Paraphrased: how officials “abandoned” the Bologna system

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Paraphrased: how officials “abandoned” the Bologna system
Source: nilov-oa.ru


According to European standards


At the end of May last year, officials from the Ministry of Education and Science (not to be confused with the "school" Ministry of Education) unanimously spoke about the inferiority of the Bologna system. We remind readers why this imported standard came to higher education in Russia. First of all, to synchronize educational programs between foreign educational institutions. Together with Russia, 49 countries joined the standard, or Bologna set of rules. By the way, the United States has never been in the system and does not seek to. Nevertheless, this does not prevent Americans from building a good, in general, higher education.



The countries that joined the "lapdog" had to create a unified system of credit units, which were to be taken into account in all universities. This is the so-called credit-module system, which allows a conditional student of Novosibirsk University to move for a couple of courses to study at the Sorbonne. Theoretically, it looks very nice, but practically unrealizable, primarily because of the chronic lack of money. International student mobility, which was never really implemented in Russia, was a regularly criticized component of the system. An illustrative example is the international supplement to the Russian diploma of higher education, which, in theory, was recognized in any country of the Bologna Treaty. But who has seen this European application? It is, but it is supposed to be for a lot of money or through a good acquaintance.

But the main irritant was not even flirting with European universities, but a two-tier system of higher education, which includes an incomprehensible creature - a bachelor. Who is it? There is a legend that European bosses invented a bachelor for uneducated migrants so that they would meet the minimum level of high-tech service personnel. The bachelor's level is very peculiar. On the one hand, this is a higher education level or undergraduate, on the other hand, a bachelor is a typical dropout. He cannot be engaged in science - candidate exams are not available, teaching at a higher school is impossible - even in the senior classes, schools do not recommend appointing bachelors as teachers without retraining. Also, the majority of managerial posts, even the initial level, are closed to the bachelor. No wonder the country's leading universities have allowed the "lap dog". But not everywhere. For example, Mekhmat, Faculty of Chemistry, faculties of fundamental physical and chemical engineering, psychology, space research, bioengineering and bioinformatics of Moscow State University remained on a five-year specialty. All other divisions, to one degree or another, are still on a two-stage education.

An anecdotal situation happened with the system of magistracy in universities. Not all educational institutions have the opportunity to complete the second stage - only a bachelor's degree is available. And if a student is talented and ready to gnaw at the granite of science for a couple more years? Then, please, to the regional center or even to the capital of another region. And this is without taking into account the fact that a large part of the master's programs are paid.


Minister of Education and Science of the Russian Federation Valery Falkov. Source: etu.ru

In connection with Russia's rejection of the Bologna process, hopes were associated primarily with the rejection of the notorious division into bachelor's and master's degrees. Since it has already been decided to return to the good old Soviet school, then it is necessary to restore the specialty for everyone and everywhere. But April 2023 came and Minister Falkov announced that everything was not bad anyway.

"Bologna" remains


«Unique domestic system of higher education”- these are the epithets that high school officials and Minister Falkov himself bestowed on the upcoming reform. In fact, it turned out that in Russia a two-stage structure is preserved, and the term of education itself is stretched in time - for one or two years. As mentioned above, a chimera has surprisingly formed in the country from the European and Soviet stages of education - bachelor's degree (4 years), specialist's degree (5 years) and master's degree (additional 2 years on top). By the way, there were also bachelors studying for five years. How is this possible? To do this, students were simply offered two specialties at once in a diploma, which automatically extended the studentship for 12 months. This is widespread in pedagogical universities, for example. Therefore, if you have a university graduate in front of you, who has spent five years at the institute, this is not necessarily a specialist - it is quite possible, a “double-bachelor”.

Almost a year of consultations and meetings in the relevant department were not in vain. Now the Ministry of Education and Science has simply reformulated the Bologna concept in two stages - basic and specialized. It turned out the same, only a side view. At the basic level, students study for 4-6 years, depending on the needs of the market and the flexibility of the university, and the second specialized training is provided from one to two years. That is, now it is theoretically possible to study at a non-medical university for eight years at once. It is interesting to find out in which specialties suddenly had to so dramatically increase the time for obtaining a diploma. Students can now go up to 26-27 years old inclusive. In Soviet times, some at that age became candidates of science. Additional years of study will inevitably require an increase in budget funding, staff expansion and a bunch of rather big financial problems. Paid education will become less accessible - parents and students themselves will have to look for hundreds of thousands of rubles for a couple of years of study. Perhaps the only advantage of Falkov's innovation can be considered a more rigorous approach to choosing a master's degree. Previously, a bachelor's degree in chemistry could legally enroll in a master's degree in management or marketing. What happened in the end is hard to say. Now in a number of specialties this has been excluded - now the second stage is only in related disciplines. The basic level of education allows you to enter graduate school, however, after five years of study. That is, as there was a four-year course of the university with an incomplete education, it remained. This is another repetition of the "lapdog".

As some commentators rightly point out, for example, Pavel Kudyukin, co-chairman of the University Solidarity trade union, the ministry simply rephrased what was stated in the law on education back in 2012. Only now there is more uncertainty. Universities are said to be forced to become more flexible. Beneath this interesting formulation lies a complete confusion. Why then the Ministry of Education and Science, if now the universities themselves will respond to the challenges of the market and time? They themselves will interact with employers, choose programs and specialties. For example, the term of training at a specialized level in the Irkutsk region will be chosen by the rector of the university with local employers in one year. And then a university graduate leaves the region for Moscow, where they agreed on two years of study in similar specialties. Such a “drop-out” will not be hired? Or will they take it without waiting for the Muscovites to walk as students for another year? In general, if the task of the ministry was to make life as difficult as possible for all players in higher education, then it turned out perfectly.

If we discard the subtleties of rephrasing the Bologna process in a new way, an interesting detail becomes obvious. With the start of the special operation, government departments as one rushed to cut ties with the hated pro-Western past and present. Say, we will build our unique future on a rich historical heritage. First of all, in Soviet. A particular example of the Ministry of Education and Science showed at what actual level this is being implemented. The wording is changed to depict the activity. It remains to be hoped that the rest of the structures will not follow suit and really reconsider their principles. Otherwise, we will not be able to build a new Russia.
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  1. +13
    10 May 2023 04: 22
    I just don't understand why we need a multilevel education system. Soviet specialists were in demand almost everywhere, unless, of course, they really studied, and did not serve a number in universities. What prevents a return to the Soviet system? The only thing that comes to mind is money. For professors.
    1. +20
      10 May 2023 04: 26
      yes, the authorities, from one word "Soviet", begin to twist like a man possessed!
    2. Egg
      +4
      10 May 2023 06: 02
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      I just don't understand why we need a multilevel education system.

      You spelled it right at the end
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      This is money. For professors.

      And only money, the more steps and years of study, the more money, because this does not affect the quality and volume of students' knowledge in any way, judging by those who are now coming to work.
      1. -1
        10 May 2023 06: 36
        Quote: Telur
        And only money, the more steps and years of study, the more money,

        You are wrong - 10 people will study for 4 years or 6 people for 6 years - the amount will not change. Number of students
        fixed and permanent - 4 or 6 years - the same amount of money will be.
        Now if increase the number of accepted students, then yes, the dough will be more ....
      2. +3
        12 May 2023 07: 45
        Well, if we talk about designers and technologists, then small and medium-sized enterprises have big problems with this. The level of training of young specialists leaves much to be desired, "thank you" to the Internet. Instead of studying disciplines and doing papers on their own, many students simply download papers from the network. The old generation, with a book education, is leaving. There is no transfer of experience and knowledge to the new generation, mentorship is lost. As one of the old specialists figuratively put it: "In two generations they will be sitting on trees" with such an attitude towards education and industry. My acquaintances, fairly large entrepreneurs, have big problems finding technologists and designers. So, pre-reformed both in industry and education. After all, the efficiency of the economy is determined not by individual winners of various foreign competitions, but by a large number of ordinary performers in production. But this is the trouble with the state. You don't have to be surprised. After all, Gref said in every hearing that the state does not need educated people, they are difficult to manage, they ask unnecessary questions.
    3. +6
      10 May 2023 08: 02
      The Yeltsinists tried to merge into that Western world. That's the whole reason. They still occupy leading positions in the world, the Ministry of Education, etc.
      1. -1
        10 May 2023 19: 59
        Quote from: dmi.pris1
        The Yeltsinists tried to merge into that Western world. That's the whole reason. They still occupy leading positions in the world, the Ministry of Education, etc.

        They have not gone anywhere, they are firmly entrenched and think further "faithfully" to serve the Russian oligarchs who serve the globalists and want to join them, contrary to the interests of our country
    4. +14
      10 May 2023 08: 14
      What prevents a return to the Soviet system?

      The Soviet system is socialism, now capitalism. And there's nothing to stop laughing
      1. -1
        10 May 2023 20: 10
        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        ..... The Soviet system is socialism, now capitalism. And there's nothing to stop laughing

        hi Nothing interferes, as they asked, but who. These same officials from the Ministry of Education ..... for example, in 2013 the GDP gave instructions about a new school history textbook. So they slapped such a textbook that it’s the only way
        it will turn out to teach children that they will become slaves under globalism, where the Russian Federation is conceived as a raw material appendage for the West
    5. +9
      10 May 2023 08: 23
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      I just don't understand why we need a multilevel education system. Soviet specialists were in demand almost everywhere, unless, of course, they really studied, and did not serve a number in universities. What prevents a return to the Soviet system? The only thing that comes to mind is money. For professors.

      There is rather no understanding of the very essence of the Bologna system ... as the author correctly pointed out at first - a bachelor is a technical specialist, he is needed to work with “handles”, having received the basic necessary skills of higher education, conditionally this is a modern version of schools ... the knowledge they received is enough to perform the functions of a master at plant, operator at a power plant, foreman at a construction site. Everything, more is not required of him, at the same time it makes such education cheaper (in most countries of the world, higher education is paid), and therefore more accessible ... for more complex work there is a master's program - for design, science, teaching, workshop management, etc. ... just as always, we decided to do not understand what - neither the perfection of the old system, nor the complete acceptance of the new one happened ...
      1. +4
        10 May 2023 21: 31
        The fact is that once in good technical schools they were able to prepare normal graduates for the national economy faster, cheaper and better than now the notorious bachelors. A similar situation was in ancient times with cadets in secondary military schools, graduating junior officers for the army.
    6. +3
      10 May 2023 08: 40
      Everything gets in the way, really. More precisely, for the Soviet (although not the best, but much better than today's)) education system, the Soviet Union is needed. ICHSH, preferably - the simulacrum that is actively ..... in general, they practically pray wink many. And by no means a construct that really had to be. The fate of the real we know, alas, too well. Without this small circumstance, all the dreams about the return of the "Soviet school" will remain dreams. Even if you return it, you will very quickly get some analogue of the existing system.
    7. +3
      10 May 2023 14: 05
      I just don't understand why we need a multilevel education system. Soviet specialists were in demand almost everywhere, unless, of course, they really studied, and did not serve a number in universities. What prevents a return to the Soviet system? The only thing that comes to mind is money. For professors.

      We also had a multi-level education system. And Soviet specialists were in demand mainly in Africa. Units crawled to the West.
      The Bologna system is an attempt to bring our education closer to that of the West.
      So far unsuccessful.
      We are in 52nd place out of 139 in the ranking of countries by education, and Moscow State University is in 163rd place among universities.
    8. +2
      10 May 2023 21: 26
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      I just don't understand why we need a multilevel education system. Soviet specialists were in demand almost everywhere, unless, of course, they really studied, and did not serve a number in universities. What prevents a return to the Soviet system? The only thing that comes to mind This is money. For professors.
      Absolutely not...
    9. +1
      11 May 2023 19: 04
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      What prevents a return to the Soviet system?

      Moreover, she did not leave without a trace! Specialty - this is the Soviet system. 5 years of study - and a full-fledged specialized specialist (well, if you didn’t hang around pears from apple trees, of course, during training).
  2. +8
    10 May 2023 04: 26
    In the USSR, there was also the formation of a two-stage school \ technical school-institute and it is not clear why they broke it. Now they are again creating difficulties so that later they nod at the "lap dog" - oh how good it was with her ..
    1. +15
      10 May 2023 04: 50
      Quote: Guran33 Sergey
      school \ technical school-institute and it is not clear why it was broken

      He wasn't broken. He was killed...
      1. +17
        10 May 2023 06: 12
        In 1999, we had five motor transport technical schools in our country (I studied in one of them). In 2000 they held an attestation and closed two or three. A wide range of mechanic technicians were produced for the repair and then of buses, trucks and cars (driver's license and locksmith's crusts from 2 to 4 categories). In the second year, from 30 to 50% of students (theoretical mechanics, electrical engineering) dropped out. In the 3rd year of the sopromat (in a regular technical school!). It was difficult to get there. And wait there is a COLLEGE with a bunch of not up to welders, not up to mechanics, not up to technicians. And I haven't seen training trucks for a long time. That's all bologna.
        1. +6
          10 May 2023 08: 23
          Quote from O.R.E.
          In 2000 they held an attestation and closed two or three.

          And why millions of competent specialists? They are needed for thousands of factories and plants. Why hundreds of thousands of scientists? For hundreds of research institutes and design bureaus. One cannot exist without the other...
          1. +6
            10 May 2023 13: 06
            And why millions of competent specialists? They are needed for thousands of factories and plants. Why hundreds of thousands of scientists? For hundreds of research institutes and design bureaus

            If you listen to various advisers to the president, such as Fursenko, as well as a certain Gref, then competent specialists are not needed by definition, they advised preparing competent consumers ... And given that thousands of factories and plants were closed, as well as hundreds of research institutes and design bureaus were closed, then competent specialists and scientists are not needed from the word at all ...
            So we have such education for consumers ....
      2. +4
        10 May 2023 06: 36
        I will not recover much, in 1996 I had an attestation, I was in my first year. 30 years have passed, you can't remember everything.
  3. +15
    10 May 2023 04: 27
    The demolition of the Soviet system (one of the best and most efficient in the world) of both school and higher education is a long-term program to turn Russia from "Upper Volta with nuclear missiles" into just "Upper Volta". Silicon Valley, IBM and a number of other leading world firms are full of graduates of Soviet universities. But the decline in the intellectual level of today's graduates continues. And the fault in this is our own leaders and officials "from education."
    1. +9
      10 May 2023 07: 11
      Quote: Amateur
      Silicon Valley, IBM and a number of other leading global firms are full of graduates Soviet universities

      I humbly remind - graduates The SOVIET challenge ended at most in 1995 - received before the collapse of the USSR.
      And they are now under 55 years old ..
      Then there were only graduates of Russian universities.
      Z.Y.
      Quote: Amateur
      IBM and a number of other leading global firms
      IBM was bought a long time ago at the root of the Chinese Lenovo.
      1. +3
        10 May 2023 15: 58
        Quote: your1970
        IBM was bought a long time ago at the root of the Chinese Lenovo.
        A couple of the most marginal divisions of IBM were once bought by Lenovo - that's right.
    2. +5
      10 May 2023 08: 16
      Quote: Amateur
      But the decline in the intellectual level of today's graduates continues. And the fault in this is our own leaders and officials "from education."
      Fursenko once said that we need a "human consumer". And the USSR needed a "man-creator". Therefore, this is not a fault, but quite an indication from above, and such a power was chosen by themselves. "We don't need smart ones. We need faithful ones" (c) hi
      1. 0
        10 May 2023 08: 44
        And the USSR needed a "man-creator"

        At some point, yes. And then everything became sad with this .... And then the Union itself went under Chopin ....
  4. +9
    10 May 2023 05: 17
    Otherwise, we will not be able to build a new Russia.
    So for 32 years everything has been under construction? What have they even built?
    1. +1
      10 May 2023 08: 44
      Remind me of a vulgar anecdote about general secretaries?)))
    2. +3
      10 May 2023 08: 56
      Perfectly built a vertical of power. Absolutely vertical.
      1. 0
        10 May 2023 15: 41
        In the USSR, there was a much more powerful party-state vertical, years before 1989.
        1. +1
          10 May 2023 16: 03
          There was visibility of this vertical. As, however, and now. And that vertical lived not quite the way it was supposed and voiced. Just like now....
          1. 0
            10 May 2023 21: 41
            Quote: frog
            There was visibility of this vertical. As, however, and now. And that vertical lived not quite the way it was supposed and voiced. Just like now....
            Not quite so, there are very significant, qualitative differences.
            1. -2
              10 May 2023 21: 57
              Undoubtedly. About the same Yakovlev, the office posted materials about his ..... ambiguity at least a couple of times. The nasyalnika was silent .... What all these republican hand-leaders were doing on the ground is a separate song .... About the titanic theft on the same railway, the Central Committee was talking. Etc. And so, yes, there were significant differences ....
  5. +5
    10 May 2023 05: 37
    Where can you learn to be a songwriter?
    What is the job of a mechanical engineer?
    Do universities show the approximate path of a graduate student to retirement? "collectivefalk" sees the prospects of a person and the entire industry, enterprise?
    Apparently, the question is in philosophical understanding where we are going, who is leading.
    And who will be cursed in 2050...
  6. +8
    10 May 2023 05: 57
    There is the head of the government Mishustin - all the demand is from him .. and Putin sits above him .. he seems to like everything too ... although sometimes it seems to these two characters, on whom the development of Russia depends, that they don’t give a damn about anything ...
  7. +5
    10 May 2023 06: 04
    The Soviet education system was of high quality and fully justified itself. Everything is going to the way we have adopted in recent decades, that in the end, having suffered again to return to the Soviet education system. And this requires political will and a minister who really cares about Russian education, and not for perpetuating himself in history with stupid innovations.
    1. +1
      10 May 2023 07: 29
      Quote: rotmistr60
      The Soviet education system was of high quality and fully justified itself.

      Debatable. Otherwise, a graduate who comes to production would not be told - "Now forget everything you were taught there and listen here!" ....
      And there was also a bunch of non-core subjects, for example, the history of the cooperative movement in the Engelsky cooperative.

      And yet - by sunset (from 1985), the exams became frankly purchased. Everyone knew which cloakroom attendant took for which teacher ...
      And anecdotal "this is not a ram, it's a gift. A ram studies at the institute!" and "Buy yourself a tram and ride like everyone else" - the people came up with a reason.
      1. +4
        10 May 2023 08: 21
        And there was also a bunch of non-core subjects, for example, the history of the cooperative movement in the Engelsky cooperative.
        Yes, how can I tell you about non-core. Here at MIPT there was never a history of science, I had to master it myself when I started teaching. At Moscow State University - there was once such a discipline. If you want to learn something deeply, then the history of the subject never gets in the way. Another thing is that the students of the Engel cooperative technical school did not need this.
        1. +1
          10 May 2023 09: 27
          Quote: Aviator_
          Another thing is that the students of the Engel cooperative college (!!!) this was not necessary.
          belay so that institute consumer cooperation ... And they taught this story the entire first year with the exam.
          And since the institute was a trading one, bribes were brought there in meat or money.
          In 1987, admission cost 3 rubles - and it was not a great secret, my parents were told this right away ...
          And I rested and went to Moscow to enter the MIIVT and Gubkin
      2. +4
        10 May 2023 15: 43
        "And there was also a bunch of non-core subjects, for example, the history of the cooperative movement in the Engel cooperative." Well, as a small course for general development, this subject is quite normal.
      3. 0
        12 May 2023 20: 43
        his 1970 (Sergey). May 10, 2023 07:29 am. NEWYY - "... Debatable. Otherwise, a graduate who comes to production would not be told - "Now forget everything you were taught there and listen here!".."

        MINE. Strange. The phrase "heard". but they didn't listen. No.
        I will try with the "help" of Goethe's grandfather to help you not only "hear". but understand i.e. "listen2 what MEANING. hi
        So - "Dry, my friend, theory is everywhere, But the tree of life is lush green." Johann Wolfgang Goethe "Faust". Mephistopheles utters this phrase in Goethe's Faust...
        School - classical theory
        Technical school - university - more advanced having some "feedback" connection (+\-) with pilot production. BUT ALSO A THEORY.There were such people in the USSR.
        And production is PRACTICE there.
        Here is THERE and "your" phrase.
        It seems that theoretically they should know. although with the advent of GORBI (March 11, 1985, Mikhail Gorbachev (who received the nickname Gorbi in the West) took the most important post in the leadership of the USSR.) From him it started "... to broaden, to deepen ... yes do yes..." .. in full .... Zh ... belay
    2. +1
      10 May 2023 08: 08
      I already wrote above that Yeltsinists have settled in the ministries. It’s not just the minister, they simply won’t let him work. Both from above and from below. This is a question of the SYSTEM. - cleaning inside the ministries
      1. +2
        10 May 2023 13: 13
        fallacies of the way of development of education and ways to correct the situation

        And not only the ways of developing education, but the ways of correcting the SYSTEM of the state itself ...
      2. -2
        10 May 2023 20: 18
        Quote from: dmi.pris1
        ...... Political will is needed - recognition of the fallacy of the path of development of education and ways to correct the situation. And yes, purge inside the ministries

        Unfortunately this does not happen. recourse there are, though timid hints sometimes ... And how not to remember Lem's "splattering"?
  8. +11
    10 May 2023 06: 16
    First of all, the rejection of Western educational standards should occur in secondary and general education. And then in the tower. Otherwise, nothing will change. After all, the current generation, on average, is really dumber than ours. I work as a teacher in a secondary school, though the first year, but I know what I'm talking about. Prior to that, he worked for 12 years in a special school. Now, having the opportunity to compare, I see the abyss into which education continues to fall. There is no time to teach children. You need to make reports. Otherwise, you don't work. You need to participate in ALL questionable online activities coming down from above. Otherwise, the director will be punished, and he will cut off your already meager salary. This was not the case in the special school. And the quality of education was much higher. Even with a special contingent. Reporting is killing the country.
    1. +5
      10 May 2023 09: 00
      Although it sounds trite, but bow to you for your work, for which so much patience and nerves are needed today. hi
    2. 0
      10 May 2023 13: 27
      First of all, the rejection of Western educational standards should occur in secondary and general education. And then in the tower. Otherwise, nothing will change. After all, the current generation, on average, is really dumber than ours. I work as a teacher in a secondary school, though the first year, but I know what I'm talking about. Prior to that, he worked for 12 years in a special school. Now, having the opportunity to compare, I see the abyss into which education continues to fall. There is no time to teach children. You need to make reports. Otherwise, you don't work. You need to participate in ALL questionable online activities coming down from above. Otherwise, the director will be punished, and he will cut off your already meager salary. This was not the case in the special school. And the quality of education was much higher. Even with a special contingent. Reporting is killing the country.

      Do you think there were fewer reports in the Soviet system? Or ONLINE events? laughing
      How many times have you taken your schoolchildren to subbotniks? What about the May Day (and other) demonstrations? And in the fields in September every year you get beets for a combine instead of studying?
      1. +4
        10 May 2023 15: 09
        Do you think there were fewer reports in the Soviet system?

        On the teacher? Naturally less. Head teachers or methodologists, to whom the head teachers partially delegated this work, were engaged in reporting for the city department.
        1. +1
          10 May 2023 15: 46
          What about the head teacher, not a teacher? The head teachers taught their subjects the same way. So are school principals. There were no separate full-time methodologists in the schools.
          1. +5
            10 May 2023 16: 09
            What about the head teacher, not a teacher?

            predictable question. Well, tell us about the pedagogical load of Soviet head teachers and directors, 0,5? And for what purposes did they leave these 0,5.
            There were no separate full-time methodologists in the schools.

            We are talking about the staff unit "organizer of extracurricular activities with children." They were also responsible for methodological work. Therefore, they were also called Methodists among themselves. And all sorts of Maydays, subbotniks, etc., which Arzt recalls, were also on them.
    3. +1
      10 May 2023 21: 20
      Reporting always kills any business. Lots of examples. It's a pity.
  9. +4
    10 May 2023 06: 21
    At first, officials / politicians, despite the protests of smart people, said that the Bologna system is cool !!! Now these same officials/politicians are saying that this is bad! What does they say with such an air, as if she, like a mold, started up herself, and it was not they who forcibly instilled her in Russia.
  10. +3
    10 May 2023 06: 21
    Again, it's all about "effective managers". Only they can fucking cut the budget without making a sensible cut.
    1. 0
      12 May 2023 20: 55
      tatarin1972. May 10, 2023 06:21 am. NEWTh - "... Again, it's all about" effective managers ". Only they can cut the budget without doing a damn thing ..."

      VERY Ehvektive!. drinks wassat bully
      Because "cut" according to the principle -
      1- first one way _ Bologna system.
      2 - tnow to another not quite to Bologna
      3- THIS OPTION IS POSSIBLE - FORCE TO RETURN TO THE CLASSIC good - on the basis of which the Soviet EDUCATION was built.
      and without strict CONTROL can be endless... bully
  11. +3
    10 May 2023 06: 22
    For me, a specialist is not the one who graduated from any educational institution, but the one who really plowed in his specialty for at least three years, demonstrating his knowledge, skills and efficiency in practice.
    Three years is necessary from my own experience, I will say that it is necessary to turn a former student into a specialist by loading him with business ... in 5 years he will already show a class ... and then it all depends on the person himself whether he is ready to develop further in his step or remains at the same level knowledge.
    1. Eug
      +3
      10 May 2023 06: 58
      Back in 1987 (KhAI) we were told that you would become a specialist when you went through two cycles - "concept - development - production-operation - analysis of what was planned and what happened and why what was planned did not work out." Now everything is much faster, but somehow very superficial and ostentatious.
    2. +2
      10 May 2023 07: 33
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      For me, a specialist is not the one who graduated from any educational institution, but the one who really plowed in his specialty for at least three years, showing in practice his knowledge, skills and efficiency.
      From my own experience, it takes three years to make a former student a specialist by loading him with business ... in 5 years he will already show a class

      They will stomp on you now ... Well, you are "slandering Soviet education - the best education in the world !!!!!" ...
      And you completely merge with the master "Now forget everything you were taught and listen here!!"
      1. +2
        10 May 2023 08: 52
        Will not)). At least for this. But a specialist turns out, generally speaking, after ten years of work. Of course, in the specialty, of course, with the presence (at first - so for sure)) of a mentor. Really, the Mentor, and not the uncle, who was forced into this sack for money. In general, we need the same two cycles that the KhAI graduate spoke about)). At the same time, it is extremely useful if the educated person himself wanted something other than material reward. And, of course, the work must be carried out because the product is needed, in accordance with the TOR (TOR, of course, it is also written on the bar in the ram)), and not because the factory-kitchen prepares the signature dish "priests" .. ..
        Hence the sad conclusion - even in the Union with this case it was so-so, and now ....
  12. +5
    10 May 2023 06: 24
    Officials from education will defend to the end the "lap dog" hated by the vast majority. This is their money. And, the money is not small. We do not forget who furiously planted this system, breaking the future of the country. They do not care about the "future" of our children and grandchildren. And, they will attach their own, be calm.
  13. +2
    10 May 2023 06: 40
    The president says something to the people, instructs the ministries and departments, the people are satisfied and happy, the officials are playing for time and in the end they leave everything as it was, but under different wording and no one is responsible and punished, so of course what should they be afraid of and why do something at all do, if you can not do it, but create a view and they are not fired at least. As a result, the people blame the president, and he is partly right. Boyars may be bad prada, but at least someone could be dismissed for appearances for non-fulfillment of instructions or inconsistency.
  14. +6
    10 May 2023 06: 45
    In 1990, I had a detailed conversation with a French teacher at a Soviet university, who had been on probation for two years (1989-1990) in France. She said that the French live better, because there is a more rational economy, but in the organization of education we are far superior to them. We, in principle, except for trifles, have nothing to learn there.
    She also said that the average Soviet Russian is superior to the average Frenchman in erudition, outlook, breadth of interests, and moral qualities to such an extent that the very comparison seems absurd and ridiculous to her. The difference is huge in favor of our man. And this is primarily due to Soviet education. Her words: "There I realized what wonderful, educated, cultured people we have."
    According to her, with a normal organization of the economy, the USSR with such personnel could make a huge leap forward (including in living standards) and become a model for the whole world.
    In 1995, I had a similar conversation with an English teacher who was on probation in the United States. She drew the same conclusions.
    In general, this is precisely why Soviet education, which has absorbed the best of European academic traditions, is being destroyed.
    1. +7
      10 May 2023 08: 27
      She said that the French live better, because there is a more rational economy,

      Did the French teacher understand economics? good good good
      Did she go to factories, compare production cycles at enterprises, look at sales plans? studied financial planning? cash flow, lending, commissioning of new facilities, depreciation of the main fund?
      According to her, with a normal organization of the economy, the USSR with such personnel could make a huge leap forward (including in living standards) and become a model for the whole world.
      .
      Yeah, otherwise the USSR was not a model for the entire developing world, a country that found the material strength and means to restore the entire, ALL, European part of the country after the Second World War, and what did France restore there after World War 2? The Soviet economy, which was ruined by such "specialists in rational economics."
      The problem is that a French or American language teacher does not go where he does not understand anything. And with us, since Perestroika, every gopher is an agronomist.
      1. +1
        10 May 2023 08: 37
        Less aggression and rudeness, citizen. If you have experience comparing different educational systems, write about it. The point is, first of all, that the Soviet education system was better than foreign ones from the point of view of people who could compare them from personal experience. If you are not able to understand this, to see the main and the secondary in my text, I cannot help you.
        Sapienti sat.
        1. +4
          10 May 2023 15: 00
          Less aggression and rudeness, citizen.

          Dear citizen, I really like this treatment.
          The point is, first of all, that the Soviet education system was better than foreign ones from the point of view of people who could compare them from personal experience.

          Have I written somewhere that the Soviet education system is bad?
          I wrote what I wrote, nothing more.
          I have something to compare, believe me, including the "rationality of the economy", but this is not about that now.
          Everything is very simple: the Soviet education system worked only in the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST republics
          In another economic system, it does not work, and by definition it does not need it.
          As the toad does not interbreed. hi hi hi
      2. +2
        10 May 2023 08: 55
        And with us, since Perestroika, every gopher is an agronomist.

        And before this putrefactive process, who were the gophers? Animal engineers? I can quite remind myself of a couple of examples, but you already know them, and even more))) Perestroika didn’t come from a physical vacuum and didn’t fall from Jupiter ....
    2. +2
      10 May 2023 09: 02
      I just wanted to write to you, they won’t believe you, but I see they don’t believe you anymore. hi
    3. +1
      10 May 2023 17: 17
      In 1990, I had a detailed conversation with a French teacher at a Soviet university, who had been on probation for two years (1989-1990) in France. She said that the French live better, because there is a more rational economy, but in the organization of education we are far superior to them. We, in principle, except for trifles, have nothing to learn there.

      In what way is it better, our organization? The fact that in MSLU them. M. Torez (like our basic linguistic university, which your teacher most likely graduated from), even there is no normal campus? And the fact that the bases are scattered over 3 districts of Moscow, so students spend 3 hours a day on the road?

      Or the fact that translators in the 3rd generation will teach you the language here, who occupied the offices by inheritance, according to the notes of their grandparents, and at the University of Michigan, Russian poetry is some Brodsky, who passed the world competition 1:100 for the position. laughing
  15. +3
    10 May 2023 06: 46
    Personally, when I entered the Leningrad Polytechnic University, I had it after graduating from St. Petersburg State Technical University. 5 years of study, half a year diploma. To work first as an electrician, and then how you show yourself. As the teachers told us, we gave you a base, you can work anywhere. Your task is to apply this knowledge. There were no Internet and computers in global use then. And, there were literature and experience passed down from mentors. In production.
  16. Eug
    +2
    10 May 2023 06: 47
    If you want to kill the country, deprive the younger generation of a normal education...everything else will work itself out.
    1. +3
      10 May 2023 08: 49
      Well, yes, only the Bologna system is the tip of the iceberg, the problem begins in an ordinary school, where children are taught to guess the correct answer by typing (hello to the exam and digitalizers)
      1. +5
        10 May 2023 15: 27
        Look at the assignments for the exam in history or social studies this year. Where did you see the poke method there?
  17. +2
    10 May 2023 07: 24
    Quote: Amateur
    And the fault in this is our own leaders and officials "from education."

    The less educated the population, the smarter the government seems to them. Yes, but no government will make a breakthrough with such a population.
    1. +2
      10 May 2023 09: 46
      Quote: Alex66
      Quote: Amateur
      And the fault in this is our own leaders and officials "from education."

      The less educated the population, the smarter the government seems to them. Yes, but no government will make a breakthrough with such a population.

      The words "Oh, fuck it!!" most accurately characterize your post. A bunch of countries where governments, having a low-educated population, made breakthroughs - starting with the USSR and ending with post-war Japan and China ...
      1. +2
        10 May 2023 15: 52
        In Japan, already at the beginning of the 20th century, the level of education was quite high. By the early 20th century, the entire population was literate, with six-grade elementary education compulsory since 1908.
      2. +4
        10 May 2023 16: 02
        Quote: your1970
        A bunch of countries where governments, having a low-educated population, made breakthroughs - starting with the USSR and ending with post-war Japan and China ...
        But for a breakthrough, the USSR imported specialists from the states (fortunately there was a great depression), and China from the USSR, and then from the states and Europe.
        1. 0
          11 May 2023 05: 54
          Quote: bk0010
          Quote: your1970
          A bunch of countries where governments, having a low-educated population, made breakthroughs - starting with the USSR and ending with post-war Japan and China ...
          But for a breakthrough, the USSR imported specialists from the states (fortunately there was a great depression), and China from the USSR, and then from the states and Europe.

          Yes. And not only from the States, from Germany too.
          However, the opponent argued
          Quote: Alex66
          The less educated the population, the smarter the government seems to them. Yes, only a jerk with such a population, no government will commit.

          Nevertheless, it was with such a population that jerks were made
  18. +4
    10 May 2023 07: 58
    At the top they sit solid according to Dostoevsky
    1. +3
      10 May 2023 08: 46
      Unfortunately, this is not entirely true, it seems to me that another definition is more suitable, because idiots are only from the poverty of mental abilities
  19. +5
    10 May 2023 09: 04
    As I understand it, with the rejection of the Bologna system, we did about the same as with the notorious "import substitution"?
    1. +6
      10 May 2023 10: 03
      Naturally. Just as no one was going to replace imports, no one was going to introduce the "lap dog" as a system, much less abandon it. And the problem is by no means money, they will squander money in the same way under a different system. People are still the same as the rules of the game wink
  20. -1
    10 May 2023 09: 31
    The Bologna system allows a bachelor from Pyatigorsk to complete a master's degree in Moscow. And a bachelor from St. Petersburg - a master's degree in Utrecht or Milan.
    For the initial training "from scratch" in the above places, the vast majority of the so-called class simply does not have enough money. This is quite a social elevator, which the ignoramuses are unable to notice.
    1. +4
      10 May 2023 16: 05
      Quote: Engineer
      The Bologna system allows a bachelor from Pyatigorsk to complete a master's degree in Moscow. And a bachelor from St. Petersburg - a master's degree in Utrecht or Milan.
      They say that "the Bologna system allows a bachelor from Pyatigorsk to complete a master's degree in Moscow", but in reality there are "not enough places" for their own (who have already studied at this university) students.
      1. -2
        10 May 2023 17: 57
        I named cases about which I personally know. There are not enough public places. As an everywhere. it's much easier at the paid branch
  21. +3
    10 May 2023 11: 07
    than swearing on the topic of the article - you better look at the faces of those who decided / determined how to teach OUR children ...
    The Soviet system had many shortcomings, but the main one of which was ourselves - the bulk of those entering the university - believed that having received a higher education - they did not need to do anything until retirement (i.e. rent): these views came from " kitchen reasoning" in every apartment ... but in fact it was a reflection of the thought of "cook's children" in reality.
    But, the introduced Bologna system fixed this at the legislative level - why should "Them (ie our children)" need comprehensive knowledge? - it is enough that we give a diploma and say that they have received higher education!
    Understand, they (over the hill) live there according to a different "Charter", which we cannot apply, or if we start to apply, then we get "feudalism" in the full sense of the word ...
    In fact, everything you wrote above reflects certain features of today's feudalism.
    so that - look at the "persons" who carry out such "reforms" - then it will be clear in whose interests this is being done!
  22. +1
    10 May 2023 11: 11
    and where will a monument be erected to fursenks?
  23. +3
    10 May 2023 12: 04
    Alas, this only confirms the thesis of negative selection.
    They ordered to abandon the Bologna system - they reported it - they refused.

    In real life, they simply changed the names, and left the formation as a land for feeding the boyars, relatives of financiers and officials.

    Uneducated people can be vtyuhivat everything.
    A year ago, highly qualified specialists were the first to rush from Russia. Even before mobilization.
    Game developers, programmers, systems engineers, financiers and more...
    1. -2
      10 May 2023 13: 02
      Game developers, programmers, systems engineers, financiers, etc.

      except for the programmers - the rest might not have returned ... in my opinion ...
      1. +2
        10 May 2023 13: 49
        In vain you are so talking about igrodelov, this is in one of the categories the same as a programmer. I somehow decided at my leisure, as a hobbyist, to make something simple for myself in terms of game making and oooooo hi
    2. +1
      10 May 2023 18: 31
      highly qualified specialists.
      I read the forums of Larsovites - baristas, nutritionists, barbers, personal growth coaches prevailed laughing .
  24. +2
    10 May 2023 12: 24
    "Bologna" remains
    Remains. As in that joke: "Sha! No one goes anywhere" (c).
  25. +1
    10 May 2023 14: 06
    Quote: billybones
    According to her, with a normal organization of the economy, the USSR with such personnel could make a huge leap forward (including in living standards) and become a model for the whole world.
    In 1995, I had a similar conversation with an English teacher who was on probation in the United States. She drew the same conclusions.
    In general, this is precisely why Soviet education, which has absorbed the best of European academic traditions, is being destroyed.


    What does "normal organization" mean?
    Is this a type of market reform? We tried... carried out privatization, so what?
    Your teachers were talking nonsense. They had no idea that the economy is not a spherical horse, it does not live in a vacuum. Everything matters - geography, climate, prehistory, initial conditions, foreign policy environment, chosen priorities.
    What jump? In what? In the production of consumer goods? In the car industry? Consumer electronics?
    Well, excuse me .... in fact, for all this there were often not enough resources, metals (and non-ferrous), polymers ... And the priorities were different. At first, it was necessary to provide citizens with housing, related infrastructure (electricity, water supply, etc.), and only then focus on the production of cars and tape recorders.
    When in France (and in the USA) they developed their infrastructure, the standard of living there was also not so high. And this despite access to external resources (colonies or dependent countries). And the USSR, unlike that France or England, did not have colonies (from where you can download resources without giving a damn about the needs of the natives), they dragged everything on themselves, and even helped the allies.
  26. +2
    10 May 2023 14: 10
    Quote: Engineer
    The Bologna system allows a bachelor from Pyatigorsk to complete a master's degree in Moscow. And a bachelor from St. Petersburg - a master's degree in Utrecht or Milan.
    For the initial training "from scratch" in the above places, the vast majority of the so-called class simply does not have enough money. This is quite a social elevator, which the ignoramuses are unable to notice.


    If the bachelor has money. Since simply renting a house, living in Moscow is not cheap and not everyone can afford it.
    These social elevators are aimed at withdrawing fresh brains in favor of the West. This is the very essence of the Bologna system.
    1. +4
      10 May 2023 14: 35
      1. and without the Bologna system in the 90s, the "west" did not take the scientists after the collapse of the USSR?
      2. Inside the Russian Federation, half of the graduates do not work in their specialty - why did they teach so much - what's the difference - what quality - do they have a place to work?
      3. in normal, developed countries, they don’t create obstacles for potential people leaving, but try to make sure that the “best” themselves go to them from other countries - don’t you think that with this approach, the growth of science / production is better noticeable? Don't you think that the introduction of restrictions = a receipt of impotence?
      4. I talked with the teacher, he said that we simply don’t have a normal Bologna system in most universities, that’s why they give the corrected program of the specialist ..
      5. maybe the Bologna system does not interfere with learning, after all? and, for example, the possibility of passing exams in an "alternative" way, which is widely used?
      6. Do you really think that just by switching to a specialty, "superspecialists" will immediately begin to graduate from universities, different from today's? and what exactly is this "Bologna system" the main root of evil in education? and in the 2000s before its introduction, what was evil?
    2. 0
      10 May 2023 15: 24
      My wife's nephew entered a Moscow university, MIREA, on a budget last year, and they immediately gave me a hostel.
  27. 0
    10 May 2023 15: 20
    "And if a student is talented and ready to gnaw at the granite of science for a couple more years? Then, please, to the regional center or even to the capital of another region." But what, do we have a lot of universities outside the regional centers? The absolute majority of them are located in the centers of the subjects of the federation.
  28. -1
    10 May 2023 15: 23
    "For example, the Faculty of Mechanics and Mathematics, the Faculty of Chemistry, the Departments of Fundamental Physical and Chemical Engineering, Psychology, Space Research, Bioengineering and Bioinformatics of Moscow State University remained on a five-year specialty. All other departments, to one degree or another, are still on a two-stage education." All future doctors in all universities of the country also study under the specialist's program. By the way, psychologists and part of the humanities can leave the two-level system.
  29. +4
    10 May 2023 15: 33
    Quote: Illanatol
    Your teachers were talking nonsense.


    How much modesty and respect for the opinion of people completely unfamiliar to you sounds in this phrase. I see no reason to explain anything to you further. After all, you already know everything.
  30. +1
    10 May 2023 22: 27
    Reforms don't work that way. Of course, I didn’t finish magistracy and postgraduate studies, but it’s obvious to me: first, we need to expel those who mowed down the previous reforms. And only then appoint those who will mow at least in a new way, maybe they will find something interesting. And the old mower - he will mow as best he can, in the old way.
  31. +1
    11 May 2023 08: 31
    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
    1. and without the Bologna system in the 90s, the "west" did not take the scientists after the collapse of the USSR?


    So it was not about scientists (scientists do not become immediately after graduation), but about students (bachelors / masters).
    Of course he did. But in the West they perfectly understood that this source is not infinite. And for a better "digestion" it would be nice to bring the education of native students under the western comb. Bologna system - to the rescue.

    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
    2. Inside the Russian Federation, half of the graduates do not work in their specialty - why did they teach so much - what's the difference - what quality - do they have a place to work?


    Then they taught so much so that they would work THERE! What is unclear, citizen?
    And to make the choice richer, to choose the best - they taught with a considerable "margin". Those who did not fit the criteria - march to work as a "sales manager" or sit in a stall.
    Plus - commercial training is a good business.

    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
    in normal, developed countries, they don’t create obstacles for potential people leaving, but they try to do it so that the “best” themselves go to them from other countries - don’t you think that with this approach, the growth of science / production is better noticeable?


    Only for this we need priority and generous funding for knowledge-intensive industries. Both at the expense of the state and at the expense of the private sector. Our state is not so rich, but still tries to support science a little. But from the side of private business, this is not very noticeable. Yes, and not noticeable on the local horizon of their "masks" and "brinns". Alas, alas...
    To lure specialists from abroad is half the battle. They need to create appropriate working conditions, work out the mechanisms for introducing R&D. Who will be doing this? "Bologna" specialists? Do they need it?

    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
    maybe it’s not the Bologna system that interferes with learning, after all? and, for example, the possibility of passing exams in an "alternative" way, which is widely used?


    Who wants to learn - he will learn. Even the Bologna system will not interfere, although it does not provide a real holistic education due to its nature. Another thing is that in our universities often study those who should not be there, and who wants and can become a specialist, often does not have money for education. Higher education is becoming more and more elitist, alas.
    The main problem, of course, is not related to the Bologna system. Rather, the Bologna system is only an approximation to Western standards, quite class ones. The proletarians, from the point of view of the bourgeoisie, do not need a good education. But if the proletarian is still talented, he must be "assimilated" and made loyal to the elite.

    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
    6. Do you really think that just by switching to a specialty, "superspecialists" will immediately begin to graduate from universities, different from today's? and what exactly is this "Bologna system" the main root of evil in education?


    I had the opportunity to compare the graduates of the 90s with the "Bolognese". Alas, the comparison is not in favor of the latter, in my opinion. Then there were also enough problems, primarily related to the financial side. But then we had, albeit a mutilated and dystrophic, but still an adequate system of education of the Soviet model. What we have now cannot even be called education. No, the "Bologna system" is only a derivative, the root of the problem is much deeper. It is necessary to return to the Soviet system, making it more practical and related to production (technical specialties, partly natural sciences). The humanitarian sphere is of little interest to me, and it is so clear that our humanitarians in the majority have long been saturated with "Westernism."
    1. 0
      12 May 2023 06: 55
      Quote: Illanatol
      I had the opportunity to compare the graduates of the 90s with the "Bolognese".

      "Bolognese" really began, massively, to be recruited first! in 2007 in universities, and to graduate after 2010, before that there was a declarative accession - do you take this into account when comparing? because and in the 2000s there weren’t Bolognese yet ..
      I understand that we have a common opinion that the Bologna system is not the main problem in education and it is not necessary to start the reform with it?
  32. -1
    11 May 2023 08: 35
    Quote: billybones
    How much modesty and respect for the opinion of people completely unfamiliar to you sounds in this phrase. I see no reason to explain anything to you further. You already know everything


    If the opinion gives delusional, I will call a spade a spade.
    Of course, I was not born yesterday and I do not need explanations from those who are not able to critically evaluate other people's points of view and thoughtlessly broadcast them in the public space.
    You need to have your own head, and not take on faith the words of those who have never lived in our country and judge it by the tabloid Western press.
  33. 0
    12 May 2023 08: 53
    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
    "Bolognese" really began, massively, to be recruited first! in 2007 in universities, and to graduate after 2010, before that there was a declarative accession - do you take this into account when comparing? because and in the 2000s there weren’t Bolognese yet ..
    I understand that we have a common opinion that the Bologna system is not the main problem in education and it is not necessary to start the reform with it?


    Of course I do.
    The Bologna system - yes, not the main one, but I see no reason why not start with it. In the end, it was the "Bologna system" that finally buried the remnants of the Soviet education system (the collapse and deliberate degradation of which, in fact, began even in pre-perestroika times).
    Dismantling is quite natural to carry out in the reverse order.
    And the main problem of our education system, in fact, lies outside this system as such. But this is a separate issue.
  34. 0
    14 May 2023 13: 09
    The lap dog in the colonial countries is a means of evaluating and cheaply stealing ideas along with talents, because on the periphery there will never be opportunities to realize the idea, and Chubais of various ranks carefully monitor this.
    For this lapdog to work like in the G7, you need to have a desire to stay working in the Russian Federation and not in the Sarbonnes, businessmen interested in the development of their country, zero loans for development and production to citizens, then the ideas will be tested at home and not abroad, and this will pull the need for engineers at home and a lot of things.
    And the ban on the rejection of the adoption of one element of the system will bring nothing but joy to the director of the sawmill, and the system to adopt is a lot of adaptation and construction, which needs to be done with the setting and will not come out quickly. Education must provide personnel, personnel must support the system, the system must provide a product. What do we not have? Total.

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