    Why is it impossible to put "Arena" on the BMP?
    1. Footmansur86
      0
      5 December 2012 11: 06
      The problem is that even after the arena complex is triggered, the residual effect of the ammunition remains and the armor thickness on the BTR-80 and BMP-1 and 2 is not enough, so the arena is placed only on the BMP-3.
      1. Alpha-omega
        0
        5 December 2012 11: 14
        It seems that the BMP-1,2 would have long been time to remove from service.
        1. Footmansur86
          +4
          5 December 2012 11: 35
          Another minus when moving an infantry fighting vehicle in the infantry chain, when the complex is triggered, its own infantry will be hit with fragments
          1. Alpha-omega
            +1
            5 December 2012 11: 43
            ... or with fragments from an exploding enemy shell and with fragments of the ex-BMP that this shell was intended for, is that right? In my opinion, in this case, the infantry should be located inside the BMP.
            1. Footmansur86
              +3
              5 December 2012 11: 48
              The infantry in the infantry fighting vehicle only moves to the battlefield, and does not sit there and smokes bamboo, and at distances of fire of manual anti-tank equipment the infantry is out of the car and engages in battle, so the directional charge of the charge will hit its own infantry.
              1. +4
                5 December 2012 18: 43
                Quote: Footmansur86
                The infantry in the infantry fighting vehicle only moves to the battlefield, and does not sit there and smokes bamboo, and at distances of fire of manual anti-tank equipment the infantry is out of the car and is fighting


                These are obsolete dogmas written by cabinet seniors.
                The rules of war are too multifaceted: ambushes, convoys, evacuation ...

                No one requires 60-ton super-armored personnel carriers, but armor should at least hold an 12,7 mm DShK bullet. This is a basic minimum
                1. +3
                  5 December 2012 18: 49
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  but the armor should at least hold an 12,7 mm DShK bullet. This is a basic minimum


                  The basic minimum is cumulative ammunition starting with RPG-7 and above. And for this you need a minimum of 60 mm armor to safely install dynamic protection on it. KAZ needs to be considered separately, there is still a need to keep fragments of artillery shells.
                  1. +2
                    6 December 2012 17: 04
                    Even the date is just about right.
                2. +7
                  5 December 2012 21: 06
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  but the armor should at least hold an 12,7 mm DShK bullet. This is a basic minimum

                  The BTR-90 forehead holds 300mm shell. Mine protection base. The landing seats are suspended from the roof. Double side, with protection against kuma.


                  It was adopted, but because of the mice in the head of some high-ranking managers of the Ministry of Defense, the BTR-90 was almost not bought into the Army.
                  I know people who managed to ride it - only rave reviews.
                  By the way, they were equipped with sights that track several goals at once. Kevlar shatterproof, etc. ....
                  1. +3
                    5 December 2012 22: 06
                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    The BTR-90 forehead holds 300mm shell

                    Sorry, sealed up sad
                    Read "30 mm"
                  2. 0
                    6 December 2012 18: 50
                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    BTR-90

                    Bad_gr, is there a photo of the BTR-90 from inaccessible?
                    If so - discard in PM, please.
                    The BTR-90 looks like a really decent car.
                    It’s a pity that it didn’t happen ...
                    1. +1
                      6 December 2012 22: 12
                      Quote: Flood
                      Is there a photo of the BTR-90 from inaccessible?

                      Alas no sad Everything that I have on this armored personnel carrier is taken from the network.

                      BTR-90 (22 tons) and BTR-82 (15 tons).
                      1. 0
                        15 February 2014 22: 25
                        We also talked about Berezhok - it’s kind of a cool-steep tower for the BTR-90. But along with the BTR-90, Berezhok also disappeared ...
                  3. 0
                    21 January 2023 07: 22
                    The board is double, with protection against kuma.

                    This is most likely simple - simply spaced booking. And I doubt that it will withstand cumulative ammunition. To withstand the cumulative ammunition, you need to put a DZ.
                3. Footmansur86
                  +1
                  5 December 2012 21: 28
                  Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                  These are obsolete dogmas written by cabinet seniors.
                  The rules of war are too multifaceted: ambushes, convoys, evacuation ...

                  The combat charter was written by the blood of our grandfathers who fought in the Great Patriotic War, and not by rat rats, as you put it, the next time we’ll rewrite the charter after the 3rd World War.
                  1. +3
                    5 December 2012 21: 32
                    Quote: Footmansur86
                    The combat charter was written by the blood of our grandfathers who fought in the Great Patriotic War, and not by rat rats, as you put it, the next time we’ll rewrite the charter after the 3rd World War.

                    Well, why rewrite? BU part three, fighting in the city for more than half a century has been living and relevant. For there was no fight steeper than Stalingrad and never will be. The people are not the same.
                  2. +3
                    6 December 2012 01: 28
                    Quote: Footmansur86
                    The combat charter is written in the blood of our grandfathers who fought in WWII

                    Armored personnel carriers in the Red Army appeared after the Second World War.
                    The concept and tactics of their use were written by cabinet rats
                    1. +1
                      6 December 2012 01: 47
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      Armored personnel carriers in the Red Army appeared after the Second World War.

                      As it is unfortunate, but not without the influence of Tukhochevsky and co. Armored personnel carriers they brought in the Red Army along the Lend-Lease, but all the same during World War II.
                      1. +1
                        6 December 2012 15: 30
                        Quote: Kars
                        . Armored personnel carriers in the red army were brought by Lend-Lease, but all the same during World War II.

                        The mere fact of the availability of machines does not mean their proper use as intended. Almost all of them ended up in art. units (tractors) and reconnaissance battalions

                        By the way, there were such domestic projects:
                      2. +1
                        7 December 2012 15: 51
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The mere fact of the availability of machines does not mean their proper use as intended

                        Correct use of armored personnel carriers? Isn't that transportation of personnel? It seems like it’s already inconvenient to advise you to learn the mate part, but it comes. Transportation of personnel especially the PT artillery is generally the first thing for fur compounds going into a breakthrough. So ring. And it’s good to recommend yourself Vienna offensive operation, where, as you say, dealt with the correct use of the guard units.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        By the way, there were such domestic projects:
                      3. +1
                        6 December 2012 17: 32
                        Kars UA Today, 01:47 AM
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Armored personnel carriers in the Red Army appeared after the Second World War.
                        As it is unfortunate, but not without the influence of Tukhochevsky and co. Armored personnel carriers they brought in the Red Army along the Lend-Lease, but all the same during World War II.
                        Tashchemto armored vehicles (we can say armored personnel carriers) were actively used by the Entente (including the Russian Empire, sadly to admit this to the Communists and nationalists) and the Triple Alliance as early as the First World War. Remember Lenin on an armored car?
                        "An armored personnel carrier (armored (armored) transporter, armored personnel carrier) is an armored combat vehicle designed to deliver personnel (shooters) of motorized rifle (infantry, motorized infantry, and so on) subunits to the place of performance of the assigned combat mission. In exceptional cases, if the enemy does not have anti-tank funds, the armored personnel carrier can support the infantry with machine-gun fire.
                        Previously, during the First World War and after it, it was classified as a transport tank or a conveyor tank.
                        According to the Soviet classification of 1933 "On the system of tank armament of the Red Army" was called an infantry transporter (on the chassis of a light tractor). "
                      4. +1
                        7 December 2012 15: 53
                        Quote: Sanches
                        Remember Lenin on an armored car?

                        On the armored car, I remember, no armored personnel carrier.
                        I can still remember the overland train train in the Anglo-Boer War and what?
                      5. 0
                        7 December 2012 23: 33
                        Kars Today, 15:53
                        On the armored car, I remember, no armored personnel carrier.
                        I can still remember the overland train train in the Anglo-Boer War and what?
                        And the fact that the statement "The armored personnel carrier was brought to the Red Army by Lend-Lease, but all the same during the Second World War." only partly true. From the tiniest part. And "Armored personnel carriers appeared in the Red Army after the Second World War." wrong at all. Immediately I remembered the Albanians calling all the Slavs Mongols)))
                    2. 0
                      6 December 2012 02: 13
                      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                      The concept and tactics of their use were written by cabinet rats

                      These, as you say, cabinet rats went through the Second World War. So they understood what they were writing.
                      We also understand that without objective objections, you are trying to question the combat charter itself. But only, whatever one may say, you are far from its authors ...
                    3. Footmansur86
                      0
                      6 December 2012 23: 55
                      Yeah, and the planes too)) You thought before you say ??
                      Moreover, in the Second World War, German semi-tracked armored personnel carriers were actively used, and the tactics of the actions of German motorized infantry were also studied.
              2. +5
                5 December 2012 19: 28
                In local wars, the infantry is mowed just on the march from an ambush or by mining roads - the overwhelming number of losses. It is necessary then to have special equipment for this type of war. Or to make one that will be universal enough and well protected at the same time.
                For which I respect Amerikosov, so for taking care of the life of a fighter, even if the result is later obtained (everything will be overridden by aviation and artillery). We have people - the eternal cannon fodder, the main result at any cost and, preferably, at some date.
                Heroism, very often, is the result of someone's headache.
      2. 0
        15 February 2014 22: 22
        This can not be. The arena destroys flying projectiles before contact with the armor, and therefore the residual effect is vanishingly small.
  9. +14
    5 December 2012 10: 13
    And I agree with the authors we need heavily armored armored personnel carriers. I will not philosophize about some sort of a great great war with an equal enemy where our BMP with light armor will be better. We have other questions now and people are dying now.
    My cousin went through the Chechen war, he said that armored personnel carriers could not provide even minimal protection and how many young guys died because of this - this is HORROR, you can write an article.
    An infantry fighting vehicle must deliver infantry to the target, but along the road it MUST protect the infantry from landmines, with ambushes from at least DShK and analogs, and in modern conditions also from RPGs.
    On the other, it’s a coffin on wheels, of course I “understand” the life of a soldier in our concept is not enough, but it's time to tie it
    .
    1. +4
      5 December 2012 22: 14
      Quote: iwind
      An infantry fighting vehicle must deliver infantry to the target, but along the road it MUST protect the infantry from landmines, with ambushes from at least DShK and analogs, and in modern conditions also from RPGs.

      Well, even Lord Vader's walking devices could not cope with this. There are basically two options:
      1. Traveling across the territory with protection from a sniper, various armored Urals, Oise, etc. Hamera cope with this.
      2. You need to fight. Here you have to be honest, any protection is fiction. The landing party must quickly and competently execute the command "to the car!" The easiest way to do this is with armor.
      That is, all that will be done is the struggle between these opposites.
    2. 0
      15 February 2014 22: 35
      There is a flying BMP named Mi-24. He also did not hold an RPG. However, nobody can name it a can.
  10. -4
    5 December 2012 10: 22
    "In the world and death is red!" The ancestors came to exactly this conclusion. Therefore, do-do-do-weighted armored personnel carriers-infantry fighting vehicles, our soldiers will sit as their fathers and grandfathers used to sit. Unless, of course, the commander kicks under the armor. wink
    Daring, recklessness, contempt for death and ... our historical "maybe carry". fellow
    I don’t see any particular benefits in heavyweights; first of all, maneuverability suffers.
    1. Oidsoldier
      +3
      5 December 2012 11: 56
      I also think that what BMP do not do - the landing will be on the armor. Sitting inside the car contradicts the very purpose of the infantry - to knock out the survivor after processing by means of senior enemy commanders from all the cracks. Sitting on the armor is easier to navigate in the environment, it is better to observe and as a result, the enemy is more quickly detected. The chances of survival are increasing.
      Our grandfathers were not stupid, fighting in the tank landing. It is better to provide a more convenient, regular arrangement of fighters on the armor.
      For specific tasks, it is possible to use the described heavy infantry fighting vehicles, but their appearance in the combat area will immediately reveal the plans of the command.
      1. 0
        1 February 2018 11: 57
        Quote: Oidsoldier
        Our grandfathers were not stupid, fighting in the tank landing.

        Our grandfathers rode tanks only because there was nothing more to ride, and you could drag on foot and with load for a long time and most importantly after that it would not be before the war.
    2. +1
      5 December 2012 19: 33
      Well, it's time to put the "tower" in place sometime. And so there are few young people (they do not give birth, however), so we will with daring and completely quickly bend - as a people, I mean.
      You ask those who fought whether their death is red or not. And about the grandfathers and fathers - so this is the bestial attitude towards them on the part of the command - why take care of them, people, women give birth to new ones. But hell, now no longer give birth.
      1. 0
        15 February 2014 22: 41
        What nonsense about the bestial attitude towards soldiers in the old years? I remember that Stalin directly declared: “Man is the most valuable capital.” And about the expression: “Women still give birth” - who, who specifically said that? , I am interested in real archival documents. And books like the dissident Pikulev libels do not interest me.
        1. 0
          1 February 2018 12: 00
          Quote: Basarev
          about the expression: "Women still give birth" - who, who specifically said that?

          As for who spoke in WWII / WWII, I do not know, but I am definitely aware that this phrase appeared even under the kings. In principle, the rest will tell the googol.
          Quote: Basarev
          Stalin directly declared: "Man is the most valuable capital"

          To say, to desire, to be able to do and do it are four different things.
    3. +1
      7 December 2012 01: 34
      understudy,
      You have at least one understood what’s the matter here. And that’s all, oh, oh, they’re riding on the armor, there are shrapnel bullets and even mines! They look at the pictures and on the TV, but why should I sit inside? I can enjoy it from above! I’ll start quickly, whirling down. Yes, and then, when it does, let them get in the beginning. Those who were in Afghanistan and Chechnya would understand me. And damn the body armor, until the commander sees it, I’ll take it off and put it in armored personnel carrier, because I’m in it it’s hot and uncomfortable, and indeed, he is heavy, stsuko. Yes, we are such, and we can’t remake us to anyone.
  11. +3
    5 December 2012 10: 42
    Well, as if everything is simple
    BMPs were created for nuclear war and no one thought of a mine war
    As soon as there will be the first breaks of 82 mm mortars and 155 mm shells, everything will climb like armor for armor
    1. Footmansur86
      +3
      5 December 2012 11: 08
      Well, now they are afraid of land mines, but in a full-fledged war, the density of fire is different and artillery lights and much more.
  12. demon ada
    -10
    5 December 2012 10: 59
    there’s one way to drive fighters under armor,
    do not pay insurance (and other payments) if the fighter
    at the time of injury or death was not inside the "box"
    1. +7
      5 December 2012 11: 23
      Will not work:
      1. Life is more expensive than any insurance.
      2. Prove where the fighter was.
      3. The order to dismount, and in return, insurance only in the reservation is valid ...
      1. 0
        5 December 2012 13: 06
        The demon of Hell .. is also right, in its own way.
        There were slaves in the galleys ... let's continue ..
        ". one way to drive soldiers under the armor," - chained to the sides,
        another way - after the pen into the box - to tie (or better - chop off) the legs,
        the third way is to drink to insensibility (all sorts of pluses appear here ..)
        The fourth way is to drive right at the factory and brew holes,
        alternatively - to conclude a contract with Copperfield (he walks through the Chinese wall that he should put soldiers in a bronick).
        ...
        Any tool is good in its place.
        I think there will be work for heavyweights, and lightweights.
        The problem, as always, is in proportion.
        1. orfo
          0
          5 December 2012 22: 41
          a few posts above there is a wonderful photo on which 3 "chicken coops" are moving, invite everyone to settle inside, sometimes there is not enough space, sometimes the fear that when blown up, there will be a kick and so on. I finally freeze when, due to loopholes or the possibility of buoyancy, equipment is cut in armor. It is a very dubious but very effective water overcoming of obstacles, they have a sovetskaya doctrine of a lightning attack that it is buoyancy that is important, at least look at the warring countries, they have special equipment for landing from the sea, and we have some kind of under-universal (jumping, swimming ).
    2. +1
      7 December 2012 00: 07
      demon ada,
      But I don’t understand why they threw so many minuses to you. Here everything is on the armor, but why, bullets, fragments, yes it’s all just a photo. Are they going on a march, what should they do inside the box? Be sure when the shelling starts all they’ll be inside. Below I wrote a little about Afghanistan, it’s not possible to explain everything, but it’s not so bad and scary as many people think. And then, Afghanistan, Chechnya showed, What did they show? What BT equipment was burned in the city? Any , and to ask what fool drove her there, the tactics there are completely different.
  13. +4
    5 December 2012 11: 17
    sadly, all this is again politics, the Soviet Union was able to make a mega-protected armored personnel carrier, BMP at least in a small quantity, even for today's Russia ... but apparently before the priority was completely different focused on a large-scale war: rapid deployment, operational fulfillment of a combat mission at any cost. So thoughts out loud, now to our fighters in Chechnya to offer, for example, a heavy armored personnel carrier "Namer" and our BMP-3, what do you think they will choose ... I wanted to add 2008 was adopted by the BTR-90, but did not go to the troops, this the car surpasses the BTR-80 in everything: mobility, security, firepower, but harder, but did not stop swimming. What's the matter???????? Either we have a project for a more perfect car, or stupidly regretted money .... I don't know.
    1. Samovar
      +1
      5 December 2012 12: 58
      Quote: evgenii67
      Or we have a project for a more advanced car,

      Yes, there is - the Boomerang platform. The 90th was hacked to death because of the stern MTO and exits from the armored personnel carrier along the sides. In Boomerang, it is planned to eliminate these shortcomings (front MTO and landing / exit through the stern).
      1. +1
        5 December 2012 21: 22
        Quote: Samovar
        The 90th was hacked because of the stern MTO and the exits from the APC along the sides. The Boomerang is supposed to eliminate these shortcomings (front MTO and landing / exit through the stern).

        The fact that the BTR-90 has lateral exits, and not the rear ramp - people who have never fought as a shortcoming. From combat officers, criticism about the 2 side exits, instead of one rear, I did not hear.
        If anyone has examples that I am mistaken, give links to the opinions of respected military officers who agree with the criticism of the former from the Moscow Region.
        1. 0
          5 December 2012 21: 34
          Quote: Bad_gr
          From combat officers, criticism about the 2 side exits, instead of one rear, I did not hear.

          Because no one used them. What is there to do inside? If the possibility of a schucher exists of course.
          1. +1
            5 December 2012 22: 08
            Quote: robinson
            Because no one used them.

            Whose opinion is this? Do you have personal experience?
            1. 0
              5 December 2012 22: 20
              Quote: Bad_gr
              Whose opinion is this? Do you have personal experience?

              I always write my opinion. Hm. I don’t understand how otherwise.
              Quote: Bad_gr
              Do you have personal experience?

              There is. There is really nothing to do in the landing, the ability to catch a bullet during shelling is nothing more than to catch a jet of grenade launcher. In the event of a blast, as often happened, it happens, this situation is the most advantageous. Well, about the review, etc. nishtyaki I will not say anything, and so everyone understands. Yes, many more benefits.
              1. +2
                5 December 2012 22: 49
                Quote: robinson
                There is really nothing to do in the landing, the ability to catch a bullet during shelling is nothing more than to catch a jet of grenade launcher. In the event of a blast, as often happened, it happens, this situation is the most advantageous. Well, about the review, etc. nishtyaki I will not say anything, and so everyone understands. Yes, many more benefits.

                In Afghanistan, I have run into enough with the columns to have the opinion that I expressed above: the landing party is sitting where it is more convenient according to the circumstances. The fact that ours only travel from above is not true.
                1. 0
                  5 December 2012 23: 01
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  the landing is where it is more convenient according to the circumstances

                  I do not quite understand your circumstances. Sorry. During military service more and more these columns covered. (boys from a warm camp). There is no answer to the question, what to do inside? Shoot, well, if it comes to that, it’s better in the air, as a mine will be even more fun. Outside is better for anyone. Not right?
                  1. 0
                    5 December 2012 23: 12
                    Quote: robinson
                    Quote: Bad_gr
                    the landing is where it is more convenient according to the circumstances
                    - I do not quite understand your circumstances.

                    The probability of a landmine exploding on the side of the road is not a circumstance that would climb under armor?
                    And with mortar fire, where is it more convenient to sit?
                    1. +1
                      5 December 2012 23: 25
                      Quote: Bad_gr
                      The probability of a landmine exploding on the side of the road is not a circumstance that would climb under armor?
                      And with mortar fire, where is it more convenient to sit?

                      Bad_gr, if you remember, well, if there is something to remember, then nothing was put on the "roadside", they put it on the road and higher. The current in betra can survive something without options. that matalyga that BMP corpses all. And on the armor there are many chances. And with their accuracy with mortars, I had time to shit. Not that "to the car" to perform. Details however.
                      1. +1
                        5 December 2012 23: 55
                        Quote: robinson
                        then they did not put anything on the "roadside", they put it on the road and higher. The current in betra can survive something, .....

                        As for statistics, where mines were set, I will not argue, the nuances have already been forgotten. But the strategic roads were asphalt or concrete, so there is a better chance that the mine is on the sidelines. In addition, getting a bullet from afar while sitting on the armor is easy.
                        That the crew is better to sit in an armored personnel carrier than in an armored personnel carrier when undermining - I agree that it’s safer than an armored personnel carrier. By the way, even the unarmored Urals in the event of an explosion gives the driver a chance to survive. There was a case, the cabin was torn off by an explosion, the driver was injured, but not crippled. And in the BMP, in the event of an explosion, the driver has no chance.
                      2. 0
                        6 December 2012 00: 30
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        And in the BMP, in the event of an explosion, the driver has no chance.

                        Yes x. with him with the driver. You wrote about the side ramps of the BTR. And I said that FSU. People are closer that would not shoot at them. Or missed, well, at least. And this is current on the armor !!! (how to explain to them xs)
                      3. 0
                        6 December 2012 12: 26
                        Quote: robinson
                        Yes x. with him with the driver. You wrote about the side ramps of the BTR. And I said that .....

                        Indeed, I touched upon the topic that side ramps are not a drawback, but you are on the topic "where is it more convenient for the crew to sit".
                        It turns out:
                        I am about warm, you are soft.
                      4. 0
                        6 December 2012 14: 30
                        It is desirable to have both side and rear. But those that are on the APC are inconvenient, and the rear ramp is normal - this is a must
                      5. 0
                        6 December 2012 14: 47
                        Quote: Pimply
                        It is desirable to have both side and rear. But those that are on the APC are inconvenient, and the rear ramp is normal - this is a must

                        Not better than a catapult, but as an anti-mine defense, the built-in derebombel, a button hrenak and everything was so spherically scattered to make it difficult to aim!
                        But seriously, the use of infantry support vehicles is spelled out in detail in the combat regulations of the SA / Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. I recommend the curious to read. They ride on armor, as a rule, on the march and there are many reasons for this. For example, it is possible to create a density of fire on the column so that it would be critical for unprotected fighters if the regiment ambushes the company, but no doors / ramps will help to take up the defense as quickly as possible, because it is simply impossible for fighters to quickly navigate in a closed space. Normal engineering reconnaissance will not replace any anti-mine protection, as NATO's experience in Afghanistan shows, the main losses from the "mine war". For it is just a day to carry out normal reconnaissance, it is safer behind the armor. But this is an illusion. That is what all modern experience says.
                      6. +1
                        6 December 2012 15: 59
                        They ride on armor not because it’s good, but because of the design flaws of the equipment. And do not la la.

                        Naturally, a comprehensive solution to issues is required, which does not negate the mismatch of this technique with today's tasks

                        The main losses from the mine war do not mean that they are not conducting engineering reconnaissance, what hangover did you get this from?
                      7. +2
                        6 December 2012 17: 08
                        Quote: Pimply
                        They ride on armor not because it’s good, but because of the design flaws of the equipment. And do not la la.

                        Naturally, a comprehensive solution to issues is required, which does not negate the mismatch of this technique with today's tasks

                        So I am writing about it. I just think the essence of the decision of the "security" of the landing is wrong, which I try to justify. If possible, not at the "la-la" level, but with arguments.
                        Quote: Pimply
                        The main losses from the mine war do not mean that they are not conducting engineering reconnaissance, what hangover did you get this from?

                        What does a hangover have to do with it? There are correspondence acquaintances who served in NATO in Afghanistan, there are former colleagues with big stars, there are interviews of different representatives of the spirits, there are ... yes a lot of information can be analyzed, if there was a desire.
                        And the most important statistics, judging by open sources, the losses are not reduced, we do not. What is in Afghanistan, what is in Chechnya.
                      8. +2
                        6 December 2012 18: 18
                        Quote: robinson
                        And the most important statistics, judging by open sources, the losses are not reduced, we do not. What is in Afghanistan, what is in Chechnya.

                        It doesn't seem like you read the statistics. Otherwise, they would have known that the number of losses during the bombings decreased by 60%, on average, from the moment of introduction of anti-mine equipment.
                        I recommend that you carefully study the statistics before you trump it.


                        Quote: robinson
                        I just think the essence of the decision of the "security" of the landing is wrong, which I am trying to justify.


                        Great. I do not see the rationale at the moment. I see an attempt on my model of vision to cut something I heard somewhere. And that’s all. Specifics, pliz. Because according to your calculations, you need a truck not armored with a cannon on the roof.
                      9. +1
                        6 December 2012 19: 06
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I recommend that you carefully study the statistics before you trump it.

                        Well so, give a link,
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Specifics, pliz. Because according to your calculations, you need a truck not armored with a cannon on the roof.

                        Well, I already wrote, but I can repeat in more detail.
                        There are three types of military equipment in the army: marching, before combat, and combat. Consider the actions of troops on the march:
                        For the operational transportation of drugs, it is quite easy to armored wheeled vehicles, with protection from shelling and meeting the requirements of the charter for an accelerated exit from under it by maximizing the speed of movement. Better not armed, because a large caliber attracts concentrated fire by definition. Mine protection of the bottom is certainly a good thing, but speed, dynamics, maneuverability and stability on the march are more important. It is better to provide cover with specialized heavy equipment, such as a tank. And he can cover with armor, and suppress firing points, and protect him is perhaps not an example more serious than any infantry fighting vehicle, all things being equal.
                        If we talk directly about the hostilities, then talk about infantry support vehicles in isolation from direct tactics is pointless. For the front, both armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles are quite suitable, their place is clearly defined by the combat charter (read, an interesting book with pictures). For different counter-terrorist events, perhaps you need something of your own. Although I have often seen how all our special forces storm private houses using armored personnel carriers (in the video). Perhaps they have their own opinion.
                      10. +1
                        6 December 2012 19: 39
                        After all, you appeal to statistics, right? So please us if you have this data. I have them - with a selection of years and a complete breakdown. And you?

                        Special forces are storming, because they have this very armored personnel carrier. In the same Israel, they use either the "Matador" (a special charge for embroidering wall-doors, or an armored radio-controlled bulldozer).

                        I read the charter. How modern is it for today, you will not say?

                        Life is changing every hour. You will not be alive by a single charter. The place of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles in the form in which they were is now being reduced more and more. They bring death to the soldiers. And they are used only because there is no replacement yet. That’s the whole story.

                        For different tasks, different machines are needed. But cars that become coffins are not needed a priori.
                      11. +2
                        6 December 2012 20: 18

                        For example, what I see. And your secret?
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I read the charter. How modern is it for today, you will not say?

                        The latest edition for 1989 which I watched is 100% relevant. It’s just that there aren’t many things there, before the conclusion we collected notes, said that I would take into account the experience and make additions and changes to the charter. Well so, it is clear how it all ended. Well, nevertheless, in the city, nobody could finish writing. Can you complement what? AND? There is a classic.
                        Quote: Pimply
                        For different tasks, different machines are needed. But cars that become coffins are not needed a priori.

                        You completely confused me, asked for specifics, I wrote what I understand. You answered about the bulldozer on the radio and that’s it! Interesting girls are dancing! I’ve already been informed, or challenge in detail, or we will fix the drain on the topic. Gee.
                      12. -1
                        7 December 2012 07: 51
                        You give general losses, and in this case we are talking about losses on the WU. To start.
                      13. +1
                        7 December 2012 12: 59
                        Quote: Pimply
                        You give general losses, and in this case we are talking about losses on the WU. To start.

                        I took this graph from an article where it is said that the main losses from the "mine war". What proportion do you know? Well, if we assume that NATO has learned to defend against mines, but the corpses immediately went from road accidents, then they defend themselves incorrectly.
                        And then, you talked about reducing mine losses by 60%, well, give at least some confirmation. Otherwise, sorry, it all looks like "la-la". (using your vocabulary)
                      14. -1
                        7 December 2012 13: 10
                        Well, here is the data. Disassemble. Detail who, what, what
                        http://icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx

                        In July 2008 the US Military reported the number of EFP attacks had dropped by 70 percent - for example. There are a lot of links.

                        http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/07/gns_efp_071708/
                      15. 0
                        7 December 2012 13: 33
                        Pimply, I understand that Google steers. But you need to read what you offer to consider the opponent:
                        WASHINGTON - The number of deadly armor-piercing roadside bombs, which the US government has linked to Iran, has dropped by nearly 70 percent in the past three months, the US military said.

                        The decline comes in the wake of Iraq-led offensives against Shiite militia strongholds.

                        I think you can handle the translation. Where is the Shiite police and where is the mine defense. And you can don’t even leave the bases at all, then you can very strongly not be afraid of earth mines, they will be drowned out of flying currents. Gee.
      2. 0
        15 February 2014 22: 45
        They would do better armored personnel carriers based on Almaty, would not fool people better.
  14. Net
    Net
    +5
    5 December 2012 11: 36
    Assessment of increased security in my opinion is very one-sided. All of the threats that are listed here are land mines on the road, birds from around the corner - these are all sabotage operations, and there is no protection against them, in the context of increasing the protection of equipment. The merkava will not fly into the air today, tomorrow it will be buried in the ground more powerful - it’s cheap and you don’t have to invent anything. Other measures are needed here. To take an example from the USA and Israel, it’s stupid - their opponents are natives with RPGs, and a theater of war is a desert, with complete superiority of aviation.
    1. +2
      5 December 2012 14: 44
      What is the difference between opponents and theater of operations in the Caucasus from those in Afghanistan or southern Lebanon?
    2. +2
      5 December 2012 19: 42
      And you pay attention, now all wars are like this - on the one hand, an army with equipment, and on the other, partisans (spirits, Czechs, etc.). And how is it easier to arm a guerrilla with an RPG or ATGM? Yes, the same "Merkava" not every ATGM will get it. Yes, and land mines ... when on the sidelines from one buried projectile, the entire landing from the armor will lethally demolish or just a small, small concussion under the powerful armor. There is absolutely no indestructible technique, but it is not worth making it easier for the enemy.
      1. +5
        5 December 2012 21: 37
        Quote: Mairos
        Yes, and land mines ... when on the sidelines of one buried shell the entire landing force from the armor will be demolished lethally or just a little shell shock under powerful armor.

        When a landmine is supposed to be on the side of the road, ours are inside the armored personnel carrier, under armor.
        Ask those who fought - and they will answer that the landing party is located where it is more profitable for him to sit, depending on the circumstances.
        By the way,
        our armored personnel carrier is as low as a cart and, if necessary, it is easy to jump off it into a ditch near the curb, unlike the western ones.
        For example, this one, French: there’s nowhere to sit on top, and if you jump off, you can turn your neck like two fingers on asphalt.
    3. +1
      6 December 2012 14: 31
      There is a defense against them, which really showed a decrease in losses in the same US Army.

      Why is it stupid to take an example from the armies of the USA and Israel? What, Russia last 70 years fought with some kind of super-opponent? She fought in the same local conflicts as the United States and Israel.
  15. Splin
    +2
    5 December 2012 11: 43
    A heavy infantry fighting vehicle is a place in a tank brigade, and a light, and preferably wheeled in a motorized rifle. The fact that they unfortunately burned in Chechnya so Russia did not have armored vehicles for such wars.
    1. 0
      6 December 2012 14: 32
      Units should have both light and heavy vehicles - that’s the point.
  16. +2
    5 December 2012 11: 53
    "Heavy armored vehicles like the GCV and" Akhzarit "seem to be the most suitable means for future conflicts - such vehicles are effective for conducting hostilities both in open areas and in dense urban areas" For example, they created ideal protection, brought people to the city to fight, and that they will crawl out from there under fire? Our people sitting upstairs got under fire - they fell off the armor and hid, and then they won't let you get out, they just flood this cool armor with stones.
    1. +8
      5 December 2012 12: 17
      The building density in the Gaza Strip is one of the largest in the world and Ahzarit has proved himself there very well. About the soldiers who sprinkle with armor during shelling - the corpses will sprinkle both when stole and when the IED is triggered. sad


      1. Footmansur86
        0
        5 December 2012 13: 40
        Judging by the first photo, it would be better for them to sit or hide behind him, otherwise the walls in one block will not save even small arms from the fire.
        1. +4
          5 December 2012 14: 46
          In the first photo, the APC surrenders backwards, breaks through the wall, and the troops safely dismount through April in the building.
          1. Footmansur86
            +2
            5 December 2012 14: 49
            Just the building looks less secure than the BTR)
            1. -1
              5 December 2012 16: 11
              When the Arabs learn to see through the walls, then I agree with you. By the way, the gentleman’s set of the Israeli infantryman consists of 5 kg hammer for breaking through walls. So fighters moved in Dzhinin.
              1. Suvorov000
                0
                6 December 2012 13: 38
                Well, it’s so with you, but in Chechnya it’s such a mean thing to rummage through RPG or PCM, if the laying was bad, then Vasya’s kirdyk, though the laying there, as luck would have it, was done for good conscience, you did it right away for yourself)
              2. -1
                6 December 2012 14: 34
                In fact, it was very dreary and long. Therefore, at some point, the walls began to stupidly undermine.
        2. Brother Sarych
          -1
          5 December 2012 15: 00
          Indeed, a wall will probably be punched from pneumatics - not even a brick, but blocks of rubbish ...
      2. SIT
        +1
        5 December 2012 17: 27
        Quote: professor
        The building density in the Gaza Strip is one of the largest in the world and Ahzarit has proved himself there very well. About the soldiers who sprinkle with armor during shelling - the corpses will sprinkle both when stole and when the IED is triggered.

        I wasn’t in the Gaza Strip and I don’t know the layout there, but if you take the city building as such, what prevents the defenders from loading into the sewer well on the roadway or next to it all the explosives that they will find, and when passing such an armored demon will blow it all up? Will a monster fly away from 300 kilograms of TNT? After all, it is now civilians there and no one will do such things, but if it comes to war, and not the next establishment of order, then a quarter more, a quarter less will not be important.
        1. +1
          5 December 2012 17: 32
          Will a monster fly away from 300 in TNT equivalent?

          Do you know armored vehicles capable of withstanding such an explosion? Then share the information as I do not know.
          1. SIT
            +6
            5 December 2012 18: 53
            Quote: professor
            Do you know armored vehicles capable of withstanding such an explosion?

            No, I do not know. That is why I consider the infinite increase in mass due to armor a dead end. A fundamentally different concept of infantry armored vehicles on the battlefield is needed. You can not collect l / s in steel boxes, which somehow bang anyway. It must be dispersed into small armored units with a maximum of 3, and a lush for 2 people. There should be a lot of them, so that undermining or firing from RPGodnaya 2 machines would be unprofitable both in terms of explosives and the consequences that the remaining ones will provide.
            1. +1
              6 December 2012 14: 41
              In order to lay such a charge, you need to try hard, especially with modern intelligence. It must somehow be hidden, to collect such an amount of explosives. Think it's easy? Such cases are sporadic, basically, they enclose WUs weighing up to 6-8 kg, less often 9.
        2. -1
          6 December 2012 14: 35
          Nothing. In addition, such an explosion will be narrowly targeted and cause minimum damage to armored vehicles.
          1. +1
            7 December 2012 00: 23
            Pimply,
            Discrepancy — it is a narrowly targeted explosion that will cause a maximum harm, a cumulative jet — an example
            1. -1
              7 December 2012 07: 51
              Yeah. Only we are not talking about the accumulative jet
      3. +1
        5 December 2012 19: 44
        Quite right! With a circular attack in the city, the task is to get out of the shelling intact, and not to fall asleep and "cheat".
  17. david210512
    +2
    5 December 2012 11: 58
    it remains only to wait for the boomerang and K 25
  18. 0
    5 December 2012 12: 00
    In combined arms combat, armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles will shoot (exaggerate) tanks, helicopters, airplanes, guns and no armor will help them. It is possible (necessary) to make a non-floating BMP with protection at the level of a medium tank, an armored personnel carrier protected as MBT is insanity.
  19. demon ada
    +2
    5 December 2012 12: 02
    maybe it’s worth developing not passive protection, but active.
    before entering a settlement, it must be checked by unmanned systems, at worst ..... no one has canceled robots.
    those. to throw into battle not cannon fodder but uninhabited combat units
    1. +1
      5 December 2012 12: 09
      This is called fighting not by number but by reduction. Armor buildup - an attempt to compensate for the inability to fight - the thickness of the armor.
      1. Igor
        0
        5 December 2012 17: 46
        Quote: Setrac
        Armor buildup - an attempt to compensate for the inability to fight - the thickness of the armor.


        Only do not tell the Arabs, otherwise they were already running away from these ...... well, those who have thick armor laughing
        1. +1
          5 December 2012 18: 24
          Of course, they were running away, they were Arabs, but the Russians didn’t run from 60-ton tigers.
          1. Igor
            0
            5 December 2012 18: 42
            And there only Russian Jews in 60-ton Namerams drive around, something like that laughing
            1. Suvorov000
              0
              6 December 2012 13: 42
              Forgive me, I do not want to talk about any inter-ethnic strife, but still, so are Russians or all the same, Israelis
              1. +3
                6 December 2012 19: 37
                Russian Israelis:
                1. -1
                  6 December 2012 19: 59
                  Yes, the most beautiful girls have always been taken to manaikit
                2. Suvorov000
                  0
                  7 December 2012 16: 16
                  I don’t just ask, but again I don’t have any inter-racial censure, because the motherland is always alone and they swear allegiance once, therefore I ask the Russians or Israelis, there is no twofoldness in this matter. And yeah !!!! beautiful girl)))
                  1. 0
                    8 December 2012 14: 59
                    Everything is very simple. In Russia they are Russian, and in Israel, Jews!
                    1. +1
                      8 December 2012 18: 30
                      Quote: ded-mazai
                      Everything is very simple. In Russia they are Russian, and in Israel, Jews!

                      Figase mimicry! In general, it has always been the other way around, "if you want to be Russian, go to Israel!"
                    2. +1
                      9 December 2012 01: 08
                      Exactly the opposite.
    2. terp 50
      0
      10 December 2012 14: 21
      ... CHE-TAM TO DEPART. VACUUM BOMB ON IT, BECAUSE DISASSEMBLY ...
  20. +2
    5 December 2012 12: 05
    It is not necessary to fight saboteurs with the help of a heavy infantry fighting vehicle, you need to send your saboteurs to the sponsor country - Saudi Arabia, Britain, USA It is necessary to force our enemies to abandon such methods of struggle.
    1. +1
      6 December 2012 14: 42
      Loud, beautiful in theory, absolutely pointless in practice. Still?
  21. +6
    5 December 2012 12: 07
    Yeah, spears have been breaking for a long time about this. But there is NO and WILL NOT be a universal recipe !!
    Alas, each type of conflict needs its own BTT types, including light ones - floating and airlift. There is no ABSOLUTE protection - everything can be broken, over there - MBT packs burn ...
    As for mine protection - it must be, of course. Against such mines that can be put quickly and quietly, i.e. low power. But in general - to monitor communications and use sapper equipment, nothing else has been invented yet.
    The class of heavy armored personnel carriers - should be, in limited numbers, for, for example, urban battles, with good roof protection and weapons with "anti-aircraft" guidance angles.
    1. Town Guard
      +3
      5 December 2012 13: 52
      Quote: Mikhado
      As for mine protection - it must be, of course. Against such mines that can be put quickly and quietly, i.e. low power.

      If I'm not mistaken, on the modification of the (experimental) t-72 slingshot, there is the possibility of remote detection of mines and their detonation - they can also be installed as active protection. On tanks, unlike wheeled armored personnel carriers, making a v-shaped bottom is not so simple.
      1. Samovar
        +3
        5 December 2012 17: 08
        Quote: Guardian of the city
        If I'm not mistaken, on the modification of the (experimental) t-72 slingshot, there is the possibility of remote detection of mines and their detonation

        Exactly. The T-72B “Slingshot” is equipped with an electromagnetic protection system that provides protection against anti-tank mines with magnetic detonators. Such mines are included in the cluster cluster munitions, with which they are dumped in the area of ​​concentration of tanks or movement of tank columns. SEMZ allows the tank to quickly overcome such minefields without waiting for engineering support.
        Read more: http://www.arms-expo.ru/049049051055124050049052.html
        1. -1
          6 December 2012 14: 43
          Everything is fine, only now mines are used less often, and homemade products - more often
  22. toguns
    +2
    5 December 2012 12: 15
    request what to do, the new tanks and infantry fighting vehicles of the Russian army are needed, just like in the air, in the 21st century, the same infantry should carry infantry on armor.
    ps
    Israel’s experience in this regard is very informative.
  23. +5
    5 December 2012 12: 21
    I allow myself to give an answer to the question posed in the title of the article and to those questions that were as if unnoticed in the article itself.
    But in order. Soviet armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles were created under the concept of the European war from the standpoint of its conduct by the superpower of the USSR with experience of swift tank breakthroughs of 44-45 years. BMP-1s and BMP-2s generally corresponded to this, since they had to act in a well-functioning mechanism of interaction between the combat arms .... Armored personnel carriers from 60 to 80 are more likely reconnaissance and patrol vehicles than a full-fledged infantry vehicle (the main drawback is dismounting through the upper hatches, parades and exercises wherever it went, but under enemy fire someone who understands me will understand) BMP-3 (in my opinion) is a generally useless design mix of reconnaissance and patrol vehicle with fire support vehicle but not a full-fledged BMP. So the Afghan war already did not meet the conditions for which BMPs and armored personnel carriers were designed. What can we say about Chechnya? The conclusion suggests itself: Yes, heavy armored personnel carriers are needed and Israel’s experience is not worth throwing out. To what extent you need to think.
    1. MakSim51ru
      +2
      5 December 2012 14: 13
      Quote: Jarserge
      So the Afghan war already did not meet the conditions for which BMPs and armored personnel carriers were designed. What can we say about Chechnya?


      I don’t presume to judge Afghanistan, but in Chechnya, according to the characteristics of the losses of armored vehicles, one can say the following: Almost all the destroyed cars were not mobile, there was no proper cover, some of the cars were destroyed after breakdowns or just a few more armored personnel carriers were thrown and BMPs simply fell into Sunzha.
      On the contrary, in parts where motorized rifles were advanced 100–200 meters in front of the infantry fighting vehicle, there was practically no loss of equipment.
      Almost the entire article was written with an eye to the Chechen campaigns. That is, an attempt to comprehend the experience of counter-guerrilla warfare. In this case, Firm "yes". The existing armored vehicles are not suitable for storming city streets. But it should be borne in mind that, in addition to security, requirements are put forward for BMP and BRT in terms of speed, comparable to the speed of MBT and the cruising range.
      1. +4
        5 December 2012 18: 47
        Quote: MakSim51ru
        Almost all the destroyed cars were not mobile, there was no proper cover, some of the cars were destroyed after breakdowns or simply thrown


        Ambush and battle in the Argun Gorge on April 16 1996 (battle at Yaryshmarda). A detachment of Chechen fighters under the command of Khattab defeated the convoy of the 245 motorized rifle regiment of the federal forces of Russia.
        Losses - 70 military personnel. Are you trying to blame everything for breakdowns ... ehh ...

        Quote: MakSim51ru
        But it should be borne in mind that in addition to security for BMP and BRT, requirements are put forward for speed comparable to MBT speed and range

        Is a heavy MBT based on an MBT slower than the MBT itself?
        1. +1
          5 December 2012 20: 03
          70? believe Yeltsin (Goebels) propaganda more!
  24. +6
    5 December 2012 12: 23
    They correctly write that BTT should be different, depending on the tasks
    we need both heavy, heavily protected vehicles and relatively light armored vehicles. Sometimes it is necessary to hang a bag or a box of sand on the armor. But even a super-protected heavy armored personnel carrier or infantry fighting vehicle is not a panacea. There is no need to imagine such an armored vehicle as something like a German tank from the humorous magazine "pun".
    Moreover, due to their high weight, such machines are less mobile. The shell has always had and will have some advantage over the armor.
    And it is necessary to fight anti-tank weapons without substituting thick armor for shots (or running into a land mine, which is even "angrier"), but using appropriate tactics. The armored vehicle should not come too close close to the enemy, thereby preventing the ability to effectively use manual TCP.
    For columns, first of all, it is necessary to conduct continuous reconnaissance, to prevent the enemy from mining roads by destroying sabotage groups at night and day with the help of aircraft, drones, night vision devices, agents, etc. If possible, it is necessary to change the routes and time of movement of the columns, cover them with aviation and camp outposts. Then, perhaps, they will not be afraid to ride inside. smile
  25. uhjpysq
    +1
    5 December 2012 12: 24
    smile I personally, as a user, would prefer to be behind reliable armor, and not behind anti-splinter tin. And then there is not enough space in the landing, nichrome is not visible from outside. wink diesel fuel around the identity does not inspire confidence.)) I generally keep silent about mine action (they offered mehan on BMP2). on horseback riding there are more chances to survive.))))))) the ass is more reliably covered. only have time to look at 370 grd.))))))))
  26. shiso
    +2
    5 December 2012 12: 33
    That's when the more powerful RPGs are brought in, then they will think, and while it works and saves the lives of soldiers, it is impossible to foresee everything and insure yourself against everything.
  27. +4
    5 December 2012 12: 42
    For those with claustrophobia, they came up with such a thing. And it is protected from mines and the review is good.



    there is such an option


    1. Footmansur86
      0
      5 December 2012 13: 00
      But what about the flow of a blast wave? after the explosion of a land mine, the blast wave will kill the crew 100%
      1. 0
        5 December 2012 14: 48
        the first machine meets the mine stability standard with all the ensuing consequences
        1. Footmansur86
          +1
          5 December 2012 15: 47
          I give 1000% when blown up by a land mine or a PT mine, the blast will kill the crew, here is an example: http://rutube.ru/video/2ba8a4ae611c6e1d32e0b37ee2409706/#.UL80NoatPcw
          1. -2
            5 December 2012 15: 52
            1. Imagine what will happen to the landing on top of the BTR-80 with such an explosion
            2. ask what standards the bourgeois use
            1. Footmansur86
              0
              5 December 2012 16: 08
              the same thing as with the abrams crew, and this miracle of the vessel, the goal of inventing the cunning will be laid 2 PT mines in a spark, they’ll come up with another and destroy the car.
              I came up with a similar device for the infantry, called stilts))
              And so they did not think that the branches would whip in the face of a gentle American))
            2. +1
              5 December 2012 16: 13
              Quote: professor
              used by the bourgeois
    2. uhjpysq
      0
      5 December 2012 15: 23
      )))) not on them we will take the carcasses of the bourgeois to the landfill))))))))))
    3. 0
      5 December 2012 22: 14
      Quote: professor
      For those with claustrophobia, they came up with such a thing.

      :) and how does this landing of the crew differ from the landing of our fighters sitting on top of the armored personnel carrier?
      1. 0
        5 December 2012 22: 16
        Mine protection.
        1. 0
          5 December 2012 23: 31
          Quote: professor
          Mine protection.

          I tried to keep the scale. Suppose a collision on a mine. We look, the distance that the blast wave will travel until it reaches the car body. We look at the angle at which she will hit the body. If both there and there will be an explosion of the same type of mine, which machine will suffer less?
          1. +5
            5 December 2012 23: 42
            The one that suffers in the right picture is without a V-shaped bottom. This has been proven thousands of times in practice. At least read here about mine protection trends.
            Double V-Stryker tested
            And take an interest in the degree of protection of both samples according to the STANAG 4569 standard
            1. Suvorov000
              +1
              6 December 2012 13: 57
              It’s like you called yourself a professor, but you’re writing some kind of rubbish, look at the ride height about skiing on the Russian road, we already mentioned above, now imagine that he should overcome water obstacles as well and now think how to combine all this, all the same, the people who created this car thought what they’re doing, and the sample on the left is an individually sharpened project, nothing more, the armored personnel carrier is more universal and therefore you have to pay something
              1. 0
                6 December 2012 15: 17
                I lunge past my ears and send you to learn materiel. In particular, the means of mine protection of modern armored vehicles. You can start with my articles. Good luck.

                All the same, the people who created this machine thought they were doing,

                and therefore, fighters do not ride inside this Massive Grave of the Infantry.
                1. Suvorov000
                  +2
                  7 December 2012 16: 27
                  I learned the materiel quite well, in particular the mine protection means, too, it’s for such smart people that they simply lay down more explosive. and when a landmine is being blown up to ask where the infantry is to be asked, then the fun sniper is having fun in mastering shooting at a moving mesh, because the people who created this machine are mediocrity, and that’s how it comes out of your words, you’d like to start with something designed launched into a series and there they would have started to argue
  28. ZKBM-BUT
    +4
    5 December 2012 12: 59
    I do not even know. in my opinion, the problem of the security of BMP and armored personnel carriers has been sucked out of the blue. these machines are needed so that the infantry can move faster and that's it. so that the infantry does not stamp its feet. that's the point. as a bonus, they still have weapons. and now, after the appearance of these machines, the infantryman has turned into a motorized rifle. if the vehicles of motorized riflemen are hung with "sufficient" armor, then it will already be some kind of tank bus. But if you have a tank bus, why do you need a tank at all? I think the problem is that people want to die in war. but this is an obsurdity if you don't want a soldier to die, don't start a war. everything else is from the evil one.
    1. +2
      5 December 2012 13: 25
      There is no problem with a finger sucked.
      Here the article - by name - is provocative.
      Although it follows from the article itself that the Americans don’t trust their technology. But enjoy.
      The Israelis do not trust. But enjoy.
      ...
      Well, we, respectively. We use it. And the author does not trust.
      1. bask
        +1
        5 December 2012 16: 50
        You can suck and distrust only women, and use toilet paper. The problem has ripened and overripe, for today ... But as a provocation, I consider sending unprepared armored vehicles to the S. Caucasus ... Someone else’s soldier’s life is not your own ... you can post all hunny ..... The author says at least one of that really huge problem .. HOW DOES ANNOUR ARMOR EQUIPMENT WITH MAXIMUM PROTECTION TO RESCUE THE LIFE OF A SIMPLE SOLDIER -VANIA ... This is task number 1 for the modern Russian army ... To launch production of armored vehicles with mine protection and wired against RP ... Upgrading an existing armor !!!!!
        1. +1
          6 December 2012 18: 41
          I affirm that even defective equipment was sent that did not move on its own, and it was not uncommon in the first Chechen one.
    2. uhjpysq
      +1
      5 December 2012 15: 32
      ) Of course, to whom is hunting to die)) here we need armor
  29. Vlados
    +5
    5 December 2012 13: 06
    "Namer" which is translated into Russian as "Leopard / Cheetah / Spotted Cat" is undergoing an additional "upgrade" today. As well as on the Merkava Mark 4 tank, the "Meil Ruach" is installed on it or that in the translation "Windbreaker", capable of reflecting several simultaneously fired at it shells of different types both from a long distance and from a short distance. It will receive the addition "M" as well as on the Merkava Mk4-M tank.

    Also, they started testing a 30 mm gun on Namer, so not only 2 for 7,62


    According to some foreign data, all available Israeli technologies, such as:
    1) Radar for scanning sub-devices on / along the roads (detects soil changes in front of a moving tank / vehicle, recognizes explosive chemical components in the soil)
    2) Radar fixing the direction of the shot of all kinds (from a spear / arrow to large-caliber HE / missiles)
    3) Noise radar - sharp noise changes in the surrounding area are displayed
    4) Improved fire system (firing from screens remotely)
    5) Improved communication system (internal military network with fast transmission of high-purity video and audio data and resolutions)

    SYSTEM The windbreaker has repeatedly proven itself in the Gaza Strip.

    And yes, Russia needs such heavyweights, even they don’t know how to swim.

    Name M
    1. -1
      6 December 2012 14: 45
      It is worth noting that KAZ, as far as I remember, has not yet been set up - they still decide which one to set. The gun has long been tested.
      1. Vlados
        -1
        6 December 2012 22: 48
        There was a case with KAZ, they thought to combine the "Windbreaker" from RAPHAEL with the "Iron Fist" from "IWI" time. soldier
        The "Samson 30 RCWS" cannon itself has been tested for a long time. It is already being used in 8 countries including the Czech Republic, Canada, Harvatia, Israel (on several "Ahzarits") Spain, Turkey, America, England.
        "Namer", I think that the identity is finished, only here it has not been reported to the combat units, as far as I know. Akhzarit with Samson is 100% in Tsabar (Givati) and another one in Golan, I don't know where exactly.
        1. -1
          6 December 2012 22: 58
          Vlados
          what are you kidding me? "Golani" has been on "Intent" for a month already. Now they will rearm "Alexandroni", and their "Akhzarits", after bringing them to M2, will be transferred to "Givati".
          1. 0
            6 December 2012 23: 15
            Quote: Aron Zaavi
            what are you kidding me? "Golani" has been on "Intent" for a month already. Now they will rearm "Alexandroni", and their "Akhzarits", after bringing them to M2, will be transferred to "Givati".

            I confirm, I meet the intentions quite often recently, so I think the rearmament is in full swing
            1. Vlados
              -1
              7 December 2012 00: 16
              Golani will end up with Namers (End result = "+ -" 6-7 years "differently according to some assumptions")
              The Givati ​​are to be fully equipped with the upgraded Ahzarit Mk.2 within a few years.
              1. -1
                7 December 2012 07: 55
                Yes, as if a batch of 130 pieces had already been delivered, and "Alexandroni" is being rearmed at full speed.
          2. Vlados
            -1
            6 December 2012 23: 59
            Aron Zaavi,

            The fact that intentions are going to the fullest in Golan is not a secret, I did not discourage it and, in general, I didn’t even talk about it. Golan should be the first to finish rearmament as far as I know.
            I talked only about intentions precisely with Samson (what is in the first fot).
            1. Vlados
              0
              7 December 2012 00: 38
              Here on this photo you can feel the whole "Weight" of Namer. Here he looks at all 300 Tons
              And also the system RAPHAEL "SAMSON 30mm + 2 missiles" Gil "(Presumably, this is how the final installation on Namer will look like)
            2. +1
              7 December 2012 00: 49
              Vlados
              Golani has already finished receiving Namers. The last 51 battalion is already Mivtsai, and Samson apparently will not be stationed at all. The SV command fears that the commanders will decide that in their hands is not an armored personnel carrier, but an infantry fighting vehicle and will begin to use Namemer for other purposes.
              As for the pace of arming, somewhere like that under a contract for the production of corps in the United States for military assistance.
              Sample production plan for Namer in Lima 15 cases in 2013 and then the volume of 60 machines / year in 2014-2019 years
              From here- http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/content/pdf/IDR 10 Sept 2012.pdf (on the fifth page pdf)
              1. Vlados
                -1
                7 December 2012 01: 02
                Aron Zaavi,
                It remains to be hoped that the "Windbreaker" will be delivered .. drinks
    2. 0
      9 December 2012 12: 36
      Quote: Vlados
      They also started testing a 30 mm gun on Namer,

      In the USSR, this decision was implemented in 1977 by modest Soviet designers on the BMP-2.
      1. Vlados
        -1
        9 December 2012 17: 20
        I think the point is not "And we have been magically and for a long time" but the point is "Should I".
  30. +1
    5 December 2012 13: 45
    Dear pro-Western cocksuckers, here you go to battle in the unit where there will be a heavy armored personnel carrier (one), but you will not have a place in it, the most experienced and valuable fighters will go in it (it's not you), and you will go, no, not to BTR-80, BTR-80 isn’t how much money was spent on one TBTR, you will ride in a tented Urals, and you will prove how good this tarp armor protects camels from spitting.
    1. +5
      5 December 2012 14: 28
      Thanks to the way our soldiers die, who have to smoke militants on 3 of the day from one house of 5, of course, this is cheaper than flying a helicopter and those missiles that he will release into the building, well, think about shooting someone , all that cartridges spend that and so damn it. am Thanks to such people as you buy the tented Urals instead of Kamaz Typhoon, the savings, in fact, there is enough space for everyone. am Yes, I'd rather put someone around my neck in Typhoon than send him to the tented Ural.
      1. +1
        5 December 2012 14: 36
        You will put one fighter on your neck, the rest will sit in the Urals and die in order for you to slightly increase your chances of survival.
    2. uhjpysq
      +2
      5 December 2012 15: 11
      and you’ll go under the bullets on foot, in Budenovka)))))
      1. +1
        5 December 2012 16: 07
        And at this time you’ll be sitting in TBTR to push the rolls, because for people like you, life is more valuable than honor and dignity.
        1. uhjpysq
          0
          5 December 2012 18: 15
          ))) tbtr will save my life.)))) and you fool heroically burn.)))))))) and your woman’s rolls will be spread by someone else
          1. +2
            5 December 2012 18: 35
            You shouldn’t talk about my wife like that, she didn’t touch you, you would have insulted my mother.
            And on the topic - there will be a company of us, and you - a detachment with such a ratio, no armor will help you, and you will die in your 60-ton coffin.
            1. uhjpysq
              -2
              5 December 2012 23: 24
              ) and you setrac are also sneaky))))) in decent society they give a candelabra for a pug.))))))) but at least a battalion of people like you 1 will even turn a car. but about his wife))))))))))))))))) you need to think more broadly, figuratively.
              1. +1
                6 December 2012 17: 19
                I will not go deeper, I will just say "max, you are wrong", minus.
  31. +2
    5 December 2012 14: 09
    Setrac,
    as always, money is more expensive than the life of a soldier?
    1. +3
      5 December 2012 14: 22
      You want to protect one unit by ditching the rest of the company.
      1. +2
        5 December 2012 14: 53
        why not put the whole company in heavy armored personnel carriers?
        1. +1
          5 December 2012 15: 06
          The idea is good, but unrealizable due to the high cost and voracity of TBTR
          1. +1
            5 December 2012 18: 53
            Quote: Setrac
            The idea is good, but unrealizable due to the high cost and voracity of TBTR


            Did you find diesel fuel on 10 of thousands of tanks? You will find on heavy armored personnel carriers.
            The question of saving the lives of hundreds of soldiers (consider able-bodied citizens in the prime of life), even from an economic point of view, outweighs all the shortcomings
            1. +1
              5 December 2012 20: 28
              In a local operation where there will be 10 TBTR we find diesel fuel, in a big war it’s unlikely. The Germans didn’t find in the 45th.
  32. Rusich
    0
    5 December 2012 14: 12
    I just want to add this film "online" for discussion, or rather, everything that happened was recorded by a soldier on a video camera as an BTR-70 with soldiers inside and on the armor was ambushed by the MADJAHEDS !!! and what were the consequences when a jet hit- * Grenades into the side of the BTR-70 here is the video itself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6hhbhsaOfQ watch from 25 minutes !!!!! comments in the studio !!!!


    and what’s characteristic is who was at the top, as if they took an active (operational) clash !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    1. 0
      5 December 2012 14: 31
      I did not see a damn thing there, please write the exact time of the grenade hit.
      1. Rusich
        +2
        5 December 2012 14: 38
        33 minutes and up to 38 minutes are told and shown !!!!
        1. 0
          5 December 2012 21: 52
          Aha, thanks, looked hi
  33. +2
    5 December 2012 14: 18
    If an armored personnel carrier cannot fulfill its main function (safe delivery of personnel from point A to point B), then it is necessary to give a new technical task to the designers ...
    1. +1
      5 December 2012 18: 57
      Quote: Zlyden.Zlo
      If an APC cannot fulfill its primary function (safe delivery of personnel from point A to point B)


      The main task of the armored personnel carriers is too vague: it can be convoy functions, evacuation, effective actions when ambushed
      In all these cases, heavy armor is preferred.

      All speculations about the delivery of infantry to the battlefield, "dismounting the landing" - the nonsense of fat-bellied theorists from the offices of the Ministry of Defense - the range of application of armored vehicles is much wider
  34. +1
    5 December 2012 14: 40
    PySy Why PTURA, there is a god of war artillery, all kinds of trays, NONY
  35. -3
    5 December 2012 15: 21
    Honestly, not even a funny article.
    Firstly, the author does not understand the difference between police operations (Chechnya, Dagestan, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the US counterterrorism operation in Afghanistan, etc.), colonial conquests (Iraq, Libya, etc.) and full-fledged military conflicts when both parties can fully use all currently available means of combating armored vehicles - artillery, aviation, mobile anti-tank systems.
    Secondly, you can’t get anywhere, as it were, better than Soviet-Russian armored personnel carriers in Russian conditions. Because the native delivery vehicles can easily move on almost any terrain, and the western heavy ones cannot force water barriers and overcome swamps. It would be funny to look at the vaunted western equipment in Karelian or some other swamps. For those who do not know, half of the territory of Russia is swamps. Yes, and we have a lot of rivers that the enemy miracle technology cannot overcome.
    As for police operations, the Internal Troops have long been using means of safe delivery of personnel that protect against RPGs, bullets, fragments and land mines. For example, such - http://topwar.ru/15235-gruppa-gaz-predstavit-v-parizhe-novuyu-razrabotku.html
    1. 0
      5 December 2012 15: 57
      Just, And to whom now Do you need forests and swamps?
      Level of urbanization 73.2% in Russia as in most countries in the world. The main battles will take place in suburban and urban environments.
      For swamps and forests, it is much easier to use UAVs and aircraft with a thermal imager and detailed electronics.
      1. +1
        8 December 2012 15: 28
        For swamps and forests, it is much easier to use UAVs and aircraft with a thermal imager and detailed electronics.

        And also Terminators, transformers, etc. smile
    2. +1
      5 December 2012 18: 59
      Quote: Simpleton
      First, the author does not understand the difference between police operations (Chechnya, Dagestan, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the US counter-terrorist operation in Afghanistan, etc.), colonial seizures


      So, will we defend ourselves against 12,7 mm DShK bullets?
  36. brush
    -2
    5 December 2012 15: 26
    I do not understand why 70 ton BMPs are needed? Why do we need BMPs now? If you take the infantry from point a to point b, then they should be called-ZTS (protected vehicle).

    There is nothing better in battle than tanks. ZTSy deliver infantry, tanks storm the position and victory in the hands!

    And write off BMPs and armored personnel carriers as an obsolete military vehicle.
  37. PiP
    +1
    5 December 2012 15: 27
    I’ll add a little more: I am not opposed to increasing the protection in armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, but people who say about improving the protection of the landing understand, do not forget that the landing party (motorized infantry) still needs to be delivered to the battlefield. Take into account such parameters as cross-movement through the field, the forest, overcoming water barriers, by the way, take into account the carrying capacity of bridges and pantons transportation along the railway. If they invent armor capable of simultaneously withstanding both the cumulative projectile and the DShK line and at the same time not to weigh horseradish. That's when the landing party will ride inside wink
    1. 0
      5 December 2012 19: 00
      Quote: PiP
      Take into account such parameters as cross-movement through the field, forest, overcoming water barriers by the way, consider the carrying capacity of bridges and pantons


      But what about the tanks?
      1. PiP
        +1
        5 December 2012 20: 53
        Will the tanks go into battle alone? Without infantry support? On the march (in wartime) a column of tanks needs security? As it seems, the battle to capture the bridgehead - artillery preparation, the first line of attacking tanks (breakthrough), the second line of infantry, the third line of the infantry support vehicle. The defenders first of all "knock out" the tanks and secondarily the lighter equipment. In the city, in general, everything through the ass, in the first line, the infantry on their feet cleans, and already behind it the equipment at a sufficient distance to support the attacking infantry.
        1. 0
          6 December 2012 01: 25
          Quote: PiP
          But will tanks go into battle alone? Without infantry support? On the march (in wartime) a column of tanks protection is needed?


          If tanks are delivered to point A, what prevents the delivery of heavy armored personnel carriers at their base?
          1. PiP
            +1
            6 December 2012 12: 01
            SWEET_SIXTEEN, I agree with that. But, let's say the BTR-T (Omsk T-55) weighs `38ton (t-55` 36ton) the carrying capacity of the railway platform `73t (just under 2a t-55), isn't it better to load 2a T-55 on this platform than 1 -BTR-T and KShM? Another option: in village N, it is required to locate a garrison (strong point) to the village, the entrance across the Pereplyuyka river, the bridge across it can withstand a maximum of 40 tons, what about the BTR-T? Once again, I'm not against heavy armored personnel carriers and protection. It's just that everything should be in moderation.
  38. ZKBM-BUT
    +6
    5 December 2012 15: 41
    people, enough to swear arguing until hoarseness is necessary or not to strengthen the armor. for every twisted ass there is always x .. with a screw. a landmine - absolutely no matter what your armor is. I assure you, he will always find for you an extra kilogram of TNT. and if today the RPG does not break through your armor, then by the time the thousandth car is released, 10000 new RPGs will be able to break through this new and sophisticated armor. moreover, these RPGs will, as always, be released at your own factories and will primarily appear in service with the enemy. I myself was a gunner and called my bmp a coffin. but to strengthen the armor did not see the need. bmp is not a tank !!!!!! she has completely different tasks !!!! This argument is stupid !!!!!
    1. -1
      5 December 2012 19: 02
      Quote: ZKBM-BUT
      but to strengthen the armor did not see the need. bmp is not a tank !!!!!! she has completely different tasks !!!!


      Better answer, do you need BMP protection from the DShK machine gun or do women give birth to new soldiers?
      1. ZKBM-BUT
        0
        6 December 2012 13: 01
        a 7,62mm bullet should hold for sure. everything else is superfluous.
  39. zmey
    +8
    5 December 2012 16: 04
    As it was said above, no matter how you protect the car, they will destroy it all the same. and began to lean toward the tactics of using armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, and this is the most important thing!
    Read at least the recollections of WWII veterans and how tactics of fighting in the city with the use of armored vehicles were developed (armored vehicles followed infantry units protecting the enemy’s anti-aircraft grenade launchers, and military infantry destroyed the nodes of resistance - pillbox, bunker, bunker) and what tactics of application armored vehicles were in the field (under the protection of armor slip as close as possible to the enemy’s trenches).
    And to send armored vehicles to a settlement without looking at such tactics is either suicide or murder (depending on who makes the decision). 1995 Grozny not to cite as an example - the loser gave some orders!

    In a guerrilla warfare, there are only two effective ways of countering partisans and their sympathizers (my personal opinion)
    1. complete destruction of the entire local population + cleansing of all swamps, forests (Wehrmacht and SS troops)
    2. Destruction in place of only the one with weapons, the local population, without exception, is resettled (deported) to another locality (camps, reservations).
    3. playing for a long time with the possibility of any complications - the leaders and ideological ones are liquidated, the rest of the population is appeased (benefits, money, work, etc.)
    In all other cases, either loss or build-up of armor to insane sizes (the Germans even used armored trains, but to what sense ?!)
    1. uhjpysq
      +1
      5 December 2012 18: 55
      ) of all men to the wall. a baby on the bed.)))) tactics are very effective))) 2 generations and the problem is solved
  40. +4
    5 December 2012 16: 30
    I do not agree with the fact that TBMPs are suitable only in "police" and non-symmetrical conflicts. I think the attack of the fortified positions of the enemy with the help of Merkav and under their overlap Namers with Trophy will be more effective than tanks and dismounted infantry under the overlap of armored personnel carriers a kilometer behind. Heavy infantry fighting vehicles allows you to deliver infantry directly to enemy positions without paying attention to artillery and most of the ATGM-in, anti-personnel mines and so on. I am not very familiar with the military doctrine of the Russian Federation, but for example, it was not possible to suppress the enemy with artillery and aviation, to let only tanks without blocking the infantry? And if the infantry goes under the overlap of tanks, how many will reach?
    And how much stronger is the firepower of 7 fighters with AK than 2 7.62 machine guns and a 30mm Namemer gun (in which 7 fighters are sitting), considering that this allows you to use the optics of the BMP itself for accurate shooting, plus shooting at night and in fog. In addition, fire support with heavy infantry fighting vehicles is already in enemy positions, not superfluous. evacuation of the wounded and stuff
    1. uhjpysq
      +1
      5 December 2012 19: 08
      TBMP has more chances to reach enemy trenches. yes and in the city there’s more sense than from the tank
  41. Larus
    -1
    5 December 2012 16: 32
    In general, BMPs and armored personnel carriers were created to deliver troops to the battlefield a long time ago and if the leadership of the armed forces gave the task of creating a more secure armored personnel carrier, I think that the designers would have done it. who can only use the language of revenge, then they don’t care what’s going on, because tanks are still being bought for the army with obviously underestimated characteristics of both protection and the rest. So, until the patriot of our fatherland is at the head of the army and the country, and there are obscure temporary workers + general-SUVs, nothing will be done for our army.
    1. -4
      5 December 2012 19: 03
      Quote: Larus
      Actually BMP and armored personnel carriers were created to deliver troops to the battlefield for a long time and if the leadership of the armed forces would give the task to create a more secure armored personnel carrier


      This is a gross misconception from fat-bellied cabinet generals. The experience of the last 50 years has shown that the range of application of armored personnel carriers is much wider
  42. Bashkaus
    +9
    5 December 2012 16: 37
    And I did not like the article. Everything is well painted, of course, only one important factor has not been taken into account, each army creates armored vehicles based on its needs, and each army has slightly different goals. The same Ahzarit with 200mm armor, all of course is good, but on the scale of small Israel. At 7 in the morning, the tractor culturally brings an armored personnel carrier to the border, unloads, private cars of the Central House of Forces soldiers are parked nearby, they are transplanted into the armored car, for now, yes, the introduction, warming up the engine. at 7:55 am artillery preparation, at 8:00 am armor with the support of tanks and aircraft do not start an offensive operation; it is not necessary to go far, Gaza is not a large area. powerful armor, all do not care, everyone was mixed, left, field mcdonald, shower, got on the army bus and to the parking lot of personal cars. at 18:00 a soldier of the Central House of Defense ends his working day and goes home to his wife.
    But Russia had tasks of a slightly different level, they are, and I hope that they will still be. Our head hurts how two weeks to reach the Channel, how to transfer military units to 10 thousand kilometers per day, as during the exercises "east 2010"
    Even a march of the Tula airborne division for an exercise in the suburbs is not a "cleanup of the Arabs in the gas sector" with the front line crossing by 5 km.
    A long-distance transportation is not a joke. After all, even tanks are limited in size for a reason. we even have flat wagons precisely ground under them with a small margin. Our tanks can withstand, but Abrams ordered a trip to Russian Railways, a standard carriage is no longer suitable, we need reinforced ones, but where can I get such in a large-scale war? That and that, armor with armor, but there are another 1001 important factors
    And just do it: fear death, do not go to war?
    1. +1
      5 December 2012 16: 52
      Quote: Bashkaus
      from Ahzarit with 200mm armor, everything is of course good, but on the scale of small Israel. At 7 in the morning, the tractor culturally brings an armored personnel carrier to the border, unloads, private cars of the Central House of Forces soldiers are parked nearby, they are transplanted into the armored car, until that, yes, the opening, warming up the engine

      In store BTR-80, on the highway 650 km. The stock of the hot "Namer" is 500 km. The speed of the BTR-80 on the highway is 80 km / h, the speed of Namer is 60 km / h
      "Akhzarit" is already old and if we compare it with more modern cars.
      1. +2
        5 December 2012 17: 35
        Quote: Rumata
        Cruising range BTR-80, on the highway 650 km

        What’s the power reserve here? It’s more about the cost of motor resources, fuel consumption and the price of spare parts, including tracks and rubber rollers.
        1. +3
          5 December 2012 18: 05
          Quote: Kars
          What’s the power reserve here? It’s more about the cost of motor resources, fuel consumption and the price of spare parts, including tracks and rubber rollers.

          It goes without saying that it is impossible to transport by aviation, and there is a problem with transport trains. as with bridges. It's just that the person above described a picture in which tbmps work within a radius of 5 km, and I wanted to convey the idea that if you need a couple of hundred km heavy bmps will pass. Not so long ago, during Operation Cloud Pillar and preparations for entering Gaza, for certain reasons, armored vehicles traveled on their own from the center and north of the country to the South, and there were no special problems. Of course, Russian armored personnel carriers are many times more mobile, but there is no need to go too far and write about tbmp as static armored boxes
          1. 0
            5 December 2012 18: 17
            Quote: Rumata
            and do not transport aircraft

            Why carry them with aviation?
            Quote: Rumata
            and I wanted to convey the idea that if you need a couple of hundred kilometers heavy bmp will pass

            Salyarka will pass further.
            Quote: Rumata
            write about TBMP as static armored boxes

            Well I don’t know don’t know --- 40 tons in my opinion is the most optimal weight for a universal APC, BMP is money down the drain.
            Quote: Rumata
            from the center and north of the country to the South and there were no special problems

            Well, the Israeli budget will probably withstand this.
            1. 0
              5 December 2012 19: 06
              Quote: Kars
              Well, I Do not Know Do not Know --- 40 tons in my opinion is the most optimal weight for a universal APC

              Should it be on the MBT chassis or does it need a special platform?
              1. 0
                5 December 2012 19: 11
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Should it be on the MBT chassis or does it need a special platform?

                This is more of an economic issue. I would prefer a special development.
                The intention is really super-expensive, for Ukraine, for example, an excess of MBT which is not practical to dispose of.
                So it's all about the money.
    2. uhjpysq
      0
      5 December 2012 18: 41
      do not be afraid only a fool)))))) the Jews mean the strength to rivet, but we do not. how so? sorry for diesel fuel? and the boys do not mind so maybe even begin to ammo bullets !!!
    3. 0
      5 December 2012 20: 14
      Israel followed the path of converting "old" tanks into new armored personnel carriers. Why, in Russia, they first sell it in metal, and then "PILAT" public money for similar equipment. The main thing is to find who benefits from it and issue "vouchers with jigsaws" to "sunny" Magadan. It is desirable for 10 years with confiscation! am
      1. Bashkaus
        +2
        5 December 2012 23: 30
        Important is not only security, but also mobility! I repeat, for Israel it is not so important: from Beirut to Gaza, only 300 km, and Israel is somewhere in between. We have the same length of the Moscow Ring Road (ten-lane autobahn) around Moscow 109 km, so that not every armored personnel carrier and hammer can go round and go from the rear))) And there is nothing to say about all of Russia. Initially, we have different ideas and ambitions, our equipment is designed for transfer over 1000 km because we are the ethorically kentinental army, Israel is a local army, in the USA it is of course also serious, but with its own specifics, it’s better somewhere, somewhere worse
  43. +1
    5 December 2012 16: 40
    Guaranteed destruction of monsters such as Ahzarit or Namer requires exceptional conditions - massive shelling by modern ATGM systems or explosive devices of incredible power.

    The author of the article gives out wishful thinking ...

    Here is the link

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzVEduKGUws

    beautifully shot merkavs and in their place there could have been Akhzarits and Names ... And no massive shelling and all the more incredible explosive devices in power ... There they briefly show their means of destruction - ATGM Cornet ...
    Each armor has its own rocket, but the Arabs will soon test their Hashima on the Merkavas - let's see what happens ...
    1. +2
      5 December 2012 17: 21
      beautifully shot merkavs

      Catch glitches? In the entire commercial of Merkava, whose MTO burned out, there were no victims. Merkava with a torn track - no casualties. Merkava approaching a land mine more than a hundred kg - the crew died. In conclusion, the ATGM hit in Merkava, there is neither penetration of armor nor victims.

      And no massive shelling, and all the more incredible in terms of power of explosive devices ...

      More than a hundred kilograms of industrial explosives is what?

      Here is such a movie
      1. 0
        5 December 2012 17: 33
        Quote: professor
        Here is such a movie

        The carrot stood without a drop of diesel fuel, pointed two holes at it, the RPG-7 gave a rebound from around the corner, it is possible that there were no shells.
        Tanks are also leaking at the training grounds and the result is the same.
      2. +2
        5 December 2012 17: 34
        You show the hit of MANPADS missiles in Merkava? See:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltCxHIWj658

        Show you holes from MANPADS grenades - see:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn2YZvtG2kk

        You just took these 100 kg of explosives from the ceiling !!! Did you personally bury it there?
        And how do you know about the victims that the Israeli army reported to you?
        Some naive interlocutors ...
        1. 0
          5 December 2012 18: 47
          Show you holes from MANPADS grenades - see:

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn2YZvtG2kk


          Firstly, the photo is not the newest Merkava-Mk2. Secondly, the armor of the tower is spaced - therefore, not the fact that the hole is through.
        2. Footmansur86
          0
          5 December 2012 21: 21
          Quote: Selevc
          You show the hit missiles MANPADS in Merkava

          I decide to correct the ATGM or ATGM but not MANPADS
          1. +3
            5 December 2012 22: 12
            I decide to correct the ATGM or ATGM but not MANPADS

            Now not sure. laughing There is also a cardboard Merkava, it can blow off the wind

            or here is a flying Merkava fellow

        3. +1
          5 December 2012 21: 24
          You would first learn the materiel and learn how to distinguish Mages, Merkava from cardboard in the museum of Hezbollah, etc., and then you made fun of yourself.

          And how do you know about the victims that the Israeli army reported to you?

          You have a complete lack of ownership of information. I feel sorry for you.
      3. Footmansur86
        0
        5 December 2012 17: 34
        There is a full video on the Internet, which shows that BC merkavas detonated due to a fire, I argued with one pseudo Colonel Tsikhal (who claimed that he remembers all the dead soldiers by name) about this, as a result of which he deleted his YouTube account and I don’t met.
        1. +2
          5 December 2012 19: 07
          Funny you ... hotly discuss RPGs and ATGMs

          BTR-70,80,90 confidently breaks out of the DShK machine gun
          1. PiP
            0
            5 December 2012 20: 35
            I would rather wear a "bag" with shots (mind you, I am the only one) than DShK (with a body, a machine, ammunition and + at least one more soldier in escort).
          2. 0
            5 December 2012 23: 47
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Funny you ... hotly discuss RPGs and ATGMs

            BTR-70,80,90 confidently breaks out of the DShK machine gun


            You might think that in the hands of every second partisan of the DShK, and not an RPG.
        2. -1
          5 December 2012 21: 33
          There is a full movie on the Internet, which shows that BC merkava detonated due to a fire

          It would be interesting to see.
  44. +2
    5 December 2012 17: 32
    Dear Rumata, here you are again starting to measure the length of the phallus. Other things being equal, the light car is by default more passable than heavy, but it’s not important, there are leveling factors, it was necessary to cite such an important factor as fuel consumption with a difference in weight by five times and the difference in fuel consumption would be appropriate. Roughly speaking, if in order to refuel a division on the BTR-80, it is necessary to adjust the fuel level, then in order to refuel the division, five such echelons are necessary. in indoor special operations this does not matter; in large-scale military operations, logistics becomes a decisive factor.
    1. +2
      5 December 2012 18: 14
      Quote: Setrac
      Dear Rumata, here you are again starting to measure the length of the phallus

      In no case can you imagine anything better than an armored personnel carrier for a quick transfer of troops to your or captured territory, you can simply transfer a heavy infantry fighting vehicle a couple of hundred kilometers on its own, that's all. Just read who comments above and thinks that 10-15km for setting and ahzarit ceiling.

      BUT can anyone answer the question above, how will the attack of the enemy’s fortified position take place in case of war? An armored personnel carrier will not pass a meter, infantry on foot will also not go far. especially considering the level of development of modern artillery. Or let only tanks? Wouldn’t it be useful to use the TBTR in particularly important areas for a breakthrough along with tanks, when not only does the chance of delivering infantry to the enemy’s trenches increase, but there is also overlapping and evacuation of the wounded with the help of relatively fast, armed and most importantly protected heavy infantry fighting vehicles ..

      It's just that I was in Namer, and its optics allow almost sniper fire at enemy positions, it doesn't matter at night or during the day, and 50-100 of these vehicles in the breakout area is a very good cover for the infantry and I just don't see the disadvantages of such a concept other than logistics and "to reach the English Channel in a week"
      1. +4
        5 December 2012 18: 30
        Quote: Rumata
        BUT can anyone answer the question above, how will the attack of the enemy’s fortified position take place in case of war?



        if we take the local proffesor, then each machine gun and firing point will be destroyed by spikes from 8 km.

        Quote: Rumata
        I just was in Namer, and its optics allows you to conduct almost sniper fire at enemy positions


        From what? From small arms? On the go? Along the intersection? and what prevents the enemy from firing on Namer?
        Quote: Rumata
        Or let only tanks

        And let them go,
        Quote: Rumata
        An armored personnel carrier will not pass even a meter, infantry on foot will also not go far. especially considering the level of development of modern artillery

        Then, with what joy will TBMP pass? Let the armor not be pierced, but they will definitely smash the course.

        Well, then specify what is meant by fortified positions, how much depth are they for example? How normal? 30-40 km? With 5 lines, or how?
        1. +4
          5 December 2012 20: 50
          Quote: Kars
          From what? From small arms? On the go? Along the intersection? and what prevents the enemy from firing on Namer?

          Firstly, quite accurate fire can already be fired on the go, after the infantry has been landed, these same infantry fighting vehicles can block the infantry a couple of kilometers in advance. That is, the BTR-80 has good weapons, but it has nothing to catch on the front line, a heavy infantry fighting vehicle can take up a position as a tank and work with machine guns and a cannon. The plus is that he is already at the forefront and gives fire cover, and not shooting milk at a couple of kilometers from the back. But the enemy will not be prevented from firing, just Namer has more chances to get there, but the armored personnel carrier doesn’t. Density of fire on enemy positions is also higher, which is another plus
          Quote: Kars
          And let them go,

          That is, to launch the attack only tanks? Then neither BTR nor BMP are needed at all, but VERY many tanks =)
          Quote: Kars
          Then, with what joy will TBMP pass? Let the armor not be pierced, but they will definitely smash the course.

          Is it right that everyone will break the TBMP chassis? And it’s also possible that artillery fire will be successful and all BMPs and tanks will be hit by direct hits ...
          Quote: Kars
          Well, then specify what is meant by fortified positions, how much are they for example depth? How normal? 30-40 km? With 5 lines, or what?

          Even with a defense depth of 20km I don’t see minus TBMP compared to armored personnel carriers, as they move forward, heavy infantry fighting vehicles will advance with infantry, and armored personnel carriers will drag behind or engage in suicide hoping they will probably carry
          1. 0
            5 December 2012 21: 13
            In Russia there are about 20 tanks, which means about 000-40000 infantry fighting vehicles are needed. Look how many intentions Israel could make.
            1. -1
              6 December 2012 16: 29
              The number of tanks in Russia will be much smaller over time, because their planned number differs by an order of magnitude from the number you called
              1. 0
                6 December 2012 16: 51
                Quote: Pimply
                The number of tanks in Russia will be much smaller over time

                vryatli will be less than 12 000 2500 arm and the rest of the T-90 and Slingshot. Half in reserve.
                1. -1
                  6 December 2012 18: 20
                  I think it will be less. Half in reserve - I agree
        2. -1
          6 December 2012 19: 34
          About spikes and professors delivered laughing . The truth is so! laughing
      2. 0
        5 December 2012 18: 56
        The question immediately arises which is better, Merkava and Namer or two Merkava? Having a heavy armored car without heavy weapons is somehow stupid.
        I’m telling how the attack of enemy positions will take place: we designate an attack, identify enemy firing points, suppress with our artillery, suppress enemy artillery, attack again, reveal an enemy that wasn’t destroyed by artillery, etc. After several calls, the infantry goes and finishes off the survivors, there’s no place for TBTR, even tanks are not needed, here we need assault guns with a low shot pulse for mounted shooting.
        1. +1
          5 December 2012 20: 59
          Quote: Setrac
          I’m telling how the attack of the enemy’s positions will take place: we designate the attack, identify enemy firing points, suppress it with our artillery,

          I wrote if it was not possible to suppress. in the 73rd 800 art. guns worked on a piece of land, a couple of kilometers on the Golan Heights, and could not suppress. What if the enemy has a lot of anti-tank weapons and its own heavy equipment? If all the firing points could be suppressed, then why tanks? It turns out a salvo of art, and then a lone man with a flag, the whole battle is over =)
        2. uhjpysq
          0
          6 December 2012 00: 02
          everything is clear with you, everything is dear to you. he doesn’t even need tanks. give him a low impulse. you replayed the toys in a guy)))))))) you do not sell furniture there)))))))
          1. 0
            6 December 2012 17: 30
            So much beech and zero content, how do you manage to write about nothing. I work on the railway, then the answer is for SWEET_SIXTEEN, your post below is not our option.
      3. 0
        5 December 2012 19: 10
        On the topic of how to easily and cheaply take heavy armored vehicles to the floor of the globe:
        1. Bashkaus
          0
          5 December 2012 23: 34
          Yeah, especially in the Yakutsk region)))
          1. -1
            6 December 2012 15: 44
            Quote: Bashkaus
            Yeah, especially to the Yakut region


            Are there tanks in the Yakut region?
        2. 0
          6 December 2012 00: 12
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          On the topic of how to easily and cheaply take heavy armored vehicles to the floor of the globe:

          Against the Indians, yes. And so one submarine can stop an entire tank regiment, or even a division ... But I see, you persistently, in all publications, promote the idea that war is possible only with the Indians. What, from verified sources, do you know that pale faces will not fight among themselves? :)
      4. 0
        6 December 2012 00: 00
        Quote: Rumata
        BUT can anyone answer the question above, how will the attack of the enemy’s fortified position take place in case of war? An armored personnel carrier will not pass a meter, infantry on foot will also not go far. especially considering the level of development of modern artillery.


        Tactical nuclear weapons, BOV.

        Break away from the level of extermination of the Indians. Look into the eyes of a serious enemy. Or weak?
        And for the Indians, yes, they need heavy infantry fighting vehicles. But we are not Israel, our main adversary is NATO. These are thousands of km, swamps, water barriers. And all this should not affect the pace of our offensive.
        1. -3
          6 December 2012 13: 10
          But we are not Israel, our main adversary is NATO.


          How many RA soldiers have died in battles with NATO over the past ten years?
          1. +2
            6 December 2012 14: 29
            Over the past 10 years, the United States and, accordingly, NATO have been indirectly guilty of the deaths of all military personnel of the Russian Federation in the battles. Especially in August 2008. All hotbeds of tension around Russia are the consequences of US and NATO activities. The very existence and expansion of NATO after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact is a direct and immediate threat to our country. As, in fact, yours. There will be us, there will be no USA. With all the consequences for you :)
            1. +4
              6 December 2012 19: 44
              I did not ask about the international situation. It is not politics that is discussed here, but the prospects for the development of BTT. Where are your guys dying - in European forests and swamps or in the Caucasus mountains? From cannons "Abrams" and "Leopards" or from IEDs and RPGs of bearded men? Hence the dance is worth it.
          2. +1
            6 December 2012 17: 40
            Do you answer in letter or in essence?
            In the letter you answered nerd.su post below mine.
            In fact, we look at which countries are part of NATO and read the history of relations with these countries, then only the largest wars: WWII WWII, intervention, Crimean war (not one), Napoleon, Swedes, Poles, Austria-Hungary ... enough for now.
            1. +2
              6 December 2012 18: 46
              Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
              NATO in the last ten years

              Quote: Setrac
              WWII WWII, intervention, Crimean war (not one), Napoleon, Swedes, Poles, Austro-Hungarians ... enough for now.

              Quote: Setrac
              Over the past 10 years, the United States and, accordingly, NATO have been indirectly guilty of the deaths of all military personnel of the Russian Federation in battles. Especially in August 2008

              Some circus tent ...
              1. -1
                6 December 2012 19: 17
                Some kind of meaningless answer.
            2. 0
              6 December 2012 19: 56
              But what about the Tatar-Mongols?
              1. 0
                6 December 2012 20: 31
                I note that I did not remember the Mongol Tatars.
                I deliberately did not think about them since it requires a long explanation, so.
                Let's pay attention to which countries these Tatars are conquering, I do not write Mongols, since it has already been proven that the "Mongols" were added later to show that the invasion was from the east. So, before attacking Russia, the Tatars conquer:
                A state of Uyghurs (living near the mountains) is being conquered, supposedly in the south of the Urals, but no Uyghurs have survived there, but there are modern Uyghurs - these are Hungarians.
                Then the mysterious Polovtsians are conquered, of which there are no traces in the south of Russia, but on the west from Russia there lived a meadow - Polovtsy - Poles.
                And finally, Volga Bulgaria - existed only in the sore imagination of historians, but there is real Bulgaria.
                Let us refer to the name "Tatars", where is this Tatary, where did these Tatars come from? And it is - this is the Tatra massif.
                The Golden Order left no traces, but there was a lot of evidence of the existence of the Golden Order (yes, it was like that).
                Thus, under the invasion of the Mongol-Tatars, the invasion of Christian Crusaders into Russia and forced baptism, as they say by fire and sword, mask the population of Russia from 12 million to 3-4 million.
                What is "tribute" is church tithe (funny coincidence of numbers).
                Another funny coincidence Batu Khan, what does this name mean? We write it in Latin letters BaTuKaH, curious, do not you think?
                1. +3
                  6 December 2012 23: 00
                  This has gone into the most epic quotes that I have met on the Internet, congratulations to you !!!
                  In the course of reading, I would like to object both to the Polovtsy, and about Bulgaria and about the Golden Order. but as soon as I got to that
                  Quote: Setrac
                  Another funny coincidence Batu Khan, what does this name mean? We write it in Latin letters BaTuKaH, curious, do not you think?

                  There was a complete cognitive dissonance and I don’t even know what to answer
                  1. +1
                    6 December 2012 23: 22
                    I do not insist on my version, as I said, "a funny coincidence", and not the ultimate truth. It is hard to believe in the shepherds of the conquerors, but a militarized Christian order with the help of the Pope and other Catholic countries is quite real.
                    1. 0
                      7 December 2012 00: 03
                      Quote: Setrac
                      Little trust in the shepherds of conquest
                      If you look at the map, then the Golden Horde in area, as if no more than Russia at that time.
                      Or I'm wrong ?
    2. 0
      6 December 2012 18: 54
      "It's a pity for horses, but women still give birth to soldiers" this order of the generals is more than 100 years old and in it relevant even now. PTherefore, the IDF also fought for ONE CAPRAL, and our soldiers have been missing for 7 years now!
  45. sergey261180
    +3
    5 December 2012 17: 33
    The builders of armored vehicles came to a standstill. Modern materials do not allow to create a 100% protected car. The tank is protected in fact only the forehead. The side of the abrams, for example, is 45-60 mm, that is, it will not withstand a single cumulative grenade. Feed and roof - no comment. A tank survives on the battlefield only if it does not substitute the side and stern. If you make the sides and stern like a forehead, the mass will be such that the BMP will go underground under its own weight. The solution is to create new materials that are lighter and more durable. They did so with body armor. First made of steel, then switched to Kevlar.
  46. +3
    5 December 2012 17: 50
    No need to invent anything new. Everything has long been invented. In the photo the best means of transportation. In the event of an ambush, the result of the clash, for soldiers who ride on armor and for soldiers in this cart, will be the same. But in the case of using ATGMs, RPGs or heavy machine guns, the cart’s materiel will not be damaged. The projectile will fly right through and cause no harm.
    1. bart74
      0
      6 December 2012 00: 07
      Put a minus because you are not playing those soldiers.
      Now is the 21st century. not the time of the last 9th legion.
      After hitting any RPGs, your horse will either nudge together with such warriors as you, or it will be carried to the nearest minefields. You are killed, colleague. Peace be upon you shaitan.
  47. SIT
    +5
    5 December 2012 18: 09
    I don’t understand why everything came up against these armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, and even in such a monstrous form 70t (!!!). If we are talking about maneuver groups and a method of protection against weapons such as RPGs and land mines, the first thing that comes to mind is to disperse as much l / s as possible. How to do it? Make 2 local cars with a driver and commander of an armament operator. Move the wheels out of the case. In each of the 6 wheels there is an electric motor so that there are no transmissions and crankshafts there. Diesel generator in the bow of the car. The case is made of composite armor with licked contours, so that you do not ricochet everywhere. Armament of what-thread six-barrel caliber 12.7 with a rotating block of trunks and a pair of ATGMs. Troopers 3 people on top of the machine and in which case the breakdown to the ground. A sort of armored cockroach and the same nimble. Well, you hit one of the RPGs, well, you hit 2 that are ahead and without landing. I didn’t break through the armor, but tore off a couple of wheels. He dives to the remaining where the thread. The rest of you spotted and the next one gave out his 3000 shots per minute or pulled a fragmentation with a HE shell from a ATGM (this is needed !!) Spending a mega mine on a pair of such HE shells is not enough. In the open field, such insects with their speed and armament are just a smut for the enemy - even with the nuclear charge of their wilderness, because as long as you take them from the tank one at a time, they will make drushlag out of the tank with their whole ATGM crowd.
    1. +2
      5 December 2012 18: 27
      Quote: SIT
      Well, you hit one of the RPGs, well, you hit 2

      The density of various means of countering armored vehicles is already very high, and the further the more. When 30 Cornets will be launched on a column of 40 cars, what should I do? The baby is worth a penny, a child can shoot from it, and they will disable and such an armored personnel carrier and the entire landing party. In addition, if the protection will not be very. it will still move on the armor. The only way to drive the infantry inside is to give them confidence that the inside is safer than the outside.
      1. SIT
        +1
        5 December 2012 18: 59
        Quote: Rumata
        When 30 Cornets will be launched on a column of 40 cars, what should I do?

        Is the column going blind? Was there reconnaissance of the route? Could not detect 40 positions ?! Helicopters and intelligence no longer pour !!
        1. +2
          5 December 2012 21: 05
          Quote: SIT
          Is the column going blind? Was there reconnaissance of the route? Could not detect 40 positions ?! Helicopters and intelligence no longer pour !!

          Is there a problem to hide? What if at night? There are hundreds of cases where the columns almost stepped on the positions of militants

          Game find soldiers who do not even hide too much
          1. SIT
            +1
            6 December 2012 00: 12
            He found the soldier; there are no Cornet positions. Places where ATGM can shoot at the convoy are calculated in advance and examined not from the road, but from above from the ridge. Intelligence on the roads does not go. At night, the IR scanner, even on a drone, even on a turntable, will give out everyone who is downstairs even better than during the day and they will not survive until the column passes.
            1. +2
              6 December 2012 10: 05
              Quote: SIT
              Places where ATGM can shoot at the convoy are calculated in advance and examined not from the road, but from above from the ridge. Intelligence on the roads does not go. At night, an IR scanner even on a drone.

              What intelligence and which IR scanners? A prepared position can only be determined if you are very lucky. Read about Hazbala in Lebanon, when after checking by aviation and reconnaissance, a hatch suddenly opens and a missile launcher rises, and this, taking into account the small size of the theater of military operations, and excellent means of reconnaissance from the air. You read so hidden position ATGM-s are soldiers covered with camouflage net and all
              1. SIT
                0
                6 December 2012 10: 45
                Quote: Rumata
                Read about Hazbala in Lebanon, when after checking with aviation and reconnaissance a hatch suddenly opens and a launcher with missiles rises, and this, taking into account the small size of the theater of military operations, and excellent means of reconnaissance from the air

                Well, damn it, 40 ATGM positions in underground shelters with hatches and a rising launcher is already a fortified area. You can’t build it in a couple of hours, and the same aerial reconnaissance will detect the construction. And the agents also have to work out their salaries.
                1. -1
                  6 December 2012 11: 01
                  Firstly, shelling also came from nearby villages, and you can’t keep track of who built what.
                  Secondly, fortified areas were mostly known, but the degree of their survivability was surprised.
                  Here take an interest in this at the Hezbollah Museum.
                  Visiting The Mleeta Resistance Landmark
    2. 0
      6 December 2012 00: 21
      Quote: SIT
      Spend mega landmine on a couple of such landmines cockroaches can not be saved.

      Handsomely! But money alone is not enough for so many cockroaches. And for mini-landmines, on the contrary, it’s easier to find money. Some Soviet military theorists in the 20s also believed that the outcome of the war would be decided by armadas of wedges, replacing cavalry. However, from what the outcome of the war to this day is decided by tanks with infantry ...
      1. SIT
        +1
        6 December 2012 10: 53
        Quote: bot.su
        Handsomely! But money alone is not enough for so many cockroaches. And on mini landmines, on the contrary, it’s easier to find money

        Is there enough money for 70 ton monsters for every 10 people? 5 two local cars is by no means 70 or even 40 tons. On a mini-mine, one machine is blown up and 2 people fail, and not the whole compartment. The rest will no longer trample on mines.
        1. +1
          6 December 2012 15: 00
          Quote: SIT
          Is there enough money for 70 ton monsters for every 10 people? 5 two local cars is by no means 70 or even 40 tons.

          Yes, I'm not talking about 70-ton monsters. This is let the amers with the Israelis have fun. Both of them are now fighting in deserts and mountains, almost without turning off the road.
          But 5 cars instead of one, this is a breakthrough of money! Especially with electric transmission. Well this is color. Plus for each optics, night vision devices, thermal imagers, weapons. As a result, 2-seater and 10-seater cars will differ only in the mass of armor. And the armor is not the most expensive in the cost of the car. Well, parts need five times more. So, in large numbers, there is no way to make it so that the economy would survive without food stamps. At the modern technological level.
          1. +1
            6 December 2012 16: 00
            Life is the most precious thing. The rest is secondary
            1. +7
              6 December 2012 16: 56
              Quote: Pimply
              Life is the most precious thing

              As it sounds pretentious, but in the WAR the main task is to carry out a battle, it is very possible that the death of a certain number of people to save it will save millions of other lives. Although the task of military commanders is to minimize these losses. But when the so-called slogan reduces the combat effectiveness for the sake of the safety of the tank crew this can lead to tragic consequences in general.

              And it is Israel (with the support of the United States) that is especially not the case at the moment,
              1. -1
                6 December 2012 18: 21
                We say that the most expensive, and not that the most important thing, right?
                1. +2
                  6 December 2012 21: 11
                  Let's not engage in sophistry? Expensive, most important. The main thing is life, expensive this life))))))
                  I said my opinion
    3. 0
      6 December 2012 19: 01
      Damn, everything is so simple, only you have not taken into account one, but who needs it. MO profitable to buy abroad and divide the rollback. He survived the military from Mo, and S, K Shoigu will for a long time disentangle the affairs of the great reformer (combinator). For the Russian Defense Ministry, Serdyukov did no less harm than a Chubais for Russia.
      1. +1
        6 December 2012 19: 39
        Tell me, inside the country we have a recoilless paradise. Or vice versa - kickbacks are an order of magnitude more, and real quality products - an order of magnitude less. Something seems to me like that.
  48. +3
    5 December 2012 18: 14
    "The lack of buoyancy will have little effect on its mobility and combat effectiveness: infantry fighting vehicles rarely operate in isolation from tanks. And where there are tanks, there are always bridges and other specialized equipment." As far as I remember in VO, forcing water obstacles was a difficult and bloody business, it was not for nothing that so much attention was paid to the buoyancy of equipment. Maybe you shouldn't fully rely on the experience of new wars, but still remember about the experience of the last big war?
    1. 0
      5 December 2012 19: 11
      Quote: viruskvartirus
      as far as I remember in VO, forcing water barriers was a difficult and bloody affair, it was not for nothing that much attention was then paid to the buoyancy of equipment

      have the tanks learned to swim?
      1. 0
        5 December 2012 20: 59
        I’m not talking about tanks, but about BMPs, all the more positive experience with floating equipment ... http: //weaponwars.ru/bmp-1/35.html
    2. +1
      5 December 2012 20: 03
      The experience of the last big war does not tell us anything about the use of any specialized infantry delivery vehicles on our part. I will say amateurishly: the point of view that people in BMPs should be protected less than in MBT has not been confirmed by any reasonable arguments. In this case, lightly armored vehicles must exist, but not for use in conjunction with tanks. And here’s a clear position, How infantry must be delivered to the battlefield, in which moment to dismount, and that in this case, the delivery vehicle should do, I did not see. All famously thrown by names and TTX, and to ask a question - so how should everything happen?without being attached to existing samples - for our specialists below their level. This is called a non-systematic approach and is characteristic not only of local commentators, but also of the entire weapons system of the army, from the development of technical specifications to the tactics of already created models.
  49. +4
    5 December 2012 18: 34
    Both heavy and classic BMP / BTR are needed. And the military should confuse the Design Bureau about the options for converting obsolete tanks into heavy armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles for police and anti-terrorist operations.
  50. -6
    5 December 2012 19: 22
    "The armored personnel carrier must deliver the soldiers to the front line. This completes its task" - a mediocre lie from the arrogant and shameless marasmats from the offices of the General Staff

    All the conflicts of the last 50 years have clearly shown that the range of armored personnel carrier tasks is by no means limited to bringing troops to the front line. More often, armored vehicles were used to guard convoys, died in severe ambushes, and were engaged in evacuation right in the middle of the battle.
    For all these cases, it is preferable to have a heavy reservation.

    BMP is a stupid and cruel mistake - 10 people are not protected by anything. At the same time, "motorized infantry can fight on infantry fighting vehicles without dismounting, in the same ranks with tanks" - 10 people are sent to slaughter where it is difficult for even tanks to pass.
    Personally, I am ashamed and offended to look at such photos. War-war, but there are too many such personnel:
    1. Brother Sarych
      0
      5 December 2012 19: 34
      And I just think that they thought correctly, especially if we assume that the enemy must be WIN, and not play all sorts of games ...
    2. +2
      6 December 2012 00: 36
      Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
      Personally, I am ashamed and offended to look at such photos.

      The fact that you have in the photo is often not the fault of technology but the fault of those people who manage units, and then it is attributed to bad equipment.
      The Abrams tank in Fallujah burned in the same way as the T-72 in Grozny. And with the shelling of NURs from a helicopter with "Bradley, it would have been the same. The BMP-2 was a good car for its time. More than 30 years have passed since its massive arrival in the troops. It's just that we are somewhat frozen in development.
      Here is "Bradley", but in the initial stage of burning, there are many similar photos.
      1. Mr. Truth
        +1
        7 December 2012 00: 00
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        Here is "Bradley", but in the initial stage of burning, there are many similar photos.

        This is the Varrior of the British. Also UG. One trait from one class. CV-90 will also burn.
    3. +6
      6 December 2012 20: 54
      SWEET_SIXTEEN,
      .... BMP is a stupid and cruel mistake ... I will write about what I saw and I know, let them correct if it is not so. I served 2 years at 682msp in the village of Rukha, in the Panjshir valley. When I went to the military in certain areas we generally on ,, armor ,, didn’t ride stomped on foot, there is an BMP (it only has a mechanic and a gunner-opera.) the rest are in the tracks of tracks with a distance of 8-10 m from each other. WHY? When blown up on a land mine, are you on the armor or inside-guaranteed-khan. 30-40kg of TNT or plastid will not stand anything, not a single combat vehicle (the t-62 has a 50m tower, a 3-6m hull), in case of an attack, the assault troops immediately took places in the car and drove When blocked, yes, they were on the armor, because the crews were reduced and time was always running out. When the BMP-2 was replaced by the BMP-1, the spirits were much less likely to attack columns using RPGs and it wasn’t easy to fall back on a moving target , a shot from an RPG immediately reveals a position, after that a 30mm automatic cannon almost certainly does away with the calculation. In general, there were other BMP-2s in Afghanistan, they were also called rdinandy ,, special modification, without floats, with additional armoring of the sides and the turret, and the DShK with 500m didn’t penetrate them at all (he hammer the cores of 12.7mm bullets out of the turret with a hammer)
      But these photos should not be embarrassing - they set fire to and destroy any equipment. These BMPs, I think, were knocked out in a parking lot in an urban setting, or in conditions of a limited view, nothing surprising, war.
      1. +3
        6 December 2012 21: 23
        Quote: berd
        BMP is a stupid and cruel mistake

        Let me disagree. And just like the same mech you wrote about, I’ll say: I managed to drive both the T-72 and the T-80 (not to mention the other mtlbbmpbteer), I never felt as confident as on the ground with my feet. Any piece of iron can turn into a coffin.
        It happened to everyone. But when it was wise, it was like this: the GPP covers up engineering reconnaissance with MRS and other devices, covers with blocks on the slopes, even the NSV and the AGS were lifted. There was a case that on the opposite slope even the spirits climbed out and let's wave our hands, like I'm not me, and so we walk here. Gee. And then under the cover of blocks the ribbon could at least get through.
        And armor, any, is not a panacea. A bunch of times convinced.
        1. +1
          6 December 2012 22: 07
          robinson,
          It seems like the overlay came out. I WRITTEN WHAT I DO NOT AGREE WITH, BMP is a stupid and cruel mistake. As you understand, you cheated in Chechnya, (t-72, t-80)
          1. +1
            6 December 2012 22: 13
            Quote: berd
            in Chechnya, they swelled, (t-72, t-80)

            Kabul. Teply Stan. DMB 89
      2. 0
        7 December 2012 01: 07
        Quote: berd
        did not go stomping on foot, there is an BMP (it only has a mechanic and a gunner-opera.) the rest are in the tracks of tracks with a distance of 8-10m from each other

        How many meters behind the car?

        Quote: berd
        In general, there were other BMP-2 BMPs in Afghanistan, they were also called ,, ferdinands, ”a special modification, without floats, with additional armoring of the sides and the tower, and the DShK with 500 didn’t penetrate them

        BMP-2 They were given buoyancy in exchange for defensiveness. Already better.
  51. Brother Sarych
    0
    5 December 2012 19: 30
    The best protection for armored vehicles is probably initiative and a barrage of fire on the enemy! If you only plan to repel attacks, then it’s better to sit in Dota altogether, and then until you are smoked out of it! And they will definitely smoke...
  52. Alpha-omega
    0
    5 December 2012 20: 12
    Footmansur86,
    I completely agree with comrade. SWEET_SIXTEEN.)
    Under current conditions, armored vehicles are destroyed on the march, from an ambush, and not in large-scale military operations like the 2nd World War. Syria is the most recent example, they only work there from ambushes, and in such conditions the “arena” would justify itself: it would shoot down RPG shots on approach and the armor would protect against small arms, is this really worse than sitting “on horseback”?
    To be fair, two things are worth noting. 1 - the armor of an infantry fighting vehicle must reliably protect against 12,7 mm bullets and shrapnel, 2 - indeed, in local conflicts when fighting takes place in populated and sometimes densely populated areas, there will be a danger of hitting civilians, but, in my personal opinion, these two problems are much easier to solve than building a 60-, 70-, n-ton super-protected infantry fighting vehicle.)
  53. cgk
    cgk
    +1
    5 December 2012 21: 30
    It seems to me that for any weapon there is a “counter-weapon”. with the mass creation of such heavy infantry fighting vehicles, methods for their destruction will accordingly be developed - a matter of time
  54. bart74
    -7
    5 December 2012 23: 45
    HONESTLY! Didn't read the article, didn't read the comments. Anyone who writes such rubbish - get out of the woods! Live and rejoice under the stars and stripes!
    1. bart74
      -2
      6 December 2012 00: 02
      When you put a minus, be a man, write for what. After all, this site implies a gathering place for real military-minded men. And let all partisan fagots walk through the forest. You never knew how to answer for your words!
      1. 0
        1 February 2018 22: 36
        Quote: bart74
        When you put a minus, be a man, write for what. After all, this site implies a gathering place for real military-minded men. And let all partisan fagots walk through the forest. You never knew how to answer for your words!

        It was 2018, all the military-minded people fled in all directions...
  55. zmey
    +3
    6 December 2012 00: 21
    First, we need to decide what kind of war we are preparing for - a global one with the use of everything and everything (from strategists and SSBNs to knives and bayonets!?) or a local one (to take down a village or a small country!?) ???
    1. if it’s global, then the winner is the one who has a lot of everything, cheaply and dispersed over a large territory
    2. if it’s local, then there are a lot of different nuances here, from temperature, humidity, altitude above sea level, the presence of forest cover to the attitude of the local population towards the “occupiers”, then the winner is the one who studied “well” at school and thinks with his head before what -what to do! (1) conduct reconnaissance using instrumental methods (satellite, airplane, UAV); (2) launch a missile, bomb and (or) artillery strike against identified and classified targets; (3) evaluate the strike using instrumental means, repeat if necessary; (4) conduct reconnaissance with personnel (on foot or on an armored personnel carrier, infantry fighting vehicle, BRDM, tank); (5) based on the results of reconnaissance or together with reconnaissance, carry out the final clearing of the “area” from unwanted elements (rebels, partisans, terrorists, irregular units); (6) depending on the task set by the higher command, either gain a foothold in a given territory or withdraw to a point of permanent deployment.

    This is all I mean - and to whom do you all give arguments and counter-arguments and get lost out of the blue? One talks about forested mountainous landscapes and a “not very friendly population,” and the other makes an argument about a desert landscape with a “conditionally” friendly local population , as they say, do you feel the difference?

    and a small example from history:
    1943, the northern face of the Kursk Bulge - massive use of self-propelled guns "Ferdinant" in attacking formations (I hope there is no need to give performance characteristics? Everyone remembers the thickness of the frontal armor is 200mm) and how far did they go? half of the 90 units remained in the minefield with broken tracks. if they tried to shoot back, they were simply finished off with artillery (from 45mm to 203,5) from convenient angles and distances, or infantry with a bottle of "KS"
    1. 0
      6 December 2012 11: 25
      In my opinion, it’s absolutely accurate... so I think we need different techniques, just to determine the proportions and how many.
  56. Volkhov
    +3
    6 December 2012 01: 05
    There is a universal remedy - first notice the enemy.
    The enemy doesn’t need all of us, so he uses the Gigaton, creates Sinai, brings in the Jews a thousand years later, much later they are divided into Palestinians and Zionists and compete for the remnants of fertile land.
    If they understand where the enemy is, then they will stop suffering from nonsense and build a pyramid together, I can tell you how.
    And there is an armored car - a minibus, but this is a temporary remedy for misunderstanding.

    It’s just that all the tactical arguments have been expressed, but not once have they remembered the meaning of the actions as a whole; it’s categorically not accepted to think about this. Before Chechnya caught fire, the process was brewing, and the best armor was the brains of the leaders who would not allow development.
  57. 0
    6 December 2012 05: 27
    Logically, the cost of such an armored personnel carrier will not be cheaper than a full-fledged tank, so wouldn’t it be better to build a second tank instead and launch two tanks instead of one?
    1. terp 50
      +1
      6 December 2012 08: 17
      ...and the infantry is again on top, only twice as large
  58. maxiv1979
    +2
    6 December 2012 07: 06
    You can argue for a long time and ad infinitum, but the fact is the fact, the infantry rides on top, our armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles are being penetrated by a mass of types and types of even relatively light weapons and boys are dying en masse. A person already wrote here, why the hell do we need armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles? Buy horses, the protection of a fighter on a horse and on top of an armored personnel carrier is the same, the horse has more cross-country ability and you can carry a large armored vehicle with you, why pay for an armored personnel carrier?))
    Protection on modern armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles from weapons such as DShK and RPG-7, as well as from modern mines and roadside bombs of reasonable power (a pair of 105-155mm shells) is absolutely necessary. Ours do not draw any conclusions from local conflicts, the troops still use “cardboard” means of transporting infantry, and here we must take an example from the Israeli army, the most belligerent army in the world, where the life of a soldier is the most important thing
    1. +1
      6 December 2012 15: 41
      Quote: maxiv1979
      we must take an example from the Israeli army, the most fighting army in the world, where the life of a soldier is the most important thing

      Damn, if the life of a soldier were the most important thing for them, they would have lagged behind the Palestinians long ago. In the meantime, they are thinking more about gesheft.
      But protection is needed, I agree. You just need to understand that there will still be losses. The tanks are being knocked out. And therefore, I think, they will still ride with armor) Because ours prefer to ride that way. A coffin, it’s still a coffin, even if its wall is 16 mm, even 100...
      1. 0
        6 December 2012 16: 01
        Dear. You write nonsense, about something you know little about. Egypt and Jordan decided to sign peace treaties - no one, as you put it, “is bothering you.”
  59. terp 50
    +1
    6 December 2012 08: 15
    "Paper" went, goes and will go. At one time, the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian Empire abandoned Fedorov assault rifles due to the high consumption of ammunition (We focus not on the accuracy of fire, but on accuracy - e.i.v. N.-2) - the result is known. And not only machine guns - tanks, aviation, navy, all weapons... In modern Russia it’s the same. Until they punch him firmly in the face, nothing will change. As Zhukov used to say, soldiers should not be spared. (K.K. Rokosovsky was perhaps the only one who cared about this). Modern generals DO NOT KNOW what it is to be under fire - well, they weren’t... Those who were there know. As long as the music is called - the Serdyukovs - nothing will change
  60. +3
    6 December 2012 08: 28
    Where to start or begin... the article is normal... laid out on the shelves... only the essence is the same... everything burns. If the effect is the same... why pay more. They sit on the armor not only to protect against explosions, but and to improve the overview The only task is to clearly formulate what the equipment is for... army is one thing, police is another. Ours, as always in the article... is like deribas, our designers and production workers are stupid, even the words of the gold-chasing general were exceeded. I don’t agree with this, more the famous words of Zadornov... well, stupid... suitable not for the Americans, but for our... home-grown generals. What is the point... give an example, the world analogue of the BMD-4... correct THERE IS NO ANALOGUE, the designers did the maximum based on the requirements of weight-size-protection-weapon. The same applies to other types of armored vehicles. In Iraq and Afghanistan, virtually all types of NATO armored vehicles were assembled... and what we see is clear... even very, despite numerous modifications and improvements, regardless of the country of origin. Army equipment turned out to be not up to par... even specially developed types of police services also showed themselves not to be the best, from protection to cross-country ability... look at what kind of monsters the Americans stoop to in their projects. When they praise this or that Western-style equipment with a reference to hot spots... like it recommended itself there... the question is what... it stood at the base and gathered dust. But as soon as it was out of the gate, it was burned. In practice, we have everything , developed and tested back in the distant Soviet years, only this is all denied, it’s a shame to admit... that modern military bureaucrats... are just stupid.
  61. +1
    6 December 2012 08: 32
    Yes, it’s better on armor than like this:

    There is no solution yet; the situation with armored vehicles is now the same as with knightly armor in the era of firearms
  62. -1
    6 December 2012 09: 08
    unfortunately in Rus' this has been the case since the time of Tsar Gorokh - many generals believe that women still give birth to men.....sad
  63. 7778
    0
    6 December 2012 09: 26
    The author clearly has not driven either an armored personnel carrier or an infantry fighting vehicle and has no idea what negative pressure is
    The article is not about anything
  64. arthur_hammer
    +1
    6 December 2012 10: 09
    Well, the author was not much mistaken about the 300 kg of explosives and the detonation of the Merkava 4 and the survivors, maybe he meant 30 kg of explosives)))))
    1. -1
      6 December 2012 10: 36
      The author was not mistaken. In Gaza, Merkava ran into a landmine made from a 200-liter barrel with a hollow cone (~150 kg of explosives), then a directed explosion threw out the engine and tore off the turret. Here the tank was scattered much further.
  65. mrAnderson
    +2
    6 December 2012 12: 00
    What is the argument about anyway? armored personnel carriers were developed during the Cold War, when hordes of armored vehicles stood on the borders. The emphasis was on mobility in order to quickly overrun Europe, etc. Doctrine, textbooks and other literature talk about this. It’s a no brainer that guerrilla warfare requires a different technique and strategy. But the partisans cope with tanks with a bang...For every new armor they will come up with a new projectile or a new weapon - the water cycle in nature. They'll come up with thicker armor, install a new engine - the weight of the result will be a tank that can neither be dropped from an airplane nor cross a ford. And what kind of armored personnel carrier will it be?
  66. 0
    6 December 2012 12: 13
    It’s just that our system for creating equipment and weapons is not interested in the result. The process is extremely important to them. Because this is money! And if they do something worthy, then we need to move on to the next work. Seek funding again. We have become like the Indians - it took 36 years to design a tank! I don’t believe that in order to create a new armored personnel carrier or something else that meets modern realities, it will take years and years.
  67. zavesa01
    +2
    6 December 2012 12: 59
    Which skis are better? Mountain, cross-country or hunting?
    It's the same with technology.
  68. +6
    6 December 2012 14: 06
    Look, we have a heavy infantry fighting vehicle based on the T72 (made for flamethrowers) called BMO-t, if you wish, you can give it to the infantry.
    1. +3
      6 December 2012 18: 15
      thought and decided to add.
      For different TVDs you need different BMPs.
      It is clear that in the south and in urban areas we need heavy non-floating ones, but if we go to the English Channel using nuclear weapons and an infantry fighting vehicle 2 will do. Remember, the infantry fighting vehicle was developed specifically for rushing to the English Channel and in those conditions it was indispensable, and they began to use it in local conflicts where heavy infantry fighting vehicles were more needed.
  69. 8 company
    +3
    6 December 2012 16: 06
    I re-read everything and I will say this: the most important thing is the competent actions of the command organizing the combat operations. If the commander/military leader is a sucker, figuratively speaking, no super infantry fighting vehicles will help him, they will burn them too. And if you are a great professional, then you will achieve success with thin-walled bells. What the same Israelis proved many times by capturing equipment from the Arabs and finding effective use for it.
    1. +1
      6 December 2012 21: 58
      I agree with you. An army with competent commanders and a strong spirit will win. And the better armed and prepared will win, but losses... . Therefore, everything is needed in a complex: Spirit, equipment, weapons and training, commanders, food in the canteen, and most importantly, that there would be someone and something to protect!
    2. Mr. Truth
      0
      7 December 2012 08: 45
      8 company,
      the main thing is reconnaissance and fire organization, for sure.
  70. +2
    6 December 2012 16: 16
    thanks to the author - good article... yes, perhaps the conclusion for myself is the best armored personnel carrier based on a tank....
  71. Vlados
    0
    6 December 2012 18: 59
    Pimply,

    The "Samson 30 RCWS" cannon itself has been tested for a long time. It is already being used in 8 countries including the Czech Republic, Canada, Harvatia, Israel (on several "Ahzarits") Spain, Turkey, America, England.
    “Intend”, I think they’ve also finished it, but they haven’t been delivered to combat units yet, as far as I know. Akhzarit and Samson are 100% in Tsabar (Givati).
  72. +4
    6 December 2012 19: 27
    I don’t understand all this demagogy, everything is more than simple, the equipment must be adequate to the task and the enemy’s weapons, and if armored personnel carriers are fired at with anti-tank weapons, then this is not the fault of the developers of this equipment, but the fault of intelligence and the leadership that sent it there without the appropriate support. If we take even the best Western models, they are very easily and spontaneously destroyed by ATGMs from 30 years ago.
  73. +2
    6 December 2012 20: 13
    I wasn’t too lazy and re-read all the comments. Because this topic is close to me. Comments whose meaning boils down to “so what if their infantry fighting vehicles are heavy, but the crew is alive” are disgusting.
    Have you comrades even communicated with those whose lives were saved by cardboard infantry fighting vehicles? I'll give you an introduction. Caucasus, a checkpoint surrounded by 80% is fighting. Kolya’s arm has already been torn off, and Petya’s intestines are out, but he’s still alive. Vasya and Romka have through and through lungs. They would be taken out, but the only corridor where you can get to them is a ditch overgrown with bushes, where the fur cannot see anything at all. So the poor BMP1 will dive there and after 2 seconds it will emerge from the other side and pick up the guys, and even throw up some zinc. But the 60-ton colossus will remain there forever, it just won’t be able to maneuver, and if it crawls out, it will waste time, and they’ll take Vasya and him away cold. But the crew is alive... Well.....
    Of course, I’m exaggerating a little, but really, by the time the “ahzarit” turns around, the BMP will already cover 1.5 kilometers.
    1. -3
      6 December 2012 22: 02
      TTX BMP-1:
      Length 6700 mm
      Width 2940 mm
      Height 2000 mm
      Specific power 22 hp. per ton

      TTX "Akhzarit"
      Length 6500 mm
      Width 3640 mm
      Height 2000 mm
      Specific power 19 hp. per ton

      Conclusion: "Akhzarit" and BMP-1 are the same in height. "Akhzarit" is 20 cm shorter, but 70 cm wider. The mobility of the vehicles is almost the same. But “Akhzarit” didn’t give a damn about DShK and old action RPGs
      1. 0
        7 December 2012 01: 52
        Well, why look for a jamb in my arguments and try to fit them to your point of view??? I gave quite a tangible introduction. There is a free corridor where it is not the resistance to ammunition pressure per square centimeter of armor that is important, but speed and maneuverability.
        And for the sake of objectivity, they could then provide data on weight, speed and time to turn 180 degrees, maximum speed and acceleration time to twenty, for example...
        1. -3
          7 December 2012 13: 44
          Quote: Hariva
          There is a free corridor where it is not the resistance to ammunition pressure per square centimeter of armor that is important, but speed and maneuverability


          I showed you that Akhzarit is almost identical to the BMP-1 in terms of mobility

          Quote: Hariva
          And for the sake of objectivity, they could then provide data on weight, speed and time to turn 180 degrees, maximum speed and acceleration time to twenty, for example...

          All indicators are higher than those of the T-55, which never suffered from poor mobility. Ahazarit has 19 hp. per ton. Engine power 850 hp
          1. Brother Sarych
            0
            7 December 2012 16: 36
            You might be surprised, but nothing like that was written here - simple specific power doesn’t mean anything...
            And the difference in width of 70 cm is also not so small...
      2. 0
        11 December 2012 09: 28
        It remains to voice the masses of cars. I don’t know how it is in Israel, but on the territory of the Russian Federation, the Akhzarit will be tied to a limited number of bridges and will require equal engineering support, like the main tanks.
  74. wow
    +3
    6 December 2012 20: 35
    With all due respect to the author, he is still mistaken. Armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles and other light armored vehicles are not intended for head-on combat, but to deliver manpower as close as possible to the site of direct combat while minimizing losses. And trying to drive an armored personnel carrier (infantry fighting vehicle, etc.) into the headquarters of an adversary and spit in his face is fraught with bad consequences.
  75. +1
    6 December 2012 21: 23
    What is this article for anyway??? Author, is this your first time on the site? Or is it your first time on the topic? Have you heard about the light, medium and heavy brigades that are going to be formed in the RF Armed Forces? BMPs on a single platform with the main tank are already being developed. It will be in a couple of years. Yes, I would like it to be yesterday, but only cats quickly make, and not military equipment, but their own kind. To quickly “slap it together” so that in five years it will be hopelessly outdated and without prospects for modernization?
    Well, a couple of years on: “Oh Israel, oh the USA. And naaaaas...” still have it. You should whine, but we should listen. I just don’t promise to gasp. hi
  76. pioneer
    0
    6 December 2012 22: 12
    Actually, we have aircraft armor for attack aircraft that could hold a 20 mm projectile. It’s just that every plant wants to be a monopolist in its own corner. A. Armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, according to the regulations, follow the tanks on the offensive.
    1. +1
      6 December 2012 23: 26
      Quote: pioneer
      Actually, we have aircraft armor for attack aircraft that could hold a 20 mm projectile.

      Titanium armored personnel carrier?
      Have you tried building them from platinum?
      1. 0
        6 December 2012 23: 43
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Have you tried building them from platinum?

        Unlike titanium, platinum is a relatively soft and heavy metal.
        1. PiP
          0
          7 December 2012 12: 02
          Probably talking about the cost...
  77. 0
    6 December 2012 22: 35
    ..... Film footage of paratroopers riding on armor serve as a silent reproach to the designers... here the author got excited, I hope not everyone, but alas, the majority don’t care.
    I was at Interpolitech, it's Scorpio. Everything seems to be normal, armored capsule, armored glass (ergonomics are a problem, well, that depends on who you are), but the front, i.e. The radiator and engine are open at the front. I ask the representatives
    -they just forgot to put it on display?
    - yes no we install it, at the request of the customer (the customer, not the soldier who will ride)
    Well, maybe I don’t understand, and this is a private example. But it's not right.
  78. 0
    6 December 2012 22: 46
    Again the cart is put before the horse. Any technique, any weapon must be created from a task! And not vice versa!
    What is required to wage local-scale wars with a high level of mobile anti-tank weapons? Powerful tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers? Monsters? Or will the fight against RPGs, ATGMs and explosive devices shift to a different plane? For example, will systems for guaranteed destruction of explosive devices and systems for intercepting missiles and shots be created?
    What is needed for a large-scale war on the level of World War II? When will hundreds of nuclear warheads explode? What armored vehicles will then be able to work as they should?
    Where are the verified specifications? Where are the calculations and calculations? Where is the verification and testing of individual samples in conditions close to combat?
    Such projects were created in the USSR, for example object 279. What now?
    You can rivet super tanks and super-duper armored personnel carriers, but how will they perform in practice?
    Once again - without a comprehensive, balanced scientific, coupled with practice, approach to the very problem of arming the Army with everything from small arms to nuclear missile carriers, any attempts to hastily close the niche and cut off money will be doomed to... riding on armored personnel carriers, purchasing outdated equipment and verbose excuses of responsible amateurs from the military-industrial complex.
    Time passes, money is lost, sawn away, and the Army, at its core, is still armed with equipment and weapons from the times of the USSR. What's next, people, what's next?..
  79. 0
    6 December 2012 22: 59
    Perhaps vulnerable infantry is a problem for infantry and not armored vehicles? By creating an armored bus, are we not shifting the problem from a sore head to a healthy one?
  80. mr.poops
    0
    6 December 2012 23: 08
    the problem of equipment is not only and not so much in its characteristics, but in the preparedness and tactical literacy of the father-commanders and, first of all, those who develop tactics for using equipment on the battlefield. And ideally, different equipment is needed, since no universal means has yet been invented that meets all tactical tasks and will never be invented, fortunately or unfortunately...
  81. mr.poops
    0
    6 December 2012 23: 25
    and two more kopecks, maybe I don’t have all the facts, but name at least one example when Israeli equipment traveled somewhere further than the Dutch Heights? Given the size of the theater of operations, they, in principle, do not have the task of transporting their forces anywhere. If we take the United States, even for local conflicts where the participation of equipment is relatively minimal, they have to use enormous forces to transport it to the place of hostilities, and most importantly, preparing for such actions takes them more than one month... Remember Kuwait, they allowed Saddam to seize the country and plunder her and only a few months later they entered into battle.
    1. -1
      6 December 2012 23: 31
      Maybe I don’t have all the facts, but name at least one example when Israeli equipment traveled somewhere further than the Dutch Heights?

      The IDF did not reach Cairo only 101 km and was stopped by the UN Security Council.
      1. +1
        6 December 2012 23: 37
        Professor,
        and to Beirut?
        1. +1
          6 December 2012 23: 43
          So you can get to Beirut by bike in a couple of hours, just 120 km. wink
          1. +2
            6 December 2012 23: 55
            Quote: professor
            So you can get to Beirut by bike in a couple of hours, only 120 km

            60 km/h on a bike?!!! Figase warriors!
      2. Cavas
        +4
        6 December 2012 23: 42
        Quote: professor
        The IDF did not reach Cairo only 101 km and was stopped by the UN Security Council

        Anyway, the fuel ran out, and I told Iza to take another canister, but no, I didn’t listen! laughing
      3. +2
        6 December 2012 23: 58
        Quote: professor
        The IDF did not reach Cairo only 101 km and was stopped by the UN Security Council.

        I don’t know how it is in Cairo, but in Moscow this is a given km. enjoys a certain reputation since the times of the USSR. To slow down there, well, you had to try really hard!
  82. Mr. Truth
    +1
    7 December 2012 00: 08
    You can’t put everyone on heavy infantry fighting vehicles. Expensive. Over there in the States, 80 percent of the infantry fight on their own, without armor at all.
    Although Russia must rivet at least 15 brigades.
    1. +2
      7 December 2012 02: 09
      Of course you won't jail. Why didn’t any bright mind come up with the idea of ​​supplying the army with 2 types of infantry fighting vehicles? Some are fast and maneuverable for reconnaissance and operational maneuvering, others are well armored for patrol and delivering HP to the front line?
      Expensive, would you say? Life is more valuable.
      1. Mr. Truth
        0
        7 December 2012 08: 43
        So, at least the 10th. Still expensive, very expensive.
        For Heavy formations, it’s better to rivet BMPs with tank protection.
        For ordinary infantry, a wheeled wheeler with a 14,5-mm round-trip and 155-mm blasting shells and a double V-hull is sufficient.
        And an infantry fighting vehicle that is easy to maneuver should have a BRM specially designed separately for this purpose.
        For patrolling, the Military Police are needed, not motorized riflemen.
        Quote: Hariva
        Expensive, would you say? Life is more valuable.

        tell this again to the Americans, their budget seems to be large, and a typical IBST in infantry battalions has nothing more than two dozen hummers. But insurance.
      2. +1
        9 December 2012 19: 07
        oh my, how smart everyone here is! well-armored infantry fighting vehicles are nothing more than a tank. and therefore they created an infantry fighting vehicle for specific purposes: fast, I emphasize FAST delivery of infantry and fire support
        1. +1
          9 December 2012 20: 21
          Quote: slav4ikus
          oh my, how smart everyone here is! well-armored infantry fighting vehicles are nothing more than a tank. and therefore they created an infantry fighting vehicle for specific purposes: fast, I emphasize FAST delivery of infantry and fire support

          Well, they delivered the infantry a couple of kilometers to the enemy, so what? Will the infantry go on foot? This is only possible if enemy artillery is suppressed and when tanks are already working in front. Heavy infantry fighting vehicles allow you to go on the attack together with tanks and land infantry directly under the enemy’s nose, and provide fire support more effectively; it’s interesting who will be hit by an armored personnel carrier located 3-4 km behind in positions. Everyone has already understood that an armored personnel carrier is the transportation of soldiers, but a heavy infantry fighting vehicle also has advantages, one of them is the landing of infantry to support tanks
  83. Vlados
    0
    7 December 2012 01: 01
    Aron Zaavi,
    We can only hope that the Windbreaker will be installed. drinks
  84. vladsolo56
    +5
    7 December 2012 13: 49
    As usual, some amateurs write about things they don’t understand, the vehicles listed above are not intended for direct combat. These are infantry delivery vehicles. and support for the same infantry in battle. do not confuse them with tanks. everyone has their own task. An infantry fighting vehicle weighing 40 tons and the height of a two-story house is nonsense. For infantry fighting vehicles and BRDMs, the main thing is speed and maneuverability, transfer of forces
    1. +2
      9 December 2012 19: 04
      I would give ten pluses, but there are no more)) none of these mediocrities know what BUSV is and, accordingly, have never read it
  85. +11
    7 December 2012 13: 51
    I gave the article and the author a minus. I can write for the sake of writing.

    What years are our developments of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles? What tasks were initially set for this technology? taking into account the old doctrine - the difference according to BUSV is in one word - accompaniment and support. At first, no one had such a vehicle as a BMP.

    BMP 3 is bad - the author's arguments to the studio. Have you seen her live?

    Nowadays, war in the form in which it was fought before rarely occurs and, accordingly, new equipment must be developed for it.

    As someone smart said, the crown of thought is execution.

    until our strategists develop their own concept in response to America’s network-centric wars (and alas, in this case they are ahead as legislators). New equipment for war will not appear.

    why write an article to draw the following conclusion.
    quote
    There are even more interesting projects in this promising direction - heavy armored vehicles BMPV-64 and BMT-72 have already been created in Ukraine (as you might guess, based on the T-64 and T-72 tanks). What development awaits armored vehicles next? Progress is moving in a spiral - perhaps “inadequate” 100-ton monsters will appear, which in a new round of historical development will again be replaced by light armored vehicles. And the infantry will continue to ride on armor.

    an infantryman fights on foot and not in an armored vehicle, and it’s easier for him to survive on the battlefield.
  86. Voin sveta82
    0
    8 December 2012 16: 02
    only apparently the author of the article himself ....))) and the soldiers ... always trusted these reliable ... machines.)
  87. airatt
    -2
    8 December 2012 19: 25
    at the expense of Israeli power, all this is advertising nonsense! Their iron dome turned out to be full of holes for homemade missiles! and the Merkava is the same farce during the war with Lebanon, our anti-tank guns burned them one after another, and when the number of burned tanks reached an indecent level, they labeled it “secret” so that no one finds out how many of them burned because they will stop buying them! And for BMD, weight is very important because BMD4 can fit 2 pieces in an airplane, and new platforms like the Kurgan and Boomerang initially assume a lot of weight! And there won’t be any in 2013, the tests last 2 3 years minimum! The BTR90 is a great thing! We need to develop light armor simply! We have our own plus for the armored personnel carrier - there are two exits from the sides, this saves when they get ambushed and the exit is from the rear, as ours want to copy from NATO, this is death in ambushes! The car should be fast and maneuverable so that it is difficult to get into it, and their vehicles are coffins, since our anti-tank guns and grenade launchers penetrate any armor! Do we need such coffins? BMPs and armored personnel carriers are a means of supporting soldiers and quickly transferring them, and the armor should protect against a maximum caliber of 30 mm!
    1. +1
      8 December 2012 20: 32
      Quote: airatt
      their iron dome turned out to be full of holes for homemade crayfish

      This should be written at the end, then perhaps the whole message will be read. When such nonsense is at the very beginning, you don’t have to read further -
      Quote: airatt
      Our birds burned them one by one

      Quote: airatt
      they marked it as “secret” so that no one would know how many of them were burned

      Quote: airatt
      you just need to develop light armor


      Quote: airatt
      Our guns and grenade launchers penetrate any armor

    2. +1
      8 December 2012 21: 45
      they marked it as “secret” so that no one would know how many of them were burned because they would stop buying

      The rest is breeeed fool I'm turning a deaf ear, but this is interesting. Who will stop buying them? wink
  88. Aodaliya_Ren
    +2
    9 December 2012 05: 53
    First, the official part: THE ISRAELIS ARE GREAT. Well done USA. OUR OFFICIALS ARE TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING. End of the official part.

    Now the lyrics. Regarding the kick from the Red Army at the beginning of the article. Tellingly, recall the memoirs of German tank crews about how they treated our tank commanders with contempt because ours were hiding in the tower, while the brave Aryans stuck their heads out for ease of observation and command, and the reaction of the many-wise community will be: “straightforward.” , the ducks didn’t know how to grow.” But immediately show a photo of our soldiers on their armor, and the reaction will be similar: “laughing.” And about the stray German bullets that inevitably knocked the soldiers off their armor and they fell under the tracks of a madly racing car (by the way, you won’t be able to fall under the tracks; by the time it falls, the car will be madly speeding away 50 meters).

    Calling the American M3 and M5 “half-track armored personnel carriers” and not mentioning that the M2 was originally intended as a tractor, and the armor on the hull (so that the letter “b” in the abbreviation armored personnel carrier does not look stupid) was added only in the late modification of the M3A1 is not so bad. . But only a great specialist in the field of military affairs could fail to notice the absolute vulnerability of the M3 even for small arms.

    M3 and M5 are precisely “personnel carriers” and tractors, that is, vehicles involved only in transporting personnel and military cargo to the site of the upcoming battle, but not for participating in the battle. (How many of them took part in the landing on Omaha Beach)?

    But all this, of course, is nonsense in comparison with another opportunity to kick the “careless Soviet commanders” and our eternal “maybe it will blow over.”
  89. airatt
    -1
    9 December 2012 14: 43
    On 25.08.06/30.08.06/XNUMX, Jane's published an article by Alon Ben-David, “Israeli armor fails to protect MBTs from ATGMs” (published in JDW on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX). It stated the following:

    50 Merkava tanks Mk.2/3/4 were hit, 21 of them (45%) were penetrated (actually 21 from 50 - 42% - O.G.).
    Of the 21 punctured in 10 cases there was no loss, in the remaining 11 cases the crew member 23 died.
    For comparison, in 1973, in 60% of ATGM hits, the armor was penetrated, often killing the entire crew. In 1982, for Merkava Mk.1 tanks, armor was penetrated in 45% of cases and crew losses decreased sharply.
    27.08.06/46/25.08.06 on the website ynet.co.il (with reference to the English newspaper Sandy Times) it was published that 30.08.06 tanks were damaged in Lebanon. XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX the article by Alon Ben-David “Israeli armor fails to protect” was published in Jane's MBTs from ATGMs” (printed in JDW on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX). It stated the following:

    50 Merkava tanks Mk.2/3/4 were hit, 21 of them (45%) were penetrated (actually 21 from 50 - 42% - O.G.).
    Of the 21 punctured in 10 cases there was no loss, in the remaining 11 cases the crew member 23 died.
    For comparison, in 1973, in 60% of ATGM hits, the armor was penetrated, often killing the entire crew. In 1982, for Merkava Mk.1 tanks, armor was penetrated in 45% of cases and crew losses decreased sharply.
    27.08.06 on the website ynet.co.il (with reference to the English newspaper Sandy Times) it was published that 46 tanks were damaged in Lebanon.

    and this is only a small part of what they themselves admitted! And if the militants knew the weak points where it is better to shoot and were more qualified in using anti-tank guided missiles, then the losses would be terrible!!! and before writing that something is nonsense, serve in the army! and the air defense They are complete bullshit, like all their weapons! The price/quality ratio is terrible!

    they love to do advertising because the arms industry is the only thing produced in this country!!!
    1. Vlados
      -3
      9 December 2012 15: 01
      1) Hezbollah fighters are quite well trained, they are trained in Iran and Syria, especially anti-tank units and infantry.
      2) They are armed, I would say, better than similar groups (Chechens, Hamas and in many ways bypass the Afghan militants of Al-Qaeda)
      3) The number of Hezbollah fighters in 2006 was several tens of thousands of fighters
      4) Most of the damaged tanks were Merkava 2-3, there were very few fours and with small losses among the crew, and this is without the Windbreaker.
      So before you talk about Hezbollah, read about them, today they own both air defense and Yakhont from Syria, but I’m generally silent about the quantity and quality of anti-tank stupidity.
      1. -2
        9 December 2012 15: 08
        Uh Vlados, don't feed the troll
        1. Vlados
          -2
          9 December 2012 15: 41
          You're right, I couldn't resist what
        2. -2
          9 December 2012 20: 26
          Quote: airatt
          the weapons industry is the only thing produced in this country

          I especially liked this =) The dude definitely doesn’t look at what vegetables he buys at the market and medicines at the pharmacy, for example
          1. -2
            10 December 2012 22: 47
            Quote: Rumata
            The dude definitely doesn’t look at what vegetables he buys at the market and medicines at the pharmacy, for example.

            What should I watch? Vegetables are either local or Chinese. Your medications? Don't make me laugh, gentlemen! “Your” drugs are drugs developed in other countries that have expired patent protection, produced by the enterprises you purchased. First, Eastern European ones, which still use Soviet technologies, and now, when they have accumulated some money, German and American ones. What are your production and technologies? Everyone knows that you have excellent technologies for making a profit from the resale (speculation) of other people's goods. And you got a heavy armored personnel carrier because you got a lot of tanks from the Arabs. It was a pity to throw it away, but now the fruits of - even if not greed - thrift are presented as the scope of engineering thought.
  90. 0
    9 December 2012 15: 07
    Uv. Vlados, don't feed the troll.
  91. airatt
    0
    9 December 2012 18: 13
    Gentlemen, the armies of the third world are very weak armies and the militants of the third world are even weaker, and in order to wield anti-tank guns professionally you need either a lot of them or training equipment to shoot, but you don’t understand this in the army you need to serve you! Yes, but what about the flag you have German
    1. Vlados
      0
      9 December 2012 18: 28
      but you don’t understand this in the army you need to serve,

      You're probably "Fierce" from the 9th company? wink
      Even if so, where do the conclusions come from about who served/did not serve where?
  92. 0
    9 December 2012 18: 59
    the author and many here do not flog the main feature of the infantry fighting vehicle and armored personnel carrier, it was created not to replace a tank on the battlefield, but for fast - I emphasize FAST DELIVERY of infantry to the right place on the battlefield, etc., as well as for fire support if necessary! and during the battle they are in firing positions to engage in battle as necessary. That's it, citizens: read the combat regulations, blah, kids at home 2. otherwise they'll go crazy, protection, armor, guns
    1. 0
      2 February 2018 14: 17
      Quote: slav4ikus
      read the combat regulations

      How this phrase got me throughout all the comments under this and the next article, the people who send me to read this damn charter are apparently officers who have never fought, because 90% of cases of real war are simply not described there, and those that are described in practice are solved completely other methods.
  93. 0
    11 December 2012 17: 35
    Why does the term “positive buoyancy” keep popping up?
    Who needs it so much? Tanks can do just fine without it. There is nothing more important than the lives of our soldiers.
    1. 0
      17 December 2012 19: 24
      because a tank can float underwater, but an infantry fighting vehicle or armored personnel carrier carries an entire compartment for many kilometers. Notice how the personnel will force the water obstacle? underwater or above water and in what form and for how long???
      1. 0
        2 February 2018 14: 20
        Quote: slav4ikus
        because a tank can float underwater, but an infantry fighting vehicle or armored personnel carrier carries an entire compartment for many kilometers. Notice how the personnel will force the water obstacle? underwater or above water and in what form and for how long???

        So, in your opinion, three people (crew) inside a tank can survive, but 8-13 people will die immediately? fool And what does transporting troops and crossing rivers have to do with it anyway? How does one interfere with the other? hi
  94. 0
    16 December 2012 17: 45
    Yes, our MLTB can’t even hold training explosive packages

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9XG0V3TGg4
  95. 0
    16 December 2012 17: 46
    Yes, our MLTB can’t even hold training explosive packages

    1. 0
      17 December 2012 19: 22
      Yes, because MTLB is a multi-purpose tractor and not a combat vehicle! and the fact that some distant person saw it in combat is not from great intelligence, but from ignorance of the realities of war in mountain conditions: with such cross-country ability in the mountains, God himself ordered them to be used - and why not equip them with something more serious than a standard fart like a memory or AGS. Is it clear, illiterate gentlemen?
  96. Weterok
    0
    9 January 2013 13: 11
    People! Why are you bothering with your heavy infantry fighting vehicles? Our designers came up with a way out - a column - means of fire suppression and support for tanks and self-propelled guns, shilkas .... and the infantry will be in typhoon-type vehicles ...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVJ7bmxl0Ko
    1. Mrgangster
      +1
      19 February 2013 20: 34
      hmm, are you 100% sure that the typhoon will be put into service? I personally am sure that a maximum of 50 of them will be made, and everyone else will continue to ride in URALs
  97. 0
    9 February 2014 13: 19
    Quote: beech
    war is a loss, it is inevitable, of course it is necessary to take care that there are no unnecessary casualties, but mobility should not suffer !!! MB in Israel heavy BMPs is an option, but we have our own specifics - few bridges can withstand 30+ tons, dirt in Russia is usually eaten and a heavy BMP is unlikely to creep in. I believe that the BMP3, BMD4M and BTR82 in principle suit the Russian army, I hope the Kurgan. ... will become much better, but I would not want them to turn into all sorts of azarchites, although it is worth keeping several parts in reserve on armored vehicles!
    This is my personal opinion, I do not impose it on anyone, so please do not water the mud!

    Agree! When I was serving, they asked the lieutenant colonel, our commander, why our tanks are on average 15-20 tons lighter than the enemy’s, because of this there is less armor. He answered us simply - we have such a climate and soil that heavier tanks would simply get bogged down. As explained, 40-45 tons is optimal. (it was a big country).
  98. 0
    21 January 2023 07: 55
    I agree with the author of the article 100%! Just as we rode the armor, we continue to ride. Our army needs a well-protected infantry fighting vehicle. The T-15 BMP is best suited for this role.

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