Military Review

Ukrainian armored vehicles through the eyes of a design engineer

71
Samples of the new and deeply modernized Ukrainian armored vehicles (BTT) are being actively discussed in the Russian and foreign media, as well as the prospects for promoting these products on the national and international weapons and military equipment markets. This is partly due to the factor of recently concluded supply contracts abroad, which led some experts to assert about the allegedly significant potential of the industry and the impressive quality of armored vehicles made in Ukraine. But an attempt to objectively analyze what these machines actually represent, as well as the realities of their advancement, makes it possible to speak of a greatly exaggerated assessment of the prospects.

According to the results of the closing 2012 year, it can be said that certain changes in the entry of new and modernized armored vehicles into the Ukrainian army have occurred. This contributes to some increase in funding. As the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Dmitry Salamatin reported, in 2012, for the development of IWT, the defense budget provided for 2,343 billion hryvnia (293 million dollars), while 1,48 billion hryvnia (185 million dollars) was allocated by the state defense order (though some of this money was allocated by special fund, that is, at the expense of the funds that the army must earn by itself. - Prim.avt.).

Ukrainian armored vehicles through the eyes of a design engineerFirst of all, the Ukrainian army officially armed itself with a new generation of armored personnel carriers, adopting this year the new armored personnel carrier BTR-4. The corresponding order from 24 July 2012 year was signed by the head of the military department of the country. According to him, the production of BTR-4 and its modifications will allow Ukraine to get rid of the purchase of such weapons abroad and strengthen its position as a special exporter.

Ukraine is trying to be an active player in the global BBT market. This is confirmed by official reports of government agencies engaged in export control. In particular, in 2011, Sudan received from Ukraine 40 repaired and modernized tanks T-72M1, five T-55, eight BTR-3, 16 BMP-1, ten BRDM-2. Ethiopia acquired 72 T-72B1, Thailand - 24 BTR-3E1, and Iraq - four BTR-44K and 20 BTR-4. In 2012, sales figures will be even larger. In particular, deliveries of the BTR-4 to Iraq are ongoing, and the GP Malyshev Plant (Kharkov) has begun the implementation of a three-year contract for the supply of a batch of Oplot tanks to Thailand.

Ukraine is also planning to launch the joint production of the armored personnel carrier BTR-4 with Kazakhstan JSC NC Kazakhstan Engineering. This was recently stated by the secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Andrei Klyuev: “It is assumed that our country will not only provide the supply of technological lines and components for the joint production of the BTR-4 in Kazakhstan, but will also conduct training for local personnel. In May, an agreement was signed on the joint production of hundreds of armored vehicles. ”

About love tread on a rake

At one time, the presence in the Armed Forces of the USSR of the same type of armored vehicles of various models (T-72, T-64, T-80 tanks, BTR-60PB, BTR-70, BTR-80 armored personnel carriers) was considered inappropriate, primarily because of difficulties in the training of crews, their maintenance and repair, especially in combat conditions.

It looks like the military leadership of Ukraine lessons stories he does not know and wants to invent his national way of updating the armored vehicles arsenals for the umpteenth time. But the fact that the Soviet Union could allow itself in this aspect does not at all mean the acceptability of such a route for Ukraine, whose armed forces barely make ends meet on financing issues (note that the example of the US military, which now uses a large number of different types of combat vehicles MRAP, for other countries is not indicative. Americans were forced to simultaneously purchase so many cars from different manufacturers because of the need to ensure the protection of personnel in hot spots in a short time. to this world. - Comments

In the case of Ukraine, there is a situation when the tail wags the dog: the developers and manufacturers (that is, the DIC) instead of fulfilling the requests of the military themselves impose on them products and services on the principle of one-sided advantage. This is very well illustrated by the example of lobbying for plans to equip the Ukrainian army with new types of local armored personnel carriers of four types at once.

The basis of the BTR fleet of mechanized, airmobile and some other units are the BTR-80, which have significant potential for modernization. But the old BTR-70 also remained, and in small quantities: the need for re-equipment amounts to only a few battalions.

Therefore, the provisions of the State Program for the Development of Armaments and Military Equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other documents provide for the army to begin rearmament with BTR-4 armored personnel carriers to replace, first and foremost, obsolete BTR-70. That is, the BTR-4 is considered as the main prospective model of an armored personnel carrier for the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

It would seem that you can bring to mind the project BTR-4 and on its basis to solve many issues of updating the fleet of light wheeled armored vehicles of the Ukrainian army. But in Ukraine they think differently, since the drafts of program documents for reforming and developing the country's armed forces (in terms of IWT development) for the medium term consider the purchase of equipment samples mounted on the BTR-70 base chassis, upgraded at Nikolayevsk Repair and Mechanical Plant to the level BTR-70DI (primarily for control units of air defense units and command and staff). In addition, the military-industrial complex is lobbying for the adoption of the classic combat BTR-70DI in order to increase its export attractiveness.

In addition, the SE "Kiev Repair and Mechanical Plant" created another similar armored personnel carrier - the BTR-3Е1. Understanding that the adoption of the BTR-3Е1 by the Ukrainian Armed Forces will positively affect its attractiveness for foreign customers, the state concern Ukroboronprom puts pressure on the Defense Ministry regarding the conduct of state tests of the BTR-3EX1 and its adoption by the armed forces of the country. And there is reason to think that this will happen. Thus, Ukraine has every chance of overtaking the former Soviet Union, having in service in four times armored personnel carriers reduced by ten times in comparison with the USSR army.

Quality questions

Paying tribute to the work of the creators of the BTR-4, I still want to express my opinion regarding this car. Of course, this is a step forward in comparison, for example, with the BTR-70. But there are issues related to a certain ideological backwardness of the BTR-4 design and its technical dampness due to production quality problems. This has a foundation. It is no secret that the first batch of these armored personnel carriers for Iraq remained in the factory workshops for an unacceptably long time, almost breaking the international contract. It turned out that the 11 BTR-4E on automatic cannons (almost a complete copy of the Soviet 2А42 cannons produced by the defense company from Kamenetz-Podolsky) were found to be flawed, they allowed for misfires and delays.

In the activities of the Ukrainian defense industry there are elements of self-deception. What is, for example, new armored personnel carriers offered by the Kiev and Nikolaev repair and mechanical plants for their army and foreign customers? In fact, these are the modified corps of the old armored vehicles (BTR-70), into which they stuffed the new stuffing in the form of foreign-made engines, Ukrainian weapons modules, etc. In terms of price, this is a good offer. But in terms of the survivability of the machine itself, the security of the crew, and the compliance with the requirements of modern conditions of counter-insurgency military conflicts, there are very big doubts. Yes, and the old repair fund of cars, withdrawn from the combat strength of the Ukrainian army, from which new cars are made, is not enough to infinity.

Another indicator of the intellectual potential of the creators of the Ukrainian armored vehicles is the situation with the future armored reconnaissance and patrol vehicles BRDM-2. One of the enterprises of the defense industry complex of Ukraine has developed a program for its modernization. Naturally, it would be desirable for manufacturers to purchase updated cars by their own military department. Or at least the fact of its official adoption.

At first, the Ukrainian General Staff analyzed the situation and honestly stated that for the BRDM-2, even if it was modernized, there was no place in significant quantities in the promising appearance of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. This is due to the fact that the machine is simply outdated and has limited potential for use in modern conditions. But soon a political decision followed from the top with the filing of interested defense industry structures that such a machine was still needed. The preparation of the necessary documents has begun. As a result, experts from the Central Scientific Research Institute of the Armed Forces of the country found an opportunity to show their intellectual potential, declaring operational and tactical requirements for the machine. For example, that it should stay afloat for about 20 hours, and have a speed on water that is comparable with the speed of a motor boat. It is interesting, for what tasks of the Ukrainian army were these figures justified? As a way to compensate for the lack of ship composition fleet, especially the presence of only two landing ships? You see, with such armored vehicles, ships are no longer needed. Twenty hours afloat - and to the coast of Romania you can row. And after a stop - and get to Turkey. Cossacks once walked on their seagulls to Constantinople. And what is worse than the current ones? That is, there is a fact when the status of doctors of sciences and general stars did not help to understand that this defense industry machine has already been created (or rather, modernized), and all documents about its necessity / uselessness for the Ukrainian Armed Forces are written retroactively to please lobbyists from the defense industry. Not for the Ukrainian army, but only for giving the modernized BRDM-2 official status for its more effective sale abroad.

By the way, several years from all the tribunes there have been statements that modern and effective special operations forces (MTR) will be created in Ukraine. Judging by the open media publications, the current heads of the General Staff have already removed this task from the priority list. Be that as it may, SSOs require, among other things, appropriate vehicles, including armored ones, designed to ensure the actions of special forces. In other countries, this has been reflected in the creation of buggy-type machines, various lightly armored assault vehicles and off-road vehicles for off-road operations. But for the Ukrainian military this is still a dream. Moreover, the special unit "Omega" of the Internal Troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs has already received buggy assault vehicles in its arsenal. The Alpha Special Forces of the Security Service of Ukraine on the eve of Euro-2012 flaunted at various anti-terrorism exercises on the new Hammers. A special forces army, apparently decided to offer a slightly modified BRDM-2 of fifty years of age.

Essentially

In the context of the above, information that appeared in the media in connection with the events in Syria is curious. Footage of video clips showed that Syrian security forces are using armored vehicles against anti-government forces, which have not been refined in terms of protection for the conditions of action in populated areas and against rebels. Naturally, this explains the significant losses among the crews and the failure of the machines themselves. Military observers quite rightly noted that such a problem is also characteristic of Ukraine. After all, armored vehicles of power structures are absolutely not ready to act in the conditions of a modern war. At the same time, the main teachings of the Ukrainian army of the current year, “Perspective-2012”, according to reports from the website of the military department, among other things, were aimed at combating illegal armed groups.

The pages of the recently adopted National Security Strategy of Ukraine and the Military Doctrine of Ukraine clearly spelled out the task for the army to be prepared for such actions, as well as what is commonly called peacekeeping operations. That is, the relevance of the issues of the arsenal of peacekeeping contingents has not been removed from the agenda. But the media have repeatedly written that the Ukrainian peacekeepers in Kosovo perform their tasks on ordinary UAZ vehicles that do not even have easily removable local reservations.

If we conduct a more or less impartial analysis of the characteristics of all the APCs mentioned above, there is a desire to name the policy of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense to re-equip its own army with ostrich. Otherwise, how to understand the silence of the fact that the ideology of the family of MRAP machines and the like is not discussed at all, although the entire civilized world considers the issues of the future armored vehicle park exclusively through the prism of ensuring reliable protection of personnel.

Moreover, the country's defense complex develops such machines and can produce them without any particular problems. An example is the public joint-stock company AvtoKrAZ, which, in partnership with foreign colleagues, has created an armored KrAZ-01-1-11 / SLDSL MRAP vehicle. Indian partner, it is designated as KRAZ MPV. Structurally, the BBM is based on the all-wheel drive vehicle-chassis KrAZ-5233BE of the wheel formula 4х4 with the diesel engine YMZ-238Е2 with horsepower 330. The hull is made by the Indians. It is planned to create a version of this car on the KrAZ chassis and with the wheel formula 6х6.

Above, we talked mainly about the problems of rearming with armored vehicles in relation to wheeled armored personnel carriers. But this is not an isolated example. Something similar is observed in the future of the tank park of the Ukrainian army. At the same time, two vehicles are being considered: the new T-84 Oplot and the T-64 tank that has been deeply upgraded to the Bulat version.

Indeed, the Soviet tank design school allows Ukrainian developers and manufacturers to produce good cars. But only until a certain time. Now, any armored vehicle in the civilized world is considered as an element of the weapon system (combat platform), the integration of the component parts of which into the system occurs primarily in the information plan. The developers of the same T-84 emphasize that the machine has many attributes of the information age: space navigation system, digital communications, etc. But in reality there is no Ukrainian army, and most likely in the foreseeable future, there is no automated tactical command and control system, which will be brought to the level of a separate infantryman - fire weapon - combat vehicle.

The intention to create such an ACS was declared by the Odessa enterprise Telekard-Pribor. But apart from the development of individual elements, and on the basis of foreign components, the matter did not move further. Instead, the management of the company focused on finding an administrative resource that would allow to wishful thinking and impose products of dubious quality on the Ukrainian army.

The topic of the ACS tactical level for the Armed Forces of Ukraine can be continued indefinitely, but the fact remains: a significant increase in the combat potential of the so-called new models of the Ukrainian BTT has not occurred due to informational integration. As a result, it is simply ridiculous to suggest the development of BTT as an opportunity to qualitatively update the arsenal of the Ukrainian army.

Therefore, the declarations of the leadership of the Ministry of Defense and the military-industrial complex, the advertising campaign in the media are the usual bustle, which is trying to cover the problems of rearmament of the army, the quality of models of armored vehicles created in Ukraine, the prospects for their production and promotion abroad.


Help "MIC"

The BTR-4 has fundamental differences in the layout of the compartments compared to the BTR-60, -70, -80:

  • control - front;
  • middle - engine-transmission;
  • rear - combat and landing.

    This layout allows you to quickly transform the combat and amphibious units without changing the layout decisions on the power plant and transmission to install various combat modules and create a wide family of machines. The “payload” reserve of the armored personnel carrier chassis makes it possible to install additional protection, which provides enhanced mine protection and frontal projection stability from ammunition to automatic small-caliber guns. The aft layout of the main landing hatches allows for the landing (disembarkation) of the landing under the cover of armor, it meets the generally accepted requirements for promising armored vehicles.

    KrAZ-01-1-11 / SLDSL is a multi-purpose vehicle, armored personnel carrier, designed for transporting personnel of units and their fire support, can be used as a carrier of various weapons and military equipment.

    Protection against small arms and weapons mass destruction provide a solid body supporting structure, reinforced with armor steel; double doors and side walls, the space between which is filled with explosion-proof material with a thickness of 25 millimeters; floor design consisting of three walls that form a wedge-shaped bottom, which disperses the shock wave.

    The BBM KRAZ-01-1-11 / SLDSL is designed for transporting 12 fighters, equipped with a Rigel MK, 8 swivel turret inside the car, communications, an audiovisual surveillance system with an 360 degree of rotation, and night vision and rear-view cameras with a half-kilometer long distance view and a half-meter range. The level of protection of the armor of the vertical walls, bulletproof glass armor engine compartment corresponds to the level of 3A STANAG 4569. The explosion-proof material of the floor and side walls of THIKA MINEPLATE exceeds the NATO requirements STANAG 4569 level 2.
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    1. WW3
      WW3 5 December 2012 07: 20
      +9
      Ukraine is trying to be an active player in the global BTT market.

      These efforts are contrary to the bankruptcy of the largest largest producer of tanks in Ukraine, the plant them. Malysheva ... sad
      1. ShturmKGB
        ShturmKGB 5 December 2012 10: 18
        +3
        They are trying to somehow survive, to preserve their military-industrial complex, although the frank orientation towards NATO causes annoyance. NATO will not buy Ukrainian equipment on an industrial scale, as well as the equipment of other countries, except for the equipment of the USA and Great Britain. They don’t even buy equipment from their old allies ...
        1. slas
          slas 5 December 2012 11: 01
          +8
          ShturmKGB
          Trying to survive somehow, save your defense industry

          That's right --- trying to survive! They will, of course, sell to countries 3 and 4 And here, as in the proverb, "Better a tit in the hands than a duck under the bed"
        2. kopar
          kopar 5 December 2012 11: 03
          +1
          So Ukraine understands this. Therefore, they have the main customers of the Asian region.
          The usual cut of money. And the Army remains with outdated models. Just like ours 10 years ago ........
        3. freder
          freder 5 December 2012 20: 54
          0
          Therefore, the United States purchases Ukrainian equipment for Iraq and Pakistan (more precisely, they give them money to purchase exactly the Ukrainian one). It is safe to say that the Ukrainian military-industrial complex survived due to the support of the United States and this country is not just a word but an ally of Ukraine.
          1. gladiatorakz
            gladiatorakz 6 December 2012 10: 49
            0
            Quote: freder
            Therefore, the United States purchases Ukrainian equipment for Iraq and Pakistan (more precisely, they give them money to purchase exactly the Ukrainian one). It is safe to say that the Ukrainian military-industrial complex survived due to the support of the United States and this country is not just a word but an ally of Ukraine.

            helicopters to Afghanistan, the Russian Federation supplies for the US money. And Ulyanovsk is also in the territory of the Russian Federation. And tama nata.
            1. freder
              freder 6 December 2012 15: 16
              -1
              With Ukrainian engines, by the way, and who knows if these engines and American avionics Czech vsu and service are specified in the terms of the contract .. Ukraine also receives the most from these helicopters ..
              1. gladiatorakz
                gladiatorakz 6 December 2012 19: 27
                0
                Quote: freder
                With Ukrainian engines, by the way, and who knows if these engines and American avionics Czech vsu and service are specified in the terms of the contract .. Ukraine also receives the most from these helicopters ..

                Well, what's the conclusion? In addition to delusions about alliance.
      2. WW3
        WW3 5 December 2012 12: 14
        +2
        Here is a strange person. put a minus you can’t say black that it is white ... bankruptcy of the plant to them. Malysheva was discussed on this site more than once ... winked
      3. Sasha 19871987
        Sasha 19871987 5 December 2012 12: 29
        +5
        what Ukrainians want, let them do it, they have enough of their own ge .... I got cold for a long time against the background of their flirting with the West .... they are simply chasing two hares .... forgive me Ukrainian friends of the site ...
    2. Fox
      Fox 5 December 2012 07: 22
      +1
      plans are huge .... and the result is predictable: no matter how much you say "halva", your mouth will not be sweeter.
    3. tolan_petrovich
      tolan_petrovich 5 December 2012 07: 25
      +1
      And if there is nothing to be done, then soon there will be nobody to do!
    4. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 5 December 2012 07: 36
      +1
      The only thing that can lead the Ukrainian defense industry out of the pit is orders from the Russian Ministry of Defense, but ............. there are many BUT. The company does not provide single orders for work, but expects to export, there are too strong competitors, you don’t sell much.
    5. Bykov.
      Bykov. 5 December 2012 07: 40
      +2
      Something, to be honest, is not impressed by the "successes" of the Ukrainian defense industry. And it is not clear, in this regard, their constant desire to cooperate with us.
      The feeling that soon there will be no basis for joint projects. The technological "gap" between ours and theirs military-industrial complex will simply grow and will not allow it. Soviet developments, of course, are good, but forward movement, something is not visible.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 5 December 2012 07: 48
        +1
        Quote: Bulls.
        And it is not clear, in connection with this, their constant desire is not for joint cooperation with us.

        Cooperation is money with possible subsequent deliveries to Russia of equipment and everything else. In conditions when the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine is not able to provide their defense industry with orders, the developers themselves are trying to find solutions.
        1. Kaa
          Kaa 5 December 2012 11: 36
          +1
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          In conditions when the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine is not able to provide its defense industry with orders

          How can we ensure that "where is the money, Zin?"
          "Attention is drawn to the distribution of the defense budget (they 22.8 billion UAH ), development will be allocated less than 30% of the budget (including combat training). In the Russian defense budget, this ratio is approximately 52:48 in favor of the current content. It remains unknown how the state defense order of 2013 will be distributed in Ukraine, taking into account its sharply increased volume (4,8 billion UAH). For comparison, in 2012, UAH 2,39 billion was allocated for weapons development programs in Ukraine, of which UAH 1,479 billion was allocated for the development, modernization and purchase of new weapons, and UAH 900 million - for repairs "http: // www. military-informant.com/index.php/force/2029-min-ukr
          aine.h
          tml # .UL73L-Rg8SQ
          "" For the first time in the history of Ukraine, there is not a single penny for the construction and purchase of housing for military personnel. And this is social blow to the Armed forces ”, - he said. In response to this criticism, Anatoly Myarkovsky, First Deputy Minister of Finance, representing the finalized draft state budget, noted that the Cabinet of Ministers, when drafting the project, focused on increasing funding for socially protected budget items, in particular, articles providing for the payment of wages to military personnel.http: //news.zn.ua/ ECONOMICS / v_byudzhete-2013_vpervy
          e_za_history_
          ukrainy_ne_vydeleno_ni_kopeyki_na_zhilie_dlya_voennyh-113182.html
          The draft state budget for 2013 confirmed the trend of recent years - the cost of law enforcement agencies in Ukraine is growing many times faster than the cost of living and minimum wage. Such a model of government spending is observed only in authoritarian countries, but not in democratic ones. The following year, the government budgeted about 21,67 billion UAH for needs Ministries of the Interior, Security Services and the Prosecutor General. And this is more than 5% of the budget expenditures.
          Spending on "siloviki" in Ukraine has always been high, but since 2011 - the first budget drawn up by the team of the incumbent President - they have been growing too fast. If in 2010 the government allocated UAH 15,4 billion for the needs of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the SBU and the GPU, then the next year this figure increased to UAH 19,15 billion - by 24% at once! It is obvious that it has become too expensive for Ukrainians to serve the "siloviki" - over the year their needs have grown by almost 4 billion hryvnias. In historical tradition, the Russian Empire is usually called a police state. However, looking at such spending on the needs of law enforcement agencies in Ukraine, doubts arise as to the course Ukraine is taking. By the way, the police Russian Empire died under the rubble of the Great October Revolution. Http://www.rbc.ua/rus/top/show/proekt-gosudarstvennogo-byudzh
          eta-ukrai
          ny-na-2013-g-silovikam - 04122012151600
          In practice, the cost of the army is equal to the cost of maintaining police units. Who is the Ukrainian government more afraid of? What state procurement of armored vehicles is already here ...
          1. Splin
            Splin 5 December 2012 11: 46
            +2
            Kaa,

            At the Moscow Region, the project also has 23,6 billion gavnyuk, even more than requested. True, let's see what they will.
            1. Orey
              Orey 5 December 2012 14: 01
              +3
              Quote: Splin
              At the Moscow Region, the project also has 23,6 billion gavnyuk, even more than requested. True, let's see what they will.

              In 2013, it is planned to allocate only 15,3 billion UAH for the needs of the military department, which is noticeably less than the budget for the current year - 16,4 billion UAH.

              The largest increase in the 2013 budget is expected from the Prosecutor General.
              Its financing will grow by 20,7% - from 2,65 billion in 2012 to 3,2 billion in 2013, (special fund - 1,1 million UAH).
              The budget of this department will increase despite the fact that its authority over the past year has been repeatedly reduced. In particular, since December 1, the prosecutor’s office has been deprived of part of its overall supervision.


              http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2012/12/5/6978775/
              1. Splin
                Splin 5 December 2012 14: 09
                +1
                Orey,
                I suggest you not read "Ukrainian Truth" or at least not only it. They asked for 19 give, according to various sources, from 21 to 23,6 watermelons.
                1. Orey
                  Orey 5 December 2012 16: 53
                  +2
                  Quote: Splin
                  I suggest you not read "Ukrainian Truth" or at least not only it. They asked for 19 give according to different sources from 21 to 23,6 watermelons

                  It is doubtful given the budget deficit of UAH 50bn. Well, by the new year it will be clear what they will accept. I did not notice any falsification of publicly available information behind Ukrainska Pravda.
                  1. Splin
                    Splin 5 December 2012 17: 48
                    +3
                    Orey,

                    I am the same, but the army is the only security officials that the people trust. It would be foolish to miss this chance.
                    1. Orey
                      Orey 5 December 2012 18: 11
                      0
                      Quote: Splin
                      I am the same, but the army is the only security officials that the people trust. It would be foolish to miss this chance.

                      During the economic crisis, it is more logical for the authorities to finance the Ministry of Internal Affairs, VV, and GPU. Corvette and Peregrine Falcon state employees who do not receive a salary can not be dispersed.
                      1. Splin
                        Splin 5 December 2012 18: 20
                        +2
                        Orey,
                        We are not Greece and France. They will only use water cannons - everyone thinks the authorities have come to an end I'm not talking about that. How much money do not give the cops you can’t get it. They quickly repaint when changing power. The army is another matter. They don’t forget the good here. And this is not an elite club of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, but a public section. In addition to the military themselves, there are also a bunch of relatives and friends. If you give the extra hryvnia to the prosecutors, this is 100 people in your support. Extra hryvnia by the military + 10 people.
                        PS I would like to see their immorality when they give the military pennies tomorrow on holiday.
                        1. Orey
                          Orey 5 December 2012 18: 31
                          +1
                          Quote: Splin
                          We are not Greece and France. They will only use water cannons - everyone thinks the authorities have come to an end I'm not talking about that. How much money do not give the cops you can’t get it. They quickly repaint when changing power. The army is another matter. They don’t forget the good here. And this is not an elite club of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, but a public section. In addition to the military themselves, there are also a bunch of relatives and friends. If you give the extra hryvnia to the prosecutors, this is 100 people in your support. Extra hryvnia by the military + 10 people.

                          Well, before, not a single government thought in line with this logic, and this one hardly thinks so.
                        2. Splin
                          Splin 5 December 2012 18: 35
                          +3
                          Quote: Orey
                          Well, before, not a single government thought in line with this logic, and this one hardly thinks so.

                          Maybe yes, maybe not. Look at this year's recovery technology.
                          Look at the difference in thinking:
                          My younger brother was never in the army, all at headquarters ...
                          - Oh, the salary is so little raised this year
                          My colleagues:
                          Our combat training has become more frequent and even the salary has been slightly increased!
                          Catching Priorities?
      2. kopar
        kopar 5 December 2012 11: 06
        0
        If they actively begin to cooperate with us, then the West will block their tranches. Yes, and simply turn away from them. For their political elite, it’s like death.
        How well Soviet technology was designed, and 20 years after the collapse of the Empire, it can be modernized.
    6. Splin
      Splin 5 December 2012 07: 47
      +14
      I read it, you can fix it. BTR-3E1 and BTR-4E for APU have a unification of 80%. The difference is only in the shape of the engine power housing and in the form of a module, and the armament is the same. So far, only three have been purchased in the amount of 40 pieces for the reinforced battalion of the Marine Corps. 30 vehicles in companies + 10 armored personnel carriers with a 2A51 gun in the battery. When the battalion is deployed to the brigade, procurement will continue.
      As for the BTR-7 - it is also as unified as possible as a module. viscera and engine. You won’t be able to switch to 4-ku right away .. For the same money you can buy either one BTR-4 or 3-4 pieces of BTR-7 (8). For tanks, BM Bulat’s purchases will continue to be added to another tank brigade. In parallel with it, cheaper T-64Es will enter mechanized brigades.
      BMP-1 is being upgraded to BMP-1U. The fate of the BMPT-64 is still unknown, as is the 2S3MU. BRDM-2 will be replaced by "Patrols", although this is not an equivalent exchange. "Patrols" will also be included in the airmobile brigades.
      As for the armored KRAZ, it is purely for the Indians. For peacekeeping operations, there will be "Kozak". And the information that our patrols ride UAZs and BRDMs in Kosovo is not correct. They are there, but they have a different task. And so the Hummers go on the flight.

      1. Selevc
        Selevc 5 December 2012 08: 47
        +8
        And so the Hummers go on a flight
        Which the Americans themselves are discontinuing, as these machines are recognized as too vulnerable ... For example, it is known that in the same Iraq, the bulk of the losses in personnel accounted for exactly Humvee ...

        Ukrainian military-industrial complex is a mountain that constantly produces mice ...

        mechanized brigades will receive cheaper T-64E
        that is, they are arming their army with tanks that are already obsolete both morally and technically ... - Such a circus only in Ukraine can be all this under beautiful and fashionable phrases and applause from the top of villains in uniform ...
        1. Splin
          Splin 5 December 2012 08: 53
          +5
          Selevc,

          Do you want to immediately get on a Ferrari without even having a "Moskvich"?
          1. Selevc
            Selevc 5 December 2012 08: 57
            +6
            After all, Ukraine is not Sudan and Somalia - we are not creating equipment from scratch - there are achievements and advanced design solutions ... What prevents them from being implemented?

            As for armored vehicles, the Ukrainian military-industrial complex is quite capable of releasing an analogue of the most advanced world developments - that's just the problem - no one wants to seriously deal with this ...

            If we carry out parallels with the auto industry - then in the defense industry the situation in the post-Soviet period was much better and we had not only our own Moskvich and Mercedes and could rightfully "transfer from it to Ferrari" - but for some reason we "moved" instead of Ferrari to the modernized Moskvich ...
            1. Splin
              Splin 5 December 2012 09: 03
              +3
              And what exactly does not correspond?

              1. Selevc
                Selevc 5 December 2012 09: 18
                +3
                Structurally, the BTR-4 is again just a modernization of the same BTR-70 ... Here you have a photo at the top that immediately shows the fundamental differences between the BTR-4 and the Nexter - first you can see right away that the French car is well protected from below and frontally too I think much better ...

                Now all over the world they make armored personnel carriers with a "V" -shaped section of the lower part of the hull for protection from mines, and in ours there is not even a hint of this because this is already a serious modernization of the entire structure of the machine ...

                Yes, in Soviet times, very good cars were built - but the world does not stand still and it is impossible to endlessly drive on the old one ...
                1. Splin
                  Splin 5 December 2012 09: 31
                  +5
                  Quote: Selevc

                  Now all over the world they make armored personnel carriers with a "V" -shaped section of the lower part of the hull for protection from mines, and in ours there is not even a hint of this because this is already a serious modernization of the entire structure of the machine ...


                  Who told you what not ?. And the four and the three and the Watch and Kozak have this option of protection. There is another. As for Nekster, the BTR-4 bypassed it at the preliminary examination, lagging behind only in firing accuracy (but it fell within the norm). But the kids got a task to install a thermal imager and a new laser rangefinder.
                  1. Selevc
                    Selevc 5 December 2012 09: 44
                    +1
                    The Malyshev plant is a bankrupt enterprise with outdated equipment and a huge staff of managerial bureaucracy ... Once again, they are trying to make a technical masterpiece at the expense of old specialists (who have long been pensioners) working on old machines ...
                    And you are talking about some kind of thermal imagers !!! Just funny to read ...
                    1. Splin
                      Splin 5 December 2012 09: 52
                      +7
                      Selevc,
                      I heard a ringing, but I don't know where he is. The bankruptcy procedure is a purely technical formality. On a national scale, it is called DEFOLT. That Russia disintegrated in 98-oa? There is a principle "To all whom I owe I forgive". It's just that the debts of the state-owned enterprise were written off to the account of the state with the government and EVERYTHING. And old people work because young people are frail and can't stand the rhythm. There is a frantic turnover, because you have to work!
                      1. Selevc
                        Selevc 5 December 2012 10: 12
                        +1
                        Exactly - in modern factories there is no crazy turnover, highly skilled specialists have been trained for years and others and decades ... And the crazy turnover where no one wants to work seriously, neither management nor staff ... And the young people perfectly understand this ....
                        In normal countries, they regularly perform preventive, overhaul of equipment and replace obsolete machines with new ...
                        In advanced countries, they conduct reasonable marketing pre-sale preparation of their equipment, test new models of equipment and after-sales service them in the future ...

                        We have none of this - and never have been as a result of the criminal activity of the country's leadership and, in particular, the defense industry

                        And in addition, we are still working on machines "during the Crimean War" ...

                        Bankruptcy is a purely technical formality.
                        But the creation of a new technology is not a formality ...

                        The plant named after Malyshev is bankrupt, not in a financial sense, but in the sense of the technical condition of production, and this is much more serious than just mutual debts ...
                        1. Splin
                          Splin 5 December 2012 10: 30
                          +3
                          Selevc,

                          I understand your dislike for the current government, the past - in general ..., but the flywheel of history cannot be reversed. As Pumbaa said: "You need to leave your ass behind"
                        2. Selevc
                          Selevc 5 December 2012 10: 37
                          0
                          I think you just need to really look at things - and not through pink glasses ...

                          I would like the Ukrainian defense industry to develop not just in words but in practice .. To modernize the plants and actively train the generation of young specialists, to develop a scientific base and spend money wisely from the equipment sold abroad ...

                          But for now, it’s rather just a dream ...
                        3. Splin
                          Splin 5 December 2012 10: 42
                          +6
                          I have not looked through them for a long time. I did not criticize the article, but added only inaccuracies. And if you pick up your decadent mood, you can immediately rent yourself a place in the afterlife.
                        4. Selevc
                          Selevc 5 December 2012 11: 10
                          +4
                          I just have been living in this country for a long time and I know how everything is done with us - therefore, the problems with the delivery of armored personnel carriers to Iraq are very obvious and understandable ... And in the current state of affairs, these problems are inevitable in the future ... The task of the country's top leadership change the situation fundamentally and they bastards only aggravate everything - this is the source of dislike for them ...

                          For 14 years I worked as a technologist in production - I was in workshops, I saw with my own eyes who works, how they work and on what and how the authorities arrange a show everywhere - now already under European and shitty slogans ... Therefore, the mood is ...
          2. kopar
            kopar 5 December 2012 11: 12
            +1
            Just like Tukhachevsky, you say “we will make 20 thousand tanks!” Why supply and buy junk when you can buy, albeit not immediately, gradually, but the latest models of equipment? Retraining and replacement will come out droozhe. So what's the point of spending the budget big), for the purchase of junk?
            1. Splin
              Splin 5 December 2012 11: 24
              +3
              Look. To re-equip the tank brigade with modern BM Oplot tanks, with the intensity of our purchases, it takes 10 years. By then, it will not be modern anymore. At the same time, BM Bulat needs 3 years. This tank corresponds to the level of T-80U (UD), T-90A, T-72B2, Leopard-2A4. True, this is the peak of its modernization. He will not be able to reach the Leopard-2A6 and T-90MA. But still, it will correspond to the level of tanks in the region.
        2. dirty trick
          dirty trick 5 December 2012 09: 32
          +5
          Quote: Selevc
          Ukrainian military-industrial complex is a mountain that constantly produces mice ...


          The Ukrainian military-industrial complex, as it were, was no worse than ours after the collapse of the USSR, and the fact that they are still moving, producing, trying to promote new ideas is respect! and it should be noted that Ukrainian. VPK does not survive thanks to, but contrary to the efforts of the Ukrainian authorities; there is a good saying about this:
          1. Selevc
            Selevc 5 December 2012 09: 48
            0
            and it should be noted that Ukrainian. VPK does not survive thanks, but contrary to the efforts of the Ukrainian authorities


            This is more and more like the agony of the remnants of the Soviet military-industrial complex ... The Ukrainian military-industrial complex, instead of developing for 20 years, systematically destroyed the country's leadership ...

            Why build something new if you can repaint the old one, pass it off as a new one, quickly shove it and share the loot ...
    7. andrei. 2012
      andrei. 2012 5 December 2012 08: 55
      +1
      Technique in Russia is no worse, and in many respects even better, but we do not know how to sell it. The same "Hummer" is not the best car in many respects, but it is advertised to such an extent (by films, programs) that it seems no better . As Americans in due time with their "stealth" were worn, before the first meeting with our technique. It is necessary to learn how to sell, what we can do.
    8. Chicot 1
      Chicot 1 5 December 2012 08: 58
      +6
      Disadvantages are (were and will be) in any defense industry. Moreover, they will take place in such a relatively young, as the defense industry of Ukraine ...
      However, the samples make interesting and worthy of all attention. They respond quickly enough to the needs and changes of the arms market. They have a fairly strong design school and a good manufacturing base. And so I wouldn’t particularly be malicious and look high at the armored vehicles produced in (in) Ukraine ...
      And as an example I’ll give you this ... Personally, I like the heavy BMP created by the Kharkiv based on the T-64 MBT. A fairly balanced and pragmatic approach to creating a car of this class. The Russian defense industry has not yet been able to create anything like this ... To my great regret ...
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 5 December 2012 10: 37
        +2
        Oh, and suddenly the BTR-T is not a tank-based BMP?
        1. Splin
          Splin 5 December 2012 10: 45
          +7
          leon-iv,
          Now look:



          Below is its analogue BMP-55 engine 5TDFM
          1. leon-iv
            leon-iv 5 December 2012 10: 55
            +3
            Yes, I’m kind of in the course))))
            The current between them is almost 10 years of difference. And I pointed out that the development of such machines was in the Russian Federation in the 90s.
            And in fact, this and that is not serial samples (and serial ones when at least 1-2 baht is fully equipped). Therefore, it makes no sense to discuss.
            1. Splin
              Splin 5 December 2012 11: 04
              +3
              leon-iv,
              In this I agree, discussion without meaning. Correct 5 years of difference. The first heavy BMPV-55 was released in 2002, but unlike the BTR-T, everyone is developing it, hoping to sell it.
              1. leon-iv
                leon-iv 5 December 2012 12: 16
                0
                Then we had similar projects. BUT decided to wait for a new unified platform for heavy brigades.
              2. Chicot 1
                Chicot 1 5 December 2012 12: 21
                +3
                And the result of this development is on the face ... However, not too suddenly, dear leon-iv? ..
                And the BTR-T remained in its essence a slightly altered T-55 (with all the disadvantages arising from this circumstance). So both versions (Russian and Ukrainian) are different. And they differ greatly and thoroughly. And as it sounds "non-patriotic", I will give preference to the Ukrainian car. As more perfect and thoughtful. And I hope this is not too sudden for you, dear leon-iv? ..
                1. leon-iv
                  leon-iv 5 December 2012 13: 17
                  0
                  no never. I would also prefer the BMP-55. And it would be foolish to assume that it would be worse.
                  But in fact, one dead another with unclear prospects. And there is nothing strange about it.
                  Threat BTR-T is like a 97 year show and EMNIP XM in 95-96.
                  1. Splin
                    Splin 5 December 2012 13: 23
                    +3
                    BMP-55 is an export to Africa and Asia. For Russia, it is better to remake the BMPV-72 from the reserve crowd. But for some reason there is no shooting. They are waiting for the "Armata" platform.
                    1. leon-iv
                      leon-iv 5 December 2012 13: 28
                      0
                      Yes. Waiting for Armata. TBMP will do for her.
                      We need to work out the tactics. So the main deliveries will be battalion units in the years 17-18.
                      BMP-55, by the way, is quite suitable for bantustanov. But to be honest, I don’t think that the poets will decide to buy them in bulk. expensive pleasure. They have trucks yes T-72 with T-55/62 and then 72 is redundant for them.
                      1. Splin
                        Splin 5 December 2012 13: 35
                        +2
                        Imagine - the Indians are interested. They have a lot of T-54/55. Peru is also looking for the answer Chilean Marder-1A2. As you can see, the market is promising. It would be only desire.
                        1. leon-iv
                          leon-iv 5 December 2012 13: 40
                          0
                          at the expense of indices not sure maybe there is no unification by MTO. Although if it is normal who needs to bring suitcases, then everything is real.
                          But I would not take unified vehicles.
                        2. Splin
                          Splin 5 December 2012 13: 46
                          +1
                          Israel somehow with Azaharit did not think about unification. And if replacing the engines in the decommissioned T-55, what is the unification, with whom? They are no longer in service in India.
                        3. leon-iv
                          leon-iv 5 December 2012 13: 52
                          0
                          then it was very necessary.
                          And now I intend to eat unified with carrots.
                        4. Splin
                          Splin 5 December 2012 14: 04
                          +2
                          Were the car from scratch. Indians are also not suckers and they have domestic developments. And where is the old iron? As for the engine, many of their military offered to change the engines of the "B" series for the T-72 and T-90 for the "TD" series. Tanks do not pull them in the mountains on the borders with Pakistan and China.
                        5. leon-iv
                          leon-iv 5 December 2012 14: 22
                          0
                          mdya I heard a similar thing about the opposition. laughing
                          Hindus are also not suckers and they have domestic developments

                          even looking at arjun I doubt it
                        6. Splin
                          Splin 5 December 2012 14: 35
                          +2
                          Quote: leon-iv
                          leon-iv

                          Let's just say I'm with the Indians on their forums "on a short leg. I ask them short questions and get normal answers. I will say that before visiting and forums, I also lived in a small amount of Russia-Ukraine (this is about the military-industrial complex). a large amount of information Poles know less about Ukraine (again about the military-industrial complex) than Indians, and so on in many countries.
    9. Was mammoth
      Was mammoth 5 December 2012 09: 09
      +4
      The problems of the Ukrainian and Russian defense industry are the same. Until the leadership is really engaged in the army and the defense industry, the "holes" will be filled with Soviet developments. The designers of the Soviet era are leaving, and young people are not very attracted by low wages. Hence the results. I would like to wish the Ukrainians success. Sooner or later we will be in alliance with Ukraine. And two schools are better than one.
      1. bootlegger
        bootlegger 5 December 2012 10: 25
        0
        I’m only afraid that Ukraine will come to the need for such an alliance when they already have nothing to offer us. Everything goes to that.
        A design school makes sense when its value is confirmed by modern developments. Without this, all the teachings of this school are pointless and to combine them with a school that is developing is like teaching a doctor of mathematical sciences a school course in algebra.
      2. gladiatorakz
        gladiatorakz 5 December 2012 19: 47
        +1
        Quote: There was a mammoth
        The problems of the Ukrainian and Russian defense industry are the same. Until the leadership is really engaged in the army and the defense industry, the "holes" will be filled with Soviet developments. The designers of the Soviet era are leaving, and young people are not very attracted by low wages. Hence the results. I would like to wish the Ukrainians success. Sooner or later we will be in alliance with Ukraine. And two schools are better than one.

        + 100050!
    10. kov
      kov 5 December 2012 10: 09
      +3
      If anyone is interested, a video review of the Ukrainian BTR-4

      1. Selevc
        Selevc 5 December 2012 13: 35
        0
        I watched the video - it’s interesting of course, but obviously our designers sacrificed the armor for the mobility of the armored personnel carrier, while the NATO countries took a clearly different path ...

        Our armored personnel carrier has mostly bulletproof armor - it keeps a 30-mm projectile hit well, but it would be better if it could withstand an RPG-7 hit, since these weapons would most likely be encountered in the same Iraq ...

        And judging by the video, there is no modern mine protection at all ... The same French cars are significantly higher than ours because the bottom of the hull is V-shaped and the bottom is a thick steel plate ... In the event of an explosion, the armored personnel carriers will fly off the wheels but the hull will not be broken because the explosion energy does not go below the bottom of the armored personnel carrier, but diverges along the side of the V-shaped bottom ....
        1. Orey
          Orey 5 December 2012 14: 13
          +3
          Quote: Selevc
          Our armored personnel carrier has mostly bulletproof armor - it keeps a 30-mm projectile hit well, but it would be better if it could withstand an RPG-7

          Even modern tanks do not hold RPG-7 in all projections ...
          1. Splin
            Splin 5 December 2012 14: 24
            +4
            Orey,
            This simple device holds the PG-7VM shot. He’s old, but for protection in Africa - he’ll do it
            1. Orey
              Orey 5 December 2012 14: 36
              +3
              Is bulletproof armoring reinforced? There is a suspicion that it makes no sense to transfer RPG-7 to BRDM. At the same range, the PKK will turn the car into a sieve.
              Whose development is this?
              1. Splin
                Splin 5 December 2012 14: 45
                +2
                Orey,
                It is unlikely that it is strengthened, although ceramic and Kevlavron armor is produced by Ukraine.
          2. Selevc
            Selevc 5 December 2012 14: 29
            +1
            So what do you suggest - to overweight the BTR-4 with grilles like the Strikers so that they look like mobile troughs? :)))))

            The armor of a prospective armored personnel carrier should be designed specifically to counter RPG-7 since it is the most massive weapon used in the world against armored vehicles ... It is everywhere - even in the poorest countries, all kinds of rebels and terrorists, and mine BTR-4 will encounter it first of all ...
            1. Splin
              Splin 5 December 2012 14: 40
              +4
              There are four with such bars.

              And KAZ "Zaslon" can save from RPGs without screens
              1. Selevc
                Selevc 5 December 2012 15: 24
                0
                Do you like this version of the BTR-4 modification yourself? Personally, I don’t ... It seems to me that this option can be used only as a short-term solution, but for the future you need to come up with something more compact ...

                The use of such a machine is very doubtful in battle - it doesn’t drive all the way — I’m not talking about narrow city streets; it’s enough to put 2-3 ordinary cars in them and this nonsense will not pass ... And if it is nevertheless beaten out of it It will be problematic to quickly evacuate ...
                1. Splin
                  Splin 5 December 2012 15: 30
                  +2
                  Selevc,

                  This is not for us. And the customer wanted such screens.
                  1. Selevc
                    Selevc 5 December 2012 15: 42
                    +1
                    I understand this ... The presence of such bulky screens indicates a clear inadequate reservation of the car ... However, this trend is now observed with armored personnel carriers of all countries participating in the hostilities recently ...
                    1. Splin
                      Splin 5 December 2012 15: 50
                      +2
                      "Fly" burns 200-mm - thicker frontal armor of the heavy T-10 tank. If you want super-protection - buy BMPT-64.
                      1. Selevc
                        Selevc 5 December 2012 15: 59
                        -1
                        But flies are not as widespread as RPG-7 ... I think in the future some interesting engineering solution will be found instead of screens ...
                  2. leon-iv
                    leon-iv 5 December 2012 16: 08
                    0
                    the Arabs always smiled at me.
                    Although they don’t have to do hidden marches in winter along a snowy forest road
    11. uhjpysq
      uhjpysq 5 December 2012 13: 00
      -6
      I really apologize, but why autonomous))))))))) Ukraine VPK (however, like the army) there are more serious players in the arms market.))) fight the Romanians))))))) duck they are NATO)) ) nizya. may trample on Moscow under a star-blue flag.
      1. Splin
        Splin 5 December 2012 13: 17
        +4
        uhjpysq,
        Why does the Czech Republic have its military-industrial complex? Because it is money and big money. And about competition and serious players. Ukraine took the 2nd place in the sale of armored personnel carriers, letting slow Finns in front and lowering Russia to the third position, it’s good that they didn’t start collecting fighters with China!
    12. Selevc
      Selevc 5 December 2012 13: 24
      0
      The military engineering of the Czech Republic and Ukraine has its long glorious history and vast experience - if only we would not lose all this and pass on our knowledge to the old generation to the young ...
    13. Kars
      Kars 5 December 2012 13: 37
      +5
      Ukrainian armored vehicles through the eyes of a design engineer


      Yeah, the article was not about anything. It was apparently written out of indignation that Kazakhstan decided to buy the 4 armored personnel carrier, and the Iraq contract continues to be fulfilled, and despite all the tales of Gurkhan that Thailand is flooding, and they refuse from the Stronghold in favor of UVZesny floating transporters.

      Even close are even attempts to rethink the situation of Ukraine and the needs of its army.
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 5 December 2012 13: 43
        +1
        Do you again have a gurkhan popol? laughing
        Are you tired?
        Personally, it has become disgusting for me to read both Tarasenko and Those articles of the Gurkhan where he measures letters.
        But Tarasenko generally has a Svidomo nursery in the most neglected form. And before it was interesting to read.
        1. Kars
          Kars 5 December 2012 14: 43
          0
          Quote: leon-iv
          But at Tarasenko’s edge, the Svidomo nursery in its most neglected form

          Well, no compliments.
    14. Selevc
      Selevc 5 December 2012 13: 50
      +2
      And here is what I dug up about the real combat experience of using BTR-s like Stryker:

      "The US command in Iraq has compiled a report evaluating the effectiveness of the eight-wheeled armored personnel carrier Stryker. According to the military, this vehicle is so inconsistent with the tasks that are assigned to it that it can hardly be modified for use in the military," according to the Washington Post ...

      According to the servicemen who had to deal with the Strykers in Iraq, this vehicle is extremely unreliable, has low firepower, is poorly protected from anti-tank and small arms weapons, and is also very ill-considered designed.

      Among the advantages that an armored personnel carrier possesses is only relative comfort when driving over rough terrain, which is common to all wheeled armored vehicles compared to tracked ones.

      According to the soldiers who fought on such vehicles, they can be completely destroyed with one successful shot from an RPG-7 grenade launcher. To protect against these weapons, all the armored personnel carriers deployed in Iraq were equipped with special anti-cumulative gratings, which were designed to explode cumulative ammunition before they reach the armor.

      Despite the fact that these grilles in reality stop no more than half of the grenades that fire at armored personnel carriers, they seriously overload the Strikers. The mechanics are forced to check the tire pressure three times a day.

      If you use such a reinforced armored personnel carrier within one day, then during this time you need to change nine tires. This is compounded by serious supply problems, which suffer from constant convoy attacks by partisan units.

      Excessive weight becomes a critical problem during rainy weather. In these cases, "Strikers" generally try not to use, since they not only cannot move over rough terrain, but even get bogged down in muddy dirt roads. A relatively weak engine in such conditions breaks down very quickly.

      As for weapons, here the military turned out to have a lot of claims against the designers. In particular, they are not satisfied with the MK19 grenade launcher, which some modifications of this machine are equipped with.

      In addition to the fact that it is impossible to hit a target from it in conditions of poor visibility, at night and during movement, it is also dangerous for the military personnel themselves - the fact is that the position of the armored personnel carrier is located just in front of him and in case of a spontaneous shot this can lead to death of an officer.

      The electronic fire control system also caused a lot of complaints. In particular, the black-and-white screen used to launch the grenade launcher does not allow us to distinguish between the colors of cars, which is an important factor in a police operation.

      The machine also has many other disadvantages, among which are the inconvenient design of seat belts. This seemingly harmless flaw caused the death of three servicemen as a result of several car crashes when armored personnel carriers turned over.

      In general, the number of casualties in the crews of the Strykers is quite small - only 17 people. However, these machines began to be used in Iraq only after the end of the active phase of the war - in the late spring of 2003. Thus, all attacks were carried out only with the help of outdated grenade launchers and road mines. In addition, after it became clear that these armored personnel carriers are dangerous, first of all, for their crews, they began to be used extremely rarely.

      So far, nothing is known about the Pentagon's reaction to this document. Perhaps, the Washington Post believes, it will be abandoned altogether in favor of older vehicles - the Bradley tracked infantry fighting vehicles and the M113 armored personnel carrier. "



      Amer has already reached their Strikers - noooo - it’s better for them to make their own beautiful limousines - they can do it better:
      1. cdrt
        cdrt 5 December 2012 14: 40
        +1
        this year what article did you dig up? wink
        neither M113 nor M2 were chosen. They completely abandoned M2 (although they developed MRAP). After all, this is their advantage (when they saw the inconsistency of the concept of their equipment with the conditions, they reacted, created, purchased a new class of equipment, as a result - a sharp reduction in losses from explosions). Our military lacked neither their experience (Afghan, both Chechnya), nor the analysis of a stranger (Afghan Americans, Iraq) for a clear definition of requirements, and the defense industry did not have enough of an understanding of how such as MRAP designs could be done successfully. Bottom line: "stupid" Americans, faced with a threat they did not think about, responded to it and adapted. "Smart" we - faced a threat, many military decided - that's what the war is, so that the soldiers die (by the way, idiots are often found on the forums (it's funny and surprising that from the former military) who prove that the security of transport does not affect losses (despite the fact that the statistics of Iraq-Afgan speaks otherwise), and remained to sit still. The defense industry - began to do something only under fear castration exclusion from purchases by the MO. Again - bone and dullness. (the fact that money is not allocated - probably not worth referring to - the T-95 combat tripod, which really surpasses all the tanks of the planet (as a result, expensive and probably not a very priority at the moment) there was money, for "idealistic" Wishlist with They were "Burlak", but there was no MRAP for much less breakthrough studies ??? Despite the fact that there was no need to create one that did not have analogs. ...
        1. Selevc
          Selevc 5 December 2012 16: 11
          0
          Amer is also not as responsive as you write ... They that when they designed the Stryker did not know about the existence of the RPG-7?

          The old grandfather-grenade launcher in the hands of the most impoverished rebels turned out to be a formidable weapon against armored vehicles of the leading countries of the world ... The grenade launcher is already half a century old - and the amers against it cannot come up with effective and compact protection ... They also have their own bureaucracy there and when they create then they shout something new to the whole world about ultramodern weapons ... And the statistics of real military operations indicate the opposite ...

          And any of their own Ameri praise ranging from the vaunted Sherman, bazooka, M-16, Stealth, Chinukov, etc. etc. - they just have the right strategy - their own means the best, no matter what Mr. It really is ... At least potential enemies should hear about it ...

          In Ukraine and in the Russian Federation, not the most ideal armored vehicles, but we don’t swallow the whole world about our miraculous technology ...
    15. cdrt
      cdrt 5 December 2012 14: 10
      +1
      and in my opinion, it’s just envious to the Russians: the BTR-4 is definitely a more modern vehicle than the BTR-8X of any modifications (and heavier, i.e. more protection, and a layout that allows the main function to be performed normally - delivery and quick landing of infantry). The military-industrial complex (aka Arzamas) did not have enough brains to create something similar 20 years after the collapse of the USSR (as usual excuse - the military ordered what they did ... interestingly did the BTR-4 take initiative or did the Ukrainian military turn on and order? ) For tanks - actually the same thing - T-84 / Oplot / Yatagan / BM Oplot (T-84 - it is also slightly doped T-80UD). For starters, the USSR tank was created as a modernization of the most promising (in the opinion of still Soviet military and specialists) tank. The main feature / problem of the T-80 - the army’s unwillingness to operate tanks with a gas turbine engine (here the cost of a gas turbine engine and the need for more tankers for parts with a gas turbine engine) were solved by a diesel engine (moreover, it was quite successful thanks to the refinement of the concept of such an engine for more than 20 years of production The T-64, the running T-80, was always more advanced compared to the T-72 (and seemed to have similar reliability), the protection - the T-80 had the best, respectively, and the T-84 had the same + declared modularity. It was created by the Ukrainian industry quite advanced (they claim that they were able to implement a scheme that Could NOT (could not) bring to the mind of the Research Institute of Steel), KAZ - also brought to mind (the same Poles demonstrate machines with him, and not with Trophy, for example ). And the Russian Federation - and finished the T-72 (aka T-90), and usually reached the level of Ukrainian vehicles with a delay of 1 to several years (and even then not always).
      And all this !!! with the times worse situation with the financing of the defense industry (if only at the expense of 3 times the size of the country).
      It is clear that KhTZ was the flagship of the tank industry of the Russian Federation, the Morozov Design Bureau was again the leader, and in general, many of the most complex production of the USSR were in the USSR. But (!) Stamping the BTR-80 for 20 years with a clear wretchedness of the layout is laziness, arrogance, the monopolistic dictatorship of the defense industry and the military insanity in the Russian Federation in relation to its own army.
      Final score:
      Ukr. BTR-4 (created, manufactured, purchased by its army, sold for export) - Russia (nothing new has been created, BTR-8X is produced, it is purchased, it is sold)
      Ukr. BM Oplot (aka T-80UUUU :-) - created, manufactured, purchased, sold) - RF (T-90A / S - the rest is created, but not produced, not purchased by its army, not sold for export).
      2-0 in favor of the Ukrainian defense industry.
      Well, since enviously, the main argument of our "hurray-patriots who have no analogues" is that you have all the garbage ukrov, ours (Boomerang, Armata, that's just the announced walking tripod) will be so steeper that finally ...
      Ukr. the same "snake-patriots unasvseluchshee" on the contrary - in the Russian Federation there is stagnation, stupidity, nothing new (and so on up to the racial explanation of the superiority of the Ukrainians over the Finno-Tatars), without looking back at other realities (for example, the volume of arms purchases, the financial success of large defense enterprises of the Russian Federation (despite the fact that the purchases of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation were scanty for 20 years - the same diversified UVZ, the same successful KTRV, Rosvertol, etc.).
      1. Splin
        Splin 5 December 2012 14: 20
        +4
        cdrt,

        Extras.
        The Poles also put the Obra KOEP on their tanks. This is the first version of "Varta" which has a wider spectral range than the Soviet "Shtora"
        "Varta-M" can even catch ultraviolet light from "Spike"
      2. leon-iv
        leon-iv 5 December 2012 14: 48
        +2
        and in my opinion it’s just envious to the Russians: the BTR-4 is definitely a more modern machine than the BTR-8X of any modifications
        Who told you?
        T-80 - the unwillingness of the army to operate tanks with a gas turbine engine
        This is the unavailability of the gas turbine engine itself consuming hundreds of oil.
        DZ - created by the Ukrainian industry is quite advanced (they claim that they were able to implement a scheme that Could NOT (could not) bring to the mind of NII Steel),
        Are you talking about a knife? Well then I call the spirit of holivar.
        KAZ - also brought to mind (the same Poles demonstrate machines with him, and not with Trophy for example)
        Oga infantry for this and KAZ will say such a thank you))))
        and Ukrainian level usually reached machines with a delay of 1 to several years (and even then not always).
        Oh miracles then what. Current here is the 1 nuance in our tanks are mass-produced there in a single unit.
        And here is the nuance of 1 tank can be assembled for exhibitions, but the series))))) which we observe with Oplot (which, according to some sources, did not even pass the test in a full cycle).
        It is clear that KhTZ was the flagship of the tank industry of the Russian Federation, the Morozov Design Bureau was again the leader, and in general, many of the most complex production of the USSR were in the USSR.
        But the T-80LKZ was developing. This is for reference.
        Ukr. BTR-4 (created, manufactured, purchased by its army, sold for export).
        Nenka bought 10 pieces, so what?
        nothing new has been created, BTR-8X is produced, it is purchased, it is sold
        Google boomerang and fancy
        Ukr. BM Oplot (aka T-80UUUU :-) - created, manufactured, purchased, sold)
        A stronghold of 49 Thailand 10 to itself (Emnip has not yet been paid)
        Well, you can certainly add damask bulbs Schaub was not offensive.
        76 pcs for nenki.
        And Schaub nebilo offensively throw 320 Ud-to Pakistani (I will not plus our supplies)
        455 is taking into account modernized and ud-k.

        RF (T-90A / S - the rest is created, but not produced, not purchased by its army, not sold for export).
        500 T-90 of all issues of the RF Armed Forces
        Indians ok 700 pcs + deliveries continue but already car kits
        Algeria 185 + 120 (by contract)
        Turkmenistan 10 + 20 ordered
        Uganda 31 pcs
        total approx 1400pcs
        What are our bad tanks shopper no one buys them

        Threat and UD-shki new Pakis sold or from the Armed Forces?
        1. Splin
          Splin 5 December 2012 14: 54
          +4
          leon-iv,
          I will say this by inertia, considering Russia identically with the USSR. Only now, the Indians began holding tenders for the purchase of fighters and attack helicopters. The disappearance of the main buyer should sober up hot heads.
          1. leon-iv
            leon-iv 5 December 2012 16: 04
            0
            Oh come on, tell tales all right))))
            The godfather is just the same with the Indians working on related topics. They all know very well. According to the fighters, the muddy story is said, they brought in french suits VERY MUCH. And the vertices of the Apache victory are well deserved.
            And if everything was so bad, they would not buy car kits.
            1. Splin
              Splin 5 December 2012 17: 52
              +1
              It's not just about the Hindus. Russia is losing its large markets, and the West is intercepting
      3. Nazrug
        Nazrug 5 December 2012 15: 04
        -1
        Why this vyser?) Some kind of illiterate nonsense, based on emotions, wiped the fat out of the head of the "no analogues". Regarding yours and ours, cheers for patriots: Russian patriots are distinguished by the fact that they shout that everything is the best in the world, and the Ukrainians shout that everything is better with them than in Russia. It is still not clear what the Russians are jealous of, and as far as I know, the best-selling tank in the world (I’m not saying that the best one) is the T-90, not a stronghold. The Russian military-industrial complex is designed to create weapons primarily for its own army, as in all normal countries, to create something new knowing that it will not be accepted into service (which means there will be no purchases) and hope that it will be bought by the armies of others countries, it's crazy, so it's cheaper to modernize the old, which is simply unrealistic in parts.
      4. Diesel
        Diesel 5 December 2012 15: 53
        0
        Quote: cdrt
        T-90A / S is not for export


        Shieldoo? laughing T-90S sold much more than strongholds) and sell further
        1. cdrt
          cdrt 5 December 2012 17: 21
          +1
          oh ... :-) a typical example is either a demagogue, or a person with a rather flickering perception of the meaning of the text :-) it’s necessary, on the same page with the post to pull out the word and the phrase that does not belong to this word, blind them together and to refute the result. Fiction right wink
          Well, maybe, because there are 2 misunderstood - this is a mixed text :-)
          Everything that was done, produced, purchased and exported - T-90A / S (T-90A and T-90S wink ) The rest is not produced, not purchased, not actually exported. Yes, given that the T-90 is a direct development of the T-72, of course, it will be purchased by those countries that operate the T-72, T-80 / T-84 / Oplot, which is another tank that they will have to master again in operation. The question is not directly in the quantity exported, but in what solutions are implemented in machines ...
    16. cdrt
      cdrt 5 December 2012 14: 25
      +3
      By the way - the above are photographs of the comparison of the BTR-T and BMPT-64.
      Again - the top of the development of TBTR in the Russian Federation is today BMO-T. Compared with the incomprehensible freak of the TBTR (with up to capacity suitable only for the airborne :-) and with the release of infantry directly under enemy fire), the BMO-T is certainly an advanced solution, and the cost of remaking from the T-72 is captivating (12,5 million announced rubles, despite the fact that the repair / modernization of BMP-1/2 costs 10-20 million rubles, while for a modern war, in my opinion, in a large number of cases TBTR with a machine gun will be much more useful than BMP-2 with a whole battery). So far there is no better - it is not clear why, instead of decommissioning the T-80, the old T-72 can’t be put on stream for their alteration in the TBTR and other official vehicles.
      If you look at the BMPT-64, then this is, in general, the "bright future" of the TBMP (we will see it on the Armata, of course) in the Russian Federation. The same alteration of the tank as the BMO-T, but how much more reasonable the layout (with probably not 2-5 times the cost of the alteration by shutting with the BMO-T.
      Again - Ukrainian tank design bureaus / factories just worked their heads a little better (as I understand it - for their money). What prevented us from doing this is completely incomprehensible ...
    17. Selevc
      Selevc 5 December 2012 14: 27
      +1
      T-90A / S - the rest is created, but not produced, not purchased by its army, not sold for export


      How is it that you, like the T-90 of India, delivered, and in quite large quantities ... And it seems that the Russian army is buying them ...

      And in Ukraine, in addition to the Pakistani order, no T-84s have yet been acquired and the Ukrainian army ordered only 20 of them in 20 years of independence, and it is not known how much of this quantity actually arrived in the troops ...
      1. cdrt
        cdrt 5 December 2012 14: 46
        0
        So they delivered the T-90S, and they themselves bought the T-90A - what did you write wrong?
        T-84 - Pakistan, Oplot - 49 Thailand, Sami - 20, yes.
        T-90S India, as far as I remember 350 with something set + car kits (too lazy to look for how much).
        And how much of the Russian Federation did the T-90A purchase?
        And if you take into account that the Armed Forces are 5-7 times less than the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, and there is no oil / gas in Ukraine for export?
        1. Selevc
          Selevc 5 December 2012 15: 22
          +1
          It’s interesting, but how much did the Russian Federation purchase the T-90 of all modifications for its army?

          We do not have oil and gas - but we have an oil and gas transportation system in which billions of bucks are spinning and they leave where it is unknown !!!
          1. leon-iv
            leon-iv 5 December 2012 16: 06
            +1
            ok 500. Now the T-72 is brought up to the level of T-72B2 which bypasses T-90A on the 2006 EMNIP contracts for T-72BM (semi-crate) 150pcs. And at 350 T-72B2 about 2012.
            1. Selevc
              Selevc 5 December 2012 16: 10
              0
              Well - Ukraine bought 20 new tanks and the Russian Federation 500 - 25 times more !!!
      2. Splin
        Splin 5 December 2012 14: 49
        +4
        Selevc,
        BM Oplot should be compared with the T-90MA. A BM Bulat with T-90A, i.e. proportionally the same. in purchases.
        1. leon-iv
          leon-iv 5 December 2012 16: 07
          -2
          Who told you that ?????
          proportionally the same. in purchases.

          In the sense? the RF Armed Forces now have priority not SV but Navy / Air Force / Strategic Rocket Forces / Communications, but not SV at all.
    18. Nechai
      Nechai 5 December 2012 15: 17
      0
      Quote: Selevc
      it would be better if it could withstand the hit of an RPG-7, since such weapons are likely to be encountered in the same Iraq ...

      Quote: Orey
      Even modern tanks do not hold RPG-7 in all projections ...

      Quote: Splin
      This simple device holds the PG-7VM shot.

      Knife screens are very effective against ALL comulative weapons. And no one canceled the active defense systems.
      That in Russia, that in Ukraine ONE and the same fundamental PROBLEM! - Loot wins EVERYTHING! And without rejection of this postulate, the creation of "sapiens economies" is not possible ...
      Regarding the relationship of the Ukrainian military-industrial complex with the countries of NATA - When Kharkiv, after a successful probe with the newly acquired countries of the Atlantic Alliance, on the issue of modernizing Soviet technology, came to the leadership of the bloc, Rasmussen gave them head on - "we are interested in creating jobs in England, the USA, Germany, France, Italy, and ABSOLUTELY NOT interested in the presence of high-tech production in Ukraine "- neither add nor subtract. These "partners" in Russia are doing their best to achieve the same results. When the commander of the amerskoy aircraft carrier was asked by our journalists how he would react to the hypothetical possibility of such ships appearing in the Russian Navy, he bluntly answered: “Why does Russia need aircraft carriers ?! " The leaderships of our countries (the ruling "elites") in every possible way obscure before their electorate what our countries and their partners consider, to put it mildly, at least as mandated territories ...
    19. pidluts
      pidluts 5 December 2012 17: 41
      0
      I didn’t even read the article, I left immediately for comments soldier it's hot here drinks
    20. Machingver
      Machingver 5 December 2012 17: 55
      -4
      The fact that the Russians envy is good, the main thing is that they have nothing to answer ... request
    21. Trevis
      Trevis 5 December 2012 19: 30
      0
      Mashwingver (1) are you sure that the Russians are jealous and they have nothing to answer?
    22. gregor6549
      gregor6549 6 December 2012 03: 36
      +2
      Guys, the article is named quite clearly: "Ukrainian armored vehicles through the eyes of a design engineer", but in the article itself and in most of the comments, there is another "blizzard" about politics. At the same time, it should be noted that Ukraine has always had a very powerful design potential, which made a very significant contribution to the creation of a wide variety of weapon systems and military equipment of the former USSR, including armored vehicles and missiles, military radio electronics and cybernetics, etc.
      Naturally, after the collapse of the USSR, many experienced engineering and design personnel were lost, and nobody particularly bothered with their reproduction. But this is the misfortune of all the former republics of the USSR, and Russia is no exception. On the other hand, in Ukraine and Russia there are still a lot of bright heads and skillful hands capable of creating the above-mentioned equipment at the level of world standards.
      Therefore, instead of "spitting" on their own former colleagues in a common cause, it would be good to see a professional assessment of their current achievements, even taking into account the fact that these colleagues are temporarily on the other side of the "fence." The fence is such a temporary matter, especially since it was built by people who care about everything except the authorities and attendants. They also rolled barrels to my native Belarus, but now it turned out that it was in vain. The same will happen with Ukraine. She will not run away from Russia anywhere, because she has nowhere to run and there is no need for her.