Were they the best?

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The huge flow of information that has literally collapsed lately on all of us sometimes plays an extremely negative role in the development of the thinking of the children who are replacing us. And it cannot be said that this information is false. But in its “naked” form, without a rational explanation, it sometimes carries in itself a monstrous and in its essence simply destructive character.

How can this be?

I will give one example.

Already more than one generation of boys in our country has grown with the firm conviction that our illustrious pilots Ivan Kozhedub and Alexander Pokryshkin are the best aces of the past war. And no one ever argued with that. Neither us nor abroad.

But one day I bought a children's book in a store “Aviation and aeronautics ”from the encyclopedic series“ I Know the World ”by a very famous publisher. The book, released in a circulation of thirty thousand copies, turned out to be really quite "informative" ...

Here, for example, in the “Cheerful Arithmetic” section, quite eloquent figures are given concerning air battles during the Great Patriotic War. I quote literally: “Three times Heroes of the Soviet Union, AI fighter pilots Pokryshkin and I.N. Kozhedub shot down respectively 59 and 62 enemy aircraft. But the German ace E. Hartman shot down during the war 352 aircraft! And he was not alone. In addition to him in the Luftwaffe were such masters of air battles as G. Barkhorn (301 shot down aircraft), G. Rall (275), O. Kittel (267) ... In total, the 104 pilots of the German Air Force had more than a hundred aircraft shot down each , and the top ten destroyed a total of 2588 enemy aircraft! ”

Soviet ace, fighter pilot, Hero of the Soviet Union, Mikhail Baranov. Stalingrad, 1942, Mr. Mikhail Baranov - one of the best fighter pilots of the Second World War, the most productive Soviet fighter pilot, Hero of the Soviet Union, Mikhail Baranov. Stalingrad, 1942 g. Mikhail Baranov - one of the best fighter pilots of the Second World War, the most effective at the time of his death, and many of his victories were won in the initial, most difficult period of the war. If it were not for his accidental death, he would have been the same glorified pilot, as Pokryshkin or Kozhedubkov-aces of the Second World War.

It is clear that any child who saw such numbers of air victories would immediately think that it was not ours at all, but the German pilots who were the best aces of the world, and our Ivanov had oh how far they were (by the way, the authors For some reason, the aforementioned publications did not provide data on the achievements of the best pilot aces of other countries: American Richard Bong, Briton James Johnson and Frenchman Pierre Klosterman with their 40, 38 and 33 aerial victories, respectively). The next thought that flashes in the minds of the guys, of course, will be that the Germans were flying on much more advanced aircraft. (It must be said that during the survey, in a similar way, not even schoolchildren responded to the airborne victory figures presented, but students from one of Moscow's universities).

But how do you generally treat such seemingly blasphemous figures?

It is clear that any student, if he is interested in this topic, will climb into the "Internet". What will he find there? It is easy to check ... We type in the search engine the phrase "The best ace of the Second World War."

The result appears quite expected: a portrait of a blond Erich Hartman hung with iron crosses is displayed on the monitor, and the whole page is replete with phrases like: “German pilots, especially those who fought on the Eastern Front are considered to be the best pilots of the Second World War ...”

Here are the ones on! Not only did the Germans turn out to be the best aces in the world, but most of all they didn’t beat the British, the Americans, or the French with the Poles, but our guys.

So has the true truth been laid out in the cognitive book and on the covers of exercise books the knowledge of the uncle and aunts that carry the children? That's just what they wanted to say? What we had such careless pilots? Probably not. But why the authors of many publications and information hanging on the pages of the “Internet”, citing a mass of seemingly interesting facts, did not bother to explain to readers (especially young ones): where did these figures come from and what they mean.

Perhaps some readers from the further story seem uninteresting. After all, this topic has been repeatedly discussed on the pages of serious aviation publications. And with this, everything is clear. Should I repeat? That's just to the simple boys of our country (given the circulation of specialized technical journals), this information never reached. And it will not come. Why are there boys. Show the above figures to the school teacher. stories and ask him about what he thinks about it, and what will he tell the children about it? But the boys, seeing on the back of the student's notebook the results of the air victories of Hartman and Pokryshkin, will surely ask him about it. I am afraid that the result will shake you to the depths of the soul ... That is why the material presented below is not even an article, but rather a request to you, dear readers, to help your children (and maybe even their teachers) to deal with some of the “stunning "Numbers. Especially since on the eve of 9 May, we will all again be reminded of that distant war.

Where did these numbers come from?

And really, where did such a figure, for example, like HNTMX’s Hartman victory in aerial combat, come from? Who can confirm it?

It turns out no one. Moreover, the entire aviation community has long known that historians took Erich Hartmann's letters from the letters to the bride. So the first thing to ask is: isn’t the young man embellished his military merit? Some German pilots say that at the final stage of the war Hartmann was simply attributed to aerial victories for propaganda purposes, because along with the mythical miracle the crashing Hitler regimeweapons needed a superhero. Interestingly, many of the victories claimed by Hartman are not supported by losses on our side.

The study of archival documents of the Second World War period convincingly proved that absolutely all branches of the military in all countries of the world were sinned with subscriptions. It was not by chance that in our army, soon after the start of the war, the principle of the strictest registration of enemy aircraft was introduced. The plane was considered shot down only after ground troops discovered its wreckage and thus confirmed the aerial victory.

The Germans, like the Americans, didn’t need to confirm ground troops. The pilot could arrive and report: "I shot down the plane." The main thing that kinopulemeta recorded at least hit bullets and shells in the target. Sometimes it allowed to gain a lot of "points". It is known that during the “Battle for England” the Germans declared 3050 shot down by British aircraft, while the British really lost only 910.

From here it is necessary to draw the first conclusion: our shot down airplanes were really counted. Germans - aerial victories, sometimes not even leading to the destruction of the enemy aircraft. And often these victories were mythical.

Why our aces did not have 300 and more air victories?

All that we have mentioned just above is by no means the mastery of the pilot-aces. Let's consider the following question: could the German pilots even bring down the declared number of aircraft? And if they could, then why?

Were they the best?
A.I. Pokryshkin, G.K. Zhukov and I.N. Kozhedub


Oddly enough, in principle, having more air victories than 300 and Hartman, and Barkhorn, and other German pilots, in principle, could. And it must be said that many of them were doomed to become aces, since they were the real hostages of the Hitlerite command, who left them to the war. And they fought, as a rule, from the first to the last day.

Aces pilots of England, the United States and the Soviet Union command and treasured. The leadership of the air force listed thought it this way: once the pilot shot down an 40-50 enemy aircraft, it means that he is a very experienced pilot who can teach dozens of talented young people to master the flight skills. And let each of them hit at least a dozen enemy planes. Then in the sum of the destroyed aircraft it will turn out much more than if they were knocked down by the professional remaining at the front.

Recall that our best fighter pilot Alexander Pokryshkin already in 1944 year, the Air Force Command banned participation in air battles altogether, instructing him to command the aviation division. And it turned out to be correct. By the end of the war, many pilots from his unit had more than 50 confirmed air victories on their combat scores. So, Nikolai Gulaev shot down 57 German aircraft. Grigory Rechkalov - 56. Fifty enemy planes were recorded by Dmitry Glinka.

The command of the American Air Force did likewise, having recalled its best ace Richard Bong from the front.

It must be said that many Soviet pilots could not become aces only because there was often no enemy in front of them.

Each pilot was attached to his unit, and therefore to a specific sector of the front.

But the Germans were different. Experienced pilots were constantly transferred from one sector of the front to another. Each time they were at the hottest point, in the thick of things. For example, Ivan Kozhedub for all the war only 330 once rose into the sky and spent 120 air battles, while Hartman made 1425 sorties and participated in 825 air battles. Yes, our pilot, with all the desire could not even see in the sky as many German planes as Hartmann caught in sight! By the way, having become famous asas, the Luftwaffe pilots did not receive indulgence from death. Literally every day they had to participate in air battles. So it turned out that they fought until his death. And only captivity or the end of the war could save them from death. Only a few of the Luftwaffe aces survive. Hartman and Barkhorn are just lucky. They became famous only because they miraculously survived. But the fourth in terms of performance of Germany's German Otto Kittel died during an air battle with Soviet fighters in February 1945. Earlier, the most famous ace in Germany, Walter Novotny, met his death (in 1944, he was the first of the Luftwaffe pilots to bring his combat score to 250 air victories). Hitler's command, awarding the pilot all the highest orders of the Third Reich, instructed him to lead the connection of the first (still raw and unfinished) Me-262 jet fighters and threw the famous ace on the most dangerous part of the air war - repelling attacks on Germany by American heavy bombers. The pilot's fate was sealed.

By the way, Erich Hartman Hitler also wanted to put on a fighter jet, but the intelligent guy wriggled out of this dangerous situation, having managed to prove to the authorities that he would be more confused if he was put back on the old reliable Bf 109. This decision allowed Hartman to save his life from certain death and become, in the end, the best ace in Germany.

The most important proof of the fact that our pilots were in no way inferior to the German asses in the skill of air battles is eloquently shown by some figures that abroad do not really like to be remembered, and some of our journalists from the “free” press who take to write about aviation, just do not know.

For example, aviation historians know that the most productive fighter squadron of the Luftwaffe, who fought on the Eastern Front, was the elite 54-I Air Group Green Heart, which on the eve of the war collected the best aces of Germany. So, from the 112 pilots of the 54 squadron, who invaded 22 on June 1941, into the airspace of our Motherland, only four survived to the end of the war! In total, the 2135 fighters of this squadron remained to lie in the form of scrap metal in the vast space from Ladoga to Lviv. But it was precisely 54-I squadron that stood out among other Luftwaffe fighter squadrons in that during the war years it had the lowest level of casualties in aerial combat.

It is interesting to note another little-known fact, to which few people pay attention, but which very well characterizes both our and German pilots: by the end of March 1943, when the Germans still dominated the air, bright “green hearts” were proudly shining on the sides of the Messerschmitt and Focke Wolfs of the 54 Squadron, the Germans painted it with matte gray-green paint so as not to lead the Soviet pilots into the temptation, who considered it a matter of honor to “dump” some vaunted ace.

Which plane is better?

Anyone who was interested in the history of aviation to one degree or another probably had to hear or read the statements of the “experts” that the German aces had more victories not only because of their skills, but also because they flew the best airplanes.

No one argues with the fact that the pilot, flying on a more advanced aircraft, will have a certain advantage in battle.

Hauptmann Erich Hartman (Erich Hartmann) (19.04.1922 - 20.09.1993) with his commander, Major Gerhard Barkhorn (Gerhard Barkhorn) (20.05.1919 - 08.01.1983) for studying the map. II./JG52 (2-I group of the 52-th Fighter Squadron). E. Hartmann and G. Barkhorn are the most productive pilots of the Second World War, who had 352 and 301 aerial victories on their combat scores, respectively. In the lower left corner of the picture - autograph E. Hartmann.

In any case, a pilot of a faster plane can always catch up with the enemy, and if necessary, get out of the battlefield ...

But what is interesting is that the whole world experience of air wars suggests that in an air battle it is usually not the aircraft that is better that wins, but the one in which the best pilot sits. Naturally, all this applies to aircraft of the same generation.

Although the German Messerschmitts (especially at the beginning of the war) were superior to our MiGs, Yaks and LaGGi on a number of technical indicators, it turned out that in the real conditions of a total war that was carried out on the Eastern Front, their technical superiority was not so obvious.

The German aces at the beginning of the war on the Eastern Front gained their main victories thanks to the experience gained during previous military campaigns in the skies over Poland, France, and England. At the same time, the majority of Soviet pilots (with a few exceptions for those who managed to make war in Spain and Khalkhin Gol) did not have any combat experience at all.

But a well-trained pilot, who knows the merits of both his own aircraft and the enemy’s aircraft, could always impose his air combat tactics on the enemy.

On the eve of the war, our pilots just began to master the newest fighters of the Yak-1, MiG-3 and LaGG-3 type. Not having the necessary tactical experience, solid skills in the management of the aircraft, not knowing how to shoot, they still went into battle. And therefore suffered heavy losses. Neither their courage nor heroism could help. It was necessary just to gain experience. And this took time. But there was no time for that in 1941.

But those of the pilots who survived the brutal air battles of the initial period of the war, later became famous aces. They not only beat the fascists themselves, but also taught the young pilots to fight. Nowadays one can often hear statements that during the war years weakly trained youth came to fighter regiments from flight schools, which became easy prey for German aces. But at the same time, such authors for some reason forget to mention that already in the destructive regiments the older comrades continued to train young pilots, sparing neither effort nor time. They tried to make them experienced air fighters. Here is a typical example: only from mid-autumn 1943 to the end of winter 1944 in the 2 Guards Aviation Regiment, only for training young pilots, there were performed about 600 departures!

For the Germans, at the end of the war, the situation was worse than ever. The fighter squadrons, armed with the most modern fighters, were sent to the unshooted, hastily trained boys, who were immediately sent to their deaths. They fell into fighter squadrons and “horseless” pilots from the defeated bomber air groups. The latter had a great experience in air navigation, they knew how to fly at night. But they could not lead on an equal footing with our fighter pilots to maneuver air battles. Those few experienced "hunters" who still remained in the ranks, in no way could change the situation. No German, even the most advanced technology could save the Germans.

Who and how to shoot down?

People far from aviation, have no idea that the Soviet and German pilots were put in completely different conditions. German fighter pilots, and Hartman among them, very often engaged in the so-called "free hunting". Their main task was the destruction of enemy aircraft. They could fly when they considered it necessary, and where they considered it necessary. If they saw a single plane, they would rush at him like wolves at a defenseless sheep. And if faced with a strong opponent, they immediately left the battlefield. No, it was not cowardice, but an exact calculation. Why run into trouble if in half an hour you can again find and calmly “fill up” another defenseless “lamb”. That is how the German aces earned their rewards.

It is interesting to note the fact that after the war, Hartman mentioned that he repeatedly left his territory hastily after he was told by radio that a group of Alexander Pokryshkin appeared in the air. He clearly did not want to measure himself with the famous Soviet ace and run into trouble.

And what happened with us? For the command of the Red Army, the main goal was to deliver powerful bombing attacks on the enemy and to cover the ground forces from the air. Bombing attacks on the Germans were delivered by attack aircraft and bombers — the aircraft were relatively slow-moving and were a tasty morsel for German fighters. Soviet fighters constantly had to accompany bombers and attack aircraft in their flight to the target and back. And this meant that in such a situation it was not offensive, but defensive air combat that fell to them. Naturally, all the advantages in such a battle were on the side of the enemy.

Covering ground troops from the raids of German aircraft, our pilots were also put in very difficult conditions. The infantry constantly wanted to see Red Star fighters over their heads. So our pilots were forced to "buzz" over the front line, flying back and forth at low speed and at low altitude. At that time, the German “hunters” from a great height only chose their next “victim” and, having developed an enormous speed during a dive, they shot down our planes with lightning speed, the pilots of which, even seeing the attacker, simply did not have time to turn around or pick up speed.

Compared to the Germans, our fighter pilots were allowed to fly free hunting less frequently. Therefore, the results were more modest. Unfortunately, free hunting for our fighter aircraft was an unaffordable luxury ...

The fact that free hunting allowed to score a significant number of "points" is evidenced by the example of French pilots from the Normandy-Neman regiment. Our command took care of the "allies" and tried not to send them to cover the troops or to the deadly raids to accompany the attack aircraft and bombers. The French were able to do free hunting.

And the results speak for themselves. So, in just ten days of October 1944, French pilots shot down 119 of enemy aircraft.

In Soviet aviation, not only at the beginning of the war, but also at its final stage, there were a lot of bombers and attack aircraft. But in the composition of the Luftwaffe in the course of the war there were major changes. To repel the attacks of enemy bombers, they constantly needed more and more fighters. And there came such a moment that the German aviation industry was simply unable to produce both bombers and fighter aircraft at the same time. Therefore, already at the end of 1944, the production of bombers in Germany almost completely ceased, and only fighters began to emerge from the workshops of aircraft factories. And this means that the Soviet aces, unlike the Germans, have not often met large low-speed targets in the air. They had to fight exclusively with high-speed Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighters and the latest Focke-Wulf Fw 190 fighter-bombers, which were much more difficult to shoot down in aerial combat than a hulking bomb carrier.

From this flipped on the landing of the "Messerschmitt", damaged in battle, Walter Novotny, who was once ace number 1 in Germany, had just been recovered. But his flight career (as, indeed, life itself) could well end on this episode ...


Moreover, at the end of the war, the sky over Germany literally swarmed with “spitfires”, “tepestami”, “thunderbolts”, “mustangs”, “ilas”, “pawns”, “yaks” and “shopkeepers”. And if each departure of the German ace (if he succeeded in taking off at all) ended with the accrual of points (which no one really counted then), then the allied aviation pilots still needed to search for the air target. Many Soviet pilots recalled that since the end of 1944, their personal account of aerial victories has ceased to grow. German airplanes did not meet so often in the sky, and combat missions of fighter regiments were mainly carried out for the purpose of reconnaissance and ground attack of enemy ground forces.

What is the fighter for?

At first glance, this question seems very simple. Any person, even not familiar with aviation, will respond without hesitation: a fighter is needed in order to shoot down enemy aircraft. But is it all so simple? As is known, fighter aircraft is part of the air force. The air force is an integral part of the army.

The task of any army is to crush the enemy.

It is clear that all the forces and means of the army should be combined together and aimed at defeating the enemy.

Leading the army its command. And on how the command will be able to organize the management of the army, depends on the result of hostilities.

The Soviet and German command had a different approach. The command of the Wehrmacht ordered its fighter aircraft to gain air superiority. In other words - the German fighter aircraft should stupidly shoot down all enemy aircraft seen in the air. The hero was the one who killed more enemy planes.

I must say that this approach was very impressed by the German pilots. They gladly joined in this “competition”, considering themselves to be real hunters.

And everything would be fine, but the German pilots didn’t fulfill the set task. Aircraft beat a lot, but what's the point? With each month of the Soviet aircraft, as well as allied aircraft in the air became more and more. The Germans still could not cover their ground forces from the air. And the loss of bomber aircraft made life even more difficult for them. This alone suggests that the Germans lost the air war strategically.

The command of the Red Army saw the tasks of the fighter aviation completely different. The Soviet fighter pilots, first of all, were to cover the ground forces from the strikes of the German bombers. And they had to defend the aircraft of attack and bomber aircraft during their raids on the positions of the German army. In other words, fighter aircraft did not act on its own, like the Germans, but exclusively in the interests of the ground forces.

It was a hard thankless job during which our pilots usually received not fame, but death.

It is not surprising that the losses of the Soviet fighters were enormous. However, this does not mean that our planes were much worse, and the pilots are weaker than German ones. In this case, the outcome of the battle was determined not by the quality of the equipment and the skill of the pilot, but by tactical necessity, a strict command order.

Here, probably, any child will ask: “And what is this such stupid battle tactic, what kind of idiotic orders, because of which both planes and pilots died in vain?”

This is where the most important thing begins. And you need to understand that, in fact, this tactic is not stupid. After all, the main striking force of any army is its ground forces. Bomb strike on tanks and infantry, in warehouses with weapons and fuel, on bridges and crossings, can greatly weaken the combat capabilities of the ground forces. One successful air strike can fundamentally change the course of an offensive or defensive operation.

If a dozen fighters are lost in an air battle while defending ground objects, but not a single enemy bomb hits, for example, a ammunition depot, this means that the fighter pilots have completed the combat mission. Even at the cost of their lives. Otherwise, the whole division, left without shells, can be crushed by the attacking forces of the enemy.

The same can be said about flights to support strike aircraft. If they destroyed an ammunition depot, bombed a railway station clogged with military vehicles, destroyed a defense support center, this means that they made a significant contribution to the victory. And if, at the same time, the fighter pilots provided the bombers and attack aircraft with the opportunity to break through to the target through the air barriers of the enemy, even if they lost their comrades-in-arms, it means that they also won.

And this is really a real aerial victory. The main thing is to complete the task set by the command. The task, which can radically change the entire course of the fighting in this sector of the front. From all this, the conclusion is clear: the German fighters are hunters, the fighters of the Red Army Air Force are defenders.

Thinking about death ...

No matter what anyone says, but there are no fearless pilots (as, incidentally, tank crews, infantrymen or sailors) who are not afraid of death. The war lacks cowards and traitors. But for the most part, our pilots, even in the most difficult moments of the air battle, adhered to an unwritten rule: “die yourself, and rescue a comrade”. Sometimes, no longer having ammunition, they continued to fight, covering their comrades, went to the ram, wanting to inflict maximum damage to the enemy. And all because they defended their land, their home, their loved ones. They defended their homeland.

The fascists who attacked our country in the 1941 year dispelled themselves with the thought of world domination. At that time, the German pilots could not even think that they would have to sacrifice their lives for someone or something. Only in their patriotic speeches, they were ready to give their lives for the Fuhrer. Each of them, like any other invader, dreamed of a good reward after the successful end of the war. And to get a tidbit, it was necessary to live to the end of the war. In such a situation, not heroism and self-sacrifice for the sake of achieving a great goal, but a cold calculation came to the fore.

Do not forget that the boys of the Soviet Union, many of whom later became military pilots, were brought up somewhat differently than their peers in Germany. They took the example of such disinterested defenders of their people, as, for example, the epic hero Ilya of Murom, Prince Alexander Nevsky. Then in the memory of the people were still fresh feats of arms of the legendary heroes of the Patriotic War 1812, the heroes of the Civil War. And in general, Soviet schoolchildren were brought up mainly on books whose heroes were the true patriots of the Motherland.

The end of the war. Young German pilots receive a combat mission. In their eyes - doom. Erich Hartman said about them: “These young men come to us, and they are almost immediately knocked down. They come and go like the waves of the surf. This is a crime ... I think our propaganda is to blame. ”


Their peers from Germany also knew what friendship, love, patriotism and native land are. But do not forget that in Germany, with its centuries-old history of knighthood, the latter concept was especially close to all boys. Knightly laws, knightly honor, knightly glory, fearlessness were put at the forefront. Not by chance, even the main reward of the Reich was the knight’s cross.

It is clear that any boy in his heart dreamed of becoming a glorified knight.

However, one should not forget that the whole history of the Middle Ages indicates that the main task of the knight was to serve his master. Not to the Motherland, not to the people, but to the king, duke, baron. Even independent traveling knights, glorified in legends, were, in essence, the most ordinary mercenaries who earned money with the ability to kill. And all these crusades, sung by the chroniclers? Breaking pure water. It is not by chance that the words knight, profit and wealth are inseparable. Everyone is also well aware that knights rarely died on the battlefield. In a stalemate, they, as a rule, surrendered to captivity. The subsequent ransom from captivity was quite an ordinary thing for them. Ordinary commerce.

And is it any wonder that the chivalrous spirit, including in its negative manifestations, directly affected the moral qualities of future pilots of the Luftwaffe.

The command was well aware of this, because it considered itself a modern knighthood. With all the desire, it could not make its pilots fight as the Soviet fighter pilots fought - sparing neither the strength nor the life itself. It may seem strange to us, but it turns out that even in the statute of the German fighter aircraft it was written that the pilot himself determines his actions in aerial combat and no one can forbid him to leave the battle, if he considers it necessary.

The faces of these pilots show that we have the victorious warriors. The photo shows the most successful fighter pilots of the 1st Guards Fighter Air Division of the Baltic fleet: Senior Lieutenant Selyutin (19 wins), Captain Kostylev (41 wins), Captain Tatarenko (29 wins), Lt. Col. Golubev (39 wins) and Major Baturin (10 wins)

That is why the German aces never covered their troops over the battlefield, which is why they did not defend their bombers as selflessly as our fighters did. As a rule, German fighters only cleared the way for their bombers, trying to stifle the actions of our interceptors. The history of the past world war is replete with facts of how the German aces, sent to accompany the bombers, threw their wards in the case when the air situation was not in their favor. The hunter’s calculation and self-sacrifice turned out to be incompatible concepts for them.

As a result, air hunting was the only acceptable solution that suited everyone. The Luftwaffe leadership proudly reported on their successes in the fight against enemy aviation, Goebbels propaganda enthusiastically told the German people about the military achievements of the invincible aces, and while practicing their chance to stay alive, they scored points with all their might.

Perhaps, in the minds of the German pilots, something changed only when the war came to the territory of Germany itself, when the Anglo-American bomber aircraft literally began wiping out entire cities from the face of the earth. Women and children in tens of thousands died under the bombs of the Allies. The horror paralyzed the civilian population. Only then, seized by fear for the lives of their children, wives, mothers, did the German pilots from the Air Defense Force selflessly begin to rush into deadly air battles with a superior enemy, and sometimes even went to the ram "flying fortresses." But it was too late. By that time, there were almost no experienced pilots or a sufficient number of aircraft in Germany. Separate aces-pilots and hastily trained boys could not even save their situation even by their desperate actions.

The pilots who fought on the Eastern Front at that time, one might say, were lucky. Almost devoid of fuel, they almost did not rise into the air, and therefore at least survived until the end of the war and survived. As for the Green Heart, a famous fighter squadron mentioned at the beginning of the article, its last aces came in a very knightly manner: on the remaining aircraft they flew to surrender to the “knight friends” who understood them - the British and Americans.

It seems that after reading all of the above, you can probably answer the question of your children about whether the German pilots were the best in the world? Do they really surpass our pilots by an order of magnitude?

Sad note

Not so long ago I saw in the bookstore a new edition of the very children's book on aviation, with which I began the article. In the hope that the second edition will differ from the first one not only in the new cover, but also give the guys some sensible explanation of the fantastic results of the German aces, I opened the book on the page that interests me. Unfortunately, everything remained unchanged: the 62 of the plane shot down by Kozhedub looked like ridiculous numbers against the background of the 352 Hartman air victories. Such a gloomy arithmetic ...

The author is grateful for the assistance provided during the preparation of the article, Valery Dymychu
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  1. +20
    12 November 2012 09: 48
    Great article. Many thanks to the author for the publication. This should be in all textbooks on the history of the Great Patriotic War.
    1. Taratut
      -2
      12 November 2012 10: 33
      The article is completely stupid.
      I understand what exactly you like.
      But in fact it is nonsense.
      The most important evidence that our pilots were in no way inferior to the German aces in the skill of conducting air battles
      What is this about? The pilots are all different. Some were not inferior, some were very inferior. Let's face it, the level of training of German pilots was higher than that of MOST Soviet pilots. Zheltorotikov after the courses "take off - landing) were not there. The Germans shot down more Soviet planes, despite the fact that they were always numerically inferior to us. To argue with this is stupid.
      Were German planes just better? Yes. Better. But not enough to just explain their success. The British in the Hurricanes quite adequately fought in the battle of England, and the Hurricanes also yielded to the Messers.
      The main reason for our defeats is the organization of air combat.
      The Germans wrote a lot about this.
      This also applies to tankers.
      1. Brother Sarych
        -5
        12 November 2012 11: 10
        You can argue here only regarding the British ...
        1. Brother Sarych
          -2
          12 November 2012 13: 51
          It’s interesting why they removed the post above mine — I didn’t see anything seditious there, on the contrary, everything seemed to be very carefully written ...
          Well, mine would be removed for the company. especially since I answered ...
    2. +3
      12 November 2012 11: 58
      I would also add that large aces accounts are a sign of losing an air war
    3. +2
      12 November 2012 13: 25
      Quote: AK-74-1
      Excellent article.

      Mmm
      How would it be more correct, recently it has already been discussed. Recently .
      hi
      1. Brother Sarych
        -1
        12 November 2012 13: 51
        And more than once - nothing new has been added, frankly ...
        1. 0
          12 November 2012 14: 23
          Quote: Brother Sarich
          nothing new

          Hmm, so it’s worth the wait and soon the best-r-rep-r-r-revelators will answer the sacramental question, why did the best (hit more) lose the worst?
          Guess at a time!
          wink
          1. +2
            12 November 2012 14: 31
            it’s just that shit that was poured onto our history in the late 80s and early 90s will burp for a long time, the Nikitkins freaks still go sideways and how many years have passed
            1. 0
              12 November 2012 17: 35
              Nothing new. This, by the way, is not a minus, but a plus. If in 10 publications it will be said about the most successful ace Hartman, then there should be at least 20 publications on the topic of the best ace Kozhedub. This is the only way to turn the tide of the information war against our Victory.
          2. aviator46
            -8
            12 November 2012 22: 02
            Do not forget that 2/3 of the Luftwaffe aircraft died on the WEST front.
            And if the Germans threw their main aviation forces on the Eastern Front, from the Union Air Force, there would be nothing left.

            And this is for info -
            To register a victory, the Luftwaffe pilot filled out an application consisting of 21 points.
               It stated:
               1. Time (date, hour, minute) and the place the plane crashed.
               2. Names of crew members applying.
               3. Type of aircraft destroyed.
               4. Nationality of the adversary.
               5. The essence of the damage:
               a) flame and black smoke;
               b) whether the enemy plane fell apart (call them) or exploded;
               c) whether he made an emergency landing (indicate in which place of the front and whether it was a normal or emergency landing);
               e) if it landed behind the front line, did it catch fire on the ground.
               6. The nature of the fall (only if it could be observed):
               a) in which place of the front;
               b) whether it was vertical or it broke out;
               c) if not observed, for what reason.
               7. The fate of the enemy crew (killed, parachuted, etc.).
               8. A personal pilot report must be attached.
               9. Witnesses:
               a) in the air;
               b) on the ground.
               10. The number of attacks an enemy plane was subjected to.
               11. The direction from which each attack was carried out.
               12. The distance from which effective fire was fired.
               13. Tactical attack position.
               14. Were the enemy arrows disabled.
               15. Type of weapons used.
               16. Ammunition Consumption.
               17. The type and number of machine guns used to destroy an enemy aircraft.
               18. Type of own plane.
               19. Anything else that has tactical and technical value.
               20. Damage to your own car as a result of enemy actions.
               21. Other units involved in the battle (including anti-aircraft artillery).
               The squadron commander signed the questionnaire. The main points were 9 (witnesses) and 21 (other units).
               The application was accompanied by a personal report of the pilot, in which he first indicated the date and time of take-off, the threshold and the start of the battle, and then only announced victories and listed them from the time the attack began, including altitude and range.
               Then he indicated the essence of the destruction, the nature of the fall, his observation and the recorded time.
               A report on the battle, written by a witness or an eyewitness, was attached to the report on the downed aircraft. All this made it possible to double-check the pilot's messages about the victory. Commander of a group or squadron after receiving reports of other pilots, data from ground observation posts, decoding of film machine gun films, etc. He wrote on the form his conclusion, which, in turn, served as the basis for official confirmation or not confirmation of victory.
               As an official recognition of his victory, the Luftwaffe pilot received a special certificate, which indicated the date, time and place of the battle, as well as the type of aircraft he shot down.
               If you believe the sources of Germany, the Germans did not share victories. “One pilot - one victory,” their law read. For example, the Allied pilots divided the victories as follows: if two pilots fired at one aircraft and it was shot down, each of them wrote half
            1. Brother Sarych
              +5
              12 November 2012 22: 20
              Do you believe in this tale? Poor Hartman, probably, messed up writing reports ...
              All this bookkeeping exists only in the imagination of unconditional fans of the Luftwaffe ...
              1. valiant
                0
                13 November 2012 01: 21
                Quote: Brother Sarich
                Poor Hartman, probably, messed up writing reports ...

                nothing complicated in filling out a simple form, you want to receive for services, please report
            2. 0
              12 November 2012 22: 31
              Quote: aviator46
              Do not forget that 2/3 of the Luftwaffe aircraft died on the WEST front.

              if not difficult in numbers and with links to the source
            3. Beck
              -2
              13 November 2012 09: 56
              See Vasildenko. The enemy was strong and ours defeated him.
            4. 0
              24 August 2017 16: 31
              That is, the number of victories was limited only by the amount of ink in the fountain pen?
              "And when I found out that the gentleman the gentleman believes with a word, then the card hit me!"
        2. +2
          14 November 2012 03: 06
          And nothing new is needed. But, I think, such and similar articles should be replicated, popularized, read by young people. And not only youth. Everything is very thorough, logical, concrete. Very sensible article. Thanks to the author
      2. Denzel13
        +3
        12 November 2012 19: 27
        Now, moreover, it was discussed more than once and not two. Well, nothing, you can repeat it.
        According to the accounts of German "experts", there are quite sensible facts from the book "Aces and Propaganda" by Yu. Mukhin. If we discard the excessive, in my subjective opinion, politicization of the author, then this is what remains:
        1) Once on the Eastern Front, the German "experts" began to increase the astronomical accounts of the downed Red Army planes.
        2) Having fallen to the Western front after the Eastern Front, the same experts very sharply lost activity, bringing down 10-20 times less in a longer period of time.
        From the foregoing, the conclusion suggests itself that the Anglo-American pilots were better prepared and it was harder for the Germans to shoot them down.
        But fact No. 3 - the best ace of the Allies, excluding the Red Army, had 38 shot down (remember how many aces we had shot down more than 40), and in quantitative terms the Allied pilots who shot down more than 5 aircraft of the Axis were more than 10 times less than in the Red Army .
        You can also correlate the losses of German "experts" on the Eastern Front and on the Western. Often, the Germans, according to their reporting, "destroyed" more than there was in any sector of the front of our aircraft. Take, for example, the air battle over the Blue Line in the Kuban in 1943. This is because how could a German pilot fill out reporting forms for 9-10 American bombers shot down in one battle in the sky over Berlin, when everyone saw how many of them actually fell, also taking into account how many anti-aircraft gunners recorded themselves? Another thing is the Eastern Front - who will check how many downed Soviet planes fell, especially behind the front line?
        And fact No. 4 - German pilots were given a cross on the Eastern Front for shooting down, at different times of the war, from 50 to 150 aircraft, and on the West they received a similar award for 10-15 aircraft (which, incidentally, corresponded to our GSS). Here again, you can apply the above fact number 3 regarding the pilots of the Allies. The system of points, and not guaranteed destroyed aircraft, did the trick. Goebbels needed the heroes of the nation — and they were riveted on the Eastern Front. Who can check?
        1. valiant
          +1
          12 November 2012 22: 23
          Denzel13
          1) Once on the Eastern Front, the German "experts" began to increase the astronomical accounts of the downed Red Army planes.
          2) Having fallen to the Western front after the Eastern Front, the same experts very sharply lost activity, bringing down 10-20 times less in a longer period of time.
          ,
          1) There are also examples of pilots who were successful in the West and not too successful in the East. This is the commander of the II group of the 54th fighter squadron, Major Hans "Assi" Khan. He served in the 2nd fighter squadron for a long time, was one of the leading aces of the battle for Britain, and Khan won 68 victories in the West. Khan was transferred to the Eastern Front in the fall of 1942; he assumed the position of group commander on November 1. On January 26, 1943, Hans Khan shot down his hundredth plane. Over the next month, Assi shot down eight more aircraft. On February 21, due to engine failure, Khan was forced to land behind Soviet lines south of Lake Ilmen. The next seven years, Hans Khan spent in Soviet camps. An even more striking example is the commander of the 27th fighter squadron Wolfgang Schellmann, the second most successful ace in the Condor Legion during the Spanish Civil War. He was shot down on the first day of the war, June 22, 1941, although he was considered a recognized specialist in maneuverable aerial combat. After three years on the Western Front (the first victory on November 7, 1939), Joachim Müncheberg arrived in the 51st fighter squadron on the Eastern Front in August 1942. He was shot down twice during four weeks, although he was considered a specialist in the fight against X. Philip “Spitfire” - there were already 35 of them on Muncheberg’s account, two more than his total account in the East, 33 Soviet planes. Siegfried Schnell, who won 87 air victories against the Royal Air Force and the Americans, arrived in the 54th fighter squadron on the Eastern Front in February 1944 - two weeks later he died in a battle with Soviet fighters.
          2) A smaller score on the Western Front is offset by the quality of the shot down. Walter Dahl, a veteran of the 3rd Udet fighter squadron, had 129 victories, 84 of them on the Eastern Front and 45 on the Western. His first victim was the I 15bis biplane on June 22, 1941, and since December of that year he had already fought in the Mediterranean. Two years later, on December 6, 1943, he shot down his first "Flying Fortress" in the Reich air defense. Among the 45 victories of Walter Dahl in the West, 30 four-engine bombers (23 “B 17” “Flying Fortress” and 7 “B 24” “Liberator”). The even distribution of victories was generally characteristic of the Luftwaffe veterans. Anton Hackl, ace of the 77th fighter squadron, won his first victory on June 15, 1940 in the skies of Norway. These were two Hudson of the Royal Air Force. The campaign of 1941 and most of 1941 spent on the Eastern Front, where he crossed the line of 100 shot down. Then, until the spring of 1943, he fought in the sky of North Africa, and from the fall of 1943, in the air defense of the Reich. Hackle's total score was 192 aircraft, of which 61 were shot down in the West. As in the case of the downed Walter Dahl, Hakl has a significant share of heavy bombers. Of the 61 victories in the West, more than half, 34 units, are the four-engined B 17 and B 24 bombers.
          1. Beck
            -2
            13 November 2012 09: 57
            See Vasilenko. The enemy was strong, but the victory remained with us.
            1. +2
              13 November 2012 10: 08
              firstly, we didn’t graze sheep together, secondly what to look at, and thirdly, I didn’t say either that the German is a weak opponent
              1. Beck
                -2
                13 November 2012 11: 12
                Vasilenko.

                I apologize for you. Somehow slipped out. And look, what I said from the very beginning. There was nothing to belittle the strongest and most capable enemy. And the glory of our army from this is even higher.
  2. +15
    12 November 2012 09: 54
    In the PR business, the West has always been at its best, but this PR was almost always just a stupid and outright lie. The funniest thing is that if you count all the "victories" of the blond beasts, they killed more than the number of planes produced :) Ie. the facts of openly propagandistic lies among the Germans are more than obvious.
    At the same time, our pilots, especially at the beginning of the war, often did not record real victories because of the inability to prove these victories, we retreated and air battles were often fought over the already occupied territory.
    In general, let the West think and think whatever you want, but our Kozhedub, Pokryshkin, Rechkalov, Glinka, Safonov, Amet Khan-Sultan and many many other famous aces threw these "great" Germans from the sky, and thanks to their heroism and victories our Motherland emerged victorious from the war.
    1. Taratut
      -2
      12 November 2012 10: 47
      Quote: Sakhalininets
      The funny thing is that if you count all the "victories" of the blond beasts, then they killed more than the aircraft was produced

      Did you consider it yourself? Well, give me the numbers.

      Quote: Sakhalininets
      In general, let the West think and think whatever, but our Kozhedub, Pokryshkin, Rechkalov, Glinka, Safonov, Amet Khan-Sultan and many many other famous aces threw these "great" Germans from the sky

      What does the west have to do with it? You should have your own brains.
      Did the Germans have a numerical superiority over ours? No.
      Moreover, during the war Germany was forced to keep large forces outside the eastern front. Already in the fall of 1941, even from the existing invasion group, a large group was sent to the Mediterranean.
      And further, more and more aircraft were assigned to air defense. And just there, German pilots lived much less than their comrades from the Eastern Front.
      Everyone knows that by 1944, Anglo-American aviation was significantly stronger than Soviet or German.
      And our pilots, of course, honor and glory.
      Just do not lie. This belittles their feat.
    2. +3
      12 November 2012 12: 15
      Sakhalinets (3) agrees with you 100% and the article is definitely +++
    3. +1
      12 November 2012 18: 26
      You can’t say better !!! I completely agree! Article PLUS ++++
    4. 0
      12 November 2012 23: 47
      Quote: Sakhalininets
      In general, let the West think and think whatever you want, but our Kozhedub, Pokryshkin, Rechkalov, Glinka, Safonov, Amet Khan-Sultan and many many other famous aces threw these "great" Germans from the sky, and thanks to their heroism and victories our Motherland emerged victorious from the war.

      Yes, the great pilots of World War II, gold nuggets washed from a huge amount of breed, that breed of Soviet pilots who could not survive in the first air battles.
      Here I recommend you to watch it, draw your own conclusions, personally, I think a lot here is true [media = http: //my-hit.ru/film/13898/online]
      1. 0
        13 November 2012 00: 10
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        http://my-hit.ru/film/13898/online

        Link to movie video did not load
        1. 0
          15 November 2012 00: 42
          Another link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDbo2WJTMfA&feature=player_embedded
  3. I-16M
    +9
    12 November 2012 10: 08
    Ordinary information war.
    They attack us from all sides, Russia does not take retaliatory actions. An example is these "educational" books, authors, publishers, sellers of which should be judged as distributors of pornography!
    1. +5
      12 November 2012 12: 18
      I-16M I would send them to mines altogether, for child molestation and propaganda against the MOTHERLAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      1. 0
        12 November 2012 17: 36
        An interesting approach ... With a deep rational grain.
  4. +4
    12 November 2012 10: 30
    Thanks to the author I read it with pleasure !!!
  5. borisst64
    +3
    12 November 2012 10: 36
    They write a lot on this topic, but the author has carried out an analysis even deeper. I liked it, plus.
  6. Click-Klyak
    0
    12 November 2012 10: 54
    And the results speak for themselves. So, in just ten days of October 1944, French pilots shot down 119 enemy aircraft
    Do you know that the bulk of the shot down several aces of the regiment? Most do not have a single victory.
  7. Beck
    -17
    12 November 2012 11: 01
    Article, echoes of Soviet propaganda. Not to admit that the enemy was very strong and proud that they still won. So no, this and that, if not for this, yes there.

    Fact. As a result, the training and professional skills of the German infantryman, tanker, artilleryman, pilot, and officers were better than that of the British, American, Soviet military. The English General Staff even issued a directive - with equal strength, not to engage in a clash with the Germans, since it will be impossible to win. Join the battle only in the presence of numerical and technical superiority.

    Maybe there were inaccuracies in Hartman's track record, so such inaccuracies were in all howling parties. For the author, a photo-machine gun synchronized with armament is, as it were, not a proof. That the words of a follower and observers from the ground are a better argument than a documented machine gun?

    Why did the British and Americans not have aces approaching in victories not only to German, but also to Soviet pilots? Exactly. The crew of Lancaster bombers, having made 40 sorties, retired on a well-deserved retirement, that is, the pilots were given a chance to survive. The same seems to have happened in fighter aircraft. And most likely the Americans had the same. That is why the American fighter planes assigned the ass to the pilot who shot down only 5 aircraft.

    Luftwaffe pilots were upscale and craftsmen. And why neglect it. Moreover, the final victory of the Soviet pilots over the strongest enemy is WORTHY.
    1. +5
      12 November 2012 11: 20
      Quote: Beck
      The English General Staff even issued a directive - with equal strength, not to engage in a clash with the Germans, since it will be impossible to win. Join the battle only in the presence of numerical and technical superiority.

      That's the only way they know how to fight.
      1. Beck
        -10
        12 November 2012 11: 44
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        That's the only way they know how to fight.


        Hey.

        So against the Germans all allies fought only by numerical superiority of forces. Including the Soviet armed forces. Wehrmacht professional is undeniable, even if they conquered all of Europe. Gouging can not do it.
        1. +10
          12 November 2012 12: 10
          Quote: Beck
          So against the Germans all allies fought only by numerical superiority of forces. Including the Soviet armed forces. Wehrmacht professional is undeniable, even if they conquered all of Europe. Gouging can not do it.


          And why such worship? Who then fought in Europe with the fascists for real?
          Frogs? Duc they once in the face they gave off and paws to the top, although the army and equipment from the paddling pool was no worse, but no, it's scary to fight there bang-bang and they kill ...
          Psheks? Duc at these glamorous degenerates, the army was also not very inferior to the Germans, but they also got in the face and crawled through the camps with their trousers ..
          Norway ... these and even for decency in the face once gave the Germans, for prevention, but still blown away at the moment.
          The Czechs ... in general, the shame with such reinforced areas, armaments and the army to surrender without war is generally a complete shame.
          Yugoslavia ... Greece ??? Yes, also a disgrace, they could very well fight back, but everyone essentially managed it.
          You can’t even call it a war, it was stupidly a gathering of forces for DragNahOsten, under the command and the main forces of the German.

          And as for the super fighters ... well, it’s like they had a good ass, but even at the beginning of the war they didn’t feel bad our pilots bent their wings .... just read about Amet Khan-Sultan and his fellow soldiers who at the beginning of the war on I-15 Messers burned with a bang, and Safonov on the I-16 ... a thunderstorm of the northern sky .... Do you need more examples?

          And about the gouging. So whose flag did the Reichstag adorn?
          1. vyatom
            -22
            12 November 2012 12: 30
            Do not forget that the British fought in the Mediterranean Sea, in Egypt. The British army and navy also fought in Burma. And they still sent us convoys. What about airstrikes in German cities? So you need to respect the allies. Especially considering that when the whole world was already at war with Germany, Stalin twisted his holey asshole before Hitler and supplied him with everything necessary. Even when Hitler planted the very root in the 41st, it was the British who became our first allies and expressed their readiness to fight fascism together, despite the betrayal of Soviet Russia.
            1. +9
              12 November 2012 12: 46
              ..... it was the British who became our first allies and expressed their readiness to fight fascism together, despite the betrayal of Soviet Russia....
              and really helped already after almost FOUR years of bloody war .....

              ... in Burma and Egypt fought? So they fought for their colonies there ......
              ... The battle for the Atlantic? ....... Sorry, so as not to bend ourselves in the blockade ...
              ... Convoys ...... thank you very much ... especially for the lives of those sailors who went to P Q-17 /////////////////////// ///

              So, be more careful with betrayal on turns .......... All this "betrayal" began after the Munich agreement organized by the British when the USSR was left alone with Hitler ....
              1. vyatom
                -16
                12 November 2012 12: 51
                In the 41st year, Hitler made an attempt to make peace with England in order to turn all forces on the crusade to the east. The British rejected this offer and extended a helping hand to us. Is it worthy of respect.
                Although we, until the age of 41, actively helped the Germans in the war against England and France. A Munich agreement. So all countries pursued their mercantile interests, including the USSR.
              2. +1
                12 November 2012 12: 53
                Fregattencapitan, in that convoy, as in others, the bulk of the sailors were Americans and British
                1. +1
                  12 November 2012 16: 31
                  Thank you for clarification .... of course I know that the convoys included representatives of different nations, including and the British ... for giving them a deep bow and eternal memory .......
                  But how cowardly and shamefully the Fleet of Her Majesty escaped from an imaginary threat does not succumb to any explanation and forgiveness ........
            2. +3
              12 November 2012 13: 16
              Quote: vyatom
              talin turned before Hitler with his holey asshole and supplied him with everything necessary

              examples in the studio and why are you silent about the fact that when Stalin suggested protecting Chekhov lime they opposed this ?!
              1. vyatom
                -8
                12 November 2012 15: 00
                The question is different: Did the Czechs themselves want the USSR to defend them?
                And the criminal strategic loss of Stalin, during which he gave half the country to plunder the Nazis - there is no excuse.
                1. +2
                  12 November 2012 15: 49
                  Well, I think that the Czechs would just not mind
                  what about "criminal strategic loss of Stalin"
                  Stalin won at least a year and a half, but what happened at the initial stage, unfortunately, we are unlikely to ever find out whether it was the ignorance of the military leadership or deliberate betrayal, because the mister "political prostitute" had a slogan - victory in the revolution through defeat in the war so who knows
                2. xan
                  +1
                  12 November 2012 16: 26
                  Stalin in that situation has overcome all that is possible
                  Stalin wanted to throw the wise Europeans
                  personally, you are either not far off, or are engaged in propaganda
            3. Brother Sarych
              +1
              12 November 2012 13: 58
              What is the world that fought with Germany? Would you specify, huh? Just read the history of World War II - what was the war in North Africa like when the fighting began in Burma, and so on ...
              1. vyatom
                -5
                12 November 2012 15: 11
                Starting September 1, 1939, Poland, Great Britain and France were at war with Germany. As well as other European countries.
                The United States has always followed British policy. So the question of entering the war is only a matter of time. In our country, Hitler’s criminal policies were well understood, but they were more occupied with the internal threat, which resulted in a nightmare of the 41st year.
                1. +1
                  12 November 2012 15: 52
                  Quote: vyatom
                  but they were more occupied with an internal threat, which resulted in a nightmare of the 41st year.

                  examples please
                  1. vyatom
                    0
                    14 November 2012 16: 41
                    Repression in the army, which mowed the foundation of the team experienced personnel. The Finnish war showed.
                2. 0
                  12 November 2012 17: 06
                  Quote: vyatom
                  Starting September 1, 1939, Poland, Great Britain and France were at war with Germany.

                  Yeah, the so-called "zitskrieg." Well, the truth is, the Hans bent Poland, but since this was part of the plans of the impudent Saxons, no one even scratched themselves there ...
                3. Beck
                  -1
                  12 November 2012 17: 33
                  Refinement.

                  Roosevelt could not get involved in the war in Europe on his own as Churchill had not implored him. After the first world legislation, law was passed by senators and co-leaders that US troops cannot take part outside of America.

                  Hitler in December 41, after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, he himself declared war on the United States. What unleashed Roosevelt's hands .. In general, Hitler made inadequate decisions. That is why Euu was to attack the USSR. He that did not know the bitter experience of the First World War when Germany fought on two fronts. and was defeated. That is why he threw Romel's troops into Libya and Tunisia before capturing Malta. What doomed his African troops to interruptions in supplies. The British from the airfields of Malta smashed the fascist convoys.

                  Not without reason, in 43, whether the year British intelligence prepared a plan for the physical destruction of Hitler, but the British government decided that Hitler, for victory, would be more useful alive. Since he made strategic mistakes here and there. Well, at least he threw his troops from Norway to Africa, and to Greece and Crete.
                  1. +1
                    12 November 2012 22: 12
                    Well, I don’t know. When the PQ-17 convoy in England was delayed due to the fear of the Grandfleet meeting with the German Tirpitz, Roosevelt demanded Churchill to leave the caravan as soon as possible. Hitler braked.
            4. majorlnb
              +6
              12 November 2012 15: 30
              Something you did not bother to learn history at school !!
              The British themselves brought Hitler to power in Germany and gave him arms in the face of the Wehrmacht. Moreover, Hitler was also directed in every way to the east. That is why they surrendered to Germany Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, France and Belgium. It was for this that the entire war was supplied with strategic raw materials.
              Look at the statistics of Lend-Lease deliveries in the USSR. Very eloquent figures !! Especially by dates of receipt and quantity.
              1. Beck
                -4
                12 November 2012 17: 45
                To Major.

                YES.!? But they didn’t try to read the story more closely .. The British themselves brought Hitler to power, they themselves gave them weapons. And if they did everything themselves, did they place their expeditionary force in 40 in France and Belgium?

                Yeah. Did the British supply Hitler with strategic raw materials to bomb the cities of England?

                What does the land-lens to the topic. At least they would give out a school curriculum.
            5. +5
              12 November 2012 15: 30
              Quote: vyatom
              Do not forget that the British fought in the Mediterranean Sea, in Egypt. The British army and navy also fought in Burma. And they still sent us convoys. What about airstrikes in German cities? So you need to respect the allies. Especially considering that when the whole world was already at war with Germany, Stalin twisted his holey asshole before Hitler and supplied him with everything necessary. Even when Hitler planted the very root in the 41st, it was the British who became our first allies and expressed their readiness to fight fascism together, despite the betrayal of Soviet Russia.


              What an epic-liberalistic charm, right here is who the real saviors of mankind are, here they are knights in white under the union jack laughing
              Thanks, I haven’t laughed like that for a long time. Helped a lot ... especially in the Libyan desert .... scale! But what is there, the scale is simply equal to the face. Do you even read what these jumps in the desert were like ... a couple of operations, even up to army level operations, do not reach the forces and means involved .... Middle-earth ... and what was that? Yes, nothing that influenced the fronts in Russia, italians shaved and sometimes vice versa .... for our grandfathers, the actions of the Italian fleet, as it were, to put it mildly, were also important as fierce battles between Martians and Jupiterian .... Burma, and then what? the British colonial troops received bells from invariably armed Japanese ... or Singapore became the Brest of the Strait of Malacca ... I don’t remember something ...
              The bombing of Germany ... yes, yes ... the bombing of Dresden was especially helpful ... just hellish ... don’t be a fool, brazenly Saxons didn’t drop a single bomb on the plants in which their capital was ... Kruppovskie factories worked throughout the war with a bang ... and their bombs passed. Although judging by your empty aplomb for you, the fate of the war was decided precisely under El Alamein and Torbuk, and Churchill was the savior of the world.
              1. vyatom
                -1
                14 November 2012 16: 45
                Stop baslanit with malice. If the British had not tied the Talian and French fleets in battle, they would have ended up in the Black Sea.
                No need to look one-sidedly. The USSR made the maximum contribution to the victory, but even the actions of the allies cannot be completely removed.
                And for a fool I can cleanse turnips.
                1. Beck
                  -1
                  14 November 2012 20: 43
                  Quote: vyatom
                  And for a fool I can cleanse turnips.


                  No need to get excited. You can't clean up everyone. It is now fashion, perhaps, to vilify the fighting fraternity. During the war, with a feeling of gratitude, the canned turtle soup was opened, in the most difficult moment the "Harikeins" parties were happy. We sighed with relief when, after the Kursk Bulge, Hitler threw armored divisions into Italy to fight the landed allies. The Anglo-Saxons in the Ardennes sighed with relief when the Red Army began the offensive a week earlier. And how they rejoiced together on the Elbe one Victory.

                  Tepericha, another generation, not all, part, blames the allies in the tail and mane, supposedly if only they could and without them. All this is bitter, before that generation of ordinary Ivanov, John, Vasiliev, Robert, Sergeyev, Jean, Petrov, Kshishtov.
            6. +2
              12 November 2012 16: 05
              And how many times the Anglo-Saxons betrayed us, and remember the convoy PQ-17. They all wanted the same corporal to attack us, but they had to go to our allies. Read the memoirs of your celestial Churchill. It’s now you and your democrats who are licking them, and after super-theft you are hiding in London.
            7. xan
              +2
              12 November 2012 16: 22
              you are not in the subject
              Stalin didn’t twirl before anyone, it’s a realpolitik after your English’s cunningness, which you lick
          2. akjn4
            +3
            12 November 2012 12: 31
            You won't prove anything to him. This is the "Voice of Israel", its task is to broadcast, not to prove. After all, he does not know history, does not understand aviation, but climbs in comments to show his stupidity and anger towards Russia.
            You can't argue all these backs wink
            Sincerely.
            1. vyatom
              -6
              12 November 2012 13: 03
              We need to try to sort out that historical situation without fear. Now a lot of dirt is poured on the Soviet Armed Forces during the war. It is not right. But the hat-thinking mood is also unacceptable.
              My opinion: the USSR was potentially stronger than Germany for the period of 41 years, but Hitler clearly guessed as a crook sharper that the weakness and disorganization that the Finnish War revealed and the repressions of the mentally ill Stalin. And he hit, relying on an army with combat experience, and a clear plan of actions. Only this helped him at the initial stage.
              And only truly brave leaders were able to anticipate the actions of the Germans and counter them with competent defense, and then ragrom. An example is Admiral Golovko in the Northern Fleet. He was able to organize a defense, so that the Germans couldn’t even go over to the Fishery border (although prepared mountain rangers went on the attack), he organized the escort wiring. And the Petsamo-Kirkinese operation was carried out in such a way that although the Germans were defending themselves, they suffered heavy losses.
              1. Brother Sarych
                0
                12 November 2012 14: 00
                We started well, but already from the second paragraph you can argue with everything ...
                1. vyatom
                  -3
                  12 November 2012 15: 12
                  What exactly will argue? I'm ready.
              2. +6
                12 November 2012 14: 40
                don't get sick to you, vyatom ..
                I read all kinds of posts ...
                but the ones you write are the first time. So fresh, so unexpected.
                What really, there is Mr. Taratut on the forum - you will be leaked. I thought no one would write bitterly.
                But no.
                There is still gunpowder in the powder flasks, the Russian land is not impoverished by the heroes ..
                Admiral Golovko organized the Northern Convoys? Are you serious?
                Trained mountain rangers on Fisherman's Peninsula? But they were opposed, one must think - did unprepared desert eaters fall?
                Brave leaders laid down the personnel of the Red Army for the 3 of the month of the war - contrasting the competent defense from Brest to Moscow?
                ...
                Correctly the author writes. It’s hard, really.
                You read something, you know something ... but this something did not resonate with your soul. A set of, simple, stamps.
                ...
                Scary and sad.
                Years through 10, the generation of the current 50-40 summers will leave social activity.
                Children have already grown up, grandchildren look with humor, we ourselves are not front-line soldiers (except for our wars) - what do we go to schools to invest in in our young brains?
                So will Chernukha brainwash young.
                And another years through 20 - it will be believed that Stalin was a comrade-in-arms of Genghis Khan, that the Russians hid in the Great Patriotic War in the Ural Mountains, until the Americans came to release them.
                For example, I don't know what to do. We grew up, there were always front-line soldiers around us, orders, awards, banners. "Zarnitsa" was, military sports camps.
                And now?
                Call-of-duty game? World of Tanks? So these games are not about us. There about those. That tanks, that planes, that guns - the best. The overwhelming LeichTractor will easily destroy the IS-2. A lousy "Stuck" will easily beat a tank regiment.
                ...
                Books. Movies. Games!!!
                This is state policy.
                ..
                And here we are ... practicing eloquence.
                1. vyatom
                  -2
                  12 November 2012 14: 53
                  Golovko organized the escort escort through the Soviet zone of responsibility, and also organized the unloading of military cargoes needed by our country. And he did it quite well.
                  As you know, our positions were stormed on the Kola Peninsula (in particular, to Murmansk) by specially trained huntsmen, and not ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers. And our marines opposed them (yesterday’s sailors from destroyers and patrol officers) and units of the border guards and the 14th army, which in fact did not have combat experience. I know more than you in this part. I was born and raised in these places. The defense and restoration of the Kola Arctic is an example of competent leadership. (You know that only fewer bombs were dropped on Murmansk than on Stalingrad)
                  Learn to finally read what I actually wrote. And do not go into sad things that will happen in 50 years.
                  1. +1
                    12 November 2012 15: 57
                    Quote: vyatom
                    The defense and restoration of the Kola Arctic is an example of competent leadership

                    if you contradict yourself, you say that because of Stalin there were no military specialists, then suddenly someone manages to correctly organize the defense
                    1. vyatom
                      0
                      14 November 2012 16: 48
                      Nothing contradicts. Stalin mowed down the main military personnel, and on all fronts we got what we got. There remained units of competent military personnel. The rest of the Mehlis, Budyonny, Voroshilov and other obtuse stupid commissar husk.
                      The northern front is probably the only section where the trained mountain rangers have not even crossed the border.
                2. 0
                  12 November 2012 16: 39
                  Igarr! Off topic ... but this line touched here ......The overwhelming LeichTractor will easily destroy the IS-2

                  I have been playing World of Tanks for almost a year (by the way, they were the wrong one ...... and our Belarusians are brothers) ... there’s no such thing ... and there’s no politics there, unlike Call-of-duty and the like ... ...
                3. +2
                  12 November 2012 17: 50
                  Igarr, this is not a state policy, this is a policy against the state. more precisely, against the constituents of this state, that is, against us.

                  There is an industry for withering the brain and zombie wimps. Books. Films. Games. Backed by advertising money. By the way, I don’t play tanks, but I see ads on the box regularly.

                  Yes, practice eloquence. BUT: if this eloquence is wisely used to bring certain clarity to minds, then why not ???
                  1. +1
                    12 November 2012 17: 57
                    Quote: Banshee
                    Banshee

                    What kind of people, Hi Roman, finally came to the site, I'm glad to see. I hope you won’t disappear anymore drinks
              3. +2
                12 November 2012 17: 01
                Quote: vyatom
                We need to try to sort out that historical situation without fear.

                We need to impartially deal with the new textbooks of history and the Russian language. Problems with spelling and a set of historical facts among modern schoolchildren threaten national security. Stalin, it turns out, was mentally ill, and Hitler was a card cheater. The USSR was potentially stronger, despite the fact that by the year 41 all almost all of Europe was working for Germany. And how did the USSR, under the guidance of a mentally ill person, create such a potential? Logic is also not good, it is felt that our young comrade is more trained in guessing on the coffee grounds of the exam.
                Can we now bring someone from a psychiatric hospital to government? At least advice to help? :)

                And as for the best ... Now it turns out that the Germans had better pilots, tankers, planes, and tanks. So what did they lose then? "What is the strength in, brother?"
                1. vyatom
                  -1
                  14 November 2012 16: 51
                  Stalin was examined by a psychiatrist in the early 30s. And he was declared sick. The fate of the doctor is known. How to explain his mania of persecution and repression. Although you are a nerd, you are pretty dumb and one-sided. But Stalin called Hitler a sharpie when he declared war on the United States.
                  So study, clown
                  1. 0
                    14 November 2012 17: 32
                    Quote: vyatom
                    How to explain his mania of persecution and repression.

                    not likely to be a real conspiracy
              4. 0
                13 November 2012 06: 56
                vyatom
                My opinion: the USSR was potentially stronger than Germany for the period of 41 years, but Hitler clearly guessed as a crook sharper that the weakness and disorganization that the Finnish War revealed and the repressions of the mentally ill Stalin.

                One of the very first reasons for the defeats of the initial stage was the almost complete absence of the Red Army combat experience of military operations against regular troops and in a continuous front.
                This experience, little by little, began to be gained in the 30s. But, in parallel, there was another process - the creation of a mass cadre army at an intensive pace. For the preceding war, the three years of the Red Army grew by almost 2,5 times. For such terms, it was simply unrealistic to bring all formations to combat-ready level.
                As a result, by the 41st, the general combat readiness of the formations was VERY uneven.
                Conventionally, the divisions of the first "weave" were almost at the level. Otherwise: ((
                And this ALMOST led to disaster with the concept of the blitzkrieg that was imposed on us. The Red Army did not have the same mobility and reaction time as the Wehrmacht to fend off strikes. However, in the 41st year, no one else in the world possessed it anymore.
                In general, we can talk about the reasons here for weeks.
                The main thing - there was no one, two or three reasons easily and explaining everything.
                1. vyatom
                  0
                  14 November 2012 16: 54
                  I said POTENTIALLY the USSR was stronger. those. the Germans expected to win the war as quickly as possible, using the surprise and experience of their troops.
          3. Brother Sarych
            -1
            12 November 2012 13: 55
            Do not write nonsense, it was not about that!
          4. Beck
            -3
            12 November 2012 15: 32
            Quote: Sakhalininets
            And about the gouging. So whose flag did the Reichstag adorn?


            Here they told me the minuses here as if I am advocating for the Verkhmacht. I just urge to be objective. VICTORY over a strong enemy is more worthy than over a weak one. They shot down German aces for whiter than 100 aircraft - shot down. Moreover, praise to our pilots that they won. What sense is proud of the victory over the Mongol pilots. Captain Whitman defeated 17 English tanks in one battle - astonished. The higher the victory of our tankers near Kursk.

            My father fought has four military orders and four military medals, not anniversary, and he and all his friends, front-line soldiers did not want the training of German soldiers. They said the enemy was strong, but we defeated him. And who says that even at the beginning of the war our troops did not show resistance.

            There is nothing to do with hat-making. Our fathers and grandfathers defeated the strongest enemy, and not some kind of mess.

            Put more cons if you do not want to admit it. A simple example. Roughly 2 million people died in WWII. Germans 50 million plus three million of their allies. It turns out 7 million killed 10 million. This must be able to fight. And so we defeated such an enemy.
            1. 8 company
              +1
              12 November 2012 15: 44
              Quote: Beck
              VICTORY over a strong enemy is more worthy than over a weak one.


              All right, I support. Before the war, too, the cries were higher than the roof - yes, we are the coolest of all ... we’ll push the hedgehogs, we’ll fight in foreign territory and with little blood! Then I had to go to the Volga and from the Volga - back and forth and all with great blood.
            2. +4
              12 November 2012 15: 50
              Quote: Beck
              Roughly 2 million people died in 50MB. Germans 7 million plus three million of their allies. It turns out 10 millions killed 40 millions.

              And how many of these millions are civilians?
            3. +3
              12 November 2012 15: 58
              Quote: Beck
              Our fathers and grandfathers defeated the strongest enemy, not some

              you just say that you won exclusively by throwing hats
            4. +3
              12 November 2012 16: 22
              Quote: Beck
              It turns out 10 million killed 40 million. This must be able to fight. And so we defeated such an enemy.

              these numbers are dangerous, especially if a person cannot think and count, you need to compare military losses and not everything
              1. Beck
                -3
                12 November 2012 16: 44
                Vasilenko

                quote = igordok] And how many of these millions of civilians? [/ quote]

                Well, I do not know the ratio. Let's take half half. 3,5 German civilians, 20 million remaining civilians. Again comes out 3,5 million German soldiers to 20 million coalition soldiers. Or you can take any other ratio.

                [quote = Vasilenko Vladimir] you just claim that you won only by throwing caps [/ quote]

                Won by dedication, heroism, full dedication. And also the fact that the victory was given by the great losses of our army. Another factor of victory is the vastness of the territory. We could retreat to the Volga.

                [quote = Vasilenko Vladimir] these numbers are dangerous, especially if a person does not know how to think and count, you need to compare military losses and not everything in a row [/ quote]

                I already gave the answer at the top. Or do you assume that the Germans did not have any civilian casualties.

                Win at 45 with all your exertion. Defeated the strongest enemy. And there is nothing destructive of the enemy to belittle our VICTORY.
                1. +2
                  12 November 2012 19: 47
                  Quote: Beck
                  Well, I do not know the ratio. Let's take half half

                  then before you speak, find out what it means "let's take half" and let's take a third or 4/5
                  Quote: Beck
                  And also the fact that the victory was given by the great losses of our army

                  I repeat once again compare military losses
                  Quote: Beck
                  Another factor of victory is the vastness of the territory. We could retreat to the Volga.

                  no one argues with this in my opinion
                  Quote: Beck
                  Or do you assume that the Germans did not have any civilian casualties.
                  where does the civilian casualties
                  Quote: Beck
                  But in the field who commanded the fronts. And after the repressions of 37 years, battalion commanders commanded regiments and divisions.

                  you are a strange "analyst" at first you say that the generals were not the same as later, when you are pointed out to you the absurdity of such statements, you smoothly move to the lower echelons, well then try to explain how the repressions passed the border troops and the Navy
                  1. Beck
                    -2
                    13 November 2012 09: 34
                    Vasilenko.

                    1. I pointed out that in Germany there were casualties. And you want to count only our losses.

                    2. That you compare. If you know why not post the numbers? Then we'll see if these figures correspond to your statements.
                    Example. In the Berlin operation was put 300 thousand Soviet soldiers. And this is on the eve of Victory. Marshal Konev was the first to break through to the southern outskirts of Berlin, offering to encircle Berlin and take his garrison to death. Well, a month later would be Victory. So no, it was necessary, according to the Soviet habit, to report to the holiday, k! May. Such losses are justified in the defense of Moscow, Stalingrad, but not in the capture of Berlin.

                    3. You that specifically confuse the issue. When I bring the general losses, you speak to me about military losses. When, in general terms, I want to separate military losses from civilian casualties, you tell me what the peaceful losses have to do with it. It is not good to juggle. So you yourself demand numbers from me, I give the general ones (we can’t keep all the statistics in our heads). Now I ask you to bring me the figures of the losses of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army. Then we'll see if your numbers are true or ridiculous.

                    4. The middle link of the Red Army I cited for example. Really it was not clear. You, that clings to nothing. And the incompetence of Voroshilov, the everyday one, Kulik remains in force and will remain for all time.
                    I actually began to bother your demands from a position of snobbery. Ask a question - explain how the repression passed the Navy. They themselves should not ask a question, but if you have data then upload it. And then on the basis of these data and say - here it was.

                    I don’t ask you questions. I explain as much as I can.
                    1. +2
                      13 November 2012 10: 12
                      Quote: Beck
                      You that specifically confuse the issue. When I bring the general losses, you speak to me about military losses. When, in general terms, I want to separate military losses from civilian casualties, you tell me what the peaceful losses have to do with it. It is not good to juggle. So you yourself demand numbers from me, I give the general ones (we can’t keep all the statistics in our heads).

                      you have not yet instilled a single figure other than your inventions, you can’t keep in mind use no
                      Quote: Beck
                      The middle link of the Red Army I cited for example. Really it was not clear. You, that clings to nothing. And the incompetence of Voroshilov, the everyday one, Kulik remains in force and will remain for all time.

                      to be honest, your "average" perception is already tired, in such matters either exactly with names and examples, or neither
                      Quote: Beck
                      I don’t ask you questions. I explain as much as I can.

                      you haven’t explained anything yet, you are sorry to stupidly put out stamps not confirmed by either numbers or examples, and as soon as figures or historical facts are put to you, you immediately jump to another question
                      1. Beck
                        -3
                        13 November 2012 11: 17
                        Vasilenko.

                        Well, if it came to words - stupidly, tired, then there’s no sign to talk further.

                        All to you.
                      2. +1
                        13 November 2012 13: 42
                        so you don’t give numbers
                    2. vyatom
                      0
                      14 November 2012 16: 57
                      Repression passed the Navy. It was just luck. Well, they did not communicate with Tukhachevsky, Blucher, etc.
                      1. 0
                        14 November 2012 17: 45
                        and the troops are guarded ?!
                        but about Tukhachevsky, wouldn’t you think that if there were radio-controlled planes in 41 tanks and boats, we would be in Berlin in August ?!
                        moreover
                        Air Force discharged 1205 arrested 285
                        Navy discharged 705 arrested 171
                        so your calculations with numbers do not fit
          5. +2
            12 November 2012 15: 58
            Sakhalin good night, the review is correct, but the bad luck is given to the boys bare numbers, without giving details, and those questioned about the skill of our pilots. This is a real Goebelsian trick. Although it would not hurt to remind you that Hartman was shot down 7 times, and Pokryshkin and Kozhedub never once.
        2. +1
          12 November 2012 13: 14
          and now please the same thing, but in numbers
        3. +2
          12 November 2012 14: 34
          Quote: Beck
          at least by the fact that they conquered all of Europe. Gouging can not do it.

          Somehow you are very free to handle logic.
          Such an impression for you, there is only one imperative:
          "There are two opinions: mine and wrong"

          wink
          1. Beck
            -3
            12 November 2012 15: 50
            Quote: Cynic
            As that you very freely with logic apply. Such impression for you there is only one imperative: "There are two opinions: mine and wrong"


            What is free? And who, if not the Germans, in 1941-43 kept under their boot all of Europe. Who is the answer? Poles, English, French?

            My opinion certainly exists and there are a bunch of other opinions. And then there is communication in order to come to an agreement, to find an average or to stay with your own. The wrong opinion is your words, not mine.
            1. +2
              12 November 2012 16: 58
              Quote: Beck
              What is free? And who else but the Germans kept in 1941-43

              Ehehe.
              But who argues.
              I think you know the riddle of Achilles and the tortoise? And the famous Raikin reprise about tailoring a suit?
              What common ?
              But there is one thing in common, if you look discretely, then everything is normal everywhere: Achilles will not catch up with the turtle and the buttons are sewn well on the suit, but if you look at everything together ?!
              So are your comments, each individually
              Quote: Beck
              communication, to come to an agreement,

              and together
              Quote: Beck
              Article, echoes of Soviet propaganda.

              Quote: Beck
              So against the Germans all allies fought only by numerical superiority of forces. Including the Soviet armed forces

              It was said "The devil is in the details."
              So it is: the Devil is in the details, the little things, the shades. He is a master of reformulations, double meanings, double standards.
              Here vyatom with his direct statements is absolutely clear to everyone, and you ...
              As said
              "God, save me from such friends! I will somehow get rid of enemies myself."

              bully
              1. Beck
                -2
                12 November 2012 17: 50
                Zinnik.

                What are you piling up here. All my posts to one. Do not belittle the qualities of a strong enemy, thereby belittling your VICTORY. Not fought with African tribes, but with a powerful opponent. Which had good soldiers.
                1. +1
                  13 November 2012 20: 07
                  Beeku.
                  Quote: Beek
                  What are you piling up here.

                  But why doesn't anyone really like it?
                  You again try to confirm your controversial vision of history using sophistry.
                  Quote: Beck
                  Do not belittle the qualities of a strong enemy

                  Specifically: How, Where, When?
                  1. Beck
                    -1
                    14 November 2012 09: 48
                    Zinnik.

                    What is the truth?

                    Quote: Cynic
                    Do not belittle the qualities of a strong enemy Specifically: How, Where, When?


                    In the article. There is some crying, as Hartman shot down for 300 aircraft, and ours only 62. This is a mess.

                    "And really, where did such a figure as 352 victories of Hartman in air battles come from? Who can confirm it?"
                    (You can also irresponsibly declare - who can confirm Pokryshkin’s victories).

                    "From this, the first conclusion should be drawn: our pilots were credited with really shot down planes. The Germans - aerial victories, sometimes not even leading to the destruction of an enemy plane. And often these victories were mythical."

                    “Moreover, the entire aviation community has long known that historians took this figure from Erich Hartmann’s letters to his bride. So the first question arises: did the young man embellish his military achievements?”
                    (Well, what is this? In what letter? Maybe in where he talked about 50 airplanes? Or how?)

                    “The Germans, by the way, and the Americans, did not need confirmation of ground troops. The pilot could fly in and report:“ I shot down the plane. ”The main thing is that the film machine gun at least fixes the hit of bullets and shells on the target. Sometimes this made it possible to gain mass "Points" "
                    (See the German pilots reporting form on this page).

                    I consider this to be a belittling of a strong adversary, and, as a consequence, a belittling of our victory. It turns out that we did not defeat the strongest aces of the Luftwaffe, but the bouncers and scribes.
                    Let Hartman, for propaganda purposes, be credited with 50 downed planes, but 300 remain. We also had propaganda.

                    What? Wrong again? So minus the crowd. You only have this good and it turns out in a fit of cheer-patriotism.
        4. +3
          12 November 2012 14: 48
          [quote = Beck] all allies fought only by numerical superiority of forces. Including the Soviet armed forces [/ quote]
          And what was the strength of our military near Moscow, Smolensk, Mogilev, Sevostopol, Stalingrad? And the Wehrmacht’s weapons were better, but ........... [quote = Beck] Wehrmacht professional is undeniable, even if they conquered all of Europe. [/ Quote]
          Not surprised how they could defend their land if] Join the battle only if there is numerical and technical superiority. [/ Quote]
          1. Beck
            -3
            12 November 2012 15: 46
            Alexander.

            Our troops before the war had an advantage both in manpower and equipment. But concentrating the troops in the direction of the main attack and strategically leading them is another matter. This is the competence of the generals. And our troops under the command of Budyonny, Voroshilov, Kulik and others like them retreated. So far, they have not been replaced by a new galaxy of military leaders trained at the academies - Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Konev and others.

            Our strategists overlooked the 1942 campaign. The Germans hit in an unexpected direction and reached the Volga. And in all battles, our troops ultimately outnumbered the German in numbers. And in the second half of the war, the Germans had no numerical advantage anywhere.
            And near Moscow and near Stalingrad, our concentrated superior forces ..
            1. +2
              12 November 2012 16: 24
              Quote: Beck
              So far, they have not been replaced by a new galaxy of commanders trained in academies - Zhukov ....

              Do not remind who headed the headquarters gene since January 41?
              1. Beck
                -4
                12 November 2012 16: 53
                From January 1941 to July 1941 Zhukov. But in the field who commanded the fronts. And after the repressions of 37 years, battalion commanders commanded regiments and divisions.
        5. xan
          +1
          12 November 2012 16: 19
          there are many examples in the war, including in the year 41, when they fought not by numbers, but by skill
          there were much fewer people who knew how to fight than those who were not able to
    2. Lech e-mine
      +6
      12 November 2012 11: 38
      [hide] [/ hide]Article, echoes of Soviet propaganda.
      I do not agree. Pokryshkin and KOZHEDUB shot down not at all yellow-handed chicks.
      The German aces tried not to risk getting a bullet from them - this is NO SHOW on a SOVIET propaganda.
      1. Beck
        +1
        12 November 2012 11: 55
        Quote: Leha e-mine
        Article, echoes of Soviet propaganda. I do not agree. Pokryshkin and KOZHEDUB knocked out not at all yellow-chicked chicks. German aces tried not to risk getting a bullet from them - this is NOT a chance you can hang on to the SOVIET POPPAGANDA.


        I commented in the sense that belittling an adversary is an echo of propaganda. What can not belittle the strengths of the enemy. From this diminish the very victory over the enemy.

        The German pilots were strong and mastery and praise Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and our other asses that beat these professionals.
        1. +2
          12 November 2012 13: 17
          you said what you said, namely, that we won exclusively by the number
          1. Brother Sarych
            0
            12 November 2012 14: 02
            Not only in quantity, but including - almost all the time we had a numerical superiority, and it was not always wisely used ...
        2. dmb
          0
          12 November 2012 17: 41
          The motives for your comment are correct. But in my opinion the article is not about that. It seems to me that her key phrase is school notebooks describing Hartman's "exploits". Be honest, you have read the article to the end. I personally don't. But I did not do this because for me the feat of my people does not need proof. Will a student read this article? After all, more convenient proofs are given to him on a notebook. You can talk as much as you like about the echoes of Soviet propaganda, but isn't it for propaganda in Hartman's notebook, our Victory was won solely thanks to the second front, and Bandera, not a servant of the Nazis, but a national hero? Everything has its time. This is me about the age and experience of the search for historical justice.
    3. vyatom
      -11
      12 November 2012 12: 22
      Strongly disagree. It was the British who were able to turn the tide of the war in the Mediterranean: destroy the Vichy fleet, inflict a serious defeat on the Italian fleet, and on the zetas and Germans. The British are quite serious guys. You would definitely be spread in turnips.
      1. Brother Sarych
        0
        12 November 2012 14: 03
        They didn’t break anything! The Germans did not have further strength to drive them with a wet rag, here the Americans pulled themselves up with all their might ...
      2. +1
        12 November 2012 15: 20
        Quote: vyatom
        Strongly disagree. It was the British who were able to turn the tide of the war
        The British are quite serious guys. You would definitely be spread in turnips.

        As there
        A Cossack ... mishandled!
        1. vyatom
          0
          14 November 2012 17: 00
          And on ipal?
          The course of the war in the Mediterranean,
      3. 0
        12 November 2012 15: 44
        Quote: vyatom
        Strongly disagree. It was the British who were able to turn the tide of the war in the Mediterranean: destroy the Vichy fleet, inflict a serious defeat on the Italian fleet, and on the zetas and Germans. The British are quite serious guys. You would definitely be spread in turnips.


        laughing laughing laughing And how did the French fleet standing in Algeria interfere with someone? When the French moved to Marseille their Mediterranean fleet, which survived after the Catapult, the risks that these ships could start a war for Germany became many times more, and in fact, what did they defeat? They ruined the battleship as ancient as a mammoth in Merce .... so from this battleship the sense in the battle that was modern at that time was like from a club before a machine gun. Italians yes laughing these are terrible fighters ... brave and hellish are terrible in battle .... such gas attacks give when they flee from enemies that no one could catch .... they almost died out of the stench laughing
        We saw these pocket fighters laughing trash and not fighters ...
        1. Brother Sarych
          -3
          12 November 2012 16: 20
          Do not write nonsense!
          The fleet of the French was quite powerful and really posed a threat!
          Have you often encountered Italians in battle? The hero of the couch ...
          1. 0
            12 November 2012 16: 38
            Where am I to such a great couch strategist and what kind of person are you ... Well, judging by the aplomb, at least a gentleman of the Order of the Holy Epiphany of all degrees ...
            Well, answer your passage to whom the French fleet in Merce threatened? And how increased was the risk that, after the transfer of all the most valuable and combat-capable ships to Marseille, this fleet would be in Hitler’s hands?
            And you go every day the Italians are in a frantic rage ... we speak for WWII .. so in that war the Italians set their achievements only in speed races .. but otherwise they didn’t do very well.
            1. Brother Sarych
              -1
              12 November 2012 16: 50
              What ships were in Merce? And how much did it take? And remember what rustle even a single ship raid made - almost the entire fleet of the metropolis was chasing Bismarck, almost half a fleet was going for pocket battleships!
              The Italians drove the British, and we had to smash them on the Volga - yes they were with the Germans, not alone, but the facts are facts!
              1. 0
                12 November 2012 17: 12
                Quote: Brother Sarich
                And remember what rustle even a single ship raid

                Exactly .
                What, does Grand Fleet seem there? Great and terrible?
              2. -1
                12 November 2012 17: 17
                You are not from Tel Aviv for an hour to throw a question to the question .... well, if you don’t know, I’ll tell you. In Mersey, the French had 2 battlecruisers Dunkirk and Strasbourg, 2 old battleships (Brittany and Provence - both essentially antiques that do not pose a serious threat to modern battleships), 6 destroyers and several shelves and a trifle or auxiliary.
                So, Strasbourg and Dunkirk went to Marseille, though the Dunkirk shaved damaged and he went to France in 1942. Brittany exploded, Provence drowned in the port. And as far as I remember, one destroyer was drowned. So, in essence, the British operation ended in zilch, the ships representing a real danger went to France.
                By the way, the French before Catapult did not give a reason for attacks. They took their ships in a colony to which the Germans could not reach, and guaranteed that their ships would not fight for the Germans, but they were also impudent to spoil from the undergrowth.
                The Italians))) read how these cat eaters fought in Russia, the Italian army was less combat-ready than the Hungarians and Romanians. If you have facts to the contrary, bring them, otherwise you will be raining with questions about how you will put them on the drive, and you yourself will not answer in return.
                1. Brother Sarych
                  -3
                  12 November 2012 17: 34
                  Far from zilch that operation of Catapult ended! Almost the largest battle of surface ships actually in that war ...
                  Antiques - antiques, if it were squadron battleships, and there were no dreadnoughts here, and the survivors didn’t go very far ...
                  Well, how did the Italian army fight? If she fought on the Volga? And the Romanians and the Hungarians were about the same ... And we had to run from them, not only from the Germans - so you shouldn’t throw hats here ...
                  1. +1
                    12 November 2012 17: 59
                    The Italian divisions, as occupation or auxiliary forces, were scattered throughout Greece, the Balkans, France, and North Africa.
                    The Germans did not take seriously their Italian allies. It is known that Mussolini learned about Hitler’s decision to attack the USSR just a day before the invasion. In 1941, the Italian Expeditionary Force was thrown onto the Eastern Front, which in August 1942 was replenished and turned into an army.
                    The Italians ingloriously ended their “Eastern Campaign”: during the battle of Stalingrad, in the fall of 1942, the 8-th Italian army took up positions on the Don River (a section about 250 km), north-west of Stalingrad. In December 1942 - January 1943 the Italian army was actually destroyed during the offensive of the Red Army - more than 20 thousand were killed, 64 thousand were captured, those who were able to withdraw were completely demoralized.
                    Doesn't look like a miracle army.
                    1. Brother Sarych
                      -1
                      12 November 2012 18: 10
                      And who called them miracle heroes? But ours were killed, and not ours ...
                      1. Kshatriy
                        -2
                        12 November 2012 19: 36
                        Quote: Brother Sarich
                        And who called them miracle heroes? But ours were killed, and not ours ...

                        The coachman's son ----- OO nengi amin geski jalab kutak turade "" itzhak "sade ski absa !!! ...... l
                        Amiable descendant of a coachman ..... Sit an illiterate man - Read comics and sniff in two holes ..... I completely forgot
                        "The cuckoo praises the Rooster,
                        For praising the cuckoo "..... !!!!!!!!!!!
                      2. Brother Sarych
                        0
                        12 November 2012 19: 57
                        Itaraman ...
                  2. Kshatriy
                    -2
                    12 November 2012 19: 06
                    Quote: Brother Sarich
                    And the Romanians with the Hungarians are about the same ... And we had to run from them too,

                    You are a cockerel --- a dear descendant of a coachman and a cook, don’t get on ours !!!!! I remember the stories of eyewitnesses about Romanian soldiers in the winter of 1942, when these gypsies were on the other side of the Dnieper ..... (take an interest how many entih warriors, the German gendarmerie, fuck for looting the population, shot ????)

                    Quote: Brother Sarich
                    not only from the Germans

                    My dear ..... I won’t wait until you learn to speak (well, at least a little) the Russian Language ..... you are our German ...... (German --- dumb, not understanding the Russian language). .......
                    1. Brother Sarych
                      -1
                      12 November 2012 19: 29
                      Don't worry, I'm not going to cling to "yours" - neither to punitive fascist henchmen, nor to any pseudo-Aryan pigeons ...
                      Damn, got it, a brahmaputra unfinished, "protector of the weak" - but in fact a cradle, the most despicable louse among vagrants ...
                      1. Kshatriy
                        0
                        12 November 2012 20: 05
                        Quote: Brother Sarich
                        Damn, got it, a brahmaputra unfinished, "protector of the weak" - but in fact a cradle, the most despicable louse among vagrants ...

                        A descendant of a coachman, a man of unknown nationality ---- Learn to express clearly your thoughts in Russian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                  3. 0
                    13 November 2012 02: 13
                    Quote: Brother Sarich
                    Far from zilch that operation of Catapult ended! Almost the largest battle of surface ships actually in that war ...
                    Antiques - antiques, if it were squadron battleships, and there were no dreadnoughts here, and the survivors didn’t go very far ...


                    Oh well ... and the boys didn’t know .... it wasn’t a battle, it was an unjustified and mean attack in the style of Britons. The biggest battle was stitching at the Pacific Theater.
                    Regarding the battleship of the drowned French antiques, by the way, they were not far away from the battleships that Provence and Brittany in 1940 were ships posing a greater danger in battle for their crews than for the enemy. The trough is at the level of our "Ganguts" in terms of armament and survivability. By the way, the survivors left normally, where they went there and came to their main base on the Mediterranean Sea. And where they actually still had to go.
                    As the Italians fought, they fought powerfully. It is a pity that everyone who went with Hitler to Russia did not fight like that, their grandfathers would have survived that war more.
                2. vyatom
                  0
                  14 November 2012 17: 06
                  I agree with brother Sarych. Sakhalin is inadequate. He suffers from hatred and lack of respect for either the enemy or his ally. How it ends we all know.
            2. vyatom
              0
              14 November 2012 17: 03
              Sakhalin, do not make people laugh. If the French were not a threat, then the British would not have destroyed him right in the port. And to blame them, well, stupid at least. They controlled the entire Atlantic and the Mediterranean Sea. And the empire was created in due time from now to now.
              I have been to England many times, serious guys, but they treat us well and with respect.
        2. vyatom
          0
          14 November 2012 16: 59
          Well, you’re stupid, they’re all like that. The French fleet could be used by the Germans. Then everyone had no fun. because their fleet in the Mediterranean Sea exceeded the entire Soviet in combat effectiveness.
    4. +4
      12 November 2012 13: 13
      excuse me, but you’re wrong (not that the enemy was strong with this, just no one argues), the general correlation of the loss between us and the Germans with their allies on the eastern front indicates just the equality of forces and that no one did not throw
      1. Beck
        -4
        12 November 2012 15: 52
        Vasilenko.

        General figures. Our losses in the Second World War are 20 million people. German 7 million people.
        1. +2
          12 November 2012 16: 26
          learn to analyze numbers, this topic has already been discussed enough
        2. Kshatriy
          0
          12 November 2012 19: 28
          Quote: Beck
          General figures. Our losses in the Second World War are 20 million people. German 7 million people.

          Beck - respected Vasilenko cites the figures of the losses of the German army (Wehrmacht) .......... well, no one took into account the "German" losses ... Any gypsies ....... (I can to the uneducated B . With such a pearl poke in the eyes ... but not for you .......)
          1. 0
            12 November 2012 22: 07
            Quote: Kshatriya
            Any there gypsies ......

            Romania
            more than 400 aircraft (total in the Air Force - 672)
            The Romanian armored forces on June 22, 1941 consisted of 126 R-2 tanks (Czech LT-35 of a special modification, at that time a very, very decent machine), 35 light R-1 tanks (as part of motorized regiments of cavalry divisions); in addition, there were 48 cannon and 28 machine gun Renault FT-17s in reserve. Plus, in the Romanian armored forces were included 35 Polish Renault R-35 tanks, interned in 1939.
            So, as the reader can be sure, the Romanian army was not at all as helpless and weak as it is sometimes presented in various kinds of “historical” literature!
            The Romanians fought against us until September 1944, constantly holding military contingents of 180.000 - 220.000 bayonets and sabers on the Eastern Front

            Hungary
            Hungary declared war on the USSR on June 27, 1941, after a "strange" raid of unknown planes on the city of Kosice (formerly Hungarian Kashsha). Five brigades (sometimes called “light divisions”) were sent to the front, with a total of 5 thousand people, 44 guns and mortars, 200 tanks, an air group of 189 aircraft, which included Kaproni Sa.48 and Junkers-135K bombers, Fiat CR.86 and Re.42 fighters, Hungarian Re-2000 fighters reconnaissance - Heinkel-2000 and WM-46 short-range bombers, Heinkel-21R, Heinkel-111 and Junkers-70K long-range reconnaissance and bombers.

            Finland
            206 first-line combat aircraft - 159 fighters, 22 bombers and 25 scouts and seaplanes
            under the gun was 560 thousand people.
            at sea - they sunk 3 gunboats and patrol boats, 2 submarines, several torpedo boats of design bureaus

            Italy

            62.000 people, 1030 thousand guns and mortars, 60 tanks, the air group consisted of 83 aircraft, including 50 MC.200 Sayetta fighters — their speed and armament were better than those of the I-16 and I-153, although and slightly worse than the “twinks” and “yaks”. The IRGC became part of the 11th German Army, then was in the 1st Panzer Group and the 17th Army
    5. vardex
      +1
      12 November 2012 13: 51
      Soviet pilots-proved that they are the most obviously flying worse than German cars + the task of Soviet fighters is cover-escort. The Germans are mostly free hunt. But when ours began to use the tactics of free hunting, then it turned out who is who
    6. Brother Sarych
      -2
      12 November 2012 13: 54
      Like 50 sorties had to be made, then you can not fly - especially since the situation allowed ...
      1. Brother Sarych
        -1
        12 November 2012 16: 16
        I didn’t understand - but how many sorties did your allies have to complete?
        The figure of the relative losses during the raids was taken, slightly increased and it was determined that so many sorties were enough so as not to tempt fate anymore ...
    7. majorlnb
      +1
      12 November 2012 15: 22
      The training of German pilots at the beginning of the war was higher. Nobody argues with this. But the very system of accounting for combat sorties of German pilots and the organization of combat work in case of any "complications" in the successful march of the German machine led to one result - defeat! They were sentenced in advance. And there was no chance. The very command of the Luftwaffe contributed to this by their actions. Why was the Order on the procedure for recording combat missions in the Red Army Air Force adopted in 1942? To compel pilots to carry out their duties. Otherwise you won't win the war. And from that moment on, ours took into account only those departures that brought results, i.e. the pilots carried out the task assigned to them! The attack aircraft did not reach the target or could not destroy the target - "failure". Getting ready for a new flight. So they taught pilots to think and think tactically. Therefore, the number of sorties among our aces is not as great as among the Germans.
      It's not so easy with the Americans and the British either. It is the presence of single aces, i.e. pilots who really know how to lead people, fight and organize a tactically competent battle, and not knock down 5 kilos, indicates huge problems in the Air Force. And the events of World War II only confirm this. The British and Americans did not have REAL ARMIES. There is not a single operation in which the British or Americans showed a high level of combat training! The entire Second World War is a series of failures and defeats of these "winners".
      1. Brother Sarych
        -2
        12 November 2012 16: 18
        I have not read such a pile of nonsense for a long time!
        1. +3
          12 November 2012 18: 44
          I have long understood that it’s better to see once

          Now, if you do not like it with the photo http://alternathistory.org.ua/prevoskhodstvo-otnositelnykh-velichin-chast-1
          1. Brother Sarych
            0
            12 November 2012 19: 55
            So what? This snot green fell strategic bombers, each of which had 12 men ...
        2. Kshatriy
          -1
          12 November 2012 19: 41
          Quote: Brother Sarich
          I have not read such a pile of nonsense for a long time!

          And the descendants of the coachman and the cook can already distinguish cleverness from stupidity ..... ("heap of nonsense" --- smart guy into Russian --- translate ?????) ..... a descendant of an incomprehensible people ... ......
    8. +3
      12 November 2012 18: 17
      Dear, prada is always far from idealism. The man brought certain facts and challenge if you can.
      And the facts are such that by the middle of 43, the Germans had lost dominance in the air ... and here are the results


  8. Brother Sarych
    -7
    12 November 2012 11: 09
    You can understand what thoughts the author was guided by, but on the whole, the article personally did not impress me ...
    The heroism of our pilots was nevertheless rather weakly supported by the material and technical base and, even worse, by the art of control over almost the entire duration of the war! It is clear that they did everything they could, but ...
    1. 0
      12 November 2012 18: 01
      Without but. They did everything they could - it was the Germans. And ours did what was necessary for success.
      1. Brother Sarych
        -1
        12 November 2012 18: 08
        In fact, the Germans did everything they could, and ours ...
  9. +1
    12 November 2012 11: 25
    Thank! Competently, specifically and sensibly!
  10. +1
    12 November 2012 12: 20
    Interestingly, is the data on German pilots only for the years of the Second World War, or in general for the years of the Second World War? Agree, a big difference will turn out if their victories were considered "together". And the fact that our pilots shot down so many enemies - so the more glory to them, they coped with very experienced opponents. Article unambiguously +
    1. valiant
      0
      12 November 2012 23: 11
      Quote: Egoza
      Agree, a big difference will turn out if their victories were considered "together".

      Hartman achieved his first victory on November 5, 1942. And this is when the Germans were already being pressed at Stalingrad.
  11. +2
    12 November 2012 12: 31
    Aces pilots of England, the United States and the Soviet Union command and treasured. The leadership of the air force listed thought it this way: once the pilot shot down an 40-50 enemy aircraft, it means that he is a very experienced pilot who can teach dozens of talented young people to master the flight skills. And let each of them hit at least a dozen enemy planes. Then in the sum of the destroyed aircraft it will turn out much more than if they were knocked down by the professional remaining at the front.

    I don’t know how about others, but they tried to “land” the same Rudel many times, so that he would not fly, would not take risks, and would pass on his experience to others. It was with the submariners. Kretschmer and Luta were pulled almost by force to a land position, to pass on experience. So for the Germans, this scheme worked the same way
  12. +2
    12 November 2012 13: 33
    I don’t understand how much you can shoot down planes and lose the war. Hitler is probably to blame.
    And Napoleone, too, all won and won, but in the end lost, mysticism however.
  13. +4
    12 November 2012 13: 37
    Twelve of the most prominent aces of the Soviet Air Force: Alelyukhin, Vorozheikin, Glinka, Gulaev, Evstigneev, Clubs, Kozhedub, Koldunov, Rechkalov, Skomorokhov, Pokryshkin, Shestakov - twice and thrice Heroes of the Soviet Union. The indicators of this magnificent dozen are as follows: 5359 sorties were completed, 1499 air battles were carried out, 669 aircraft were shot down. We translate in a simple form, we get of eight sorties, two lead to a battle with the enemy, one of which is victorious. Once again, we are talking about the best of the best, but even they have seven flights out of eight - in vain!
    In the air forces of Great Britain and the United States, only 19 shot down 30 or more enemy planes. In the Soviet Air Force, there were 91 of these Royal Air Force best pilots — a native of South Africa M. Pattle — 50 wins in nine months. The second most successful was the Englishman D Johnson - completed 515 sorties and shot down 41 German aircraft, that is, he spent 13 sorties on one shot down plane.
    The claimed successes of the best German aces look completely phenomenal. Ten of the best Luftwaffe pilots shot down 2553 aircraft, 231 German pilots shot down 60 or more enemy aircraft - in the Soviet Air Force there were only three pilots with this number of victories (Kozhedub, Pokryshkin, Rechkalov), and not one in the Allied aviation. If you choose 10 pilots from among the best Luftwaffe fighters, we get the following numbers: each shot down an average of 250 aircraft during 860 sorties. In other words, seven sorties have two victories. Hundreds of books and articles have been written about the reliability (or degree of unreliability) of all these numbers. So, in particular, it was repeatedly expressed the opinion that on the Eastern Front, home registrations in reports on the number of victories of aces of the Luftwaffe were not just permitted, but directly encouraged. In support of this opinion, quite convincing arguments were also cited: from psychological (since the summer of 1943, the Germans’s affairs in the East have been getting worse and worse, so we had to maintain the fighting spirit of the continuously retreating troops with “hunting stories” about imaginary successes in the air) to purely practical (the Wehrmacht was retreating, allegedly “shot down” Soviet attack aircraft and fighters covering them fell - or did not fall - on Soviet territory, so there were no and could not be reliable confirmations from ground troops on the number of enemy aircraft shot down). Very remarkable particulars were also noted. For example, in the JG-52 fighter squadron combat logbook for 202 aircraft allegedly shot down by Hartman, the type of aircraft shot down is indicated only in 11 cases - strange negligence for neat Germans, and even shooting from several hundred (or even tens) meters, an experienced ace could probably , determine the type of enemy aircraft ...
    Criticism must be recognized as fair. In the West, the victorious accounts of the Luftwaffe aces grew more slowly, but even there they were larger, incomparably greater than their opponents. So, 12 German fighter pilots who won most of their victories precisely in battles with the Anglo-American allies (Baer, ​​Marsail, Müncheberg, Oesau, Melders, Schroer, Buligen, Galland, Meyer, Rollvage, Wurmkheller, Priller), in total made 5944 sorties and shot down 1486 aircraft. An average of 124 wins for each. Or 8 sorties for 2 victories - just a little less than the aces, who fought mainly in the East ...
    1. Brother Sarych
      -1
      12 November 2012 13: 48
      In any case, if the enemy has more aircraft, then the accounts of those shot down will be large, if the enemy needs to be searched for in the sky for a long time, then you won’t replenish the account ...
      1. Brother Sarych
        -1
        12 November 2012 14: 05
        And what is wrong? Try to refute ...
        1. Kshatriy
          -1
          12 November 2012 19: 49
          Quote: Brother Sarich

          And what is wrong? Try to refute ...

          Why ????? You, the amiable descendant of the coachman and the cook, refute yourself with the envy of a mountain sheep ... (why bother refuting absurdities with such a short-sighted person as you, vomiting at every step !!! ????) )
          "do not throw pearls in front of pigs" ... (I forgot that the Savior is not a decree to you !!!) ..... burn in hell, admirer of Lucifer ..... !!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  14. +2
    12 November 2012 14: 31
    “My tactics were surprise. To rise higher and, if possible, go from the side of the sun ... Ninety percent of my attacks were sudden, with the aim of catching the enemy by surprise. If I was successful, I quickly left, took a break and again watched the situation ... The pilot who saw the other first was already half victorious ...
    Shooting, immediately leave to the side and exit the battle. Hit or not - now think only about how to get your legs off ... ”That is how E. Hartman described his tactics. No miracles of aerial acrobatics. The first he saw, the first he was attacked and immediately left the battle.
  15. +3
    12 November 2012 15: 14
    Just the other day I finished reading the book of the Luftwaffe fighter pilot G. Lipfert "The Diary of a Luftwaffe Hauptmann", where he repeatedly cites the fact of the system of accounting for downed aircraft.
    To offset the "shot down" pilot, it was enough to confirm the fact of "victory" by another pilot. All.
    How many "shot down planes" attributed to such a system of accounting can have all these "famous Hartmans", and even with the widespread among the Germans "free hunt" pair, one can only guess. According to some authors, the registration may reach up to 50% or more.
    The book's finale is also characteristic: until the end of the war, the author's main "sports" count of "shot down" leads to the fact that at the end of the war there are no pilots or aircraft left in the squadrons, and Russian tanks are approaching the German airfields, so there is nowhere to fly away, except to the Americans to surrender to them.
    The bastard knows that the Russians will ask for "his sports score."
    1. Brother Sarych
      -2
      12 November 2012 16: 29
      Well, let's say half is attributed, so what? Wild numbers anyway, for that matter ...
      Are we not assigned? And we are attributed - that’s not the point ...
      Here, they say, our people were in unequal conditions - it was necessary to accompany someone, then just hang over the infantry! And who is happy about it?
      Is the infantry securely protected? Read the memories - raid, loss, raid, loss and so on ...
      We flew to the bombing - almost half did not return, that one, the other, the third! Hunters shot down, shot down anti-aircraft guns ...
      Is this a reasonable use?
      In general, the article made me angry - instead of giving heat to those who extol the Germans and poke our shit, I have to prove something obvious to someone uneducated ...
      I am a patriot, the feats of our ancestors are sacred to me, but I, excuse me, don’t ..
  16. 8 company
    +2
    12 November 2012 15: 25
    A bit of factual material, and even in the article, mainly reasoning and reflection:
    The average number of flight hours per Soviet pilot at the flight school was 20 hours, about the same amount of flight time was added to the troops. With such a low flying time, the overwhelming majority of pilots by the beginning of the war had mastered only the most primitive flight elements: flight in a straight line, in a circle, takeoff and landing. Excerpt from the Order of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR on measures to prevent accidents in units of the Air Force of the Red Army No. 070 of June 4, 1939 "On Aviation Schools":
    "... Increase the independent flight on a combat aircraft in Air Force schools to 30 hours ... Exclude aerial shooting and altitude training from the school curriculum ..."
    It should also be noted that even the ordered raid was not provided for various reasons. According to the doctor of historical sciences F.B. Komal, as of January 1, 1941. Air Force schools and academies were provided with teachers by 44,1%, fuel - by 41,4% of the need, there was an acute shortage of training aircraft - half, or even less of the need. For the entire winter period 1940-1941. each crew of the Kiev Special Military District had only 6 flight hours and only one live-fire flight. In March 1941. the Order of the People's Commissar was issued to increase the number of flight hours in aviation schools to 160 hours, but before the start of the war there were only 3 months and this order could no longer give the desired effect. For comparison: a German fighter pilot in 1938-1941, leaving the flight school, had an average of at least 200 hours of flight time, and in the process of additional training in reserve fighter groups, as a rule, 200 more hours were added to this baggage. Thus, by the time the war with the USSR began, the "average" German pilot exceeded the Soviet one by 6-7 times in the number of flight hours. After the start of the war, the meeting of German fighters with any Soviet aircraft ended, as a rule, in favor of the former. Analysis of the statistics of losses of Soviet and German fighters in 1941. gives the following picture: the ratio is 6,54 to 1 in favor of the German. During June 1941 on the South-Western Front, according to operational reports, the following ratio of losses in air battles was established: for 25 German aircraft - 180 Soviet ones, ours lost 7 times more. That is, the coefficient of the difference in training raids between German and Soviet fighter pilots was practically equal to the coefficient of losses in air battles.
    Thus, it should be recognized that until 1943. the average German pilot in terms of flying skills significantly exceeded the average Soviet. Only by the summer of 1943, when the Soviet pilot training system had seriously improved, and the German one, on the contrary, had sharply worsened due to losses of military personnel and the difficult situation at the front, ours began to hit the air adversary both in the tail and in the mane, as they say.
    1. +1
      12 November 2012 16: 01
      Without further ado, we give a lengthy quote from the monograph of G.V. Zimina "Tactics in combat examples." The author of the book is Marshal, Hero of the Soviet Union, during the war years he commanded a fighter regiment, and he knows what he writes about. He formulates the tasks of fighter aviation as follows:
      “- to shield troops on the battlefield and front-line facilities from enemy aircraft attacks;
      - provide combat operations of other branches of aviation;
      - prohibit the enemy from conducting air reconnaissance;
      - conduct air reconnaissance;
      - to combat the enemy airborne assault forces;
      - destroy ground targets.
      ... During the years of World War II, covering troops on the battlefield and in tactical depth was one of the most important combat missions for fighter aircraft. 47,4% of all sorties carried out during the war years were performed by its front-line fighters ... In the operations of the initial period of the war, the task of covering the troops was mainly accomplished by the continuous patrol of fighters in the air ...
      During the war, our fighters spent 31 sorties on fighting enemy aircraft by the “free hunt” method, which amounted to 330% of all sorties made for cover (that is, only 5,7% of the total number of sorties of fighter aircraft. I recommend reading Mark Solonin "At peacefully sleeping airfields." You can disagree with the author somewhere, but his statistics are quite good.
      1. Brother Sarych
        0
        12 November 2012 16: 39
        Corned beef - and a bad man ... in a word ...
        He really hurts the facts to fit his fantasies ...
        1. Kshatriy
          -1
          12 November 2012 19: 56
          Quote: Brother Sarich
          Corned beef - and a bad man ... in a word ...
          He really hurts the facts to fit his fantasies ...

          I doubt that you aaashsche what thoughts you have ..... !!!!!! You have a cook's son --- any person --- bullshit ...... (only all your thoughts are defined by "wikipedia", "lurkormorie" and the magazine "murzilka" .......) ..... your fantasies are limited --- one straight gyrus of the reptilian brain, and you cannot grasp the facts, because your illiteracy borders on complete idiocy ..... !!!!
          1. Brother Sarych
            0
            12 November 2012 20: 00
            And what, feel better? Aryan unfinished, well, well, come off ...
          2. +1
            12 November 2012 20: 27
            Quote: Kshatriya
            I doubt that you are ...

            Have you tried autotraining?
            Or nдis it like splashing out emotions?
            Emotional discharge so ska-a-at?
            wink
    2. stranik72
      +1
      12 November 2012 20: 15
      In 1943, one of the WWII pilots I knew started a war in the skies over Kursk on LA-5 after a school and training regiment with a total flight time of 50 hours, 9 of them arrived in the regiment after day 1 (some managed to make as many as 2 sorties ) he was left alone. He ended the war with 10 shot down personally and 4 in the group. He did not become a hero of the USSR; he received the Order of Lenin. He treated the Germans as pilots with respect, but without piety.
    3. 0
      13 November 2012 00: 04
      Quote: Company 8
      During June 1941 on the South-Western Front, according to operational reports, the following loss ratio in air battles was established: for 25 German aircraft - 180 Soviet, ours lost 7 times more. That is, the coefficient of difference in training raids between German and Soviet fighter pilots was almost equal to the coefficient of losses in air battles.

      I would also add that the USSR fighters technologically lagged behind the German fighters. And the tactics of air battles in Germany were at a high level. Here are three factors that led to enormous losses of Soviet aviation at the beginning of the war.
  17. +3
    12 November 2012 17: 39
    The one who laughs last is good at laughing.
    At the end of the war, the entire sky of Germany was filled with Soviet aircraft and only a few German ones. This fact is confirmed by the Germans themselves, even though the same "expert" fighter G. Lipfert.
    "The best ace of the Second World War E. Hartman" ended the war in captivity in Russia, where he remained until 1955 restoring the cities destroyed by the Germans.
    This is the result - who fought the best German or Russian pilots. This is the most important fact and should be reflected in books "for children", and not a description of the often exaggerated feats of "German aces".
  18. Alex 241
    0
    12 November 2012 18: 20
    http://liewar.ru/content/view/72/8/1/3/ вот ссылка ознакомтесь кому не лень.

    .......................................
  19. valiant
    +2
    12 November 2012 21: 34
    You can discuss the reliability of the claimed results ad infinitum. The fact remains that the official number of victories in aerial combat for a pilot of any country is a numerical indicator, recalculated with a certain coefficient into the actual number of enemy aircraft shot down. This is not bad and not good, it is a fact. If we, for good reason, cast doubt on the results of the German aces, the same doubts may arise with respect to the Soviet aces and aces of the USSR allies in the anti-Hitler coalition. Accordingly, in any case, there remains a significant gap between the accounts of German fighter pilots and aces of the Allies. Therefore, it makes sense just to understand the causes of this phenomenon, and not to make myths about some special technique of counting downed ones. The reason for the high scores of the Luftwaffe aces lies in the intensive use of the Air Force by the Germans (6 flights a day for one pilot in large operations) and the presence of a larger number of targets due to the quantitative superiority of the allies - there was a higher probability of meeting an enemy aircraft in the sky. The German top ace, Erich Hartmann, had 1425 sorties, Gerhard Barkhorn had 1104 sorties, Walter Krupinski (197 wins) had 1100 sorties. At I.N. Kozhedub was only 330 sorties. If we divide the number of sorties by the number of shots, then the German top aces and the best Soviet fighter pilot get about 4-5 sorties per victory. It is easy to guess that if Ivan Nikitich carried out 1425 sorties, the number of those shot down from him could easily surpass three hundred. But there was no practical sense in this. If you need to perform 60 sorties a day to solve the tasks of covering your bombers, ground troops, intercepting enemy bombers, you can make them dozens of planes, exhausting pilots with six sorties a day, or sixty planes with one sorting a day for a pilot. The leaders of the Red Army Air Force chose the second option, the command of the Luftwaffe - the first. In fact, any German ace did a hard job for himself and “that guy.” In turn, the “that guy” at best got to the front in 1944 with a meager raid and got off in the first battle, and in the worst case he died with a faustpatron in his hands under the tracks of Soviet tanks somewhere in Courland.
    Briefly, the reason for the difference in the scores of the pilots can be explained as follows:
    1) Scale effect, or, if you will, “hunter effect”. If one hunter enters a forest with five pheasants, then he will have a chance to bring 2 – 3 birds home. If, on the contrary, five hunters go into the forest for one pheasant, any skill will result in only one carcass of an unfortunate bird. The same in the war in the air. The number of shot down is directly proportional to the number of targets in the air.
    2) Intensive use of the Air Force by the Germans. Performing six sorties a day with constant movement along the front line to counter crises or conduct offensive operations, it is easy to knock down more over a long period than performing one sortie a day, remaining all the time on the same front line.
    (c) Isaev A.V. "Ten Myths of World War II"
  20. botur2013
    0
    12 November 2012 21: 53
    Quote: Cynic
    Strongly disagree. It was the British who were able to turn the tide of the war
    The British are quite serious guys. You would definitely be spread in turnips.

    I'm afraid to make a mistake, but in my opinion, by the middle of 41, the British had big problems with the supply of hydrocarbons due to the blockade of the islands by German submarines. And the Germans opened the eastern front to save them from inevitable capitulation. So, I doubt that at that time they could infuse anyone.
    1. +1
      13 November 2012 19: 51
      Fear the Almighty botur2013, she’s not mine!
      The source for the post above:
      Quote: vyatom
      Strongly disagree. It was the British who were able to turn the tide of the war in the Mediterranean: destroy the Vichy fleet, inflict a serious defeat on the Italian fleet, and on the zetas and Germans. The British are quite serious guys. You would definitely be spread in turnips.
      .
      Yes about
      Quote: botur2013
      I doubt that at that moment they could infuse someone.

      Here vyatom not about those years, not at all.
      Well angloman vyatom Angloman.
      I’m not afraid of the word, Anglophile !
      laughing
      1. vyatom
        0
        14 November 2012 17: 12
        Cynic, man, I haven’t been an Anglophile. I just don’t like empty idle talk and beating myself in the chest with my heels
    2. vyatom
      0
      14 November 2012 17: 11
      Well it is necessary to argue. There was no serious blockade, as the British had a very powerful and merchant and military fleets. And they did not hold on badly.
  21. 0
    12 November 2012 22: 05
    You don’t envy the Germans .... on the Eastern Front they were forced to fight aerial battles up to 5000m, and on the Western front over 5000m ..... by the way, there’s one thing ... our YAKs and LAs did the Germans according to their characteristics, up to 5000m, and in the western Mustangs and Spitfires they drove better than the Mesers and Foks at altitudes greater than 5000m.
  22. 0
    12 November 2012 22: 55
    "The infantry constantly wanted to see red-star fighters overhead. So our pilots were forced to" hum "over the front line, flying back and forth at low speed and at low altitude. And at this time, German" hunters "from high altitudes only chose another "victim" and, having developed tremendous speed in a dive, immediately shot down our planes, the pilots of which, even seeing the attacker, simply did not have time to turn around or gain speed. " Somehow far-fetched, the desire of the infantry affects the tactics of air combat, i.e. for the sake of this desire, the pilots were substituted for messengers, like gladiators for the entertainment of the public. Article minus. First, Hartmann's victories are a joke in letters for the bride, then just a statement that it was so. What did the author really want to say?
  23. wax
    +2
    13 November 2012 00: 55
    Whose aces are better evidently determined by the fact that they warned their own that Pokryshkin was in the sky to get away, by the fact that by the end of the war they covered up their "green hearts", and ours never covered up their stars, so that if in the sky Hartman, he would never have returned to his airfield.
  24. +2
    13 November 2012 11: 08
    Can you imagine that in Germany or in the States, England, for example, for the younger generation, books are published that glorify the heroism and outrage of Russian pilots who broke the ridge with the vaunted Luftwaffe in World War II? Only in dreams! On the contrary, the world's most powerful media diligently hammered the world that, figuratively speaking, it was the American soldier Ryan, the Anglo-Saxons who defeated Hitler and Russia, it seems to have nothing to do with it. It is surprising that our figures, who are called to take care of educating our young generation in the spirit of patriotism, do not understand this and allow the appearance of trendy and even harmful literature for young people, to a certain extent glorifying the heroes of other countries, their skill as if they were not a Russian soldier, Russian the pilots made a decisive contribution to the victories over fascism. Maybe it’s time to tie up PEPSI generations!
  25. zavesa01
    0
    13 November 2012 12: 49
    I didn’t understand why they attacked Beck. What is he wrong about? WE won, it is indisputable. The enemy was very strong, no doubt. The BEST troops of the Second World War are Russian and German soldiers. German troops easily crushed ANY adversary, but they ran into the Russian army as if in a wall. The same thing happened with our troops. Ask, still thank the gods, the living front-line soldiers for how the German and, for example, the Romanian units fought. Victory MUST go to one of the parties. America ALL Germany financed the war, but made supplies to us under Lend-Lease. When did Britain open a second front? Please note that in World War I, in World War II, Russia and Germany were simply pitted by white and fluffy Anglo-Saxons. The answer in my opinion is obvious. The union of these two states is extremely disadvantageous.
    I do not belittle or exaggerate the merits of any of the parties. In the end, politicians start wars, and a SIMPLE person is at war. As a German pilot said in one SOVIET film: "I don't kill pilots, I just shoot down planes." War is hard work, just in the Second World War our grandfathers and great-grandfathers worked more than the Germans. (Suffice it to recall the work of our rear, and victory is forged in the rear)
    Cheap books on the alleged history of the Second World War were written by those who have nothing to write about their victories. "If you don't have a story, you have to write it."
    So they begin to look for everything that can somehow distort the real facts.
    For ALL time, the Anglo-Saxon countries have shot at least one film in which the USSR would be mentioned (as a country at least making some efforts to defeat Hitler Germany) and Germany (in which the Germans are not idiots and bloodthirsty butchers). NO SUCH FILMS! There is only one conclusion from these films, the USA and the Jewish resistance won the war laughing .
    The Germans, in my opinion, are generally forbidden to make such films, but about the Russians they say unequivocally: "overwhelmed" That is, one - shut up, the other - stupid savages.
    You need exploits - we have them only for the period of the Second World War as much as you can’t type in their entire history.
    You need parts covered in glory - we have no number for them.
    You need heroes - we have their legion.

    To admit this to the Anglo-Saxons means to sign their own insolvency. To argue who is stronger, smarter, etc., we or the Germans means playing into their hands. For in this dispute, truth will not be born, you argue here, so you doubt it.

    Remember the Small Earth, the Battalion of Glory and many others, they did not argue, they simply did their job in which they were firmly convinced. In our disputes with you, it’s stupid to prove to each other who is better, we or the Germans, because they have already proved everything with their deeds.

    PS I'm sorry that is somewhat messy, not a writer. winked
    1. +1
      13 November 2012 13: 41
      Quote: zavesa01
      I didn’t understand why they attacked Beck. What is he wrong about?

      his absolute lack of desire to appeal to numbers and the statement that the victory was solely due to the fact that we overwhelmed the Germans with corpses
    2. vyatom
      0
      14 November 2012 17: 15
      Well, here again, this is servility. Say we and the Germans. The rest is all rubbish. Yes, we also stuck it almost to Moscow. If the British and French had the same territory, they would probably also become heroes. But the British, left face to face with the Germans did not give up, and won the battle in the sky for Britain. Well, at least worthy of respect.
  26. Suvorov000
    -2
    13 November 2012 15: 00
    Yes, Harosha crawl the story, the same Pokryshkin when he flew out, then he flew under such cover, the stump is clear that there were no people who wanted to get kneaded, no one would ever say who was cooler, then everything just came together and everything turned out, and how it got there experience or chance is only the participants know, and they did not tell everything. Honor and eternal memory to the soldiers of the war, thank you, but you can hate the enemy, but you still need to respect
  27. 0
    14 November 2012 10: 16
    "SuvorovOOO", what are you talking about, what kind of respect can there be for the enemy who broke into your country, into your house, killing your loved ones?
    You can respect your opponent in sports.
    In a defensive war, when your house is on fire, when the enemy has set a goal to destroy your people from infants to old people, only one feeling for the enemy should be - hatred and revenge for the murders and attacks on your country.
  28. 0
    16 November 2012 17: 30
    Shame on you! I am a representative of a relatively young generation (children of perestroika), I look at you (your comments) gentlemen officers, and I wonder at the argument, why are you better than schoolchildren ?! Forgive someone offended, but the topic is about a completely different one, and you shout on each other’s head! Set a good example of communication! I put many peers on this site, and what will they see how uncles with mustaches swear !?

    In this thread, I believe that the Germans were not so unprofessional, and the Soviet pilots were praised and honored that they could still defend the sky by sacrificing themselves!
    1. Beck
      -1
      16 November 2012 19: 47
      Quote: Roland
      Shame on you!


      I am ashamed. But so it happened. There are all kinds of restrained and not restrained among us.

      Quote: Roland
      In this thread, I believe that the Germans were not so unprofessional, and the Soviet pilots were praised and honored that they could still defend the sky by sacrificing themselves!


      And thank you for your objectivity. Our fathers and grandfathers did not defeat cowards, bouncers and scribes, but the strongest enemy. And the more expensive the victory.
      1. 0
        17 November 2012 00: 43
        He gave such an answer on the basis of how my great-grandfather told. He did not belittle the Germans in military craft, and did not praise, and like many veterans did not really like to tell details. Briefly: He left as a volunteer in 42, as part of a motorized infantry, in 43 received a strong shell shock, after the infirmary, participates in the assault of the Konigsberg, after which, by the will of fate, he fell into the headquarters of Rokossovsky, then he went through the whole war (I may be wrong) at the headquarters, was awarded many awards For the capture of koenigsberg, for courage ... ... and many more awards I can’t remember right now, I need to ask my father. He finished the war with the rank of corporal. After his retirement, he worked at the plant as a turner (Lianozovsky Electro-Mechanical Plant)! Glory to you grandfather! Glory!
  29. 0
    23 November 2012 19: 47
    In addition to the attributed downed planes by German pilots, I quote from the book of the German author K. Bartz "Swastika in the Sky" -
    "... On October 8, 1944, he (Goering) issued a savage order, threatening each pilot with a tribunal if he returned in an intact car without shooting down an enemy plane. Goering even demanded that if the plane was damaged, the pilot should ram the enemy ".
    What should the pilot do in this case? The natural way out of this situation is to declare another victory by increasing your record hit. A nearby pilot will confirm that he also needs "shot down" ones, otherwise a tribunal.
    This is where the record number of German pilots "shot down" comes from, in comparison with Soviet, British and American pilots.
    1. valiant
      0
      23 November 2012 22: 57
      Germans had big bills by October 1944 (Hartman shot down his 44th plane in August 300th) ... so this option doesn’t roll.
      1. 0
        26 November 2012 08: 38
        This Goering order was not born from scratch. The order characterizes the moral and psychological situation that existed in the Luftwaffe, that system of mental pressure on the pilots that was in Germany.
        Plus to this, add a simplified accounting system for "shot down" that was in Germany, so that everyone, especially the German people, what superhumans they are, what the German Avivation is capable of.
        And "the king was naked" - the German aviation suffered from a lot of shortcomings, which the German aviation historian K. Bartz says in his book "Swastika in the Sky".

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