Forgotten Empire of the Khazars

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Forgotten Empire of the Khazars

After reading the title of this article, the reader will first of all remember Pushkin's "Song of the Prophetic Oleg":

How is prophetic Oleg now gathered
Take revenge on the unreasonable Khazars.
Their villages and fields for a violent raid
He doomed swords and fires ...


The Slavs (Krivichi) and Chud pay tribute to the Varangians, and the Polans, Northerners and Vyatichi pay tribute to the Khazars. Radziwill chronicle. End of the XNUMXth century

So, in The Tale of Bygone Years, the chronicler begins the Russian history with the mention of the tribute that the Khazars collected from the Slavic tribes of the Middle Dnieper. Nestor the chronicler tells how the steppe-Khazars approached the land of the meadows - the then inhabitants of Kyiv, and demanded tribute from them, and the meadows gave them tribute with swords, in which the Khazars saw an unkind sign! Later, this happened, the chronicler concludes his story - the Russian princes began to own the Khazars.



As Alexander Sergeevich wrote, the Khazars were “avenged”, but not by Oleg and not by his son Igor, but by Igor’s heir, Svyatoslav, who in the 960s defeated the once powerful Khazar state, leaving no stone unturned from him ...

Where did the Khazars come from?


If we rewind a little from the Khazar history, then the Khazars were by no means the first inhabitants of the steppe zone of Eurasia, who sought to impose tribute on settled farmers and townspeople.

In the XNUMXth century, the Hunnic state, which terrified the whole of Eurasia, collapsed, and it was replaced, presumably from Central Asia, by a new wave of conquerors - the Turks, who replaced other nomads in these steppes - the Iranian-speaking Sarmatians and Alans, and created their own state - the Turkic Khaganate, where the title of the ruler of this nomadic formation - "kagan" (khan of khans), was equated with the title of the emperor himself!


Turkic Khaganate

By the end of the XNUMXth century, during the period of the greatest expansion of the Khaganate, this state controlled a huge territory, which included the territories of modern Northern China, Mongolia, Altai, Central Asia, Crimea and the North Caucasus!

But, as is always the case with unstable and nomadic states, in 603 the Turkic Khaganate broke up into two warring groups of Turks - the Western Turkic and Eastern Turkic Khaganates.


Map of the Western Turkic and Eastern Turkic Khaganates

The possessions of the newly formed Western Turkic Khaganate stretched from Central Asia to the Urals and the Black Sea steppes and included a large number of different peoples. And it was through this territory that the most important trade routes passed, where the interests of the largest eastern powers clashed and a struggle was fought for control over them, which led to constant wars and changes in territories.

And it was there, in the Western Turkic Khaganate - in the steppes of the Eastern Ciscaucasia, that our heroes ended up - the Khazars, who separated in the 620s into a tribal union already as an independent political unit.

The Khazars, being confederates in the Western Turkic Khaganate, in the middle of the 610th century were in contact with the Persians and even helped the Byzantine emperor Heraclius (r. 641-650) in his campaign against the Persians. But as a result of the invasion of Chinese troops, long intertribal wars and dynastic civil strife in the XNUMXs, the Western Turkic Khaganate disintegrates, and a new state, the Khazar Khaganate, becomes its full political heir.

Origin of the Khazars


The origin of the Khazars is very confusing and still causes heated debate, because it is completely incomprehensible to which linguistic and ethnic Turkic group of peoples they previously belonged. Yes, and the language of the Khazars is as much a mystery as the Khazars themselves, since nothing has survived from it, except for the names and titles of the rulers, which also do not exactly indicate what type of Turkic language (like Oghuz or like Kypchaks) they spoke. Even having already become a state, ethnically it was very diverse, consisting of Turks, Slavs, Iranians, Germans, Finno-Ugric peoples and many other groups.

It is generally accepted that the Khazars, as a people, descended from a huge variety of Turkic tribes, possibly from Central Asia (the theory of Uighur origin), the Urals or even the North Caucasus. They were indeed very ethnically disparate, retaining different skin tones (white and black Khazars) and anthropological types, which would be evident throughout Khazar history.

There is also an opinion that the Savir tribes played an important role in the process of Khazar ethnogenesis.* - originally from the regions of Western Siberia.

Thus, by the Khazars, we must mean a conglomeration of nationalities. Before us is a multi-ethnic and multi-confessional education. The formation of this conglomerate was largely facilitated by the geographical position of Khazaria.

Some descriptions of this people, which have come down to our time, are taken from the annals of an unknown chronicler. Here is what he writes about them:

“The Khazars live in the north of the inhabited lands. Their land is cold and damp. Therefore, their faces are white, their eyes are blue, their hair is more red and curly, they are large in body, and cold in temper. This people is wild."

And here is how the medieval Arab geographer Abu Ishak al-Istakhri describes the Khazars* (approximately 908-951), whose observations of a man, undoubtedly literate, for contemporaries are one of the most important sources on the Khazar theme:

“The Khazars are not like the Turks, they are black-haired, they are divided into two categories, one is called Kara-Khazar, they are so dark that their swarthy looks like black, they are like some kind of category from India. The other category is white, beautiful and perfect in appearance.

And the medieval author Moses Kaghankatvatsi describes them as

"an ugly, vile, broad-faced and eyeless wild crowd, in the form of women with loose hair."

Further strengthening of the Khaganate


Immediately after the fall of the Western Turkic Khaganate and the formation of the Khazarian Khaganate on its ruins, political events begin to develop very quickly!

In 680, after the Khazars completely defeated the state of Great Bulgaria, the newly formed Khazar Khaganate, which entered the historical arena, became the only centralized and strong state between the Black and Caspian Seas and fully established its political influence in this region. In the territories conquered by the Khazars, a kind of ethnic union was established, the principle of which was the expression by the conquered tribes of obedience to the Khazar Khagan and the payment of tribute to him on the terms of protecting them from external enemies, preserving their own form of power and freedom of religion.

So, a new state was formed on a vast territory, which during its heyday at the beginning of the Middle Ages controlled a huge piece of the south of modern Russia: from Astrakhan to Western Ukraine.

The presence of the Khazars in this territory left a significant mark on history. They were intermediaries in the trade of goods between Europe and the Silk Road and possessed such a strong military force that their power was equal to that of the Byzantine Empire and the Arab Caliphate.


Khazar Khaganate

On their southern border, the already strengthened Khazars began to threaten Sisanid Iran, it was not for nothing that the Iranian rulers began to strengthen the fortress of Derbent in the Caspian Sea so that the Khazars would not break into the territory subject to Iran through the Caspian Gates.


Khazar warrior

Continuing to move further south, in Transcaucasia, the Khazars clashed with the Arabs, which led to long (from 650 to 737 years) and bloody wars that were fought with varying success, where the Arabs raided the Khazar cities of Semender* and Belenger* were replaced by the actions of the Khazar army on the territory of Iran (the campaign of 721 and the victory of the Khazars near Ardabil in 730). As a result, this war ended with the complete defeat of the army of the Khazar commander Khazar-Tarkhan and the capture of the headquarters of the Khazar Khagan Al-Bayda by the Arabs under the command of the last Arab caliph from the Umayyad dynasty, Marwan II, in 737.

But the results of this war were contradictory. The Arab Umayyad Caliphate collapsed in 751, thanks to which the Khazar Khaganate quickly recovered from this defeat in the XNUMXth century, and a time of economic recovery began there. On the territory controlled by the Khazars, the Saltov-Mayak archaeological culture arises, which is identified with the material culture of the Khazar Khaganate, and the regions of the Taman Peninsula and Crimea begin to be settled by the settled population of the Don River basin and the Seversky Donets, where minting of coins begins...

In the 834th century (about XNUMX), the Khazars built the city of Sarkel (Belaya Vezha) on the lower Don, and Itil, the capital of the Khazar Khaganate.* - turned into a major trading post.


Reconstruction of a dwelling of the Saltovo-Mayak culture. Divnogorye, Voronezh Region]

Khazar archaeological sites are for us evidence of the formation of urban culture in those places where previously only vast steppes stretched, through which the wind walked. But, unfortunately, these monuments preserved for contemporaries only inscriptions made in Turkic runes, which have not been deciphered so far.


Archaeological excavations in the territories controlled by the Khazars speak of a high and self-sufficient culture.

In the area of ​​the Don and Seversky Donets rivers, there was a large iron smelting center for this region, whose products were tools for crafts and agriculture. During the excavations, complete sets of tools for crafts were found - these are hammers and hammers, anvils, metal shears, tongs, etc. Of the weapons, sabers were found, which were the main weapons Khazar army, spearheads and arrowheads.


Sarkel fortress. Reconstruction

On the territory of modern southeastern Ukraine there was a copper smelting center, the ore of which was brought there from the foothills of the Caucasus. Silver, bronze and copper fittings for horse harness and military belts, as well as jewelry, were products of our own production.

The beginning of decline


After an unprecedented civilizational upsurge, the political situation in the Khazar Khaganate began to change already at the beginning of the XNUMXth century and was characterized by the growth of centrifugal forces in the Black Sea and Don steppes. The first cracks in the state of the Khazars began with some kind of internal conflict, which in our historiography is usually called the civil war in Khazaria, although this name is not entirely acceptable, since in the Khazaria of the XNUMXth century there was no civil society and citizens in our understanding - it was a society with a subservient culture. A more appropriate name for this conflict is internecine war.

The only written source about the civil war in Khazaria is the text of the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus that has survived to this day.* (905–959):

“Let it be known that the so-called Kavars originated from the Khazar clan. It so happened that an uprising broke out among them against their own power, and when an internecine war broke out, this former power nevertheless won the victory. Some of them were killed, others, having fled, came and settled together with the Turks in the land of the Pachinaks, became friends with each other and began to be called Kavars. Therefore, they also taught the Turks the language of the Khazars, and they themselves still speak this language, but they also have another language - the language of the Turks. For the reason that in wars they proved to be the most courageous of the eight clans, and since they led in battle, they were nominated among the first clans. They have one archon (namely, for three kinds of kavars), which exists to this day.


Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus

It follows from the text of Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus that an internecine war took place in the kaganate, in which the Khazar rulers and rebels (whose ethnic and social affiliation is not indicated in the text) acted as opposing sides. Well, the result of this war was the victory of the Khazar government, the destruction of part of the rebels and the flight of the other part to the land of the Pechenegs (Pachinakia), where they settled with the Hungarians.

The decline of Khazaria and its causes


The result of the campaign of Prince Svyatoslav in 965 and the constant raids of the Pechenegs and Guzes in 965-969. there was a complete ruin of the country, the destruction of cities and, as a result, the fall of the kaganate, which at the end of the XNUMXth century had already completely ceased to exist as a state.

But, apparently, the reasons for the collapse of the Khazars were within the Khaganate itself, and not in constant and exhausting wars with neighbors. The inability of the Khazar Khaganate to repel external threats was just a symptom of the crisis of the entire system. After all, the civil war in the Khaganate at the beginning of the XNUMXth century and the wars with the Arab Caliphate were much larger events, but the Khazar state after these upheavals still survived and survived, but the decline of the state began from the end of the XNUMXth century.


Khazar decoration

The Khazars, as a people, went exactly the same historical path as their predecessors, who created their short-lived states in the steppe part of Eurasia - the Huns and Turks, and with the fall of the Khazar Khaganate, all social and ethnic ties collapsed, and the titular people disappeared.

In modern historiography, there are several versions of the reasons for the decline of the Khazar state.

One of them - a version of the economic crisis - was proposed by the famous Soviet and Russian ethnologist and orientalist L. N. Gumilyov (1912–1992). In his opinion, the trade routes that passed through Khazaria, and which were almost the main source of income for this state, were disrupted due to the political crisis in China at the turn of the XNUMXth century, due to which the Great Silk Road was disorganized.


Khazar "Coin of Moses". The coin dates back to around 800.

Another reason for the decline, which, according to L.N. Gumilyov, had an impact on the stable position of Khazaria, is the struggle in the West Frankish kingdom between the Capetian dukes of Ile-de-France and the last of the kings of the Carolingian dynasty.

Well, if we consider the reasons for the collapse of the kaganate from the point of view of the theory of ethnogenesis*, then by the end of the XNUMXth century the Khazars had already completely lost their activity (or, as Gumilyov aptly put it, passionarity*).

The cumulative result of all these processes was the defeat of Khazaria from more active (passionate) neighbors!

The main event that prompted the fall of the Khazar Khaganate was the campaign of Svyatoslav in 965. This military campaign of his is very well described in The Tale of Bygone Years. True, in the "Tale of Bygone Years" there are no direct indications of the destruction of the Khazar state in 965, it only testifies to the defeat of the Khazars and the ruin of their main cities.

This campaign, rather, resembled a classic medieval predatory raid, which could only weaken the country or serve as a significant impetus to the collapse of the state, which was already in a state of serious crisis.

Acceptance of Judaism


Information from a few written sources about the adoption of Judaism by the Khazar elite adds religious and political motives to the discussion about the role of the Khazars in the history of early statehood among the peoples of Eurasia, in particular, among the Eastern Slavs.

In about 740, part of the Khazars converted to Judaism, led by the commander Bulan, who later became king (bek), and at first Bulan and his entourage kept their conversion to Judaism secret, hiding it even from their people.

Interestingly, the legend about the choice of faith among the Khazars was about the same as that of the Kyiv prince Vladimir, after almost a century and a half. Envoys from the Byzantine Empire and the Arab Caliphate actively persuaded the Khazar ruler to their faith. But already at the end of the XNUMXth - beginning of the XNUMXth centuries, one of his descendants, King Obadiah, declared Judaism the state religion of Khazaria.

At the same time, the conversion of a powerful people to Judaism is not at all an ordinary event, so there was every reason to believe that this event should have caused a wave of responses in various written sources of that period. However, in the case of the Khazars, such evidence is practically non-existent.

Even in terms of the scale of treatment, there are discrepancies among specialists. Some believe that only the royal family and the surrounding part of the higher nobility converted to Judaism. Others, in particular Israeli historians, insist on the widespread dissemination of this religion among all the Khazars, as well as on its penetration into the environment of the peoples subordinate to the Khazars.

In more recent times, the history of the conversion of the Khazars to Judaism has long served as a source of pride for the Jews and an argument in favor of the Jewish religion. But the texts that have come down to us, testifying to the conversion of the Khazars to Judaism, are recognized as controversial, as well as the absence of any archaeological or other material evidence indicating a mass conversion of the people, which generally casts doubt on both the scale and the very historicity of this fact...

Some historians studying this unique state believe that the conversion of Khazaria to Judaism demonstrated to many neighbors its spiritual independence from neighboring Byzantium and the Arab Caliphate.

But among researchers there is another, completely opposite opinion: experts believe that Judaism, which allegedly existed in the Khazar Khaganate, is nothing more than an ordinary medieval hoax coming from a Jew from Cordoba, an Andalusian scientist and personal physician who ruled there in the XNUMXth century caliph.

Hasdai ben Shapruta wrote a letter in Hebrew addressed to Tsar Joseph, who was then ruling in Khazaria, handed it over with the Radanite merchants* and received a response letter from Joseph, written in Hebrew, where the ruler told him in detail about the history and geography of his country and how his ancestors converted to Judaism, about his relations with powerful neighbors - Byzantium, the Arab Caliphate and the Rus. Here is what he reports:

“I tell you that I live by a river named Itil*. Numerous peoples are located along this river in villages and cities, some in open areas, and others in walled cities ... They all serve me and pay tribute. From there, the border turns on the way to Huverezm (Khorezm). All who live on the shores of this sea for one month's journey, all pay tribute to me. And on the south side - Samandar at the end of the country ... and it is located on the seashore. From there the border turns towards the mountains.

Further, the Khazar king lists the tribes subject to him:

“They are as numerous as sand. They all serve me and pay tribute to me. Their location and their place of residence extends for four months of travel. Know and understand that I live at the mouth of the river with the help of the Almighty. I guard the mouth of the river and do not let the Rus ... go to the Ismailians and in the same way their enemies (Ismailians) on land come to the Gates. I am at war with them. If I had left them alone for one hour, they would have destroyed the entire country of the Ismailis as far as Baghdad...
You also asked me about my place of residence. Know that I live by this river, with the help of the Almighty, and there are three cities on it. In one lives the queen; this city where I was born. He is great, has 50 to 50 farsakhs* in length (and width). Jews, Christians and Ismailis live in the second city... It is of medium size, has a length and width of 8 by 8 farsakhs. In the third city I myself live, my princes, servants and servants and butlers close to me. It is located in the form of a circle, has a length and width of 3 by 3 farsakhs. A river flows between these walls. This is my stay until winter."


Correspondence published in Russian

Many historians doubted the authenticity of the letter of the Khazar king.

The role and significance of the Khazar state


Khazaria played a significant geopolitical role in the history of the Eastern European countries - it was a barrier that covered them from the invasion of the Arabs (as Poitiers defended the Franks in his time) and stopped further Arab expansion into Europe.

Here is what A. Koestler writes in his book “The Thirteenth Tribe”:

“The lands of the Khazars ... lay in the path of the natural advancement of the Arabs. In a matter of years after the death of Mohammed (632), the armies of the Caliphate, breaking through to the north and destroying two empires, reached the great mountain barrier - the Caucasus Mountains. Once this barrier was overcome, the path to Eastern Europe would open before them. But just at the Caucasian border, the Arabs encountered an organized military force that prevented them from continuing their conquest in this direction. The wars of the Arabs and the Khazars, which lasted for more than a century, but are now almost unknown, were of great historical significance. The victorious Muslims were stopped by the forces of the Khazar kingdom...
There can hardly be any doubt that if it were not for the Khazars, who inhabited the regions north of the Caucasus, then Byzantium, the stronghold of European civilization in the east, would have been outflanked by the Arabs, and then the history of Christianity and Islam would be very different from what we know today.

some memory


The Khazar heritage is preserved today in sayings and proverbs in the Caucasus. Here is what the Kumyks say about the wealth of the Khazars: “The Khazars are gone - the treasury of Kumykia is gone (dried out). That I have a Khazar treasury or something?

It is considered bad luck for us to give knives. And the Khazars never took tribute from the tribes with swords and daggers, and weapons in general. They just bought it.

In Russian folk tales, the protagonist is Kazarin, who came from the "Land of the Zhidovinskaya", with whom Russian heroes are fighting. There are suggestions that Koschey, who kidnaps the princess, is the name of Khazarin.

Vladimir Svyatoslavich, like his son Yaroslav the Wise, was called the title of kagan in the "Sermon on Law and Grace".

Afterword


In this article, I tried to trace the history of the Khazars and the Khazar Khaganate from the beginning to its end, using the few existing sources. I deliberately did not pay much attention to the Byzantine-Khazar and Russian-Khazar relations.

He did not write about the role of the Khazars in Crimean affairs, he did not pay attention at all to the mission of the Enlightener of the Slavs Constantine (Cyril) to Khazaria (860) and his dispute with the Muslim imam and the Jewish rabbi, which took place in the presence of the Khazar kagan himself.

There is nothing about Bulan - the ancestor of the dynasty of the Khazar rulers and his successor Obadiah - the reformer of the Khazar state. There is nothing about the descendants of the Khazars - Crimean Karaites, Chuvashs and, possibly, Dagestan Tats. I did not mention the civil war in Khazaria associated with the adoption of Judaism, nor did I describe in more detail the process of converting the Khazars to a new faith.

He did not pay any attention to the campaigns of the Rus in the Caspian Sea. Almost nothing has been written about the Saltov-Mayak culture, which, in all likelihood, coincides with the political borders of the Khazar state.

Why is that? But because for a more detailed description of the historical episodes that I did not include in the story, I would need not an article, but a whole book ...

Notes


*Abu Ishaq al-Istakhri (ca. 908–951). Arabic geographer. Traveled around Iran, visited a number of countries in Central, South and West Asia. He wrote the "Book of Ways and Countries", which is a collection of geographical maps with explanatory notes. His work influenced the writings of many Arab and Persian geographers.

*Savirs. Nomadic tribes, at the beginning of the VI century, came to the North Caucasus, where they briefly became the leading military force. In the middle of the XNUMXth century, they were defeated by the Avars and defeated by Sasanian Iran. Later, the Savirs were known in the Middle Volga region, where they joined the Volga Bulgars. Orientalist and ethnographer L. N. Gumilyov believed that the descendants of the Savirs, who became glorified, became northerners. It is believed that the name of Siberia came from the name of the Savirs.

*Radanites - itinerant Jewish merchants who during the early Middle Ages controlled trade links between the Islamic East and Christian Europe along the Silk Road and other trade routes, creating the first permanent trading network in history, stretching from China and India to Western Europe. Historians do not rule out that it was the Radanites who brought the Jewish faith to Khazaria.

*Passionarity - an overabundance of human energy, for the sake of some lofty goals. Passionarity generates in a person an irresistible inner desire for vigorous activity aimed at a sharp change in his life and his environment. These changes are more valuable for the passionary than his own life. At the same time, passionate activity can easily give rise to both feats and crimes.

*Passionary theory of ethnogenesis - a certain historical process of interaction of ethnic groups with the landscape, as well as with other ethnic groups. The theory was put forward by Lev Gumilyov (1912-1992), but did not meet with the understanding and support of scientists either in the USSR or abroad.

*Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (905-959) - emperor of Byzantium from the Macedonian dynasty (sometimes this dynasty is called Armenian). Known as one of the most educated people of his era, he was the author of many works, in particular, he describes the visit (in 957) of Princess Olga to Constantinople and her baptism. In his book "On the Management of the Empire" (circa 950), he outlines the economic and political structure of Rus'. He was poisoned by his son Roman II the Younger.

*Marvan II (Marvan the Deaf) (688-750) - the last, fourteenth, Arab caliph from the Umayyad dynasty, who ruled in Damascus.

*farsakh (farsang) - a measure of length of ancient Persian origin. The approximate distance that the caravan travels before the next rest. Or the distance that can be walked in an hour. 1 farsang roughly corresponds to Western European 1 league.

*Semender. The identification of this city is controversial.
Today, the role of Semender is claimed by the village of Tarki, located not far from Makhachkala, but, perhaps, according to archaeologists, this city was located elsewhere.

*Belenger. Another Caspian city of the Khazars. Identification is also controversial. According to some scholars, this city may have stood on the site known today as the Verkhnechiryurt settlement (Kizilyurt district of Dagestan). It was flooded during the construction of the Sulak hydroelectric power station.

*Itil (river) - the Turkic name of the Volga.

*Itil (city) - the capital of the Khazar Khaganate in the middle of the VIII - X centuries. According to medieval sources, it was located in the Volga delta, but archaeological searches for Itil have not yet yielded results, and its exact location remains unknown. A possible candidate for the role of Itil is the Samosdelskoye settlement near the village of Samosdelka.

*«A Word on Law and Grace”- the speech of the Kyiv Metropolitan Hilarion in the middle of the XNUMXth century, where he glorifies the baptist of Rus', Prince Vladimir Svyatoslavich and his son Yaroslav the Wise. The Lay provides a theological understanding of the place of the Russian Church in the history of the Divine economy of salvation. It is one of the oldest monuments of ancient Russian literature.

What to read:
1. L. N. Gumilyov "Discovery of Khazaria"
2. M. I. Artamonov "History of the Khazars"
3. S. A. Pletneva "Khazars"
4. A. Koestler "The Thirteenth Tribe"
5. D. Dunlop “History of the Khazar-Jews. Religion of the higher clans"
6. A. P. Novoseltsev "The Khazar state and its role in the history of Eastern Europe and the Caucasus"
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  1. +15
    2 February 2023 05: 43
    . Khazar warrior

    He is with sidelocks laughing laughing laughing
    1. +4
      2 February 2023 19: 58
      Something from the series: the Turks crawled ashore before the Bandera, and when they appeared from the water, they forced them to dig the Black Sea and pour the Carpathian mountains.
      According to Gumilyov, the Volga region spoke Turkic only in the XNUMXth century under the Polovtsians, not even under the Pechenegs. Moreover, the first Turkic Khaganate could not exert such an influence in its short-term throw to the west of the northern fore-Caucasus to destroy the Bosporan kingdom. What was the undoubted success of diplomacy fought with the kingdom of Byzantium. When the Turks appeared in the Caucasus, the Khazars were already living there.
      The origin of the Turks is from the Western Mongols of the Ashina clan = 6th century. It so happened that Turkic is now spoken by peoples who are not Mongols. The Turks belong to the Altaic language family. But it is wrong to attribute all who in this language family to the Turks. And it turns out, like Professor Preobrazhensky: it is not clear who stood on whom.
      The passages of the author look funny: the Khazars of an unknown Turkic tribe, the Khazar monuments with inscriptions in runes, not deciphered, but definitely in the Turkic language. It would be funny if it weren't even more sad. Alas for the victims of the USE and the Bologna system. The results let you know.
      It's funny that the much later Mongol empire of Genghis Khan did not have its own written language, no hieroglyphs, no cuneiform, no runes. They used Uighur and even Russian writing. They had something with features and cuts, but this belongs to a later period than the Khazars and was deciphered by Russian scientists. It turns out that what is not deciphered is not in Turkic?
      1. 0
        22 February 2023 23: 22
        Quote: Nikolay S.
        Something from the series: the Turks crawled ashore before the Bandera, and when they appeared from the water, they forced them to dig the Black Sea and pour the Carpathian mountains.
        According to Gumilyov, the Volga region spoke Turkic only in the XNUMXth century under the Polovtsians, not even under the Pechenegs. Moreover, the first Turkic Khaganate could not exert such an influence in its short-term throw to the west of the northern fore-Caucasus to destroy the Bosporan kingdom. What was the undoubted success of diplomacy fought with the kingdom of Byzantium. When the Turks appeared in the Caucasus, the Khazars were already living there.
        The origin of the Turks is from the Western Mongols of the Ashina clan = 6th century.

        Even about the origin of the ethnonym (name) of the Turks, there are countless versions, and there is nothing to say about the origins of the peoples who speak the languages ​​of the Turkic group. This is by no means a single ancient people. This is a historical Asian cauldron where the devil will break his leg. The truth of life is that Russians in life are not interested in anything, and especially in history, and therefore "non-Russians" write the history of them and their neighbors for them. And they have written since the 18th century such that even the ancient chronicles have been rewritten a hundred times and now exist on quite modern snow-white paper and contradict each other. I don’t want to seem like a homegrown nationalist or some kind of dense chauvinist, but how many of our professors of history or archeology have you seen not Jews, Germans, Armenians, Georgians, but Russians? But history is perhaps one of the most imprecise sciences. So why, while the Slavs wallow in ditches, clean each other's faces in brothels, or sell their homeland and each other for pennies, non-Russians will look for them in ancient history? Do they need it? So it is with neighboring peoples. By the way, the Turks consider themselves to be pure Turks. Explain to them that the Turks are the Mongols laughing . Bulgarians generally believe that the Turks, and the empire of Genghis Khan, and the Slavs descended from the Bulgars, and at the same time they also founded Kyiv, and I'm not kidding. Each flawed country is trying to make it ancient and glorify its origin, and only Russia is doing the opposite.
  2. +21
    2 February 2023 06: 09
    This campaign, rather, resembled a classic medieval robbery raid.
    Such a not frail raid "for zipuns", as a result of which the Tmutarakan principality was formed, on the territory of the Taman and Crimean peninsulas, Sarkel, came under the rule of Rus' and began to be called in Russian - Belaya Vezha. This fortress controlled the Volgodonsk crossing, between the Volga and the Don. The capital of Khazaria, Itil, in the lower reaches of the Volga, to dust, simply ceased to exist. Life-supporting centers were either destroyed or came under the rule of Russian princes. Svyatoslav went "for bread" to Khazaria, and went so that the state was not subject to restoration. Svyatoslav, probably on the ruins of Itil, wrote: "I am satisfied with the ruins of Khazaria."
    1. -7
      2 February 2023 06: 31
      probably on the ruins of Itil he wrote: "I am satisfied with the ruins of Khazaria."
      Do you think Svyatoslav could write?
      1. +12
        2 February 2023 06: 38
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Do you think Svyatoslav could write?

        Perhaps he could put a cross? wink
        1. +1
          2 February 2023 06: 41
          Perhaps he could put a cross?
          Rather draw a tamga.
          1. +6
            2 February 2023 07: 50
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Rather draw a tamga

            He hardly knew what it was.
            He did not have a steppe upbringing ... wink
            1. +2
              2 February 2023 08: 04
              He did not have a steppe upbringing ...
              And you can’t tell by the look, a nomad by a nomad:

              )))
              1. +4
                2 February 2023 08: 09
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                And you can’t tell by the look, a nomad by a nomad:

                Looks like a Mongol to a Swede ... wink
            2. +3
              2 February 2023 08: 22
              Quote: Luminman
              He did not have a steppe upbringing ...

              I wonder how you would characterize his upbringing. Forest? Maritime? River? smile
              Okay, joke. smile
              But about the tamga, or personal sign - Svyatoslav still had it and was a kind of bident. In my article (you can see it in the profile) there is an image of a seal, reliably compared specifically with Svyatoslav.
              So on the ruins of Sarkel, he could well draw something similar. smile
              1. +5
                2 February 2023 08: 33
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                I wonder how you would characterize his upbringing. Forest? Maritime? River?

                And what kind of upbringing can a descendant of a glorified Varangian have? It is quite obvious that it is not the steppe ... wink

                Quote: Trilobite Master
                But about the tamga, or personal sign - Svyatoslav still had it

                I don’t feel like climbing through encyclopedias, but the tamga, I write from memory, is something from the steppe nomads, which has nothing to do with either the Slavs or the Varangians ...

                Quote: Trilobite Master
                In my article (you can see it in the profile) there is an image of a seal, reliably compared specifically with Svyatoslav

                Yes, I read...
                1. +4
                  2 February 2023 08: 48
                  Tamga, spot, banner - this does not change the essence of the matter.
                  Svyatoslav put a spot, the Khazars came, they saw: "Oh, the tamga is standing ..." smile
                  As for education, Svyatoslav was born in Kyiv on the border of the forest and steppe zones, and was brought up there. He probably spent some time in Novgorod, but there is no exact information. From the descriptions of his campaigns, we can conclude that he loved horses more than ships. So I would not make such categorical statements. Moreover, his son already bore (or tried to bear) the title of khakan.
                  1. +4
                    2 February 2023 08: 55
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    As for education, Svyatoslav was born in Kyiv on the border of the forest and steppe zones, and was brought up there.

                    He was brought up by his father Ingvar (Igor) and mother Helga (Olga). What kind of upbringing was there - obviously ... wink
                    1. +7
                      2 February 2023 09: 26
                      The Scandinavian origin of Svyatoslav is one. And the Slavic environment in which he grew up is completely different. From the age of four on a horse, and not on the deck of a longship.
                      1. +4
                        2 February 2023 09: 44
                        Perhaps. However, the squad was still Varangian ...
                      2. +6
                        2 February 2023 10: 10
                        But the name he received is already Slavic. smile
                        I'm not asserting anything, mind you. I'm just talking about the excessive categoricalness of your judgment. In the upbringing of Svyatoslav, "steppe motives" could well be not so much present, but they could also be very significant. Simply due to the fact that he was surrounded by the appropriate environment. A piece of meat under the saddle already says a lot.
                      3. +2
                        2 February 2023 11: 57
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        But the name he received is already Slavic

                        Sveneld. There is also a version...

                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        A piece of meat under the saddle already says a lot

                        That's exactly what he didn't have. Even the Huns forgot about this when they found themselves within the borders of Rome ...
                      4. 0
                        2 February 2023 13: 01
                        Sveneld, by the way, is a purely Scandinavian name.
                        About meat and sleep with a saddle under your head, maybe - maybe! - Greek tales. But even the fact that the Greeks in relation to Svyatoslav drew parallels with Attila speaks volumes. Prior to this, the Greeks were repeatedly raided, including by Oleg, Igor, but only Svyatoslav was honored with such flattering comparisons.
                      5. +2
                        2 February 2023 13: 49
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Sveneld, by the way, is a purely Scandinavian name

                        Who do you think he was? wink

                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        the Greeks in relation to Svyatoslav drew parallels precisely with Attila

                        Captured Bulgaria, pretty spoiled the nerves of Byzantium. This is not for everyone...
                      6. +1
                        5 February 2023 10: 53
                        The Kazakhs used this method already in the 20th century.
                      7. +6
                        2 February 2023 12: 54
                        The question is very vague, I will insert my thoughts:
                        1. The Byzantines who did not know how to fight in the ranks were hired. The Vikings themselves did not become famous in serious wars on the plains of Eurasia. That is, there was a culture of raids, robberies, internecine skirmishes, but opponents of the level of Byzantium or the Caliphate were too tough for them.
                        2. Russian princes took a squad. Usually all the warriors fit at the same table with the prince. The squad was cavalry. This is a Sarmatian tradition, I believe.
                        Traditions are passed on with great difficulty, and "equestrian Viking" is something like "proletarian on horseback" during the Civil War, the Cossacks laughed at such people.
                        3. I’m not sure that this was actually the case, but the large Russian militia, as Russian textbooks on military affairs draw it to us, was a phalanx in the center (forehead) of the regiment of the right and left hands - cavalry, a number of archers, skirmishers in front and ambush regiment in reserve.
                        The ability to build in phalanx is a very complex art, and cannot be copied by mere imitation. This is a tradition.
                        I believe this is a Macedonian tradition.
                        The only Russian martial art of wall-to-wall combat and its derivatives in the form of children's games "boyars - young", just put the skill to keep their line and break through the opponent's line.
                      8. +3
                        2 February 2023 14: 22
                        The Vikings themselves did not become famous in serious wars on the plains of Eurasia.
                        Yes, yes, they didn’t take Paris a little, but it’s so final, they didn’t become famous ...
                    2. +3
                      2 February 2023 11: 43
                      Quote: Luminman
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      As for education, Svyatoslav was born in Kyiv on the border of the forest and steppe zones, and was brought up there.

                      He was brought up by his father Ingvar (Igor) and mother Helga (Olga). What kind of upbringing was there - obviously ... wink

                      Svyatoslav lost his father at the age of 2-3 years. At the age of three (according to PVL) he participated in a campaign against the Drevlyans. He threw a children's spear at the beginning of the assault on Iskorestnya - "the spear flew between the ears of the prince's horse and fell at his feet." The name of the prince's teacher, Asmud, has also been preserved. Studying the events of those years, it should be noted that Svyatoslav and his retinue could move on horseback and on ships, but they fought mainly on foot. It is not possible to isolate tactics, Russian or Scandinavian from available sources, since it was built on the more ancient Gothic (Germanic) military culture.
                      Regarding the literacy of Svyatoslav, the author of the PVL noted that the prince warned the enemy by sending him a message “I’m going to you!” Did he write himself - the question? Although his children were not literate, so I'm more inclined to the version - he knew how.
                      1. +4
                        2 February 2023 13: 11
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        Studying the events of those years, it should be noted that Svyatoslav and his retinue could move on horseback and on ships, but fought mainly on foot.

                        In the battle near Dorostol, which is described in the most detail, it is obvious that Svyatoslav's army was building a "Scandinavian" wall of shields, which the Greeks tried to break through with heavy cavalry attacks. But, with regard to movement in campaigns, then, even simply based on the routes, we can say that the main part of the distances the army of Svyatoslav overcame on land. If I remember correctly, even on the march down the Volga (to the Khazars), only part of the army went on ships.
                        My opinion - they walked, mostly on horseback, fought on foot. This tradition, by the way, was still preserved in Rus' for a long time, in particular, the Novgorodians fought in exactly the same order on Zhdan-gora, on Lipitsa and even under Yaroslav Vsevolodovich during the reflection of the Lithuanian raid in 1235, in my opinion, in the battle on the river Kunya.
                      2. +3
                        2 February 2023 14: 32
                        but the large Russian militia, as Russian textbooks on military affairs draw it to us, was a phalanx

                        Michael, what was the name of the phalanx in Old Slavonic? laughing wassat drinks
                      3. +4
                        2 February 2023 15: 02
                        [Center]

                        Actually Alex. I believe it was called a regiment.
                      4. +1
                        6 February 2023 19: 15
                        What was the name of the phalanx in Old Slavonic?
                        According to the Military Encyclopedia of I.D. Sytin, such a formation was called in Old Slavonic - Ramena or two shoulders. Where do linguo-roots take two military articles - build (close) and oysya (disperse).
                        PS. It is also curious that the ancient Russians called the founders of the phalanx Romans. The same thing is visible - although this is purely my personal assumption.
                    3. +3
                      2 February 2023 14: 09
                      He was brought up by his father Ingvar (Igor) and mother Helga (Olga). What kind of upbringing was there - obviously ...
                      On campaigns, he did not carry carts or cauldrons with him, he did not cook meat, but, thinly slicing horse meat, or animal meat, or beef and roasting it on coals, he ate it like that; he didn’t have a tent, but slept, spreading a sweatshirt with a saddle in his head (c) Daddy’s and mommy’s upbringing .. smile
          2. +5
            2 February 2023 10: 47
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Perhaps he could put a cross?
            Rather draw a tamga.

            He scribbled an indecent word .... laughing
            1. +6
              2 February 2023 11: 52
              Quote: Mihaylov
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              Perhaps he could put a cross?
              Rather draw a tamga.

              He scribbled an indecent word .... laughing

              The object of cultural heritage in the form of the Hagia Sophia, where the first "graffiti fans" in Rus' trained, will be built by his son. Picket fences or wicker vines as an application of skills and expression of one's thoughts are not convenient enough! So I had to be perverted, like Oleg - who nailed his shield to the gates of Constantinople!
              1. +2
                2 February 2023 14: 27
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                An object of cultural heritage in the form of the Hagia Sophia, where the first "graffiti fans" in Rus' trained

                Here, teach people to write and read, and first of all they will go and write down everything they find ..... laughing
      2. +3
        2 February 2023 09: 46
        probably on the ruins of Itil he wrote: "I am satisfied with the ruins of Khazaria."

        Heh, heh...

        Compare the Khazar tamga (generic family sign, seal) and the Ukrainian trident))))
        1. +11
          2 February 2023 10: 13
          At the time of Rurik there were no coats of arms. They appeared in Europe after at least two hundred years. And the coat of arms of Staraya Ladoga is in the XNUMXst century in general.
        2. 0
          3 February 2023 00: 00
          What you have designated as "Khazar tamga" is actually a heraldic pendant from Novgorod.
      3. +9
        2 February 2023 11: 59
        But what do you think, before Cyril and Methodius, the Slavs did not have letters? So these monks only adapted one of the Slavic languages ​​​​for scripture, and this was for a long time the church language. Or do you think that the Eastern Slavs, unlike the Western ones, did not have a letter?
        1. 0
          2 February 2023 12: 30
          Do you not catch the difference between writing and literacy of a single person?
          1. +4
            2 February 2023 13: 04
            There is a difference, but there is also a relationship. I cannot consider, for example, the same Obodrites as less developed than the neighboring Germanic tribes. Moreover, the linguistic roots are common.
        2. -1
          2 February 2023 13: 22
          Quote from shikin
          But what do you think, before Cyril and Methodius, the Slavs did not have letters?

          You can think anything. But the ancestors did not leave us written monuments, even in the form of epitaphs or inscriptions about belonging on any objects before Cyril and Methodius. There are none. Nothing to read. Is it possible under such circumstances to speak, and confidently, as some do, about the presence of writing? I think not.
          And arguments such as "there was a written language because it could not have been" and "whoever thinks otherwise is a vile Russophobe" have no effect on normal people.
          1. +7
            2 February 2023 14: 54
            Regarding - they did not leave - the question is open. Not found - so more precisely. Yes, and about the ancestors - also a lot of questions. And it is impossible to speak with confidence about the presence of writing. Just like her absence. And in my opinion, it seems to me wrong to represent some kindred tribes (albeit far, but related) less developed than others.
            Yes, the question of kinship is also debatable, but the same Slavic (and Proto-Slavic) tribes and Germanic (and Proto-Germanic) lived side by side and mixed up for a very long time and could not be at a different level of development.
            1. +4
              2 February 2023 15: 26
              However, they did not leave - most likely, it also took place. The struggle of the Christian church against paganism was carried on for a long time and a lot of "pagan" things were destroyed. What can we say, if in Italy "pagan" statues were smashed and lime was prepared from them after firing for plastering temples.
            2. +2
              2 February 2023 17: 39
              No evidence of writing - no writing. This is the scientific and only correct approach. There will be evidence - we will investigate, you see, and some views can be revised.
              Thus, as you do it, you can justify any nonsense. We invent and approve any unsubstantiated nonsense, and since there is no evidence, then this nonsense cannot be refuted.
              Example.
              Thesis. A huge invisible ass flies over the planet.
              Arguments: if the ass does not fly, where does the wind come from?
              You say that the wind is a consequence of the difference in atmospheric pressure on the surface of the planet? Perhaps. Or maybe because the ass is flying. Is it possible?
              So it is with Slavic writing. smile
              Quote from shikin
              It seems to me wrong to represent some kindred tribes (albeit far, but related) less developed than others.

              You see, the fact is that the tribes that came to the territory of the Roman Empire received the best starting positions for development, respectively, and developed faster, since they absorbed the legacy of the empire directly. The tribes that settled along the borders of the Byzantine Empire, such as the Bulgarians, for example, developed a little more slowly, but faster than those that settled far from the centers of civilization. Everything is simple.
              1. +4
                2 February 2023 17: 48
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Example.
                Thesis. A huge invisible ass flies over the planet.
                Arguments: if the ass does not fly, where does the wind come from?

                I like the example more: that thunder rumbles, because Elijah the Prophet rides across the sky in an iron chariot. drinks
                1. +2
                  2 February 2023 18: 39
                  Also an option. I just wanted to come up with something fresher. Although, what freshness can come from an ass?... feel
                  1. +3
                    2 February 2023 19: 26
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Although, what freshness can come from an ass?.

                    Sudden?! wassat
              2. +1
                3 February 2023 00: 23
                Quote: Trilobite Master

                You see, the fact is that the tribes that came to the territory of the Roman Empire received the best starting positions for development, respectively, and developed faster, since they absorbed the legacy of the empire directly. The tribes that settled along the borders of the Byzantine Empire, such as the Bulgarians, for example, developed a little more slowly, but faster than those that settled far from the centers of civilization. Everything is simple.
                Reverse example...
                Residents of the former Ukrainian SSR found themselves on the "ruins of the USSR empire" - degraded. For some reason, the inhabitants of Ukraine did not absorb the "legacy of the USSR" (with the exception of a few, such as Akhmetov, Kolomoisky ...) - on the contrary, they rejected the "legacy of the empire" from themselves.
                You can start arguing about the direct inhabitants of Europe - Franks, Lombards, Burgundians, Vandals ... - but immediately after the fall of the Roman Empire, Dark Ages Middle Ages since 5th century, which ended renaissance in the 16th century.
      4. 0
        2 February 2023 13: 56
        Do you think Svyatoslav could write?
        Signed with Slavic runes .. laughing I think that in vain, I didn’t put a smiley at the end of the comment, so that the last sentence would not be taken too seriously ..
      5. 0
        3 February 2023 15: 33
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        It is generally accepted that

        IZBORNIK SVYATOSLAV 1073, the second most ancient surviving precisely dated OE. manuscript (after the Ostromir Gospel 1056–57). The first mention of Svyatoslav in a synchronous historical document contained in the Russian-Byzantine treaty of Prince Igor of 944 [ . The fact that the Glagolitic alphabet appeared much earlier than the Cyrillic alphabet is beyond doubt. However, the date of its occurrence has not been precisely determined. According to some sources, it may be III-V centuries. eka.
        The princes of Ancient Rus' from the Rurik dynasty met with the Cyrillic alphabet almost 100 years before baptism. For example, treaties with Byzantium at the beginning of the 30th century were written down by her. The alphabet could also be used by the Christian minority, which existed in the middle of the 957th century, when, for example, Princess Olga was baptized. This happened XNUMX years before the baptism, in XNUMX.

      6. -1
        5 February 2023 23: 33
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        on the ruins of Itil he wrote: "The ruins of Khazaria, satisfied"


        Khazars, these are the nomads who attacked Russia for hundreds of years, drove people into captivity and constantly robbed, as the impudent Saks are now?
      7. 0
        23 February 2023 00: 38
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        probably on the ruins of Itil he wrote: "I am satisfied with the ruins of Khazaria."
        Do you think Svyatoslav could write?

        According to our textbooks, the Rurikoviches were Scandinavians, but for some reason they were illiterate. Apparently only such agreed to rule the Eastern Slavs. laughing
    2. +2
      2 February 2023 06: 37
      Quote: parusnik
      Svyatoslav, probably wrote on the ruins of Itil

      And there weren't too many ruins. There is even a version that Khazaria lasted until the Mongol invasion.
      1. +2
        2 February 2023 06: 44
        And there weren't too many ruins. There is even a version that Khazaria lasted until the Mongol invasion.
        Yes, kanesh, who argues, it wasn’t like that, Tmutarakan, Korchev, right up to the Mongol invasion, together with Belaya Vezha, were part of the Khazar Khaganate .. Yes, and Svyatoslav, so ... pinched .. what is already there .. "Bullshit ...." (c) everything that is written about it .. smile
        1. +5
          2 February 2023 07: 45
          Quote: parusnik
          before the Mongol invasion, together with the Belaya Vezha, the Khazar Khaganate included

          Belaya Vezha or Sarkel is currently at the bottom of the Tsimlyansk reservoir. This is just some kind of fortress, which the archaeologist and historian Artamonov suggested calling Belaya Vezha. I emphasize - proposed
          1. +2
            2 February 2023 14: 16
            It's just some kind of fortress
            And where, then, did Vladimir Monomakh place a garrison from the Allied Torks and Pechenegs? Not in Belaya Vezha?.. Or is it some other fortress already..? Yes .. Yes .. he could not place a garrison in the Khazar Khaganate ..
      2. +1
        2 February 2023 06: 44
        There is even a version that Khazaria lasted until the Mongol invasion.
        Naturally! After all, we defeated the Pechenegs and Polovtsians, but not a word was said about the Khazars.)))
        1. +1
          2 February 2023 07: 38
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          We defeated the Pechenegs and Polovtsy, but not a word was said about the Khazars.)))

          The Pechenegs were defeated by the Polovtsy, and the Polovtsy by the Mongols. And the Mongols became Turkicized .. wink
          1. 0
            2 February 2023 21: 23
            Thank you for the article!
            From myself I will note the following. The Khazar Khaganate and the Khazars are not the same thing.
            Svyatoslav inflicted a mortal blow on the Khazar Kaganate, but the agony was reflected in the chronicles of the Byzantine chroniclers for almost a century. Alas, I can’t name the sources from memory, I hope for Eduard Vashchenko - Byzantium is his topic.
            The Khazars themselves, as a people, had their enclaves in the Crimea, the foothills of the Caucasus and in the north of the Caspian. The first two diasporas were already assimilated by the Mongols.
            Tmutarakan is only one of the fragments of the Khazar Khaganate. More significant; Volga Bulgars (Tatars) and Bashkirs still exist today.
        2. +3
          2 February 2023 12: 01
          After all, we defeated the Pechenegs and Polovtsy, but not a word was said about the Khazars.
          Somehow the most important historian of the country did not say this smile There was no talk about the Khazars .. smile
        3. +5
          2 February 2023 13: 00
          This means that the Karaites, who were considered the descendants of the Khazars, remained in the Crimea, and Caucasian Jews in the Caucasus. Both those and others were strong enough before the Mongol invasion, and even now they remain, but already as a cultural and ethnic phenomenon.
  3. +1
    2 February 2023 06: 38
    Oh, I can smell "be cruel" in the comments ...)))
    However, I note that a colleague of "Luminman" knows how to surprise!
    1. +1
      2 February 2023 14: 19
      Oh, I can smell "be brutal"
      And why should it be ..? The author, in the article, indicated that books should be read, we share what we read, and only .. Many people know how to read smile
  4. +7
    2 February 2023 06: 42
    Good afternoon, now I am writing a book about the history of the Slavs. The key time point is the year 626, when the Avars and Slavs stormed Constantinople, Emperor Heraclius, in alliance with the Khazars, took Tbilisi, and the Emperor of the Tang Dynasty Li Shimin sent a mission with the monk Xuanzang along the Silk Road.

    In all likelihood, the story of the "tribute with swords" also refers to this period.
    In my opinion, this is a very important moment in the history of Rus', and it does not strongly coincide with the opinion accepted in history about the poverty of the Slavs. In the lungs, only the people, the army, could collect "a sword from the smoke".

    This is my second book on the history of the Slavs, the first deals with the ancient ancestors of the Slavs, the time of the wars of Mithridates and Pompey.
    But the style of presentation is not scientific, it is rather a historical thriller, interesting for young people to read.

    The new book is called "Forward to the West", it's more of a satirical thriller.
    I posted the first 16 chapters on a special page in the telegram, I post it for free.
    I will be glad to any criticism and advice.
    Link to telegram channel in my profile here.
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. +1
    2 February 2023 07: 53
    Quote from Kuziming
    ancestors of the Slavs, the time of the wars of Mithridates and Pompey

    Boldly...
    1. +4
      2 February 2023 08: 08
      Good afternoon, I accidentally came across this topic when in 2014 I decided to write a historical story about the land of Crimea.
      Collecting materials about Mithridates Eupator, I discovered that he brought an army to Panticapaeum, mainly from Gauls and Dacians. I began to study materials on how the Gauls appeared on the territory of modern Turkey. And so he came up with the topic of the ancient ancestors of the Slavs, posted several videos on this topic on YouTube, then wrote the already mentioned historical story.
      In a nutshell, here are the facts:
      1. The topic of the ancient ancestors of the Slavs is taboo in the scientific community. Of all the participants in the Great Migration of Nations, only the Slavs do not have ancient ancestors.
      2. Slavs plowmen, arable civilization could not spontaneously arise in the forest zone.
      3. In the fifth century AD, the Illyrian, Thracian, Macedonian languages ​​disappear at once, and Slavic tribes appear out of nowhere.
      From the Illyrian language, according to scientific data of the 2010s, 1500 words were preserved, the Thracians left 1000 words, 100 words remained from the Macedonian language. (This refers to the ancient languages ​​​​of these peoples, according to the scientist Hesychius, who lived in Alexandria in the fifth century. All other written sources about these languages ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbare missing.)
      1. kaa
        +2
        3 February 2023 10: 13
        Quote from Kuziming
        2. Slavs plowmen, arable civilization could not spontaneously arise in the forest zone.

        Why couldn't it suddenly? People began to plow when there was not enough to eat from hunting and gathering. The Papuans cultivated plants before the Sumerians, but they didn’t even have a taiga, they had to uproot the jungle.
  7. +3
    2 February 2023 08: 13
    Well, well ... Thanks to the author, it was interesting.
    Some moments were cut by a discrepancy with the way I imagine the Khazars, but this needs to be dealt with, it is quite possible that my ideas will have to be corrected. smile
    In general, I liked it, so the article is a well-deserved plus from me. good
    1. +3
      2 February 2023 08: 18
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Some moments were cut by inconsistency

      What is it?
      1. +4
        2 February 2023 08: 49
        We must first understand how right I am in my doubts. I'll figure it out and let you know if you're interested.
  8. +5
    2 February 2023 08: 16
    Let's put it simply: the Khazars are the same Slavs, or rather people with the R1a1 genotype, like the so-called "Tatar-Mongols". For a thousand years they have been drenching each other and everyone has been making up fairy tales about Asians.
    1. +2
      2 February 2023 08: 21
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      Khazars are the same Slavs, or rather people with the R1a1 genotype

      Khazaria is a polyethnic state. And this means that it is impossible to determine to whom exactly the R1a1 genotype can be attributed ...
    2. 0
      2 February 2023 09: 20
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      Khazars are the same Slavs, or rather people with the R1a1 genotype

      Oh, it's begun... laughing
      Recently, our friend Nikolay, Pane Kohanku sent me a funny song.

      I don't want to say anything, I just remembered. smile
      But in fact, if we are talking about R1a1 as a "Slavic" haplogroup, then the Tajiks are Slavs, and the natives of the Yaroslavl, Vologda, Arkhangelsk, Pskov and Novgorod regions are mostly not. Anatoly Klesov, who can safely consider himself the hero of the above song, singled out some marker of this haplogroup, the distribution center of which is in the Voronezh region, and proclaimed the entire haplogroup "Slavic", and his adherents, not burdened with intelligence, began to repeat this mantra like a Jew prayer.
      At the same time, I note that no genetic studies of the Khazars were carried out. Of course, R1a1 could be present in them and even probably present, due to the multi-ethnicity of this state, but it was unlikely to be predominant.
      Well, I don’t want to talk about the “Tatar-Mongols” at all. laughing
      1. 0
        2 February 2023 09: 33
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        if we are talking about R1a1 as a "Slavic" haplogroup, then the Tajiks are Slavs, and the natives of the Yaroslavl, Vologda, Arkhangelsk, Pskov and Novgorod regions are mostly not

        R1a1 - non-Slavic haplogroup. The arial of its predominance is Eastern Europe, although there is a theory of its origin in Siberia.

        The areas you mentioned are areas with a predominance of the Finno-Ugric haplogroup, in a word, Slavicized Finns

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Anatoly Klesov

        Of course, he is a great dreamer, but when he does not talk about history and ethnography, he has some kind of grain ...

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Well, I don’t want to talk about the "Tatar-Mongols" at all

        What is it? wink
        1. +1
          2 February 2023 10: 38
          Quote: Luminman
          Eastern Europe, although there is a theory of its origin in Siberia.

          Two hearths. Central and Eastern Europe and Central Asia. The maximum distribution is among the Poles and Tajiks.
          Quote: Luminman
          Slavicized Finns

          They themselves quite rightly consider themselves Russian. Who wants to argue - they can fill the face. smile
          Do not confuse genetic origin and ethnicity. These are different, often completely unrelated concepts. Klesov understood this, but for some reason did not consider it necessary to explain to his readers.
          Quote: Luminman
          What is it?

          smile
          Yes ... request
          1. +2
            2 February 2023 11: 53
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            They themselves quite rightly consider themselves Russian

            Right. It is just as correct that the Germans consider themselves Germans, although German blood cannot be found in them even under a microscope. Crucible from the Slavs, Gauls and the remains of Roman civilization. They melted for a long time and, finally, the Germans appeared. By the way, the Lusatian sorbs have not yet completely melted, but also, soon ... wink
    3. +2
      2 February 2023 11: 32
      The Khazars are a conglomerate of tribes that lived in the steppes of the northern Caucasus - the Black Sea region, formerly part of the Turkic Khaganate. They were representatives of a nomadic culture that appropriated the economy.
      The Slavs are an arable people, they are characterized mainly by a producing economy. However, one cannot deny the elements of the appropriating economy - participation in raids, taxation of tribute.
  9. +4
    2 February 2023 08: 17
    Quote from Kuziming
    1. The topic of the ancient ancestors of the Slavs is taboo in the scientific community

    She is not taboo. There are simply no sources about her, except for assumptions and conjectures.
    Quote from Kuziming
    2. Slavs plowmen, arable civilization could not spontaneously arise in the forest zone

    But what about the ancients?
    Quote from Kuziming
    3. In the fifth century AD...
    ... and out of nowhere, tribes of Slavs appear

    Nobody comes out of nowhere. Perhaps they existed under a different name...
    1. +1
      2 February 2023 09: 42
      Quote: Luminman
      Quote from Kuziming

      1. The topic of the ancient ancestors of the Slavs is taboo in the scientific community

      She is not taboo. There are simply no sources about her, except for assumptions and conjectures.
      Quote from Kuziming

      2. Slavs plowmen, arable civilization could not spontaneously arise in the forest zone

      But what about the ancients?
      Quote from Kuziming

      3. In the fifth century AD...
      ... and out of nowhere, tribes of Slavs appear

      Nobody comes out of nowhere. Perhaps they existed under a different name...


      1. The topic is really taboo. Taboo on the discussion, I have already seen from my own experience. This summer, I specially came near Kerch on an archaeological expedition, the reaction of scientists was, in my opinion, inadequate. Three days ago, I was banned without discussion in the TG group dedicated to pan-Slavism, barely mentioned it. It's not a lack of materials, the problem is ideology and politics.
      2. Absolutely correct remark. The Drevlyans are forest nomads, like the Finns, not plowmen, another ethnic group. It’s just that on the Dnieper, the Slavs coexisted with both the Drevlyans and the Sarmatian tribes, even then it was not a mono-ethnic community.
      3. As a result of studying the topic, at this stage, I came to the conclusion that Slovenes are people of a single word, similar languages. These are the descendants of the Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Gauls, defeated by the Romans, who went beyond the Danube. Western civilization perceives their return as an infernal threat.
      1. +2
        2 February 2023 09: 48
        Quote from Kuziming
        Slovenia is ... the descendants of the Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Gauls, defeated by the Romans, who went beyond the Danube

        It smells like a Nobel Prize...
        Haven't applied yet? wink
    2. +3
      2 February 2023 10: 53
      Quote: Luminman
      There are simply no sources about her, except for assumptions and conjectures.

      archaeological cultures hi
      1. +3
        2 February 2023 11: 00
        Well, at least you don’t participate in this semi-literate coven.
        No sources, huh
        https://inslav.ru/publication/svod-drevneyshih-pismennyh-izvestiy-o-slavyanah-m-1994-t-i-i-vi-vv-1995-t-ii-vii-ix-vv
        1. +2
          2 February 2023 11: 10
          Quote: Engineer
          Well, at least you don’t participate in this semi-literate coven.
          No sources, huh

          Maybe I misunderstood, but it was about ancient sources about the Slavs?
          1. +4
            2 February 2023 11: 13
            Couldn't be more antique
            Pliny (F. V. Shelov-Kovedyaev)
            Tacitus (F. V. Shelov-Kovedyaev)
            Ptolemy (F. V. Shelov-Kovedyaev)
            Pevtinger's map (A. V. Podosinov)
            Prisk (L. A. Gindin, A. I. Ivanchik)
            1. +3
              2 February 2023 11: 22
              Quote: Engineer
              Couldn't be more antique

              Pliny and Tacitus wrote about the Wends, whether they meant the Slavs is a big question, rather not, but it’s impossible to say something unequivocally yet.
              Prisk did not write about the Slavs, he mentions that he was treated to "honey" at Atilla's headquarters, that is, he uses a word that is considered Slavic in origin. To some extent - yes: also a source.
              To be honest, I don’t remember what Ptolemy has about the Slavs.
              I meant that in the pre-literate (or non-literate?) period, the main source is archaeological cultures. hi
              1. +6
                2 February 2023 11: 31
                Jordan tied the Wends and the Slavs. Ancient sources show some Wends in an earlier era. The ranges partially coincide. As far as I know, all theories of the origin of the Slavs take into account the messages of Tacitus and Pliny. It works especially well in the Vistula-Oder theory.
                Whether the Veneti of Tacitus are the Proto-Slavs, the future Slavic substratum, or the Slavs themselves, does not matter. These are most likely links of the same process of ethnogenesis, recorded in ancient sources And any theory is a mandatory synthesis of narrative and archeology.
                PS
                he was treated to "honey" at Atilla's headquarters, that is, he uses a word that is considered Slavic in origin.

                From memory, the origin of the word is Indo-European. But linguists insist that the form "medos" is Slavic. Germanic would be "midos"
                1. +3
                  2 February 2023 12: 09
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Ancient sources show some Wends in an earlier era. The ranges partially overlap.

                  I do not undertake to conduct a discussion about the Wends, my "qualification" is not enough. Previously, nevertheless, the majority agreed that the Wends were not Slavs, perhaps now, due to the accumulation of new data, something has changed.
                  Whether the Veneti of Tacitus are the Proto-Slavs, the future Slavic substratum, or the Slavs themselves, does not matter.

                  The transfer of the name in this particular case is not at all excluded.
                  ancient sources
                  It will not plunge into pure scholasticism; in fact, no one is going to reject Tacitus, Pliny, etc.
                  And any theory is a mandatory synthesis of narrative and archeology.

                  What about the Upper Paleolithic? (joking of course) hi
                  1. +4
                    2 February 2023 12: 24
                    I do not undertake to conduct a discussion about the Wends, my "qualification" is not enough. Previously, nevertheless, the majority agreed that the Wends were not Slavs, perhaps now, due to the accumulation of new data, something has changed.

                    Shchukin proceeded from the fact that the Wends cannot be accurately localized and in his version of the ethnogenesis of the Slavs, in fact, excluded them from his concept of synthesis
                    https://www.gumer.info/bibliotek_Buks/History/Article/schuk_rogdslav.php
            2. +2
              2 February 2023 11: 48
              Ancient authors of the name Slavs did not use.
              If we talk about the Byzantine authors of the fifth - sixth centuries, then briefly:
              1. The ancestral home of the Slavs is unknown, or they came from the depths of Asia.
              2. The behavior is completely barbaric, like that of the Avars.
              3. The appearance and lifestyle are indistinguishable from the Germans.
              4. They do not have a developed material culture, cities, clothes, they roam among the mountains and forests.
              5. The language is completely barbaric.
              6. Previously called sporades (spores scattered like mushroom spores?) Also called antes (ancient).
              7. They live in a democracy, (do not have a developed society) worship local gods similar to Greek ones.

              ----
              Even such a description of a numerous people is more suitable for the hordes of refugee farmers returning to their habitats. For some time they lived near the Germans, well known to ancient authors. They return with the nomads who broke the strength of the empire. But their way of life is not nomadic.
              1. +1
                2 February 2023 12: 02
                Ancient authors of the name Slavs did not use.

                What are you? Nobody here knew this before.
                The rest is too lazy to disassemble.
                Particularly pleased:
                The behavior is completely barbaric, like that of the Avars.


                Most of all, this stream of consciousness resembles the exotic hypothesis of Kolomiytsev, repeatedly retold and distorted
                1. +2
                  2 February 2023 13: 27
                  Here is a quote:
                  Their way of life, like that of the Massagetae, is rude and without any conveniences, they are always covered with mud, but in essence they are not bad and not at all malicious, but they preserve the Hun morals in all their purity. And once even the name of the Slavs and Antes was the same. In ancient times, both of these tribes were called disputes (“scattered”), I think, because they lived, occupying the country “sporaden”, “scattered”, separate villages.
            3. +1
              2 February 2023 11: 48
              Quote: Engineer
              Couldn't be more antique
              Prisk (L. A. Gindin, A. I. Ivanchik)

              Almost nothing is left of Prisk. All we know about him is references to his works by later authors.

              L. A. Gindin, A. I. Ivanchik - what kind of perversion is this?
              Did they replace Priscus? wink
          2. +2
            2 February 2023 11: 25
            Hi Sergey!
            glad to hear that!
            Oh Khazars, Khazars laughing good
            1. +3
              2 February 2023 11: 35
              Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
              Hi Sergey!
              glad to hear that!
              Oh Khazars, Khazars

              Greetings Edward!
              However, colleagues: what diagnosis will we make?
              laughing hi
              1. +3
                2 February 2023 13: 20
                I like it when the pictures have a caption indicating the source: a museum, a library, a book with a page laughing
                What can I tell you about Sakhalin? hi
                1. +2
                  2 February 2023 13: 53
                  Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                  What can I tell you about Sakhalin?

                  Is the weather good on the island? laughing
                  1. +1
                    2 February 2023 17: 28
                    No not like that
                    "Distributed containers-bars:
                    "The Khazars have come to us!"
                    1. +2
                      2 February 2023 17: 47
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      No not like that
                      "Distributed containers-bars:
                      "The Khazars have come to us!"

                      They offered us wine:

                      According to the recipes of the ancient Khazar winemakers, of course.... drinks
                      PS Surprisingly it turned out to be wow.
                      1. +2
                        2 February 2023 18: 40
                        Quote: Mihaylov
                        They offered us wine:

                        Lamtsa-dritsa-gop-tsatsa?
  10. +3
    2 February 2023 08: 42
    How is prophetic Oleg now gathered
    Take revenge on the unreasonable Khazars.
    Their villages and fields for a violent raid
    He doomed swords and fires
    ... Well, he didn’t particularly “revenge”, he simply took away part of the tributaries from the Khazars, in his favor. About fields and villages, Alexander Sergeevich did not embellish a lot.
    1. +1
      2 February 2023 09: 32
      Quote: kor1vet1974
      About fields and villages, Alexander Sergeevich did not embellish a lot.

      If only a little. There is an opinion that Oleg went to their penates more than once. Some researchers even say that Oleg, most likely, died during one of these campaigns.
      1. +3
        2 February 2023 10: 07
        There is an opinion
        There is an opinion, there is no evidence, except indirectly.
      2. +3
        2 February 2023 10: 33
        Some researchers even say that Oleg, most likely, died during one of these campaigns.

        Oh, this Cambridge anonymous and his mysterious H-l-g.
  11. +1
    2 February 2023 09: 00
    read Nikolai Gumilyov and you will be happy ... his concept, based on vast historical material and an academic approach, most logically describes this historical phenomenon ... including the top of the Khazar Kaganate as a typical chimera over the steppes
    the rest of the reasoning is a set of factors leading away from the essence of the phenomenon ... the emergence of a chimera of its peak and fall
    1. +4
      2 February 2023 09: 15
      Quote: silberwolf88
      read Nikolai Gumilyov

      You probably meant Lev Gumilyov. Nikolai is his father, Tsvetaeva's husband and just a poet...
  12. +5
    2 February 2023 09: 04
    One of them - a version of the economic crisis - was proposed by the famous Soviet and Russian ethnologist and orientalist L. N. Gumilyov (1912–1992). In his opinion, the trade routes that passed through Khazaria, and which were almost the main source of income for this state, were disrupted due to the political crisis in China at the turn of the XNUMXth century, due to which the Great Silk Road was disorganized.


    Perhaps. But it should be noted that the next link in the chain of transit states (after Khazaria) was Kievan Rus.
    Graters between Svyatoslav and the Khazars could also be caused by the fact that everyone tried to snatch a fatter piece for himself.
    Goods came not only from China, but also from the Arab East (Arab East - Central Asia - Khazaria - Kievan Rus - Europe (German lands).
    When this trade route began to decline, Svyatoslav decided to take control of the Danube trade. He even wanted to move the capital from Kyiv, realizing the limited growth opportunities for Kyiv. But this was not in the interests of Byzantium, so Basileus Tzimiskes put an end to this initiative of Svyatoslav.
    My point is that the economic problems of the state can lead to its decline, if associated with a lack of its military power. Otherwise, they can be solved by military means ...
    1. +1
      2 February 2023 09: 18
      Quote: Illanatol
      the economic problems of the state can lead to its decline if they are associated with a lack of its military power

      The decline of Khazaria is a combination of many problems! The economy, ethnic and religious differences, the rise of neighbors, etc.
  13. +2
    2 February 2023 09: 04
    The Khazars live in the north of the inhabited lands. Their land is cold and damp. Therefore, their faces are white, their eyes are blue, their hair is more red and curly, they are large in body, and cold in temper. This people is wild
    If there had been an author of Samsonov, he would certainly have developed this to the Russian Aryans. True, Svyatoslav and his army were also Russians, well ... this can be explained by the fact that the first, in the end, forgot traditional values, then Judaism and all that and the second, in short, they were punished wassat
  14. +2
    2 February 2023 09: 12
    Quote: kor1vet1974
    Well, he didn’t particularly “revenge”, he simply took away part of the tributaries from the Khazars, in his favor

    That's probably how it was. Simple practice...

    Quote: kor1vet1974
    About fields and villages, Alexander Sergeevich did not embellish a lot

    Why embellished? The cities of Itil with Semender and Belenjer still cannot be found during the day with fire ... wink
    1. +2
      2 February 2023 09: 22
      That's probably how it was

      The article is a historical poem. About how the wind of history, changing direction every now and then, drove huge crowds of people trying to survive, to gain a foothold in the chosen territory...
      Красиво.
      Thanks to the Author! )))
  15. +1
    2 February 2023 09: 23
    They were indeed very ethnically disparate, retaining different skin tones (white and black Khazars) and anthropological types, which would be evident throughout Khazar history.

    Pletneva has a simple and reasonable explanation. "White" is the upper class, born in harems from mostly non-Khazar mothers.
    1. +2
      2 February 2023 10: 04
      Is it like the highest caste in India?
      They, the Brahmins, are all white. How many pictures have you seen! The rest are mixed.
  16. +7
    2 February 2023 09: 30
    Israeli historians insist on the widespread dissemination of this religion among all the Khazars, as well as on its penetration into the environment of the peoples subordinate to the Khazars.

    I remembered the episode with the Baptism of Rus' from Nikitin :))))
    - The name of?
    - Srul.
    - You will be Akaki!
    1. 0
      2 February 2023 10: 07
      Joker! )))
      I liked the joke! wassat )))
      Tremor in the fingers, it has to be corrected - there is a dream, there is no sleep, but it is all winter fatigue. Poor ancestors!
  17. +4
    2 February 2023 09: 42
    Quote: Engineer
    "White" is the upper class, born in harems

    Khazaria was the habitat of many peoples - Slavs, Finns, Germans, Scythian-Alano-Sarmatians, Turks, peoples of Central Asia, etc. Among them were both blue-eyed blondes and brown-eyed brunettes. Something like the Russian Empire ...

    P.S. If we recall the immortal book of J. Hasek, then the Austrians had Circassians, Tatars, Georgians and Russians in captivity. Each with its own anthropological type...
    1. +3
      2 February 2023 10: 08
      Khazaria was the habitat of many peoples - Slavs, Finns, Germans, Scythian-Alano-Sarmatians, Turks, peoples of Central Asia, etc. Among them were both blue-eyed blondes and brown-eyed brunettes. Something like the Russian Empire.

      Istkhari, who wrote this
      The Khazars are not like the Turks, they are black-haired, they are divided into two categories, one is called the Kara-Khazar, they are so swarthy that their swarthy looks like a mob, they are like some kind of category from India. The other category is white, beautiful and perfect in appearance.

      described specifically the Khazars in Itil and Semender, and did not give a generalized description of the population of the Khazar state. At the same time, he completely singled out the Slavs, Guzes, Khorasans and others and did not confuse them with the Khazars.
      1. +1
        2 February 2023 11: 41
        Quote: Engineer
        described specifically the Khazars in Itil and Semender, and did not give a generalized description

        He drew concrete maps. Only here on them the Volga had a different direction, China was in the north and the Black Sea was completely absent ... wink
        1. 0
          2 February 2023 11: 45
          No need to cast a shadow on the wattle fence.
          Describing the locals is a much easier task than making a map.
          In addition to Pletneva, the version about the social nature of the difference between "whites" and "blacks" was expressed by Artamonov.
          1. +3
            2 February 2023 12: 11
            Quote: Engineer
            Describing locals is a much easier task.

            Let me remind you of one amusing episode connected with the stay of Priscus in the camp of Attila. He was called in Hellenic by a barbarian dressed in a skin. To the question
            where are you from, hun know the hellenic language, he replied that he is not a Hun, but a Hellene and is in the service of Attila.

            Priscus also described the Huns and their social nature, however, he confused the Hellenic with the barbarian...
        2. +3
          2 February 2023 16: 37
          and the Black Sea was completely absent ...

          It hasn't been dug up yet.
  18. +1
    2 February 2023 09: 46
    Quote: Luminman

    Why embellished? The cities of Itil with Semender and Belenjer still cannot be found during the day with fire ... wink


    There are enough settlements excavated to a fig (like the Mongols, by the way), not excavated, either, it's just that the ancestors did not feel the need to put a stele at the entrance with the inscription "Welcome to Semender".

    In this respect, alien archaeologists will have a much easier time thousands of years from now.
  19. +2
    2 February 2023 09: 52
    Quote: deddem
    it's just that the ancestors did not feel the need to put a stele at the entrance with the inscription "Welcome to Semender".

    Near Troy, too, there were no steles, however, they nevertheless unearthed it, thanks to the research of scientists ...
  20. +5
    2 February 2023 10: 55
    The older the historical period under study, the less the historian has the opportunity to find out accurate information from historical documents, and therefore the more opportunities for his own fantasies.
    In short, writing books on ancient history is pure pleasure. laughing
  21. +6
    2 February 2023 11: 34
    Quote: Luminman
    Quote from Kuziming
    Slovenia is ... the descendants of the Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Gauls, defeated by the Romans, who went beyond the Danube

    It smells like a Nobel Prize...
    Haven't applied yet? wink

    No, I didn't. I have been researching this issue for many years, I try to state my position with reason, it’s a pity that opponents either laugh or get angry.
  22. +2
    2 February 2023 11: 38
    Quote from Kuziming
    sorry, opponents either laugh or get angry

    I don't get angry and I don't laugh. Your theory is just amazing...
  23. +2
    2 February 2023 12: 14
    The presence of the Khazars in this territory left a significant mark on history. They were intermediaries in the trade of goods between Europe and the Silk Road...

    So it came out - the mug of the Silk Road. All Western Siberia and Eastern Europe. On the one hand, some stability of these territories is necessary for the successful movement of complex Chinese goods and local simple goods to Western Europe. On the other hand, there is some kind of military tension between the roadside countries, so that these territories do not develop technologically very well and are content only with those complex goods that the Chinese sell them. And that's how it is so far. It's like someone's in charge of all of this.
    Never a connoisseur, just an impression.
  24. +1
    2 February 2023 12: 27
    Quote: depressant
    muzzle of the Silk Road. All Western Siberia and Eastern Europe

    You shorten the length of this path, take it further - all the way to Paris and the Pyrenees ...
    1. +2
      2 February 2023 12: 55
      And if you look at the manufacturability of associated territories, then the farther from China, the more developed they are. The beginning of the Path is Siberia, primitive barbarity. The opposite end of the Way, Paris, is the high technology of the time. That is, as the distance from the source increases, as it were, technological independence from China increases. Involuntarily you ask yourself the question "What does it all mean?"
      Such is the involuntary conspiracy theory.
      In fact, it seems to me that climate and the topology of the area play a huge role in the development of civilization. But this is already banal. But ... Here is Inner Mongolia, Outer ... China is technological, but they are not! But close by.
      1. +2
        2 February 2023 13: 30
        Quote: depressant
        Paris, --- high technology of the time

        You're wrong. Paris at that time was one of the strongholds of real barbarism...
  25. +3
    2 February 2023 12: 38
    Quote from Kuziming
    Drevlyans are forest nomads

    yeah, yeah, and they lived in the trees wink
    And the clearing lived in the fields, the krivichi were crooked, and the lyutichi were very angry laughing
    1. +2
      2 February 2023 12: 57
      You told me, I believed, I rejoice!
      good drinks wassat )))
  26. +3
    2 February 2023 13: 35
    The adoption of Judaism, at least by the top of the kaganate, on the one hand, is a mystery, on the other hand, in my opinion, it has a rational explanation.
    When one of the "good" Roman emperors dispersed the Jews from the promised land, they continued to exist in three ways: oppressed and infringed continued to exist in the Middle East, both Roman and Persian, most of them migrated to the west - to the Pyrenees and to northern Africa. And the third part was ousted from the Middle East a little later, both by some zealous Byzantine emperors (there were those who wanted to Christianize all their subjects), and by the victorious march of Islam, including in the lands of the Persians, to Khorezm, before that the Jews lived there calmly. All these events led to the migration of the Jews to the Transcaucasus and the Caspian, where, however, they did not get lost, did not assimilate (thanks to the original transfer of nationality through the mother), but they brought higher scientific knowledge, technologies, including military art, to the region. Plus, well-established trade and financial ties through the then Oikumene to the Pyrenees and Britain. Knowing the local Caucasian tribes, as well as the Turkic Khaganates, gladly accepted into their circle the "White Khazars" Jews, good warriors and craftsmen, as well as the mysterious and powerful monotheistic religion, leaving the worship of the wind, the sun and horse bones to the common people, the Turks to pastoralists .. The nobility always loves to separate into secret powerful beliefs from the common people.
    After the disappearance of the Khazar Khaganate, however, the Mountain Jews existed to this day, on the territory of Persia, then the Russian Empire, they lived compactly in entire regions, occupying a niche of unsurpassed artisans in terms of edged weapons, inlaid dishes and jewelry, clothes and famous Persian carpets. The same famous masters of Cuba are they. By type - in my opinion, pure Caucasians, who do not have anything Semitic in appearance, you can look at the same singer Jasmine, or actress Victoria Isakova - nothing Arabic.
    In the 19th century, during the time of Ghazavat, when Muslim fanatics slaughtered villages, demanding to convert to Islam, Dzhokhar Dudayev, on his mother's side, was subjected to the greatest repressions from the "transitions".
    Something like this, the logic of the spread of Judaism in the Caspian Sea seems to me like this, because it has not been scientifically described by anyone.
  27. +2
    2 February 2023 13: 36
    Quote: Luminman
    The decline of Khazaria is a combination of many problems! The economy, ethnic and religious differences, the rise of neighbors, etc.


    As long as the power is successful militarily, all these problems are not critical. Everything can be resolved at the expense of nishtyakov from the outside. But when a power begins a streak of military failures, all the sores become aggravated.
    Our problems are often the flip side of our own virtues. Which side of the coin will be more significant... well, you get the idea...
    1. +1
      2 February 2023 13: 54
      Quote: Illanatol
      As long as the power is successful militarily, all these problems are not critical.

      Everything is the opposite. From that, a power is always successful in relation to the military, as long as it does not have problems of a critical nature inside ...
  28. +1
    2 February 2023 13: 41
    Quote: depressant
    And if you look at the manufacturability of associated territories, then the farther from China, the more developed they are. The beginning of the Path is Siberia, primitive barbarism. The opposite end of the Way, Paris, is the high technology of the time.


    Wrong. What about Japan and Korea? India is also close. The Turks ... that they were completely undeveloped?
    And the Persians, that is, Iran? The Chinese had contacts with the Persians.
    Well, there were also Tanguts, Khitans and Manchus, though a little later.
    1. +1
      2 February 2023 16: 09
      . Wrong. What about Japan and Korea? India is also close. The Turks ... that they were completely undeveloped?


      I meant the peoples inhabiting Siberia. There is a version that the Japanese came from Altai - a partial similarity of the language. But Altai remained primitive, and Japan, neighboring China, technologically rushed. As if they looked, they learned, they began to give out their own. You say, why didn't the Ainu learn? So they sat in place, and so it was tolerable. And the aliens did not travel half the world for this, so that in a luxurious, from their Siberian point of view, climate, not to fuss. Although there are many sunny days in Altai, the latitude is still high and cold.
  29. +1
    2 February 2023 13: 45
    In general, one big bandit state. And we have been hammered in from childhood about man-made wars. And we must talk about international wars. Yes, the USSR is no more golden time has passed.
    The question arose why the territory began to be called the Western Karakhanid Khaganate with the Khazars, as if everything is clear.
    After all, Islam and Zoroastrianism were religions in this territory.
    Apparently there is no other name. In the 6th century, the Hephthalites also lived in this territory.
    although who cares.
  30. +2
    2 February 2023 13: 51
    Quote from Kuziming
    7. They live in a democracy, (do not have a developed society) worship local gods similar to Greek ones.


    And that's it. Procopius, the court chronicler of Basileus Justinian, was obliged to fluctuate strictly in time with the "general line". Once the Slovene Antes live in a democracy, not knowing the power of their Basileus monarch, they are like wild barbarians ... similar to all the Greek Perikles and Themistocles.
    Because there is nothing better than the power of a basileus, autocracy is an ideal and an earthly reflection of the Kingdom of Heaven. Hip hip, hooray!

    In short, no objectivity, sheer propaganda ... well, as usual.
  31. +2
    2 February 2023 13: 57
    Quote from Kuziming
    As a result of studying the topic, at this stage, I came to the conclusion that Slovenes are people of a single word, similar languages. These are the descendants of the Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Gauls, defeated by the Romans, who went beyond the Danube. Western civilization perceives their return as an infernal threat.


    Fresh and bold. Only hardly. Slovenes (Slavs) are surprisingly homogeneous at the genetic level. The Dacians and Gauls and the peoples descended from them are very different.
    Although the Slovenes could be culturally close to the Celts-Gauls.
    Slovene - those who know the word, that is, have a written language. Perhaps, initially it was not a people, but an estate among the Indo-European ancestors.
  32. +3
    2 February 2023 13: 59
    Quote: Luminman
    The cities of Itil with Semender and Belenjer still cannot be found during the day with fire ...


    Itil must be sought on the river Itilien. laughing
  33. 0
    2 February 2023 14: 38
    Quote: Illanatol
    Slovene - those who know the word, that is, have a written language.
    Your theory is interesting hi
    Well then, the Romans, Greeks and Arabs are also Slovenian laughing
    And the first Slovenes lived in Ugarit
  34. 0
    2 February 2023 15: 26
    Thank you all for your comments, thanks to the author of the article for a detailed review.
    As for the local episode with the tribute of swords, a few years ago I recorded such a video, perhaps someone will be interested:
    https://youtu.be/NoxIeUZuNhc
    1. +1
      2 February 2023 19: 28
      Dear colleague Kuziming!
      Listened to the lecture from start to finish - amazing!
      Thank you! love )))
      Please, if necessary, publish your entries - more. But the question remains.
      So you say that the Russian Plain is devoid of iron.
      Help.
      Deposits of iron ores are concentrated in Krivoy Rog, Kerch, Kremenchug and Belozersky districts. The Krivoy Rog iron ore basin is located in the Dnepropetrovsk and partly Kirovograd regions.
      There are over 300 rich iron ore deposits in Krivbass, their explored reserves amount to 18 billion tons.

      That is, the mentioned areas are not the Russian Plain?

      But here is another note.
      Industrial mining of iron ores in the European part of Russia is carried out in the Belgorod and Kursk regions, where the bulk of the reserves of rich ores are located (the Yakovlevskoye, Mikhailovskoye, Lebedinskoye and Stoilenskoye deposits). The balance reserves of iron ores in the European North (Murmansk region and the Republic of Karelia) amount to 2,8 billion tons, or 5% of the balance reserves of iron ores in the country.
      1. 0
        2 February 2023 20: 13
        The man is talking nonsense. Only an individual who could not even master the school geography course could declare that metals were completely absent on the East European Plain. The same goes for weaving and swamp ore mining.
        Therefore, only the ignorance of the author is striking in this video.
        Another folkhistorian from the plow.
      2. +1
        2 February 2023 23: 17
        1. There are iron ore deposits, from Belgorod to Kerch. Moreover, in Kerch there are ores up to 90% iron content. One trouble - in the era of the early Slavs, these territories were controlled by nomads.
        2. Swamp iron. Sounds good, there are videos on YouTube. Yes, here's another misfortune - the most severe iron deficiency in the Russian village in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Chekhov has a story about how a peasant unscrewed nuts from the rails for the sake of iron. During the period of collectivization, they could be sent to Siberia for an iron plow. Somehow the swamp iron did not help to solve these problems.
        1. +2
          3 February 2023 00: 35
          On what other sources, besides YouTube videos and Chekhov's stories, is your knowledge in the field of metallurgy and metalworking of ancient Rus' based? Surnames, for example, Artsikhovsky, Kolchin say something?
  35. -1
    2 February 2023 17: 55
    Haven’t they written yet that the Mongol clan of Ashina, on skinny horses, could not conquer anyone, and the backward Tungus Turks did not create any Turkic Khaganate? (just look at the modern Mongols, Altaians and Tungus) And Khazaria - is it, obviously, the name of the ancient Zechariah, the country of hyperorusians - pagans, altered by the agents of the pope? laughing
    1. +2
      2 February 2023 20: 18
      Couldn't, of course lol
      Neither skinny nor big and fat. Neither the level of production nor the capacity of the communication lines allows.
      Khazaria is another historical phantom, the same as the Mongol Empire. The nomads, who suddenly began to crowd out the more developed countries, seized a vast territory and disappeared into nowhere, leaving no significant traces of their existence. The Khazar capitals were never found. They did not even find any cattle markets that could be passed off as capitals (like Karakorum and Shandu). No documents were found. As a result, it turns out that there seems to be some kind of archaeological culture in a certain area. And there is the annalistic Khazaria, which seems to coincide with this culture. But poor cultural traces do not prove that there was a state in this place - in the same way that traces of gypsy camps throughout Europe do not say that gypsies ruled Europe.
      And the identification of "Khazar archaeological finds" and chronicle Khazars (that is, hussar) - this is the usual for officials to pull an owl on a globe.
      1. +1
        2 February 2023 22: 04
        annalistic Khazars (i.e. hussars)
        Nothing like this. Chronicle "Khazars" are ZakhArs - Aryans of Sunset, i.e. Western Aryans. And the hussars, obviously, are the Armenian cavalry in the army of Jan Zizka and Prokop Naked.
        1. +1
          3 February 2023 01: 03
          It's embarrassing, you would have to perform in a full house. Or are you serious? Are you by any chance a Fomenkovite, my friend? laughing

          It is interesting that the officials, when they pin you to the wall, are no longer able to provide any arguments, except for the wildest funny jokes)))
          1. +1
            3 February 2023 01: 28
            What, perishing, here jokes? You can't refute it, just say so.
          2. +1
            3 February 2023 02: 00
            By the way, lancers are actually yulans, i.e., flying on an anti-gravity aircraft spinning in torsion fields, i.e., a viman. These are ancient Indian arias, which, for some reason, you call gypsies. And the cities, they, of course, were in the sky. Therefore, no ruins and artifacts have been preserved.
            1. +2
              3 February 2023 02: 27
              *Quite calmly* you see, my friend, if there were no ruins, no artifacts, no documents, no evidence of their traces left from your torsion lancers, then there were none.
              And we say the same about the Mongol, Khazar and other phantom empires: they did not exist.

              But since you have problems with the perception of written information, it seems to you that by inventing an obviously non-existent people, you thus prove the existence of another obviously non-existent people laughing
              Try again bully
              1. 0
                3 February 2023 11: 40
                These are all empty words, you have no arguments either for the Khazar hussars or for the uhlans.
                1. +1
                  3 February 2023 12: 44
                  *yawn* what arguments do you need? bully
                  You came up with torsion lancers, you come up with arguments in favor of their existence))
                  1. +1
                    3 February 2023 13: 44
                    what arguments do you need?

                    Strong arguments that the Khazars are hussars laughing, and Shangdu is the cattle market.
                    1. +1
                      3 February 2023 19: 10
                      I wrote about Shandu and Karakorum in a thread about the Mongols. There are ruins of cities, but there is no confirmation of their capital status and wealth in general, and the dimensions were achieved mainly due to adobe fences around the perimeter, which do not carry defensive functions. It remains to be assumed that these cities were trading, and specifically specialized in buying from the Mongols those low-grade products that they really had, and not fictitious looted wealth. And they were arranged in the same way as many other similar cities in remote places, in Siberia, Africa, etc.: natives from everywhere bring their resources (and in our case it could only be cattle) in exchange for handicrafts, after which resources are immediately subjected to minimal processing and exported in the direction of civilization. In our case, China. Therefore, Shandu was sucked from China and therefore the bourgeoisie was invited there:

                      "the city had a number of shortcomings: the lack of well-established routes and waterways, complete dependence on supplies from China. In the first year of his reign, Khubilai removed taxation from the city and reduced trade duties on trade with Shangdu. However, by 1293, a significant part of the artisans left city ​​and moved to China." - note that the threats of the Mongols "vsEh parerEzat" for some reason acted on soldiers in fortified cities, but did not act on Chinese hard workers. Like a gritz, the Mongols had problems with Chinatown even before it became mainstream ... But if we remove the orthodox interpretation, it turns out that these cities are just big trading posts created by the Chinese to include nomads in their economic space, the only logical and in a very efficient way. It's just that the enterprise burned down in Shangdu, but not in Karakorum.




                      As for the Khazars, you need to look at the context in which they are mentioned in the annals. The legend about the choice of faith by Vladimir, for example, is an obvious propaganda of the predecessors of the Russian Orthodox Church. If there was an election of faith, then the disputes were not the same as in the legend, and if so, then the "Khazar Jews" could not have been Khazar. Or maybe this episode did not exist at all and it was invented. And most official historians agree with this.

                      In general, the eastern direction is excluded, and the Catholic West remains the method of exclusion, where, suddenly, Tatars, and Mongols, and khans, and Khazars (just hussars), and Bulgars, and the Golden Horde are found feel
                      But this is not suitable for officials, give you exotic, Europeans are boring winked
                      1. 0
                        3 February 2023 21: 16
                        In general, the eastern direction is excluded, and the Catholic West remains the method of exclusion, where, suddenly, Tatars, and Mongols, and khans, and Khazars (just hussars), and Bulgars, and the Golden Horde are found
                        this, excuse me, is empty chatter, both about the "method of exclusion" and about the "Mongols in the west" with weaker arguments than those of my ulans and the equestrian Armenians of the Hussites. laughing What concerns the Karakorum, Shandu, and their history, will look completely different if, a little tense, and remember the construction of Dadu by Khubilai. And there are no trading posts built according to the plan of Chinese regular cities. Besides, what the hell is a trading post in the steppe, if you can easily trade with nomads and neighbors without them?
                      2. 0
                        4 February 2023 00: 28
                        Yes, and if, indeed, you are copying the text from the wiki, then quote in full laughing
                        "the city had a number of shortcomings: the lack of well-established routes and waterways, complete dependence on supplies from China
                        etc.
                        this is yours, and, here is what is written above in the text:
                        As a rule, annually on the spring equinox, the Yuan emperors came to the city, and left on the autumn equinox. Mongol troops moved with them, unable to endure the hot Chinese summer.
                        , and everything is clear, without "factories, bestial markets" and other crap, with the "method of exclusion"
                      3. +1
                        4 February 2023 02: 08
                        >> As a rule, annually on the spring equinox, the Yuan emperors came to the city, and left on the autumn equinox. Mongol troops moved with them, unable to endure the hot Chinese summer.
                        and everything is clear


                        And so everything is clear that the "emperor" from this hole could not manage anything, therefore, he could not have any other tasks, except for the management of trade. Here, kanesh, you need to read between the lines that the Yuan emperor is a descendant of galactic conquerors [and not a local leader], who doesn’t need any crap like a convenient postal service, and who doesn’t get stuck with loyal troops every half a year from his most densely populated region to dump. To make it more convenient for the Chinese to rebel. Because the Yuan Dynasty, kanesh, had satellite communications and orbital lasers. winked
                        It was other rulers who occupied some strategically important point and kept the administration and loyal occupying troops in them, but who are they in front of our Mongols? LOOOOOHI!!!

                        >> what about the Karakorum, Shandu, and their history, it will look completely different if, a little tense, and remember the construction of Dadu Kublai.

                        If you strain a little and remember the construction of Rome by Romulus, fed by a she-wolf, it becomes obvious that the construction of Dadu by Khubilai is another myth. And it's not surprising, kanesh, that not a damn thing is left of these buildings. Because some Chinese Indian, nicknamed Eagle Eye, finally realized that illiterate bare-assed conquerors without a fortress, who arrived, and then every summer are dumped from the conquered region, it turns out that they can be overthrown from a warm place. Who would have thought that the Mongolian demigods are also mortal
                        Well, kanesh, overthrow, and destroy all the buildings and rebuild. We have the 13th century, capital buildings are of no value, destroyed - rebuilt, called Chinese hard workers with tower cranes, and built. These poor Europeans and Asia Minor even squeezed temples from each other, but who are these Mediterraneans compared to the proud sons of the East? Fuckers!
                        But I was joking, but in fact, there is no evidence of the "ancient Dadu" except for the so-called. There are no "earth walls", and it is not clear who built them. Unless you consider that Dadu was built of straw, like the house of one of the three pigs, and therefore it was more fun to set it on fire than to rebuild bully

                        >> And trading posts built according to the plan of Chinese regular cities are not observed.

                        Chinese regular cities are observed. So it was a city built by the Chinese for the benefit of China.

                        >> Besides, why the heck in the steppe of the trading post, if you can easily trade with nomads, neighbors without them?

                        Why the hell do we need warehouses if the Yandex courier delivers everything without them? You are just like Mitrofanushka wink
                        However, if you already have crowds of riders who can ride without roads and rear services, then teleportation trade is carried out

                        >> "method of exclusion" and about the "Mongols in the West" with weaker arguments than those of my ulans and mounted Armenians of the Hussites.

                        *shrugging* if lancers are mentioned in the annals, then it is logical to imagine equestrian lancers-Europeans. It remains only to figure out which state they belonged to. If "Khazars" are mentioned in the annals, and there are no indications of eastern exoticism, then it is logical to imagine Khazar-European equestrians. No, I understand that the officials, when they joke about the Hyperborean torsion lancers, in their hearts they themselves want some kind of fantasy and exotic. To read the annals with the mention of some "Germans" and composed the empire of the Antarctic Germans, who conquered America, Siberia and got from the White Sea to Rus', and then mysteriously disappeared. This is a serious scientific approach, here you can get how many degrees you can get ... laughing laughing laughing
                      4. 0
                        4 February 2023 02: 58
                        And so everything is clear that the "emperor" could not manage anything from this hole, therefore, he could not have any other tasks, except for managing trade
                        why couldn't he, and why from the "hole"? A couple of three hundred kilometers from the capital, a summer dacha is two and a half times closer than St. Petersburg is from Moscow.
                        And there are no trading posts built according to the plan of Chinese regular cities.

                        Chinese regular cities are observed. So it was a city built by the Chinese for the benefit of China.
                        Abramovich's yacht was also not built by his brothers from Luzhniki, but no doubt for the benefit of Abramovich laughing "earthen walls" - adobe walls several meters high. It's like calling the palisade of Vladimir (the city of Bogolyubsky) a picket fence laughing
                        Besides, what the hell is a trading post in the steppe, if you can easily trade with nomads and neighbors without them?

                        Why the hell do we need warehouses if the Yandex courier delivers everything without them? You are just like Mitrofanushka
                        absolutely not needed for a couple of hundred kilometers from the capital in a hostile steppe, and even with an unguarded site two by two kilometers. with a "dilapidated fence", everything would have been taken away. laughing
                        shrugging his shoulders * if lancers are mentioned in the annals, then it is logical to imagine equestrian lancers-Europeans. It remains only to figure out which state they belonged to. If "Khazars" are mentioned in the annals, and there are no indications of eastern exoticism, then it is logical to imagine Khazar-European equestrians.
                        and you can Africans, or Martians. It depends on the breadth of your imagination. "Logical" and "imagining" is a clear oxymoron in a similar maxim laughing At the expense of the Germans, you yourself, apparently unwittingly, by chance, turned out to be close to the meaning of all your constructions. laughing Bring a document in German with the word "Germans"
                      5. 0
                        4 February 2023 04: 44
                        Your problem is that you do not understand what is "logical" and how logic can be used. From this, maxims similar to these are born in you: "since I know a triangle, it is logical to assume that any polygon is a triangle, and it is logical that there can be no quadrilaterals, since a triangle has three angles" laughing and on the basis of such strange reasoning, you build even more strange and ridiculous conclusions.
                      6. +1
                        5 February 2023 00: 42
                        >> why couldn't he, and why from the "hole"? A couple of three hundred kilometers from the capital, a summer dacha is two and a half times closer than St. Petersburg from Moscow.

                        Do you think St. Petersburg is close to Moscow? For the pre-industrial era? Oh well. In the Russian Empire, a courier could cover such a distance (a couple of hundred kilometers) in a day. On the highway, on relay horses. This is on sledges or on carriages of the 19th century, which are a little more complicated than the carriages of the 19th century. Explain further or do it yourself? And this is a courier or the “emperor” himself, and the troops are not on the messengers (although it’s hard for you to understand the difference between postal horses and ordinary ones, well, at least read the comments on “Eugene Onegin”, it explains there).
                        It was Stalin who could lead from the dacha, he had a telephone. Even from the Abkhaz dacha, and still preferred to sit in the "neighbor".

                        >> Abramovich's yacht was also built not by his brothers from Luzhniki, but no doubt for the benefit of Abramovich

                        Immediately 2 errors. Firstly, Abramovich's yacht is not a means of production, but an object of consumption. Do you need an educational program in economics? And in the 1nd, Abramovich's yacht was built for the benefit of those who built it, and Abramovich shows with all his behavior to whom he is devoted in body and soul for the yacht and other goodies. Do you read news?

                        >> "earthen walls" - adobe a few meters. It's like calling the palisade of Vladimir (the city of Bogolyubsky) a picket fence

                        Claims are not for me. “The remains of the old Yuan walls survive to this day north of the Ming walls; now they are known as Tucheng (Chinese 土城, lit. earth wall) ”- Wiki.
                        And what, by the way, is the evidence that these walls were built in the supposed era, and not a couple of hundred years later?

                        >> absolutely not needed

                        Road signs are also not needed, cab driver ... Sorry, taxi driver, and so where you need to take laughing

                        >> a couple of hundred kilometers from the capital

                        Well. This is far for public administration, but for the economy of norms. And, by the way, it explains why Beijing has acquired such great importance.

                        >> in the hostile steppe

                        This is if you keep before your eyes the semi-official theory of the hundreds of thousands of Mongol armies. In reality, the steppes move in such hordes only in fantasy and science fiction.
                        By the way. Recently I started reading John Norman's graphomania - and he also has nomads on the Counter-Earth, where would it be without them. True, they have alien animals, and the sedentary society is artificially divided by powerful cockroach aliens, and cockroaches in the heads of the inhabitants help to conquer them. It is worth taking possession of the main idol of the city - and 99% of the townspeople humbly serve the invader. Religion is like that. And the Mongols somehow coped without all this. Even science fiction writers don’t raise their hand to write such nonsense that the officials managed to compose laughing

                        >> and even with an unguarded site

                        So for this we need a "Mongolian emperor" with troops who every six months went to protect this bazaar smile
                        To discourage compatriots from behaving not by the rules.
                        And those who have already managed to get involved in commodity relations - why should they be naughty? Losing people, taking risks in order to rake in goods, which then themselves will somehow need to be sold off the hands. No, the leaders who get involved in trade become interested in it themselves, and if the poor lose from non-equivalent exchange, then they are not asked and are not afraid.
                        So all the way the natives were included in the trade exchange. And Siberians, and Indians, and Africans ... And the Mongols. Profitable trade + missionaries (and there were also non-Mongolian places of worship in Karakorum, but entirely foreign ones). This is the realpolitik that we observe even in the era of firearms.
                        I kanesh understand that it is easy for you to imagine how a hundred thousandth army of the Mongols drives into the steppe and bends down the same hundred thousandth army of other nomads without any attempt of resistance from the latter, just in words, and it is difficult to imagine that the same thing was done with the help of mutually beneficial offers. Where are the epic campaigns (on paper), where are the feats, where is the kroff? What to write about, in kind, about boring economic transactions? “I can’t go for this!” winked

                        >> and you can Africans, or Martians

                        Well, I understand that you haven’t heard about Occam’s Razor, so you have Africans, Martians, and Far East Asians
                        Is there any evidence of the Martian origin of the Lancers?

                        >> Bring a document in German with the word "Germans'

                        Great joke. If only in a modern Russian-German dictionary. It's the same Russian word.

                        >> "since I know a triangle, it is logical to assume that any polygon is a triangle, and it is logical that there can be no quadrilaterals, since a triangle has three angles"

                        Past the checkout. If there is data for only three sides and three vertices, then it is a triangle. Of course, you can even compose a hypercube.
                      7. 0
                        5 February 2023 04: 35
                        In the Russian Empire, such a distance (a couple of hundred km) could be covered by a courier in a day. On the highway, on relay horses. This is on sledges or on carriages of the 19th century, which are a little more complicated than the carriages of the 19th century. Explain further or do it yourself
                        explain, please, why it was more difficult and longer for a Mongolian rider on substitute horses to travel 300 km using pit stations than through the system of pits introduced to Rus' by the Mongols to the envoy of Peter V 18 on a carriage 800 km? And fuck the Mongol carriage of the 19th century laughing
                        So for this we need a "Mongolian emperor" with troops who every six months went to protect this bazaar
                        but why the hell, (by the way, the Chinese, who, according to your fairy tales, was the emperor of the Yuan dynasty) travel for six months 300 km from their place of residence, protect someone on the territory of the market in the bare steppe, despite the fact that the market is a hundred times larger in area
                        former Cherkizon? Do you understand what
                        funny nonsense you generate laughing
                        Bring a document in German with the word "Germans"

                        Great joke. If only in a modern Russian-German dictionary. It's the same Russian word.
                        you see, the glimmers of common sense in you have not faded yet. But if you continue in the same spirit, you will soon come to the theory that the Red Army fought with the Sami (Nenets) in 41-45 laughing
                      8. 0
                        5 February 2023 05: 05
                        Well, I understand that you have not heard about "Occam's Razor"
                        You can safely wave your razor, because the division of the empty set is not forbidden, and the result of the division will be empty sets no worse than the original one, and thus, "alternative historical theories" will not suffer. Most importantly, don't hurt your friend laughing
                      9. 0
                        5 February 2023 05: 40
                        Road signs are also not needed,
                        you see, in Central Asia there are 340 out of 365 sunny days a year. laughing (on the steppe on horseback and roads are not needed) learn, in short. Yes, and what prevented Kublai from putting up road signs? It is unlikely that he was worried about your fantasies about his abilities.
                      10. +1
                        5 February 2023 17: 19
                        >> explain, please,

                        I am ready to enlighten you as much as possible

                        >> why the Mongol rider on replacement horses
                        >> And why the heck is a 19th century carriage for the Mongol

                        For example, because the Mongolian horses had many wonderful qualities, but not the ability to gallop. And it is better for undersized horses to pull the carriage along, distributing the load. In addition, in the carriage, the courier can try to take a nap, but in the saddle on a galloping horse, it’s no longer possible. And in the carriage there are not only interchangeable horses, but also a coachman.
                        It can, of course, be assumed that the Mongols had special horses for couriers. And a paved highway. But in any case, the postal speed in RI is the upper limit for a similar situation in MI. Slower could ride, faster not. And we will make a huge assumption to the officials, suppose that it was at this speed that the Mongolian couriers rode. Then you need to explain why even in this case it was impossible to manage anything from Shandu, or can you handle it yourself? winked

                        >>why was it more difficult and longer to travel 300 km for the envoy of Peter V18 on a carriage 800 km?

                        Mmm, for example, because Peter did not leave the capital every year for 800 km? What does 800 km have to do with it? Maybe you got confused and decided that I indicate the speed for 800 km, although I indicated in brackets that we are talking about 200-300 km, and not about the distance from St. Petersburg to Moscow?

                        >> than through the system of pits introduced to Rus' by the Mongols

                        Missed the word "supposedly"

                        >> and why the heck drive for six months 300 km from the place of residence, someone to protect

                        You take the word “roof” too literally, as if the “Mongol emperor”, dressed in an abibas, personally walked around the malls and beat the faces of non-payers. Try to reformulate the question again.

                        >> by the way, the Chinese, who, according to your fairy tales, was the emperor of the Yuan dynasty

                        You have trouble reading printed text. Or are all officials like this? If a trading enterprise is organized by the Chinese, this does not mean that the Chinese provided power support. On the contrary, it is interesting to win over people who know local customs, language and locality. Arm them and take them to share. This is how civilized peoples took the less civilized as allies - they lure some leader so that he bends other leaders. Avon, George 4 personally accepted the whole Maori leader Hongi Hiku and presented him with armor, did not disdain. According to this scheme, trade was carried out with the Indians, Africans, Bedouins and other Chukchi, and the Chinese had no need to reinvent the wheel.

                        >> But if you continue in the same spirit, you will soon come to the theory that the Red Army fought with the Sami (Nenets) in 41-45

                        Lol, great joke. Have you heard the joke about the Nenets toilet?
                        Well, not the point. Unlike you, I don't dismiss all theories out of the blue, but I also don't take them for granted without material evidence.
                        There is a lot of evidence that the attack on the USSR in 41 was carried out by the "Germans" in the sense of the soldiers of modern Germany. For example, economic documents, military orders and orders written in German. Documents seized in Germany. Personal documents of military personnel, which can be used to understand that they were mobilized in Germany.
                        And these are mass documents, and not single legends and treatises thrown in under unclear circumstances. And not only documents, but also material traces.
                        German weapons that are found by archaeologists, and the found German factories where they were produced (although they weren’t hidden to look for them). And not only weapons. German logistics is quite plausibly described by the officials, so there are no questions about how the Germans ended up near Moscow. As well as there are no questions why the Japanese could not be there in the same number.

                        Now let's check the Nenets. The population of the Nenets does not allow the mobilization of a mass army in several. million people. The Nenets had no production. They left no documents in the Nenets language.
                        Conclusion: the Nenets empire is the same phantom as the Mongol and Khazar ones. It turns out that you falsely slandered the Nenets in order to support the slander against the friendly Mongols. Are you not ashamed? belay

                        But that's not all. We have just seen that wars with the Germans in the 20th century are real. But we know from the works of officials that the word "German" at least until the end of the 16th century was used to refer to representatives of various European peoples. Therefore, all the considerations about the Germans in the 20th century do not prove in any way that the annalistic "Germans" of the 15-16th centuries are "Germans" in the sense of the inhabitants of modern Germany. And to understand who was who, more evidence is needed.

                        That's just in relation to the Mongols, Khazars, Tatars, and so on. for some reason this logic does not work, and for some reason the officials do not even admit that these names, like “Germans”, could designate other peoples in ancient times.

                        See how you manage each time to give examples that increasingly discredit the semi-official myths about the Eastern conquerors. bully

                        >> Yes, and what prevented Kublai to put road signs?

                        You didn’t understand, I don’t doubt the mental abilities of Khubilai (or his real prototype) at all. This I once again hinted at the similarity of your mentality with Mitrofanushkin, only he had geographers laughing
                        Since you don’t understand why trading platforms are needed smile
                      11. 0
                        5 February 2023 23: 21
                        For example, because the Mongolian horses had many wonderful qualities, but not the ability to gallop
                        For example, this is complete nonsense. laughing
                        Mongolian horses have excellent endurance; although they have small bodies, they can gallop 10 km without a break
                        Wikipedia
                        Such, then, is your nonsense, like your other notions.
                      12. +1
                        5 February 2023 23: 28
                        Self-quoting:

                        Quote: Evil Eye
                        But in any case, the postal speed in RI is the upper limit for a similar situation in MI. Slower could ride, faster not. And we will make a huge assumption to the officials, suppose that it was at this speed that the Mongolian couriers rode. Then you need to explain why even in this case it was impossible to manage anything from Shandu, or can you handle it yourself? winked


                        laughing
                      13. 0
                        5 February 2023 23: 37
                        There is no need to explain anything, except for one thing, how you came to the conclusion that Mongolian horses do not gallop. This is very interesting for understanding the phenomenon of "alternative" reality modeling. laughing
                      14. 0
                        5 February 2023 23: 48
                        There is cheese with holes, there is cheese without holes, and you have only holes without cheese. laughing
                      15. +1
                        6 February 2023 03: 13
                        Cantering and long cantering are two different things. Camels out there, too, know how to accelerate. For a few minutes, no more.
                      16. 0
                        6 February 2023 05: 28
                        Cantering and long cantering are two different things. Camels out there, too, know how to accelerate. For a few minutes, no more
                        AND? Next, what? Further, what are your arguments, which led to the conclusion that the Mongolian horses "for a long time" cannot gallop. Continue, so to speak, the thought chain.
                      17. +1
                        6 February 2023 14: 39
                        For what? I gave you a discount from the very beginning: for example, there were special racehorses for couriers. Even in this case, it was impossible to control anything from Shangdu.

                        If you really want to take me away, you can prove that Mongolian horses (local) can gallop for an hour and you don’t need to import anything. Will something change? It will be impossible to control anything from Shandu anyway.

                        I see no point in discussing minor things.
                      18. 0
                        6 February 2023 19: 25
                        If you so want to take me away,
                        I don't want to take you. I, however, clearly indicated that I have purely research goals:
                        There is no need to explain anything, except for one thing - how did you come to the conclusion that Mongolian horses do not gallop. This is very interesting for understanding the phenomenon of "alternative" reality modeling laughing
                        And, for some reason, you are embarrassed to clarify this. laughing
                      19. The comment was deleted.
                      20. 0
                        7 February 2023 00: 33
                        You write
                        Firstly, this is not just a gallop, but about a gallop in the context of traveling on relay horses. To do this, the horse must run from station to station, and there the messenger will be given a fresh one, and so on. That is, at least 20 kilometers
                        .
                        Here is what we can read about the gallop:
                        Horses rarely gallop more than 2-3 kilometers, because they quickly tire at this pace, although with a fairly slow gallop they can cover greater distances. At a slow canter, the horse's speed may not exceed 20 km / h.

                        Here's what we can learn about the gallop, actually Mongolian horses:
                        Mongolian horses have excellent endurance; although they have small bodies, they can gallop 10 km without a break

                        Here, in fact, are our boundary conditions from our reality.
                        Here is your output
                        For example, because the Mongolian horses had many wonderful qualities, but not the ability to gallop

                        So I'm curious, how did you get it?
                        For the third time I ask you if you believe in the life and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord

                        About Jesus Christ: all of his miracles are not enough to give at least some semblance of transparency and alignment of a digestible structure, the mess that boils in the heads of alternative historians.
                      21. 0
                        7 February 2023 02: 50
                        Explain for what reasons the official historians have appointed a clearly trading city as the capital of a vast empire.
                        However, I can guess. “So it is written in the books, read what is written in the books, but it is so in them, because there is some kind of medieval book in which this city is described precisely as the capital of the Mongol Empire.” Guessed
                        I have no idea how this stream of consciousness is generated in your head. From that, he suggested starting with a simpler situation with the gallop of Mongolian horses. If we can
                        using this simple example to figure out how you form introductory, reasoning, and conclusions, then, perhaps, and then, with a little hope of success, I can answer your question hi
                      22. +1
                        7 February 2023 03: 53
                        No, I already understood that you have something with cognitive abilities, but I actually already wrote it, try re-reading it again.

                        Quote: Evil Eye

                        First of all, it's not just a gallop, but about a gallop in the context of traveling on relay horses. To do this, the horse must run from station to station, and there the messenger will be given a fresh one, and so on. That is, at least 20 kilometers. That is, for about an hour the horse must run at a gallop, even if this is not the fastest gallop.


                        Since, I understand, it is difficult for you to read, I bolded the main idea.
                        And then you, without regaining consciousness, write yourself: “although they have small bodies, they can gallop 10 km without a break». That is, compared with the horses of the time of the All-Russian Emperor Nicholas, which nevertheless skipped from station to station for 30 km, the Mongolian ones have a three times less high-speed range. That is, you yourself, with your own hands, wrote exactly what I had in mind: Mongolian horses cannot gallop for a long time. Questions remained?
                        laughing

                        >> all his miracles are not enough

                        I asked you a simple direct question: believe it or not. For the fourth time, I will ask him again. It would be nice if you wrote directly: I don’t want to discuss religious issues, I would understand. But for some reason you constantly evade direct questions. Why? And yet, believe it or not?

                        >> perhaps, and then, with a little hope of success, I can answer your question

                        A simple question was asked: why did historians decide that Shangdu was the capital of MI. I didn't make my wording so complicated that I couldn't understand it at all. And yet, you dodge the question. Why do you always answer a question with a question? Are you by any chance Jewish? That would explain a lot smile
                      23. 0
                        7 February 2023 04: 36
                        A simple question was asked: why did historians decide that Shangdu was the capital of MI.
                        no historians decided this, Shangdu was the summer residence of Kublai Khan, the Mongol, the first emperor of the Yuan dynasty, he himself decided so, without historians.
                        it's not just a gallop, but about a gallop in context
                        that is what you wrote
                        Mongolian horses had many wonderful qualities, but not the ability to gallop
                        is it some kind of encrypted set of words, by which, you meant something completely different? Then our task with the analysis of the generation of thoughts in your head, of course, became more complicated. I need time to decide what we can do about this next...
                        That is, compared with the horses of the time of the All-Russian Emperor Nicholas, which nevertheless skipped from station to station for 30 km, the Mongolian ones have a three times less high-speed range.
                        yes, hint, horses in harness should trot and not gallop, though. apparently, in your case, this information to improve the situation with your perception of reality is of little significance. ..as well as the information that a European horse does not gallop more than 4 - 5 km.. ..
                      24. 0
                        7 February 2023 06: 01
                        But for some reason you constantly evade direct questions. Why? And yet, believe it or not?
                        Because it won't get us anywhere in our discus. If you have any hidden thoughts about this, then voice them. I do not propose to you to discuss the geometry of Minkowski, regarding the gallop of horses. About the Jews below on the topic there is a specialist. You can discuss with him.
                      25. +1
                        7 February 2023 09: 09
                        >> Shangdu was the summer residence of Kublai Khan, the Mongol, the first emperor of the Yuan Dynasty, he himself decided so, without historians.

                        Fine. How do you know that Khubilai (let's say for a second that he existed, was a Mongol, emperor and khan) decided so. What is your evidence? Cocainum? Or did you fly into the past in a time machine and film everything? laughing

                        >> that is what you wrote
                        Mongolian horses had many wonderful qualities, but not the ability to gallop
                        is it some kind of encrypted set of words, by which, you meant something completely different?

                        My dear, if it is difficult for you to understand the written text, do not hesitate to ask, I will gladly explain all the difficult points to you. I'm going to self-quote again:

                        Quote: Evil Eye
                        Do you think St. Petersburg is close to Moscow? For the pre-industrial era? Oh well. In the Russian Empire such a distance (a couple of hundred km) COURIER could travel in a day. On the highway, on relay horses. This is on sledges or on carriages of the 19th century, which are a little more complicated than the carriages of the 19th century. Explain further or do it yourself? And this is a courier or the “emperor” himself, and the troops are not on the messengers (although it’s hard for you to understand the difference between postal horses and ordinary ones, well, at least read the comments on “Eugene Onegin”, it explains there).


                        Is the context clear? You obviously don't understand. And by the way, note that I used the word "day", not "day".

                        >> yes, hint, horses in harness should trot and not gallop

                        Then the courier would travel not 200 km a day, but 150 maximum. This means that Tyrtyrnet is lying about the maximum speeds of postal horses in the Republic of Ingushetia, and information would reach Shandu not in a day, but in two or three. Well, ok, I don’t care, I already gave your imaginary Mongols a head start from the very beginning, and you carefully cut it down and look for more and more evidence that the capital could not be there. But for some reason you don't agree with me. You are directly Lermontov's demon, all so contradictory laughing am

                        >> information that the European horse does not gallop more than 4 - 5 km.. ..

                        You want to say that in the 19th century, when there were a lot of breeds with different qualities, including hybrid ones, between local and imported horses, there was a kind of single “European horse”. well, OK

                        >> Because it won't get us anywhere in our discus.

                        We fix: the officials prefer to evade direct simple questions. They only guess how holey their position is bully

                        >> If you have some hidden thoughts about this, then voice them.

                        The considerations are simple: do you recognize Jesus, Moses, James, and so on as historical figures or not? How much easier.
                      26. 0
                        7 February 2023 16: 32
                        Me: yes, hint, horses in harness should trot and not gallop

                        You: Then the courier would have traveled not 200 km in a day, but 150 maximum.
                        laughing So where does "then" come from? If the horse is galloping, then the rider moves faster, and the carriage, on the contrary, is slower and with dangerous buildup.
                        I am:
                        information that the European horse does not gallop more than 4 - 5 km.. ..

                        You reply:
                        You want to say that in the 19th century, when there were a lot of breeds with different qualities, including hybrid ones, between local and imported horses, there was a kind of single “European horse”.
                        winked
                        I :
                        Because it won't get us anywhere in our discus. If you have any hidden thoughts about this, then voice them.

                        You reply:
                        The considerations are simple: do you recognize Jesus, Moses, James, and so on as historical figures or not? How much easier.
                        laughing
                        And you also demand from me that I conduct an educational program for you on the history of the Yuan. Trust me, it's useless laughing
    2. +3
      2 February 2023 21: 23
      One maxim such as the absence of metals and swamp ore - I don’t want to listen further. It is strange that the author did not bother to read books on the history of metallurgy in order to draw such conclusions. Lots of videos on the internet.
  36. +2
    3 February 2023 09: 48
    On the territory of modern southeastern Ukraine there was a copper smelting center, the ore of which was brought there from the foothills of the Caucasus.

    We take the most accessible in the "ancient times" quarry (open) method of extracting copper ore from the earth's interior. It is used for the extraction of copper ores in the case of the location of the layer of the developed mineral at a depth of not more than 500 m.
    Despite a number of problems associated with the development of a large area, the movement of huge masses of waste rock, the involvement of a significant amount of technical means and the harmful impact on the environment, the method is characterized by a fairly high efficiency and the absence of significant losses of minerals.
    The ratio of metal output to mined ore is: 1:200.
    That is, one ton of copper is obtained from 200 hundred tons of ore.
    Excuse me, how did they deliver copper ore "from the foothills of the Caucasus" to the territory, apparently, not yet southeastern Ukraine, but to the territory of southwestern Russia. Echelons? Motor ships?
    The victorious Muslims were stopped by the forces of the Khazar kingdom...
    There can hardly be any doubt that if it were not for the Khazars, who inhabited the regions north of the Caucasus, then Byzantium, the stronghold of European civilization in the east, would have been outflanked by the Arabs, and then the history of Christianity and Islam would be very different from what we know today.

    Interesting statement! Is it okay that the official version of history claims that the Arabs captured Sicily, Crete, besieged Constantinople? After all, if the Arabs besieged Constantinople, then they were on the European shore of the Bosporus, right?
    And if the Arabs could easily be in numbers sufficient for the siege of Constantinople on the European shore of the Bosporus, then what the hell for them in order to "get into Europe correctly" and "get around the flanks" - cross the Derbent passage? What, normal heroes always go around?
    https://yandex.ru/video/preview/5938832204602639187

    Many historians doubted the authenticity of the letter of the Khazar king.
    And they do it right. The style of the "letter" shows that this is a purely artistic work.
    1. +2
      3 February 2023 10: 12
      Quote: Seal
      Excuse me, how was copper ore delivered "from the foothills of the Caucasus"

      You can load it on a donkey, you can load it on a horse, or you can load it on a camel. You can throw a bag over your shoulders and carry ... winked

      Quote: Seal
      Arabs captured Sicily, Crete, besieged Constantinople? After all, if the Arabs besieged Constantinople, then they were on the European shore of the Bosporus, right?

      Sicily and Crete are not strongholds of European civilization. Not at that time, not today. Did they take Constantinople? Or Rome?

      Quote: Seal
      for the extraction of copper ores in the case of the location of the layer of the developed mineral at a depth of not more than 500 m

      You probably have little idea how copper is mined. In fact, you have absolutely no idea...
      1. 0
        3 February 2023 18: 39
        Quote: Luminman
        You probably have little idea how copper is mined. In fact, you have absolutely no idea...





        Quote: Luminman
        Sicily and Crete are not strongholds of European civilization. Not at that time, not today. Did they take Constantinople?

        What difference does it make whether they took it or not. The main thing is that the Arabs visited Europe. Without any long-range "bypasses from the flanks." What's the difference, a stronghold or not a stronghold? Even the backyards. But the Arabs, according to the official version of history, got to Sicily and Crete directly, and not by going around the Caspian Sea.
        Quote: Luminman
        You can load it on a donkey, you can load it on a horse, or you can load it on a camel. You can throw the bag over your shoulders and carry it..

        Flag in your hands hi
        1. 0
          4 February 2023 00: 18
          These are your pictures of medieval copper spears, and the man in the excavation is none other than Yshbara-kokhan?
    2. +2
      3 February 2023 12: 47
      Sorry to chime in, but you're not quite right. Ores - they are actually different in terms of metal content. When prospectors started mining copper in the USA, they had ore with a copper content of under 70% plus pure nuggets.
      It is logical that the extraction of raw materials begins with the "cream", and not with picking out poor ores from pits 500 m deep.
  37. The comment was deleted.
  38. 0
    3 February 2023 18: 35
    Quote from Evil Eye
    When prospectors started mining copper in the USA, they had ore with a copper content of under 70% plus pure nuggets.
    Come on. There are no such ores. Ores with a copper content of 3-4% are considered rich. If an ore with a high content of copper came out somewhere on the surface, then it was so rare and on average these were outputs of a very small amount. Nuggets? They are rare and run out very quickly.
    For example :
    California.
    Copper was first discovered in California in 1840, in Los Angeles County.
    Mining began in 1854, when a small amount of copper was mined at a mine in the town of Soledad.

    The famous Napoleon Mine at Copperopolis in Calaveras County was opened in 1860 and was so productive that it caused a boom in other copper mining operations from 1862 to 1866. The boom stimulated the development of copper mines along the Piedmont Copper Belt, a 250-mile zone of copper deposits in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada stretching from Butte County in the northwest to Fresno County in the southeast. Mining almost ceased after 1868, when the fine oxidized ore was exhausted and the deeper sulfide ores were found to be poorer in gold and silver. In the foothill belt, 91 thousand tons of copper and 23 thousand tons of zinc were mined.

    As you can see, the boom only lasted 8 years. And, as I believe, the cream was skimmed in the first year. Then, for 7 years, ore with a high copper content was mined. Then electricity appeared and they began to mine ore with a copper content of 1,5 - 2,0%. Then less and less. In the end, they stopped altogether.
    With the advent of electrification, interest in copper began to increase in the late 1880s. Copper mining in the area has resumed; the mines were drained and a smelter was built.

    The mines at Copperopolis continued to produce, with the years during the world wars being the most prosperous. After the 2nd World War the last copper mines closed and never opened again.
    1. +1
      3 February 2023 19: 19
      You should keep in mind that the amers had the needs and the ability to sip the cream in 8 years, and in ancient times the production volumes were different, it took longer))
  39. 0
    4 February 2023 03: 29
    Quote: Luminman
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Do you think Svyatoslav could write?

    Perhaps he could put a cross? wink

    Definitely! drinks
  40. 0
    4 February 2023 03: 31
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    At the time of Rurik there were no coats of arms. They appeared in Europe after at least two hundred years. And the coat of arms of Staraya Ladoga is in the XNUMXst century in general.

    Really! hi
    1. 0
      7 February 2023 03: 09
      Yes, and Rurik himself is a dark matter. It was not for nothing that Caesar said: "And you are Rurik?", i.e. Brutus laughing, in other matters and with himself, this Guy, the matter is even darker laughing
  41. +1
    4 February 2023 09: 01
    Quote: Lewww
    Your theory is interesting
    Well then, the Romans, Greeks and Arabs are also Slovene laughing


    Also, they are Jews.
    Because they also had a religion. The word "Jew" comes from the Greek "iu deus", i.e. "knowing God".
    Each nation (estate) in its self-name highlights the feature that it considers the most significant for itself ("Franks" = "free").
  42. +1
    4 February 2023 09: 10
    Quote from Kuziming
    1. There are iron ore deposits, from Belgorod to Kerch. Moreover, in Kerch there are ores up to 90% iron content. One trouble - in the era of the early Slavs, these territories were controlled by nomads.
    2. Swamp iron. Sounds good, there are videos on YouTube. Yes, here's another misfortune - the most severe iron deficiency in the Russian village in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Chekhov has a story about how a peasant unscrewed nuts from the rails for the sake of iron. During the period of collectivization, they could be sent to Siberia for an iron plow. Somehow the swamp iron did not help to solve these problems.


    1. Not a problem at all. Nobody canceled barter trade.
    By the way, which nomads controlled these territories? Not Scythians, by any chance? But these "nomads" were skilled metallurgists and blacksmiths, which is not very typical for nomads.
    2. The most severe shortage was caused by the highest demand for the metal, and hence its widespread use. And, of course, "scream iron" could no longer satisfy the growing needs, including due to the depletion of its reserves.
  43. +1
    4 February 2023 09: 17
    Quote: depressant
    I meant the peoples inhabiting Siberia. There is a version that the Japanese came from Altai - a partial similarity of the language. But Altai remained primitive, and Japan, neighboring China, technologically exploded. As if they looked, they learned, they began to give out their own. You say, why didn't the Ainu learn?


    As for Altai - how to look. People have been living there since ancient times, and settlements have been found there.
    I myself am sure that Altai, just (along with the Urals) is one of the most ancient centers of civilization.
    Both China and Japan rushed largely thanks to India.
    Ainu? It was from the Ainu that the Japanese adopted a lot, including their "Bushido" - the samurai code. The Ainu were a developed people, but very small in number, therefore they could not resist the ancestors of the Japanese.
  44. +1
    4 February 2023 09: 26
    Quote: Luminman
    Everything is the opposite. From that, a power is always successful in relation to the military, as long as it does not have problems of a critical nature inside ...


    Oh really?
    Only those who are already in the cemetery or close to the same have no problems.
    Problems and contradictions are the driving force of development.
    And who does not develop, does not make breakthroughs - he can forget about the notorious "passionarity".

    So to speak, "the unity and struggle of opposites." Or were there no problems in ancient Rome? And in today's USA?
    It is those who have a lot of problems who are trying to pour out aggression outside ... sometimes successfully.
  45. +2
    6 February 2023 00: 01
    The Khazar Khaganate most likely never existed as a state, with all the attributes of power, but arose as needed, as a military union of independent states (tribes). This is supported by the existence today of the independent states of Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Slovakia, Slovenia, and so on. The strange thing is that there is no and never existed in Eurasia the state education of Jews. This is despite the fact that the official historians of Israel claim the leading role of the Jews in the Khazar Khaganate. In fact, today, there are at most a few small settlements of Jews in the Caucasus and in the Crimea. The condition of the isolated settlement of Jewish refugees, during the period of the Tatar-Mongol invasion, in the cities of ancient Rus', exclusively in the places indicated by the princes and on the conditions established by the princes, looks more than strange for the titular, ruling nation of the Khazar Khaganate. It is characteristic that the Jews have significant religious, folklore, anthropological, cultural, linguistic differences in relation to the surrounding peoples. The most important thing is the genetic incompatibility of mixed couples, which indicates the absence of cohabitation in the same territory. Many authoritative experts in the field of medicine, including Professor Savelyev, speak about the problems of genetic compatibility when creating families between Jews and Europeans (whether Western or Eastern).
  46. +1
    6 February 2023 12: 55
    Quote: Keer
    Further, what are your arguments, which led to the conclusion that the Mongolian horses "for a long time" cannot gallop.
    Only you could come to that conclusion. For horses do not gallop. Horses are galloping. But the main way of movement of Mongolian horses is a step. Here they go horses.
    Of course, horses are not able to gallop for a long time. Pay attention to the fact that in the traditional Mongolian races, on which it is the horses that ride, very light children under the age of 16-17 act as riders.
    Adult Mongols compete in Kok-boru, a folk game in which riders compete for a goat carcass. Participants must not only snatch the trophy from the opponent, but also throw it into the goal. The writer Chingiz Aitmatov called this game goat-breaking, although no one tears the goat apart.
    1. 0
      6 February 2023 19: 49
      that Mongolian horses "for a long time" cannot gallop.
      Only you could come to that conclusion. For horses do not gallop. Horses are galloping.
      "To go at a gallop", "To go at a trot", These are common terms, you would not be dishonored.
      I explain to you that open-pit mining in the Middle Ages did not fundamentally differ from modern,
      , well, yes, in the sense that they dug, both then and now, the Earth, not Mars. laughing only here, one snag, and the main one, is the metal content in the ore, at half a percent, which you accepted for your ridiculous calculations.
  47. 0
    6 February 2023 13: 15
    Quote: Keer
    These are your pictures of medieval copper spears, and the man in the excavation is none other than Yshbara-kokhan?
    You can see who's in the photo. I explain to you that open-pit mining in the Middle Ages did not fundamentally differ from the modern one shown in the photo above. Only the excavations (quarries) were smaller (both in diameter and in depth), instead of dump trucks they used ... well, probably donkeys with carts, and instead of excavators - picks and shovels. Here is a photo from the 1860s, USA.

    And you thought that you wrote something funny, right?
    1. 0
      6 February 2023 23: 58
      The ratio of metal output to mined ore is: 1:200.
      That is, one ton of copper is obtained from 200 hundred tons of ore.
      with such copper content in the ore, technologies and resources from4
      millennia BC, until the end of the second half of the 2nd of ours, they did not allow to extract copper from ores in commercial quantities. Thus, you can still give an alternative on such a topic that there was no Bronze Age. This is a rich reservoir for fabrications laughing . Don't thank.
    2. 0
      7 February 2023 02: 14
      And if the Bronze Age hangs, then. and the initial, and, the ancient and middle, and the new kingdoms of Egypt hang, with Mesopotamia, at the same time, that is, all the so-called millennia in. With. , and taking into account the fact that the Rosetta Stone was concocted by agents of the Vatican in the second century BC, do you feel what a field for sensation has grown? Write books, in short, and send my five percent for the idea to the fund of Mongolian horses so that they can finally be trained to gallop.
      1. +2
        7 February 2023 03: 54
        They hang, of course, but not for this reason.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +2
            7 February 2023 08: 39
            Fix: Officials have no arguments, except for unfunny gags Yes
            1. 0
              7 February 2023 16: 40
              Let's fix: the official has no arguments, except for the unfunny gags yes
              Supporters of the flat earth theory say the same thing about officials laughing
  48. +3
    6 February 2023 13: 28
    Hasdai ben Shapruta wrote a letter in Hebrew addressed to King Joseph, then ruling in Khazaria, handed it over with the Radanite merchants * and received a letter from Joseph written in Hebrew, where the ruler told him in detail about the history and geography of his country and about how his ancestors converted to Judaism, about their relations with powerful neighbors - Byzantium, the Arab Caliphate and the Rus. Many historians doubted the authenticity of the letter of the Khazar king.

    What else is known about this correspondence?
    The letter was written between 954 and 961. First, Hasdai sent him with his servant Isaac ben Nathan to Constantinople, but the Byzantine emperor refused to let the ambassadors pass through his territory. Then the letter was delivered by means of Jewish merchants by a circuitous route through Hungary, Rus' and Bulgaria. The Khazar ruler received it and wrote a response message. Copies Both monuments have survived to this day. There is also a fragment of a private report compiled for Hasdai by a court Khazar Jew. These letters are of unique historical value, as they are the only known proper Khazar documents.

    Please pay attention to the inconsistency.
    On the one hand, it says These letters have a unique historical value, as they are the only known Khazar documents proper.
    But on the other hand, it is indicated that it is not the letters themselves that are stored, and their copies.
    And again the same question arises: copies from what "survived to this day"?
    Copy from original?
    Copy from the first copy (the first copy is a copy from the original)
    Copy from the second copy (second copy, copy from the first copy)
    A copy from a third copy?
    A copy from the thirty-third copy?
    Nobody will answer this question.
    But all correct historians are obliged to consider that the copies that have come down to our times are copies from the original, and therefore these mines have exactly the same value as if they were original documents. That is, from the plane of knowledge, we again move into the plane of faith.
    Historians believethat the surviving copies are copies of the originals. hi
    And we are assured of this. hi
    1. +2
      6 February 2023 14: 40
      Yes
      All unique "copies from copies" not related to other documents should be considered as apocrypha.
    2. +2
      6 February 2023 23: 41
      It is a pity that Tsar Joseph did not share the details of his learning Hebrew at school, he was probably a prankster, he was naughty in the classroom. Such minute details of sending a letter in 954-961 are touching. Archives used to work, not like today. Even the Word of Igor's Campaign could not be preserved. And here is the name of the servant and the report and routes, whatever you want, please for viewing. The main thing is that the information does not cause doubts, how can one not trust this. But only this and nothing more. Even coins with the coat of arms of Rurik turn out to be Khazar, not Tmutarakan. Which would seem more logical, but no, it is impossible, because the sources have not been preserved and there are no reports with the names of the servants.
  49. +1
    7 February 2023 14: 41
    Quote: Keer
    to extract copper from ores in commercial quantities.
    And yet.

    In order not to argue with you on an essentially empty place, I agree to proceed from 3% copper content. That is, 100 tons of ore will give 3 tons of copper. What does it fundamentally change? Unless your historical fantasies are made even less realistic.
    1. 0
      7 February 2023 17: 32
      Why information about the state of affairs at the beginning of the 20th century?
      In order not to argue with you on an essentially empty place, I agree to proceed from 3% copper content
      laughing Have you decided to bargain with me? Then my first word - 87%
  50. 0
    9 February 2023 13: 25
    Quote: Keer
    And you also demand from me that I conduct an educational program for you on the history of the Yuan. Trust me, it's useless

    Exactly. Completely useless. For your confidence that you "know exactly the history of the Yuan" is based not only on sand, but even on water. And in very dirty water. And listening to you is masochistic. Just show at least one authentic document of the Yuan Dynasty, which has come down to the time of historical materialism. Only clearly dated precisely "the same time." And I hope you remember the difference between documentary historical sources and narrative historical sources?
    And I hope you have not forgotten that the positivist paradigm in source studies is most consistently developed in the work of Sh.-V. Langlois and C. Segnobos "Introduction to the Study of History" (1898), which is based on a course of lectures they delivered at the Sorbonne in the 1896/97 academic year. Sh.-V. Langlois (1863-1929) - medievalist historian, professor at the Sorbonne, holder of a diploma from the National School of Charters, director of the National Archives (1912-1929), member (since 1917), then president (since 1925) of the Academy of inscriptions and belles-lettres . C. Segnobos (1854–1942) – professor at the Sorbonne (1890), began his research activity with the study of ancient and medieval history, later specialized in modern history, author of the work “Political History of Modern Europe” (1897).
    "Introduction to the Study of History" begins with a formula that over time has become an aphorism:
    History is written according to documents. Documents are traces left by the thoughts and actions of people who once lived. <…>.
    Every thought and every deed that has left no direct or indirect trace, or whose visible trace has disappeared, is forever lost to history, as if it had never existed. <…>.

    Nothing can replace documents: there are none, there is no history
  51. +1
    9 February 2023 13: 26
    Quote: Keer
    Have you decided to bargain with me? Then my first word - 87%
    Do you think you wrote something smart? Or something funny 7
  52. +1
    9 February 2023 13: 36
    Quote: Keer
    "To go at a gallop", "To go at a trot", These are common terms, you would not be dishonored.
    Yeah. Same common usage as "
    Dad, Mikhailo is not ours runs to the top.
    Sholokhov. hi
    They don't say "gallop" or "trot." Commands are given “Trot - march” or “Gallop – march”.
    Sometimes the term "went" is used. The cavalry was trotting. Especially if the conversation is about an attack. But everyone goes on the attack: infantrymen, horsemen, tanks and even planes.
    1. 0
      13 February 2023 06: 15
      .Quote: Keer
      "To go at a gallop", "To go at a trot", These are common terms, you would not be dishonored.

      You: Yeah. As common as

      Your next thoughts in response: Don't say "gallop" or "trot". Commands are given “Trot - march” or “Gallop – march”.

      Horse riding instructions:
      If you watch a horse galloping in a circle, it will seem that every beat begins with the front inside leg. In fact, the inside front leg is carried...When the horse is already cantering correctly from the left leg, the rider needs to keep the outside leg behind the girth while controlling the horse's outside hind leg
      etc
      . Your problem is that you think that things can be figured out speculatively, without particularly straining... That’s why you jump around, read documents diagonally, and completely invent their content, instead of thoughtfully going step by step. Instead, you prefer to persist and disgrace yourself for something. And with Yuan it will be even worse than with gallop. . That's why I'm sorry. hi
    2. 0
      13 February 2023 06: 55
      .Just show me at least one authentic document from the Yuan Dynasty that has survived to the time of historical materialism.

      yes easily.
      .mid 13th century, Genghis Khan's empire expanded its influence from Korea to China, and through Central Asia to Russia and Eastern Europe. The Yuan Dynasty was established when China fell under Mongol rule in 1279. Tibet was made one of the administrative regions under the patronage and military protection of Mongol Emperor Kublai Khan.

      The records in this collection comprise 22 invaluable original documents, including imperial edicts issued by the Yuan Emperors, religious edicts issued by the Imperial Preceptors and orders from Tibetan political rulers written in the Tibetan language and the rare Phags-pa script, a set of phonetic symbols invented by Phags-pa Lama. Phagspa script was used as a unified national script for writing the disparate languages ​​including Mongolian, Chinese, Tibetan, Uighur, Turkic, etc. of different ethnic groups within the Yuen Empire. Its use was discontinued after the fall of the Yuan Dynasty in 1368.
      .

      [Center]

      It will only be of no use to you
  53. 0
    23 February 2023 01: 13
    Quote: lucul
    probably on the ruins of Itil he wrote: "I am satisfied with the ruins of Khazaria."

    Heh, heh...

    Compare the Khazar tamga (generic family sign, seal) and the Ukrainian trident))))

    This symbol is widespread in the ornament of Scandinavian products, I also saw Scythian decorations in the form of eagles of a similar shape from an excavated mound, and what you showed is not a Khazar tamga at all and is unlikely to be related to antiquity at all. Find out what tamga is, and don’t replicate any nonsense. Otherwise, some woodpeckers manage to find “tamga” on Scythian bronze arrowheads, passing it off as archaic symbols for good luck or marks of a master. As for the coat of arms of Staraya Ladoga, it is not ancient, but modern - this is the same attempt to explain the origin of the trident, which continues in Ukraine. And by the way, in pre-Mongol Rus' there was also a version of the bident, including coins with it. So, two-prongs can also be seen on Bosporan coins with the names of Scythian rulers! The Bosporan kingdom was located approximately in the same place where the Tauri, also known from the Romans and Byzantines as the Tauro-Scythians, lived, and where the ancient Russian Tmutarakan was located. Excerpt from the encyclopedia: Tauro-Scythians are a people whose name was first found by the Roman geographer Ptolemy. He placed the Tauro-Scythians in the lower reaches of the Dnieper, but most other Roman and Byzantine authors believed that this tribe lived in the Crimea. Byzantine historian Leo the Deacon in the second half of the XNUMXth century. was the first to use this ethnonym in relation to Russians.

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