Military Review

State defense order: Shoigu tests Serdyukov method

131
The change of the Minister of Defense of Russia was seen only as the salvation of the State Defense Order, which over the years of its work could not be realized by Anatoly Serdyukov. It seemed that it was necessary only to give him a strong business assistant, or to replace him with the economic manager himself, as the situation would get off the ground. However, what seems at first glance is not always true. Here and in the case of the State Defense Order, the reality turned out to be much more complicated than the change of responsible persons.

Many remember the appointment of Dmitry Rogozin at the end of last year as Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, who was called to supervise the military-industrial sector and, in close contact with the Ministry of Defense and Russian industrialists, to bring both companies to the conclusion of breakthrough production and supply contracts military equipment to the troops. Great hopes were pinned on this appointment of Rogozin, but only the State Defense Order was either not given to the teeth, or it exhausted all interested and responsible parties. One of the highlights here is the conclusion of contracts for the supply of Borei-class submarines, when only the direct intervention of Vladimir Putin allowed the parties to “understand” each other and put their signatures under the agreement. Only the contract, as it turned out, did not suit either one or the other, as the industrialists asked to throw them another 5% from above, while Anatoly Serdyukov’s department said that this was robbery, and therefore the price should be reduced at least threefold .

It turns out that in the United Shipbuilding Corporation today, Borei is being built, but clearly not impressed with the level of payment for its work. At the same time, the Ministry of Defense allocates money for production, but, in turn, is also gritting his teeth and hoping for a reduction in the total cost, which in itself looks utopian.

In general, all these tensions and omissions in communication between the Ministry of Defense and the manufacturers of military equipment on the state defense order could, as many expected, be decided by the resignation of Minister Serdyukov. And it really looked like the lesser of evils, because few people wanted to dive, as they say, with the head.

Minister, in the end, removed. Whether it is impossible to effectively conclude contracts with manufacturers, or not in connection, this is no longer the case ... But the new minister, who didn’t really have time to get used to the new place, faced the same problems that the previous supreme military apparatus faced departments. It would seem that the strong-willed and highly experienced Sergei Shoigu with his professional environment, in which there are former representatives of the military-industrial sector, should literally put things in order with an iron hand in terms of the implementation of the State Defense Order, using the support of Deputy Prime Minister Rogozin. But it turned out that the matter is much more complicated than anyone from the outside seemed before. Apparently, having studied the estimates for the preparation and creation of modern samples of military equipment, Shoigu took up his head. At a recent meeting of the Government of the Russian Federation, the new Minister of Defense stated that the Ministry could execute the program of the GOZ in monetary terms, but the program would then not be implemented in quantitative terms. “... I'm not talking about quality,” added Sergey Shoigu.

In other words, the price list itself, which is inserted by the manufacturers of military equipment in Russia today, is such that even with the level of funding for army modernization and fleet Until 2020, which is voiced by the highest authorities (23 trillion rubles), it is impossible to buy mathematically as many units of military equipment as troops need. Either it is necessary to reduce the planned amount of equipment for procurement by the state, or to force industrialists to cut prices.

The first is impossible, since then plans to re-equip the army of Russia with 70% in the coming years are completely disrupted. The second is impossible, because no sane industrialist will not work at a loss in a market economy, to which we, it seems, have passed. But did it not happen that the prices that today are designated by production associations for their services in creating military equipment are, to put it mildly, a bit overpriced. Perhaps someone here also sees the option to heat their own hands, lifting the price bars to such limits as to excuse me, I can grab a solid piece? Is it so?
Sergei Shoigu at the same government meeting entered into an almost open dispute with the Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov. The head of the military department wonders on what basis the prices of aviation equipment over the past four years have grown significantly. In particular, Shoigu notes that helicopters in Russia have become more expensive since 2008-2009 by 3-5 times, and planes - by half. Since 2010 cost tanks T-90, taking into account modernization measures, has grown significantly and amounts to about 118 million rubles. With other military equipment, which should be supplied to the troops according to the plans for the implementation of the State Defense Order, the situation is approximately the same. Industrial enterprises raise prices without paying any attention to inflation laws. Indeed, if we take into account that the total inflation over the past four years amounted to no more than 30%, it turns out that a five-fold increase in prices for the same helicopter equipment is an obvious bust, even if we take into account that the inflation rate is an average indicator.

If we consider such impressive prices for Russian equipment, then the explanation of the level of these prices may be as follows. Either there is a force that artificially warms up the financial component of the process of creating military equipment for the needs of the Ministry of Defense, taking advantage of the fact that huge money is allocated for the purchase of such equipment. Or, prices grow objectively for one simple reason: a clear depreciation of the production component, a decrease in production capacity, which themselves need serious modernization. After all, it is not a secret that in many enterprises that position themselves as producers of military equipment of the new generation or modernized equipment, equipment produced during the Khrushchev's “thaw” is used. If for their time these machines were a technical and technological breakthrough (and even then not always), then today they are simply morally obsolete. It would be time to replace them with more modern ones, but there is often not enough money to buy modern ones, and therefore the last juices are squeezed out of the equipment, on which even fathers and grandfathers fulfilled five-year plan plans.

Obviously, the use of a worn-out technical fund leads to higher prices for any products manufactured on its basis. Even if using many of these machines to make colanders and pans, then such dishes will be three times-four times more expensive than products of enterprises that have switched to the use of modern technology. Here, issues of energy saving are important, as well as technological principles of production, and a decrease in the intensity of human labor, leveling of the error factor, and much more. After all, nowhere do they claim that they will “catch up and overtake” modern industrial complexes with the help of an improvised wooden machine inherited from ancestors. And we sometimes say ...

In this connection, the attempts of the Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov to justify themselves in the overpricing of military equipment produced in Russia look somewhat strange. According to him, there is simply nothing left for industrialists, because the profitability of Russian enterprises in the military-industrial complex does not exceed 6-7% on average. They say that this is why Russian enterprises either have to work at a loss, or simply reject those proposals that come from the Ministry of Defense as part of the implementation of the State Defense Order.

On the one hand, the problems of industrialists can be understood. But after all, as often happens, the owners and managers of production, they do not always decide on the modernization of their own enterprises. It is highly undesirable for many industrialists to purchase new equipment that would allow them to perform their tasks faster and with better quality. After all, you don’t always want to invest this profit in the development of enterprises. Much more often, the profits of enterprises are mastered in other ways according to the principle: we use earnings now, and then be that to be ...

Such a difficult situation in the military-industrial sector would help to refresh either the state program for the modernization of production itself, or the attraction of private capital, which, by the way, is practiced in many countries of the world where the military-technical sector is well developed. But both the state program and the attraction of private capital require time, which remains less and less until the end of the announced military reform. It turns out that the same Ministry of Defense will have to either carry out a temporaryуrestructuring of the technical fleet of the army and navy, or continue to butt with manufacturers, figuring out why it is so expensive, and how to buy cheaper.

Sergei Shoigu, realizing that no one would allow him to shift the plans for modernizing the army in time (after all, the timeline directive came from above, and Shoigu does not look like a revolutionary minister), he decided to somehow frighten the industrialists. He said that if no progress was made when reaching agreements on prices with them, the Defense Ministry would simply be forced to buy products from foreign manufacturers. This idea was immediately supported by Prime Minister Medvedev, who said that Russian manufacturers should feel that foreigners breathe in their heads. Like, the only way you can expect a sense. Do you think? ..

With these statements by Sergei Shoigu and Dmitry Medvedev in general, some kind of incident is obtained. After all, in fact, in the Ministry of Defense and the Government they come to what they have recently, sort of left. More precisely, not quite like that: we thought so that we left, but in fact there is no other way out than banging the table with a fist and demanding price cuts from Russian enterprises in the military-industrial complex to fully implement the state defense order.

In this connection, the reaction of industrialists is interesting. If, suddenly, after such an offensive by Shoigu-Medvedev, prices suddenly fall down, it would mean that the matter was all in the banal desire of interested parties in the military-industrial complex to fill their pockets with budget money (as a reserve, as they say). And if there is no noticeable reduction in prices for military equipment, it will mean that the reason lies in the laws of the market, based on the use of technology, materials, and investments. There is no one, no other, no third, but it is necessary to ensure the state defense order, which means that it is necessary to dig the ground at an exorbitant price, remembering in the soul with the “good” words of all ministers by name.
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  1. vladimirZ
    vladimirZ 28 November 2012 07: 51
    +35
    The President and the Chairman of the Government, that is to say, the "Prime Minister", must manage the state sector of the economy, incl. defense industry, restoring the State Planning Committee and Soviet methods of economic management in the public sector, and not to carry out "direct intervention of Vladimir Putin", which "allowed the parties to" understand "each other and put their signatures on the agreement. Only the contract, as it later turned out, did not suit any nor the other side. "
    But they do not know how to do this, specialists who knew how to do it were dispersed in the course of criminal privatization. And now they only know how to give instructions that no one follows because of their unprofessionalism and appoint the same ministers who are only able to "cut" the state budget into their own pocket and hide it in Western banks.
    1. aktanir
      aktanir 28 November 2012 07: 59
      +47
      The reasons for the inflated prices are banal to impossible. When industrialists heard about tens of trillions allocated to the defense industry, everyone, without exception, wanted to warm their hands on this. The concept of "Motherland" has depreciated long ago, no one wants to think about the sacred duty of defending it, one's shirt, as they say, is closer to the body. And what is the Motherland to them? They steal from the state by selling it a low-quality product, for example, a satellite, which will subsequently fail at the start, and then, having full pockets, they will be ready with a clear conscience to dump from the country to some Courchevel or London.
      At an expensive price is not the final product, but literally every penny screw of which it consists.
      The reason is the leaders of the military-industrial complex, middle and lower managers who are responsible in assessing their invaluable work. Everyone needs jeeps, mansions, summer residences, holidays in the USA, etc. And the country's leadership is involved in this. The fish rots from the head.
      Now there is no fashion to defend their country, now there is a general desire to live richly, better than a neighbor, friend and relatives. This makes people "try" - demand and take bribes, kickbacks, rob the state. Nothing is sacred because there is no control and no proper punishment. And until it will, because, as we all know, the country's leadership will not make decisions directed against their own thieves' essence.
      1. military
        military 28 November 2012 10: 31
        +13
        Quote: aktanir
        The reasons for overpriced are banal to impossible. When industrialists heard about the tens of trillions allocated to the defense industry, everyone wanted to warm up on this hand.

        that's how it is! ... the modernized T-90 for 118 million "wooden" we "cannot afford" so much that heartburn appears, accompanied by an ardent desire to buy something foreign ... what
        I wonder who today you can buy a modern tank from the hill for 3,8 million Baku (118 million p)? ... recourse The same "Abrams" in the М1А2 modification cost 1999 green lamas back in 6, and today ... laughing
        in the light of such "revelations" information about the start of work on the preparation of a certain "transitional" GPV (2015-2025) no longer inspires optimism in terms of the chances of the implementation of GPV-2020 ... feel interesting girls are dancing! ...
        1. prunx
          prunx 28 November 2012 17: 50
          -1
          Quote: military
          that's how it is! ... the modernized T-90 for 118 million "wooden" we "can't afford" so much that heartburn appears, accompanied by an ardent desire to buy something foreign ... I wonder who you can buy over the hill today a modern tank for 3,8 million Baku (118 million rubles)? ... the same "Abrams" in the M1A2 modification cost 1999 green lamas back in 6, and today ...

          Well, leopard 2 comes from 4 million. $. You can study the market and find an acceptable option.
          Quote: military
          in the light of such "revelations" information about the start of work on the preparation of a certain "transitional" GPV (2015-2025) no longer inspires optimism in terms of the chances of fulfilling the GPV-2020 ... it is interesting the girls are dancing! ...

          For any, do you have a brilliant and instant solution to this problem?
          1. military
            military 29 November 2012 13: 43
            +2
            Quote: prunx
            For any, do you have a brilliant and instant solution to this problem?

            Well, what are you? ... feel while there is only a feeling that someone’s pre-election 3,14 star is slowly starting to deflate ... request
        2. Yasniper
          Yasniper 29 November 2012 15: 59
          -1
          In general, prices in the domestic and foreign markets differ on average by 2 times and in the domestic market Abrams will cost ......
      2. Ross
        Ross 28 November 2012 12: 02
        +27
        aktanir,
        Tough but fair in many ways. I know examples from life. In 1990, he left the Admiralty Association for free bread, and 6 years later he met by chance with a former friend from the A.O. The former welding foreman was retrained as a supply engineer. All his work was related to the procurement of profiles for the stocks. I naively asked that it was you who had moved to a low-paid office job, where salaries were delayed for 6 months, and so on. To which he grinned and said that in three years of work he was already buying an apartment for 3! And despite the fact that 2/3 of the money is transferred from each transaction to its head of department! And instead of direct purchases at the Cherepovets Metallurgical Plant, they buy through the firms of "friends".
        If even at low levels the factory management does not control corruption, imagine what a multi-level monster lives in the military-industrial complex? What is there to be surprised at? We need to impose strict discipline and control, from top to bottom at each enterprise, otherwise we will stumble.
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 28 November 2012 15: 29
          +6
          That is why the State Planning Commission is needed, which will be a priority military orders, and for others in the public sector, to plan direct government deliveries from the same Cherepovets Steel Mill without intermediaries.
          And the Cherepovets Combine under these state orders will plan state delivery of already state-ordered supplies of ore, coke, fuel, etc. along the entire production chain of state products.
          All this will be carried out at strictly reasonable state prices, which in the end will form the final cost of state-ordered aircraft, submarines, tanks and other products that will be produced in the public sector of the economy.
          All this was carried out in the Soviet Union, and therefore the army and navy received military equipment stably and regularly at the state price.
          1. PROXOR
            PROXOR 28 November 2012 15: 42
            +3
            Vladimir What kind of kindergarten? Who now decides for you where you will work and what to do? The value of any unit in the ability to work autonomously on the principle of self-regulation. Who will develop the standards?
            Hi: The state comes to the Cherepovets Steel Mill and says - give me so much metal for the plan. He replied: At what price? The state shows the price below the market and the plant sends the state in three cheerful letters with 100% load and working for export. And it has the right - the plant is private and is not obliged to work for the state. You miss the main point of the article. The problem of the military-industrial complex is not the price of raw materials, it is approximately equal around the world, namely, how we use it. Example: in Tanya and old Europe, an oil refinery receives 1-450 liters of high-octane gasoline with an octane rating of 500 from 92 ton of oil, and we have all the refineries that can have a maximum of 180-195 liters of gasoline from the same ton. The price of tons is the same. So where is gasoline cheaper under equal conditions of the price of raw materials. ONLY MODERNIZATION OF PRODUCTION. Only she will be able to reduce the price of the final product (unless of course they try to invest 10 times the cost of the same equipment for its production).
            1. vladimirZ
              vladimirZ 28 November 2012 16: 51
              +1
              PROXOR, the state still has a significant share in the fuel and raw materials sector, and for good this share should again be made almost 100% (which, by the way, the Communist Party insists).
              Based on this point of state deliveries of raw materials and fuel, it is necessary to introduce a state order for the production of state products along the entire technological chain of production of strategic goods that are necessary for the state. There is nothing surprising here, it will be beneficial not only for state-owned enterprises (where there is a state controlling block of shares), but also for private ones — stable loading with state delivery of raw materials at solid prices.
              Well, the PRODUCTION MODERNIZATION, which you are talking about, is of course necessary, but it is not decisive. The main thing is ORGANIZATION and PLANNING OF PRODUCTION in strategic sectors of the economy on a national scale. GOSPLAN RF.
              And the Delitanian interventions of Putin and Medvedev bring only chaos and confusion to industry.
              1. PROXOR
                PROXOR 28 November 2012 17: 43
                +3
                vladimirZ,
                I fundamentally disagree. Opportunities planning state procurement in some way will not affect the final product. You can’t squeeze as much juice from the already squeezed lemon. So here, there are costs for equipment, energy, logistics. And if we introduce a planned economy, it should be completely like that. I repeat once again: the MARKET ECONOMY in principle does not imply a joint activity with the PLANNED ECONOMY. Example: An employee of a commercial plant will receive, well, suppose 30 tons of rubles per month, and enterprises of the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation only 15-20 tons of rubles in order to reduce the cost of the final product. What do you think: WHERE WILL HE GO TO WORK? And now my scenario. To produce a complex part, you need a lathe, a milling and a drilling machine (electricity costs are not small, because the machines are made on electric motors of the 30-40s, the salary of three workers and plus the percentage of defects because everything is done manually, including measurements) and as an alternative we have a complex machine with an CNC that has all these functions in itself (it eats less electricity, because modern electronic components are already made taking into account the increased energy prices, and there is only one operator, and the percentage of defects will be negligible, thanks to the control from the Computer). COMPETITION RESULTS: The production of the same part using the old technology will take more metal, more energy and the salary of 3 workers; for the new one, the first two points will naturally be clearly less than the old one and the salary is combined and an adequate salary is paid at the plant. As a result, there are no notorious industrial landscapes, but there is a bright modern production in which young personnel will strive for a normal RFP.
                Moreover, to ensure public procurement, it will be necessary to expand the state apparatus again and organize a new ministry in addition to the current management of the plant. And this is again APARTMENTS for officials; BENEFITS for them, their families, their dogs - cats, their mistresses; CARS with blue beacons so that this whole army of Dormaedov could "think" how to properly buy everything you need.
                I honestly AGAINST my taxes to be spent that way.
                1. vladimirZ
                  vladimirZ 28 November 2012 19: 15
                  +1
                  Not only do you, PROXOR, disagree. In the USSR, the planned system worked perfectly until it began to destroy amateurs like Khrushchev.
                  An example of the joint activities of the PLANNED ECONOMY and the MARKET is China 30 years after the start of the reforms, which came out on the second place in the world in industrial development, and not far off and the first.
                  In addition, all developed industrial countries, including and the United States, to one degree or another, uses elements of state economic development, has a public sector of the economy.
                  Only Russia, under the leadership of the "great market people" Gaidar and Chubais, plunged into the market swamp and in an instant ruined and destroyed the largest industrial power. And their followers Putin and Medvedev continue their policies.
                  By the way, Chubais recently stated for what purpose destructive reforms in the economy were carried out in our country - with the goal of destroying the socialist way of life and breaking down socialism as a formation.
                  1. survivor
                    survivor 28 November 2012 19: 38
                    +1
                    in fact of the matter. in the late 80s and early 90s, China was in the shadow of its mighty neighbor, the USSR. little attention was paid to him. it can be seen even from amerskih films. There were many times fewer Chinese "bad guys" than Russian "bad guys". remember the remba))). the task was to destroy the USSR, but the task was not to destroy China. That is why the denigration of the planned economy, its replacement with a market one with the etching of all economic ties between the subjects of one, at that moment, country took place in the USSR, and China was simply able to learn from its neighbor what is good and what is bad. in other matters, as always. they even introduced the planned economy with such excesses that our excesses during collectivization will seem like flowers. with the collapse of the USSR, China had a historic opportunity for a breakthrough. it would be stupid if they did not take advantage of this opportunity.
                  2. PROXOR
                    PROXOR 29 November 2012 09: 31
                    0
                    vladimirZWHAT A PLANNED ECONOMY IN CHINA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! China entered the market economy just in the early 80s and the result is obvious. Vladimir, you better not say such nonsense.
                  3. Feroma
                    Feroma 29 November 2012 17: 37
                    +1
                    An unsuccessful example, China is a densely populated country with a low level of wages; there, at the expense of cheap power slave, it is possible to talk about industrial successes but nothing more. Here Japan is another successful example of the introduction of modern technology, with a population many times smaller than in China, the Japanese maintain a leading position in many industries, precisely due to the high robotization of production.
                    1. Hon
                      Hon 30 November 2012 09: 13
                      +1
                      Slave labor in China is no longer cheap, many products can already be called high-quality, and their economy has not been planned for a long time.
                2. military
                  military 29 November 2012 13: 59
                  0
                  Quote: PROXOR
                  Moreover, to ensure public procurement, it will be necessary to expand the state apparatus again and organize a new ministry in addition to the current management of the plant. And this is again APARTMENTS for officials; BENEFITS for them, their families, their dogs - cats, their mistresses; CARS with blue beacons so that this whole army of Dormaedov could "think" how to properly buy everything you need.

                  by the way, you are missing out on Rosoboronzakaz with its two departments - "state order" and "state order support", taken out from under the Ministry of Defense to the diocese of the government ... so DORMAEDA has long been in business ... request
                  Quote: PROXOR
                  I honestly AGAINST my taxes to be spent that way.

                  I also... drinks
                  Quote: PROXOR
                  And now my scenario.

                  beautiful ... just ... the fate of those very "three workers" who will be replaced by one "operator" throughout the country are not happy ... what
              2. Feroma
                Feroma 29 November 2012 17: 33
                0
                "Well, the MODERNIZATION OF PRODUCTION, which you are talking about, is certainly needed, but it is not decisive." she is darling and only she - the modernization of production - is the determining factor, even if you super-duper organize the organizational part, without modern technologies, in this situation you can only produce hoes
        2. bunta
          bunta 29 November 2012 10: 17
          +1
          I don’t know how now. But in our time (80-e), the duty of military acceptance included a financial audit. Once, during such a check of the estimates for the complex, a purely arithmetic (?) Error was discovered worth a million Soviet money.
          1. military
            military 29 November 2012 14: 18
            +1
            Quote: bunta
            I don’t know how now. But in our time (80s), the financial inspection was also the duty of military acceptance.

            Now her duties include the analysis of labor intensity (in kind) and material costs (raw materials, KIMP, special equipment) ...
            everything else - agreeing on the basic level of salary attributable to work on the state defense order, the level of overhead costs of the contractor, the estimated level of profitability, the issuance of a final conclusion on projects of planned and actual prices ... - sorry, "crap!" ... request
            and this "cuckoo" was born simultaneously with the birth of those very trillions ... that's what a "coincidence" ... wink
        3. NSG42
          NSG42 30 November 2012 07: 21
          0
          Ross,
          Well ? They wanted a free country, they wanted market relations - please! get it!, and now we are opening our mouths and there is not enough air, my throat is spasmodic. But is it time to stop before it's too late. It may still not all have to be denied and abandoned from the former Great Country, but to disperse all private traders who profit from the people's good and take them under state guardianship. And leave the market for little things. Oh yeah! not to forget yet, to send all those devils to Anadyr, let the stones be rolled to the Bering Strait, so that they do not have time to wash off abroad, otherwise the court and government are very humane to individuals, and not to the people.
      3. Blackscorp
        Blackscorp 28 November 2012 14: 28
        0
        aktanir

        I agree with you 100%.
        About two days ago I talked about the same thing, we allocated 23 trillion. rubles, but the prices are still not really agreed with anyone (there are dissatisfied on both sides) .... now just the prices will fit the amount and amba .... and today's 6,7 billion theft will seem like a fairy tale ....
      4. 28 November 2012 20: 39
        0
        Quote: aktanir

        The reasons for overpriced are banal to impossible. When industrialists heard about the tens of trillions allocated to the defense industry, everyone wanted to warm up on this hand.

        If we approach this issue purely economically, then the sharp increase in prices is quite in the spirit of the market economy. Imagine that demand is growing and will continue to grow (moreover, it is effective demand, since everyone knows that there is money), and you have no competitors. What will you do with the price? It's clear to lift it up, they say, they will buy it anyway, they won't go anywhere. Since there is no conscience left, then tough competition is needed. It's like the story with the "Tiger", how that immediately and protection class 6a was drawn.
      5. Yasniper
        Yasniper 29 November 2012 15: 58
        0
        But if, as in the song `` If tomorrow is war, '' who will fight? Moscow, apart from watchdogs, is not interested in anything, the rich will scatter and if only a few remain, they should immediately give the hero of Russia, if there is such a country. Something tells us that we will lose it completely. 20% of the country's population lives in Moscow and the region, and the most fattened ones, and it will be like with Chechnya, that it was forbidden to send recruits from Moscow and the region to Chechnya. Eh devils what awaits us, it turns to the left
      6. Feroma
        Feroma 29 November 2012 17: 27
        +1
        Of course, your statement is doubtful, not all industrialists who are selfish, thinking only of their own benefit, are quite responsible people, but the essence of the whole problem with government orders can be reduced to two most probable reasons:
        1 The monstrous deterioration of machine tools, the energy productivity of factories, the lack of elements of modern industrial conveyor production, de-computerization (perhaps they still count on calculating machines, and draw drawings on the boards)
        2 Temporary henchmen (managers) here it is valid for everything according to the scheme So far, grab more from the feeder
        1. Strategia
          Strategia 29 November 2012 17: 57
          0
          There should not be responsible or irresponsible people, the BE AND WORK LAW should put everyone in the position of RESPONSIBLE OFFICERS.
    2. Fox
      Fox 28 November 2012 08: 14
      +16
      add: metals, energy, content, etc. many times higher than abroad! and then the production is to blame for the high cost! example: a Chinese stainless steel gate valve is cheaper than metal for its manufacture with us! putinoids were drunk, nowhere else ...
      1. rolik
        rolik 28 November 2012 13: 55
        +4
        Yes, not putinoids, rather Yeltsinoids. From there the legs grow, from there the word "kickback" has gone. Putin's big mistake is that he does not reintroduce the death penalty. And he does not shoot for bribery and embezzlement, as in China. In general, I think that embezzlement should be equated with treason-shoot tries accordingly.
        1. Hon
          Hon 28 November 2012 14: 25
          0
          Quote: rolik
          Putin’s big mistake is that he doesn’t introduce the death penalty back.

          then start with yourself. or was it news to him that Serdyukov’s Amazons consider money to be centners? for some reason, the question of bringing to account the stool itself is not raised.
          Quote: rolik
          Yes, not Putinoids, rather Yeltsinoids

          But Putin is by chance not a Yeltsin protege?
    3. baron.nn
      baron.nn 28 November 2012 09: 35
      +10
      vladimirZ ^
      Totally agree with you! Key sectors of the economy, such as the military-industrial complex, extractive industry, etc.) should be concentrated in state hands! Then the madhouse with the conclusion of contracts do not wake up and bankrupt defense enterprises does not occur to anyone !!!
    4. Rustam
      Rustam 28 November 2012 10: 34
      +6
      prices have soared in recent years, but the quality suffers, so they return military specialists, some think that you can warm your hands
      especially subcontractors

      I’ll say a bit in defense of the parent enterprises that it is necessary to poke allies
      It’s not so simple with pricing.
      Until 2011, the Moscow Region, asserting prices for final products, also approved prices for suppliers of the 2nd and 3rd order (components). Then, Serdyukov said, we affirm the prices for finished products, and you yourself deal with suppliers. So it turned out that the suppliers of prices lifted up, and the final manufacturer had to get out.

      Disruption of the state defense order comes from delays in determining the state defense order and payment of an advance on it. From the moment of advance payment, the finished product first comes out no less than six months later - components are ordered, subcontractors buy materials and begin to make them - that’s 4-5 months.
      1. bask
        bask 28 November 2012 11: 00
        +5
        Presuy do not presuy. All subcontractors are private companies. How do you get them to set low prices for your products ??? Here is the result of privatization No. 1, everything and everything. These same shit and EBN DAM, all related enterprises of the military-industrial complex were sold to private owners ... And now what do they want? It is necessary to carry out the nationalization of the entire defense industry !!! And including subcontractors. In parallel, change the fleet of obsolete machine tools, introduce new technologies. And for the products of the military-industrial complex, prices for electricity, gas, are half the wholesale .... And total control over spending ..
        1. Rustam
          Rustam 28 November 2012 11: 47
          +3
          I am only for - I’ve been talking about this for more than 1,5 years
      2. military
        military 28 November 2012 12: 16
        +3
        Quote: Rustam
        It’s not so simple with pricing.

        by the way, to the question of the "low" profitability of the heads ...
        Order of the Federal Customs Service No. 394, which determines the methodology for calculating the planned profitability, seems to have not been canceled ... at the same time, the stool department unilaterally stole it, limiting the standard of deductions from imported costs in the structure of production costs, at the level of 1% ... and if we take into account that in the structure of the cost price of the head of the head, the share of the imported costs (cooperation) oh-th (!), then here is the "low profitability" of the head ... request
    5. vezunchik
      vezunchik 28 November 2012 12: 50
      +1
      Grandfather Krylov is right - if you don’t sit down, everyone is not good at musicians.
    6. rolik
      rolik 28 November 2012 13: 49
      +4
      And it would be very good to ask the natural monopolies (oil industry, electric power industry) from which fears they raise prices for their products. And why the hell are they compensating for their losses at the expense of the population and enterprises. Because their losses are directly related to their disgusting management and organization of production. The only positive among them is the system that was introduced at Rosatom. Many large enterprises, but not our monopolies, are adopting this management system. That's who should be called on the carpet to the Kremlin and shown from the window all the beauties of the Kolyma Territory.
      1. Hon
        Hon 28 November 2012 14: 28
        +3
        And they go to the Kremlin regularly and all tariffs and prices are agreed. By the way, wait for the increase in tariffs for utilities ...
        1. bask
          bask 28 November 2012 15: 53
          +1
          Agrees guys. Energy monopolies + utilities tariffs ((((water can .. and so on (((, private traders in production. + Larceny-kickbacks at all levels = our equipment and costs proctically, at the level of world prices. Although workers and engineers get pennies for their work ... Without scrapping the whole economic model (((primitive oligarchic capitalism is indispensable ... A planned, socially oriented economy is the way to Russia's prosperity and power in the military sphere ... And the restoration of the Russian military-industrial complex. ..,
          1. PROXOR
            PROXOR 28 November 2012 17: 51
            +2
            bask,
            I will answer that fundamentally wrong statement about the planned economy. As I wrote to another opponent. Then either the entire planned economy in Russia or not at all. PLAYERS OF THE MARKET SECTOR will send all PLANNED ECONOMIC players if they demand the provision of services and raw materials at prices that will be lower than those in a market economy.
            Plus, for the planned economy to work, a whole ministry will again be needed, the costs of which could help in the areas of health, education, social, military, finally (purchase of weapons, military personnel) IT IS ENOUGH TO MAKE LEech ON THE BODY OF THE COUNTRY !!!!
          2. rolik
            rolik 29 November 2012 01: 01
            +1
            bask Alas, that’s for sure. I have already written a letter to a sales company about the transfer of two enterprises to two zone mode according to meters. They will already know the tariffs in December, and the letter must be written at least one month before the introduction of new tariffs. Otherwise, you will pay at the daily rate. At that pace, soon again the 17th year will be. In society, steam pressure is already approaching the maximum. And if the authorities do not see this, they will be reminded of it with dubai and hornets.
    7. prunx
      prunx 28 November 2012 18: 12
      0
      Quote: vladimirZ
      The President and the Chairman of the Government, that is to say, the "Prime Minister", needs to manage the public sector of the economy, incl. defense industry, restoring the State Planning Commission and Soviet methods of economic management in the public sector, and not to carry out "direct intervention of Vladimir Putin

      Do not write nonsense, in the current realities this is not possible, and there is no need. Gosplan is a very crude economic instrument. I think it is necessary, all the same, to combine the plan with market mechanisms, because the State Planning Commission does not provide for a demand response from the consumer, which leads to inefficient energy and labor-intensive production. Of course, the Gosplan somehow provided for the needs, but with a monstrous cost overrun. I know that you say, say, why this market was needed in the USSR, if in the first place there was a man, and not profit !? I agree. But what fell, then disappeared, did not save. Now is another era, you need to learn how to live in existing realities.
      1. Strategia
        Strategia 29 November 2012 17: 58
        0
        It is not worth bending under a changing world ...
    8. SenyaYa
      SenyaYa 29 November 2012 19: 47
      -1
      Well, now everything is clear !! And I thought why at the NISSAN and TOYOTA factories, the quality of the products and the pace of production are high! NEVER GOT THE PLAN AND SOVIET MANAGEMENT METHODS !! Hell, these Japs only thanks to the super minds of the USSR, such production was established))) Do any of you know what PLANNING, ORGANIZATION, MOTIVATION, CONTROL is?
      Oh yes, we begin to poke minus signs together))
  2. aktanir
    aktanir 28 November 2012 07: 59
    0
    The reasons for the inflated prices are banal to impossible. When industrialists heard about tens of trillions allocated for the defense industry, everyone, without exception, wanted to warm their hands on this. The concept of "Motherland" has depreciated long ago, no one wants to think about the sacred duty of protecting it, one's shirt, as they say, is closer to the body. And what is their homeland? They steal from the state at the expense of selling it a low-quality product, for example, a satellite, which will subsequently fail at the start, and then, having full pockets, they will be ready with a pure soul to dump from the country to some Courchevel or London.
    At an expensive price is not the final product, but literally every penny screw of which it consists.
    The reason is the leaders of the military-industrial complex, middle and lower managers who are responsible in assessing their invaluable work. Everyone needs jeeps, mansions, summer residences, holidays in the USA, etc. The country's leadership is involved in this. The fish rots from the head.
  3. patriot2
    patriot2 28 November 2012 08: 08
    +2
    I would very much like for the joint commissions of the Defense Ministry, the Investigative Committee and the Ministry of Defense to visit each of the defense industry enterprises and figure out what the price of each product is made up of. I think that without discovering America, we would have found a lot of streams on which money flows in the wrong direction.
    1. Ustin
      Ustin 28 November 2012 09: 16
      +4
      You might think that such commissions do not exist, they got it already by inspections! And especially in the field of public defense. Profitability at assembly plants is really not higher than 5-7%. And energy, metal, price pickers rise with enviable regularity. We destroyed the Gosplan system, and alas, it is still impossible to propose and create a new one, no matter how many beautiful words are spoken and structures are not created. The task is difficult taking into account different forms of ownership, but if we do not solve it, then the effect of allocating these amounts will be minimal.
      1. Consmo
        Consmo 28 November 2012 10: 00
        +7
        Come on, the profitability of a woman is tricky. You can include in the production costs of any football players, pools for leadership with girls. Mistresses as consultants. maintenance of real estate abroad (such as a representative office).
        As well as electricity and workshops that are actually rented out.
        I worked at a small factory Chih pih processed metal. Machine tools painting fitter, as usual. With each piece of iron, they had 100 percent. And if something is not standard for stadiums, concert halls and so on. The foam was from 500 percent and above. Record 800%. Moreover, no one twisted their hands. go buy such a thing. For a hedgehog rub is 2-3 times more expensive anyway. and deadlines.
        And war is generally honey.
        There is billions of dollars, and the numbers are from the ceiling.
        1. military
          military 28 November 2012 14: 59
          0
          Quote: Konsmo
          Come on, the profitability of a woman is tricky. You can include in the production costs of any football players, pools for leadership with girls. Mistresses as consultants. maintenance of real estate abroad (such as a representative office). And also electricity and workshops that are actually rented out. I worked at a small factory.

          if you were even a little in the topic of handdocks, according to which the military representatives checked the planned and accounting estimates, agreed on the overhead costs of the defense industry enterprises and issued relevant conclusions, you would not have made such peremptory statements ... wink
          to write off something like that to the cost of the state defense order and to the consumer goods of a small "sneeze-puff-factory" is by no means quite the same thing ... No. believe the ex-military representative with 20 years of experience ... feel drinks
    2. rolik
      rolik 28 November 2012 14: 10
      +1
      Accounts Chamber, led by Stepashin sent there. They will be very interested to see what is happening there.
  4. itr
    itr 28 November 2012 08: 11
    +2
    Nice to look at the Minister of Defense in uniform
    Judging by it, he will pass the standard in physical training
    1. Monge
      Monge 28 November 2012 09: 37
      +1
      Yes, brave general! Deserved! The shape is like a glove! When I saw the photo, I remembered modern Cossacks with sabers and medals.
      1. Manager
        Manager 28 November 2012 10: 04
        +12
        Quote: Monge
        When I saw the photo, I remembered modern Cossacks with sabers and medals.


        These clown mummers? I saw one in the subway today. All in orders on medals. Shoulder straps general ... I wonder what and where he deserved it all .....
        Clowns I want to spit in my face. They have been walking around Moscow since yesterday, and who do not look at half a kilo of medals and the title is not lower than a colonel! Looking disgusting!
        1. kotdavin4i
          kotdavin4i 28 November 2012 11: 02
          +6
          Quote: Manager
          All in orders on medals.

          There was one demotivator (unfortunately I can't find) a photo of a Cossack with a beard in a burka, with medals - and one was specially enlarged in a separate piece, on the ribbon from the battle award, the "Happy Birthday" medal. These are the "Cossacks" ...
          1. d.gksueyjd
            d.gksueyjd 28 November 2012 12: 10
            +2
            To our great regret, there are now the majority of such "Cossacks"! There are only a few real Cossacks left, and they are already at a very old age. But on the streets there are a lot of mummers, where did they get the medals? There are no jubilee medals in the RF Armed Forces for 20 years, you cannot deserve combat kg!
          2. kotdavin4i
            kotdavin4i 28 November 2012 15: 33
            0


            Here is not quite right, but the extreme right photo of the "Cossack" was shown separately and there is a medal "happy birthday"
        2. Monge
          Monge 28 November 2012 11: 07
          0
          In the photo I see a white rhombus on the minister’s chest. I wonder which military academy he graduated from. Maybe this is a sign for graduating from the Academy of the General Staff?
          1. kotdavin4i
            kotdavin4i 28 November 2012 14: 55
            +2
            Quote: Monge
            and what military academy did he graduate


            Kozhugetovich graduated from the Academy of Civil Defense of the Ministry of Emergencies of the Russian Federation. in principle, it is not military (specialization is different) - but the rhombus is still white, issued at the end.
  5. Igor
    Igor 28 November 2012 08: 17
    +1
    Or maybe they give all the military-industrial complex to the Moscow Region and then let them think in the Moscow Region where to get production capacities, how to buy cheaper equipment, so that then the plant is not in debt, and the workers get a normal salary, determine promising directions for NIKOR?
  6. Sars
    Sars 28 November 2012 08: 36
    +4
    Is it very difficult to check where the "wild" prices come from?
    If the company participates in the defense order, for each product, please be kind - report, set the profit margin legally.
    And there will be no nuts for 800 rubles!
    And who is not satisfied - to nationalize the enterprise.
    1. military
      military 28 November 2012 11: 02
      +2
      Quote: SarS
      Is it very difficult to check where the "wild" prices come from?

      and you flip through (if possible) the NTD of the SRPP system and the "accompanying" GOST V (RV) for metrology, standardization, cataloging and all other "storage", to the procedure for ensuring and conducting tests of weapons and military equipment ... recourse
      It is quite possible that you will understand that when all these requirements (by the way, mandatory) are fulfilled, not all defense products today fit into the price "Wishlist" of our valiant Defense Ministry ... request
      plus price lawlessness in related sectors - energy and raw materials - directly provoked by the state ...
      in the AME market, of course, as well as in a large family - not without a freak ... and there are already a lot of freaks ... but not all those present there have the life credo "c3,14 travel in any way" ... drinks
      1. Sars
        Sars 29 November 2012 13: 42
        0
        Dear, do not frighten "crap", it is not so difficult to calculate the cost part. There would be a desire.
        Our Defense Ministry, of course, is valiant, but when the price of the same object increases at times, but there are no justifications, then questions arise.
        And allies and power engineers should also be put in a well-known position.
        Everything related to the defense industry should be a "sacred cow".
        1. military
          military 30 November 2012 17: 11
          0
          Quote: SarS
          Dear, do not frighten "crap", it is not so difficult to calculate the cost part. There would be a desire.

          and the "paradox" is precisely that with the correct calculation of the cost part (I agree that this is not so difficult to do), i.e. taking into account "everything and everything", the customer often feverishly begins to swallow air and reaches for a bottle of nitroglycerin ... request after which he tells you in plain text that all your calculations, of course, are 100% correct, but today he has only two-thirds of the required amount of financing at his disposal, and he must try to "keep within" the limit allocated to him from above ... request
  7. baskoy
    baskoy 28 November 2012 08: 40
    +7
    They scared the hedgehog (MIC) with his bare ass! The world's second largest arms exporter is unable to modernize production? Yes, they will simply bankrupt everything, since the "pockets" are already full and no one is going to gut them. At the most, they'll be put under house arrest in a villa in Spain or even Florida. THE MARKET and PATRIOTISM are not compatible things by definition!
  8. merkel1961
    merkel1961 28 November 2012 08: 40
    +4
    Only the rejection of liberalism in the economy and government on the Stalinist principle.
    1. Kaa
      Kaa 28 November 2012 11: 38
      +11
      Quote: merkel1961
      rejection of liberalism in the economy and state administration according to the Stalinist principle.

      Under what Stalin began the construction of the armed forces - with industrialization, i.e. construction of the most modern factories and equipment, equipment at that time, because it never occurred to anyone to produce tanks at the factories that produced armored cars in the Republic of Ingushetia. ALL funds from export went for their construction and equipment purchase. And now - I doubt that over the past 20-25 years, something has been updated in the industry. Either purposefully build modern enterprises - or, indeed, it will be necessary to purchase foreign equipment at exorbitant prices. Speaking of capitalism, in Germany Hitler in the same years introduced state control over the largest arms manufacturers - a breakthrough in quality and quantity was ensured ...
      1. SIT
        SIT 29 November 2012 14: 42
        0
        Quote: Kaa
        ALL funds from export went for their construction and equipment purchase.

        All funds, not just from exports, were exhausted in the summer of 1927, and industrialization was just beginning. All modern plants were built on credit money, mainly by the same people who gave loans. The main lender is the United States.
        Quote: Kaa
        Speaking of capitalism, in Germany Hitler in the same years introduced state control over the largest arms manufacturers - a breakthrough in quality and quantity was ensured ...

        Germany took the 2nd place in the world in industrial production as early as 1929 4 years before Hitler came to power. Again with US money. The owners of a controlling stake in the main producer of explosives in Germany were American banks.
  9. sergant89
    sergant89 28 November 2012 08: 41
    +9
    And we will go to the North, and we will go to the North !!! (that is, democracy and a market economy) damn it? In the USSR there was no effective management, it was the standard (and now what is it? It doesn’t exist at all, there was no technology in the USSR, (and now gondoblyadonsky fag Chubais having spent 1ml. , and without personal intervention of the president, nothing happens, and to hell with hundreds of thousands of officials, if they began to put against the wall and not choose a measure of restraint, the contents in the 18-room apartment (Oh my God !!!) without a housemaid, and so everything will change without any bulk, marsh, etc., but clearly with revolutionary underfloor ekoy, I would not want to, but nothing else will change in a different way.
  10. Nickanor
    Nickanor 28 November 2012 08: 43
    +7
    At the enterprise where I work, German equipment from 30s to 40s is periodically found. On the deterioration of the park.
  11. Mavsik
    Mavsik 28 November 2012 08: 44
    +7
    They’ve been falling apart for 20 years, and now they want to get out with simple cash injections - it won’t work! This had to be done in 90 years. And now the berries have begun.
  12. soul
    soul 28 November 2012 08: 52
    +6
    If Chastnik refuses to modernize production from the defense industry, then this production must be nationalized
    1. military
      military 28 November 2012 11: 18
      +5
      Quote: alma
      If Chastnik refuses to modernize production from the defense industry, then this production must be nationalized

      however, the authorities today with enviable persistence are engaged in corporatization and privatization of the remaining FSUEs ... request Along the way, hanging noodles to the layman about the fabulous "income" of the treasury from such machinations ...
      she had long realized that turning a valve on an oil and gas pipe is always more convenient (and more profitable) than it is to bear the burden of responsibility for the effectiveness of state property management ... recourse
  13. common man
    common man 28 November 2012 09: 08
    +4
    But in the 90s they sang to us sweetly that the market economy is the highest stage of development. The market will come, there will be competition, and everything will be "a lot and cheap". And where is IT? This situation is not only in the defense industry, but in the entire national economy. Starting with oil and ending with cucumbers. Nobody wants to work for less than 50% of the profit. Why invest in modernization if you can hire a scourge for soldering a shnyaga. And if anyone wants to, first the banks with interest on the loan will be ripped off, then the tax authorities will finish it off. Also in the defense industry. YOU first take a loan, invest it in the scientific development of the "product", then maybe the Ministry of Defense will deign to conclude a contract with you for 3-5 pieces, you will take a loan again, fulfill the contract and somewhere in a year or so, the Ministry of Defense will pay you on it. So much for the cost.
  14. Consmo
    Consmo 28 November 2012 09: 08
    +10
    It's simple.
    Effective managers, usually top management, commercial, general, financial director ,. Less commonly, a purchasing manager. They create a company "Hooves to the Motherland", for example, buy paint. "Hooves" buy paint from the biggest seller. They throw in 20-2000% and sell them to their native plant. Naturally, from the top of the team to buy it in this company. The hooves sometimes do not even transport the paint themselves in their cars. It is enough to issue paper. Invoice and bargaining 12 invoice. A man drives the car and delivers products on behalf of "Kopyt". All owners of "Kopyt" drink Shompanskoe in chocolate. In the company "Hooves", a computer, a secretary and a child (usually a young relative of one of the leaders) take them on pieces of paper. Using this scheme, you can insert into production everything from hardware to special (expensive) steels. Moreover, at all stages of production.
    According to this scheme, even private enterprises are brought to bankruptcy if the owner does not monitor production and procurement.
    I had to see how the procurement manager sat on his compass and drank blood (through his own) to the victorious end of his main job.
  15. webdog
    webdog 28 November 2012 09: 12
    +4
    apparently, having spent several million rubles and thus paying for the work of professional economists, you can get a complete picture of what is happening in the military-industrial complex within 1-2 months. at least in critical industries ...
    and all those who deliberately inflate prices to pass the antitrust company. ensure that they are impacted by the EXISTING monopoly law.
    There is no need to invent anything new. everything has been invented for a long time and our managers who have received their managerial education from the capitalists are well aware of how a financial check and an economic analysis are done.
    it is much less technological than developing a new, unparalleled aircraft.
    this vicious monopolistic connection should be broken.
    in any large business there are unspoken agreements on the price of products.
    and the military-industrial complex is now a very large fish)))
    prices rose not by interest, but by enemies! what else can I talk about?
    All the same, it is necessary to nationalize enterprises for the duration of the defense order, and then they can be sold at a more expensive price. It will be cheaper than always paying 5 times more expensive for products!
    just have to count the money ...
    I think so.
    1. Consmo
      Consmo 28 November 2012 09: 41
      +8
      All this is good. Only Oboronservis is also a state. company.
      So what? Hired managers pull away even faster, without control.
      You need to create some sort of catalog of manufacturers-sellers. With data, who is the boss. Partially solve the problem.
      Although the tax information is there and you can break through any company on the Internet.
      There would be a desire.
      And so stupidly, Previously, by the way (OBKHSS) was engaged, It is necessary to take estimates and look down the chain. I got caught with confiscation for 5 years automatically.
      In general, the frontal place must again be dragged to the center of Red Square.
      Otherwise, they’re not afraid of anything.
      1. Eugene
        Eugene 28 November 2012 16: 41
        -1
        Good day to all! In vain you roll a barrel on managers. That got a managerial education, etc., etc. I do not agree.
        Stealing - thieves! And as a rule, they are aged 40 and above (usually 50 and above). If you see a young successful businessman, then behind his back is a dad (with a certain mentality, knowledge and connections). And accordingly, the conclusion suggests itself: that the generation of other years and with a different education is basically spoiled.
        And managers (in translation - managers) have a completely different approach and teach them differently. As you probably would like to, namely, how to develop production, the service sector, the financial sector and increase the value of one share of that enterprise or organization that you manage.
  16. Irkutsk
    Irkutsk 28 November 2012 09: 19
    -2
    I heard from the cadre military that the reform of the army was overdue, but it was not possible to carry it out to the army minister; a man who grew up in the armed forces would not have killed him lively. But Serdyukov is deprived of this kind of sentimentality. The right choice, how and with whom he did it, how much he grabbed, as well as the results, is another conversation. So the current minister is not quite army. What say staffing?
    1. Consmo
      Consmo 28 November 2012 09: 45
      +2
      There are only pensioners from the staff.
      And then someone smart said. The reform of the army is too complicated to entrust it to the military.
      If all sorts of eccentrics had not been invented, threaded trunks, propellers, now warriors would still ride with bows.
      1. Irkutsk
        Irkutsk 28 November 2012 09: 55
        +2
        Well, firstly Talleyrand said that WAR is too serious a matter to trust its military, and secondly there are no former military men, especially pensioners - people endowed with experience and wisdom. And about the progress - I would not want to live as a gathering spending the night in a cave.
      2. Abel
        Abel 28 November 2012 12: 17
        +4
        And who said that that smart was very smart? Well, the army has not been lucky lately with the leaders .. it doesn’t depend on the fighters. Wrong people, they are everywhere, just in the army they are more noticeable. The warriors would just choose a worthy one, and who will let them appoint one? Mostly parquet people are admitted to top management ... But smart wise heads are dangerous ..
    2. Ghenxnumx
      Ghenxnumx 28 November 2012 15: 24
      +2
      Quote: Irkutsk
      What say staffing?

      Maybe. I’ll say one thing for sure - a person carrying out reforms, in addition to common sense, should to be endowed with patriotism, and not a desire to "consider money as centners"
  17. AlexVas44
    AlexVas44 28 November 2012 09: 46
    +3
    In my opinion, the answer is already in the article: "... It is extremely undesirable for many industrialists to buy new equipment .... to part with profits and invest this very profit in the development of enterprises is not always desirable. : we use earnings now, and then come what may ... "
    The banal greed and eagerness of those who are called oligarchs and the elite. Once they work for the state order, especially defense, then they take the sovereign under their control - every penny counts!
  18. Bigriver
    Bigriver 28 November 2012 09: 48
    +2
    If suddenly after such an offensive Shoigu-Medvedev, prices suddenly climb down, then this will mean that the matter nevertheless consisted in the banal desire of interested persons in the military-industrial complex to tighten their pockets with budget money (in reserve, as they say).

    Yes, it seems, a year ago we passed it when Mr. Makarov impressed the Duma with his comparative analysis of our tanks, MLRS and foreign ones.
    This, too, was perceived by many as pressure on our defense industry. Type: if you aren’t .., you sons of bitches, then we will buy Leopards.
    And what? Yes, nothing, the prices are there.
    Otseda variation: either our leaders of the defense industry are white and fluffy, or - they have nerves of iron :))
    1. sniper
      sniper 29 November 2012 22: 35
      +1
      Quote: BigRiver
      either our leaders of the defense industry are white and fluffy, or - they have iron nerves :))
      Most likely, those who collect are white and fluffy, and those who twist their hands with inflated prices for components are sure that they are under too high a roof. that are in complete safety ...
  19. PROXOR
    PROXOR 28 November 2012 10: 02
    +8
    The greyhounds of our entrepreneurs and top managers are already well known. They are now stupidly squeezing money out of enterprises and want to fulfill with minimum costs and at brutally high prices that they can and bankrupt everything. Nationalization will not help. You can not keep the system in the system, because it will not be corny contact. Here another variant of development of events will be seen. The idea is akin to a foreign auto industry:
    1) to allocate all research institutes and scientific and technical departments beyond the framework of production, in a separate article.
    2) Give preferences to foreign companies that are ready to come to our market and build a production plant. We still do not have a shipyard for the construction of large vessels.
    Then there will be fierce competition. There is no point in fearing a technology leak. I think even now technologies with our sales managers and research institutes are constantly leaking.
    "COCK BIRD Proud - Until you carry it, it will not fly"
  20. Oleleg
    Oleleg 28 November 2012 10: 17
    -2
    Author, why don’t you finish, because everyone knows the truth ?! While the military-industrial complex is under the control of an official, nothing will change. Why should an official upgrade an enterprise? Why? He is doing well! Only a private investor will be interested in modernization and development since he risks his money, and the official is budgetary. While the military-industrial complex is in the hands of the state there will only be degradation. The worst thing is that it cannot go on like this for a long time, the backlog is growing like a snowball, imagine what these plants will look like in 15 years?
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 28 November 2012 10: 58
      +5
      Oleleg
      While the military-industrial complex is under the control of an official, nothing will change. Only a private investor will be interested in modernization and development ...

      As grandfather Lenin said: formally true, but in essence - mockery :)
      Where will you find a private investor who, for example .., invested in the Amur Shipyard?
      Mechanical engineering is a very "long" and very risky money. Plus, there are all sorts of restrictions on investment in strategic industries.
      1. dmb
        dmb 28 November 2012 11: 33
        +4
        Have you significantly modernized the power industry or oil production? Housing and communal services have also been modernizing for many years. Something has changed? For modernizers, of course. Chubais left for nanotechnology, and a number of modernizers went to London. Just don't blame everything on officials. for they and the oligarchs are one and the same. You can blame the obscurantists for greed 300 times, but we should not forget who raises energy prices in a resource-producing country. You can, of course, follow the path of the "effective manager" Taburetkin, who offered the obscene to abandon social services, But who will work, the managers of Sberbank. or Serdyukovskie b .... You don't drive them to factories with a stick, and if you drive them, then nothing will work out either, because they can't do anything to poke a finger into the keyboard.
        1. Yeti
          Yeti 28 November 2012 20: 57
          +2
          Quote: dmb
          for the stern of poking a finger into the keyboard they do not know how

          Able and something else! And how they can! wassat

          Quote: dmb
          for the stern of poking a finger into the keyboard they do not know how

          Able and something else! And how they can! wassat

          Quote: dmb
          for the stern of poking a finger into the keyboard they can do nothing.

          Able !!! And how they can !!! Do not come off! Serdyukov witness. wassat
          1. Strategia
            Strategia 29 November 2012 18: 02
            0
            He should go from the category of witnesses to the category of accused am
    2. Abel
      Abel 5 December 2012 10: 12
      0
      And the thing is that the so-called. "private investors" in Russia got almost everything (factories, enterprises, etc.) as a GIFT. And their goal is not to improve and develop, but to snatch until it is completely worn out. Well, they don't know how to make money, they only know how to cut !!! In business, they are not professionals with an engineering or other special education, but those who had easy money in their time ... I don't even know what to call these people ... well, in general, those who were "stronger" at that time. So that...
  21. Shkodnik65
    Shkodnik65 28 November 2012 10: 27
    +7
    I work at one of the enterprises of the military-industrial complex, and a joint-stock company. When, after graduating from vocational school with a degree in universal turner, he left to serve in the army and did not expect that in 30 years, returning to the plant in dark, cold workshops, I would see the same 16K20 lathes as in my youth. To be honest, I was shocked. There is practically NO development, purchase of modern equipment, improvement of the material and technical base. The same "hard workers" in dirty overalls, rush work and assault. Metals, paints, etc. try to buy cheaper (there is no talk about conditionality) in order to sell them at a higher price. They buy machines and equipment only when there is nowhere to go. And the most important thing: ANYONE DOES NOT NEED ANYTHING. From a locksmith to ... Just fill your pocket, as you can. What do you think is the quality of the products? But she goes to the troops.
    I don’t know what will happen next, but I’m sure of one thing: such an economy has no future. Sadly colleagues.
  22. Strashila
    Strashila 28 November 2012 10: 48
    +3
    Only the cost of energy carriers during this period has increased by a factor of one time ... well, and then on the list of housing and communal services ... transport ... food ... oh yes the metal is not cheaper ... taxes ... these enterprises, in contrast from migrants in the markets (where budget money usually flows away) and gastrikas are paid on time and that’s all ... without deferrals and concessions. The question is different ... our bureaucrats are willing to pay the world price for any foreign Deribas ... but their ... not when.
  23. Edya
    Edya 28 November 2012 11: 12
    +1
    In order to fight against the corruption, it was necessary to create a special phenans comet at the FSB ... And for the theft of money from the treasury, it should be turned to treason and planted a couple of dozen clerks who steal for life and then steal it will stop idle psychology
    1. Bigriver
      Bigriver 28 November 2012 11: 19
      +2
      Edya
      In order to combat the corruption, it was necessary to create a special phenans comet at the FSB ...

      Complex and large-scale problems do not have simple solutions.
      In coming up with some unique and super-authorized add-in, we run the risk of simply embedding it in a corruption system.
      A couple of dozen can sit down, for reporting. And the system will remain.
      1. rapid1934
        rapid1934 29 November 2012 21: 17
        0
        Only in one case will there be any sense if these special committees are staffed with aliens! hi
    2. kostello2004
      kostello2004 28 November 2012 13: 44
      -2
      you are such a psychologist straight. It's good that YOU are a turner. Probably a writer, not a reader, otherwise before you write something like that, maybe this has already been implemented somewhere, but it doesn’t help at all?
      1. Bigriver
        Bigriver 28 November 2012 14: 57
        +1
        Costello2004

        Have you come to paint portraits of imaginary interlocutors and discuss their personal characteristics?
        And in the case you have nothing to say?
    3. Hon
      Hon 28 November 2012 14: 30
      -1
      Such a committee already exists, it is a very rich committee)))
  24. Boris55
    Boris55 28 November 2012 11: 52
    +1
    Maybe not quite out of place, but I thought it was interesting: "Posner. Interview with Dmitry Rogozin (25.11.2012)"

  25. Forget
    Forget 28 November 2012 11: 54
    0
    If you want industry to be restored, industrialization carried out, you must vote either for the Communists, or for the Liberal Democratic Party, or at least for spravaross. In all honesty, we all see that the Edros do not want to work, and Putin, with all his undoubted great merits, also, to put it mildly, becomes a lazy person ....
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 28 November 2012 12: 10
      -5
      ... and Putin ... to put it mildly, becomes a bummer ...


      Did you draw such conclusions on the basis of the ongoing fight against corruption?
      Look at all the same interview with Pozner Rogozin ... There and about industry and corruption ... (above)
      1. military
        military 28 November 2012 12: 31
        +4
        Quote: Boris55
        Did you draw such conclusions on the basis of the ongoing fight against corruption?

        so far this struggle has the appearance of a hastily inflated advertising campaign ... request
        and 12 years of his passive "preparation" for this campaign is also suggestive ... recourse
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 28 November 2012 13: 11
          0
          In 2000, there were completely different tasks. What Putin himself says about this:



          To refresh memory:

  26. rennim
    rennim 28 November 2012 12: 01
    +7
    No intervention of private capital in the military-industrial complex as a recovery will bring anything. Moreover, foreign business will only invest money until it is 100% sure that it will make a profit ... And our military-industrial complex has an order today ... tomorrow who knows ... (We live in Russia). management and control will save the day. The equipment is of course worn out ... the capitalists have squeezed everything out of it. They did not hurt themselves and do not offend themselves. That is why such wild prices. Until the state takes control ... including the income of state officials ... nothing will move and will not change. Where does the country's leadership look if the heads of enterprises and their "top managers" receive monthly remunerations (in one person) in amounts equivalent to the salary of an entire workshop ... What are the low prices for the purchase of military equipment ...
    1. PROXOR
      PROXOR 28 November 2012 14: 08
      -1
      rennim,
      Excuse me, but this is the same as developing a planned economy in a market environment. If the whole economy is based on market relations, then interference in the activities of defense industry enterprises will be negative. Our country had the experience of a planned economy, the result - we lagged behind in computers, some types of materials, communications and in other areas. As soon as the border became open for private companies to supply products to Russia, our industry died! Therefore, I say nationalization of the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation NO NO and NO again !!!! There are many examples in a world where companies exist without state support. Take the same Lockheed or Boeing. The companies are completely private, the state intervenes at the moment when the company presents a preliminary design of the future product for the needs of the Air Force or Navy. From this moment, the product is the property of the state and it also has its own decent percentage from the sale of these weapons to other countries.
      In our country, only healthy competition makes us move forward. And since our top managers of our companies really like to agree among themselves (remembered the oil and gas industry), it will be problematic to agree with foreign counterparties. And why, the factories will produce different products and only in rare cases, if one enterprise does not have time, will the second help.
      1. prunx
        prunx 28 November 2012 18: 25
        0
        Quote: PROXOR
        Our country had the experience of a planned economy, the result - we lagged behind in computers, some types of materials, communications and in other areas.

        Why are you talking about what you have no idea. The USSR did not lag behind in any of the areas you listed, with the exception of economic profitability.
        1. PROXOR
          PROXOR 29 November 2012 09: 43
          +1
          prunx, I advise you to carefully familiarize yourself with the control systems of the same Shuttle and Buran. In 1985, the USSR was a leader in electronics based on standard transistors, but the world had already taken the path of chips !!! You can shout as much as you like that we were leaders, but this is not so.
          Also study foreign economic purchases from 1980 to 1989. There is such a little remarkable fact: that would bring to mind the famous T-80 tank with its revolutionary gas turbine power plant. When the designers faced the problem of the operation of this engine in a highly dusty environment, so as not to gut the engine every time, they bought a Japanese phonendoscope! We want to admit, or do not want to, but fact is a fact. A number of industries have lagged behind. Ohhh, what I'm telling you: TVs of the USSR (even the same ruby ​​with a remote control) and the same Japanese of the same period. Expand and see.
    2. prunx
      prunx 28 November 2012 18: 19
      -1
      Quote: rennim
      No intervention of private capital in the military-industrial complex as a recovery will bring anything.

      Sorry, but you don’t really understand the point. But the bottom line is that without private capital, money - no! Not at all! Of course, you can print them, as they do in the USA, but nobody wants to buy our money, and therefore printing money will lead to additional inflation, and this, in turn, will lead to higher prices.
  27. Boris55
    Boris55 28 November 2012 12: 09
    -1
    Quote: Forget
    and Putin .... to put it mildly becomes a bummer ....

    Did you draw such conclusions on the basis of the ongoing fight against corruption?
    See all the same interview with Pozner Rogozin (above)
  28. Abel
    Abel 28 November 2012 12: 10
    -2
    "... to buy as many units of military equipment as the troops need is impossible purely mathematically. Either you need to reduce the planned amount of equipment for purchases by the state, or force industrialists to cut prices." .... Or reduce the needs of the army by reducing it itself. A little bit left ...
    1. Abel
      Abel 29 November 2012 14: 03
      0
      someone did not understand the irony?
    2. Strategia
      Strategia 29 November 2012 18: 04
      +1
      Quote: Abel
      Either it is necessary to reduce the planned amount of equipment for purchases by the state, or force industrialists to cut prices. "... Or reduce the needs of the army
      ... or the state to lower its rating on the world stage ...
  29. vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 28 November 2012 12: 20
    +2
    An interesting position in Russia at all prices is rising at a premium, and only the military-industrial complex should be able to work at cost
    1. prunx
      prunx 28 November 2012 18: 48
      +1
      Quote: vladsolo56
      An interesting position in Russia at all prices is rising at a premium, and only the military-industrial complex should be able to work at cost

      Not certainly in that way. Our prices are rising in line with inflation or a little more, and this, roughly speaking, is 8-11% per year, while in the military-industrial complex prices have risen 3-5 times over the 3-4 years that have passed since approval 2020 strategy, when prices were fully agreed. Just when the time came to fulfill obligations, the military-industrial complex said: and pay five times more! And the most interesting thing is that the military-industrial complex cannot objectively, transparently from an economic point of view substantiate such a significant increase in prices.
  30. kostello2004
    kostello2004 28 November 2012 13: 32
    -2
    Just awful! Now, for sure, our guys will run in pots and belugas, footcloths, on tin cans like T-90 and melon. There is nothing new revolutionary, innovative, just modernization and once again deep modernization, we have always, deeply modernized a penny right up to seven, people hawala for the time being, and quit. But what about the warriors? Half of them, by definition, have no brain, for no reason, they are all conservatives, more tanks are cooler than eggs. They put some kind of ambition and do not understand the facts. Like we can, but the United States and others, no. We have everything the same, while others only have ads. And who will face the truth? Allow the defense industry to work for themselves, even though they will push their buckets to the banana republics, due to this, modernization will probably begin. And then I look here they are sitting, they remember the USSR, they say power and all that. What power? One buried the aircraft, practically a rocket launcher. Another Afghan unleashed, the rest dry themselves lay there. And everyone hoarse shout Kalash is a thing, footcloths is a thing, t-90 is a thing. Yes, a thing like a pen, a gum, a condom, and not a complex technique that inspires respect. Where are those who will move the military-industrial complex? I think in vain Serdyukov expelled he even thought progressively. And not the USSR categories, but the fact that the warriors did not like him, because they always cry when something goes differently.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 28 November 2012 17: 37
      -1
      Quote: kostello2004
      I think in vain Serdyukov expelled he even thought progressively.

      And I thought you were a fool!
    2. prunx
      prunx 28 November 2012 18: 56
      -3
      Quote: kostello2004
      And not the USSR categories, but the fact that the warriors did not like him, because they always cry when something goes differently.

      I support. The warriors have become outrageous to us! Straight, consider themselves the highest caste.
  31. survivor
    survivor 28 November 2012 13: 41
    0
    Well, it’s not for nothing that the military-industrial complex has always been under state control. Yes, in wartime the cooperatives were given the production of equipment and weapons, but quality flaws were replaced by quantity. now there are no TECH artels. there is a private trader who doesn’t have any quality at all, they take in quantity, trying to squeeze out of what is last. they steal everything! starting from the turner and ending with the directors. no one shells out for the modernization of production. today is important. how much they get today, and then all right, tomorrow will be tomorrow. and it’s not about Putin, the fact is that the whole system was debugged for a long time precisely for collapse. I work at the third recreation center (((. each of them was successfully ruined and sold. They usually fired not because they worked badly, but because they tried to prevent them. They even beat me. Everything was exported, from equipment to boards. It is delivered for resale only that it’s not possible to raise it later. and everywhere !!! no one needs horseradish, just a moment!
    1. kostello2004
      kostello2004 28 November 2012 13: 52
      0
      you live in this minute, what will happen next? but at least that, the main thing is that I (you) live well and well now.
    2. survivor
      survivor 28 November 2012 19: 48
      0
      and what did I say wrong? Is there no theft? while the theft of not only the elite, but of all segments of the population! we ourselves have put ourselves in a situation where the law is replaced by thieves' concepts. this is a very disturbing symptom. that no one ever gave bribes? No, not even millions of kickbacks, but bribes. the same traffic cops, or the same cops? ah ah, what all of us are law-abiding and principled! Corruption must first be killed in itself, and only then throw stones at others! Naziolization, without destroying the corruption principle, will not lead to anything good. If there were owners, the state will become, but this does not mean that the money allocated for reconstruction will not be cut. what a habit to minus.
  32. lotus04
    lotus04 28 November 2012 13: 53
    +6
    The change of the Russian Minister of Defense was seen only as a salvation of the State Defense Order, which Anatoly Serdyukov could not realize in any way over the years of his work. It seemed that it was only necessary to give him a strong economic assistant or to replace the minister himself with the economic manager, as the situation would move from a dead point.


    And you friends don’t sit down, you’re not good at musicians!
    (Krylov I.A.)
  33. JonnyT
    JonnyT 28 November 2012 14: 04
    +1
    Drive everyone to hell! For ..... bali !!!! Brew porridge now can’t disentangle !!!!! I did not vote for it !!!!!!!
  34. gen.meleshkin
    gen.meleshkin 28 November 2012 14: 53
    +3
    NDO to control the cost estimates of each manufacturer's factory involved in the manufacture of products. Excess costs to exclude the power of Rogozin. Directors are forced to work at minimal cost or to disperse.
    1. military
      military 28 November 2012 16: 30
      -1
      Quote: gen.meleshkin
      Excess costs to exclude the power of Rogozin.

      I remembered a phrase from a movie with D. Lundgren ... "- By the Power of the Gray Skull-ah! ..." laughing
      This "skull" does not have any real power today, believe me ... request drinks
  35. wild cat
    wild cat 28 November 2012 15: 06
    +4
    Weighted article. Our current military-industrial complex is no longer the same; everything has been set up only to cut money and preferably more. Working with one civilian production plant, I came across 900% of the overhead. And this is considered the norm with them. Because a military man. and do not hide it.
  36. patriot2
    patriot2 28 November 2012 16: 32
    +3
    In China, corrupt people break up quickly, the court and the execution on TV show. Their defense is developing, and not bending like ours. What's the matter? Why do they succeed, but we do not? The answer to these questions should be given by our dear rulers of the country! And the faster, the better for Russia! smile
    1. bask
      bask 28 November 2012 16: 39
      +3
      patriot in China who is in power? Communists, and we have liberals. That’s the difference. That’s why they get it and we have it ...
      1. prunx
        prunx 28 November 2012 19: 00
        -2
        Quote: patriot2
        In China, corrupt people break up quickly, the court and the execution on TV show. Their defense is developing, and not bending like ours. What's the matter? Why do they succeed, but we do not? The answer to these questions should be given by our dear rulers of the country! And the faster, the better for Russia!

        Nonsense, it is not developing because of executions, but because it is much more profitable to produce in China than in other countries, and therefore investments from all over the world flow there, and not only money, but also advanced technologies. That's all the Chinese economic "miracle".
  37. prunx
    prunx 28 November 2012 17: 37
    -1
    Great article! An excellent overview that allows you to look at the problems from a broader angle, allowing you to understand the essence of the problem for local leavened patriots like vaf "s. education, then in practice it turns out that many schools and universities trained specialists whose skills have long been outdated and are not used, because thousands of avalanches of tanks no longer exist, and tank throws to the English Channel are unlikely to be used. military educational institutions go not to the army, but to civilian life, and those who actually do come to the army can apply their knowledge only after retraining, which is not cheap.It turns out that the Ministry of Defense maintains schools and universities, which are very budget and sense from them is not high.So what would be done in such a situation, hurray-s in Serdyukov's place, given that the budget is not rubber, and when you remember the defense order you have a cold sweat on your forehead in speaks out !?
  38. prunx
    prunx 28 November 2012 19: 03
    -1
    Quote: bask
    patriot in China who is in power? Communists, and we have liberals. That’s the difference. That’s why they get it and we have it ...

    You impressed me with the depth of your analytical knowledge of the topic. http://vk.com/video150395152_163373564
  39. Strategia
    Strategia 28 November 2012 20: 45
    +1
    Regrettably, it turns out to be a vicious circle. And to break this circle is Vitally NECESSARY FOR RUSSIA. It will hurt someone, but you can’t do without it. This situation was created by the economic policies of the 1990s, when there was only one criterion for success - personal profit. In principle, it has survived to the present day, but now, as we see, inconsistencies and gaps began to appear, and they will grow in progression. The gap between the interests of the oligarchs and the poorest layers is huge and it is also growing. There are three components: the people, the oligarchs, the state. These are the three points at which a closed ring can break.
    1. The gap at the point "people" will lead to a sharp impoverishment with possible social explosions. However, this abscess can be neutralized by attracting cheap labor (like "Tajiks") and reducing the number of the indigenous population, which is being done now.
    2. A gap at the point of "oligarchs" will lead to a drain of capital over the hill, which is now stored there, but then they will need to be won back, possibly in the literal sense of the word. This gap is "pulled" by extracting some sums on a non-permanent basis from the same oligarchs.
    3. A break at the point "state" will lead to the disintegration of this very state, which looms to us in the future. Realizing this, the authorities are "tightening the screws", throwing out patriotic slogans and appeals, creating an "enemy image" in the face of the opposition. They are trying to avoid this gap by strengthening reactionary measures, while the corruption component still takes place.
    How much can Russia hold out in such an unbalanced state? We will not be able to get out on purely market relations - we are trying to integrate into the global economy, where the leading states are much stronger than us in this matter, and they will not allow us to become equal with them. Neither the people nor the oligarchs will be able to go back to the socialist economy. There is only one way out — such as a combined one — for the state to take under its tight control the strategically important areas of the economy: the defense industry with its cooperation, all communications, space, the information environment in that component that ensures the security of the state. And, most importantly, put the LAW at the head of all reforms, before which ALL will be equal - from the president to the ordinary citizen.
    1. SIT
      SIT 29 November 2012 17: 05
      +2
      Quote: Strategia
      There are three components: the people, the oligarchs, the state. These are the three points at which a closed ring can break.

      The best option would be if the state, showing political will, recognizes the results of privatization by robbery and fraud, conducts a process similar to Nuremberg and publicly shows the whole world who it was, starting in 1989 with accounts, financial flows, etc. etc.
      If in this process it is possible to prove the criminal acts, then all overseas assets can be traced, starting from the 90s, and requisition as criminally laundered money. This is necessary in order to create a wide layer of owners in Russia, which will become the middle class, the backbone of any state, instead of a handful of oligarchs by means of real corporatization (and not a Chubais voucher); It is easy to nationalize natural monopolies and, after giving a heap to the WTO, to make the cost of energy carriers within the country several times lower than for the external market. Without this, our products will NEVER be competitive because we are just stupidly colder and the cost of energy supply to production is greater than anywhere else in the world. In such conditions, where we have cities with millionaires with huge industries in the rest of the world, people just do not live.
      1. Strategia
        Strategia 29 November 2012 17: 51
        0
        This is from the point of view of the people. And officials who steal unnecessarily and, of course, the oligarchs will be very, very, very against. So who should show political will and how to stimulate this manifestation of will?
        1. SIT
          SIT 29 November 2012 18: 13
          +1
          If we take historical analogies, then Pinochet, who then, as soon as he does not get votes in a referendum, will voluntarily leave, despite the fact that he believes the people made a mistake without electing him. To carry out the reforms that I voiced, and staying alive with us is possible only by relying on bayonets and correcting the demographic situation between the Kolyma and Indigirka rivers at the expense of saboteurs, thieves, crooks and everyone else who decided to fill their pocket, catching fish in the muddy water of reforms .
          1. Strategia
            Strategia 29 November 2012 19: 44
            0
            It’s not a matter of analogies, but a motive, a stimulus. If anyone had real interest, a way to solve the problem was found b. From the root of our Russian situation and reality we must dance. We are all trying to solve some particular problems, but we need an integrated approach. There will be no economy as a whole, and there will be no defense industry, armed forces, healthcare, and education. There will be no STATE power, corruption, theft in the oligarchic-bureaucratic and deputy milieu will remain, there will be no judicial courts and impartial prosecutors, honest investigators and journalists ... Everything is so ...
      2. terp 50
        terp 50 29 November 2012 19: 14
        0
        Bravo "captain"! So them, on the horns and about between!
  40. stranik72
    stranik72 28 November 2012 21: 05
    -1
    Quote: PROXOR
    There are many examples in a world where companies exist without state support. Take the same Lockheed or Boeing. The companies are completely private, the state intervenes at the moment when the company presents a preliminary design of the future product for the needs of the Air Force or Navy.


    Not really, R&D in the United States on military topics is done at the expense of sovereign money. R&D is set on a competitive basis and is paid by the state according to market standards, and not according to the standards of the Ministry of Defense, as in our country, which often initially turns R&D into a profanation; now they do not want to work for free in Russia either. Yes, it happens when a company offers its own development of MO, but they pay the bills. but in our country they are "unfastened according to the state defense order appointed by the state itself" and they still shout dearly. Under such conditions, we will not create anything worthwhile.
    1. PROXOR
      PROXOR 29 November 2012 09: 49
      0
      stranik72, Dear, I do not limit the only moment the customer entered the project. This can be either at the stage of the technical task, or a ready-made concept with drawings. Another thing is that corporations now prefer to enter projects just at the stage of the technical task.
  41. Mikhail m
    Mikhail m 28 November 2012 21: 20
    +2
    The cost of manufactured equipment now includes the cost of restoring equipment and technology destroyed during the downtime. Is it a secret for anyone that something that doesn't work is inevitably stolen? And the training of specialists and the restoration of lost technology, taking into account increased marriage, has since become free? The need to invest large sums of money here and now is an objective reality, otherwise the country will lose even that little that still remains from the past. If we don’t give the industry the means to restore it, we will always feed foreign producers.
  42. uizik
    uizik 28 November 2012 21: 57
    +4
    If the military-industrial complex cannot work in market conditions, let them work in camps. Otherwise, do not see the result.
    1. SIT
      SIT 29 November 2012 19: 50
      +2
      Quote: uizik
      If the military-industrial complex cannot work in market conditions, let them work in camps. Otherwise, do not see the result

      Yes, at least at the end of the shift every 10th with this equipment you can’t squeeze out anymore. You can drop prices, you can lift up to heaven, but the quality of this will not grow. A part of these trillion that is planned for the purchase of new weapons is needed, to be thrown into the international competition for the supply of turnkey plants. If the old workshops allow you to deploy new production in them. If it’s cheaper to make a new one, then it means giving the old ones to vegetable stores. Wait a little while when the 2nd wave of the crisis rolls over and those wishing to put such plants will be like Tajiks at the Kazan station. And for relatively little money, because crisis and work must be grabbed. And then from these new industries and ask. They will start to break the price, remind you that everything was built not for their money, and you can tear off the cost of everything from them, starting with surveys for the site. Today’s effective managers will never invest a penny in production, because They do not know how and do not know how. Their business is rollback and pocket. Accordingly, to put in new cadres with high salaries, but in the event of a breakdown in the defense order, counterintelligence will work with them using methods far from the Declaration of Human Rights, so that even the grandmother in the garden will not be able to conceal the stolen goods, not to mention Switzerland.
  43. Magadan
    Magadan 29 November 2012 01: 47
    +1
    Either the defense industry, as well as all large-scale industry, will again become 100% state-owned, or tryndets will come to the defense industry itself. Its leaders will put gold toilets, and the equipment as it was in the 50s will remain.
  44. georg737577
    georg737577 29 November 2012 03: 12
    0
    Quote: vladimirZ
    restoring Gosplan and Soviet methods of economic management

    It’s easier to say, having restored SOCIALISM in the country. Only under this condition will the defense industry work to the extent that can ensure the survival of Russia as a state in a changed world. Otherwise, very difficult times await the country, worse than 41 years ...
  45. vlad.1924
    vlad.1924 29 November 2012 14: 45
    +2
    The President of Russia has forbidden "nightmare" business ... Workers on military orders receive a penny, regardless of the value of the military order! And the board of directors of any military enterprise distributes profits into the pockets of top managers and board members. But what about the old economic rules, for example: at least 10% of the profit should be allocated for modernization, at least 5% of the profit should be left for amortization, and so on? And not how! A minuscule salary for workers and engineers, the rest is in their pockets ... they have no plans for the future, they now have to snatch money to transfer to offshores and dump it abroad, that's the whole program ... But at every plant there are decent educated engineers and managers, but for some reason they are not allowed to the "steering wheel" .....
    1. Strategia
      Strategia 29 November 2012 18: 07
      0
      Quote: vlad.1924
      but they are not allowed for some reason to the "steering wheel" .....
      Because the "steering wheel" gives you access to the "trough"!
  46. radar69
    radar69 29 November 2012 18: 19
    0
    Doctor of Sciences, a seller in a furniture store! This is our Kutuzov or Suvorov! How did he appear in the sky of the military leaders of Russia? Answer who knows?
    1. terp 50
      terp 50 29 November 2012 19: 11
      0
      Questions to Bora Yeltsi (e) well, but rather to Chubais
  47. scorpions-s1980
    scorpions-s1980 29 November 2012 20: 43
    0
    Information for consideration - War for the military-industrial complex

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSUKb4ft0vo&feature=plcp
  48. builder74
    builder74 30 November 2012 06: 39
    0
    Need a COMPLETE approach. To work out the whole chain of military production: design, supply of raw materials, production capacities, personnel, cost of resources, acceptance of products; identify existing problems (for example, worn-out and outdated production capacities), develop a solution to these problems (for example, a program for mass re-equipment of plants, and training specialists for money from gold reserves). And this is clear to ANYONE who has encountered the organization of at least some kind of production process. Are there people guiding the state defense order? They do not understand this? So the wrong people! And if managers do not have authority, then questions to the Chief.
    1. Strategia
      Strategia 3 December 2012 07: 26
      0
      Does the customer have money? Or does MO have its own machine? Or did the Moscow Region bankrupt and carry out raider attacks on defense enterprises? First of all, it is necessary to ask Mr. President for the state defense order from himself and those who have warmed his hands, not at the expense of the Moscow Region, to restore the country's defense industry with all its components - production, research, etc. It seems that the country's defense is business MO. No, dear, according to the Constitution of the Russian Federation, the president is the supreme commander in chief, and he is responsible for ensuring the military security of the state, and it is directly to him that the power ministries and departments are directly subordinate. And if anything, they messed up with GOZ in the Moscow Region, then these are private showdowns, episodes, so to speak.
  49. knn54
    knn54 30 November 2012 15: 12
    -1
    Do not forget that in the USSR the "brains" of other republics-associations of the military-industrial complex of the Slavic republics were most of all afraid of our "sworn" friends.
    An interesting biography of Shoigu is from starling stock to army general in the shortest possible time (ready-made material for the book of records). This was not even during the Second World War. As for the purchase of weapons, there is a rollback and no headache