Why you should never destroy decommissioned aircraft

95
Why you should never destroy decommissioned aircraft


Extermination


Exactly 30 years ago, through the efforts of the late Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Air Force Pyotr Deinekin, the destruction of the numerous IBA - fighter-bomber aviation.



Many hundreds of Su-17M2, M3, M4, MiG-27 aircraft of various modifications, and with them MiG-21, MiG-23 fighters, ended up at the so-called "aircraft storage bases", which were then renamed "reserve bases". , storage, disposal of aircraft. The reason was allegedly the low reliability of combat aircraft with one engine, which did not correspond to the truth at all.

During numerous local wars, all these aircraft demonstrated the highest survivability.

Together with them, hundreds of Su-25 attack aircraft and Su-24 bombers of the first series were enrolled under the same brush. So these bases ended up with entire air divisions, often brand new aircraft, many of which had a flight time of only a few tens of hours.


These were thousands of quite modern combat aircraft.

Many aviation technicians, who were ordered to destroy their own brand new aircraft, wept.

Su-17M4, MiG-27D, MiG-23 MLD had quite decent sighting and navigation systems even by today's standards. And the Su-24 could fly in the MVP mode - low-altitude flight in the mode of enveloping the terrain.

They say that in those damned 90s, many people involved got rich on the sales of non-ferrous and precious metals from the "destruction bases".

And what now?


Now, when the public now and then raises the question of why the Russian Aerospace Forces are having difficulty hitting targets, including bridges and tunnels, deep behind enemy lines, the answer is usually given an explanation that the air defense of Ukraine, reinforced by Western means of detection and destruction air targets, retained its combat capability.

And to destroy a bridge or a tunnel, many tons of explosives must be spent. In conditions of undestroyed air defense, this threatens with heavy losses. All this is so. But ...

One, even the old Su-24 (without the letter "M"), is capable of taking 25 OFAB-250-270 aerial bombs and delivering them at extremely low altitude, making it difficult to detect it to the desired bridge or tunnel.

In this aircraft, the flight in the terrain avoidance mode is automated.

And what will happen to the object after 6 tons of air bombs hit it, even if it is a bridge across the Dnieper, there is no need to say. In addition, such an approach will make it easy to open the enemy's air defense system, which will be forced to switch to combat mode and reveal itself.
After that, the destruction of enemy air defense facilities by means of destruction of the Russian Aerospace Forces or missile forces will only be a matter of a few hours.

Installing remote control and guidance equipment in automatic mode on such aircraft at the current level of development in this area is not a big deal.

Simply put, you can simply adapt existing similar systems with UAVs. This is exactly what Azerbaijan successfully did during the last Karabakh war with An-2 aircraft.

One should not think that Russia does not have aviation equipment left in storage. It still exists, and there are many.

So, maybe you should treat her in a businesslike way?

Do not cut it further to replenish the budget or, God forbid, to enrich some people. And to conduct a survey, select suitable specimens and send them for strikes against the objects of the Ukrainian Nazis.

And then to remember with a kind word the great Soviet designers, production workers and the planes themselves, who went on their last flight in the name of Victory over Nazism of the XNUMXst century.
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  1. +28
    11 May 2023 04: 42
    Exactly 30 years ago, through the efforts of the late Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Air Force Pyotr Deinekin, the destruction of the numerous IBA entered the final stage
    Is it for sure that only Deinekin had a hand in the destruction of the IBA? Did he try alone?
    1. +71
      11 May 2023 05: 56
      Quote: parusnik
      Did he try alone?

      Many people have tried there. When supersonic attack aircraft were needed during the First Chechen War, they tried to pick up the MiG-27s freshly brought there from storage ... and ... they all turned out to be ruined by avionics ... supposedly "miners-metal detectors" did their best. But at the same time, it is known about the "persuasive request" on the eve of that, from the "American friends", the wish that the MiG-27s were not only put into reserve, but were also brought to complete combat unsuitability.
      So the state of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, our Air Force, Communications, the state, quality and NUMBERS of the RF Armed Forces ... yes, everything that we have and do not have is the cumulative merit of our wonderful government. For the task of power is to live in sweetness. This is what the arrests and searches of the beginning show. rear services of our districts and armies. At only one, the ZVO was flooded during a search only in cash and securities for 30 billion rubles. "stash". But it's probably hidden offshore.
      That is why the army is so "SMALL" and painfully "productive". And the general is so rich and feigned ... "stupid".
      As a rule, the banal iZmEn@ is behind the inexplicable wealth and feigned "stupidity".
      1. +33
        11 May 2023 06: 10
        Yes, iZmEn@ has been fierce since the beginning of the 90s, sometimes they try to cover it with a fig leaf, pointing to the "switchman", "here he is the villain looming in the window" (c)
        1. +7
          12 May 2023 11: 56
          One, even the old Su-24 (without the letter "M"), is capable of taking 25 OFAB-250-270 aerial bombs and delivering them at extremely low altitude, making it difficult to detect it to the desired bridge or tunnel.

          That is why not a single bridge across the Dnieper has been destroyed. They cut down all the planes that could do this while avoiding the folds of the terrain ... I propose to let several new planes stand at the storage bases, let them gain experience in destroying bridges. fellow
          1. +16
            12 May 2023 18: 49
            not everyone here understands your sarcasm, alas ...
            In general, the complete absence of attempts to destroy the Ukrainian bridges on the Dnieper (and weak attempts to disable the railway network of Ukraine) is the same betrayal as the failure to supply ammunition to the Wagner PMC units storming the city.

            But look how many here and in the media sycophants-patriots seeking in any way, with moronic arguments to justify this betrayal. Since February 24.02.2022, 3, I have seen only 2022 articles in the media that not destroying bridges on the Dnieper is a terrible stupidity (one was here). And about a dozen articles that this is allegedly "impossible", and in one article on vz ru ( https://vz.ru/world/4/28/1155947/XNUMX.html ) it was even written:
            But in addition to purely military, there are general cultural and state considerations. A bridge across the Dnieper for people living on the banks of this great river is not just some kind of structure that helps to cross a water barrier. It's much more.
            That's how humane we are...
            1. +5
              13 May 2023 02: 57
              And if you count the comments where they supported the absence of strikes on these bridges ....
            2. +2
              13 May 2023 07: 55
              Yes, Pavel, about the lack of humor and misunderstanding of sarcasm, I have already seen on this forum. There are many horse-drawn patriots here, who take a step away from their general line, and are shot ...
              And about bridges, I understand in my own way. Their destruction will not stop the supply of equipment to the front, they will be transported by barges with overloads, albeit with a loss of time. Another thing is that without bridges, the enemy's economy will suffer significantly, but again, it is not critical, which was confirmed by our strikes on the energy sector. Remember how everyone rejoiced, plunging Ukraine into darkness, and now what? I have already said that we should not be like the "witnesses of the Bayraktar and Javelin sect", in the hope of a quick victory with the destruction of bridges or substations. The war went to the depletion of the economies of Russia and the collective West, and this is for a long time. We will not surrender, although we will bear the heaviest losses. If only the authorities didn't screw up on another Khasavyurt.
              1. +4
                13 May 2023 17: 56
                Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
                And about bridges, I understand in my own way. Their destruction will not stop the supply of equipment to the front, they will be transported by barges with overloads, albeit with a loss of time.

                Yah? Barges in Ukraine, of course, are unmeasured, and there are also berths for loading and unloading tanks - on every meter, but that's bad luck, the main resource in the war is TIME. The rest is secondary.
                1. +1
                  14 May 2023 06: 49
                  Pushkar (Sergei), Dnieper and Yu.Bug are navigable rivers, which means that each city has a cargo port with appropriate mooring walls. Barges with tugs are also not in short supply in river transport, and they are not disposable either. Tanks and other equipment on the territory of Ukraine have not been transported by railway for a long time, but auto-trailers with closed bodies are used, which has been shown on TV more than once. And to call on a barge on an equipped pier is not a big problem.
                  Yes, I am not at all against the bombing of bridges, but I understand that this will not radically cut off the supply of the front, but the economy will suffer. Did you even count how many bridges across the Dnieper? Only in Kyiv there are 6 of them, including the dam in Vyshgorod. And so on, in each regional center there are 2-4 bridges and dozens of ferry crossings in smaller settlements. Run along the Google map along the Dnieper and, taking into account the distances between cities (bridges), a detour of the damaged bridge will take a few hours. And to destroy them all .... isn't the example of the bridge in Zatoka indicative of you? We have been trying for the second year ... but it is still worth it. winked
                  1. +4
                    14 May 2023 17: 12
                    Quote: Saburov_Alexander53
                    Tanks and other equipment on the territory of Ukraine have not been transported by railway for a long time, but auto-trailers with closed bodies are used, which has been shown on TV more than once.

                    Let's start with the fact that covered eurotrailers carry no more than 22 tons, and the weight of the T64 "Oplot" is 51,9 tons. Everything else is heavier (Challenger 2 - 62,5, Leopard 2A1 - 55,15), so tank tractors carry them. The weight of the tanker is about 50 tons. With a tank, you can count for yourself. The length of a tank carrier with a semi-trailer is actually 16 meters (14 plus a meter behind and in front), the width is actually 5-6 meters. The area for the cargo of a self-propelled river barge is actually 70 by 14 meters. How many tankers can be driven there? 8 pieces, you can’t drive it across. Time for loading, fastening, setting off, transportation, mooring, fastening, unloading, what do you think, how much? Not less daylight. And this is for 8 tanks. Will Geraniums and Calibers and Iskanders sleep?
              2. +3
                13 May 2023 21: 30
                The article raises the right questions but gives the wrong answers. The collapse and plundering of the country was led by Yeltsin and Putin, and the latter, on the orders of the Americans, closed our bases in Cuba and Vietnam.
                In addition, Putin himself and the people whom he appointed ruined the training of aviation personnel, including the training of flight crews. Hence the question. Who does the author propose to sit at the controls of these aircraft? Pilots are not trained in two weeks, even on Putin's orders, it takes years, personnel and money.
              3. +2
                16 May 2023 23: 18
                Alexander, I agree with you that there is no magic strategy, or tactics, or goals, or weapons that can ensure a quick victory in such a war. But the fact that the enemy’s railway must be stopped and that the destroyed bridges across a huge river (more than a kilometer wide) is the best way to destroy railway traffic for a LONG TIME - these are just the basics of strategy! There is nothing to even argue about. Even before the war, Stalin adopted a secret program on the secret construction of tunnels next to strategic large bridges (in Khabarovsk they managed to build, and in Kyiv they built two, but did not have time before the war). Because he knew: in a big war, these bridges will be destroyed in the first place! Still with those weapons of the 1940s ...
                Of course, Ukrainians can transport equipment and ammunition to the front across the Dnieper by barges, then by trucks.
                But what will that volume be?
                10 times less than a piece of iron.

                Even a two-fold reduction in the volume of ammunition brought to the front line means thousands and thousands of lives of our soldiers on the front line in a year.

                And you can't restore such bridges in a year. The experience of the NATO war with Serbia in 1999 in full growth speaks of this.
                This is worse than any power plant that can be repaired in a month.

                In addition, at the junction stations in front of the bridges, immediately after their collapse, congestion from echelons is expected to form - a tasty target for cruise and ballistic missiles, drones and aviation. After a couple of echelons with ammunition are smashed at the railway station, it will have to be cleared and repaired for half a month. There is no time for reloading onto barges - during these fortnight in this area, nothing large will be transported to the other side of the Dnieper.
                Berths, where you can quickly and easily reload from railway to barges/vessels on the Dnieper, there may well be fewer of them than bridges (there are only 25 bridges/dams/dams: https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/7572423.html - one pedestrian in Kiev can be left). And there may well be a very unequal number of berths on the left and right banks. It is not necessary to bomb all the moorings later (after the destruction of the bridges) - it is enough to bomb those moorings, which are smaller on one side of the river.

                Just for an example and to broaden one's horizons - an unusual, extraordinary look at how the Allies could win much faster in the Second World War: https://www.stoletie.ru/territoriya_istorii/kak_sojuzniki_nam_pomogali_186.htm - does it remind you of anything from ours today?
                I give you a hint: in his Telegram channel, Oleg Tsarev probably raised the question about ten times already that the Kremenchug Oil Refinery should be put out of action. The refinery was then hit. Twice. https://t.me/olegtsarov/5107 But this refinery seems to be working anyway. Strange or what?
      2. +11
        11 May 2023 06: 54
        In addition to malicious actions, let's not forget that the conditions
        the so-called "bases for the storage of aviation equipment", which were then renamed into "bases for the reserve, storage, disposal of aircraft".
        well, this is not at all the American AMARC with its conservation measures, external conditions, and so on .... In the photo, it looks like Chebenki, we handed over our planes there angry
        Quote: parusnik
        they are trying to cover it with a fig leaf, pointing to the "switchman", "here he is the villain looming in the window" (c)
        1. +6
          11 May 2023 07: 40
          Installing remote control and guidance equipment in automatic mode on such aircraft at the current level of development in this area is not a big deal.

          We can’t solve anything with ready-made UAVs ... and here the task, although simple by the standards of modern technologies, is completely impossible for optimizers to understand the solution of “how to return this decommissioned and ready for sale to service”.
          1. -3
            12 May 2023 12: 08
            Maybe the folds of the terrain are too shallow for modern aviation to work? We will have to first deepen and expand them, and then hit the bridges. Yes, there is hard work to be done and guest workers cannot be attracted here. But we will train on our bridges, it turned out with Antonovsky in Kherson. lol
        2. +9
          11 May 2023 10: 16
          Quote: Pete Mitchell
          this is not at all the American AMARC with its conservation measures, external conditions, and so on ...

          And yet, the MiG-31 continues to be raised from storage, capitalized, modernized and returned to service for many years.
          As for the storage conditions with us, I agree - not a mountain plateau with dry air and the absence of sub-zero temperatures.
          It may and may be possible to raise some old aircraft to turn into strike UAVs, which at the same time would open air defense. But I'm afraid that it will be much more expensive than just buying more "Geraniums", which will open the air defense and strike. Yes, and we don’t have repair / production facilities for this - everything that remains is loaded to the eyeballs.
          1. +10
            11 May 2023 22: 20
            Quote: bayard
            nevertheless, the MiG-31 continues to be raised from storage for many years ... .. and returned to service. .
            This is no doubt the merit of the industry. But there was no choice either - there is nothing of the kind in production, and there is nothing close to resuming ...., but an aircraft with such characteristics is needed.
            Quote: bayard
            As for the storage conditions with us, I agree - not a mountain plateau with dry air and the absence of sub-zero temperatures
            Unfortunately, at best, planes were covered with covers, this is not AMARC sad
            The country developed when there was planning and control, and not ....
          2. 0
            11 May 2023 22: 26
            Raise from storage, MiG-31? When was it put into storage? I remember at the beginning of the century it was he who was exposed as the main opponent of the f-22. All the same, the first fighter in the world to receive a headlamp.
            1. +15
              12 May 2023 06: 08
              In the first half of the 90s, the vast majority of the MiG-31 was withdrawn from service and put into storage. They were completely removed from the northern direction (Arctic), left a little bit and Primorye ...
              But they began to return to service even before 2014, updating the avionics, installing new (modified) engines, replacing the glazing of the lanterns, updating the composition of the weapons. As a result, the speed of the MiG-31 increased to 3200 - 3400 km / h, against 2999 km / h before (the speed limit was due to the heat resistance of the glazing of the lantern - the so-called thermal barrier), new missiles appeared, and the radar detection range increased. They continue to be returned to service to this day, raising from storage bases, capital and modernizing. And it is right .
        3. +7
          11 May 2023 20: 13
          In the photo it looks like Chebenki
          Father in Chebenki conducted flight practice with cadets of the Orenburg Navigation School until the school was liquidated in 1960 - Khrushch Kukuruzny did his best.
          1. +5
            11 May 2023 22: 22
            Quote: Aviator_
            in Chebenki flight practice with cadets
            And after the collapse, the equipment was driven there "for storage" ... stop
        4. +7
          12 May 2023 06: 28
          Quote: Pete Mitchell
          Well, not an American AMARC at all ...
          In the photo it looks like Chebenki

          The garbage is that the Russian Federation does not have Arizona. Where the AMARC is, it doesn't rain every year, and the humidity is usually around 0%. No rodents, insects, mold. The only thing that deteriorates is rubber bands and plastic (especially the plexiglass of lanterns) that are not covered from ultraviolet radiation.
          And in Chebenki for 10 years in the open air, they will all be diagnosed as "not recoverable." It's been since then, mind you, not 10 or even 20.
          1. +5
            12 May 2023 15: 56
            Quote: Nagan
            The only thing that deteriorates is rubber bands and plastic (especially the plexiglass of lamps) that are not covered from ultraviolet radiation..
            Non-partner capitalists conserve their goods qualitatively. Planes are literally flooded with some kind of advanced silicone, it seems like it was there a long time ago recourse they pull them out from time to time, very successfully by the way .... Once only the engine of the 727 fell off after takeoff lol
            1. +2
              12 May 2023 16: 50
              By the way, the 16th with AMARC


              Even old people are parked there
        5. 0
          14 May 2023 21: 08
          this is the parking lot of the Rzhevsky ArZ


          Your comment text is too short
      3. +12
        11 May 2023 11: 51
        Good afternoon!
        Signed up specifically to reply. I have been reading VO for a long time, but I have never written anything.
        Mig27 is not an old bird and very beautiful, why should it be destroyed. Very sorry for them.
        1. +11
          12 May 2023 06: 13
          Quote: I_Alpharius
          Mig27 is not an old bird and very beautiful, why should it be destroyed.

          A very successful supersonic attack aircraft with an armored cockpit (at the level of the Su-25), capable of a low-altitude breakthrough at supersonic speed.
          For this, he was among the very first to be decommissioned and immediately dismantled at the storage bases.
          Quote: I_Alpharius
          Very sorry for them.

          They regretted what they had done already during the First Chechen War.
        2. 0
          3 December 2023 21: 56
          because they said from above that it wasn’t worth pennies. Fire officers, scrap equipment
    2. +8
      11 May 2023 07: 50
      Nobody said he was alone. But the order was signed by him.
      1. +16
        11 May 2023 07: 57
        Order, yes, but who will give money for recycling? Ivan Fedorovich Kruzenshtern? A man and a ship? And who will feed around the recycling? And this is all one commander in chief? Then it turns out, figase, he gathered a gang. smile
      2. +7
        11 May 2023 20: 19
        Nobody said he was alone. But the order was signed by him.
        What is true is true - he signed it, now Herostratus glory is his forever.
  2. +11
    11 May 2023 06: 11
    Optimized.

    But what is characteristic, the capitalists themselves can no longer produce aircraft in the volumes of the USSR. But the planes were thrown out anyway (to storage bases) as unnecessary ... And here. Oh, there was a war!
    1. +19
      11 May 2023 09: 04
      CBO comrade, CBO, which we haven’t even started yet, and don’t cast a shadow on the wattle fence, don’t rock the galley, don’t shake the pipe, oh sorry, that is, braces, etc. and so on. hi
  3. +21
    11 May 2023 06: 46
    The idea in the article is sound (China has converted a lot of old fighters into drones), but only after all, the mustachioed gentleman explained to us that we are not at war ... This means that the “top” doesn’t have to worry too much - if they lose the “non-war”, then nothing fundamentally Will not change. Even the explosion of a drone in the Kremlin did not wake them up...
  4. +6
    11 May 2023 07: 58
    But the share of new equipment in the RF Armed Forces has increased laughing
    A disgrace, there were over a thousand "old" Mi-24s, there were "new" 160 Mi-28s. But the biggest problem is the flight crew ...
    1. +11
      11 May 2023 08: 54
      The very problem is just the release of a new AT:
      In 2021, 19 combat aircraft were produced in Russia, and KVVAUL produced 561 pilots of all stripes.
      In 2022, 27 combat aircraft were produced, in KVVAUL the release amounted to more than 400 people.
      I didn’t find any information on combat helicopters right off the bat, more than 2021 people were released in Syzran in 300. In any case, the gap is huge.
      1. +5
        11 May 2023 16: 06
        Numbers are depressing...
        What is 19 or 27 aircraft per year .. but they are not enough to make up for the natural loss of aircraft ...
        and there are 561 pilots ... and in five years, out of these 561, no more than 150 people will remain in the VKS.
        the rest will go into civilian life or be removed from flight work for health reasons ..
    2. -12
      11 May 2023 14: 19
      "there were over a thousand "old" Mi-24s, there were "new" 160 Mi-28s. But the biggest problem is the flight crew ..."
      Sorry, but how can you compare these two helicopters? MI-24 is an armored MI-8! MI-28 is a pure drummer !!!
      1. +2
        12 May 2023 19: 17
        And that the Mi 24 strikes worse than the Mi28
      2. +1
        14 May 2023 02: 16
        Mi8 and Mi24 are completely different machines. Learn the materiel
  5. +19
    11 May 2023 09: 42
    There is only one problem in essence.
    Complete irresponsibility of the authorities.

    "They say that in those damned 90s, many people involved got rich on the sales of non-ferrous and precious metals from the "destruction bases."
    AND? anyone convicted? at least full name made public? an audit and audit of the actions of "Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Air Force Pyotr Deinekin" was carried out?

    The answer is public.
    The people who dared to give their full names are sitting. Included in the list of all sorts of organizations there.

    Therefore, there will be no sense, IMHO.
    The same boyars who lobbied for Boeing and iPhone, slandered the aviation industry, squandered money on "iPhone killers", kept children in the USA (until they forcibly kicked their son out), are still at the helm and now they teach everyone to "hate the collective West", they themselves record sending resources there...
    1. +3
      11 May 2023 22: 19
      Quote: Max1995
      AND? anyone convicted? at least full name made public?

      Full - full of people were put in aviation for precious metals in the 1990s. And small and big bosses too ...
  6. +5
    11 May 2023 09: 57
    "In addition, such an approach will allow you to easily open the enemy's air defense system, which will be forced to switch to combat mode and reveal itself."
    I constantly say this that cooks and taxi drivers would have ended this war long ago. There would be a desire. Putin's goal is not to win the war, but to be allowed to "trade the Motherland" on his own terms.
  7. -6
    11 May 2023 10: 51
    Some wet fantasies about the Su-24 and other museum exhibits ...
  8. +5
    11 May 2023 11: 24
    The Americans have long developed an autonomous remote control system, mounted instead of an ejection seat in the cockpit of the F-16 (such as an "undocumented" feature of the QF-16).
    Such an aircraft can be equipped with both standard air-to-air or air-to-ground weapons, and converted into a kamikaze with the installation of containers with explosives based on old PTBs (explosives can also be filled with conformal tanks). The total mass of explosives in such a "guided bomb" can exceed 10 tons, and the flight range practically corresponds to the ferry range (more than 3000 km).
    The ability to automatically shoot traps and perform an anti-aircraft maneuver is present. Just take out bridges (and dams), completely.
    1. +4
      11 May 2023 22: 25
      Quote: vadimtt
      like an "undocumented" feature of the QF-16 ... in such a "guided bomb" it can
      I'm so sorry, but can I get the source of this news
      1. +3
        12 May 2023 09: 25
        I don’t remember right now, most likely a short article in Janes Defense Weekly, around 2015. But I could be wrong, it's just that the possibility of autonomous combat operation of the "target" was deposited in my memory.
        1. +2
          12 May 2023 09: 54
          Hello. Directly on the Boeing website
          Boeing and the US Air Force completed the first unmanned flight of the QF-16 full-scale aerial target on September 23, 2013 at Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida.
          The QF-16's mission profile included automatic takeoff, a series of simulated maneuvers, supersonic flight, and an automatic landing without a pilot in the cockpit.
          All eight wing stations are active, with a pre-wired spare payload, and feature a modular payload design for ease of programming.
          F-16 Maneuverability: Fully serviced, including supersonic speeds and 9g turns.
          https://www.boeing.com/defense/support/qf-16/index.page
          instead of an ejection seat
          And the chair is in place, and the equipment is in a predetermined place, from the times when the boxes were cabinets. Then the AI ​​again defeated the F-16 pilot in close air combat, the radio was turned off, then on a cruise missile.
          1. +1
            12 May 2023 12: 13
            For what I bought, for that I sold it.
            So this is not about QF-16, but about a related project with an autonomous version of AI. The AI ​​that won, by the way, was not inside the plane (and this is a rather murky story so far).
            1. +1
              12 May 2023 13: 39
              was not inside the aircraft
              First outside, now inside. All the same, takeoff, maneuver, landing. For training, simulation or communication, communication is no longer needed for use. They could run training sets on 25 DGx1 servers at the same time. But what they ended up producing could run on a single GPU.
              https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a29847417/f-16-drone/
              1. +4
                12 May 2023 15: 50
                The conversion of the 16s to the QF-16 target is going according to plan, this is a long-standing fact. And compared to QF-4, this is a serious step forward for learning. I just never met information specifically about the use of the 16th as a kamikaze. It's somehow not very cheap for amers recourse
                1. +1
                  12 May 2023 16: 18
                  And why a kamikaze, if it has been landing with them for a long time. They write on the target page that the bomb racks are active, probably plus the tank on the central ninth pylon, the end ones are light there, amraam-sidewinders will be hung there. Unbound by a gentle pilot, spinning nine. Then it is a returning, defending, carrying a load that is not needed by a clean target, from which it already follows, one and the same project.
                  Combat radius: with conformal tanks, 5542 l in PTB, 2 × 907 kg of bombs, along the profile large-small-small-high altitude: 1565 km
                  Seepage at low altitude could be improved. Mined. Gorka, waiting, jasm, esdebe, if the rubbish does not fall apart, perhaps back to the base.
                  1. +2
                    12 May 2023 16: 42
                    No, the QF-16 was not created for this. All this can be done, of course, with his EDSU is not a great problem. But there are simpler, cheaper and no less accessible systems. Moreover, such a system will be devoid of human flexibility and unpredictability. feel
                    1. +2
                      12 May 2023 16: 45
                      A viable disposal method, there's a lot in the field, no flexibility, with a minimum of effort and as part of continuing research.
                      Flexibility
                      — Commander, two degrees to the right.
                      Commander zero attention.
                      “Commander, thirty degrees to starboard.
                      “Got it, thirty degrees to the right.
                      “Commander, now twenty-eight degrees to the left.
                      1. +1
                        12 May 2023 23: 31
                        Fashionable rocket, fuck them.
                        AMD-160C MALD-J by F-16 wing (c) Raytheon
                        After launch, the UAV flies in an autonomous mode without communicating with the carrier aircraft and ground stations. The MALD jammer made its first test flight on 09.01.1999/6100/850. The launch was made at an altitude of 16 meters, a speed of XNUMX km / h from an F-XNUMX aircraft.
                        The modified rocket received surveillance and data transmission systems, thanks to which it can conduct reconnaissance of the territory.
                        Weight, kg take-off 45.8
                        Thrust, kgf 1 x 22.75
                      2. +1
                        17 May 2023 23: 53
                        Weird that Wikipedia gives a different mass of this thing (more realistic btw):
                        MALD: 279 lb (127 kg)
                        MALD-J: 286 lb (130 kg) (est)

                        I immediately have a question about this autonomous decoy: do we have anything similar in combat aviation? With approximately the same modest dimensions, weighing in the region of 100-200 kg, with approximately the same subsonic speed and range? And if not, why not?
                      3. +1
                        18 May 2023 13: 05
                        Half a centner in the first version, two or three times the growth in subsequent ones.
                        and we have
                        This is a great question!
                        This project is a direct consequence of another DARPA program - Small Engine Advanced Program (SENGAP) - a program to create a promising small-sized engine.
                        As a result of work under the SENGAP program, a miniature jet engine with a thrust of 22.7 kgf was created, which received the designation TJ-50.
                        Power plant: simple design with few assembly units (main parts 8, assembly units 20), commercial suppliers of components.
                        At present, MGTD of this class
                        are not produced in Russia. Among foreign companies, manufacturers of MGTE, one can single out
                        - Rolls Royce (Great Britain),
                        - SAFRAN (France)
                        - PBS (Czech Republic), see brochure "Turbine engines"
                        https://www.ciam.ru/upload/iblock/667/667bf7b065f498335dd5511509f85be1.pdf
                        http://repo.ssau.ru/handle/Uchebnye-izdaniya/Malorazmernye-aviacionnye-gazoturbinnye-dvigateli-96282
                        https://www.pbs.cz/getmedia/6d1377b7-ae12-4b03-9c8d-359b2695f1ad/PBS-Brochure-Turbine-Engines-v-01-2023.pdf.aspx
                      4. +1
                        23 May 2023 23: 53
                        Thanks for the answer. I understood the main problem: we do not have such an engine.

                        But the Czechs have it (it was their engines that were on those cruise missiles that the Houthis, at the suggestion of Iran, launched into the oil refineries of the Saudis).

                        This is just a similar story as with the Orion / Pacer drone (I come from the city where they should be mass-produced). For 7-8 years, our designers have been slowly adding their APD-115T engine to them instead of the original imported Austrian Rotax 914.
  9. +4
    11 May 2023 11: 45
    What a mess in the state is going on!
  10. +1
    11 May 2023 12: 05
    found the extreme, you might think he alone made decisions. signed - yes! but in such cases it is a LOT of instances that must sign and not one person.
    1. +6
      11 May 2023 20: 24
      but in such cases it is a LOT of instances that must sign and not one person.
      It is precisely one person who approves the decision, Deinekin had the opportunity not to get into trouble, but he got into it (almost like Swan with Khasavyurt), now both of them will forever remain in history as a brown odorous heap, over which flies are circling.
  11. +2
    11 May 2023 13: 03
    In general, put servos and fpv on this matter. And what is the difference in size that driving an airplane or UAV from glasses is the same view, only there will be no overloads. Even if it is hung with one-way bombs, it is more useful ... Yes, and you can ride as you like over the forest shelves. At least on i-16 with servos. And break down don't build it yeah
  12. 0
    11 May 2023 13: 46
    It's all a conspiracy. Well, there can't be so many idiots around.
    1. +3
      11 May 2023 16: 16
      It's all a conspiracy. Well, there can't be so many idiots around.

      Neither one nor the other. This is called multi-vector financial interest. Those. personal enrichment does not coincide with the interests of the state. And the laws of the country are not violated.
  13. +4
    11 May 2023 17: 39
    Installing remote control and guidance equipment in automatic mode on such aircraft at the current level of development in this area is not a big deal.

    Simply put, you can simply adapt existing similar systems with UAVs.

    Now this is very interesting!!! And for example (oh, those)) the Chinese are already in full swing remodeling obsolete, decommissioned aircraft into UAVs, like that!
    But we are not Chinese...


    [media=https://topwar.ru/188809-bespilotniki-voennogo-naznachenija-sozdannye-na-baze-snjatyh-s-vooruzhenija-samoletov.html]
  14. +4
    11 May 2023 21: 38
    Was on a similar base. Sokol airfield near Nizhny Tagil, summer 2000. MiGs 23, 27, dozens of MiGs 25. Around the gardens with toilets made of nose cones.
  15. +2
    12 May 2023 01: 37
    Creating a backup storage system for aircraft is not an easy task.
    Even the Americans had problems. For example, they destroyed all the F-14s, because they removed spare parts that went to Iran. And the MiG-23/27 from storage was impossible to return to service, not only because of the electronics, but because of the destruction of the wing turning unit. It is difficult to imagine that non-new aircraft in 30 years would have reached February 2022. The MiG-31 is rather an exception, due to the use of mainly steel in the structure. But the electronics and electrics need to be completely changed.
  16. +7
    12 May 2023 04: 17
    And what will happen to the object after 6 tons of air bombs hit it, even if it is a bridge across the Dnieper, there is no need to say.

    There is a suspicion that the Dnieper bridges are some kind of "sacred cow" for the Kremlin celestials. What prevents the cat once or twice with a dagger on one of the bridges, after setting an ultimatum and announcing the date and time, in order to avoid losses among civilians? If even a hole is made, it will already complicate the logistics and require time for repairs. Again, the psychological effect.
    But they don't want fundamentally do not want!
    1. +1
      12 May 2023 20: 39
      Quote: MBRBS
      And what will happen to the object after 6 tons of air bombs hit it, even if it is a bridge across the Dnieper, there is no need to say.

      There is a suspicion that the Dnieper bridges are some kind of "sacred cow" for the Kremlin celestials. What prevents the cat once or twice with a dagger on one of the bridges, after setting an ultimatum and announcing the date and time, in order to avoid losses among civilians? If even a hole is made, it will already complicate the logistics and require time for repairs. Again, the psychological effect.
      But they don't want fundamentally do not want!

      I met information that the bridges are not touched because they carry products from Ukrainian enterprises in which there are shares of Russian oligarchs, and maybe high-ranking officials.
      Some people don't want to lose their income.
      Everything according to the saying - for whom is war, and for whom is mother dear.
      1. -1
        18 May 2023 00: 17
        I can expand on this topic: bridges are needed by a couple of important oligarchs-relatives (one Ukrainian, one former Russian) sitting in Britain, so that without interference (and without alternatives in the sense of cheap logistics) to export Ukrainian grain to Odessa (to the port, then to ships) in framework scandalous grain deal!
        From what do I draw such a conclusion?

        But from this article: https://vz.ru/world/2023/5/5/1210594.html - you need to read (very carefully) the last third of the text there.

        The two characters with a vested interest in the grain deal are:

        1. The unspoken owner of the Odessa cargo port and grain terminals, a Ukrainian oligarch, Muscovite Alexander Zhukov by birth, real name Radkin (he "borrowed" the name Zhukov from his first wife Elena). https://whoiswhopersona.info/archives/14516 https://mirnov.ru/obshchestvo/persona/aleksandr-zhukov-otec-dashi-test-abramovicha.html
        It has an average of $ 15-20 from each trailer or wagon loaded onto ships in the port of Odessa. During the period of the grain deal until the end of October 2022, it will be more than 20 million dollars...

        2. His son-in-law, the famous Roman Abramovich, also takes care of his father-in-law's earnings in the grain deal. That is why he is so reverently involved in shadow negotiations and even gives expensive gifts to the "Azov" Nazis released from Mariupol. Maybe he is pushing again and again this grain deal that is useless for Russia in the Kremlin, promising again and again some kind of successful agreement on the NVO?

        What is not a version of the main reason for the preservation of bridges on the Dnieper?

        After all, if they are bombed, then it will become impossible to transport grain from the left-bank Ukraine to Odessa by rail. And it is very unprofitable by road to Odessa (it’s easier to take it by car somewhere in the region of Kiev, Uman and load it on the railway and then to Europe, without suffering from Odessa port loading).
        Then these two beneficiary peppers will lose up to half of the Ukrainian grain from the left-bank Ukraine. Those. half of the income from the Odessa port.
  17. +3
    12 May 2023 07: 27
    Empty talk. If the "generals" wanted to win and for this it would be necessary to destroy the bridges, then the bridges would be destroyed. Iskander or other rocket or some of the flying aircraft converted into kamikaze ... In general, if you wish, everything is possible. There is no current pancake desire.
  18. +2
    12 May 2023 08: 01
    In Russia, at all times, heroism was combined with betrayal in a ratio of approximately 50/50.
  19. +4
    12 May 2023 11: 29
    There is also a MiG-31 in storage. It is no longer realistic to restore the production of this aircraft that has outstripped its time, but to take it from storage, carry out fault detection, overhaul and modernization - and, voila, you will get the MiG-31BM / K. On the Internet, different numbers are walking, 80-100 pieces, even if only half remain after fault detection, it’s still 30-40 super-aircraft at the exit. Su-24 can be upgraded to Su-24M2, Su-25 to Su-25SM3. Probably the main problem is the engines. It's holding back in the first place...
  20. -3
    12 May 2023 11: 31
    why do we need them? We don't use carpet bombing as a matter of principle. So we don't need these planes either.
  21. -1
    12 May 2023 13: 32
    Folds of terrain in Ukraine?
    Oh well.
    The air defense system will not be seen. But there are MANPADS, there is a memory.
    Old planes will not solve new problems. "There" turntables in beams are laid down with MANPADS, and they go much lower with an envelope of the terrain than airplanes.
    Hypersonic missiles or Iskanders can decide. In general, everything that does not go astray (according to the assurances of our military).
  22. +1
    12 May 2023 17: 13
    Quote: MBRBS
    And what will happen to the object after 6 tons of air bombs hit it, even if it is a bridge across the Dnieper, there is no need to say.

    There is a suspicion that the Dnieper bridges are some kind of "sacred cow" for the Kremlin celestials. What prevents the cat once or twice with a dagger on one of the bridges, after setting an ultimatum and announcing the date and time, in order to avoid losses among civilians? If even a hole is made, it will already complicate the logistics and require time for repairs. Again, the psychological effect.
    But they don't want fundamentally do not want!

    Why stab bridges with a dagger when you can immediately load it into the headquarters of the Ministry of Defense. And end the war. But they don’t want to) They want to drag out for 20 years, I believe, in order to educate a new generation of military people in the country. The victory is not important to them now, they just need a long-term bloody mess.
  23. 0
    12 May 2023 18: 43
    Exactly, there are so many planes, with such planes it was possible to destroy enemy bridges
    At what it was possible to add the effects of a falling downed aircraft when falling, but the aircraft would fly to the target
  24. 0
    12 May 2023 19: 13
    Are there those who served on the Su-24 among the commentators?
  25. 0
    12 May 2023 19: 35
    Who is this author? Dreamer you called me...? wassat I agree with the negative assessment of the cut equipment, but I don’t believe that the Su-24s are easily converted into UAVs and all the bridges will be bombed tongue
  26. +1
    12 May 2023 19: 36
    The article raises an important topic. But, I think it is much easier to remotely control an aircraft flying at an altitude of 11000 m than at 250 m. The Su-24 would do an excellent job of delivering UMPC-equipped bombs to remote drop sites to a depth of 300 km from the LBS just at high altitude, bypassing the likely locations of enemy air defense. And for this it is not necessary to use aircraft from storage bases, but it is easier to remake flying equipment.
  27. -2
    12 May 2023 23: 11
    Under capitalism, everything is meaningless.
  28. -1
    13 May 2023 13: 26
    The other day I watched a T-55 tank on the net, on which it began its service 55 years ago, they use the tank as a cannon, it shoots far and not accurately.
  29. 0
    13 May 2023 18: 53
    What about mini submarines for destroying bridges? Unmanned Underwater Vehicles, micro Poseidons!? There is none of them !? And since childhood, I remember about * a submarine in the steppes of Ukraine *!
  30. -2
    14 May 2023 10: 10
    And where is the vaunted air defense and early warning systems? What does satellite intelligence do? In general, it is not clear that in the presence of military reconnaissance satellites, we do not know about the movement of enemy equipment. Mess....
  31. +3
    14 May 2023 22: 29
    1. Su 24 is an extremely difficult aircraft to fly.
    2. All listed aircraft were put into storage 30 years ago. I want to remind you that we have a completely different climate than in a country across the ocean, at the storage base cited here as an example. We do not have such places.
    3. Life was very hard in the 90s. People went to any theft, because the salary was not paid and they were scanty. Therefore, in many areas, everything is stolen. I personally arrested a gang that cut tank cars made of a special alloy stored in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. The whole gang ........ employees of the VOHR. So it was at the storage bases ...
    4. Since the 90s, much has been ruined and destroyed in the country. Yes. The hunchbacked Judas and the drunkard are to blame.
    But the real reason is that the USSR lost the Third World War (1947 - 1991), which is also called the Cold War. Although the citizens of Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Laos, Afghanistan are clearly not frozen. Because of the loss of this war, the USSR ceased to exist, and its main fragment - the ridge was occupied. Politically, economically, etc. Hence all the troubles.
    No matter what anyone says, but Comrade Putin slowly, cunningly and cleverly returned 6 out of 7 sovereignties to the country. Therefore, reading comments that GDP is fulfilling someone's plans is tired. Well honestly, turn on the brain already.

    About bridges and SVO. Here I am not ready to say yet, but I think that the longer the operation takes, the ....... more profitable for Russia. You just need to look globally. See what's happening in geyrop. There is reason to believe that it will soon fall apart. And then the Russian Federation will have one less powerful enemy.
    1. -1
      16 May 2023 23: 29
      About bridges and SVO. Here I am not ready to say yet, but I think that the longer the operation takes, the ....... more profitable for Russia. You just need to look globally. See what's happening in geyrop. There is reason to believe that it will soon fall apart.

      This is a very dangerous approach. So you can drag out the war for decades, exhausting your country, losing the best people on the front lines, your aviation (including civilian aircraft, which does not fly at all in the western half of the map). And the rest of the world, meanwhile, is moving forward, building something (especially China), inventing something, stealing something from the weak (especially the United States), bending someone, sowing confusion somewhere (Russia managed to do at least one of US allies to arrange a turmoil or a coup over the past 20 years? No? Why so? Weak?), launches new satellites with new equipment (both China and the USA) ...

      It seems that in our country at the top this approach is also very popular. It is very easy and pleasant to persuade oneself that the enemy is weak, divided and stupid.

      What then to do if it turns out that reality is not like that, but much more complicated?
      The correct answer is: continue to continue to convince everyone in the media that Europe and the United States are about to fall apart. Perhaps we will believe in this for another year. And then we think...
      1. +1
        3 December 2023 21: 54
        read my post. For those who don’t know how, once again: after 1991, the Russian Federation was occupied. And all this time until now, she was busy with herself and her problems.
  32. +3
    15 May 2023 11: 40
    When the author of the article reports that the Su-24 is capable of taking 25 * OFAB-250-270, this means that he does not understand what he is talking about. And, absolutely.
    The maximum load of the Su-24 is 2 (two) tons with a combat radius of 150-200 km (at an extremely low altitude), and it is not clear which bridges the author was going to destroy.
    It should be borne in mind that all these old Su-24s (1975 model) are real monsters, they were already like that at the end of the 80s, they were smoothly changed to Su-24M, which were then finalized to Su-24M2, and the plane became simply incomparable. But, and his time has passed, they changed it to the Su-34.
    The place of the Su-24 is on the pedestal, it deserved it.
  33. -1
    15 May 2023 12: 05
    Having we do not store, lost crying. Savages...
  34. 0
    15 May 2023 12: 06
    And where is the author going to take ice cubes for the ancient technique? /Sincerely perplexed/
  35. +1
    15 May 2023 12: 13
    Quote: Grencer81
    Are there those who served on the Su-24 among the commentators?

    And even if they were, what difference does that make? Suppose a person became a cadet at the age of 17. At 17+4=21 - graduated. 30 years have passed. Now he is 51 years old. Officers served up to 45. Colonels - up to 50. Now something has changed, it seems, they have added 5 years. But here after all not pieces of paper to shift! Here icey health is needed! This is not a civil retirement age to raise! You can, of course, find a certain number of grandfathers who are not yet completely decrepit. Putting them into operation is obviously more than a year (this is from the moment of receiving serviceable ancient equipment, which will not happen immediately). During this time, he will finally become decrepit and piloting them will become dangerous both for him and for society.
  36. +2
    15 May 2023 14: 22
    Another interesting thing. In the Soviet Union, citizens could afford an air taxi. And not even the management of these enterprises, but small bosses. In the regions of Russia, the average salary of heads of small enterprises does not allow such a whim. The USSR in the 1970s was ahead of the whole world in terms of the quantity and quality of Civil Aviation aircraft. Every second aircraft flying at that time in the sky of the planet was made in the USSR. The aviation factories of our country produced as much aviation equipment as all other aviation enterprises in the world produced in total. The USSR was a great aviation power. It turns out that capitalism was foisted on citizens, in the expectation that citizens would become richer, and in fact, a Soviet citizen received much more privileges for his salary than now.
  37. +1
    15 May 2023 14: 28
    1. Several thousand Soviet aircraft, together 20 thousand Soviet tanks and another 20 thousand self-propelled guns and MLRS, 20 thousand towed guns and howitzers and several tens of thousands of 82 and 120 mm mortars, as part of two million groups of ground forces, could put an end to the Armed Forces of the 2022 model no more than a month.
    2. The Russian army could do away with the Armed Forces of Ukraine, once and for all, in the summer of 2014 with minimal losses.
    3. If in Moscow they favored helping President Yanukovych at the end of 2013 and the Armed Forces of Ukraine then carried out an anti-terrorist operation in Western Ukraine, now Ukraine could beat a true friend of Russia, like Belarus.
    But all this is an irretrievable loss of opportunity due to unshared love for the West. It is necessary to end this love and not rely only on nuclear deterrence. Carry out a real mobilization of not only people, but also the industry and all available weapons and finish the NWO as quickly as possible. If you are late again in a year or two, you can then write about the Wehrmacht - you are late in everything.
    1. 0
      16 May 2023 23: 38
      By the way, after that Maidan, Yanukovych, already being taken to the Russian Federation, signed a letter on March 1, 2014 asking the leadership of the Russian Federation to send troops and restore constitutional order in Ukraine. And our diplomat Churkin shook this letter, showed it to the UN, demanding that Yanukovych be returned to the presidency. But then... all of a sudden
      this fact in our country, our media hid!

      And in the West, they caustically joked about this (feeling the weakness of Russia), naming the naive official Russian negative on the topic "Yanukovych did not write such a letter!" new term "post-truth".

      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BC%D0%BE_%D0%AF%D0%BD%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B0

      For cameras at the UN managed to film this letter on the podium and in the hands of Churkin, there was even a video of his speech dated March 3, 2014. https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2017/03/16/681452-ofitsialnogo-yanukovicha-vvode-voisk

      But Zakharova denies the letter, calls it a "statement": https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/2017/03/17/681651-zaharova-pisma - verbiage, something like the word "SVO" instead of the word "war" .
  38. +1
    17 May 2023 10: 19
    weapons and weapon systems should be disposed of only in one case - they cannot be restored and there is no possibility to use them for their intended purpose.
    the obscurantist statements of "creadefective managers" about "obsolescence (?!)" do not stand up to criticism even from a kindergartner. my personal opinion: those D'morons who dare to assert such a thing should be disposed of for bone meal.