Military Review

Turkey, "Patriots" and political adventures

32
While in Syria itself, fighting continues between the armed forces and the rebel formations, very interesting things are happening near the borders of this country. A few days ago, a commission composed of experts from NATO countries arrived at the Turkish-Syrian border. The purpose of the commission’s work, according to official data, is to select sites for the deployment of anti-aircraft missile systems MIM-104 Patriot. At first glance, nothing special: Turkey enters NATO and therefore can count on military-technical assistance from foreign allies. However, reports of the departure of the commission and its goals immediately became the object of close attention. First, it is planned to deploy the “Patriots” on the border with Syria, where the civil war has been going on for the second year. Secondly, Turkey supports the Syrian rebel detachments and is at enmity with official Damascus. Even these two facts are quite capable of directing certain thoughts.

Turkey, "Patriots" and political adventures


Obviously, Ankara understands possible logical constructions and therefore Turkish officials immediately explained the reasons for preparing to deploy anti-aircraft complexes. Official statements of Turkey are as follows: the Syrian civil war entered a stage in which it was impossible to predict further events. Therefore, not wanting to be embroiled in an armed conflict, Turkey intends to "fence off" from a possible attack. In addition, the MIM-104 SAM system will be able to protect the Turkish population from a hypothetical Syrian chemical weapons. In general, the administration of President A. Gul and Prime Minister R.Т. Erdogan calls the "Patriots" a purely defensive weapon. Such statements seem plausible enough. But there is reason for doubt.

The official version of Ankara raises claims, primarily in the light of the position regarding the Syrian war. Turkey supports the rebels, and the Syrian army has several times declared direct assistance to insurgents, including weapons, to which it provided evidence. From this it follows that anti-aircraft complexes at the border can be used not only for their defense, but also for other military purposes. Such a goal, for example, could be to provide a no-fly zone, as was the case last year in Libya. The MIM-104 complex is capable of firing aerodynamic targets at distances up to 80 kilometers, which allows you to "close" a large strip of Syrian territory near the border. At the same time, Patriot’s anti-missile capabilities provide for interception of targets at much shorter ranges, which may serve as yet another proof of Turkey’s unkind intentions.

Meanwhile, Turkey’s NATO allies are already expressing their willingness to help with the organization of air defense and missile defense. Germany has already indicated the possibility of temporarily transferring two batteries (up to eight launchers in each), and the Netherlands may allocate one battery. The rest of the NATO countries so far are only considering the need for assistance to the ally. Probably they are being stopped by unclear prospects. If Turkey nevertheless decides to enter the war and use the rented anti-aircraft systems for its own purposes, then countries that share equipment may be in an ambiguous position. In this case, the status of the transferred anti-aircraft systems will raise serious questions. If Turkey will keep the received "Patriots" only on duty in order to ensure its own security, such a transfer will remain an internal affair of the NATO bloc. If the Turks are going to make a no-fly zone, then this, like any other sanction against an independent country, will require special permission from the UN Security Council. Accordingly, Ankara’s attempts to “close” the Syrian sky for state flights aviation without a resolution, the Security Council will to some extent hit the reputation of the countries that transferred their complexes. It is unlikely that any of the leaders of the leading NATO countries wants Turkey to realize its geopolitical ambitions at their expense.

True, the Turks can really use the rented "Patriots" for protection. Only they will not protect civilian facilities and infrastructure, but militant caravans. As is known, most of the destroyed caravans, marching across the Turkish-Syrian border, were discovered and attacked by aviation. In addition, the current civil war has a characteristic feature: armed rebels shortly after crossing the border can disperse in any locality and "disappear." So the task of disrupting and stopping the supply of rebels from abroad, in the first place, lies with the aviation of the Syrian armed forces. Thus, MIM-104 from Turkish territory can cover militant caravans, protecting them from attacks by Syrian government aviation.

Yet the most likely scenario is that Ankara’s attempt to enter the war on the side of the insurgents and, relying on the help of NATO allies, gain control over Syria through a puppet government brought to power. However, in this case, Turkey will have to look for new reasons for entering into conflict. For example, the method used by NATO during the war in Libya with the creation of a no-fly zone and the subsequent destruction of almost the entire military infrastructure will no longer work. According to NATO representatives, in Libya their troops acted exclusively in accordance with the decision of the UN Security Council. Now, obtaining such a permit will be a very, very difficult process. A number of countries with the right of veto are fully capable of using it and blocking attempts to impose any sanctions against Syria aimed at supporting rebel formations.

It is noteworthy that the possible transfer of anti-aircraft complexes causes claims in Turkey itself. For example, the expert of Bilkent University, Klorai Gurbuz, in his recent interview with Golos Rossii, noted the absence of any benefits in renting a Patriot. Since, most likely, the management of the complexes will be carried out by Americans, British or Israelis, the likelihood of benefits for Turkey itself is significantly reduced. In addition, the placement of air defense missile systems on Turkish territory can lead to complications in relations with neighboring countries. By the words of Gurbuz, it is worth adding the possibility of diplomatic problems with countries that have good relations with Syria. In general, for Turkey, the deployment of anti-aircraft complexes can have both beneficial and harmful consequences, and no one can yet predict how things will go in one way or another.

As you can see, the Turkish leadership risks falling into a difficult situation. He will have to choose between geopolitical ambitions and the foreign policy image of his country. In addition, the NATO countries are still only expressing their views on the civil war in Syria and are not going to start a peacekeeping operation yet. All these NATO actions are very similar to an attempt to predict the possible development of the situation and not to get into another adventure. This is probably why so far only two countries have agreed to transfer their anti-aircraft complexes to Turkey.


On the materials of the sites:
http://rus.ruvr.ru/
http://lenta.ru/
http://ria.ru/
Author:
32 comments
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  1. YARY
    YARY 5 December 2012 08: 57
    +5
    not going to start a peacekeeping operation

    This is actually called aggression.
    The author should put political "emphasis" more clearly
    they’ll write in Tolerast.
    1. Leonid
      Leonid 5 December 2012 21: 26
      -1
      The range of Patriot missiles installed in Turkey is limited to 16 km (instead of 80)! So this is a purely defensive weapon. These missiles in NATO are the United States, Holland and Germany.
      1. Poppy
        Poppy 6 December 2012 16: 33
        +1
        And who checks this restriction? Or are you enough words?
  2. dirty trick
    dirty trick 5 December 2012 09: 00
    0
    the Turkish prime minister seems to have bitten a bit and rushed forward, despite the consequences for his country.
  3. Yarbay
    Yarbay 5 December 2012 09: 16
    -4
    Dear Cyril, I always read you with interest, but this time I did not understand you !!
    From the first lines, write about the possibility that the Patriots will be used for defense, Then explain your position for a long time and write that there is reason for doubt! Then, turning on the logic, you yourself refute your doubts, but write again that it’s likely that Turkey will fight !!
    I'm just shocked by you !!
    Then write about the provided Patriots, forgetting that Turkey is a member of NATO !!
    And all the NATO member states decided to help the Turkish Air Defense Patriots !!
    Now check how many block countries these systems have !!
    ** This is probably why only two countries have so far agreed to transfer their anti-aircraft systems to Turkey. ** - and how many countries should have been allocated ??The decision by NATO countries has already been made!
    And the fact that specialists from Germany and the USA will manage these systems will already be known!
    Understand how much you need and allocate and allocate, those to whom they say what should be allocated!
    I put a minus to your article!
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 5 December 2012 10: 24
      +7
      Yarbei, you judge by the meaning, by the general message. In this post, you put a minus on the basis of nagging about details, and very insignificant. And the general message of the article is as simple as a felt boot - the author simply expresses doubts that the systems supplied to the Turks are intended for defense. It is even possible that to provide a no-fly zone on part of Syria. will knock down Syrian planes over Syria itself and declare that Syrian planes have violated the state border of Turkey, only after the violator is hit, the engines are resurrected for a while, and the pilot can resurrect for a while, but only to return to his native land and fall there already finally. So the defense, purely only the defense of the territory of Turkey will be there. Fox News won't tell you that. He will tell you that the Syrian plane flew to bomb Russia, but Turkey, for friendly reasons, intercepts this plane over Istanbul by the "patriots", after which the downed plane reaches Latakia and crashes there. Russia, you are saved by Turkey! Applause!
      Less to you, Yarbey. I understand your pro-Turkish sentiments, the Turks are your allies in your struggle against the powerful and evil empire of Armenia, but it would be nice to include just objectivity. In other words, tell me directly, yes I see an objective picture, but I am for Turkey, condemn me if you want. Yes, no one will blame, they do not judge for honesty. Judged for the lies and the fact that the fool does not see the obvious -))))
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 5 December 2012 10: 37
        -5
        Quote: aksakal

        Yarbey, you judge by the meaning, by the general premise

        Listen based on these details and the article is written !!
        Why then write your conclusions that do not coincide with the final conclusions !!
        Quote: aksakal
        . And the general message of the article is as simple as boots - the author simply expresses doubts that the systems supplied to the Turks are intended for defense
        but why, if Turkey does not manage these systems ???

        Quote: aksakal
        Oye is even possible
        If there were cubs, then beans would grow in the mouth !! And the author himself logically refutes this!

        Quote: aksakal
        Less to you, Yarbey.

        Your right and that's okay !! Actually, Yarbai)))
        Quote: aksakal
        I understand your pro-Turkish mood,

        I think you do not understand))) I am against Turkey’s support for all sorts of trash in Syria, but I understand the roots of this decision!
        Quote: aksakal
        Turks are your allies in your struggle against the powerful and evil empire of Armenia, but still it would be nice to include just objectivity.
        Turks are historical enemies for you, so you should include objectivity, and not drive the blizzard of Turkey’s imaginary, possible aggression! Turks are my brothers, but not Erdogany and politicians, and I am completely objective!
        Where I can’t be objective, I don’t comment!
        1. aksakal
          aksakal 5 December 2012 13: 40
          +2
          Quote: Yarbay
          Listen on the basis of these details and the article is composed !! Why then write your conclusions that do not coincide with the final conclusions !!

          Yarbai, nevertheless, the general meaning of this is we suspect that ... and further suspicions, but not accusations. Accusations can only be made upon the act. I just saw it in the article, I don’t focus on the details here. And with suspicions (not with accusations!) I agree. The author simply gives all the logical factors, so as not to miss anything. He does not want to miss the fact that the Germans will control the systems, and this just says that the patriots are set up really for defense, otherwise the top of the Bundeswehr will get nuts on the house. But the author rightly says, like, yes, I see all this, maybe I'm wrong, but I have such suspicions. What is the logic here? A person has the right to suspicions and, at the same time, cites other facts for objectivity. What is the minus?
          Quote: Yarbay
          but why, if Turkey does not manage these systems ??

          Yarbai, this is precisely the circumstance that reinforces my suspicions. Turkey does not want war, and rightly so. Erdogan does not want responsibility for unleashing the war, and he is very right. Ok, guys, we put patriots, these patriots will be UNDER OUR CONTROL, and we ourselves will decide when Turkey is in danger. We are confident that Turkey is in danger whenever a Syrian military aircraft approaches Turkey's borders by less than 100 km, and this automatically removes the blame from Turkey and personally from Erdogan in the most deplorable case - what if Assad will not tolerate such a flagrant violation of his sovereignty countries bypassing the UN and go like a drill? It is unlikely, of course, but I would have gone a drill instead of Assad, we came to the sad conclusion on the next branch - Assad has resources, but they are only wasted and are not replenished in any way, the militants have an excellent pipeline of supplies of fresh meat and new, more and more perfect weapons. So it's all the same to die - well, at least with a song! Or start negotiations on the resignation of powers and guarantees right now - the British have mentioned this, which means it is possible. The worst thing is to die like Amanita. It's somehow humiliating to die at the hands of this filth. Then it's better at the hands of a worthy opponent - at least the Turkish army. And go down in history not as a victim of an incomprehensible (for distant historians -))) rebellion, but as a commander in a battle with a neighboring strong power. And in general - Assad would do a good service to everyone with such a death - then any state in the neighborhood with which either the hegemon or the subhegemonists decided to build a "spring" will think 10 times before rushing to help this "spring". And about the Germans, who will be threatened by nuts at home - NATO will settle this issue, don't worry about them. Yes, then it will be revealed that they unreasonably shot down Syrian planes, we repent. And that's it. How they "repent" now for the non-existent nuclear weapons of Iraq. I would also "repent" like that - first steal a billion, then strengthen my social status, and become already inaccessible for retaliation, to repent, and supposedly, guilty, guilty, sorry, stole. Yes, I would even cry! Honestly!
          Quote: Yarbay
          I think you do not understand))) I am against Turkey’s support for all sorts of trash in Syria, but I understand the roots of this decision!

          - share it. Assad's departure? Does Assad agree with your conclusions? As the incumbent head of state, he has the right to ignore any other opinions.
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 5 December 2012 15: 35
            0
            Quote: aksakal
            What is the logic here?

            I gave the above arguments on this subject, it is enough to read the text, the author refutes my doubts, but again, making a CONCLUSION, it comes to the conclusion that he himself logically refuted!
            That is, without leaving any arguments for himself, I made a type conclusion because I think so !!
            Then why write all this ??

            Quote: aksakal
            Erdogan does not want responsibility for starting a war, and he is very right.

            The fact of the matter is that Erdogan may and may want, but he does not have such opportunities for various reasons - this is my opinion, maybe subjective, but I have enough arguments!

            Quote: aksakal
            Worst of all is to perish like Amanita. Somehow humiliating to die at the hands of this scum.
            I agree !!! But the time comes when it is no longer a matter of choice, but a matter of courage!
            Quote: aksakal
            Then it’s better at the hands of a worthy opponent - at least the Turkish army.

            I think it is unlikely!
            Quote: aksakal
            then any state in the neighborhood with which either the hegemon or the subhegemonists decided to build a "spring" will think 10 times before rushing to help this "spring
            An original vision of the problem and its solutions in the style of Basayev!
            An interesting thought without irony!

            Quote: aksakal
            share it. Assad's departure? Does Assad agree with your conclusions? As the incumbent head of state, he has the right to ignore any other opinions.

            I did not understand the question!
            Apparently you misunderstood my answer !!
            I meant that I am against supporting this scum in Syria, but I understand why Turkey supports and why people in Turkey are against the Assad regime!
          2. Sandov
            Sandov 5 December 2012 22: 11
            0
            Quote: aksakal
            Yes, later it will be revealed that they unreasonably shot down Syrian planes, we repent. And that's it. How they "repent" now for the non-existent nuclear weapons of Iraq. I would also "repent" like that - first steal a billion, then strengthen my social status, and become already inaccessible for retaliation, to repent, and supposedly, guilty, guilty, sorry, stole. Yes, I would even cry! Honestly!

            That's right, for this the NATO team drove the equipment. Do not wash it so that the pass-kud-nicks want to achieve their goal.
    2. Ascetic
      Ascetic 5 December 2012 16: 18
      +8
      Yarbay,

      Patriots need NATO to organize no-fly zone over Syria and to ensure external aggression. This is a serious weapon directed against serious challenges, which Syria itself cannot throw to anyone, including and Turkey.
      Patriot perform the functions of intercepting and destroying not only aerodynamic targets in the form of aircraft, but also ballistic missiles, that is, they can be used as a means of missile defense. Plus, Turkey has already been given a mobile radar missile defense system with the phased array AN / TPY-2, which is part of the information and reconnaissance component of the global ballistic missile interception system created by the United States. Do not forget about the American nuclear weapons in Turkey.
      And this is already directly related to Russian strategic defense. . Therefore, Russia and shows high concern for these processes.
      All these things will naturally be taken under vigilant observation and the sight of no less serious arguments which Russia possesses. Erdogan thinks that if he decides something in the country without looking back at America, he should think - is it worth going to a shootout with knives?
      Once again, I will repeat the joke that is very suitable for this problem in our relations with Turkey
      At a disco in Germany, a Russian in a T-shirt with the inscription: "The Turks have three problems." TO
      The Turk immediately comes up to him and asks:
      - What are you doing? Are you looking for problems? Do you want to run over?
      - It Your first problem. Aggressiveness. You are always trying to create
      problems from scratch. When the disco ends, then the Russian is already
      grouping up
      Turks.
      “Now you will answer for your words,” they say.
      - This is your second problem. You cannot solve your problems yourself(hello to Erdogan) and immediately
      gather yours for any reason.
      - But how dare you talk to us like that!?! - Turks snatched up knives ...
      “This is your third problem,” the Russian continues. - You always come on
      gunfight with knives.
      (with Patriots vs. Iskanders)
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 5 December 2012 16: 35
        -3
        Quote: Ascetic
        Patriots are needed by NATO to organize a no-fly zone over Syria and to ensure external aggression.

        Stanislav is nothing but your thoughts attached!
        And the rest, especially the joke, you wrote 10 times!
        But yesterday you did not answer either Metin or me on the S-300 ??
        This is a frivolous weapon, by the way, if I am not mistaken, you wrote yesterday that Patriot is a weak weapon?
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 5 December 2012 19: 35
          +3
          Quote: Yarbay
          Did you write yesterday that Patriot is a weak weapon?


          Read by all means, Alibek, by definition I could not write such nonsense.
          Americans need to cover their strategic base on the island of Diego Garcia
          from our strategic nuclear forces and our bases in the Middle East, as they say, kill one hare. By the way, the Caribbean crisis also began with the deployment of missiles in Turkey.


          Quote: Yarbay
          Stanislav is nothing but your thoughts attached!

          And here is the second hare

          US Senate recommends Obama introduce no-fly zone over Syria
          The US Senate recommended that President Barack Obama explore the possibility of military intervention in the conflict in Syria and the introduction of no-fly zone over this country.

          And when Patriot complexes will be in Turkey, they will be able to create a virtually no-fly zone (at least a hundred kilometers south) over northern Syria. After that, the West and the monarchies of the Persian Gulf supporting the opponents of Assad can only recognize this zone as "liberated" from government troops - and the "Syrian Benghazi", as in the case of Libya, has already been created. Well, the further course of events will become only a “matter of technology” - the Syrian rebels, having gained a solid rear, will rush to Damascus. And there, foreign special forces will arrive in time ...
      2. Leonid
        Leonid 5 December 2012 21: 32
        -3
        Sorry, but you get into a topic that you don’t really understand. Better deal with your Avkaztsey who do not put you in anything!
  4. Lech e-mine
    Lech e-mine 5 December 2012 09: 20
    +8
    Following the logic of TURKS, IRAN HAS THE FULL RIGHT TO PLACE air defense and missile defense systems at its borders - there are occasional flights of US, Israeli, and Qatar UAVs over their territory.
    1. Blackscorp
      Blackscorp 5 December 2012 09: 47
      +4
      I think, following their logic, we can throw something to both Syria and Iran ....
    2. Yarbay
      Yarbay 5 December 2012 10: 56
      -4
      Quote: Leha e-mine
      Following the logic of TURKS, IRAN HAS THE FULL RIGHT TO PLACE air defense and missile defense systems at its borders - there are occasional flights of US, Israeli, and Qatar UAVs over their territory.

      Hello!
      Yesterday, a very correct remark was made by tequinoral (Metin), following the logic of yours and the author that Syria and Iran have S-300 divisions for armament, and for a long time this has said and is saying that these countries were preparing an invasion of Turkey !!
      Why are you not objective ??
      Why is the placement of the same funds on the Turkish border is normal for other countries, and if Turkey places it even under the supervision of specialists from other countries, is there a catch ??
      1. Blackscorp
        Blackscorp 5 December 2012 14: 08
        +4
        Alibek, hello!
        Here is a little different logic. Firstly, Turkey has every reason and it is its right to deploy any weapon that does not contradict international treaties on its territory .... no one argues with this. It’s just that there are double standards again: Turkey can deploy air defense systems, and the same systems cannot be delivered to Syria and Iran.
        And secondly, it is only said that these systems (Patriot) can be used (theoretically) to create without a flight zone over Syria ... that's all ....
        Personally, it’s not clear to me what are they going to shoot down with them? Who is threatening them?
        1. Beck
          Beck 5 December 2012 14: 35
          -10
          Quote: BlackScorp
          Turkey can deploy an air defense system, but such systems cannot be delivered to Syria and Iran.


          Turkey is a secular, democratic state and there is no civil war in Turkey.

          Syria does not supply weapons because there is a dictatorial regime and a civil war is going on.

          Weapons are not supplied to Iran because there is in power obscurantist, orthodox power of reactionary ayatollahs. And therefore, as Iranian officials have repeatedly stated. What needs to be established in the world A NEW ISLAMIC ORDER, what needs to be wiped off the face of the earth Israel, that Jews must be sunk in the sea, that you must first kill the great Satan (USA), then the small (Russia).

          That is why bans were placed on the supply of weapons to these countries. In Turkey, what is in Syria and Iran, no.
          1. Blackscorp
            Blackscorp 5 December 2012 15: 17
            +5
            Quote: Beck
            Syria does not supply weapons because there is a dictatorial regime and a civil war is going on.


            And where did you get that dictatorial regime in Syria? When explaining, I ask you not to use the crap hysteria of the West ..... And in this case, what is the regime in Kazakhstan? And where did you get that civil war is going on in Syria? Do you think the struggle of the country's armed forces with mercenaries is a civil war?

            Quote: Beck
            And therefore, as Iranian officials have repeatedly stated. What needs to be established in the world A NEW ISLAMIC ORDER, what needs to be wiped off Israel, what needs to be drowned in the sea, what needs to be slaughtered first is large Satan (USA), then small (Russia).


            Do you know that Zbigniew Brzezinski, for example, regularly declared and declares about the USSR and Russia? Maybe let's hit the United States, judging by his words, he is also an Orthodox and Russophobe, huh? You can say anything you want .... You can not say anything, but do .... You can say a lot and do a lot like the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan, but you can say and not do ..... And about the small Satan was talking about Khomeini about the USSR and not about Russia (why did he say that and what he meant by look in smart books).

            So before you write, try to approach this matter is not biased and objective ....
            1. Beck
              Beck 5 December 2012 16: 37
              -7
              Quote: BlackScorp
              And where did you get that dictatorial regime in Syria?


              If 30 thousand people died this is not a civil war. Recently, a message flashed that Syria submitted to the UN documents of 143 foreigners killed in Syria, such as mercenaries. We increase this figure by ten, these are those mercenaries who died without documents. A total of 1430 mercenaries killed. Subtracting them from 30 thousand, we get 28 570 killed. Round up to 25. So who are these killed 000 thousand? Is it really all Assad soldiers. The people are not fighting in Syria. Or are these aliens. The question is insoluble, unless you admit that there is a civil war in Syria with those killed on either side.

              Quote: BlackScorp
              And in this case, what is the regime in Kazakhstan?


              The same as in Russia - Authoritarian.

              Quote: BlackScorp
              Do you know that Zbigniew Brzezinski, for example, regularly declared and declares about the USSR and Russia?


              In my opinion, Brzezinski previously opposed the Communists, and now against authoritarian regimes.

              Quote: BlackScorp
              And about small Satan, so Khomeini spoke about the USSR, and not about Russia


              It makes no difference to me in what guise my head will be cut off. Under the guise of a Soviet citizen or under the guise of a citizen of the Eurasian Union.

              Bias as a phenomenon certainly exists. But the paradox is that we can never discover this bias in ourselves. So the human psyche is arranged.
              1. Blackscorp
                Blackscorp 5 December 2012 17: 31
                +4
                Quote: Beck
                If 30 thousand people died this is not a civil war.
                ...
                Quote: Beck
                So who are these killed 25 thousand? Is it really all Assad soldiers.


                It seems to me that in Syria there is simply aggression (or the overthrow of the legitimate government by the forces of foreign mercenaries with the support of a handful of the local fifth column and radical Islamists ... well, of course, if you take it in general and is very enlarged .... There is no civil war there .... The main victims in this case are civilians who died as a result of terrorist attacks, simply killings of citizens supporting a legitimate authority, and of course the people who died during the fighting, because they are in settlements ...
                Quote: Beck
                The same as in Russia - Authoritarian.


                So, the Syrian regime is rather close to the Russian and Kazakhstan, rather than dictatorial.
                Quote: Beck
                In my opinion, Brzezinski previously opposed the Communists, and now against authoritarian regimes.


                Basically, he opposed the USSR and now Russia, to authoritarian regimes, he ...
                Quote: Beck
                It makes no difference to me in what guise my head will be cut off. Under the guise of a Soviet citizen or under the guise of a citizen of the Eurasian Union.

                Do not worry, they will not cut .... This theory is a thing of the past, along with communist ideology and the USSR
                1. Blackscorp
                  Blackscorp 5 December 2012 17: 58
                  +1
                  The person putting minuses justify the position ......
                  1. Yarbay
                    Yarbay 5 December 2012 19: 53
                    -1
                    Quote: BlackScorp
                    The person putting minuses justify your position

                    Although I do not agree with everything, I put a plus))))
                2. Beck
                  Beck 5 December 2012 18: 00
                  0
                  Quote: BlackScorp
                  Do not worry, they will not cut


                  Well, it’s good that they won’t cut it. And it's good that we talked well. Without any excesses there.
                  1. Blackscorp
                    Blackscorp 5 December 2012 18: 46
                    0
                    I agree, thanks for the discussion drinks
                3. PARTISAN
                  PARTISAN 5 December 2012 18: 33
                  0
                  I put a plus and completely agree with you.
            2. Yarbay
              Yarbay 5 December 2012 18: 00
              -1
              Quote: BlackScorp

              And where did you get that dictatorial regime in Syria?

              You probably don’t know, but the martial law, according to which many freedoms were limited, was canceled only this year, and before that 25 years the country lived like that !!
              The war began and martial law was canceled!
          2. Dimon Lviv
            Dimon Lviv 5 December 2012 17: 37
            +2
            Beck, I have a question for you.
            because there is a dictatorial regime
            - why dictatorships of Qatar, Jordan, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia can deliver weapons, despite the fact that they disperse demonstrations, kill demonstrators, violate human rights (for example, in Saudi Arabia women are supposed to punish themselves with lashes - according to their LAWS), and secular Syria, against which there is no UN sanction, you can’t even supply defensive weapons — air defense systems, radar systems, communications equipment?
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay 5 December 2012 18: 02
              -2
              Quote: Dimon Lviv
              why dictatorial Qatar, Jordan, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia can supply weapons

              What does it mean? Of course you can’t, but you can’t say that you are helping that dictator, then neither is our dictator !!
              You want to be objective ??
            2. Beck
              Beck 5 December 2012 18: 17
              -2
              Quote: Dimon Lviv
              why dictatorial Qatar, Jordan, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia can supply weapons


              I’ve already spoken about this on a page. But. In my opinion. and you know that mine is only personal. Qatar, Jordan, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia are constitutional monarchies. According to the constitution, the king is not elected there, and power is inherited. This is of course an anachronism. But like that. The lack of elections certainly warps the West. But there are no international laws prohibiting relations with constitutional monarchies. And who can say that the people themselves do not want to live like this. Only the people themselves. And while he is silent, there are certainly demonstrations, but not the scale of Syria. Now, if in these monarchies the people massively, as in Syria, stand for elections, as in Syria, and the monarchs start bombing their people, as in Syria, then the West will certainly impose a ban on the supply of weapons and support the peoples both financially and morally.

              Syria has never been a secular state. Forty years ago, Hafez al-Assad seized power by the coup and transferred it to her son, Bashar, about ten years ago. But Syria was not a constitutional monarchy. And the people demanded free elections. Assad began to bomb.

              That’s my whole story. But this is mine. Another person may have something else.
        2. Yarbay
          Yarbay 5 December 2012 15: 22
          0
          Quote: BlackScorp
          It’s just that there are double standards again: Turkey can deploy air defense systems, and the same systems cannot be delivered to Syria and Iran.

          So they already have such systems !!
          And let's see why all the neighbors of these countries also do not want this ???
          Why is not one neighbor supporting these countries ??
          Quote: BlackScorp
          And secondly, it is only said that these systems (Patriot) can be used (theoretically) to create without a flight zone over Syria ... that's all ....

          Listen, in your opinion is it so difficult to do for NATO ??
          They don’t even have to discuss it at the UN! The UN is already zero without a stick !!
          Only the position of Russia and China holds them back from this !!
          Until this position of any no-fly zone changes, they will not try to do it!
          Perhaps they have already agreed with Russia, then I agree with what the author writes!
          Quote: BlackScorp
          Personally, it’s not clear to me what are they going to shoot down with them? Who is threatening them?

          My personal opinion is that the bigger question is to put pressure on Syria and Iran at the same time !!
          1. Blackscorp
            Blackscorp 5 December 2012 15: 59
            +1
            Quote: Yarbay
            So they already have such systems !!


            Who supplied and how many pieces?
            Quote: Yarbay
            And let's see why all the neighbors of these countries also do not want this ???


            What kind of neighbors are against? Azerbaijan, Israel and the monarchy of the bay? and the rest I don’t think ....
            Quote: Yarbay
            Listen, in your opinion is it so difficult to do for NATO ??
            They don’t even have to discuss it at the UN! The UN is already zero without a stick !!


            I think it’s not difficult, but why take off planes, the losses incurred by air defense, when you can land Syrian aircraft from the territory of Turkey and Israel by the Patriots .... Plus, as an option, you can use them in case of a Syrian response ....
            Quote: Yarbay
            My personal opinion is that the bigger question is to put pressure on Syria and Iran at the same time !!


            Here I fully agree with you ...
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay 5 December 2012 16: 40
              -1
              Quote: BlackScorp
              Who supplied and how many pieces?

              In Iran, in my opinion, there are two divisions of Chinese counterparts and there is one Russian S-300! You can see in the pictures of the parade, if not, I’ll give you a shot !!
              Russia also sent to Syria !!
              Quote: BlackScorp
              What kind of neighbors are against?

              Yes, all the neighbors!
              You tell me the neighbors who supply or at least support these modes!
              Understand that you live far away and do not personally encounter! We perfectly see the grins of these modes and constantly feel !!
      2. Ascetic
        Ascetic 5 December 2012 19: 38
        +1
        Quote: Yarbay
        For yours and the author, Syria and Iran have S-300 divisions for armaments and for a long time it has said and is saying that these countries were preparing an invasion of Turkey !!


        S-300 systems are air defense systems, and Patriot can already be used as one of the elements of not only air defense but missile defense. S-400 neither Syria nor Iran have
    3. knn54
      knn54 6 December 2012 19: 43
      0
      Fair. Russia (see the Caribbean crisis) has a reason to place the Iskanders in Cuba.
  5. HUMANOID
    HUMANOID 5 December 2012 09: 28
    0
    Russia only needs to cover up tourism and trade and Turkey will slide into a large hole. So, on the site of Erdogan, I would think
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 5 December 2012 10: 41
      +3
      Quote: HUMANOID
      Russia only needs to cover up tourism and trade and Turkey will slide into a large hole. So, on the site of Erdogan, I would think

      you exaggerate your influence on the Turkish economy, you can cause small troubles, but no more. You’re already tired of seeing this stupid stereotype among the majority of citizens of the Russian Federation that almost the entire budget of Turkey is formed due to Russian tourists. For a start, look at the budget of Turkey and the share there Russian tourists.
      1. Green
        Green 5 December 2012 11: 04
        +2
        And most importantly, Russian tourists wanted to sneeze on all the prohibitions and warnings and go wherever they want, including Egypt, which is surrounded by revolution. There is no alternative to Turkish resorts for the money, and this is the only opportunity for most poor citizens to somehow relax and swim in the warm sea. In Sochi, only very VERY wealthy citizens can afford to relax. There are much more German tourists in Turkey, they just behave quieter, and three Russian tourists behave in such a way that everyone else has an acute sensation that Russians are everywhere and there is no escape from them :)
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay 5 December 2012 11: 08
          +2
          Quote: Verde

          And most importantly, Russian tourists wanted to sneeze on all the prohibitions and warnings and go wherever they want, including Egypt, which is surrounded by revolution. there is no alternative to Turkish resorts for the money, and this is the only opportunity for most poor citizens to somehow relax and swim in the warm sea
          The most amazing thing is that, for example, we also have resorts and many beautiful places to relax,but traveling to Turkey is much cheaper and the service is incomparable! It’s only now that we are trying to put things in order and do something, before prices were generally prohibitive!
  6. Footmansur86
    Footmansur86 5 December 2012 11: 16
    +4
    S-300 to deliver to Syria, Iran, and Venezuela under the pretext of protection against stray RPG shots in Libya
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay 5 December 2012 11: 55
      -1
      Quote: Footmansur86
      S-300 to deliver to Syria, Iran, and Venezuela

      So they are put there !!
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 5 December 2012 13: 28
        0
        Iskander - Uh, not set ...
    2. Bekzat
      Bekzat 5 December 2012 14: 06
      0
      Greetings to all, Dmitry, plus you for the humor.
  7. Beck
    Beck 5 December 2012 12: 34
    0
    In my opinion. The author of the article did not have to combine two questions into one.

    Turkey, as the sovereign of international law, has all the powers. What to ask. What to buy. What to sell. What to place on your territory and what not to place. To plow a border strip or not to plow.
    Japan and South Korea do not blame that Russia is selling modern warplanes to China. And China does not blather that South Korea made its new tank.

    Second question. Why Turkey needs Patriots. This is of course the question. Turks say one thing. Syria is different. So you have to live, and there to see who was chatting for nothing. Because we have no objective data to distrust the words from this and that side. All is just speculation.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay 5 December 2012 13: 18
      -2
      Quote: Beck

      In my opinion. The author of the article did not have to combine two questions into one.

      Whole comment ++++++++
      In my opinion a very competent and most important objective vision !!
      1. Beck
        Beck 5 December 2012 14: 19
        +1
        Yarba.

        Respected. Greetings. Thanks for the support. But as you can see, and for this you are being minus. Well. no logic, only personal hostility.
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay 5 December 2012 15: 18
          +1
          Quote: Beck
          Respected. Greetings. Thanks for the support. But as you can see, and for this you are being minus. Well. no logic, only personal hostility.

          People are different!
          And that too is their right !!
          It’s just really easier to understand when there is a comment argued against, but we have what we have !!
          The main thing that we can speak out!
          1. Blackscorp
            Blackscorp 5 December 2012 20: 47
            0
            I agree. There is simply a category of people (this is a universal phenomenon) who do not accept a different point of view .... This is neither bad nor good .... But this is their opinion, you are right ....
  8. leon-iv
    leon-iv 5 December 2012 13: 54
    +1
    “As for the Patriot systems, first of all, this is not the best system, this is the past generation. Secondly, we share the concern of Turkey in connection with the events on the border, we perfectly understand the feelings of the Turkish leadership and the Turkish people, but we call for restraint, ”Putin said.

    And Putin likes to troll drinks
  9. zmey
    zmey 5 December 2012 14: 48
    +2
    I think the NATO is not very confident in their abilities, so they are re-equipping and transfer equipment to the desired area.
    After all, the Syrians can respond to a NATO or Amer raid from the territory of Turkey with the same raid!
    Yes, and caravans must be covered from aviation. And after several downed Syrian planes for a long time to talk about the presence on board chemical weapons or about the invasion of aircraft in Turkish airspace. Provocations are possible !!!
    1. VPO
      VPO 5 December 2012 17: 36
      +2
      Yes, quit. NATO members are confident in their abilities. And if you need to roll Syria in 2 days without loss. Have you ever considered the issue, for example, from the point of view of not bad Turkey but Good? Why, for example, Turks, like a dog with amers in this conflict? You do not get the impression that the Turks are actively kicking the trouble, and they somehow put it off ... one thing or another, like they’re setting patriots already, and the parliament has passed laws, and some sort of shells arrive. For example, let's take a deeper look, as it is known that any war is driven by profit, as Russia, China are known, vetoed. As you know, Iran is an ally of Syria. And there is also an unimportant fact that the Imort Turks in these countries account for at least 60% of all imports worldwide. And exports to Turkey are mainly hydrocarbons without which the Turks will get bored extremely quickly. The WORLD DEMOCRATIC public is afraid once again to crap its already not entirely clean image and is actively poisoning the Turks in Syria. I can hear right: you guys will start, and we will help, and if you don’t start, we will find measures for you (You can collapse the Turkish economy in half an hour with a crazy budget deficit and leverage to manage the economy from the white house). So Erdoganishka jerks here and there. The Turks do not need a democratized neighbor in the form of free Kurdistan and a crowd of mercenaries without a salary. But ... they’re sitting on the hook so that there’s no way to jump off, so they’re trying to sit down and eat fish. And according to recent events, it seems that we merged Syria. We rent a trench for a trench. Sorry
      1. Hariva
        Hariva 5 December 2012 22: 44
        +1
        By the way, yes! It was not the Turks who asked the United States to host the Patriot, but the United States hinted to the Turks that they would ask the United States to host the Patriot.
  10. MilaPhone
    MilaPhone 5 December 2012 17: 14
    0
    Putin said at a press conference in Turkey that the Patriot is not the best weapon.
  11. wax
    wax 6 December 2012 00: 24
    0
    Patriots can shoot down planes over Syrian territory, and mercenaries will boast, that's all. No-fly zone is wrong, so that way. There will also be located under the umbrella of the "legitimate government". And if Syria strikes the patriots, then there will be a proven and obvious aggression (although this is self-defense according to UN Article 51), and NATO enters into a sweep from the borders with Turkey to Damascus. It is interesting that Putin said in Turkey about this not in front of journalists. What can we oppose to this. We need funds to shoot down Patriot missiles over Syrian territory.
  12. wax
    wax 6 December 2012 01: 25
    0
    Sorry, reported. It is impossible to bring down, but what, in principle, can be opposed to such provocations? How could Putin threaten Turkey?
  13. Alx1miK
    Alx1miK 6 December 2012 12: 03
    +1
    Patriot is +1 to US capital in BV. Pressure, however.