Military Review

Myths of the Battle of Moscow: the Great Flood of November 1941

Myths of the Battle of Moscow: the Great Flood of November 1941

Some reflections on myths and myth-making

The battle for Moscow in Soviet historiography was extremely sparingly covered, and there were good reasons for that. The Soviet leadership was somehow embarrassed to admit that the German troops in the first months of the war literally defeated the invincible and legendary, and 6 months after crossing the border they occupied the vast territories of the Soviet republics, and even reached the outskirts of Moscow.

And that on October 15-16, 1941, due to the real danger of losing the capital, the evacuation of the government, Moscow institutions, enterprises and foreign missions began, which caused panic, unrest and gave rise to many rumors about the appearance of the Nazis on the outskirts of the city.

In addition, one of the armies that stopped the enemy on the northern outskirts of the capital and then drove him all the way to Volokolamsk was led by Vlasov, who later became a world-famous Soviet traitor general. Because of this, it was not customary to widely cover the bloody battles of the 20th Army in the area of ​​​​the village of Krasnaya Polyana (now it is the territory of the city of Lobnya) and its subsequent military operations in the Istra-Volokolamsk direction.

As you know, nature does not tolerate emptiness, therefore, in this case, the lack of truthful information has given rise to numerous myths that can be divided into two categories:

1) some were based on real events, but later (in the stories of participants or eyewitnesses) they were supplemented by numerous fictitious details (which in reality did not take place) and were usually overly glorified;

2) others were completely invented.

The first category includes the mythologized battles of 16.11.1941/1075/1073 in the defensive sectors of the 316th and 16.10.1941rd rifle regiments of the XNUMXth rifle division; to the second - German paratroopers in Neskuchny Garden in the center of Moscow; the appearance on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX of German motorcyclists on the Khimki auto-horse bridge; a German tank that magically appeared in the city of Tushino near the bypass canal, etc.

The myths of the two categories are united by the obvious unusualness of events, which is the main reason for their wide distribution and extreme vitality. Agree that when one of your friends “secretly” tells you about some event that strikes you with its improbability (or you find out from some publication or from TV), then you will be tempted not only to believe in it, but also to retell the content of what they heard to their friends. And those, in turn, amazed by what they heard, rush to retell it to someone else.

And if you later read somewhere that the colorful story is a fiction, then you will not want to believe it, because it is unpleasant for any person to admit that he is deceived or a deceiver.

This is how the mechanism for the appearance and spread of rumors and myths is arranged, which works according to this algorithm even today.

Flood of Moscow

In my opinion, the most “large-scale” myth of the Moscow battle is the “Moscow flood” organized by Stalin, which some “historians” even call a crime. For (according to their ideas) several dozen villages with civilians were suddenly flooded, who did not expect such a vile stab in the back from the Soviet authorities.

This myth belongs to the first category, that is, it is based on real events.

In November 1941, there was a threat of a German breakthrough to Moscow from the north. Then the command of the spacecraft came up with the idea to organize an artificial flood in order to slow down the pace of the enemy's advance. In the course of the implementation of the plan, the workers of the Moscow-Volga canal began to implement measures to create an engineering barrier by flooding the floodplains of the Sestra and Yakhroma rivers. For this, a spillway was opened from the canal south of the city of Yakhroma and the flow of the river was blocked. Sisters in the vicinity of Dubna. There, too, a spillway from the canal into the river was opened. As a result, ice was broken on both rivers and floods began.

However, the scheme attached to the published work "Use of canal structures for flooding during the period of hostilities" (compiled by the perpetrators of the flooding) makes it possible to understand that the area was flooded gradually (over a period of about 5 days), the scale of the flood was not catastrophic, and the rise in the water level in rivers (the flooding of their floodplains) did not much exceed the levels of previously occurring natural floods. Therefore, if some individual villages were flooded, then the residents in them had every opportunity for timely evacuation.

And in general, to call the damage from flooding “catastrophic” in that most difficult period of the war, when many dozens of villages were destroyed during the hostilities in the Moscow region, somehow the tongue does not turn ...

Events at the Istra Reservoir

The mythological picture of the “Moscow flood” often includes another myth: the explosion of the dam of the Istra reservoir by sappers, which allegedly caused a grandiose flood unprecedented in the history of the Istra district of the Moscow region.

This myth is notable for the fact that its creator was ... the General Staff of the spacecraft.

In several operational reports of the General Staff of the war years, describing the defensive battles of units 16 A in the Istra region, the following fragment was given:

Subsequently, this notorious turbulent stream up to 2,5 m high swept through the works of some domestic historians of the post-Soviet period, apparently building their own versions of the development of events based on information from the essays of the General Staff of the KA.

However, in the reporting documents of the units of the rifle divisions defending during this period on the western shore of the Istra reservoir and the river of the same name (8 Guards Rifle Division and 18 Rifle Division), there is no mention of any unusually high rise in the water level in the river. Istra. There is no mention in them of an explosion at the dam (dam) of the reservoir.

For example, from the combat report of the headquarters of the 18th Rifle Division, compiled on November 25.11.1941, 18 at 30:18, we learn that on the morning of that day, units of the XNUMXth Rifle Division began to cross to the eastern bank of the river. Istria on the bridge near Buzharovo. But suddenly appeared Tanks and the enemy infantry forced the Red Army to accept the battle, which ended in their defeat and the capture of this tactically important bridge by the enemy. As a result, German tanks crossed the bridge to the other side already at 16:23, developed an offensive, and by 00:XNUMX occupied the villages of Kurtasovo and Stepankovo ​​located on the eastern bank of the river.

And in the following days, the Germans used this crossing to further develop their offensive. Why a stream 2,5 meters high did not wash away this bridge and generally remained unnoticed by anyone is a big mystery.

So, maybe there was no dam rupture at all and the resulting grandiose flood?

Even more puzzling is the information from Operational Report No. 32 dated November 30.11.1941, XNUMX, signed by Deputy Chief Ing. ZapF controls:

Also in TsAMO there is an award list for the deputy commander of a company of the 61st division. pontoon bridge battalion st. Lieutenant Cherevik Timofey Ivanovich. From this document, we learn that on the 20th of November he was near the dam of the Istra reservoir with a platoon of 11 people, with the task of "... at the agreed signal to release water from the Istra reservoir and at the prearranged signal to undermine the spillways of the dam."

Tov. Cherevik approached the assigned task very responsibly. First, he mined the approaches to the dam from the side of Buzharovo and Bol. Ushakovo (on these mines, two German tanks were then blown up, foolishly sticking themselves up to the dam without conducting mine reconnaissance).

Then, on 25.11.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, when the situation became much more complicated and there was a danger of German tanks breaking through the dam to the east coast, comrade. Cherevik "... under enemy fire began to mine the control tower, hydroelectric power station and segments."

He completed this operation at 15:00, but by that time communication with the command (from where the signal to undermine was supposed to come) was interrupted. And when the German tanks broke through to the east bank of the river. Istra, st. the lieutenant took responsibility and “...decided to blow up the planned objects on the dam. He did this, and under enemy fire he withdrew with the team without loss.

No water stream 2,5 meters high is mentioned in the award - the consequences of the explosion are completely silent.

So how did it happen that the consequences of the actions of Art. l-ta Cherevik nobody noticed? Maybe in fact there was no undermining of the dam?

Can not be executed, have mercy

The answer to this question is given by A. V. Isaev in his book “Miracle near Moscow”. In it, the historian cites information from the reporting documents of the 5th Panzer Division of the enemy, whose units fought in the area of ​​the reservoir.

At 15:00, the Stegman battle group reports: "... the explosion destroyed 4 supports of the dam and part of its top, so that some water flows out, but there is no threat of flooding."

Also in German sources there is information that, according to German sappers, the dam was thoroughly mined, but the bulk of the explosive did not detonate for unknown reasons.

In this connection, the Germans put forward various versions, including damage to explosives, as well as a lack of time to undermine the entire dam from Soviet sappers.

In my opinion, the relatively minor damage to the dam is explained by the following consideration.

Cherevik was supposed to blow up the dam only after receiving the appropriate order (signal). But he could not receive such an order due to the lack of communication with the command. Meanwhile, there was a real threat of the enemy seizing the object entrusted to him - the situation dictated the need to undermine it as soon as possible. But suddenly, at the moment, the main part of the combat strength of the rifle regiments is still on the western bank of the reservoir?

And if he blows up the dam now, then the flow of water that has arisen will demolish all the bridges, cause a wide flood of the river and cut off the possibility for parts of the spacecraft to cross to the other side. It will also make it impossible to supply them with ammunition and launch an auxiliary counterattack in this area. As a result, the enemy will press our troops to the water barrier and completely destroy them.

After all, Cherevik did not receive an order to blow up the dam, therefore, in the event of an unfavorable development of the situation, do not demolish the senior lieutenant's head. It turns out that at least you blow up the dam, at least you don’t blow it up, in any case, if the outcome of events is negative, you can be made extreme.

Well, how to do it so that both the sheep are safe and the wolves are fed?

And then Timofey Ivanovich makes a truly Solomon decision: to undermine only the upper part of the dam so that it cannot be used for the movement of equipment. Which they did. As a result, German tanks and vehicles could not pass through the dam, and the spacecraft units retained the ability to ford or swim across the narrow Istra River.

Apparently, the command of the ZapF appreciated the resourcefulness of the hero, and as a result, he successfully received his Red Star for blowing up the dam.

In addition, I want to note that by the time of the events described, Timofey Ivanovich was already a shot sparrow, served in the Red Army since 1936 and went through the Soviet-Finnish war as part of a rifle battalion, where he distinguished himself and was awarded the Red Star. Yes, and he fought in the Great Patriotic War from the first day, and apparently, he had repeatedly been in such bindings, and therefore he knew how to find a way out of seemingly absolutely hopeless situations.

The foregoing allows us to conclude that although the dam was undermined, it actually survived, so a large supply of water remained in the Istra reservoir for a long time.

Aki on dry land

In passing, I want to mention one more small "water myth", now nurtured by our respected historian of the Great Patriotic War, Alexei Valeryevich Isaev, who, apparently, was confused by the Nazis.

The historian in his publications and public speeches repeatedly mentioned that in November 1941, before the approach of the Germans, a gradual discharge of water from the Istra reservoir was deliberately organized. What prevented the formation of an ice cover on the river. Istra, and also caused subsidence of ice to the very bottom on the reservoir.

As a result, the Germans, pursuing the retreating Red Army soldiers, crossed the reservoir "like dry land."

It can be assumed that the historian was misled by these passages from several German documents:

“... The attacking wing of the 4th Army crossed Istra in two places. The 11th Panzer Division crossed the dry reservoir on logs laid along the bottom. The 2nd Panzer Division from V Corps advanced 12 kilometers to the southeast. (from the memoirs of von Bock, entry for 25.11.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX).

“... the Istra reservoir is an extension of the riverbed with wetlands on both sides, which became conditionally passable after frosts. To the west of the Lopatovo region, our troops took possession of an undamaged gat. ” (report of headquarters 4 A 25.11.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX).

“... Multiple raids on settlements in the areas of operation of the 87th and 252nd infantry divisions. At section 11 TD low-level raids on the gat through the Istra Reservoir" (report of headquarters 4 A 25.11.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX).

It is quite tempting to combine these fragments together and eventually deduce an undoubted historical event: as a result of the discharge of water, the reservoir became so shallow that the Germans (or even before them the sappers of the spacecraft) built a path through it, along which their tanks with motorized infantry passed and which they then tried to bomb Soviet planes.

However, there is reason to believe that the Istra reservoir at that moment was still quite full-flowing. For if the reservoir were drained, then after an unsuccessful undermining of the upper part of the dam, water would not flow through it, as indicated in the earlier report of Stegman.

Most likely, if there was a passage of tanks over logs, it was probably somewhere in the upper reaches of the reservoir, where the water level could drop significantly due to natural reasons (the onset of frosts reduced the inflow of water). But the reservoir itself was still filled with water.

Finally, this question is clarified by ZhBD 857 ap 8th Guards. sd.

It states that on November 24, the 6th and 3rd batteries crossed the reservoir and took up firing positions in the area of ​​vil. Gorki. At this time, the 1st and 4th batteries took up positions on the western bank near the village. Old Alekhnevo and fought in support of 1073 joint ventures. At 15:00. the infantry retreated, retreating across the ice through the Istra reservoir to the Gorka area. Together with her, the two above-mentioned batteries also crossed, but during the crossing they were fired upon by enemy tanks that appeared, and “... during the retreat through the ice of the reservoir, 2 guns were drowned, of which one went under the ice with a horse train.” Apparently, shell explosions destroyed the ice cover, which caused losses. Then the headquarters of the regiment sent a detachment of shooters, "which covered the crossing from the enemy and helped to transport the convoy of the 1st and 4th batteries."

The foregoing allows us to conclude that on November 24 the ice did not sink or sag at all, but was strong enough to withstand the passage of people, horses, and even divisional guns. It also testifies that under the ice there was a layer of water of such great depth that the sunken cannon even dragged a team of horses to the bottom.

Following the Red Army soldiers, the Germans also crossed the reservoir, who by the end of the day on November 24 had entrenched themselves on the eastern bank, occupying the Lopotovo district.
Further, in ZhBD 857 ap it is reported that on November 25, the 3rd and 6th batteries disrupted the enemy’s crossing near the village with their fire. Lamishino. And on November 26, artillerymen fired at the enemy crossing in the Pyatnitsa area.

Thus, in the period of November 24–26, several crossings were formed in various places of the Istra Reservoir, used by both parts of the spacecraft and the Wehrmacht. It is possible that in some of the narrow sections of the central part of the reservoir (presumably near Lechishchevo), as early as the beginning of the second ten days of November, spacecraft sappers arranged a solid crossing in the form of logs lying on ice, along which heavy artillery pieces were evacuated to the eastern shore in advance. And it was this crossing that the translator working with German documents called the word “gat”.

The final undermining of the dam of the Istra reservoir

The myth about the November "drainage" of the reservoir is further refuted by the December documents of the military units of the spacecraft.

In particular, many documents record that when, during the December offensive, units of the spacecraft on December 11–12, 1941, approached the reservoir and the river. Istra, the Germans (presumably on December 11) blew up all the bridges and blew up the dam.

As a result, the water began to leave it quickly, the ice sagged on the reservoir, water went over it near the low western shore, and the water level in the river also rose. Istra.

The book "Moscow Battle in the Chronicle of Facts and Events" (M.: Voenizdat, 2004) provides the following artistic description:

“The Nazi command, trying to keep in their hands the advantageous Istra line, which represented a significant natural obstacle, blew up the dam of the Istra reservoir. A huge wave shot up from his side, sweeping away all living things in its path. The raging current carried away many people. Istra overflowed, spreading its banks to sixty meters wide. It was no longer a harmless rivulet that fell asleep under the ice. Now it was a serious water barrier.

(TsAMO. F. 208. Op. 2511. D. 159).

A flood of such a grandiose scale is not reflected in the reporting documents of the military unit of the spacecraft. However, there is no doubt that the forcing of this water line was difficult, and this circumstance was one of the three main reasons for the delay in the advance of 16 A units in this direction.

Operational reports recorded that on the night of December 1203-354, the Red Army soldiers of the 12rd joint venture of the 13th rifle division were able to cross the ice to the other side of the reservoir and occupy Armyagovo and Novoselovo. But then they were driven out of there by the enemy and returned to the eastern shore. On December 14, the regiments of the division again went on the attack, reached the western coast, but in the end they could not withstand the enemy's fire and returned back. And already on the night of December 15-16, units of the 354th Rifle Division again crossed to the eastern coast and found that the enemy was already gone. The foregoing indicates that the ice on the reservoir itself was strong enough to at least support people.

But to the south of the reservoir, where the river flowed. Istra, the situation was not so favorable.

On December 354, the left neighbor of 49 sd 12, a separate rifle brigade, approached the river opposite Buzharov, and then it turned out that the bridge had been blown up by the enemy, and water was flowing in the river. As a result, until the end of the day on December 14, the Red Army built crossing facilities and by the end of the day made an unsuccessful attempt to force the river. The next attempt was made on the night of December 15-16, and it turned out to be more successful: the arrows crossed to the east coast without resistance from the enemy, who by that time had already left their positions.

In ZhBD 3 Guards. osapb 9 guards. sd preserved information that on 13.12.1941/19/50, sappers were tasked with organizing a crossing across the river. Istra near vil. Trusovo (about 4 km downstream from the dam). However, this turned out to be not easy: the river overflowed, its width was about 2,5 meters, the depth was up to 3 meters, the flow rate reached XNUMX–XNUMX m/s. A strong current tore bundles of logs and carried them down. The crossing was made with great difficulty.

The indicated information allows us to conclude that during the period of forcing by parts of the spacecraft r. Istra, a strong flow of water was observed in it, which could hardly have happened if the Istra reservoir was drained at the end of November. What the command of the ZapF could not accomplish in November (to organize a flood in the Istra district and thereby delay the enemy’s offensive for several days), the Germans managed to do ...

Hack and predictor Aviator

The foregoing leads to two final conclusions.

The myths associated with the events of the Great Patriotic War are numerous, very diverse and can be born even today.

Even the information contained in the documents of the General Staff of the KA should be treated with great caution and, if possible, double-checked by comparing them with the data given in the reporting documents of the rifle divisions of the KA and military units of the Wehrmacht.
Photos used:
Internet and website Memory of the People

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  1. parusnik
    parusnik 12 May 2023 06: 02
    The myths associated with the events of the Great Patriotic War are numerous, very diverse and can be born even today.
    This is how our Russian cinematograph gives birth to them.
  2. Nikolay Malyugin
    Nikolay Malyugin 12 May 2023 06: 06
    The war presented such surprises that it is simply impossible to look for some kind of logic in our world. For example, a reconnaissance company is given the task of destroying an object. But having discovered German mines laid under this object, an order comes to save it at all costs. Only by being present at the same time can one understand the logic of such an action.
  3. Vladimir80
    Vladimir80 12 May 2023 06: 24
    It seems to me that the author himself "disperses" these myths, those who read textbooks on the history of release before 2000. I haven’t heard of anything like this ... I don’t know what is happening in textbooks now, I don’t believe in modern cinematographs about the war.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 12 May 2023 08: 09
      It seems to me that the author himself "disperses" these myths, those who read textbooks on the history of release before 2000. never heard of anything like it...
      Well, it's been 2000 years since 23, and what used to be a myth is now in print. So kudos to the author.
    2. NDR-791
      NDR-791 12 May 2023 08: 17
      Quote: Vladimir80
      those who read textbooks on the history of release before 2000. never heard of anything like it...

      I will tell you even more - those who read textbooks before 1983 (like me) generally lived in a fairy tale. Hence the conclusion - you need to read more and not only textbooks. For example, about the "big Moscow drape" 14/16.10.1941-XNUMX/XNUMX. was not in any textbook, my grandmother told me about it. They just evacuated with the plant at that time to Siberia. And if the workers of the plant were at the barracks and everyone did their job, then, let's call them co-workers, from all sorts of "state procurement plan for five years for three years" and other horns and hooves, just that panic was bred. Well, the corners were added because a half of the train, except for the evacuation, cannot provide any order, and half of the police were already at the front. Yes, and the panic itself began because of the now cherished "unconditional" faith in the government. Stalin said that we would not surrender Moscow, but the evacuation began. The people "understood everything" and ran safely. For me, it reminds me of some modern moments.
      1. Reader_lover
        Reader_lover 12 May 2023 19: 11
        About the drape was partly in Born of the Revolution. A hint that the bandits unbelted themselves in empty Moscow.
    3. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 12 May 2023 10: 35
      Vladimir80 (Vladimir80)
      It seems to me that the author himself "disperses" these myths, those who read textbooks on the history of release before 2000. I haven’t heard of anything like this ... I don’t know what is happening in textbooks now, I don’t believe in modern cinematographs about the war.

      As a historian, I cannot say that I follow all topics in all directions, but I have never heard of such a "myth".
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 12 May 2023 14: 24
        Edward, good afternoon. smile

        What specific myth are you referring to? And to be honest, I'm already confused. request
    4. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 12 May 2023 11: 28
      Quote: Vladimir80
      "I don't believe" a modern cinematographer about the war.

      How can a "cinema" be treated in the sense - I believe - I do not believe?
      The film is shot according to the script based on the work of art. In a work of art, the author has the right to fiction.
      Therefore, I believe - I do not believe it does not make any sense. The main claim to the authors is to adhere to the historical outline of the events that once occurred.
      For example - the film "Hot Snow" how to treat it according to the criteria - I believe - I do not believe? Y. Bondarev wrote a book, someone, I don't remember, wrote a script. All this is the invention of the author. But .., the historical outline is not violated - the battle of Stalingrad is won! Thanks to the MASS heroism of the soldiers and officers of the Red Army. which is shown in the movie.
  4. Lewww
    12 May 2023 12: 03
    Quote: Vladimir80
    those who read textbooks on the history of release before 2000. never heard of anything like it
    And it is not surprising - in school textbooks there are separate battles in the Moscow region. were not covered, with the exception of a heavily mythologized battle near times. Dubosekovo, and some non-existent long-range guns in Krasnaya Polyana
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 12 May 2023 14: 01
      Quote: Lewww
      And it is not surprising - in school textbooks there are separate battles in the Moscow region. were not covered, with the exception of a heavily mythologized battle near times. Dubosekovo, and some non-existent long-range guns in Krasnaya Polyana

      Honestly, you surprise me to no end. And not only you. And all those who wish that the history textbook "covers individual battles in the Moscow region."
      "A strongly mythologized battle near Dubosekovo" was introduced into the history textbook to show the tragedy of the situation and the heroism of the soldiers of the Red Army. Will you argue with this? I mean tragedy and heroism. And not separately near times. Dubosekovo, but the entire battle of Moscow, from defense to counteroffensive. And if we cover "individual battles" in history textbooks for schoolchildren, then when will they be engaged in other sciences? The school curriculum is already overloaded. It must be reduced at the expense of the unnecessary. Give only a general understanding of this or that event from the history of our country. They will receive more detailed knowledge of history at the historical faculty of the university. And in schools, they should study the main stages of the Second World War, the essence of the causes of the outbreak of war, the results of the Second World War and WWII.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 12 May 2023 17: 14
      in school textbooks separate fights in the Moscow region. were not covered, with the exception of a heavily mythologized battle near times. Dubosekovo,
      Oh really? And about the Podolsk cadets, and about Major Starchak, who, on his own initiative with his paratroopers, held the line near Yukhnov until the Podolsk cadets approached, was there also?
      1. Lewww
        12 May 2023 17: 19
        Actually, it seemed like it was about school textbooks on the history of release until 2000.
        Are you sure that they described the battles of the Starchak detachment?
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 13 May 2023 09: 38
          Are you sure that they described the battles of the Starchak detachment?
          I am sure that in the textbooks of the 60s (and this was before 2000) there were about Podolsk cadets, because I myself studied at school then. There were his memoirs about Starchak, which were told to us in elementary grades at extracurricular reading lessons. By the way, when did you go to school?
  5. Lewww
    12 May 2023 15: 10
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Honestly, you surprise me to no end. And not only you. And all those who wish that the history textbook "covers individual battles in the Moscow region."
    And why did you decide that I regret that individual battles in the Moscow region were not covered in school textbooks?
    I did not touch this issue at all and did not even think about its relevance.
    fight near times. Dubosekovo" was introduced into the history textbook in order to show the whole tragedy of the situation and the heroism of the soldiers of the Red Army. Will you argue with this?
    Well, yes, it probably is. That's just an example not the most successful, but it has historically happened - it's too late to change
  6. Alexey Alekseev_5
    Alexey Alekseev_5 12 May 2023 17: 24
    The aftr heard the ringing but did not know where he was. The first to clear this topic was L.P. Beria. Hydraulic engineers serving the system of dams and reservoirs suggested the idea of ​​​​flooding the advancing Nazi troops by overflowing from one reservoir to another. Technically it was possible. They quickly made a justification and reported Beria. The next day, these engineers were taken to Stalin. There is a corresponding entry in Stalin's visit log. The floodgates were opened and the offensive of the German troops was suspended. Yes, dozens of villages were flooded. not the essence.
  7. Reader_lover
    Reader_lover 12 May 2023 19: 24
    The topic of flooding began to "emerge" after perestroika. Individuals flooded the region almost to Moscow)
  8. Fangaro
    Fangaro 13 May 2023 00: 16
    Thank you for the article!
    An interesting way to divide the available information into two options: possible and unlikely. It's better than Was or Wasn't. And make your own decision based on information from other sources. Incl. from indirect ones.
    So at least you can’t draw a categorical conclusion.
    I will remain a supporter of the improbability of targeted flooding of villages.
  9. Damask
    Damask 17 July 2023 11: 06
    Well, yes, they dug a large ditch around the capital, filled it with water and won, no specifics, just pzdabols