Military Review

T-90MS v. China; Arjuna v. Pakistan — Discussion in the Indian Army

59
Indian High Army Generals Try to Postpone Trials tanks Arjun for the sake of acquiring new Russian T-90MS tanks, sources told Business Standard. The upcoming tests of the Arjun tanks have been postponed to a different time, so that there are no reports in the media about the superiority of these tanks over the T-90, writes famous blogger Ajai Shukla on his blog.


The tests were pushed into the background by the decision of the Directorate of Military Operations of the Ministry of Defense of India, which is closely connected with the chief of staff of the ground forces.

At stake is the possible acquisition of 354 new T-90MS tanks to equip six tank regiments on the border with China. The government wishes to direct these tanks to equip two tank brigades and a shock mountain corps.

T-90MS will complement the fleet of 1657 T-90C and 2414 T-72C, already deployed on the border with Pakistan. At present, the Army has only a total 124 tank "Arjun" with the possible acquisition of another 118 vehicles. But the Army Command denies that the Department “torpedoes” the tests of the “Arjuns”.

Tank "Arjun", developed by the Indian organization of defense research and development DRDO, has already proved its superiority over the T-90 in comparative tests. But the army claims that this 60-ton tank is too heavy to operate in the sands of Punjab and Jammu and Kashmir, and therefore their deployment in the deserts of Rajasthan should be limited. This means that Arjuns can only be equipped with 4-6 tank regiments of 65.

DRDO refutes this logic of the military, stating that "the heavy weight of the Arjun tank is distributed over a greater number of road wheels, as a result of which its share on the ground is lower than that of the T-90." These arguments are confirmed historywhen, during the Indo-Pakistani conflicts, the Pakistani 42-tonne M48 stuck in the soft soil of Punjab, while the 51-tonne "Centurions" of the Indian army moved easily to the battlefield.

The T-90MS is an upgraded version of the T-90С tanks, which India has been purchasing since 2001. It is believed that these tanks are well suited for operation in extremely low temperatures in Ladakh, Sikkim and Arunachala Pradesh. “Arjun”, on the contrary, feels fine at the high temperatures of the Indian plains, where T-90C repeatedly failed. Currently, the T-90C are mass-produced at the heavy engineering plant in Avadi (Chennai). Tanks of the Indian assembly were less reliable than the cars supplied from Russia.

“The deployment of T-90MS on the border with China is justified, but in areas with high temperatures (on the border with Pakistan), Arjun should be given a chance to replace Russian tanks,” said one of the current commanders of the tank corps as an army general.

Six tank regiments on the border with China will be included in two tank brigades deployed in Ladakh and northeast of this state. Both sectors include valleys and plateaus where China can use its tanks. New regiments will protect these areas, as well as provide the potential for a retaliatory strike in the event of a Chinese attack.
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  1. Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 27 November 2012 11: 20
    16
    ... " The highest army generals of India are trying to postpone the testing of Arjun tanks for the sake of acquiring new Russian T-90MS tanks"...

    Correctly think the highest army generals of India. A sober assessment and honesty is a good position.

    ... "T-90MS will complement the fleet of 1657 T-90С»...

    How painful it is to read it ... "1657 T-90C"... they themselves don’t have so much.
    1. tronin.maxim
      tronin.maxim 27 November 2012 12: 42
      +1
      Not all is lost yet! There is no Taburetkin, they have given us a normal general, we are waiting for radical changes!
      1. 53-Sciborskiy
        53-Sciborskiy 27 November 2012 19: 22
        +2
        Arjun is capable of speeds of up to 72 kilometers per hour on the highway and up to 40 kilometers per hour over rough terrain. The tank is equipped with a laser guidance system and night vision devices. The main armament of the tank is represented by an 120-mm rifled gun. In addition, the tank is armed with anti-tank missiles and machine guns of the caliber 12,7 and 7,62 millimeters.

        The T-90 is capable of speeds up to 70 kilometers per hour on the highway and up to 50 kilometers per hour on rough terrain. The tank is equipped with automatic guidance systems, night vision, a laser range finder. The main weapon used is the 125-mm smoothbore gun, which is capable of firing both conventional shells and guided anti-tank missiles. Additional weapons presented machine guns caliber 12,7 and 7,62 millimeter. And what is the Indian tank better?
      2. Rustam
        Rustam 27 November 2012 23: 35
        0
        Not all is lost yet! There is no Taburetkin, they gave us a normal general, we are waiting for radical changes

        ______________
        what, buy a tank at what price ????
        the old version of the T-90A tank for our army cost 110 million rubles, how much will this refinement cost, which should have been done 10 years ago ???
        ours have decided and are waiting for Armata, the previous version of ms is only for export
        although buyers mostly take proven 72 and upgrade them

        richer take abrams and leopards
        Operators T-90 Algeria, India, Turkmenistan

        here on the video training of Algerians on t-90 in Algeria according to our system
    2. aktanir
      aktanir 27 November 2012 13: 23
      +1
      It is very alarming that some kind of Arjun "surpasses our T-90 in a number of indicators", that the T-90 does not always cope with high temperatures, etc. etc.
      I don’t understand, the huge Uralvagonzavod, the richest experience, thousands of workers and hundreds of scientists in different design bureaus are sitting ... Can’t you create a tank that would not be inferior even to the technology of developing countries ????
      1. Fox
        Fox 27 November 2012 13: 56
        +4
        Quote: aktanir
        It is very alarming that some kind of Arjun "surpasses our T-90 in a number of indicators.

        Well, for example, it is superior in mass ...
      2. patsantre
        patsantre 27 November 2012 14: 02
        +1
        Well, the T-90 has already gone 3 ten ... India has a slightly modernized version, but still not very different from the original one. And the arjun tank is new. The T-90MS should be much superior to it, arjun is far from the best tank we can to see ... merkava, leopard, mNXXX1sep, it is precisely the equality of our T-2MS with them that we must hope for.
        1. vagabo
          vagabo 27 November 2012 15: 16
          0
          They themselves admitted that the T-90s produced in India under license are not at all the same as our domestic ones (although there may be more "bells and whistles" in them).
      3. Krilion
        Krilion 27 November 2012 17: 18
        +2
        Quote: aktanir
        I don’t understand, the huge Uralvagonzavod, the richest experience, thousands of workers and hundreds of scientists in different design bureaus are sitting ... Can’t you create a tank that would not be inferior even to the technology of developing countries ????



        are you talking about polymers again? .. don't be so naive .. where did you see the state abandoning the production of its advanced weapons in order to acquire obviously outdated foreign technology? ... anything can be declared, but the situation definitely indicates that that the "superiority" of the Arjuns is greatly exaggerated ...
      4. 53-Sciborskiy
        53-Sciborskiy 27 November 2012 19: 29
        +3
        Why does the T — 90 have a maximum speed of 5 - 10 kilometers per hour less than foreign tanks?
        - And so as not to drape!
      5. kopar
        kopar 30 November 2012 15: 22
        +1
        Thousands of workers — do they have experience? When we did the reactor at our plant (for the first time in 10 years), we went to people’s houses (for the most part, all the welders, fitters and blacksmiths went to work) and asked would transfer experience.
        Hundreds of researchers, especially after the mess of the 90's. When people went to the markets to trade. It’s just that you don’t have to create a scientist. Do you need years to come from here? Now retirees will leave the factories and there will be nobody to work. it’s not torn to the shop. Mostly to managers and offices ..... And what are the latest developments that can be discussed after all of the above?
    3. beech
      beech 27 November 2012 15: 41
      +3
      T-90MS will complement the fleet of 1657 T-90С
      It is painful and bitter to read. As so, they themselves barely have 500 pieces for 20 years, but they ... Many people criticize the USSR. Yes, they lived worse in the USSR, stood in line, but there was free education, free medicine, and most importantly, people were confident in their safety, in their army. The army immediately took the best samples of equipment for itself, so it’s being sawed by 20let and will not be finished in any way + all the military potential remained from the USSR. And now ... lynxes, a wise man with bmd4, satellites are falling, because they cut huge grandmothers they are released under house arrest, now here also t90ms is floating in banana republics, and we have the good old t72, bmp2, bmd1 \ 2 .. .
  2. PLO
    PLO 27 November 2012 11: 26
    +1

    T-90MS will complement the fleet of 1657 T-90С and 2414 Т-72С

    are they really 4000 tanks deployed ?! hard to believe something
    1. Slayer
      Slayer 27 November 2012 11: 46
      +2
      Quote: olp
      are they really 4000 tanks deployed ?! hard to believe something

      And I don’t get amused, they have been armed at a fast pace for quite some time, I remember some kind of military expert said the T-90 is the main tank of India, not ours))
      1. soldat1945
        soldat1945 27 November 2012 12: 18
        +3
        Expert General Ivashov, has been shouting about this for about five years now!
        1. patsantre
          patsantre 27 November 2012 14: 02
          +1
          so he is right)
  3. orkibotu
    orkibotu 27 November 2012 11: 33
    +2
    The statement about the superiority of the Indian tank is, to say the least, not true.
    Our t-90ms has the longest tank arm this is for starters, and has proven its reliability more than once.
    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak 27 November 2012 11: 45
      +3
      The longest arm when using rockets with a launch from a gun. Now tell me, how many such missiles are in standard ammunition?
      1. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 27 November 2012 11: 54
        +4
        Quote: Wedmak
        how many such missiles are in standard ammunition?


        Denis, we had four products in b / c. This is quite enough.
        This is a very expensive toy: with one such shot, used Lada flew out of the barrel. what wink
        1. Wedmak
          Wedmak 27 November 2012 12: 15
          0
          And if necessary, can there be more?
          1. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 27 November 2012 12: 22
            0
            Quote: Wedmak
            can there be more of them?


            Yes, of course.
          2. neri73-r
            neri73-r 27 November 2012 14: 02
            0
            Yes, although the whole b / c force is required, missiles are interchangeable in size with standard shells.
  4. Wedmak
    Wedmak 27 November 2012 11: 34
    +2
    When will we consider new tanks as thousands?
  5. sined0707
    sined0707 27 November 2012 11: 57
    -2
    ear, thanks neighing.
  6. bart74
    bart74 27 November 2012 12: 09
    +5
    Something is hardly believed that the Indian Arjun is better than our T90. Well, I can’t believe it at all.
    1. Retx
      Retx 27 November 2012 12: 16
      +1
      What is the reaction in society when they find out that their own tank is worse than a foreign one? Propaganda is.
  7. vorobey
    vorobey 27 November 2012 12: 16
    +7
    Well, who will call his child unsuccessful? 34 year of development down the drain?

    It's like a nuclear club. own tank school and industry - prestige and a different opinion.
  8. xzWhiteWolf
    xzWhiteWolf 27 November 2012 12: 43
    +1
    For that matter, the T-90MS has been specially upgraded to the conditions of India. The same Kander and stuff. For in Russia they will not buy it, in favor of Almaty the choice fell a long time ago. And the new MS will go to the foreign market. And as you know, India is our main tank market. So the author becomes stupid, because he compares the T-90С with Arjun, and not the new T-90MS, which in fact is partly a new design.
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 27 November 2012 13: 06
      +9
      Quote: xzWhiteWolf
      For that matter, the T-90MS has been specially upgraded to the conditions of India. The same Kander and stuff. For in Russia they will not buy it, in favor of Almaty the choice fell a long time ago. And the new MS will go to the foreign market.


      Vladimir, MS can be useful to us ourselves ...

      Bring to mind Armata and massively put in the troops, replacing the entire motley fleet of military equipment - this is certainly good and right.

      But it will be even better if the T-72 and T-80 withdrawn from the army are not left to rust on the BHVT, but are MODERNIZED to the level of the T-90 MC and “gently” mothballed according to the standards of the USSR Armed Forces.

      This will be a good "reserve" for all occasions ... Ie the ability to upgrade to the MS level is a great mobile resource for years on 15. That would be the boss.
      1. patsantre
        patsantre 27 November 2012 14: 05
        +1
        Quote: Aleks tv
        But it will be even better if the T-72 and T-80 withdrawn from the army are not left to rust on the BHVT, but are MODERNIZED to the level of the T-90 MC and “gently” mothballed according to the standards of the USSR Armed Forces.


        Spend such loot on equipment to be preserved later? Are you serious ??? We can’t upgrade half of the equipment in the ranks, and you propose to modernize canned goods ...
        1. vorobey
          vorobey 27 November 2012 14: 39
          +3
          patsantre,

          Anton, do you think in parts all the cars on the go? 2-3 training in each company. the rest is preserved in storage.
          1. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 27 November 2012 14: 59
            +2
            Vorobey, Sasha, welcome!

            Personally: Happy Holidays !!!

            For your fraternity today I’m sure to knock over a glass of tea. drinks
            1. vorobey
              vorobey 27 November 2012 15: 34
              +3
              thank you tank brother.
        2. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 27 November 2012 14: 57
          +7
          Quote: patsantre
          Spend such a loot on technology, then conserve it? Are you serious ???


          Yes seriously.

          There is such a thing as mobilization resources.
          I can say it differently: if (God forbid!), They’ll break out the equipment that is in service in the active units, what will we fight with? With sticks?

          Mobile resources and mobile training are almost completely destroyed at the moment. It is impossible to win a protracted war without them with a probability of 100%. This is understood by all the military in all countries. This is strategic security. In Soviet times, they did just that: they upgraded old equipment and put it on conservation.

          Yes, it is expensive, but necessary.

          And to upgrade the old T-72 to the level of T-90MS and put them on conservation: this is a more or less acceptable combination of "price-quality". It will be several thousand “instant reserve” vehicles in case of a “big” war.

          And in the current parts - Almaty. Years through 10-15, these first Armats should also be upgraded to the desired level and put on conservation as well, replacing the T-90MS, which were already old by then.

          But only then it will be possible to cut the T-72 and T-80 for scrap, AND NOT BEFORE!

          And then we are now withdrawing completely modern tanks and throwing them to rust at the BHVT ... And there is no Armata yet ... This is a crime.

          And to make a strategic reserve: it is a necessity, they always did. The bicycle has long been invented.

          Yes, I agree, I am a "dreamer" ... to modernize old equipment and preserve it ... when there is no Armata yet and the equipment in the operating units is far from all on the move ... I just write what, in my opinion, needs to be done .. . so I was taught.
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 27 November 2012 15: 33
            +3
            Quote: Aleks tv
            And to upgrade the old T-72 to the level of T-90MS and put them on conservation: this is a more or less acceptable combination of "price-quality". It will be several thousand “instant reserve” vehicles in case of a "big" war. And in the current units - Armata. Years through 10-15, these first Armats should also be upgraded to the desired level and put on conservation as well, replacing the T-90MS, which were already old by then.


            Alex, it's nice that I'm not the only one who thinks so. I hammered this thought to our sophomans in every topic when they start to moan about T90MS.
            1. Aleks tv
              Aleks tv 27 November 2012 15: 42
              +1

              I hammered this thought to our sophomans in every topic when they start to moan about T90MS.

              Let's hope that there are still people in the General Staff and the State Academic Technical University who think the same ...
              1. PLO
                PLO 27 November 2012 17: 05
                0
                Let's hope that there are still people in the General Staff and the State Academic Technical University who think the same ...

                Well, that’s exactly why the T-72 is being upgraded to B2
                so far it is known about three contracts for the modernization of 170 tanks (2008g), 360 tanks (2012g), and 101 tank the next year (but finally to the full B2 mode, before only the LMSs basically changed DZ, and the engines were old 840strong)
          2. patsantre
            patsantre 27 November 2012 16: 51
            0
            I say again, we would have to scrape up money for the re-equipment of what is in service. You are proposing to modernize the reserve, and leave the base with a stick and stone. And what will it be? We will ride the decrepit T-72 and the new T-90MS will be in reserve ?
            1. Aleks tv
              Aleks tv 27 November 2012 17: 41
              +1
              Quote: patsantre
              I say again, we would have to scrape up money for the rearmament of what is in service


              How strange it may not sound, but there is money in the country at the moment.
              Even if you look at the stool with his brigade “wow”: it smells of such sums that you can build an aircraft carrier with an aviation wing. And this, unfortunately, is not a joke.

              Quote: patsantre
              You propose to upgrade the reserve, and leave the base with a stick and a stone. And what will it be? We will ride the decrepit T-72 and will there be brand new T-90MS in the reserve?



              I have not said such a thing, and I will never say such a thing.
              I will try to express my thought again briefly:

              - Into the troops - Armata.
              - To the reserve - T-72 and T-80 upgraded to the “MS” level ...

              So it is CHEAPER and EFFECTIVE you can strengthen the armored fist of the country. Frankly speaking, I am afraid that with the adoption of the Armata, the entire fleet of T-72 and T-80 will be cut (yelling about unification), and "Armata" will be riveted no more than 2000 in 20 years ... So my idea is clearer?

              Regards, Alexey.
              1. Tiger
                Tiger 27 November 2012 19: 48
                0
                Alexei, how many tanks are in reserve now, BMP?
            2. PLO
              PLO 27 November 2012 17: 51
              +1
              . And what will it be? We will ride the decrepit T-72 and will there be new T-90MS in reserve?

              what are you talking about ?
              Do you think that as soon as they launch the armature in a series, then in a couple of years thousands of tanks will be riveted 2500 (now there are so many deployed in the state)?
              tank production will stretch for years on 10 or even more
              and all this time the tankers will ride the old T-72B and B1 and T-80BV
              therefore, now they are upgrading tanks to the B2 level, which in terms of fire power correspond to the T-90MS level, and are second only to armor protection, but then when Armata come to replace them through 10, they will gradually go to the reserve, and will create as Alex correctly noted. TV is a very modern mobility reserve
              IMHO, if over the next years 5 before launching Almaty will have time to upgrade just about 1000 tanks it will be just fine
              1. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 27 November 2012 17: 55
                +1
                Quote: olp
                now upgrade tanks to level B2


                This is wonderful, Oleg! I agree.

                But why is it impossible to immediately “MS” for the RF Armed Forces? This is really a very good modification, albeit a little more expensive!

                Those. Indians "MS" - yes, we will deliver. And we - "Slingshot", take, comrades tankers, shut up and rejoice ...

                Anger boils on this GSh ... We dreamed about such a machine as "MS" at the beginning of the 90, before the war ...
                1. PLO
                  PLO 27 November 2012 17: 58
                  0
                  But why is it impossible to immediately “MS” for the RF Armed Forces? This is really a very good modification, albeit a little more expensive!

                  Well, the MS would certainly be wonderful, but you need to do a new tower for this, and this is much more expensive, as well as KVR + modernization
                  IMHO, T-72Б2 the best option between cost and a dramatic increase in efficiency
                  1. Aleks tv
                    Aleks tv 27 November 2012 18: 05
                    0
                    Quote: olp
                    IMHO, T-72Б2 the best option between cost and a dramatic increase in efficiency


                    Maybe so, I'm a tank builder ...

                    But so to the tanker: I really liked the MC ... I "felt" it ... a well-thought-out machine.

                    It would be a good upgrade ...
                    1. PLO
                      PLO 27 November 2012 18: 09
                      0
                      But so to the tanker: I really liked the MC ... I "felt" it ... a well-thought-out machine.

                      Well, the BMS on the BNUMX is the same as on the MS, with thermal imagers and other sweets in the form of an automatic target tracking
                  2. Kars
                    Kars 27 November 2012 18: 05
                    0
                    Quote: Aleks tv
                    At the beginning of the 90, we dreamed about such a machine as “MS”, before the war ...

                    And do tankmen conscripts deal with the T-90M with a year of service?

                    Upgrading the T-72 to 90M will come no cheaper than building a new tank, and even with the minuses in the form of metal fatigue and the accumulation of defects.

                    Now there are dozens of options for upgrading the T-72 with very high (well, by specifications) data and not very expensive.
                    But the pace of modernization could increase against the background of the amount of money that Russia spends on the army.
                    But Armata asks more and more questions (of course, based on rumors)
                    1. Aleks tv
                      Aleks tv 27 November 2012 18: 13
                      0
                      Quote: Kars
                      And do tankmen conscripts deal with the T-90M with a year of service?


                      No, I already wrote about this. Zampotechs hang in the troops even on simpler models.

                      Quote: Kars
                      Now there are dozens of options for upgrading the T-72


                      But it’s bad that the “tens” ... Again we step on the old rake. We need one, a good and most modern modernization program.

                      Quote: Kars
                      But the pace of modernization could increase against the background of the amount of money that Russia spends on the army.


                      Yes.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 27 November 2012 18: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: Aleks tv
                        this is bad that the "tens" ...

                        Well, I don’t say that they are all Russian. There are Ukrainian, Belarusian, even Kazakhstan - in the photo Slovak.
                    2. PLO
                      PLO 27 November 2012 18: 20
                      +1
                      But the pace of modernization could increase against the background of the amount of money that Russia spends on the army.

                      what you wanted, but what about the 18-12-room apartment for Vasilyeva? request

                      But Armata asks more and more questions (of course, based on rumors)

                      and what plan is the rumor? is it possible in more detail? good or bad?
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 27 November 2012 18: 31
                        0
                        Quote: olp
                        and what plan is the rumor? is it possible in more detail? good or bad?

                        Yes, not very good.
                        for example, mentioning that it will be a stripped-down version of about.NUMX and here there is a bit of discussion.
                        http://topwar.ru/21357-supertank-t-95-pomenyali-na-bronevichki-ot-iveko.html#com
                        ment-id-726789
                        as I understand it, you can put an end to increasing the caliber of the gun.
                      2. PLO
                        PLO 27 November 2012 18: 43
                        0
                        thanks, read
            3. patsantre
              patsantre 27 November 2012 18: 07
              +1
              Quote: Aleks tv
              How strange it may sound, but there is money in the country at the moment. Even if you look at the stool with his brigade “wow”: it smells of such sums that you can build an aircraft carrier with an aircraft wing. And this, unfortunately, is not a joke.


              Yes, this is another question. It’s one thing to make money not afford, but to work, that is. to the defense industry. And quite another thing is to distribute wisely the pennies that we actually have.

              Quote: Aleks tv
              I have not said such a thing, and I will never say such a thing.
              I will try to express my thought again briefly:

              - Into the troops - Armata.
              - To the reserve - T-72 and T-80 upgraded to the “MS” level ...

              So it is CHEAPER and EFFECTIVE you can strengthen the armored fist of the country. Frankly speaking, I am afraid that with the adoption of the Armata, the entire fleet of T-72 and T-80 will be cut (yelling about unification), and "Armata" will be riveted no more than 2000 in 20 years ... So my idea is clearer?


              The problem is that the economy and industry are unlikely to procure the purchase of such a quantity of equipment that only the latest armata was in the troops, and all tanks were modernized in reserve ... it’s more accurate to even say that the economy can pull, but still no money enough if you arm evenly and balancedly, and not focus on tanks. + You also need to consider that not all money will reach its final point) I understood your idea. But we are not living in the USSR now, and the economy is in our country until it shines ...
              Quote: olp
              what are you talking about ?
              Do you think that as soon as they launch the armature in a series, then in a couple of years thousands of tanks will be riveted 2500 (now there are so many deployed in the state)?
              tank production will stretch for years on 10 or even more
              and all this time the tankers will ride the old T-72B and B1 and T-80BV


              Where did I say that? Actually, I understand very well that the production of these same 2500 tanks will stretch, and not for 10 years, but most likely for a longer period. It is good if no more than half of these tanks go for export. Therefore I’m saying that in the current realities it would be a great joy to rearm at least combat vehicles with new ones, and this would be an excellent result. And to have the latest equipment in order and in reserve is like having an 5 AUG, which dreams of many local patriots ...
              1. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 27 November 2012 18: 33
                0
                Anton, we are practically talking about the same thing. smile

                Quote: patsantre
                the economy and industry are unlikely to pull the purchase of such a quantity of equipment that the troops had only the latest armata, and all tanks were modernized in reserve ..


                The simultaneous release of obviously expensive Armat and cheap, but QUALITATIVELY modernized T-72: I do not think that this is a big burden for the economy. And then the displacement of the T-72 for conservation.

                Only so, at least ...
                Well, our country cannot be without a mobile reserve ... This is an undermining of defense capability. And the planned 2500 tanks in the state of the Armed Forces is a drop in the bucket ...
                1. patsantre
                  patsantre 27 November 2012 20: 49
                  0
                  I agree that 2500 tanks will not be enough for a country bordering not only Europe, but also China. Yes, and a reserve is needed. But the question is in money, and not those that have been allocated, but those that have REACHED. Against the background of supplies, in 10 chrysanthemums the future is somehow foggy, in which modern tanks will be in the army and in reserve :)
        3. Tiger
          Tiger 27 November 2012 19: 44
          0
          In Russia, the 62 billionaire with the capital of 282 billion dollars - that’s the means not modernization and rearmament wink
      2. mabuta
        mabuta 27 November 2012 19: 19
        0
        Plyushkin lives in our blood. I myself put in order every spring on good luck: so, throw it out and it (hang up) bl, maybe it will come in handy.? The most interesting thing happens.
    2. xzWhiteWolf
      xzWhiteWolf 3 December 2012 10: 35
      0
      I completely disagree about the modernization. There, in the money of the 2 modernized tanks, they stand like the 1 armata (of course, not pilot ones, but serial ones). And our biggest advantage and at the same time a drawback was the huge number of different tanks in service, and even if there was an 1 model of a tank, then 40 modifications to it. And this is VERY difficult to maintain and so on. We need at least the 1 very efficient tank, which will have simply huge potential for modernization in the future. To bring it every couple of years to the TOP of world tank building.
      This will simplify the training of tankers and maintenance personnel. Build tanks will be easier. According to rumors, the armata will already be on the assembly line in 13, so the models already exist, maybe they are already testing. Well, God help us! As the Serbs say ... God is in heaven, and Russia is on earth.
  • sapulid
    sapulid 27 November 2012 12: 59
    +2
    Let's remember the hype with "Arjun". The project has repeatedly wanted to close altogether. I don't think that after that they were able to qualitatively improve the tank's performance characteristics. Among other things, the T-90 has been in operation for a long time in various modifications, so both its strengths and weaknesses are known. "Ajun" is still a cat in a poke. It will take more than one year to eliminate "childhood diseases". Hence the desire of the generals to be armed with proven equipment is understandable.
  • vorobey
    vorobey 27 November 2012 15: 51
    +4
    Commenting on the situation with the Indian national project for the military-industrial complex, an experienced tanker, candidate of military sciences, a recognized expert in the field of armored vehicles Sergey Suvorov praised Arjun as follows: “The vehicle is very large in size. The lack of dynamic protection is noteworthy. The drive of the turret is made hydraulic, which increases the fire and explosiveness of the tank. In case of damage to the pipelines of the hydraulic system, an aerosol mixture of combustible hydraulic fluid is instantly formed in it. A small spark is enough for an explosion to occur, comparable in consequences to the explosion of an ammunition. Such an incident took place in Iraq when it tore off a tower from one of the latest modifications of the Abrams.

    On the Arjun tank mounted rifled 120-mm gun, the production of which (according to some sources - partial) mastered in India. The beauty of a rifled gun is that it has greater accuracy, but the projectile fired from it has a lower initial flight speed than smooth-bore guns. And this reduces the possibility of armor penetration.

    Manual loading, and separate. This means that a high rate of fire cannot be achieved. Maximum 4-5 rounds per minute with good preparation loader. And he will withstand work at such a pace for no more than 5 minutes of battle. When comparing manual and automatic loading, I always say that this is akin to a person competing with an elevator. A person manages to reach the second floor at the same speed as the elevator, but arrives faster on the tenth elevator. An absolute plus of the tank in terms of mobility is its hydropneumatic suspension. But all its elements are located outside the hull, without protection, which in combat conditions will lead to their rapid damage and failure of the tank. Ergonomics are terrible, even worse than our T-55 and T-62. ”

    Now back to the blog of Shiva Arura. According to his interlocutor, a direct participant in the tests, the military had no particular fears about the technical condition of the Arjun tank, since by the beginning of 2010 the developers still managed to bring the car to an acceptable level of reliability. The use in the design of the best world achievements in the field of the creation of the SLA of armored vehicles allowed to give the tank good combat characteristics.

    According to the test results, the military agreed that Arjun in its current form has the right to exist in the country's armed forces, but it is very limited. The maximum that the army agrees on is to equip two more regiments specially designed for desert operations with machines of this type. And still not ready to consider Arjun as the main tank.

    “For the army, the situation is very clear. We must close this chapter and start another. Call it whatever you like - Arjun Mark-2 or whatever. But the situation should develop, and not stand still, ”the source told the Indian journalist. Thus, in accordance with the opinion formed in the army, DRDO now needs to focus on the project of the main battle tank of the future (FMBT).

    completely here http://qrok.net/30341-duyel-v-pustyne-tar-s-neochevidnym-rezultatom.html
  • harrymur
    harrymur 27 November 2012 16: 44
    0
    "Six tank regiments on the border with China will be incorporated into two tank brigades deployed in Ladakh and northeast of that state. Both sectors include valleys and plateaus over which China can deploy its tanks. New regiments will defend these areas. and will also provide the potential for a retaliatory strike in the event of an attack by China. "- a direct quote from the circular of our General Staff, you can immediately see where their genik studied, in those parts it becomes more and more interesting)), two states with one school of planning))) from Moscow) )
  • nnnnnn
    nnnnnn 27 November 2012 17: 14
    0
    nobody but Indians will buy these tanks
    1. Chicot 1
      Chicot 1 27 November 2012 19: 16
      +1
      For good, even if the Indians did not buy, and all the released "nineties" would go into service with the tank units of the Russian army ...
      1. Kars
        Kars 27 November 2012 19: 30
        0
        Quote: Chicot 1
        For good, even if the Indians did not buy

        Don’t let them buy. Then Pakistan will have to roll out its tank fleet (let it be written that it’s against China, today it’s against China, a week later on the Pakistani border) they will be given vryatli. There is a Chinese Type 2, but China and Pakistan are only temporary allies, so the only real option is Oplot M)))))))
  • KRAVEN333
    KRAVEN333 27 November 2012 20: 25
    +1
    The first t-90s immediately sold to India = (
  • Machingver
    Machingver 28 November 2012 15: 08
    -1
    That is, the T-90 can win in an unfair fight?
  • Duke
    Duke 14 August 2020 17: 45
    0
    As far as I know, comparative tests of Arjuna and T-90 have not been published, it was simply said that Arjun has the best performance, so it's about nothing. Arjun is a rather outdated model, licked off the Leopard-2, since the Germans helped to create it, has an excellent (possibly under a German license) 120 mm cannon and the ability to use excellent armor-piercing shells according to NATO standards, an MSA worked out for this gun, an excellent (possibly German) engine , perhaps that's all. Leopard-2 is a cool tank, but already outdated, as shown by the serious losses of these tanks by the Turks in Syria. But Arjun is not even a Leopard of the latest models, but apparently one of the first, old Leopard-2 models, 30 years ago. At the same time, the latest T-90 models have greatly improved in terms of modernization and protection and control system, the power of the gun and the power of the projectiles, and not only the BPS, but also high-explosive fragmentation, to strengthen and refine the engine, chassis, and of course protection, communication and control systems. The latest model, the T-90, is simply a beautiful car, lightweight and comfortable. Therefore, despite their national pride, the Indians buy the T-90. I'm sure if Arjun really surpassed our Teshka, they would not have bought the obviously worse car. Therefore, the T-90s are being put up against a more formidable enemy, China, and they want to test their Arjuns in Pakistan, in my opinion everything is clear here. By the way, Indians, for actions in mountainous areas and in swamps, it would be nice to purchase new light Octopuses, Veins and light tanks with a 57 mm Baikal module, they only need to choose the BMP-3 or BMD-4 base ... And it is important to buy all the vehicles from complex, and not only one 125 mm Octopus, Vienna has a 120 mm mortar gun, which will allow the use of not only mines, which, by the way, can hit for 13 km, but any 120 mm shells that India uses, and Baikals are needed where 125 and 120mm calibers are redundant, 57mm automatic cannon shoots at 8 km and will penetrate any light Chinese tank in the forehead, and the middle one in the side, or blow away all the equipment from it with a burst, and this despite the fact that there is still no 57 mm BPS and modern OFS with a given detonation! !! Although the Indians broadcast that these machines are outdated, they do not have any in this class at all, unlike China, and their development will take them 30 years ... In addition, they need Russian, landing, light 82 and 120 mm mortars on vehicles and Cornets on the Tigers, which will be useful for battles in the highlands ... I think for India it will be an ideal solution, given the price / quality ratio. All the mentioned machines have already been tested, they are modern, lightweight, reliable, high-speed, so there is no need to reinvent the wheel, fellow Indians.