Feature of the revolutionary democrats of the XIX century

91
Feature of the revolutionary democrats of the XIX century

There have always been dissatisfied with the current government. Another reformer of the late XNUMXth century, Radishchev, the author of Journey from St. Petersburg to Moscow, wanted some kind of change. And they, these dissatisfied, regularly expressed their claims. If we take the XNUMXth century, it began with the action of the Decembrists, who brought their soldiers to the Senate Square under buckshot.

Noble, what is there to feel sorry for these illiterate soldiers. The goals and objectives of these nobles were vague, in particular, even Pushkin wrote about Lunin "... and muttered with inspiration" ... [1]. They typed some kind of naive political and economic program, so it is still incorrect to call their actions a palace coup.



Later, in the middle of the XNUMXth century, there were Petrashevites, when the future writer D. F. Dostoevsky suffered. All of them proposed reforms in the system of government of the country. Well, they want and want, they can’t even eat. Naturally, the sovereignty of the country was implied by itself.

And then Chernyshevsky opened the "period of the Raznochinsk revolutionary movement." And with the raznochintsy, whom "Herzen woke up with his bell," it turned out to be somewhat different. Recently, I came across a book by Academician M.V. Nechkina "The Meeting of Two Generations", a collection of articles from stories Russian revolutionary movement of the late 50s - early 60s of the XIX century (Photo 1) [2].


There, on pages 196–221, there is, in particular, a document written by Ogaryov in 1859 - "Ideals" - the goal, methods and organization of society, as he imagined it all. Brief abstracts of this work.

Ogaryov's ideals


The purpose of society is to initiate social peace on the basis of communal land ownership. The main principle is community self-government. The self-government of the community excludes the interference of the government administration, state legal proceedings and even legislation in the affairs of the community. The highest level of administrative unity for several communities does not go beyond the boundaries of the volost. The connection between the volosts is confederal.

The issues of inter-volost communication are as follows:

1. Communication routes (railways and other land roads, river and sea navigation).
2. Issue of money and credit institutions.
3. Intervolost commission trading offices.
4. Foreign commission trading offices.
5. General budget of the confederation and tax.


The tax is twofold:

• permanent - for the maintenance of power;
• variable - for all-confederal enterprises.


The form of the central government is the committee. The volost chooses one candidate each, who, having gathered, choose among themselves ministers for each of the above questions, and these ministers choose their president from among themselves. The candidates then disperse and leave the cabinet to act.

Presumably, Russia, with its current borders, could be grouped according to two principles - according to the principle of breed (he’s talking about nationalities, this is a heterogeneous breeder) and according to the principle of crafts (that is, the economic principle, so to speak, fuel and energy complex - territorial economic complexes), in the following alliances:

1. Central Russian
2. Baltic
3. Polish-Lithuanian
4. Belomorsky
5. Volzhsky
6. Ukrainian
7. Novorossiysk or Black Sea
8. Ural-Siberian and
9. Amur.


Neither the central government nor its union agencies can go beyond their questions; the executive police and the judiciary in all cases remain local, volost. If the central government intervenes in matters other than its own, the volost refuses to assist it.

The tax is determined by the central authority as a result of the budget, but is distributed and collected by the volost order independently of the central authority.

Center in Russia in constant communication with the main body in London


Further Ogaryov writes:

“Two questions that I am unable to pose even as ideals: the question of public education, i.e. scientific propaganda, and the question of the army against foreign enemies - a sad question, but perhaps still necessary - where to attribute them: to the central authorities or to community-volost self-government? Don't know".

And everything would be fine, you never know what another guardian of the domestic peasant dreams of, just like the perestroika asphalt farmer Chernichenko, it is clear that these communal "sovnarkhozes" are, in principle, unviable, but on page 200 in the "Organization of Society" section, Ogaryov is the first paragraph gives:

The center in Russia is in constant communication with the main body in London.

The sixth point is:

Between the center in Russia and the center in London there should be traveling correspondents and their own mail (Photo 2).


I believe that raznochintsy such as the literary heroes of Turgenev - Rakhmetov, Insarov and Bazarov, were still far from the ideas of external government of the country. However, they were raznochinny grassroots revolutionaries, Ogaryov's slanderous ideas, I think, did not pass there.

References:
1. A. S. Pushkin. Eugene Onegin, vol. V, chapter 10, ed. AN SSSR, 1949, p. 212
2. M. V. Nechkina. Meeting of two generations, Science, 1980
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  1. +6
    9 February 2023 04: 57
    The events of "December 25" is a lesson that one must skillfully manage the "social lift" so that people with high ambitions can implement them for the benefit of the country
    1. +14
      9 February 2023 06: 28
      Everything is so, only according to my observations over the past two decades, those to whom this lesson is intended are not going to take it into account at all ... And things are still there ..
    2. +20
      9 February 2023 09: 16
      For some reason, everyone forgets that for the successful existence of the country, the social elevator must work not only up, but also down, for those who have particularly distinguished themselves - to the very execution cellar. And down - with no less intensity than up, because the top is not rubber.
      1. +11
        9 February 2023 11: 54
        the social elevator should work not only upwards
        Currently, the social elevator only works on the upper floors. It doesn't go down at all. At the bottom, climb the stairs ..
    3. +9
      9 February 2023 14: 33
      A highly questionable statement...

      And who there, "in 1825", would become a "potential passenger" of the aforementioned "social elevator"? .. Yakushkin, or what? .. Or the same hussar Lunin? ..

      I have long been surprised by completely meaningless "arguments", precisely in relation to the so-called. "Decembrists". The very CONCEPTUAL intellectual wretchedness of which, OBJECTIVELY seen already in the FACT ITSELF, their attempts to put Russia "on the Western path", WITH THE OBJECTIVE ABSENCE OF MINIMUM and OBJECTIVELY REQUIRED SOCIO-ECONOMIC prerequisites for this ...

      Those. in their TOTAL LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of the REAL and OBJECTIVE UNREADiness of the country for "Western reformism". Moreover, on the path of "rapid transformation", along the lines of "liberate all the peasants" ...

      Those. WITH THE ACTUAL ABSENCE of Russia at that time, the CLASS of the bourgeoisie, which had already gained "the fat of economic well-being" in order to realize their emotional desires in political ambitions and political constitutionalization in state power ...

      In those very "Europes" on which these "reformers" from Senate Square looked in 1825, the coup d'etaters who overthrew the regimes, in France or, even more so, on the Islands, the "bourgeois" already relied on the INTERESTS ALREADY BORN. Let's say the peasants were "liberated" there by the "cleansing of the lands" MASSIVELY. AND EVERYWHERE, EVERYTHING, "through" a BLOODY CIVIL WAR went on, by the way ...

      Even in DEVELOPED INDUSTRIAL Germany, in 1848, i.e. 20 years later "after the Decembrists", the notorious "bourgeois reformism" ALREADY BORN, not sickly bourgeoisie muddied ...

      And Papa Bismarck, in the cause of REAL bourgeois reformism and development, in the interests of the EXPLOITING classes, further, quite a clear "showed the path" ...

      So, the Russian tsars, it was in 1825 and "further" for 35 - 45 years, that the Russian Empire did quite a big service OBJECTIVELY for themselves.

      Not giving the opportunity to "armchair theorists" from "bourgeois revolutions" to engage in "experiments" in a peasant-landowner country STILL OBJECTIVELY UNprepared for such "reformism" ... This is what saved the latter from collapse ...
      1. +10
        9 February 2023 15: 23
        By the way, and the aforementioned "social lift" in Russia, already under Peter the Great, i.e. LONG before the so-called. "Decembrists" is quite robust, for "ambitious and active" he worked. Moreover, for THEM, even in "both directions" ...

        Stolen or failed?
        1. +1
          9 February 2023 20: 39
          Quote: ABC-schütze
          By the way, and the aforementioned "social lift" in Russia, already under Peter the Great, i.e. LONG before the so-called. "Decembrists" is quite robust, for "ambitious and active" he worked. Moreover, for THEM, even in "both directions" ...

          Stolen or failed?

          Eh ... to return those times and today ... good drinks
          1. 0
            18 February 2023 10: 37
            I will re-read your article more than once, Sergey. At the same time, I read modern articles by various authors on the net about that time. Interesting analogies arise ..... For example, there was this. The opposition of that time was for the Poles, as for the fighters against the autocracy. Did the Poles fight against the Austrian or Prussian autocracy?
            The Caucasian wars went on for about 60 years. As I read after your article, the opposition did not agree here either. Yes, it's hard on the economy, and also, the goals weren't clear to many.
            It is interesting that in Soviet books I did not meet criticism of that opposition to the Tsar, and, accordingly, I did not meet the praise of the royal foresight in collecting Russian lands either. But the Bolsheviks preserved these lands, collected by the tsars, ensured their development, and the modern Russian bourgeois were let through. And from whom then can they draw the line recourse recourse continuity request historical
  2. +10
    9 February 2023 05: 39
    Center in Russia in constant communication with the main body in London

    The liberals of that time were not much different from those of today, who go to complain to the American embassy ...
  3. +13
    9 February 2023 06: 35
    It should be noted that Pestel's Russkaya Pravda is one of the draft Constitutions prepared for Russia by this handful of bloodthirsty scoundrels, who were later called Decembrists. This Pestel's Russkaya Pravda, as a draft Constitution, is real racial segregation. they are already divided into native Russians, from a tribe, annexed, foreigners living in Russia. Dividing the country according to the caste principle in the conditions of a huge number of native population in Russia would lead to a split and disintegration. split and
    death .
    And there is no doubt that these Decembrists acted independently. After the victory of Russia over Europe by conquering Napoleon, Europe could not allow such glory to Russia. Russia failed to destroy the intervention, so get Russia state. coup from inside . Well then it didn't work...
    1. +5
      9 February 2023 12: 05
      Decembrists would win
      Yes, they could not win, from the word at all .. There were few real, violent ones among them. Yes, and according to the constitutions they wrote, it is clear that they were terribly far from the people. "Theirs", climbed on "theirs", for their own purposes.
  4. +6
    9 February 2023 08: 22
    All of them proposed reforms in the system of government of the country. Well, they want and want, they can’t even eat. Naturally, the sovereignty of the country was implied by itself.
    Well, autocracy by this time was already rapidly becoming obsolete. In general, it was a natural process of developing new ideas and not only in Russia (you can remember the same Fourierists). Marxism, for example, did not appear out of the blue.
  5. +2
    9 February 2023 08: 22
    Very unexpected...
    Bravo, Sergey!
  6. +6
    9 February 2023 09: 05
    Hmm... Athas. The author rolled the liberote right on the faces)))
  7. +5
    9 February 2023 09: 32
    "Confederation of rural communities" with its administrative center in London... I had a lot of laughs. laughing
    1. -1
      9 February 2023 10: 21
      What's there to laugh about? Purely manipulative article. Moreover, with elements of obvious fraud.
      Russia, with real borders, could be grouped according to two principles - according to the principle of breed

      Under the "breed" in the time of Ogarev was understood as class affiliation. It is in this sense that he uses the word. And Ogarev, the owner of 4000 revision souls, cannot be attributed to the "raznochintsy".
      In the same way, the author pedals the theme of London, without explaining why London, in fact, appears in the text.
      In general, if one of those who rushed to write about the "liberals" bothered to read the entire article from which the author pulled out a fragment for his manipulations, he would be surprised to know that Ogarev, in the opinion of the respected Militsa Vasilievna Nechkina and all of Soviet historical science, was bright a representative of Russian utopian socialism, the doctrine of the transformation of society on socialist principles, about which lovers of kicking "liberalists" still yearn so much. And Ogarev saw a peasant revolution as a way of such a transformation. In addition, he tried to build this same socialism "in a single patrimony", on which he went bankrupt, becoming a beggar from a millionaire.
      1. -1
        9 February 2023 10: 27
        Quote: Ruyter-57
        In general, if one of those who rushed to write about "liberals" bothered to read the entire article
        Well, this is a distinctive feature of the conditional "patriots". I won’t be surprised if they soon write down Emelyan Pugachev and Stepan Razin as “liberals” who raised the people against traditional values ​​in the form of serfdom lol
        1. -2
          9 February 2023 10: 39
          I won’t be surprised if they soon write down Emelyan Pugachev and Stepan Razin as “liberals” who raised the people against traditional values ​​in the form of serfdom
          And you know, such things are already appearing. They don’t write to “liberals”, but they write to “foreign agents”. Like, they were agents of foreign "general staffs". smile
      2. 0
        9 February 2023 14: 54
        It is interesting to observe the "opinion of the masses". You immediately understand that the well-known specialist S.P. gave an exhaustive description of the majority. Naked-tailed.
      3. +1
        9 February 2023 14: 59
        Quote: Ruyter-57
        What's there to laugh about?

        Well, I don't know... I think it's funny. But for some reason it seems that the main Petrosyan here is not Ogaryov. laughing
        The author did not inspire confidence in me, he presented the concept of his hero in a painfully miserable and grotesque way.
        1. +3
          9 February 2023 19: 41
          The author did not inspire confidence in me, he presented the concept of his hero in a painfully miserable and grotesque way.
          Try to present his concept in a different way. Only with documents. And then recently, one of my respected interlocutors stated that in his view, the development of society according to Stalin is stuffing the belly. Of course, no links.
      4. +3
        9 February 2023 19: 38
        In general, if one of those who rushed to write about "liberals" bothered to read the entire article, from which the author pulled out a fragment for his manipulations,
        Should I send you the entire article by Nechkina, or will you find it yourself on the Internet? And where is the manipulation? Did I mess up the text? No one from London wanted to listen to management advice?
        1. +2
          16 February 2023 15: 39
          Good day, Sergey! hi Since the first reading of your article, I have read various sources, and it turned out that I learned something else, completely new! For example, they often make fun of the topic, so to speak, of the personal life of Herzen, Herweg and Ogaryov. And I don't see anything wrong with that! You never know who has some kind of intimacy, by modern standards ... But on the other hand, Herzen's words about patriotism as about syphilis, I have not heard from anyone!
          All of Russia was gripped by the syphilis of patriotism

          He wrote this during the Crimean War! Or about Polish events ---
          It's a shame to be Russian!

          Well, just the ancestor of Akhedzhakova! During---
          ..... another uprising in Poland, when a massacre of "Muscovites" was staged there ...... called on the Western powers to "crusade" against their Fatherland

          The liberals of that time sympathized with the Poles, and
          ....... freedom-loving highlanders. During the Caucasian wars, the St. Petersburg high society obstructed Yermolov, Evdokimov and other heroes ......

          And another similar one in the same spirit! Somehow I went nuts.
          1. +1
            16 February 2023 16: 04
            You see, Dmitri, the image of Herzen was canonized as a "fighter against tsarism", as if Lenin himself had a hand in this, and so he shone, this "best friend of the Poles" from London. At one time (80 years) a series of small hardcover books was produced. the series was called "Fiery Revolutionaries". There, with obvious admiration, so much was thrown at this unscrupulous dissident that I was even horrified - how did I consider him a decent person for so long? Well, liberal. it is the same at all times.
            As you can see, the brothers in the class have gathered. And even then Okudzhavka demanded to erect a monument to Basayev in honor of his capture of the maternity hospital.
        2. +2
          16 February 2023 16: 59
          It is interesting that at that time there were different phenomena similar to today. For example, admiration for the West and squandering abroad, the desire for liberal changes, international agreements unfavorable for Russia. Including --- Alaska.
          Separatism developed on the outskirts of the Empire ..... Foreign intelligence agencies found agents.
          And the emerging and developing capitalism contributed to theft at all levels
          1. +1
            16 February 2023 17: 11
            international agreements unfavorable for Russia. Including --- Alaska.
            With Alaska, you're wrong. This is a philistine opinion, I remember it from the 60s, and, probably, there were whiners before. Just one small question - in the event of an American annexation, how would the Republic of Ingushetia return this territory to itself? Look, Mexico never got Texas back, it would be the same here. And the money from the sale of Alaska went to the development of railroads.
            1. 0
              17 February 2023 20: 49
              I welcome you Sergey! hi
              I tried to learn more about the liberal views of that time. And, recalling the HISTORY OF THE XIX CENTURY (1937 in 8 volumes), I once again became angry at Kosciuszko's praises, as (fighters against the autocracy,) abuse of Russian soldiers, because we still have Kosciuszko Street. However, not only in our city.
              I read about the events of that time and Herzen's activities in defense of the Poles. And Herzen did not address the European participants in the division. He did not shame Austria and Prussia. And he did not speak out against the polonation of Belarusians and Ukrainians. Not to mention the number of overseas colonies that England owned. This, if compared with Russia in the Caucasus. And if not for Russia in the Caucasus, in Central Asia, there would be England. Like in one of Harry Harrison's science fiction novels. So?
              Quote: Aviator_
              ..... money from the sale of Alaska went to the development of railways.

              I have read about the loss of this little money in transit. Isn't that right, Sergey? Sincerely
      5. +5
        9 February 2023 19: 46
        Under the "breed" in the time of Ogarev was understood as class affiliation.
        Can you link? And that is very unfounded.
        that Ogarev, in the opinion of the respected Militsa Vasilievna Nechkina and all of Soviet historical science, was a prominent representative of Russian utopian socialism,
        Here the classical utopians (Fourier, Saint-Simon and the like) did not plan external control for their communities. And the opinion of Nechkina does not bother me.
        1. +2
          9 February 2023 20: 25
          Good evening, Sergey! hi After reading your article, now it will be necessary to read about that time again. Recently, some information new to me has come across ..... It seemed that they had already read about the Decembrists, looked through ..... But no. I recently read about their "interesting" thoughts and plans for Poland .... It's good that they couldn't, it turns out.
          I am glad for your article, I look forward to the next publications. Sincerely
          1. +5
            9 February 2023 20: 36
            Hello Dmitry. I looked through this book for a long time, but then the thesis about the London government somehow went unnoticed, then I was surprised by the fragmentation of the country into separate, practically independent territories. It was necessary to shade this aspect in this note too.
            1. +2
              9 February 2023 20: 50
              Quote: Aviator_
              ..... the thesis about the London government somehow went unnoticed, then I was surprised by the fragmentation of the country .....

              And something else surprises me, Sergey! How did all this come to be what happened? Revolution of 1917, the victory of the Bolsheviks in the Civil,
              building Socialism in one country!
              1. +4
                9 February 2023 22: 27
                How did all this come to be what happened?
                Well, the government has demonstrated its absolute unreformability. And it didn't happen right away. It took almost 100 years. All according to Hegel, dialectics, however.
                1. +2
                  9 February 2023 22: 41
                  wink In no way am I condemning the Bolsheviks for creating a "line of succession," which in fact did not exist! One way or another, mythologems try to build different regimes.
                  only everyone can

                  It turned out from the Great French, to the Decembrists, (none of them let the serfs go free) to the populists, ..... Apparently, it was necessary that way. That is, many of the actions of the Bolsheviks took place as if they had the best specialists in PR. laughing For example, the current Russian elite tried to create a "line of succession." And from whom? Can not found. Pathetic attempts were observed. laughing
                  neither here nor there

                  Maybe they'll come to their senses now recourse
                  1. +3
                    10 February 2023 18: 21
                    That is, many actions of the Bolsheviks took place as if they had the best PR specialists.
                    Dmitry, explain your thought. I did not notice any piarastny encroachments from the Bolsheviks. On the contrary, they were not talkers, like the Social Democrats (Mensheviks), but people of action (like the Socialist-Revolutionaries), only with a smart program, unlike the Socialist-Revolutionaries.
                    1. +3
                      10 February 2023 19: 01
                      hi I greet you, Sergey! Speaking of the best PR specialist, I meant exactly
                      top

                      possessing knowledge and practice, and not those corrupt slimes and stuck, who denigrated the Soviet era for a jar of jam and tried to destroy the USSR.
                      For example, the Bolsheviks built a "line of succession", which commanded respect and explained that people always fought for
                      freedom, equality, brotherhood

                      They died and fought again.
                      Or, for example, a brilliant poster
                      Did you sign up as a volunteer?

                      And the whites, trying to create something similar at the same time, came up with nonsense.
                      1. +4
                        10 February 2023 19: 12
                        Or, for example, a brilliant poster
                        Did you sign up as a volunteer?
                        Dmitry, this poster is a tracing paper from the American, it seems, from the time of their Civil War. The poster is good, another thing is that posters work only for a specific period of time and for specific people of a specific generation. That is, they have a very narrow time orientation. The whites during our Civil War had no ideas at all, except for the desire to return everything as it was and go on vacation in Paris and Nice. As a result, they went there, but not in the quality they dreamed of. And all because the majority of the population did not want to live "as it was."
                      2. +3
                        10 February 2023 20: 03
                        And why did White unsuccessfully make tracing paper? The Bolsheviks always had a lot of working posters.
                        As well as later. When it was necessary that people work and a lot. And with enthusiasm they overfulfilled the norms themselves, and not under duress.
                        And what about the modern PRs? They didn’t find anyone the current government could rely on in the past laughing They tried to attract Stolypin as a hero --- they didn’t get it. They can’t tell the truth, they can’t come up with something beautiful. They even came up with dill! Nonsense and lies, but their people are being led
                      3. +4
                        10 February 2023 20: 26
                        And what about the modern PRists? They didn’t find anyone to rely on in the past for the current government laughing They tried to attract Stolypin as a hero --- they didn’t get it. They can neither tell the truth nor think up something beautiful.
                        Well, we have a lot of different rotten heroes trying to promote - Kolchak, for example, too. Yes, and Mannerheim. So after all, the product is smelly, stale. There can be only one idea - social justice, but at the same time you have to offend the oligarchs, "brothers in the class." But the Sumerians did not come up with anything, there is no one and nothing to think about. They row "hataskrayniks" on the streets, and use the slogan that Ostap Bender proclaimed at a meeting of the "Union of the Sword and Oral" - "The West will help us!" At least look - when and to whom did he, the West, help?
                      4. +3
                        10 February 2023 21: 01
                        laughing the Sumerians invented a nation and the significance of this nation.
                        After all, in the Great French, too, they came up with continuity from antiquity. Inspired and worked well. Although, in fact, it did not match.
                        Quote: Aviator_
                        ..... we have a lot of different rotten heroes trying to promote - ....

                        Well, yes! Orders from above that cannot be realized despite the money thrown away. But the fact that the real modern Heroes remain in obscurity or their exploits are little covered, this is the worst, in my opinion
    2. +11
      9 February 2023 10: 30
      with its capital in London...I had a lot of laughs
      Ogaryov, stood at the origins of "populism" - communal socialism. He had a wide circle of followers in Russia. And I think it's worth remembering one populist, the "grandfather", of the Russian revolution N. Tchaikovsky. Soviet power in Arkhangelsk. The "government of the Northern Region" included 2 Social Revolutionaries, 1918 Cadets, and the "People's Socialist" Tchaikovsky became the chairman of this government. The new government proclaimed as its slogan "the restoration of trampled freedoms and organs of true democracy." The "democratic" government of the Northern Region, headed by the populist Tchaikovsky managed to let more than 6% of the inhabitants of the region pass through their camps and prisons, 2 thousand out of 10 thousand of the population went to jail. in history, the name in his honor is not a royal satrap and not a retrograde, but a completely progressive and progressive figure.
      1. +15
        9 February 2023 10: 57
        If we extrapolate to all this brethren, then one comrade very correctly remarked at one time:
        "They are terribly far from the people"
    3. +9
      9 February 2023 12: 49
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      "Confederation of rural communities" with its administrative center in London... I had a lot of laughs

      What about "apostles" and semi-initiates? a violent mixture of Mithraism and Freemasonry hi
      1. 0
        10 February 2023 09: 29
        Quote: Mihaylov
        ...... Mithraism ......

        And how did the ancient Persians worship the Invincible Mithra --- the God of Light? It is known that Mithra created the World from the parts of the Bull he killed........
        And his priests dug a hole in the ground, climbed in there, put an iron grate on top, on it --- a freshly slaughtered Bull ... blood flowed ... and the priests drank it and smeared themselves ... Full buzz
  8. +6
    9 February 2023 10: 01
    document written by Ogaryov in 1859 - "Ideals"
    Well, everything is clear here, the republic is a federation with a single central government, with the granting of independence to its constituent entities. Only, here is "the government, lives on another planet, dear" (c) Which is quite understandable, so as not to interfere with community management in places.
  9. +11
    9 February 2023 10: 36
    Ogarev is disgusting, a bright representative of those whom Dostoevsky called demons, for the sake of interest, he read some of his poetic creations, the conclusion is that he was in vain straining his brain activity for such writing.
    I immediately remember the movie character Blotter ........ and, I can talk like that.
    1. -1
      9 February 2023 11: 42
      a bright representative of those whom Dostoevsky called demons
      Yeah, Dostoevsky, himself one of them, one of the Petrashevites .. And then, as it turned out, he "lost the right path." And with whom he hobnobbed, he called demons .. smile
      1. +7
        9 February 2023 11: 57
        Quote: kor1vet1974
        Dostoevsky, himself one of them, from the Petrashevites.

        Yes, everything is so, for this reason Fyodor Mikhailovich knew all this audience well, so to speak - from the inside.
        Quote: kor1vet1974
        And then, as it turned out, "lost the right path"

        Dostoevsky was cured by the Omsk prison, returned to the right path.
        1. +3
          9 February 2023 12: 12
          Dostoevsky was cured by the Omsk prison, returned to the right path.
          I sat, thought, realized that if you go to the wrestlers, you will spend your whole life in hard labor. And he has a talent.
          1. +2
            9 February 2023 12: 33
            embarked on a path to recovery.
            And lost everything in cards)))
            1. +1
              9 February 2023 12: 43
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              And lost everything in cards)))

              Didn't he play roulette? hi
              1. +2
                9 February 2023 13: 08
                Hello, Sergey!
                That's right, roulette! Went to Europe and hung out in Wiesbaden.
                1. +3
                  9 February 2023 14: 42
                  According to the maps, Nekrasov was a specialist))
                2. +3
                  9 February 2023 15: 54
                  I was in Wiesbaden in May 95. I was not inside the casino.

                  From the outside it's gorgeous!
                  Do you know that Abramovich paid off Fyodor Mikhailovich's debt?
                  1. +3
                    9 February 2023 16: 11
                    No, not in the know.
                    And I never went to the casino ... I wanted to go to Rhodes, one of the oldest gambling establishments in Greece, but I didn’t have any documents with me, and the next day we flew away.
                    1. +2
                      9 February 2023 16: 20
                      They say about 240 K€

                      Do not subtract or add.
                      Kolya, who at that time lived in Wiesbaden, took us to a Greek restaurant, center-center, the guy who was with me when he was asked what you want? The answer is beer.
                      The Greek immediately rushed over and brought a huge mug of beer - Pivo the first, he said.
                  2. +3
                    9 February 2023 16: 14
                    Quote: ee2100
                    Do you know that Abramovich paid off Fyodor Mikhailovich's debt?

                    Romanov? laughing
                    1. +3
                      9 February 2023 16: 44
                      Hello, Sergey!
                      Did he also have debts in Wiestbaden?
                      1. +3
                        9 February 2023 16: 48
                        Good afternoon, Alexander!
                        Did he also have debts in Wiestbaden?

                        This question is unknown to science, however, dad could have debts in Poland ... laughing
                      2. +3
                        9 February 2023 17: 08
                        Folk Russian fun - throw a Pole!
                      3. +2
                        9 February 2023 17: 12
                        Quote: ee2100
                        Folk Russian fun - throw a Pole!

                        I would say not "throw a Pole", but - "offend a Pole" laughing
                      4. +2
                        9 February 2023 17: 27
                        Sergey - you are wrong!
                        Resentment is not material!
                        You can't feel the loss! And pieniadze is something that warms the soul!
                        I have Polish friends and like all of them are different.
                        He wrote more than once that the Poles had a chance to become a great country when they put Vladislav IV on the Russian throne and that's it ... I thought what synonym to pick up, they themselves scoffed.
                        And now you see the capital would be in Krakow!
                      5. +3
                        9 February 2023 17: 35
                        Quote: ee2100
                        He wrote more than once that the Poles had a chance to become a great country

                        I agree - I was: 400 years ago, it’s probably already possible to finish sublimating on this occasion.
                        They tell us: forget about the Soviet Union - a thing of the past, but here people cannot calm down for 400 years. drinks
                      6. +1
                        9 February 2023 17: 56
                        Again I will say, Sergey, you are wrong!
                        They themselves do not understand their hatred for Russia, and the so-called. the elite pedals it all.
                        I don't have to explain to you how it works.
                        In Soviet times, there were and now are monuments to the victories over the troops of Tukhachsky.
                        These claims "" from sea to sea "they did not appear out of the blue.
                        By European standards, Poland is one of the major powers.
                        First of all, she is self-sufficient! She has everything. Plus a bunch of expert stuff.
                        I am quite aware of the post-socialist economic period, and Russia should have learned from Poland about this.
                        In short, who decides what for us is to the conspiracy theorists, where Anton went today
                        As a specialist in the Olenins, Pushkin overslept the meeting with the intended bride for a reason.
                        But that's conspiracy theories.
                      7. +1
                        9 February 2023 18: 09
                        Pushkin overslept the meeting with the intended bride for a reason.
                        What did the Masso-Jidon Masters of the West screw up here ???)))
                      8. 0
                        9 February 2023 18: 27
                        No. He got an offer he couldn't refuse.
                      9. 0
                        9 February 2023 18: 33
                        Oppanki! This is the fourth edition! Will you voice?
                      10. +1
                        9 February 2023 18: 48
                        Not here. In person or by email yes
                        Tttmmmssssss
                      11. +1
                        9 February 2023 18: 54
                        Let's go to WhatsApp, on Meilagent the letters are very small.
  10. +7
    9 February 2023 11: 32
    It's all a bit confusing...
    Where is Radishchev a reformer?
    Why is Dostoevsky a "future" writer? At the time of the trial of "Petrashevtsy" he was already fully established as a writer.
    Well, the fact that the "democrats" in the 19th century are still confused, as it were, is obvious.
    1. +4
      9 February 2023 19: 53
      Where is Radishchev a reformer?
      He wrote an opus on the topic “How can we equip Russia”, after reading which Catherine said: “This is a rebel worse than Pugachev”, after which she sent him into exile. It was brought back from there by Paul I.
      1. +2
        9 February 2023 22: 30
        Quote: Aviator_
        Wrote an opus on the topic "How do we equip Russia"

        Colleague, I know who Radishchev is ... but a "reformer" is still one who carries out reforms, or at worst plans them. But certainly not those who describe the unsightly reality!
        1. +3
          10 February 2023 18: 15
          But certainly not those who describe the unsightly reality!
          Ivan, if you are talking about "Journey from St. Petersburg to Moscow" - then this is not the right opus. In "Journey" there is the usual whining, which Pushkin sarcastically sorted out (there is in an academic publication). Radishchev really offered something there, and the "journey" is fiction.
  11. +8
    9 February 2023 13: 07
    The goals and objectives of these nobles were vague,

    In my opinion, their goals were quite specific and quite real: if you look at the goal of the Northern Society, then this is a constitutional monarchy with very real parameters:
    -separation of powers into legislature, executive and judiciary
    - the emperor is retained, but is only the head of the executive branch
    - the elimination of all class privileges and the equality of the inhabitants of Russia before the law
    - general elections, but high property qualification
    - liberation of the peasants, but with the preservation of the land fund from the landowners (hello to the reform of 1861)
    What exactly is unrealistic here?
    Yes, there you can find questions-raising theses, but life would make adjustments.
    They lost their revolution, due to the lack of experience in holding such "events" (and who has it?), But they could win everything hung in the balance and then it is not known how everything would turn out.
    The main negative result of their failed performance was the subsequent conservation of the feudal order, the consequences of which are well known to us. hi
    1. +5
      9 February 2023 14: 49
      Quote: Mihaylov
      In my opinion, their goals were quite specific and quite real.

      There are as many members of society as there are global projects for state restructuring.
      Quote: Mihaylov
      What exactly is unrealistic here?

      Combine them into one somewhat real program)))
      Quote: Mihaylov
      They lost their revolution, due to the lack of experience in holding such "events"

      Yes. The junta, consisting of professional military men, failed to cope with a fairly simple task - to organize a coup. As for experience, their fathers-grandfathers-great-grandfathers made such a kunshtuk at least three times in the 1801th century, and once again in XNUMX.
      1. +3
        9 February 2023 15: 13
        The junta, consisting of professional military men, failed to cope with a fairly simple task - to organize a coup.
        This junta was an open secret for the authorities. I will give you, Ivan, now one fact, perhaps somewhat conspiratorial, but which took place. The younger son of A.N. Olenin, who was then a member of the State Council, was a member of the "Northern Society". But a couple of months before the events on the Senate, he "suddenly" went abroad. And the agility with which the former comrades-in-arms began to knock on each other after the arrests is simply stunning.
        1. +2
          9 February 2023 15: 29
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          And the agility with which the former comrades-in-arms began to knock on each other after the arrests is simply stunning.

          Probably, in those conditions, trying to hide something was no longer relevant: everything had already happened. Further, those who were weaker in spirit only tried to belittle their guilt, it was already useless to deny it anyway. hi
        2. +2
          9 February 2023 15: 41
          The Decembrists are the forerunner of the State Emergency Committee.
          The heroes of the revolution would have won, as well as the gallows and convicts.
          I read about the sex entertainment of convicts-Decembrists in Siberia, a book, thank God XIX. Written in hot pursuit, when they themselves were alive.
          Nothing human or inhuman was alien to them. A woman in a barrel is worth something!
        3. +2
          9 February 2023 18: 01
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          This junta was an open secret for the authorities.

          Like the one that overthrew Paul. request
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          The younger son of A.N. Olenin, who was then a member of the State Council, was a member of the "Northern Society"

          I'll tell you more, there is a version that the Grand Dukes Nikolai and Mikhail also went to the meetings.
          And the agility with which the former comrades-in-arms began to knock on each other after the arrests is simply stunning.

          God bless him with just "knocking". Some, like Zavalishin, were stupidly slandered.
          However, he dealt with them)))
          1. +2
            9 February 2023 19: 15
            Like the one that overthrew Paul
            She herself was the power. And these snot chewed, in the spirit of the heroes of subsequent classics of Russian literature. Actually, they remind me of the literary circle of poets of the "Silver Age" - sheer decadence and narcissism. And you say "junta" ...
            1. +2
              9 February 2023 22: 32
              Actually, they remind me of the literary circle of poets of the "Silver Age" - sheer decadence and narcissism.
              Exactly. And the soldiers were taken out under the buckshot, "their honors." The poets of the Silver Age are nobler than them, if only because they did not let anyone down to be shot, but quietly indulged in cocaine and morphine.
            2. +2
              9 February 2023 22: 34
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              sheer decadence and narcissism

              Have degenerated request
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              And you say "junta" ...

              The mutiny can't end in success... then it's called something else! Yes
  12. +8
    9 February 2023 13: 08
    The Decembrists are essentially fucking golden youth ... but the rest of the "guardians" of the collapse of the state are much more dangerous ... especially with the center of leadership in London ... the years go by and the principles are similar
  13. +3
    9 February 2023 14: 48
    Ogarev is a pure idealist-liberalist and his projects should be treated accordingly.
    Everything for which he did not undertake in life, everything collapsed.
    I read, as a monograph, the history of the relationship between Ogarev, his wife, Nekrasov, his mistress Panaeva and Panaeva's husband, Herzen - who was awakened by the Decembrists.
    I didn’t check the facts and I won’t lay my head for it, but this whole story is in the spirit of liberalism, that of this time. Money!
    Ogarev parted with his wife amicably and promised her and paid her a decent pension, and she drove away to mourn in Paris.
    Nekrasov and Panaeva write letters to Ogarev's ex-wife, convincing them that they will "beat out" Ogarev much more, only they sent us a general power of attorney.
    Having received a power of attorney, they "knock out" 85000 rubles, ex. they write to his wife that everything is complicated, but sends her some crumbs.
    It seems that everything is covered, but the ex-wife dies and Ogarev, as the legitimate heir, receives from Paris, incl. and letters from Panaeva-Nekrasov. Scandal!
    I don't see a better theme for a series.
    A lot of things are revealed, incl. and 5000 rubles that Nekrasov borrowed from Herzen and seemed to have forgotten to return.
    Kidalovo with the return of debts.
    Title for the series "Who Lives Well in Rus'"
  14. +2
    9 February 2023 21: 53
    - "Gentlemen democrats of the past century, we would very much like to resurrect you all,
    What would you look at our successes, well, we managed to thank you ... "
  15. +1
    9 February 2023 22: 10
    Since the word "demos" is not all who were born, but free, any democracy is not "the power of the people", but only the power of the free from slavery. The ancient Greeks were not stupid. And they understood that at once the whole people could not be in power.
    And at all times we are talking about free from ancient slavery, from feudal, from capitalist.

    Which completely coincides with the ideas of Marxism, but does not coincide in any way with the ideas imposed by today's "democrats". And the "democrats" of the 19th century, such as the "liberators of someone out there" the oppressed.
    Only a mass movement of the very oppressed can liberate the oppressed.

    But even the Slavophile K. Aksakov wrote to Tsar Alex 2nd that in the mass of the Russian people there are no such movements and, in general, a "political element"!

    Therefore, in our country, everything is, as it were, "democrats" - this is a terrible mixture of maniacs and crooks. They either grow out of their own delirium or feed on foreign masters, because no movement within the country feeds or controls them.

    The conclusion is obvious. Turn off the light....
    1. +1
      9 February 2023 22: 44
      Quote: ivan2022
      Since the word "demos" is not all who were born, but free

      It's just free - ohlos.
      Demos is the modern middle class. The same people who could buy armor and fight in the ranks of the phalanx.
      1. +3
        10 February 2023 14: 09
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        It's just free - ohlos.

        Okhlos is the mob, the crowd, the okhlomo. And the free in ancient democracy, for example in Athens, is demos In ancient Greece, the term demos denoted free citizens (men) with civil rights, in contrast to slaves and other categories of the underprivileged population.
        1. +1
          11 February 2023 18: 10
          Quote: ort
          In ancient Greece, the term demos denoted free citizens (men) with civil rights.

          You forgot about the property qualification.
  16. +1
    17 February 2023 08: 21
    about the "obsolescence of autocracy." Something in modern petty Britain autocracy is still not outdated! Many do not know that since the time of Cromwell, power in England has belonged to people of a certain nationality who led this sadist to power, and then, as unnecessary, got rid of him. And the fact that there are 6500 Masonic societies in today's petty Britain, which are the lowest level of the pyramid of world Zionist power, clearly indicates with whom Russia has been fighting for hundreds of years!
    1. 0
      18 February 2023 11: 57
      The parliamentary monarchy of Britain is just as different from the autocratic monarchy in the Republic of Ingushetia as "merciful sovereign" is from "sovereign Emperor".

      But that's not the point ! Russian society in general, with all the authorities and legislation, continues to live under the Monarchy, as it did 400 years ago, when Tsar Mikhail Romanov was elected for life. Only tsars are called either general secretaries, or presidents, and boyars-ministers.

      The British, on the other hand, are a different people, preserving external traditions, they live in the 21st century exactly like people of the 21st century. Not the 17th...
      1. 0
        April 28 2023 20: 09
        Quote: ivan2022

        .

        The British, on the other hand, are a different people, preserving external traditions, they live in the 21st century exactly like people of the 21st century. Not the 17th...

        Are English traditions only external? Here England was the richest and most powerful empire until the middle of the 20th century. Now the question is: Where is the money, Zin? Where did all the British trillions go? After all, it is clear that the common people there live no better than the common people in the same France. But how much money the royal family has is not known for certain, but it is clear that it is very, very much. Now one more question: can a clan of hereditary billionaires influence politics? Or were they just there for beauty? I don't mention that England doesn't even have a constitution.