China and the US say they said goodbye to the MiG-25 too early

162
China and the US say they said goodbye to the MiG-25 too early

The Sino-American incident with an aerial object such as a probe, which for almost a week cut with impunity over the territory of the United States, made many people think.

Indeed, the precedent is simply magnificent. It is worth referring to international law regarding air boundaries, which states that outer space begins at an altitude of 100 km above sea level. It is at this mark that the so-called Karman line passes, which is the upper border of states.



This line got its name by the name of the American physicist Theodor von Karman, who was the first to determine in 1956 that at this mark the atmosphere is so rarefied that any aerodynamic aircraft, having reached it, in order not to fall, must continue to move at the first cosmic velocity equal to 7,9 km/s. That is, it is on this line that the Earth's atmosphere begins to move into space. True, the air shell of the planet does not end at an altitude of 100 km, but extends further, up to a level of 10 thousand kilometers, but these are mainly hydrogen atoms that could leave the atmosphere.

The average combat aircraft operates at altitudes of 10 to 20 meters. This applies to almost all modern combat aircraft: F-22, F-35, Rafal, J-20, Su-35, Su-57 - all have an average operating altitude of 15 meters.


The fact that American pilots were able to shoot down a balloon based on the means at their disposal is well done, of course.




A balloon at an altitude of 30-40 km is generally not a very pleasant thing for the country over whose territory it flies. Modern balloons like the Chinese probe are equipped with solar panels, which provide both the operation of observation and recording equipment, and carry out the movement of the probe and correct its flight. At low speeds, but still. And the option of “hovering and examining everything as it should be” or taking air samples there - this should generally break through the military in a cold sweat.


The way the Chinese aircraft flew over the territories of the two countries, whose air defenses could not do anything with the probe, speaks of several things.

First: there is a new type of reconnaissance apparatus, with which it is very difficult to do anything. A probe at an altitude of 30 km is a very difficult target. It is very different from the satellite for the better, since the satellite flies in orbit and is simply unable to hover, which the probe will easily do. The probe can slowly, but bypass the accumulation of clouds, which will close the surface of the earth from the satellite.

But the probe will simultaneously be a violator of the airspace of the country over whose territory it will fly.

And then the question arises: what to shoot down?


1. SAM. Theoretically - yes, in practice it is difficult to say. Typically, anti-aircraft missiles have radar or thermal homing heads, which are practically useless against a balloon that does not have a thermal wake and has a minimum of metal in its design.

Television GNSS, which are used in surface-to-air missiles, could be useful, but they require near-ideal weather conditions to track a high-contrast target and have a short range. Plus, these missiles require constant operator work. The same applies to the seeker with laser illumination, but you cannot illuminate such a target with a laser from the ground, this can only be done from an airplane.

2. Anti-aircraft guns. Alas, no. The maximum that they were capable of during their heyday was 15-16 km. Physics did not allow above.

3. Planes. Here the problem is in the already specified altitude. If an aircraft (like the Rafale) cannot overcome the bar of 15 km in height, then it simply cannot oppose anything to the balloon. Alas.

Why has the US been tinkering with this bubble in the sky for so long? What, such a serious combat aircraft as the F-22 could not overtake and attack the balloon before?


Some experts say that the Americans were really waiting for the balloon to warm up in the sun so that it was the IR-GOS of the AIM-9X "Sidewinder" missile that could capture it. The most, I emphasize, a modern rocket of this type.


Got it. Already not bad, it would be possible to give a credit, but so much time to wait ...

What other options are there?


If such a bubble entered the Russian space, it would have an unpleasant surprise in the form of a MiG-31 capable of flying up to a height of 30 km for a short time.


And this is a very serious height, although at the peak of the so-called dynamic ceiling the plane is not able to stay for a long time and perform maneuvers there, but in order to reach the ceiling and launch a rocket or shoot from a cannon, this is more than enough.

By the way, about guns. A balloon is primarily a large shell filled with gas. Hydrogen or helium. And for this shell, the hit of at least one projectile is very fatal. In any case, this will cause a loss of gas, a decrease in lift, and the apparatus will fall to the ground.

The higher in the atmosphere, the less air resistance, and the cannon projectile flies farther. In general, a cannon can also fire in space, as the composition of gunpowder contains enough substances that instantly release oxygen, which is necessary for the combustion of a propellant charge and ensuring that the projectile leaves the barrel, this is well known, although some of our "experts" sometimes say quite the opposite.

The GSh-6-23, which the MiG-31 is armed with, is capable of firing the entire cannon ammunition load of 260 rounds within two seconds. This is more than enough to turn any balloon into a sieve. From such a pile of shells fired towards a huge bubble, at least something will fly at the target.

Range ... It's not easy here. At the surface of the earth, at normal atmospheric pressure, a 23 x 152 mm projectile flies 2-2,5 km. The GSh-23 23 x 115 mm projectile has a flight range of less than 2 km, but at an altitude of over 20 km, the flight range will be clearly higher. Still, tabular 760 mm Hg and 40 mm Hg. at an altitude of 20 km - a big difference.

At high altitude, the projectile will travel farther than below. And physics is on the side of those who will destroy balloons in this way. Of course, it will cost time to prepare pilots for shooting in unusual conditions and high-altitude flights, but as they say, the game is worth the candle.

In general, initially, the GSh-6-23 for the MiG-31 was developed precisely as an anti-aerostatic weapon. At the time of the creation of the interceptor, it was the balloon probes and balloons that simply tortured them with their appearance in the airspace of the USSR. And the then full-time MiG-25 interceptor had only missiles. So we had to install a cannon, and even invent shells with a particularly sensitive fuse.


Remote-controlled missiles are also quite a real thing. But here, indeed, an operator is needed who will direct this rocket and blow it up next to the balloon.


The MiG-31 (and the MiG-25) can easily cope with such a task. The 31st has absolutely everything for this: the ability to climb heights that other aircraft have not even dreamed of, a six-barreled cannon and missiles that the operator can direct.

The MiG-25 is not much inferior to the 31st, except that it does not have a gun and a second crew member. But this aircraft is very fast and its ceiling, if less than that of the MiG-31, is not much. And this aircraft is still in service in some countries, and in the light of such events, a more interesting life may be prepared for it than being in storage.

And the MiG-31 has every chance of becoming a panacea for reconnaissance balloons. Especially if you arm it with remote-controlled missiles. In general, a remote-controlled missile is an old and almost dead topic, since infrared and active radar seekers do a good job of destroying everything flying, but the years of 2022 and 2023 have thrown information for thought.

The Iranian "Shahed" and the Chinese balloon are two new types of weapons that are somewhat unclear how to deal with. Not all radars “take” the first one because of its frankly small size (and there is a minimum of metal there), the second one is also a difficult target.

It is possible that missiles with TVGSN, or rather, a return to them, are an opportunity to secure their air borders at altitudes where such balloons as the Chinese one can operate. An operator-controlled missile will be able to approach the aircraft at a distance of effective warhead detonation and ... What's the difference than piercing a balloon? Projectile or rod?

Of course, it is not worth preparing hundreds of such missiles here, a couple of dozen are enough. Just in case, because every case happens, and suddenly such an apparatus will “be blown away” somewhere in the direction of, say, our secret objects? Should we also wait a week for the wind to change? No, you have to react.


The precedent has been set. The Chinese are great, they stirred up the air defense whirlpool so well. And it's good that, unlike many other countries, we have in the future what to answer. There is a MiG-31, and it can be suspended modified for such conditions, say, X-59TE, developed by the glorious JSC GosMKB Vympel named after. I.I. Toropov. I am sure that they will be able to easily make changes to the design of the rocket.


For what? Everything is simple. There is no need for a warhead weighing 300 kg of a high-explosive-penetrating type; the warhead should be from an anti-aircraft missile with rod or ball submunitions. And an operator detonation system, since contact or radar fuses may not work. And that's all, we have an excellent missile for hitting balloons, capable of getting such an aircraft at any height.

By the way, about height. At the heights we are talking about, that is, 20-40 km, everything is fine with cloudiness. That is, it is practically non-existent. All clouds remain in their bulk at the bottom, and what is higher (silver, mother-of-pearl) - they are really higher. So for the missile operator with TVGSN there are almost no problems in terms of guidance.

The Chinese threw information for thought with their balloon, but it turns out that we, unlike the United States and Canada, have something to answer. At least in principle, but there is. Other countries don't even have that.

It's just that after the success of the "Shaheds", for which there is now a queue, many countries have a headache in search of an answer to the question "what to shoot down." After such a splash, which was weighed down by a “lost peaceful probe” (no, we, of course, believed) US air defense, many can adopt the idea of ​​​​a “lost” balloon at an altitude of more than 20 km, completely accidentally stuffed with the appropriate equipment from observation and registration, not is not it?

In modern life, one must be prepared for anything. Including the need to shoot down such a "lost" balloon over Russian territory.
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162 comments
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  1. +88
    8 February 2023 04: 04
    Thanks to our ancestors for such a beautiful ship as the MiG-31. A wonderful plane.
    1. +54
      8 February 2023 04: 31
      Thanks to our ancestors for such a beautiful ship as the MiG-31.

      If you remember about the "ancestors", then you must definitely remember about the MiG-25, it was he who paved the way so far into the stratosphere.
      1. +54
        8 February 2023 05: 12
        I completely agree with you ... a low bow to Soviet engineers and scientists for two excellent high-altitude interceptors drinks
        1. +22
          8 February 2023 05: 58
          Quote: Kolobochek
          two excellent high-altitude interceptors

          Yes, how the interceptors appeared and immediately the probes stopped flying to us ....
          Probably a coincidence! wink
          1. +44
            8 February 2023 06: 38
            Yes, and Belenko's cattle should once again be remembered with an unkind word. Volodya hi
            1. +19
              8 February 2023 07: 26
              Creatures - traitors have always been enough in our history, they do not deserve to be remembered, only disgust and contempt.
              1. +9
                8 February 2023 11: 57
                In fact, we need to use the capabilities of balloons. If such a balloon with a radar is suspended fifty kilometers from the front line, then it is possible to detect and issue control centers for aviation, long-range artillery and MLRS, especially in the absence of AWACS aircraft.
                1. +24
                  8 February 2023 16: 54
                  The MiG-25 is not much inferior to the 31st ......... But this aircraft is very fast and its ceiling, if less than that of the MiG-31, is not much ......
                  In terms of speed and ceiling, the MiG-25 is unlikely to be inferior to the MiG-31, but most likely, on the contrary. The height record does not belong to the MiG-31. and the MiG-25 and it is equal to 37650 m. In terms of flight speed, the MiG-31 is unlikely to exceed the performance of the MiG-25, since its speed is limited only by the strength limits of the aircraft body, and not by the engines, since it has engine thrust at speed only increases and if it is equal to 2x11,2 tons at the afterburner, then at 2 strokes it goes beyond 2x20 tons.
                  In general, we in the USSR had a specially created aircraft to deal with spy balloons. This is the Myasishchev M-17 aircraft. To destroy spy balloons, he had both the means to detect them and the ability to destroy them.
                  1. Eug
                    0
                    April 9 2023 08: 49
                    The "weakest" element of the MiG-25 PDS in terms of velocity pressure was the lantern. And the plane does not have a body, but a fuselage.
                2. +1
                  9 February 2023 09: 10
                  In sense - "in the conditions of absence"? Is the A-50 decommissioned? Or is it just not being used?
            2. +1
              8 February 2023 17: 38
              Quote: novel xnumx
              Yes, and Belenko's cattle should once again be remembered with an unkind word

              This stick has two ends.
              One - the Americans learned a lot of new things (but the most valuable thing, the radar station, was known to the Americans at that time in detail, including a schematic diagram.)
              Second, the MiG-25 was modernized and the development of the MiG-31 was accelerated.
              1. +6
                8 February 2023 17: 45
                Quote: Captain Pushkin
                One - the Americans learned a lot of new things (but the most valuable is the radar, ....
                The most valuable thing that was declassified was the "friend or foe" identification system. Its replacement throughout the USSR cost a pretty penny.
          2. +3
            8 February 2023 12: 09
            The wind stopped blowing in our directionbully
          3. +2
            9 February 2023 00: 36
            Probably a coincidence!

            Coincidence. There was no need for them, because. massively good reconnaissance appeared. satellites.
        2. +21
          8 February 2023 06: 32
          Quote: Kolobochek
          I completely agree with you ... a low bow to Soviet engineers and scientists for two excellent high-altitude interceptors drinks

          If such a booze has gone, thanks to our engineers for the MiG-15. For me, this is generally a cult aircraft. By his appearance, he simply forced absolutely everything that was created in jet aviation to be thrown into the trash. A worthy rival to MiG ("Saber") will appear a little later. Not surprisingly, the MiG-15 is the most common jet fighter in the history of world aviation. hi
      2. +5
        8 February 2023 08: 38
        Quote: venaya
        Thanks to our ancestors for such a beautiful ship as the MiG-31.

        If you remember about the "ancestors", then you must definitely remember about the MiG-25, it was he who paved the way so far into the stratosphere.

        hi Yes, to climb to a height of 36000 meters, then no one could except ours.
      3. +1
        8 February 2023 08: 49
        The ancestor of one "brotherly" nationality and laid the path to Japan)
        1. +1
          8 February 2023 14: 31
          What makes you think that he is of "brotherly" nationality?
          1. +1
            8 February 2023 17: 40
            Quote from Chief_Keef
            What makes you think that he is of "brotherly" nationality?

            Last name ending in "ko"
    2. yho
      +4
      8 February 2023 13: 08
      Bolshevik bastards ... knew how to do things
      1. -9
        8 February 2023 19: 50
        What does the Bolsheviks have to do with it? Stalin slammed them all in 37-39 as a dangerous element for the country. And the Union, yes, they had a lot of interesting things to invent and do.
    3. +8
      8 February 2023 13: 10
      The fact of the matter is that for almost all the weapons of the Russian army or for developments, one must say thanks to the ancestors ... And to the disappeared country
      1. 0
        9 February 2023 12: 51
        But what about "they only produced galoshes"?
  2. +5
    8 February 2023 04: 34
    Don't solar panels reflect radio signals? What, exactly, is the complexity of the goal? I think they did not shoot down immediately because they thought how to capture the equipment without damaging it, if possible.
    1. -7
      8 February 2023 04: 48
      Solar panels ABSORB the radio signal and reflect almost nothing.
    2. +3
      8 February 2023 04: 54
      Three days thought? And they thought that they do not transmit anything, but are charged with microfilm, which must be developed?
    3. +9
      8 February 2023 07: 23
      They didn’t want to shoot down over their territory and that’s it. Few people would fall. They waited until it flies over the sea, cleared the water area and shot it down.
      About the capabilities of the F-15 / 22 with the AIM-120, you can shoot down a target up to 40 km high, THAAD / SM-3 up to 200 ~ 250 km.
      Against the background of the sky, this ball is an ideal target for a thermal seeker, for a rocket AGSN it can be difficult to catch it (although what is the problem against the sky, with such a design?), But it’s elementary for a fighter’s radar, the rocket will follow command control. In short, the question is not worth a damn.
      Pulled out of the water.
      1. +20
        8 February 2023 11: 19
        In addition: the whole article seems to be built from scratch and with far-fetched justifications. Judge for yourself:
        Modern balloons like the Chinese probe are equipped with solar panels, which provide both the operation of observation and recording equipment, and carry out the movement of the probe and correct its flight. At low speeds, but still. And the option of “hovering and examining everything as it should be” or taking air samples there - this should generally break through the military in a cold sweat.
        This is how the author of the article was going to move the probe using solar panels? This is a ball-shaped balloon with extremely shitty aerodynamics, and if it climbed above three tens of kilometers, then the payload mass (including the shell) on it is very small, any draft will drag this thing much better than screws. Solar batteries are needed, probably, for communication with the earth, for powering devices, perhaps for heating devices, but certainly not for movement. So this ball was definitely blown away by the wind, and nothing more, and all the fuss has a purely political color. And not without reason, by the way, the striped balloon reconnaissance program was curtailed at one time, replacing hundreds of cheap and "unbreakable" balloons with expensive U-2 aircraft.
        1. +9
          8 February 2023 12: 21
          In fairness, the balls can still be controlled by changing the buoyancy. - The ball moves up and down. This allows you to change the air flow and move in the selected direction.
          I also heard there is a way to control using hanging cables and ropes, I don’t know how it works, maybe the choice of flows is also made.
          1. +5
            8 February 2023 13: 00
            Quote: dilukhin
            balls can still be controlled by changing the buoyancy. - The ball moves up and down.

            This is true, but you can move down only by venting the gas from the shell - and this is a "one-time action"; another option is to compress some of the gas in the balloon, but this requires a high-pressure cylinder and a compressor, and this is a load that will limit the height of the balloon. To move up, you can drop the ballast (then you can’t return it back!) Or heat the gas in the shell (this is how they do it on hot air balloons). But you need a source of energy, and it is inconvenient to heat helium or hydrogen.
            1. +2
              8 February 2023 13: 36
              More like a compressor. And no one was looking for data on its management?
              Here they write more about the downing. About the heat trace. And what will the rocket be able to target if the ball is 30 ° C? Or about the reflection of radio waves by solar panels. But they are made on the basis of silicon. The frame is generally made of XNUMX poods of composites. Only with a cannon from an airplane and shoot down
            2. 0
              8 February 2023 18: 43
              Quote: astepanov
              This is true, but you can move down only by venting the gas from the shell - and this is a "one-time action"; another option is to compress part of the gas in the cylinder, but this requires a high pressure cylinder and a compressor, and this is a load that will limit the height of the ball

              A 250 atmosphere tank and a small piezoelectric pump and not so much weight. If the balloon is inflated with hydrogen / helium, then it is quite possible to pump it back and forth. and steer. You don't need much there, and the sun heats it up.
        2. +9
          8 February 2023 14: 12
          Yes, the whole article is permeated with "humor", starting from cannons that fired upwards for 16 km, and ending with control and, most importantly, the detonation of a supersonic missile by the operator (!) What kind of reaction do you need to have?)) And of course, the author does not talk about laser proximity fuses I know. And most importantly, the Americans shot him down not at 30 km, but after he dropped significantly, imnip, to 18 km
          1. +1
            9 February 2023 08: 21
            Yes, and humor for "At low speeds, but nonetheless."
            The speeds of high-altitude stratospheric air currents can reach tens of kilometers per hour.
          2. 0
            17 February 2023 17: 10
            I could add a quote from Wikipedia: "On August 31, 1977, test pilot A. Fedotov set an absolute world flight altitude record of 25 m on this machine (Mig-37, my note)." And the vaunted 650th generation was waiting for the balloon to descend to 5 km.
        3. +2
          8 February 2023 17: 44
          Quote: astepanov
          And not without reason, by the way, the striped balloon reconnaissance program was curtailed at one time, replacing hundreds of cheap and "unbreakable" balloons with expensive U-2 aircraft.

          The U-2 had completed flights over the USSR earlier than hot air balloons.
      2. +7
        8 February 2023 14: 19
        And what is the probability that it will fall on "you never know anyone"? And let something fly over a country that considers itself a hegemon that has the right to set its own rules, something that should, in principle, not approach this country for a whole week? That's all these are excuses for stupid lokhopedov who can get any fairy tale.
        1. +2
          8 February 2023 20: 45
          The probe was shot down as soon as it passed Canada and entered the territory of the United States. We just waited 3 days for him to move away from settlements. After an air defense missile in Poland, which found two victims in an empty field, as well as many other cases of aircraft falling on people's heads, it looks nonchalant to say that nothing will happen if it is shot down. In fact, during Trump's time, the Chinese completely crossed the United States 3 times on a similar, and maybe the same probe. Apparently we are talking about a political decision, and not the capabilities of the US Air Force or Air Defense. Talking about the fact that in the 21st century it is necessary, like the Chinese, to make balloons with devices, because no one can shoot them down, sounds like banter, and also half an article about Mig 25 and Mig 31, which, together with balloons, belong in the museum. Today there are satellites that see through clouds, smoke, rain, snow, night, fog around the clock and 24/7, which use AFAR radars instead of cameras, American AFAR satellites have a resolution of 5 cm, allows you to see shoulder straps, the French AFAR radars have a resolution of 30cm, which is enough for reconnaissance of troop movements. Switzerland is bashing $30m a year to the French for taking advantage of such a satellite.
          1. 0
            8 February 2023 20: 58
            The Chinese have the same satellites. Which fly over the territory of the USA 24/7. In addition to the fact that this is a real weather probe, there are no adequate explanations.
          2. +3
            9 February 2023 01: 24
            Enough fairy tales to tell what shoulder straps ... have seen enough films. Is there at least one satellite image with an extension of 5 cm? It would have leaked into the network long ago, not by the Americans, but by foreign intelligence services. At best, a person from a satellite will be like a blurry pixel. The main spy tool of any satellite is still a telescope, not an AFAR. One of the flagships of US spy satellites costs like an aircraft carrier, under 5 billion. And the main thing there is a telescope mirror, almost the same as that of the Hubble. AFAR copes with geodesy, mapping as much as possible ... it is not able to see the equipment, not to mention the "shoulder straps", otherwise there would be no AWACS and other AWACS for a long time. Now, if photon radars appear, they are also quantum, then it’s another matter, but this is already photonics.
            1. +2
              9 February 2023 11: 56
              Quote: Timur_kz
              One of the flagships of US spy satellites costs like an aircraft carrier, under 5 billion. And the main thing there is a telescope mirror, almost the same as that of the Hubble. ...

              So after all, the Hubble was made on the basis of such a satellite, only its design is oriented not to look at the Earth, but into space

              News from April 27, 2021
              .. Moscow. April 27th. INTERFAX.RU - The heavy launch vehicle Delta IV Heavy launched the secret NROL-82 satellite into orbit in the interests of the US National Space Intelligence Agency, the United Launch Alliance (ULA) company said. .................... Information about the satellite is classified. However, according to available data, another reconnaissance satellite KH-250 Key Hole ("Keyhole") with optical-electronic equipment was launched into an elliptical orbit with a perigee of 1020 km and an apogee of 11 km. The mission of the bus-sized, 1,9-tonne satellite is to transmit real-time, ultra-high-resolution images to the US intelligence community.

              The resolution of the KH-11 satellite equipment is approximately 15 cm. Its main mirror has a diameter of 2,4 meters - the same as on the American Hubble space telescope, which was once created by Lockheed Martin on the basis of the KH-11 reconnaissance satellite . In size, it also resembles Hubble and has a length of 19,5 meters, a diameter of about 3 meters.
              Now the American orbital constellation has six heavy satellites of the KH-11 type. The previous device was launched into orbit in January 2019. According to available data, the cost of one satellite is about $2 billion. https://www.interfax.ru/world/763416
          3. 0
            April 16 2023 17: 28
            Quote: karabas-barabas
            5 cm resolution, allows you to see shoulder straps

            a resolution of 5 cm is 5 cm by 5 cm squares and shoulder straps, let's say 10 cm by 5 cm, the total shoulder straps will look like two squares, it turns out to make out this sense to see the presence or absence, and then by two squares you can not understand the presence or absence of shoulder straps, but you can see a person you can... with luck...
      3. +1
        8 February 2023 15: 57
        Quote from cold wind
        In short, the question is not worth a damn.

        That's not to argue! hi
      4. +6
        8 February 2023 18: 39
        Quote from cold wind
        In short, the question is not worth a damn.

        sure sure. Look at how many videos on the Internet, where a trace of rockets is visible next to the ball. As I understand it, they tried to shoot him down over Canada, but they couldn’t hit him. the rocket did not hit the ball.
        1. +1
          8 February 2023 20: 57
          They didn’t understand correctly, planes flew past it, running engines leave a condensation trail, the rocket’s engine runs for a short time, then it flies by inertia. On the video of the downing, the AIM-9 engine ran for 3 seconds, then the trail disappeared.
          1. 0
            19 February 2023 18: 53
            Quote from cold wind
            They didn’t understand correctly, planes flew past it, running engines leave a condensation trail, the rocket’s engine runs for a short time, then it flies by inertia. On the video of the downing, the AIM-9 engine ran for 3 seconds, then the trail disappeared.

            At this height, any rapidly moving body leaves a contrail. The inversion process goes through water vapor, turning into ice, and this happens all the time while the body maintains the desired speed. I don't really understand what 3 seconds you are talking about)
      5. +6
        8 February 2023 21: 59
        Well, stupidity. Those. they specifically let the reconnaissance balloon fly over their entire territory and then lost most of its equipment by shooting down over the sea so that, God forbid, the debris would not fall on someone's roof? More nonsense is hard to imagine.
  3. +4
    8 February 2023 04: 53
    In modern life, one must be prepared for anything.

    In modern life and according to its realities, it is necessary not to forget about the priority goals of the state and the experience that the previous generation gained, to leave the useful, which has not exhausted its resource and not lost its purpose, not to chase after shiny wrappers...
    Not well tailored, but firmly sewn!

    There was also a saying.
  4. +7
    8 February 2023 05: 05
    Roman, you yourself have already written about the MiG-31 more than once and are aware that 140 vehicles (out of 500) are on the move, and production was discontinued back in 1994. ... there is information in the Defense Committee that the Ministry of Industry and Trade has already sent an order to the Nizhny Novgorod Sokol plant, which only manufactured the MiG-31, by the end of the year to dismantle the production line that has been idle since 1993. Because, they say, you won’t have to do anything like that anyway. (2013)
  5. +14
    8 February 2023 05: 56
    To combat NATO balloons in the USSR, a special aircraft designed by V. Myasishchev M-17 / M-55 was developed.
    By this time, a new means of delivering equipment to the airspace of our country appeared in the arsenal of the US Army and the CIA - automatic drifting balloons launched from the territory of NATO countries. Using the winds prevailing at high altitudes over the territory of the USSR, they crossed our country from west to east. Controlled by radio, capable of changing the flight altitude from almost 0 to 45-50 km on command, these balloons could carry not only equipment, but also a wide range of explosives that also work on command.

    Our air defense was forced to use air-to-air or ground-to-air missiles to destroy drifting balloons. It is clear that the cost of destruction was ten times higher than the cost of a balloon made of cheap Mylar or Dacron film. Moreover, the deployment of technical means and the preparation of balloons for flight did not take much time, and therefore their mass launch jeopardized the defense of the USSR.
    (http://www.airwar.ru/enc/spy/m17.html)

    1. +7
      8 February 2023 06: 20
      Quote: Amateur
      To combat NATO balloons in the USSR, a special aircraft designed by V. Myasishchev M-17 / M-55 was developed.

      There was a time. Because of the ball, a whole plane was built. And not alone, it seems to me.
      1. 0
        19 February 2023 18: 54
        Quote: NDR-791
        There was a time. Because of the ball, a whole plane was built.

        NATO launched these balloons into our territory by the thousands. That was the time, yes.
    2. +3
      8 February 2023 06: 32
      That is what is worth using. Fortunately, the goal is not high-speed.
    3. +3
      8 February 2023 11: 08
      Is Geophysics still flying? They all rot in the backyards of "museums", it's a shame, yes ...
  6. +17
    8 February 2023 06: 28
    And why don’t a couple of our such beautiful balloons patrol over the NWO zone?
    After all, they could provide both communications and reconnaissance and guidance, and, unlike satellites, would slowly move over the outskirts day and night ... The only question is what kind of winds, what strength and direction blow there, and so - even if they blow towards Europe, so you can also have a good look at everything there))
    1. +5
      8 February 2023 07: 02
      If you wish, this topic can be developed in general, we make a helium balloon with a gondola, electric motors, batteries, solar panels, we hook a couple of air-to-ground rockets and photographic equipment, here's a ready-made Haymars hunter
    2. +5
      8 February 2023 07: 09
      Unfortunately, the winds blow from west to east mainly, and the possibilities for maneuvering and independent movement of balloons are limited
      1. +3
        8 February 2023 09: 55
        Well, since the winds blow from west to east, the very place for launching balloons is Belarus, they will just drift over the war zone and land already on the territory of Russia. It is also necessary to build a couple of dozen balloons to fly over the territory of Canada and the United States, because there are so many interesting things for "peaceful" surveyors and meteorologists.
        1. +3
          8 February 2023 11: 08
          Listen, if they blow in this way, then balloons generally turn out to be reusable - they launched them in Belarus, or, for example, in Kaliningrad, they worked out, then they landed on the territory of vast Russia, assembled them and brought them back to the launch site))
      2. +1
        8 February 2023 11: 53
        before airships flew across the ocean. but they also belong to the balloons. an unmanned controlled balloon is a good replacement for satellites in theory. and Ukrainian air defense will not reach. True, more powerful means of observation are needed.
        1. +3
          8 February 2023 14: 07
          Airships did not fly in the stratosphere, and their propellers and rudders in a dense air environment made it possible to have decent controllability. At altitudes of 20–40 km, balloons enter stratospheric jet streams, which are unstable over the seasons. By the way, according to the map of absolute baric topography for a height with a pressure of 10 mb for the month of January, the pattern of isobars almost perfectly corresponds to the expected trajectory of the downed vehicle.
    3. +3
      8 February 2023 07: 43
      The winds over Europe blow from west to east, therefore, blowing up tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine is the height of idiocy. Everything will be carried to Russia
    4. +2
      8 February 2023 12: 33
      "Why don't a couple of our such beautiful balloons patrol over the NWO zone?"
      no one cares laughing
  7. +1
    8 February 2023 06: 49
    How just one Chinese balloon gave impetus to the discussion of many topics, from air defense, aviation, to the ability to conduct reconnaissance. Let's assume that the Chinese, as it turned out, clearly highlighted another problem in protecting the airspace of a single state. Now there is something to think about.
    1. +2
      8 February 2023 17: 53
      Quote: rotmistr60
      Let's assume that the Chinese, as it turned out, clearly highlighted another problem in protecting the airspace of a single state. Now there is something to think about.

      New - well-forgotten old. Hundreds of such American "meteorological probes" flew over the USSR at altitudes of 30-40 km.
    2. +1
      8 February 2023 21: 10
      Quote: rotmistr60
      Let's assume that the Chinese, as it turned out, clearly highlighted another problem in protecting the airspace of a single state. Now there is something to think about.

      In my opinion, this article is a banter over members of the forum. Especially over those who are seriously discussing the possibility of using balloons against NATO countries. Even Ukraine at an altitude of 40 km can shoot down this probe, S300, Mig29, and the USA will have more ways. Under Trump, such a probe crossed the United States 3 times, not only flew nearby, as this time and then apparently limited to diplomacy. Today, the relationship is different and that's why it was shot down. It is not necessary to discuss air balloons, but satellites with an AFAR radar. This is a serious intelligence officer, and thanks to them, NATO and, accordingly, the Armed Forces of Ukraine know about all the movements of troops and even the launches of strategists when they start with missiles.
  8. +4
    8 February 2023 07: 09
    For the first time in a year, I read that we have something in more than one copy that is not available in the West.
  9. +2
    8 February 2023 07: 58
    The balloon is a good thing, it could well be useful in using airspace control over the territory. At the moment, it would be possible to close the territory of Russia from sabotage using drones.
    1. 0
      8 February 2023 14: 37
      How will a probe at an altitude of 30 km search for a drone flying at an altitude of 100-500 meters?
  10. +2
    8 February 2023 07: 59
    In general, I think China understood that the probe is a violator of US airspace. If this is a scientific platform, in order to avoid conflict, it was necessary to involve US scientists in scientific work, then it would be a joint project, with data transfer control and no problems. I understand that the US created problems by not cooperating, but did China send the probe anyway? The question is when did the US report the overflight denial? what
    The Chinese were offended by the destruction of the probe, because the United States set them up, trumpeting the whole world about China's insidiousness, acting as a victim!? The question is, who actually showed deceit? bully
    1. kpd
      +1
      8 February 2023 12: 43
      The Chinese were not offended. The Chinese needed a precedent - they got it.
      1. +2
        8 February 2023 14: 17
        What is the precedent? and why do they need it?
        However, I do not catch up feel
        1. +1
          8 February 2023 17: 57
          Quote: Eroma
          What is the precedent? and why do they need it?

          With this ball, the Chinese disrupted the visit of Blinkin, who was going to bring an ultimatum to China.
          Rather than send the insolent with words and kicks, they gracefully canceled this visit that China did not need.
          1. 0
            8 February 2023 21: 23
            Quote: Captain Pushkin
            Rather than send the insolent with words and kicks, they gracefully canceled this visit that China did not need.

            So China needs the US and Europe more than vice versa. Everything that China does for the West, on Western machines, according to Western prototypes, can be done by the West itself, without China. But China, without, for example, German engineering, machine tools, etc., as well as without the United States, which also supplies chips, processors, etc. with components, will quickly get up, and then begin to roll back, since it itself is highly dependent on current technologies. About machine tools, 20 years ago they thought that China would be able to make such machines in 10 years, the Germans themselves said, who sent their machines and were there. But as you can see, 20 years have passed, and as the Chinese depended on the machines, they still do. In short, the West is curtailing its cooperation with China at the moment and it is already being heard louder and louder, it's time to return products for their market home.
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. 0
    8 February 2023 08: 13
    This is a one time case. Bold such trolling from the Chinese. But as a weapon, it's useless.
    Against martyrs, just the same balloons or drones with internal combustion engines equipped with radars that work not only to the sides, but also down. When viewed "from above" most aircraft are much more visible than from the side or from below.
    Well, after the light, rockets work, or rather piston aircraft / drones with guns.
  13. +6
    8 February 2023 08: 16
    If the Chinese had made the shell of the balloon in blue to match the color of the sky, the adversaries would not have noticed it until now and it would have hung there all the time, I think so soon the Chinese will either bring the "ball" higher and so America "thrown a pig", well done Chinamen keep it up, ours are unfortunately far from them, because the tops under the "tail of America" ​​are trying to climb without soap, despite the sanctions and the unfolded war against us ..
    1. +1
      8 February 2023 11: 09
      Quote from GneSPb
      If the Chinese had made the shell of the balloon in blue to match the color of the sky

      Or they would make it a mirror image - you'll see the figs too!
  14. +2
    8 February 2023 08: 17
    In fact, the altitude record belongs to the MiG-25.
    But Fedotov did it.
    We have few pilots of comparable training.
    But in general, the article is correct and timely.
    1. Eug
      +2
      8 February 2023 08: 34
      The serial MiG-25PDS had problems with the canopy, the work of the engineering department on the planned one turned into almost a "guessing game" - which side to put on the "ceiling". And another nuance - the TP-46 heat direction finder was located under the cockpit and was "sharpened" to detect low-flying heat-contrast targets such as running KR engines, whether it could capture a target flying higher - I doubt ...
      1. AIR
        +8
        8 February 2023 09: 31
        Could. And we practiced these exercises.
  15. 0
    8 February 2023 08: 18
    The question remains: how and where do the Chinese land these balls after the mission is completed? If they simply give a signal for self-destruction, then it means that they deliberately did not destroy it when it "lost" its course. Two balloons flew over South America and nothing else is written about them, where are they?
    I doubt that from satellites with modern filling, what they saw from this ball is not visible. And to use such a ball for bombing in a nuclear war is complete nonsense. But for terrorists like ISIS, if you pick up a chemical or bacteriological weapon, it is quite suitable. And do not make it huge and manageable.
    1. +3
      8 February 2023 09: 25
      A satellite, even with the most modern filling, does not hang in one place. In addition, the satellite transmits high-resolution frames and not video. The price of the satellite and this ball are clearly different.
      1. 0
        9 February 2023 09: 15
        ...the satellite is transmitting high-resolution frames, not video.
        Here I do not agree with you. Any images can be transmitted from the satellite and only cloudiness is a hindrance. For the price, too, not everything is so clear. The satellite can serve for more than 10 years and track objects in operation and development, and the balloon flew by and that's all - a one-time action. Well, about the "hanging" of the ball over the object, you yourself understand the relativity of such a concept, especially at altitudes above 10 km, where there is an active movement of air masses. Judge for yourself how fast the balloon crossed the whole of America in 3-4 days from Alaska to Carolina.
      2. -1
        9 February 2023 14: 40
        Quote: Rabioso
        A satellite, even with the most modern filling, does not hang in one place. In addition, the satellite transmits high-resolution frames and not video. The price of the satellite and this ball are clearly different.

        Probes also do not hang over one place ... no one has yet canceled air flows, but they always move and practically along the same route
    2. AIR
      +2
      8 February 2023 09: 30
      The trick is that not everything is visible or buildings and objects are visible. What are they doing inside? And by air samples, you can determine what the object releases. This is the intelligence section. Again, radio emission. Negotiations, and so on ... It will not be possible from a satellite ...
      1. 0
        8 February 2023 10: 27
        Quote: AVIA
        What are they doing inside?

        Purely theoretically, you can hang a lot of things. the same magnetometers, I don’t know what sensitivity they have now - but because of the Karman line they don’t see anything in principle, but under it ...
    3. 0
      9 February 2023 01: 06
      And why land it, there are solar panels on it, it transmits everything to the satellite, the repeater, and that to the ground. Hai fly yourself
      1. 0
        9 February 2023 09: 02
        Hai fly yourself
        He can’t fly forever, and in your opinion it turns out that they just leave him to the mercy of fate along with the equipment? Or should there be a system of self-destruction at the end of the mission or in case of capture, departure from a given trajectory, etc.
  16. -1
    8 February 2023 08: 57
    The Chinese are great, not only are they shelling out for all sorts of Japan, doubling the military budget. Now the Americans will have to, moreover, the nuclear forces have rusted, tens of billions are needed, the outskirts also pull other tobaccos. The Chinese ball could only be shot down when it dropped to 20 km (the Chinese took pity), when they couldn’t go higher, it’s one thing to advertise all sorts of petriots and super planes. Our moments when they were hunting for u-2 rose higher, skill and technique allowed. Westerners are used to flying on autopilots. For us, the war has always been associated with the survival of our people, and for the Americans, war is a business, and therefore the technique is like that.
    1. +2
      9 February 2023 09: 32
      Our moments when they hunted for u-2 rose higher
      If you are talking about U2 with Powes in 1961, then an experimental SU-9 sample without weapons on board was sent to intercept. The pilot was given the task of ramming the U2 and ejecting. But the SU-9 could not fly at an altitude of 18-20 km, it jumped there in afterburner, but missed. And a couple of MiG-17s took off later and could not get the U2. Unfortunately, due to uncoordinated actions of aviation and air defense, one MiG was shot down with its S-75 missile, and the other miraculously dodged, clinging to the ground. The article correctly writes about the later models of the MiG-25 and MiG-31, but with them, U2s no longer flew to us, if only for a couple of minutes for a provocation.
  17. +4
    8 February 2023 09: 17
    six months ago, there were several articles on the further fate of the MIG, both the author and the majority of those participating in the discussion were unequivocal: the MIG had no place left in the sky ...
    Remember, as Chernomyrdin said: "never happened and here again ..."
    therefore, before discussing the material posted here, ask yourself a question in the style of V.I. Lenin: "Who benefits from this"?
    1. yho
      +2
      8 February 2023 13: 20
      A familiar song, "and if needed, we'll buy it." Not all Gaidarites have yet been buried.
      1. +2
        8 February 2023 17: 23
        Quote: Dedok
        ask yourself a V.I. style question Lenin: "Who benefits from this"?
        Before Lenin, the words "who benefits from this?" (in Latin Cui bono? (cui bono) and Cui prodest? (cui prodest) were said as early as 127 BC by the famous Roman lawyer Cassian Longinus Ravilla (Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, consul).
  18. AIR
    +3
    8 February 2023 09: 25
    So on the MiG-25 there were special R-40 missiles for balls - balloons! These missiles could also be suspended on the MiG-31.
  19. +3
    8 February 2023 09: 27
    The author, as always, waved past the money. For a balloon with a cellular structure, hitting 1 projectile is not fatal - it's like piercing foam rubber with a needle and claiming that it will sink. And only the USSR had shells with ultra-sensitive fuses, it is not known whether we have them in service, and it is almost guaranteed that they are not in the USA.
  20. Aag
    +2
    8 February 2023 09: 30
    Great car!
    Demanded both now and in the future. It's just depressing:
    "... Today in Russia there is no production of the MiG-31. It has been absent since 1994 and its renewal is impossible, since all technical and technological lines have long been lost. That is why the loss of this fighter is much more painful than the loss of the Su-30 or Su -34 or even Su-35," the expert is sure. 3 Dec. 2022...".
  21. +2
    8 February 2023 09: 59
    By the way, about guns. A balloon is primarily a large shell filled with gas. Hydrogen or helium. And for this shell, the hit of at least one projectile is very fatal. In any case, this will cause a loss of gas, a decrease in lift, and the apparatus will fall to the ground.
    By the way, according to a specialist who also dealt with the problem of enemy balloons, with one projectile, a multi-balloon balloon cannot be shot down, especially one that has automatic height adjustment in case of gas loss, in the sense that BALLAST is dropped there and the ball flies further no lower than before! !!
    In general, the goal is difficult, but you can shoot down ...
  22. +1
    8 February 2023 10: 16
    To combat balloons, they always looked towards low-speed aircraft with guns.
    1. +1
      8 February 2023 11: 36
      Slow-moving ... and which of them can "jump" at least 10 km up ???
      Well, these are not barrage balloons, balls with an observer that do not raise above three rubles.
      30 km, this is serious, only a special aircraft can rise. Powerful and very fast.
  23. +11
    8 February 2023 10: 38
    From time to time I read the opuses of Mr. Skomorokhov, which is surprising that he is such a major specialist, and a military historian in aviation, and in armored vehicles and small arms. I wonder what school he graduated from, but this sometimes does not prevent him from writing all sorts of nonsense. Yes, ADA is indeed a difficult air target, in air defense aviation, crews for the destruction of ADA were assigned only in regiments of armed MiG-25s with a readiness of one hour, with an appropriate suspension 1,4 pylons of two R-60 missiles, 2,3 pylons of the R-40 missile 31 TD, by the way, from our regiment they somehow drove a link to Haapsalu to work on a balloon, but it never came to an interception flight. In general, preparations are underway for this, and the flight is made at dawn, after calculating the azimuth of the sun, and then the flight trajectory for interception is built. The Mig-40 can only work on the Mig-60 balloon with the R-31td rocket, the R-26 rocket is not safe at such a height, and it’s of little use, the heat direction finder on the Mig-25 differs little in characteristics from the TP-25 that is on the Mig-25, so this is that still gimor at such heights, according to security measures from a range of 31 km., must be withdrawn from the attack. On the MiG-25, the maximum opera height is greater than on the MiG-31, although not significantly, and not vice versa, as he writes here, while the MiG-6 behaves more steadily in the stratosphere on a hill, the MiG-23 has a longer fuselage and keels are shaded. What about the gun, who told you that it was installed for firing at balloons? This is a shortened version of GSh-31-2500, I once talked with the former head of the Savasleyka center, General Yury Timofeevich Novikov, he told how they fired a cannon on the MiG-900 at a ground target, from XNUMX meters diving, aiming, shooting , at XNUMX meters withdrawal from the attack, the result - not a single hit, what kind of shooting at a balloon !!!!
    1. +1
      8 February 2023 11: 47
      Altitude record for combat aircraft, for MiG 25, 1977. Until now, no one has surpassed him, on combat aircraft, at least ... some record pepelats took their records, but they were not combat, at all.
      MiG 31, we can say the further development of interceptor aircraft. It is not a record, but more practical, compared to 25.
      It can, high, fast, and far... made for specific tasks.
    2. +1
      8 February 2023 15: 54
      Good afternoon, sorry, my father flew 300 hours in the stratosphere at MiG 25 and there was no better plane, as he wrote in his book ... and the launches of X 58 missiles in Akhtubinsk ... in 1986 this is a clear measure. .. who knows ... and on the glide path :)
    3. 0
      10 February 2023 18: 09
      mongol
      From time to time I read the opuses of Mr. Skomorokhov, which is surprising that he is such a major specialist

      Mr. Skomorokhov graduated from a school for the development of general erudition and reading articles on the Internet.
  24. +2
    8 February 2023 10: 42
    Once upon time in America.
    We are learning the elements of reconnaissance from our Chinese comrades, the right balloons more than compensate for the necessary data on the battlefield on the outskirts.
    The lack of satellites in this situation is more than compensated.
    [Center]
    1. 0
      9 February 2023 14: 35
      And you canceled the geography of air flows with one click of the mouse wassat crying
  25. +2
    8 February 2023 10: 45
    Everyone forgot about the M-55, which was made to fight balloons. Practical ceiling 21300m. It is still in operation.
    1. +1
      8 February 2023 11: 57
      Relatively low-flying balloons can get it ... but what if it can rise above 30 km, it is comfortable for him there, but not for the plane.
      In general, China has shown that the old methods, using new technologies, rule.
    2. -1
      8 February 2023 21: 35
      M17 was made against balloons, but the program was closed, as the problem of reconnaissance probes lost its relevance. On its basis, a high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft M55 "Geophysics" was later made, converting the aircraft into a twin-engine one.
  26. +8
    8 February 2023 10: 46
    By the way, about guns. A balloon is primarily a large shell filled with gas. Hydrogen or helium. And for this shell, the hit of at least one projectile is very fatal. In any case, this will cause a loss of gas, a decrease in lift, and the apparatus will fall to the ground.

    Hand face... smile
    In fact, the main problem in the fight against drifting balloons is just a small vulnerability of the shell. The times of "simple gas bubbles" are long gone - already during the Cold War, Soviet air defense was faced with multi-section shells of small thickness, on which shell fuses either did not work or knocked out only one of the sections. I had to make especially sensitive fuses, pervert with the striking elements of shells, and even build a special high-altitude balloon hunter (which, as always, flew too late).
    Inundated with a fighter and confirmed (or better found on the ground) ADA is almost guaranteed "if a hole". ADPs are very, very difficult to destroy, the radar of an aircraft does not see them, they fly almost in space at altitudes up to 25 km, they are painted in the color of the sky, or generally transparent like jellyfish. The reflective surface is smaller than any of these stealths of yours.

    Under ADA, a special aircraft charge is used, these are missiles with a thermal homing head (R-73) and special anti-aerostatic incendiary-tracer projectiles, with a special fuse that is triggered by touching the thin shell of the ball. From raindrops, this fuse also works, so it’s better not to shoot them in the rain.

    Rockets, on the other hand, capture the heated solar side of the ball with their smart thermal head. To do this, we must use the OLS - TP, or turn on "Finol / Druchn" (do not pay attention) and capture the ball immediately with rocket heads without intermediaries.
    © Fighterbomber, [04.08.2022/9/01 XNUMX:XNUMX]
  27. +2
    8 February 2023 10: 51
    The author forgot that balloons can fly remarkably above 30-40 km, and then how to drive?
    And for this shell, the hit of at least one projectile is very fatal.
    what are you!? ... then during the Second World War they sometimes got sick of shooting down German "balls" that were divided into many compartments request
  28. +3
    8 February 2023 10: 51
    Why don't our probes hang over Ukraine? At least in order to deplete their air defense reserves!
  29. +5
    8 February 2023 11: 02
    If the RF Armed Forces had such balloons, the special operation could have turned out quite differently. First of all, this is the isolation of the combat area and the knocking out of the most dangerous military equipment - air defense, artillery, tanks. For this, there is just not enough reconnaissance means.
    1. -1
      9 February 2023 14: 31
      Quote: Alexander_Dneprovsky
      If the RF Armed Forces had such balloons, the special operation could have turned out quite differently. First of all, this is the isolation of the combat area and the knocking out of the most dangerous military equipment - air defense, artillery, tanks. For this, there is just not enough reconnaissance means.

      Yeah ... oh, they made me laugh. One blurted out nonsense and the others enthusiastically picked it up. The wind will blow a little stronger and look for your probes, whistle ...
  30. +3
    8 February 2023 11: 56
    Isn't it easier to pierce with a laser? - I think it's cheaper than rockets and planes.
  31. +5
    8 February 2023 12: 06
    belay
    the Chinese and the United States didn’t have a MIG-25, how could they "say goodbye" to them (sooner or later)?

    Chinese spy balloons have flown over the continental United States at least three times, according to a senior Trump administration official, but key details about the incursions were not widely known until after Joe Biden took office.


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-06/us-didn-t-know-about-chinese-balloons-during-trump-until-later#xj4y7vzkg

    / do not make an elephant out of a fly

    Quote: author
    There is a MiG-31, and it can be hung up modified for such conditions, say, X-59TE, developed by the glorious JSC GosMKB Vympel named after. I.I. Toropov. I am sure that they will be able to easily make changes to the design of the rocket.

    offfiget
    -X-59TE what kind of animal "TE"
    -X-59 is designed to destroy important enemy ground and surface targets
    - above 11 km they do not "fly" and do not start
    - and not "easily"
  32. -1
    8 February 2023 12: 11
    Error. Lasers can even illuminate satellites at an altitude of 100+ km.
  33. +2
    8 February 2023 13: 25
    I understand there's a new kind of threat looming...
  34. -2
    8 February 2023 13: 26
    For shooting down balloons, the Mig-25 is redundant. We need a UAV with a turbojet engine. He flew up, shied away with an analogue of the stinger, returned.
    1. -2
      8 February 2023 20: 47
      What wonderful nonsense. UAV against a balloon is enough to have wings with knives and that's it. Flying stabbed the ball or lines and that's it. Two or three calls and together on the ground.
    2. +1
      8 February 2023 21: 39
      The record height of an aircraft with a turbojet engine is 37650 m. The record belongs to the MiG-25.
  35. +1
    8 February 2023 13: 42
    The precedent has been set. The Chinese are great, they stirred up the air defense whirlpool so well. And it's good that, unlike many other countries, we have in the future what to answer. There is a MiG-31, and it can be suspended modified for such conditions, say, X-59TE, developed by the glorious JSC GosMKB Vympel named after. I.I. Toropov. I am sure that they will be able to easily make changes to the design of the rocket.


    the Americans rush to create a new plane ..... at any time they scratch their turnips well ...
  36. 0
    8 February 2023 13: 45
    Quote: novel xnumx
    Yes, and Belenko's cattle should once again be remembered with an unkind word. Volodya hi

    And after all, the Ukrainian is ...
  37. 0
    8 February 2023 13: 49
    And how are radar and the amount of metal in the aircraft design related ??? It's not a metal detector. Bats do not detect metal).
  38. +5
    8 February 2023 14: 34
    The article is crazy. Unless her goal is to sing the praises of the MiG-31. What cannon on the ball at an altitude of 35-40 km if the plane can only jump out to 30k? Rockets with TVGSN and on the handbrake are ....))) And how did I yell with the X-59))) Refine? And what, forgive me, needs to be finalized there?))) The entire rocket as a whole?))))
    In general, Roma, here’s a “nail” for you))) “in the coffin lid” of your fairy tale)): One real balloon with a payload is taken (it can cost as much as one X-59 rocket, or maybe cheaper depending on tasks. ) And not even a hundred is taken (although a hundred can easily be), a couple of dozen of the same shells under which banal bricks are hung))) and their cost will be like a wing from the Cossack all together))) Well, go ahead))) "sparrows" are launched , prepare golden rockets))) You can repeat until the opposite side is completely "satisfied"))) A good way to troll or spam))
    And if you shoot down only "real"? so you still need to fly around them or otherwise visualize them and understand what is suspended there, how much time and money will it take? And 100% results are not guaranteed.
    Although it’s strange that the Chinese remembered the balloons. In theory, Americans can now remember the past on a completely different level, given the development of technology. Having now such a tool as Starlink, you can get such a candy for yourself and a huge "popabol" for the enemy)
    So, how to shoot down these balls if they start flying above us at altitudes of about 40 km? And they will start and precisely at such heights, no one will substitute them as targets in a shooting range (from the article it is clear that there is absolutely nothing). And fly in dozens, they will also come to this, as it occurred to me, although I have never been in this topic. Moreover, it will be necessary to shoot down both quickly and cheaply, and rockets are absolutely not cheap, and the speed of their manufacture is never equal to the speed of manufacture of rubber balls)
    1. +1
      9 February 2023 10: 20
      Quote: Introvert
      Although it’s strange that the Chinese remembered the balloons.

      Nothing strange - they have suitable air currents. Neighboring Japan launched more than nine thousand of its shock ADA during WWII Fu-Go across the US.
  39. The comment was deleted.
  40. +2
    8 February 2023 15: 10
    Why TVGSN if the operator manages? There is no homing then. Another name should be in the abbreviation.
  41. +1
    8 February 2023 15: 12
    He stole something, but they couldn’t do the same. They changed their alien and that's it. M-17 / M-55 may have remained somewhere, but they are unlikely to be able to build for hunting balls.
  42. 0
    8 February 2023 15: 26
    An interesting and detailed review.
    I would like to understand two things:
    1. How do the Chinese argue, from the point of view of international laws, their dissatisfaction with the downed balloon? Seems like nothing...
    2. Why, in order to shoot down a balloon, the plane must (as I understand it from the text of the article) be at approximately the same height? If an aircraft with a ceiling of 15 meters launches a rocket from this height, which will only be 5 meters from the target, doesn’t that solve the issue? It is possible that from 5 meters the rocket will capture the balloon.
    If even from 5 thousand meters a rocket cannot capture a balloon, is it possible to simply aim with the plane itself, and the rocket will go in a straight line and self-detonate either when it hits or after a certain time?
    Well, in principle, is it possible to effectively fire anti-aircraft missiles, aiming from a launcher / aircraft, pointing guide installations or an aircraft at a target (as if from a gun), after removing the homing systems from the rocket so as not to be distracted.
    Well, or using a three-dimensional coordinate system, launching to the desired point in space where the balloon is located.
  43. +2
    8 February 2023 18: 16
    They wrote nonsense about the X59, its turbojet engine will not work at such a height. They only need rockets with solid propellant rocket engines or rocket engines.
  44. +3
    8 February 2023 18: 25
    The article is about nothing. Myasishchev in the USSR made the M17 to solve precisely these problems. But since the Americans stopped launching balloons, the plane did not go into production. Although several pieces of M55 (as a further development of the program) flew in the stratosphere for another 20 years
  45. +2
    8 February 2023 19: 43
    > And for this shell, hitting at least one projectile is very fatal
    such a balloon will not fly anywhere; it has a cellular structure, the loss of tightness of one cell does not mean anything
  46. +1
    8 February 2023 21: 26
    Interesting article. But there are many questions.
    Could be useful television GN, which are used in surface-to-air missiles

    1. And in what specific ground-to-air missiles are they used? Does the author confuse anything?
    a surprise in the form of the MiG-31, capable of flying up to a height of 30 km for a short time ... even if at the peak of the so-called dynamic ceiling the plane is not able to stay for a long time and perform maneuvers there, but in order to reach the ceiling and launch a rocket or shoot from a cannon that's more than enough

    2. 30 km is the dynamic ceiling of the MiG-31, and it is almost impossible to use a gun at this height - maneuvers are needed for aiming, and the author himself emphasizes that they are impossible. The practical ceiling of the MiG-31 is 20 km. By the way, the F-22 and F-15 have the same one, those who wish can look at Wikipedia.
    At high altitude, the projectile will travel farther than below.

    3. If so, then this means that the trajectory of the projectiles will be different, this will need to be taken into account in the sight.
    Remote-controlled missiles are also quite a real thing. But it really needs an operator

    4. To begin with, we need an air-to-air missile of this type, capable of being used at an altitude of 30 km.
    Given that in the daytime at such an altitude, that part of the ball that is turned towards the Sun will noticeably heat up, so it is logical to use the available IR-guided missiles by attacking from the right side.
    The MiG-25 is not much inferior to the 31st, except that it does not have a gun and a second crew member. But this aircraft is very fast and its ceiling, if less than that of the MiG-31, is not much.

    5. In fact, it is the MiG-25 that holds the absolute altitude record among jet aircraft - 37650 m, set in 1977. Only rockets fly higher. But this does not mean that weapons can be used on this dynamic peak.
    And the MiG-31 has every chance of becoming a panacea for reconnaissance balloons.

    6. Weather balloons, on the basis of which reconnaissance ones are made, can fly at altitudes up to 50 km. No fighter is really enough to use guns at such a height. Making special rocket planes specifically against probes is very expensive and pointless.
    7. Perhaps it makes sense to use specially designed rockets - but this is also debatable, such rockets will be very expensive, the game is not worth the candle. Unless specialized missile UAVs with weapons specially designed against probes, suitable for use at high altitudes. In this case, it will not be easy to use guns due to the large difference in speeds.
    And at altitudes up to 20 km inclusive and even higher (and the probe may well descend to such a height due to processes in the atmosphere) - already existing aircraft with existing IR missiles are quite able to cope - somehow Mig-31, Mig-25, F- 22, F-15. The old Phantom, by the way, is not very inferior to them - it has a practical height of about 19 km, and at one time set a height record of 30040 m.
    1. 0
      9 February 2023 10: 25
      Quote from solar
      1. And in what specific ground-to-air missiles are they used? Does the author confuse anything?

      Judging by the further description in the article, this meant a photo-contrast seeker - like the one on the Strela-10 missile defense system.
      But to work on the goal of the color of the sky against the sky? what
  47. +2
    8 February 2023 21: 29
    The author messed up again. The ceiling is higher than the bvl at the MiG-25. Modifications of the BM, which even without acceleration rose above 23 km, and during acceleration it could go even higher .. And to shoot down ball-type targets, air missiles have laser fuses. Which are triggered when packets pass near the target.
  48. 0
    8 February 2023 22: 18
    Somehow it is hard to believe that such a ball was not tracked in advance. And besides, they could not bring down for a long time)
    I think if they launched him into the territory, then they wanted it that way. And they tracked it long before it appeared in the USA and Canada ...
  49. -1
    9 February 2023 00: 13
    The Chinese do not disdain balloons, and our Defense Ministry still cannot understand what is the use of their S-500 with a range of 600 km, because ground-based radars at such a range only see what flies very high, and now nothing flies high except for Chinese balloon))
    We put a radar on a balloon and go ahead to win real and not imaginary air superiority over Ukraine.
  50. +1
    9 February 2023 00: 25
    The US says that they said goodbye to the MiG-25 too early

    Who exactly is speaking? Did the USA have MiG-25s?
  51. 0
    9 February 2023 06: 24
    Quote: shwart
    And how are radar and the amount of metal in the aircraft design related ??? It's not a metal detector. Bats do not detect metal).

    Well, of course, every bat has a radar with AFAR. Do not confuse warm with red - ultrasound at short distances on chitinous or other materials that reflect sound well and radio emission on low-contrast or even radio-transparent materials. 99% of the ball and body kit can be made of polymers, and the rest correctly placed and segmented so that the radar will not even mistake it for a migrating dragon.
  52. The comment was deleted.
  53. +1
    9 February 2023 08: 48
    And Radiant said that the USSR could only make galoshes... And look how! During the 20 years of the reign of the Renewed, nothing sensible was born, only rehashes of Soviet foundations.
    1. +2
      9 February 2023 10: 37
      Quote: AVESSALOM
      And Radiant said that the USSR could only make galoshes...

      It was not the darkest one who said this, but the turbopatriots, with their figurative quotation, so altered his words about Soviet consumer goods.
      And then it started according to Navalny’s precepts: Don't reflect, spread it, let them fight back.

      In reality, it was said that the USSR had a strong defense industry and space, for which we are grateful and of which we are still proud. But consumer goods were produced too little and too poorly.
      Yes, my dear, yes. No need to discuss. The fact is that what we produced (and we don’t have to wave our hands), nobody needed, because nobody bought our galoshes, except for the Africans, who had to walk on the hot sand. That is the whole point.
      We had a defense industry - cool, strong, and we are still proud of it. We are grateful to our grandfathers and our fathers for creating such a defense after the Great Patriotic War.
      From the audience: ... And the first satellite.
      Vladimir Putin: Both the first satellite and the first man in space are our common pride, these are the achievements of the Soviet government, of which we are all proud. These are nationwide achievements.
      But consumer goods… Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? There were none. Let's not lie to each other and the people. The people know what was and what was not.

      And yes, those who visited the USSR remember the Soviet symbols of prosperity. The only thing that was domestic was a car, and the rest was an imported wall, imported crystal in the wall, imported plumbing fixtures, imported consumer electronics, imported shoes, imported clothing.
      Refrigerator Rosenlev. Finnish, good © didn’t just appear. wink
      1. +2
        9 February 2023 11: 10
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The only domestic thing they had was a car,

        Are you kidding me?

        The Soviet car was a symbol of prosperity, because Soviet people could not even dream of an anti-Soviet car.
        I recently came across the series “TASS is authorized to declare.” What does a KGB general drive in the early 80s? For an S-class in the 126th body? On seven in the 23rd body? On the barge maybe a third generation Audi 100? How can you not love a barge? Everyone loves her.

        He drives a six-wheeler Zhiguli.

        Here some people argued that there was a demand for such cars. Well, yes, VAZ classics versus Mercedes 190 W201 from 82. Almost the same car, but ours is cheaper and more reliable.
        1. 0
          9 February 2023 14: 04
          Quote: Negro
          Are you kidding me?

          Немного. © smile
          Quote: Negro
          The Soviet car was a symbol of prosperity, because Soviet people could not even dream of an anti-Soviet car.

          So... I meant the average Soviet symbols of prosperity.
          And an imported car is already much above average. A Soviet person could dream of a foreign car. But he understood perfectly well that in this case, for 99% of the country’s population, the existing desires do not completely coincide with the available capabilities.
          1. 0
            9 February 2023 16: 58
            Quote: Alexey RA
            But he understood perfectly well that in this case, for 99% of the country’s population, the existing desires do not completely coincide with the available capabilities.

            What 99%? Single copies of normal cars. Buying a Mercedes and mounting a French movie star were feats of the same caliber. One Marvel superhero for the entire USSR. They write that there were three W116 S-classes in the USSR, one for the Soviet superman, two for dear Leonid Ilyich. For comparison, almost half a million of these machines were sold outside the USSR.

            And 1% dreamed not of a Mercedes, but of a personal car, from the Volga and above. For example, not all KGB major generals were entitled to a personal car, even a Volga. But neither the Volga nor the ZIL-4104 of the Politburo members, with the same S-class of 79, were even close to the technical level.

            To be honest, it seems that the Soviet government felt some kind of special hatred for good passenger cars.
  54. The comment was deleted.
  55. 0
    9 February 2023 14: 19
    Plus, the rest of our MiGs can’t be read without laughing. Thank you for fun. Especially about the self-propulsion of the probe and its hovering in one place, this is absolutely brilliant. wassat
  56. 0
    9 February 2023 14: 19
    Quote from solar
    30 km is the dynamic ceiling of the Mig-31, and it is almost impossible to use a cannon at this altitude - maneuvers are needed to aim, and the author himself emphasizes that they are impossible.


    But the gun itself doesn’t turn? Well, yes, in the past the plane itself was aimed at the target, but nowadays the barrels are hardly rigidly fixed... for helicopters - definitely not, why should it be different with airplanes?
    The fighter does not need to rise to a height of 30 km. Makes a "slide" and shoots from bottom to top. The flight range of the projectiles is at least 5 km.
    Maneuvers at high altitudes are possible for airplanes with high-powered aircraft; rockets with gas-dynamic rudders are also effective (their effectiveness, unlike planes, does not decrease in rarefied air).
    1. 0
      9 February 2023 14: 22
      Quote: Illanatol
      Quote from solar
      30 km is the dynamic ceiling of the Mig-31, and it is almost impossible to use a cannon at this altitude - maneuvers are needed to aim, and the author himself emphasizes that they are impossible.


      But the gun itself doesn’t turn? Well, yes, in the past the plane itself was aimed at the target, but nowadays the barrels are hardly rigidly fixed... for helicopters - definitely not, why should it be different with airplanes?
      The fighter does not need to rise to a height of 30 km. Makes a "slide" and shoots from bottom to top. The flight range of the projectiles is at least 5 km.
      Maneuvers at high altitudes are possible for airplanes with high-powered aircraft; rockets with gas-dynamic rudders are also effective (their effectiveness, unlike planes, does not decrease in rarefied air).

      On airplanes, as before, the main barrel is hidden in the body because the laws of aerodynamics have not yet been canceled.
    2. 0
      10 February 2023 17: 45
      Illanatol
      But the gun itself doesn’t turn?

      Rotating guns used to be on turrets. On fighter planes they were always mounted motionless. At high flight speeds of jet aircraft, it is almost impossible to aim a “rotating” gun and hit the target

      The fighter does not need to rise to a height of 30 km. Makes a "slide" and shoots from bottom to top. The flight range of the projectiles is at least 5 km.

      Up - maximum 500 meters. Not even vertically, but at an angle. The mass of the projectiles is too small and they quickly lose energy

      Maneuvers at high altitudes are possible for aircraft with OVT

      At high altitudes, turbojet engines stall due to lack of air and the wings cease to support. When trying to maintain altitude, the plane simply falls with a stalled engine.

      Just don’t offer interceptors with rocket engines - that happened
  57. +1
    9 February 2023 14: 22
    Quote from: newtc7
    The Chinese do not disdain balloons, and our Defense Ministry still cannot understand what is the use of their S-500 with a range of 600 km, because ground-based radars at such a range only see what flies very high, and now nothing flies high except for Chinese balloon))


    The expert... is aware that there is an ionosphere from which radio waves are reflected? How do VHFs work over long distances? And that radars, even not the most modern ones, are capable of working on over-the-horizon targets?
  58. 0
    9 February 2023 14: 31
    Quote: Alexey RA
    In reality, it was said that the USSR had a strong defense industry and space, for which we are grateful and of which we are still proud. But consumer goods were produced too little and too poorly.


    Are they releasing more now? Well, please with statistics on the production of domestic cars, household appliances, electronics, etc.
    The priorities were different. First of all, it was necessary to provide citizens with housing, and only then - with what Soviet citizens could drag into their apartments. Up to 40% of all capital investments were spent on housing construction and infrastructure development. Let's add costs for the fuel and energy complex and the military-industrial complex. What was left there for consumer goods?
    Alas, we started from a very low start, and the material losses from the Second World War were colossal. So it's not surprising.
    And what’s bad... “expensive but cute, cheap but rotten.” What to do, the majority of fellow citizens had such incomes that the majority simply could not afford high-quality (but expensive) goods. And there were not enough wealthy people to quantitatively satisfy the demand for goods. Well, now it’s the same. We still live in an era of total shortage... a shortage of domestic, more or less high-quality goods that are affordable. Remove imports, “screwdriver assembly”, obvious counterfeits from the shelves... what remains? Same thing.
    1. 0
      10 February 2023 10: 31
      Quote: Illanatol
      The priorities were different. First of all, it was necessary to provide citizens with housing, and only then - with what Soviet citizens could drag into their apartments. Up to 40% of all capital investments were spent on housing construction and infrastructure development.

      Wow, a very correct term - was leaving. There was also a term master funds. This is when nothing has been done “in hardware”, but on paper the money has already been spent and the work has been closed.
      How long was the queue for an apartment there in a year? And how many housing construction programs were adopted in the USSR? Pomnitsa, the last of them bore the proud name Housing-2000.
      Quote: Illanatol
      And what’s bad... “expensive but cute, cheap but rotten.” What can you do, the majority of fellow citizens had such incomes that the majority simply could not afford high-quality (but expensive) goods. And there were not enough wealthy people to quantitatively satisfy the demand for goods.

      It's not about quality. It's a matter of assortment. Light industry didn't give a damn about demand - they had a plan in pieces and they carried it out. And let the trade have a headache about sales.
      So it turned out that the stores were filled with goods in the style goodbye youth (not cheap, by the way) - but there’s nothing to wear. And about quality... do you have any complaints about the buttons? © wink
      As a result, the state with its own hands gave birth to guild workers and black marketeers. At the same time, depriving the budget of income and withdrawing quite large funds to gray zone.
  59. 0
    9 February 2023 19: 29
    Quote: Alexey RA
    In reality, it was said that the USSR had a strong defense industry and space, for which we are grateful and of which we are still proud. But consumer goods were produced too little and too poorly.

    I looked at the country galoshes. Made in China... The secret of making galoshes in the Russian Federation has been lost... Like many other things.
  60. 0
    9 February 2023 19: 42
    Some experts say that the Americans were really waiting for the balloon to heat up in the sun so that it could be captured by the IR seeker of the AIM-9X Sidewinder missile.

    If such a bubble entered Russian space, an unpleasant surprise would await it there in the form of a Mig-31

    Why all this fuss? request
    Even if you imagine that they waited until this ball dropped 18 km or warmed up because they couldn’t get it (although I don’t believe in such nonsense like they had nothing to shoot down with) soldier ) then why was it necessary to fire rockets at all? After all, it would be easier to actually use the m61 Vulcan cannon hi
    1. +1
      10 February 2023 01: 56
      Here the joke is different. The United States, in principle, does not, in our (Soviet-Russian) understanding, have air defense. It was simply unnecessary for them. This is the geostrategic position. That’s why they crushed the rolls for so long. And the balls themselves in the decimeter range are tracked in an elementary way, but by modern over-the-horizon sensors (relatively modern, manufactured in 1985-1995) track all objects the size of an orange. But the catch is that you can’t aim anti-aircraft missiles at them, and the seekers operate in the microwave range for which the balloon shells are transparent, like any plastic. They could easily handle it SAM systems from the 50s, but now you can only find them in museums.
  61. 0
    10 February 2023 01: 43
    Everything is new, well-forgotten old - this is said in the Old Testament.
  62. The comment was deleted.
  63. 0
    10 February 2023 11: 27
    free-falling bombs dropped from the MIG-25 RB flew to the target approximately 40 km. I don’t remember from what height. Kazaryan needs to be re-read
  64. +1
    10 February 2023 14: 05
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Wow, that’s a very correct term - it was leaving. There was also a term for mastering funds. This is when nothing has been done “in hardware”, but on paper the money has already been spent and the work has been closed.
    How long was the queue for an apartment there in a year? And how many housing construction programs were adopted in the USSR? Pomnitsa, the last of them bore the proud name Housing-2000.


    It's good to drive. They built a lot. It’s just that the pace of urbanization in the USSR was simply crazy. From 13% of the urban population (find out in which century England crossed the urbanization threshold of 13%) to 75% by the end.
    More than half of the cities in the Russian Federation were either founded or received city status during the 70 years of Soviet power.

    And “developing funds” is for the Democrats. Chubais, for example, is a master in this matter. He has greatly developed our energy and nanotechnology.
    We are still riding on the legacy of socialism, otherwise we would be on the same level as Africa (not the most developed).

    Quote: Alexey RA
    It's not about quality. It's a matter of assortment. Light industry didn't give a damn about demand - they had a plan in pieces and they carried it out. And let the trade have a headache about sales.
    So it turned out that the stores were filled with goods in the style of goodbye, youth (not cheap, by the way) - but there was nothing to wear. As for the quality... do you have any complaints about the buttons?
    As a result, the state with its own hands gave birth to guild workers and black marketeers. At the same time, depriving the budget of income and withdrawing quite large funds into the gray zone.


    Yeah, they walked around naked and barefoot. Yes, the notorious “fashionability” was not a high priority; there were more important things. As for the quality... it’s as if the current Chinese junk suffers from an excess of quality. For most, only Chinese is available.
    Prices... yes, prices were often high. Because they often contained hidden taxes (which, however, also exist now).

    I partly agree. Yes, it was the reforms of Kosygin, beloved by liberals, that allowed the “shadow economy” to flourish. But what happened next? After the so-called "democratic reforms"?
    Our entire economy went into the “gray zone” in the 90s and is still partly there. And the black and speculative market prevails in our country. Tax evasion has been brought to the level of art.

    “The shortcomings of the Soviet system constitute the essence of the current system.”

    P.S. Are you still not pleased with the statistics on the production of consumer goods in the current Russian Federation?
    Only those who can do it better themselves have the moral right to criticize someone else’s work.
  65. 0
    10 February 2023 17: 39
    Again, a mischievous article. The author does not understand that 30 km for the MiG-25/31 is a dynamic ceiling. The plane gains this altitude from acceleration, and actually flies along the trajectory of a thrown stone. It handles very poorly in this mode; the rudders barely work in normal air. And such acceleration can only be achieved at high supersonic speeds, when there is very little time for precise aiming. The plane cannot stay at this altitude even for short shooting. Therefore, talking about shooting from a cannon is simply ridiculous. It would be a miracle if the pilot could aim and hit the ball.
    By the way, the F-15 also jumps to the same 30 km from acceleration, why didn’t we use it?
    But the ball can fly even higher, and light shells from an air cannon are unlikely to rise higher than half a kilometer (while maintaining their destructive effect).
    But missiles are very real weapons. I think that the missiles already used by the Russian Aerospace Forces can be modified
  66. 0
    11 February 2023 03: 01
    And if you hang up not only reconnaissance equipment, but something very harmful, then finally someone becomes sad
  67. 0
    14 February 2023 17: 35
    And this is where you take the laser. The shell doesn't need much.
  68. 0
    16 February 2023 19: 52
    Isn't it destined to make a jet-powered fighter like a rocket? The ceiling will increase.
  69. 0
    17 February 2023 08: 30
    TV GNs, which are used in surface-to-air missiles, but they require almost ideal weather conditions to track a high-contrast target and have a short range.
    If you launch a rocket from an airplane, it will have to travel 10-15 km. Is its range enough for such a feat?) Of course, visibility is not always perfect there, but finding a “window” for such a slow and predictable target is not difficult. It seems that everything is happening as always - just no one thought. What can you do, the tradition is not to think twice...
  70. 0
    17 February 2023 10: 34
    [quote=Jafar]starting from the cannons firing up 16km
    KS-30, 130 mm, reach at an altitude of 19800 m. Mass-produced in the USSR.
  71. The comment was deleted.

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