Military Review

"Varyag" in China. View from Ukraine

88
With 2020, Russia will have to catch up not only the US



The PLA Navy is consistently implementing a program to create aircraft carriers, transferring to September 25 this year fleet the first aircraft carrier “Liaoning” with tail number 16. The aircraft carrier was created on the basis of the Varyag heavy aircraft carrier cruiser (TAVKR), built at the Black Sea Shipbuilding Plant (ChSZ) in Ukrainian Nikolaev.

A well-known Ukrainian shipbuilder, the former head of the aircraft carrier design bureau in the department of CSY chief designer Valery Babich, expressed his opinion on the Chinese program for the construction of aircraft carriers.

- What impression did the news about the commissioning of the aircraft carrier "Liaoning" make on you?

- The ceremony of handing over the ship to the fleet and the first rise of the naval flag was attended by the Secretary General of the CPC Central Committee, Chairman of the People's Republic of China Hu Jintao, Premier of the State Council of the People's Republic of China Wen Jiabao and other party and state leaders of the country. This once again underlines the importance of the ongoing program of creating aircraft carriers and shows the importance attached to this ship by the military-political leadership of the PRC. In the US, aircraft carriers are also transferred to the fleet in the presence of the president. But during the transfer of our aircraft carriers to the USSR Navy, leaders of this level were never present.

- Is the Chinese "Liaoning" a full-fledged aircraft carrier?

- Currently, it is a training ship, the presence of which will help prepare pilots deck aviation and aircraft maintenance specialists, as well as to teach designers and shipbuilders of the national industry a lot.

But this is not just a training ship, but an unprecedented full-scale polygon that could only be built by such a rich and far-reaching country like China. The tasks necessary for the creation of the following aircraft carriers will be set and tested there. We will see how quickly and qualitatively the Celestial Empire will increase its carrier fleet. And our “Variag” will help her in this, which neither Ukraine nor Russia needed, and who acquired China for 20 million dollars with such benefits.

In addition, in the People's Republic of China, a ground testing ground for testing naval aviation and training pilots of the NITKA type (ground testing and training aviation complex) in the Crimea was built. In fact, the name of the documentation was NIUTK - a ground test and training complex, which they soon soon began to be called simply “THREAD” for convenience, since all its components — the catapults and the landing blocks — were stretched out to the sea. NIUTK never called in use.

Creating your aircraft carrier cost China much cheaper compared to the cost of building such ships in the United States. The cost of the last US aircraft carrier "George W. Bush" reached 6,2 billion dollars, and the American aircraft carrier of the new generation "Gerald R. Ford", whose delivery to the US Navy is scheduled for 2015 year, is estimated at 8,1 billion, not counting 2,4 billion for research and development work (R & D) in the design. At the same time, the cost of "Varyag" in the case of its completion would be at current prices of the order of 3,5 billion dollars.

Time has shown that, despite all the difficulties with which Varyag was bought and then delivered, the game was worth the candle. The Chinese are good businessmen. When now we hear surprised cries: why did the Chinese suddenly launch our aircraft carrier, I can say the following: “Yes, because they turned out to be much smarter.”

- How was this aircraft carrier commissioned?

- In August, 2011, the ship went out for a week to the test. The Chinese military reported that the exit goal is to check the main power plant (GEM). Then in December 2011, and in 2012, several more sea exits were made. Initially it was supposed to adopt a ship at the end of 2012, but life made adjustments. The adoption of the aircraft carrier took place on 25 September 2012, against the background of the aggravation of the territorial dispute between Beijing and Tokyo over Senkaku Islands (the Chinese name is Diaoyudao), which Japan and China consider to be theirs. Perhaps the early transfer of the aircraft carrier to the naval forces is a political decision related to this conflict. In addition, the aircraft carrier was put into operation on the eve of the main national holiday of China - the anniversary of the founding of the PRC, which is celebrated on October 1.

For the final commissioning of the Chinese aircraft carrier Liaonin, it will be necessary to carry out full-fledged tests, including the GEM at full speed, which is about 30 units with a total capacity of four 200 turbines of thousands of horsepower. The aircraft carrier must go at full speed for at least three days, and this is a very difficult task. We have been strictly watched by the military representatives. At any stop of the ship, everything had to start over.

In the USSR, the factory running and state tests of such ships, together with the subsequent revision of the mechanisms, the final painting and the control exit to the sea, took one year. The same goes to China. I think the Chinese soberly assess the situation, since messages come from the Celestial Department of the Middle Kingdom that it will take another three years to bring the aircraft into full combat readiness. It is not excluded that Liaonin will eventually be put into operation as a full-fledged aircraft carrier. There are no technical obstacles to this.

The Celestial Empire plans to create up to four carrier-based strike groups (AUG) before 2020, each of which should be headed by one attack aircraft carrier. The escort fleet for AUG is already under construction.

- What difficulties did China face when commissioning an aircraft carrier?

- Greater complexity is the commissioning of the GEM and the main steam system, whose pipelines operate under enormous pressure 64 kg / cm2 at a temperature 470 degrees Celsius. It is known that on our ships the weak link was the boilers. This is the heart of the ship, just like atomic reactors on American aircraft carriers. The KVG-4 boilers, which produce 115 tons of steam of high parameters per hour, are unique in their characteristics units, but at the same time very difficult to maintain, requiring constant supervision of the automation. Sailors hardly coped with it. After leaving the factory team ship, there were cases of complete termination of the ship’s turn. The Chinese knew it. While “Varyag” was in Dalian, they removed one boiler and took it to the plant in Harbin, where they carefully studied and conducted comprehensive tests. It is likely that they brought the boilers to the desired condition and improved the automation. However, the tests and further operation of the aircraft carrier will show it. The Russians still have not been able to do this, as evidenced by the breakdown of the tests of the Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya, which is being re-equipped at Sevmash in Sevmash from our fourth TAVKR Admiral Gorshkov. According to reports from Russia, on this ship, during the development of a full-speed aircraft carrier, seven out of eight boilers failed.


The greatest difficulty for Chinese shipbuilders is the commissioning of the aircraft technical complex of the ship, which includes aerofinisers, an optical landing system, a radio engineering flight control system, an aviation fueling system, an aircraft power supply system and helicopters, aircraft lifts, gas shut-off panels, restraint devices aircraft before the start when the engine goes to full speed. It is necessary to install equipment and systems for routine maintenance of aircraft and much more. The most important on such a ship, where a large amount of flammable aviation fuel is stored, are fire-fighting systems. It is also necessary to ensure the safe storage of the ammunition and its quick delivery to the flight deck from the depth of the aviation cellars. After solving these problems, China will come close to creating its own carrier fleet.

- What should be the aircraft armament of this ship?

- “Varyag” was created for basing Su-27K (Su-33), MiG-29K and supersonic multi-purpose vertical / short take-off and landing Yak-141 fighter on it. When the ship was built in 1985 – 1991, the Su-27K and MiG-29K outperformed the US Navy F-14D Tomcat and F / A-18C Hornet fighters in their tactical and technical elements. And the Yak-141 generally overtook an American short-takeoff and vertical-landing F-35B aircraft for at least 20 years. The Yak-141 made the first landings on the Admiral Gorshkov TAKR in 1991, and the same F-35B aircraft in the USA still cannot be put into service. In addition, the Yak-44 РЛДН radar patrol and guidance aircraft and the whole Kamov helicopter family - the anti-submarine Ka-27, amphibious Ka-29, rescue Ka-27PS and the radar patrol Ka-31 РЛД were to be located on the ship. A total of 52 aircraft should be based on the ship.

- Why are there only Su-33 fighters left on Admiral Kuznetsov?

- Su-27K, received after adopting the designation Su-33, and MiG-29K - different planes in their capabilities. The first is in the air twice as long and takes more ammunition than the MiG-29K. But it is also more expensive in 2,5 times. On the other hand, the MiG-29K aircraft is one and a half times smaller in size, which means that they can be placed on the ship more. In addition, the MiG-29K was more maneuverable in combat and had an excellent electronic weapons control system not only for air-to-air missiles, but also for air-to-surface missiles, that is, it could be used as an attack aircraft for destroying ships and ground targets. Both planes are good. Therefore, it was planned to deploy three types of fighters on Varyag - Su-27K and MiG-29K, complementary to each other, as well as the Yak-141 fighter. The construction of MiG-29K and Yak-141 was stopped due to the suspension of funding during the collapse of the Soviet Union. Now the MiG-29K fighter has been revived for the Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya. Of course, the Yak-141 will also be in demand in the event of a revival of the Russian aircraft carrier fleet, in particular, it could be used in the near future on Mistral-type helicopter carriers.

- Will China be able to provide its new aircraft carrier with aircraft?

- On the basis of the Su-27 aircraft, a carrier-based fighter is currently being created, which will meet the latest requirements. In the 90 of the 20th century, China bought a batch of Su-27 land fighters in Russia and a license to manufacture them. Production of Su-27 aircraft (Chinese designation J-11) is organized at an aircraft factory near Harbin. I saw J-11B at an exhibition in Harbin in 2006, and it made a strong impression on me. I never thought that the People's Republic of China in a short time would be able to create and master the production of its own version of one of our best fighters. Now, on the basis of this aircraft, China is creating a carrier-based fighter J-15, which in its performance characteristics will resemble the Russian fighter Su-27K, and maybe even surpass it. After all, more than 27 years have passed since the creation of the Su-20K, and the technology is not worth it. It should be noted that Ukraine helped the Celestial Empire by selling an experienced prototype of the Su-27K Soviet-era aircraft to it, which was located in the Crimea at the test site with the NITKA complex. Aircraft J-15 and will form the basis of the aviation wing of the aircraft carrier "Liaoning" and two subsequent ships that are being built now. The second and third aircraft carriers, similar to our Admiral Kuznetsov and Varyag, are scheduled to be handed over to the Navy in 2015 and 2017. The Chinese Z-8 AEW long-range radar patrol helicopter will also be based on these ships.

To make a full-fledged aircraft carrier, an aircraft of the radar patrol and targeting type of our Yak-44 XRDN or American E-2C / D Hawkai must be designed and built to control ship aviation and target it. This is the most difficult task for a ship that does not have a catapult, because this aircraft is quite heavy. We at one time did not decide it.

- What are the differences between the fifth Nikolaev aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, which is now part of the Northern Fleet of Russia, and the sixth, the Varyag?

- The aircraft carriers Admiral Kuznetsov and Varyag were built according to the same project - 11435, but at the last they decided to replace the Mars-Passat and Fregat-MA radar for the new radar system Forum. At the same time, it was decided to install a new TK-146 electronic warfare complex - Constellation-BR instead of the analogous Cantata-11435 complex installed at Admiral Kuznetsov. Replacing these two large electronic systems led to a change in the configuration of the ship's superstructure and a complete overhaul of more than 140 premises. This work until the end of 1991 year CSY managed to perform. Therefore, "Admiral Kuznetsov" and "Varyag" have some architectural differences.

- When was the construction of “Varyag” stopped?

- The construction of Varyag was stopped at the beginning of 1992 of the year when 67,7 percent was ready, and the readiness of the aviation complex was about 80. The aviation lifts and elevators of the aviation ammunition were already working on the temporary power supply, aerofinisers, the aviation fuel system, the aircraft and helicopter transportation system in the hangar were mounted. The installation of the machine-boiler rooms was completed on the ship, and the state of the energy compartments made it possible to take electrical power, begin to turn the mechanisms and conduct mooring tests. Delivery of the Navy ship was planned in 1993 year. However, at the beginning of 1992, funding for construction from the Russian Navy was discontinued. The ship was towed to a new quay wall, which was specially built for the seventh aircraft carrier, the nuclear Ulyanovsk, set up security, and it remained there for many years, awaiting its fate. A lot of buyers came, but China turned out to be the most persistent, and sold “Varyag” to it. The sale of such a ship is a very complicated process, since it is a military product and at that time the ship contained a lot of secret information. It was necessary to convince the government of Ukraine, as well as Russia, that all secret equipment would be removed from the ship before the sale.

- what is история sales of "Varyag"?

- This is a separate big topic, almost a detective story. Ivan Iosifovich Vinnik, in the past the main builder of aircraft carriers, knows her best, and when Varyag was sold he was deputy general director of CSY. He received the Chinese delegations, and then repeatedly flew to the “Varyag” in Dalian. The cost of an aircraft carrier like scrap at world prices was about five million dollars. China paid, as I said, 20 million and won the tender. However, at that time it was clear that the ship was not being bought as scrap metal or a casino, but as a future aircraft carrier.

- What part did the Black Sea Plant take in restoring the ship?

- “Varyag” arrived in Dalian 3 March 2002, with three CSY representatives on board, who accompanied the ship for the entire period of towing. For three years no work was carried out on the ship. There was a thorough study of its design and pre-production. In April-May, the 2005-th ship was docked in dry dock, confirming the excellent condition of the hull steel. This was facilitated by the quality paintwork of the underwater part and the measures taken at the Black Sea plant to prevent electrochemical corrosion of the hull. During docking, the outer board was cleaned and painted according to the full scheme used in the Chinese Navy. All bottom and adjacent to the sides of the tank cleaned and grounded. Painted superstructure and upper deck. The paintwork of drinking water cisterns made at ChSZ turned out to be of such high quality that no additional work was required to restore it. Despite the fact that 1991 years passed since the end of work on the ship in 15, most of the interior had the appearance that they had just been primed, and there was no need for a new painting. Dock repair done thoroughly and quickly. The work was done around the clock, all the brigades had radio control, and the organization of their actions in the vast sub-spaces was impeccable.

The “killing” carried out in October 2005 of the year showed that the most important characteristic for the ship - stability is normal. The Chinese have demonstrated that they can cope with the most complex warship, which is an aircraft carrier. A small group of six representatives of the Black Sea plant participated in the docking. Then the access to Ukrainian specialists to Varyag was closed and they did not appear there after 2005. All work Celestial performed independently. The ship is a military object, and the PRC keeps its secrets just as we did in the Soviet Union.

- Do you regret that you could not finish the construction of this ship?

- Of course, we regret that we did not complete the construction of the Varyag. But in general, it is good that the aircraft carrier is not cut, as happened with Ulyanovsk. In China, there are three of our aircraft carriers - "Kiev", "Minsk" and "Varyag", and I am pleased that they are not scrapped, but demonstrate the achievements of our shipbuilding during its greatest heyday.

- What features have aircraft carriers "Admiral Kuznetsov" and "Varyag" compared to the US?

- US aircraft carriers - ships of a higher class and have a more powerful aviation group, numbering up to 80 aircraft. In addition, they have a nuclear power plant, which provides them with virtually unlimited navigation area. At Kuznetsov and Varyag, the Granit cruise anti-ship missile (ASM) complex was installed, capable of hitting targets over a distance of 500 kilometers at a speed of M = 2,5, that is, more than 3000 kilometers per hour. In the 90s, it was formidable weapon and the Americans were afraid of him, but in general, the placement of missile weapons on our aircraft carriers reduced their capabilities as aircraft carriers. There were no catapults on our aircraft carriers for taking off aircraft, and this also limited their capabilities. Catapults were to be installed on the seventh aircraft carrier - the atomic "Ulyanovsk".

- What difficulties did CSY encounter in the construction of Ulyanovsk?

- We went in the creation of aircraft carriers in our own way, and our oversaturated heavy armament cruisers, of course, were a threat to a potential enemy and were the subject of serious analysis by the military experts of the NATO countries. We had only one step to make these ships atomic. Everything else was enough for them.

The total power of the four-nuclear power plant on the Ulyanovsk 280 has thousands of horsepower (4х70 thousand) - more than on American nuclear aircraft carriers of the Nimitz type, which have a power of nuclear GEM of 260 thousand horsepower. In 1990 – 1991, ChSZ received from Russian enterprises a reactor vessel, steam generator, pipe systems, pumps, filters, and proceeded to the installation of a nuclear steam generating plant. One unit had time to weld, the second assembled and prepared for welding. The ease with which the work on the “Ulyanovsk” at the Black Sea Plant was proceeding indicates that we were ready to create this type of ships much earlier. At the time of the termination of construction, the almost finished Ulyanovsk building with the main mechanisms stood on the zero stocks. With the creation of this ship, we went to the level reached by American shipbuilders.

Varyag was to be transferred to the fleet in the 1993 year, and the next - the nuclear aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk - in the 1996. The Black Sea Plant was preparing to cut metal for the second nuclear aircraft carrier of the 11437 project (order 108, still no name), which should have been laid right after the descent of Ulyanovsk in 1992. Thus, if the planned plans for the construction of aircraft carriers with the periodicity of handing over the fleet of one ship every three years were fulfilled, then the 2010-s could have been built and transferred to the Navy TAKR Varyag and five atomic aircraft carriers of the Ulyanovsk type. And three more would be in construction.

The social and economic cataclysms that occurred during the perestroika period destroyed these plans. If you ever have to start over again, then you will need to spend a lot of effort, money and time to achieve the technical and intellectual milestone on which we already were. Specialists from leading countries of the world include the design and construction of nuclear aircraft carriers to the category of unique technologies, and by the end of the 80 of the XX century we already owned such technologies.

- What do you think, what aircraft carriers will build Russia in the future?

- Russia is going to resume construction of aircraft carriers with 2020 year. They will catch up again, but now China too. The Russian press reports that the new aircraft carrier will be similar in size to the current Admiral Kuznetsov, but, of course, made at a higher level. One of our largest design bureaus, the Nevskoye PKB in Leningrad, which worked in continuous and strong bond with ChSZ in Nikolaev for 70 years, was engaged in designing ships of this class. All 20 years since the termination of the construction of aircraft-carrying ships NPKB continued their design and improvement. I think that the new Russian aircraft carrier will be built on the technical level of the best ships of the 21st century.

- What can be said about the future of Ukrainian shipbuilding?

- The state of the industry is most directly dependent on cooperation with Russia. Southern shipyards have always played a big role in the creation of the Navy of Tsarist Russia, and then of the Soviet Union. During Soviet times, Ukraine produced about 40 percent of ships for the Navy, not counting, of course, nuclear submarines, whose production was concentrated in Russia.

In my opinion, Russia now does not have enough production capacity to revive its navy, while in Ukraine there are seven large shipyards. ChSZ in Nikolaev - the builder of battleships, cruisers, submarines and aircraft carriers - the largest of them.

Nicholas shipyards have a huge technical potential, and they are trained for them here, in one of our best educational institutions - the National University of Shipbuilding named after Admiral Makarov, who from 1930 to 1994 was known as the legendary Nikolaev Shipbuilding Institute. Nikolaev shipyards historically and technologically formed to create ships, saturated with sophisticated military equipment. It is in this direction that they can best express themselves in the future. I think that the future of our shipbuilding is in close cooperation with Russia.
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  1. in reserve
    in reserve 14 November 2012 12: 03 New
    +2
    - Greater complexity is the commissioning of the GEM and the main steam system, whose pipelines operate under enormous pressure 64 kg / cm2 at a temperature 470 degrees Celsius. It is known that on our ships the weak link was the boilers. This is the heart of the ship, just like atomic reactors on American aircraft carriers. The KVG-4 boilers, which produce 115 tons of steam of high parameters per hour, are unique in their characteristics units, but at the same time very difficult to maintain, requiring constant supervision of the automation. Sailors hardly coped with it. After leaving the factory team ship, there were cases of complete termination of the ship’s turn. The Chinese knew it. While “Varyag” was in Dalian, they removed one boiler and took it to the plant in Harbin, where they carefully studied and conducted comprehensive tests. It is likely that they brought the boilers to the desired condition and improved the automation. However, the tests and further operation of the aircraft carrier will show it. The Russians still have not been able to do this, as evidenced by the breakdown of the tests of the Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya, which is being re-equipped at Sevmash in Sevmash from our fourth TAVKR Admiral Gorshkov. According to reports from Russia, on this ship, during the development of a full-speed aircraft carrier, seven out of eight boilers failed.


    Wikramadity has completely different boilers and the breakdown is not the fault of Russia.
    1. in reserve
      in reserve 14 November 2012 14: 21 New
      0
      September 17, 2012 during sea trials at the aircraft carrier failed power plant [11]. When trying to achieve a full speed speed of 29 knots at a speed of 23 knots [12], according to one source, three boilers failed, according to other sources, seven out of eight steam boilers of the cruiser power plant [13]. The cause of the accident, according to the Kommersant newspaper, citing a source in Rosoboronexport, was the destruction of the thermal insulation layer of the boilers. At the design stage, the Indian customer asked to replace asbestos insulation hazardous to the crew’s health. Developer - The Special Design Bureau of Boiler Building (SKBK) replaced asbestos with refractory masonry of fireclay bricks of Chinese origin [14]. “When, after the accident, the specialists reached the power plant, it became clear that the brickwork around the boilers simply crumbled, unable to withstand the temperature,” an unnamed source told the publication. [15] However, China has denied Russia's supply of bricks for boilers of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier [16].

      In addition, a number of mechanisms failed on the vessel, including, according to the president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (OSK) Andrei Dyachkov “... delivered by NATO countries ... three refrigeration machines, nitrogen generators and a whole range of equipment”


      Disruption is still not the fault of Russia.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 14 November 2012 16: 47 New
        +8
        Once, when I was a student, I worked part time at a construction site with one brigade of semi-professionals (firefighters), and we had an order - in a multi-story building, replace old beams and ceilings on the ceiling with others. So, the customer drove the dog and timber, which was not at all suitable for this business, and although the customer was warned about this, he still continued to insist on working with this material. As a result, our team leader refused to replace the burs and tees with these copies and stole the team. The building stood without a ceiling for another year and a half (apparently no one agreed to put this material). So here I am, the foreman was completely right, it doesn’t matter what the customer wants there, if this does not work correctly, all responsibility will fall on the contractor. Did you do And since he knew that he would not work normally, why did he take up work? Did you want to cut the dough? Well done, he cut down, his reputation was tarnished, and if people died, he would have sat down, and no matter what he wanted and the customer requested.
        1. mike_z
          mike_z 14 November 2012 20: 46 New
          +1
          Quote: Mikado
          no matter what the customer wants there, if this does not work correctly, all responsibility will fall on the contractor.

          This is true! I have written about this more than once. We were accused of poor-quality manufacture of boilers at the Gorshkov. But the Indians themselves wanted without asbestos! Yes, they wanted to, but it was necessary either to act like your team leader or to shout to the whole world that the customer who insisted was to blame, and we only couldn’t refuse, well, and even taking up the tug wasn’t managed to find alternative technology. Anyway, 50/50 of the wine is obtained. But not 100%!
      2. petro
        petro 15 November 2012 02: 24 New
        0
        So they already convinced everyone-China is to blame, the bricks are not the same. The truth is, why no one told India that bricks can’t be used, they will crumble. The truth is, you can still start a fool-what they decided at the expense of India, to believe-is it possible to use bricks instead of asbestos. - You can’t, well, Indians and stupid ones. And the most interesting thing is that people, even in reserve, do it. Well, what is asbestos, brick, and this is not the first case, everything is just “raw” boilers.
    2. Civil
      Civil 14 November 2012 14: 42 New
      -2
      which neither Ukraine nor Russia needed, and which with such benefit for itself acquired China for $ 20 million.


      we needed, but Ukraine only offered to buy it back ... and then in spite it sold to China

      - In August 2011, the ship went for a week to test. The Chinese military said the goal of the exit was to test the main power plant (GEM). Then, in December 2011 and in 2012, several more trips to the sea were made. Initially, it was supposed to take the ship into service at the end of 2012, but life made adjustments.


      and all that you know, comrade from Ukraine, therefore seriously participated

      Of course, the Yak-141 will be in demand in the event of the revival of the Russian carrier fleet


      it was sold with documentation in the USA

      I think that the future of our shipbuilding is in close cooperation with Russia.


      no thanks, do without you
      1. aleksandr1959
        aleksandr1959 14 November 2012 15: 49 New
        +10
        - "No, thanks, we can do without you" - I just want to answer: "Baba s cart ..." Only the trouble is that we are "Siamese twins." Or . or rather two moron brothers. Bred us and sundry ...
  2. traveler
    traveler 14 November 2012 12: 04 New
    -2
    Good interview, many questions are clarified. It's a shame that we are arming a potential adversary and giving him technology, but here the economic issue is, he doesn’t want to buy. Russia is being sold to the one who pays.
    China's new drone revealed
    At the ninth aviation and space salon in Zhuhai, China introduced a new strike drone, Ilun-1 (Pterodactyl).


    In terms of size, this device is similar to the American UAV MQ-1 Predator. The drone has a length of 9 meters with a wingspan of 14 meters, weight - 1,1 tons.

    Pterodactyl is able to rise to a height of 5,3 thousand meters and fly a distance of up to 4 thousand km. It is equipped with aviation weapons located on wing pylons.

    In this case, the cost of such an apparatus, according to experts, should not exceed 1 million dollars, which makes it much cheaper than its Western counterparts.

    According to experts, China could become a new serious player in this market dominated by the USA and Israelreports ITAR-TASS.

    “Dozens of countries, especially the Third World, may be interested in buying Chinese drones,” said Macao military analyst Anthony Wong.
    1. mar.tira
      mar.tira 14 November 2012 12: 13 New
      +27
      This sale showed how low their leaders then went down to Russia and Ukraine. The state does not turn a hand to write. After selling and betraying the previous achievements of the country and their ancestors, I did not have fastidiousness towards the authorities and its politicians. No and now
      1. mike_z
        mike_z 14 November 2012 20: 56 New
        +6
        You're right! Statements like "Ukraine spitefully sold" - complete nonsense! They were ready to finish it for us, but we didn’t need it (yes, I think)! “Yes, he didn’t fall to us, this“ Varyag ”, - said the“ guys ”, - while our pockets are not yet full!” Then other guys came with empty pockets ... I am now guarding (not exploiting, but guarding, not letting me drown) the flooding (new, good !!), which Ukraine completed on our order ... this is a separate song, dock stood for 14 years waiting for Russia. The price of the dock is about a billion + transfer to the North + parking + crew salary + .. + .. + UHOS-S !! And it does not work, there are no cranes, no place! And all to give a damn about 5 years! What does Ukraine have to do with it? Run into yourself! So it is with the "Varangian."
    2. Evgen232
      Evgen232 15 November 2012 04: 00 New
      0
      Does it have an opener and three SIM cards?
  3. Manager
    Manager 14 November 2012 12: 18 New
    +3
    When we are in Russia, we will celebrate something like that!
    1. starshina78
      starshina78 14 November 2012 19: 40 New
      +1
      Never! Our rulers, "beloved by all" (on this site by many, but not by the common people, whom he will soon become disgusted with) Putin, the leadership of the Ministry of Defense (the former, so far nothing is heard about the aircraft carriers and the construction of other ships) The government can only speak and to shake the air, but in reality there is no further action. Well, except for the construction of the useless Mistrals. It would be better if the money spent on the construction of these vessels was given for the design and construction of the aircraft carrier. The fleet, more than ever, needs ships of the ocean zone to prevent the enemy fleets from penetrating at the far approaches, and we are building corvettes and anti-sabotage boats, we need new boats and destroyers that could guard them in the ocean. And at such a pace as now, in the thirtieth year we will not catch up with anyone, but hopelessly behind, perhaps from India.
  4. Vito
    Vito 14 November 2012 12: 20 New
    +9
    A little off topic, but the meaning of my poetic message will be understood by EVERYONE present on this page. And so the burning topic of the Russian Navy.
    In the Arctic depths
    Diving submarine
    Anxiously i'm sighing
    After all, her class is OHIO
    Guys conclusion is clear
    RUSSIA NEEDS "ASH"
    And not one but many
    Then the alarm will pass
    So that in the northern latitudes
    Flowed calm life
    LATEST submarine fleet
    MUST get
    Still need "BOREAU"
    So that the WEST has become more modest
    Partners mother them to NATO
    There are all such "friends" on ... th!
    The ending could not resist changed, a little not in rhyme, but in my opinion a dozen!
    The sailors of our Navy, I respect you dedicate.
    May God grant you health and long life !!!
  5. Splin
    Splin 14 November 2012 12: 27 New
    +4

    I will give you a link. Whoever has trouble with English, look at least for photos. There were much more Nikolaev shipbuilders there and they built an aircraft carrier all the way. Even now they are there .. Another thing is that from not everywhere in the ship they are allowed.
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/16478-liaoning-varyag-chinese-aircraft-
    carrier.html
  6. Kyki57
    Kyki57 14 November 2012 12: 34 New
    +3
    We need to build our aircraft carriers, the more the more atomic!
    1. Splin
      Splin 14 November 2012 12: 39 New
      +8
      No offense - but first hand over the Hindu to the Vikramaditya, and then swing your boat three times more and from scratch.
    2. Vito
      Vito 14 November 2012 12: 43 New
      +3
      Kyki57Good day to you. hi
      Quote: Kyki57
      We need to build our aircraft carriers, the more the more atomic!

      It’s absolutely true, we must build ourselves, but everything is moderately good.
      I think that three atomic beauties will be enough for us!
      With the money stolen from the state (a series of recent scandals), one could already be more than mortgaged! After all, they are stealing billions already.
  7. Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 12: 39 New
    +6
    We had a good ship, spared 20 million, now we will be wetting billions and whether we will invest at all. Not at all a fact request
    1. Splin
      Splin 14 November 2012 12: 41 New
      +8
      THANKS to the late Yeltsin. And for the cut Tu-160, too.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 13: 10 New
        +9
        Quote: Splin
        . And for the cut Tu-160, too.

        Something I don’t remember that Yeltsin would cut the TU-160, but Kpavchuk tried very hard with American money.
        1. Splin
          Splin 14 November 2012 13: 22 New
          +2
          Inaction is sometimes worse than action. Kravchuchka also did not run with the grinder. But when your bosom is in your bosom and a half-million-strong army is looking into your eyes, it’s not about keeping Swans. Well, you probably remember the time when there was nothing to eat, besides poached Polish products, if you say so confidently .. One such bird simply ate one and a half lemon greens a year with its idle time. But Yeltsin wanted to get them for free. That’s the whole conflict.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 13: 29 New
            +9
            Quote: Splin
            Kravchuchka also did not run with the grinder. But when your bosom is in your bosom and a half-million-strong army is looking into your eyes, it’s not about keeping Swans.

            Of course not myself, the amers tried, but Kravchuk was glad to try, although several planes could be pulled out and that only at the expense of paying gas. If they wanted to keep almost new planes they would have done it.
            Quote: Splin

            Inaction is sometimes worse than action.

            I won’t even comment on it; I wrote all of the above.
            Quote: Splin
            One such bird simply ate one and a half lemon greens a year with its idle time. But Yeltsin wanted to get them for free. That’s the whole conflict.

            how much do these planes cost and how much amers paid for the cut? And about the freebies, are you talking about Crimea? Russia itself was in debt, like in silks, but even then it supplied Ukraine cheap gas, but the freebie ended request
            1. Splin
              Splin 14 November 2012 13: 42 New
              -5
              You got already with the Crimea !!! Potemkin's laurels haunt?
              All strategic bombers were immediately offered to buy Russia, only Yeltsin refused. They were then cut, but even that costs money. Let them be American.
              Managed to save! Do not distort information. You didn’t buy it either, but received these resources and the Soviet pipeline for free
              Varangian also buy. Again it was said no. He’s not afraid of Americans like the Tu-160 and Tu-95, they didn’t give money for the quartering, otherwise you would reproach him for it ..
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 15: 32 New
                +5
                Quote: Splin

                You got already with the Crimea !!! Potemkin's laurels haunt?

                There is no laurels, but a simple sense of justice.
                Quote: Splin
                All strategic bombers were immediately offered to buy Russia, only Yeltsin refused

                Russia beg them from you, and it's not customary to buy your own.
                Quote: Splin
                ! Do not distort information. You didn’t buy it either, but received these resources and the Soviet pipeline for free

                Crimea is a gift-freebie, airplanes for gas and then Kravchuk had nothing to pay, so I had to return the planes.
                Quote: Splin
                Varangian also buy.

                For Varangian claims to ours and no one else to.
                Quote: Splin
                otherwise you would reproach him too ..

                It’s yours, the Russians are to blame for everything, who want everything for free, but in reality, we don’t ask for a freebie. We pay honestly and don’t eat hi
                1. Splin
                  Splin 14 November 2012 15: 47 New
                  -3
                  To begin with, not Russians but Russians live in Russia. Do not be confused. I think you sent mentally about Crimea. It is not Ukrainian - it is the territory of Ukraine. Feel the difference. Whatever it was you cold, it wouldn’t be hot. I’m tired of arguing with American-style logic. They also consider everything to be their own. Drawn into politics - so it’s on a different topic. Look at government channels more often - in order to make sure that Russia is a world philanthropist and everyone only drinks her blood from her .. Look at your vampire girls from the Kremlin.
                  And half of the essence of the previous comments did not receive an answer.
                  Add. You know why Ukraine’s Defense Ministry refused to barter for NITK. Yes, they themselves produce analogues of spare parts for Dryers and are much cheaper. And you say - a freebie.
                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 15: 57 New
                    +5
                    Quote: Splin
                    About Crimea, I think I sent you mentally

                    As I walked to where you sent me, you returned from there hi
                    Quote: Splin
                    To begin with, not Russians but Russians live in Russia. Do not be confused.

                    I am RUSSIAN, and not Russian, you should not be confused.
                    Quote: Splin
                    he is the territory of Ukraine

                    This is a temporary phenomenon.
                    Quote: Splin
                    Whatever it was you cold, it wouldn’t be hot. I’m tired of arguing with American-style logic. They also consider everything to be their own.

                    No, it’s all the same to us. Your logic is American, the planes were cut for money and for the sake of amers, and Russia was still to blame. It's ridiculous.
                    Quote: Splin
                    Drawn into politics - so it’s on a different topic.

                    You were the first to climb to Yeltsin, I didn’t say anything about him.
                    Quote: Splin
                    in order to make sure that Russia is a global philanthropist, and all from it only drink its blood ..

                    If not biased, then essentially it is.
                    Quote: Splin
                    And half of the essence of the previous comments did not receive an answer.

                    Something I didn’t notice, the acre-the Russians are to blame for everything.
                    1. Splin
                      Splin 14 November 2012 16: 09 New
                      -2
                      NB. My wife is Russian - but she has never been to Russia, and at the same time she is a citizen of Ukraine. I am also not Ukrainian. That's an incident. Do not confuse a nation with a nationality. And if you remember the beginning of the 90s, then only in toddlers, because such a childish resentment is heard. Yes, and Russia is unlikely to leave further. And certainly I haven’t been to Crimea.
                      1. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 16: 23 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Splin
                        I am also not Ukrainian. That's an incident. Do not confuse a nation with a nationality

                        No, I don’t confuse, I’m not Russian-I am Russian, and it has always been like that for me to spit what the deputies invented there.
                        Quote: Splin
                        And if you remember the beginning of the 90s, then only in toddlers, because such a childish resentment is heard.

                        I remember the 80s and 90s very well because of the age, there is no offense, I just don’t like to blame Russia for all their troubles, no one gives or gives Russia anything for free. The planes themselves were cut, and Russia was even blamed for this.
                        Quote: Splin
                        Yes, and Russia is unlikely to leave further.

                        Thailand, Japan, China have never been anywhere else. I was in Crimea, but still in childhood. And what is there, to which question I did not answer you, or I still did not go blind and there was no question, but only Russia is to blame.
                      2. Splin
                        Splin 14 November 2012 16: 31 New
                        +2
                        I wrote somewhere that Russia is to blame. Or Yeltsin as Louis 14 just rephrase: "Russia is Me"! Putin is also, thank God, not all of Russia. Do not equate politicians with all the people. And in occasion of the Russians = Russians. What to do with the Tatars, Udmurts, Chechens and other nations and nationalities?
                      3. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 17: 19 New
                        0
                        Quote: Splin

                        I wrote somewhere that Russia is to blame. Or Yeltsin as Louis 14 only rephrase

                        In this case, you’re not talking with Yeltsin, but with me, and I’m Russian. Your words fly into me first. Yeltsin already spit who and what will say about him.
                        Quote: Splin
                        Do not equate politicians with all the people.

                        Not even going to do it.
                        Quote: Splin
                        What to do with the Tatars, Udmurts, Chechens and other nations and nationalities?

                        Once again, I spit on what the deputies came up with. I live in Russia and I am Russian and I’m not going to lose my nationality, just like the Tatars, Udmurts, Chechens and everyone else.
                        Quote: Splin
                        And half of the essence of the previous comments did not receive an answer.

                        So what was the question, I can’t understand everything.?
              2. Sibiryak
                Sibiryak 14 November 2012 16: 15 New
                +5
                Splin
                Respected! You shout so loudly about a freebie and all that, but what then for more than 20 years of independence, Ukraine didn’t restore the work of the plant in Nikolaev so that it would begin to "puff" at 100% capacity? Weak or expect something?
                1. Splin
                  Splin 14 November 2012 16: 21 New
                  0
                  Quote: Sibiryak
                  Avoda in Nikolaev, so that he begins to "puff" at 100% power?


                  Are shipyards in Russia also fully loaded? Or if they were Eurasian, they would be downloaded. No matter how.
                  1. Sibiryak
                    Sibiryak 14 November 2012 17: 25 New
                    +1
                    Splin
                    Very interesting position, answer a question with a question! Anyway!
                    Quote: Splin
                    Are shipyards in Russia also fully loaded?

                    No, it’s not completely, part of it is being modernized, another part has not yet been taken from effective managers, but construction work is underway in the remaining part! Conclusion - the work is going on, not as smoothly as we would like, but it is coming! And what is being done in Nikolaev ??? There is absolutely nothing! As they say, we are waiting for the first star! And it’s incorrect to compare the capacities of the plant in Nikolaev in aggregate with the capacities of plants located in Russia, different weight categories!
                    But in general, we only all failed ... that we fathers and grandfathers left us and are not in a hurry to restore, but you are all looking for the extreme! It would be a desire to do, and the rest to follow! But in Ukraine, something of his (desire) is not visible.
                2. Alexander Romanov
                  Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 16: 24 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Sibiryak
                  , and what then for more than 20 years of independence, Ukraine did not restore the work of the plant in Nikolaev, so that it would begin to "puff" at 100% capacity? Weak or expect something?

                  Yes, again, we are probably to blame, we will not hear another.
            2. White
              White 14 November 2012 16: 21 New
              0
              I really do not like this argument, but I want to answer one phrase.
              Russia beg them from you, and it's not customary to buy your own.

              What does it mean, as you defined it, I can’t call that those Tu-160s are ours, but it just so happened that they stayed with us. You did not return to Ukraine all the Anes or anything else.
              Enough to share and blame each other for truth in this dispute is still no.
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 17: 12 New
                +1
                Quote: White

                What does it mean, as you defined it, I can’t call that those Tu-160s are ours, but it just so happened that they stayed with us.

                They just could have returned, but decided to bend under the amers and refill them, that's all.
                Quote: White
                Enough to share and blame each other for truth in this dispute is still no.

                Yes, there is no dispute here, I think everyone remembers how it was, only a person turns over a little and that's it.
              2. MstislavHrabr
                MstislavHrabr 14 November 2012 18: 55 New
                +1
                Unification of Ukraine and Russia. It will lead to the restoration of science-intensive and high-tech industries such as shipbuilding, aircraft manufacturing, and others. In the meantime, in Ukraine (on the outskirts of Russia) a mess and the rule of Bendery. We are one people and one country! It is necessary to unite, but ... in Russian (this means, in conscience) To calculate where it will be better, where there will be losses ... But not from the position of grabbers who are afraid of losing their power and Westerners, but from the position of the common people!
                1. Splin
                  Splin 14 November 2012 18: 59 New
                  -1
                  Quote: MstislavHrabr
                  In the meantime, in Ukraine (on the outskirts of Russia) a mess and the rule of Bendery

                  You accuse even more and build ships for at least 10 years will be separate.
                2. core
                  core 14 November 2012 20: 44 New
                  -2
                  fuck we did not rest against this association. parted so parted, I have no desire to live with the fascists in the same country.
        2. mike_z
          mike_z 14 November 2012 21: 10 New
          +3
          Alexander! It’s not worth scolding Splina, he is right in many ways. That EBN, that Krvchuchka, that Shushkevich - one field of berries. Bitches over! (although it’s not accepted about the dead ... But you can talk about these goats, God will forgive me). With the collapse of the Union, none of them thought about anything, and now we are figuring out which one is longer. Your subsequent dispute is also not constructive. As Borya Grebenshchikov would say: "I do not know anyone who is wrong." You are both right, men, why are you barking?
      2. wax
        wax 14 November 2012 23: 17 New
        0
        But didn’t Kravchuk with the EBN and Shushkevich decide to create all this discord? Nits.
  8. VAF
    VAF 14 November 2012 16: 55 New
    +4
    Quote: Splin
    And for the cut Tu-160, too.


    Or maybe amers and your Kravchuk? Although our EBN from your ... not far gone!
    Priluki and Poltava .. immediately together, for clarity ...

    1. Splin
      Splin 14 November 2012 17: 26 New
      -2
      Quote: vaf

      Or maybe amers and your Kravchuk? Although our EBN from your ... not far gone!


      I will give a more life-like example. The peasant slaughtered a cash cow. Why? Reason for loss-making due to low purchase prices for milk
      The local dairy has an overabundance; neighboring ones, due to the monopoly, set miserable prices for their purchases. And you blame the kolhan for this?
      1. Sibiryak
        Sibiryak 14 November 2012 17: 42 New
        +3
        Splin
        Quote: Splin
        I will give a more life-like example.

        And I will not give life examples, but simply say that when the Union collapsed, I did not eat red caviar with spoons, and the situation was exactly the opposite! And no need to eat, we had nothing; everyone was not sweet! Morality and principles are one thing, and it is another thing to stuff your belly by neglecting them. And then he gets first “come out the fat” then “hello mom”!
        1. Splin
          Splin 14 November 2012 17: 50 New
          +1
          People in the hungry 33rd used to be human feed. The principle of morality never came first. And if it did, then in the form of a goal of lofty ideas (victory in war or a better life for other generations) Can someone recall what lofty goals were in the brains of all our mercantile bureaucrats from the ex-USSR?
          1. core
            core 14 November 2012 20: 48 New
            +1
            probably ate Ukrainian babies? or just lard then ate?
    2. Srgsoap
      Srgsoap 14 November 2012 18: 12 New
      0
      Serge, it’s painful to watch ... There’s not enough vocabulary ...

      Yes, and the rest was cut ....
  • Big lexey
    Big lexey 14 November 2012 13: 44 New
    +2
    There would be an excellent ship in 1993, but now it would have had a state close to that of the Admiral Kuznetsov, which is in a terrible technical condition and is unlikely to be able to perform its functions in a combat situation. Unfortunately.
  • afire
    afire 14 November 2012 13: 45 New
    +2
    Friends, stop whining about the past, you won’t return anything and you need to get out of this.
    What we have is a grand technological advancement all over the world. Yes, I understand that it would be better to have what you sold then, but again, look, you need to understand that it’s not always possible to stick something more modern on that ship, since everything changes in the aircraft industry, in particular, the degree integration is great. Yes, we can build in such a way that we can quickly re-equip the same weapons on ships, but there is a huge dependency, since the ship cannot be rubber everywhere and we proceed from what we have, but the capabilities of that ship are not very soft saying we are comfortable now. Mistral is the most stupid corruption idea, which generally does not apply to integration with the Russian Navy. Just earned someone.
    I do not consider myself any expert, but I will take the audacity to think, I hope to support the forum users that the future Russian TAVKR is:
    a) highly maneuverable
    b) high-tech
    c) as much as possible integrated into existing and perspective types
    weapons.
    d) a ship that can protect a huge territory and the rest
    around him alone, having only his reserves.
    d) have a minimum staff, in fact an automatic complex with
    air group.
    ..... complement

    To realize all this in those ships is simply unrealistic! need a brand new ship, with new solutions and ideas,
    technologies that exist (and appear) + Russian people + our ideas = this is a new generation ship. and it cannot be compared with those good ships, they were relevant then and remain relevant, but tactics and weapons are changing. Let's think about the future of the country and future ships. Glory to Russia!
    1. Splin
      Splin 14 November 2012 13: 50 New
      +1
      Question. Where will they build it?
      1. Dart weyder
        Dart weyder 14 November 2012 14: 33 New
        +6
        shipyards were going to finish building the Admiralty - after all, not only aircraft carriers could be built there, but large-class ocean-going vessels could be built, but under the USSR there were only in Nikolaev ... Ukraine was built up between west and east, wants to please everyone and to tear money, that's how the gas with a pipe - you can expect anything from a monkey with a grenade - anyone who promises a better jackpot will dance her laughing he’s from Ukraine, but you won’t erase words from a song, be it Yusch or Yanyk
        1. Splin
          Splin 14 November 2012 14: 44 New
          +1
          Not a bit about the shipyard. I communicate in the Polish forum. Those, too, shout, "Decide and give to us." But if to the West, then Ukraine will face the fate of the Baltic states i.e. full POPA !. If only with Russia-also mountains of almonds will not. So you have to spin. Chuchma was still right. Yanyk is now taking the same courses. Although they are all pi ... s.
          1. Dart weyder
            Dart weyder 14 November 2012 15: 29 New
            +1
            (lyrical digression) - under Kuchma it was better, everything was somehow stable and improved, then these ghouls came - and letting me shred and divide, I was already sick of these elections what
          2. bootlegger
            bootlegger 14 November 2012 16: 14 New
            +3
            Quote: Splin
            Those, too, shout, "Decide and give to us."

            Well, self-conceit is among the Poles. laughing
            How do they imagine this interesting? How do you plan to keep this union?
            Do you find out first? )) Maybe they plan to be kept at your expense?
            I don’t believe in independent Poland, and in Ukraine too. Want to be offended, you want to not. All this running around for the time being, for a while .... Not long left.
            1. Splin
              Splin 14 November 2012 16: 17 New
              0
              Quote: bootlegger
              Well, self-conceit is among the Poles.


              The Poles are not talking about themselves but about the West under these words. Maybe I just wrote it wrong. Not in the right shape.
              1. bootlegger
                bootlegger 14 November 2012 17: 22 New
                0
                Quote: Splin
                Maybe I just wrote wrong

                Yes, I basically understood that. But do the Poles in the EU accept? They themselves are the junior partners there. The key decision is for Germany, well, France, as the main sponsors. Expressing mathematically is a necessary condition. And without Germany, nothing will surely budge.
                And in order to make such a decision, Germany must consciously go to an acute conflict with Russia. It is difficult to imagine such a situation now.
          3. Vladimir 70
            Vladimir 70 14 November 2012 17: 11 New
            +1
            Not a bit about the shipyard. I communicate in the Polish forum. Those, too, shout, "Decide and give to us." But if to the West, then Ukraine will face the fate of the Baltic states i.e. full POPA !. If only with Russia-also mountains of almonds will not. So you have to spin. Chuchma was still right. Yanyk is now taking the same courses. Ho natya they are all Pi ... s.
            There is a small correction: sitting two on chairs, this is far from Kuchma's merit. It was just that at that time Ebonko was listed as the president of Russia, and “advisers” with passports of Anglo-Saxons led it. The GDP is slowly covering this shop, as it pursues far-reaching goals. So Yanukovych simply does not succeed in sitting on two chairs, with all his will. And yet, Yanukovych does not go to the Customs Union and caves in under Europe, only because Europe will immediately announce him as a dictator and take away everything that is stolen by "overwhelming labor." Nothing personal, just loot.
      2. Splin
        Splin 14 November 2012 14: 33 New
        +1
        While waiting for the answer to the question, I found it myself. It turns out only in St. Petersburg on the Baltic. He is the only one in Russia who has stocks for 80 thousand tons.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 November 2012 16: 13 New
          +6
          Sevmash, if sclerosis does not lie to me, has stocks up to 100 or even over 100 thousand tons. True, there are some restrictions on the width of the ship
          1. Armata
            Armata 14 November 2012 19: 53 New
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Sevmash, if sclerosis does not lie to me, has stocks up to 100 or even over 100 thousand tons. True, there are some restrictions on the width of the ship
            There are slipways up to 100, and the dimensions allow. Only here they are decrepit. They were promised money to replace, but the only way it was all on paper remained. But the aircraft carriers they are going to build.
            1. saturn.mmm
              saturn.mmm 14 November 2012 23: 04 New
              0
              Quote: Mechanic
              Only here they are decrepit. They were promised money to replace, but the only way it was all on paper remained. But the aircraft carriers they are going to build.

              The film does not seem to be in distress now, unlike the late 90s
      3. mike_z
        mike_z 14 November 2012 21: 17 New
        0
        In St. Petersburg! Capacities are quite enough. In Könick at the Amber, if he can ... I don’t know for sure. Well, Severodvinsk is not a pound of raisins. It would be a task!
    2. mike_z
      mike_z 14 November 2012 21: 15 New
      0
      At least destroyers 956 of the project to revive for a start. Upgrade a little bit of power plants, repair those that can still be built with a dozen new ones. And then it will come to TavKrov.
  • 77bor1973
    77bor1973 14 November 2012 16: 03 New
    +4
    Only we were sold it not at the price of scrap metal, but as a product, and these are completely different prices.
    1. Splin
      Splin 14 November 2012 16: 14 New
      -1
      Quote: 77bor1973

      Only we were sold it not at the price of scrap metal, but as a product, and these are completely different prices.

      And this is a plus for Chinese managers, who managed to bring down the price, and not flush out especially for Russia.
      1. 77bor1973
        77bor1973 14 November 2012 23: 08 New
        0
        Do not tell my horseshoes!
  • VAF
    VAF 14 November 2012 16: 52 New
    +3
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    We had a good ship, spared 20 million


    Sanya, But the Taburetkin sister of real estate worth more than 700 million rubles lol
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 14 November 2012 17: 09 New
      +2
      Quote: vaf

      Sanya, But the Taburetkin sister of real estate worth more than 700 million rubles

      Hi Sergey, I’ve read it already, this is just the surface part of the iceberg. There you will dig up and billions will fall.
  • core
    core 14 November 2012 20: 35 New
    +4
    you are naive. we wouldn’t have sold it for twenty lyam of non-Russian money, we needed a completely different amount, several times more.
  • max-02215
    max-02215 14 November 2012 12: 40 New
    +3
    These are crimes against the Motherland and the people, and everything got away with it.
  • Dart weyder
    Dart weyder 14 November 2012 12: 45 New
    +7
    it’s a pity they didn’t tell how they cut Ulyanovsk, and who put their hands on it .... then the CIA shrugged the future “cooperators” as young, and the EBN was still the same,, ak, I almost melted the finished cruisers ....... .
    1. Splin
      Splin 14 November 2012 12: 49 New
      0
      Ulyanovsk was about 20 percent ready. There, they managed to do it without the help of the CIA.
      1. Dart weyder
        Dart weyder 14 November 2012 13: 52 New
        +4
        since the northern neighbor had no money for completion (as well as desire), the Americans promptly proposed to build a commercial vessel of large displacement (just one that could fit only in the dock in which Ulyanovsk was, a pure coincidence !? laughing offering considerable financial benefits to novice businessmen from Nikolaev, although more likely from Kiev, because it certainly wouldn’t have passed bypassing Kravchuk) and in a hurry, because Ukraine clearly doesn’t need such a miracle of technology as an aircraft carrier .... there’s not even submarines needed - and one is enough laughing Sorry for exaggerating ..... Russia with EBN and Chubais and Gaidars - and so it was where to make money, the corps was raspilili, released the dock - and here ...... about the mountain !!!!! the company the customer went bankrupt and washed off with the order !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bully worried overseas comrades that can change their minds and finish it !? and the industry of the neighbor would be supported, and they would have acquired another club, ...... but it wasn’t before ... now there is a backlog for many summers, and there’s no need to talk about "projects", NOBODY CANCELED the practical experience !!! !!!!!!!!!!
        1. Splin
          Splin 14 November 2012 13: 58 New
          -1
          In Nikolaev two docks hundred thousandths. One of them was empty. And for 20 years Ukraine only this year built to order the only tanker, and then in Kherson. So this is incorrect information.
          1. Dart weyder
            Dart weyder 14 November 2012 14: 35 New
            +1
            of course incorrect - he invented it himself!)))))))))) wassat what was - it was ... and cut without delay, and then ........... one tanker in 20 years, and then in Kherson - apparently a smaller displacement was
  • predator.2
    predator.2 14 November 2012 12: 49 New
    +6
    «The Varangians were supposed to hand over to the fleet in 1993, and the next - the nuclear carrier Ulyanovsk - in 1996. The Black Sea plant was preparing for metal cutting for the second nuclear aircraft carrier of project 11437 (order 108, still without a name), which should have been laid right after the launch of Ulyanovsk in 1992. Thus, if the contemplated plans for the construction of aircraft carriers had been fulfilled with the periodicity of delivering one ship to the fleet every three years, then by 2010 the Varyag TAKR and five Ulyanovsk-class nuclear carriers could have been built and handed over. And three more would be under construction.
    Here they are the fruits of the collapse of the USSR, as a result we have only the “Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov” and it’s not fully armed, the Aviation Group is 50 planes and helicopters
    According to the project:
    26 × MiG-29K or Su-27K
    4 × Ka-27RLD
    18 × Ka-27 or Ka-29
    2 × Ka-27PS
    Actually:
    weaponry

    For 2010, the wing includes:
    Su-33 - 18
    Su-25UTG - 4
    Ka-27 / Ka-27PS - 15
    Ka-31 - 2

    Also, the aircraft carrier is armed with:
    12 × SCRC 4K80 Granite
    PU SAM "Dagger" (192 missiles)
    8 × ZRAK 3M87 Dagger
    2 × RBU-12000 "Boa constrictor"
    8 * AK-630
    There are also no DLRO aircraft.
  • Beck
    Beck 14 November 2012 13: 30 New
    +4
    All whined patriots. West, USA, bullshit, liberals, gumnoists. They didn’t want to look back. Now get it. One could talk about the West. Try to talk with China, especially after ten years.

    Well, here on the Russian fig in the Pacific, in addition to US aircraft carriers, China's aircraft carriers are also looking out for the horizon. So no, they were systematically moving towards this. The West, foreseeing China's growing economic power, has banned the supply of arms to China. The Kremlin was delighted, there were no competitors, it sold Mig and Su, and this put China's modern aircraft industry on its feet. Now they rivet their J on the patterns of Su and Mig. The Kremlin could block the sale of Varyag to China; But he did not look far. Block at least by the fact that buy "Varyag" from Ukraine for 30 million. It remains for China to buy the T-90 from the Kremlin in order to switch from the production of its tanks on the basis of the T-54 to the production of its tanks on the basis of the T-90.

    The Chinese do not throw words into the wind. The last congress of the CCP of China set the task. In 10 years, become the first economy in the world. And he will become. But it doesn’t matter. The trouble is that in ten years, China will become a second power in a wonderful sense, and this, with the help of the Kremlin, will strive, in the future, to become the first free power. Then we will bite our elbows when China will put forward its demands from a position of strength. And he will advance and then the USA will appear as a flower. This stems from Beijing's communist ideology.

    Here is the Chinese communist ideology in the Chinese way. (International)

    THE WHOLE WORLD HUMANITIES Destructible

    BEFORE BASIS, AND THEN WE ARE OUR

    КИТАЙСКИЙ BUILD THE WORLD

    WHO WAS PEOPLE WILL BECOME HAN.
    1. stray
      stray 14 November 2012 15: 22 New
      -1
      The troubled, Varyag Tark is a flawed project of a full-time aircraft carrier, which, in the apt expression of Vasil Ivanovich, does not give a damn and forget. neither the Chinese, nor even the aliens will make of him anything better than what he is. and don’t have to hysteria, sprinkle ash on your head and tear off the last hair on your ass about this.
    2. Tirpitz
      Tirpitz 14 November 2012 16: 17 New
      +4
      It makes sense in your statement. + USA is far away and China is nearby.
      1. Nickname
        Nickname 14 November 2012 17: 36 New
        -2
        And China will not ally with us. He is much more interested in playing a card against us and the Americans. Amer is their main consumer, and Russia only prevents territories from being developed “like Be Chinese”
    3. Nickname
      Nickname 14 November 2012 17: 35 New
      0
      It's like that. And China will not ally with us. He is much more interested in playing a card against us and the Americans. Amer is their main consumer, and Russia only prevents territories from being developed “like Be Chinese”
    4. core
      core 14 November 2012 21: 01 New
      +4
      do not scare us with China, China itself is afraid, it will be between a rock and a hard place, and with whomever China has a conflict, it will remain a loser. In RUSSIA there is a rear, enemies will not come north of there, the United States has an ocean, the Chinese do not learn how to swim, no matter how they puff, and the Chinese rear does not, with the exception of northern brown, have disputed territories around, as with RUSSIA, Japan, India, etc. .
      1. nickname 1 and 2
        nickname 1 and 2 15 November 2012 17: 26 New
        +1
        core,
        And indeed! It never occurred to me that they are arming themselves in order to = respect more! Well, at least they didn’t send (though in thoughts).
        Let's say Israel is a tiny one, but they’re not sending it ?!
        Are we, Russia - Russia, arming ourselves? Yes ! - not enough. For what?
        And what's wrong with China becoming the MOST in every sense?
        The fact is that whatever Hitler and the party would come to the AUTHORITIES!
        And the latest weapons - are developing rapidly and the aircraft carrier can soon become a simple trough in which there is a lot of everything that is easy to send to the bottom!
        Already, not only Hitler’s Tank Wedge, but also the atomic bomb, the time comes, not to be defeated!
        1. Beck
          Beck 15 November 2012 19: 49 New
          -1
          Quote: nick 1 and 2
          And what's wrong with China becoming the MOST in every sense?


          Hey. Progress is underway and it is possible that in 50 years the aircraft carriers will be a trough. Although the Chinese, having studied the Varangian, are already laying 7 aircraft carriers.

          But anyway it will be bad if China is the first military power. My opinion. Their mentality is not the same. It is not known what to expect from them. Their mentality is not European or Eurasian, but the essence is Asian, narrow-eyed. And you know why their heads are round, and this is so that thoughts in the corners do not stagnate, but spin all the time in motion. Well, at least from history. They sent an embassy to the Huns. Shanuy of the Huns answered solid NO. European ambassadors would take and leave. The Chinese, on the other hand, lived near the Chanyu rate for half a year and a year. In the end, they left with YES.

          This is completely my rejection, BUT ...
          1. nickname 1 and 2
            nickname 1 and 2 16 November 2012 09: 34 New
            0
            Beck,
            Hey.
            Let yourself lay.
            May these 7 aircraft carriers bother the United States. It is for the USA - first of all, China is building.
            Not only China is distinguished by its original behavior.
            By the way, why are you silent? After all, they must re-preserve their maternity organs! How - the demographic misfortune is coming! There are many more old people than young people; retirement is at stake.
            I propose expanding the range of concerns: three huge alien ships are flying toward the earth, the asteroid is looking at it, will crash into our planet and come - a dock, the earth can soon change its poles - a flood, diggers can dig up such microbes that will cause incurable epidemics, etc. .

            Quote: Beck
            and the essence is Asian, narrow-eyed.
            - outdated! Mao is not a spell either. The people have proven their learning ability.
            No! It is quite a civilian people.
            1. Beck
              Beck 16 November 2012 13: 19 New
              -1
              Quote: nick 1 and 2
              - outdated! Mao is not a spell either. The people have proven their learning ability. No! It is quite a civilian people.


              You misunderstood. I did not say that the Chinese people are wild and undeveloped. I said that they are Asian cunning, can hide their emotions behind a mask of friendliness, patiently and for a long time wait for their moment. The conditions of the moment, they act quickly and ruthlessly.

              China will build aircraft carriers for its army, but it will correspond to the moment of interest where and against whom it will be directed.

              Maternity organs? And why am I silent? So the topic is not about insemination in China.

              It is difficult to make a sincere partner from China, especially if it is the first economy and the first military power. China will become a strategic adversary in the future, and primarily to Russia. So China will draw out its medieval maps with the outline of the former imperial desires of the Chinese Bogdykhan.
              1. nickname 1 and 2
                nickname 1 and 2 16 November 2012 14: 13 New
                +1
                Beck,
                Here one mistake must be corrected: China, traditionally, is considered an analogue - locusts! This is automatic. And this is not so! Can put under a gun up to one hundred million. Can deliver? Maybe! And feed, equip i.e. rear support of the army? THIS IS NOT REAL! Therefore, we must consider China and its army as another state during the war and the military situation! It’s not easy to secure an army of one million, ten million is very difficult, one hundred million — the army will eat itself.
                So, in my opinion - no need to tremble.

                Quote: Beck
                about insemination in China.
                - but not about that, their number will increase rapidly! Those. internal problems will increase.


                Quote: Beck
                China will pull out its medieval
                = bullshit all this!
                Even if they stupidly go to the lands of the Russian Federation - use tried-and-true tactics: while leaving, leave the scorched earth. Food problem plus climate !!! They will do their job.
                So sleep well!
                1. Beck
                  Beck 16 November 2012 19: 40 New
                  -1
                  Quote: nick 1 and 2
                  So sleep well!


                  Yes, in my age, and this situation is enough.

                  In short. I do not want in the future the Eurasian Union led by Russia to confront an additional economic and military competitor in the form of a kmtaite dragon. Enough for us America, Europe, India, Brazil.
                  1. nickname 1 and 2
                    nickname 1 and 2 16 November 2012 20: 25 New
                    +1
                    Beck,
                    I really want the US to become an order of magnitude weaker! BUT, what of this?
                    And on China, desires will not work! If there are objective reasons, China will become the MOST!
                    It is hoped that there will be more prudent people than freaks. wink

                    How are things with the border guard Chalykh (who allegedly shot the outpost).
                    1. Beck
                      Beck 17 November 2012 14: 21 New
                      -1
                      Quote: nick 1 and 2
                      And on China, desires will not work!


                      Clear business will not work. But this is a discussion site. So we are discussing how anyone can.

                      Chalykh. The investigation is over. There will be a trial soon. Chaly's defense wants a jury trial.

                      My personal opinion, according to materials known to me, well, which were in the media. Chalych on the video, testimony at the scene, not intimidated, adequate, explains everything calmly, in detail. My opinion. No drug trafficking, extra-articular relations are not visible, Chalykh himself was a "grandfather." Probably just a malfunction in the psyche of a soldier. Probably in court, on the advice of Chalykh's lawyers, he will deny everything, but this is the right of the accused as a remedy. Higher officers are held accountable. Since they did not respond to a three-day silence from the Chaly outpost.
        2. core
          core 16 November 2012 11: 15 New
          0
          I somewhere called in my comments to disarm my own country? I just give an assessment of the alarmist mood of our military and paramilitary circles. I urge you to be more critical of everything written. urbanization came to China, and after it comes selfishness, Chinese women will not give birth to children (a lot). It will be the world's oldest nation in China and Japan. from the eastern tigers will remain old ragged cats.
    5. nickname 1 and 2
      nickname 1 and 2 16 November 2012 21: 57 New
      +1
      Beck,
      Tell me what?

      Separately about the Kazakhs. The bulk is the people driven into the Middle Ages. and the Kazakhs themselves drove him there. Since the days of the USSR, Kazakhs have degraded in a very strong way - the technical and scientific intelligentsia has been lost, and motivation has changed. Now it’s not prestigious to be a scientist, but a grabber an official or a prosecutor, to ride a Lexus. And whoever does not have such an opportunity (almost everyone has it) - into the mud, to the bazaars. And the people already have a normal attitude towards this - and Che, in the steppe it has always been like that - black bone and white bone. The Kazakhs slipped into clan relations and find out who are the clans, and on this basis they divide - this buy (albeit stupid), this slave (albeit smart). THIS WILDNESS, YOU WILL NOT SELECT YOURSELF. The kind of life that you have revived does not give you a chance to get out, because it does not allow young people to develop and learn - there is no time - you need to observe customs, then arrange constantly, and sit in the mosque for a look. In such an atmosphere, your youth is dying, and the nation is degrading. But no one sees this - the crowding out of the Slavs and their own exaltation led to the loss of self-criticism. Most young people have no idea what is going on outside the borders of Kazakhstan, many have not seen anything except their villages. Corresponding to this, a new mentality (Kyrgyz even go to Russia to earn money - they see how much). The results are obvious - there is no development, no education, no science, no industry - everything rests on oil. When it ends - all the khan. And not a khan, but a khan. Plus to that. even inter-juvenile hatred, Western Kazakhstani separatism, tyranny of southerners and the hostility of others to them ... Thus, the Kazakhs themselves are a socially divided ethnic group with conflicting interests and internal disputes, and Kazakhstan is a short-lived non-viable and defenseless state with poor prospects. So with what fright did you rush to bury Russia, instead of honestly and truthfully looking at your country?

      vaddy72 KZ Today, 21:25 PM ↑ new
      http://topwar.ru/index.php?newsid=20895
      it's here
  • nickname 1 and 2
    nickname 1 and 2 14 November 2012 15: 23 New
    +3
    ***** Specialists from leading countries of the world classify the design and construction of nuclear aircraft carriers as unique technologies, and we already owned such technologies by the end of the 80s of the XX century. *****

    and this is because "some goat-bearded intellectuals could pi ... how many will get branded on any topic!"

    How many will throw us back?
    1. Beck
      Beck 14 November 2012 18: 17 New
      -2
      Why are you and to whom?
  • sxn278619
    sxn278619 14 November 2012 16: 15 New
    +4
    Russia does not need aircraft carrier groups. All excess money must be thrown into space. Who is the main in space is the main in the world.
    1. Beck
      Beck 14 November 2012 18: 34 New
      -3
      Quote: sxn278619
      Russia does not need aircraft carrier groups. All excess money must be thrown into space. Who is the main in space is the main in the world.


      I do not agree. For global politics, space and strategic rockets.

      For regional politics, you need AUG. A completely different calico will be if two AUGs are advanced to the Suez Canal and to the Strait of Hormuz, rather than three barges and five watchdogs. And the carrier rods would be to push the carrier groups to Cuba and Venezuela. Yes, and near Shanghai from Hong Kong to put on duty.
      1. core
        core 14 November 2012 21: 03 New
        +2
        and how will the RUSSIAN Aircraft Carrier influence the politics of Tashkent? or Ashgabat or the same Baku.
        1. Beck
          Beck 14 November 2012 22: 23 New
          -2
          Quote: core
          and how will the RUSSIAN Aircraft Carrier influence the politics of Tashkent? or Ashgabat or the same Baku.


          Well, if we mean military force under the influence, then Ashgabat is not located overseas, there are land forces, the Caspian flotilla.
  • SSR
    SSR 14 November 2012 16: 35 New
    +1
    The cost of the last US aircraft carrier, George W. Bush, reached $ 6,2 billion,

    it turns out that three B2 at a cost as one aircraft carrier ....
    oh yo .... even more wanted to dig deeper into this "bird" ....
    1. TAGIR
      TAGIR 14 November 2012 17: 04 New
      0
      www.npomars.com all about the fleet
  • A1594
    A1594 14 November 2012 17: 46 New
    +1
    Nikolaev shipbuilding plants have huge technical potential, and personnel for them are being prepared here, in one of our best educational institutions
    - NKI is training ENGINEERS. vocational schools that trained workers have long been closed or reprofiled. All at least anything worthwhile at ChSZ has long been sold. half of the territory is sold. rented part. of the old frames there is no one. Huge stocks of metal sold for scrap. WHO will build aircraft carriers? and WHAT? The only factory with which you can still build warships is the plant named after him. 61-communard. but certainly not of such a large displacement and class as aircraft carriers. That's exactly it. I understand what Babich wants, but alas ...
    1. Splin
      Splin 14 November 2012 17: 57 New
      0
      ChSZ builds, the Feodosian "Sea" builds, Kiev "Lenin Forge" builds. What more do you need?
  • StrateG
    StrateG 14 November 2012 18: 54 New
    +3
    Yes, because they turned out to be much smarter "


    We probably underestimate the Chinese. But they use it.
    1. WW3
      WW3 14 November 2012 21: 12 New
      +3
      Quote: StrateG
      We probably underestimate the Chinese.

      China is now building up its military power in full swing, sooner or later it will go to war, the main thing is that this is not a direction to the North.
  • CAPILATUS
    CAPILATUS 14 November 2012 19: 19 New
    +3
    What a good article. A man all correctly and on the shelves laid out without drawings and show-offs.
    I well remember how my mother cried when the union fell apart ...
  • Simon
    Simon 14 November 2012 19: 45 New
    +2
    Yes, it’s very unfortunate that the Varyag aircraft carrier did not become a Russian aircraft carrier. recourse hi
  • CARBON
    CARBON 14 November 2012 19: 54 New
    +2
    I wouldn’t cry if this American Liaoning missile would sink.
    Only these are dreams, China today is a hiding tiger that watches the world. He is waiting in the wings when the world will be ready for him to come as a world leader, when everyone from the USA will have only vomiting and just a great desire to wipe them off the face of the earth, Europe will finally fall into insanity as an old man, decrepit, corroded by sores and parasites, Russia will become weaker and cannot, without perishing for herself, as a state resist the Chinese expansion to the north.
    I can say that the Chinese will agree with the Arabs and those flags of the Celestial Empire will not burn, they may well be divided in the direction of expansion.
    China is the USSR of 1939, with enormous potential and in the near future with unimaginable armed forces having only one goal, world domination, only in contrast to the USSR, not by class, but by nationality.
    1. core
      core 14 November 2012 21: 08 New
      +3
      YOU SOMETHING something confused, Arabs are not independent players, and no one takes them seriously, they play politics with a lot of money. they have only sand behind them. but there is India, there is Pakistan, there are Islamic Indonesia and Malaysia. and as for the tiger, he, as if lurking, will remain so. China as Germany, with whom no one would start to fight, it will be destroyed.
      1. CARBON
        CARBON 14 November 2012 22: 13 New
        0
        I meant the Muslim world of the Near and Middle East. China for them today is a big business partner, and in the future an ally. For Pakistan, he is Ally No. 1 today, they have a common rival, India. The Muslim East understands that the United States will never let them control its fate. The United States is weakening, it is engaged in garbage under the name "Arab Spring" I think that now many are tired of it and they will soon get tired of being just an "oil field". In addition, the Muslim population of Europe is growing every year, which is the detonator of the future social and terrorist explosion in a now calm and well-fed Europe. When the countries with dictatorships end, the turn of the countries will come, which "saved" them from these dictatorships. In my opinion, the hottest regions are Turkey, the Balkans and France. After such saturation with money, an exit for this "dark force" will be needed. Europe, with its rampant democracy, will not stop this wave.
        At the expense of Indonesia there from 237 million. There are almost 10 million Chinese inhabitants, in Malaysia, out of 28 million -26% of them (almost 7,5 million). Than not 5 columns and future governors.
        1. core
          core 15 November 2012 11: 58 New
          0
          you shouldn’t be so neglectful of the old woman of Europe, when they are impatient, they can be very tough, even cruel, while they play multiculturalism, but the population (the indigenous) will soon get tired of it, but they won’t go to demonstrations and will not kill Arabs on trains , but simply stop paying taxes, and then the state will have to react harshly to the problem. within a year they will solve the problem. turn it off - the pale police brothers are able to do this, in the east everything is expansive, fast and to no avail, but the French, etc. everything will be according to plan, all according to calculation.
    2. mike_z
      mike_z 14 November 2012 21: 23 New
      0
      To my great regret, you are right ...
  • WW3
    WW3 14 November 2012 20: 28 New
    +2
    $ 20 million at 70% readiness ... cunning Chinese as a "museum" led through the Bosphorus ...
    A photo of Liaoning with a shower turned on shone ...
    1. WW3
      WW3 14 November 2012 20: 39 New
      +2
      And so they took him ...
    2. Beck
      Beck 14 November 2012 22: 32 New
      0
      Quote: WW3
      cunning Chinese as a "museum" led through the Bosphorus ..


      A museum is not a museum. And if for fun. The Russian aircraft carriers were called Heavy Aviation Carriers - TAKR, precisely because of the Bosporus and Dardanelles.

      According to international agreements, aircraft carriers cannot pass through these straits. Neither here nor here. This was beneficial to the USSR. Aierican carriers could not enter the Black Sea. When the USSR built its aircraft carriers in Nikolaev, he called them TAKRs. Thus, aircraft carriers were withdrawn from the Black Sea to the World Ocean.
      1. WW3
        WW3 14 November 2012 22: 44 New
        +2
        Yes, not in the sense I took the word "museum" in quotation marks that it was outdated, and that it was held as a museum or a casino by the floating Chinese .... as a result, apparently the Turks were stuck in a bribe and they agreed to skip ...
        In 1992, with 67% technical readiness, construction was suspended, the ship was mothballed and in April 1998 it was sold to the Chinese company Chong Lot Travel Agency Ltd for $ 20 million, as it was announced, to organize a floating entertainment center with a casino. The towing of the ship lasted 627 days (Turkey, under US pressure, refused to let it through the Bosphorus for 16 months)

        For the rest, I agree ... who controls the strait - controls the Black Sea ...
  • Badger
    Badger 14 November 2012 21: 55 New
    0
    Udet bargaining for the Black Sea Fleet. Ukraine is ready to eliminate the clause on the modernization and receipt of new ships of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, if orders are placed at Ukrainian plants. They say negotiations are progressing well.
  • mimoxod
    mimoxod 14 November 2012 22: 50 New
    +2
    Lord! You will excuse me, but even the title of the article infuriates me already. How much can fraternal people bleed on your site. Is there really no problem in Russia except Ukraine and the USA. Or is it impossible to write about poverty and lack of rights here? I’ve been on the site for a year now, but I rarely see such petty and often unreasonable hatred of Ukrainian on serious sites. It is impossible to instill patriotism on domestic chauvinism. Hate strikes hate !!
    1. WW3
      WW3 14 November 2012 23: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: mimoxod
      Lord! You will excuse me, but even the title of the article infuriates me already.

      And what specifically infuriates you in the title?
      What instead of "Varangian" had to write "Liaoning"? Great stuff ...
      to the author my "+".
    2. Beck
      Beck 14 November 2012 23: 05 New
      -3
      Quote: mimoxod
      It is impossible to instill patriotism on domestic chauvinism. Hate strikes hate !!


      Well, here are simple words, and the most correct ones. From Russia, look through the eyes of the cheers-patriots, so there are only enemies all around. And how to live with that look?
    3. nickname 1 and 2
      nickname 1 and 2 15 November 2012 14: 31 New
      0
      mimoxod,

      I support! Old men! Well, or who does not consider himself that way, but he’s already lived! Dear! Is it time to look back?
      Who is reading this forum? What age? There is no indicator! A chatter goes like in a bad smoking room. Yes, not in the smoking room, you are friends! Indeed, in a smoking room, many will hold on to the language, if small ones are present.
      Purely Russian carelessness! How will this affect the minds of young people, has anyone ever thought twice?
      Write to the PM! If unbearable. Or tell how it is done? Click on nick = there everything will be clear. drinks
  • suharev-52
    suharev-52 14 November 2012 22: 55 New
    -1
    The article is good. I like it. Guys do not need to swear. Soon everyone will not be up to it. "...... And the survivors will kill each other, for a piece of bread and a sip of water ......" And these are not some sort of showers. Everything goes to that. Sincerely.
  • CARBON
    CARBON 14 November 2012 22: 58 New
    0
    A small digression about the Ukrainian-Chinese "friendship." China constantly gives Ukraine loans, moreover, unlike the EU, it gives them in the sectors of the economy, in which it takes a long time to wait for returns, but it may not be received at all. For example, $ 3,6 billion for a coal-gas substitution project, $ 3 billion for "growing corn." In the modern realities of the Kingdom of Ukraine, pennies can even dissolve. At the same time, the Chinese don’t give a damn about it, if only they would take it) That is, they give Ukraine to swallow more bait, and then demand the return of debts not with coal and corn, for which they need them (you can buy a closer look), but purely with their products of interest. I do not exclude on this list: military transport aircraft, rocket launchers, engines and units for aircraft, gas-turbine installations of warships, warships, modern developments in armored vehicles and technology for their production.
  • mimoxod
    mimoxod 14 November 2012 23: 19 New
    +1
    I am a Ukrainian and a former officer of the Russian army, but in a military school in St. Petersburg, I have not met such hatred at the household level. Other komenty shamefully read. They are written or mishandled or cattle. And the stories on this specialized site about how grandmothers in Ukraine are tearing me down are mostly people telling about the negative only to show their "exceptional knowledge". I am interested in the site as a military review and not as "perpetual diarrhea of ​​angry people." Sorry for the emotions.
    1. CARBON
      CARBON 15 November 2012 12: 43 New
      0
      And here "exceptional knowledge", Ukraine is arming China. If earlier it was possible to trade with China only what they wanted to sell him, then he would soon pick up what he needed. In addition, the Chinese do not give real money, but give equipment for the same mines and agriculture, therefore they also damage Ukrainian factories for the production of these products. If you see the hatred in my posts for the country in which we both live, you are not right - this is not hatred for the country of Ukraine, but an expression of pain for what it has become-an oligarchic-clan dictatorship, with lawlessness and complete disregard for its citizens (
  • d.gksueyjd
    d.gksueyjd 14 November 2012 23: 48 New
    +1
    An off-topic commentary about who there dreamed of legality in the Russian Federation - Serdyukov swam out (crap * doesn’t sink), appointed deputy. This only confirms that the laws in the Russian Federation are intended for the people (cattle), and not for the "respected": thieves, officials, embezzlers!
    Well, who else is there against Grandfather STALIN and his methods of educating the stealing nomenclature? Continue to worship these "democrats" (crooks)) am
    These actions of the GDP indicate that October is necessary for the rebirth of RUSSIA! am
    1. mike_z
      mike_z 15 November 2012 11: 09 New
      0
      Yes, a plaque, a fly, such a taunt as the ascent of Serdyukov, I did not even expect from Pu ... So spit in the soul of everyone ... It is hoped that this will get away with it. And it will come down am