Russian photolithographer - the impossible is possible

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Russian photolithographer - the impossible is possible
Photolithograph ASML. Source: arscomp.ru


Nowhere to move to the right


Why does Russia need its own photolithograph and what can it do?



It's worth starting a little further. According to many, in the 2st century, a sign of the development of the state is the ability to produce high-tech products. For example, smartphones or laptops. Strictly speaking, Russia fully complies with this qualification - the country produces quite competitive equipment. Here, Bitblaze Titan is a domestic laptop or YotaPhone XNUMX is a homegrown smartphone. The laptop is also built around the Russian eight-core Baikal-M processor. It would seem that a reason for pride is ready - we invite everyone to celebrate. But here the nuances begin.

Both a smartphone and a laptop are just a product of a compilation of imported components and fine-tuning of the entire technical orchestra. The work is not easy and requires high-quality brains, but has a lot of vulnerabilities. Dependence on suppliers, first of all. The famous Baikal-M is domestic only in design. And here, not everything is completely Russian - the processor core from the British office ARM. The production of the product from A to Z was organized at the facilities of the Taiwanese giant TSMC.

Similarly, the processor for smartphones "Skif" is manufactured from the Zelenograd SPC "Elvis" - "Electronic Computing and Information Systems". More precisely, it was made: the Taiwanese manufacturer refused all Russian developers.


Silicon crystal after photolithography. Source: domoticzfaq.ru

A well-developed microchip design industry has been created in our country. Among the leaders are MCST Elbrus, Baikal Electronics, STC Modul, Syntacore and the above-mentioned SPC Elvis. The irony is that independently developed Baikal-M chips and the most advanced ones from the Elbrus line, Russia is not capable of producing them on its own. Currently the best Russian factory of microprocessors "Mikron" is ready to produce products using 90 nanometer technology. In the order of pilot production, 65 nm is also possible. Baikal-M is designed for the 28nm process technology, and Elbrus-16C is generally for 16nm. Is this a tragedy? No, it does not matter much for the technological independence of the country.

The fact is that the technical processes mastered in Russia are more than enough for both the defense industry and the civilian sector. In the range from 65 to 180 nm, domestic manufacturers can build processors for modern machine tools, servers, household, automotive and military equipment. Relatively speaking, a cruise missile does not need chips on a 5-10-nanometer architecture. Such subtle technologies are required for smartphones and other wearable technology. For example, 5nm chips are built into Sony Playstation game consoles. But in Russia these are not produced.

At first glance, everything is fine - there are home-grown and quite high-quality manufacturers, developers are also in order, it remains only to adapt to the requirements of the domestic market. But there is one caveat - all production equipment is exclusively imported. Primarily photolithographs, critical components of a microprocessor factory.

Photolithographs are our everything


If you look at any Russian microprocessor production, be it Mikron, Milander, Module or Elvis, there are Dutch (ASML) or Japanese (Nikon, Canon) photolithographs everywhere. Of course, now even spare parts for this equipment cannot be officially supplied to Russia, not to mention finished machines. And it is not easy to create a photolithograph on your own. More precisely, it is very difficult.

A bit of theory. Any photolithographic machine is very similar to photo printing machines. Only everything is much more complicated and more expensive. For example, a kit of photomasks for printing chips can cost up to $10 million. Through these templates, an ultraviolet emitter (most often a laser) projects a circuit onto a silicon crystal coated with a photosensitive composition - this is how the future microchip blank appears.

This exposure procedure is repeated many times, interspersed with etching, doping, drying, and deposition. Modern processors can contain 12 or more layers, consisting of field-effect transistors, conductors, and other components. And this is all on the object, 100 thousand times less than the thickness of a human hair. Of course, production is organized in ultra-clean rooms and in special buildings isolated from external vibrations. Experts like to say that even a tram passing a couple of blocks from the factory can affect the accuracy of chip manufacturing.

The actual monopolist among manufacturers of photolithographs is the Dutch ASML. Japanese Nikon and Canon make much less perfect. The world center for the production of microchips on these same photolithographs is located in Taiwan.

Domestic projects of our own photolithographs appeared 10–12 years ago, but then, for some reason, it was decided to freeze this direction. Just defrosted now. At the Zelenograd Nanotechnology Center, by order of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, they began to develop a machine for a 130-nm process. According to the most conservative estimates, it will take up to ten years. It is one thing to create a working prototype and quite another to ensure the smooth operation of already serial products.

The second project focuses on a photolithograph for the 350nm process technology. Such chips are in great demand, for example, in the defense industry. Until recently, the military-industrial complex generally managed 600-nm and even micron microprocessors.


Mikron plant in Zelenograd. The most advanced microprocessors in Russia are made here. Source: Zelenograd-info.rf

The problem is that Russia is not able to 100 percent replace all production chains and components with its own raw materials. Even if you manage to create your own photolithograph, you will have to form an entire industry of consumables and components. For example, the liquid photoresist needed to develop a “pattern” on a silicon chip is produced by a few companies in the world.

Of course, all this story will operate at a loss, there can be no talk of any market relations. The state will have to subsidize both the production of microchips and the assembly of future photolithographs. Most of the products will go to government agencies, since there is practically no wide market for domestic microprocessor technology.

Russia needs its own photolithograph not at the end of the current millennium, but in two or three years. The resource of imported equipment will soon run out, and the entire microelectronic industry will simply stop. Of course, you can buy something from the Chinese, but even they will not deliver their most modern developments to Russia. Moreover, not everything is in order with the development of microprocessor machines in our neighbors.

Beijing has long been under "photolithographic" sanctions, and is not yet able to independently produce products smaller than the 45-nanometer process technology. A case in point is Huawei, which was banned by Trump in 2018 from placing orders for microchips on Taiwanese TSML. As a result, stagnation and loss of the market relative to more successful competitors. Whether Huawei will be able to get out of the hole is unknown, but the company has already patented a photolithograph for a 10-nanometer process technology. However, it can take years from a patent to a finished sample.

Dutch ASML has been developing breakthrough photolithographs at extreme ultraviolet (EUV) for at least twenty years, allowing chips to be printed using 5-nanometer technologies and even lower. And such a project cost about 20 billion dollars.

Here is a photolithograph swung at Rosatom. We are talking about the project of the National Center for Physics and Mathematics in Sarov, created by presidential decree.


EUV photolithograph from ASML. Source: ravenfile.com

A little more theory. Why create EUV at all?

It's all about the wavelength of ultraviolet used in conventional photolithographs - about 120-140 nanometers. Physical laws do not allow, even with all possible tricks, to create topology chips below 40–65 nm. ASML decided to radically reduce the operating wavelength of radiation to 13,5 nm, that is, they actually went down to soft X-rays. In order not to frighten anyone, the technology was given the name "extreme ultraviolet".

On paper, everything is simple - less wavelength, less resolution. Print chips down to 2nm. The main difficulties arise with the radiation itself - 13,5-nm X-ray waves absorb everything, from air to lenses. The optics were replaced with a system of high-tech mirrors, which only the German Carl Zeiss can make in the world. In short, the roughness on each such product should not exceed 1 nm. Of course, photolithography is possible only under conditions of high vacuum, which creates additional difficulties for both developers and technologists. The radiation itself is formed after a powerful laser bombards a drop of tin, which turns into a plasma that generates the desired 13,5-nm wave.

In general, the project of a home-grown EUV photolithograph is comparable in complexity to the space program. This is a real challenge for both Russian industry and scientific organizations. According to Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences Alexander Sergeev, there are domestic developments in X-ray mirrors at the Institute of Physics of Microstructures, and Rosatom is ready to provide multikilowatt lasers.

In parallel, the Institute of Applied Physics created a “prototype prototype” of a photolithograph that allows creating chips using 7-nanometer technology. But, we repeat, years, if not decades, can pass from the creation of a prototype to a serial product.


National Center for Physics and Mathematics in Sarov. Source: atomic-energy.ru

Even more revolutionary is the project of maskless X-ray nanolithography, which is being developed at the National Research Center "Kurchatov Institute" and the Moscow Institute of Electronic Technology. A prototype is already ready, testing of which will begin in 2026-2027.

good News and forecasts regarding the prospects of the first domestic photolithograph are still more than bad. But our industry has recently habitually shifted the timing of the creation of finished products strongly to the right. This applies in particular to aviation, automotive and other critical industries. Whether microelectronics will be on this sad list, time will tell.
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  1. for
    +27
    14 February 2023 04: 45
    It is urgent to call Chubais, he will arrange the matter as it should. However, there are enough of them.
    1. +46
      14 February 2023 07: 51
      Quote: for
      It is urgent to call Chubais, he will arrange the matter as it should. However, there are enough of them.

      Do not call Chubais, but raise Beria from the grave. But where is she, his grave ... And Beria could have done it in a five-year period, or even faster. Only 1 years have passed from Hiroshima to RDS-4.
      1. +35
        14 February 2023 08: 28
        . And Beria could have done it in a five-year period, or even faster.

        Before Beria was Lenin and Stalin. And state ownership of everything. And it was possible to maneuver the inevitable unprofitability of some industries at the expense of others, transferring profits to the right places.
        Try to do it now, when a private trader invests his money much more profitably, and not where the country needs it. "The market has decided everything." So much so that re-sticking Chinese labels on your own is much more profitable than risking creating production.
        1. +1
          14 February 2023 08: 54
          Now this is done through taxes and preferences.
          One VAT is enough, which
          all goes to Moscow, and then, if, suddenly oozes into the regions
          45% of the budget revenue.
          -Money doesn't matter here.
          And Beria will not help.
          Launched a long time ago
          1. +7
            14 February 2023 10: 27
            Quote from Digger
            And Beria will not help.

            Beria, if you have not forgotten, in addition to the nuclear missile project, he also oversaw organs. First, personally, as a people's commissar, and then as a secretary of the Central Committee and a member of the Politburo, whose portfolio included, in addition to the nuclear missile project, party supervision of the bodies. So who did not want to voluntarily, they worked forcibly. Although ... I would like to look at someone who would dare to say "no" to Beria. Well, except, of course, Stalin himself.
            1. +17
              14 February 2023 14: 30
              I wonder how the Dutch with capitalism and without Beria coped with the task?
              1. -3
                14 February 2023 21: 53
                I wonder how the Dutch with capitalism and without Beria coped with the task?
                But did they do anything besides the cheese of the same name and a lithograph with foreign components?
                1. -6
                  14 February 2023 22: 02
                  Do you think that creating the best lithographers in the world is not an achievement? Especially for such a small country. And the use of foreign components is absolutely normal and correct practice. It is easier and cheaper to buy what you need than to suffer and create analogues. The whole world lives like this.
                  1. +13
                    14 February 2023 22: 52
                    That's not just about "such a small country." It is written in black and white that this is the result of international cooperation of a large number of Western countries, and it was possible to build a factory in Luxembourg.
                    1. +5
                      15 February 2023 09: 23
                      So I wrote above that all complex technologies are created in international cooperation.
                      1. +11
                        15 February 2023 12: 59
                        So I wrote above that all complex technologies are created in international cooperation.

                        If in our country the same ideological people as the Bolsheviks come to power, and even with their heads, nationalize the largest and most important industries for the country, and put smart professionals at the head of industries and enterprises, then our country will not immediately master the production of modern photolithographs in order to to compensate for their cost, they will begin to produce their own microchips, in parallel with this, they will begin to master the production of domestic televisions and household appliances, cars and aircraft, laptops and smartphones, military and space equipment and will start selling them not only in our country, but also in friendly countries such as Iran , North Korea and Cuba. The EurAsEC countries will also buy products with our microchips and create their own products from our own microchips. If we manage to create a 10 nm microchip in the foreseeable future, then we will be able to sell them to China with its market, but ONLY ready-made chips, without technology, as well as to India, Pakistan and Iran and many others.
                        Many countries, having seen the REAL development of our economy and our successes, will want to be friends with us, cooperate and trade.
                        Only the current government, of course, is not capable of this, this thieves can only rob their people and eat, eat and rob and along the way showing a picture of a prosperous life in our country.
                      2. +10
                        15 February 2023 14: 24
                        Quote: ramzay21
                        If the same ideological people as the Bolsheviks come to power in our country, and even with their heads, nationalize the largest and most important industries for the country, and put smart professionals at the head of industries and enterprises

                        If my grandmother had...
                        You have a lot of ifs, this is not even fulfilled in the movies.
                    2. +2
                      17 February 2023 10: 05
                      A lot of things have been created in the Netherlands, for example, booking, tom tom, Unilever, flower business, Asml, Akzo Nobel, Philips, one of the largest seaports in the world, Shell and much more)))
                    3. -1
                      18 February 2023 14: 39
                      Well, how is it that such an adult uncle writes such nonsense.
                      Have you heard about Philips (nxp)? Their development budget is larger than our defense budget.

                      Apparently, the whole strength of the Russians is that they have no idea about what is happening in small countries that are zhiaut for the sake of life and development, and not imperial aelism.
                      1. 0
                        24 February 2023 12: 18
                        The company's turnover has always hovered around $20 billion, earnings from negative, -3 billion, to +1 billion recently. How can this be compared with 60 billion of Russia's defense budget?
                        Philips lost its technological greatness at the turn of the millennium, after that, in strict accordance with market laws, the company living "for the sake of life and development" sawed the branch on which it sat, for the sake of momentary profit, giving competencies to China, Japan and so on. countries with imperial habits. And in fact, it has become a highly specialized medical company, living on other people's brains and labor, and cutting off royalties on trademark patents from the times of bygone greatness.
                      2. -2
                        April 20 2023 10: 50
                        From the point of view of the semi-literate, small countries on the ball invent and live as they want. Only the illiterate are unaware that small countries are ALLOWED to live like this. Moreover, they allow so far NOT ALL SMALL COUNTRIES.
                  2. +4
                    14 February 2023 22: 53
                    Troll hard. So smart? Go and buy, and we'll see who sells to you.
                    1. -8
                      15 February 2023 09: 26
                      And I go and buy. When I need a phone, for example, I go to the store, pay money and buy. Are you having problems with this? Are you embarrassed to go to the store and do everything for yourself at home? Did you personally machine the gadget from which you write comments from a piece of iron?
                      1. 0
                        22 February 2023 21: 06
                        Idiot. Strategic technologies are not sold for any money. You seem to have gray matter problems.
                      2. 0
                        16 March 2023 13: 38
                        and he only has enough money for a can of beer. winked this is where all the crap flows out onto the fan
                  3. +5
                    17 February 2023 16: 27
                    Well, firstly, no "whole world" lives like that. Only that part of the world that the States managed to build "lives" like that. From which, for the time being, not everyone has been able to escape (including due to the technological DEPENDENCE IMPOSED on them by "such a world" literally ON EVERYTHING. to make them...

                    I would like to hope that the author, raising the current topic of PHOTOlithography, already understands well and knows that this concept, as it were "by itself", includes such a process of LITHOGRAPHY as ELL (electron-beam lithography), with "all" from here flowing"...

                    Both for the manufacture of microcircuits with over high degrees of integration and EP (I try not to abuse the term "microchip" ...), so, in fact, for the design and manufacture of equipment to ensure the SERIAL implementation of ELL TECHNOLOGY in the production of microcircuits, along with the use of PHOTOlithography technologies ...

                    By the way ...

                    The aforementioned "production" of "photo" templates is preceded by their DEVELOPMENT and MANUFACTURE OF THE ORIGINAL (according to the "digital matrix"). From what, then, as a matter of fact, a "set of working templates" is made for mass production ...

                    And there are doubts that Taiwan, as the main "manufacturer" of templates, is also a world leader in their development ...

                    In short, if you want to be free and independent in THIS WORLD, keep SOVEREIGNTY IN EVERYTHING. And the ability to develop and produce the entire line of microelectronic components and equipment for their production. And I am ready to incur GREAT COSTS related to the VERY HIGH COST OF PROVISION required for SERIAL PRODUCTION OF THE ENTIRE REQUIRED nomenclature of HIGHLY RELIABLE microelectronic components of the PRODUCTION ENVIRONMENT. And creating a "background" of STAFF OF ALL LEVELS for work at ALL stages of the LIFE CYCLE of the existence of a microelectronic component. From its development, serial production, operation and to disposal...
                2. +9
                  14 February 2023 22: 38
                  did anything?
                  Marine cranes Mammoet, which lifted the "Kursk" - there were no domestic ones. DAF trucks, behind which, unlike KAMAZ trucks, there is a queue.
                  cheese of the same name
                  And here everything is much more fun - they produce not only cheese, but also production lines for milk, and also cultivate dairy cultures-sourdough. As a result, real per capita GDP there is 4 times higher than in Russia.
                  1. 0
                    15 February 2023 00: 52
                    And half of the goods for Europe - through the port of Rotterdam. And diamonds from Yakutia are resold in Amsterdam. And their own gas from Gröningen, 25 lard cubic meters a year. And the European gas exchange is in the same place. Trade - zto you do not produce!
                    1. +4
                      15 February 2023 09: 32
                      And it is best to trade and produce.
                      1. 0
                        2 December 2023 23: 08
                        Let's compare the volume of industrial output per capita - Dutch and Russian. At least at prices, at least in kind wink And I also made a profit per capita from the sale of raw materials... You will be very surprised...
                  2. +2
                    15 February 2023 08: 38
                    Marine cranes Mammoet, which lifted the "Kursk" - there were no domestic ones. DAF trucks, behind which, unlike KAMAZ trucks, there is a queue.
                    It is, of course, true, but the components are really all Dutch?
                    1. 0
                      15 February 2023 09: 31
                      What difference does it make where the components come from? They will write that they are Dutch, there will immediately be a person who will ask "Are the raw materials for components also Dutch"? All companies take where it is better and cheaper. It is unprofitable to produce everything by ourselves.
                      1. +8
                        18 February 2023 12: 08
                        Your question is stretched "naive" ...

                        As from "forgetfulness", which does not allow you, in the context of components, to remind the VO forum that the USSR and its CMEA partners (let's keep silent about the VD ...) have been under the embargo of the COCOM "list" for DECADES ...

                        The mentioned "profitability" in the context of the "determining" criterion is good, if you work EXCLUSIVELY for SALE. In other words, on the so-called. "free" market, not clogged with systematic, "sanctions" of a political nature ...

                        You, at your "multinational" firm, do not know about this? ..

                        When you (the economy of your country) work IN THE FIRST TURN, FOR YOURSELF, i.e. to ENSURE YOUR PERSONAL ABILITY TO PRODUCE EVERYTHING OBJECTIVELY NECESSARY TO ENSURE YOUR INDEPENDENCE AND SOVEREIGNTY, "profitability" fades into the "second plan" ...

                        In addition, even with a completely competitive price for your product, on the INTERNATIONAL market and your ability to reliably ensure its supply, you will still be thrown out of this "market" by "sanctions" of a PURELY POLITICAL orientation ...

                        Which, by the way, is now observed in relation to Russia and the subjects of its economic activity ...

                        So, you should not take the VO forum into the world of "beautiful, armchair, economic, fairy tales" about "correct" economies and "correct cooperation" ... Especially TODAY, when EVERYTHING IS CLEAR, VISIBLE and UNDERSTOOD, take away
                      2. +2
                        18 February 2023 15: 22
                        It turns out that we will not have a sales market for such products, production will be unprofitable, but how profitable is it to buy in other countries? When creating the USSR, Stalin proceeded that high-tech products would not be sold to us. What changed? First, our production was destroyed, then sales were stopped. Nobody can help us except ourselves.
                      3. +4
                        20 February 2023 14: 03
                        The main market for such equipment in Russia will be the Russian branch of production of microelectronic components. And Balarusian, by the way, too ...

                        Also "Integral", which has a complete production and technological cycle (from the production of plates to the production of sealed "case" products), Lukashenka did not let it fall apart ...

                        And the need for domestic microelectronic components in the domestic Russian market will OBJECTIVELY, steadily grow ...

                        For ANY modern equipment produced by the branches of machine and apparatus building will be built on them. In any field, from space and defense, to medicine, pharmacology and banal "everyday life" ...
                    2. 0
                      15 February 2023 10: 02
                      As an example of international cooperation, I will take the equipment on which I work. The head office of the manufacturer and parts of the key components are in the USA, pressure control equipment is in Canada, the engine is in Italy, the instruments are in Great Britain, the plant where the unit is assembled is the same Holland. About small things, I generally keep quiet.
                      1. +5
                        18 February 2023 15: 27
                        Sanctions were imposed on the country, and YOU are talking about cooperation. With whom? Even the cheapest cooperation does not work. We are cheap gas, and oil with timber, we have papers in the form of dollars and euros for which we cannot buy anything.
                    3. -1
                      16 February 2023 12: 07
                      Dear and you were in Holland. There, Moscow is larger than all of Holland, but it didn’t even stand nearby.
                    4. 0
                      2 December 2023 23: 09
                      Where is the queue for DAF? In Siberia ? wink
                  3. +1
                    17 February 2023 07: 24
                    Holland is the 2nd importer in the world of food and vegetables, they have half the country in greenhouses, and their merchants, earning money from trade, invested in the country, created dams and windmills to pump out water, and increased the country's area by almost a third. Compare this with growing oligarchs who do not care about the Russian Federation.
                    1. +1
                      18 February 2023 12: 11
                      But nevertheless, Russian LOCAL producers quite create competition in the regions (still in "separate places" ...) for the same Dutch in the sale of "holiday flowers" ...
                    2. +2
                      19 February 2023 12: 20
                      Let's compare their rich people not now, but at the moment when capital was being accumulated. At that time, they were no different from our modern suddenly rich nouveaux riches. Also, first of all, they covered their personal interests and tried to further enrich themselves at any cost. It's just that these rich people are already there
                      long ago they had everything that our nouveau riche still want and what they did not have. Time will pass, and some of our rich people are already investing in the development of our country. It is very interesting, but now you have suddenly become rich, and based on this, what would you start doing? Build a house for yourself, living in Khrushchev and buy one or two cars and a summer house somewhere on the Cote d'Azur in warm countries and satisfy your other needs of your wife and children, and Wishlist based on the opportunities that you were given a lot of money or you will immediately begin to invest in interests of the country?
                3. +3
                  15 February 2023 10: 57
                  Yes, they do a lot, for example, Philips, NXP Semiconductors, Shell, the aviation industry is developed as part of Airbus, Yandex is registered in the Netherlands and you say so to assemble a lithograph with foreign components, it would be so easy that at least in the USA and China they would do this, but here the industry is more difficult than launching rockets into space.
                4. -1
                  16 February 2023 23: 43
                  The economy of the Netherlands has gained a good reputation due to world-famous companies, major firms, concerns, such as: Royal Dutch-Shell (extraction and processing of oil, as well as other energy resources); Unilever (food products, household chemicals, cosmetics, perfumery); "Philips" (household electrical engineering, electrical equipment); AKZO-Nobel (chemicals), Hoogovens (metallurgy), Fokker (aircraft industry), DAF Trucks (automotive industry), Rhine-Schelde-Verolme (shipbuilding), Ferenichde mashinenfabriken (mechanical engineering) .
              2. +4
                15 February 2023 14: 04
                Quote from: Derbes19
                I wonder how the Dutch with capitalism and without Beria coped with the task?

                No way. The Dutch didn't make it. Lithographic ASML is a joint venture with Philips, and its main supplier is the German Zeiss. The parent company ASM International is Dutch only formally. ASM International is headquartered in Almere, the Netherlands. The company has research and development centers in Almere (Netherlands), Helsinki (Finland), Leuven (Belgium, near IMEC), Phoenix (Arizona), Tama (Japan) and Dongtan (South Korea). Production mainly takes place in Singapore and Dongtan (South Korea). As of 2021, the company has 3312 employees located in 14 countries.

                When critics like you ask such "tricky questions" they actively "forget" that the USSR existed in conditions of severe technological isolation and permanent sanctions for almost its entire history. Therefore, he carried out all his developments himself. And various "Dutch", "Belgian", "Korean" and other miraculous technologies are ALWAYS a joint development of several countries within the framework of international cooperation.
                1. +1
                  15 February 2023 14: 24
                  From your answer, it is obvious that the Dutch did a great job. Created an international concern. Great job. And I wrote about international cooperation above. This is a very sensible policy. At the expense of the USSR, I did not write anything at all. Moreover, everything was not so clear-cut.
                  1. +8
                    17 February 2023 23: 25
                    Quote from: Derbes19
                    From your answer, it is obvious that the Dutch did a great job. Created an international concern. Great job. And I wrote about international cooperation above. This is a very sensible policy. At the expense of the USSR, I did not write anything at all. Moreover, everything was not so clear-cut.


                    In the USSR, as in Russia, everything is extremely clear. We are under ongoing technological sanctions. Neither the USSR nor the Russian Federation can, for reasons beyond their control, create cooperative projects. What did the Dutch do? With a choice of components according to the catalogs of foreign companies? Or with an order from Zeiss optics with the right parameters? Or with the transfer of development to someone else's intellectual base?
                    Smart policy? Are you seriously? I don't know what country you work in and what government you work for, but there have been attempts by our developers to follow this "reasonable policy". All 90s and 2000s. As a rule, they always ended in the same way: artificial inhibition of domestic developments and the establishment of a "technological ceiling" by Western countries, which our enterprises were simply not allowed to exceed, refusing to supply equipment. And the field of microelectronics is the clearest example of this. This same Dutch ASML has never agreed to supply its equipment to Russia. Moreover, by hook or by crook, the supply of ANY lithographs, even from the secondary market, was blocked.
                    I am silent about what your "reasonable policy" turned out to be for our shipbuilding, aircraft building, machine tool building, and automotive industry. There, the admirals are still winding snot on their fists while running and looking for diesel engines for new ships. Why? But because they listened to people like you, who were broadcasting about "reasonable politics." Now everyone is trying to clean up the consequences of your "reasonable policy" in a fire order.

                    Quote from: Derbes19
                    The head office of the manufacturer and parts of the key components are in the USA, pressure control equipment is in Canada, the engine is in Italy, the instruments are in Great Britain, the plant where the unit is assembled is the same Holland. About small things, I generally keep quiet.


                    Well, what is the merit of YOUR compatriots? That they lured a company from the USA to their country? So for this you do not need to be either a scientist or an engineer. You do not need to have a developed scientific base. Just being poor is enough. Provide cheap labor and lack of social obligations for the owners of the enterprise. As it was in Southeast Asia.
                    The Dutch, of course, were not beggars, but it is unlikely that they could ever have independently developed a lithograph from scratch. All their "brilliance" is based on the fact that they are GIVED READY technologies.
                    And they NEVER let us. Even for money.
                2. -2
                  15 February 2023 14: 49
                  When critics like you ask such "tricky questions" they actively "forget" that the USSR existed in conditions of severe technological isolation and permanent sanctions for almost its entire history. Therefore, he carried out all his developments himself. And various "Dutch", "Belgian", "Korean" and other miraculous technologies are ALWAYS a joint development of several countries within the framework of international cooperation.


                  Well, this is not so, the USSR was in fairly close scientific and technical cooperation with the West. Starting with industrialization as such and ending with all sorts of jet engines, KAMAZ, etc.
                  1. +6
                    17 February 2023 23: 37
                    Quote from Fabrizio
                    Well, this is not so, the USSR was in fairly close scientific and technical cooperation with the West. Starting with industrialization as such and ending with all sorts of jet engines, KAMAZ, etc.


                    So. There were isolated episodes of brief periods when these sanctions weakened. As a rule, they were associated with crises in the West. For example, a sharp increase in cooperation with the United States in the 30s is associated with the depression that broke out there.
                    KAMAZ was built during the global oil crisis of the 70s.
                    With jet engines, or rather with aircraft engines, there is generally a long story, completely ambiguous, where both Westerners and ours showed themselves from different sides.
                    But in general, it can be said that it was precisely COOPERATION, that is, joint work for one goal, that the USSR and the West almost never had (except perhaps space). There were limited scientific and technical contacts, occasional supplies of equipment. But the West has always followed the "technological ceiling" and full-fledged technological cooperation with some of our enterprises was out of the question.
                3. -4
                  17 February 2023 00: 14
                  Quote: abc_alex
                  When critics like you ask such "tricky questions" they actively "forget" that the USSR existed in conditions of severe technological isolation and permanent sanctions for almost its entire history. Therefore, he carried out all his developments himself.


                  Among the most striking own developments are the legendary "one and a half" GAZ (American "Ford"), the "three-ton" ZiS (American "Autocar"), the T-27 tankette (British "Carden-Loyd"), the T-26 tank (British " Vickers"), BT tank (American "Christie"), M-100 aircraft engines and subsequent upgrades for all Soviet fighters with liquid-cooled engines, SB and Pe-2 bombers (French "Hispana-Suiza"), the leader of the destroyers "Tashkent" ( launched in fascist Italy), the legendary "forty-five" (German "Rheinmetall"), the legendary 76-mm and 85-mm anti-aircraft guns (also "Rheinmetall"), the legendary transport aircraft Li-2 (American "Douglas"), 100- mm naval gun B-34, from which guns for the SU-100 and T-54/55 (Italian OTO) later grew, etc.
                  1. +3
                    17 February 2023 23: 44
                    Read above.
                    The prototype of the T-26 tank, yes, was delivered, but the supply of the T-28 prototype was already furnished with such conditions that they set a technological ceiling.
                    The Christie tank never existed (or rather, it was, two copies and didn’t go further than the US test sites) the “Christie pendant”, which was considered unpromising and unnecessary, was put in the USSR. Steel box with motor and suspension. A tank was already made from it in Kharkov.
                    Yes, there were, of course, there were periods of close technical cooperation. But these were always episodes. To your list, I can add entire refineries that the States supplied to the USSR during the war, and which made it possible to obtain high-octane gasoline.
                4. The comment was deleted.
                5. 0
                  7 May 2023 08: 34
                  Actually, Holland is a historical region of the Netherlands .. This is one and the same state .. The official name of the state is the Netherlands ..
              3. +2
                15 February 2023 17: 11
                when they stepped into capitalism, feudalism only began to strengthen in our country. Stalin's quote about running, you probably know
              4. +1
                16 February 2023 22: 49
                Just hit the topic, there is no antitrust law in the world obliging to divide the world market! The best idea can lead to a monopoly: Windows for example from this series.
                The US chief decided that at the state level they monitor the topics of dominance in the world and take these topics under their wing, embedding them in the global commodity chains under their control! This is US government policy. The Dutch gave the world the best technology, the USA took it under control and guardianship, now there is nowhere without them and only with the permission of the USA, because their equipment uses critical technologies from the USA, and therefore the Dutch sell their equipment only with the permission of the USA!
              5. +2
                17 February 2023 05: 10
                The possibilities of modern lithographic processes are based on the developments and research of our scientists, which they announced in the early 2000s. Previously, it was believed that technical processes are tied to the wavelength and it is impossible to reduce the technical process without developing a new light source with a shorter wavelength. The research of our scientists made it possible to develop equipment and theoretical foundations in the further development of equipment, allowing the use of technical processes many times smaller than the wavelength of the reference radiation source
              6. -1
                17 February 2023 21: 59
                But you would ask the Dutch how many decades have passed from the decision to start development to the receipt of the first lithographic mask at 13,5 nm.
              7. 0
                April 20 2023 06: 16
                Each technology at the time of youth and youth of its life cycle is relatively simple and entry barriers are low, so that many can try to create their production "in the garage", thousands of entrepreneurs around the world try to sell their developments and a few successful ones achieve success by entering into lucrative long-term contracts, which allow them to develop, many of them go bankrupt... meanwhile technology matures, complexity grows, barriers rise and one day reach a level similar to rocket and aircraft propulsion. Long before that, absolutely all capitalists step aside and only the state can solve the problem.
            2. +3
              14 February 2023 15: 55
              Quote: Nagan
              Beria, if you have not forgotten

              of course I didn't forget
              since the beginning of February 1942, he has been in control of the tank industry and has been engaged in the defense of the Caucasus.
              From May 1944 to September 1945 - also Deputy Chairman of the State Defense Committee (production of aircraft, mortars, certain types of weapons)
              "Special Committee No. 2".
              +
              Gegechkori Sergey Alekseevich (like GOS and RL for KS-1 and S-25).
              ----------------------------------------
              I repeat:
              Quote from Digger

              -Money doesn't matter here.
              And Beria will not help.

              though
              Give them $1 in cash.
              "What would Beria oversee" is necessary:
              -to have Beria (and where from? Have you seen your current ones?)
              - it is necessary that 10-15 years pass after "1934" with all the associated costs
              - you need to defeat Germany, England, Taiwan (better than the USA), take the "heads" out of there and
              [quote Trophy teams sent more than two and a half thousand dismantled industrial enterprises from Germany to the USSR] [/ quote]
          2. +2
            15 February 2023 13: 37
            Quote from Digger
            Now this is done through taxes and preferences.
            One VAT is enough, which
            all goes to Moscow, and then, if, suddenly oozes into the regions
            45% of the budget revenue.


            No, it's not being done. Never and nowhere. US microelectronics arose exclusively on government orders in the interests of the military. "Silicon Valley" for the first 15 years was a completely military enterprise.
            And Japanese, Korean and Chinese microelectronics began as POLITICALLY motivated US projects. And they began with the mass export of technologies and industries.
            If you have studied economics in any way, then all the absurdity of your statement would be obvious to you. Only a person ignorant of basic economic concepts can hope that some kind of tax preferences are able to provide their own production with higher profitability than buying and reselling.
            1. -3
              15 February 2023 19: 26
              Quote: abc_alex
              If you have studied economics in any way, then all the absurdity of your statement would be obvious to you. Only a person ignorant of basic economic concepts can hope that some kind of tax preferences are able to provide their own production with higher profitability than buying and reselling.

              I got it.
              "You need to call a little mind a fool"
              and about SV...

              I will not disturb Frederick Terman, but I will remind you
              The first startup in Silicon Valley was HP, founded in 1939 in Palo Alto. It was created by Stanford graduates David Packard and William Hewlett, and they were aimed at producing low-frequency oscillators with an incandescent lamp. With a starting capital of just over $500, the guys were able to find buyers for their products for as much as $54, and the next model went for more than $70.


              and National Semiconductor. The company that produced semiconductor products, analog amplifiers, monitor drivers and much more, appeared back in 1959, but not in Silicon Valley, but in the state of Connecticut, then, almost gurgled, but surfaced and swam into that very tower in SV

              Quote: abc_alex
              "Silicon Valley" for the first 15 years was a completely military enterprise.

              Yes Yes.
              In 1885, on their 8000-acre (3300 hectares) ranch near Palo Alto, they began building a campus, and in 1891, Leland Stanford Junior University officially opened.
              boy Leland will not be allowed to lie ..
              Quote: abc_alex
              Never anywhere else.

              “Never say never.”
              Charles Dickens's Pickwick Papers (1837).
              1. +1
                15 February 2023 20: 29
                Quote: abc_alex
                If you have studied economics in any way,

                flew away earlier, condolences.
                it doesn't matter that TEXAS INSTRUMENTS TPS92210 or TMS320C300GEL is manufactured for military order or for civilians.
                The essence is one:
                in the USA there is no parasitic VAT, but in the Russian Federation there is
                there is only (and not everywhere) a sales tax (which is a big difference), and it goes not to Washington, but to the state and local deputies)
                Delaware (0% state and 0% local);
                Montana (0% state and 0% local);
                New Hampshire (0% state and 0% local);
                Oregon (0% state and 0% local);
                Alaska (0% state and 0%-7.85% local).
                this plate will tell you better about income / salaries / taxes

                after the shock of the satellite launch in 1957 In 1958, the President of the United States signed a special act in support of the Small Business Agency (SBA)
                https://www.sba.gov/
                Even Bidon has now allocated $2 billion.
                And how much will the military eat? 100000?
                If we need to make a simple microcircuit, then we need to make 32nm masks worth $5 million each for its manufacture — Then it can be profitable if this microcircuit is then produced in a circulation of tens and hundreds of millions of copies. And if we (the military) need only 100 microcircuits, then it is more profitable to save on masks and produce a microcircuit using the “thickest” technology.
                Until recently, the F-22 Raptor flew on an Intel 960mx processor, according to 1000-1500nm standards, then they were honored with a BAE Systems Electronics RAD750 (from 110 MHz to 200 MHz PM), which, due to small-scale production, costs $ 200 thousand (for warriors) / 250 nm up to 150 nm
                150 RAD750s have been used in various spacecraft.

                and the same (but the same (but but))SPEEDSMOPOWERTORPCOL750UPSMOVOTORPCAMHO450UPSCHOMHZOMHZOurshimi was worth less than $1999 in 495 for 1,000 citizens
                366 MHz - $381,
                333 MHz - $286
                No matter how. However, you, as an economist, an electronist, a Japaneseist and a silicon dolinist, you yourself know all this. What do I teach "knowledgeable"
                Military and space microcircuits: the situation is always aggravated by small-scale production - and on its own initiative, the plant becomes extremely nafig to develop something: conditionally spend $ 1 million on development, and buyers need only 10 microcircuits. How much should they be sold for? 100'000$? 200'000$?
                But they will refuse (the F-22 was promised 2000, but they rolled up their lip to <200) or what kind of scandal on lobbying?
                better than Samsung: "they will buy it anyway" = 259 million in 2022.
                1. +2
                  17 February 2023 08: 52
                  the situation is always exacerbated by small-scale

                  There may be a way out in the maskless technology for manufacturing processors, which is being developed in the Russian Federation.
            2. +3
              17 February 2023 07: 39
              hope that some tax preferences

              Just the same, you are wrong, preferences are not a panacea and will not create miracles, but they are able to determine the direction of development. In the states in the 50s, the state took 90% of the profits if the owners did not invest profits in their factories, thereby forcing private traders to invest in updating funds. Placing orders increases the domestic market and employment. In contrast, Potanin has not invested anything in Norilsk Nickel for 30 years, which resulted in a diesel spill on the rivers.
          3. 0
            16 February 2023 07: 45
            but this is manipulation ... another throwing everything into Moscow and St. Petersburg ... no, my friend, no ...
            on what shishi is the second bam branch built?
            what are the costs of building roads in siberia, the far east, the european part?
            and social payments for what shisha?
            something you fart into a puddle from the category ...

            a little to think? and... probably it's not yours... alas (
            1. -1
              16 February 2023 10: 40
              Citizen! Don't step on your feet.
              VAT goes to Moscow.
              Your incoherent muttering suggests that you never paid it.
              Then from Moscow, if and when, where by September (August) there is a partial reverse flow of VAT to the regions.
              That is why the asphalt is being repaired in November, after the first snow.
              On the "shishi" and build.
              I don’t know about puddles, perversions have never attracted me, you be careful, in puddles, don’t catch a subordinate clause and. Bladder.
              a little to think? and... probably it's not yours... alas (

              I regretted not starting to answer.
              Oh well.
              Get well soon.
          4. +1
            18 February 2023 00: 18
            Quote from Digger
            Beria will not help.
            Launched a long time ago


            At least they do something, it's already good ...
        2. +9
          14 February 2023 10: 06
          The main goal of the capitalist is to obtain the greatest profit by any means, there is no question of anything else.
          1. +4
            15 February 2023 04: 10
            It always amazes me how roads are being repaired now. Conditionally, roll the asphalt. There are guests, technologies, how much and what needs to be added and mixed so that the asphalt serves. Components cost a certain amount of money. All this is considered, the volume, mileage is expensive and for the competition. Let's say a meter of road costs 10 rubles for all technologies. The state is announcing a competition for 000 rubles to repair the road. Private traders come out and trade. How, where everything is calculated (meter of the road), should a private trader make a profit? The state does not provide for it. Initially a violation of technology?
        3. +3
          15 February 2023 11: 53
          Quote: dauria
          And state ownership of everything.

          While the thieves' godfather sits on the economy, all dreams of the revival of Russia are a bluff. The main trouble is that there is no real force capable of removing the thieves from the echelons of power. You have to give credit to the Americans. They fashioned a monster out of geeks that is eating Russia from the inside.
          This is how the implanted, "colonial democracy" looks like, until these "termites" destroy the state.
          When will we wake up?
          1. +2
            19 February 2023 07: 46
            The modern financial and economic model is based on a speculative scheme. All banks, stock exchanges, floating exchange rates, etc. are essentially tied to the Fed, i.e. to the dollar. Plus the hydrocarbon basis of the economy.
            The main feature of capitalism is the extraction of maximum profit. Everything else is subject to conditional conscience. The capitalists themselves.
        4. 0
          17 March 2023 01: 46
          Quote: dauria
          re-sticking Chinese labels on your own is much more profitable

          Glue, and it's time to create your own

          Russian photolithographer - the impossible is possible


          Russian production of microelectronics pleases.
      2. +7
        14 February 2023 10: 32
        Quote: Nagan
        Raise Beria from the grave. But where is she, his grave ... And Beria could have done it in five years, or even faster

        Beria was an excellent organizer, and the time was harsh, but apparently there are no miracles in science and industry ...
        Work in the nuclear field began in the USSR since the beginning of the 30s, only the stage of practical implementation took at least seven years (1942-1949), and this was under Iosif Vissarionovich and Lavrenty Pavlovich ...
        1. +5
          14 February 2023 11: 34
          you still need to consider how much technology is obtained through industrial espionage)
        2. +8
          14 February 2023 17: 40
          but miracles in science and industry apparently do not happen ...

          Yes and more:
          Roosevelt is not the president now, but Stalin's intelligence officers in the USA were not from entities like Chapman

          Leonid Romanovich Kvasnikov is not there.
          Yes, and "Emil Klaus Fuchs and Theodor Hall" is already different
          1. 0
            17 February 2023 15: 26
            What was wrong with Chapman? Or, in your opinion, should only 007 be taken into reconnaissance? So you look at Richard Sorge.
      3. -4
        14 February 2023 18: 12
        Without the American-English developments, pioneered by the good Western Samaritans, Beria would not have succeeded so quickly (or would not have succeeded at all;))
      4. fiv
        +7
        15 February 2023 14: 14
        RDS-1 began in 1942. And besides Beria there were Khlopin, Vannikov, Zavenyagin, Ioffe, Kurchatov and many, many more Scientists and Engineers. AND NOT A SINGLE MANAGER AND MARKETING. And then there was no Toyota production system, and they did not write karakuri. and yes, there was industrial espionage - amazing and effective, and there was an idea for which people consciously gave their lives.
        1. +2
          18 February 2023 09: 36
          Quote: fiv
          there was an idea for which people consciously gave their lives
          People gave their lives for their land, their family from time immemorial. And today they are fighting the enemy, and some are dying in this war. Only certain individuals, of whom there are surprisingly many here, need a special "idea" to justify their cowardice, perhaps, a purely consumer attitude towards their homeland, which owes him everything, and he owes her nothing, or to create pacifist sentiments and protests against the NWO on the eve of a radical change in the military conflict.
      5. -4
        15 February 2023 23: 36
        Beria is an enemy of the people!

        On June 26, 1953, Beria was arrested on charges of treason in the form of espionage and conspiracy to seize power. On December 23, 1953, he was shot by the verdict of the Special Judicial Presence of the Supreme Court of the USSR.
        By the definition of the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation of May 29, 2002, Beria, as the organizer of political repressions, was recognized as not subject to rehabilitation.

        PS: As Putin said, some shady personalities are now trying to rewrite history and call black - white.
        1. fiv
          +2
          16 February 2023 15: 54
          The projects entrusted to Beria were fully implemented. Now a statesman with such efficiency can only dream of. And there is no less blood on the hands of those who judged Beria than on his. A spy is generally for kindergarten children.
      6. +1
        19 February 2023 12: 09
        Well, yes, I would have shot a bunch of people. You don't need a lot of mind here, you just need to be a moral monster.
    2. +13
      14 February 2023 17: 27
      By the way, articles about the need for some billions of dollars in technology are ridiculous to read. Let's remember where 300 lards are. And let's try to answer why the hell they were in some incomprehensible assets. I am already silent about the yachts that no one will ever return to the local oligarchs. But these infantile imbeciles played with boats and cars. All they have done in their life is nothing. They grabbed in time in the 90s what generations of a disappeared highly developed civilization created
      1. +7
        14 February 2023 18: 10
        Quote: Last centurion
        By the way, articles about the need for some billions of dollars in technology are ridiculous to read. Let's remember where 300 lards are. And let's try to answer why the hell they were in some incomprehensible assets. I am already silent about the yachts that no one will ever return to the local oligarchs. But these infantile imbeciles played with boats and cars. All they have done in their life is nothing. They grabbed in time in the 90s what generations of a disappeared highly developed civilization created

        Even more, somewhere already 330+ feel
        For these grandmas from scratch, it was mono to create two industries in Russia at once - machine tool building and microelectronics - and even "seeds" would be left good
        But ... The chapter for such a sum was simply extended by another contract ... machine tool building and microelectronics did not exist and never existed ... And I am silent that the average cost of a yacht of our "alicharhav" is equal to the cost of a plant built from scratch
        1. +3
          17 February 2023 09: 13
          For these grandmas from scratch, it was mono to create two industries at once in Russia - machine tool building and

          The oligarchs are not exactly investing in new factories, they are not even investing in old factories. For 30 years, Potanin has not invested a penny in the renovation of Nornickel, which caused the dilapidated tank to leak and an ecological disaster occurred.
          1. +1
            21 February 2023 09: 18
            And how to invest, then when you don’t know whether they will take it away today or tomorrow
            How many successful businesses were squeezed out and ruined
        2. 0
          April 10 2023 23: 18
          Why only two industries? According to various estimates, Russia received 20-4 trillion oil and gas dollars in 5 years... Enough for machine building, aircraft building, and the Martian mission.
    3. 0
      14 February 2023 17: 41
      Chubais has his own task, they heard a recession in Britain, but he has not yet begun to be nimble!
    4. +2
      18 February 2023 08: 39
      Are you itching to reward him with a hemp tie?
      So in this queue you are not at all the first, but on the other hand - there will be at least five thousand more such order holders (this is according to the amount appropriated), so the series of circumstances for the appropriation of national property may not have time to end before May 9 - you will have to appoint a new public holiday and it will be called "Income from possession of stolen goods" and this holiday will be DIGITAL!
  2. +11
    14 February 2023 04: 55
    The road will be mastered by the walking one. So while we are walking, there is still a chance to come to something. feel
    1. +1
      14 February 2023 12: 26
      "So while we're going, there's still a chance we'll get somewhere."
      we can't be led astray, we don't care where we go. if it is possible to produce 90nm processors, why don't we? why, like sheep, we fight at 2nm, if 90nm is enough for everything?
  3. +11
    14 February 2023 05: 01
    All this is very interesting, but what about the progress of our "partners"?
    The day before yesterday, for missiles for excellent, unparalleled guidance, there were enough lamps. Yesterday - transistors. Today - 180nm.
    And tomorrow will never come?
    Well, for example, neural processors are good not only for face recognition and conversation support.
    For 30 years, there was practically no competition with our partners - they had nothing to spend especially on purely military applications, and so we partnered with them with all our might.
    However, their technologies and civilian industries developed rapidly. And now there will be a transfer to the military area ...
    So its 60nm in 20 years or complete technological dependence on the best Chinese friends, friendship with which, of course, forever is not a very bright prospect...
    1. +6
      14 February 2023 06: 26
      And tomorrow will never come?

      Tomorrow always comes. Today is tomorrow, but yesterday.
    2. +3
      14 February 2023 12: 02
      60nm is already a pose-pose of yesterday (it was already used 15 years ago) and in 20 years it will be quite ancient.
      But, not everywhere you need a current "millepuselnost", the smaller the technical process, the more sensitive it is to external influences.
    3. 0
      14 February 2023 17: 48
      The West is the "golden billion" with its high technologies, while Russia is 150 million with yesterday's technologies and wasted engineering personnel. So it won't work quickly. Will have to indulge. And 2023, against the backdrop of falling export earnings, will be more difficult for people and industry, and 2024 will be even worse. And at least there will be enough food.
      1. +1
        15 February 2023 22: 11
        So the drop in income, how do you talk about it? Oil, gas, timber and many, many other things have been and are being sold abroad.
  4. +12
    14 February 2023 05: 08
    I hope by the phrase "In general, the project of a home-grown EUV photolithograph ..." you mean the following [taken from the January article by Alexei Kochetov on Pikabu.ru]

    1-Already got to the roof. The construction is clearly ahead of schedule, as the commissioning of the facility was scheduled for the end of 2024. 2.- Evil tongues said that the construction site will be mothballed after the imposition of sanctions. But, as you can see, it only accelerated.
    1. +10
      14 February 2023 07: 31
      The article is generally written in a strange way. I thought the preface and the description of the problems would end, and the description of what we were going to do with us would begin. As a result, 90% of the preface and 10% briefly about the fact that we are also doing something there, but xs. Perhaps even your comment gave more information than the article.
    2. +4
      14 February 2023 10: 36
      Yes, given that we have a huge construction industry, of course, we need to build, otherwise how to master the budget for electronics in the absence of equipment, we do what we can laughing
      1. 0
        15 February 2023 00: 48
        Quote: vadimtt
        but how to master the budget for electronics in the absence of equipment, we do what we can

        The equipment is also made and will be our own. Moreover, an installation is being made for industrial mass production, and the experimental one has already shown excellent results at 13 nanometers.
        And if we take into account that the Dutch installations work largely on the patents and technologies of our compatriots, then it is possible and necessary for us to repeat everything.
    3. +8
      14 February 2023 13: 59
      It's just a BOX. The cheapest and easiest thing that can be in a production building with technological processes. Difficulties will begin (already have already begun in fact) when the utility networks begin to be installed. Well, the most delicious will be when the installation of the production line will be, if at all
      1. -1
        21 February 2023 10: 17
        Well, yes, they built medical centers in operating rooms with sterile laminar flows (ventilation), everything is German and this is for operating rooms, but here it’s even hard to imagine what cleanliness should be
  5. +7
    14 February 2023 05: 11
    We have the experience of the USSR in the first decades! And rich experience! They created energy, metallurgy and mechanical engineering almost from scratch. Planes took off into the air, ships began to descend from the stocks, and the first cars began to roll off the assembly line!

    And all this was done in just two five-year plans, and one of them was completed in four years! They bought something, they stole something, they hired smart engineers somewhere...
    1. +4
      14 February 2023 05: 54
      We have the experience of the USSR in the first decades!
      And where is this experience now? 30 years have passed .. In front of the whole planet?
      1. +16
        14 February 2023 06: 26
        Quote: parusnik
        And where is this experience now?

        Probably, it was adopted by the Chinese, who completely repeated the path of industrialization of the USSR ...
        1. +9
          14 February 2023 10: 21
          If not for their friendly relations with the West at some point, they would never have had this technological boom.
          1. +4
            14 February 2023 15: 24
            Friendly is friendly, but the Chinese themselves have put effort into their development.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEszLMKhbOE
    2. Eug
      +9
      14 February 2023 07: 59
      Are processors expensive? But it's already passed
      True, at that time there was a completely different model of the economy - not every enterprise - a supplier of components, but the final manufacturer received profits, and this profit was determined by the state and directed where necessary, which made it possible to concentrate funds on the projects again needed by the state. Attempts to create mini-states from corporations - you yourself understand what this can lead to .. although, as for me, the Stalinist model of the economy is quite viable in the defense industry - if super profits are made on the sale of the finished product (weapons and military equipment products with everything related) ...
    3. -2
      14 February 2023 10: 19
      We have the experience of the USSR in the first decades! And rich experience! They created energy, metallurgy and mechanical engineering almost from scratch.

      All this was ordered and paid for by your state. You didn't create them. They were created by the Americans and assembled on your territory.
      Albert Kahn. I think you can find out for yourself what this name means for the industry.
      1. +1
        14 February 2023 11: 41
        Quote: stoqn477
        They were created by the Americans and assembled on your territory.

        I know that.
        The main thing that was collected and created ...
      2. Alf
        +8
        14 February 2023 15: 49
        Quote: stoqn477
        All this was ordered and paid for by your state. You didn't create them. They were created by the Americans and assembled on your territory.

        True, very true indeed! Here's a nuance - from the very beginning it was only our own enterprises, the purchase of licenses and OWN production, but not about the screwdriver assembly as it is now. Now the foreigners have left and that's all, high-tech factories have been covered, we are producing a 45-year-old Niva, all automatic transmissions, ABS have been covered by a female organ ... And this is not counting the amounts pumped out by "investors" from the country.
      3. 0
        17 February 2023 09: 32
        They were created by the Americans and assembled on your territory

        But under the tsar, who was so rich that he could buy for his automobile and tractor factories and also the DneproGES, but did not buy because feudalism and the peasant replaces the tractor.
        In general, the Soviet government bought factories in the United States, because there was a goal-setting to build an industry, and now to sell resources.
    4. +2
      15 February 2023 17: 16
      I heard that with the experience of blizzard-energy. "it's easier to hangar from scratch."
  6. +9
    14 February 2023 05: 27
    I would like to believe, but this is such a complex project that it is easier and cheaper to send a man to the moon and build a base there than to develop a domestic lithograph. what
    Units on the entire planet can afford it. And if a country appears, if not with a full, but close to it, production cycle, this is a huge technological leap.
    1. +4
      14 February 2023 08: 23
      Quote: Mint Gingerbread
      but it's such a difficult project

      it is difficult to write against the wind, not everyone can afford it, and the rest is a derivative of the first - everything can be done
      no will for it
  7. +16
    14 February 2023 05: 28
    There are many (I'm not special) interesting things there 1. "For example, the unique scientific installation "PEARL" (PEtawatt pARametric Laser) was the world's first laser complex of a petawatt power level based on the parametric amplification of femtosecond pulses.
    At present, on the basis of the experience gained during the creation of the PEARL system, the PEARL-10 laser complex with a power of more than 5 PW is being built at the Institute of Applied Physics of the Russian Academy of Sciences. The concept of an exawatt laser complex has been developed - the XCELS project, included among six Russian projects of the megascience class (large expensive international scientific and research complexes), for implementation in the country in the coming decade. "2. "lithograph based on synchrotron radiation" 3. "B In general, scientists from the USA agreed that a lithograph based on a Russian design would be 1,5-2 times more efficient than that of the ASML company. The institute's arsenal includes X-ray mirrors, which are successfully produced there, a laser-plasma source of X-rays, and the prototype of the installation itself, on which the first structures with a size of 7 nm have already been obtained." and many others.
  8. +1
    14 February 2023 05: 38
    "... quite competitive equipment is produced in the country. Here, Bitblaze Titan - a domestic laptop or YotaPhone 2 - a home-grown smartphone ...
    Both a smartphone and a laptop are just a product of a compilation of imported components... The famous Baikal-M is domestic only in design. And here, not everything is completely Russian - the processor core is from the British office ARM. The production of the product from A to Z was organized at the facilities of the Taiwanese giant TSMC ... Similarly, the processor for smartphones "Skif" is manufactured from the Zelenograd SPC "Elvis" - "Electronic Computing and Information Systems". More precisely, it was made: the Taiwanese manufacturer refused all Russian developers ... "

    Then you write that quite competitive equipment is produced in the country and right there, just below, write that it is produced 100% (from A to Z) not in our country and not from our components. Those. there is nothing domestic in this technique! Stop fidgeting already, got it, write the truth! That, for example, no YotaPhone is homegrown - there is nothing of ours in it !!!
    Stop lying to ourselves, otherwise this lie about import substitution will come out to us sideways!
    "Relatively speaking, a cruise missile does not need 5-10-nanometer chips. Such thin technologies are required for smartphones and other wearable equipment. For example, 5-nanometer chips are built into Sony Playstation game consoles. But they are not produced in Russia.. ."
    We cover our own eyes with warm, eye-pleasing shit - for game consoles and smartphones, which every street kid around the world now has, 5-nanometer chips are and are widely used. But in our country, even for breakthrough, expensive military equipment - no, and it is not expected in the near future - which means we will write that there are no problems, we don’t need it - we’ll get by with 20 times more chips! But, it’s true, we can’t produce such without abroad ...
    1. +2
      14 February 2023 07: 39
      You missed a little in this text .. Seized on the production .. The products themselves are "drawn" by us and to our needs and capabilities. we successfully negotiated the construction of a 65nm machine with the expectation of further modernization and the formation of a new chip production cluster because of which they put their own on "rations .. hungry"
    2. +6
      14 February 2023 08: 04
      Quote from Arifon
      But in our country, even for breakthrough, expensive military equipment - no, and it is not expected in the near future - which means we will write that there are no problems, we don’t need it - we’ll get by with 20 times more chips! But, it’s true, we can’t produce such without abroad ...

      If I remember correctly, on the F-22 (who forgot, let me remind you - the only production fighter of the 5th generation; the F-35 is rather an inconspicuous light bomber with some capabilities to conduct air combat at long and, maybe, medium distances) there are 486 computers, which probably half of those who visit here did not find it. They certainly overclocked right up to 160 MHz, but military equipment manufacturers are the diametrical opposite of extreme overclockers, and there they cost a maximum of 66 MHz. And nothing, they fly, and they will fly for a long time.
      1. +4
        14 February 2023 09: 14
        Quote: Nagan
        If I remember correctly, on the F-22 (who forgot, let me remind you - the only production fighter of the 5th generation; the F-35 is rather an inconspicuous light bomber with some capabilities to conduct air combat at long and, maybe, medium distances) there are 486 computers, which probably half of those who visit here did not find it.

        you have outdated data, and that is partly wrong .. f35 has 3 processors and only one of them was of type 486, in addition, in 2018 it was replaced with a new one - about 30 times faster
        "Modernization of each combat aircraft will take 14 days. Technology Refresh-3 will facilitate the installation of F-35 hardware and software upgrades."
      2. +12
        14 February 2023 09: 40
        You don’t confuse people and don’t hang a shadow on the wattle fence.
        1. The F-22 project started in 1986, and the first flight in 1991. How could the Core i9-13900K be there?
        Everything was okay there.
        The release started in 2001, and Intel was born 4 years ago - i960MX
        with Lot 5 in 2004
        PowerPC IBM RISC based on the RAD750® family
        2. For F-35 also 2 *Motorola Power PC on RISC
        And here are the explanations:
        ~10 years pass from plans to launch.
        And the electronics are not simple.
        -chronic underfunding of the defense industry in terms of electronics (no millionaire, billionth users)
        -RAD750, which on the F-22 already cost $ 200 / piece in the performance of military / space
        And this is according to the RH18 process: 150nm-250nm.
        Maintains guaranteed performance from 200 to 000 million rads, operating temperature range: -1 °C to 55 °C.
        Give BAE Systems Electronic Solutions $1 each for an Apple Silicon M000 and use them on the F-000.
    3. -1
      14 February 2023 14: 25
      Take any smartphone, and indeed any equipment, open any manufacturer and you will see that there is a hodgepodge of components produced by different countries and companies. Globalization. The technique has become so complex that no company in any country can produce all the stuffing.
      1. -5
        14 February 2023 15: 58
        open any manufacturer and you will see that there is a hodgepodge of components produced in different countries

        I opened it, there are completely Chinese smartphones, there are completely Japanese ones, so what are you talking about countries that cannot?
        1. -2
          15 February 2023 14: 31
          You probably opened it with a brick. Try to open it more carefully and see what's inside.)
          1. -1
            15 February 2023 16: 52
            Tell us what is in the Chinese smartphone Realme C30s from the Russian Federation or the USA?
            The processor can be from Unisoc (China), or maybe the cameras are from smartsenstech, maybe the Visionox screen, or the battery is also China, maybe the memory is from CXMT?
            Please provide us with non-Chinese components on this smartphone
            1. -2
              15 February 2023 18: 28
              Let's start with the first point. The processor is Unisoc (PRC). Tell us what is in this Chinese processor?) And on this I think we can already finish the review of "purely Chinese" smartphones.
              1. 0
                15 February 2023 22: 27
                Everything is clear, you have nothing to argue your excuses with.
                1. -4
                  16 February 2023 05: 18
                  Well, if you are so "difficult", then I will explain .. Look at the architecture of the Unisoc processor, Cortex-A75 and Cortex-A55 from the British ARM make up its core. Amen.
    4. 0
      17 February 2023 15: 31
      Quote from Arifon
      But in our country, even for breakthrough, expensive military equipment - no, and it is not expected in the near future - so we will write that there are no problems, we don’t need it - we’ll get by with 20 times more chips!

      Have you looked at rad-resistant space chips? And this is space, not even the military-industrial complex. Where will you put 5 nanometers in a ballistic or cruise missile, which can still fly through the air defense-PLO-EM?
  9. +12
    14 February 2023 05: 42
    Quote from lowwar
    In general, scientists from the USA agreed that a lithograph based on a Russian design would be 1,5-2 times more efficient than that of ASML.

    If this is so, then it becomes alarming for our scientists ...
    the Anglo-Saxons will not silently look at their successes, they may try to slow down the work of specialists in this area in various ways ... counterintelligence should be tense.
    1. -5
      14 February 2023 06: 34
      If this is so, then it becomes alarming for our scientists ...

      Don't worry... American scientists don't think so. As well as a couple of friends and a relative who have been working for ASML for the last 7-10 years.
      Maybe that's what British scientists think?
      Or the author of the article?
      1. +6
        14 February 2023 08: 56
        As I understand it, science is a "common" matter, and it is difficult to hide something there, and technologies (like tobacco) are "apart". I remember the call sign - 'Lyokha from Android', the "comrade" to whom you answer, he once claimed that 'chips' were not made in the USSR, for civilians there was an 8-bit KR580VM80A (1977) clone of the Intel 8080A processor (1974). There was also a 32-bit project for the "Buran" type, and earlier Intel 80386. Well, in general, they fell behind. Returning to scientists, I will only remind you of the school of Boris Artashesovich Babayan (almost all of them emigrated). Sun-Sparc architecture is his work, Intel 'Pentium 4' - developer V.M. Pentkovsky, student of Babayan. But the "Americans" have some kind of "globalist" cuisine of their own, judging by how many of their worthy architectures other than Intel were "killed".
        1. +1
          14 February 2023 21: 41
          Clarification: "Well, in general, they fell behind." = We lagged behind in microelectronics.
        2. 0
          15 February 2023 00: 05
          If about 32-bit, then this is probably the 1839 series from Angstrem?
          I know such.
      2. +7
        14 February 2023 09: 38
        Yes, somehow poer what American scientists think or do not think. Iranian (and not only) scientists are removed (sometimes with their families and children) not at all by American scientists. Well, to be precise - American, but from a different field of experts.
  10. for
    +3
    14 February 2023 05: 47
    As long as it is unprofitable for someone (not only for the West, but for ours), then this matter will stand still.
    Friendship and money are more precious than the country.
  11. +8
    14 February 2023 05: 50
    it is absolutely necessary to move in this direction... however, the quality of management in Russia is such that there is no certainty that the project will be successfully completed.. on the contrary.. there is certainty that gigantic money will simply be cut away, and the project will remain on paper.. .
  12. +7
    14 February 2023 06: 42
    Strange as it may seem, for successful implementation, smart, enthusiastic pusher managers are needed: the Kurchatovs, Lomonosovs, Korolevs, ...... Everything for successful implementation is there, the main thing is to implement it, not to steal, not to sidestep ...
    1. +1
      14 February 2023 06: 46
      Quote: Carib
      for successful implementation, smart, enthusiastic pusher managers are needed: Kurchatovs, Lomonosovs, Korolevs

      All this is available in the country. We need an organizer and guide who works in the Kremlin...
  13. +4
    14 February 2023 07: 17
    Eh, it's good to make it happen, it seems that there is still an engineering school, but I'm worried about the future of this school. Recently in the news there was a story about how they prepare engineers for reverse copying. Previously, they were preparing to invent themselves, but here sad . Moreover, they told with such pathos, in the Crimea, in my opinion, it was organized, and they showed how the combination lock was redone.
  14. +4
    14 February 2023 07: 35
    I just started reading and immediately "completely competitive equipment is being produced in the country" ...))) You must consider your readers complete idiots ... To write such nonsense about a jotaphone and a laptop type, which initially no one needed, on against the background of other, REALLY, competitive solutions))) In general, you could not read further, because, in addition to already obsolete spells and mantras about "spaceships in the open spaces of large and small theaters", "analogous" and other propaganda idiocy that has already become memes hear nothing) With what the author of the scribbler and congratulations!
  15. 0
    14 February 2023 07: 52
    Maybe I don’t really understand the subject, at the level of an everyday user, but is it:
    1. Miniaturization - does not play a role for the military? the smaller the weight and size of electronic brains - isn't that better? how can you manage in this case 180 nm when the enemy has, say, 7 nm in the chips of the guidance system (for example).
    2. Again, perhaps I don’t understand, but it seems that the miniaturization of processors is associated with an increase in their productivity (if only because more transistors are placed on the same area). Are supercomputers not important to us? Why not use them when analyzing satellite images - I set the program to automatically find certain configurations on the image being checked, the computer chose these, and the person checked it.
    3. Competencies in the industry. without mastering the technological methods, it is impossible to know all the capabilities of processors, what can be squeezed out of them in general.
    Ideas and development occur in the creative process of creation. When you buy abroad, you can choose from a ready-made catalog what they offer you.
    For example, the following fact annoys me: I use a push-button telephone (I tend to break phones - it's a pity for a smartphone in this sense). And how many times I noticed: like a push-button phone - you talk about some topic, turn on the computer (the phone is tied to your account) - and here contextual advertising on this topic has already popped up.
    Who knows - maybe at the bottom of the visible operating system there is somewhere a small, invisible to the user operating system and collects information, transfers it to the right place?
    At a minimum, your own competencies will allow you to avoid "bookmarks" on the one hand and tell you how to make these bookmarks yourself.
    3. Huge reputational value. You know, the attitude towards a country that does not know how to make chips is somewhat different than towards a country that makes 5 nm.
    1. 0
      14 February 2023 11: 26
      The difference in chip size is not critical; weight and volume are minimal, let's say a difference of 100 grams for a 40-ton rocket, all the more significant weights can be compensated for by lighter alloys or new fuel
      1. Alf
        +2
        14 February 2023 15: 56
        Quote: Nikolai Anatolievich
        more significant weights can be compensated for by lighter alloys or new fuels

        And to create a new alloy or fuel is it not good to do?
    2. -4
      14 February 2023 12: 24
      1) The gain in weight in the case of the rocket head is not significant. Yes, and the brains of the aircraft are also not very critical of what kind of process there is.
      2) Supercomputers are assembled from clusters of "ordinary" processors, and in the case of a stationary machine, again, the difference in weight is not significant.
      3) has nothing to do with iron. And we have enough software specialists, how many "domestic" operating systems were released based on Linux
      4) Russia's reputation in the world is unlikely to be improved even by a 1nm technical process)))
    3. Alf
      +4
      14 February 2023 15: 55
      Quote: Fintiflushkin
      And how many times I noticed: like a push-button phone - you talk about some topic, turn on the computer (the phone is tied to your account) - and here contextual advertising on this topic has already popped up.

    4. +1
      14 February 2023 20: 00
      the smaller the weight and size of electronic brains - isn't that better?
      No, because already a few years ago there was a low reliability of microcircuits 130nm technological process in aviation. The difference of 300 grams of weight is critical for smartwatches, but not for autopilots - reliability is more important there.
      1. +2
        15 February 2023 00: 06
        That's exactly what the technical process below 130 nm is needed for aviation.
        Memory. Flash memory without which you can not assemble the "Black Box".
      2. 0
        15 February 2023 11: 10
        New chips are also a great performance, making UAVs on Russian chips (precisely made in Russia) is a problem, in terms of dimensions, power consumption and price.
      3. +2
        15 February 2023 22: 37
        That's what I see, quadrocopters on a 3 Pentium fly with an auto-accumulator as a battery ... or not ??
  16. +3
    14 February 2023 08: 15
    the author is a bad mathematician
    hair thickness 50 microns
    divide by one hundred thousand
    get half a nanometer
    or five hundred picometers???
    1. 0
      14 February 2023 21: 32
      Quote from: nepunamemuk
      the author is a bad mathematician
      hair thickness 50 microns
      divide by one hundred thousand
      get half a nanometer
      or five hundred picometers???

      Perhaps, the thickness of the transistor layers is meant, and not its other linear dimensions?
  17. +2
    14 February 2023 08: 19
    you, me, answer the question: has the Kalashnikov concern become a private structure?
  18. +5
    14 February 2023 08: 21
    The last 30 years at the state level killed all our developments in microelectronics, because it was necessary to invest money in this at the state level - and not cut budgets for import substitution !!! am In that Zelenograd, which in the days of the USSR was an analogue of Silicon Valley - now several enterprises are still breathing heavily, but they are dying in terrible agony ... And even now everything can be adjusted, albeit crookedly and obliquely - but this needs to allocate hundreds of billions of dollars, moreover not for sawing, but for production ... So far, the desire of our Government to take this seriously is not even close to be seen !!! And if there is no desire, nothing will be (((
    1. +2
      15 February 2023 22: 40
      In fact, not hundreds of billions are needed for this, but one hundred would be enough for everything. Of course, not with Chubais in control.
  19. -2
    14 February 2023 08: 50
    Interesting stuff. What will be left of TSML when China is removed from its services? (China bought 65-70% of products in my opinion)
    Is it the same TSMC when we were banned from producing Baikal there? (our order is certainly not critical, but the invested funds are billions and pay off in decades, this line is plowed 25 hours a day)
    1. +5
      14 February 2023 12: 39
      At least not so long ago there was a semiconductor crisis, the demand for production exceeded the possibilities. TSMC has been really overloaded with orders and is now building additional capacity.

      China bought not 65-70, but only 12% of ASML products. And personally, I immediately have the question "Is this taking into account Taiwan or not?". Indeed, even ASML formally recognizes Taiwan as part of the PRC.
    2. +4
      14 February 2023 12: 57
      Both companies are virtually monopolists and are unlikely to lose anything. ASML in the field of EUV lithography (the main buyer was and remains Taiwan, the rest goes to South Korea), and DUV lithography was not forbidden to be sold to China. Taiwan, respectively, is in the contract manufacturing of chips (2/3 of the market), especially now, looking at the CBO, the whole world will be mass-loaded with drones with Taiwanese-made chips.
  20. +13
    14 February 2023 09: 11
    Unfortunately, everything is much sadder than in the article.
    Why is there even talk of a maskless lithograph? But because it became absolutely clear that we are not ready for mask DUV technologies from the word at all. There remains only a maskless path (based on X-ray DLP), which is quite possible. But it has some decent downsides. The most important is the small illuminated area and low luminosity (it is not known how effective the mirrors in the DLP matrix will be, and this is a multilayer sandwich made of metal and plastic with thicknesses comparable to the X-ray wavelength) and, consequently, the low speed of the stepper. And if so, you can forget about large circulations, and therefore no commerce and domestic use due to the already familiar fantastic cost of the final product.
    But yes, the military will get their 28nm, which is the entry threshold for "smart" weapons. True, it will not be soon, because you need to improve pure chemistry, get defect-free silicon crystals and finally learn how to cut them.
    There is also a little-known problem - the last adequate team (with a serious and exclusive backlog), which developed software diffraction correction for the edge elements of masks, successfully faded over the hill, fed up with administrative obstacles and lack of prospects.
    And this topic is extremely complex and even more useful when applied to maskless technologies, because on a DLP matrix, and even in X-ray, edge diffraction distortions will be even more evil than on masks. And the direction is in Russia, consider it dead.

    PS: The article again mentions 90nm and even 65nm as available. But no, even 90nm is not available. In addition, the experimental batch of Elbrus 4C, baked on Micron according to 90nm standards, showed an extremely low yield and more than 2-fold lag in the achieved frequencies from a similar chip with TSMC. Everything you need to know about "our" 90nm.

    ZY2: It's better to try quantum computers. Yes, they are very highly specialized, but they also solve their own class of tasks at a level unattainable for ordinary computers. Russia still has these competencies, although the state of academic science is depressing.
    1. +5
      14 February 2023 09: 25
      Quote: vadimtt
      Russia still has these competencies, although the state of academic science is depressing.

      When education and medicine became a business, they disappeared ...............
      1. +6
        14 February 2023 10: 04
        Do not worry! Now a certain Krasnikov, the director of Mikron, has slipped into the presidency of the Academy of Sciences of the Russian Federation. I had a chance to read an article with his arrival and a lecture at the Board of Directors in Zelenograd. One water and no specifics.
        1. +1
          17 February 2023 22: 42
          Ak. Landau and the plant manager are two different people with a completely different brain structure.
          And you can become a hero of labor, managing a plant, having the brains of an Academician, but you can also ruin entire academic areas, having the brains of a janitor.
          Sorry, but nothing personal...
    2. DO
      +5
      14 February 2023 13: 30
      Alas, the number of micromirrors (pixels) in today's MEMS matrices, which can be used in maskless EUV lithographs instead of classic reflective masks, is millions of times less than the number of pixels in Intel masks. Therefore, the layer exposure will have to be done sequentially, by fragments of the layer (having solved the problem of combining fragments), and these will not be multi-core processors, but microcircuits with a low degree of integration. Which, of course, are also needed.
    3. 0
      19 February 2023 02: 07
      Is it possible to get an answer that the maskless technology has died, because in Novosibirsk they say what they did about it?
  21. +7
    14 February 2023 10: 01
    reading the caption for the first photo "silicon crystal after photolithography" as a technologist of the same photolithography, blood flowed from my eyes. This, silicon wafer with microcircuits formed on it.
    And if she is held in her hands, then this is either a kind of demonstration model, or a final marriage!
  22. -3
    14 February 2023 11: 21
    As for mirrors, we have domestic telescopes on our telescopes and norms
    1. +6
      14 February 2023 14: 47
      Quote: Nikolai Anatolievich
      As for the mirrors, we have on telescopes domestic are

      USSR times...
      new, after the USSR, telescopes did not seem to be made
  23. +13
    14 February 2023 12: 14
    Domestic projects of our own photolithographs appeared 10–12 years ago, but then, for some reason, it was decided to freeze this direction.

    This is all you need to know about the prospects for domestic photolithography.
    Human. Such a Project should be led by a Human. And he must have powers from the Leader. And not from the Kremlin weather vane.
  24. +3
    14 February 2023 15: 05
    You have to do it one way or another. The state, represented by the government, must set a clear and clear and priority task for science, industry, organize and unite all efforts to solve it as soon as possible. Assign a specific person responsible for this. Give him the appropriate powers. For the country now it is like a nuclear project in 1945. Without its own electronic industry and electronic base, our country will not be allowed to survive by sworn "partners". It is time for our leaders to understand this long ago and invest in science, technology, production, and not in pipelines and the Western economy.
  25. 0
    14 February 2023 15: 06
    And restoring the computing power of the raspberry PI4 is more than enough... what do North Korea's rockets run on?
    1. +5
      14 February 2023 15: 59
      What do North Korean missiles run on?

      On Chinese components, so don't worry about them
  26. +2
    14 February 2023 16: 09
    Nice to read a compilation of the state of this trend. Thanks Author! The direction is really important, but there are no alternatives - even in cooperation with Iran and China, even on our own - we will have to go this way and build our own cycle, independent of the Western one.
  27. +5
    14 February 2023 17: 21
    Better late than never said the old Jew, laying his head on the rails and looking after the departing train.
    Finally realized that buying everything will not work.
    Every year the need for electronics will grow all over the world and until we start producing ourselves, it will be difficult for us to have any alliances. Our enemies will arrange an electronic embargo for any of our ally and he will cease to be our ally.
  28. +2
    14 February 2023 18: 34
    Quote: stoqn477
    They were created by the Americans and assembled on your territory.


    What exactly did the Americans create and assemble on the territory of the USSR - name, year, estimated cost? Two shops? Yes, it's just ridiculous!
    The Germans did dozens of times more before Hitler, but this is not customary to advertise, again because of him ...

    Quote: stoqn477
    Albert Kahn. I think you can find out for yourself what this name means for the industry.


    Not very much, actually. Design office and standard solutions for the construction of industrial buildings. Less than 2% of industrial enterprises of the first five-year plans. Three times fewer Germans ... Why is this fact recognized as significant - yes, because nothing like this existed in the Republic of Ingushetia. 90% of the population are illiterate peasants ...
    1. +1
      14 February 2023 20: 06
      The Germans did ten times more before Hitler
      And even more under Hitler. The best machine tools of the USSR were purchased from Germany under him. (I saw some still at the factory working in 2000).
      1. +1
        15 February 2023 23: 18
        Hitler - kaput! This is if very briefly.
      2. 0
        3 December 2023 13: 53
        Quote: Bolt Cutter
        The Germans did ten times more before Hitler
        And even more under Hitler. The best machine tools of the USSR were purchased from Germany under him. (I saw some still at the factory working in 2000).


        I worked with a “German” (pneumatic hammer) in the 80s of the last century. It is difficult to say about the fate of this hammer... It is believed that the NKMZ tool shop was built before 1932, one of the first and before the official launch of the plant. During the Second World War, the workshop was almost completely destroyed and restored in 1944-45. Perhaps this is repair equipment. They wanted to replace it “a hundred times” with a new Soviet one, but at the request of the workers they left it. Because of its low speed (low number of blows per minute). Yes, it is slow and relatively weak, but this is exactly what is needed for some forgings.
        Old German machines were found quite rarely, at an advanced enterprise, mainly in a group of shop mechanics. We, in the workshop's chief mechanic's area, had an antique German gear-cutting machine and a museum-quality American lathe. Because the first one could cut non-standard gears, and the second one could cut fully inch gears.
        I saw it already in the North in the 00s, the amers dragged their machine made in 1945 from behind a puddle. Exactly for the same reason - inch... They still have a significant part of their equipment in the imperial system, although they also have it in the metric system. So I cursed - I also had to carry a suitcase of inch tools. You work calmly and once again - not a single key fits... You go for a translator and drag the Amer by the ear to the machine - what is this??? - Inches Sir! Fucking worm, where can I get such a tool in the tundra? Well done for thinking quickly - they gave me a wonderful inch-long tool. Otherwise I would wait until I ordered and the instrument was delivered...
  29. +3
    14 February 2023 19: 26
    In general, for those who were interested in this topic, the author did not say anything new about the situation today. The description of our projects is of some interest, but the author himself indicated that a commercial result can be obtained after a decade, if not more, of intensive, high-cost developments in this area, which: a) does not allow these projects to be considered a solution to today's problems and b) has low probability of being implemented at all (well, it’s not customary in the Russian Federation to spend gigantic funds on very long-term serious research with a long-term result, “effective” ones will definitely stick and start sawing, and ten years will turn into infinity, prompting the state to abandon projects as unpromising)
  30. 0
    14 February 2023 20: 35
    Natalya Kasperskaya recently made a report on the state of IT technology in the country, where, among other things, she mentioned her report in 2012, in which she drew attention to the need to support specialists in the development and implementation of software products in the country. The report was listened to by Putin in the position of prime minister, who instructed to draw the attention of the relevant departments to this. Well, in fact, Kaspersky said that until the age of 14 nothing was done on this topic at all, and after 14 years they started to stir a little, but they did not start doing anything concrete. Conclusions are not drawn by themselves - we do not need such a power that chews snot ...
    1. -2
      15 February 2023 14: 36
      Quote: Vladimir Vladimir_3
      Well, in fact, Kaspersky said that until the age of 14 nothing was done on this topic at all, and after 14 years there was a little movement

      So tell me, who should move? Personally, Putin should give a magic pendulum?
      All that a normal state can do is lower taxes, there are no other incentive options. Taxes if I remember there are already lower than in many areas. Well, you can still raise import duties on microelectronics and components. But here it is already necessary to decide with Kazakhstan and Belarusians. Will there be an effect? no, it will not. Everything will remain at the same level, only all microelectronics will rise in price. because it is still more profitable to extract oil, gas or saw wood.
      1. +2
        15 February 2023 23: 21
        If you and your Putin cannot organize anything, then leave! Several million people in the country have been telling you this for decades!
        1. -1
          3 December 2023 22: 17
          Your 2 million or 2,5 of you? You can say whatever you want. 100 million voted for Putin. Or are you against democracy?
          1. -1
            6 December 2023 23: 47
            But here there is no need to lie! In March 2018, 56 million 430 thousand 712 voters voted for Putin (according to official data from the Russian Central Election Commission), out of 110,8 million citizens of the Russian Federation who have the right to vote! That is, only a little more than 50% of all voters!

            And I tell you again: if your Putin still cannot solve the main problems in the country (demographic catastrophe, low wages, huge inflation, problems with education and medicine, etc., etc.), and this is practically 24 years of Putinism have passed, then let him finally LEAVE politics and not stop people from bringing order to our country!
  31. +2
    14 February 2023 21: 53
    And according to press reports, and according to videos on the Internet, and according to the reviews of comrades working in Zelenograd, Zelenograd fails all projects over and over again. Money is spent, then bankruptcy.

    foreign companies and a card chip company worked successfully. They wanted results, not reports of theft...
  32. +5
    15 February 2023 00: 10
    The author is apparently not in the subject that in addition to processors for the military-industrial complex and all other areas, flash memory and microcontrollers are needed.
    Accordingly, there are no processes below 0.13 µm in Russia at all.
    With memory and microcontrollers, a complete zero.
    What the same Micron does in terms of memory is the level of the early 2000s.
    In fact, improved microcircuits are still of Soviet design!

    And for microcontrollers, one enterprise in Voronezh. The situation is the same.
  33. 0
    15 February 2023 01: 12
    It is unrealistic to do this. No country in the world has a complete chain of production of such equipment and all the consumables necessary for it.
    1. -4
      15 February 2023 08: 11
      Quite right. And yes, the story of the rise and development of EVERYONE! Karl, states mainly from Asia, shows that they all worked (and still work) exclusively for EXPORT! ) These are Japan, and South Korea, and Taiwan, and China, and Vietnam, and India. In general, EVERYTHING, without exception. To be honest, it’s ridiculous to hear about how we “provide for ourselves”, “fill up” purely “ourselves” and read other rubbish on this topic ... You won’t be able to do everything yourself. Even theoretically.
      1. +2
        15 February 2023 14: 16
        Quote: UserGun
        the story of the rise and development of ALL! Karl, states mainly from Asia, shows that they all worked (and still work) exclusively for EXPORT! ) These are Japan, and South Korea, and Taiwan, and China, and Vietnam, and India.



        And how could they work NOT for export, if their advanced sectors of the economy are part of transnational companies and were originally created to serve markets foreign to these countries? Where did you decide to take the domestic market of microelectronics in Taiwan? Or China in the 70s? Maybe shipbuilding in South Korea could find a market within the country? Have you ever seen a map of the world? The "export economy" of these countries is not export, it is the removal of production from the USA and Europe and other countries. Formally, the product leaves the country, but in fact it is produced by a company from the USA and Europe for its domestic market.

        Quote: UserGun
        To be honest, it's ridiculous to hear about how we "provide for ourselves", "fill up" purely "ourselves" and read other rubbish on this topic.


        So you decided to write rubbish? I respect. :)

        Quote: UserGun
        You cannot do everything yourself.

        We? We can. As for you, I'm not sure.
        And now there is no requirement to do EVERYTHING yourself. These are key technologies.
        1. -5
          15 February 2023 15: 08
          Well, you yourself agreed, but nevertheless put a minus) I understand that you have cognitive dissonance and refute the fact that all the welfare of the above countries is built
          on the export of products, instead of all the goodies and new technologies, you are not able to. Despite the spells, as usual, about the pagan imperialists and transnational companies))) Well, they successfully "stand up" and are not going to go back at all !!! ) Even, as you say, under the strict control of pagan transnational companies, which, oddly enough, have shot up the welfare of poor countries. Yes, to your own destruction, of course zhe))) Yes, yes, yes!!! Won Vietnam, the former sworn enemy will now supply electric vehicles in record quantities))) And you won’t even be able to fully provide yourself with equipment. Only a small, small part) Changing the awl for soap, and then the soap for the awl. And as always, carrying a blizzard about their exclusivity, contrary to common sense and logic. With what I congratulate you!
        2. 0
          18 February 2023 11: 05
          Quote: abc_alex
          So you decided to write rubbish?
          Writing rubbish is not always a situational decision. M.b., this is the individual handwriting of the author of the commentary, and maybe a new literary and forum trend of rubbish.
  34. 0
    15 February 2023 08: 35
    Technological superiority is, along with the dollar, the basis of the new neo-colonialism. Patents are now more valuable than tanks, so the Americans can afford to relax and have not the best weapons. Investments in the same chips are hundreds of billions of dollars, in addition to the printing press, allow you to pay from 10 thousand dollars to an idiot programmer, only a few countries can. We shouldn’t worry too much, China has had sanctions on equipment for a long time, but the money doesn’t smell and China bought in practice not only what someone said, but it buys, the Americans themselves admit. And in 10-20 years, China will also have advanced chips, and since the fight against Satanists will then only intensify, China will be forced to supply us with its chips in order to defeat the adversary together.
  35. +1
    15 February 2023 10: 42
    I can believe in a 350nm setup in a horizon of 5 years (if you really push it - 3 years) and 130nm for 7-10. This is a road to nowhere - it is easier and cheaper to buy such used "machines" there are enough of them and more and more every year. And forces need to be invested in quantum computers and photonics (something else promising), and not in technologies that have already reached the physical limit and will not develop further. Own photolithography now is a story of cutting money.
    1. +6
      15 February 2023 14: 19
      Quote: Plover
      I can believe in a 350nm setup in a horizon of 5 years (if you really push it - 3 years) and 130nm for 7-10. This is a road to nowhere - it is easier and cheaper to buy such used "machines" there are enough of them and more and more every year. And forces need to be invested in quantum computers and photonics (something else promising), and not in technologies that have already reached the physical limit and will not develop further. Own photolithography now is a story of cutting money.


      Amazing. Have you slept for the last 30 years?
      DO NOT SELL. Even used lithographic lines are not sold. One single time it turned out in some cunningly tortured way, I managed to buy a used AMD line and that's it. The technological embargo against Russia has never ceased to operate.
      1. +2
        15 February 2023 15: 41
        This is what kind of "cunningly tortured" way ???!!! Unlike you, I just followed this "brilliant" performance, which perfectly shows the state of management and its quality in the Russian Federation) This factory (FAB30) AMD in Dresden was bought in 2007, if my memory serves me right, and she (drumroll ) 5 YEARS!!! stood in safekeeping, in a warehouse in the Netherlands)))))))))))) I repeat once again BOUGHT!!! The price of the issue (for equipment only) was, according to various sources, from 300 to 500 million fucking bucks) Without any delay and other quirks, mind you) AMD didn’t need this factory in figs, because it was just selling off its equipment and since then in general, it does not physically produce anything, unlike Intel. Well, this is particular, but to the question of the factory itself ... It’s not enough to buy, you also need personnel, consumables, logistics and other, other, other))) Again, you need to sell for EXPORT !!! just to pay off and move FURTHER!!! Contrary to your logic about "their own" and only for your loved ones))) If you didn't understand, then even AMD didn't do it too well in the end))) Why did it sell out all its factories in the end. And you don’t have to look for a black cat in a dark room) collecting all the nonsense, about "cunning torment", out of your own ignorance.
  36. +3
    15 February 2023 14: 33
    Chasing 5 nm is not worth it. If we ourselves make 65 NM, then the author is 100% right, all industries, space, the atom, the defense industry, consumer electronics will be provided. And these are not a tit in the hand, but a real crane. A photolithograph is like a sign of a high-tech nation. The striped ones seem to have taken care, even under Trump, although they are not threatened with sanctions ...
  37. +3
    15 February 2023 15: 33
    Quote: Arsen1
    1) The gain in weight in the case of the rocket head is not significant. Yes, and the brains of the aircraft are also not very critical of what kind of process there is.
    2) Supercomputers are assembled from clusters of "ordinary" processors, and in the case of a stationary machine, again, the difference in weight is not significant.

    Minor??? The anti-ship missile on which Moskva's radars were sharpened was supposed to weigh 4 tons, but in fact it weighed only 600 kg. Compare the dimensions of the Phoenix rocket for the F-14 and AIM-120 AMRAAM and you will have an idea of ​​​​what the development of electronics and miniaturization is. The radar power for the MiG-29 is 5 kW, the radar power for the F-35 is 25 kW, with approximately the same dimensions. And these are other ranges, accuracy, speed, speed, sensitivity, etc. And you continue to console people with the fact that you can also break the enemy’s head with a baton, so you don’t need to develop.

    Even this war has already shown what is needed.
    1. 0
      3 December 2023 22: 23
      Moscow was produced in 1978. What is Yamato bending over now? Or Minnesota!?
  38. +4
    15 February 2023 15: 40
    In general, I am glad that such articles appear on the site. They are still trying to carefully break through the wall of frenzied jingoistic patriotism in the minds of readers. Yes, I understand that the article is too optimistic, but you need to start ripping off rose-colored glasses from people. Moreover, they do not want to part with them. This is perhaps the first full-fledged article that reveals to the narrow-minded inhabitants some of the difficulties in the production of modern processors and hints that everything is not so simple. Of course, not all the difficulties are described here, but nevertheless. Thanks to the author. Almost all of this I already knew. I hope that the cheers-patriots will finally begin to realize that not everything is so simple.
  39. +2
    15 February 2023 20: 38

    Author:Evgeny Fedorov Relatively speaking, a cruise missile does not need chips on a 5-10-nanometer architecture. Such subtle technologies are required for smartphones and other wearable technology.
    Interesting interesting! But what about the savings in weight, volume, energy consumption? And what about other missiles, devices for mini drones, equipment for fighters and commanders, scientific instruments?
  40. -1
    15 February 2023 22: 46
    well, ASML is the only one in the whole world, this is not a technology that you can quickly master and rivet hundreds of these lithographs ... the Dutch make 1-2, and all the processors in the world are made on these 1-2 lithographs
    1. -1
      16 February 2023 00: 38
      Fast? And the past 23 years under Putin is really fast? The Dutch and those slowly managed for 20 years. How much more time do you need?? 10 years old, 20 years old, 50???
      1. -2
        16 February 2023 01: 08
        the cat abandoned the kittens is it Putin's fault? if it could be cloned and delivered to all departments ...
  41. +1
    15 February 2023 23: 55
    The fact is that the technical processes mastered in Russia are more than enough for both the defense industry and the civilian sector. In the range from 65 to 180 nm, domestic manufacturers can build processors for modern machine tools, servers, household, automotive and military equipment.

    If we had 65 nm, we probably wouldn’t buy quadrocopters for CBO from the Chinese with donations from caring citizens? And also would the conveyor at AvtoVAZ not stop?
    Domestic projects of our own photolithographs appeared 10–12 years ago, but then, for some reason, it was decided to freeze this direction.
    And what are these reasons, it is interesting to know??

    In general, the project of a home-grown EUV photolithograph
    Perhaps you meant "confused", given the complexity and number of participants?

    Dutch ASML has been developing breakthrough photolithographs at extreme ultraviolet (EUV) for at least twenty years, allowing chips to be printed using 5-nanometer technologies and even lower. And such a project cost about 20 billion dollars.

    But our industry has recently habitually shifted the timing of the creation of finished products strongly to the right. This applies, in particular, to aviation, the automotive industry and other critical industries.
    So it's some faceless industry that's to blame? And how much money was allocated to her and when, can you name it? Really comparable 20 billion dollars and 20 years ago for processors, for example? Can you name the responsible persons and the penalties applied to them for disrupting the most important state technological areas?
  42. 0
    16 February 2023 05: 39
    Quote from lowwar
    I remember the call sign - 'Lyokha from Android', the "comrade" to whom you answer, he once claimed that 'chips' were not made in the USSR, for civilians there was an 8-bit KR580VM80A (1977) clone of the Intel 8080A (1974) processor .,

    I guess it was...
    I didn’t remember about KR580VM80A ... smile although somehow in the 80s he himself assembled an amateur Spectrum with his own hands ... something happened to my memory ... 30 years have passed smile my apologies. hi
    I still keep old Soviet microcircuits in the stash.
  43. +1
    16 February 2023 05: 50
    It's easier to set fire to the Dutch ASML. It is better to destroy a competitor's economy than to develop one's own - this is what the Americans are doing.
  44. +1
    16 February 2023 06: 32
    If you steal the drawings, then you could build your own. You have to develop your own. Sanctions have shown what rules the world.
  45. +3
    16 February 2023 08: 09
    Fists are clenched in anger. In Russia, there is everything to make a qualitative leap forward!! YET THERE!!!
  46. +1
    16 February 2023 11: 38
    We need to take a loan from the IMF and buy microcircuits at the market in Turkey!
  47. 0
    16 February 2023 12: 15
    The main thing is to start and do something, and there both brains and hands will work
  48. +2
    16 February 2023 13: 08
    I read your comments, interesting, informative, and I see that many of you are very worried about this topic. Why don't you write and give more information to ordinary people? Maybe we are cotton wool, but cotton wool is ready to flare up .... And many of you understand that these need to be changed, and they should have been changed 20 years ago. And someone to the wall. Yes, I understand that you are not fighters, but you need to start somewhere. no known hero. I always start with myself…. Served in the army. Worked in the North. He built something, fought with the bandits, raised the children, we teach the little ones. But the very soul hurts, I could do more, better. Why smart and conscientious are unnecessary, although they are not needed like cannon fodder. I almost went to war myself. Something needs to be changed, but with the current ones we have one road - together with them
  49. +2
    16 February 2023 15: 17
    Why, Gaidar's "we will sell oil and buy everything we need," is no longer rolling? How is it, after all, the entire economy was imprisoned for this? .. Or rather, they were whittled away. Like rats.
    1. +3
      16 February 2023 17: 26
      Until February, it worked, for Moscow, St. Petersburg was enough.
  50. 0
    16 February 2023 16: 12
    Decades are needed to create a photolithograph for stupid bosses. It really doesn't take more than a couple of years. It is only necessary to cancel the Dutch copyright on the lithograph and promise our patent to the firm that will be the first to create and produce a working component of the lithograph. Or Western, which will express a desire to supply it to us. Let there be a hundred firms with patents for each bond and reagent ... And already from these cubes to assemble a finished unit ...
  51. +1
    16 February 2023 18: 59
    Dead end path. The era of silicon is coming to an end, and we are going to play catch-up. It is necessary to find an opportunity to import Western technology or cooperate with China, and at the same time concentrate efforts on alternative technologies.
    But this is all true, fantasy of course...
  52. +3
    16 February 2023 19: 57
    Regarding chips, it would be nice to read the information, under the UNION there was the only unprofitable plant in the country, which the squatters wanted to close in the 90s, which produced the only chips in the country for nuclear weapons using domestic components and equipment, what happened to it? It turns out that both the school and the process had their own. It seems to have been defended in the 90s. There is no information about this plant)
  53. +4
    16 February 2023 20: 50
    Those who write that a maskless lithograph will save Russian chip building do not quite understand what is at stake, a maskless lithograph against a mask one is like a printer against a printing press. Printing on it is slow, expensive and not really suitable for large batches. It’s good for warriors, they have small batches, specific chips .... but for mass production, maskless lithography will turn out to be too niche and economically unprofitable.
  54. +4
    16 February 2023 21: 28
    It was necessary to develop science in 30 years using petrodollars, and not put it into pockets. So it turns out, as in the Russian proverb, what goes around comes around, and so it happened.
  55. The comment was deleted.
  56. -2
    17 February 2023 09: 32
    I read about these photolithographs. There is nothing complicated. It's a piece of cake to do. The only obstacle is Western patents and Nabiulina’s greed.
  57. +2
    17 February 2023 12: 04
    Something tells me that it will be as always. The steam will blow through the whistle. The work will be stolen or sold. Those responsible for the next failure will be rewarded. They will continue to purchase according to gray schemes. Pay us.
  58. Elf
    +1
    17 February 2023 18: 12
    Quote from: Derbes19
    It’s easier and cheaper to buy what you need than to go through the trouble of creating analogues

    Yeah. It already was. Why do we need engines? We’ll buy them in the West. Why do we need processors? We’ll order them from Taiwan.
    You are either a traitor or a fabulous idiot.
  59. -2
    17 February 2023 20: 23
    Quote: ramzay21
    Only the current government, of course, is not capable of this, this thieves can only rob their people and eat, eat and rob and along the way showing a picture of a prosperous life in our country.


    This thief, as you dare to put it, builds 300 factories a year throughout the country, restores infrastructure, builds roads. I travel around the country a lot, I know what I’m talking about, where there used to be a field there is a new chemical plant. Where there was a dilapidated village - a huge pig farm. etc.
  60. +1
    18 February 2023 10: 24
    = Strictly speaking, Russia fully complies with this qualification - the country produces quite competitive equipment. Here, Bitblaze Titan is a domestic laptop or YotaPhone 2 is a home-grown smartphone. =
    Judging by these names, I find it hard to believe that this is a domestic product.
  61. +1
    18 February 2023 19: 57
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    Your question is stretched "naive" ...

    As from "forgetfulness", which does not allow you, in the context of components, to remind the VO forum that the USSR and its CMEA partners (let's keep silent about the VD ...) have been under the embargo of the COCOM "list" for DECADES ...

    The mentioned "profitability" in the context of the "determining" criterion is good, if you work EXCLUSIVELY for SALE. In other words, on the so-called. "free" market, not clogged with systematic, "sanctions" of a political nature ...

    You, at your "multinational" firm, do not know about this? ..

    When you (the economy of your country) work IN THE FIRST TURN, FOR YOURSELF, i.e. to ENSURE YOUR PERSONAL ABILITY TO PRODUCE EVERYTHING OBJECTIVELY NECESSARY TO ENSURE YOUR INDEPENDENCE AND SOVEREIGNTY, "profitability" fades into the "second plan" ...

    In addition, even with a completely competitive price for your product, on the INTERNATIONAL market and your ability to reliably ensure its supply, you will still be thrown out of this "market" by "sanctions" of a PURELY POLITICAL orientation ...

    Which, by the way, is now observed in relation to Russia and the subjects of its economic activity ...

    So, you should not take the VO forum into the world of "beautiful, armchair, economic, fairy tales" about "correct" economies and "correct cooperation" ... Especially TODAY, when EVERYTHING IS CLEAR, VISIBLE and UNDERSTOOD, take away

    You are arguing with a person who is trying to derive a formula for the profitability of freedom. With a merchant. Understand him and forgive him. In his world you will not be understood.
  62. +4
    22 February 2023 17: 21
    In 1985, the USSR industry produced microcircuits with 3 micron technology, the USA began production using 3 micron technology in 1981, i.e. The USSR was 4 years behind in technology, I won’t judge whether it’s a lot or a little. Now, due to the absence of industry at all, it is pointless to compare, it’s like 0 and 100, which is more.
    1. 0
      April 20 2023 07: 43
      Russia successfully produces microcircuits for military and space purposes independently in Zelenograd. Spacecraft, fighter jets, helicopters, and rockets are full of processors and they are all designed and manufactured in Russia.
  63. +1
    7 March 2023 12: 53
    This is what a person who worked at ASML writes:

    In light of recent events (for posterity: google Russia, Ukraine, February 24, 2022), which led to the introduction of sanctions against Russia in the field of high technology and, in particular, microelectronics, I often hear the question: what next? What is the current state of Russian microelectronic production? Will Russia be able to create completely local chip production?

    Let me make a reservation right away that this article does not pretend to be a comprehensive independent analysis of the situation, but reflects my personal point of view, based largely not on open sources, but on experience: more than 20 years in the industry, 15 years abroad, as in R&D (IMEC) , and in mass production (Global Foundries) plus 8 years in Russia (launching a MEMS production plant from scratch), personal communication, opinions of other specialists; in general, everything for which evidence cannot be found or is very difficult. Therefore, I will not provide proof - everyone has their own point of view and the right to express it (at least for now).

    I will only talk about production technologies, since I myself am a former technologist and have never had anything to do with design, and phrases like “licensing processor cores” are dark and incomprehensible to me.

    I will also note that I will only talk about CMOS production, firstly because this topic is most interesting to consumers (consumer electronics - processors, memory, etc.), and secondly, I worked abroad in CMOS (aka CMOS ) production and have a good idea of ​​it from the inside, thirdly, I myself now work in the MEMS industry and will not write about it, since I am an interested party.

    The article consists of three parts:

    Analysis of current manufacturers

    Reflections on the topic of completely local microelectronics production

    An attempt to look into the future

    Analysis of the current situation
    First, let's look at the current microelectronics manufacturers. I will only talk about more or less modern factories capable of producing microcircuits using the 180 nm process technology and below. To make it clear, I will give examples of processors produced using a certain technology, the data is taken from Wikipedia, there in the article there is a column on the right with all the technical processes, you can click and see what was produced using this technical process (and when). So, 180 nm is the beginning of the 2000s, processors like Intel Celeron and PlayStation 2. We will not consider any old Soviet factories (such as NZPP) working on technologies larger than a micron (for example, Intel 80286 was made using 1.5 micron technology) .

    A small note about the size of the plates. Modern production runs on either 200 mm (up to 90 nm) or 300 mm (65 nm and below) silicon wafers. The most advanced equipment for sub-65 nm technologies only exists in the 300 mm version. Therefore, it will not be possible to make high technologies on 200 mm plates. And equipment for 300 mm wafers is significantly (several times) more expensive than equipment for 200 mm wafers.
  64. +1
    7 March 2023 12: 54
    So, what do we have at the moment?

    Micron
    Mikron is the most vibrant microelectronic production in Russia. They work on 200 mm wafers, have technology of 180 nm (in mass production), 90 nm (I’m not sure that in very mass production, but I could be wrong; 90 nm is Intel Celeron M/D, AMD Athlon 64), 65 nm (here I have great doubts that there is mass production there; 65 nm is AMD Turion 64 X2, Microsoft Xbox 360 "Falcon"). I once participated in attempts to develop 65 nm technology on 200 mm wafers (IMEC, Belgium), but the equipment was not up to the task, so the 65 nm process technology was transferred to 300 mm equipment.

    Mikron produces in large volumes mainly chips for bank cards, passports, metro tickets, etc. They produce in small quantities what they were sanctioned for. They have been under sanctions for quite a long time, so they have already somehow learned to cope with it. The turnover is more than 6 billion rubles, of which they earn about half themselves, the rest is provided by the state (for example, in the form of subsidies according to Resolution 109 of the Ministry of Industry and Trade - Mikron is always among the recipients of subsidies).

    Angstrem-T
    Do not confuse it with just Angstrem (without T) - Angstrem is just an old Soviet production, they made chips for Soviet calculators and the game “Well, wait a minute” - if anyone is old enough to remember it, there the wolf caught eggs from under chickens. Angstrom is still alive and producing products (of course, not for calculators).

    The history of Angstrem-T began in 2007, when Global Foundries (then it was still an AMD plant - Fab36, Dresden) began the transition to 300 mm wafers and sold all equipment and technologies for 200 mm Angstrem-T: 130 nm (AMD Athlon level MP Thoroughbred) complete documentation for the technical process with a guarantee of 90 nm production - developed, but not yet in mass production. At that time, these were fairly new technologies. But then something went wrong. The equipment was stuck in a warehouse in Rotterdam, and when I came to work for Global Foundries in 2011, it was already the talk of the town - how they sold the equipment to a Russian company, but instead of being used, it had been rotting in the warehouse for 4 years. It rotted until about 2014, after which it finally came to Russia. A plant was built in Zelenograd, almost an exact copy of the Dresden one, they even built their own power plant in order to buy not electricity, but gas and generate electricity on their own, so as not to depend on power outages. The same thing was done in Dresden, however, the Germans managed to turn off the electricity to themselves at the plant (just when I was on duty) - but that’s another story.

    So, the plant was built, the equipment was delivered, I was there and experienced déjà vu after Dresden - everything was exactly the same, installations in the same places, with the same code names.

    That is, everything looked more or less normal there, but there was some strange story with the management there. I have a whole collection of business cards of Angstrem-T CEOs of the same design, only the last names are different - they changed there constantly (along with the entire team). Once I was talking with one of the deputies, he asked me how our quality control works, I told him, he started laughing and said that I don’t understand anything about quality control. Well, our quality control is organized according to the same principles that I used in Germany to make modem chips for Qualcomm for iPhone 7s; Apple didn’t seem to complain about the quality. So I shrugged, but didn't argue. Once again I talked with VP sales ASML, he was interested in how Angstrem-T was doing and said that since their scanners had been in the warehouse for XNUMX years, it would be very difficult to launch them and offered to trade-in the old scanners , and install newer ones in Angstrem-T at an additional cost. I relayed this conversation to the management of Angstrem-T and said that in my opinion this is a good option - they will get a quick result of better quality, albeit for additional money. Angstrem-T management said that they knew nothing about this proposal. It’s strange, I thought, some left-wing dude like me knows, but those to whom it was offered and for whom it should be important do not.

    The result is that 15 years have passed since the purchase of the line, production is still not working. Whether it will ever work, I don’t know. The company is currently bankrupt.

    Crocus nanoelectronics
    Krokus's original idea is the production of MRAM - magnetoresistive memory. I won’t go into details, in short - you get non-volatile memory (like on flash drives) that works at the speed of RAM (like DRAM). This combination makes many people salivate, so many have tried to make it (I know for sure about Sony and Infineon). The problem turned out to be that in theory everything was beautiful, but in reality it didn’t work out very well, or rather, it worked out, but the performance turned out to be at the level of conventional flash memory, and flash memory is already there, why bother adding yet another technology to something that is already great? works?

    But, before this became clear, Rusnano decided to invest in a 300 mm factory using the 65 nm process technology in Russia. You can make fun of Rusnano as much as you like, but at the moment it is the only factory in Russia on 300 mm wafers with working 65 nm technology. True, there is a nuance.

    The original model assumed that MRAM cells would be manufactured at metallization levels (the so-called back end). Since the transistors themselves (front end) can be manufactured at any factory, this is an easily accessible product, it was decided not to spend money on a full-cycle factory, but to build a part of the factory that would contain only know-how for manufacturing MRAM. Let me note, by the way, that equipment for the front end is much more expensive (there is simply more of it than anything else, but for the back end, in principle, you don’t need much). So the original model looked like this:

    We build a semi-factory (back-end only) for reasonable money

    We buy plates with front end for little money on the world market

    Adding MRAM back-end

    We sell for big money on the world market

    PROFIT!

    If MRAM technology worked, it would be a very beautiful solution. But it didn’t work (and not only for Crocus), and Crocus turned into a kind of suitcase without a handle.

    On the one hand, it is not a full-fledged factory, since it does not make transistors (front end), and ordering the front end from a foreign factory and then finishing it at home is pointless; it is easier to immediately order a full cycle from a foreign factory. If they refuse you a full cycle, they will also refuse you half a cycle.

    On the other hand, this is the only production in Russia operating on 300 mm wafers using a 65 nm process technology, with the possibility of further upgrading to 45 nm and, perhaps, up to 32 nm.

    That is, it’s a pity to kill, and it’s unclear what to do next. Build to a full factory? But this is a huge investment, and there is not much physical space there for a full factory. That is, it must be transferred. And if you move it, wouldn’t it be easier to build it from scratch? (usually easier). And to go bankrupt - the hand does not rise.

    Crocus's annual turnover is about a billion rubles, they themselves earned ten percent (mostly one-time orders for sputtering magnetic materials for foreign customers - there are no Russian ones, since there are no 300 mm factories in Russia).

    New plant in Zelenograd
    Little is known about him. Wafer size 300 mm, process technology 65 nm – 45 nm (First generation Intel Core i3, i5 and i7). They planned to build it for a long time, for example, there is news (of unknown date) that it should be built by 2014. The Sitronics company was going to build it, but I can’t google anything intelligible. Several years ago, the government sent me a technical specification for the plant for examination, I read it - it was written correctly, clearly written by people who knew what they were doing. According to rumors, construction is underway, with the involvement of Chinese contractors (sort of like UMC - although this is Taiwan). I can't say anything more. What will come of this is also not clear.
  65. +1
    7 March 2023 12: 55
    Сonclusion
    On Micron it is theoretically possible to produce something on the level of Intel Celeron/AMD Athlon 64 (90 nm process technology, mid-2000s). To move forward, a 300 mm factory is needed, but it is not in fully functional condition.

    Is it possible to completely localize the production of microelectronics using a modern technical process?
    The short answer is no.

    More detailed answer: No country in the world will be able to localize the production of microelectronics using a process technology less than 90 nm. It’s still possible to set up something like micron technology (contact lithography, liquid etching, manual operations) on the knee, but it will be at the level of 8086/80286 or ZX Spectrum.

    Detailed response. The following factors are necessary for successful microelectronic production:

    Availability of a sales market

    Availability of production equipment

    Availability of competent personnel

    Availability of raw materials, supplies and consumables

    Let's look at each aspect in more detail.

    Markets
    It would seem that what markets are there - if it needs to be done, then it needs to be done, regardless of costs. The problem is that the semiconductor plant itself is just the tip of the iceberg. And regardless of the costs, you will have to cut the entire iceberg, and this is a lot, a lot of money.

    Everyone is accustomed to the fact that semiconductor chips are very cheap. I wrote in another article why they turn out to be cheap. Many people mistakenly believe that it is enough to set up a plant in Russia and we will get the same cheap chips, only produced at home. Unfortunately, it is not. A semiconductor plant eats up a huge amount of money, whether it produces anything or not. That is, in order for one chip to be cheap, this huge amount of money needs to be divided into a huge number of chips (tens of millions for a medium-sized plant). And they need to be sold somewhere. If there is nowhere to sell them (the Russian market is not so large), then the plant will incur losses, which either must be covered by the state with subsidies (then the chips will be cheap for the consumer), or by the consumers themselves (then the chips will be very expensive). That is, if you want to make truly cheap chips, you need to sell them to the whole world.

    The next layer of the iceberg is equipment. A plant needs about a dozen installations of one type (for example, lithography or etching), and there are dozens (if not hundreds) of such types. A manufacturer of equipment of one type is not interested in a market of ten pieces - again, either the equipment will be golden for the plant, or the equipment manufacturer must be subsidized by the state. Either there must be a lot of factories, then the equipment manufacturer has a sales market and its products become cheaper. But we don’t need many factories - with one we don’t know where to put the chips. That is, if you want to make relatively inexpensive equipment (relatively inexpensive - this means that, for example, installing photolithography costs about the same as Boeing), you need to sell it all over the world.

    The next layer of the iceberg is equipment components - electronics, pumps, robots, etc. It’s the same story here - for tens/hundreds of pieces of equipment, many pumps are not needed, and again we are faced with either high cost or the need to sell on the world market.

    And the same story will happen with everything else: with silicon wafers, chemicals, water treatment systems. Everything that is unique to our production will be wildly expensive, since we will not sell it to anyone else (or we trade with the whole world).

    One more thing. One plant cannot produce the entire microelectronic range. That is, processors, RAM, flash memory, microcontrollers and radio modems, etc. and so on. You can’t squeeze it into one factory. The production of RAM is generally a separate branch of microelectronics with separate factories, technical processes and players. At one time, the Germans tried to play this game; Infineon spun off the company Qimonda, which was supposed to produce RAM. Did not work out. The cost of a memory chip produced at Qimonda was equal to the cost of a Samsung memory chip on the store counter. Qimonda went bankrupt.

    That is, in order to have completely localized production, you need to have several factories. And somewhere to sell the products of these factories. Or keep these factories operating at minimum capacity. To be fair, I note that many factories will create at least some demand for equipment and raw materials.

    Let's roughly estimate how much it costs. For example, Intel is building a new plant in Germany for $17 billion. We need several factories, let’s say it will be $50-60 billion. For comparison, this is defense spending in Russia in 2020. The entire ecosystem, I think, will cost at least an order of magnitude more, that is, $500-600 billion. This is already a third of GDP Russia. But such an ecosystem can cost more than an order of magnitude more.

    As a result, creating and maintaining a completely localized production is VERY expensive.

    Production equipment
    Let's say we found quadrillions of money somewhere and can afford everything. The first thing you need is equipment. I note that at the moment there is not a single country in the world that produces all the equipment necessary for microelectronic production using 45 nm and below technologies. Even the US, which produces the lion's share of semiconductor equipment, does not produce photolithography machines. They are produced either by the Netherlands (ASML) or Japan (Nikon, Canon). Applied Materials (USA), one of the largest (if not the largest) equipment manufacturer, usually boasts that it can supply a full line of equipment from its machines alone, but always adds: except photolithography.

    It is very difficult to make equipment for modern semiconductor production, and it is impossible to do it yourself from scratch. There are two points here.

    Firstly, modern equipment manufacturers have come a long way over decades, improving and improving their equipment. For example, the Dutch manufacturer of photolithography equipment, ASML, spent about 15 years to perfect its EUV installation. The first prototype was delivered to IMEC (where I worked at the time) at the beginning of the two thousandth, and it entered the market several years ago (I don’t know yet how long it took them to make the first prototype). This is despite the fact that ASML has vast experience in the development and production of photolithography machines and their R&D budget is about a billion euros per year (I think the lion's share of this budget went and goes to EUV).

    Secondly, modern equipment is actually a Lego set, in which 90% of the blocks are standard (robots, vacuum pumps, gas flow controllers, etc., etc.) and 10% is the company’s know-how, which and most of the time and money is spent during development. As far as I know, semiconductor equipment components of the required quality are not produced in Russia.

    You can, of course, try to do everything yourself - but this is exactly one of the reasons why our parent company Mapper Lithography failed: they tried to do everything themselves: power supplies, RF generators, write their own software, etc. As a result, the machine worked for an hour, then broke down and it took a week to repair it.
  66. +1
    7 March 2023 12: 56
    Raw materials
    To operate the plant, we will need silicon wafers, liquid chemistry (especially photoresist), gases, and all sorts of small things (such as gloves, masks, tweezers, etc.). Moreover, all this is not of any quality, but of a very high degree of purification, small things compatible with clean rooms, etc. With all this, the situation in Russia is not very rosy. An interesting example with masks. When Covid started, our supplier of masks (special ones for clean rooms; regular medical ones are not suitable there) said that they had devoted all their resources to medical masks and now there would be no special ones. I had to invent reusable ones and wash them. Such masks are not produced in Russia.

    We tried to work with domestic photoresist. Either there are bubbles, or there is debris, or it doesn’t stick to the plate. Each batch is different from the previous one; each time we had to adjust the process parameters for a new batch. It became unusable two months before the expiration date (sometimes, and sometimes even after the expiration date it was normal). In general, we played roulette for about a year and switched to American roulette. We set up the process once and forgot about the problems. And it was a micron-sized photoresist. I don’t know what the situation is with Russian photoresist using technology less than 65 nm.

    Silicon wafers. There is an excellent Russian company that produces them. The range is not very large, but the most popular sizes are available. Good quality. But, as usual, there is a nuance. The wafers are cut from imported silicon ingots, on imported equipment using imported consumables (which, as we were informed, are in stock for two months; there are no new supplies yet). That is, if we want completely localized production, we also need to establish the production of ingots (for this we also need equipment to be developed and produced), the production of machines for cutting, grinding and polishing and consumables for them.

    Photo templates. In Russia there is a production of photomasks using older technologies (definitely not 45 nm and below), and, of course, using imported glass and imported equipment. The production of modern photo masks is also a whole industry; there are not many manufacturers in the world (AMTC in Dresden is one example). There you also need equipment, raw materials, etc. and so on.

    Conclusions
    You can’t just go and build a microelectronics production plant. Such a plant requires a huge ecosystem (consumers (many consumers), equipment, raw materials, personnel). Recently there was a translated article about such an ecosystem. Moreover, this ecosystem is very fragile; if even one component disappears, the entire system collapses. In my opinion, it is impossible to create such an ecosystem completely isolated from the outside world.

    So, what is next?
    Short answer: I don't know.

    What might this look like? When integrating into the global microelectronic ecosystem (having the opportunity to buy equipment, raw materials and materials and the ability to sell products), choose a niche in which there is no fierce competition (as in the production of memory and processors) and try to take your share there by playing on lower labor costs and unique system solutions from smart local engineers. For example, in the field of RF microelectronics. As far as I know, the already mentioned Angstrem-T has (had?) good developments in such areas, and they could be in demand in IoT, which is growing at a fairly rapid pace. Well, or some kind of power integrated electronics. Or integrated photonics. Having a couple of high-tech factories built into the global ecosystem, you can already do some things that you don’t want others to see.

    Behind the Iron Curtain (meaning complete localization from start to finish) you can only make something like 80286 processors for a lot of money, nothing more. I think the reason globalization is happening is that it is impossible to advance above a certain technological limit alone - not a single country can handle it, only the whole world. Whether we will be part of this world is a separate question.
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  68. 0
    April 20 2023 07: 36
    Not everyone understands that a significant part of the reasons for Russia's current lag in the field of microelectronics lies in the 1970s of the last century. By this point, in the party nomenklatura and ministries, the “marketers” began to dominate the “directors.” The OGAS program of general digitalization of the economy and management, which envisaged total internetization, automation and computerization of all government and economic processes, seemed to officials in ministries and nomenclature to be a threat to their power and the program was curtailed.
  69. 0
    April 25 2023 17: 15
    I read about X-ray nanolithography back in the 80s. There was such a project in the GDR for the same Carl Zeiss company, which is located in the city of Jena, and it was then in the GDR.
  70. 0
    April 25 2023 17: 21
    Quote: Nitten
    I think the reason globalization is happening is that it is impossible to advance above a certain technological limit alone - not a single country can handle it, only the whole world.

    In the DPRK they don’t know this and do everything that is “impossible” and “no country can handle it.” They had very close cooperation with the GDR, where they designed the X-ray lithograph 40 years ago.
  71. -1
    15 July 2023 08: 01
    In order for everything to happen quickly, we need to adjust our System to creativity! Europe, the USA and other countries have not yet grown up to their Desire to go to the Future of Humanity! And it has already arrived! With all the talk about Freedom and Solutions, People of a worthy Future, Countries are afraid to go into the FUTURE, They like the WIPE - MONEY, but there will NEVER be FREEDOM WITH MONEY AND ELECTRONIC MONEY! Therefore, with such a System, the question of Human Freedom can be closed FOREVER!
    Many are looking for the path to the Future of Humanity! The Future of Humanity, which will give Humanity a Intelligent Future!
    Today, the BEGINNING of Our Path depends on the choice of Direction, which will give us the opportunity to IMPROVE without tangible problems!
    There is a way out - this is a Creative System!
    Until now, few people imagine “What is the State System?!” Let's start with the State System. It is based on the following important parameters: 1. Education; 2.Science; 3.New Design; 4.New Technologies; 5.Culture; 6.Healthcare; 7. Preservation of Nature and Mineral Resources for the People and future generations; 8. Protection of the State, Society and People. Here's the main thing. If the State System misses the development and interaction of these points, if feedback does not work in the System, then the state will live “not as we would like.” We, the People of the Russian World, see the Future World as Creative, independent, which allows us to form Intelligent Life without monetary support! A person in our World is provided with everything that one could wish for without monetary support, of course ensuring the safety of other citizens! In the Western world the following principles apply: “Money has no smell”; “Everything is sold and everything is bought”! Our World is managed by specialists - Coordinators - these are mathematicians, physicists, chemists, biologists, specialists in Artificial Intelligence and programming, cultural experts, specialists in Design, New Technologies, Science, Education, Healthcare, etc.! A person is only required to fulfill the obligations assumed when applying for a job!, mainly Creative! Every person is obliged to work to preserve Intelligent Civilization! You need to show toughness and skill in solving complex issues! Questions 1 to 8 are basic! And we need to start with providing the rear: The production of everything that has already been developed by man and implemented must be transferred to our assistants - Robots with AI 1st circuit of Production, providing humanity to everyone! The 2nd Circuit is Experimental Production, where people produce new products, test them, work them out and transfer them to the production of the 1st Circuit to Robots with AI with New Technologies! It’s difficult, it’s never been done before, but the time has come that requires it! There is another way, but this is the collapse of the country, and we don’t want that! You have to try!
    We will face many interesting problems that must be solved!
    1. Formation of the Development of the Child and the Future Person, Healthy, Reasonable, forming the Life of the Society Beautiful and Joyful, with a Strong Family and a Decent Attitude towards Each Other and Nature! We need to create Children's Centers near where children live! Doctors and Teachers for such Children's Centers are formed with special care, as are training programs.
    2. It is desirable that children after the Children's Center have a Higher Education in their chosen specialty! All specialties must have elements of Creativity!
    3.Education at universities must be combined with Scientific Practice, with mandatory work for students during the year of study and in the summer 2 months of practical training at Experimental Production and 2 months of work at a research institute!
    4. The student's rest for 1 month in the summer and 2 weeks in the winter takes place in an active form - sports games only with personal participation, the result is human development!
    5.Work in your specialty is not separated from elements of scientific work!
    6. Continuation of childbirth is inextricably linked with the formation of a family!
    7. In addition to the State, the ROD participates in the development and assistance of families on various issues!
    8.The main Faith of humanity is Faith in Scientific Discoveries, verified by experience! Faith in the acquisition by Humanity of Intelligent Creative Power! Belief in the Necessity of Preserving Intelligent Life in the Universe! Belief in the need to form a Family and Society consisting of Clans!
  72. The comment was deleted.
  73. -1
    16 December 2023 12: 24
    I'm really tired of these encouraging news for 32 years about future achievements. But in fact, ruins.

    The CPSU could do its own thing. Lukashenko can have his own on Planar, Integral, etc. China has been able to produce 7nm at SMIC for 2 years now. The Japanese can and have invested in 2nm by 28.
    And only the great Putin can’t do shit, but he had everything, but where did he do it all and why? Idk. Why didn’t it develop and increase it? You should have asked him this at his annual benefit performances.

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