Military Review

Pavlo Skoropadsky. Russia without Bolsheviks

51
It is not for nothing that I called the post Russia without the Bolsheviks, although there is nothing here on this subject. This post is a continuation of the blog "1917 year. Russia without the Bolsheviks. Part of 2." Comrade Sukhov. The problem is that in the old Soviet and new Russian textbooks this part stories Ukraine is considered from the point of view of one-doom, whether it’s right or not, I don’t want to judge, but the fact that it’s one-sided is unambiguous. Without a correct understanding of those events, it is impossible to correctly construct the AI. That is why I offer you an article about the Hetman Skoropadsky.

Perhaps there is no leader in the history of Ukraine who is more slandered and humiliated than the hetman Pavlo Skoropadsky. This is probably a unique case - almost all contemporaries hated Paul Hetman.

For the socialists, he was a royal general and "pan". For supporters of the Russian Empire - a traitor and a separatist. For the Bolsheviks, by a general who stopped their advance on Kiev in November 1917, and the class enemy. And what is most tragic - for the Ukrainian patriots, he was forever proclaimed a German puppet and White Guard sycophant. Although a detailed study of the hetmanat period leads to very different conclusions.

Innocently accused

Hetman was reproached that he surrounded himself exclusively with supporters of "one-indivisible" Russia. It is not true. Such well-known Ukrainian patriots as Vyacheslav Lipinsky, Sergey Shelukhin, Dmitry Doroshenko, Mikhail Chubinsky (the son of the author of the anthem “Ukraine has not died yet), the future ideologist of Ukrainian nationalism Dmitry Dontsov and many others worked in the hetman’s administration. Nikolai Mikhnovsky was invited to become a personal adviser to the hetman, and the ideologue of the Ukrainian independent supporters did not agree to a less ministerial position. Naturally, many former Tsarist officials worked in the apparatus of the Ukrainian state. Just as in the times of the Directory. Generals Galkin, Greeks, Sinclair and Yunakov were not just former Tsarist generals - they did not speak Ukrainian either. It did not hinder them from occupying leadership positions in the UNI Army of DPR.

Pavlo Skoropadsky. Russia without Bolsheviks

Hetman was blamed for the fact that with him the local authorities were occupied by people who were openly hostile to Ukraine. It really was. The Kyiv provincial elder Chartorizhsky and the provincial elder of the Kharkiv region of Zalessky, who called all Ukrainians Mazeopians, and the Ukrainian language “an unnecessary innovation,” were especially odious. True, these characters were removed from their posts not by the UNR Directorate, but by the Hetman administration. Actually - for Ukrainophobia. The same applies to the punitive detachments created by the landlords to terrorize the peasants with the assistance of the German command. These detachments were eliminated not by the rebels of the atamans Angel and Zeleny, but by the guarding hundreds of the State Warta by order of the Hetman Interior Minister Igor Kistyakovsky.


Nikolai Yunakov 1918 year.


It is also not true that the hetmanate period was a continuous robbery of Ukraine by German troops. “Life in Yekaterinoslav was keyed ... After the Soviet hunger strike, the unheard-of low prices for food and a huge number of them on the markets hit,” recalled Professor G. Igrenev. The hetman's period was actually a period of revival of Ukrainian industry after the devastating Bolshevik invasion. Only coal production in relation to the times of the Central Rada grew by a factor of 1,5 (from 30 to 50 million pounds per month). Ukraine traded sugar, canned meat, vegetable and butter, and the like with Germany and Austria. Having accused Hetman of all deadly sins, the UNR Directorate actually took advantage of economic achievements. “One got the impression of dozens of hands clinging to the hetman's treasures,” recalled the officer of the headquarters of the Zaporizhzhya Corps of the UNR Army, center officer Avramenko, who recalled the first days of the Directory.

However, there is an accusation from which not to wash it off - “Diploma of the Federation of Ukraine with Russia”. With this document, Hetman Skoropadsky, it seems, forever renounced the idea of ​​independence of Ukraine and showed his commitment to the "one-indivisible." But not everything was easy.

Entente's verdict

Critics of Pavel Skoropadsky usually bypass the fact that the union of Ukraine with Russia in the administration of the hetman was demanded by the Entente. After the defeat of Germany in the First World, the Entente was the master of the situation. Ukraine for her was only the German puppet regime. The countries of the Entente were a number of agreements related to the government of tsarist Russia. In the autumn of 1918, on behalf of the latter, the Volunteer Army of General Anton Denikin, for whom no Ukraine "No, was not and never will be." The Entente countries did not want to support the separatist movements that emerged on the territory of their ally. Therefore, it can already be considered a success of Ukrainian diplomacy that the representatives of the Entente conducted negotiations with the envoys of the hetman in general (they ignored the directory). However, they were ready to recognize Ukraine only as part of Russia. In any other case, Ukraine became an ally of Germany for the Western states, against which it would start a war together with the Volunteer Army. But Ukraine could not resist them - it did not manage to form its own army.


Getman Soropadsky zі headquarters oglada Sіrozhupannu divіzіyu. Serpen 1918 Rock


To come to an agreement with the Entente was also demanded by the Bolshevik threat. At the VI Congress of Soviets, Leon Trotsky frankly announced his intention to seize Ukraine at the moment when German troops would leave its territory. To carry out the seizure of the Ukrainian lands, the Bolsheviks prompted an extremely pragmatic factor — Ukraine had the harvest of the 1918 of the year, and red Russia was dying of hunger. Give Ukraine time to deploy its own army could only Entente troops.

But the Entente was also not going to reproduce the Russian empire in its former borders. That is why the hetman demanded not liquidation of Ukraine as a state entity, but only its accession to Russia to one degree or another. In fact, the Entente demanded that Ukraine return to the position of the Hetman Khmelnytsky times, when Ukraine became part of Russia, having its own self-government, army and judicial system. Nobody left the choice to Hetman Skoropadsky.

Federation with Martians

Another fact that persistently bypasses the critics of the hetmanat, is that the hetman announced the letter of the federation with the state, which at that time did not exist. As of November 1918, the only country called “Russia” was the Bolshevik Republic. Naturally, Hetman Skoropadsky was not going to unite with her. In November, 1918, in the territory of the former Russian Empire, there were self-proclaimed states of the Ufa Directory, the Great Don and Kuban People’s Republic. All of them were not Russia. With the same success Hetman Skoropadsky could proclaim the union with Mars or Venus.

The 35-thousandth Volunteer Army of General Denikin did not control any territory at that time and was in the territory of the Don by agreement with the Don Government. That is why in the “Literacy of the Federation” in Ukraine there are words: “She will be the first to come forward in the formation of an All-Russian Federation, whose ultimate goal will be the restoration of a great Russia.”

The man whom the “Diploma of the Federation” managed to annoy insanely was General Anton Denikin. “Never, of course, no Russia - reactionary or democratic, republican or authoritarian will not allow the rejection of Ukraine” - this is how he briefly and succinctly expressed his attitude to the Ukrainian question. As part of the Russian Empire, Ukraine had no autonomy. The command of the Volunteer Army did not see any reason to somehow change this situation in the future.


Sichovі stіltsі. Kiev, birch 1918 rock. Photo of the view "Golden Gate. History Sichovyh strelts"


At the same time, in the “Literacy of the Federation” there was no mention anywhere of the renunciation of power by the Hetman, or of the liquidation of Ukraine as a state. “Getman wrote - under the auspices of Russia on federal principles, and Ukraine retains its sovereignty,” wrote the Ukrainian ambassador in Berlin, Baron Fyodor Steinheil, to former Foreign Minister Dmitry Doroshenko.

Because of the “Charter of the Federation,” the command of the Volunteer Army was in a very interesting position. On the one hand, the volunteers themselves were barefooted and hungry and did not have enough strength to oppose the Bolsheviks. They were waiting for a long and exhausting war with the force that controlled the entire central part of Russia, and then the equally difficult process of raising this country from the ruins. They could not even imagine how the political future of Russia would look like - its fate was to be decided by the Constituent Assembly, delegates to whom it was necessary to choose another in a country where a great number of people were ruled by the Reds.

However, with the proclamation of the “Charter of the Federation,” General Denikin was forced to put up with Ukraine as a reality. Ukraine became legitimate in the eyes of the Entente. Even more, the hetman had already controlled the territory in which there was no civil war, industry worked and its own foreign policy was carried out. Volunteers, all this was yet to be created. Even with Don and Kuban, they had to somehow explain. Under such circumstances, the likelihood that Ukraine would indeed become part of Russia as a subordinate was almost zero.

Multi-vector Hetman

The foreign policy successes of the Hetman administration nullified the situation inside the country. Dmitry Dontsov’s diary describes Hetman’s repeated complaints that he is forced to build Ukraine “in spite of the Ukrainians”. Almost from the first day of his power, the hetman had to overcome resistance from the Ukrainian society.

Socialists from the Central Rada hetman hated and categorically refused to cooperate with him. “Svetozar Dragomanov came to my chief, vice-minister of internal affairs, Vishnevsky, to coordinate his dimisy (he was an official in one of the ministries of the Central Rada), not wanting to remain with the“ anti-Ukrainian hetman government. ” At this scene, Vishnevsky spoke Ukrainian, and Dragomanov spoke Russian, ”recalled Dmitry Dontsov. Refusing to work in the government, the socialists were active in anti-state activities, not disdaining cooperation even with the Bolsheviks. Vladimir Vinnichenko did not hide the fact that the Red Moscow also allocated money for the overthrow of the hetmanate to the socialists. “Negotiations with Manuilsky are based on the following: to achieve neutrality of the Bolsheviks in our war against the Hetmans. Against Soviet Russia, we had absolutely no hostile intentions, ”admitted Mikita Shapoval, chairman of the Ukrainian National Union. This is after Krut and the Kiev massacre.


Skoropadskiy with ministers




Sovereign Warta (the police) and the Special Section of the Hetman's headquarters (political intelligence) were aware of this activity and in every way prevented it. As a result, many socialist activists were arrested by the State Guard. Without batting an eye, the socialists betrayed these facts as repression against conscious Ukrainians.

On the one hand, the Getman was under the pressure of the destructive activities of the socialists, on the other, it demanded a large number of experienced managers. It was to choose from whom, in the country a lot of tsarist officials remained, plus a huge number of businessmen, businessmen and military escaped from Russia embraced by Bolshevism. But all these people were very skeptical about the very fact of the existence of Ukraine. However, the hetman decided to take advantage of their talents while the staff of experienced managers and entrepreneurs would not have grown from among the Ukrainians themselves. Naturally, for this, Pavel Skoropadsky must make concessions in the cultural issue - de facto recognize the equality of the Russian and Ukrainian languages. The issue of school education, for example, was entrusted to local self-government bodies - zemstvos, which means that where the majority of the population (and, accordingly, the majority of zemstvo deputies) were Russian (all major cities), Ukrainization of education almost did not occur. As a result, charges such as “he brought to power of the members of the united ranks” and “build Russia in Ukraine” fell on the hetman.

These accusations were baseless. It was for the Hetman Skoropadsky in Ukraine that two Ukrainian universities appeared (in Kiev and Kamenetz-Podolsky), about 150 Ukrainian grammar schools were opened and the Academy of Sciences was established. Unreasonable accusations of repression selectively against the Ukrainians. Right-wing pro-Russian organizations were persecuted by no less than Ukrainian socialists. 7 July 1918 Derzhavna Warta dispersed a monarchist demonstration in Kiev. The order of the Hetman MVD is also noteworthy: “By the order of visitors, the orchestras in the restaurants play monarchist Russian songs ... while listening to the audience standing up, saluting ... I order: 1. Participants in such demonstrations are to be detained and sent to Russia so that they there with honor could in fact, and not in restaurants, restaurants, show their dedication to political ideas that are dear to them. ”

Faithful understanding

Getman Skoropadsky tried to communicate with the Ukrainian socialists. October 17 1918, when it became apparent that losing the war to Germany was only a matter of time, a charter was proclaimed in which he expressed his intention to "stand on the basis of the independence of the Ukrainian state." On October 25, five ministers were admitted to the government - representatives of the Ukrainian National Union: Andrei Vyazlov, Alexander Lototsky, Peter Stebnitsky, Nikolai Slavinsky (all from the Socialist-Federalist Party) and Vladimir Leontovich (non-partisan). At the same time, Hetman Skoropadsky went on an unprecedented compromise - the hated ONS ministry-siloviki Igor Kistyakovsky (MVD) and Boris Stelletsky (the chief of staff of the hetman, who was in charge of the Special Section) were sent to resign. Both were extremely talented organizers, and their removal from office naturally affected the quality of information to Hetman.


Priyom at the Hetman Palace


However, the leaders of the socialists did not want to understand - since September 1918, they have been preparing an uprising against the hetman. The latter served as an initiative of the National Union, although in fact it was exclusively the leaders of the socialists and the command of military units of the Hetman army: Sich Riflemen, the Black Sea Kosh, Zaporozhye Division, the Railroad Corps and Podolsky Corps. “The National Union thinks absolutely nothing about armed struggle,” Nikita Shapoval complained.

However, on behalf of the National Union, the intention was announced to assemble the National Congress on November 17 in order to determine the future system of government in Ukraine. In fact, Vinnichenko and Shapoval prepared the abolition of hetmanship by the Congress. How the hetman considered the option of his personal participation in this Congress. “Or to become at the head of the Ukrainian movement, trying to capture everything in their hands. The implementation was drawn in such a way that I myself declared the Congress, and I changed the composition of the members, adding to it not only left-wing parties, ”Pavel Skoropadsky recalled. However, on November 13, officers of the Special Division of the Hetman headquarters arrested the head of his guard, Colonel Arcas. The counterintelligence agents learned from him that in the insurgents everything was already ready for an uprising and that it had to occur independently of the decision of Congress. On the same day, the socialist leaders and rebel generals formed the Directory and decided to start the uprising. There was no “Certificate of Federation” at that time.

Pavlo Skoropadsky found himself in a hopeless situation. Going with the flow meant giving power to the socialists, i.e. to individuals who once brought the country to the Bolshevik occupation. The getman was convinced that if the socialists came to power, the Bolsheviks would quickly seize Kiev, and he was not mistaken. It turned out that saving Ukraine from the enemy invasion was necessary against the will of the Ukrainian people. It was not the first time for a hetman to build Ukraine "in spite of Ukrainians". Hetman officials decided to go all in and rely on the “Special Corps” - a military unit made up of pro-Russian officers, which in the future should be sent to the front to Denikin (and thus get rid of these odious personnel in Ukraine). However, in order to rely on the pro-Russian forces, it was necessary to announce the restoration of the "one-indivisible." It was then that on November 14, the Letter of the Federation came into being, to which the Hetman was forced by the Entente. “In this federation, Ukraine will have to occupy one of the first places, because the order and legality of the region have left it,” the diploma noted.


Vyiskovy parade in Hetman Kiev


However, Hetman grossly mistaken in assessing the balance of power. After the Diploma, even the allied Ukrainian parties turned out to him: the grain-democrats and the socialists were federalists. For the whole country, Pavel Skoropadsky became a traitor. The Hetman officials still hoped that the rebels and the militants would exhaust each other and that the Hetman would be able to be above the fray. Actually, because of this, the hetman did not head the troops to suppress the rebels personally. But these hopes were not justified. Proponents of a single, indivisible, previously very noisy at rallies and on newspaper pages at a crucial moment began to massively avoid mobilizing into officer formations. General Keller, appointed commander of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, turned out to be such an ardent Ukrainophobia that even the hetman serdyuk and the ideological officers of the hetman began to move to the side of the Directory.

The hopes of the Entente were also in vain. The German units that were still stationed in Ukraine, at that time, carried out all the orders of the “Countries of consent”. The arrival of representatives of France in Kiev (who were already in Odessa) would be enough for the Germans to stop all negotiations with the Directory and force the rebels to sit at the negotiating table with the hetman. But representatives of the Entente did not come to Kiev. Getman lost and must renounce power.

But it is not necessary to exaggerate the role of the Hetman in all these events. Within six months, the projects of Ukraine’s joining Russia on federal principles to the command of the White Army were proposed by Chief Ataman Simon Petlyura. But the conditions in which Petliura was then located could not be compared with the Hetman ones. The Entente did not recognize the UPR and refused to speak with representatives of the Directory. Denikin did not have the slightest desire to go to any negotiations with the “separatist Petliura”. The Ukrainian army was doomed to war on three fronts and to further internment. The final plan for the autonomous status of Ukraine as part of the renewed empire was implemented by the Bolsheviks. Ukraine paid for this autonomy with the Holodomor and the charms of the Stalinist Gulag.

"The letter of the Federation of Ukraine with Russia" was even evaluated differently by his contemporaries. The head of the Hetman Ukrainian Telegraph Agency, Dmitri Dontsov, considered her a betrayal: “That the Diploma proclaimed a federation with a non-existent Russia does not justify it. Questions of state independence are not questions of tactics, but principles. ” At the same time, the former chairman of the Council of the Sich Riflemen, Osip Nazaruk, who personally inserted the memo on “Federated literacy” in the Declaration of the Directory, in exile sincerely repented for participating in the insurrection against the hetman. He did not consider the “Letter of the Federation” a betrayal, “because Skoropadsky introduced Moscow to Ukraine, and not Ukraine to Moscow.”
Originator:
http://alternathistory.org.ua
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  1. Roman Skomorokhov
    Roman Skomorokhov 24 November 2012 15: 49
    +2
    It’s quite clear.
    The role of an individual in history can be discussed endlessly. But I don’t remember, however, who said that often geniuses are understood only after death. Personally, my opinion is that they simply did not fully understand what the hetman wanted. I clearly understand that he did not wish evil to Ukraine. To be in a similar position - fire. The hetman did what he could and how he managed. It would hardly have been possible to survive between the three fires. But the fact that he only wanted his good to the country, I can see. Good article. He had a good idea. execution here ... well, yes in our part of the world this is normal.
    1. Kaa
      Kaa 24 November 2012 16: 13
      +29
      Quote: Banshee
      The hetman did what he could and how he managed.

      The first thing he did was change the oath. All the top RI generals, with the exception of EMNIP, General Keller, incidentally, who was killed in Kiev under Skoropadsky, supported the removal (not renunciation, as was later arranged) of the emperor, who was sworn, from power. And traitors, no matter how good deeds or intentions did not hide. sooner or later, they definitely end badly. The whole generals, who are in Russia, who are in exile, and those who joined the Bolsheviks, and those who fought against under different banners, and Alekseev, Ruzsky, and Kornilov, and Brusilov, and Kolchak, and Bonch-Bruyevich, I intentionally list them mixed, the meanness was originally committed together, but then their paths along the sidelines of history simply diverged ...
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 24 November 2012 17: 29
        -1
        And what oath to the tsar and the fatherland, the king has already abdicated and RI has ceased to exist.
        Nicholas 2 ruined his country with success as Gorbachev
        Nikolay2 was engaged in anything horrible but not a country, but Gorbachev traveled abroad
        1. Nymp
          Nymp 24 November 2012 17: 46
          +6
          Quote: Insurgent
          And what oath to the king and fatherland, the king has already abdicated and RI has ceased to exist
          Many officers while in exile remained faithful to the oath, and when Hitler attacked Russia they offered Stalin their militia. But the betrayal of the hetmans did not begin with the collapse of RI.
          1. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 24 November 2012 18: 01
            +7
            It is difficult to say something about those who offered their services to Stalin, but a lot will be remembered by those who became famous for offering their services to Hitler! Not one division was recruited from these characters, and even they committed atrocities in their former homeland - in all likelihood, and in the neighborhood too ...
            1. Insurgent
              Insurgent 24 November 2012 18: 06
              0
              Actually, Skoropadsky refused to cooperate with Hitler and died during a British air raid in Germany
              1. Vadivak
                Vadivak 24 November 2012 21: 00
                +8
                Quote: Insurgent
                Skoropadsky refused to cooperate with Hitler and died during a British air raid in Germany


                Those who refused \ to cooperate with the Nazis in the camps were


                Fragment of the transcript of the interrogation of the former head of the department of the Abwehr-II Berlin district, Colonel Erwin Stolze. May 29, 1945

                What other counter-revolutionary formations were used by the German intelligence agencies for subversive activities against the Soviet Union?
                Answer: In 1937, at the direction of Canaris, I contacted the former Ukrainian hetman Skoropadsky, who is in exile in Germany, and through the latter, with his son Daniil Skoropadsky.
                On the instructions of Kanaris, I had to find out from Skoropadsky his connection and influence on the territory of Soviet Ukraine, after which I would decide on the use of these connections and Skoropadsky by our intelligence.
                Skoropadsky was very willing to talk about connections and, apparently, understanding our intentions, he himself proposed cooperation with us.
                In the future, Skoropadsky requested a large amount of funds for organizing work in Ukraine, but Canaris, having information about Skoropadsky's insignificance and insignificant ties and influence on Ukraine, refused to finance Skoropadsky, refused his services to Abwehr.
                Skoropadsky nevertheless sought his cooperation and there was a case when in my presence he proved to Canaris about his great ties in America, England and other countries and that he could use these ties in favor of Germany.
                Canaris, believing that Skoropadsky was seeking personal gain in his ties with Abwehr and that he couldn’t do anything for Abwehr, did not agree with his services ...
                During the German occupation of Ukraine, department officer Abwehr II, who worked in Lviv, captain, professor Kokh, informed me that he uses Metropolitan Sheptytsky in our work.
                After a report on this to Canaris, the latter personally traveled to contact Sheptytsky, which Koch arranged for him ...
                Interrogated the Head of the ROC "SMERSH" 2 Guards. TA
                Guards lieutenant colonel Shevchenko
                Head of the 2nd department of the ROC "SMERSH" 2 guards. TA
                Guards Major Vorotilov
                through the translator guards. Captain Zaitsev
                Central State Archive of Public Associations of Ukraine. - F. 57. - Op. 4. - D. 338. - L. 280-288.

                1. Insurgent
                  Insurgent 24 November 2012 22: 16
                  -9
                  He lived in Germany as a private person at the following address: Berlin-Wannsee, Alzenshtrasse, 17. During the Second World War he consistently refused offers of cooperation from the Nazis. He was mortally shell-shocked as a result of the bombing of the Platling station near Regensburg by Anglo-American aircraft and died a few days later in the hospital of the Metten Monastery. Buried in Obersdorf.
                  1. Vadivak
                    Vadivak 24 November 2012 22: 53
                    +4
                    Quote: Insurgent
                    During the Second World War, he consistently declined offers of cooperation from the Nazis. He lived in Germany as a private person.



                    He lived, and was not only friends with the Germans

                    He maintained lively contact with the Japanese military attaché in Berlin, Colonel Banzai. On the part of the hetman, about two thousand volunteers from Western Europe were promised, and even lists of them were transferred to organize their dispatch to Manchuria at a time that the Japanese authorities would consider most suitable.

                    Even OUN’s Stepan Bandera (and not just him), having tried to be disloyal to the Nazis, was arrested and placed in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, after which he ended up in the Abwehr 202nd team in Krakow, which private person is in fascist Germany? Since 1927, Skoropadsky received an annual subsidy of 12 thousand marks. and who-who, but the Germans just didn’t pay money
                2. vladimirZ
                  vladimirZ 25 November 2012 15: 31
                  +2
                  As Skoropadsky was a German agent working for Germany, he remained so, even when the Germans did not need him, all the same he tried to impose his services on them for 30 pieces of silver.
              2. makano
                makano 24 November 2012 22: 10
                +4
                There is chauvinism both Russian (well, who argues) and Ukrainian. And the author of the article stands on these chauvinistic tracks if not more than the new Russians.
                "Skoropadsky brought Moscow to Ukraine, not Ukraine to Moscow."
                1. Nick
                  Nick 25 November 2012 14: 48
                  0
                  Quote: makano
                  "Skoropadsky brought Moscow to Ukraine, not Ukraine to Moscow."

                  What's the difference!? The main thing is that the IMHO reunion would be useful for both Ukraine and Russia, because, in my understanding, this is a single country and a single, in fact, people.
              3. Vadivak
                Vadivak 24 November 2012 22: 23
                +5
                Quote: Insurgent
                and died in a raid by British aviation in Germany


                On April 26, 1945, when he fled from Berlin from the Red Army to his family in Bavaria, Americans were waiting there - (the 45th division of the USA entered Munich on April 30), but from their own aircraft at the Plyatling railway station, received shell-shock during the bombing and died in the monastery of Metten,
            2. Nymp
              Nymp 24 November 2012 18: 09
              -2
              Quote: Brother Sarich
              but many will be remembered for those who became famous for offering their services to Hitler!
              The percentage of these Judas among the Russian emigrants is not high. Most often they were opportunists who did not get along with the Soviet regime. Stalinist propaganda exaggerated this percentage. It was necessary to somehow motivate Stalin's refusal to accept the help of the former White Guards. But now, what I wanted to say, a true patriot of the fatherland, will never finish him off and go over to the side of the enemy motivating his act: -Mall and so the Empire is crumbling! This is not a reason, the reason I have already indicated in previous comets.
              1. Brother Sarych
                Brother Sarych 24 November 2012 21: 10
                +1
                Wow, not high - did you try to find out more precisely the composition of Hitler's so-called "Russian" units and what was the percentage of emigrants there? Those who refuse to cooperate are more the exception than the rule ...
            3. FREGATENKAPITAN
              FREGATENKAPITAN 24 November 2012 18: 59
              +10
              Yes sir! A telling example is the fate of the white general A. Denikin ..... who, although he was an ardent opponent of the Soviet regime, remained to the end a true patriot of Russia .....
              ..... The Germans were imprisoned in a concentration camp, where the Goebbels department offered him assistance in literary work. He refused to cooperate, was released and settled under the control of the German commandant’s and the Gestapo [1]: 566 in a friends villa in the village of Mimizan in the vicinity of Bordeaux. Many of the books, brochures, and articles written by Denikin in the 1930s were put on the list of banned literature in the territory controlled by the Third Reich and were removed.

              He refused to register with the German commandant’s office as a stateless person (who were Russian emigrants), citing the fact that he is a citizen of the Russian Empire, and no one took his citizenship from him

              In 1942, the German authorities again offered Denikin cooperation and relocation to Berlin, this time demanding, according to Ippolitov’s interpretation, that he lead anti-communist forces from among Russian emigrants under the auspices of the Third Reich, but received the general’s decisive refusal.

              Gordeev, referring to the information obtained in archival documents, provides information that in 1943 Denikin sent a wagon with medicines to the Red Army at his personal expense, which puzzled Stalin and the Soviet leadership. It was decided to take the medications, and not to disclose the name of the author of their dispatch.
              1. hrych
                hrych 25 November 2012 08: 40
                +3
                One misfortune, he is a participant in a conspiracy led by his boss General Alekseev to overthrow the Tsar-Batyushka, from which all the ills began.
                1. Basilevs
                  Basilevs 25 November 2012 21: 40
                  -2
                  ... to overthrow the Tsar-Father ..
                  Tsar-Father ??
                  Is that everything in the world that surrendered the monarchy like a company, the holy Nobleman Romanov - father ??

                  I remember a photo of a postcard from the times of World War I - Nikolai, in an open field with both hands holding on to ... chew. And the inscription - "Autocrat".
                  1. hrych
                    hrych 25 November 2012 23: 33
                    +5
                    For some, Nicholas is the Tsar-Batyushka, and for some, Lenin-grandfather and Trotsky (Bronstein) are uncle, and to whom Odessa is my mother.
          2. Insurgent
            Insurgent 24 November 2012 18: 12
            -7
            Nimp-We should judge them well Skoropadsky wanted to stop all this chaos after him came Petlyura, is he better?
            1. donchepano
              donchepano 24 November 2012 18: 35
              0
              Quote: Insurgent
              Nimp-We should judge them well Skoropadsky wanted to stop all this chaos after him came Petlyura, is he better?


              after the fire and sword swept the Bolsheviks and executioners Trotsky and others .. famines in Ukraine and Russia What is better?
              1. Kaa
                Kaa 24 November 2012 21: 56
                +3
                Quote: donchepano
                after the fire and sword swept the Bolsheviks and executioners Trotsky

                "If the White Guards had guessed to throw out the slogan of the 'Kulak Tsar', we would not have resisted even two weeks." -L.D. Bronstein (Trotsky).
                Not put forward. Including due to such as Skoropadsky. We accept a story as it has already happened, but we draw analogies so as not to repeat its repetition in the form of a farce ...
            2. hrych
              hrych 25 November 2012 08: 43
              +3
              He is chaos.
          3. FREGATENKAPITAN
            FREGATENKAPITAN 24 November 2012 18: 51
            +6
            Quite right ..... when the Union collapsed, they tried to force us (the officers) to take a new oath, already the Russian Federation, ..... everyone refused ...... they take the oath once, and not Brezhnev, Andropov, Yeltsin, or even to the tsar-father .... and the Motherland, the Fatherland ..... so up there, realizing that it would not give a ride and decided to give a new oath to the graduates of schools ... (see 72 meters "Farewell of a Slav")
            1. Cavas
              Cavas 24 November 2012 21: 58
              +3
              Quote: FREGATENKAPITAN
              .when the Union collapsed we (the officers) tried to force us to take a new oath, already the Russian Federation, ..... everyone refused ... the oath is taken once, and not to Brezhnev, Andropov, Yeltsin or even the tsar’s king ... .a Homeland, Fatherland.

              I will help you with the video!

            2. Ascetic
              Ascetic 25 November 2012 01: 01
              +5
              FREGATENKAPITAN,

              Yes, there was such a thing, and when everyone refused, this business was slowly turned off, hushed up and shut up. A high rank was even visiting us (I don’t want to give a last name, then he was caught stealing and it seems he was even planted) stomped the nogamite and called us rocket officers nuclear terrorists, for which I almost got into the snout and retreated.
        2. Kaa
          Kaa 24 November 2012 18: 18
          +3
          Quote: Insurgent
          Nicholas 2 ruined his country with success as Gorbachev

          “By the end of 1916, a conspiracy was organized against Nicholas II, initiated by the Progressive Bloc and the upper classes of the bourgeoisie, supported by the Entente. IN AND. Lenin, who was well versed in political conspiracies and coups, wrote: “If defeats at the beginning of the war played the role of a negative factor that accelerated the explosion, then the connection of Anglo-French imperialism with the October-Cadet capital of Russia was a factor that accelerated this crisis by directly organizing conspiracy against Nikolai Romanov. If the revolution won so soon and so - in appearance, at first glance - superficially, radically, it is only because, due to the extremely original historical situation, completely different streams, completely different class interests, completely dissimilar class interests, merged political and social aspirations. Namely: the conspiracy of the Anglo-French imperialists, pushing Miliukov and Guchkov with Co. to seize power in the interests of continuing the imperialist war. The Anglo-French imperialist capital, in the interests of continuing and strengthening this massacre, forged new palace intrigues, arranged a conspiracy with the guards officers, incited and he encouraged the Guchkovs and the Milyukovs, and set up a completely ready-made new government, which seized power. ” But no conspiracy would have been possible if the army had remained faithful to the King and the oath. Therefore, the outcome of the upcoming coup d'etat depended on who she would be with. Only after the Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolayevich and all the front commanders: Generals Alekseev, Brusilov, Evert, Sakharov, Ruzsky, Admiral Kolchak sent telegrams to him or gave them verbally “with tearful” requests to renounce, did he (Emperor Nikolai 2) understand: everything - the circle has closed. ” -Multatuli P.V. "Emperor Nicholas II at the head of the army and the conspiracy of generals"
          But you, "rebel, rebel", of course, taught a completely different story ... hi
          1. Insurgent
            Insurgent 24 November 2012 19: 32
            -11
            It was the most mediocre tsar in the history of Russia, he was engaged more with the holy fool Rasputin but not the country
            1. Gregazov
              Gregazov 24 November 2012 20: 34
              +2
              And you, of course, knew Him personally, drank seagulls and talked. Your formidable assessment is based on the words of historical and fiction that you read.
              I allow myself to assert that in this case the royal throne would have been overthrown as far back as Japan.
              In Nikolai’s fate, in my opinion, despair from the betrayal of loved ones, including the closest relatives, played a large role.
              Perhaps you can now draw a parallel between the Russian Empire in 1917. and the situation in Syria at present. However, the level of development of Russia is certainly incomparably higher than Syria.
              1. hrych
                hrych 25 November 2012 09: 03
                +6
                All Nikolai's fault was that he pitied his people, did not make bloody sacrifices, and this led to unthinkable sacrifices. The king is not a lamb or a red deer, but a formidable lion. In 1905, Russia regrouped its forces and prepared for the end of Japan, which, despite the victories, completely went bankrupt, and the appearance of submarines on the Tikhiy river caused an apocalyptic panic in Japan and they were ready to give everything for peace. The strategists reported to Nikolai that the clearing of Japan would cost the lives of 100 thousand Russian soldiers and he gave the order for peace (and everyone in the world confuses Russian kindness with weakness). Moreover, within the country, Nicholas, relying on the healthy forces of society in the form of the "Black Hundred", pacified the Jewish-terrorist conspiracy, but out of kindness did not finally decide the Jewish question. And in 1917 he was betrayed generals and family members, such as smelly Cyril, hoped for by friends of the Masons to take the throne, and his descendants niggers (and that of the women's halakhic line) is often on the screen EBNye years, wanted to profit weakened Russia.
      2. alex_crimean
        alex_crimean 25 November 2012 17: 26
        +1
        Yes, with the connivance of Skoropadsky, who was afraid of the authority of a brilliant general, Keller was wildly and brutally killed, and the bandits of Konovalets presented his golden St. George’s weapon to Petliura. It is characteristic that the general and two officers accompanying him were finished with bayonets in the snow of Sophia Square, under the monument to Bogdan Khmelnitsky!
    2. Nymp
      Nymp 24 November 2012 17: 07
      +11
      Quote: Banshee
      The hetman did what he could and how he managed. It would hardly have been possible to survive between the three fires.
      This propaganda is designed for people like you! A "country" that does not have its own history, separate from Russia, is trying to create it. (It hurts, everything Russian is hateful!) And all that you can be proud of is joint, and only betrayal - your own blood - is Ukrainian. So the homegrown political scientists "historians" tried to whitewash cowardice, baseness and betrayal in the guise of heroism. But the truth cannot be hidden with beautiful phrases! And people like you feel sorry for you, it is easy to agitate and win over to your side.
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 24 November 2012 18: 08
        -3
        Bulgakov described all this in detail in his novels
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 24 November 2012 21: 06
          +2
          Quote: Insurgent
          described it all in his novels


          Oh, how will we study history from novels?

          Novel. A romandetalized narrative, which, as a rule, gives the impression of a story about real people and events that are not actually such.
    3. Yura
      Yura 24 November 2012 20: 05
      +1
      Quote: Banshee
      Personally, my opinion is that they simply did not fully understand what the hetman wanted.

      But he himself understood what he wanted? This is just a question and nothing more.
      1. Roman Skomorokhov
        Roman Skomorokhov 24 November 2012 23: 57
        0
        Understand. You know, it's difficult to judge based on historical (and not so much) documents and narratives. My opinion is that of course I understood. Because there was a certain meaningfulness in the actions. And the fact that to the personnel plan "he took everything up to the potatoes", as was rightly noted - well, from what it was, from that and chose. The team was still the same ...
        Another question is how much we can understand and appreciate it today ... after so many years ...
  2. Gromila78
    Gromila78 24 November 2012 15: 56
    +19
    Interestingly, and the article about the slander Bandera or Kerensky will be? I am always amazed among the logic of all self-stylers. We can separate (Georgia, Ukraine, etc.), and those who want to separate from us (Crimea, Abkhazia, Ossetia, etc.) are traitors and traitors. I invite them all to decide what is most important - the right of the nation to self-determination or inviolability of borders. But Bulgakov is well told about the hetman, he knew what he was writing about. laughing
    1. Gregazov
      Gregazov 24 November 2012 20: 37
      +2
      It seems to me that for articles of this kind it is necessary to allocate a separate forum under the slogan "Unaccepted Geniuses" and then, like a classic: an entrance to the forum for children of women, etc. (see Ilf and Petrov)
  3. hrych
    hrych 24 November 2012 16: 35
    +13
    It is difficult to understand these personalities, but that Skoropadsky, that Wrangel fled to save their own skin (or acting according to a secret plan) and casting to the mercy of an still combat-ready army, depriving them of control and demoralizing their people, allows us to consider them frank shit not worthy of mention.
    1. old rocket man
      old rocket man 24 November 2012 17: 36
      +10
      Quote: hrych
      lets consider them frank shit not worthy of mention

      +, Hrych. Shit always pops up, so Skoropadsky popped up
    2. omsbon
      omsbon 24 November 2012 17: 58
      +1
      Quote: hrych
      Wrangel fled to save their own skin (or acting according to a secret plan) and casting to the mercy of an still combat-ready army, depriving them of control and demoralizing their people, allows us to consider them outright shit not worthy of mention.

      Regarding Wrangel, allow me, dear Hrych, to disagree. The white army was evacuated, those who did not want to leave remained in the Crimea (for which they paid).
      1. hrych
        hrych 24 November 2012 18: 30
        +5
        In September 1920, the Wrangel army with all the rear institutions numbered about 300 thousand people. Of the 50 officers in the Russian Army of Wrangel, 6 were directly in combat formations, 13 in the immediate rear and 31 in the rear (counting the sick and wounded). Those. with such a shitty commander, the officers instead of the battlefield went to theaters with young ladies and drank coffee. Out of 300 thousand, 100 thousand were evacuated, and 200 thousand were thrown to be torn to pieces by red. Having such power (so that Suvorov or Skobelev would do it in his place?), One must not flee in a panic, but take Moscow and Petrograd.
  4. VadimSt
    VadimSt 24 November 2012 17: 25
    +1
    Oh, this historical truth. Each sculpts it according to their conviction - even relying on the same official documents. Hence the various improvisation and conclusions for the same historical events.
    Perhaps it is possible to really appreciate the events, having access to all available historical documents, and not only in Ukraine and Russia, and this, in the complete absence of political views. Historical science, in its modern form (at least in post-Soviet countries), acts as a tool designed to serve public policy and politicians, rather than the search for historical truth.
    1. old rocket man
      old rocket man 24 November 2012 17: 48
      0
      Quote: VadimSt
      . Historical science, in its modern form (at least in post-Soviet countries), acts as a tool designed to serve public policy and politicians, rather than the search for historical truth.


      History is not a science, it was made a science in order to be able to hide and distort facts for the sake of those in power, and this was done always.in all countries and at all times.
      "Historians" limited society's access to facts and arrogated to themselves the sole right to interpret them, just as the church arrogated to itself the right to interpret the Old Testament. It is not for nothing that the first chroniclers and historians were monks, and always in close connection with the state
  5. Black
    Black 24 November 2012 17: 46
    0
    I completely agree with you. History, as a science, is an expensive elite prostitute working for the state. And this is not only with us, but maybe now, even not so much with us, in the West it is just as corrupt. Who orders music, that girl also dances.
    As for the personalities of the times of such a historic turning point, most of them are worthy of good memory and, at least understanding, and maybe sympathy. Already very complex, multi-layered time they got.
    We are from the heights of time, and lying on the couch, it is easy to move shelves.
  6. bistrov.
    bistrov. 24 November 2012 17: 48
    +6
    By the way, where is the author's name under the article? Afraid of targeted criticism? I fundamentally disagree with the author's praise of Hetman Skoropadsky (the surname speaks for itself: - fell soon), who got along on a short leg even with the idiologist and idol of modern Ukrainian nationalism Dontsov, and also in fact was a kind of Ukrainian "burgomaster" during the German occupation troops, allowing them to plunder and export to Germany the natural resources of Ukraine: bread, meat, coal, timber .. I don’t think that for the common people in Ukraine there was such prosperity as the author describes to us here. The Germans, Petliurists, Skoropadsky's troops, Makhnovists, White Guards, various self-appointed atamans and simply atamans, and everyone wanted to eat and drink, and not just eat, but eat well and, moreover, for free. And where could this "freebie" come from, if not from a poor peasant tormented by a long war. So, no offense to the author, let him admit that he was lying, he decided to embellish the then harsh Ukrainian reality. In this regard, even the White Guard troops, who wanted to restore the territorial integrity of Russia, although also selling it wholesale and retail, signing fabulous loans for the supply of mainly weapons, military equipment, food, promising the Entente golden mountains, and at the same time giving away the territory: - the Anglo-Americans landed in Arkhangelsk and Murmansk, the French in Odessa, the Americans and Japanese in Vladivostok, the Amur region and Transbaikalia, and somehow they look more decent, perhaps, than this whole Ukrainian bunch of worthless independent rulers, all these Grushevsky, Skoropadsky, Petliura, Vinnichenok, Makhno and others. And if Makhno can still somehow be understood, well, a man was mistaken, he decided to create a peasant republic, an idealist, you see, then Skoropadsky is the most sinister and odious figure among all this fraternity, without a twinge of conscience lay under the Germans, preaching at the same time the desire to separate Ukraine ... In addition, all these newly-minted Ukrainian rulers were not averse to robbing, even Batko Makhno, for which he was a silver man and a favorite of ordinary peasants and made a pretty decent fortune in gold and stones. The papers, you know, were not quoted then. So, in the thoughts of the author of this article, I see the aspiration of some people, which is fashionable today in Ukraine, to whitewash the traitors, criminals of the past, so as not to seem against their background an even greater traitor and robber. This is me in spite of the modern powers that be in Ukraine. And the author of the article is minus!
    1. Felix200970
      Felix200970 24 November 2012 21: 47
      +2
      Quote: boris.radevitch
      I fundamentally disagree with the praise by the author of the hetman Skoropadsky (the surname itself speaks for itself: it soon fell)

      In Ukraine, they don’t give names for free lol
  7. boris.radevitch
    boris.radevitch 24 November 2012 17: 55
    -10
    Russia without the Bolsheviks is good!
  8. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 24 November 2012 17: 57
    +6
    And why then post these ho .. Ukrainian fiction?
    Now I’m afraid to give an assessment to the materials - they’re already driving me from the site!
    Even the home site has many complaints about this material ...
  9. valokordin
    valokordin 24 November 2012 18: 11
    +6
    Boris, what a good name Yeltsin had, he also said that it was good without the Bolsheviks, Hitler and Churchill said the same, then Esenhower, and a series of presidents from Kennedy to Obama, and you Boris are among these great people
  10. Egoza
    Egoza 24 November 2012 18: 15
    +4
    But the essence is different! History repeats itself! And the new Skoropadsky betray their people, and as before, Ukraine can not turn in the right direction.
    1. Felix200970
      Felix200970 24 November 2012 21: 58
      +6
      What does Skoropadsky have to do with it? For the second century, independent Ukraine has been awakened by "Jews", "Yki" and other busurmans, but Svidomo Ukrainians celebrate the day of the Orange Revolution, they even go to the toilet in embroidered shirts, shout at all corners about the lack of democracy in Ukraine, they do not do anything and are very full of it ... Fortunately, the two most notorious patriots were able to close them for economic crimes, but their sacrifice was not in vain. They were raised as a banner, declared political prisoners and continue to fool normal people.
    2. petro
      petro 25 November 2012 12: 14
      0
      "The right side" is kuda.Tuda where there are high living standards, there is no corruption, banditry in the state. the level of judicial arbitrariness - then I support. And the most interesting thing is that now they will start to minus me, that I am up to one place, then it turns out that these minusovalschiki FOR BANDITISM, FOR CORRUPTION, JUDICIAL'S ARRIVAL, THAT THE PEOPLE DO NOT LIVE, BUT LOST.
      1. Oidsoldier
        Oidsoldier 28 November 2012 14: 15
        0
        "The right side" is at least where, but to move from the current state of affairs. Interestingly, somewhere in the world there is something similar to the "case of the caravan shooter" with the murder of the suspect Mazurk?
  11. bubla5
    bubla5 24 November 2012 18: 23
    +4
    Another White Guard with ........
  12. wolk71
    wolk71 24 November 2012 18: 40
    +3
    I think that the article is on the wrong site, the article is not in the subject.
    1. petro
      petro 25 November 2012 12: 22
      -1
      It’s like it’s not on that site, and what is your concept of how the site should be. Do you think if the opinion does not coincide with the opinion of the majority, then it is erroneous. So in fascist Germany and the communist USSR there was complete unity of state and people, it’s necessary to say merged in ecstasy. So it turns out they were right, the truth and how it ended.
  13. dmb
    dmb 24 November 2012 18: 49
    +9
    I wonder who the article was written for? If for "broad" Ukrainians, why not on "Mov"? And to write something like that for normal Russians and Ukrainians who consider the Belovezhskaya Trinity as traitors. wasted labor. To be honest, the very presentation of the material suggests that the author, while studying at school, was not too zealous in learning rhetoric and homiletics, and therefore some of its excerpts resemble a meaningless set of phrases like: "vitriol, it has a positive effect." More astonishment at Banshee's comment. Novel. Your articles and comments are always read with interest due to the fact that they are reasoned. Well, here you are somehow too much. I understand when the Balts talked and talk about secession. Well, our mentality is somewhat different. But you tell me at which period of our common history the Ukrainians were so oppressed that they slept and saw a separate existence. We can recall the distant Razumovsky, Potemkin and Bezborodko. And it is possible closer to Vasilevsky and Malinovsky, or, say, Shcherbitsky with Chernenko and Kirilenko. What kind of happiness did the "hetman" want for Ukraine? The concept of happiness for him, a large landowner, apparently differed somewhat from the happiness of the workers and peasants, in view of which he introduced a 12-hour working day and a tax in kind, for which some are so bonkers to the Bolsheviks. Apparently a different understanding of happiness and contributed to his early departure "Nah Deutschland".
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      Roman Skomorokhov 25 November 2012 00: 20
      +3
      Not really too much. wink
      You see, at one time I was taught that way, and not only me, dividing the world into black and white, or something else. This was especially true of those times from which there were no more eyewitnesses capable of confirming and refuting. With regards to this character - everything is simple and complicated at the same time. The article made a definite impression on me, I will not hide. But, since I can not objectively judge its reliability due to my poor knowledge of those times, I simply tried to imagine myself with my cockroaches in my head in the place of the hetman. I have a relatively clear understanding of his aspirations and how to put them into practice. Times were still those ... Both strange and terrible. And it is clear why he had such companions ... motley.
      Who decided then to dump - dumped. Who did not want to stay. The fact that he was trying to create something is understandable to me and is even taken on faith. How he did this is another matter.
      Therefore, I regarded all of this precisely so. And to judge whether he is right or not is not for me. History has already put everything in place.
      Yes, I never hid the fact that I am a fan of the USSR and an adversary of all these branches. Now that I have witnessed all this nightmare, judging is relatively easy and simple. But in relation to those times - fire. The empire collapsed, the order that was centuries old collapsed, and the fact that it began to line up on the ruins of this did not fit into any framework. That's why my opinion looked strange.
      It is not always easy to judge. Maybe there was a Skoropadsky traitor who changed the oath to his people, maybe there was something else. I was told one thing about Makhno and Dundich for half my life, but in reality then a completely different thing came out.
      This opus gave me another picture of the time, no more. And what was really, we are unlikely to be able to correctly learn and evaluate at 100%.
  14. kasper
    kasper 24 November 2012 21: 13
    -7
    The revolution of 1917 is the betrayal of the motherland, which gave rise to the Civil War, where the brother went to his brother and his son to his father.
    As a result: The territories of Poland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Western Ukraine, Belarus, the Kara region (in Armenia) and Bessarabia have departed from the former Russian Empire. Thousands of people died and what was the result?
    collectivization, famine, dispossession, mass repression.
    I am offended that on the main street of my city is a monument to Lenin
    1. petro
      petro 25 November 2012 12: 28
      +1
      The minusters, it turns out, for the repressions, the famine, for taking away what they acquired with their labor. It is explained only by the fact that they themselves were engaged in this.
  15. Insurgent
    Insurgent 24 November 2012 22: 17
    +2
    After the revolution in Germany, German troops began to leave the territories occupied as a result of the Brest Peace. Then the uprising of the Ukrainian Sich Riflemen, initiated by the Republican conspirators, began. Having lost German support after a short civil war, the Skoropadsky regime collapsed. In mid-December 1918, Kiev was taken by the troops of the UNR Directory, formed on November 13, 1918, headed by Simon Petlyura and Vladimir Vinnichenko. Skoropadsky himself on December 14, 1918 renounced the throne and secretly left Ukraine, leaving for Berlin.

    A contemporary of events who personally met with the hetman shortly before his abdication, the former State Duma deputy N. V. Savich, gives the following version of the reasons for the fall of Skoropadsky [5]:


    ... the Germans at the last moment before the evacuation fired against the hetman and his government Petliura and Galician gangs, wanting to put a pig on the allies. Moreover, they realized that both Gerbel and Skoropadsky themselves are independents like any Russian person in the Moscow Region. Seeing that they were mistaken in these people, they settled accounts with him at the last moment: they released against them the forces of anarchy and corruption.

    Skoropadsky himself wrote in his memoirs about the Galicians [6]:


    ... unfortunately, their culture, due to historical reasons, is too different from ours. Then, among them there are many narrow fanatics, especially in the sense of professing the idea of ​​hatred of Russia. This kind of Galicians were the best agitators sent to us by the Austrians. It doesn’t matter for them that Ukraine without Great Russia will suffocate, that its industry will never develop, that it will be entirely in the hands of foreigners, that the role of their Ukraine is to be inhabited by some kind of vegetative settlement.

    [edit] Further fate
  16. Fedor
    Fedor 25 November 2012 08: 03
    +1
    By the way, if we digress from the content of the article, and consider it from a purely technical point of view, it is clearly seen that this is a MACHINE translation from Ukrainian into Russian. There are quite good computer translators Russian-Ukrainian and Ukrainian-Russian, the same "Ruta" for example, but even after them the authors of the material should check what they have written. In order not to be ashamed later.
  17. dojjdik
    dojjdik 25 November 2012 10: 13
    +3
    it would be better for the author to tell about the soldering of North American Indians; you can still import about the plantation slaves of Nigeria; could also about children who lived in "rich" America in candy boxes; about a freak Truman who dropped an atomic bomb on the heads of innocent people
    1. petro
      petro 25 November 2012 12: 30
      0
      You would be better off for your problems, for your people.
    2. Charon
      Charon 25 November 2012 13: 47
      0
      You can also tell how niggas spread rot and whitewash whites and how sodomites mock normal people.
      But the author chose Skoropadsky. Perhaps this topic is closer to him than blacks - sodomites. And somehow I can’t blame him for this.
  18. Ustas
    Ustas 25 November 2012 10: 43
    +1
    Without a proper understanding of those events

    Of course, only this author knows how to "correctly" understand those events.
  19. rexby63
    rexby63 25 November 2012 12: 32
    +2
    It breaks through a tear. MINUS article and huge. Skoropadsky, even on the materials of this obviously subjective article, appears to be a renegade, but not a patriot and subtle politician. About the ability to sit on two chairs they usually say that it’s tricky.ost, and here the master tried at once on three. By the way, this article is useful in some ways. Useful for its historical analogies and parallels. Gentlemen of politics, study history carefully. Do not try to imagine yourself smarter than others. Everything that you do or are preparing to do is already up to you
  20. boris.radevitch
    boris.radevitch 25 November 2012 13: 24
    0
    Still need to look for thieves in the Ministry of Defense, they bred like bugs on
    working people and they drink blood from us Russians! am
  21. Skorobogatov_P
    Skorobogatov_P 25 November 2012 18: 04
    +3
    Listen! Can you imagine a situation when the Germans, being the masters of the situation, would suddenly just allow to proclaim someone other than their creature not only as hetman, but simply as burgomaster? All the talk that Skoropadsky was a private person is simply ridiculous. He was simply installed, he was simply granted to Krajina as the governor of the Kaiser. Yes, the moment was chosen skillfully - everyone was sick and tired of the Central Rada with its mahengesheftors and nationalists to the green devils: both the red and the emerging white movement fought with it in the cities. And in rural areas, partisans began to fight, both greens and reds and blacks. But they fought with the Germans and Austrians (in the area of ​​modern Zaporozhye, they lathered well the neck of the Sich riflemen - who draped from there to Kiev under the protection of the Germans), and the Central Rada to the South and East from Kiev influenced only the minds of the Ukrainian intelligentsia. You can argue as much as you like in the style if only if only, but the reality is that as long as there is such a country as Russia on 1/6 of the land, all these independent navels of the Ukrainian land will be like cartridges in the weapon holder of this or that "master of the World."
  22. TekhnarMAF
    TekhnarMAF 25 November 2012 18: 06
    +3
    I read the article (With great difficulty. I am a descendant of sov from the Kiev region) of the Lord, history does not have a subjunctive mood and talk about what would happen if it were. Let's live in real time - but now we are at a crossroads, you go to marry (we kiss in the hickey with staff), you go to the left, you will be rich? Go straight-- be beaten! Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians have nothing to divide, it is necessary to unite and then we have no equal !! We are descendants of Kievan Rus!
  23. 1goose3
    1goose3 25 November 2012 21: 57
    0
    The fate of a man who has not decided on a turning point. But there are no halftones at the turn, only white and black, and for this reason, history has grinded many smart and adequate people. They can and should be respected because most were aware of the consequences.
  24. understudy
    understudy 26 November 2012 10: 57
    0
    Where to hang a medal with an innocent obolgannogo? Ugh!
    However, after the glorification of the heroic deeds of the "self-styled" during the Great Patriotic War, nothing can be surprising.