The Chronicles of Jean Froissart

130
The Chronicles of Jean Froissart
Have you ever thought, considering the miniatures from Froissart's Chronicles as a valuable historical source, how these miniatures look directly in the text? For example: The Battle of Sluys. Miniature from the "Chronicles" by Jean Froissart, XV century.


"... And they made a polished tablet, ... of pure gold, and inscribed letters on it,"
Exodus 39: 30

Documents stories. As already noted here, history as such ... does not exist. None of us witnessed the battle on Lake Peipus, and the burning of Moscow in 1812, and as for the living witnesses of the events of 1941-1945, there are fewer and fewer of them every year, and one can hardly rely on their memory. So what is there? And there are descriptions of events made by contemporaries. And these descriptions are very often subjective and do not reflect reality. But ... there are those descriptions that have become more widespread than others and, again, caused only positive responses from contemporaries of the events described. It is these writings that can be considered historical documents. This applies especially to medieval manuscripts, and here's why. In addition to the text itself, as a rule, they were supplied with many miniatures. The artists who painted them captured in them the life that surrounded them. Therefore, knowing the years of writing this or that manuscript, we can see with our own eyes sketches from the life of that time. Plus, these drawings are the finds of archaeologists and artifacts preserved in castles. And if images from miniatures and artifacts converge, then, at least in relation to material culture, everything is correct here.




And it looks like this, and the framing of the page is no less interesting from an artistic and cognitive point of view than the illustration itself

As for the information side of the content of certain manuscripts, here a lot depends on the authority of their author. And one of the most authoritative historians in the same France was considered none other than Jean Froissart, the author of his famous and outstanding Chronicles. What is known about him? What he wrote about himself in the text of his Chronicles. He was born in 1333 or 1337 in Valenciennes, and died around 1405, leaving behind entire volumes of "chronicles" - which became the most important source of information on the history of the initial period of the Hundred Years War. And it is obvious that even during his lifetime, the reliability of what he stated was recognized as very high, otherwise he would not have received the title "the singer of chivalry" and "the best of the medieval historians of France". However, he himself constantly emphasized that the motivation for writing the Chronicles was his desire to tell posterity about "glorious military deeds and exploits in France, England and neighboring countries". But his story was a kind of attempt to glorify what he himself considered worthy of this ... glorification, and he conveyed the events known to him not only as a chronicler, but also as an entertaining storyteller!


Page with miniature "Entry of Isabella of Bavaria into Paris"

About 80 accurately attributed manuscripts of Froissart's Chronicles have survived. Moreover, they are all illuminated, that is, they contain illustrations, since wealthy people ordered them from scribes for their own pleasure, and what pleasure can there be from just one text?! Today they are in such European libraries as the National Library of France (Paris), the Royal Library of Belgium (Brussels), the British Library (London). And there is also a copy in the Pierpont Morgan Museum and Library (New York), in the Vatican Apostolic Library, in the library of Leiden University and some other places. And over 15 of them are in Book I, nine in Book II, 30 in Book III, and 26 in Book IV. But the most famous of them, the manuscript was made in the first half of 1470 by craftsmen from Bruges, commissioned by the noble Fleming Ludwig Gruuthuse, a philanthropist and bibliophile who was keen on collecting books.


But this very small miniature is dedicated to a very interesting fact ...

What does this “Chronicle” look like, which is called the “Gruuthuse Manuscript”, which is today such an important historical source? These are four volumes with parchment pages and many fine illustrations. All of these volumes are today in the Bibliothèque nationale de France in Paris, where they are identified as Français 2643-2646.


... The execution of Hugh Despenser Jr., who was subjected to a shameful execution "on the stairs" - as a sodomy who seduced the king himself. His stomach was cut open, and the insides were torn out and burned before his eyes!

The manuscript consists of pages of 44 x 33 cm, with miniatures of various sizes inscribed in the text, from 3/4 of a page to full-page illustrations, of which there are 112 in all, along with vignettes and initials. The text in French is in two columns and is decorated with frames with intertwining plant stems and figures of people and animals between them.

The illustrator of the first two volumes was the artist Loise Liede, who created sixty miniatures for them. Prior to that, he worked on manuscripts commissioned by Philip III, Duke of Burgundy (Philip the Good), and for his court. Most likely, he had several assistants, but it’s hard to say what exactly they did, judging by the drawings.


Book 2. Richard II meets the rebels on June 13, 1381. Miniature from the "Chronicles" by Jean Froissart

For some reason, the last two volumes, with more subtle drawings, are by a number of anonymous illustrators, including "master Anthony of Burgundy","Master Margaret of York" and "masters of the Dresden Prayer Book". Their names remain unknown, and they themselves are so named in honor of either their outstanding works or famous patrons. You might think that in order to speed up the work, the project was divided in half between the performers from the very beginning, since both the texts and the style of the frames in volumes 1-2 and 3-4 differ from each other.

The works of the master Anthony of Burgundy differ sharply from the miniatures of the master of the Dresden Prayer Book both in the palette and the combination of colors, the arrangement of the figures and the composition. That is, it is quite obvious that two different groups of scribes and artists worked on these books.


The murder of Wat Tyler

Ludwig Gruuthuse (1427–1492) himself was born and subsequently lived in Bruges, where he was an important member of the royal court of Philip the Good. After Philip himself, he was the second most important buyer of illuminated manuscripts and did not spare money on them. His library consisted of about 190 volumes, mostly secular, and more than half of them were provided with illustrations. How large it was, says at least the fact that it was twice the size of the English Royal Collection. He probably began collecting books sometime in the late 1460s, when printed books already existed and Flemish illustration of secular works was in decline. By the way, Froissart's Chronicles were also printed in Paris after 1498.


Battle of Neville's Cross. Miniature from Froissart's Chronicles. XNUMXth century Looking at these miniatures, however, it should be remembered that the appearance of the men-at-arms depicted on them must be “shifted” a hundred years ago!

Interestingly, Gruuthuse has placed his portraits in several books, so we know his appearance. By the way, many of the books of his library then went to the King of France, Louis XII, and through him they subsequently ended up in the National Library of France. Some of the chronicles ended up in England, where they are in the British Library, so there are plenty of miniatures by which we can judge those times, as well as texts, by the way!

As noted above, the "Chronicles" of interest to us consist of 4 books. But for researchers, Book I, known from several editions, is of particular interest. There are three main editions: the Amiens Manuscript, the A/B Family Manuscript, and the Roman Manuscript. The Amiens Manuscript survives in only one copy, the work of an unknown scribe who copied it no later than 1491. The “Manuscript of the A / B family” has been preserved in several dozen (!) Lists at once, and all of them have not yet been systematized. The "Roman Manuscript" has survived to our time, also in just one list. In 1860, Kerwin de Lettenhove found it in the Vatican library and was the first to prepare a scientific edition of it. However, the exact time frame of these books is unknown, as they are not signed. Therefore, scientists are still arguing which of the editions of Book I was made earlier than the others. However, everyone agrees that it was made in the XIV century. We are talking about a difference of several decades, which in general is not so important.


And yet, all the illustrations from Froissart's four books are extremely informative, not to mention the fact that they are simply ... beautiful!

The "Chronicles" are interesting for us primarily because they tell in detail about the Hundred Years' War. Major battles and smaller battles are described, and even just small minor skirmishes. All of this is covered in the vast majority of chapters. Moreover, Flanders, which was the node of contradictions between England and France, occupies a special place in his narrative. It was Flanders that became one of the main causes of the Hundred Years War and played an important role in it. Moreover, Froissart describes in detail the policy of England and France in alliance with Flanders. So, in one of the chapters of "Book I" describes the alliance of Edward III with the inhabitants of Flanders. It is described how Edward III offered the Flemings "attack France and march through Touraine and the castellations of Lille and Douai". However, the inhabitants of Flanders refused, because they had an agreement with the Pope, according to which, having started a war against France, they would have to undergo a huge fine and excommunication. But then Froissart describes what cunning methods the Flemings resorted to in order to circumvent even such agreements. At the council of cities, it was decided that if Edward III wants to be the king of France, then let him first place the coat of arms of France on his heraldic shield and call himself the king of France in letters. That's when they will respect him for their king and will obey him. This is how they concluded an alliance with Edward, and avoided a fine!


Gaston Phoebe and Jean de Grailly suppress the uprising of the Jacques on the road to the city of Meaux. Miniature from the "Chronicles" by Jean Froissart

However, the author was attracted not only by political life and episodes of hostilities. Far from it. He describes the birth and death of royalty, peace negotiations, embassies from one country to another, the election of popes, solemn entries into the city and holidays - in a word, the whole life of the "upper echelons of power." But Froissart also writes about those below, in particular, popular movements and uprisings of certain cities do not escape his attention. And in general, quite a lot of chapters are devoted to the urban theme in his work, including descriptions of the uprisings of the cities of Flanders and unrest in Paris in 1383.

That is, this is a very interesting source in all respects, it’s only a pity that it was written for us, Russians, in a completely incomprehensible language, and to read them on our own, well, I don’t know who we can ...
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  1. 0
    7 February 2023 05: 48
    The text of this article was compiled by a cheap manipulator
    Beginning:
    "None of us witnessed the battle on Lake Peipsi, and the burning of Moscow in 1812, but as for living witnesses" (c)
    It seems like about Russia, and the proof is provided by the Chronicles of Jean Froissart.
    Like, he's not lying! Well, our official history should not raise questions.
    Only we do not have such chronicles to believe them so unconditionally.
    1. +6
      7 February 2023 06: 35
      Quote: ee2100
      Only we do not have such chronicles to believe them so unconditionally.

      Do you have a scientific study of 5000 texts of ancient chronicles that have come down to us, unconditionally proving this postulate? But it seems to me that you can trust the same Novgorod chronicles of the Senior and Junior versions. It says that there was a battle on Lake Peipus. And in the Livonian rhymed chronicle, too, it was. So they can be trusted unconditionally in this matter. Now, if the Chronicle wrote one thing, and Izvody another, then yes!
      1. +2
        7 February 2023 12: 56
        Everyone knows that our history is not history at all. Written either by the Germans, or by the Masons, the Romanovs rewrote everything, even the birch bark letters. There was no battle on the ice, this is a 100% fact, so Nevsky skated on the ice for the sake of appearance, the Battle of Kulikovo is also a big question, thank God at least there was a WWII, and even then, we ourselves almost attacked. But Western History is 146% known. True, no one can still understand who Joan of Arc is. And there are some problems with other heroes too...
        1. +2
          7 February 2023 13: 18
          Quote: Reader
          Everyone knows that our history is not history at all.

          And how many comrades are here who are ready to repeat everything that you wrote on completely serious cabbage soup and foam at the mouth to prove their case ...
          Yearning... recourse
      2. +8
        7 February 2023 18: 04
        The above picture in an article from Jean Froissart's Chronicle about the execution of Hugh Despenser Jr. is not entirely true.
        Chronicles that mention this execution, including Knighton, Jean de Bel, Annales Paulini, Brut and Cambridge, Trinity College (manuscript MS R.5.41) indicate that Hugo was not the only victim on the scaffold that day. His faithful fellow prisoner, Simon de Reed, was also sentenced to be hanged on the same stairs for allegedly insulting the queen. However, he was hanged a few steps below Despenser, since his crimes were considered the least and hung until he suffocated from fire smoke.
        1. +3
          7 February 2023 18: 14
          Dmitry!
          Where did you fall off
          Personally, I have asked many people about you.
          I'm glad that our thought shelf arrived!!!
          Health to you and your loved ones!
          From the heart!
          1. +6
            7 February 2023 18: 19
            Good day Sasha
            I set the house. I thought I could manage in six months - but how stretched
        2. +7
          7 February 2023 18: 16
          who was subjected to a shameful execution "on the stairs" - as a sodomy who seduced the king

          And to be completely accurate, all of the above chronicles indicate that Hugh Despenser Jr. and Simon de Reed were subjected to a shameful execution on charges of insulting royalty. Not a word about sodomy. Either the judges were embarrassed to announce this to the people, or it was attributed to the executed later
    2. +5
      7 February 2023 16: 10
      The text of this article was compiled by a cheap manipulator
      It seems like about Russia, and the proof is provided by the Chronicles of Jean Froissart.

      The author writes about the chronicles of Jean Froissart, what does Russia have to do with it? It is also the assertion that the contemporaries of the events are biased in someone's favor.
      1. +4
        7 February 2023 17: 12
        Good evening!
        Here you, Nick 7, fell, as probably others, into the bait of this manipulator.
        Read the beginning of the article carefully. The conversation begins about Rus' and as a summary, but no one has seen this, and many people question certain facts from history, but they have everything documented and sketched! Fact fact!
        This means that there is no point in questioning our offhistory.
        On the face of distortion of facts or concepts.
        For example. Are we building capitalism? No! We are building a market economy!
        Question to the audience - find at least one difference!?
        They have Chronicles and we have Chronicles. Everything seems to be correct, but we don’t have a single handwritten Chronicle older than the XNUMXth century, I mean genuine.
        I will not draw special parallels with Memoirs and Reflections, which were supplemented even after the death of the author.
        VOSH (Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky) is a fan of smearing his opponents with mud, accusing them of not reading something or not knowing.
        make excuses? It's like throwing beads.
        He is offended. Hope for life.
        PS if you have any doubts about my competence, read my articles published on this site drinks
  2. +9
    7 February 2023 06: 50
    it’s only a pity that it was written for us, Russians, in a completely incomprehensible language, and to read them on our own, well, I don’t know who among us can ...
    The first two books have been translated into Russian, the rest - into the main European languages, which will not constitute an obstacle for the inquisitive mind of an inquisitive person.
    1. +16
      7 February 2023 07: 14
      I don’t know, as for me, reading our chronicles without translation is still a pleasure. What the hell can you figure out without proper preparation or without a long practice of comparing with ready-made translations. I'm not talking about the chroniclers' handwriting, titles, punctuation and other delights.
      1. +10
        7 February 2023 08: 40
        Philip IV once asked Angerand d'Marigny what the papal legates were babbling about. "No" was the king's answer. This despite the fact that Angerand knew the "Vulgate".
      2. +12
        7 February 2023 09: 04
        What the hell can you figure out without proper preparation or without a long practice of comparing with ready-made translations. I'm not talking about the chroniclers' handwriting, titles, punctuation and other delights.

        Michael, it's true, it's true.
        And you also need to have Sreznevsky and the Old Russian multi-volume dictionary at hand and remember who translated there and how, this is a term. Which changed over time, depending on the structure of society.
        Plus - works that clarify the period of writing the annals and the alignment of protographs (source texts).
        So, what is there to talk about Latin or Old French texts.
        Around the Jordan "Act of the Getae" how many copies have the translators broken in three hundred years! YES. however, for each text such a situation.
        hi
        1. +12
          7 February 2023 09: 43
          Yes, without half a liter in the ancient texts you will understand horseradish. And with half a liter - what texts? .. smile
          1. +9
            7 February 2023 10: 55
            Yes, without half a liter in the ancient texts you will understand horseradish. And with half a liter - what texts? ..

            - Zinaida! Tell me something in old Slavonic!
            - Paki.
            - Packs-packs... Like cherubs! Your Excellency, have mercy!


          2. +9
            7 February 2023 16: 13
            After half a liter, just (I'm not afraid of this word) brilliant thoughts, ideas, interpretations come to my mind. If there is still time to think before I fall asleep. But here's the problem. In the morning I remember that I invented, understood or came up with something ingenious, but I don’t remember exactly what (((
      3. +10
        7 February 2023 10: 18
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        I'm not talking about the handwriting of chroniclers

        Dear colleague, I want to ask everything about handwriting ...
        It was you who wrote that birch-bark letters were written by several scribes for the whole of Novgorod?
        And I'm wondering how the handwriting was identified?
        It seems to me that writing on birch bark with a pen is not at all the same as writing with a pen / pen on paper. And the writing of letters will be closer to the printed type (with the amendment that there was no typography at that time, and, accordingly, a type for it).
        And as far as I know, criminologists do not consider texts written in such letters suitable for handwriting examination ...
        1. +18
          7 February 2023 11: 15
          It is very difficult to admit that the people in Veliky Novgorod were almost completely literate. As evidenced by the letters found.
          There is one letter, over the meaning of which specialists struggled (this is described in the literature) and in the end they realized that this was a cheat sheet before the exam.
          And if so, then there were schools where they passed the corresponding exams.
          And about several scribes for the whole of Novgorod - this is just someone's opinion.
          PS Read the texts of letters and draw your own conclusion.
          1. +8
            7 February 2023 11: 24
            Quote: ee2100
            the people in Veliky Novgorod were almost completely literate.

            This is, of course, a clear exaggeration.
            But I didn't ask about that.
            1. +10
              7 February 2023 12: 04
              I'd like to add:
              The handwriting of the scribes is, of course, impossible to determine. We are talking about the difficulty of reading, like with all of us, handwriting can be extremely difficult to read. But we're talking about cursive here.
              At first they wrote in a charter, then in a semi-charter, cursive arose with the advent of mass documentary material from the end of the XNUMXth century, when private and state office work appeared.

              About Novgorod birch bark letters. At the present stage, it can be clearly said that they, like letters from Vitebsk, Pskov and Smolensk, graffiti in Kyiv, speak of mass literacy, including women throughout Rus'.
              The specificity of the Novgorod soil contributes to the greater preservation of such material as birch bark, unlike other lands.
              1. +8
                7 February 2023 12: 15
                I'd like to add:
                The handwriting of the scribes is, of course, impossible to determine.

                Edward, hello! I read on Wikipedia that the first domestic famous scribe was called Ghoul Dashing. Lived in Novgorod in the 11th century.
                1. +6
                  7 February 2023 13: 46
                  Nicholas,
                  good day.
                  I don't know much about this scribe.
                  hi
                  1. +10
                    7 February 2023 14: 59
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    I don't know much about this scribe.

                    I don’t know, it’s my fault, sir, we didn’t serve together ...
                  2. +7
                    7 February 2023 17: 19
                    The existence of the Dashing Ghoul became known to Russian science thanks to the habit of scribes to preserve the postscripts of their predecessors in manuscripts. So did the scribes of the Slavic translation of "Explanatory Prophecies" - a collection of books of the Old Testament prophets with comments by Theodoret of Cyrus. Manuscripts of this book, dating from the 1047th-14th centuries, have survived to this day. However, their primary source was written in 19, during the reign of Prince Vladimir Yaroslavich in Novgorod. This is known from the entry made at the end of the book by Ghoul Lihim. He said that he began rewriting the book on May XNUMX and finished on December XNUMX.

                    “Az pop Opir Likhyi,” the scribe called himself
                2. +8
                  7 February 2023 15: 05
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  I read on Wikipedia that the first domestic famous scribe was called Ghoul Dashing. Lived in Novgorod in the 11th century.

                  It seems he was a Scandinavian, his name was Epirus, or something like that, which, by consonance, was transferred to the Ghoul, and Dashing - this seems to be a direct translation of his nickname, which is like the Bold. hi
                  1. +5
                    7 February 2023 17: 05
                    I know what his name was, Yozh z Bazhiny.)))))
                  2. +8
                    7 February 2023 17: 22
                    It is impossible to exclude the foreign origin of the name Ghoul. Slavist from Stockholm University Anders Sjöberg identified the Russian Ghoul Dashing with a certain master Epirus (Upir, Öpir), who was known in Uppland as a rune cutter. The inscriptions made by him on the stones, dated to the second half of the XNUMXth century, have been preserved. Both parts of the name of the Dashing Ghoul coincide with the nickname Öpir ofeigr, that is, Epirus the Unshy (literally, "shooter not doomed to death"). The word ofeigr also has a meaning associated with exceeding the measure (“superfluous”).

                    In the early era of Kievan Rus, its ties with Scandinavia were very close. The preacher Epirus could arrive in Novgorod in the retinue of Princess Ingigerda, the wife of Yaroslav the Wise, in 1019. For 28 years, the Swede had the opportunity to perfectly master not only spoken Russian, but also written Church Slavonic. The Russians, by the consonance of the name, called the foreigner Ghoul.

                    Sjöberg reconstructs the further fate of the scribe. In 1050, Ingigerda died, and four years after her, Prince Yaroslav died. In Sweden, conditions were more favorable for Epirus-Ghoul. Around 1060, King Stenkil, the son of Jarl Ragvald, who participated in the embassy to Rus', ascended the throne. So Epirus could return to Sweden, where, in his old age, he took up stone-cutting business. In support of this version, Schöber cites some features of the master's Swedish language and his awareness of the events in Novgorod. In addition, Greek-type crosses are depicted on the stones of Epirus, and its ornaments are similar to the drawings of capital letters in ancient Russian manuscripts.
              2. +6
                7 February 2023 15: 17
                At the present stage, it can be clearly said that they, like letters from Vitebsk, Pskov and Smolensk

                Plus Staraya Russa, they also found a lot of birch bark there.
            2. +9
              7 February 2023 13: 27
              Edward answered you as a historian very clearly:
              "it can be clearly said that they, like letters from Vitebsk, Pskov and Smolensk, graffiti in Kyiv, speak of mass literacy, including women throughout Rus'." (c)
              I wrote the word "practically"
              Thank you, Edward, for a clear position. drinks
            3. +7
              7 February 2023 18: 55
              the people in Veliky Novgorod were almost completely literate.
              This is, of course, a clear exaggeration.

              Of course, an exaggeration, because the exam was not there yet)))
              But seriously, the number of birch bark letters found is already more than a thousand, and in archeology it is already customary to sort them into:
              - student
              - shop
              - love messages
              - marriage proposals
              - housekeeping accounts
              - household correspondence
              -pharmaceutical
              - conspiracies
              Interesting: One of the longest birch bark letters is a letter from Anna, a resident of Novgorod, to her brother Klimyata, which was written at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. In it, she complained about her husband. He "kicked out and wanted to kill" Anna. In a letter, a resident of Novgorod asked to support her in a lawsuit. Anna even wrote a speech on birch bark, which Klimyata was supposed to make.
              Link: https://www.culture.ru/materials/255853/o-chem-pisali-na-bereste-uchenicheskie-tetradi-zagovory-i-lyubovnye-pisma
          2. +11
            7 February 2023 11: 27
            I beg your pardon, why
            it is difficult to admit that the people in Veliky Novgorod were almost completely literate.
            I don’t see anything difficult to recognize this fact, because it’s obvious
            confirm the findings.
        2. +9
          7 February 2023 13: 30
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          It was you who wrote that birch-bark letters were written by several scribes for the whole of Novgorod?

          As in that joke: not me, not all letters and not several scribes. smile
          Written by Yanin Valentin Lavrentievich.
          He wrote that he found several letters written by the same hand, but devoted to completely different issues and signed by different names. From this, he concluded that professional scribes existed in Novgorod, which means that not all were literate.
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          criminologists do not consider texts written in such letters suitable for handwriting examination ...

          They are considered if there are pronounced individual signs of strokes. Plus, a lot depends on the qualifications of the expert. Someone will give a conclusion on certain samples, someone will not dare.
          1. +6
            7 February 2023 14: 09
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            They are considered if there are pronounced individual signs of strokes. Plus, a lot depends on the qualifications of the expert.

            There is such a science - trasology, I don’t know if they were engaged in birch bark letters, but as an auxiliary historical discipline it is very useful. hi
            1. +4
              7 February 2023 16: 23
              Traceology is generally the science of traces in principle. It doesn't matter, traces on the lock from a master key, on a car from an accident, on a person's clothes or skin from a traumatic object, drops of blood on the floor or on the wall - all this is a forensic tracing. Handwriting examination is also a type of trace analysis, but with its own specifics, therefore handwriting examination is considered a separate type of examination.
              The general rule is that the higher a person's level of proficiency in written speech, the more pronounced are the individual features of his handwriting.
              1. +5
                7 February 2023 16: 32
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Traceology is generally the science of traces in principle.

                I know that in history it is now actively used as an auxiliary historical discipline: traces on bones, on metal, on stones - they can give quite a lot of useful information. hi
                1. +4
                  7 February 2023 17: 56
                  Yes, science is useful. I am glad that historians have recently increasingly attracted representatives of various natural sciences to their research. The picture is much larger and wider.
          2. +12
            7 February 2023 14: 51
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            As in that joke: not me, not all letters and not several scribes.

            - Is it true that Academician Ambraumyan won Volga in the sports lotto?
            - Is it true. Only not an academician, but a warehouse manager, not a Volga, but a Zhiguli, not in sports lotto, but in a seductive way, and did not win, but lost. fellow
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            From this, he concluded that professional scribes existed in Novgorod, which means that not all were literate.

            Such a profession, with some differences, still exists))) For money, applications to state institutions are filled out. tongue
            But I understand you.
            1. +11
              7 February 2023 17: 20
              Haven't heard this joke.
              Let me get banned.
              Solving a crossword puzzle, the husband asks his wife a question:
              - First man, four letters?
              Wife:
              - Kohl, like...
        3. 0
          7 February 2023 21: 26
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          It seems to me that writing on birch bark with a pen is not at all the same as writing with a pen / pen on paper. And the writing of letters will be closer to the printed type (with the amendment that there was no typography at that time, and, accordingly, a type for it).


          There were no fonts, but there were plenty of engravings. A chisel and a piece of wood closer to writing and birch bark. Literature about engravings, which appeared in significant quantities back in the XNUMXth century, suggests that even then they began to understand and accumulate knowledge, establish authorship - another thing is that collectors and art critics had their own methods, unlike forensic experts.
      4. +5
        7 February 2023 17: 51
        You know Mish!
        I read without preparation. I understood the meaning immediately, and the subtleties later.
        It was very difficult with lyrical digressions towards religion
        1. +5
          7 February 2023 18: 34
          Quote: ee2100
          Read without preparation

          For example, the Front Chronicle?
          Chronicle texts published in the XNUMXth century. in the modern Russian language of that time - and even then they are read with difficulty, at least for me. Sometimes I caught myself on the fact that I understood the text completely wrong, sometimes on the fact that I did not understand at all.
          For example, for me, such annalistic phrases as "excuse" and "spread out" were a complete surprise to me. From the point of view of the former me, it was unequivocally "to forgive" and "to start a war", it turned out - exactly the opposite. "Excuse" means "to accuse", that is, to cover with guilt, to bring an accusation, and "to break loose" means to stop hostilities, that is, the action is the opposite of the verb "to get involved", to start a war. There were other moments, but these are the ones that stick in my memory. I am still not very sure that I correctly understand the difference between "byashe walking" and "byahu walking" ... smile
          1. +4
            7 February 2023 19: 54
            The most accessible, in my opinion, is the testament (message) of Vladimir Monomakh.
            I remember how I "nibbled" a photocopy of the Tale of Bygone Years. After that, I sincerely respect Likhachev and Shakhmatov.
  3. +7
    7 February 2023 07: 14
    But Froissart also writes about those below
    This is where the author misleads readers. Froissart did not write about the third estate. And in general, he has no description of life. The very description of everyday life that makes people who lived centuries ago alive, and not effigies. But for this you need to read other manuscripts.
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. +4
      7 February 2023 10: 04
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Froissart did not write about the third estate.

      He wrote about the Jacquerie and the demands of the Jacques. Where are they? At the bottom!
  4. +9
    7 February 2023 07: 43
    Sadness wafted - in the light of recent events. The pearls of human culture have survived for many centuries, will they survive what is now.
    Good morning, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    Good morning friends!
    hi )))
    Looking for hope in the signs of the times. And I see how insignificant our methods of fixing events with new technical means are. Cuneiform has survived millennia, the Antikythera mechanism has not been completely unraveled - what will they know about us? And do they deserve...
    1. +4
      7 February 2023 08: 01
      The pearls of human culture have survived for many centuries, will they survive what is now.
      It is you, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, who do not know about the earthquake of 1348...
      1. +8
        7 February 2023 09: 35
        don't know about the earthquake of 1348...


        Why not? We talked about it here somehow. Gobi, a desert on the edge of the civilized world, fire flashed, snakes, frogs and other green reptiles flew into the air (or vice versa). And there was so much decomposed biological material that an "incomprehensible, but terrible disease" began that spread within the Golden Horde, and Khan Dzhanibek, unsuccessfully besieging the Genoese Kaffa, ordered to shoot from the onager not with stones, but with the bodies of the dead, then the plague throughout Europe, but ... But the plague does not destroy manuscripts! As well as replicas of that time, which are now artifacts, and quite ancient artifacts. Now there is something more terrible, one that leaves behind a desert and flakes of ash swirling in the air. Does not add optimism.
    2. +10
      7 February 2023 08: 33
      Quote: depressant
      how insignificant are our ways of fixing events with new technical means

      What a stupid idea. To carve the complete works of Pushkin on the Karelian rocks, Tolstoy on the Ural Ridge, and Sholokhov on the Putorana. I am now, if I am scoffing, which is just a little bit, sorry, Lyudmila Yakovlevna. feel
      The risk that the next generation of mankind will not be able to pass on to their descendants the full amount of knowledge about themselves, I consider it quite real, so at least something will be preserved on granite or basalt cliffs. After all, our descendants will definitely not have such authors, and if their work is lost, it will be lost forever, not even on a planetary, but on a universal scale. Sooner or later, those who came after us will figure out how to build jet planes and nuclear bombs again, but no one will write "Quiet Flows the Don" to them ...
      1. +8
        7 February 2023 08: 48
        but "Quiet Flows the Don" no one will write to them ...
        Will write. Every time has its own Thomas Melory.
        1. +11
          7 February 2023 09: 18
          Each vegetable has its own fruit! drinks
          And this is true.
          How to explain to a modern young man (Anna Karenina) that due to a change in sexual partner, the heroine throws herself under a train?
          What times - such and heroes.
          1. +16
            7 February 2023 09: 26
            Anna Karenina didn't throw herself under a train in real life. A little touched by the mind, forgotten by everyone, she survived all the wars and revolutions, and quietly lived out her life in a communal apartment not far from the Patriarchs.
            One day she bought oil and spilled it...
            1. +16
              7 February 2023 09: 52
              Here it is the connection of times!
              And I thought who she reminds me of drinks
          2. +7
            7 February 2023 09: 53
            Alexander... Anna Karenina is too subtle. But just paintings, sculptures, illustrated texts - such fragility! Right now, in one of the caves of Greece, there were sculptures of resting bulls - almost life-size and made as if they were sculpted by someone great in the Renaissance. Analysis by the time of creation is embarrassing, there were no Greeks then at all. There was a high culture, there were no Greeks, and what to do about it? People left, creations remained, and if it were not for the cave, which saved the sculptures from the barbaric influence of time, we would not have ascended in thought to that hoary antiquity, where people somehow lived in their own way, loved and aspired to the high.
            1. +7
              7 February 2023 13: 32
              So you signed up for alternatives !!!!!
              Yes, there is a lot of inexplicable inexplicable in the world


              Who wrote these books and for whom?
              Just do not invent a bike about poor eyesight laughing
              1. +9
                7 February 2023 15: 19
                So you signed up for alternatives !!!!!

                Yes, I've always been bipolar. wassat )))
                Each point of view carries a grain of inalienable truth.
              2. +9
                7 February 2023 17: 37
                In the photo, the so-called. "Superbook" (250kg).
                Published 1976 USA
          3. +10
            7 February 2023 10: 09
            Quote: ee2100
            How to explain to a modern young man (Anna Karenina) that due to a change in sexual partner, the heroine throws herself under a train?

            Take an interest in criminal statistics, similar suicides among young people and now - a wagon and a small cart to boot.
            Only the method has changed, instead of rails - a pack of barbiturates or a jump from a bridge.
        2. +14
          7 February 2023 09: 25
          Exactly what is yours, and unique. "Quiet Flows the Don", "War and Peace", "Eugene Onegin" no one else will write. Not in our time, not in the future, not on our planet, not on any other. The loss of any work of art is always final and irrevocable.
          And I don’t consider Thomas Melory a great writer.
          1. +14
            7 February 2023 09: 28
            . "Quiet Flows the Don", "War and Peace", "Eugene Onegin" no one else will write. Not in our time, not in the future, not on our planet, not on any other.
            Yes. I agree. Categorically.
          2. +8
            7 February 2023 10: 05
            Hello, Misha!
            When my wife's cross was about ten, I learned that he had not yet read the novel The Three Musketeers.
            I told him that I sincerely envy him, he still has so many interesting works to read.
            A couple of years ago, at a meeting, and he was 21-22 years old, when asked what he liked from Dumas, he honestly answered that he had not read anything.
            And he feels completely normal, if the fate is that he graduated from the French Lyceum.
            What has fallen is lost.
            And it makes no sense to sprinkle ashes on your head and talk about lost
            1. +8
              7 February 2023 10: 45
              Quote: ee2100
              When my wife's cross was about ten, I learned that he had not yet read the novel The Three Musketeers.

              Good afternoon, Alexander,
              I think the age of reading is also important here, for example, Dumas, it seems to me very good as a teenager: for example, I read The Three Musketeers as a teenager, but it didn’t happen with The Count of Montecristo and read it as an adult. And my attitude to these, in principle, the same level of holding, I have a fundamentally different: "Three Musketeers" - I love and can re-read, and "The Count of Montecristo" - "some kind of garbage." hi
              1. +6
                7 February 2023 11: 18
                Hello, Sergey!
                I asked him at the age of 10. Himself at this age or so read everything available to Dumas.
                1. +5
                  7 February 2023 11: 28
                  Quote: ee2100
                  Himself at this age or so read everything available to Dumas.

                  Me too, but The Count of Montecristo was out of range. hi
                  1. +6
                    7 February 2023 12: 14
                    Hi Sergey!
                    And I couldn’t read The Three Musketeers at all, I didn’t get it. Until in the 5th grade I read the story for the 6th and 7th grades, after which the Three Musketeers entered.
                    This, by the way, is about a wild idea to teach children from the 2nd grade.
                    1. +5
                      7 February 2023 12: 26
                      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                      And I couldn’t read The Three Musketeers at all, I didn’t get it. Until in the 5th grade I read the story for the 6th and 7th grades, after which the Three Musketeers entered.

                      Good afternoon, Edward!
                      I just "Three Musketeers" successfully entered at the age of 13, that's it, so the warmest feelings remained for them.
                      This, by the way, is about a wild idea to teach children from the 2nd grade.

                      Now my daughter is going through all this at school: something comes in, something doesn’t, for example, Lermontov - with a bang! went in, but "Dead Souls" - did not like it. hi
                      1. +6
                        7 February 2023 13: 51
                        Now my daughter is going through all this at school: something comes in, something doesn’t, for example, Lermontov - with a bang! went in, but "Dead Souls" - did not like it.

                        There are of course many factors, likes and dislikes.
                        What a teacher. + the connection between generations is broken, we are in the 19th century. was close, now for children, it's like some sort of Urartu.
                        There is no continuity in the country, why would it be taken at school or among children?
                        Hello daughters!
                        hi
                      2. +4
                        7 February 2023 14: 15
                        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                        the connection between generations is broken, we are in the 19th century. was close, now for children, it's like some sort of Urartu.

                        To some extent, this is normal, I remember Zadornov joked about schoolchildren who did not understand Pushkin's texts, something about exposure. Yes, and I, for example, often encountering agricultural terms that are so common in a peasant economy, often do not know what it actually is, you need to go online and look.
                        Hello daughters!
                        She knows what a rotary phone looks like and even how it worked! laughing
                      3. +5
                        7 February 2023 16: 34
                        Well, time is running out. Everything changes. And the perception and manner of presentation, too. Now everything is accelerating, and the volume of information being pumped too (especially with the advent of computers and the Internet). This must be taken into account. It is unlikely that even in the 19th century they massively read books written in the 16-17th century. And now the works that were heard and read in the same 18th century are not interesting. And the classics of the 19th, it seems to me, are also living out their last days, and in 50-70 years they will be forgotten about them ...
                    2. +5
                      7 February 2023 17: 41
                      Hello hi
                      In 1975, there was a queue for The Three Musketeers in the city library. Two classmates and I urgently signed up, waited for our turn - and a miracle received the entire trilogy at once. Played to whom what to read and then to exchange volumes. me as the luckiest laughing first went to "Viscount" Brazhelon ". and then" Twenty years later "
                      So it turns out I read the Musketeers backwards
                      1. +4
                        7 February 2023 17: 45
                        Quote: Richard
                        there was a queue in the city library

                        Oh yeah. I remember the queue in the library for popular books: you had to stand on it and when the queue approached you received a postcard that you can come for a book hi
            2. +7
              7 February 2023 13: 43
              Hi Sasha.
              There will always be a person who "read" and who "did not read". smile
              I have Dumas at home, and Jules Verne, and Conan Doyle, and much more, it's a long list. In childhood, the eldest son read, basically, all sorts of encyclopedias, such as "100 Great Naval Battles", the youngest - Strugatsky and Rowling. smile At the age of fourteen, both were cut off. Like clockwork. Since then, both read only what they write themselves and people like them are okhlomo in social networks ... But at least they write correctly, it’s already pleasing ...
              1. +6
                7 February 2023 14: 22
                I was scolded for long hair, flares, etc.
                And now I am making a warning to my son that he cuts his hair too short.
                What is it if 1/2 helix!?
                One plus is that he goes in for sports and reads, although he himself admitted that if a computer had entered his life a little earlier, it is not known how everything would have turned out drinks
          3. 0
            7 February 2023 15: 45
            Melori was one of the first, Sholokhov one of the last. It just changes the form of perception of information. The visual row replaces the text. This is neither bad nor good. This is a given.
            1. +3
              7 February 2023 16: 29
              Tosh!
              Show firmness. What International are you?
              1. +1
                7 February 2023 17: 08
                What International are you?
                Yes, I am an anarchist!
                1. +5
                  7 February 2023 17: 32
                  Anarchist, beat!
                  My friend's sister lives in the city of Kropotkin. I myself was surprised last year when he went there, not in the sense of going, but in the sense of the name of the city.
                  I thought that the damned Soviet authorities renamed it a long time ago. But no!
                  Anarchy is the mother of order!
                  Or is it the rear?
            2. +1
              7 February 2023 16: 40
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              Melori was one of the first, Sholokhov one of the last.

              Melory is a compiler. He collected the legends of the Arthurian cycle and wrote them down, linking them with a certain semblance of a single plot. With the same Boccaccio or Chaucer can not be compared.
              The authors I have listed are true artists of the word, who themselves created their own artistic reality, invented characters, plots and settings.
              Feel the difference, as they say. smile
          4. +3
            7 February 2023 16: 24
            Well, there is a theory that if you put one hundred million monkeys at typewriters, force you to constantly press the keys and give them unlimited time, then sooner or later, one of them will give out the full version of "War and Peace" ... )))
            Ps about the theory of probability (not "probability"))) in the know ...
            1. +4
              7 February 2023 19: 18
              It's true. It's 50%-50% guaranteed.
              Either give or not Yes
          5. +1
            7 February 2023 23: 38
            .The loss of any work of art is always final and irrevocable.
            Theoretically, information does not disappear anywhere, in the sense that it always remains. "a physical trace containing the complete picture". It remains to solve a purely "engineering" problem, how to extract it from the universe laughing
        3. +3
          7 February 2023 20: 14
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          but "Quiet Flows the Don" no one will write to them ...
          Will write. Every time has its own Thomas Melory.

          It all depends on the measure of vanity!!
          For example, one of the Demidovs secured eternal memory for himself with a "cross on a fighter" near the Chusovaya River.

          The guys from Salekhard said that in the 30s one of the prisoners carved a bas-relief of Stalin's portrait on a rock.
          However, to be serious, we have not gone far from our ancestors, who also “smeared” the rocks with “scribbles”.
      2. +13
        7 February 2023 10: 39
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        What a stupid idea. To carve the complete works of Pushkin on the Karelian rocks, Tolstoy on the Ural Ridge, and Sholokhov on the Putorana.

        It seems to me, Mikhail, that such attempts have already been made by mankind: laughing
        1. +8
          7 February 2023 10: 59
          It seems to me, Mikhail, that such attempts have already been made by mankind.

          Greetings, Sergey! As far as I understand, these are petroglyphs in the Andes? drinks
          1. +8
            7 February 2023 11: 04
            Quote: Pane Kohanku
            Greetings, Sergey! As far as I understand, these are petroglyphs in the Andes?

            Good afternoon Nikolai,
            Yes, in the Nazca desert, it seems to me that they wanted to record "War and Peace", only in their own words they told what happened - then it happened. laughing
            1. +5
              7 February 2023 11: 19
              No, this is not "War and Peace" this is a Russian fairy tale "Geese Swans"
            2. +9
              7 February 2023 11: 40
              Yes, in the Nazca desert, it seems to me that they wanted to record "War and Peace", only in their own words they told what happened - then it happened.

              In the Dominican Republic, not far from Higuey, there is a cave in which a petroglyph from the Taino, very similar to Cheburashka, has been preserved. Tour guides specially show it. I saw it personally. Yes
              1. +8
                7 February 2023 11: 52
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                Tour guides specially show it

                And they didn’t gouge him by chance? in pursuit of a long peso? laughing
                1. +6
                  7 February 2023 12: 17
                  And they didn’t gouge him by chance? in pursuit of a long peso?

                  Vague doubts also torment me ... what
                  1. +7
                    7 February 2023 19: 28
                    And they didn’t gouge him by chance?

                    Good evening Kolya hi
                    Congratulations on the authorship of the new meme - Fucking Cheburashka lol
                    1. +3
                      7 February 2023 22: 33
                      Congratulations on the authorship of the new meme - Fucking Cheburashka

                      Good morning, Comrade Colonel! drinks
                      No, please, I'm not the author of this meme. laughing Tse not me, tse - vovk! laughing
                2. +6
                  7 February 2023 16: 39
                  Long peso, this is in the picture where the man on the stairs is executed))). By the way, based on this picture, doubts arose about the veracity of these Chronicles))) I think they executed him, in fact, only out of envy, and not because he seduced the king ...)))
        2. +4
          7 February 2023 13: 44
          Quote: Mihaylov
          such attempts

          Yep, this is bullshit. I think this is Prishvin's story, maximum.
          1. +4
            7 February 2023 15: 38
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            I think this is Prishvin's story, maximum.

            Perhaps they were not enough for "War and Peace": they died out earlier .... wassat
            1. 0
              7 February 2023 15: 55
              My version is "Song of the Falcon".
              There, in the lower right corner, some kind of reptile...
              1. +1
                7 February 2023 16: 19
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                There, in the lower right corner, some kind of reptile...

                More like a syringe? laughing
                1. 0
                  7 February 2023 16: 32
                  It is in you that the coming antagonism to medicine speaks.))))
                  1. +4
                    7 February 2023 16: 42
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    It is in you that the coming antagonism to medicine speaks.)

                    I rushed between the chainsaw and the syringe, but it turns out to be a bit long for a chainsaw. hi
                    Although who knows what kind of chainsaws they had? laughing
                    It is interesting that the Rurikovichs also appeared there:

                    But on this occasion, Michael will explain everything to us ... drinks
              2. Fat
                +4
                7 February 2023 16: 26
                hi Greetings, Anton.
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                There, in the lower right corner, some kind of reptile...

                This is a hesotsan, no doubt, and the rest of the images are clearly the creations of Yilan biologists... laughing
                1. +4
                  7 February 2023 16: 39
                  Hello Borisych!
                  More like a transplant...
    3. +4
      7 February 2023 10: 05
      Quote: depressant
      what will they know about us?

      My photos are already being erased on many memory blocks!
      1. +6
        7 February 2023 10: 40
        So I'm talking about the same, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
        But there is also something else.
        Let's take the first picture. Battle of Sluys. Without understanding a word in the text, I will consider the picture. Let's see what the artist brought to the fore. And he focused the viewer's attention on the drowning knights and ordinary soldiers. The spectacle evokes different feelings, distracting from the battle on the ships - feelings! What did the artist appeal to? Gloat? Sympathy? Rather, the latter. This is evidenced by the hands of a drowning knight raised in prayer for help, clearly causing compassion. Does this not speak of the birth of the era of humanism already in those days?
        And further.
        As I said, without understanding the text, I will judge what is happening by the illustrations, and there are many of them. Does this not mean that the "Chronicles" were also intended to be viewed by representatives of neighboring peoples who do not know the language, like me. Isn't this the desire to unite Europe on the basis of art already in those days, even if it was unconscious? Or the desire to dominate their own culture? This is in addition to the task of giving the chronicles an elegant look and artistic value.
        In general, different thoughts arise.
        I have never heard that Russian chronicles were illustrated.
        1. Fat
          +13
          7 February 2023 11: 50
          hi Lyudmila Yakovlevna.
          The real pearl of world book culture is without a doubt the Personal Chronicle of Ivan the Terrible, compiled in the 9745th century and rightfully called the Tsar Book: 17830 sheets, 1567 miniatures. Covers history from the creation of the world to XNUMX. Currently, it is a ten-volume collection stored in the State Historical Museum (GIM, Moscow), the Russian National Library (RNL, St. Petersburg) and the Library of the Academy of Sciences (BAN, St. Petersburg). Contains Biblical history, the history of Troy, Alexandria, the Jewish war of Joseph Flavius, the history of Rome, Byzantium, Rus'. A book monument that has no analogues in the world in terms of its artistic value. This colossal monument was built over a period of more than ten years and, unfortunately, was never completed.




          https://zelomi.ru/blog/illustrirovannie
          1. +7
            7 February 2023 13: 06
            Thank you, Andrey Borisovich, for the inspiring information. I did not know about this work. And it's good that he is in St. Petersburg, and not in Moscow. The burnt-out Fundamental Library of the Russian Academy of Sciences is still bitterly remembered. A third of the INION book stock has been lost. I looked it up on the Web, and the hard-to-recover part of the fund amounted to 2,32 million copies of books (15,7% of the total fund). It's 2015!
            Has anyone been punished?
            They say that no one was able to save the book fund. A lot must have been stolen. And thanks to thefts, perhaps it will survive. Something wedges me today for sadness. Just cheer up, and it again. I watch an earthquake. Turkey turned out to be a poor country, a house of cards. This ancient fortress is a Roman foundation, the rest is a remake, and it crumbled. There were more than a thousand high-rise buildings.
      2. +3
        7 February 2023 16: 24
        By the way. Recently I found one interesting photo:

        This is the barbican of the city wall of Chartres. The photo was taken in 1920. Image courtesy of Reuters.
        1. +2
          7 February 2023 17: 26
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          This is the barbican of the city wall of Chartres.

          I love castles and castles. Interestingly, in the center above the entrance, a niche was laid with stones (apparently later) and, judging by the window, some kind of room was made there. hi
          1. 0
            12 February 2023 09: 56
            Nothing was laid there, it just looks like that due to these long recesses into which the beams of the drawbridge were removed.
  5. +5
    7 February 2023 08: 23
    First of all, Froissart cannot be regarded as a historian, he is a chronicler. And very tendentious.
    1. +6
      7 February 2023 08: 46
      The author, as a historian, is also so-so, but chroniclers are not different.
      1. +11
        7 February 2023 09: 20
        But the pictures are good. And a lot. And in another article today there are old photographs. And a lot. Thanks to the authors for this, for their efforts to find them.
    2. +5
      7 February 2023 10: 13
      he is a chronicler. And very tendentious.
      Of course, and pro-English.
      You take Froissart, Villani, le Baker, Cuvelier, compare - the result is something plausible.
      1. +5
        7 February 2023 12: 35
        Pro-English first half of life. Then he changed the sponsor, became pro-French.
      2. +2
        7 February 2023 13: 29
        Of course, and pro-English

        The question is moot. The French themselves did not support Froissart's accusations of "pro-Englishness", and for a very long time. It is enough to read Jean-Baptiste de La Curne de Sainte-Palaye of the XNUMXth century.
        1. +3
          7 February 2023 18: 13
          Quote: Ruyter-57
          The French themselves did not support Froissart's accusations of "pro-Englishness"

          Considering that Froissart's main audience was the aristocracy, which in France and England was practically indistinguishable and to a large extent even common, that is, they could change camp easily and without significant damage to their reputation, this is not surprising.
    3. +7
      7 February 2023 12: 29
      First of all, Froissart cannot be regarded as a historian, he is a chronicler. And very tendentious.

      I don’t remember who, perhaps Ainsworth (Peter F. Ainsworth) or Gronen (Godfried Croenen) read Froissart’s characterization that I liked very much: “he did not write history, but its version in full accordance with the views, prejudices and class interests of his aristocratic audience."
      1. +2
        7 February 2023 16: 12
        "He did not write history, but a version of it, in full accordance with the views, prejudices and class interests of his aristocratic audience."
        Exactly!!!
  6. +7
    7 February 2023 09: 53
    Here is the phrase
    Documents of history. As already noted here, history as such ... does not exist. None of us witnessed the battle on Lake Peipus, and the burning of Moscow in 1812, and as for the living witnesses of the events of 1941-1945, there are fewer and fewer of them every year, and one can hardly rely on their memory. So what is there? And there are descriptions of events made by contemporaries.
    Very crafty. This is how it was possible to put in one row an event that occurred (according to historians) in a non-documentary period of history (in a period when documents were either not compiled at all, or were, but for some reason none of them reached the time of historical materialism) and events that occurred during the documentary period of history? As for the period 1941-1945, the events of this period are not only documented, but also repeatedly recorded on film and photographic film.
    1. +4
      7 February 2023 11: 23
      Pay no attention. The author of the "durku turns on" the code writes about 5000 documents.
      He perfectly understands what he is doing, but he himself brings a mine under his reasoning. drinks
      1. +2
        7 February 2023 12: 16
        Quote: ee2100
        about 5000 documents.

        Read about PSRL on Wiki at least ... There are again dissertations. For example, doctoral Pautkina A.A. chronicles of the 11th-13th centuries and their content. You look into serious studies, they are useful and interesting to read. Although you need a skill ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
  7. +16
    7 February 2023 10: 59
    Quote: kalibr
    But it seems to me that you can trust the same Novgorod Chronicles of the Senior and Junior editions. It says that there was a battle on Lake Peipsi. And in the Livonian rhymed chronicle, too, it was. So they can be trusted unconditionally in this matter. Now, if the Chronicle wrote one thing, and Izvody another, then yes!
    The case is real, I was told by a friend of the protagonist.
    In Soviet times, in one of the regions east of the Urals, party conferences, which were held either once every two years, or once a year, usually had one member of the Central Committee of the CPSU, who either came from this region, or worked in this area at a young age. The time was, as they say, stagnant and therefore the agenda of these conferences did not change for years. Yes, and they were mostly all the same people. But it goes without saying that the editors of district, regional, and central newspapers sent their correspondents to such a party conference.
    But correspondents are also people of their own minds. So the correspondent of the main regional newspaper decided that instead of wiping his pants at this boring conference, he would spend time elsewhere with much more benefit for himself. Thought - done. But as a responsible person, he wrote a long editorial about this conference in advance. He spent the day well, and in the evening he appeared at the editorial office and, having tired thoughts about the past conference, handed over the pre-written article to the set. And went home. The next morning his article was in the newspaper. But in the afternoon, this correspondent, along with the editor-in-chief and curator of the newspaper along the line ... stood in front of the angry first secretary of the regional committee, who held the newspaper in his hands and yelled: "What is this" !!!???
    It turns out that for the first time in many years, for some reason, a member of the Central Committee did not come to this conference.
    And in the article he was listed as the main speaker, who "brought to the attention"; "set tasks" and so on. But at the moment of the greatest anger of the first secretary of the regional committee happened .... In short, into the office of the first secretary, in which the editor-in-chief of the newspaper and the correspondent were already starting to take off their pants in order to accept the anger of the first secretary in full, with the subsequent loss of the party card, either his assistant enters , or the deputy who brings the latest Moscow press. This press was delivered to regional committees and regional committees by regular planes. And respectfully presents the newspaper "Pravda" to the first secretary. At first, he does not understand anything, but either the assistant or the deputy pokes him into some article on the first page. And the first one sees that there is a note in Pravda dedicated to this conference in his area. And the note says that the conference I took part the same absent member of the Central Committee of the CPSU, who brought to the attention "; "set tasks" and so on. The first secretary begins to have a nervous tic. He takes the rest of the newspapers, but we must remember that often in the central newspapers of the times of the USSR, the first pages were almost identical, and reads in them about the conference in his area all the same that is written in Pravda.
    It goes without saying that the central party organ "Pravda" is much more sacred for the first secretary of the region than the most sacred cow for an orthodox Hindu, and he has no right to question what is written in it. Moreover, the note comes as an editorial. And he suddenly realizes that apparently for some unknown to him, but probably very important political reasons, in Moscow it was decided to show that that member of the Central Committee of the CPSU was at the conference. And that he, the first secretary of the regional committee, almost ruined his career himself by just demanding that the editor of his regional newspaper withdraw the entire circulation from sale, publish the correct article in the new circulation, and dismiss the correspondent with a wolf ticket.
    Everything turned out to be simple.
    The local staff correspondent of the Pravda newspaper also did not want to sit at this conference at all, and he acted in exactly the same way as the correspondent of the regional newspaper. And late in the evening, Pravda's staff correspondent simply went to the editorial office of the regional newspaper and took (had the right to) a trial print of the regional newspaper with an article about the past conference. And he sent the text of the article to Moscow by teletype as his report. Well, of course, by shortening it in some ways, lengthening it in some ways, decorating it somewhere, etc.
    Well, newspapers such as Komsomolskaya Pravda, Izvestia, and so on have already officially received galley proofs of an article about the party conference from the editors of Pravda. So it was established that other newspapers should not write any gag of their own, but adhere to the general line of the party, which is indicated by the newspaper Pravda.

    Just like that, something written in this or that Chronicle flowed into other chronicles.
    Moreover, all the chronicles were written much later, so to speak, "the fact of the event."
    Some chronicler liked what his colleague wrote - the chronicler takes the information, creatively rethinks it and places it in his chronicle.
    Writers did the same. Including writers on historical topics. For example, some medieval writer, of course, under the pseudonym of some "ancient" author, wrote a book in which he introduced several characters, well, let's say Antigonus, Hannibal or Caesar, then his fellow writers, after reading this book, pick up this topic and they are already independently developing the life lines of some of Antigone, some of Hannibal, some of Caesar, some of them all together or in pairs. Of course, that all the authors also write under the pseudonyms of "ancient". And after 100 years we already have about 10 books about Antigone, about 20 about Hannibal and about 30 about Caesar. And all are allegedly printed in the manuscripts of "antique authors". And in these books a lot of new "antique" characters have already been introduced.
    Each author made money on the most popular character presented to him.
    1. +5
      7 February 2023 18: 38
      As for the journalist, I will completely believe: this is how it was done and is being done. Journalists, they are sneaky people
  8. +9
    7 February 2023 13: 16
    The illustrator of the first two volumes was the artist Loise Liede...
    ... For some reason, the last two volumes, with more subtle drawings, belong to a number of anonymous illustrators, including "Master Anthony of Burgundy", "Master Margaret of York" and "Master Dresden Prayer Book"

    The casket opens easily. Loiset Llede was not just an artist, but the owner of a large workshop, moreover, not just an owner - he was patronized by the "powerful ones" for whom he worked. Accordingly, in order to fulfill the orders that came to him from the "sponsors", he could attract any members of the Guild of St. John the Theologian of Bruges, since the "sponsors" did not like to wait. And there were a lot of talented artists who remained anonymous and received "creative pseudonyms" from art critics of the future in Bruges at that time. To the "masters" named by the author may be added Maître du Hiéron, Maître aux mains volubiles, Maître de la Chronique d'Angleterre et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...
    1. +4
      7 February 2023 18: 11
      Good evening Michelle! )))
      I read your interesting comments during the day. However, it is known that the illustrator of the first two volumes of the "Chronicles" was the master Luaz Llede. It was an amazing era, almost like in ancient Greece. Each thing, especially the drawing, became the subject of unique creativity. Now it's not like that. But outstanding illustrators, although rare, come across.
      1. +1
        7 February 2023 23: 18
        Now it's not like that. But outstanding illustrators, although rare, come across.

        And today there are talented illustrators. For example, I like Jerry Pinkney.
        1. Fat
          +1
          8 February 2023 00: 40
          hi
          Quote: Ruyter-57
          And today there are talented illustrators.

          Go to https://illustrators.ru/ You can see that there are many talented illustrators. At one time, the works of Mikhail Ivanov made the greatest impression on me, since all his illustrations are "copyright objects" I will only give a link.
          https://illustrators.ru/illustrations/1369352?slider_order=position#illustration-anchor
          Sincerely.
  9. +4
    7 February 2023 18: 28
    "I seduced the king" and how did the king allow his lover to be tortured like that?
    1. +6
      7 February 2023 20: 14
      Glory hi
      Everything is simple here - right in the classics:
      Ah, it's not difficult to deceive me! ..
      I myself am glad to be deceived! (C)
      or in modern terms:
      I'm not guilty - he came himself (c) laughing
    2. +4
      7 February 2023 21: 58
      BDSM is what it is. And then the Marquis de Sade was inspired
  10. 0
    8 February 2023 17: 36
    Quote: kalibr
    For example, doctoral Pautkina A.A. chronicles of the 11th-13th centuries and their content. You look into serious studies, they are useful and interesting to read. Although you need a skill ...
    Really??? Done!!!! You quite calmly began to refer to amateurs who do not have a historical education !!!!
    A.A. spider doctor philology.
  11. +1
    12 February 2023 10: 05
    There, on the vignettes framing the texts, there are some mythical creatures, people on 4 legs, but in clothes, and even with a second face, I'm sorry, on the ass!.......... ....
    And some other people, either covered with wool (goblin? Bigfoot?), or in special costumes such as "camouflage" ................... ..

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